Interview with tech-anthropologist Abigail Posner
Abigail Posner has always been fascinated with the intersection of humanity and technology – be it as a Harvard-trained anthropologist, a leader in global advertising or the head of Google's «Creative Works» in the United States. A conversation about AI, communication and creativity.
Abigail Posner has always been fascinated with the intersection of humanity and technology – be it as a Harvard-trained anthropologist, a leader in global advertising or the head of Google's «Creative Works» in the United States. A conversation about AI, communication and creativity.
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Das Magazin für Marketing und Kommunikation<br />
DAS MAGAZIN FÜR MARKETING UND KOMMUNIKATION<br />
Humans and Machines<br />
Tech-<strong>anthropologist</strong> <strong>Abigail</strong> <strong>Posner</strong> about AI, communication and creativity > p. 8<br />
Star economist Roubini:<br />
«Act or perish!»<br />
> p. 24<br />
David versus Goliath:<br />
Richard Edelman up close<br />
> p. 44<br />
ADC Young Creatives:<br />
The future of advertising<br />
> S. 64
8<br />
TECHNOLOGY<br />
Humans<br />
and<br />
Machines<br />
<strong>Abigail</strong> <strong>Posner</strong> has always been fascinated <strong>with</strong> the intersection of humanity<br />
and <strong>tech</strong>nology – be it as a Harvard-trained <strong>anthropologist</strong>, a leader in global<br />
advertising or the head of Google's «Creative Works» in the United States.<br />
A conversation about AI, communication and creativity.<br />
By Johannes Hapig<br />
Illustrations Silvan Borer
9
10<br />
M&K You’re a Harvard-trained <strong>anthropologist</strong>,<br />
you’ve worked for several<br />
leading advertising networks – and<br />
now you’ve been <strong>with</strong> Google’s creative<br />
team in the US for more than<br />
eleven years, the last five of them<br />
running the «Creative Works» department.<br />
What’s the line that connects the<br />
different dots of your career?<br />
ABIGAIL POSNER Well, at the very core of<br />
anthropology – if you boil it down to its<br />
essence – is the study of why people<br />
do what they do. Why do they eat<br />
something, wear something, talk about<br />
something? Why do they behave in a<br />
certain way when they’re <strong>with</strong> friends,<br />
but in another way when they’re at<br />
work? Anthropology is the endeavor of<br />
decoding what makes human beings<br />
«tick». The basic assumption is that<br />
there’s a rationale, a purpose behind<br />
anything – and if you dig beneath the<br />
surface and try to uncover that, you get<br />
a lot of amazing insight.<br />
How did you use that in advertising?<br />
Let me give you an example: On<br />
behalf of the agencies I worked <strong>with</strong><br />
as a brand strategist, I would try<br />
to uncover why consumers went and<br />
bought a Coca-Cola, or a piece of<br />
<strong>tech</strong>nology, or amusement park<br />
«At the very core of anthropology is the study<br />
of why people do what they do. Why do they<br />
eat something, wear something, talk about<br />
something?»<br />
tickets. But not just in the «They like<br />
the taste»-, «They like the design»-<br />
or «They like to have fun»-kind of way;<br />
rather by understanding what these<br />
things were «doing» for people and<br />
how they were enhancing their existence<br />
<strong>with</strong> them. I was then able to<br />
consult our clients on a much broader<br />
scale and help them to develop<br />
completely new ways of establishing<br />
connection <strong>with</strong> potential customers.<br />
To tell more profound stories. That’s<br />
something I’ve been able to transfer to<br />
my job <strong>with</strong> Google – quite successfully,<br />
which is a bit funny, because<br />
when I started here I thought I<br />
wouldn’t last a week (laughs).<br />
Why did you think that?<br />
Well, I was excited about the opportunity<br />
and embraced it immediately, but<br />
then I had some second thoughts:<br />
«What do I know about <strong>tech</strong>nology?<br />
What do I know about sales? I'm a<br />
strategist, and maybe even a bit of an<br />
anthropology … weirdo» (laughs).<br />
However, I had recognized something<br />
very important: The company – already<br />
more than a decade ago – had a<br />
fantastic amount of data and knew<br />
what people were doing <strong>with</strong> its<br />
<strong>tech</strong>nology. The particular motivation<br />
of those people, the «Why», wasn’t<br />
always clear, though. There were all<br />
these questions floating around: «Why<br />
do people feel such a strong connection<br />
<strong>with</strong> their phones? Why are cat<br />
videos trending on YouTube? Why<br />
would somebody want to use Augmented<br />
Reality – why would that<br />
<strong>tech</strong>nology be regarded as beneficial?»<br />
I felt that those questions needed<br />
to be addressed, and Google<br />
shared that assessment. So after I had
11<br />
started there, I went to work on those<br />
questions <strong>with</strong> various teams – and<br />
even hired a bunch of other, very<br />
clever <strong>anthropologist</strong>s. We conducted<br />
studies and went on field trips, in order<br />
to uncover the deep, profound, beautiful<br />
relationship we have built <strong>with</strong> all<br />
these digital places and spaces. We<br />
gave the project quite a beautiful<br />
name, too: «Humanizing Digital».<br />
You’ve just made a distinction that has<br />
become the focal point of many of<br />
your theories, and which you speak<br />
about frequently in keynotes, podcasts<br />
and interviews: The distinction between<br />
the «what» and the «why» of<br />
<strong>tech</strong>nology, and – or – digitization.<br />
Could we go a little more into detail<br />
here?<br />
For instance, take a look at your smartphone.<br />
At first glance, your smartphone<br />
is just a small computer you can<br />
walk around <strong>with</strong>. There were brillant<br />
engineers who created it, who came<br />
up <strong>with</strong> a touchscreen, and a semi-professional<br />
camera in the back, et cetera.<br />
Then, there were amazing developers<br />
who programmed apps that you can<br />
read your e-mails <strong>with</strong>, or take notes in,<br />
or text your friends <strong>with</strong>. All this belongs<br />
to the «what». But there is no<br />
inherent meaning either in the hardware<br />
or in the software I just described<br />
– we, the users, need to give them<br />
meaning, and that would be the «why».<br />
See, we’re using <strong>tech</strong>nology – for<br />
example – in order to do something I<br />
call «Place-Making». Even thought we<br />
live in the virtual world so much, we<br />
still feel the need to connect to our<br />
local, physical environments…our<br />
homes, streets and local haunts. It<br />
grounds us and orients us emotionally.<br />
Human beings have an innate urge to<br />
«Why do people<br />
feel such a strong<br />
connection <strong>with</strong> their<br />
phones? Why are cat<br />
videos trending on<br />
YouTube?»<br />
make sense of their physical surroundings<br />
by assigning meaning to them.<br />
The places that surround us help us<br />
create, store and bring back powerful<br />
memories. Technology can facilitate<br />
and help to speed up the «Place-Making»<br />
in locations that we’ve never<br />
been to before. I’ve been experiencing<br />
that, too.<br />
Who's who?<br />
<strong>Abigail</strong> <strong>Posner</strong> is the director<br />
of the U.S. division of<br />
«Creative Works», Google's<br />
link to agencies and advertisers.<br />
Together <strong>with</strong> her team,<br />
she advises Google customers<br />
on how they can best<br />
use the company's tools for<br />
their individual purposes.<br />
Prior to joining the <strong>tech</strong><br />
giant, <strong>Posner</strong> worked as a<br />
Strategy Director <strong>with</strong><br />
Publicis New York and as a<br />
Director of Brand Strategy<br />
<strong>with</strong> DDB Worldwide.<br />
Holding a degree in anthropology<br />
from Harvard<br />
University, she is also a<br />
sought-after global keynote<br />
speaker and holds various<br />
supervisory board mandates.<br />
Further information:
12<br />
«Human beings have an innate urge to make<br />
sense of their physical surroundings by<br />
assigning meaning to them.»<br />
Would you tell me about it?<br />
I live in the middle of Manhattan, and<br />
when I had my office at Chelsea Market<br />
– now, it’s in Soho – I was able to walk<br />
to work. So one day, I left the house<br />
<strong>with</strong> a bit of time on my hands, and I<br />
passed by Hell’s Kitchen, which is<br />
essentially one restaurant after another.<br />
The sheer amount of places one<br />
can visit there usually makes everything<br />
blend together a little bit, almost<br />
like … a canvas. But there was a place<br />
I’d never seen before and that stood<br />
out. I was intrigued. I pulled out my<br />
phone, checked Google regarding<br />
what this place was about – who the<br />
chef was – and what the menu looked<br />
like. I also checked the ratings, and the<br />
pictures other people had taken. I<br />
went inside and treated myself to a<br />
really nice breakfast – a few minutes<br />
ago, I had no clue this place existed,<br />
and here I was, enjoying a dish<br />
strangers recommended online,<br />
feeling at home. That’s the first layer of<br />
the «why» of <strong>tech</strong>nology – «Place-Making».<br />
But there’s more. There’s an<br />
opportunity for interaction, too…<br />
…when you «share» the restaurant?<br />
Yes. I take a picture of my breakfast, I<br />
post it on a social media page. And<br />
then, I get all these comments in<br />
return. One of my friends has probably<br />
been there, and goes: «Oh, this is my<br />
favorite dish!»; or a co-worker says:<br />
«This is the restaurant where my<br />
boyfriend proposed to me» – and that<br />
makes the place even more meaningful<br />
to me, and deepens the connection<br />
to the people who react to my post.<br />
The reason I’m telling you this is that<br />
«seeing the world through our phone»<br />
is often frowned upon, and there’s<br />
always somebody saying: «Put that<br />
away, enjoy the moment.» But what if<br />
our phone helps us to enjoy the<br />
moment even more? I think this example<br />
shows how people add a «why» to<br />
the <strong>tech</strong>nological possibilities they’re<br />
provided <strong>with</strong>, and they constantly<br />
alter and re-create their purpose.<br />
That’s the kind of creativity that makes<br />
human beings so amazing.<br />
I had to chuckle when you mentioned<br />
the example of the person who complains<br />
about the phone. With everything<br />
you say being totally comprehensible<br />
to me, one would probably still<br />
have a hard time convincing those who<br />
refuse to embrace <strong>tech</strong>nology.<br />
And that’s okay. Skepticism is fine.<br />
Throughout history, there has always<br />
been new <strong>tech</strong>nology that we have<br />
integrated into our lives, whether it's<br />
fire, or metallurgy, or the printing<br />
press. Some people used that <strong>tech</strong>nology<br />
to do more harm than good, and<br />
that’s why a few others were – and<br />
remained – skeptical of innovation. But<br />
the anthropology mindset is a positive<br />
one: For the most part, people will use<br />
whatever they have at their disposal to<br />
just … try and make their lives better.<br />
They’re generally benevolent, and so<br />
they take these new tools, and they<br />
make sense of them … a fire is not just<br />
a fire, but something that keeps you<br />
warm at night; something that lets you<br />
and your family enjoy warm food.<br />
Again, my point is, of course people<br />
abuse <strong>tech</strong>nologies, and sometimes<br />
<strong>tech</strong>nologies go awry, but for the most<br />
part, we tend to take them, reinterpret<br />
them, because we're ingenious ourselves<br />
as human beings. And then we<br />
give ourselves the liberty of being<br />
better storytellers, being better connectors<br />
being better builders, which is<br />
really fundamental to being human.<br />
«There’s<br />
always somebody<br />
saying: ‹Put that phone<br />
away, enjoy the moment.›<br />
But what if our phone<br />
helps us to enjoy<br />
the moment even<br />
more?»<br />
In the seemingly simple act of looking<br />
up and texting about a restaurant<br />
online, there lies «Place-Making», and<br />
connection – and there’s also an<br />
element of great creativity to what<br />
you’ve been describing, right?<br />
Yeah. Because the picture that I take of<br />
that food … I'm going put a filter on it,<br />
I'm going to alter it, I'm going to use it<br />
as some form of expression of myself.<br />
There’s a plethora of things I can do<br />
<strong>with</strong> it. Whenever I mention that in<br />
front of an audience, people tend go:<br />
«Oh, wow! I do that, too!» – it’s just that<br />
they never think about how «deep»
13<br />
this actually is. The seemingly banale,<br />
small, daily things we do carry such a<br />
lot of meaning, and we hardly ever<br />
recognize it.<br />
That would add yet another layer:<br />
Using <strong>tech</strong>nology not just as a means<br />
of «Place-Making» and connection,<br />
but also to show the world who we are<br />
and who we want to be seen as<br />
through what we create.<br />
This goes both ways – we can put<br />
something out there, anything really,<br />
and then get people to react to it. It’s a<br />
back and forth movement. That’s an<br />
aspect I call «Self-Making». Let’s say I<br />
get a new haircut, and put a picture of<br />
it out there. And then I get responses,<br />
and I get a sense of whether that’s a<br />
good look for me. Doesn’t that prove<br />
that selfies are not merely a testament<br />
to vanity, but that they’re a way to look<br />
at ourselves via the mirror of the<br />
digital realm? If you want a more<br />
intellectual example for «Self-Making»,<br />
take a podcast: You have an idea, you<br />
record what you’re thinking, and<br />
you’re putting it out there. Some<br />
people will love it, some will criticize<br />
you for it, and you get a sense of what<br />
the majority of listeners like – and a<br />
chance to adapt.<br />
«Putting yourself out there» also<br />
requires one to accept a certain<br />
vulnerability, though.<br />
That’s correct. That’s precisely why I<br />
call it «Self-Making». Because if you're<br />
not vulnerable, you're not open. There<br />
may always be some bullies who post<br />
a stupid comment under a photo, or<br />
«Selfies<br />
provide a way<br />
to look at ourselves<br />
via the mirror of<br />
the digital<br />
realm.»<br />
who talk trash about your podcast – I<br />
don’t mean honest criticism, I mean<br />
comments that are intended to belittle<br />
efforts, or to hurt. Well, so what? I’m<br />
not trying to be apologetic of that<br />
behavior, but there’s bullies in school,<br />
too. And if we allowed them to stop us<br />
from going there, and learning, and<br />
growing … what kind of a world would<br />
we live in? That is why I’m a strong<br />
advocate for using <strong>tech</strong>nology and<br />
digital tools to the fullest extent, for<br />
trying to create something unique,<br />
and positive, and beneficial – and not<br />
allow a few bullies to take that away.<br />
Now we see that there’s numerous<br />
examples for the «why» of <strong>tech</strong>nology,<br />
and – or – digitization. I loved an<br />
example you gave in a keynote in<br />
California – about sharing funny<br />
videos …<br />
Yes, that could be subsumed under the<br />
«connection» part, but we can do a bit<br />
of a deep-dive on this: If I send you a<br />
video I like, and which made me laugh,<br />
then the message is not just: «Video!<br />
Watch!» The message is: «This is<br />
something that has made me happy,<br />
and I want you to be happy, too. Also, I<br />
think I know you well enough to<br />
estimate that we share the same<br />
humor. And last, not least, I think<br />
you’re intelligent enough to understand<br />
what I want to show you.»<br />
A very nuanced way of establishing<br />
common ground. Can brands tap<br />
into that?<br />
Yes, they can, and they should definitely<br />
try. Marketing has evolved over<br />
time. For long, it was very functional.<br />
But then it became more emotional<br />
– and more funny. I won’t forget how<br />
my first boss in advertising said to me:<br />
«Never, ever underestimate the value<br />
of being funny.» Because therein lies
14<br />
«Instead of over-engineering channels and KPIs,<br />
let’s reverse-engineer and get back to a discussion about<br />
basic human needs, wishes, desires. Let’s connect to<br />
people’s ‹humaneness›.»<br />
the true recognition of the person on<br />
the other side. Also, a good friend of<br />
mine recently stated: «We really need<br />
to get serious about being funny», and<br />
I think that’s spot-on. Having a laugh<br />
together, again, is a fundamental<br />
exchange of energies; and if brands<br />
get access to that – which isn’t easy,<br />
because it requires an understanding<br />
of culture, of trends, of many subtle<br />
factors that may not immediately be<br />
recognizable – they have a tremendous<br />
opportunity to get way ahead of their<br />
competition. Instead of over-engineering<br />
channels and KPIs, let’s reverseengineer<br />
and get back to a discussion<br />
about basic human needs, wishes,<br />
desires. Let’s connect to people’s<br />
«humaneness».<br />
You’re basically saying that we’re<br />
not «distracted» from being human<br />
by <strong>tech</strong>nology, or the digital realm,<br />
but that we’re using them to become<br />
even more of who we are – and who<br />
we aspire to be. Have you thought<br />
about how generative AI – the era of<br />
which we’re now entering – may<br />
contribute to that?<br />
It’s interesting that you’re asking me<br />
this! I’m currently working on an<br />
article <strong>with</strong> a Harvard Business School<br />
professor, we want to co-author<br />
something … I can’t say too much<br />
about the content of the text yet, but I<br />
can tell you something about artificial<br />
intelligence: It was late on Thursday, I<br />
was at the airport, and while I was<br />
waiting for my flight I started playing<br />
around <strong>with</strong> «Bard», which is Google’s<br />
collaborative AI. I used «Bard» to help<br />
me test a hypothesis on a certain<br />
leadership trait and search for examples<br />
of leaders who exhibit this trait.<br />
That supported me in expressing my<br />
ideas for the paper more clearly. So I<br />
have a really good starting point from<br />
which I can now take over and progress.<br />
Generative, conversational AI is a very<br />
elaborate tool – yet, it remains a tool.<br />
Do you, being both an <strong>anthropologist</strong><br />
and a <strong>tech</strong> executive, sometimes<br />
wonder about what may come after<br />
that? An AI, probably, that would no<br />
longer be distinguishable from human<br />
intellect – and would force us to<br />
re-evaluate «who we are»?<br />
«We’ll make<br />
it work. We’ll keep<br />
evolvingin the right<br />
direction.»<br />
First, I want to say that there is still so<br />
much mystery, so much that we do<br />
not know about the way our brains<br />
function. Neuroscience is absolutely<br />
fascinating, and while I have barely<br />
scratched the surface of that field, I<br />
can tell you that there’s so much<br />
going on in our minds …and in our<br />
bodies! … that we do not fully understand.<br />
So if there was a <strong>tech</strong>nology one<br />
day that could be more creative, more<br />
innovative, generally more clever than<br />
human beings – I first would be<br />
surprised, I think, but I would also be<br />
intrigued. Because to qualify as such,<br />
the <strong>tech</strong>nology would need to have<br />
understood all the mysteries we have<br />
yet to uncover, or else it wouldn’t be<br />
superior to our intellect. And frankly, I<br />
don't see any <strong>tech</strong>nology being up for<br />
this task any time soon. It would need<br />
a lot more time and development<br />
before I would even be concerned<br />
about AI being more human than us.<br />
And the reluctancy towards<br />
the generative AI we’re testing<br />
now, and which is constantly in<br />
the media…?<br />
We’ve talked about <strong>tech</strong> skepticism<br />
before. It’s as old as time. My mother<br />
was a professor of chemistry and the<br />
Dean of Wellesley College in Massachusetts.<br />
And she remembers days<br />
when there was panic around using<br />
calculators; when her colleagues were<br />
protesting against them: «These<br />
machines are now doing the math for<br />
us. What do we do, then? And how do<br />
we keep challenging our students?»<br />
All of a sudden, academics had to<br />
rethink what it means to challenge a<br />
student. That’s not the worst thing in<br />
the world, right? (laughs) Another<br />
example: More than two decades ago,<br />
the internet provided billions of<br />
people <strong>with</strong> all the knowledge that<br />
humanity ever possessed – but that<br />
has not made human judgment<br />
obsolete. It has become our most<br />
important crutch, and it has enhanced<br />
and elevated our life in so many ways<br />
… but it has not made us redundant. I<br />
read an interesting piece in a magazine<br />
a couple of days ago which made<br />
the point that the broad use of AI may<br />
lead to a renewed interest in liberal<br />
arts – because what we’ll need in the<br />
future are people who can do things
15<br />
powers of artificial intelligence. But<br />
most of us will adapt to its existence in<br />
a positive way, and it will help us to get<br />
further. My son wrote one of his college<br />
admissions essays about his<br />
interest in astrophysics. He's fascinated<br />
by it because of the mysteries of<br />
science and how much we still don't<br />
know, don't understand and don't see<br />
yet. That compares to the previous<br />
example of our brain. I am convinced<br />
that, to tap into that knowledge of the<br />
«great beyond» – both <strong>with</strong>in ourselves<br />
and in the universe surrounding us<br />
– we will need all of the help we can<br />
get. And we’ll make it work. We’ll keep<br />
evolving in the right direction.<br />
that artificial intelligence can’t do:<br />
People who feel the subtlety of humor<br />
I mentioned, people who connect dots<br />
that have never been connected<br />
before, people who show empathy in<br />
storytelling. I mean – the delicate<br />
balance of «what to mention and what<br />
not to mention» in smalltalk at a<br />
cocktail party; the next trend in clothing;<br />
the almost invisible strings that<br />
direct human interaction … that’s<br />
something an AI won’t be able to<br />
«get», in my opinion. At least for now.<br />
So you’re seeing a beautiful future?<br />
Maybe I'm naïve. Actually, surely I am<br />
naïve, to some extent (laughs). I don’t<br />
know all that lies before us. And who<br />
does? Again, there’s going to be<br />
people who will try to abuse the<br />
I imagine a world where artificial<br />
intelligence for our brain becomes the<br />
equivalent of what robotic exoskeletons<br />
are for our bodies: Something<br />
that doesn’t hinder us, but that increases<br />
the strength we have and enables<br />
us to take on more challenging endeavors.<br />
I like that idea. Having a clever AI that<br />
grabs, summarizes, or breaks down<br />
information from all the corners of the<br />
web can be tremendously helpful in<br />
simplifying almost any intellectual<br />
work we’re doing. It can offer us – to<br />
get back to your very first question –<br />
the dots, and we are the ones who<br />
connect them. If history is my data<br />
point, then, yes, the future is bright.<br />
Because that's what we've been doing<br />
over the course of time. We've been<br />
taking these <strong>tech</strong>nologies, we've<br />
adapted them. We've leveraged them,<br />
we've navigated through them to<br />
make us more human, to make us<br />
better storytellers, more loving, more<br />
innovative, more creative. And don’t<br />
forget: We’ve also been having quite a<br />
lot of fun along the way.