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minology, they may be more overt in what they’re doing. The people who are for it react out of their beliefs and they support it however they support it. The people who are against it emotionally react out of their beliefs. We go through these motions to act out our emotional reactions but if you look at it historically speaking we haven’t produced any results. We haven’t settled the issues. The missing thing here is using our intelligence clearly and coherently in facing reality. We’re still within the limits of the abstractions of democracy. Either we’re going to serve humanity, either we’re going to be respectful to our creator and create a more balanced reality or were going to be loyal to some dark age belief system that was imposed upon us. We need to think beyond the way we’ve been programmed to believe because the way reality stands right now, you can’t save democracy and save humanity. You can’t do it. If you look at it practically speaking, why would you want to save democracy Democracy in reality means the right of the entitled to rule. But who decides who’s entitled In an ownership of property world, the entitled will always be the ones who own the property. That’s just reality. I’m not advocating this — the only thing I’m advocating is that we use the power of our intelligence to really look at reality very clearly if we want to produce coherent solutions. When I look at where the situation stands now, and I came through the 60’s, I’m talking about how come nothing’s changed How come the beast is worse now than when we started out Our intentions were good, so what’s missing I think the missing link is we didn’t really think – we reacted. And that’s the shift that has to be made now. We’ll see… Lorber: That programming goes back a long way. Back when colonial leaders first showed up here — 22 APRIL-JUNE 2007 JOHN TRUDELL AT ALCATRAZ OCCUPATION PRESS CONFERENCE, 1970. Trudell: It goes back to the fucking Romans, to the Pharoahs, man. It goes way, way back. Lorber: But the techniques have been similar all along, of pitting different groups against each other. Trudell: Yes. Lorber: Like a few hundred years ago it was African slaves versus white indentured servants versus Native Americans so none of them would band together against the ruling class. The same strategy more recently in Vietnam and Iraq where soldiers have more shared interests with the people they’re shooting than with the people who sent them over. But it’s very difficult to overcome the misplaced allegiance and manufactured, artificial fear that’s placed in people. Trudell: It’s difficult to overcome it, but the way it gets done is one individual at a time makes up their mind, “I’m going to be PHOTO CREDIT: MICHELLE VIGNES as coherent as I possibly can.” And we’ll get there, because the change we’re looking at has to happen in an evolutionary context, not a revolutionary context. There is no revolutionary solution. Revolution just means you spin back to your staring point. Oppressor oppressed. A revolution always goes back to its starting point but evolution is more linear. It continues on its own circular manner so to speak, or maybe its all about spirals [laughs]. Evolution continues on and we are a part of evolutionary reality. If we make decisions that we are going be as clear and coherent as we can, we’ll see where we’re at in a couple of years. The power of depression can affect the people around you, well the power of coherence can also affect the people around you. We’ll just replace the power of depression with the reality of coherence one individual at a time and power will spread. Lorber: One way is through the use of language. Corporations and governments have always recognized the power of language to control people. They’ve used it to separate populations from the accurate perception of their surroundings. For example, by making corporations rather than humans the subject of terms like health, growth and efficiency, they have masked what would more accurately be described as profit, hegemony and exploitation. It becomes difficult to even conceptualize a world in which the well being of people is the priority. Resisting that corruption of language and reconnecting it to its human and environmental origins – has that been in your mind as you’ve gone forward as a writer Trudell: No. [laughs] Not really. I’m not surprised by anything that they do. They’re doing nothing new. Historically speaking they’re doing what they’ve always done. To have a small minority ruling class feed off the larger mass. There’s nothing new going on here. The technology, the terminology and the generations change but the system
emains the same. So I’m not surprised by anything that they’re doing. I just started writing because it happened. There was no thought where “I see things more clearly.” There was no thought of nothing. I started writing because it happened and I just follow it. I can’t take any credit. I just went where my life took me, all right. In that attempt to become conscious I just followed where life took me. That’s exactly in the end what happened. Lorber: That’s the way interesting things happen. Rather than coming to some conclusion beforehand and making it fit. Just allowing it to emerge. Trudell: One of the things I learned out of it though that I think is a step in the direction is: knowing isn’t enough. Knowing isn’t enough. It’s understanding what we know. That’s the piece that seems to be missing. We were programmed in school to memorize and to know how to be able to come up with the right answer. Whether we understood or not, that wasn’t important to them. The only thing that was important to them was that we understood to go along with the program. It was actually important to them that we didn’t understand what the program really was. So whatever’s going on here, knowing isn’t enough. Understanding what we know is very important but we can only reach that understanding through clear and coherent use of our intelligence. Lorber: What poets, artists, activists or other people continue to inspire you and lead you in new directions Trudell: Well, that’s a hard one to answer because I don’t want to say names and leave out names. Willie Nelson is one. He’s a big influence. Lorber: How does he inspire you Trudell: He – and Kris Kristofferson’s another one, and Jackson Browne – because they see reality. They understand what’s going on. Things like that, I like. There’s a lot of stuff I listen to that I maybe don’t remember the name. I wouldn’t say I’m hearing a lot, but I’m hearing more and more by different artists that’s heading in the right direction. But I’d say Willie because I just like his style. APRIL-JUNE 2007 23
Page 1: $5.00 #211 APRIL - JUNE 2007
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Page 14 and 15: ANSELM BERRIGAN LOOKS AROUND FROM H
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Page 32: JOIN THE POETRY PROJECT YES, I wish

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