Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005 at 7:00 p.m.Mayor Clifford Lee presidingPresent: Councillor Terry Bernard Councillor Kim DevineCouncillor Philip BrownCouncillor Danny RedmondCouncillor Ken GillisCouncillor Bruce GarrityCouncillor Cecil VillardAlso:Regrets:Harry Gaudet – Chief Administrative OfficerJoe Coady – Director of Public ServicesPhil Handrahan – Director of Fiscal and Development ServicesDon Poole – Manager of PlanningDeputy Mayor Stu MacFadyenCouncillor Mitchell TweelCouncillor George TrainorDonna Waddell – Director of Corporate ServicesMayor Lee: Members of Council, Ladies and Gentlemen, I call the meeting to order.Tonight’s public meeting is a meeting called in regards to a request to amend…. rezone apiece of land off Acadian Drive. The purpose of tonight’s meeting is for civic members ofCouncil to gain public input into the proposed development. From there, the informationgathered here will go back to the Planning Board where a recommendation will be made toCouncil. In the absence of the Chair of Planning, I’ll call on Councillor Devine, the ViceChair of Planning, to introduce this item.Councillor Devine: Thank you very much Your Worship. As you mentioned, we have anapplication to rezone a portion of the River Ridge Subdivision off Acadian Drive and wehave Mr. Wayne Hambly with us tonight who will, I understand, is going to do apresentation and we will be … we’ll have comments after his presentation. Thank you.Mayor Lee: Just before we go any further, just for the record, the meeting is being recordedso we will ask that anybody who wants to address Council on the issue to identify who theyare and their address for the record.Wayne Hambly: Thank you very much Mayor Lee, Councillors, Ladies and Gentlemen.I’m not quite sure who I’m to be speaking to here tonight so I guess I’ll direct my remarks___ and then will be very pleased to respond to any questions that come from any part of the
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 2room at the end. First of all, my name is Wayne Hambly of Hambly Enterprises. We’re …we operate a company in Charlottetown called PEI Home and RV Centre located on theKensington Road. We’ve been in business there for some 42 years. We operate a numberof divisions – one is the Manufactured Housing Division, Sales and Service. Anotherdivision is Recreation Vehicles, Home Furnishing and Appliances and Residential Rental.Along with the manufactured housing business, we developed over the years a number ofland leased communities. We have … the first one we developed was Parkwood Estates,developed in 1968; Chateau Estates developed in 1973, which is in the community now ofCornwall; the third one that we developed in 1987 was Riverview Estates which is locatedin the Community of Hillsborough; the fourth land lease community that we presently aredeveloping is River Ridge Estates just off Acadian Drive, also in the Community ofHillsborough. This is about a 65 acre piece of land and we’ve developed now about …well, we’re into our second phase of development, but along with our own particular localcompany, we seen in our manufactured housing business, we’ve represented a company inSussex, New Brunswick called Prestige Homes. We’ve been with that company for some35 years. That company has recently been purchased, oh about six years ago, purchased bythe Shaw Brick Group of Companies in Halifax and it comes under the control of ___ of thedivision of Clayton Developments. Clayton Developments, a lot of you may be aware, havedeveloped a number of properties in the Halifax area. Some better known – Clayton Park,Colby Village, ___ Hills and also_____ - a highly respected land development company.Because we’re connected with the Shaw Group, they have partnered with us in the design ofa section of the River Ridge development that we’re doing, we call it phase III, and that isthe design and engineering of phase III, which would be for mini homes. That’s what bringsme … brings us here tonight to talk to you … to ask you to consider that particular phase III.But a little bit about River Ridge … River Ridge was designed to be a distinct, affordableand attractive housing community, a community that would offer affordable housing toresidents of Charlottetown. We want to really emphasize the fact that this is a plannedcommunity, that its … there are conditions in that community dealing with landscaping,with control of the way the community operates and we are developing … I think we’vebeen successful in developing a place that people can call home in a very positive way. So,one of the goals, of course, in developing these communities is to have it fit in with the planof the City Plan and we are committed to reinforcing the values established by the City intheir Official Plan and I’d like to point out just one paragraph: “One of the fundamentalaims of good community management is to ensure that there is an adequate supply andvariety of affordable houses” - an adequate supply and variety of affordable housing for allsectors of the population and I’ll give you just a rundown of what River Ridge Developmentis. The cornerstone is a 56-unit high end apartment complex featuring apartments that startat 1000 square feet and go as high as 1500 square feet, heated underground parking, elevatorservice, all the rest of it. Probably the most advanced residential rental property in the Citytoday of any of the residential rental properties in the City. That is the cornerstone of RiverRidge Estates Development as we speak. Flowing from that we have development, Phase I,a modular-owned land leased community made up of modular homes. The first phase hadsome 24 homes in it. The second phase, I believe, started … now I think roughly about 6homes, we just opened it this spring and if you take a look at the footprint that we see here,both the yellow and the orange, or the darker yellow, presently make up River Ridge Estates
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 3and that is presently zoned as R1S, both colours presently zoning in place as R1S. Kevin,could you take me to the phase section right here. Phase 1 you’ll see down on the bottomcorner in blue, that was the first phase of River Ridge Estates in our land lease community.Phase 2 is the one that’s presently being developed, as I say, 6 or 7 homes in there as wespeak, and what I want to talk to you today about is Phase 3, which you see there outlined inred. Now, what I would like to ask you to consider is moving the darker yellow from R1Sto MH and if we could just take a look at the MH … R1S is single, detached, residentialzone, which will allow single detached dwellings in mostly modular dwellings, communityuses and parks. We want to ask you to consider rezoning to MH, which will allow, again,modular dwelling but the big difference is mini homes, community uses and parks. So if wecould go back, Kevin, just for a minute to the portion that you see in the dark yellow. That’sthe portion that we’re asking to be considered for rezoning to MH from R1S. Let’s justmove ahead a couple of slides there Kevin to …. Now, this is what a typical site plan wouldlook like in MH. You have a double paved parking lot, walkways, you see your mini homeand then you see the landscaping, what have you, that’s on the lot. Now it’s interesting …the only difference between that structure right there and the modular structures that are inR1, in Phase 1 and Phase 2, the only difference is that 16 x 72 is cut in half and the twopieces are put together. It comes off the same assembly line, of the same factory, of thesame plant as the other property. The only difference is the shape. Now, the advantage ofthis over the other is strictly a budgetary advantage. This, because it can come in one unit,allows us to be able to sell it to our client at a lower price than the modular because themodular, of course, is … there’s double frame and there’s more installation charges andwhat have you, but it’s exactly the same home as the other unit. The only difference is theshape of it. So if you took that unit, cut it in half and put it together, you’d have the modularback in Phase 1 and Phase 2. So what we’re asking is to have a portion … and let’s go backagain Kevin to this portion right here, down on the right hand corner rezoned from R1S toMH to allow that style of housing versus the modular style of housing and that’s the crux ofit right there - that style of housing versus the other style of housing. Now Kevin, just takeus through to the ones with the overview of the whole property right here. This red here isthe 65 or so acres that we’re talking about. Now, just where you see this arrow, down in thatarea right there, in that bottom corner, that’s the area that we’re talking about. Now thereason we’re asking for this rezoning in this portion is because right across the road now isour present Riverview Estates made up of exactly the same type of housing. The one on theright has 159 units in it of mini homes. We’re asking to go across the road in that woodedarea there, that bottom right hand corner – so 15 acres, and that’s going to allow us to putabout 50 mini homes in there over time if the zoning changes from R1S to MH. So ladiesand gentlemen, to cut to the chase, that’s the presentation, that’s what we’re here to askCouncil to consider – changing the zoning to allow us to do that. I could respond toquestions Mayor Lee.Mayor Lee: We’ll go to the audience first. Is there anybody in the audience that wants tospeak to the application to rezone the property or ask any questions of Mr. Hambly?Brenda MacNeill: Where are we supposed to stand?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 4Mayor Lee: You can go to the podium or right where you are, wherever you are mostcomfortable.Brenda MacNeill: I guess I just want to make it known that there are several residents in thearea that are …Mayor Lee: Could you just identify yourself for us please?Brenda MacNeil: There are several residents in the area that are opposed to this rezoning.It’s not just perimeter properties. There are at least 470 residents of this communityopposed, with residents from Patterson Drive, Southdale Avenue, Meadowvale Drive,Parkwood Crescent, Glenafton Drive, Fairmount Crescent, Chapell Court, River RidgeDrive, Hunter Lane, Worthington Drive, Westridge Crescent, Glenthorne Avenue, SunsetCourt, Northridge Parkway, Westcomb Crescent and Andrews Court who are opposed tothis. And I say ‘at least’ because there were several residents who were not home when wevisited their home to get their opinion. I purchased my home in that area based on that landbeing R1 zoning. I don’t think it’s fair for City Council to rezone that area to MH … Imean, with the concerns of residents, I think it should be left exactly the way it is. We’renot preventing Mr. Hambly from carrying on his business. He can still put his modularhomes in that area and, you know, his logic of the reasoning behind that area is that it isadjacent to Riverview Estates. It’s also adjacent to R1 property. If the Council were toapprove that request based on that reasoning, then there is nothing to stop a further requestdown the road of future phases of development there because then they are adjacent to amini home park. So I just would like everyone to take that into consideration when you areconsidering the issues here. As well, it’s not just one property we’re talking about here. It’snot a one lot rezoning, it is 54 plus lots I’m sure we’re talking about. No guarantee thatthere wouldn’t be future requests for rezoning of additional portions of that 65 acres. Now, Imean… I know he cannot develop a full 65 acres as a modular … ah, a mini homecommunity because he does already have 26 properties there and he does have an apartmentbuilding but at the same time, there is quite a bit of land left there for future development.There’s also 26 of the lots in Phase 2 of the proposal that are not filled yet either so therecertainly is potential for this to be an even larger mini home park in the future. Mr. Hamblyreferred to the Official Plan. Well, I guess I’d just like to draw your attention to it as well.“The Charlottetown official plan is the product of a planning process which has three simplestages – taking stock of the past and the present, visualizing a better future and settingmeasures in place which will help achieve that vision. Every stage of this process wasdesigned to solicit public participation and incorporate contributions from the residents ofCharlottetown into their Official Plan.” I guess I would just like to reiterate that this is not a.. to stop making this decision now that we don’t want this rezoned. I mean, this has been along process here. A number of years ago back in the early to mid 90s the Community ofHillsborough Park, prior to amalgamation, they spent two years developing an Official Planand zoning for that area and it was R1 zoned. Again in 1998 and 1999 there were severalmeetings that were held comparing the Official Plan for the City of Charlottetown. At thattime the citizens of the community made it clear what they wanted for the area, that R1zoning was incorporated into the Official Plan. Again, we went through a rezoning request
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 5back seven years ago with Mr. Hambly looking to rezone the whole 65 acres at that time fora mini home park. At that time we made it clear that we did not want that area rezoned.We’re clear as well today with the input from the residents in the community that we do notwant this land rezoned. I do have other comments but I’ll let someone else have a chance aswell.Mayor Lee: Is there anybody else would like to respond?Gloria Snow: Hi, my name is Gloria Snow and I live at 41 Hunter Lane. I want to tell youthat I’m really nervous. I don’t … I’m not used to speaking in public so if I get shaky andlose my voice, you’ll know why. But I feel so strongly about this issue that I’m going togive it a whirl. I wish to express my strong opposition to the proposed rezoning plan asrequested by Mr. Hambly. We, the residents of Hillsborough Park, have already voiced ouropposition, as Brenda has said, to a similar rezoning proposal to allow for a mini home parkin this area approximately seven years ago. We do so again and even more strongly. Wegot 470 signatures on the petition that we went around ___ streets to get. Very willinglypeople seemed to be willing to sign … there was approximately 150 people not at homebecause it is summer time and vacation time and .. so we didn’t get some of them. If thismini home park was already established when we built our homes, we certainly would nothave built on the site and I echo that for a lot of residents. It is an entirely different matter tobuild a home where a mini home park already exists and to face, as we are now facing, arezoning of existing land to accommodate a mini home park 11 years after theneighbourhood is established. We, as well as the residents around us, take pride in ourhomes. In the past year, many renovations to enhance property have taken place in the area.Many homes now have new siding, extensions, flowers, etc. as our home reflects for most ofus the biggest financial investment of our lives so it is really important for us to maintain thevalue of it. I know personally of two people who told me that their family was going to buylots on Hunter Lane but did not because they heard a mini home park may be built behindus. I also personally know a developer that has built many nice homes in the area and statesthat he will not build more if this rezoning for mini homes is approved. I feel that thisdecision of one developer, Mr. Hambly, should not encroach on the property values of othercitizens who built their homes to house themselves and enhance the lives of their familiesand the community and I say that with due respect to Mr. Hambly. I have no opposition tomodular homes in the existing R1 zoning. Our main opposition is with the evaluation ofproperty. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind and in many others that our propertyvalues will go down with a mini home park behind us. __________2005 would not give usany guarantee whatsoever that the parcel of land he wants to rezone to allow for a minihome would not be extended in the future. He was asked this question and he said “I can’tdo that”. I feel strongly that ____ request to rezone more land to allow for mini home salesand development. He stated that people who wanted to buy mini homes wanted to live inCharlottetown for the most part and there’s no place to put them. This decision to sell minihomes is Mr. Hambly’s alone and should not impact negatively on regular home owners. Itshouldn’t impact all those residents. I feel that if there is a disagreement that mini homes donot decrease property values, which I have heard that, then I feel that the zoning shouldallow for mini homes to be placed in any vacant lot in Charlottetown in the R1 zoning, even
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 6in the affluent areas. Charlottetown, as far as I’m aware, is the only area to even entertainrezoning for mini home parks at this time and I feel this is because people know that minihome parks devalue property… devalue property values. For example, I have the bylaw forStratford … the municipality of Stratford and #448 says, under the heading of MobileHomes, it says “mobile homes shall not be permitted in any zone”, so that’s right inStratford’s bylaws as far as I’m aware. We need____ in this important matter. I hope thatthis interest of one individual does not override the best wishes of myself and the majority ofHillsborough Park. Thank you.Mayor Lee: Thank you.Mr. Hambly: I’d like a chance to respond to those concerns.Mayor Lee: Sure.Mr. Hambly: But I don’t want to now, when the time is right.Mayor Lee: Can you just keep track of them Wayne and …Frank Murray: Frank Murray of Meadowvale Drive. I’ve been in Hillsborough Parkapproximately 32 years. I was also part of the Planning Board of the Community ofHillsborough Park when the Official Plan was put together and of all the issues that wediscussed over the course of two years plus before we went … the standard legal group thatI’m sure a Planning Board is familiar with in order for a community to have a judicial planpassed through the Legislature. We discussed dozens of issues and debated most of them atsome length, sometimes playing the devil’s advocate myself just to make sure we had allpoints considered. The least contentious issue in the course of two years was the question ofmini home trailer parks in our community. That took less than five minutes for a unanimousconsent by the Planning Board – zero mini parks in the community – and the reasoningbehind that for most people was that traditionally mini home parks, trailer parks, whatever ispolitically correct these days, have traditionally been stand alone communities throughoutthe Charlottetown area and across the Province and the reason for that is that they are a typeof housing, as Mr. Hambly pointed out, targeted to a particular income group and they areappropriate for certain groups. I’ve even torn up leases for tenants because they had anopportunity to buy a mini home and I directed them to Mr. Hambly to do so and re-rentedthe property at some expense to myself. When one has an opportunity to own what onelives in, you should do it, it’s good sound financial planning. However, mini homes in asingle family residential area such as Hillsborough Park has been decided on by theresidents of Hillsborough Park, adopted into the Official Plan, an Official Plan that by theway City Council at the time made a commitment to Hillsborough Park at the time ofamalgamation that our Official Plan would be adopted as is by the City of Charlottetownand therefore we understood that meant the things that we had discussed and planned anddecided upon with the consent of residents over the usual meetings would be the situationfrom then forward. Now we see a request to make a difference and I can understand Mr.Hambly’s point of view and I understand Mr. Hambly’s business. I’m in the building
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 7business for 42 years and if I was Mr. Hambly I would be raising hell and shoving a chipunder it to get those mini homes in there because he stands to make some money and that’swhat he’s supposed to do or if he doesn’t deserve to be head of his company. But that’s notthe question, it is the appropriateness of this development in this particular community and Ibelieve, as has been the situation for over 30 years, this is not appropriate. It lowers values.Mr. Hambly himself, in discussing it at the meeting at Hillsborough Park, the value of hishomes ranges from, he said, $50,000 to $85,000 top end. You’re not going to buy any homein Hillsborough Park for $50,000, nor would you get very much for $85,000. So, he’smentioned, I think the quote was “like housing should be built next to like housing”. Well,homes that are being built now following Hillsborough Park’s Official Plan have had theirlot frontages increased from the 65 feet that was the original plan by PEI Housing in the late60s when this housing development was started, Phase 2 in ’72/’73. Those frontages were65 feet because it was efficient enough to keep the cost of land down because we had to payfor sewer and paving and water and so on but when the Official Plan came, one of the thingsthat we were stuck with was the stigma of ‘you fellas are packed in like sardines, one on topof the other’, these are the comments from greater Charlottetown area and people that woulddrive by. Things like that, when I talk about impression, image, - perception is everythingwhen it comes to the value and cost of real estate and in our Official Plan, we increased thefrontage of the lots that would be in this area we’re talking about, about the entire area, from65 feet to 75 feet. Mr. Hambly, I see even on the manufactured homes, has reduced it from75 feet down to 59 feet and in the case of mini homes, down to 49 feet. Some of the housesin our community are longer than that. It wouldn’t fit on the lot, it would stick out bothends. Now, if we were crowded in before or the perception was, and this lowers values –people’s perception governs value. Having these things ___ the last time I was living in asituation like that I was a construction camp in the Northwest Territories and that’s not thesame as a single residential community. The value of our homes has gone from $65,000 -$70,00 range to the ones that were built by Qualico Homes in the area that’s bordered byWestridge Cresent. Those homes were in the $100,000 range and now we’ve got homesbeing built out there that are in the $150,000 range. Putting $50,000 trailers in next to it on49 foot lots – I don’t even have to explain it to you, it’s inappropriate. So if this Councildecides to vote on this motion and move this change of zoning, it will have done so withoutthe consent or the wishes of the people that they represent in Hillsborough Park, I being oneof them. Thank you.Cindy Williams: My name is Cindy Williams. My husband and I built our home 10 yearsago. We were in the market to build, to buy, to whatever. We did our homework. Wechecked property of the adjacent acreage and we saw it was R1 zoned. We saw a map of thestreets that were going through. We knew we were going to be developed behind our street,we knew that, and we saw the community and how it was going to be projected. We took arisk, we built there. We invested everything to build our house there and then in 1998 wewere faced with this rezoning issue. Well, I can tell you, again, I’m greatly opposed to this.I was then, I am now for sure. I just have a question – what is the date of the PlanningBoard meeting? Does anybody ..Mayor Lee: Councillor Brown, do you have that set up yet?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 8Councillor Brown: What’s that Your Worship?Mayor Lee: Do you have a date?Councillor Brown: No, not at this point in time but it will not be … the next regularmonthly meeting is the first Monday in September.Cindy Williams: Ok, but are we allowed to attend that?Councillor Brown: I’d better check with the Manager because I invited some people to oneof our other meetings and they had to wait out in the hallway, so I’ll check with the Managerand we’ll get back to you.Cindy Williams: Ok and …Councillor Bernard: I think Your Worship… are the meetings not all open to the publicnow?Mayor Lee: No?? They are, yeah.Councillor Bernard: … so they would …?? NoCouncillor Brown: Excuse me, just for clarification Your Worship. The StandingCommittee, which is the Planning Committee, which is a committee of Council, is open tothe public. The Planning Board, because it deals with real estate matters, developmentmatters, those are closed to the public.Cindy Williams: Ok, whether we’re allowed to go to this meeting or not, would we be ableto have a copy of the Minutes of this meeting? Is that appropriate?Councillor Brown: Your Worship?Mayor Lee: Yes, definitely. The Minutes of our meetings are all public.Cindy Williams: … the Planning Board … this meeting, ok. I’m just wondering whatinformation will be supplied to the Planning Board Committee … actually the 10 residentmembers? I’m just wondering will they receive a copy of our petition that you had…Mayor Lee: Yes.
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 9Cindy Williams: They will receive that?Mayor Lee: Yes.Cindy Williams: They will receive that, ok.Mayor Lee: All written documentation will be supplied to members of the Planning BoardCommittee…Cindy Williams: Ok.Mayor Lee: …. and this meetingCouncillor Brown: and this meetingMayor Lee: … and this meeting as well.Cindy Williams: Ok, I was just curious about that because the one … the meeting back in1998, they were not provided with our petition back then which we had …Mayor Lee: I’m surprised at that Cindy but I can assure they’ll receive all the writtendocumentation.Cindy Williams: Thank you.??: Your Worship, I think that the lady was asking is there a meeting of Planning Board thatI believe as a resident can you attend, is that your question?Councillor Brown: Yes … no, I …Cindy Williams: It’s the Planning Board meeting, are we allowed to attend that one.?? YesCouncillor Brown: But in response, because of what happened with the other issue, Iwould … as you recall, as you heard from some people out in that area …?? Unfortunately …Councillor Brown: .. ok, the Manager advised me that Planning Board was meeting, therewould be an opportunity for a public meeting, that took place, so I’ll speak to the Managerand then either Linda Sanderson or the other Administrative Assistant, Connie McGaugh,will get back to you or Brenda MacNeill.Cindy Williams: Ok.
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 10Councillor Brown: Ok?Cindy Williams: Ok, thank you.David MacKenzie: My name is David MacKenzie. I live on Hunter Lane. If you look atfuture phases on the map ___ in front of you, you see a road that goes up … curves up thehill quite nicely beside Phase 3 and it joins with a little stub of the road that goes into what isnow Hunter Lane. When questioned, Mr. Hambly could not give any assurances that thatroad wouldn’t be populated by mini homes if he got a chance to go for rezoning on that. If Ilook out my home, cause I’m right across the road from that little stub of road but this is myhome and look out there .. I’m looking down what could be a very nice road with … and Isaw that map just as you’re seeing it now, when I went to buy my lot and build my house – Isaid that’s going to be a beautiful view. That will be of good value and it will appreciate invalue. If I look out that house… despite how nice that picture looked that Mr. Hambly putup of the mini homes, you’re seeing a front end of a butt end of a little house and that won’tbe nearly as nice a view looking down there if I got mini homes parked in front of there andmy property value won’t be very good … it won’t appreciate, it won’t even stay stable and Ipaid a wee bit more than $150,000 to build my place so I don’t appreciate it at all. I like Mr.Hambly’s business plan. I’ve been a businessman myself in the past. I think Mr. Hamblyshowed himself to be a good businessman. I think actually he’s being badly served by all ofyou and I don’t mean to ___ you. It’s the last thing I want to do because I want you to agreewith what I’m doing but Mr. Hambly has seen a need for mini homes. He would be tryingto… he can see a good opportunity to increase his cash flow in at least three of his businessareas but he knows he can get mini homes sold there right away. That hill will sell off sofast that he’s going to need to go into future phases because he’s going to need more lots formini homes because there aren’t any lots available in the City of Charlottetown at thismoment because in the plan, as Mr. Philip Brown told me at the last meeting, there are noplaces available in Charlottetown for mini homes. It’s not in the plan. I think he saidsomething about in the wisdom of the people at the time it was decided not to do it.Councillor Brown: No, I didn’t say that.David MacKenzie: Something like that. I sent a letter to, I think, most of the people here. Itried to find all the addresses. If we’re going to have mini homes in Charlottetown, then getit in the Plan. If we’re not going to have it in the Plan, do ____ review. Put Mr. Hambly outof his misery, put us out of our misery but if you’re going to have mini homes in the Plan,get the … planners should have your Planning Department work on it, where they shouldgo. Almost every city I’ve visited in North America, you have mini homes sitting rightbeside commercial development. The mini homes I’ve lived in, I could walk across thestreet to the mall. It was really handy. Behind me and well isolated, that’s where theresidential area started. It’s separated – the commercial from the residential. It’ll allow for agreat gradual graduation so you weren’t having property values devalued in residentialbecause of commercial proximity. That is, again, quite often devalued ______communities. So they use them as a buffer and there is very little controversy in those urban
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 11areas when you do it in that fashion. Almost always those mini homes are much like whatMr. Hambly’s present mini home development is – it’s a single gate entry and when it goeson to a major arterial road like it should be and will be in this case I suppose at some point,it’s a controlled intersection. It’s a huge development and will probably have two areas toget in and out of, much like they have in Hillsborough Park right now, and right now inHillsborough Park we have a traffic issue. We have a huge traffic issue. Getting in and outof Hillsborough Park is tough and getting dangerous and I’m sure you’re going to be seeingmore and more of that ____. There’s areas in the… that you could, if you wish… if thisCouncil decided they wanted to make room for a demand that Mr. Hambly has recognizedthrough his business, then do it the way most other communities that have mini homedevelopments and done successfully and with no political controversy or at least minimal_______. Anyway, that’s my comments – one – I’m opposed to this development mostlybecause I’m scared to death of the future phases and what it will do to my property values.Bad enough what Phase 3 would do to my property value. But also at the same time I cancommiserate with Mr. Hambly and his … those people will buy in the City to begin withand will want to work in the City, want to be good citizens and they deserve to own theirplaces. You are … should be allowing for that kind of development but in a really wellplanned way and not helter skelter like it is right now and that’s my own word for it butthat’s how I perceive it. Thank you very much for this.Mayor Lee: Thank you.Brenda MacNeill: I just want to clarify on the Planning Board meeting and when it goes toCouncil and that. You said the first Monday of September is when it goes to PlanningBoard?Councillor Brown: First Monday has been regular meeting Your Worship, regular meetingof ….Brenda MacNeill: Ok, but … regular meeting, so is that when this issue would go forwardto Planning Board or is there going to be a special meeting called prior to that?Councillor Brown: Your Worship, ok, to clarify it. If there is a… if there will be a … ifthere is a plan to have a special meeting Brenda, you will be notified.Brenda MacNeill: But is there a plan to have …Councillor Brown: That’s the question that Mrs. Williams asked – ‘could we go to themeeting’? – so if there is a meeting between now, which is the 11 th of August and the firstMonday, or the first Tuesday actually because the first Monday in September will be theLabour Day so the first Tuesday. So if there’s a meeting in between the 11 th and the firstTuesday of September, you’ll be contacted.Brenda MacNeill: Ok, so are you anticipating that there will be a special meeting called?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 12Councillor Brown: No, not at this point in time.Brenda MacNeill: Ok and so it would go to Council on their regular meeting in Septemberor is it all one special Council meeting?Councillor Brown: This September, this September meeting, if we have a recommendation.Brenda MacNeill: _______Ok, no, I just wanted to make sure that I’m clear on that becausethere was some misinformation provided to me before in that respect so I just wanted tomake sure that ____Councillor Brown: No, I think the information, Brenda, you’re talking about was at lastMonday’s meeting?Brenda MacNeill: No it was ________ information apparently was right. It was theinformation that I received on July 21 st from City Hall Planning Department that wasincorrect.Councillor Brown: You phoned and spoke to one of the Development Officers?Brenda MacNeill: Yes, I did.Councillor Brown: Who did you speak to?Brenda MacNeill: I spoke with Laurel.Councillor Brown: Ok.Brenda MacNeill: And I asked when the …I asked what the process was and I asked whenit would be going to Planning Board. I was told it would be the September meeting. In allfairness to Laurel, she did not know but she asked one of her co-workers and she was toldthe September meeting and then I asked when it was to go to Planning and… or to Councilfrom that and it was the September Council meeting. So then, subsequent to that, we hadthe community meeting in Hillsborough and at that meeting I asked you Philip and you toldme that, no, there was a public meeting scheduled for Wednesday night. There was aPlanning meeting scheduled for Thursday and right after it would go to Council onMonday…Councillor Brown: Correct.Brenda MacNeill: … which was contradictory to the information that I had received sothat’s why I wanted clarification this time.Councillor Brown: Ok.
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 13Brenda MacNeill: Thank you.Mayor Lee: Anybody else like to ….Don Wyns: Don Wyns, I live on Hunters Lane. It doesn’t seem seven years ago but it’sgone by really quick. Mr. Hambly noted that with this___ he’s got an opportunity that hesees but what I’ve seen so far in the River Ridge development that he currently has now isfine and dandy ___ Hillsborough Park. I’m sure he’s making money on that venture. He’sgot lots of acreage there to continue on with it and one question I do have for today is, hasMr. Hambly talked to residents of River Ridge just to get their feelings on this because asclose as we are going to be to this, they’re even closer. You see this little street that juts outfrom .. on to Acadian Drive past Phase 1, that first yellow block is mini home and the lightyellowed block is a modular home. I talked to a couple of people down there who are nottoo pleased with it. There are names on a petition from that area and initially when he metwith those four… a couple, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, there is no one ___ the peopleof _______ Hillsborough Park made a good comment, saying that it seems that Mr. Hamblycan entice or convince six Councillors, this Council, 500 people’s words… 500 people’swords don’t matter. To me that’s not right to look at ....I know he’s got a businessdevelopment plan he wants to through and I think the people of Hillsborough Park electedMr. Bernard for one and we hope that we have support from all of Council in this decision.Mayor Lee: Is there anybody else?Gary Snow: My name is Gary Snow and I live on Hunters Lane too. One of the concerns Ihave about this whole process is the fact that seven years ago when this issue came beforeCouncil, my neighbours and a lot of people in the community felt the need to go and collectsignatures on a petition. That if we hadn’t done that, we wouldn’t have received Council’ssupport and after the meetings were over the issue was resolved, we got that sense fromseveral Councillors that we talked to. My concern is, like, why should we have to do that.My neighbour and myself went down the street for the last week, he’s collecting signatures.Mr. Hambly hasn’t collected any that I know of and my opinion is that he’s the one thatshould have to seek our approval before he even brings it before the Planning Board and itjust doesn’t seem to be. The fact that this is a sizeable portion of our community, and forthis process to be this way, like.. we were notified, I don’t know why we received letters …we’re not within a 100 metres of Mr. Hambly’s development unless you consider that thefuture phases come right behind our house. If that’s the case, then fine, but the wholecommunity should be notified in a case like this because it is a 15 acre development, not onelot, and to me, this is a wrong way to go about things. You should be seeking … Councilshould be seeking input from the whole community. Mr. Hambly should before he’s evenpermitted to come to Council with a resolution like this. So that’s my opinion of it. It justseems to be wrong headed for us to have to do this leg work and feel that if we don’t, we’renot going to win this. I am definitely opposed to this and strongly opposed to it and I justwant to express that opinion. Thank you.Mayor Lee: Anyone else?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 14Frank Murray: If I may Mr. Mayor, I’d reaffirm what Gary is saying. I said I was amember of the community for 32 years and Mr. Hambly is the new kid on the block and it’sa little bit, I think, like going to Rome and telling the Romans how to live. So what Gary issaying ties in with what I’m saying, what Planning Board said, in terms of theappropriateness of this development.Mayor Lee: Is there anyone else?Mary Gallant: I’m Mary Gallant and our home was one of the first ones in the Hillsboroughdevelopment and when we built a home there, we didn’t bargain for mini homes to be .. tobe surrounded by mini homes. I have nothing against mini homes because my brother ownsone on a piece property but when you start getting clusters of them around you, yeah I thinkthat there is a problem. I do have one question though. Who owns the mini home Park offof Riverside Drive? Anybody know?Mayor Lee: Parkwood Estates?Mary Gallant: Yeah.Mayor Lee: _____Councillor Brown: I believe they do.Mary Gallant: That’s ___ for me. I mean, that the other areas where the mini homes aregoing to be … they went down over the years. It might have started off pretty good butthere’s lots of TLC needed in that mini home development there. So, if the rest were goingto go the way that one went on Riverside Drive, I certainly have a problem with it and I wasin the dark until about a few days ago about this planning that was going on and I don’tknow why that people weren’t more informed. I’m very disappoint and I’m certainlyopposed to it.Mayor Lee: Is there anyone else?Sandra Williams: This will be very brief . I am Sandra Williams. I understand ____ HunterLane and I think that you can already tell that we’re all very united on this issue. Myselfand my partner are new members of Hillsborough but we moved there knowing that behindus would be R1 zoning and we moved there knowing that Hillsborough is really trying tomove itself forward to ____ community. We’re trying to rejuvenate the area. The housesthat are going in there new are larger and we’re trying to change the opinion of Hillsboroughand we all want it to be a nice place to live and we’re very united about that and I just wantto say as well that I’m also opposed to a mini home park. Thank you.Mayor Lee: Anyone else? Mr. Hambly?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 15Wayne Hambly: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Ladies and gentlemen, I certainly recognize andappreciate the comments that have been made today and obviously we’re not in business totry to put second class or to downgrade people’s homes in value. But I’d like to make acouple of points I think that deserves being made. All of these houses that were built onHunters Lane and in other areas were built there after Riverview Estates was there, wherewe wanted to be right next to them, and that Riverview Estates wasn’t in contention whenyou were making your decision to build your home on Hunters Lane then. If that was goingto bother your property values and your homes, it was already an existing community ofmini homes, why did you in the world build your homes there if its …Gloria Snow: Because the 64 acres of land was R1 zoned and we thought there would be abuffer…Wayne Hambly: Well, just.. thank you but I just wanted to make that point. Mr. & Mrs.Snow lived in our Riverview Estates for four or five years and thought it was a wonderfulplace to live…Gloria Snow: Yes, I did and ____Wayne Hambly: … and all of a sudden now its… something has happened … anyway, justback on point. The other point is that, and it’s to David’s point and I think he made anexcellent point about housing styles being graduated from one level perhaps through todifferent levels and if I could just show you here … the bright yellow which is right behindHunters Lane and right behind Parkwood Crescent, there are one, two, three, four, five, sixrows of building lots between their property and the property that we’re talking about. I’mtalking about six rows, stacked one on top of the other, coming from their land all the wayover to where the dark orange is. There is a phenomenal … there’s over 900 feet of landbetween that line and our rezoning request. That will allow six deep housing, regularbuilding lots, between that area and this area. I don’t … so, to David’s point, you’ve got R1,you’ve got R1S and now you’ve got MH. We already have MH there, so you can see thegraduated housing if you want to use that particular example, moving in a proper planningmode, going one to the other. We’re not asking to put that dark orange right up behindHunters Lane. I will admit in, whatever it was, four or five years ago when we did go backover for rezoning, we were going to just be one street away from Hunters Lane but nowwe’re six building lots deep away from any other housing and we’re right adjacent to likehousing. So …Gloria Snow: Excuse me Wayne, but if you won’t give us any guarantee .. we’re heretonight again after seven years for a rezoning issue. What’s ... you had Phase 1, Phase 2,Phase 3, and a future phase, if you get one area rezoned, what is our guarantee if you won’tgive it, that you won’t have like houses with like houses again?Wayne Hambly: Well, I guess the first guarantee you have is that this is a process that adeveloper has to go through to get rezoning. It’s not my choice. I may want it but if someCouncil chooses to… sees fit now to favour your resolution whereas I have absolutely no
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 16guarantee whatsoever by us, you’re right. No guarantee for or against the project, seriouslycould be either way.Gloria Snow: But then we won’t have 6 rows of houses in between. We’ll have minihomes in our back yard.Wayne Hambly: Well, you see, right here – if I can make this little red thing work here –that’s the .. right behind Hunter Lane Kevin, yeah, right along there … that’s… I canguarantee you definitely that street and the other side of the street will never be asked to bechanged from its R1S zoning ___. And then you see that big tree line that’s right there.Even if we ever did decide to come back for a rezoning on a future phase, well those treelines… you would still have the opportunity to voice the same opinion you’re voicing thisyear but I don’t know what …Gloria Snow: Wayne, I’m sorry but we’re tired of trudging the streets, getting names,we’re tired of it because one developer comes in ….Mayor Lee: I’m going to jump in here Gloria …Gloria Snow: I’m sorry, I’m sorry…Wayne Hambly: I just have a couple of …Mayor Lee: We’ll give you a chance in a few minutes to respond, ok?Gloria Snow: I know, sorry.Wayne Hambly: I really think I need to thank Frank Murray for the referral. Frank, I doappreciate that. But again, the point I’m making is, Parkwood Estates, which was built in1968 and sure some of the homes are getting older in there now, but I tell you the peoplethat own those homes still have a very strong pride of ownership. That park was in place in1968. He says I’m the new kid on the block. I’ve been in that community since 1968, sowe’ve been around for a long time and again, people building in that area – that park wasalready there and if it was such a big problem, why would you build there? And that goesback to 1968. The same thing Hunters Lane, if it’s such a big problem, Riverview Estateswas already there, why would you build there if it was going to be such a big problem? Andthen the 3 rd point about the small lot size, R1S versus R1L, the way the cost of developingland today is going and every developer will tell you this, the cost of putting in the streets,the water and the sewer and the fire hydrants, today lots are getting smaller not bigger justbecause that’s the only way developers can afford to develop subdivisions and make lotsaffordable. So, when the City in its wisdom, and I certainly think it’s the right way to go,developed not only an R1L lot which is 75 foot frontage, they also developed an R1S lotwhich is 59 foot frontage to allow for developers to put housing in that wouldn’t have thelarge capital cost of development so they could offer land for development to the consumerat prices they could afford. And that’s a standard planning program in any City, develop
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 17smaller lot sizes. If you’re in Toronto, they have 28 foot frontage lots so we’re not doinganything different than just what … the cost to developers to try to do now. So those are thepoints I’d like to make.Mayor Lee: Thank you.David MacKenzie: Mayor Lee, I’d like to comment …Mayor Lee: Sure.David MacKenzie: Mr. Hambly made a …Mayor Lee: Could you just identify yourself..David MacKenzie: I’m sorry, David MacKenzie. Mr. Hambly made reference to acomment that I made and so that you all didn’t make the same mistake in the interpretationhe did, the graduation I was talking about was to make a buffer between commercialdevelopment and residential development and not between a nice river like the HillsboroughRiver and residential development. Mr. Hambly has a very nice mini home park atRiverside ….Wayne Hambly: Riverview.David MacKenzie: … Riverview Estates, nicely isolated on the opposite side of AcadianDrive, which is supposed to become an arterial road and it will probably be there as a gatedcommunity like was described before and he’s right, didn’t see it and as I’ll reiterate, when Iwas planning to build my home I saw that certain___ down there and I pictured the modularhomes hence buying my property. _____ mini homes in that particular area that Mr.Hambly cannot guarantee will not come back through this whole process again ____, couldnot. In fact, Mr. Hambly, to his due, would not guarantee that because as a business man heknows that he still is going to be in the same boat again. That’s why I asked you here to getit into Plan, in a good and well organized way. Thank you.Brenda MacNeill: Brenda macNeill. I just want to address Mr. Hambly’s comments aboutwhy we purchased our homes in the area knowing that Riverview Estates existed. When Ipurchased my home it was a very big decision for me. It was the first home I had everpurchased. I was lucky to have a really good real estate agent who really looked out for myinterest I thought at the time. I was quite aware that the land was there, that it was R1zoned. I was quite aware that Riverview Estates existed, I was quite aware that ParkviewEstates existed at the time. Therefore, the home that I purchased on Hunter Lane at the thattime … if I had been purchasing that same home in another part of the City I would havepaid probably $30,000 more for it. So, yes, I did take all those factors into account, but oneof the main factors I took into account was that R1 zoning that existed. The other issue Iwanted to address is he talks about there’s six building lots deep separating us from his minihome park. I mean, those are empty lots until he can get someone to purchase a modular
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 18home and want to put it on that lot and to lease that land from him. I mean, I don’t want totake that risk and I mean, you know, you can only need to look at those maps and look at thesize of this development compared to the rest of the community there. It’s not a small issuewe’re talking about and I guess, just again, I’ll voice my strong opposition towards thisrezoning.John Williams: Hi, John Williams. When Mr. Hambly initially got up, he mentioned thathe didn’t want to make it seem like a second class thing. Nobody, and I mean nobody, saidanything about second class citizens at any time. I just want to make that for the record.Mayor Lee: Is there anybody else from the audience that would like to comment or ask anyquestions?Marcus Kennedy: Marcus Kennedy, Hunter Lane. I’d like to come to you guys as aresident of Charlottetown, the capital city of Prince Edward Island. I’m feeling that minihomes are really construction … yesterday’s construction for affordable housing is the pointthat Mr. Hambly brought up. There’s other methods of affordable housing that are out therethat should be looked at if there is a need inside the City. You see how Stratford has gonethe approach, the taking away of mini homes altogether out of their city limits. I think as aresident of Charlottetown, we need affordable housing. We should be looking at othermethods of doing it. I really feel that mini homes inside City limits are of yesterday’sconstruction and is not something that we should see for future expansion inside our Citylimits. I think that’s pretty much it in a nutshell. Thanks.Mayor Lee: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Mr. Hambly …Wayne Hambly: I’m sorry, Your Honor, I don’t want to prolong this but I do have torespond to the last person talking about yesterday’s construction. I’m not quite sure what‘yesterday’s construction’ means but I can tell you the product that we offer to our clients isbuilt to CMHC, CSA standards, all the building code standards that are out there and thebuilding code standards that this product is built to far exceed an awful lot of the housingstock that perhaps might be in our community today. And I’m not quite sure what‘yesterday’s housing’ means.Marcus Kennedy: I just want to make a point that there’s other styles of construction ifwe’re looking at something… if we’re looking at affordable housing inside the City ofCharlottetown. Being the capital city, I don’t see other capital cities putting mini homeparks ___ across their land inside city limits so I just don’t want Council thinking that ifwe’re needing affordable housing a mini home park is the way to go. I just think that wasthe way things were done yesterday and it shouldn’t be part of future planning.Mayor Lee: Any other questions or comments? Any questions for members of Council onclarification? Councillor Brown?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 19Councillor Brown: Your Worship, just for clarification … Mr. Hambly, you stated that youowned and operated Parkwood Estates since 1968. Currently how many lots or units arenow situated there at Parkwood Estates?Wayne Hambly: 79.Councillor Brown: And under pre-amalgamation, was it part of the Community ofHillsborough or the Community of East Royalty?Wayne Hambly: It would have been East Royalty.Councillor Brown: It was part of the Community of East Royalty… Just in anotherquestion, on this map that’s in front of us, the existing park land you have designated at thispoint for the property zoned R1S is 6.5 acres correct? Or is that proposed?Wayne Hambly: It’s 10% of the total, yeah. The park land that you see in the whole projectmeets the requirement of the City in terms of required park land.Councillor Brown: Ok, so, up by Patterson Drive there’s a parcel … it’s called I think ParkA, right there?Wayne Hambly: Yeah.Councillor Brown: So you plan to designate that as park land or is that presently …Wayne Hambly: It’s presently designated and deeded at the city.Councillor Brown: As park land?Wayne Hambly: They have it now.Councillor Brown: So under the subdivision here on River Ridge Drive, 54 lots, 15 acres,you’ll be required to provide 1.5 acres of park land?Wayne Hambly: Yeah.Councillor Brown: Correct?Wayne Hambly: Yeah. Now, I think you’re right Philip.Councillor Brown: Yes, 10%.Wayne Hambly: It’s 10% of the overall subdivision and whether there’s one… Kevin, isthere 1.5 acres there?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 20Kevin ??: The park lands was calculated based on the whole ….Councillor Brown: 65 acres?Kevin ??: … the whole 65 acres ____it wasn’t specifically brought down to a piecemealportion of that…Councillor Brown: Right.Kevin?? .. but we’re looking at that plan, we’re probably not far off _______there will besome trails through there______Councillor Brown: Yeah. Your Worship, the question is – of the 6.5 acres dedicated forpark land, that has not been determined where it will go, only park A…Wayne Hambly: It has been determined, Philip, but if we have to adjust something to meeta different requirement, then we will do it.Councillor Brown: We can do that, Mr. Gaudet, ah Your Worship..Mayor Lee: Councillor Brown, my reaction would be if you’re developing 15 acres nowthen 1.5 acres would have to be designated as a park land.Councillor Brown: Right.Mayor Lee: Now, I don’t know where it is or if it’s a trail system or what it is but thatwould be my guess and Mr. Gaudet or someone from the Planning area want to correct meif I’m making …Councillor Bernard: But it’s the same as any subdivision that we approve. It’s 80% land inlieu of park land.Councillor Brown: I know that but we just clarified with the developer that they havedesignated or dedicated 6.5 acres of park land for the whole 65 acres, so, for the 15 acres forthe River Ridge Phase 3 or River Ridge mini home park that 1.5 … I’m asking His Worshipor the CAO if we can take that and provide that as a buffer with the adjoining streets, forexample, Hunter Lane, for example Patterson Drive. Like, that’s where you could haveyour park land, as a buffer between the …. No, I’m not done Mr. Williams…Mr. Williams: I’ll just wait.Councillor Brown: So, that is a possibility of suggesting to the Planning Board. The otherpoint that you made … this last Monday’s meeting …Brenda, and I believe Mr. Williamscouldn’t get a definite answer out of you regarding will you … you can go back to the….under the … yeah, that right here, this Deep River Drive that you couldn’t guarantee that
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 21you wouldn’t request a future Council for a rezoning of the Deep River Drive area. Buttonight you’ve stated that those properties, and you’ve counted them off, 15 properties Ibelieve, running adjacent to Hunter Lane, that you would keep them as R1S, correct?Wayne Hambly: Yeah but can I just respond to that remark?Councillor Brown: Yeah.Wayne Hambly: Phase 2, as you can see there on that slide, shows the first part of DeepRiver Drive and then the cul-de-sac of Sea Pine Court.Councillor Brown: Right.Wayne Hambly: That is R1S now and that’s been developed as R1S. Now, if you lookwhere the cursor is going up around there…Councillor Brown: Following ‘U’?Wayne Hambly: Following ‘u’, that’s going to be Deep River Drive right up to there. Thatstreet will always … I would never ask to have that changed from R1S.Councillor Brown: Ok, now the question was raised by, I don’t know if it was Mr. Williamsor Mr. MacNeill or Brenda MacNeill …Mayor Lee: Just get to your question ___.Councillor Brown: The point is, we could actually enshrine that in a developmentagreement between the City of Charlottetown and the developer.Mayor Lee: Yeah.Councillor Brown: Ok, thank you.Mayor Lee: Mr. Williams?John Williams: John Williams. What are you doing? He’s making the proposal and you’readding park land and everything into it. If that’s his proposal and he wants that phased asyou know, 15 acres, I for one am not going to make any agreement. I don’t want anyguarantees from Mr. Hambly because we fought long and hard in ’98 to get this zoned fromR1 at the time and it’s R1S now. No mini homes. That’s the way we wanted it then. Now Idon’t know what you’re just doing there Philip …Councillor Brown: I was asking questions for point of clarification.
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 22John Williams: Point of clarification… you have park land and taking 1.5 acres and puttingit up by Hunter Lane. We’re not asking for that, like, what are you doing? Are you helpinghim?Councillor Brown: Again, points of clarification.John Williams: That’s a good point of clarification.Mayor Lee: Thank you.Gloria Snow: Also, we’re not here representing Hunter Lane. We’re here representingHillsborough Park as per the 471 people that have been opposed to this and you know,they’re probably going to be many more. I mean, this isn’t a Hunter Lane issue. I don’tknow what’s happening here but it’s not just us so he can say he can put this row of R1S,you know, behind our street – so what! We’re representing our community, you know, andwe had a lot of thanks from people … ____tell you that many comments we’ve had from thepeople to thank God we’re doing what we’re doing because this would go through and theneverybody would say, oh, what did we do? What did we do? And they said, you know,kudos to us for doing what we’re doing because we’re not doing it for us, we’re doing it forHillsborough Park, to leave the land zoned R1 the way it is in our Official Plan. Thank you.Brenda MacNeill: I have to say I’m totally confused again because now we’re here againtalking about park land down by the ball field. That just gives me the feeling that this issomething like what happened seven years ago when it started out as 40 acres. We got to apublic meeting and we discovered it was 55 acres – isn’t that what the situation .. why arewe talking about park land outside of the rezoned area? Like, I’m totally confused by thatPhilip.Councillor Brown: There were points of clarification. I asked …the 65 acres is based on10%, ok, 10% in cash in lieu or 10% of the land. That’s what he showed me, 6.5 acres,that’s what I asked for a point of clarification. That’s what we’re supposed to do is whenwe’re asking these questions.Brenda MacNeill: Ok, the other issue that we have is this here guarantee of, you know, notcoming back for a rezoning in the future and everything. I just want to let known that Iplace no value on any guarantees that are given. When this proposal was put forwardbefore, like, we were talking 7200 square foot lots with 60 – 70 foot frontages on them. Imean, what do we see here? We see 5800 so I mean he’s not going to do anything otherthan what is required of him as a minimum in the bylaws and I don’t blame him. I mean,you know, that’s his right so I mean, why are we asking for a guarantee to something that,you mean, it doesn’t mean anything. Nobody is going to enforce it.Mayor Lee: Can we have … Councillor Garrity?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 23Councillor Garrity: Thank you. First of all congratulations to all presenters, I think you dida great job. Some lady said she was scared but Gloria, you should run for politics, you did asuper job. And you were all good, Wayne was good, everybody did a good job, that’s clear.I have one question and I just must have missed it. In the gentle yellow versus the brightyellow areas, the bright yellow or the orange, whatever it is, what size lots are those now orproposed to be if it’s finished? Is it 5900 square feet, did I hear that?Wayne Hambly: When the zoning R1S, was designated R1S back six or seven years ago,the plan was drawn to meet R1S specification. Now even though we’ve designated andasked for a rezoning in that area there, we haven’t changed the plan from the original plan interms of lot size.Councillor Garrity: Ok, that’s what I wanted to know. So their the same size, the whole …all the yellow, even though their bright for this purpose?Wayne Hambly: No, but Bruce, to the point, they’re not all exactly 60 feet, some may be 65feet, some maybe 200 feet deep, some maybe a 120 feet deep. You know, the lot squarefootage varies from one lot to another simply because of the layout of the …Councillor Garrity: Sure, thank you very much.Mayor Lee: Any other questions?Cindy Williams: But the point I’d like to make too with … if he receives MH zoning withthis 15 acres, the minimum he can go with the 5000 square feet, that would be his right to dothat. So telling us that he’s going to, you know, with 5800 square feet and lah, dee, dah,doesn’t mean he’s not going to because if he gets the zoning, he has that right to use theminimum 5000 square feet.Brenda MacNeill: I just want to add to Cindy’s comments there. I totally agree with whatshe’s saying there. There’s, you know, nothing to prevent those lots from being 5005 squarefeet. I mean, even when I talk to the Planning Department here, I was told that until therezoning goes through, a survey does not have to be done. They said lots do not have to be___. Absolutely nothing that would prevent that from being rezoned and he’s entitled torezone it … ___ entitled to have the 5000 square foot lot and I don’t see how you canprevent him from doing that.Mayor Lee: Any comments from Council – Councillor Bernard?Councillor Bernard: Thank you Your Worship. I just want to .. Your Worship, I had ameeting, a Town Hall meeting here about a week and a half ago on this issue. I want tothank Wayne for coming and doing his presentation to my constituents and I want to thankthe constituents again for coming out tonight. Thank you very much.
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 24David Wilson: I want to speak for … on behalf of all of Hillsborough Park. Obviously youcouldn’t hold all of us in this room and 470 names plus on the petition .. we’d like for theCouncil to take that into account and don’t vote in favour of one man, one business man,against 470 plus residents. Thank you.Mary Gallant: I’m Mary Gallant. Mr. Hambly was …mentioned about the mini homesbeing cost-effective. Having said that, if this was passed, do we get a cut in our land taxes?Mayor Lee: I don’t know – Wayne, do you want to give them a cut?Wayne Hambly: Well, that’s an interesting question I think, but I can tell you that theproperties that house mini homes are assessed in the same manner that any other property ina community is assessed, so the fact that the tax base would … is basically going to be thesame thing. There is one difference between the tax … the Riverview Estates, which Ineglected to mention, but I think I mentioned it at the public meeting… the other meeting aweek or so ago. There is one major, major difference between this 15 acres, if it wererezoned MH, to Riverview Estates and that is that Riverview Estates is a totally privatecommunity. By that I mean private roads, private water, private sewer, and thatmaintenance is the responsibility of our company to look after that. This new developmenthere in the dark yellow, that is actually going to be put into the same standard as any othersubdivision in the City – City street standards, City water standards, City sewer standards,fire hydrant standards and they will be pinned surveyed lots, the same as any other lot in thecommunity and the streets will be maintained … turned over to the City the same as anysubdivision and maintained by the City. So instead of having, if you will, 20 foot street,you’ve got streets now with 66 foot right of ways and the whole set of services in thatparticular area would be the community standard versus Riverview standards. Not thatRiverview is necessarily much different but there is a difference there.Mayor Lee: Mr. MacKenzie?David MacKenzie: David MacKenzie. One of the points that was not made at this meeting…looks at Mr. Hambly’s plan and he mentioned this point in passing during our last publicmeeting and he just made mention in passing again. All the land in this development isleased land presently but it has to meet City standards for individual ___ lots. At theculmination of this planned development, find a way to make a profit on this business planto then sell the individual lots. Like, he being as a leased community at the present time,Mr. Hambly is able to control and, you see this point he made himself, he’s able to controlthe environment which keeps it a well, and in some ways, above the zoning or bylaws of theCity. He cannot allow … to have no cars parked in the front yard for instance. No satelliteparked in the front yard. He can keep property values looking very, very good and lookvery good for resale and for future sales of all his properties. Then at the end of the wholedevelopment, he can make … he’s made his profit, he’s made his cash flow, then he sellsindividual lots and finishes off his real estate venture and he can move on to some otherarea. It’s a really good business plan and if taken to its fruition if allowed to. At the end ofthat period though, if we do have, and I’ll put it … my biggest fear .. this road right here …
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 25if I got mini homes on there and then it’s just sold .. so now it’s not a park, it’s not controlledby a manger who’s trying to keep it well controlled. Now it’s individuals on individual landwithin the City limits who have their own … they can do whatever they want and I’velooked at other mini home parks in that situation and they don't maintain the mini homesvery well.Wayne Hambly: I think it deserves just a common sense response. Any subdivision in theCity that’s controlled by individuals has control over how they keep their lot, whether it’sthe contractor that develops it, rents it or sells it, does whatever with it, at the end of the dayif you own your own lot, with the exception of the City bylaws, you’re in control of it. It’snot going to be any different than any other lot in any other part of the City.Susan Clancey: My name is Susan Clancey. I just have one question. I live on Hunter Laneas well. I’ve been there for ___ years and most of us come out and go down NorthridgeParkway and one day, fairly soon, there’s going to be a major accident because you cannotget out there now. There’s so much traffic coming out of the Hillsborough development thatto get on to that main road with so many cars coming in from East Royalty as it is now,you’re taking your life in your hands trying to get out there. So I cannot … I don’t see howyou’re going to get all these places in there and if Hunter Lane gets extended, orWorthington, how these cars are all going to get out by Kentucky Fried Chicken there – it isterrible right now to get out of . It doesn’t matter if it’s in the morning, night or whatever.Right now it’s just … you get out there as quick as you can and you take your life in yourhands and now Roger Birt has started a subdivision across the road so there’s going to bepeople coming up this way, we’re trying to get out this way and East Royalty is coming thisway and the lights are all coming and there’s no …you know, when the traffic is going onRiverside Drive, people are making right-hand turns so we can’t get out. I can’t see howyou’re going to get all these people in there and not be able to get out of there safely as it isnow.?? We don’t have to worry, we’re going to have our transit system this summer. (laughterand clapping)John Williams: .. started talking a little bit about money and taxes. I’d like to ask Mr.Hambly, in the dark shaded area we’re talking 54 mini homes. Are you talking 54 modularstoo if this stays the way it is? Maybe if you didn’t get your application approved _______zoned R1S __ modulars ___ you got to make a dollar. Anyway ____.Mr. Hambly: The answer is that it’s presently zoned R1S and the layout will allowmodulars to go through the whole area. The dilemma that we’re in as a business, we have anumber of people every month asking for the mini home style of housing and can weprovide it and so we’re trying to respond to this need that’s been put before us. If nobodywas asking for it, I wouldn’t be here asking for the rezoning. The reason I’m here is peopleare coming every day to us saying why don’t you make a place for more of these houses inthe City so we could afford and we can have our own home as well and that’s why I’m here.If they weren’t asking for it, I wouldn’t be here so…
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 26?? Seeing that and you’re not having any problem at the present time with your modularbusiness. You’re … Phase 1 is done, you’re working on Phase 2 now, it’s been movingfairly well in your opinion?Mr. Hambly: It’s in ___, yeah.?? The question I have to Councillor or … long day … you take 54 mini homes and putthem in that dark shaded area and let’s say you take out 51 modulars, which probably wouldbe going in there, you’re looking at probably 70% less taxes coming into the City coffers,that’s just a ‘guesstimate’ on my behalf because you’re talking $50,000 - $80,000 minihomes compared to $110,000 modular home, roughly?Mr. Hambly: Mr. ___ the price structure is this. Mini homes are $53,000 - $54,000 to$75,000. Modular homes from about $75,000… no, I’m sorry from about $85,000 up.Now, our experience with River Ridge has been $85,000 to $95,000 has been kind of thenorm. So, the land itself though, regardless of what goes on it, is taxed at the same rate____.?? Going back to ’98, we had ____ come to public meetings and he had kind words to sayabout Mr. Hambly and how he develops his property and so on and so forth, but when helooked at that 64 acres, he said in real estate you’ve got to go with the highest and best use,it’s valuable land. This .. in my opinion right now this land could be developed just like ifyou’re talking about out Parkwest Subdivision off the Lower Malpeque Road or anywhereout in … where Donnie MacKinnon has the property off the Upton Road. That’s the type ofproperties that should be going in there, although Mr. Hambly owns the land and I’m surehe’s not going to be building $150,000 - $200,000 homes but anyway, that’s what the Cityand I think this Council and the Planning should consider ___ better use and mini homesaren’t the highest investors. Thank you.?? Mr. Mayor and Councillors, I would like to just amplify that. I’d invite you to go andhave a look in behind where we’re just talking about. It’s a magnificent view of theHillsborough River, just a magnificent view of the Hillsborough River. That’s one of thereasons Mr. Hambly put that very nice apartment building there. If you go walk wherethose roads are going to be _____ Mr. Hambly ___ what John just said, hits you like a ton ofbricks. Anybody would want to have a ___ home there. You just go look at it. It would bea very, very easy place to put a high __ home because the view is just breathtaking. Thankyou.Mr. Hambly: I have to tell you folks, I feel a little strongly about this. Why in the worldcan’t we supply competent housing to people that they can afford in a nice place to live witha nice view? Why does this have to be a $200,000 home that will only attract the upperechelon of the community? Why is the guy that makes $300 a week or $250 a week notable to have a home that he can afford with a nice view? Why is he not allowed to have thatchoice as well as everybody else?
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 27?? Ah… Mr. Hambly, we’re not … sorry, we’re not saying that, none of us is saying that,what you just said.Mr. Hambly: ________ just said.?? I just said it’s a magnificent view and what we’ve all been arguing for is to keep itmodular and in Mr. Hambly’s own words, we don’t get a $200,000 … normally don’t get a$200,000 home in a modular home.Mayor Lee: Any other questions or comments?Frank Murray: Frank Murray. At the risk of joining Philip in asking for points ofclarification, we’re talking here about the lot sizes and the frontages and so on. Mr. Hamblyreferred to the difference between this phase and the phase across the road. He’s saying thatthis is like a normal part of the City, a normal lot, normal fire hydrants, snow removal,lights, street maintenance and all the things that the Charlottetown town budget has to payfor. If that’s the case, should you not be looking at the frontage requirements for regular lotslike anywhere else. Over the years there have been homes that got damaged or burned and Ior my company went in, the company I worked for went in to do work on it and because oflot size and frontage restrictions, we were forced, rather than build a new place, to demolishthe old one and build on the old foundation because that was grandfathered in but the newlaws would not allow a change. Now I realize that there are variances that Planning Boardsare asked to consider all the time but given what we’re looking at here, I encourage PlanningBoard to consider just how great a variance this is and is it appropriate. I think not.Mayor Lee: Any other comments from the floor?Councillor Brown: Your Worship, just on the MH zoning under Section 15, Frank, andSection 10 R1S, it does outline minimum lot area, corner lot area on the minimum, what youneed. It gives you lot frontage… they’re not the same because, as you know, modular homeor a built home requires different widths, different frontage, so that’s why you have smaller… just to answer your point of clarification.Mayor Lee: Any other questions or comments? That concludes that part of the agendafolks. Mr. Gaudet, I think there’s one bylaw of the 1 st and 2 nd reading?Mr. Gaudet: Yes there is Your Worship.1 st . reading of the “City of Charlottetown Zoning and Development Bylaw”(To rezone property at 20 Lapthorne Avenue (PID #363556) from Institutional (I)Zone to Low Density Residential (R-2) Zone (delayed from August 8, 2005, CouncilMeeting)Moved by Councillor Philip Brown
Public Meeting of CouncilThursday, August 11, 2005Page 28Seconded by Councillor Kim DevineRESOLVED:That the bylaw to amend the “City of Charlottetown Zoning and DevelopmentBylaw” be read a first timeMOTION CARRIED 7-0.2nd. reading of the “City of Charlottetown Zoning and Development Bylaw”(To rezone property at 20 Lapthorne Avenue (PID #363556) from Institutional (I)Zone to Low Density Residential (R-2) Zone (delayed from August 8, 2005, CouncilMeeting)Moved by Councillor Philip BrownSeconded by Councillor Kim DevineRESOLVED:That the said bylaw be read a second time and that the bylaw be committed to aCommittee of the Whole Council, and the Mayor be Chair man of the Committee.MOTION CARRIED 7-0Moved by Councillor Philip BrownSeconded by Councillor Kim DevineRESOLVED:That the Chairman reports progress of the Committee and that the Bylaw be adoptedwithout amendments.MOTION CARRIED 7-0Moved by Councillor Philip BrownSeconded by Councillor Kim DevineRESOLVED:That the bylaw be now engrossed as a City Bylaw and that it be entitled the “City ofCharlottetown Zoning and Development Bylaw” and that it be read a third time atthe next Public Meeting of Council.MOTION CARRIED 7-0To amend Appendix “H” – Zoning Map of the City of Charlottetown Zoning andDevelopment Bylaw and to rezone the property at 20 Lapthorne Avenue (PID#363556)from Institutional (I) Zone to Low Density Residential (R-2) Zone.MEETING ADJOURNED