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INTERVIEW
76
ROUND TABLE MEETING OF TOP DUTCH REAL ESTATE PLAYERS
‘EUROPEAN REAL ESTATE
MARKET BECOMES MORE
AND MORE PROFESSIONAL’
Dutch real estate players including ING Real Estate, AM, Bouwfonds and MAB,
are stretching their wings further on an international scale. This means that
they regularly find themselves competing against each other. However, this
did not stand in the way of a round table meeting of Dutch companies to
discuss the international real estate market. Jan Doets, CEO of ING Real
By Marinus Dijkman
Estate; Hans van Veggel, COO of AM (Amstelland MDC); Bart Bleker, a
Member of the Board of Bouwfonds; and Ton Meijer, CEO of MAB talk with
striking openness about transparency and internationalization, but also
about the opportunities offered by, and the challenges facing, the ever-
European real estate ambitions
are divided amongst
ING Real Estate, Bouwfonds,
AM and MAB. Each is
conquering Europe in its own
way. ING Real Estate – globally
active as a real estate investor,
financier and developer – is
spreading its wings as ING Real
Estate Development, working
closely with ING banks in
Chodov, Prague, the Czech Republic (AM).
EUROPE REAL ESTATE YEARBOOK 2004
growing European real estate market.
Southern and Eastern Europe.
Bouwfonds, just as active worldwide
in the field of real estate
financing, is focusing under the
name of Bouwfonds Property
Development (BPD), after a
period of regrouping, especially
in France - where in 2003 it took
over the home builder/developer
Marignan - and in Scandinavia.
AM, the result of the merger of
Amstelland and MDC (Multi
Development Corporation), operates
in almost every European
country as a successful, largescale
project developer. The
same applies to MAB, which is
engaged in national and international
project development,
particularly large, high quality
inner-city projects.
Europe: the ‘Wild West’?
In answering to the question of
whether there is a ‘wild west’
culture surrounding property
development in the ‘new countries’,
European business leaders
respond with grimaces and
knowing looks. Hans van Veggel
starts the ball rolling. “AM now
operates in 12 countries. As
developers and investors, we all
know that we must deal with
mature and fledgling markets.
We take this into account. To
begin with, a new market natu-

F.l.t.r.: Bart Bleker (Bouwfonds), Jan Doets (ING Real Estate), Hans van Veggel (AM) and Ton Meijer (MAB).
rally has a certain wild west scenario.
In Istanbul, for example,
there are many new hypermarkets,
but not many new shopping
center developments. In Athens,
there is a lack of shopping
centers across the board. The situation
differs in each country,
together with the opportunities
and threats involved. Some
countries will perhaps join the
European Union in the future.
However, in Poland and the
Czech Republic, which are new
markets, there is now a lot of
interest for developments in the
city centers, following development
in the outer districts first.
Construction work is particularly
interesting in Warsaw, for
instance”, says Van Veggel.
According to Bart Bleker, there is
little certainty in new markets,
but that does not mean it is like
the Wild West. “The idea that
you are entering a completely
different world is a huge exaggeration.
Bouwfonds operates
mostly in EU member states,
where there is already more harmonization
than you might
expect. The ten countries about to
join the EU offer new opportunities
for us almost immediately.
Investors are very interested. In
emerging markets, you have to
sell for big returns”, says Bleker.
Zlote Tarasy, Warsaw, Poland (ING Real Estate).
Jan Doets continues the discussion.
“That was very clear in
Hungary, where an enormous
number of square meters of retail
space suddenly appeared. In
theory, that would not seem possible.
But the shopping centers
have been successful. The explanation?
The gray economy is
almost as large as the white economy.
That had not been fore- >>
YEARBOOK 2004 EUROPE REAL ESTATE 77
INTERVIEW

INTERVIEW
78
cast. I will just say this: each
country has its own special characteristics.
That’s why you need
local knowledge and should use
it properly. Note that Spain and
Portugal, countries we now think
of as a home market, were also
in a development phase in our
sector not so long ago.”
Ton Meijer adds, “Local knowledge
is perhaps the most important
factor if you wish to find new
markets. In countries that are new
to us, we attempt to combine
respect for local culture and
customs with our expertise and
working methods. All MAB top
managers in Europe are top local
specialists. However, a second
component is essential for the internationalization
of a developer.
Do you have something to offer
the ‘new’ country that is not already
there, or not there to a sufficient
degree? Know-how, financial
opportunities, and creativity
are examples”.
‘Local Touch’
The economies of European
countries are growing towards
each other at a fast rate. Bleker
responds resignedly to the proposition
that in the process of unification,
Europe has let Germany
down somewhat and that this has
been rather short-sighted given
Ton Meijer, CEO of MAB
EUROPE REAL ESTATE YEARBOOK 2004
Bart Bleker, Member of the Board
of Bouwfonds
the international importance of
the German economy for Europe.
“Yes, I think this is the most important
reason for the current
economic malaise”, states
Bleker. Doets continues, “In the
euphoria of the unification,
banks and businesses in West
Germany were encouraged
through tax schemes to invest
particularly in the East. But what
we saw was that what mortgage
banks were earning was being lost
again in East Germany. The
problem has been seriously
underestimated by everyone.”
Van Veggel thinks the Germans
have gotten themselves back on
track. “This year, there has been
a definite turnaround compared
to last year. It is a big country,
but investors always choose the
large cities like Frankfurt,
Munich, Hamburg, Berlin and
Cologne. We began in a few
small towns in the Ruhr. We had
to work really hard there to sell
anything. Nevertheless, this
region seems an interesting one
for us in the context of project
development.”
Ton Meijer agrees. “We
absolutely believe in the potential
of the German market in the
sector where we operate. We
have a development in Frankfurt
with the ‘Zeil’ project, worth
almost € 800 million, in a joint
venture with Bouwfonds Property
Finance. In Berlin we are developing
the Media Hotel, while we
have other mid-sized and big
projects at an early stage of
development in various other
cities. They are all projects in top
locations in the bigger inner
cities. In our view, well-developed
inner city projects can
always withstand economic
trends, even in Germany.”
Bleker comments, “Everyone has
their own European focus. We are
Zeil project, Frankfurt (MAB/BPF).
operating in France and are very
happy with a good partner. But in
Scandinavia, we can also see a
stable economy with good growth
prospects. Our policy is: we’ll
lead the pack, and the commercial
real estate will follow. We are not
looking towards Britain. There
are too many huge parties
involved and it isn’t easy to
acquire a position in the housing
market there. In Spain, we have
been operational for much longer
in investment. If that provides us
with an interesting network, other
activities will follow. That’s why

we are now looking for a Spanish
partner we can work with to
develop residential and perhaps
commercial real estate.”
Knowledge of markets
Everyone taking part in the round
table discussion agrees that the
key to success in working in other
countries is the mix of the qualities
of all the parties involved: the
developer, the business personnel,
the investors, the clients and
local authorities. According to Ton
Meijer, “Local market knowledge,
SOY Quest, St. Quentin - en Yvelines, France (MAB).
knowledge of and involvement
in local networks, and a business
structure and culture focused on
the collaboration of all business
divisions in all countries is
essential. However, we are more
cautious in our international ambitions
than other parties. Our first
concern is the spread of risk. It is
important that a market we operate
in is integrated as quickly as possible
into the total MAB organization,
taking into account the
management instruments we consider
essential. We need to make
it a home market as quickly as
possible, since it is only then that
we can find the good sites, keep
close track of all the challenges
and threats of such a market and
fulfill our aspirations.”
Hans van Veggel adds, “You can’t
work in local markets from an
institutional standpoint. There has
to be an institutional structure, a
business structure, but it remains
unit production. You have to be an
international company with a
genuine local touch. You need to
know the differences in rental, the
different planing regulations and
procedures, or else it’s very easy
to make a mistake. But that is also
the fun part of it - we are all in the
same boat. As developers, we look
at the market in a different way
than investors. They look at
regions such as Southern, Western
and Central Europe from an
economic perspective.
Fluctuations in the economy
determine the markets the developers
will seek. Developers refer
much more to terms such as
mature markets, alternate markets,
up-and-coming markets and new
markets. From another perspective,
the investor wants to spread
his investment across markets. We
find that in mature markets, the
cities, locations and businesses
need to be restructured. I think
that the market for office space is
in a rather disastrous situation
throughout almost all of Europe.
The economy will need to make a
very positive swing before things
improve again.”
Jan Doets says, “I think that the
economic recovery of Europe
will continue for another 4 or 5
years. At ING Real Estate, we
wear three hats: as financier,
investor and developer. We don’t
just work on our own portfolio,
but also for funds with countless
other investors who make use of
our experience. Accordingly, we
look for products suitable for in-
Jan Doets, CEO
of ING Real Estate
vestment requirements. Housing,
for example, produces low
returns, but long-term growth.
Office space closely follows economic
fluctuations. Retail is
somewhere between the two. The
market for office space is now
disrupted, but it is dynamic.
Many lessees now expect to be
able to find a better building for
the same amount of money. That
means that there are unoccupied
buildings at the lower end of the
market. Developers respond to
this by redeveloping the building
or the location, which is good
news.”
Van Veggel adds, “I think that
the lessee is the key figure in the
market for office space. The
location is of secondary impor- >>
Hans van Veggel, CEO of AM.
YEARBOOK 2004 EUROPE REAL ESTATE 79
INTERVIEW

INTERVIEW
80
AAM (Amstelland MDC)
AM NV (Amstelland MDC) is an area-oriented
developer of urban centers, shopping centers,
housing estates, offices and office parks, operating
on a European scale. The company is the
market leader in the Netherlands and holds a
leading position in the property development
Hans van Veggel, sector in Europe (annual turnover of approxi-
CEO of AM.
mately € 1.4 billion). AM has projects under
development in the Netherlands, Belgium, the
Czech Republic, France, Germany, Portugal, Spain and the United
Kingdom. As a creative knowledge organization, AM specializes in
the design and development of living, working, shopping and
recreational environments. AM was created in 2002 by the merger
of Amstelland and Multi Development Corporation.
tance. A lessee chooses a plan for
which, if necessary, you can get
land in another location.”
Real estate funds
The international real estate
market is quickly becoming
more professional. Thanks to the
introduction of listed and nonlisted
real estate funds, institutional
investors are better able to
spread their investments worldwide
and, if desired, according to
investment type in order to take
advantage of the stabilizing
influence of real estate investment
in their portfolios.
EUROPE REAL ESTATE YEARBOOK 2004
Bart Bleker agrees. “In times
when interest rates are low and
profits on stocks are meager, real
estate is an additional lucrative
product. We are trying to make
ourselves more visible in the
market. Thanks to real estate
funds – and the healthy trade in
stock therein – investors can now
anticipate more quickly and
investment in the real estate
sector is on the increase.”
Jan Doets adds, “We work with
specific funds, such as retail
funds, an office space fund or a
housing fund, which are distributed
across regions and conti-
ING Real Estate
The core activities of ING Real Estate are
carried out in three business lines:
Jan Doets, CEO
Development, Investment, Management and
Finance. The global real estate firm (with
offices throughout Europe and in Singapore,
China and Australia) concentrates its activities
on retail, residential, offices, logistics, parking
of ING Real Estate facilities and leisure - either offering these
through one of its own business lines or by
combining the services of more business lines. The firm ranks
among the world’s three largest real estate players with assets
under management of over € 40 billion. ING Real Estate is a
member of the ING Group, a financial services firm with more than
115,000 employees in 60 countries.
nents. That way we cover a large
number of areas and the investor
has more options. We also advise
on building up a portfolio. We
purchase from third parties, but
also from our own real estate
development portfolio. However,
our development company has to
sell its products to other parties.
We are very rigorous in this
regard; if choice A would be to
go directly to our own real estate
funds and choice B to the
market, the market would say
‘keep them’. No, we believe that
all our disciplines should be able
Office building Le Millenium, Sopia-Antipolis,
to stand on their own two feet.”
“I see a very sunny future for
real estate funds in general”,
says Bart Bleker.
“Yes, you can see now how
pension funds are building up
their own real estate apparatus.
They are looking for professional
partners to fill this gap. We
realize that synergy is created if
you have more products, with all
the tax and legal consequences.
The process is faster here than if
you have to invent the structure
yourself”, Jan Doets agrees.
What is also relevant is the distinction
between investment in listed

and non-listed real estate funds.
Jan Doets: “We have clearly
shown in studies that listed funds
show a correlation with stock
market movements. In that sense,
they look more and more like
stock. To diversify your portfolio,
you can use both. If they are listed,
you have the risk – and volatility –
of the stock market, while if they
are non-listed, that risk is absent.”
Hans van Veggel responds, “As a
developer, I see real estate developments
more than ever as a
financial product. Real estate is
more on the lookout for money.
France (Bouwfonds).
I think that a developer has
become much closer to the financial
institutions. That is true for
both the ultimate purchaser of the
project and for the project
financier.”
Ton Meijer endorses this. “I think
as far as that’s concerned, with the
three hats Doets referred to, ING
has the best in-house concept:
financing, development and
investment. Adequate financing is
essential for development. We
consider ourselves lucky with the
financiers who help us to realize
our ambitions. But there are
always the parties who prefer to
Bouwfonds Holding
As a multidisciplinary real estate company,
Bouwfonds offers turnkey solutions for all
problems relating to the built-up environment:
Development, Financing and Asset Management.
Bouwfonds - established in 1946 -
earned its reputation as the largest developer
of owner-occupied houses in the Netherlands Bart Bleker,
and now wants to become one of the leading Member of the Board
real estate companies in Europe. In 2002, the of Bouwfonds
company achieved a turnover of € 436
million, with assets amounting to € 20 billion. Ambitions for the
coming years include acquiring a strong position in the United
States with its finance and investment products.
make a profit as quickly as possible
and move on. If you are also
able to make consistently good
products, and in all modesty we
can do that, then as a developertrader
you let go of too much
value potential. That’s why we
ultimately want a continuous
involvement in our projects.”
Bart Bleker adds, “I think that the
importance of financial engineering
in relation to real estate is
becoming more and more important.
Knowledge of structuring,
the distribution of the product, has
to be linked with knowledge of
real estate. This is an extremely
interesting combination that you
can make excellent use of for your
own development company.” Jan
Doets summarizes, “First, you
need an understanding of real
estate; second, an understanding
of structured finance; and third,
syndication: how do I get it sold.”
Bart Bleker adds, “That way,
interesting returns can be achieved
for our clients as well as for ourselves.
There is enormous growth
in this market, even though the
real estate where it comes from
has already been created. For
financial real estate parties,
there are enormous prospects.”