Charles LeRoy Lewis - Special Collections - University of Baltimore

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BALTIMORE NEIGHBORHOOD HERITAGE PROJECT
847 North Howard Street
Baltimore, Maryland 2 120 1
The undersigned Informant Donor does hereby give and grant to the
Baltimore Neighborhood Heritage Project, as a donation to its archival
collection, the material listed below. I also authorize the University of
Baltimore to use said material for the purpose of research, according to the
educational and historical objectives of the Baltimore Neighborhood
Heritage Project. In the event the university decides to discard the materials
~
donated, the donor (or hislher family) must be notified and the material
returned.
099
INTERVIEW #
7-31-79
DATE OF RECEIPT
/J> /777
te f Agreement
-
Signaiure of Intervie
da AL,$$w
Address a€ InterviewerlCallectar
1 Description of Materials: 2 % hours of taped interview, dated 6/19/79 and 7/15/79 1

INFORMATION SHEET
INTERVIEWER: Bill Harvey (with Susan Hawes)
PROJECT: Baltimore Neighborhood Heritage
DATE@) OF 1979. 6.19
INTERVIEW: 1979. 7.15
NUMBER OF 3
TAPE@):
GENERAL TOPIC(S) OF INTERVIEW:
PLACE@) OF Community Center
INTERVIEW:
LENGTH OF 2:30
INTERVIEW:
Education, Work (in mills), Local Associations, Social Life, Business, Citizenship,
Politics
CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE INTERVIEW [PLACES, OmRS PmSENT AND m I R =LATIONSHIP TO TEE INFO=, ETC.]
At Mr. Lewis' request, we did the interview in the Hampden-Woodbury-Remington
Community Center. Audio quality on tape I is lousy, especially side 1. On tapes 2
and 3, audio quality is fair.
PARTS OF PARTICULAR VALUE [TOPICS DSISCUSSD W GFSATES DETAIL, AFS.4 OFPARnCULAR EXPERTISE, ETC.]
Mill life and importance of mills in neighborhood.
Politics, lodges and other groups.
GENERAL EVALUATION [=LIABILITY OFINFORlvMNT, INFOFNATION CONTAIPJD ONTAPE, ETC.]
Mr. Lewis is a very good narrator with an eye for detail and sense of humor.
His memory seems very acute.
POSSIBLE TOPICS FORFURTHERINVES~TGATION
Churches, especially Grace Methodist.
This was a very difficult tape; unintelligible at times, hammering in the background,
lots of mumbling, record player in background rambling on and on.

~ LIST
INFORMANT'S BIOIGRAPHICAL DATA
NAME: Charles LeRoy Lewis 1 YEARS AT ADDRESS: BOARD:~
ADDRESS: 1232 W. 37th St.
TODAY'S DATE: 1979. 7.15 PHONENUMBER:
I I
DATE OF BIRTH: 1903. 2.16 PLACE OF BIRTH: Company House on David Ave.,
RELIGION: Methodist
HOUSE OF WORSHIP: Grace UMC
Masonic Order 1928 -
Mechanics
Golden Rule branches
Optimist Club 1950's
PREVIOUS RESIDENCES:
LIST YEARS:
3510 Ash St. 1908
210 Roland Ave. 1909 - 1915
3648 Beech Ave. (with parents) 1915 - 1924
30th St. (with in-laws)
.37th St.
1924 - 1928
SCHOOLING AND/OR OTHER
Boarding School
F Prep. School
-
TRAINING:
8th grade
Spinning Room, Meadow Mills 6 months
Notions Dept., Hutzler's 5 months
Mount Vernon Mill 2 days (fired)
Weighing, Hooper Mill 1917 - 1919
Steamfitter, Wm. E. Woods Co.
Transit Conductor, no. 10 line
Salesman (after 1932), S&N Katz Jewelers
Salesman, Heiss Jewelers
1919. 2 - 1920

PARENTS~
MOTHER'S
NAME: (maiden) Shipley
DATE OF BIRTH: 1884. 6.17 1 RACE OF BIRTH: Hampden
1 RELIGION: Methodist 1 HER OCCUPATION: Clipper Mill, then housewife 1
1 HERMOTHER: 1 RACE OF BIRTH: 1
1 HERFATHER: 1 RACE OF BIRTH: I
NAME: FATHER's Charles L. Lewis
RELIGION: Methodist
1 RACE OF BIRTH: Ash St.
1 HIS OCCUPATION: Pennsylvania RR
1 HIS MOTHER: 1 RACE OF BIRTH: I
1 HIS FATHER: 1 RACE OF BIRTH: 1
LIST DATES OF BIRTH:
SPOUSE'S
NAME: (maiden) Keith
DATE OF BIRTH:
DATE OF MARFZAGE: 1924
SPOUSE'S RELIGION:
Evelyn 1907. 5.18
Catherine 1911.12.15
Gordon 1919.10.25
RACE OF BIRTH:
RACE OF MARRIAGE: Annapolis (church)
SPOUSE'S OCCUPATION: Telephone Operator
CHILDREN: none
LIST DATES OF BIRTH:

INTERVIEWEE: ROY LEWIS #99
SITE: HAMPDEN #2
INTERVIEWER: BILL HARVEY
DATES OF INTERVIEW: JUNE 19, 1979
JULY 15, 1979
PUCE OF INTERVIEW: HWR comwmrn CENTER
3700 FALLS ROAD
TRANSCRIBER: PAT SMITH
AUDIT/EDTT C0MPLETED:MhY 2gr 1980 by CHRISTINE GREEN
[BEGIN TAPE I SIDE I]
LEWIS ;099 1:l:l
Haxvey: Ok, this interview with M r. Ray Lewis of Barnpden
was conducted by Bill Harvey on June 19, 1979 at the Hmpden
Woodberry Rernington Comnity Center for the Baltimore
Neighbashood Heritage Project.
Ok, Mr. Lewis, you've told me that you started into
school at *he boarding house school down there down in the
Hollow. Can you tell me a little bit what it was like there?
Lewis: Well, it was only four grades at that time, and I

LEWIS :099 1:1:2
of course went into the first grade; I was just a little
under six years old, but I went. And then in February my
people moved in Roland Avenue in what was then the 200
block, which is now the 3500 block. Then I transferred to
55 school; I went to #55 school up to the fifth grade and
when I passed into sixth grade was when they started the
Baltimore advanced schooling. When you went out of that,
you went into the second year of high school. That was
located at Oak Street and 24th Street, which is now H6Ward
and 24th. And I went there up to 1917 when I quit school when
World W ar I1 was on. And then after that I went to work.
But the schools those days were a lot different than
they are now; at the old boarding house we had a nice play-
ground located between the millrace and the falls. And we
had nice teachers and close to home. when we came over to
55 school the lot there was full of gravel stone lot to play
on, and where Paiine Street is now, formerly was Connecticut
Avenue - that was a little swamp in there and marshy. And at
that time - just about that t ime Mr. built the
stucco houses on 36th Street running from just east of Elm
Avenue over to what is now Paine Street. He buflt them, and
of course when I left 55, why the old lot was still rough
like it is now.
Of course, when we went down to 52 school on 24th
Street we didn't have no playground, but Oak Street them days
was paved in cobblestone; wasn't much traffic. Across the
street between the Chesapeake Baking Company and the

LEWIS; 099 1 :1:3
construction company where they stored the terra cotta pipe:
was where we played at. And in those days 24th Street
didn't go through to Sissan Street . . . There was a big
hole there big stream went down through there and the only
way you could get across was go dawn to 23rd Street they had
a bridge across, over where the American Ice Company is now.
And I was going to night schoal, but like all the rest of the
boys, war was on, money was good and I never went back to
night school.
Harvey: OK, was that boarding school far children of people
who worked in the m ill only?
Lewis: No, that was a public school: that was run by the city.
Woodberry School was crowded, and of course they put
these grades down there because they couldn't enlarge over
there.
Now across from Waodberry School west where the church
is there was in the building there that they called the un-
graded school. And boys and girls were bad that's where
they sent them to; from 56 or white school, or . . . 55, not
56 was the old White School, they sent over there. Any of the
unruly children, that's where they sent them to the ungraded
classes they called it over at Woodberry,
And when we took up manual training at 55 we all had to.
go over to the Woadberry to get our instruction; that's
where the manual training teacher was to learn you carpentry,
building and different things the average boy was needing
when you got older and had to do around his home. Of

LEWIS : 099 1:1:4
course, when I went to 52 school that was all done away
with; we didn't have no more manual training - it was more
or less preparing for high school. And 1 m et a few of my
old school mates in Late years; they've all went ahead and
had a good life in Baltimore.
Harvey: Ok, was there any special qualification to get
into the Prep School down there on 24th Street?
Lewis : Well, I guess . People that
was exceptionally fast in picking up stuff and knowing stuff;
in other words, going down there - when we came out of
there we went right into the second year of high school.
We took up language; German and Latin and makhematics, and
down there you changed classes every half hour; you had a
home room, but you didn't have a home teacher. And after
that school progressed so far then they finally moved it -
that was after my time - to Cathedral Street right there
between Preston and Biddle Street. That was the first
school that they picked you out of according to your marks
and quick learners, or whatever you want to say, I call it a
high I.Q. called it: we didn't get the Q or I [laughs].
Hasvey: Were most of the kids in that school f rom Hampden,
or did they come from all over the city?
Lewis: No, they were from all over the city. At 52 school
that was from all the schools in the city sent them there.
I'd say from our section out here we had maybe 25, may 30;
not over that. Because it was not a big school; might have
net been that many-1 never counted, because every six months

LEWIS; 099 1:1:5
they would send another group then. As a group went out,
why a group would come then. We had men principals, which
was unusual, although Woodberry had a man principal - but
most of the public schools had women teachers, principals at
that time. And I don't remember the principal down at the
boarding house, but 55 principal was a woman name of HoPmes.
h d then there was a local teacher from out here; a woman
by the name of Dewalt, She lived down there around 33rd
Street.
And in later years after my t ime Miss Bsoaks on Roland
Avenue was a teacher down there, but that was after my time,
Harvey: Did you say a minute aga that 56 school had been
white school?
Lewis: Yes.
Harvey: What, did they move it down there to Robert Poole?
Lewis: Well . . . white school was up there where Green-
spring Dairy is, that was old white school - it was there
for years. Now, I don't know + . . my wife went there, I
think they only went so far there and had to go to 55, but
1 wouldn't swear to that. But I think they only went so
far and then come down to 55.
Harvey: Did you like going to school?
Lewis: Well, it wasn't a case of liking it; you knew you
had to go. 15 you had schoolitis you couldn't go out, so
consequences we went to school. . . and it had its good
points and its bad points. We used to have to use Sisson
Street going down to 52 or Remington Road. R Tot of boys

LEWIS;099 1:1:6
walked across the of the old streetcar bridge.
That was a shortcut. Of course in them days when you went
down Remington Road had to come back to Huntington
Avenue because Remington Road only went to 29th Street; that
was a big marsh in between there and 26th Street, American
Can Company.
Harvey: Well, why did you stop going to school when you
did?
Lewis: Well . . . I didn't like the teacher I had, and I
was ready to graduate then go to the other school, public school
and go over to Poly - that's where I was going - but the war
was on and I figured ~ ' go d to work in which I did.
Harvey: Didn't you tell me the story once about your last
day in school? How did that work now . . , your parents
went down to see the teacher?
Lewis: Oh teacher used to ask me questions
about people doing stuff and I wouldn't tell her and she
would always set me in a part of the room where I could see
what went on if I wasn't busy with my lessons, and she sent
me home - my mother had to come down and she had a party
fox us at her house on Charles Street. She lived over there
by the name of Rogers. Lived in the 2300 block of North
Charles Street, which was all residents in those days.
And she gave us a party and she introduced me to all of
her guests and she had there, grown guests, as one of her
best pupils.
The next morning the first thing, somebody done some-
thing, she asked me who it was and I wouldn't tell her, and

LEWIS;099 1:1:7
she sent me home. So that was just the thing in those days
you didn't tell anything you seen like that because if you
did you'd have to lick the one that done it, and I wasnvt
a good fighter.
Harvey: Was that the end of your t ime in school?
Lewis: That was near the end of it; right before I stopped.
That wasn't the cause I did stop; actually I had finished
there and I decided things were moving, they were paying
pretty good money in those days. Hadn't got to the big
money yet, but they were paying good money for young people,
and I went to work over in Meadow Mill, in the spinning room
under Isaac McDonald. I worked over there about six months,
then I left,went down Hutzler Brothers; worked there a little
while and then came back over and went to work for a man
named Arminger.. . . twisting room down in upper Mt. Vernon.
And I got my work done and second boss told me to go on
home. So I used to go home; had all my work done. The
next morning when I come in Mr. Arminger asked me if I
left early and I told him yes, Mr. t o l d
me to go home
and he told me not to leave early any more. That day when
I got done my work - had it all done - second boss told
me again to go home, I forget his name. I told h im what
Mr. Arminger said; he said that's alright - you got all
your work done you can ga ahead.
The next morning when I come in Mr. Aminger
told me I was fired. So I went over to W illiam E.
nooper's Mill see my uncle was boss in rope room, Lampwick

LEWIS 099 I :I : 8
Department and he sent me up ts llr. Tipton who had charge
of the twisting roam. Mr. Tipton put me to work and I was
weighing all the yarn that come through William E. Hooper's
1 And of course that give me a lot of time to
myself because you only had to work off the machines that's
taking the full spools off, and I was able to get around all
through the mill and see a lot of the activities, A man by
the name of Wilson was the superintendent at that time.
And over in the old mailbag department they were exper-
imenting with duck an the side of the building. Of course
then they kind along Druid Park Drive and they
put this stuff together figured they make it covered the
whole side because the ships carried torpedoes used
to roll them over the side to plug up the holes. Now
whether it ever worked or not, I don't know: I know they
didn't make many of them.
And 1 worked over Hooper's then until 1919. And I went
to work down William E. Woods and worked there awhile and
then 1 worked for the Transit Company on the 10 line about
eighteen months.
Harvey: Going back to the school thing - would you say that
you quit school to go to work in the mills?
Lewis: I quit school - well, I'd say I was disgusted with
school. I didn't like school any better than any boys at
that age. And then I went to work over at the mill; back
when I quit school I didn"t have a job. Prabably get the
jab the war was on at that time - no problem getting a job.

Anywhere you went they hired you,
LEWIS #099 1:1:9
Harvey: Did you want to continue your education?
Lewis: f figured on continuing my education; then after I
started to work I worked through the spring and summer; then
I finished school in February and in the fall I went down
and enrolled, but I never went. I decided against it.
Harvey: OK, eo then the first job you had was in Meadow
Mill in the spinning room.
~ewis: That" sight.
Harvey: Can you describe the whole process of the mill from
the the the cotton comes in until the time it goes out?
Lewis: Well, in those days it came in and they put it
through blowers and blow it up through pip@
about 12 inches in diameter and went into the card-
ing room and it went in there in long sheets . . .
Harvey: Excuse me, Mr. Lewis . . . [loud record player
interrupts]
Lewis: When it went through the carding they took all the
foreign particles out of the cotton and when they came out the
other end it was about an inch in diameter and it was twirled
around in a fiber holder about three foot tall, a foot across
and when that would get full theyJd put it in another one.
Then after they'd take those up to another machine, run it
through another machine, which they called a spinning machine,
that was ithe first process. And that reduced it down to a thread
about the size of ordinary thin cord. Then when it was re-
duced down to that it was taken down to the spinning mach-
ines it run faster, and they would take maybe four of those

LEWIS #099 1:1:10
bobbins and run down to the spinning machines; of course,
that would make it thicker.
Then it was taken out of the spinning machine which
was on small bobbins - it was taken d m to the spinning
. . . where the women spun it on the bigger spools. They
had a thing fit on their hand that tied knots for them
automatic because this stuff was very delicate and hard to
tie by hand. men they put it on the spool - and maybe it'd
be fifteen to twenty of the small bobbins would go on each
spool. And after that was on that spml they was taken down
to what was called the twisting room. And the twisters
down there made a warp, which was a real tight twist. And
they made a filler, which was a coarser twist - wasn't near
as tight.
And if they wanted ply they would put maybe five
spools up there; that would make it five-ply.. . six spools
would make it six ply or four ply. You notice if you get a
string now and twist it backwards you can see how many
threads was put together and that was called ply.
Then when they left those there at William E. Houper@s
mill, that's when I weighed the yam. The spoofs weighed
so much* the wagon weighed so much, but the twisters all
got paid by weight.
And of course then it was sent down either to the lamp-
wick department where the coarser stuff was sent and the
warp ar tighter twist was sent to the weaving mom where it
was weaved into duck. And then of course, after it was weaved

LEWIS #099 1;1:11
into duck then it waB shipped out and then lampwiek depart-
ment went down.
Now, William E. Hooper also made mailbags for the govern-
ment - c mas mailbags for years they made canvas bags and
that was made over in their concrete buildings. I never
worked over in that part, but I been through there because
my job weighing up I would lot of times have an hour, an
hour and a half with no work to do. And I would go around
the mi31 as long as I kept my work up and the boss didn't
bother me, And I worked there then and in 1919 the war
was over and that's when I left the mills.
But when I was a boy, speaking of the mills, on account
of the transportation, the mills had large tube - four,
five, six of them running from all the mills - Meadow Mill,
Clipper Mill, even down to Mt. Vernon; although Mt. Vernon
did have a railroad siding for the bales to come in at that
time. And there was a bridge there right below where Falls
Road and coming down from Hampden and Falls Road the mills
come together. That's where they brought the
Clipper Mill and Meadow Mill and Drufd Mill and Park M i l l
and Woodberry Mill all had these blowers; where they could
blow it instead of having to haul the bales with the wagon;
saved them time. They were up for many years.
Of course then as modern transportation trucks and
stuff come in, why - and the mills started to close - why
they tore them all down and hand them the other way. And
in Mt. Vernon mill they got permission to cross Jones Falls

LEWIS #099 1: 1: 12
right back the mill and were able to put a siding back
there, take another load of cotton there and bring it right
across the mill and then they could ship their duck and
stuff out. W i l l i a m E. Hooper was all electric, while the
othex mills they run by steam and had belts. Meadow s ill -
the oldtimers w ill remember it - on the Union Avenue aide
had a belt run from the top to the mill clean down to the
bottom where there boilers was and powerhouse was. And
that belt xun all the machinery in the mill. Belt was about
an inch thick and I guess was about two foot wide, It was
a leather belt and that was the drive shaft and power for
all the machinery in Meadow Mill,
And the other mills worked on the same principle, but
of course you didn't see it like you did Meadow Mill because
it was there an Union Avenue side where people could see it.
And of course Meadow M i l l was a showplace - all with
beautiful lawn there, flower center place there - they always
had tulips and all these flowers that bloomed all summer
there by Woodberry Station because that was a train stop
there. People still came out of town to Woodberry Station;
they also got on at Woodberry Station and went away.
But that was my experiences with the m ills . . .
Harvey: Excuse me . . . well, how were they powered at that
time? I think Mr, Ray told me that they switched over to
electricity right around . . .
Lewis: William E. Booper, when he built the m ill it was
electricity - all electric, Mr. Hooperas mill was all electric

LEWIS #099 1:1:13
over on Parkdale Avenue. That was . The
one thing I didn* miss there; a lot of times cord and duck
.would be spoiled - things would happen to it and they had
a machine that we would throw that into and it would turn
it back to cotton. And then it was called because
it was brown and it was used for bedding and stuff of that
sort. In fact, today if you notice any of the bedding
mattresses and all come apart it sort of has a brownish tint
and it's sough-looking; and that's cotton and it was made
into lampwick, and duck, and curd and where the bobbins would
break - instead of wasting that, that was all throwed back
in that machine and made back into cotton. Very fascinating
to watch it work.
Harvey: Well, you first job d m
did you get that jab?
there at Meadow Mill - how
Lewis: Well, 1 walked over into the office and I asked the
man if he was hiring anybody: I don't recall who was in the
office, but I did know some of the men these and he sent me
up to E3r.Isaac McDonald who was the boss of the spinning room.
And =.Isaac McDonald would give me a job . . . my job was to
take bobbins when the girls doffed them I was supposed to take
them down to the spoolers and dump them in the bins for the
spoolers and keep the doffers in empty wagons so they could
keep them all doffing. And that was my job.
And in them days the girls initiated you, and of
course I was initiated [laughs].
Harvey: Well, what happened . . . hm'd they initiate you?
Lewis: Well - I think that would be better left unsaid.llaughs]

LEFIS;Q99 1:1:14
Harvey: You don't want to talk about it . . .? [laughs]
Lewis: [laughs1 . . . No, that would be better left unsaid;
the girls initiated you in those days; we used to talk about
boys doing things - but the young girls had just as bad a
habit as the young boys. Can say it that way . . .
Harvey: We already got you then - you must have forgotten
yaurself because when we had the nostalgia hour down here
you told that . . . [laughs]. . .
~ewis: Well, that's alright . . . . long as it's permiss-
ible - but they were all nice people and everybody was
friendly; everybody lived close by.
Over Hoaper's Miss Bosley on Druid Park Drive used to
sell coffee; of course I had plenty of time was my job about
1L:30 I'd go up there. The people working they'd tell me
they wanted coffee, other things you wanted from the store
and I 'd go up there. And those days coffee come in a can
about 8 inches high, about 4 inches across. And Miss Bosley
used to give them ha15 full or better sf milk and sugar in
it for a nickel, And you a11 - 1 took it up there and,
of course, Miss Bosley would give me my coffee for nothing.
And a lot of othere little things; very nice lady and all
the people worked in the twisting room that I would carry
down these for - they always gave me something every week.
There was no charge for it; X was being paid Zor the company.
I remember one time Helen worked there in the
twisting room and so did Sarah Daley; and they had a big
affair at the Fifth Regiment Armory showing how the trenches

LEWrS;O99 1:1:15
was built over in France and all that sort of stuff and
showing people haw the boys had to fight over there. And
Miss Daley and Miss took me down thexe - that was a
big deal! Even bought me something before they took me
home [1 aughs J .
Harvey: Friends from work .. .
Lewis: They was very nice people; Miss died here
a few years ago and I lost track of Miss Daley many years
ago. Helen lived in the neighborhood; in fact, she
lived on 37th Street just off Hickory Avenue for years and
then she married Ms. Langenfelter lived on Hampden Avenue,
600 block. That's where she lived when she died.
Harvey: Do you remember what hours you worked at Meadow
Mill? Your first job - were you called a bobbin boy . . .
is that what they call it, a bobbin boy?
Lewis: Yes . . . bobbin boy.
Harvey: Do you remember the hours you worked?
Lewis: Well, I worked at Meadow Mill was ten hours, six
days a week. My first pay was four dollars and change,
because Mr. MacDonald asked me how much I had and I told him
it was the most I ever had at one time, and he said if it
was a million dollars it still wouldn't be enaugh.
Harvey: Who was that . . . Mr. MacDonaId?
Lewis: Mr. MacDonald, the boss . . .he knew me and he told
me that and I found out through life, no matter haw much you
made you could always use a little bit more. And thatms
the way life i$. That's what it's all about. If it was up
to you, you'd still be wanting more.

LEF7TS; 099 I :I : 16
Harvey: What did you do with your money when you were paid?
Lewis: Well in those days it was customary for a11 of them
you took it home and gave it to your parents, and they
clothed you. In fact I was working for the Baltimore Transit
and still giving my money to my mother and she made me go
on account of my hours; didn't get home as often
and had to eat out a lot. But up to when I was working for
the Baltimore Transit Company you gave your money up and
your parents took care of it. Of course you got spending
money and you had money to go wherever you wanted to go,
but that was the way it was handled in those days.
Harvey: Did it seem like women worked certain jobs and men
worked athers?
Lewis: In the mill most of the women - very few women worked
in the weaving roam - mast of the women worked in the room
around - and the work I could say would have been a little
hard far men to do because it was finer work. For instance,
when you would take in the twisting room pulling spools down
and twisters into the empty bobbin. Men did run
them - a fellow by the name of run them and a
fellow by the name of Ambrose, both local men - they run
pushers over there and there was maybe one or two others at
a time came in ... but m ost of the women in the spinning
room and the twisting room were women. Now in the carding
room they had more men than they did women, and it was right
dirty up these, dust flying; it wasn't modern like it is
today. Those aays most men chewed tobacco and it's an
unpleasant thing to say sometime, but most of the ladies used

LEWIS ;099 1:1:17
snuff, and it was on account of the air being full of cotton
and so on. Today people still use it, snuff, but for some
reason or another, it seems to be an article that most of
them dongt want to admit using it.
Harvey: Well, what did that do; the tobacco and snuff -
how did that cut down on the dust?
Lewis: Well, by breathing you had that moisture in your
mouth all the time and that moisture in your mouth caught
the cotton instead of going down in your lungs and choking
you up. And they a11 had their awn little private spittoons;
someplace ta spit, you know.
Harvey: I see . . . was that a hard job, the first one?
Lewis: No, none of the jobs was what I'd call really hard.
There was none of the jobs that was too heavy to do,there was
no heavy lifting or anything like that; the wagons all had
wheels on - they were kept in shape, all equipment was kept
good. At; times when we were short of help, I would help the
creel; that would be putting the cotton up on the twisting
frames and that was about as hard a job that 1 had, hut the
bobbins only weighed . . . oh, a couple pounds, not aver five
pounds at most. You had to have awfully big bobbins to weigh
that much. It wasn't a hard job. Of course, I: got paid
extra for that; that's one thing - I'd get two paychecks;
get paid far weighing up and I'd also get paid for creeling.
Harvey: That was weighing up over at Hoaper's now . . .
~e1qj.s: ~ooper's . . . yes. I worked ovex there longer than
I did any of the other. As I say, Mt. Vernon mill - I

LEWIS 7099 1:1:18
wasn't even working there; just two days and over Meadow
Mill was about six months.
And them days we used to come home and go out and play
in the afternoon before it get dark in summertime. And the
only thing you used Union Avenue Jerkwater
was if you walked all the way over to get to the Jerkwater
up Union Avenue you might as well walk the rest of the way
home. While you was waiting for it, i-t: would be loaded and
half the time you had to make some of it get off because
the car couldn't get up the hill with them on. But today
people don't want to walk a block,they park and don't want
to walk a block.
Harvey: Do you remember your bosses in Meadow Mill?
Lewis: Meadow Mill - the only boss I had was Mr. Isaac
MacDsnald - he was my boss, he was the only boss I had up
there. There was a couple men worked there, but at that
time they didn't seem to have much to say to any of them.
I don't remember too many people in the twisting room; a
woman by the name of Parks, a girl by the name of I
I remember them two, and they were about my age.
Over in Hooper's I knew quite a few of them; Mr. -
cause I run around.
Harvey: Was there a union when you worked in Meadow Pill?
Lewis: No, there was no unions in either one of the m ills
when I worked there - na unions at all. Well, in fact,the
war was an you didn't need them; they paid you good money.
Come around selling us Liberty Bonds; every time 1 bought
a Liberty Bond, take out a dollar a week I got a dollar or

Harvey: Ok, go ahead . . .
~ewis: Your bosses were more friendly to you and they tried
to look out for you and if people had trouble at home they
sort of . . , everybody sort of looked out for each other,
The unions in the mills didn't come along until after that.
Before I'd went to work over the mill they tried to start
something over there, but that never materialized.
Harvey: That's before you got there?
Lewis: Well. . .
Harvey: Now, you worked in Hooper from maybe 1916 to 19 . . .
Lewis: NO, '17 . , . 1 went in there Hooper's . . about
latter part of 1917. Worked there until 1919.
Harvey: Ok . . . well, in that time they had a couple of
strikes in the M t. Vernon mills.
Lewis: Well, to my knowledge I don't remember having any
strikes right at that time around before the war was on and
the war . . . the strikes and trouble came after - more or
less organized after that, tried ta organize. They had their
trouble. There had been trouble earlier and they had brought
people in the Meadow M i l l and all, and they had to put
police down there to protect them. Had a little shanty there
at Buena Vista - where Buena Vista and Union Avenue is now;
and they had them two houses . . . they were duplexes on

LE!rlI5;099 f :2
Union Avenue west of Buena Vista where these people lived.
That lasted for about a year, a year and a half: they had
to have police protection for them all the time. But
there was no organization for them, to my knowledge, in
mills after that . . . the organization come after that.
And then those days even during the war there - after the
war started, if you wanted to learn a trade
you had to put up a hundred dollar bond if you stay there
four years and earn your trade.
Most of the labor unions came after that, as far as
the cotton industry is concerned - same way with Poolers.
That more or less came after the war was over, and of course
we were so proud because everyone was working
and so on: even the gun shop you built for Paole back of
Meadow mill - that was still busy fox a couple years after
the war was over. They made them long guns that they used
on railways . . . they were railway guns; took two flat cars
to put them on just to haul them around to shoot thm.
Harvey: Well, when they brought those strike breakers fn,
where did they bring them from?
Lewis: I really couldn't tell you . . . I don't know; they
were foreigners - they were people that weren't from
come in from the south, they were foreigners. Later on, we
had people come in from around Culpepper and all around down
there, later on in years. I knew that from the neighborhood.
But, in World War I most all the people that lived in
Clipper and , Woodberry, Stone Hill, Brookhill,

they were pretty much all native people from around here.
But they only brought these few in, but they kept them . . .
I don't know what kind of work they done, but I know they
couldn't go anywhere without - they had police stationed
there all the time in that little cubicle.
Harvey: Do you remember any fires in the m ills?
Lewis : No fires of any consequences when I was in the m ills
as a boy; even when I carried lunch to my grandfather down
around Mt, Vernon - well, he run carding machines in Mt.
Vernon m ill for years, lower Mt. Verncln for years - and I
used to carry his lunch. When he was up there I used to
carry his lunch in summertime it was on my vacation; got
a quarter a week for six days' work . . . and they were
all nice, dirty, dusty roads - you needed a bath every
evening before you even think about going to bed.
And the boys up an Mt. Vernon throw stones
sa all you had to do was push them, they was down in the
road there on Falls Road and had us dancing trying to duck
stones and not upset the lunches. In those days the wives
all sent hot lunches to the men working in the m ills when
you worked Mt. Vernon to Clipper.
And of course somebody has to work in the mill to live
in the company houses; and regardless of a lot of things that's
said about companies - when there was no work in the mills
and they were closed, the people didn't have to pay rent,
You didn't have to worry about getting shipped out, and the
company would haul wood and stuff through there for them.

LEWIS;099 I:2:22
And, of course you know as the world progressed, things
have got so that people haB to have somebody to represent
them. In those days we all knew each other and represented
each other. Unions are a good thing if people attend, but
unions are nothing because half the member don't turn and
just a few people attend, and a union's only as strong as
its attending members. If it has a thousand members and
twenty people attend, they don't have a union; they have
something that's just working to suit the few that is.
Where if they all attend, they know what's going on.
Harvey: Was that good times during World War I? As far
as the mills were concerned?
Lewis: Well, people - it was good t imes because we made
good money . . . I mean, when the war started people were
working, making - the best mechanics wasn't making over
ten a week and they were up, way up above that. 1 went to
work first week, as I said, for four dollars and change
and then when I left, you know, I was making around nine-
teen dollars, and hardly had reason to strike. But, of
course it was like in all wars the company's working on a
percentage the government guarantees them so much profit on
their investment . . . we're still paying tax some of that
money [laughs] .
Harvey: Now, the Koapers lived right in Hampden, didn't
they?
Lewis: Well, in my time he didn't live right here in Hamp-
den, but they Lived up in Mt. Washington not too fax, but

LEFqIS;099 I:2:23
they had lived in Harnpden and their bosses - the boss of
Meadow m ill, the big boss over there was the Bowersox. He
lived at the big house at the corner of Buena Vista and
Union; the boss down at Mt. Vernon lived in what is now the
Crittendon home, and the boss at Clipper lived there in the
3500 block of Poole Street in that big stone house on the
east side of the street.
And af course some of the other bosses had better
houses than others.
Harvey: How about the owners of Mt. Vernon; where did they
live?
Lewis: Well, Mt. Vernon at that time when 1 was a boy -
Mt. Vernon, Clipper, Meadow, Druid Mill Park and Woodberry
M i l l all belonged to one company. They all belonged to one
company. They separated as years went on, sold them all.
Wasn't too long . . . in the twenties, they sold
mill; in fact the first voting machines Baltimore had were
made in Druid M ill. They also made washing machines down
there,
Harvey: Did you eves know those owners of the Ht. Vernon
mf L ls?
Lewis: No, I never knew them at all . . . you never seen
the officials - the big offices were downtown. William E.
Hooper - you seen Mr. Hooper and his family because they're
office was right there at the mill, you did see them. They
didn't come through the mill often; but I'd say Mr. Billy ~ilson,
elderly man, he was superintendent of everything at ~ooper's.

LEWIS;~~~ I:2:24
But Booper's came there to work and were active over there.
Harvey: You know the organizations, like you were in the
Mechanics . . .
Lewi s : r Yes.
Harvey: . . .And then the other organizations were . . .
Lewis: Well, in those days there wasn't no television and
radio; we had a lot of organizations - had patriotic organi-
zations , and the Red men, Women of the World,
Patriotic Sons of America, Junior Order of United American
Mechanics. The Odd Fellows met cut here, but they didn't
have their building here; you notice the building was built
until '22. Golden Rule Council Junior Order of Mechanics
known as the pool room now where that little restaurant is
now between and we rented one side upstairs
was rented out to Murphy Brothers, downstairs was folks who
had a pool room and then there was a drug store next to the
pool reon and the Purity Company had a branch
there in that little store that's now a restaurant, And
then there was two councils of the United American Mechanics
out here because one was too big to handle it; one was the
Golden Rule Council, the other one was Monumental. A lot of
the men, some of the older men still living were active in
them. I was Past Councilor in Golden Rule, past Councilor,
I think was still living, he was past Councilor. George
Garrett was very active: he worked in the mill as a section
hand - he was very active in the Golden Rule Council.

LEWIS; 099 I : 2 : 25
Harvey: That's what I wanted to ask you about: Did the
Junior Order of Mechanics or the or the Red
men's or any other ones have anything directly ta do with
the mills?
Lewis: Well, all the men worked in the mills and one thing
and the other it didn't hurt to belong to these organizations
if it would give you a little headway to talk to some of
them - the different bosses belonged to them all, And even
in those days, although they didn't mention it, the Ku Klux
Klan was out here; they was organized - they met out here.
Which it wasn't a bunch of radicals; they were average people.
Harvey: Did they have anything directly to do w ith the
mills?
Lewis: No, just working men; most of them were men that
worked there - different kind and in different rooms and
in different way. Most of the mills had their own blacksmith
shops and a11 that stuff; they made a lot. of their own mach-
inery and helped repair it.. They had a lot of activities,
like outings. The junior orders they sponsored a young
men's organization - they called them Junior Rifles. They
used to go to ~olchestex two weeks on an outing. They go
with rifles and all.. For many years; in fact until the
Grand Axmy got disbanded in World War I1 came, they
used to go up in St. Mary's Cemetery and decorate the graves
of the C ivil Wax veterans and the Spanish American veterans.
There were a few Spanish American vetexans buried at St.
~ary's. That was a big thing: everybody out here on Decor-
ation Day - you had good baskets of flowers do them up and

LEWISi099 I:2:26
paid respect to them and all the Grand Army and even
the Spanish Wax - they always had a L ittle American flag on
every one of the graves and you be surprised just how many
veterans are buried up there.
Harvey: Bow about those outings that the m ills had?
Lewis: Well, they used to have an outing; m ost of them used
to go to Tolchester, and sometimes they went to Dreamland,
went to Chesapeake Beach, which is now known as South Beach.
And Dreamland we used to leave a-t the foot of Broadway.
But that was mostly a boat ride; you only had a couple hours
there and to get into the beach down there you had about a
mile to walk on the pier. The water was that shallow there,
the boat couldn't get any closer. And time you got in and
looked around a little, it was time to get on the boat and
come back up. Where at Tolchester you go down and you had
five or six hours at Tolchester and then you also would run
moonlights down there. Sometimes they would run moonlights
and the churches did that, too, and also the churches out
here used to take picnics to Gwynn Oak.
Very few picnics went to Riverview because they sold
beer down there and at Gwynn Oak they didn't sell beer
[laughs]. Before prohibition, of course, and of course
Riverview was nice because they had the old German band, "oom
pah" band played down there every Saturday and Sunday after-
noon and all holidays. Had plenty seats down there could
listen to the band. In late years a couple of them had their
picnics at . . . down below Sparrows Point, Bayshore. They

LEIQIS; 099 I :2: 27
had them down there. And right below Bayshore was another
little park and during World War I the government built con-
crete ships; they were built of concrete, and they were used
to ship grain and stuff in towed to different places. The
last time I was down at that little place park down there,
the ferry used to come over from the Eastern Shore and pick
you up there coming into Baltimore, and
they had sunk them concrete ships down there for bulkheads.
And we had a lot of fun an those picnics; as I say, it
was something to look forward to. In those days when you
got in the horse and buggy and rode up as far as Greenspring
Avenue and Old Court Road, you had ta stop and have your
picnic and it was time to turn around and come back. So it
meant a big thing in those days - that was what our picnics
were all about and places we went. And old Light Street was
cobblestone. Everybody had their baskets with picnic food
in them. Everybody ready to go to bed when you got home
around nine or ten o'clock; when they get home - they didn't
have to be rocked to sleep, they were tired.
And people were very congenial; never had no trouble,
don't remember ever having any trouble, even though in those
days I wasn't old enough to buy but You could buy beer on the
boat . . .soft drinks wasn't such big sellers in them days,
it wasn't as many of them around as there are today; same as
ice cream.
Of course, some people want to go back to the good old
days; I think these good days we got right now - they can

LEW3S;099 1:2:28
have all them good old days. We have electric lights now
and the old coal oil lamps and the outhouses; now you got
everything. Used to live in the kitchen - ninety percent
of people lived in Hampden, Woodberry and Mt. Vernon lived
in the kitchen in the wintertime. The only time the par-
lor was used was Christmas and somebody died. Furniture
last forever because it was never used. Today you live
in all your home; you have heat, you have electric, you
got nice paved streets, you got transportation. And people
talk about the good old days, they forgot about the good
old miseries we used to have.
Harvey: On those mill outings - did the mills ever have
carnivals down in the hollow ?
Lewis: As fax as I know none of the mills did - different
organizations had carnivals and the churches used to have
affairs. They used to have strawberry festivals and
things like that, but the only . . . I remember Grace
Church back on 37th Street between what is now Chestnut
and Elm Avenue there was a field there, Thorpems
field. They had a carnival there one time. Most of the
carnivals that came to the neighborhood were sponsored by
different organizations and out of town. But most of the
things we had would be strawberry festivals, crab cake
dinners and oyster suppers to raise money for the
church and the people got together. Today, most af that
stuff now - I guess you call them something similar to
flea markets. Because food has got so high now it
doesn't pay the churches, they don't have enough help to

LEKfSi099 I:2:29
have those kind affairs. In those days people attended
their churches; boys and girls in those days had no choice.
You know they either went to Sunday School and church or
you didn't go out and play on Sunday. Today you don't have
that and, of course, church attendance is falling off and
people don't go The churches here, all the
churches in the neighborhood now - probably get, one church
could accomodate, two at the most, all that goes. In those
days we needed a13 the churches because people went to
church.
Harvey: You mentioned earlier that there was no beer in
Hampden .
Lewis: No beer in Hampden until after prohibition.
Harvey: They called that local option.
Lewis: Local option, and the company houses;.beer companies
had wagons delivered beer in this neighborhood, but they
couldn't deliver any on the company property. The closest
place you could get beer to Hampden was Huntington Avenue
below 23rd Street. It was a saloon about halfway dawn the
block. You go across through the park to Fultdn Avenue, or
you could go up Falls Road the othes side of the railroad
tracks at Bear Bill, Or you go out on Greenspring Avenue
north of Avenue was called ~oach's Park. Or you
could go out Park Heights Avenue, which was quite a ways to
go a Of course after you got below 23rd Street there was
saloons on North Avenue, Howard Street, There was also a
saloon at and Falls Road; a man by the name of
Stocksdale run it. And halfway down the block was another

ZEWIS;099 1:2:30
one that was - the people down in that block on Falls Road
north of Maryland Avenue, where Falls Road comes there was
houses there from Maryland Avenue down to Lafayette and then
from Lafayette down to Mom and Poppa's Station, and there
was another saloon down there; there were all Italian people
lived down there.
Of course those days saloons had to all close at twelve
o'clock and closed Sundays. Nobody could sell any booze an
Sundays; package stores - there was no such thing as package
stores. And the county when they had oyster roasts and crab
feasts at these different parks - Herring Park and those
kind of places, they could serve beer and stuff to drink.
Butthat was out in the county at those special affairs.
Different people sponsored those affairs, especially German
a£ fairs,
It was like Gwynn Oak when the Germans had their big day
out there; there was plenty of beer brought in out there -
none sold - but they was allowed to bring it in and, of
course as most people know, most German people who drink
beer know how to handle it. And there was always a lot of
singing and one thing and another - Gwynn Oak and Germans
they was out there.
Harvey: Well, how did that local option work here? Why
was it that beer ar any kind of liquor couldn't be sold
in Hampden?
Lewis: Because the mills . . . when they bought the property
out here to build the mills, had that incorporated in it
because they knowed drinking only bred trouble. Of course,

~EW1s;Q99 I: 2 :31
I've heard people say - and naturally I was too young to
even think about buying it - they" be kicking me in the
backside if I'd even thought about it - but I understand
there were places if you was known that you could buy a
drink on the side, In other words, bootleggers,or whatever
you might want to call it.
Harvey: Do you remember any of those places?
Lewis: Well, no, they were very careful in those days; I
know I heard them laugh about one place - in fact, it was
under where 1 formerly lived later on. But it wasn't
there when I lived there; they used to sell whiskey and the
man run the place used to sell it a nickel a shot. And on
pay day when we got paid once a month, he had good whiskey,
cost ten cents a shot. The difference was it was poured out
of the old jug into a fancy jug . . . and a nickel. more.
Of course them days was all before my time and I'd
heard names mentioned, but I don't repeat hearsay; I didn't
know, and I don't think it's right to use hearsay to say.
But the story about the ten-cent whiskey was evidently true,
because a lot of them laughed about it; and they only had the
ten-cent whiskey on payday. But it was the same whiskey they
drank all month for a nickel.
Harvey: Well, why do you think the mill owners wanted to
exclude liquor from being sold?
Lewis: Because liquor breeds trouble; you get people losing
time from work. You have it today; you have men that are
good mechanics. Call them alcoholics or whatever you want;

LEWXS;099 I:2:32
they'll get drunk on Saturday and Sunday and they ain't able
to go to work en Monday. And the mill depended on the
people - they wanted you to work; they didn't want you work
if you was sick, they were human . . . but they didn't have
a lot of dxinking and carrying on. You had any trouble in
the company house f rom drinking or anything, you had to move.
They didn't want them kind of people; they wanted people
that helped them - the kind of people that made this country
what it is today and built it up.
In late years you've seen what liquor's done; it" same
back, our countryvs losing its standing in the world. We
have more dissention in this country than we've ever had -
nobody knows believes the other guy is any good. Everybodyts
trying to take somebody, and it's time people start to real-
ize they're only going to yet three things out of life: that's
enough to eat, a place to sleep and clothes to clothe their
nakedness. You pay a hundred dollars to five hundred dollars
for a suit - only clothing. If they pay a dollar for a
meal or ten dollars for a meal, only fills their stomach.
And if they got a house with fifteen rooms in, they can only
sleep in one bed.
And it" time people started to realize it ain't how
much you make; it's what you do with what you do make. I
found that's been a very good principle in all my life; I
had nobody to back me and I had to look out prepare for my-
self and the Lord's been very kind to me. Hard work didn't
kill me; I worked long hours and still live as foolish, but

I don't think it was foolish. I've had a niee life and met
wonderful people. It's one of the greatest privilege people
have in meeting nice people. You all remember the people
that ain't nice, but if you look around you know a thousand
niee people to every bad one you know. So look at the nice
ones and just forget about the bad ones.
Harvey: O.K. . . . let me try a long shot on you: do you
remember a co-op down on 28th street - Heath, Robey & Martin
co-op. , .
Lewis: Yes, Frank Robey and Heath and Martin; they worked
in the mill together: and they opened that store as a co-op
dawn there.
Harvey: About when was that, do you know?
Lewis: I would say that was about 1920; in the era from 1919
to '22, something like that* They run it: Will Martin,
Frank Robey, and the other fellow I didn't know too well.
I didn't know Heath very well,
Harvey: Is this the same Robey that . . ,
~ewis: Frank Robey that was your Clerk of the Common Court
Pleas, Court of Common Pleas, was the man that was in on it,
yes, same man. When they closed up down there, Frank opened
the store there at 40th Street and Falls Road. Right now its
a barber shop in there. And then Frank ran it and he had
a fellow came out there worked for him. 1'11 tell you his
name in a minute . . .from Eastern Shore. He worked there
as a butcher, and when Frank opened a laundry on Hickory
avenue and had got into politics, this boy took it over.

LEWIS; 099 I:2:34
Very nice boy; Mrs. Robey deserves a lot of credit. Frank
wasn't a college man - he was a self educated man and he done
a lot for our neighborhood . . . a lot for it. ~ u t he was
one of them that run it, but it was an attempt just one of
those things didnt t work at that time.
Harvey: What was it, food?
Lewis: Food, yes . . .all food, strictly food - no furniture
nothing like that. And it was strictly food, and they were
these - they might have been there longer, but I would say
three or four years at the most,that they were down there
and they were very nice. Will Martin, he married Daisy-
- my grandmother she was an orphan my grandmother raised her,
Daisy . That's why I know them so w ell, and I knew
Will so well. Daisy died a good while ago - Will ain't been
dead too many years.
Harvey: Will Martin - he's dead.
Lewis: Yes, he's dead; so's Frank Robey. I didn't know
Heath.
Harvey: O.X. . . . one last question. Maybe we can wrap it
up with this one. Why do you think the m ill owners had these
places out here?
Lewis: Had what places?
Harvey: The m ills.
Lewis: The mills . . . well, in them days the mills had to
depend on the water. Don't forget, those mills operated on
water as well as they did on steam when they first started out
- it was practically all water power. And naturally they

LEWIS ;099 I:2:35
needed water for steam and race. One race they had the dam:
I' don't know if it's still standing back of Park Mill up
there - that's where the water was diverted and come around
into Meadow Mill. And they had one up above there where it
came down into that m ill . . . Park M ill, came into that
and that was diverted up near the trestle, where the Penn-
sylvania Railroad trestle, Then the one that back
of Milford Mill there come down to Meadow M ill. There was a
pool over there that water coming in they could run it back
over the falls. But that run on down to Clipper Mill, supp-
lied water for Clipper Mill - for their toilets and their
machinery. Then down at Mt. Vernon that dam is
practically washed out in there that's where their water was
diverted and went in.
And the power was all made down in the lower Mt. Vernon
Mill and the belt that formed the power up upper Mt. Vernon
Mill crossed Falls Road. You know that mill where we was in?
That's upper; the lower was down below and they had a big belt
that went across the road up there. A11 the way up at that
mill and turned the wheels up there and run the machinery up
there.
Harvey: Well, when I asked why you think they had the mill
out here, do you think they'd have had them if they hadn't
been making money off people working for them7
Lewis: Well, the mills . . . w ell, any company goes in
business is going to make money. The difference in our
country and Russia is that you've got the ability to do

LEWIS ;099 I:2:36
something but don't have the money, so I put the money up so
you can do it, and we split the profit. In Russia the govern-
ment does it and they give you what they want back. The man
who produces don't get any more than the man that don't
produce during the whole business. In other words, a man
can have all the abilf ty in the world, but if he can' t
borrow moneyF he can't do the job. It's just like the men
you take today; you have men today small contractors that
built hames; you have to give them so much down so they can
get the foundations in. Then aftex they get the foundation
in, you give them so much money to build the floor, you
give them so much money as you progress with the building.
And if you didn't do that, they couldn't build; they don't
have the money.
It's the same way; it" one of the biggest conceptions
with the American public: they read the headlines of our
newspapers, which is very misleading; they'l tell you how
many million dollars . . . they'll say General Motors made,
but they forget to tell you how many million stockholders.
And it's news to a lot of people; they don" want to believe
you when you tell them that none of our big companies, such
as Chrysler, General Motors, IBM, Exxon - any of those big
companies - nobody owns as much, no individual owns as much
as one-half of one percent of their stock.
Our biggest company in the United States is International
Telephone and Telegraph; the biggest corporation in the world.
md nobody owns as mueh as 25/100 percent of thefr stock.

LEWIS ; 099 I:2:37
But when you take, and when they say how many millions they
made you forget how much divided up. And one of the nice
things about America is . . . everybody can buy stock.
There is no law against St, and a lot of the stock, most of
the stocks sells for under fifty dollars a shaxe. Same of
it sells as cheap as - good stack sells as low as ten dollars
a share.
And, of course you have gambling stock. But these big
companies make it possible for you. You take employees
working for a company can pay for it out of their payroll
with no broker's fees, You take just recently the gas and
electric company; if you buy some of their stock through a
broker, from then on you can send so much a month and they'll
buy it for you with no broker's fees. And today, I didn't
look just last night, but this plan's bearing nine percent;
that's more than the banks give you on your money that you
don't need. Nobody should close out their bank account to
buy stock.

[BEGIN TAPE I1 SIDE 11
Harvey: This interview for the Baltimore Neighborhood Her-
itage Project with Mr. Roy Lewis of Hampden was conducted
on July 25, 1979 at the Nampden Woodberry Remington Community
Center by Bill Harvey, with an assist from Susie nawes,
We'll talk about a lot af the things we just been talk-
ing about so we can get it on tape.
Mr. Lewis, you told me that you've been a Republican all
your life - that's a little unusual for somebody around
Hampden - how did that happcn?
Lewis: Our whole family are Republican and during the Civil
War, why . . . Northern people were all Republicans and this
neighborhood here has always been Republican. There were a
few Democrats here; up until after 1920 this was strictly a
Republican stronghold. Until like the City Council or any-
thing you had your Republicans in this area - and later
years come along, Mr. Burke and M r. John ~unnigan, they were
Democrat precinct workers. Mr. Sharkey Vates I he worked in
the precincts and as these people came up from the south
other people were moving away and it turned into a Democrat
neighborhood, just the same as it is today.
These are two precincts over here; the 23rd and 24th
are in the 4th Ward; they're the only two precincts in it -
we're all two white precincts in a all colored Ward . . .
13th Ward, 4th District. And that's the way its been . . .
it's just like years ago the neighborhood was definitely

LEWIS; 099 II :1: 39
proud one . . . although we had St. Thomas's Church in
there for many, many years. But they never associated together
in those early days. Those days, Catholic boy went with Cath-
olic girls, Protestant boys wentwith Protestant girls. Of
course as you know, those things were all changed now. It's
time w ill heal and change all things, there's no question
about it. Not unusual for marriages now, inter-marriages in
the religious. . .as well as in some places of the races,
And the community has progressed right along. I don't
knsw whether it's any worse or any better off. And just like
our old merchants years ago, Kennedy - you had to belong
to the Catholic Church to work for him. McCormick's, Lever
Brothers, you had to be Protestant - if you wasn't Protestant,
you didn't work for them. And it was just like years ago when
L remember as a young boy first Jewish merchant we let come
in the neighborhood. It was Harry Hockrnanf little store
there just part of Cavacos . . . maybe eight foot wide, and
when he opened up there he had to close up and be out of the
neighborhood around 6 o'clock at night. And Harry
come out here fox years, and eventually came out here and
become one of our successful merchants and owned a lot of
property.
There were a lot of nice Jewish merchants out here, but in
those days prejudice was up again.
Hawea: When was that . . . when did Hockman's first open up?
Lewis : Hockman come out here I 'd say about 1910, 1912 . . .
in that area; I couldn't say exactly, and that was when 36th

Street . . . the places set back, they wasn't all built
out, Cavacos was, but they wasn't. Ruth McKenzie and all
them places set back and at the carner up there- Weinstein.
Used to call it Cherry Row sornebocfy said - I don't know, I
wouldn't verify that.
Like Hickory Avenue on the southwest corner had a
front yara there and a grocery store there set back. Then
there was two houses set back and then the next house that
set back barber shop. In them days where the shoe-
maker shop is places you had to go 5 or 6 steps to get to
the delivery room; since then the floors have all been
lowered. And in the hall there - the apartment where the
El Paso and all, that was McCann's Hall. Then they tore
that MeCann's Hall down and built up.
And this man to go in and then wash away when he got done
putting doors and windows in the back, the place was fin-
ished he built a spite wall - it's still up down there.
I mean like that . . . and where G rim's Restaurant
was, Thompson's had a grocery store.
Hawea: You said something about having to be a Protestant
to be a foreman in the mills.
Lewis: Well, mostly everybody worked in the m ills was Prot-
estant - there was no question about it. It wasn't that
many of them out here, see. In fact, in a lot of places you
worked in the kids they used to fight among themselves; used
to holler Catholic - you know, they say ~atholic and all
that kind of stuff, you know. But, as I say, that stuff

LEv7IS fO99 II:I:41.
has all gone over the road now. These's a few people now
that's prejudiced, but such a minority you wouldn't know
where to find them, see.
RaWeS: Was there one area where Catholics Lived?
Lewis: Well, they lived through the neighborhood; but they
were clans, to put down in plain fact people were clannish in
those days, that's all there is to it.
Harvey: Were there divisions among the Protestants? Maybe
was tension bekween Baptists and Methodists . . ,
Lewis: Well, the families; some of them were southern
sympathizers - they went to the Protestant church and the
northern people went to the Methodist or Episcopal. And you
had Mt. Vernon and Grace, Woodberry was Methodist Episcopal,
and Hampden Church was Methodist and Protestant. See, Hampden
Church ain't been built so many years . . . Oh, 3 say many,
maybe better than fifty years - but that was just a little
church set there. A fellow by the name of Reverend Stone
come here. And the congregation helped to build that
foundation and all. there. For his house first: they built
the house first and then later on they built the church.
Another fellow by the name of Arch Ford was a great
organizer; he built one of the biggest bible classes in the
country here - people come from all over the country here
to see it. He had 500,000 members down there. He go round
Sunday morning around these fellows who didn ' t go to church,
and he, himself, I always felt no disrespect to
Reverend Stone that Archie Ford was actually

LEI~IS~C)~~ 11:1:42
the church. I always thought that he. . .and a lot of people.
Hawes: Did the churches have anything to do with politics?
Lewis: No, no . . . politics was never talked in church.
Politics are discussed more in places now. You went down
the recreation building you couldn't discuss politics there.
Like if you say here and I hear polities there - really
shouldn't be, but i t's done. I mean, I don't mean that to
be nasty . . . I don't go for that, but in those days that
wasn't done, see. Oh, the men got on the corners and dis-
cussed and walked out and talked among themselves and they
had their political campaigns. And of course as always
there was always booze to be given outtlaughsl.
And I worked in the neighborhood here and old Sharkey
used to be down in the 23rd precinct. Used to stand down
there by Jake Fair's store, that's by. . .below the school
there and I worked in the neighborhood and Sharkey said,
"You voted yet?" "Nope," I said, "1 ain't going to vote un-
less you get a drink." Sharkey said, "I haven't got a
thing." Well, I was working - I wasn't going to drink any-
way, "Well, don't: talk to me about voting; if my vote ain't
worth a drink, it ain't worth it." I went on down and walked
around and come back up through there and Sharkey standing
there and he called me over and said, "Come on down the
alley a minute, J got you a drink! " Ilaughs] He didn' t
know I was a Republican, as far as that goes; 3 got a kick
out of it. Of course, personally, the farthest thought from
my mind was a drink because I was working. The two of them

LEW9S;099 I1:1:43
don't go together. I went to people's homes and I said I
dian'e want to go there smelling of booze.
But today I think it's much nicer - people are more
friendly in certain ways; of course they're not as close as
it was in the old neighborhood. In the old days people
took care of each other. Somebody got sick, somebody in
the neighborhood there took care of him. Up at night, the
womenfolk . . . same way with food, cooking, looking after
children. You didn't have all this welfare and all this to
go to because they took care of their own: they shared. And
I hated to see that go away because people did know each
other, they were friendly and those days you didn't have
ice boxes to keep stuff like you can keep now. So if you had
a lot: of stuff you gave it to a neighbor. Wasn't because
the neiqhbor couldn't afford to buy it, it was because
you had it. And they done the same with you.
Today if you go to hand something to a neighbor , why
they get insulted. I mean, I laugh . . . I just went
down to visit some friends and brought back 30, 40 fish.
And we don't eat too much fish at home. There's no use
bringing them up here to give away. Could have gave them
to somebody - Oh, there must be something wrong with it or
we wouldn't be giving it to you [laughs]. 1 was going to
buy crabs to bring up, but they were steamed Sunday and
Sunday when they're busy, same boys get careless. If I'd
have stayed until Tuesday, I'd have bught - -
What do you think steamed crabs are worth down there? You

LEWIS; 099 I1 : It44
won't believe this - jirnmy crabs - four dollars a dozen
steamed. And jimy crabs are all male and heavy crabs;
they ain't - crabs down around the crabbing place when
you say jimy crabs they'll sell you crabs . . . four
dollars a dozen.
Rawes : Who were like and John Dunnigan and Sharkey
. . , who were they supporting?
Lewis: Well, they were Democrats - they were the ones, they
come along; didn't matter who the Democratic candidate was -
that's who they were for.
Hawes : But there wasn't anybody . . .
Lewis: We51, I mean you could go back to the cops and all
the different ones there - I don't remember all of them back
there . . . I mean, Wilson. Let's see, who wasn't running
there In the twentieth row; Wilson was running in the sixteenth
I'm trying to think who run in the twentieth. . ,Narding beat
him, but I'm just trying to think who it was. I did know,
too. and then Coolidge was running in'24. It
was three of them running at that time - an Independent, a
Democrat and Republican. That was the first election 1 voted
in - '24.
Harvey: Well, hew about local politicians in that time; say
for City Councilman and that sort of thing?
Lewis: We never had any City Councilman out here in my time
and we never , . . we had Johnny Krebs was in the House of
Delegates; he was a Democrat. We did have a couple ef them.
But Johnny's the only one I remember. ~ u we t were never able

LEWXS;099 II:1:45
to put a delegate in from over here. They used to call
Roosevelt Park before they named it, and of course
Roosevelt Park after the first Roosevelt, but it used to be
West Park. West was a prominant Republican politician.
Hawes: Was there samebody they answered to . . . was there
some more powerful person in Baltimore that they answered to?
Lewis: Well, back in those days . . . I'm trying to think
. . . Sonny Mahon, padgett, those fellow Democrat leaders. ~adgett,
he was down toward South Baltimore, Brooklyn. Sonny Mahon was in
around Fremont Street and in through there. I trying to think
of the politicians over East Baltimore. Then after he
passed on Willie Curran come along. Well, them people used to
give out Christmas baskets and everything else, And, of
course in those days the 'R' hotels were headquarters for
the Democrats. That was always a Democrat headquarters
there, at the 'R' Hotel.
Harvey: How do you figure that they were never able to
elect a councilman from Hmpden?
Lewis: Well, I really don't know why and I wouldn't want to
say - I don't know; there wasn't many out here that run for
it. I don't remember; only token running like Buck Griffiths
he run and Lizzmos: of course that was in late years.
Frank Robey" only elected and he was a Democrat. Frank was
elected to the Clerk, and he had it until he died.
Frank lived in this neighborhood; foreman worked in the
mills, worked his way up, store and he went into the laundry
business here on Hickory Avenue where they tore out.
down there. And he never carried this district in an election.

LENIS;O99 II:1:46
Yet he was elected city-wide for years, yet he was a Demo-
crat. Bill Fischer,he run for Mayor from out here, but he
wasn't elected - he was a Democrat politician.
awes : He was from Hampden . . , Bill Fischer
Lewis : Yes, lived there right below Church. Bill
played the violin and he had a orchestra: used to go around
play at affairs and all, nice fellow.
Hawes : And he ran for City Council?
Lewis: No, he run for Mayor, but he had a big job sawn
there in the Braening Administration and he helped, I*m told,
afterwards and he got a lot of boys out there and then Paul
Zimmerman - he was a Republican ward leader out here for years-
13th ward- he got Broening, put him down there in Municipal
Building and even though when Broening let us, Democrats come
in, they all kept Paul On - a good man. He was fair with
people. Paulkept that job until he died. Pauldied about '38,
'39. Re was Republican Ward out there. I tell you,
nobody wants those jobs: they're thank you jobs.
back . , . oh, I wasn't up here lonq bought this house they came and
wanted me to take precinct, then they come back and wanted me to take
ward leader. I told him no, I wouldn ' t do it, I work and I didn ' .t: have
it, I mean, it takes time for them kind of things and I wasn ' t in
for politics myself and a lot of o ther men wasn't. And t he only
way I took the precinct - the Republican party is a minority
party in this district and most of all Baltimore, but I believe in
the two-party system. I never voted a straight ticket in
my life; I vote for people. I look at what they're doing,

LEWTS;Q99 If:1:47
I don't make my mind up the week before election, My mind
is made up a long time before election whether a man deserves
to go back or not, and I feel that way. Mr. Keller got me to
work up an Cox Street; somebody didn't show up, and then, as
soon as they could,thcy got somebody in on it . , . Gordon
Parrish had the precinct down here and they wanted me
to take that and I told them no. And then Gordon got sick
and they got me to come down and Gordon wouldn't take it any
more.
HaweS : Parrish who ran the cleaners?
Lewis: Parrish used to live across the street there where
the barber shop is, Of course, he's dead now and Gordon
said no, he wanted me to keep it. And it was alright; I
mean it didn't intexfexe with work any. Of course I didn't
attend any meetings and stuff, I had to go down Election
Board for instruction at the election. And the disgrace of
the whole thing is the city or the state, whoever had charge
of the ELectian Board, does not pay the minimum wage. I don't
know how they getting away with it.
Harvey: So that was your job as a Republican judge at the
polls, you mean?
Lewis: That's the only thing I ever done; I never bothered.
I get literature and stuff, but I get: that mostly because I
liked the different representatives, about things I don't like
or think ought to be done. But out here I don' t think any of the
younger people were really Stoeksdale, he was a judge, he
was a Republican. There are different appointments they get.

LEWISt099 II:I:48
but they very seldom run for the office. Johnny Krebs,
the only one; belonged to the House of Delegates.
Harvey: When was he around now, do you know?
Lewis : That was around . . . I can pinpoint that , . , Johnny
was elected around '23 and he was in up until about '27 oz: '28.
He was a little little short guy.
Harvey: What was his . . . do you remember what
he ran on - what kind of issues he addressed?
Lewis: No, I couldn't . . . because I was away when he . , .
I guess generally it was 1922. But when 5 come home Johnny'
was in the House of Delegates. In those days you had
issues you got like - now. They always have some big thing
they're going to do. It's like now - they keep the country
in a turmoil - right now it's the gas thing; before that it
was the SALT agreement; before that it was the Israel thing.
And they got people so excited half a£ them don't know what
the heck's going an anyway. Let's face it - E mean this oil
situation learned men told you back in '72 that you had to
make preparations for it. And everybody sits there and lets
you go, and then all of a sudden why, he's losing his
prestige and a11 this and that now - so, what's he do . . .
Oh, the oil thing's a big crisis- I'm going to do this.
Fires half his Cabinet. Why fight the Cabinet? He's the
leader. And it's been that same way every election.
Coolidge came in under an awful mess - one of the worst
messes there was. Kept his mouth shut and straightem< the
country out. VJhen A1 Smith run against Hoover, Hoover won.
Hoover was a Independent and he was over on the other side

LEI.JIS; 099 I1 : 1 : 49
when World War I broke and he helped to get all the Ameri-
cans, different people from that side over and organize the
food stock. Right after he was elected all them countries
over there owed this government money for the war. And the
government had guaranteed the money to the manufacturers . . .
you let them have credit, we guarantee it. And them people
de~lared a moratorium and refused to pay it back; that's why
you had the Depression.
But then Roosevelt runs - the gamblers and one thing and
another put Roosevelt up to run . . . and Roosevelt run, which
he had a right to do. That's his business, When a guy
tried to shoot him down in Florida, butthey killed the
Chicago mayor. Roosevelt come back and none of the guys
over attempt to do; they just made you turn all
the gold money you had, unless it was heirlooms and made it
illegal up to just two years ago. Under Republicans they
brought back - you couldn't even buy, you
might want ta call it a souvenir - called proof money. In
other words, when you buy proof money made by England or
anywheres else you pay an awEul premium on it. I don't
mean . . . and it's the sane way in this country. We could
buy their silver coins, but we couldn't buy their gold
coins, and you couldn't go out of the country where they
used gold money, like Mexico and those places, and get gold
money and bring it back to this cauntry. In fact, it was
illegal for you to have it. And those kinds of things -
you always got issues. I mean,my argument, tlr. Roosevelt.

LEWIS;O99 II:1:50
Mr. Roosevelt done a lot of ham to this country that we'll
never recover from. And this man here we got now, no dis-
respect to him, hers a fine gentleman he's entitled to his ideas,
but he's made enemies all over the world. We got thrawed out of
everyplace, the Phillfpines, we set them up as a democracy
- now it's dictatorship. They told us we could get our
troops out of there, we can use that airfield. But our
troops have got to leave and we paying them twenty million
dollars a year rent for that airfield. Same way in Panama.
Harvey: Let's get it back to Hampden. I wonder if that
tension with the Catholics you were describing up until
World War I . . .
Lewis: Who was?
Harvey: You were saying . . .
Lewis: Well, the tension was between the people. I mean,
in other words, in them days the religious issues were fired
on. Those days people went to church. In other words,
these churches around here in them days had people - they
weren't empty like they are now. They all had big congregat-
ions. And you went to church children from the children up.
You take in them days it wasn" a question of whether you
were going to Sunday School ar not. If you was too sick to
go to Sunday School, you were too sick to go out. The kids
knew that. You went to Sunday School. f went to Sunday
School - started out in little teeny chairs and because
everybody was the same way. Everybody went to church.
Harvey: How did the tension with the Catholics come up ill
politf cs?

LEWIS #099 2:1:51
liewis: Just that they didn't - just as I say, now over in
the tenth ward Sonny hahone and Curran
where there was a big Catholic settlement. See, that4 s
how part of Baltimore was. Was Catholic, and they all
stuck to ether down there. They tried to hire fellows out
here to try to get Democrat votes out here. Just like anybody,
they tried to get people to work in different neighborhoods
for them, but Sonny Mahone and them fellows, you got a jab in
the city - like in those days, was horse and wagon driving a
cart and stuff like that, you had to have their approval.
And . . .
Harvey: Well, did the Catholics in Hampden tend to be Demo-
crats?
Lewis: Mostly all, mostly all.
Harvey: HOW do you think the Republican power - say, up
until the First World War into the twenties, how did it
dissipate?
Lewis: Well, it went down for the simple reason that these
people coming up from the south were Protestants and all
were Democrat because they were southerners, You see, if
you go back and study history, England backed the South,
They had all them slaves, all of them. And that was it.
Of course, Maryland was a Catholic settlement to begin with.
But there were different sections; over in the old tenth
ward Protestants didn't go over in the old tenth ward over
around Greenmount Avenue down below North Avenue over there.
Hawes: But the Catholics here were Democrats and the

southerners were . . .
LEWISi099 XI: 1:52
Lewis: They were Democrats: they sympathisized with the
South and so on.
Hawes : The southerners were Protestants.
Lewis: They were Protestants, but they were Democrats.
A lot of these people come up here to work, but most of
them big land owners if you look down there you'd findthey were.
And same way with Southern Maryland. In other wards, Federal
Hill; the Federal troops fortified that, and that's why the
Baltimore Merchant was in trouble. They'd have the
city down. And the first bloodshed really shed in the Civil
War between troops was Massachusetts Regiment at Light and
Pratt Streets when the southern sympathizers here in Maryland
attacked them, they had to shoot at them. But those are the
things, but out here we never had anyone to speak of. You
had ward leaders . . . I'm just trying to think . . . got a
whole Democrat ward do me a favor in the late twenties.
I forget the name - Bob . . . lived over on University
Parkway. And I called him up -thg. do favors for Republicans
as well as you would the Democrats. You could go to a Demo-
crat with a favor; if he felt like doing it, he did it; if
he didn't he didn't want ta tell you no. In other words,
Cliff Case, he was Secretary to a Congressman. And he
couldn't do what I wanted; I wanted a letter. Frank Robey
at that time was clerk down here and I said, "Prankn. He
said no, he was in a different one, so I was sitting home
and I can't think of that fellow's name - Bob; I never met
him until later in the gear - X called him up and told him

LEWIS;099 II:1:53
what I wanted, told him who X was, told him I was Republican
and he was a Democrat. I said I need this letter and I'd
like to get it. He asked me to go to the union, I told all
the businessmen, Paul , Billy Burns, Charlie Benson,
Cavacos. He said that's enough; so he told me he
said give me a call tomorrow night. Next night he called me
he said it's in the mail for you - I'm sending you a letter,
a copy of the letter to send to the other party as a letter-
of introduction I told hrm,
I said anytime you got a candidate that"^ in trouble, I'm
as close as the telephone. He never did call me up to support
anybody.
But, I mean I never worried whether a man was Democratic
or Republican, never worried me. And my wife up until recent
years has always registered Democrat. My wife and I went in to
register together because we were about the same age. They
laughed like the dickens. . . Boy, ain't that a family, she's
Democrat and he's Republican, I said look, I never told my wife
how to vote; 1 always polls . I go, I know
the average person don't figure it but it costs you twenty,
twenty-five dollars a year tax to go to the polling places.
And it w ill figure twenty or twenty-five dollars before I 'm
going to exercise the right to let them count it. And
that' s the way people should feel.
Hawes:
Mr. Lewis, what about Frank Robey - when did he
start to be involved in politics?
Lewis: I imagine Frank started probably in the twenties -
a little after the early twenties, Because he worked in the

LEWIS; 099 I1 : 1 : 54
mill, then he come out and started in the co-op; he and
Martin and Heath. And at 28th and Huntington, and that
didn't work out. And Frank started the store up here.
Wasn't too long after that he got in politics,
Hawes : HOW did he get started? What did he do first?
Lewis: What do you mean - politics? Just in the neighbor-
hood; you know fellows meeting around the clubs, there was
different ones and they figured the folLawing he had, to
carry votes, and he did. And he had a minor j oh; I dan ' t
know just what it was. Then when he wrote to the Clerk of
the Court . . .
See, in the old days you done something like you try to
do now - they tried to keep those jobs in each district,
to keep everybody happy. Of course Frank had down there where
you get your marriage licenses and business permits ani3 all.
And I danCt know when Frank got in down there; I think
Frank got in there in the late twenties or early thirties
Clerk of the Court. And he wasn't a acllege boy.
See, wasn't: too many lawyers down there - w ell, there
wasn't many colleges. But you didn't need a college . . .
Today, the average guy that finished the eighth grade the
old days today. I mean, I hate to say
that; I don't mean to be nasty, but facts are facts and you
deal with it, you seen them - they can't add, they can't
read, they can't write. And I feel sorry for them - I
think it's terrible when a person can't count.
Hawes: Well, what kind of things did Robey do in ampd den?

LEWIS;099 XI:lz55
Lewis: Well, in the neighborhood, as far as political,
he got a lot of boys jobs in the city down there - in his
office and other jobs down there and different places.
Like all politicians - highway departments and things like
that, lot of that. and . . .
[END TAPE I1 SIDE I; BEGIN TAPE I1 SIDE 21
Lewis: . . .I get my job by being elected,
Hawes: What 1 wonder is: who supported Robey from Hampden?
Who were the people?
Lewis: Oh* all of us old-timers supported, but we never had
enough vote to carry the district for him.
Hawes : What about the businessmen?
Lewis: Businessmen all liked Frank. Businessmen only got
one vote; in fact today in the late years there's very
few businessmen live in Hampden. And one t ime every merchant
on 36th Street all lived in Hampden. Now you don't have
that.
Harvey: What effect do you think the m ills and Poole and
Runt - the other industries - have on politics around here?
Lewis: Well, that was never talked; you never heard people
in the m ills, the bosses or anything at all, talking politics.
mid the big bosses - see, old man Bowersox down here, he
was one a£ the overseers in the mill and he was Catholic.
He was Catholic, I just happened to think; he was one of the
only ones I remember was a boss.
HaWeS : That was Mt, Vernon.
Lewis: Well, Bowersox - no, he had Druid M i l l and Park M ill,
and he lived right there at Buena Vista Avenue. Big house

up on the . . .
LEWIS;099 II:2:56
See, all the big bosses had them big stone houses.
But politics was never talked in them places, just like the
bonze wasn't allowed out here - different things was taboo
out here. And, I mean, the Carroll place down there: their
estate down there - that was a beautiful place. But, of
course, the last Carroll that was living just wasn't all
there and down. Prank Robey's wife was a
Joeckal. They lived around here. Well, her brother still
lives down here. Frank come in from E llicott City, that's
where he come from originally. Ha worked in mills out in
Ellicott City, came here during World War I, the beginning
of it. And then he stayed here. There's a lot of them did.
Harvey: Rww about Jack Pollack - what effect did he have
on politics?
Lewis: Well, Jack Pollack come here f rom New York, Jack
Pollack beat a murder rap in New York and come here and
old Mrs. Bernschmidt fought him to a grand standstill,
Harvey: Who did?
Lewis: Mrs. Bernsehmidt - Pred ~ernschmidt" wife, the
beer man's wife. Of course, the beer man was dead before
World War went dry. George ~ernschmidt's beer GBS.
And she fought him to a standstill. And she told people
what was going to happen: she told them the truth. Today,
the gamblers have control of politics; no question about
it. They said Dewey ran in New York, and
Dewey was State's Attorney in New York, Came down here and

LEWIS;099 ZL:2:57
and firs. Bernschmidt - little old woman, dried up, she only
weighed about 75 pounds soaking wet, lived over on Univers-
ity Parkway - and she was down here building schools at
that time. And she would go around and climb ladders and
everything else see they were putting in stuff they were
supposed to. And, mister, when she went down to anywhere -
Annapolis, City Hall: the doors was thrwed wide open to her,
mister. Don't you think it wasn't. They all respected her
because she'd jump an them and . . . she had facts. She
had the kind of facts that we ought to have today.
In those days she had two people on committees for each
school. You seen something that went on in those schools
shouldn't be going on to, you could call up and tell her.
But you wrote it down, time and everything else; when she
took something up, she wrote it dawn. And she done a lot.
You see this school up here at Roland Park? She made them
tear the whole third floor off of it. She went to Europe
they put that third floor supposed to be three bricks, they
only put two - they offered to cut the price on it and every-
thing else. She said no way. That's the kind of fun [laughs]
don't matter if I see it. She come back quicker than
they thought she was.
Harvey: She wasn't from Hampden.
Lewis: No, she was from University Parkway, right when you
go up Keswick Road and go across - that house up on the side,
big house up these.
Harvey: Did she have an official function? Did she work

for the city, or what?
LEWIS:099 II:2:58
Lewis: Only watchdog - she wasn't elected to nothing, but
she had so much on them politicians that they all. were
scared to death cf her; they didn't want Marie on their back.
Harvey: When was she around, now - about what year?
Lewis: Oh, about - the first I knew anything of her was
around '24. 1 think she died; I don't know if she died after
World War I1 or not, You take that, you know Union Memorial
Hospital over there on the east end; that whole block there,
She built that in memory of her husband. Furnished it and
everything else, four stories high, That was the Bernschmidt's
section; you still got the plaque over in that old building.
: M r. Lewis, not exactly politics but maybe part of
politics . . .who were the people in Hampden the last fifty
years since the twenties stay?
Lewis: In these Last years Jack Pollack control this district.
He controlled it. Mike Triplett worked for him. And George
Bailey worked for Mike . . . or, Jack Pollack. W i l l i e
Curran, when Pollack comes down, Willie Curran (former Mayor)
he had Dr. Morrissey he was the coroner out here. The
Powers Boys drugstore. They were a11 Willie Curran's. Now
Willie Curran, he was a Catholic - staunch Catholic. So
was Dr. ~orrissey and Dr. Powers. And they were with
Willie Curran and Pollack come out and started to build up.
In the meantime Robey started to build up and then,
of course, Keller - Leonard Keller - was his lieutenant.
And Leonard Keller up until Robey died. You wanted anything

LEWIS; 099 11: 2: 59
from rank you were supposed to go to Leonard to get it from
him.
R ~ b y ?
: How did Dr. Morrissey and Dr. Powers fit in with
Lewis: Well, they were in with curran and Pollack, they said.
In the neighborhood Powers had the drugstore at Elm Avenue
where Murphy's is. And then they finally sold that property
and moved out to Chestnut Avenue. That's where they went and
went out of business. One of them died, the other one was
gist: down at the Penitentiary. Dr. Morrissey was about 3 drug-
houses below that alley on Roland Avenue below 37th Street,
3-store house. He was a coroner around here, the last
coxonex that is before they took all that down the morgue
downtown. And they . . .
Rawes: They sort of go out as Pollack came in?
Lewis: Then Pollack kept building up in the neighborhood and
through his club over there - Jack Pollack's Club - just
like the Stonewall Club put McGuirk in office. McGuirk's
a big leader in South Baltimore with that Stonewall Club.
Harvey: Did people in Hampden oppose Jack Pollack?
Lewis: Oh, a lot of people opposed him all over Baltimore
City, but he had too much money behind him.
In other words,
you take Jackson, you take D' AZesandro I the old
man). Of course, he didn't last too long in it . .
You see what they do, where they get their
business agenda - they helped elect these men. So you got
a bunch of dmp trucks and you want to hire them out to
the city, right?
The only way you can hire them out to

LEWIS #099 2:2:60
the city is buy your insurance through me. If you don't
have your insurance through me, you don't run a truck
there. And if you drop that insurance, you're out - I
don't mean to be nasty on such cold facts. That's what
they have rackets - they've always.had some way or other to
do it, Old days I don't know just how to do it, but in
late years it's been mostly through insurance on trucks and
stuff like that or your employees.
Harvey: Well, what was the relationship do you know of
Prank Robey to Jack Pollack?
Lewis: Just that they were in the same party. They were
opposite each other. Frank wasn't in with Robey at all.
Harvey: You mean Robey wasn't in with Pollack at all.
Lewis: That's sight. Robey had his watchers at the polls,
pollack had his, Had to run us around. when I first
went to the polls Jack Pollack sent men to every polling
places to help you get the polling machines and stuff set
up. And they all would come around with coffee. And then
Keller, he come around later on w ith coffee and sandwiches.
And it was a good thing; people don't realize it, but you
got to get up them days when it used to be 6 o'clock. That
meant you had to get there by 5 to get in there by 6 and
it takes you a good hour to get everything ready ta operate.
Hawes : Did Robey ever openly do anything to oppose
Pollack?
Lewis: Do what?
awes : Oppose Pollack?

LEWIS;099 II:2:61
Lewis: Well, they'd have their different candidates in the
primary - PoLlack might be supporting this one, Robey support-
ing that one. And then, f mean this was something w ith any-
one in politics . . . they all got their watchers out and
nobody knows how you!.re voting exactly, but they haw just
about. f used to didn't vote until about 4 o'clock in the
evening because I'd find out what the score was : they made
a deal they're going to put one candidate in front of another
one, so you vote that way, if they were good men, of course.
But it's still done today in the primaries. Cut them
the Last minute . . . 1'11 tell you - you don't think this
election with Hughes was done because sf popularity, I hope.
I hope you not that . . .the word come down we going to
knock him out and we're going to put Hughes in - it was all
done after, say, 11 or 12 o'clock. Nokdy had a chance. I
mean, just like voting . . . today you talk to a person
about cutting the ticket they don't even know what you're
talking about.
Do you know what cutting the ticket is? Do you know
how to cut a ticket? I mean, even when you went to vote, a
man says cut your ticket for my man . . , do you know what
he means? Well, I'll tell you what it means * . .There's
four people running, six people running for five offices.
Instead of voting for five, you vote for his candidate alone
and give him one vote over everybody. And today you don't
even hear it discussed. It's like today people are not
educated you do not need an education. They
cannot borrow money unless it's approved by the voters and

LEWIS:099 II:2:62
people won't vote against it, and they raise hell because
their taxes went up. And it's . . . one of the things that
I'm so opposed is these school loans. If they want to build
a school right now -I88 that will be on the ballot
by the lean, now by the time that school is built, half that
money's gone. And I say they shouldn' t be allowed to
borrow money for two years. In other words, you want to
build a school in '$1, we're going to buy it this year.
Harvey: In 1938 they had the celebration out here; the fifty-
yeas celebration. Was there any attempt at that t ime to
form a political organization?
Lewis: No . . . you see, back in the twenties after World
War I things started to happen. World War XI finished it off.
You had all these organizations - Junior Order of
Woman of the World, Red Men, Odd Fellows, and everybody
belonged to a lodge. That was the only activities the men
had at night, see. See, your prohibition was on - you could
go to a speakeasy, but you don't >now whethex that was going
to get raided ax not. Nobody wants to stay in a speakeasy.
And that's where politics was talked ever, and one thing
and another. You" 90 in them organizations and talk polities,
well, this man belong to organization and in those days all
them organizations had ; and everything else,
see. You take Junior Order of United American Mechanics
up to World War I had ta call them Junior Mechanics. They
used to train them with rifles and everything else; they
used to have two weeks down to Betterton same as the National

LEWfS;099 I1:2:63
Guard. And ever since I was a little fellow they always
marched up to graveyard with the Grand Anny Men right up
to the cemetery because this cemetery got lots of Grand
Army men up there; in fact, I'd say I guess there's five
or six hundred of them up there. In them days people . .
Harvey: Did lodges tend ta line up with one party or
another?
Lewis: Well, they . . . not necessarily. As n rule they
stuck together up here mostly they backed Republican cand-
idates. As I tell you, it was a Republican stronghold.
But there was Democrats in the organizations that didn't
say nothing, and a lot of times in those days people would
be petty. Keep you out of organizations.
Harvey: Do you think that the lodges sort of went downhill
in the twenties?
Lewis: The lodges was destroyed by the foreign element,
because the lodges were against immigration. After immigration
gow broke down tha-t: they can bring anybody in here they want
regardless whether we got people working or not, it lost
its principle and their activities, and young men don't qa
for it.
Hawes: When was that , . , when did that happen?
~ewis: Back in the t wenties, after World War X - they
brought lodges and they did everything they
could to keep them out. And then, of course, when RooseveLt
went in there in the thirties, why the barrier was down on
immigration. And just brought them in here. Just like now,

LEWIS;099 II:2:64
look how many they can bring in here . . . I'm not talking
about these boat people . . . they bring in here now, and
yet we got unemployment, Then they tell our American girls
not to have children and then them people come in here
breeding families. I'm not trying to be nasty, I mean . . .
Hawes: What about besides politicians, beyond politicians
. . .who were the people in Hampden over theyears who you
remember that people turned to for leadership. Not necess-
arily political leadership?
Lewis: Well, you take Benson out there, T.C. Davis, Coleman,
a11 those businessmen would help the people out.
talk to those people and they took care of their own.
Hawes: Did they have any organizations. Were they in any
organization in any way: did they help each other?
Lewis: Well, most of the businessmen out here helped each
ather with the property improvement and the property.. You
take Benson's was a big factor here. They one time named a whole
row of houses down there back of Buena Vista Avenue
it was called Benson Street. It was before my time, but by the
time they -it burned out. And then their store was down
there on 36th Street. And they come up and took that
property over from Hickory Avenue to Roland Avenue and up
Roland Avenue up above where That was all
there. And they donated the ground for Grace Church. Of
course, they sold the ground Xnothe and built that Knothe
building there. That was in 1928.
Hawes: Benson donated the ground for . . .

LEWIS;099 3I:2:65
Lewis: Grace Church, yes. To build it on . . . told you
the pxice, of course. There were pillars in Grace Church.
George Benson was Sunday School Superintendent for years.
Charlie, he was a bachelor; he never married.
It was all like people, see you'd have to know them -
the only time, even though you get mad at a family was
neglected by carelessnes of one of the parents - they always
seen that they had something to eat or a job or something
like that. Of course, Cavacos the same way. out. One
time today, there were two factions of Greeks in this
country, and Cavacos brought them together. He was a big
chu~ch leader: not only in Maryland, but all over the
country. And Mr. Gus liked me ever since X was a kid and
as I got older belonged to some organizations and traveled
around tagether and he was influenced by things that happened,
It was funny in 1939 my w ife took her kid brother
to Atlantic City over Labor Day. Got down there couldn't
get reservations, so coming back out Atlantic City and I
stopped at the little hotel, Greek people, and I asked them
if they had anything. They said no, and I said, do you have
any idea where I can go close up the road?
brother with us. He said, what part are you
from? I said Hampden. He said do you know Cavacos. I
said, I know M r. Gus xeal well: I said Mr. Gus so-and-so
and so-and-so. Wait a minute - went out and talked to his
wife and them people gave us their bed and put a curtain
up there and my brother-in-law so we could have privacy.

LE1?1S:099 11~2: 66
And they slept in the kitchen of the hotel. Him and his
wife slept in the kitchen. Of course, we had to eat there;
we went in all told when the holidays were over.
Hawes: Maybe you know something about I%e been told,
that when Theodore Cavacos bought what's the bbok store right
now on the corner of Roland and 36th.
Lewis: That's his brother.
: Right . . . that he had some problems - people
didn't like . . .
Lewis: Well, they pulled a deal over there. They built
that store out by the city line, and then they went into
court. Built it first and spent plenty of money and went
into court to tear it down. Used to be in the front of
the store before they tore it down
Hawes: But who fought him? Flho were the people who
fought him?
Lewis: He fought Roland Avenue, the property owners.
Everybody fought him, and of course, he got away with it.
And just Like I say when they left Greece, these Greeks
left Greece, they stole a lot of ornaments. I told you
this before, and the woman used to show up all around
Washington and nobody even know what it was - the people
couldn ' t understand why the police didn' t do some thing
about it. But they finally, after three or four years,
located them, it was in the cellar where Bansen got his
television shop. They dug them out of there, but Theodore
Cavacos he was crazy. In fact, he died in an insane asylum.

LEWIS;O99 lf:2:67
And, of course, Gus was the oldest and he was boss,
just like Tass is the boss now. Tass is the
head knocker and you'll find that Gus Cavacos done a lot
of good work out here, Weinstein done a lot of good work
out here. I know Weinstein used to come 0u.t here right
from World War I - and they were out there next to where
the bar is, Roaches, that's where they started out, and
Max, Morris' brother was a great big Xussian. They were
Russian Jews and about ten feet and about
that wide deliver around Re was a brutal
man. But they were all . . . myself, 1 say it's what you
are because you were born that way. Same way as people's
religion; as far as I was concerned the average person
is a Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah's Witness
because they were brought up that way.
Hawes: How did those kinds of leaders relate to Frank
Robey in politics and like that?
Lewis: Well, they knew him out here, he was out here, He
was a friendly man, Frank Robey was a friendly man; he wasn't
a dxinking man. Never give anybody any trouble; he worked
hard - everything he had he worked and made for himself.
Hawes: Did they support him, or , . .3
Lewis: They all supported, but people wouldn't vote for
him. I mean, he just never carried this district. The
people . . other words, some people come to you hungry for
something and you can' t give them and then you're
and then they get this and that one to get it. And I laugh

LEWLS;O99 I1:2:68
at them. A man can't do something for you, he can't do
nothing for you. He can, he does. After all, your boss
can only do so much for you. He can't d~ nothing else and
his boss or anybody else. Just like where I went to work
you realized your company didn't make money you didn't
have a job. Today you hear them all say oh, to hell with
the company. You hear them say this and that; if the
company isn't making money they're going to go broke, and
you're out of a job. Of course, you got unwtploymene and
all that, but that's running out on a lot of us.
Harvey: What kind of organizations were you in with Gus
Cavacos? I think earlier you said that you were in some
organizations w ith GUS Cavacos?
Lewis: I was in the Masonic Fraternity w ith him and a
couple branches of theirs. Gus was a Masan and then, of
course the ether organization, you had to be American born
to belong to them. Most 05 the people couldn't belong to
them. Only American born could belong to them, But that's
how I come around with Gus, silly Burns, a31
of us - we all went around together. They were older men
than I, but I enjoyed being with them.
Harvey: From the Masons? Was that Piekering Lodge?
~ewis: Pickering Lodge; Gus belonged to King David. Mast
of them around here belonged to Piekering Lodge because
~ickesing Lodge was founded in Mt. Washington and then moved
to Hampden. And a L ot of lodges - we built a big temple
downtown and used to m eet around. And then when they built

LEWIS:099 fI:2:2:69
the temple on Charles Street the lodges had to get down
Haaes: T heard that there was some reasons why Gus didn't
get into Pickering Lodge,
Lewis: He didn't get into Pickering Lodge because he was a
Greek. Xing David" haa a lot of Greeks in it. Just like
pretty well; today, it's different - they
had even Gentiles in there. temple was Jewish.
and many were German. Same way with - mostly
German descent. In other words, the object was you were
friends and you associated but you go in your lodge and
all. Just like I been over all the town and Pennsylvania
and all. Same way with Gus. But it was nothing in the rules,
it was just an unwritten rule that you went with your own.
Just like today; it amuses me with integration. Colored
people like to be among themselves; Jewish people like to
be among themselves - there was never no law on it.
Tommy DtALesandro don't have to live down Little
Italy. He can live anywhere he wants, but a lot of them
want to live there. Park Heights Avenue - when the Jews
lived down around L ittle Italy i n Old Town they went out
Park Heights Avenue. Nobpdy run them out there. But
down around Central Avenue, Baltimore Street where Little
Italy is now - that was Jewtown. You can read that in
the library; I mean they moved out Park Heights Avenue.
When they went out Park Heights Avenue nobody was bothering
them, but when you got up around the race track

LEWIS; 099 11: 2 :70
3 mean, and you find in many countries the same way. YOU
take if we went to a foreign country; when we yo wouldn't
we want to be around a bunch of Americans kalking English,
know what we're talking about? And that's all,
Harvey: Would you tell us a little bit more about the
Junior Order of Hechanies . . . you were in the Golden Rule
br aneh?
Lewis: Golden Rule Council, that's right.
Harvey; It got so big that they started another one, *he
Monumental?
Lewis: Monumental, that's right, Those days if you were
sick, they paid sick benefits, four dollars a week and then
you got three hundred dollars at death. You didn't, your
widow did. Sort of an insurance, and then they had a home
out there in Ohio you was eligible to go to. And of course,
if you was sick, come out and see you and if things
were going bad you needed a house and food or something like
that, that was all taken care of. In other words, that was
the way it was. That's why you didn't have all this welfare
and all this administration.
Harvey : How did it start; the Junior Order of ~echanics?
Lewis: 1 couldn't tell you; it was an old oxganization
started way back - I don" know how far, actually never said
in the history of it, But 1 do know it started back in the
early 1800's.
Harvey: You weren't involved in the beginning of the local
branch?

LEWISi099 I1 :2 :71
Lewis: No I didn't go in - 1 guess it was 1919 that I went
in. But then f was Counselor and then they elected me Chairman
of the Board of Trustees. Had a lot of money; there were a lot
of owned that building out there. They had stock in
the old Baltimore Trust Company. Fortunately, they got rid of
that before they went bankrupt, I saved $10,000 there [laughs].
But that was more or less an accident,
But those organizations and the people - see, the members
you didn- get paid for that. It was just like a f ellow said
termed the or races or anywhere - he don't get paid
far that. He don't even get any expenses, that is personal
expenses. Of course, any charity he gets reimbursed for
that. All them organizations, &ions Club - all them -
Optimists, they all do a certain amount of charity work.
Yau don't hear a lot about it, and that's the way it should
be. I think it was much bettex the way we took care of our
own then it is now, because there wasn't a whole lot of
recores or anything else.
I was in the organization not too long ago . . , well, we
always give a floral design. At times, my job take care of
floral designs. I had to know the family was up against it,
and I went to the woman and I asked her. I know things are right
rough for you; if you want, I'll give you a check instead of a
floral design. She said we can use that money a whole lot
better than we can use the floral. design. So 1'11 be honest
with you, I had that privilege. I added more
onto it and I give it to her. 3 had a monkey raised hell

LEWIS;099 II:2:72
because we didn't have a floral design, and he got up in the
meeting and questioned about the floral design. I said it
was all taken care of. I didn't see it. . .I said I didn't
care whether you seen it; I just told you it was all taken
care of. So, after the meeting was over 1 took him aside
and I said I want you to do me a favor. He said, what's that?
I said I want you to go down and see his wife and
ask her if the organization gave her anything for her husband.
After a few minutes he turned white, walked away. Later on
he come back to me and he says, I'm sorry I was so damned
dense. I mean, we were no organization to do that. We had
a guy that was sick, arm broke. I went up there to see him
how he was. Hell, they were ready to shut his . , ,
[END TAPE I1 SIDE 2; BEGIN TAPE III SIDE 11
Lewis: . . .they know you don't squander their money: I
mean if somebody really wanted to know what I done w ith it,
I would tell them, but 1 'rn not going to get up in front of
the meeting . . .
Harvey: OK, let me put an introduction on here again, Mr.
Lewis. This interview, this is Tape 11 of an interview with
Mr. Roy Lewis of Hampden. The interview was conducted at
the Hampden Woodberry Remington Community Center an July 29,
by Bill Harvey and Susie Hawes; Baltimore Neighborhood
Heritage Project.
Let me ask you this: how would you compare the old
lodges, the Mechanics, and all them to the
groups today, the new clubs like the Barn Burners and Pang-
ers, and so forth?

LEWIS; 099 III:1:73
Lewis: Oh, well the moral and religious issue involved;
I mean you have to have good character to get in any of those
organizations. If you was in trouble with -the law or some-
thing like that, forget it. You have to be of good character,
one thing and another; you take in those days even though
had a pool parlor out there where had that saloon
now; if you hang in there you couldn't get in any of those
organizations. Although he rented the pool room from the
Junior Orders - they owned that bui1ding.Y~~ were with better
people; now before my time, be£ ore come around, the
visited each other; they go across town and all that in those
days. And according to the records and the older men I talked
to, it was mostly a walking case . . . walk over these other
lodges and all and learn different things, and they'd have
a little xefxeshment. And sandwiches and coffee, stuff.
And then they'd come visit you; occasionally we had them out
here. The lodge would visit us and we always had refreshments.
Even though they were small, them buildings, they all
had a kitchen and all. That's why they could do those things.
Today, the national organizations are vanishing, except for
the Lions and Optimists and different ones. And most of those
are where only two men in the same business can belong. And
the Optimists, two jewelers, two grocery men, two undertakers,
two lawyers, two doctors, two general merchandisers, The
same way goes for those other clubs. So, they're really
youx business leaders, and most of them work in the community;
most of them have a pet project. The Lions it's the Eye Bank,
the Optimists it's the Boys, and of course today I'd say

LEWIS #099 3:1:74
that they also take in the girls. But that is a point of
it wa& helping the children out to go along. In other words,
we sponsored baseball games and basketball games, But some
of the children can't get equipment, so you don't embarrass a
child if he's not in position to get it: we always arranged
some kind of a deal that he won the equipment he needed, him-
self. Things that you do - and make them feel good. A child
gets out and learns- Now, most parents are busy making money
for their children and they don't really enjoy their children,
and when they come out with the men it gives them a chance to
see what they can do when they go out, I've had children
setting next to me didn't know they how to . . . at the
dinner - and I supervised and look after them, and I didn't
have no trouble with them. Later on, 3 met them different
places out and they always came around me. But the parents
give them money and all that, a lot of them. But they just
don't have the the to take care 05 them or take them any-
where.
Harvey: Is it accurate to say then that the new clubs are
more social clubs, wheras the old lodges dealt more with
moral and political things, and that there were more rigid
requirements for getting in?
Lewis: That's right.
Harvey: What kind of requirements did they have fox getting
in to, say, the Junior Order of Mechankcs?
Lewis: Well, those days you had to be clean character. You
couldn't have no police record and you had to be a church-
going person. And then, even then, something that maybe a

LEWIS: 099 111:1:75
lot of people didn't know - we could blackball them, And it
wasn't three blackballs . . . one blackball. And they blackball
you and that's all there was. And nobody knew why you were
blackballed or anything else, you were just blackballed, that's
all.And you seen things happen surprise you: 1 seen things happen.
Harvey: Did y ~ have u to be Protestant to be in the Mechanics?
~ewis: Most of them, yes. Knights of Columbus was the Cath-
olics, see. It wasn't so much them organizations wouldn't
take Catholics - Catholics wasn't allowed to join then.
Their own faith wouldn't allow them to join.
I mean, you hear a lot of this story about Catholic this
can't do this; Catholics can do
it but the faith don't believe in it and they don't do it.
Harvey: You said a f ew times that
the lodges worked against immigration, What kinds of things
did they do? What did they do?
Lewis: The Congressmen and senators. They spent money in
political campaigns and stuff like that for congressmen and
senators to keep them from coming in here. And there was
always a certain amount. But that's how our country become
over-populated. Now they're bringing them in. You figures
a thousand of these coming in and children and all.
Harvey: Were there other political issues that those lodges
addressed themselves to? Let's say World War I.
Lewis: Well, they were all against that. Wilson, right be-
fore he was . . . w ell, during the election absolutely it
wasn't going ko war; no, sir, peace - it was absolutely for

LEWIS; 099 1x1 :I r76
peace, and even in the inaugural address on March 4 - No,
sir: it wasn't going to war. And yet, by April 18 they
were in the war.
Harvey: Did the Junior Order of Mechanics oppose entry in-
to the war?
Lewis: Sure, all of them opposed entry into the war - it's
a terrible thing. Why should we get involved in the European
war? We had nothing at stake; that was the Europeans fight-
ing each other. It's true, this country here mast of us
were English speaking people, but there's no reason in the
world that we should lose our . . . our cream of our
crop. Don't forget - your Army wasn't drafted or enlisted
of your men. And you figure you got the cream of your crop
killed in World War T and cone back and those we lost a lot
of the cream of the crop in '41 to '45 - men we had killed
one and another. And then we come back in V iet Name
Today, you could hardly . . . you could hardly get an
Army together to fight.
Harvey: Was the Mechanics a secret organization?
Lewis: We'd call it secret in the fact that they didn't tell
You all the business. You took an oath of
allegiance to them, the same as you'd go into the court and
swear the truth and the whole truth. The same as any organi-
zation, but as far as being secret, or anything subversive
or against the government or anything like thnt,patriotic
organization . . . in other wards, one thing that any organi-
zation you pledge allegiance to the government when you join.

Harvey: When was the decline of the Mechanics?
Lewis: Oh, them organizations started to decline in the
twenties after World War I and the Depression. They declined,
and of course the automobiles come along, radios come along,
stuff like that - just like moving pictures. Movies was
everything. Moviesstartedhereon Street
Avenue then they came out on 36th Street
and you had the - next to where
the Junior Order these where the building there, why
you had the Across the street. Then Mr. Hicks,
he was the tinsmith and he started movie there
we had those two movies.
Today, you've seen whathappenedto movies. They've
outlived their usefulness.
Harvey: Are you saying that the orders declined partly
because there were other things to do in the evening?
Lewis: That's right - those days people . * . in other words,
now, I don't know - you people are young. And I don' t
get around much with young people, either. But in our day
we had pools; we had watermelon parties. And then we
had surprise parties - everybody brought a package. md we
had to make our own fun, and we had a good time. You talk
to people and say
some of them would laak at you.
And yet it was a lot of fun; nobody got messed up. Young
people had a good time; same way at watermelon parties.
You didn't hear a lot about washing faces, but I went to a
lot of watermeLon parties and there wasn't no washing faces
because you just didn't do that to your girlfriend. We were

LEWISt099 II1:1:78
all little kids, it's true - 12, 13, 14 years old, but you
respected the girls and they respected you. Or you might
squirt a little seed at somebody, something like that, and
we had a way of having fun, but we . . . I've heard people
say about how they washed everybody's face and all this and
that, but f never seen any of
that. But that was the story - it was the same way today.
Today we buy crabs . . . in those days you went down and
got crabs; I mean in latex years when I got so I didn't have
time to crab, I used to go down the maxket there and f always
bought 60 - that's 5 dozen to a bushel. And they were nice
size erabs. And you always got a couple extra and they m ight
have some dead ones in there. Then you'd steam them and
crowd come around and you sit down and eat crabs.
You'd have a little beer w ith it, but f mean, it wasn't no
booze party or anything; you come in and drink because a sweet
drink don't go good with crabs. Of course, I can eat crabs
with anything most anybody else, but it tastes better with a
glass of beer. ~ut, they were things you figured out.
Now we used to go down to Fort Smallwood when the old. . .
and we used to take a big iron pot with us and vinegar and
mustard and everything and our bathing suits and we would
buy old meat and would make a trout line, make it 50 feet
long and pole and hang a bushel basket on it. And a crab
got on it and we'd swim around and we'd pull on the line and
we'd get him in the bushel basket and the first thing you
know, we'd get nothing you could get out and put them in a

LEWIS;099 III:1:79
bag and when we had enough we'd go out and
along the beach and go over build a fire and steam them
there, eat them. When we got done eating them we always
got a shovel along, dig a hole in the sand, bury the crab
shells so there wouldn't be no odor. .Fort Armistead.
But today, you know, if I say let's go to Gettysburg, you
jump in the car and back before . . . When we went to Gettys-
burg you got up there took a lunch. Left here 8 o'clock and
took a lunch, got up to Gettysburg and done a little bit of
that, eat your lunch, it was time to come back. You didn't
have roads like you have now; you had in the roads,
you had to go slow because you went to Gettysburg
you just had to miss one of them and boy, blew your
muffler. Those are the kinds of things that you did to pass
the time away and, as I say, most everybody was church-going
. . . don't forget, you had Sunday service pretty much all
day. You had Sunday School, church, and then the young
people in the afternoon. Then the night church
services. And then you had choir rehearsals, you had Wednes-
day night church services and that was it. And wintertime
there wasn't too much
nobody could afford to heat a11 their homes. In the twenties,
we did start When I was a boy every-
body lived in the kitchen. But, don't kid yourself; the rest
of the house was cold and most of them had heat in them, but
people couldn ' t afford to buy the stuff . Beat the house

LEWISr099 111:l:BO
around Christmas time. Somebody died, because In them days
you didn't lay you out in the funeral parlor, laid you out
at home.
Harvey: OK, let me just ask you a few questions for the last
tape and maybe we can wrap It up - just a few things that
hit me funny when I listened it.
Why do you think so many people from Bampden worked for
the Transit Company?
Lewis: Well, one thing I'd put it this way: They had a
terminal out here in Roland Park. They also, up on Falls
Road there right by CockeysvilLe. Of course they only used
that for storage most in my day and they had the 25 line.
And then they had Oak Street, big base there. And
~ ' say d one time most everybody out here worked for the rail-
road, Mt. Vernon yards down there was the biggest railroad
yards Pennsy had around there before moved to
Atld there was no telephones and you had to live close to it
so the caller could go out. And the telephones got popular,
the railroaders spread out.
Harvey: Am I. riqht to think that, though, that a lot of
people in this area did work for the transit company?
Lewis: You had a lot of people work here for the transit
company, but at one time it was a toss-up whether the young
men worked - the railroad because
the railroad didn't have ladies. The railroads or the mills
. . . you made bigger money with the railroads and m0s.t: of
them went to the railroads. ~ike my grandfather and them

LEWI5;099 III:I:81
they worked in the mills. But my father he worked in the
railroad. His cousins and all most of them went to work for
the railroad because it was right down here in Mt . Vernon and
used to go across the street down into there and then in
about 1906 they moved in over Orangeville in East Baltimore.
That's why most men worked in the transit - it paid more
money than the mills did, and it was outside work and it
was cleaner and in war time they needed help because a lot
of mechanics and a11 could make more in the shipyard.
You was supposed to be 21; I bought my first pair of long
pants - told the guy I'd buy the pants from him if he'd
let me put them on there. And he did, and I went up and
Dick Russell said to me,"How old are you?" And I said while
1 was lying, might as well say a good one - I said 25. And
he said where was I born and I told h im and I got the job.
And I was just 17. But they paid good money. Today you
wouldn't call it good money . . . 45 dollars a week, 7 days,
too *
Harvey: When we talked before, you told me about some
strike breakers that they brought in who were foreigners.
You said later that there were the workers came in from aown
South . . . the area of Culpepper County, Virginia.
Lewis : No, no they came up here to wbrk. A lot of the young
fellows went in the army and the shipyards here just like
World War If had thousands of people come into Baltimore
because of all this stuff. See, that's when HoSabird came
into being during World War I. So did Edgewood. And they
brought them in, No, they weren't strikebreakers.

LEWIS;Q99 111:1:82
Harvey: Ok, who was your uncle who was a boss in the
Rope Room, Lampwick Room?
Lewis: That was my great uncle, Jess Lewis. Worked in
the mill for years and then Crown, Cork and Seal got h im to
go down there; didn't have much a£ an education, but he
could design a tuff. He had charge of the rope room,
lampwick, mailbag.
Harvey: And you told me the man who ran the saloon at
Lafayette and Falls Road . . . what was his name?
Lewis: Stocksdale run the saloon before Prohibition. That
was another, . .they all from out of town - they all
come from out of town with their Load, stop there and get a
beer and maybe hit the free lunch counter. Because all
saloons had free lunch counters in those days, but see when
we used to come up when we come up we went
had to came up Calvert Street. Then they built ,the Falls-
way. Fallsway over from Milford Avenue on down to Pratt
Street, the other side 05 Pratt Street. It's open from
Lombard Street now. Then we used to come up, come up Falls-
way and come around and up and always stopped in there.
And that was one of the stops. Of course, today all that
stuff's gone; Fallsway is about ready to go, you might as
well say. But see, the Jones Falls was clean for years.
Down there in Clipper Road, where they used to have the
filtration plant. Clipper M i l l and Mt. Vernon had theirs.
All them places, they had what you call cesspool almost
now, small filtration.

LEWIS;O99 III:1:83
But, Mom and Pop Railroad was down there and that was
all ~talians lived on Maryland Avenue down about, ah I guess
where that alley comes through there now from Maryland
Avenue above Lakewood Avenue. Houses there, all tole down.
Harvey: Do you remember the flu epidemic, M r , Lewis?
Anybody in your family catch it?
Lewis: No, our family was pretty lucky; a lot of them died
and the undertaker over there . . , of course them days you
used rock boxes before you put the caskets in. And of
course they used to put them together, the undertaker. But
they were dying: so fast they were sending them out: knocked
down - they used to pay us boys to put them together over
on his sidewalk. And then he'd take his horses and haul
them up to the graveyard. Of course, them days most all
of them was buried in St. Mary's in this neighborhood.
And when you were buried out in the other places you had to
take the rock boxes out there. ~ u we t all went around
there and nailed them together and we all nail them together.
Of course, they were put in the caskets, used to
have his horses in back of us, carriages back there, hearse
and all. This boy's father, older one. Of course, my grand-
father - 1 never knew him. I remember them talking about the
old gentleman's place down there, but he had the place down
there but people that lived in it before he moved into it,
Because they had moved out to Clipper before I was born,
went over on Chestnut Avenue. Old Man lived in one
end of the house, and lived up there for years,
but they lived up this end. Which you all pointed aut kids

LEWIS; 099 119: :1: 84
in them days talked about ghosts and all that kind of
stuff ; den' t go past there, ghosts come out of there [laughs] .
And used to tell ghost stories, scared to go home [laughs].
Those were the good days, and 1 say we had our fun and, of
course as I say in those days when it got dark you was home.
You wasn't out, and I say then today f think children ought
to be in at night; I don't think they ought to be out. Of
course now, if you go somewhere, alright. I think they mak-
ing childxen old too quick. Graduation exercises in public
schools I feel they wait later on 1 think later on they be
by theixself and go out and worry. But I find that today
in the neighborhood you still got men that does stuff in
the neighborhood and not political bosses or one thing ar
another. And you dan't hear about it. And I think it's
mighty nice.
Harvey: . . . say that again . . .
Lewis : below old Cedar Avenue Bridge on Falls
Road. That's why the second dam's down there - used to run
water in it. Take the roads and there.
Where that Falls Road runs through where Potts and Callahan
that's where the ald City Lee company was . . .
the Old City Ice Company.
Harvey: When did McMannis close up shop?
Lewis: 1 guess McMannis closed up 3 would say just about
World War I or right after that. They stood these for a long
while, but see, there was nobody but farms around here and
nobody didn't haul it in to them anymore, to grind it and all.
See, at one time there was quite a few farms around here;

LEWIS: 099 fII:1:85
now it was before my . . . the last £am. that I knowed that
operated was Roach's, where Maryland Casualty is, and I
nevex can remember the man's name up here on Falls Road.
The farm house is still standing, one of them. But where
Medfield and all built up there. But we boys used to go
swimming at the trestle and we'd come up there sometimes,
steal roasting ears out of there and take them down, build a
fire down in the old meadow there. And he'd run us, of
course, if ha seen us. Same way with and sickle pears and
stuff - used to go steal sickle pears and he run us if he
seen us, but he never shot any of us at all. We steal apples
out of Poole. Of course, with Poole more than anything
else had a lot of apple trees. The boys go in these
and get green apples, afraid make them sick. But the police
never could catch them. Just as you about
7 foot with fences. Just about the time you went to jump
over the fence, that piece of leather the police had around
their belly and they were mounted police. He could always
catch you - one or two raps with that, and you went over
the fence. You cleared the top of the fence when you was
up on that rail, but he never could catch you. Be didn't
want to catch you, anyway - the old Officers Dunn, old man
Boon@ . . . And that was what boys done those days. That was
the most mischevious thing. I mean, if you broke a window,
you went home and told about it. If you didn't, somebody
else told on you anyway. You paid for it. Boys had stone
battle - weren't any angels.

LEWIS; 099 I31:1:86
The girls wasn't angels either. They fought too; about
as human as they are today. Of course, wasn't as dignified
[laughs].
Harvey: Thank you . . .