The Negotiation Society Magazine: The Diversity Issue

ISSUE 6
The Negotiation Society
BRINGING THE ART AND SCIENCE OF NEGOTIATION TO LIFE
THE DIVERSITY ISSUE
A
QUESTION
OF STYLE
Have you ever asked,
Do men and women negotiate
differently? We did, and
the results are in.
UNITED
WE STAND
I DID IT
MY WAY
WORK LIFE
BALANCE
SAME
DIFFERENCE
The role of male allies
Smashing through
the glass ceiling
Negotiating the blend
that’s right for you
The importance of asking
uncomfortable questions

INSIDE THIS ISSUE
12 15
United
We Stand
Gender equality champions
Lori Stockel and Andy Dunn
discuss how to convert male
privilege to male allyship.
I Did It
My Way
Three professionals who’ve
made it to the top in
industries where they are
different tell us their stories.
WELCOME FROM GRAHAM
18 26
Different
By Design
An intimate portrait of our
enigmatic head of consulting
in Asia, and how not fitting in
has made him better at his job.
28 36
Same
Difference
Torsten Gross gives his
perspective on being a
member of the world’s
largest minority, and
why he welcomes
awkward questions.
Work Life
Balance
Two working mothers reveal
how stay-at-home partners
and uber organizational skills
help them combine demanding
careers with small children.
Question
Time
Our distinguished panel
give varied and personal
perspectives on the relevance
of diversity to negotiation.
I write this from my home office, a place I never
realized I would be spending so much time in! We
are living in a world that is evolving at a pace unseen
before. Never has negotiation been more critical to
business survival and future success. Equally, never
have diversity, inclusion and belonging been more
important to your customers, your suppliers and
your people.
Most business articles we’re reading right now
are about COVID-19 and its impact, and my
colleagues would be delighted to talk with you about
that topic. But for this issue of The Negotiation
Society magazine, we have chosen to stimulate your
thinking about negotiation through an even longerterm
lens, as our theme is diversity.
Our cover story on gender and negotiation shares
some fascinating insight around the differences and
similarities in the way men and women approach
and feel about negotiation.
We profile Wai Lau, our head of consulting
in APAC. Reading about Wai’s culturally diverse
upbringing, it’s striking how those formative
experiences have shaped him as a negotiator.
Torsten Gross urges us to ask questions and never
assume. So many negotiations have gone disastrously
wrong as a result of this simple error. As someone
who’s had his fair share of being on the receiving end
of incorrect assumptions, Torsten is well-placed to
offer such advice.
A final thought: our world just changed. How
we do business is more than a value differentiator;
today’s consumers will choose value-driven brands.
Negotiation is a public demonstration of your
organization’s values and culture.
Graham Botwright
CEO, The Gap Partnership
2

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
OUR CONTRIBUTORS
Zoleka Lisa
Saiful Islam
Freddy Burgess
As Vice President of Corporate
Affairs for South African Breweries
(SAB), Zoleka leads public policy,
transformation, entrepreneurship
and sustainability strategy. She
also represents the company on
boards including SAB Foundation,
AWARE.org and Beer Association
for SA. Prior to joining SAB,
Zoleka spent nine years as a senior
manager at Accenture.
As cofounder of the Muslim
Influencer Network (M.I.N) and
managing partner at Mvslim, Saiful
specializes in diversity, faith and
integration-based comms. He
has been recognized as a Top 50
Thought Leader in Influencer
Marketing, and previously oversaw
strategy and digital transformation
for global organizations including
Primark and The UN.
Freddy’s career has spanned the
pharmaceutical, FMCG and retail
industries across Europe, the
US and the Middle East. Now a
consultant at TGP, his training in
psychology drives his fascination
with the behavioral elements of
negotiation. Freddy supports clients
in multiple sectors including retail,
procurement, employee relations,
operations and unions.
Dr. Valentina
Serra Holm
Valentina has over twenty years’
experience in the manufacturing
industry, boasting several senior
technical and commercial roles.
She is passionate about building
bridges between the technical and
commercial sides of organizations,
and creating solution-based business
approaches. Currently Valentina
serves as President of the Union of
the European Lubricants Industry.
Ivan Hung
Ivan is the lead consultant for
the Greater China market at
The Gap Partnership. Since
joining the company in 2012 he
has supported more than 1,000
executives and 80+ blue chip
organizations in their negotiations,
on projects including trade spend
optimization, cost price reduction,
government tenders, resisting big
ask, and engineering.
Eva-Maria Baumer
Eva-Maria works closely with
Mastercard’s Vice Chair to build
partnerships with the private
and public sectors. She drives the
rollout of financial inclusion and
entrepreneurial projects across
the globe, with a specific focus on
women’s economic empowerment.
Eva’s expertise lies in developing
strategies and influencing people to
achieve a common goal.
3

INSIDE
MY HEAD
ZOLEKA LISA
ZOLEKA LISA, AB INBEV’S VP OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS, SHARES
HOW SHE HAS COMBINED DRIVE, EMPATHY AND A DEEP SENSE
OF COMMUNITY IN HER RACE TO THE TOP.
How did you make it to where
you are today?
After nearly a decade as a consultant,
I joined South African Breweries. The
fit was perfect: I love consumer goods
– products I can see, touch, taste, smell
and see the impact of. I worked my
way up and became Corporate Affairs
Vice-President in 2019.
What’s the best thing about your role?
I have a corporate giant believing in me
and a platform to improve communities
and effect change. I work on projects
that impact the everyday lives of
people such as the SAB Public Interest
Commitments, a multi-million rand
supplier development and
transformation fund.
What makes you excited
about the future?
I’m passionate about education and
young people’s access to it for the
African continent to develop. I’m also
passionate about gender transformation.
Women must be empowered to believe
in themselves and their worth to society.
How do you deal with challenges?
Writer Vivian Green said, “Life isn’t
about waiting for the storm to pass,
it’s about learning to dance in the
rain.” I share this philosophy and see
challenges as an opportunity to grow.
What are your biggest challenges?
Influencing stakeholders and landing
new ideas. People engage with people
and so I believe in having a personal
brand. If you consistently produce
quality work, you’ll be trusted. Being
a young black female in big corporate
boardrooms was difficult in the early
days, but by realizing I don’t have to
know everything, believing in myself
and surrounding myself with people I
can learn from, I’ve been able to succeed.
How important is the skill of
negotiation in your career?
My role sees me partnering with
government, regulatory bodies, NGOs,
other corporates and communities, as
we design and implement community
uplift programs. Understanding the
art of negotiation means I ensure both
parties walk away satisfied.
And what about negotiating
outside of work?
[Laughs] Life as a working mom
means you never stop negotiating.
I teach my kids how negotiation can
yield positive results, but sometimes
you need to walk away.
What’s the most important lesson
you’ve learned as a negotiator?
It takes courage to stand up and talk,
and to sit down and listen. We have
to have the emotional maturity and
professionalism to reach a balance that
suits all parties.
What life lessons have you learned
along the way?
I’ve faced many challenges, but how
I dealt with them shows strength
and is an example to my children and
others. Perseverance and hard work are
important. And, by connecting with
people from different backgrounds and
expertise, I’ve been able to develop
professionally and personally.
You have been very successful. What
advice would you give to women with
similar aspirations?
There is a place for women at the
table, and while we still have to push,
it’s becoming easier as society evolves
and recognizes our value. We have
the whole package – our inherent
nurturing side and our ability to make
decisions that can change the trajectory
of a business. These two are a powerful
combination. Don’t sit back, make your
voice heard, and learn from others on
your way to the top.
4

TALES OF THE
unexpected
Diverse teams have been shown to be more creative.
Here are just two everyday examples showing how
brilliant ideas can come from unexpected places.
We wanted to buy a piece of land,
together with another couple, on
which we would both build houses.
The area is a sellers’ market with people
paying well above asking price. I went
into negotiation with the real estate
agent and of course opened extreme
with a low offer. It was rejected, with
no counter-offer. I made some steps,
as movement oils the machine of
negotiations. But still, all I heard was
“no”. I was discussing the situation
with my wife when my 15 year-old son
piped up: “Dad, you’re always talking
about creating value. Can you not create
value within this deal?”
This made me stop and think. I
recalled what the real estate agent told
me in our first meeting: that the owner
of the land had a relationship with an
architect, whom we’d met and liked.
So what I then said was, “If you pay
for x hours of the architect, then we
will pay you x amount for the ground.”
From that point forward price was no
longer an issue and discussions focused
around the number of architect hours.
Due to my son, we brought a 4 o'clock
negotiation to 7 on the Clockface and
closed the deal.
Mickel Ouweneel
A few years ago my kids were really
into loom bands, which was a global
craze. While I didn’t love the little bits
of rubber scattered throughout my
house, I did love the story of how they
were invented. The idea came from a
seat belt engineer, Cheong Choon Ng,
who saw his daughters making bracelets
out of rubber bands. As his fingers were
too big to play along, he made another
out of loom. He then patented it, spent
his savings to get it made in China…
and the rest, as they say, is history.
Ann Marie Costelloe
5

6ILLUSTRATIONS: MATTHEW MERRALLS
DO
MEN AND WOMEN
NEGOTIATE DIFFERENTLY?
A major new study investigates the different ways that men
and women feel about and approach negotiation, and has some
clear implications for anyone wanting to improve their
deal-making outcomes. Emma Weare reports.

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
In November 2019, we posted a question on
The Gap Partnership’s LinkedIn page, which
simply asked, “Do men and women negotiate
differently?”
Of course, we knew through casually posing the
same question to colleagues, friends and family,
that there would be differing points of view on this
issue. Some answers were instant and emphatic, “Yes,
of course they do, [insert mildly offensive noun].”
Others would muse for a beat longer, and we’d
get a more thoughtful response along the lines of
“Well yes, perhaps, but nothing significant and that
experience and training can’t mediate against.” And
then there was everything in between, including a
personal favorite - the gnomic, “Well, if they do, then
they shouldn’t.”
Likewise, the LinkedIn post was energetically
responded to, enjoying (for the analytics fans) a
6.36% engagement rate. Whether the commenters
agreed, disagreed, or represented every shade of
greyness in the middle, it was clearly a topic that
generated strong opinions, provoked debate and
stirred emotions.
We were delighted. And curious. And a little excited.
Of course we had read the seminal research from
the 2000s that had shown distinct gender differences
in negotiation attitudes and styles – spawning a
legion of books and experts on the concept that
“women don’t ask.” We had also started to run our
own events around the topic, hearing directly from
women and men at the coalface of commercial
negotiation about their personal experiences and views.
But we also recognized that the commercial
negotiators we work with in the present day are a
different generation to those in Linda Babcock et al’s
research. Attitudes have moved on. Social mores are
more evolved. The world has undergone huge change.
Sure, there is still a disappointingly chunky pay and
leadership gap, but overall women and men are just
more equal now, right?
So, what would a contemporary and farreaching
piece of research reveal? Well, we had
to find out, and so The Gap Partnership’s Gender
and Negotiation Research Project was conceived
and born. It began with a comprehensive survey to
identify current negotiation attitudes and behaviors
and encompassed a split of genders, geographies,
sectors, roles, ages and nationalities. That was
supplemented with one-to-one interviews to dig
deeper and add color and context.
When the responses were number-crunched,
interviews conducted and the report pulled together,
what it told us was at once surprising, expected,
insightful and obvious. It has provided us with an
added layer of depth to a topic that is still so relevant,
and helped us understand how we can better partner
with our clients in our day-to-day work to help them
consistently achieve excellent negotiation outcomes.
MEN AND WOMEN THINK
THAT MEN AND WOMEN
NEGOTIATE DIFFERENTLY
The original question
that inspired the research
– “Do men and women
negotiate differently?” – was definitively answered
in the affirmative, with 73% agreeing overall.
Probing into how it was felt these differences
manifest themselves flushed out some famliar
stereotypes around what are considered typically
male, and typically female patterns of behavior,
and the negative reactions that can result from
transgression from these. As a woman in aviation
told us, “Men can be more direct. But when
women are direct, men can be less accepting –
they don’t want to hear what’s being said.” A male
retail executive in the US concurred, commenting,
“Women in the workforce get a rap when they are
hard negotiators…and might be considered bitchy.
If a male does it, the attitude is, they’re just the
alpha male.”
These observations, widely echoed from other
respondents, suggest that the attitudes from the
Babcock research have not in fact evolved as much
as we might have suspected. Indeed, a 2017 study
by Joseph Grenny and David Maxfield revealed
that gender bias in the workplace is still very real.
They found that women’s perceived competency
drops by 35% when they are judged as being
“forceful” or “assertive”.
THESE LABELS ARE
WIDELY IMPOSED, AND
WOMEN ARE HYPER
AWARE OF THEM
Our research replicated the
counter-intuitive but welldocumented
finding that women (as much as men)
tend to judge assertive women in a negative way.
A woman working in oil and gas told us, “On my
The Gap Partnership workshop, there was another
woman who was more like the men. She was pretty
tough and fierce. I thought: You’re a woman, you’re
not meant to lie. I had double standards.”
Another woman working in CPG expanded:
“It’s extremely common that women who act
more like men get talked about differently than
if a man were to do the same thing. It’s not just
the men who tend to label them, women label
themselves…Maybe that’s why I’ve seen the style
I see most utilized [by women] is much more
of the listen first, remain objective. It wouldn’t
surprise me if they’d been trained so that no one
can question their motivation, their personality.
It’s much more difficult to tear them down, almost
a protective mechanism.”
7

MEN LOVE NEGOTIATING MORE
THAN WOMEN…UNLESS IT’S
COLLABORATIVE
Could this judgement bias that
negatively impacts women explain why
our research revealed that men are more
than twice as likely as women to love negotiating? They liken
it to performing, enjoying the back-and-forth and banter
involved. One man told us, “It’s fun to get a deal, fun to save
money and drive the solutions that my clients need.” Another
was specific, “I love going to buy cars. It might take me a few
days, but getting to that point…just the art of it I enjoy.”
In contrast to the classic car-buying negotiation –
distributive, zero-sum, little to no requirement for a
long-term relationship – women told us they preferred
negotiations that took place on the left-hand side of the
Clockface. One female finance executive explained, “I love
when it’s a win-win, everyone is happy at the end. The work
gets done and everyone feels like it’s a good deal.”
BUT BOTH WOMEN AND MEN HAVE
A BEEF WITH MEN WHO ARE TOO
AGGRESSIVE
One of the classic tactics of negotiation
is that of opening extreme. The point
of it is that it gives the negotiator
room to move. When that’s not the case and extreme turns
to intransigent, it is a position disliked by women and men
alike. What’s especially noteworthy is that in these scenarios
of “shotgun tactics,” or “stonewalling,” our research found
that it made men in particular unhappy.
WOMEN LOVE TO BE
COLLABORATIVE…BUT THAT
PLAYS INTO A SOCIALLY-IMPOSED
GENDER STEREOTYPE
Women told us that they enjoy working
with others to find joint solutions and
achieve a win-win that works for all. Men told us that women
can be more upfront with what they really need and are less
prone to holding their cards close to their chest, which can
drive real collaboration and creativity in problem solving.
This could be a double-edged sword, however. When we
spoke to Margaret Neale, Adams Distinguished Professor
of Management, Emerita at Stanford Graduate School of
Business, who specializes in the gender and negotiation field,
she pointed out that women are more likely to be collaborative
with a greater tendency to listen simply because their
traditional societal role is to make others feel comfortable.
WOMEN ARE REASONABLY
CONFIDENT NEGOTIATORS, BUT…
WAIT FOR IT…NOT AS CONFIDENT
AS MEN
The good news is that a third of women
rated their confidence in negotiation
as 76, or higher, out of 100. However, over a third said they
would negotiate more if they were more confident. And so
we return to the issue of women feeling hyper-aware of how
they will be perceived, because we found they were much
more likely to worry than men that they come across as too
soft or emotional, or of getting a “no” if their “ask” is not
deemed reasonable.
PERHAPS WOMEN SHOULD
BE MORE CONFIDENT, AS
THEY ARE BETTER PREPARED
Men and women told us that women
are both better prepared and better
researched than men before they enter
into a negotiation. This could be linked to the confidence
issue – if you are inclined to be less confident, then one way
to counteract that would be to put in the work beforehand
so you know all the facts, have built a strategy that takes into
account all possible scenarios, and, overall, avoid “winging
it”. On the plus side, women are positive about this more
considered approach, and men acknowledged these qualities
as a strength in their negotiation teams.
POWER IS THE THIRD VARIABLE
While our respondents identified and
spoke about differences in gender,
Margaret Neale says the different
behaviors and attitudes we are seeing
are as much a function of a power
difference. She says negotiators are
either low-power individuals – those who listen more,
look for more collaboration and are “the engines behind
value generation”, or high-power individuals – those who
are interested in claiming value. “Power systematically
affects how people negotiate,” she says, and this affects
women disproportionately as “women on average occupy
lower power positions”. It therefore follows that creating
more opportunities for women to hold positions of power
by closing the leadership (and salary) gaps will lead to
a flattening out of these marked gender differences in
confidence, negotiation-style and approach.
8

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
THE ROLE OF CLOTHES AND WHY
POWER DRESSING ISN’T DEAD
We were a little staggered to find
that women are 50% more likely to
wear something different on days
they are negotiating. As a woman in
manufacturing reminded us, “Women are always judged more
harshly on their appearance than men…I am sure to dress
just a little better than I expect the men to be.” A female
advertising executive in the US described the balance she tries
to achieve between looking smart and feminine: “I endeavor
to have professional make up, hair and a suit, or conservative
dress, but I don’t try to look masculine. I embrace being a
woman but always in the most professional capacity.”
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO YOU ARE,
TRAINING IS THE MAGIC PILL
Part of our business is negotiation
capability development – in plain
English, negotiation training. We were
therefore pleased to find our results
showed a strikingly positive correlation between training and
confidence. With training, confidence levels went up across
the board, with most more than tripling their high confidence
levels when they’ve received training. Only 9% of women
with no training rated their confidence above 75 out of 100.
But with training, 34% of women rated their confidence high.
And for men, this went from 25% without training to 44%
when they’ve received training. Training was credited not just
with reducing anxiety before a negotiation, but also in helping
in strategy development and tactical planning. Perhaps just
as critically, training helped our negotiators to separate their
personal feelings from the negotiation.
BRING ON GENDER DIVERSITY
IN NEGOTIATION TEAMS – IT’S
A NO-BRAINER
Interestingly, there was a lot of
support from men for having mixedgender
teams – they very much saw
this as adding value, not least because as one man working
in transport told us, “They’re calmer negotiations with an
element of people being on their best behavior. Mixed groups
make for better outcomes. It stops a lot of posturing.” More
profoundly perhaps, another male executive in manufacturing
pointed out that, “The world is a lot more diverse. Everyone
brings something to the table, which is really important. It
doesn’t matter where you’re from, male or female, it’s about
coming together and bringing our strengths.”
HOW CAN THIS RESEARCH HELP
US BE BETTER NEGOTIATORS?
Whether they reinforce or challenge
what you perceive to be the differences
(or not) in how men and women
approach negotiation, these results are
fascinating. They reveal not just a genuine range of difference
in what men and women feel about negotiation, but also how
that plays out in their preferred negotiation style. They also
strongly support the role of ongoing negotiation training
in helping both genders navigate these differences. And, of
having a gender-mix in negotiation teams.
As Graham Botwright, CEO of The Gap Partnership, commented,
“We train teams on the full spectrum of styles, strategies and
tactics and how to apply them appropriately to each situation.
We know that individuals often feel more comfortable with certain
negotiation styles than others, but we believe every professional
negotiator should learn to flex their preferred style as appropriate
to the situation to get the best outcome.”
The final word goes to one of the commenters on our original
LinkedIn post, who in response to the question, said, “It has been
my experience that a person’s confidence, in-depth knowledge of the
ask, and the ability to define, deliver, and clearly explain the mutual
benefits becomes a positive experience for all, regardless of gender,
culture, and age.”
To download the full negotiation and gender report,
please visit www.thegappartnership.com TNS
9

Nobody wants a disrupted supply chain but striving
for a disruptive supply chain…well, that may just be
worth exploring. Freddy Burgess spells it out.
Diversity, as a term, is widely
considered in the commercial
world to do with people, and
rightly so. The diversity of your
workforce is critical to a breadth of
experience, cultures, values and ideas
that will feed into the strategy and
future of your success. If we accept the
premise that diversity is good, then it
becomes incumbent on us to consider
where else we can seek it out in order to
reap the benefits.
Let’s take that thought and roll with
it with our supply chain. Take a piece
of paper and write down your top ten
suppliers: the ten companies that are
contributing most to your business,
be it in product, service or ideas. Now
looking through that list, let’s consider
the diversity of those businesses, not
just from your own but each other.
How many of them are based in the
same country or even located in the
same place? How many have similar
staff profiles to yours? How many have
been in business give or take the same
amount of time?
I would even challenge you to think
of the mission, vision and values of
these companies. How many of them
could be paraphrased from your own?
I don’t know the answer to these
questions for you, but I can tell you of
the people I have reached out to and
asked to complete this exercise, the
average has been more than 80%.
So, here is the crux. If we are now
rightly striving for diversity in our own
businesses, in our own teams, why not
in the business partners with whom we
are working?
Let’s be clear: this is not a
revolutionary idea, and I am not
the first to write an article about
this. But that makes the point no
less valid. The research and thought
on this subject is deep and justified.
A diverse supply chain has, in
my opinion, four key benefits
to your business.
10

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
1. YOU WILL BE CHALLENGED MORE
OFTEN AND MORE DIRECTLY
A compliant supply base may sound
ideal, but think about the times
positive change has happened in
your organization. It has almost
certainly been born from someone or
something challenging you to change
the game. If your supply chain is full
of organizations and indeed people
who think, work, look and grow “like
you”, then the chance for you to be
challenged and pushed outside of your
comfort zone diminishes. No one ever
really grows or creates meaningful
change while they are inside their
comfort zone. Wouldn’t you rather
have an engaged, dynamic group of
business partners who came to you
regularly with new ideas and pushed
you to think differently, rather than
quarterly update meetings where the
lasting message is “Everything’s fine”?
2. A PROMOTION OF INNOVATION
Do what you have always done, get
what you have always got. How many
joint business planning meetings
have you been in where you have
discussed marketing budget, NPD…
and so on. When was the last time
someone came to you with a truly
innovative and inspirational new idea
to make your business more efficient,
attractive or successful? Diversity
brings a variety of backgrounds,
experience and expectations together
to form new ideas. Small to medium
enterprises are more agile, flexible and
faster than their larger counterparties.
A study by CPI for example identified
that small businesses generate 14
times more patents per employee head
than large ones. Why wouldn’t you
want to tap into that?
3. DRIVES A COMPETITIVE PRICING
MARKET BASED ON REAL DIFFERENCES
AND NOT JUST A RACE TO THE BOTTOM
When sourcing you will take multiple
things into consideration, but price
can’t be ignored. A bidding war is
one way to reduce prices. Another is
smart, fiercely competitive businesses
finding their own way to reduce
overheads and make the product
leaner and more efficient. The drive
for innovation is key and a more
diverse supplier base is motivated
to keep innovating and improving
costs. You also can’t ignore the added
benefit of being introduced to new
markets, networks and therefore the
likely addition of new customers.
4. YOUR CUSTOMERS EXPECT IT
AND IT SUPPORTS TWO OF THE
THREE KEY PILLARS OF
ORGANIZATIONAL SUSTAINABILITY
Your customers - I don’t care what
industry you’re in, all of them - are
expecting you to be sourcing locally,
sustainably and fairly. Putting the
expectations aside it is one of simple
logic - your customers are diverse,
so why shouldn’t your supply chain
be. The more diversity you find in
your supply chain, the more you will
be able to be flexible and react to a
challenging consumer landscape.
There are three key pillars to
corporate sustainability: environmental
responsibility, employee acceptance
and social acceptance. In order to be
truly accepted by the staff that work
for you and the communities where
you work, you must represent them
and strive to exceed expectations.
Diversity in our communities and our
workforce is obvious. To be seen as
sustainably responsible an organization
must understand that diversity and
embrace it. You can have a direct impact
on social and commercial growth as
well as consumption while promoting
job creation outside of your own
organization. Developing relationships
with small, local or minority businesses
in your geography can have a profound
effect not just on their worlds, but also
your perspectives and that of the people
who do business with you.
I began this article talking about a
disruptive supply chain. Why? Because
no one ever grew while inside their
comfort zone, and the more your supply
chain can push you outside of yours
and make you really think about new or
different ways of doing thing, then the
better the result.
Disruptors have changed the
game across so many markets – just
think discounters, online fashion,
start-ups, virtual workspaces. What
could a disruptive supply chain do
for your business? TNS
11

UNITED
WE STAND
When two titans in the drive for gender equality got
together for a chat, TNS magazine learned how high
EQ, curiosity and moments of sudden clarity can
transform male privilege into male allyship.
Andy Dunn
Andy co-founded
Ecommerce retail sensation,
Bonobos, after graduating from
Stanford University. Named after a
matriarchal chimpanzee, the company specializes
in well-fitting pants for men. After serving as CEO
for 11 years, Andy sold Bonobos to Walmart for
$310 million, and joined the Network of Executive
Women board on their behalf. In 2011 he cofounded
angel investment firm, Red Swan, which invests in
retail and internet companies. Andy has blogged
and written extensively on his own journey of selfawareness
about male privilege, and the role men can
play as allies to women on the path to gender equality.
Lori is a Director of
Learning and Development
for a global consumer company. She
also serves as Regional Officer and Board
Member for Network of Executive Women,
Metro NY Region, a New York-based 800+ member
organization dedicated to the advancement of
women and transforming workplaces through the
power of community. During Lori’s tenure, she has
had responsibility for college outreach, membership,
onboarding, events and mentoring. She is passionate
about the issue of gender differences and inequality
and has been an outspoken advocate of women’s
rights throughout her career.
Lori Stockel
12

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
LORI: Andy, it’s great to be chatting
to you today on a subject that’s so
important to both of us. Without
wishing to start on a downer, let me
set the scene with a reality check.
Despite the fact that women represent
over 50% of the population, The World
Economic Forum’s December 2019
report states that gender parity in the
workplace will not be achieved for
100 years. Although the trajectory
is improving, it’s staggering. And it
gets gloomier because the
numbers are even worse
when it comes to female
leaders – there are just
33 female CEOs in the
Fortune 500 today, and
only two of them are
women of color.
So, there is certainly
work to do. The good news
is it’s no longer debated
whether this is good
for business, and many
organizations are making efforts to
improve with systematic approaches.
But the question remains, how do we
get there? I strongly believe male allies
can kickstart the change that’s needed,
and I applaud you for being one. Can
you explain what it means?
ANDY: Hey Lori. Great to be speaking
to you too. It might help if I also set
the scene about me and my journey.
Let’s start on International Women’s
Day, 2017. I was due to speak in front
of 5,000 people about the journey for
women’s advancement in the workplace
which, frankly, was terrifying – a man
speaking about gender in front of an
audience full of women…what could
possibly go wrong?
But I thought I had the perfect
story to tell about my maternal
grandmother. She was married at 12,
had miscarriages at 13 and 14, two kids
at the ages of 15 and 16, 7 surviving
children. The five eldest were all girls,
the middle one being my mum, who
was born in a refugee town in Pakistan
at the time of partition.
I thought this beautifully explained
my passion for gender equality - having
a grandmother only educated to 6th
grade, culturally raped as a child, who
had no choice whatsoever in her life. I
remember asking her shortly before she
passed away what age she’d have chosen
to have children. She said probably 30
or 35 would have been about right...
So, yeah, I was pretty pleased
when I told Manuela, my wife, about
the plan for my speech. But she was
horrified and said, “I don’t want to
be compared to a child bride! That’s
not useful. It’s way too extreme.” Um,
wait..what? She explained: “What I’m
“My viewpoint is that to
become a male ally, you have
to get to benevolent outrage.
fighting for, what I want, is what you
have. I want male privilege. I want
to be listened to even when what I’m
saying isn’t particularly awesome.
I want to be accepted as a leader
without a fight. I want to sometimes
be mediocre and still have power.”
Her words completely reframed the
way I thought about the issue. And she
laid down a challenge – why not write
about all the times you’ve got it wrong
in our relationship?
LORI: Manuela is smart! So did you?
ANDY: Well, yes, I did. I wrote until
5:00 a.m. the next morning, called
my story Swimming in Privilege,
sent it straight to my CEO and asked
him whether I could publish it. He
responded within five minutes and
said, yes – and then I talked about it to
the group of women. After that I was
invited to join the board of Network of
Executive Women [NEW].
That was the beginning of my
education on what it’s like to be a
woman. I spent the next two years
just sitting and hearing women talk
about their experiences. One module
at a conference I attended particularly
resonated with me – it was on women
getting promoted after they’ve
proven themselves, and men getting
promoted prior to that same proof.
Then I realized – I’m doing this! I had
a female executive who I’d told I’d
promote once she’d done xyz. But I
had a male one who I’d promoted to
CEO without those conditions. I went
on to have probably ten or so of those
“Aha!” moments.
Once I had them, I went from paying
lip service, vaguely curious, to being
immersively aware, then to
being outraged – “I can’t
believe this is the shit you
deal with every day!”
So my viewpoint is
that to become a male
ally, you have to get to
benevolent outrage. For
women, people of color,
intersectionality - you
have to be outraged at
the structural inequality
they face, to feel you
are empowered, and then, finally,
responsible. I am no longer a bystander.
I am part of the challenge and I need
to flip it on its head to move towards
equality. And we won’t be there until
252 of the fortune 500 companies have
female CEOs.
LORI: That’s an amazing story. I loved
hearing about the stepping stones you
went through – starting with discomfort
and fear, getting past that, and then
having epiphanies on the reality of
what institutional biases are out there.
And from there your awareness really
translated into a passion to talk about
it – to have outreach and change
mindsets. Now I see you are almost
evangelical. So, from the perspective of
an evangelist, what are the things we
can do as an organization, or as a father
or a husband, to help break down these
biases?
ANDY: One of my favorite ways is to
call people in, not call them out. It’s
useful for someone to tell me that
they are disappointed in me if I’ve got
something wrong. An example of that,
for me personally, is social time outside
of work. When I took inventory of all
the hours of dinners and drinks and
13

time I’d spent socializing with my
colleagues, I realized that 90% of those
hours were with men. But I hadn’t seen
it. When I mentioned it to my senior
female execs, they were like – oh yes –
and confirmed it.
To women I say, you have an
opportunity to change that. We
have to get comfortable with having
uncomfortable conversations – to
increase awareness, but not guilt-trip
or blame.
And as guys, we have to get a lot
more curious. Curiosity is bred through
spending time hearing about other
people’s experiences. My dream is to
bring 20 mid-senior male executives to
the NEW forum. They can spend 3 days
– just 1% of their year – hearing this
topic. You need to do a
year of listening before
these realizations will
dawn on you.
Let me give
you an example of
curiosity. Just recently
I decided I wanted to
support the US airline
industry in these
tough times. I was
interested in Delta.
But I looked at their
leadership team and
11 out of 12 leaders were men.
I decided not to buy stock – because
I was curious and checked.
I’m also a big believer in change
through laws, because let’s face it, no
powerful majority has ever voluntarily
ceded control to a minority.
LORI: Indeed! You mentioned women
having the courage to have those
uncomfortable conversations. But the
person receiving the feedback needs
to have the humility and EQ for it to
be absorbed in a way that’s productive.
Too many women in my age group
have found those conversations don’t
go over very well, and I’ve seen women
suffer as a result of that courage and
have to step back.
ANDY: Right. What do you think is the
answer, given so many people in power
are non-humble, non-EQ-aware white
guys? How do they change?
LORI: You have to give them a reason
to be curious. It can boil down to
a conversation about, what do you
expect for your daughter, when she’s
advancing in career, academics, sports
– what would you want for her? And
what about your wife, sister, mother?
Sometimes it sticks when it’s closer to
home. Having a personal connection
or an experience can help set a path
for men to influence the dynamics for
gender equality, and it’s exciting for
everyone when it happens.
ANDY: I totally agree. That’s why
the male ally is so interesting. And
I’m fortunate to have that personal
perspective you talk about – growing up
biracially, dealing with a mental health
“Having a personal connection or
an experience can help set a path
for men to influence the dynamics
of gender equality.
vulnerability, having a wife who’s an
immigrant, a mother-in-law who’s a
feminist anthropologist. The deck was
stacked for me to move to “woke”.
LORI: Right! Achieving that level of
self-awareness for some is so tough.
Even the phrase male privilege is
polarizing and potentially harmful,
putting men on the defensive. But, if
you give our future male CEOs mentors
who give them that perspective and
explain the potential harm institutional
bias can breed - that could be powerful.
And then we can pave the way for
CEOs who facilitate a less traditional
path to the top for women. We benefit
from more diversity of thought,
backgrounds and gender…resulting in
better business results!
ANDY: I love that idea of a nontraditional
path to the C suite. That’s
partly why I’m excited that I now invest
in entrepreneurs in at least a 50:50 ratio
of women to men – well, actually it’s
more women, because for me we have
to distort our energy and attention
as sponsors now. The problem with
entrepreneurship is that 90% of venture
capitalists are men. And only 3% of
founding CEOs are women – even in
Silicon Valley. I believe the DNA of a
company should reflect diversity from
the beginning, so that’s what my VC
firm Red Swan is trying to build with
the start-ups it invests in.
LORI: Absolutely! I have a daughter
who’s just graduated college, and I
don’t want her to experience gender
inequities. When you’re at the top
Andy, you can help create a level playing
field for women. Your
ability to influence at
this point is so much
greater than mine - your
role as a VC and having
conversations about
criteria could create
seismic change and help
collapse the depressing
projection of 99 years
before there’s gender
equality on boards. It’s
huge that you are even
thinking about things
like that. Lastly, before we go, I want to
ask you specifically about negotiation.
What role does it play in this area?
ANDY: OK, I began with a story and
I’ll end with one too. It’s about a
female executive I knew who was in
a negotiation over the terms of her
promotion with her company, a large
retailer. She had a strong sense of what
she wanted. But the discussions weren’t
going well. Her male counterpart said
to her – I know what you’re going for
and I’m impressed. But come back
tomorrow and let’s do it again. She
came back, got the promotion and a
big raise. That really stuck with me.
Negotiation isn’t easy. If it’s not going
well, we have to have permission to
come back and do it again. It’s the
same with conversations about gender
equality and diversity. There has to be
an environment of open-mindedness,
and permission to start over if things
don’t go right the first time. TNS
14

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
I did it my way
What does it take to ascend the corporate ladder when you work in a
sector in which you are a minority, particularly at leadership level?
We spoke to three professionals who have done just that to find out.
DR. VALENTINA SERRA-HOLM
Vice President Global Product Marketing at
Calumet Specialty Products and President of
the Union of the European Lubricants Industry
Although today
based in
Stockholm, Dr.
Valentina Serra-Holm began
her journey in a small town in
northern Italy where traditional
gender roles were firmly entrenched.
“Studying and being an intellectual was not really
something that was encouraged,” she recalls. But this
didn’t stop her from trying. In fact, as a child, she
stuffed her dresser so full of books that it collapsed.
At that point, Valentina’s parents realized her thirst for
learning was not a fad, and they invested in a bookshelf.
The parental frustration with her desire to break
the traditional mold came from a source that may be
surprising. As Valentina explains, “It was my mother
that had this entrenched view of me becoming a good
housewife. My father was more open-minded. When
I decided to study, he was supportive, and he had no
problem with me choosing engineering. Thanks to him,
I was able to pursue something that I loved, something
technical. From there, my confidence grew.”
A technical education presented challenges outside
of the home as well. At her university, the engineering
building only had male restrooms. It was a 15-minute
walk each way from her classrooms to the closest
women’s facilities, making it impossible to get back and
forth during the allotted break times.
Valentina credits her resilience and toughness to
these early obstacles. “Growing up in a male-dominated
environment, studying engineering in Italy, forced me to
develop thicker skin,” she says. And she sees this thicker
skin as essential when operating in a non-diverse world.
“This may not be popular, but it’s mostly women that are
self-limiting. You must deal with prejudice. If you don’t
allow that to get to you, and you continue to be who you
are, then the only obstacle you have is yourself. Nothing
is perfect. You are given a certain set of skills in life,
and then it’s up to you what you want to do with those.
Instead of being miserable about something that might
be a disadvantage, you need to just accept the situation
and then develop a strategy based on that.”
In fact, Valentina believes that most gender
discrimination is not necessarily intentional, and often
is simply subconscious. She gives a recent example, in
which a colleague was introducing a group of visitors
and referenced all the men’s full names and titles, but for
the one woman in the group, he just gave her first name.
He was corrected immediately by Dr. Serra-Holm, and
when approached about this afterward, was unaware
that he had done anything wrong.
So if we accept the hypothesis that diversity issues
are, on the whole, unintentional, the question is: how
do we improve the situation? Valentina has a few ideas,
and says that firstly, change starts with us. “When my
children were younger, my daughter loved playing with
toy tractors and cars, and my son loved playing with
household items like vacuums. Let people be who they
are. It’s up to us to shape the world that we want, and if
we want more diversity in less diverse sectors, we need
to encourage people to pursue their areas of interest
from a very young age.”
Second, government policy helps. Valentina was
able to balance work and family life with the support of
the Swedish government. For example, Sweden offers
12-month paid family leave for both men and women,
and childcare is inexpensive. This allows women to avoid
having to make a choice between growing their career
and raising their family. Of course, this level of support
does not exist in all countries, but many companies
are adopting similar leave policies and daycare
opportunities. In sectors where a lack of diversity is
creating challenges, policies like these are imperative.
Onto the third point: resilience. “If you are a high
performer, you are a high performer, regardless of
gender,” Dr. Serra-Holm says. “If being a woman was a
disadvantage, I haven’t noticed it because I’ve been too
busy working.”
The Negotiation Society

JEFFREY KROGH
Managing Director, BNP Paribas Corporate
and Institutional Banking
Jeffrey has an
impressive pedigree
in diversity, having
been an Executive
Role Model in the
OUTstanding 100
LGBT+ Executives list
since its inception. His
journey has been eventful. As
he describes, “I started working
as a graduate in Denmark and
came out to my team after a few
months. It wasn’t a problem, and
when I moved to work in the UK as an
analyst I assumed it would not be a problem
either.” But he goes on, “In 1998 I was advised
that it was ‘not common’ to be open in the UK
– so not a problem exactly, but ‘not common’.”
Jeffrey recalls that his boss at that time was quite
religious, and so to come out in his first week of
probation did not seem a smart career move. He
then kept his sexuality a secret for many years
- not lying per se, but never being fully open,
despite that boss departing and there being no real
reason for the lack of openness.
All of that changed when Jeffrey got married in
his lunch break. “I told my colleagues, ‘I’m going
for lunch and I’m going to be a while…’ So we
had our civil partnership ceremony followed by a
“Being sincere and not being
afraid about disclosing who you
are can help in a negotiation
because it builds trust.
lunch with family and friends. And then I sent an
email to colleagues to tell them!”
It seems remarkable now that such discretion
would have needed to be in place. But the world
has evolved, with Jeffrey both observer and active
player within it. He has been an ambassador for
the LGBT+ community since starting a network
within BNP Paribas ten years ago, and has also,
along the way, built a very successful career in
banking. I want to know how much, in reality,
things have in fact changed – is it systemic or
just cosmetic? Jeffrey is clear: “Things really are
different now. If I was 26 today and joined as an
Associate, I would not have hesitated to be open at
the office.” Even if he’d had the same boss? Again,
Jeffrey is emphatic. “Yes, absolutely. I would simply
have more confidence about what is acceptable,
plus I’d have a more organized and better support
network in place.”
Jeffrey is a powerful figure within the LGBT+
and banking world, and I’m interested in the
parallel with negotiation, since power almost
always has an impact. But Jeffrey prefers to
use the term “respected” – and explains that
in representing a minority, he has received
recognition from people he would otherwise not
have had a high profile with. As he says, “People
have come forward and applauded my efforts.”
When I ask how, or even whether, his sexuality
influences his negotiation style, the answer is
not so clear cut. “Sexuality is different to some
other diversity categories such as ethnicity or
gender, because you can hide it if you choose to.”
But fundamentally, he believes that being open
and honest engenders trust, which is important
in relationships and of course negotiations.
“Everyone has a different style of negotiating –
some are aggressive; others hate that approach.
Either way, being sincere and not being afraid
about disclosing who you are can help in a
negotiation because it builds trust.”
In terms of building relationships, Jeffrey
observes that, “You just click with some people
better than others,” and he admits he’s been
surprised to see his assumptions on who he will
click with challenged at times. But that “click”
is so crucial to collaboration, a critical skill
in negotiation. I came away with the distinct
impression that Jeffrey’s own ability to build
relationships, trust and achieve that “click” with
many different kinds of counterparty is one of his
most important assets when negotiating.
Richard Boyle

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
TATIANA SLEPOVA
Director, UK Banking, HSBC
As a founder of the Women Leadership and
Gender Diversity club at HSBC UK for
Global Banking, Tatiana is perfectly placed
to discuss the diversity issues that her sector has
faced and is now grappling with. For women in
banking, there is a well-documented “double glass
ceiling”, in which while there are 38 per cent of
women reaching middle management, far fewer
are able to ascend again to executive roles. When
we speak, I put it to Tatiana that banking has
not got a great record for retention of women in
their mid to late 30s. Tatiana agrees, and primarily
attributes this to the fact that not many women
are returning to banking after having children or
taking a career break.
And why would they? As Tatiana explains,
“The very traditional environments that we see
in Investment Banking has not been conducive
to being able to successfully strike an acceptable
work/life balance. There was not enough support
available for
those with caring
responsibilities, and
individuals were
not encouraged
to continue
building their
careers alongside
balancing a family
life. Nor did they
feel the courage to
have meaningful
conversations which would allow any flexibility
to long hours.” It’s hardly surprising then that
many women opted not to return to the same job
or industry once they’d had a child - and those
who did faced obstacles that impacted their career
aspirations as a result. This drop off in numbers,
coupled with inflexibility, is inevitably one of the
reasons that fewer women were reaching senior
roles, and even fewer senior revenue-generating
roles, in the industry.
But things are changing. Today, as Tatiana tells
me, “Diversity and Inclusion (D&I) is part of
the culture at HSBC. It’s acknowledged now as a
high-profile business imperative which is getting
a lot of coverage and attention, and this not only
raises knowledge and awareness, but also promotes
it as a force for doing good business.”
Tatiana herself has taken center stage at HSBC
in supporting and promoting D&I, having led two
programs that championed it. Encouragingly, she
has seen a tremendous shift and believes changes
have accelerated
over the past three
years. A huge and
fundamental advancement
has been an openness in having
“returning to work” conversations. Tatiana
says, “This shift in culture has allowed women
to let go of the fear of asking, and they now feel
encouraged
and
empowered
to grow their
career with the
guidance of
their managers.
This is not
exclusive to
HSBC, but
applies to
the entire
industry.” As a result, parent-friendly working
patterns that include increased flexibility in
working hours, shared parental leave, working
from home, four-day weeks, and job sharing, are
becoming more and more common.
This cultural shift has empowered women
to feel more open to negotiating for what they
want and feel is right. This is significant, not least
because, as Tatiana notes, “While negotiating on
behalf of their organizations, women can be very
effective and efficient, with little to differentiate
them from their male counterparts.” But she
believes the ongoing challenge is that, “When
women negotiate on behalf of their own interests
they are less successful. Yes, women have been
empowered in the workplace and been given more
opportunities and options than ever before. It’s
key to allow yourself to take this opportunity and
benefit from this newfound empowerment during
negotiations.”
“[Women] now feel
encouraged and empowered
to grow their career with the
guidance of their managers.
Marina Falisi TNS

18

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Alistair White meets Asia-Pacific consulting head, Wai Lau, and discovers
how he’s made a virtue out of a life steeped in difference.
Do you remember the punk rock
movement back in the 1970s? Maybe
you didn’t live through it, but I am
sure you have heard of it. If not, just
type punk rock into Google Images
and you’ll get the picture. I remember
watching a TV interview with a teenage
girl who had gelled her hair in spikes
and pierced her cheeks with safety pins. She was asked
what had motivated her to do this. “To be different, just
like everyone else”, was her response. My 17-year-old brain
struggled with that one; so, you don’t want to be the same as
everyone else, you want to be different, and you are achieving
that by doing something that lots of other people are doing
so that you can be the same as them?
I recalled this incident after I had spoken with Wai Lau,
the head of our Asia-Pacific’s consulting operation, and
I’ll explain why later. But let me tell you more about Wai
first. Let’s start with
pronunciation. His name
is pronounced like the
question “Why?,” not
“Way,” and he’ll be the
first to tell you he’s heard
all the jokes.
Wai was born in Hong
Kong but emigrated
to Southern California
when he was old enough
to remember, but young
enough to still view
every plane ride as an
adventure. His family deliberately chose not to settle in a
neighbourhood with many Chinese immigrants, but instead
set up home in a city where, as Wai says, “My cousins and I
were the only non-white kids on the street.” Understandably,
his family wanted Wai and his generation to integrate into
US society and make the most of the opportunities their new
host country had to offer.
And yet, from my conversation with Wai, I get an
inescapable impression that this decision had a fundamental
and profound influence on the way that he sees himself and
the world around him. As he talks about this period in his
life, he says something that stops me in my tracks: “You learn
about racism really early.” Something in the way he said it
deterred me from asking for more details, but I couldn’t stop
myself thinking about the memories and experiences that
lurk beneath that blunt, matter-of-fact statement and the
impact they may have had on a young boy growing up in a
foreign country. How formative was that?
“I have always had a strong sense of myself as ‘different’ or
‘other’ ”, Wai replies. And again I get the sense that there
is much he could tell me, but he is carefully deciding what
to disclose and what to keep to himself. “When I’m in the
U.S. I’m not American enough for Americans, and when I’m
here in Hong Kong, I’m not Chinese enough for Chinese.”
So where are you from Wai, where is home? A smile,
“Nowhere, everywhere. Depends who’s asking.” I think to
myself, is he being evasive? No. Difficult? No, certainly not.
Deliberately elusive? Possibly. Mischievous? Yes. Enigmatic?
Certainly. There is an old saying in negotiation that you only
value what you have to work hard for, and Wai is making
me work for insight and information. Not in a belligerent or
obstructive way, more playfully. I wonder after our interview
whether this is what drew him to consultancy, challenging
people to think for themselves, prompting them to come up
with their own solutions.
But, back to our conversation. “From an early age, I came
to the realization that
one of my roles in
life is to be a bridge
– bridging the gap
between people.”
“So where are you from Wai, where
is home? “Nowhere, everywhere.
Depends who’s asking.”
He told me of an
episode in his early
career when he was
asked to translate
and facilitate for the
president of a Chinese
company seeking to
conclude a deal with
a US importer. The
president, an elderly man, wanted someone to interpret for
him and generally chaperone him on his trip to what was,
for him, a foreign country. Wai agreed and recalls, “The
buyers tried every trick in the book on him – put him up
in a cheap motel, no phone, no internet. They invited him
to the swanky hotel where they were staying and made him
wait. They used every negotiation tactic known to man.”
For Wai, born into a Chinese family, this was discourteous,
“I felt bad. The guy didn’t deserve this and I know he felt
I could have helped him more, so then I felt doubly bad.”
The deal was eventually signed, and to everyone’s surprise,
the seemingly monolingual president revealed at the end of
the negotiation that he could speak excellent English after
all. The incident made an impression on Wai and, to this
day, he often “doesn’t advertise” the fact that he understands
Chinese. This formative lesson in negotiation would come
to serve Wai and his clients well years later when he joined
The Gap Partnership.
19

He looks back on this incident as one that
had a deep influence on his future career, and
he returns to his theme of being a “bridge.” He
learned the value of “bridging” East and West and
realised that, because of his upbringing, he had an
innate skillset that he has used professionally ever
since. In the early 2000s, Wai spent a year teaching
English in Tianjin, China, a megalopolis with a
population of 1.5 million, situated 100 km southeast,
and in the shadow of, Beijing. Even then, he
could see the opportunities in a rapidly developing
China. “I remember on one of my first days there
walking down a semi-paved road and seeing an
ox-drawn cart coming one way and a black S600
Mercedes with tinted windows going the other
way. The contrast was stark, and for me it summed
up where China could get to.”
Wai was hired by The Gap Partnership in the
USA in 2011 and moved shortly afterwards to
our Hong Kong office to play a leading role in
the development of our Asia business. The irony
of the situation is not lost on him. “My family
moved from Hong Kong to the US to pursue
opportunities, and 30 years later I made the move
in the opposite direction for the same reasons.”
Wai is pragmatic rather than sentimental about
the move; he doesn’t feel a particular sense of
fulfilment in returning to his birthplace or, at least,
he doesn’t tell me if he does. Instead, to explain
his professional and personal motivations for
returning to Hong Kong, he reminds me of what
Willie Sutton, a career criminal in 1930s and ‘40s
New York, said when a newspaper reporter asked
why he robbed banks - “Because that’s where the
money is.” Duh.
Let’s go back to the punk rock girl at the start
of the article. She made a voluntary choice, not
a chance that everyone gets. She said wanted to
be different. But she didn’t really, she wanted to
be the same as all the people she mixed with. She
didn’t have the first clue about “different”. What
struck me about my conversation with Wai was –
here is a guy for whom being different is the story
of his life. He had no choice in the matter, it was
imposed upon him as a child, and I don’t doubt
that it was a source of stress at the time. What
impressed me about Wai was the way he has
understood and embraced his difference, wherever
he is in the world, and celebrates it as a personal
asset. As we barrel headlong into the “new normal”
where nations increasingly turn inwards, and the
globalized system of the last two decades stands at
risk of fracturing, I find myself wondering whether
we’d be better off if more of humanity shared a
similar mindset.
Wai Lau, choosing difference to make
a difference. TNS
20

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Hana Natour tells the incredible story of how as a
student she set up a diversity initiative that attracted
royal attention, and how that same appreciation of
difference powers her career today.
21

I
was born a fifth child to a big
family, so my understanding of
the power of diversity started
early. I was an accomplished mimic,
and imitating my siblings made me
recognise how different they were. And
perhaps more profoundly, I realized that
their differences were what made us a
great family unit. We each had different
strengths that complemented each
other. I became challenged and inspired
by their contributions, and stepped
back to think about what I could bring
by authentically being myself.
I carried these observations from
home to my school environment. Being
a Jordanian in Saudi Arabia, I stood
out because of my accent and my looks.
This could have left me feeling isolated.
Instead it brought out the warrior
in me. I felt it was my mission to
complement the community I was part
of, and to unleash my full potential. If
we all do, we would all live a million lives
through simply experiencing each other.
At university I met so many different
and stimulating people, either through
“I felt it was my mission to
complement the community
I was part of, and to unleash
my full potential.
socializing or sports, two fields where
the concept of diversity was front and
centre. As many young students are, we
were frustrated with the opportunities
ahead of us and compared ourselves to
more developed countries. We began
to ask the question, “When will things
change for us?” Gradually the question
evolved to, “What change can we make
for the next generation?”
We identified two major issues. First,
only 45% of the population can speak
English, but we lack Arabic scientific
resources. Second, the educational
system isn’t designed to promote creative
thinking, or a passion for science.
Myself and a group of my fellow
students took it upon ourselves to
change that. We set up a science club
called Phi – the golden ratio – and
embarked on two projects. The first
we named Phi Nova – with Nova
meaning a transient astronomical event
that causes the sudden appearance of
a bright, apparently “new” star. This
focused on the translation of articles
and scientific research, and the creation
of engaging scientific video content
in Arabic. Our goal was to engage
with Jordanian youth and enrich the
resources available by taking away
the burden of language: we believed
that science and knowledge should be
available to everyone, with all minds
respected and given the opportunity
to thrive and develop.
Our second project, which I took
a lead role in, we named Phi Quarks
- Quark standing for a type of
elementary particle and a fundamental
constituent of matter. This was about
giving children the opportunity to
think freely. We were passionate
about what they can inspire in us
adults, as much as what we can add to
their experience of education. It was
mesmerizing to see
a variety of ages,
social and financial
classes all come
together and unite in
one purpose, learning
and becoming more
engaged with a bigger
world around us.
As we grew, so
did our ambition:
we wanted to become a non-profit
organization in Jordan. The first
answer was no, but an ambitious
person knows that no is an invitation
for a negotiation. We were shooting
for the stars, so we reached out to
HRH Queen Rania AL Abdulla
as we knew that developing youth
was a top priority for her. I had the
incredible privilege to personally
meet the Queen and take her on our
journey, highlighting our achievements
and explaining our ambitions. She
supported our project and opened
a door for revolution.
Phi expanded and its ambitions
became realizable. Today it’s a nonprofit
organization with a vision
to create a passionate community
about science, education and applied
innovation research among youth in the
Arab region. With an estimated 8,000+
beneficiaries, 45+ scientific digital
content and 70,000 followers on social
media and growing, I’m immensely
22
Queen Rania of Jordan meets with
Hana to discuss the Phi Institute

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Hana teaching science to a
group of young children
proud of what I helped to create and
launch.
I made the choice to move on to
my next life challenge and join the
corporate word. As I began to knock
on corporate doors, I hadn’t appreciated
that my journey in diversity was yet to
become bigger.
I joined Nestle Jordan as a junior
accountant. But one day I was
challenged by the leadership team
to become the first female in their
sales department, introducing gender
equality and living up to the Nestle
DARE culture (Diversity, Attitude,
Responsibility and Excellence). It
was an account management role,
dealing with the second biggest
retailer in Jordan and managing a
team of merchandisers. Living in a
male-dominated culture and joining
an even more male-dominated field,
I didn’t hesitate – the opportunity to
drive change was too good to refuse.
So I took the job and became the first
saleswoman in the field in Jordan across
the industry.
I was keenly aware that a whole
heap of stereotypes and discriminations
would be thrown on me, and in truth I
probably matched most of it! I was just
23 years old, multilingual, fresh from
university, a woman, trying to make it in
a role that had been run and mastered by
my exact opposite for years and years.
I knew that demonstrating my
greatest values and living up to my full
potential was my only option. I drew
upon the principles of negotiation
to guide my behavior. I listened
carefully to what my counterparts
feared and expected. I played my game
their way, and in their heads became
something different, not someone
different. I simply needed to learn
how to wear the negotiation jacket!
At the same time as mastering the
sales and account management basics,
I ran English Saturdays with my
team to help develop their language
skills, building a space for more
females to feel safe and join in.
I left Jordan and Nestle a year-and-a
half later. By that time there were four
female account managers from different
companies, and we had built a culture
of trust, respect and professionalism.
The all-male merchandising team
who had begun by being my biggest
challenge, had ended by becoming my
greatest support.
So where next? This brings my
diversity
journey
up to the
present
time. I
moved to
a global
technology
company in
Australia as
a national
account
executive
two-anda-half
years ago.
Stepping off
the plane, I felt like a hatchling. Both
the company and I were betting on how
quickly and efficiently I would be able
to open my eyes and spread my wings.
But I had a good feeling about
the company. I had gone through the
interview process overseas and was
amazed and delighted by how I was
measured and judged solely on my
set of skills. It wasn’t easy, but it was
possible because of the incredible
people and culture. Today I work with
a highly skilled and professional team
where I am assessed based on the value
that I bring, under the leadership of
people from every background and
ethnicity. I feel accepted, and more
importantly nurtured, to become who
I aspire to be. In Sydney, everyone is
looking to belong, and the different
goals, accents, looks, colors and
journeys create a sense of
togetherness. It’s a home that I’ve
never been to before.
I’ve been lucky to have found
opportunities where my uniqueness
can flourish, and to experience the
art of being grounded outside my
comfort zone. I relish the magic of
relatedness, and the amusement of
unexpected experiences resulting from
the variability of humans.
When we hear the word diversity,
we often think about being accepted
and appreciated for who we are. Yet we
shouldn’t forget about accepting and
putting ourselves out there. I believe
that it is on us as much as on the
community to bring diversity to life.
We are all paint palettes, with different
colors within us. Once we understand
our own strengths, it is a thrilling
journey to unapologetically put them
into action. TNS
Hana leads a Phi Quarks class
23

MAKING
GENDER EQUALITY
BUSINESS
AS USUAL
Although there is still work to be done in the fight for
gender equality, there have been some fantastic initiatives
that call for celebration. Eva-Maria Baumer, VP of
Corporate Engagement at Mastercard, lays it on the line.
T
he world is full of brilliant
opportunities, but they are not
always open to everyone. The
truth is that too much of our world has
been designed without women in mind
and without women involved. Even
today, inequality and exclusion are still
holding women back. In fact, they hold
us all back.
The imbalance of opportunities
and equality is often exacerbated
through policies and laws. As a recent
study on the progress of the world’s
women highlighted, there are still
some countries where women are
not allowed to inherit property or are
required by law to obey their husbands
(UN Women, 2019). What’s more,
almost half of the world’s economies
legally restrict women’s decisions to
join or remain in the labour force (The
World Bank, 2019). And it doesn’t stop
here. Diversity of thought, gender and
ethnicity has still not found its way
into the boardrooms and leadership
positions of corporates. While it’s true
that some progress has been made in
the UK with upwards of 30% of women
on FTSE 100 boards, why are only a
paltry 5% of CEOs women?
An ongoing lack of diversity and
inclusion could have a significant
negative impact on how we design the
world for the next generation. In an
age in which artificial intelligence will
perform more and more human tasks,
we must ensure we eliminate data bias
to avoid gender stereotypes. What do
I mean by data bias? Well, take a 2016
study looking at word embeddings
trained on Google News articles: it
found that the vector analogy, “man is
to computer programmer as woman
is to x”, was completed with x =
homemaker (Forbes, 2020).
As a woman in business, findings
24

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
such as these lead me to ask myself
if we are still reduced to being
the main caregiver in families?
Shouldn’t we have reached a stage
where men are equally involved with
taking care of their families? I think
so, and happily there is evidence
– and data - that suggest we are
moving in the right direction. For
example, Mastercard offers four
months of maternity and two
months of paternity leave as a global
standard, and 80% of my male
colleagues with newborns gladly
take it. Now, Mastercard is looking
into unifying parental leave for both
men and women to create a more
level playing field.
Education plays a key role, too.
Mastercard would like to bring
more girls into STEM (Science,
Technology, Engineering and
Mathematics) subjects to ensure
that we design a world that works
for everyone. Our Girls4Tech
program has already inspired more
than 800,000 girls in 27 countries to
enjoy and study subjects such as AI
or cyber security.
The good news is that more and
more businesses are waking up to
the fact that pushing for gender
balance is not only the right thing
to do, it also makes good business
sense. Ultimately, women represent
a significant customer base who
make up to 80% of day-to-day
purchase decisions but are still
not served appropriately. Global
consulting firm Oliver Wyman
estimated in 2019 that the financial
industry alone is leaving a revenue
opportunity of $700B on the table
by not fully meeting the needs of
women consumers.
In order to seize this opportunity
fully and affect change, businesses
need to think about three questions:
how to support their own people,
how to impact the market through
their products and programs, and
how to drive change in society
through public-private partnerships.
From a people perspective,
culture trumps everything. Having
diverse perspectives represented and
fostering an inclusive environment
where people feel they have a seat
at the table is critical. This needs
to come from the top with senior
management leading the charge.
Equal pay for equal work is
one driver for inclusive growth. In
addition, having balanced slates
to increase a diverse pool of job
candidates and active succession
planning can help move the needle.
Mastercard is also working
with its customers to co-create
products that better serve women’s
needs. Through our own research
with over 40,000 people, we know
that women are just as financially
confident as men, taking greater
control of their finances and seeking
greater simplicity and stability.
This global segmentation study has
informed our product development
framework and together with
our customers we aim to design
solutions that transform women’s
access to and experience of finance.
We also run the Mastercard
Index of Women Entrepreneurs,
a global initiative tracking the
progress and achievement of
women business owners across
58 markets, highlighting the
significance of geography in female
entrepreneurship. Unsurprisingly,
the study shows that female business
owners are doing better in highincome,
advanced economies that
provide highly enabling conditions.
No one can push the envelope
alone. We need support from other
public and private organizations
that help challenge the status quo,
influence key stakeholders and
negotiate to achieve positive change.
Some campaigns that are driving
change are the 30% Club, which
works with organizations to help
leaders drive culture change, or the
Financial Alliance for Women,
which rallies financial institutions
to better serve the women’s market.
UN Women advocates for improved
policies and living conditions. And
there are many more organizations
out there doing important work in
this area, because there is still so
much more work for us to do.
I’m privileged to work at a
“My mission is to create a world
designed with women in mind and
women involved.
company where my day-to-day job
is to influence key stakeholders
to drive gender balance from a
business perspective at large scale
– within the company and beyond.
Our mission is to create a world
designed with women in mind and
women involved. And that does
not mean men versus women – it’s
men and women. Because a world
that works better for women creates
limitless possibilities for us all.
Join us on the journey! TNS
Mastercard's
Girls4Tech
programme
inspires girls in
STEM subjects
25

WORK
LIFE
BALANCE
NEGOTIATING THE PERFECT BLEND
The concept of work life balance has been around since the 1970s, but
achieving it can be elusive. We asked two high-achieving professionals
how they manage their lives to get as good a blend as possible between
their careers and their families, and what negotiation tips they would give
to others looking to achieve the same.
DIANNA OWEN
Senior Director EMEA Employee Relations, Oracle
It may be a cliché, but I strive to
give 110% to everything that I
do, whether at home or work.
Managing my work life balance is
therefore critically important to
enable me to deliver in all areas
of my life. But that doesn’t mean
every day has to be graded a 10!
I had a great mentor who taught
me that – some days are going to
be a three, and that’s ok.
I chose to take six months’
maternity leave for both my
children. I went to Germany
shortly after my first and a
colleague said, “I’m sorry for
asking but is everything ok at
home? You’ve had to come back
after 6 months!” I reassured her
everything was fine, that this
was my plan and what I wanted.
Of course I had a plan B, if for
example my child didn’t like
nursery, but I was able to stick
to plan A. In fact, interestingly,
one of the reasons why mothers
are away so long in Germany
after having a baby is because
the nursery infrastructure doesn’t
provide for childcare for very
young children.
I work in a job where a lot is
expected of me. But my family
come first. How do I make it
work? Meticulous, military-style
planning. I plan ahead in monthlong
blocks to ensure, for example,
that I don’t have important calls
that clash with travel or meetings.
My planning incorporates home
26

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
as well as work, so within that I also
have a weekly schedule for my au pair
to ensure my sons get to where they
need to be, whether that’s swimming,
a playdate or nursery. I also build
in working from home. If I didn’t, I
couldn’t do my job.
All of this planning delivers a really
important benefit: it actually allows me
to have spontaneous time. On a Friday
night I’ll get home for around 7pm,
and my neighbor might pop round
unplanned, and we’ll go to the pub for
a drink. These are some of my favourite
times of the week.
But that’s what’s right for me. I’m
very conscious that my team might
look to me as an example. Another
great mentor said to me, you push
yourself hard, be careful of applying
your standard to others – how you do
it is unique to you; how they do it is
unique to them. So I’m very clear that
the example I’m setting is me being my
whole self, and that may not be the way
that someone else should do it.
“Be confident, be
brave. Even if it feels
uncomfortable – use
what we know about
negotiation, and get
comfortable being
uncomfortable.
My negotiation advice for both
men and women to achieve the right
work life blend for them, is think about
what you want, and then have the
conversations you need. Be confident,
be brave. Even if it feels uncomfortable
– use what we know about
negotiation, and get comfortable being
uncomfortable. Do the things The Gap
Partnership training teaches you. Look
at your high value/low cost variables for
you and your employer. Work out how
to trade them to get the solution that’s
right for both of you. Then when you
have what you want, deliver to it!
JESSICA DAVID MARKOWSKI
Sales Director - Convenience and Wholesale,
Budweiser Brewing Group UK &I
When I found out I was
pregnant with my
daughter Lilian, 7 years
ago, I was concerned about what
having a baby would mean for
my career. At the time very few
women in my business returned
from maternity leave. But I knew
I wanted to.
So the first thing I did, early
in my pregnancy, was speak to
HR, followed by the president
and sales director, to outline what
I would want when I returned to
work. After those conversations,
I decided I would return after six
months’ maternity leave. It was
a shorter time than some people
have, sure, but I made a conscious
decision that it would be right
for me, as I didn’t want to lose
momentum in my career.
But how to make it work?
I spoke to my husband about
how we were going to manage
this. To that point we’d not really
had the conversation about what
will happen when, or if, I get
pregnant. Fortuitously, it was
around the time that the UK
government changed the policy
on sharing maternity leave. The
new regulations meant I could
take six months of maternity and
give the other six months to my
husband – with him being paid
as I would have been had I taken
the full year. It was an amazing
opportunity for us and we were
among the first to take advantage
of it – and certainly the first in my
company.
Now I have a second daughter.
We split the maternity leave
for her too, and I’ve also been
promoted. My husband is at
home with the girls while I go
to work full-time. For both of us
it’s been exhilarating. We both
have our roles and we share the
management of the household.
We really are 50/50 – a team. No
one is more responsible for anyone
else. It’s enhanced my life as I
don’t feel guilty, and my husband
and the children are happy.
What’s also great is that
society is changing and it’s
becoming more acceptable for
mothers to work, and fathers to
be the caregiver at home. Equally
businesses are recognizing that
some roles lend themselves to
part-time working. Of course
there’s a lot more to do. But good
employers have adapted their
policies.
What I’ve learned is that
balancing, or blending, work and
life is a constant conversation.
What works for one person isn’t
the right solution for someone
else. My advice to anyone looking
to get the right solution for
them is, firstly, be specific and
understand what you want. Be
transparent in your aspirations.
Second, investigate what is
possible. Put all the positions in
place and make sure you have a
meeting. And third, if you don’t
feel you can go to your employer,
ask someone else who you think
can help you. TNS
27

28

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
SAME
DIFFERENCE
Emma Weare meets ex-ad man turned consultant Torsten Gross, who
shares his thoughts on identity, difference and assumptions – and why
asking questions is one of the most powerful weapons we have.
When Torsten Gross came on stage to
deliver his keynote at The 3% Movement
– an organization with a mission to
address the lack of gender diversity in advertising
– he had a bold opener. First he asked the
audience to put their hand up if they had worked
with somebody black. All hands shot up. He
issued the same request for anyone who had
worked with somebody who’s gay. Again, everyone
raised their hands.
His next invitation was for a show of hands
from those who had worked with someone in a
wheelchair. The thicket of hands thinned to fewer
than ten or so.
And then the punchline – “Put your hand
down if that person was me.”
In this neat piece of audience participation,
Torsten shone a light on one of the most
underrepresented diversity categories in business
today – disability. And, yes, the statistics are
sobering: in the UK it’s estimated that at every
level of qualification, people with disabilities who
want a job are up to three times more likely to be
unemployed than their able-bodied peers; in the
US the employment rate for graduates is 50% for
those with disabilities compared to nearly 90%
for those without. The global data paints a similar
picture. Plus, to get anecdotal again – how many
people in wheelchairs have you worked with?
Torsten himself is a refreshing antidote to the
data and anecdotes. In a wheelchair since a diving
accident on holiday at the age of 15, he enjoyed
a successful decade-long career in advertising
– including heading up J Walter Thompson’s
strategy department and setting up his own
creative shop – before joining Deloitte where he’s
now based in New York as a managing director of
their consulting division.
When we chat, the first thing I ask Torsten
is how he feels about the dichotomy in status
he inhabits: one-part privileged establishment
(white, male, senior); one-part discriminated
against minority (disabled). He’s quick to reject
my verb and adjective choices as unnecessarily
inflammatory. “I wouldn’t go as far as saying
privileged and discriminated against. The truth is
way more nuanced. While it’s true that sometimes
it’s privileged to be a white senior male, sometimes
it’s not. And we really shouldn’t villainize everyone
who’s white, male and senior.”
OK, granted. Forget the incendiary language
– which of those two states do you feel the most
affinity with? Torsten responds thoughtfully. “The
thing is, every time you feel like you identify with
a group, you realise it’s not the perspective of
other people. There might be times where I think
being in a chair really sticks out, only to find out
that people don’t care. Other times when I think
everyone’s treating me normally, I find out later
they couldn’t stop thinking about it and were
worrying about every word they said. It’s amazing
how your ability to judge what others think and
feel can consistently be so badly wrong. It’s just so
hard to guess.”
Torsten brings this to life with a counterintuitive
example from a company training day
he did on diversity at another agency. “They
had men and women of different ethnicities
29

standing next to each other, and asked
“What’s different?” until the point
where you have the most “different”
people standing next to each other.
And we ended up with two white men.
Torsten delivers his keynote at The 3% Movement to shine a light on underrepresented
diversity within the creative industry
Is that diversity? Well actually – yes, it
could be, because you don’t know their
background.”
Yes, but…how to get around
judging on first impressions? We live
in a world that’s not just fast-moving
and visual, but also increasingly
miniaturized with multiple
day-to-day interactions
taking place on a cellphone
screen. What’s more, we’ve
actually evolved to let our
unconscious minds handle
first impressions, freeing
up our conscious mind to
get on with the business of
everything else.
Torsten’s solution is
simple, and old-school
social.
“Ask questions. Have conversations.
Find out about people. All of this
allows you to know versus guess. Asking
questions is such an amazing, powerful
tool. Sometimes we see questions as
aggressive, and I can understand why
someone might feel that way. But if
we see conversations and questions as
interest – you are interested in knowing
about me – that takes away the sting.”
I ask for an example and Torsten
immediately has two. The first is a
wake-up call to anyone who’s ever
assumed something about someone,
but not had the courage to ask them to
verify it. He went for an interview, and
“nailed it”. But the job offer never came.
Years later he bumped into the recruiter
and asked why he’d not got the gig. She
replied, “The job involved travel and I
wasn’t sure you could.”
Of course he could. He’s a frequent
flier on multiple airlines. All she had to
do was ask. But
the wheelchair
meant she felt she
couldn’t.
But Torsten’s
view is that a
willingness to
ask questions
is essential if
we want to
understand and
even embrace
diversity and
difference in the
world around us.
I want to know
whether there
are questions that he wouldn’t like to
be asked. Torsten says, “I can see both
sides of the argument. I haven’t always
been in a wheelchair, so I can’t ever
expect you to know what it’s like to be
me or to be in a chair. Because I didn’t
know what it was like before. Why
“Ask questions. Have conversations.
Find out about people. All of this
allows you to know versus guess.
would I be as obnoxious to think that
the world should know what it’s like?
So – ask me questions.
“It’s why I’m a big proponent of
teaching – I don’t mean like in a
classroom, I mean like helping people
understand what it’s like to be you,
if you’re different to them. But some
people take issue with that. A woman
challenged me on it a few years ago.
She said she was sick and tired of
having to educate those around her
who didn’t understand gender or race
equality. Her point was that there’s
enough information out there already.
Which I have sympathy with. Women
and black people have been oppressed
for generations. I’ve only been in a chair
for 26 years so it’s different for me.”
Torsten has been on the receiving
end of marginalization. He tells me
about an event he attended recently
with his wife, where they were figuring
out the best way to get in with his chair.
“The waitress started speaking, but she
only looked at my wife, saying “He can
go this way”. I said, “I’m right here, you
can speak to me…”
“The way she responded was great.
She said, “You’re right, I’m really
sorry, I shouldn’t have done that.” She
addressed the problem in the moment
and apologized. And we moved on. I
was like, “Dang, that happens to me
every so often, but it’s so rare to have
someone who accepts being wrong
with grace.”
It’s cheering. But Torsten’s next
story illustrates that for all the people
who graciously apologize for illjudged
behavior, there are others who
get it wrong at the other end of the
patronizing scale. “People look at me
and immediately, unconsciously, don’t
think I’m smart. They take me down
a peg. I know this because if I get one
more person who says, after they get to
know me – “You’re an inspiration”’…
I get it all the time
and I hate it. I’m not
an inspiration just
because I can’t walk.
If I am seen as one,
that’s implying I’m
seen as a lesser person
in the first place. You
don’t get inspired
by people who are
average.”
I ask him if he
would take the inspiration compliment
from someone in a wheelchair, and
there’s a pause. He says he likes the
question. Then, after a moment: “Yeah,
I’d take that because we’re on equal
footing. So there’s no looking down
upon.”
Inevitably Torsten’s been involved
in diversity initiatives at work. He
admits he feels a responsibility, despite
not wanting to be “tagged as the guy
in the chair who does the work. But
there are so few people in chairs with
a voice. I can’t speak for everyone in a
chair but I can make people aware of
differences. And I don’t just want to do
that for people in chairs, it should be
for everyone else who wants and needs
a voice.”
30

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Different voices mean different
perspectives and I wonder how
important he sees these in his day-today
job as a consultant. He considers,
and says, “Really important. I think the
reason why you hire out consultants –
other people – is because they come
with a different perspective, one that
is authentic to them and that they feel
empowered to share. One size never
fits all.”
Ah, authenticity. How can such a
humane concept, and also something
of a buzzword, live in a commercial
environment? When the pressure to
hit the numbers, bag the sale, maximize
profit, win the pitch, is celebrated and
infused throughout a company’s culture?
It’s clear Torsten feels strongly
about this because he’s able to instantly
articulate what he means with a classic
example from adland: “The moment
you change yourself in order to win a
deal is the moment you’re seen through.
If you walk into a pitch wearing the
clothing of the brand you’re about to
pitch for – it’s completely ridiculous.
Are we all really wearing Burberry on
the same day? Or Nike hoodies and
trackpants? It’s not authentic and it’s
not who we are. If I was that client, I
wouldn’t buy from the team that did
that, because they are not showing
me who they really are or telling me
what they really think, and as a result I
wouldn’t be able to trust their advice.”
These words are issued with such
persuasive conviction that it sounds
almost like a manifesto for authenticity;
one that applies to life itself as much
as to business. It’s a strong end to our
conversation, which we need to wrap
up. I thank Torsten for generously
sharing both his time and perspective.
He leaves me with a powerful analogy.
“I happen to have visible baggage.
But the reality is we all have something
inside of us that is our own wheelchair.
That makes us feel different and
vulnerable. And that gives us the ability
to relate to other people through
recognizing that we all have our own
insecurities at times.”
So, you may not have worked with
someone in a wheelchair. But you’ve
worked with other human beings
with differences, insecurities and
vulnerabilities. And that’s perhaps a
fundamental truth about diversity –
that our differences can also unite us.
TORSTEN’S FIVE WAYS FOR
DIVERSE TEAMS TO THRIVE
1 Be authentic. Being able to bring your authentic self to a team
benefits more than just the individual, it creates a more effective team.
Inauthenticity – masking what you really think because you’re just in
it for the sale – is a surefire way to reduce your impact longterm.
2 Be creative. True creative thought means solving problems in ways
that might not seem obvious, and there’s a wealth of research that
suggests diversity in teams encourages such lateral thinking. In
negotiation it’s critical that you’re able to find creative solutions in
order to achieve value for both sides.
3 Don’t chase perfection. Great is the enemy of good. If you’re always
looking for 100% you’ll never move forward. 80% can be perfect.
4 Share information. A rising tide raises all boats: when you don’t
share certain things, you can’t create an outcome that is 100%
effective. Of course confidentiality is necessary to some extent, but
being as open as possible will only get you further.
5 Build trust. It isn’t given, it’s earned, especially in diverse teams.
While you can’t have a strategic initiative for trust, you can say, how
will we gain your trust? Being authentic, creative and transparent is a
great way to do this. TNS
31

BE A BETTER NEGOTIATOR EVERY WEEK
FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR.
Ask anyone who is an expert in their field how they stay at the top, and they will tell you
the same thing. It demands ongoing practice, week in, week out.
Negotiation 365 is a twelve-month digital learning program that offers you exactly that.
Each week it serves up fresh, bite-size content to help you think, analyze and behave more
effectively when planning and conducting your negotiations.
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For more information, visit www.thenegotiationsociety.com

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Tricks of my Trade
Consultant Lucia Roccatagliata reveals how her
commercial experience has shaped her perspective
on collaboration, the importance of humility, and
the magic of knowing how to negotiate.
The Negotiation Society: Lucia, tell us about
your career before The Gap Partnership.
Lucia: I spent eight amazing years working
in banking in my native Argentina.
TNS: What made it so great?
Lucia: Two things. First, the strategy and planning to
get an in-depth understanding of where the business
should go, and putting plans in place to realize that. I
found that immensely rewarding.
TNS: And the second thing?
Lucia: My team. Initially they were resistant to change,
and I was younger and came in at a senior level. This
caused some friction at first.
TNS: Sounds tricky. How did you manage?
Lucia: By being humble and learning from the
people around me. My team were diverse in culture,
background, age and status and had the potential
to be hugely creative.
TNS: How did you persuade them
to look at things differently?
Lucia: I didn’t impose change on them. Instead I listened,
and they saw that doing things differently could be an
opportunity, not a threat. I also built the business plan
with them, so everyone had shared responsibility.
TNS: Your leadership style sounds very
collaborative. How do you make that work?
Lucia: I leave my ego at the door because I can
guarantee I don’t necessarily have the right answer. I’ve
learned that when you impose yourself on others, the
result is not the best. I am driven by a desire to help
people, which is why I trained to be a doctor.
TNS: A doctor you say…tell us more.
Lucia: I spent five years at med school. Although
ultimately I decided it wasn’t for me, it taught me so
much: how to abstract huge amounts of information
in a short timeframe, how to interpret the content and
meaning behind words. The added bonus is that now
I have some great doctor friends – including a plastic
surgeon, anesthetist, psychiatrist, physician – who I see
when I return to Argentina.
TNS: Nice! Back to the bank – why did you move on?
Lucia: I was managing a team of 250 people
which demanded lots of time. I felt I was losing
the closeness I enjoyed about working with people
and wanted a change. I took a job as a management
consultant to get my mojo back, and then The Gap
Partnership showed up.
TNS: Ah, we were wondering when that
would happen. How did it come about?
Lucia: The recruiter contacted me through LinkedIn,
we had a call and so it began. The process was exciting
because all the negotiation principles massively
resonated with me – I’d grown up watching my dad
negotiate with “the velvet glove”.
TNS: What specifics of the “The Gap Partnership
way of negotiating” struck a chord with you?
Lucia: Staying in control. Being patient.
Waiting for the right moment.
Giving time to others to talk.
Controlling silences, not filling them
- I could already manage silence, but
understanding why it’s so powerful is a
key learning point. When you realize
what it can do and see the magic it
produces, that never leaves you.
TNS: And now it’s your job to share
the magic of negotiation with other
people?
Lucia: Yes and I love it; working
with people who are motivated to
do things better for themselves.
I’m not a magician, but what I
do can change their realities.
It’s a classic coaching role,
which is the kind of
leadership I feel really
comfortable with –
overturning the
traditional pyramid
hierarchy, working
collaboratively and
enabling people
to reach their
potential.

Tim Green
If you want to
achieve your
potential, listen to
the Fresh Prince!
Recently, my family was having our weekly
movie night at home. Someone had picked
the 2006 movie The Pursuit of Happyness,
and as a big Will Smith fan I was (if you’ll
forgive me), happy to watch. In the movie, Smith
plays Chris Gardner, a struggling medical sales
rep who goes from living on the streets to owning
his own brokerage firm. In one scene he is playing
basketball on a rooftop with his son and he tells
him not to try too hard because he believes his
son will never be above average. Then, in a sudden
moment of realization, he stops and thinks about
what he is saying. He turns to his son and says,
“Don’t let anyone stop you from reaching your
goals. Not even me. You got a dream, you gotta
protect it. People can’t do something themselves,
they want to tell you that you can’t do it. You want
something, go get it. Period.”
Up until the moment he checked himself, Will
Smith’s character was arguably demonstrating
the danger of cognitive bias. Now, there are about
as many definitions of what a cognitive bias is as
there are biases themselves, but in broad parlance
cognitive bias is an umbrella term that refers to the
systematic ways in which the context and framing
of information influence individuals’ judgment
and decision-making. A cognitive bias is a type
of error in thinking that occurs when people are
processing and interpreting information. Most of
us would like to think, perhaps driven by our egos,
that when we are processing information
and making decisions we are being logical,
balanced and objective. However, while some are
seen as positive by psychologists in that they allow
us to simplify information or make vital decisions
quickly, the reality is that many cognitive biases
can trip us up, leading to poor decisions and
bad judgments.
But why am I talking about cognitive biases
in a negotiation magazine when the theme is
inclusiveness? Well, in the absence of inclusivity,
there will always be excluded people who will
struggle to achieve their own potential and as a
result society or business, sport or politics – in fact
any area - will fail to achieve its own. Fortunately,
much of the world today is making greater strides
than ever to promote inclusivity, be that in terms
of race, age, disability, ethnicity, sexual orientation,
religion, and so on. However, one of the greatest
barriers to success in these endeavors may well lie
within our own cognitive biases – or worse still
in the cognitive biases triggered in one person by
another to serve their own ends and to keep that
first person from achieving their potential. And
commercial negotiation is the perfect place to
see this in action.
Often when working with our clients we
encounter individuals, and at times even groups,
who will openly admit to feeling less capable
than the people they negotiate with. Whatever
34

the reason they anchor on for this, they end up
defeating themselves before they even start the
negotiation, giving power immediately to
the other side when often it is misplaced and
unwarranted. And when the result of the
negotiation is less than they hoped or had planned
“When expectation bias is used
to exploit others, the language
of the exploiter can be a clear
indicator of their intention.
for, this just serves to reinforce their own negative
cognitive bias about their own ability. This
expectation bias can be hugely detrimental and
pernicious as it can come not just from yourself,
but also from others who may be trying to
manipulate a perceived weakness in your own
self-perception by creating a negative expectation
bias in you.
When expectation bias is used to exploit
others, the language of the exploiter can be a clear
indicator of their intention. It is language used to
make you believe that you will fail, that bad things
will happen to you or because of you, or that you
are not a competent person. Someone employing
this tactic is attempting to influence or control
someone else’s behavior to establish negative
thoughts and create a negative expectation bias
in that other person so that they draw incorrect
conclusions about their own ability. And the
further danger is that confirmation bias then
starts to negatively influence that person further
as they then seek signs, proof, indications that this
negative expectation bias that they have formed
of themselves through the influence of the other
party is correct. It is a vicious downward spiral
that can make people doubt themselves repeatedly
to the point of predictable failure. And the person
manipulating the situation is able to reinforce
the expectation bias again, and again, and again
– “It’s an uncomfortable process right, so what
do you expect?”; “Only really experienced people
know how to negotiate”; “You can’t buy experience
that you don’t have”; “You’re too young to be
any good”; “You clearly don’t know what you’re
doing”; “Women are too emotional to be good
negotiators”; “They’re giving you a
second chance?”
A manipulator employing this tactic is acting
in a parent ego state as it is arguably always an
intentional and deliberate act. In his Learning
Psychology Series No 10, Bernard Luskin
describes how manipulators will suggest that
anything that falls below perfect is a total failure,
will polarize perceptions to establish black and
white parameters with no room for shades of
grey, will definitively frame events or people as
good or bad, smart or stupid, brave or cowardly.
They will seek to foster defeat in others
by using absolute words such as always or
never to create the required expectation
bias that works to their favor. Perhaps some
of this sounds familiar and you have been
the recipient of this at some point in your
career? Or perhaps you recognize when you
may have done this yourself to others?
This is why it is so important to
consciously review your own capability
and identify for yourself, with help from
people you can trust, where you need to develop as
a negotiator (and we all need to keep developing
no matter how experienced we think we are!)
Maybe you do have gaps in your ability, maybe
you are lacking the experience of others, but just
as Will Smith’s character implored his son, don’t
allow anyone to tell you that you aren’t good
enough or that you don’t belong
at the negotiation table just
because of your age, your
gender, your race, your
experience, your
background. At the
very least don’t
forget that your
company trusts
you enough to
be there in the
first place.
Back to
the wisdom
contained,
perhaps
somewhat
incongruously,
in that Will
Smith movie. One
final thing to add
steel to your stature as
a negotiator is summed
up when Smith tells his
son on that rooftop basketball
court that “People can’t do something
themselves, they want to tell you that you can’t
do it.” People who try and make you think you
can’t negotiate will often be masking their own
insecurities, their own shortcomings. It is a tactic
to try and make them appear more powerful
and you less so. See it for what it is, discount the
invective, and decide to be the best that you can be
in that moment. TNS

QUESTION
TIME
We asked a panel of experts to give their
considered response to the statement:
Diversity is irrelevant when negotiating.
Saiful Islam
CO-FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR,
MUSLIM INFLUENCER NETWORK
“Guys, what’s that smell?” Our French
teacher, Mr Lomas, starts sniffing. He’s
puzzled, and everyone starts to giggle.
Except me. Fear, apprehension and
tension take over. What if they find out?
The night before, my Bangladeshi
parents had made me kebabs for lunch.
I was the only boy of Bangladeshi
origin in my year at a private school.
I was noticeably different – visually
and culturally. I wasn’t like the others:
children of senior partners at leading
law firms and executives at Coca-Cola.
Mine? Takeaway owners. So as a
teenager I wanted to limit anything
that made me extraordinary.
“Saiful, do you smell that too?” “Nope.
No idea.” My response was instant.
Fifteen years later, I’m the co-founder
of a marketing agency where diversity,
culture and inclusion couldn’t be more
desirable. Working with clients such as
Primark, The UN and leading consumer
brands. The irony! Diversity as a tool to
break barriers, grow market share and
engage audiences where narratives and
relatability are defined by social media is
no longer a nice to have. It’s a necessity.
The modest fashion market is
estimated to be worth over $209 billion.
A stat that inspired H&M to launch
a modest fashion collection in 2018.
Within six months the collection
disappeared and they’ve not launched
a modest collection since. Why? They
didn’t appreciate that, for Muslims, faith
affects consumption. Without data to
understand how that materializes into
their product, they just didn’t understand
modest fashion diversification. This isn’t
a case of knowing the attributes of a
prospect so you can generate sales.
This is appreciating and valuing
nuances that are critical to engaging a
marginalised generation. Diversity, faith
and inclusion are more important and
valuable than ever.
So does diversity matter in
negotiation, whether with 14-year-old
students or Fortune 500 executives?
You bet it does.
36

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
Chloe Su
Ivan Hung
Jayne Smith*
CONSULTANT,
THE GAP PARTNERSHIP
CONSULTANT,
THE GAP PARTNERSHIP
SENIOR COMMERCIAL LEADER,
MULTINATIONAL FMCG
A client asked me, “How do
I negotiate with my Japanese
counterparty, a different nationality
and culture to me?”. I responded with,
“Clarify “Japanese”. Are they from
Osaka, or Tokyo, or the countryside like
Aomori? Or perhaps they were born
and raised overseas and recently moved
back to Japan?” My point was that we
need to recognise that difference goes
beyond nationality and culture. As
negotiators we must also consider other
diversity categories such as education,
race, gender and religious beliefs. These
all impact how people behave.
That is not to say nationality doesn’t
play a role. Research from Jeswald
W. Salacuse (The Global Negotiator,
2003), found that 74% of Spanish
respondents said their negotiation goal
was a contract, but only 33% of Asian
respondents shared that view – perhaps
considering it to be more about creating
a trust-based relationship. There you
have a concrete nationality/culture-based
difference it is useful to be aware of.
But the danger is that these
differences are overestimated. How
often have you heard people blame
them when things go wrong? It
may actually be because they don’t
understand their counterparty as an
individual well enough, and nothing
to do with the fact they are from a
different country. But of course, it’s
just so easy to attach people to their
national flag.
So think. People negotiate with
people. Yes, it is useful to know about
their nationality and associated culture.
But if you understand what 99.9% of
Japanese people do, but not the person
sitting across the table from you, then
your deal might fall through anyway!
So, as complete skilled negotiators,
we need to look at our counterparty
and consider who they are across
their whole spectrum – culture and
nationality included, but not solely
those elements of their makeup.
“How do I negotiate with different
cultures?” is a question I’m often
asked. But I believe there is a more
pertinent one.
If one considers the fundamentals
of negotiation, it’s a process to resolve
differences between two or more
parties. During it you should consider
your interests, risks and consequences
of your decisions, and also future
relationships with counterparties.
Whether a deal can be struck depends
on acceptance of the terms on the table
by all parties involved.
If a set of terms is acceptable to
a negotiator, let’s call him Joe, then
why would Joe find the same set of
terms unacceptable if proposed by an
Indonesian rather than a Scandinavian?
Conversely, if Joe made a proposal,
would the counterparty accept the
offer if they are Japanese, but reject it
if they are Brazilian? Assuming no one
is racist, it sounds illogical: culture may
affect the process, format and superficial
characteristics of a negotiation, but not
its fundamentals.
That said, process can affect results.
As a negotiator, the more pertinent
question to consider therefore is,
“How can I leverage the way culture
affects negotiation in order to optimize
my results?”
A few years ago I met an American
executive working for a sourcing
company who knew when to “turn on”
and “turn off ” his “culture cards” to his
advantage. When he wanted to reject
the ask from his Asian suppliers, he
would claim, “According to my culture,
I must review your proposals with my
stakeholders”. However, when he was
given a favorable term, he didn’t need
to consult. Whether his behaviors are
appropriate is debatable, but certainly
he played the “culture cards” effectively.
For these reasons, my assertion
is that culture – and by association,
diversity – matters in your negotiations.
In my 25-year career in the food
industry, I’ve worked across diverse
categories, brands and channels.
A constant has been negotiation,
which has been central to all these
roles. There isn’t anything I haven’t
experienced. Or so I thought.
But now there’s Amazon,
increasingly omnipresent. Just the other
evening, I was shopping on Amazon
when their deal of the day popped
up: a new competitor to my products
– competitive, instantly available and
backed by a global distribution partner.
I found myself wondering how it’s
possible to respond to the collective
threat that online poses to both
ourselves as suppliers, and to our bricks
and mortar retail customers?
While I don’t profess to know the
answer, increasingly I’m questioning
the relevance of the traditional
buyer/seller negotiation model.
Surely now we must work even more
collaboratively and embrace diversity
across business, or we will find survival
tough. Rather than sitting on opposing
sides, our mindsets must change and
disrupt – from a supply chain model
that focuses on the negotiation of
goods from supplier to retailer, to a
collaborative ecosystem that embraces
the retailer and puts the consumer at
the centre of everything.
This mindset shift involves huge
change and a high degree of trust to
promote a collaborative relationship
built on curiosity. It challenges
traditional negotiations over goods and
services, and instead builds experiences
and expertise across the ecosystem
that’s created. These relationships will
then allow us to embrace differences
and work as a team.
Operating within a network of
cross-industry partners promotes
pace and simplicity, and encourages
a culture of healthy challenge where
collaboration can grow and evolve.
Diversity in negotiations is more
relevant than ever, as the need to
develop our collaborative ecosystems
together is vital for mutual survival.
*Identity concealed for privacy purposes.
37

ASK ALISTAIR
Negotiation expert Alistair White returns
to answer questions from our readers.
Q: I am one of the champions in
my business for diversity, inclusion
and belonging, but I’m fighting
a history of indifference and
finding it hard to engage and
influence key stakeholders.
Are there any negotiation
techniques that I could use
to make my voice louder and
more persuasive?
A: Success in commercial
negotiation isn’t about having
the loudest voice, and this is
even truer when you move away
from the tangibility of money into
the more intangible and emotive
subject of diversity and inclusivity
(D&I.)
A commercial negotiation’s aim
is to find the best deal for you that
the other party can agree to: the art
of letting them have your way. This
is your challenge, with the added
barrier that people can see the impact
of a commercial negotiation on the
business’s bottom line,
but not necessarily the
impact of a new approach
to D&I.
The need to get inside
the heads of the key
people in your business
is therefore critical. Ask
effective questions. Why
is there indifference?
Where does it comes
from? Remember you
aren’t negotiating with
the company but rather, as you have
identified, key stakeholders. Understand
their motivations and position D&I in
ways that support their own personal
focus areas and objectives.
As in any commercial decision,
there are two sides: risk and reward.
You could treat this situation like a
conditional trade and focus on the
reward. “If you agree to adopt this D&I
initiative, then the business will benefit
from x and y.” The trick is to ensure
your passion for the subject doesn’t
come across as “selling”.
Conversely, depending on the
“Remember, you aren't
negotiating with the company
but rather, as you have
identified, key stakeholders.
individual you’re trying to influence,
it may be that painting a picture of
the risks for the business of being left
behind while competitors embrace
D&I (a tactic known as the “social
smell”) may also be effective.
Finally, look at other people in
the business you can leverage to gain
support for your position, and have
them then act as influencers on the
people blocking your efforts.
Q: If I apply the principles of diversity
to my complex, multi-variable
negotiation, it might suggest that
there can never be too many
variables as they will lead to the
most creative and value-creating
solution. Do you agree, or can
you sometimes have too much
of a good thing?
A: Can you have too much of
a good thing? In a word, yes.
While every effort should be
made to explore options that
grow value for both parties in
collaborative negotiations, a degree
of pragmatism is advisable.
Are these variables nice-to-haves
or business-critical? To use a cooking
analogy, don’t undercook the main dish
for some extra garnish that looked good
on paper and tapped into the current
flavour-du-jour. Edible flowers spring
to mind!
Can they be delivered? It’s easy to
get carried away with the value (tangible
or intangible) a variable
could represent, but if it’s
going to take significant
time and cost to get it,
is your time better spent
elsewhere?
What is driving the
desire to look for more
variables? Is it doing
what’s right for both
parties, or is it an exercise
in promoting personal
interest, agenda and
perhaps ego?
So, in short, all options should be
identified, just not necessarily brought to
the table. The sheer act of finding areas
that could be explored at a later date will
aid a continued focus on value creation
between you and your business partner,
and help develop a future-facing,
collaborative and creative relationship.
If you have a question for Alistair
and would like it to be considered
for our next issue, please email
hello@thenegotiationsociety.com
38

THE NEGOTIATION SOCIETY
CROSSWORD
Our fiendishly challenging British-style crossword returns.
ILLUSTRATION: WWW.CARTOONSTOCK.COM
12 3 45 67 8
10 11
12 13
14
9
15 16 17
22
19 20 21
23 24 25
27 28
29 30
ACROSS
1 Bad luck if it’s hard! (6)
4 Heavy hitter almost modeled
without Calvin Klein underwear (8)
10 Race around in the town (9)
11 Top person attending tennis
challenge ultimately
revealing racket (5)
12 Tiny one with energy
to make spell (4)
26
13 Inspector Basil curiously having
sympathy, removing leader because
of condition (10)
15 Football helper that is tactically
gutless sort... (7)
16 ... latest attempt to guard goal (6)
19 Good one that finishes
up as male, maybe (6)
21 Salvage screen again (7)
"You'll have to phrase it another way.
They have no word for 'fetch.' "
18
23 Submission provided in place of
the first European conflict (10)
25 Flower girl’s rainbow flag (4)
27 Bother to take exercise
that’s appropriate (5)
28 Involvement in judgement
at home for fraud (9)
29 Pay back after unfinished,
short scientific search (8)
30 Request from settler to cross river (6)
DOWN
1 Native American endlessly reviewed
musical, showing imagination (8)
2 Record margin - first of exports are
manufactured as short-lived items (9)
3 Beagle, perhaps quiet and good
when upset (4)
5 A royal yacht at sea that’s
transporting grass (7)
6 Secret gambit associated with chess
authority - knight and castle
exchange at the beginning (10)
7 Short type of film starts to seem
completely improbable, for
instance (3-2)
8 Colour drawn by old solvers (3-3)
9 As you can see, flower failing
to be introduced in island (6)
14 Regularly, each dart has need
to be thrown for bullseye (4,6)
17 Scope of Oxford or Cambridge
perhaps exchanging degree for
a Parisian (9)
18 Lag in quiet person getting up
to restrict working (8)
20 Byzantine Greek keeping cool
but smelling (7)
21 Two firms go after elevated
or extravagant style (6)
22 Some override Alsatian principles (6)
24 Plants in US state lacking papers (5)
26 Utter not quite right animal noise (4)
For solutions email
hello@thenegotiationsociety.com
39

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