Minutes of Evidence p.1401-1509 - Parliament of Victoria

1401
47±25. How many pounds do they weigh ?-They would weigh between eleven and twelve ponnds. CJJarlosFmutun,
':rh e l l uty upon sue l 1 a mgar . won ll c range up t o "'-). 1 ~s. upon th e 1mport • pnce • o f :.os. ~- ; natura Jl y sue l 1 11n artw . l e 26tn COllimued Aprl!!S83.
is entirely shut out, r admit.
47426. By llfr. Zox.-How many pounds woultl that weigh ?-Eleven or twelve. At the average
price of cigars such as the public would buy, say at 3d. each, importell cigms; such a cigar woulll cost to bout
75s. laid down.
47427. By tl1e Chairman.-How much would 1,000 of those weigh ?-About the same as the others.
This would give you an idea of the proportion of duty upon the ordinary value.
47±28. What do you suggest in relation to this article ?-I only suggest to reduce the duty from 6s.
to 5s.
47429. Leaving everything else as it is ?-Yes, assuming that my suggestion is received to reduce
the lluty to sixpence upon the leaf instead of a shilling to manufacturers, and leave everything as it is. But
another view that struek me may be very useful to the Commission to consider. That is the American
svstem.
• 47430. What is that ?-The Ameriean system does not pay by weight. The American system pays
by the hundred or by the thousand. Each box has the revenue stamp right round it. If it is a fifty box,
which is naturally half the amount of a hundred, and this revenue stamp is obliteratetl either upon the
article going iu.to home cousttmption or being exported, the machinery of adopting it out here may he
rather ditfieult; but I believe in the States it is working very plettsantly.
47±31. Where clo you see any advantage in that duty upon the number insteacl of by weight ?-The
merchant may import the ordinary eigar weighing thirteen pounds per thousand. Another cigm· of the
same quality only weighs eleven pounds per thousand. Both are equally marketable, and he is handicapped
with the extra duty upon the one as against the other, while in ATIJerica paying by the thousand and the
hundred this anomaly falls away.
47432. Does it?-Yes .
. 47±33. How does the question of quality and price coine in in connection with the number. If he
pays so much a thousand he pays upon a thousand of poor ones just the same as upon a thousand good
ones ?-I speak. of the market at the present.
47±3±. You tell me that the bad ones and the good ones pay about the same?-You can onler cigars
any weight.
47435. That is why I asked you just now. You told me a thousand of those big cigarl:l at 25s. a
thousand yvas eleven or twelve pounds. When you come to the better class of cigars worth 75s. a thousand
I asked what would be weight ancl you said just about the same as the others?-Yes, the weight of a
marketable article ranges between eleven and twelve ponnds a thousand; but allowing such a cigar to come
in and to weigh thirteen pounds a thousaml it is not worth any more upon the market because it pays
more.
47,:1:36. I fail to see what advantage you get by changing the duty from number to weight so far as
getting at the different qualities is concerned ?-I do not say you secure a better quality. It makes no
difference upon the quality at all, but it gives a uniform tax upon cigars so much per hnndrell.
47437. Is there anything else you wish to propose ?-I nncler;;tand the Commission to-day is only
considering tobacco and cigars.
117438. Yes ?-Tobacconists are left out. 'Were they on, I would take the liberty to mention
some of them.
47439. We are simply upon the one thing to-day ?-That is all.
47440. By Mr. Zox.-I fail to make out any reason that you have given to the Chairman, that I
can see is a feasible one for the alteration of the duty being paid upon so much per pound, or upon the way
you suggest. You have not made it at all elear to my mind; can you give any other ex:phmation ?-No, I
cannot give any other. I know it works very nicely. '
47441. What proof could we have that certain cigars having paid so much duty, the mome.nt they
got into the retail man's store, he did not change them from one box to another?...:... You cannot put a big cignr
into a little box.
4744:2. Why not?-Unless you make the box 1«rger.
474±3. Excuse me-why cannot you put a large cigar into lt small box if you had 1,000 cigars,
whatever they weigh ?-Of course such a thing could be clone. .
4744:4. W oulcl that not open the door to fraud ?·-This is to prevent it. The American system would
rather prevent it than open it, because the domestic-made cigar would have a different revenue stamp from
the imported one.
±7 445. Your suggestion in reference to the alteration in the Tariff to a shilling a thousand, what
effect do you think that would have to benefit us in any way ?-To benefit whom?
47446. To benefit the colony or the eolouin.l manufacturer?--The smoker would have to pay less
for his tobacco, allll small traders would have to disburse less reacly money for duties.
474±7. \Vould it not be beneficial to exclude the 25s. a thousand eigars altogether from the colonv,
and secure the manufacture of a colonial article that would benefit the smoker ?-To the revenue-No. •
47 448. Do not you think if you paicl a lower price for a· lower article and a higher duty for a better
article, would it not be more beneficial in the long run ?-Such a thing could be done to arrange a ::;lidlng
scale of cluties upon the value of cigars, and it would be a most judicious step.
47449. What is the highest price cigars you would import into the colony ?-In Loml or duty
paid?
47450. In bond ?-We have imported them as high as £50 a thousand.
47451. What did they weigh ?-They weighed a little heavy. They weighed sixteen pounds a
thonsand. That was £± 16s. a thousand dutv- .
474fi2. What is the lowest price cigars· you import ?-We import them as low as 25s. a thousand.
47453. What duty do they ptty ?-From 66s. to 7:2s.
47454. Then the cigars imported into this colony by you at £50 a thousand pay to the revenue
£± 16s. a thousanll, aml the cigars importecl for 25s. a thousand pay to the revenue £3 l2s. a thousaml.
Do yoa look upon that as an anomaly ?-I do.
TARIFF. 8:r

47455. Have you any suggestions to make for the modification of the Tariff in that respect ?-I
261 ~a:;:~~;f'fss 3 • cannot make anv that can be carried out practically.
47456. Can you make any suggestions to the Commission by which yon think people should be able
ultimntely to export tobacco from this colony other than you have made ?-No, I cannot make such a
suggestion.
47457. Have we ever grown, to your knowledg·e, more tobacco in this colony than what could be
used for colonial consumption ?-I believe one year showed a slight excess and the next year immediately
swallowed it up.
47458. To what extent was the excess ?-I am not certain. It was a few years ago. There was
one very heavy crop ; but, in my experience, the production of our colonial-grown tobacco is not in excess
of the demaml of the various factories.
47459. Since we have grown tobacco in this colony, can you give the Commission any idea as to
the fallin" off in the American-grown tobacco imported as far as consumption is concerned ?-I had the
statistics together, but I cannot find them. There has been a terrific falling off in the imported manufac·
ture since we commenced manufacturing.
47±60. Cannot you give the Commission some idea ?-No. I had all the papers together-every
newspaper-but I cannot Jay my hand upon them.
47461. Fifty per cent. ?-Quite, aml more than thnt.
47462. Seventy-five per cent. ?-I cannot say.
47463. You are certnin it is more thnn fifty ?-Yes, I am certain it is more than fifty.
4746±. Now, as far as colonial tobacco is concerned, are you a very large holder of it ?-Not such a
large holder, ai'l we traffic in the article. We are factors.
47405. Can you tell the Commission how much your trade has fallen off as far as American tobacco.
is concerned and colonial-grown tobacco ?-Our trade has not fallen off. We rose wit.h it. We were only
a small firm when first tobacco was manufactured. Our turnover was less then than it is now right through.
47466. Do you agree with the evidence given yesterday by Mr. Lecldin when he said yonr firm
woulcl have no objection to have all the colonial-grown tobacco marked in such a way that the general
public coulll know what they were buying ?-I think it would be quite proper. And moat of the American
manufacturers are alrendy putting fi distinguishing brand upon their tobaccoes so that their tobaccoes are
known one from the other and, consequently, from the colonial.
47407. Is that upon the boxes and upon the plug?-In the American tobaccoes it is upon the plugs,
and also the people in the trade can tell by the very nature of the box-whether the public can.tell I do
not know. They never see the box.
47468. Is the colonial-made tobacco purely and simply colonial-grown tobacco, or is it American
leaf ?-You can make it from colonial leaf alone, or you can mix it, or make it from American leaf only.
47469. What is generally clone ?-The majority is colonial tobacco-some proportions are mixed
and other grades are made entirely from the imported leaf.
The witness 1citkdrew.
CharlesFranktln,
W. w. Couobe,
26th Aprll1883,
1402
W.illiam Wilhnot Couche sworn and examined.
47470. By the Clwirman.-You fire [I partner in the firm of Couche, Calder, and Company ?-Yes.
47·:171. Are you an importer of tobacco and cigfirs ?-TobfiCcO only.
47472. You have heanl part of the eYidence of the previous witness?-Yes.
47±73. Do you agree with that evidence, as far as you have heard it ?-Yes, in the main I do.
47474. Are you of opinion that those alterationB in the Tariff of Gel. a pound in the various grades
would be beneficial to your business ?-I do not know that it would make very much difference to
om business, unless it increased the consumption. Of course any reduction of the price of imported
manufactured tobacco would be to our advantage. It might reduce the consumption of colonial, but I do
not know that it would.
J7475. Have you any suggestions to offer, yourself, in relation to the Tariff beyond what Mr.
Kronheimer's representative has stated ?-.No, the consumption of imported manufactured tobacco is about
one-third of what it was fourteen years ago.
47476. That has lleen more than supplied by the colonial manufacture, has it not?-Yes ; on the
other hfind, a larger amount has been imported of leaf-umnanufactureclleaf.
47477. And that with the colonial-grown leaf has more than made up the deficiency in the imported
tobficco ?-The colonial manufactured has driven all the lower qualities of mmmfactmecl tobacco that
formerly came from the States ont of the market. It could not compete.
47478. Is the price of tobficco much different to-day from what it was ten years ago ?-I do not
think it is.
47479. Is the little difference that there is in it higher or lower?-We sell all imported tobaccoes in
bond.
47 480. Taking the price in bond, is the price in bond to-dfiy of imported tobacco higher or lower
than it was, say ten years ago ?-It is a very difficult question to answer without reference, but my opinion
is that momatic tobaccoes, fine aromatic tollaccoes, are rather higher, ancl that black tobaccoes, what we call
Cavemlish, are rather low·er.
47481. Has there been any rise in price in the American market of the oue kind ?-The American
market fluctnates with the crop. Last year it was very high on account of a short crop.
47482. Is the reduction in the Cavendish that you speak of occasioned by competition with the local
article ?-Undoubtedly; there is no doubt a great deal of colonifil manufactured tobficco is sold as
imported. .
47483. By whom is it so sold, do you know ?-By the retfiilers, I believe. On all the tobaccoes that
come to us, nearly, they put what Mr. Franklin described as tags. Recently I· got down from the country
two parcels of tags-[producing the same and handing them to tile Chairman.J-Those aTe the brands .that
we import from America find are very favorite brands. Of comse those brands fire not printed for nothing,
and so far as I can make out they are put upon colonial-made tobaccoes and· palmed off upon the public as
imported.

1403
4748±. You say you received those parcels from the country ?-Yes. I am now endeavourin()> to
trace out their origin, and if I crm secure the evidence, since onr brands are recristered in this colony, we slmll
take legal proceedings; .for there is a direct fraud.
"'
47485. You are under the impression that those have come from America ?-No, they are made
here for the purpose of putting on.
47i8G. In imitation of the American tags that is what we call Cavendish that you have
, in your hand.
· 47487. You import tobacco that lias this brand upon it, you say ?-Yes.
47488. Have you got a sample of that with you ?-I have not, I forgot to put it up. We call it
Golden Eagle.
47489. Could you supply the Commission with a sample ?-I could.
47490. Can yon send a messenger and get a sample of this; there are two kinds here, Go !den Eagle
and Victory ?-The VictoJ'Y is not an exact imitation.
47491. You say the Victory label is not an exact imitation of yours ?-No, it is a different col or. I
put a Victory before you und an Aromutic ; here is the original Golden Eagle, and here is the imitation­
[handin,q in papers.]-No one but m1 expert could tell the difference.
47492. You are under the impressir.n that those are used for the purpose of putting on inferior
brands of tobacco, either inferior imported brands or colonial-made brands ?-Quite so.
47493. Must be used for either purpose?-Mnst be used foreither purpose; but most of the imported
manufactured tobaccoes have tags upon them to begin with, consequently that coulll not so readily apply
to them.
47494. It is quite easy to take off the tags and put others on ?-Not so easy; it would be a very
laborious thing, and there would not be the same object in it..
47495. Unless they were a poor quality imported, and they wished to palm them off as bett.er ?­
Comparatively little inferior tobacco is imported now.
47496. The cqlonial manufacture has driven it out?-Yes, and there is a higher duty.
47497. Have you anything further to suggest beyond what Mr. Kronheimer suggested ?-I have
not.
47498. Would you as an importer be satisfied with that alteration if adopted ?-Yes, I think it is
reasonable. I may say with regard to leaf we import leaf also. We import strips, and the question was
raised here yesterday by you as to whether an export trade could not be got, and the reason why better
leaf could not be produced here. I have been in Virginia and Kentucky where the bulk of tobacco is
produced, and though I am practically not acquainted with the manufacture o£ tobacco, I have spoken with
my constituents there, and they say the climate and soil have everything to do with the production of
tobacco ; that seed taken from Virginian tobacco of a fine quality such as is used for aromatics, 1md tuken
to Kentucky will pwduce a very different leaf, far more stalk ; and then the tobacco cmp is very much
influenced by the season. A tobacco crop wants a good deal of moisture, aud at a certain stage of its
growth frosts injure it very seriously, and the great drawback to the growth of tobacco in these colonies,
as far as my knowledge goes, is the uucertninly of the seasons. You have far more drought here than they
have in Virginia. A drought here, if continued, means a total failure of the crops, and upon that ground
I see no prospect, or very little, 6f colonial-grown tobacco ever arriving at the same perfection as the
Virginian article does.
47499. Unless it could be grown upon river flats, where it could be irrigated ?-No, upon river flats,
in this colony, you are liable to droughts, unless you can irrigate.
47500. By iflr. llfclntyre.-In regard to imported leaf, is the character of the leaf imported here as
good as the leaf you suw at home ?-Yes.
47501. In every respect ?-In every respect, it is a better average.
47502. Is the article manufactured from the leaf here as good after it is manufactured us the
imported article is ?-In manufacturing there is something besides the leaf. Every manufacturer in the
States has his own particular flavouring, that they put a certain amount of some fine sugar and liquorice,
what we call dressing. Everyone has his own secret, and there is something in the flavour of those that
every particular smoker may like. Take the Victory, that is one of the most favorite brands that come to
this market. No other Virginian manutiwturer has been able yet to hit upon the exact tlavonr though they
use the same leaf.
47503. Have you never come across any tobacco manufactured here yet that is a goatl as the
imported, or that made from the imported leaf ?-I have never seen any.
47504. Do you know the difference in the retail price ?-I do not know.
47505. What is the difference in the wholesale price between the article imported and the article
made here, supposed to he similar to the article imported ?-I cannot say. I never buy colonial
manufactured tobacco.
47506. You never buy any of the leaf tliat is only bought by manufacturers.
47507. You do not sell any of the colonial manufactured ?-No, not any.
47508. By lllr. Zox.-Do you consider that the inferiority is in consequence of the unsuitability of
our soil to grow tobacco equally good with American tobacco, or of the want of knowledge of the secret for
the component parts you put .into that, like liquorice, or other ingredients ?-I think that so far as we have
seen yet, colonial climate and soil will not grow as fine a tobucco, as fine a leaf as Virginia for instance.
4750H. B;IJ Mr .. 2lfuMo.-Do I understand that those labels are printed in the colony, and put upon
colonial-made tobacco, and sold as imported ?-Yes, undoubtedly.
47510. How long is it since you got information of those cases ?-I have known it to be done for
severnl years.
The difficulty is to find it out.
47511. How lonl! is it since you got those labels ?-I dare say. three months.
47512. And you have not been able yet to trace them ?-vVe have not.
47513. Is it done in the city or the country ?~I believe it ~s done everywhere where tobacco is
sold in quantity. I believe it is done in Melbourne.
47514. Then you think colonial tobacco should be branded in the same way as American tobacco?
-It would be a certain amount of protection to the consumer of tobacco.
47515. He would F;now eJ~:actly what he was purchasing ?-Yes,
W. W. Couchc,
cantinued,
26111 Aprill8S3.

\\... W, Conche,
cont-inued,
26th Aprill883,
1404
47510. You would make it compulsory that there Bhould be a label, so that the consumer might
know ?-It would be an advantage to the importer, aml a protection to him.
47517. A1:cl would it not also be an advantage to the consumer?-Decidedly.
47518. He would save his money, or he would know, at all events, whether he was getting colonial
or imported tobacco. I ~:uppose there is a great difference in the price ?-Of course there is, on account of
the high clnty upon the imported article.
1'/w ~vitness withd1·ew.
Alfl'ed Hart,
26th April !883.
Alfred Hart sworn and examined.
47519. By the Chairman.-You represent Feldheim, Jacobs, and Company?.,..,Yes.
47520. Your firm imports tobacco and cigars ?-Yes.
47521. Yoa desire to traverse some of the evidence that has been given by previous importers?­
yes, because we a re also interested as cigar manufacturers.
47522. Will you st~tte to the Commission the points upon which you disagree with previous
witnesses ?-It hros been proposed, to-day, to reduce the import duty upon cigars by Is. a pound ; tlmt
would do away with a great part of the protection that the colonial miicle has.
47523. Let me remind you it was proposed, at the same time, to reduce the duty upon the imported
leaf from ls. to Gd ., so you would be Bel. worse off by that arrangement being carried out?~ Yes, even that
6d. would put us in a worse position than we were in before the last alteration in the Turi£::
47524. Yon do not agree with that proposal ?-No, I do not. It has been mentioned that cigars
can be imported here for 25s.; as a matter of fact, you can get cigars at home at 19s., inclusive of everything-already
boxed and put in the ease, 19s. a thousand; whereas here we have to employ colonial
labor, and the lowest price for which we get cigars made is 25s. a thousand for the making alone ; that is
the mere, labor, rolling the cigars up. \Ve have, then, the additional expense of supplying the leaf;
we have to pay ::!5 per cent. duty upon the boxes, supposing we import the box, and thu.t is mostly
done.
4752G. They come in full of something, though, do not they ?-No, we import them as cut timber,
sawn, and we c·annot dispe11Se wit.h any of the protection we have at present. That is the view I urge,
In regard to the olher recommendations, the altering of the way of collecting the duty to collecting it per
thousa,nd, that also would work against the interests of the colonial article, because it has been propose

1405
475±9. Do yon mean to say it takes six months to send home an on1er for labels ?-Tu send home
and get them out.
47550. You say the colonittl printers are not equo1 to printing the labels for your cigar boxes 7-
They are not ; they are not quick enough; but I do not urge the taking off of the duty from cigar boxes.
The witness wit!td1·ew.
.:UhC'd Un.rt,
coutinued,
26th Aprill8SJ.
Edgar Arton Baskerville sworn and examined.
47551. By t!te a !tairrnan.-"What are you ?-Tobacconist. E.A. Bu.siwrville
9 ] f 26th Allrill883,
4755 ... In what way does t1e Tariff upon the article o tobacco affect yom business as a retailer of
tobacco ?-I think it has improved it, rather than not.
47553. Improved it ?-Improved it as far as I am coucerned, and I dare say it has improved it with
all the tobacconists.
47554. Do not speak for anyone else. Tell ns as far as you are concerneJ ?-It has improv!ld it as
:far as I am concerned.
47555. Iu what respect-in the amount of business doue ?--In the amount of business cloue.
Naturally before the duty there were larger stocks held by people in small w:1ys of business. Those people
do not hold that stock now, and, consequently, those who do not hold the stock do not do the tratle. I
understilm1 it is more difficult now to hold a stock than it was before, because, previous to the duty going
on, grocers aud even.fruit shops would buy five and even ten boxes. I know that, because I have sold it
to them-even the smallest men.
4755G. How many do the same people buy ?-They buy two pounds now, or :five pound;;.
47557. From the factories ?-No, from me.
47558. I thought you were a retail tobacconist yourself?-Yes, so I am, but it throws that class of
business now more into my hands and more into the hands of people who hold a stock. If a man bought
five boxes of tobacco previous to the duty, the only thing he hacl to do was, to give a bill of four or five
months, and he got it into his place without any cash outlay, and he sold it. If he was a cheap gyoeer he
sold it for immediate purposes, and raised the wind at cost price and turned it into immediate cnsh, and
dealt in butter and eggs with the money. He rose the wind upon the sales something considerably, nncl it
paid him in lots of cases, ancl in other cases it clid not pay him, ancl he forgot to pay for it.
47559. I ditlnot ask you how the grocer dicl ?-Now, those men have to pay £4 a box dnty, they
tlo not buy it. They buy ten pounds.
475GO. Without going into the reasons, the fact remains, that you sell now to grocers smn,ller
quantities than you sold before ?-Yes.
47561. In any other way has the Tariff benefited you ?-No, I clo not know it. Of course, it
takes a larger capital to work the business.
475G2. That is rather against you tlmn for you ?-It is. But then you get the spontaneous trade
that comes to you.
47563. Is there any alteration in the Tariff you wish to propose ?-No. I may say if you take
sixpence off the imported article, it would not reduce the price to the consumer a half-penny.
475G4. Will you explain to the Commission how that is?-Yes ; buying Golden Eagle, or any of
the first-class light aromatic tobaccoes, at the very lowest price, they will cost, d11ty paid, 5s., 2s., aud 3s.
the duty, or ls. lld.-very close upon it-that costs fivepence. I sell that for sixpence.
47565. What do you mean by" that costs fivepence" ?-Any of those bramls Y>'hieh are twelve to
the pound, they cost fivepence per plug, and we sell them at sixpence, and we get :fifteen per eent., a less
profit than anybody else in any other trade gets. A smaller profit than anyone in any other tmde gets.
47566. You buy at fivepence and sell for sixpence ?-Yes, and that is buying i1~ large quantities,
and buying well.
47567. And if you paid fourpence half-penny, you would still charge sixpence ?-Yes.
. 47568. Then the result of taking off the Tarlff would be merely to put sixpence a pound into the
pockets of the tradesmen like yourself'l-,Just so.
47569. Do you deal in cigars ?-Yes.
47570. Does the Tariff upon cigars suit you?-Yes; the cigars are o£ much better quality uow the
excise duty is on than they were before. Before, the cigars were of inferiol' quality. Tbc small
manufacturers used to turn them out, and the people used to bny cigars at I used to sell them ::.t
or nine shillings a box, the same price as I now ~ell at, though I buy at £4. The cheapest article I can
now huy-tl1e £4 a thousand-I sell that article for nine shillings a box, and when I gave £2 for them, I
sold them at uine shillings a box, and if the i.luty was takeu off cigars it would not benefit anybody but the
retailer.
47571. By llfr. Jrlcintyre.-Then the whole benefit your business has receivetl from the Tariff has
been that it has squelched the small dealers ?-It has tlirown the trade into the proper legitimate channel.
Why should the gt·ocers--
47572. We do not inquire into that. Personally I do not see why a milkman should not sell a cigar
instead of you, but I only want your evidence ?-It throws the business into the hands of holders or a
la1·ger stock.
·17573. Then you think the business of the colony shcmld be only done by a few?-No.
47574. Then what do you mean by that statement ?-I know that, so far as tobacco and cig·ars go,
the larger they are the better the article.
47575. Does that ?,pply to the retnil business ?-We have a certain fixed price. A man comes in
and asks for a twopenny or threepenny cig:1r. Now, if I buy an a::-ticle for £2 that will smoke, I can sell
that for twopence, or someone else will if I cannot. But if I pay £4 for an article, I must still sell it for
twopence. It is not goocl to get threepence, for I maintain that the cigars now in :Melbourne are
of much better quality than they vvore before.
47576. Do you attribute that t.o the dnty?-Yes.
47577. vVhy ?-The small makers use the lowest quality of leaf entirely.
47578. You do not know that-you me not a maker ?-I have been acquainted with the trade very
intimately. I bought cigars for £2 before the duty, nncl the man I bought from then is now manager for

E. A.Baskerville, Feldheim, J acobs, and that man is now gctt.iug twice or three times the wages he used to ma,ke when he
corJtinued,
26th Ap,·nJssa. was a master man.
47579. Did you travel for any firm ?-I did for Heinecke and Fox.
47 580. Then you know all about the secrets of their class of stuff ?-No.
47581. You do not; then why do you speak about the small manufacturers producing an inferior
article ?-Cannot I tell when I smoke it. If you had bad butter upon the t.able you would know it in a
moment.
47582. Have not you sold bad articles ?-No.
47583. Never?-Ifi have sold them, I have solcl them to hawkers, or jobbed them off. I only sold
them for what they were.
47584. What do you call those things in the trade ?-Tags.
47585. Have you ever used any of them ?-No; I have my own with my own 11ame on.
4758G. Do you wish to convey to the Commission that it is the custom of those not so large in the
trade as you to use things of this kind ?-No, I do not think it is done. .
47587. Then why do you put forward your evidence to prove that the benefit of the Tariff has been
solely by destroying the small class of traders in the country ?-At the present time there are perhaps
2,000 or 3,000 or 4,000 boxes of tobacco held in Melbourne by the different dealers. Previous to the duty
there was three times that quantity held. They do not buy the same quantity that they did befo1·e.
47588. You said that all before. The simple evidence you wish to convey to the Commission is this,
as I understand it, that the Tariff has had the effect of putting the poorer men out of the business ?-No,
certainly not.
, 47589. Then what is it ?-Why should it.put him out of the business?
47590. Is it better for the poor men ?-A man without capital certainly cannot compete with a man
with capital, and he never could and never will-everybody knows that.
4759 L By the Hon. Mr. Lorimer.-You say your business now is better than before the increase
of duty?-Yes.
47592. How much more tobacco are you putting out in the year ?-I could not tell that.
47593. Are you sure you are pnttiug out more?-Yes, I am sme I am doing better. I am making
more profit than I made before.
47594. But are you selHng a larger quantity of material-tobacco ?-No, I am not selling· a lnrger
quantity in this way. I used to do a five and ten-box trade. After I gave up travelling for Heinecke and Fox
I con tinned the b11siness myself, and I used to do perhaps £±00 a month, credit business, all round the town
with sellers and others, and as soon ftS tl1e duty went on I had not su:Hicient capital, or the profit was not
su:Hiciently good to enable me to give credit upon both capital and duty, and those small men cannot pay
cash, so I had to give up tbat branch.
47595. Then your business has not increased in quantity ?-No, I am taking about half the money
I took, but I make better results from it.
47fi96. I thought you said you were making a smaller profit upon a plug than you got before?­
Yes, but then I do a much larger retail trade, and the difference between the wholesale profit and the first
retail profit is very great.
47597. Was not your business increasing before the increased duty was put on ?-No.
47598. It was not ?-When the duty went on, everybody in Melbourne, and the manufacturers, bad
an enormous stock of tobacco on hand.
47599. Then it made tobacco clearer to you, I suppose ?-It lms made tobacco clearer to me by a
shilling a pound, and it has made it clear to the public by about sixpence to eightpence UlJOll the largest
sizes of cheap tobacco.
47 600. You think, then, it is better for the consumers of tobacco to have it dear than to have it cheap,
and is it better for the dealers ?-Better for the retailer?
47601. Yes, and for the public ?-It is better for the public to have the article cheap, but you must
nmlerstand if the shilling duty was taken off we should not reduce that shilling.
47602. You might not, but somecne else might ?-We do not get any advance upon cigars now.
W c retail cigars at the same price as we did before. Tobacco is sixpence an ounce now, and it was sixpence
an ounce before.
The witness withdrew.
MontngueLevy,
26tll AprlJJsss.
1406
Montague Levy swom and examined.
47603. By the Chairman.-What firm do you represent ?-.Myself.
47604. Where is your place of business ?-No. 1 Collins street.
47605. Your business is a retail tobacconist's ?-Yes.
47606. How does the duty upon tobacco ana cigars affect yom business as a tobacconist ?-Prejudicially.
47607. Will you explain to the Commission in what way?-Yes, firstly I propose that it be reduced,
imported tobacco to 2s., imported leaf to be admitted free, and t.he excise dnty to remain as it is.
47608. That is not an answer to my qnestion. You saicl that the Tariff affected your business as a
retailer prejudicially ?-Yes..
47609. I ask you to explain to the Commission how it does that. We will come afterwards to the
question of alteration ?-On account of the high duty.
47610. Dcesit make people buy less tobacco, then ?-Yes.
47611. Do you wish the Commission to understand that your business has been reduced since the
imposition of this additional shilling duty?-Yes. .
47612. You are doing less business than you were before?-Yes.
47613. Do you wish the Commission to understand that that is due to t.hese duties and not due to
tlJe subdivision of the trade amongst"' larger number of shops ?-No.
47614. Y cu donotwisb us to understand that ?-I vvishyou to unclerstunclthat; I speak now as a retailer,
dealing exclusively in imported tobaccoes ; I do not sell any colorri!Ll tobaccoes. I found that after the last
shilling was imposed that lots of working meu would not pay the additional price, or could not, and they

1407
told me thttt they preferred leaving off smoking to smoking an inferior article, consequently my business l\foutogue Levy,
continu.ed~
has decreased.
26th April1883.
47G15. The result of the duty was, then, to lessen your business through forcing people to give up
smoking?-Yes.
47616. Now tts to the proposal that you have to mtLke to get your trade back again ?-li'irstly, I
think if importell tobacco were reduced to 2s. instead of 3s. it would form a basis of what all politicians
wish to see, that H would lead, perhaps, to intercolouial free-trade.
47617. We are not politicians here-never mind them ?-It would be a great introduction to intercolonial
free-trade. We are shut out altogether from the Ri verina trade.
47618. Do you do an export trade ?-I used to, so called, export.
4761£1. What was that ?-That people coming down from Rivcrina used to take their supplies from
Melbourne, instead of which we are a shilling dcarer here, and they bring their supplies to Melbourne; pt'ivate
gentlemen, squatters, and so forth, want to take one or two boxes of cigars away with them. They cannot
buy sufficient quantities for private use for us to ship in bond. I am what they call a middleman between
the wholesale dealer and the consumer.
47620. Then your proposal is to go back to the old dnties ?-Yes, :mcl I will tell you why. I have
been now in the retail business over two years, and before that, I represented one of the largest firms here
for ten years HS a commercial trnveller, local and intercolonial, and I find that the public do not reap the
benefit of these low priced tobaccoes, and I will explain to you how. Y on had evidence given to you
yesterday th11t the colonial mmmfacturecl tobacco is sold for Is .. 4tl. I HID speaking now of before the
duties, because the excise duty does not affect us if it. is mised correspondingly retail. It was sold for
Is. 4d. and the highest manufactured from imported leaf was sold l1t 3s., and you also elicited that about
two-thirds of the cheap tobacco was sold to one-third of the better class; bnt you did not elicit that they
make seveml betweeu grades of which they sell almost nothing, because, I can speak from experience, a
man buys ten boxes of ls. 4d. tobacco; he used to buy a size going four to the pound, that he could retail
for 6d.; he would buy a size, six to the pound, that he could ret!til for 6d. and even 7d., and !LS high tts
eight to the pound, all the same quality tobacco, which varied in price retail from 2s. to 3s. 6d. and 4s.
47621. And paid the same price for it ?-Yes, I speak facts now.
47622. Must not the public be very ignorant to buy an m·ticle that way ?-It is a very blind article
till you lmve smoked it; you cannot tell by appearance, and I have samples here to prove my words.
47623. Was not that sort of thing done with the imported tobacco before the colonial was made ?-
No.
47624. Wet·c the pnblic better judges of the imported tobacco then ?-There was not the line for
the imposition. They could buy best imported tobaccoes. which never varied, marketable articles, more
than ls. to ls. 6d., and they httcl to pay duty 11pon that. 'fhc highest priced retail tobacco used to be 5s.,
and there was !lot the room.
47625. But could not they have different sized cakes, four and six and eight to the pound and sell
all at the same price ?-No, they could not sell at a lower price on account of the duty upon imported
tobacco, and they could not get the higher price, pmchasers knowing they conld"get the best for 5s. ; ancl
another thing, I do not think it would interfere wi.th colonial-m

1\Iontag.ue Levy, on a label, what they eaU a tag, and on their best colonial manufactured as they were termed, upon their
26 t~ 0 f~;ftefsss. crack O'oods, yesterday here, they are also putting a label, but they are not distinguishable enough, they are
merelyb tin tags, and the public as long as they see the tin tags do not look into it. It is very umlis-,
tin(J'uislmble : it should be more decided umler Act of Parliament.
"' 47636. You suggest that colonial manufacturers should be compelled to put on n brand that the
public could know it by ?-Just so.
47637. So that the public could get a cheaper article at a cheaper rate ?-Yes, just so.
47638. And not be imposed upon by being charged t)le imported article rate for ihe colonial article ?
-Yes ; and if the dut.y were reduced a shilling a pound, or even 6d. a pound, Mr. Baskerville's argument
falls to the grouurl. because, as regards the consumer not being benefited, tobacco comes out made in plugs
to suit the duty. Before the imposition of this extra shilling, tobaccoes were ret;cilecl ten and five to the
pound for 6d. and n shilling. After the imposition they came out six and twelve to the pouml. If it were
reduced 6d. they would come out eleven and five and a-half to the pound, so that the public would reap
the benefit.
47639. They get a little more weight or a little less weight ?-According to the duty. As regards
the labelling, it is ~arriecl on to a very large extent here. I could mention shops in town where it has been
done-I Llo not know if it is clone now-and I have seen 1t clone myself in the country. The only suggestion
I hllve to make is, that the Customs department, as they protect the hotelkeepers and the public by sending
round inspectors, so they should protect us, by sending inspectors from the. Excise department.
47640. Let the Excise officers inspect?-Yes.
476-!1. Have you anything further to add ?-Not upon tobacco.
47642. Have you upon cigars ?-Yes. The cigarmakers were examined yestercla.y, and they all
aO'ree that the one shilling extra duty lk'ls not benefited them, because it was put also upon the imported leaf;
c~nseqnently they have only the mme amount of protection as they had before, and not one of t.hem admitted
that they use any colonhtlleaf; they all denied 11sing it, as it was unfit for consumption or for manufacturing
cigars; consequently the growers do not rec10ive any benefit from the protective duty; and I think if
imported leaf were admitted free ancl the excise of a shilling a pound still collected upon the cigars, they
would not then have to pay duty upon the stalks that they complain of, and cigars would be manufactured
with leaf admitted free.
47643. They Llo not pny upon the stalks now. The cigars are stemmed first ?-If the leaf were
admitted free and cigars admittell at 5s. a p01md, as before, it would not interfere with them, nncl tile public
would get the benefit, and it would not seriously interfere with the revenue because the colonialmanufncturers,
I may tell you, are now unable to cope 11;ith the demaml. .
47644. Cannot supply all the orders ?-They cannot, and I am at liberty to instance the name of a
gentleman in the trade who has not been summoned here who wanted to give a branch of the trade his
special attention.
476-!5. Do not give any hearsay evidence please~you do not buy colonial tobacco at n.ll ?-I buy
colonial cigars, and I find a Jifficnlty even in the few I use, to get my orders executed. Of course you
could forestall that by ordering in advance, but a man who does a regular business cannot replace by
orders within a reasonable time.
47GJG. Anything further to add ?-Yes, that a licence of £25 or a bond fide licence, I do not sn.y
the amount-I suggest that-be placed upon tobacconists instead of the foolish registration duty now of 5s.,
which I fail to see the use of. vV e are licensed now for 5s. a year.
47647. Yon recommend they should be licensed the same as publicans ?-Yes, to a certain extent,
and I will tell you why, that dealing largely in an article on which there is excise lhity and import duty, I
think it shoulcl be in the hands of reputed respectable people, and it would tend to raise the tone of the trade
and preYent a great deal of smuggling going on, because all those Chinese cigars that were smuggled recently
found their way into the hands of very small people, and the moment they came to the legitimate trade the
whole affair was exposed, and, of course, we are placed at a disadvantage in that way.
47 6-!8. Anything fnrther ?-No.
47649. Bp A11·. Zox.-Do you think that the mere fact of raising the registration fee from 5s. to
£25 would have the Llesired effect of placing the business in the hands of respectable men ?-I llo.
47650. Why ?-There is no system that would be introduced that would not be abused. I know
that very well ; but anyone is at liberty now to buy half a dozen oranges and half of fifty cignrs and 5s,
worth of tobacco and they can open a tobacconist's shop.
47():)1. Why should they be debarred from trading as long as they carry on their business respectably
?-I do not think they would be debarred; but it would debar many grocers from meddling in that
line ancl making it a cutting line in which we are engaged, and have to make a Teady money outlay ; and
even the small men would reap the benefit, as I admit it. would be unfair to tax a small man as much as a
large man. If it could be armnged upon a sliding scale according to the rental paid it would be better.
47652. In point of fact, you think it should be a monopoly to men who could pay a certain amount
of money ?-Just the same as .licensed victunllers are licensed.
47653. Is there any difficulty for an expert to detect between American manufactured tobacco and
colonial manufactnred tobacco ?-Yes, there is a difficulty.
47654. What is the difference ? - There is a great difference between the average colonial
article and the imported in quality.
47G55. I asked, would there be any difficulty for experts in judging between American tobaccoes?­
Any ordinary man smoking it could tell the difference, but even an expert might be deceived by the
eye.
47656. Then you desire an officer to be appointed under the Act to distinguish between the two
tobaccoes ?-Yes; I will tell you how it would work. An inspector comes into my shop and says," Is
this Two Seas?" ''Yes." " .. Where did you buy it?" ''I pnid duty upon it ; I could show you I paid
duty upon it." Or if I bought it I could produce the invoice ; but if I have no imported tobacco in my
place the officer could easily jLHlge that the public were being imposed upon. ·
47657. What benefit would accrne from the total abolition of the duty upon importedlea.f ?-You
could not consistently reduce imported tobacco without reducing the imported leaf, and I suggest that,
1408

1409
because the revenue would not be clecreasecl so largely, and because the shillina excise duty would be still Montague Levy,
ll l b h l ' l d · d l f. ~ contitmed.
eo ectec upon ot eo oma an 1mporte ea . 2ilth Aprn 1 ss 3 •
47658. It was not suggested that there should be a total abolition of the duty upon the manufactured
article ?-I would reduce it to 2s.
47659. You go in for the entire abolition of the duty upon leaf ?-Yes.
47660. Why ?-Because we have had proof that the farmers, for whose benefit it was imposed,
have not benefited by it, and the pnblic have to pay it.
47661. Supposing the entire abolition of imported leaf were to be agreed upon, would it not of
necessity reduce the consumption of the colonial-grown article ?-I do not think so.
47662. Why not ?-Because we have proof of an immense difference between the colonial-o-rown
0
leaf and the .American leaf.
47663. Yon say the .American leaf is so far superior ?-So it is.
47664. If the public are able to obtain a superior article from the .American leaf they would not
have the colonial leaf?-They can produce it so much cheaper from the colonial leaf, colonial-grown is so
much cheaper.
47665. What is the difference between .American leaf and colonial-growu ?-I do not deal in leaf,
but .American is from lOd. to l6cl. and the colonial is 6d.
47666. By lJfr. Woods.-Could not a single invoice be made to cover any quantity of tobacco. I
understood you to say that if your tobacco were challenged by an inspector, you would answer that by
producing the invoice ?-Yes.
47667. Would that necessarily apply to that tobacco ?-You would have to show the box.
47668. You could show a box ?~Yes.
4'7 669. Could not you show twenty boxes on the same invoice, one after the other?-You could, but
you would have to show whether it was imported or colonial. The invoice would have to guide you.
47670. I understood you to say even experts could not tell the difference ?-Not by sight, by
smoking they could.
47671. By iWr. Walker.-You said you formerly had an intercolonial trade with Riverina ?-Yes.
47672. And you have lost it ?-Yes.
47673. Is that owing to the difference in duty between here and New South Wales ?-Yes, I
attribute it to that.
47674. Cannot you ship tobacco in bond?-Yes, but I am not in the wholesale trade, and I sell to
gentlemen who do not buy sufficient to ship in bond.
47675. That does not shut out the wholesale traders, does it ?-No.
47676 . .As to branding tobacco, I understand that to apply to boxes ?-Boxes and tobacco too.
47677. But the public never see the boxes ?-No.
47678. It would be no protection to them to brand boxes ?-No.
47679. W onld yon recommend every plug of tobacco to be branded?-Yes.
47680. Wherever it is from ?-Yes.
47681. You do not mean only to brand colonial tobacco ?-We cannot of course compel .Americans
to do it.
47682. Yes you can ?-They do it for their own protection.
47683. Is all Americau tobacco branded upon the plug ?-No.
47684. Then if the law were altered to compel their tobacco to be branded upon the plug, would
not that be a protection to the public to see what they were buying?-Yes.
47685 . .And do away to a great extent with the necessity for inspection that you speak of ?-Yes.
47686. With regard to the reduction of cluty-'-would not your views be met, and your idea be met,
if the excise duty were to be increased, and leave the duty as it is upon imported tobacco ?-No.
47687. Why ?-Because the imported tobacco is out of the running in consequence of the price.
47688. Ou acc:unt of the high price ?-On account of the hi~h price.
47689 . .And your experience is that the duties do increase the price of the article ?-:Most decidedly.
47690. Some people think they do not. You say you buy colonial cigars, and sell them again, of
course ?-Yes.
47691. Do you mean by that, cigars made here out of imported leaf ?-Yes, supposed to be. I
have a sample-I believe they are.
47692 . .Are they made out of imported leaf ?-I believe they are.
47693. Wholly ?-I pay a price to warrant their being so.
47694 . .Are you aware that the quantity of imported leaf has fallen off tremendously in the last
two or three years ?-No, I am not.
~" 76H5. The quantity of leaf imported the last two years, that we have any record of, is about half
what it was previously-how do you account for that ?-By the consumption of colonial tobacco.
47696. Does it go into consumption as colonial tobacco ?-I do not know that I can account for it
any other way, as it cannot be exported.
47697. You sell those cigars as made of imported leaf?-Yes.
4i698. You do not know that it is ?-No; I just use them for the cheap cigar tmde.
47699. By tlte .Hon. Mr. Lorimer.-Have your sales of cigars been diminished by the higher price?
-Yes, through the loss of my Riverina trade. ·
47700. Do you find the consumption of cigars in any way affected by the higher duty ?-No ; but
it reduced our profits considerably in certain brands the public will have, and we lose an additional shilling
per pound. We must sell Manilla cigars for 3d., and a first-class Havannah cigar for 6d., brands tlmt you
cannot get under a certain price, and the additional ls. per pound comes out of the retailer's profits.
47701. And you consider that the knocking off of the shilling duty upon the imported leaf would
be an equivalent to the reduction of the import duty from 6s. to 5s. ?-7 es. ·
47702 .. Would it not be more than an equivalent ?-I believe it would, a little more.
47703. Do not you consider that it would be an encouragement to the manufacturer of colonial
cigars ?-I do.
Tlte witness withdrew.
TARIFF.
8Q

G. Da.mman,
26th Aprill883.
l410
Gustave Damman sworn and examined.
47704. By the Clwirman.-You area retail tobacconist?-! am.
47705. Where is your place of business ?-Corner of Collius and Swanston streets.
47706. I11 what particular do you wish to supplement the evidence given by previous witnesses ?­
With respect to the duties upon tobacco and cigars.
· 47707. Do you agree with the evidence that has been given ?-I cannot entirely agree with some
evidence given.
47708. On which p·:rint do you disagree ?-As a retailer in tobacco I do not think my trade has
suffered very much, but I wish to point out that I consider the present tariff acts unfairly to the country ;
it protects the American tobacco and protects the colonial tobacco out of the market in my opinion.
47709. That is a matter for the manufacturers themselves. I ask you to give evidence as a retailer ;
you say, as a retailer, the tariff has not injured your business ?-No, not as a retailer.
47710. You are not a manufacturer, are you ?-I am not.
47711. It is for the manufacturers to speak about that aspect of the case you refer to ?-I wish to
express my opinion about this.
47712. I do not want opinions, I want any facts you have got to give me in relation to your own
business ?-I have nothing to say in respect to the alterations.
47713. You agree with things as they are, as a retailer ?-Yes, only with respect to cigars we are
more interested. Before any cigars were manufactured in this colony we could sell parcels to hotelkeepers
and to grocers and different others, but since then the colonial manufacturers have taken it out of our hands
and deprived the legitimate trade, who pay heavy rates and taxes, of their legitimate business.
47714. Have you anything further to add ?-I think it is a folly and a crime to force the people
to work on imported materials. I propose that the duty be reduced to 5s.
47715. You agree with the evidence of the previous witness then ?-And on imported leaf, say
2s. 6d., and then colonial leaf free, and no excise, that would do away with the locker and licence.
47716. That has nothing to do with you-the locker and the licence-you are not a manufacturer,
are you ?-I speak more for the benefit of the country than myself.
47717. We are now only taking the evidence of retailers on the retail trade. As I understand you
it has not affected you as a retailer at all ?-It has in cigars-it has taken the trade out of our hands.
47718. That was a sort of wholesale trade, you used to supply shops ?-That was a sort of counter
trade, you can hardly call it retail trade. ' ·
The witness withdrew.
H. L. Raecke sworn and examined.
rr. L. Raecke, 47719. By tlte Chairman.-Where is your place of business ?-97 Swanston-street.
26 th:Aprili883. 47720. You are a retail tobacconist ?~I am.
47721. You heard the evidence of previous witnesses who gave evidence as retailers ?-I have.
47722. In what respect do you differ from them ?-I wish to let the board know my opinion.
47723. We do not want opinions, we have the evidence of three witnesses-wherein do you differ
from them ?-One goes in for 2s. 6d. duty instead of 3s., another for 2s.; I consider it ought to be 2s. to
reduce the duty upon American manufactured tobaccoes.
47724. You want to go back to the old duties ?-Yes, both upon tobacco and cigars.
47725. You agree with Mr. Levy's evidence ?-I do agree with him and I want to back him up
in it.
47726. Has the increase of the duty injured your business ?-It has to a certain extent decidedly.
47727. What do you mean by that "to a certain extent" -are you doing less business than you were
before ?-Certainly.
47728. Could you show the Commission by your books that you are doing a worse business now than
it was five years before ~-I think I could.
47729. You think you could ?-I think I could.
47730. It cannot have gone down very much if you do not know it, if it is only a matter of thinking?
-I have been in business for the last twenty-five years and in the colony over thirty, and I think I know
my own business.
47731. And you are not sure whether your own business is less now than it was five years ago?­
The sale of imported American tobacco is less now than it was before the additional duty was put on.
47732. How many more tobacconists are there since the duty was put on ?-Any amount.
47733. Then could not you expect to lose some part of your trade ?-But there is the increase of
population to be considered.
47734. Not in proportion to the increase of tobacconists ?-I wish to draw your attention to the £10
licence.
47735. Who pays the £10 licence ?-Nobody at all. We are supposed to be licensed for 5s.; I want
it made £10, Mr. Levy mentioned £25.
47736. No, he said a sliding scale according to the amonnt of business people did ?..:_I think a £10
licence would be desirable.
47737 .. It would suit you ?-Yes.
47738. About your size ?-Yes, about my size.
Plw witness uJitltdrew.
R. T. HB.mmond,
26th AprU 1883.
Henry Thomas Hammond sworn and examined.
4 7739. By tile Chairman.-What are you ? -Chief inspector of distilleries and excise.
47740. Have you any information to furnish the Commission with as to the way in which the
increase of the duties last imposed upon tobacco and cigars have worked ?-I can show you the increase
since that excise duty was imposed.
47741. The increase of revenue ?-The increase of revenue.
47742. What has that been ?-For the first six months the excise was only £21,000, but that was
owing to the large stock the manufacturers had on hand.

1411
47743. How was that divided between tobacco and cigars ?-£20,500 in
cigars. But for the next twelve months the duty came to £65,000.
47744. You still speak of excise only ?-All in excise.
tobacco and £1,300 in H. T. Hammoml,
cMtinuea.
26th A:prill88~.
. 47745. How was that divided ?-£62,287 for tobacco and £2,616 for cigars. For the financial year
ending 30th June, or two months from now, the estimated revenue is £75,000 or an increase of £10,000
over last year; and the amount already received induces me to believe that that figure will be reached. ·
47746. That is an increase of £10,000 only upon last year ?-£10,000.
47747 . .And the way in which the duty is being paid induces you to believe that that will be
realized ?-Yes.
47748. So from a revenue point of view the imposition of the excise duty has been beneficial ?-As
far as the excise is concerned.
47749. By JJfr. Walker.-You have lost it upon the other one ?-I say so far as excise goes.
47750. By the Chairman.-Can you give the Commission any information as to the total quantityof
tobacco and cigars that goes into consumption-now has it increased or decreased since the duties were
imposed ?-The quantity of colonial tobacco and cigars has increased.
4775!. The excise shows that, but has that increase upon the colonial more than compensat€d for
the decrease upon the imported ?-I can give you the figures of the imported for the last three or four years.
47752. That is the weight ?-The duty, I have the different rates, so it would be -very easy to strike
the weight, but I see I have the weights. ,
47753. What was the total consumption of tobacco in the colony, say for three years preceding the
change, and for three years since the change was made ?-The duty upon the import€d was, for 1878-79,
at 2s. a pound, £61,000; and 1879-80, at the same rate, it was £49,000 ; and when the tariff was altered
from 2s. to 3s., there were two amounts taken in 1880-81, at 2s. £20,000 and at 3s. £17,500. In 1881-82,
at 3s., the revenue was £41,000.
47754. Now can you give me what the weights were at these dates, the quantity ?-For 1877-78,
613,659 lbs.; for the next year, 489,262 lbs.; for the third year at two rates, 376,125lbs.; for 1881-82,
411,482lbs.; and for the first nine months of this present financial year, 353,169lbs.
47755. Those are all imported?-Those are all imported.
47756. So that notwithstanding the imposition of a higher duty, the import is pretty well keeping
up ?-Yes, it is.
47757. So that the totaJ consumption is much larger than it was before ?-Yes.
47758. Then those who are under the impression that the duties have made men leave off smoking
are under a wrong impression ?-They are, the facts speak for themselves.
47759. Will you give me the weights of colonial tobacco that has been used ?-I have not got the
weights, I can easily get them for you, but of course it is at Is. a pound, and that is easily found. The
second year, that is from the 1st of July, 1881, to the end of June, 1882, out of the 65,000 lbs. manufactured
tobacco excise, 10,000 lbs. was imported. leaf.
47760. That leaves 55,000 lbs. tobacco and cigars ?-Colonial grown.
47761. How much did you collect upon cigars that year; let us deduct it ?-£2,600, and so in
proportion for this current year.
47762. Have you any further information to give the Commission ?-No, I have no information
except that I think that since the duty was imposed and since manufacturers were allowed to get their
condiments in free of duty, they have turned out a far better article than before the imposition of it. "
47763. The quality of the coloniaJ article is improving ?-I say so.
47764. You heard the evidence of various witnesses fo1· the modification of the licence-fee for manufacturers,
how would that act ?-I think the duty is as low as it cim be.
47765. What is the lowest licence-fee charged to cigar manufacturers ?-Fifty pounds.
47766. Is that charged to the man or to the building?-To the man, the licensee.
47767. Suppose two or three small men club together in one building, would you charge £50 each?
-No, we charge the building then.
47768. There is nothing to prevent small men, two or three of them, uniting and using one building
and dividing it between them ?-That was what we asked them to do yvhen the .Act came in, and we asked
them to go all into one large building upon the wharf, but I suppose they were all jealous of their particular
trade and they refused.
47769. You heard the question asked about the licence-fee to the tobacconists ?-Yes.
47770. Would that be of any service to your department ?-No, it would bring no more revenue.
47771. You heard about an inspector looking after tobacco, as he is supposed to do in the matter of
grog-how would that work ?-As to the labels?
47772. Yes, to see that the public have not the colonial article forced upon them as the imported?.-
Yes, I think that is a very good suggestion-! refer to the label. ·
47773. Not to the inspector?-No, not to the inspector.
, 47774. What is your opinion about inspection-woulcl that be feasible, could the department carry
it out ?-I do not think they could distinguish between imported and colonial tobacco.
47775. By Jl:lr. Jffcintyre.-Not if they smoked it ?-Yes, of course.
47776. By the Hon. Mr. Lm·imer.-You say the consumption of tobacco has increased during the:
last few years ?-I said, in answer to Mr. :Mirams, that the revenue upon the import had not fallen off.
47777. I see the revenue upon tobacco in 18'73 was £146,000 ?-I have not got that.
47778. In 1881 the combined excise and import revenue was £133,000, that is a loss of £13,000 in
the aggregate from 1873 to 1881 ?-I was only s~eaking of the dat~s I have got down here. .
477'79. Have you calculated the consumptwn of the two articles, the home-made and the Imported.
article ?-As I understood lVIr. Mirams' question, it was whether the quantity of importei.l tobacco had been.
lessened-that was the question that I answered, not as far as the cluty was concerned, but as to the quantity.
47780. You have given contrary evidence to some of your precl,ecessors who have been. examined,.
that the consumption of tobacco has increased rather than diminished?-Yes.
47781. The two together ?-The two together, but I meant the difference between the excise duties:
of the two years. ·

n. T. J.J:ammond, 4'7782. The excise alone-but has not the imported fallen off to a correspom1ing amount ?-I do
26t~ 0 ~~~·~t1Ba3. not think it has.
4'7783. Do you know if that inc.rea~e is in proportion to the increase of population ?-I ha.ve not gone
into it so minutely as that.
47'784. Have you the estimate of the tobacco for tins year-financial year 1883 ?-For the nine
months.
4'7'785. You gave us an estimate of the excise duty to 30th ,June ?-Yes.
4'7786. Have you any estimate of the import?-I have not got the estimated import duty, but I can
give the figures for the last nine months. ·
4 '7'787. I want to compare with the last year to see the change in the import revenue. You cannot
gi,·e us it ?-No, I have only got it for the nine months.
4'7788. B!l111r. Walker.-Have you got the amount collected upon unmanufactured tobacco in 1880?
-No.
47'789. You have not that separate ?-No, I have not got it since the excise duties were imposed.
The duty in 1881 was £10,000 collected upon unmanu:factured toba.cco.
47790. We have that £7,726. This statement must be altogether wrong?-That may be the year
from ,January to December, I speak of the financial year to the end of June.
47'791. B.11 the Hon. Jlr. Lorimer.-This is the year ending 31st December ?-That is the reason
then.
4'7'792. By the Chcdrman.-Will you let me have those figures again. In the year 1877-78 you
say the weight of tobacco imported was 613,659 lbs. ?-Yes.
47793. Was duty paid upon all that, or was some of it re-exported without paying duty ?-Duty
paid upon the whole of that weight at 2s. a pound.
4'7794. That does not include what was imported and re-exported ?-No.
4'7'795. In the year 1878-79, the quantity imported was 489,262lbs. ?-That is it, that is the quantity
duty paid.
4'7'796. All the figures I am using now come under that head. The year 1879-80, the quantity was
376,125lbs. ?-Yes.
47797. The year 1881-82 was 411,482lbs. ?-Yes, at 3s.
47798. And nine months of the present year, which ends upon the 30th June next, has been
353,359 lbs. ?-358,169.
4'7799. The year 1881-82, you say the total amount obtained from excise was a total of £65,000?-
y es, upon the manufactured article.
47800. You deduct £10,000?-Duty paid for imported leaf.
47801. Leav-ing £55,000 ?-Yes. .
47802. You deduct £2,500 from that as the duty paid upon the cigars ?-Yes.
4'7803. Leaving £52,400 paid at the rate of Is. excise upon tobacco?-Yes.
47804. Multiplying that £52,400 by twenty will give us the number of pounds weight made-will
it not ?-Yes.
47805. That is 1,0,18,000 lbs. of it manufactured in the colony ?-Yes.
4'7806. And 411,482 imported ?-Yes.
4780'7. So that the consumption has increased ?-Has increas.ed.
The witness withdrew.
1412
George Burrows sworn and exmuined.
GeO'I'ge Bm•rows 47808. By the Chairman.-What are you?-A cigarmaker.
l!tlthAprlll883, 47809. Cigar manufacturer?-No, I was a cigar manufacturer before the duty came on. The duty
coming on of £50 put a stop to me.
4'7810. Was it the £50 licence-fee that you are unable to pay ?-Yes, and the £2,000 surety.
47811. What surety?-£2,000, or rather the two of £500, that makes £1,000.
47812. Two £.500 bends ?-Yes.
47813. And a licence-fee of £50 ?-Yes.
47814. Then you were compelled to close your little work?-Yes.
47815. How many hands were you employing before that ?-Two besides myself.
47816. You are employed now in one of the factories ?-I am employed now in one of the factories,
as one of the journeymen. ·
47817. Are you doing any worse as a journeyman than you were doing before ?-Yes. The licence
has injured me v-ery much since it has been on. I do Dot want it to be taken off eniireiy. I want it to be
on a sliding scale, or the leaf all go into bond, and take a shilliDg off the manufactured cigars and put it
upon the colonial and imported leaf, and buy the leaf out of bond, and pay the same licence as they do
at home-fiv-e guineas.
47818. You want to transfer the supervision of the Customs Department from the manufactory to
the field where the tobacco is grown ?-Yes.
47819. How are you going to do that ?-All the tobacco that is grown up-country, instead of going
into the stores here, to send it into bond.
47820. Suppose they evaded the Customs, and sent it somewhere else, and not into bond, how is the
Customs Department to keep a supervision over every fat·m where tobacco is grown, and see that it does go
into bond ?-The present system they seem to evade in regard to the stalk, and one thing and another.
47821. There is no evasion about the stalk, that is done openly and purposely ; the stalk is not used,
and they are not charged excise upon what they do not use ?-The only thing I can say is that the present
.licence is not fair ; it is a monopoly of the trade 'into big men's hands. .
47822. \>Ye can all see that, but we want to know if you small men cannot propose some feasible
··plan to alter it ?-If it acts at home upon £5, it would act, we think, here.
47823. That is only thinking. Why do not you small men, ~ve or ten of you, hire a large building
~and divide the duty?-We could not agree to get on together.

l4:13
47824. Y on did not need to agree if you took a large building, and split it into ten rooms. You George Btll'rows,
could buy one licence for the building, and the Cttstoms Department would be delighted P-I think I heard 26t~ 0 ';,_~~'ft'~ss3.
this afternoon that sinee the large masters have the trade in their hands, the cigars were much better, bnt if
it is put into the hands of the small men agaiu they could buy the same leaf and make the same quality, but
there are two masters here that want to have all the trade in their hands, that is Feldheim, J !',cobs, and
another one.
47825. You small men have the remedy in your own hands. You have only to club together and
take a large bnilding and divide the expeme. That is the only feasible plan that has been proposed-have
yon any other proposal to make ?-No, I cannot make auy other proposal better than the one I stated.
47826. You propose that the leaf should go into bond ?-Yes, to pay license according to the
number of cigars you make.
The witness withdrew.
SuGAR.
J oseph l:

J. F. Rt~httriiJlon, 47845. Not even by Mr. Robison ?--He might say he would undertake it, but with all due respect
2 6t:'.t;~fssa. to him, I shottld not like to give him the order. It would boil thirty tons at one charge. I do not think
he could do it.
47846. What do you wish to propose in relation to these matters ?-I do not propose anything; I
only came to answer any questions you may wish to put.
47847. Do I understand you to ask the Commission to reduce the duty upon all castings because
of this instance iu which you will have to pay ?-We should be very glad to see it; it is a very heavy tax
to come upon one order.
47848. Do we understand that you, on the strength of this one instance, desire the Commission tO>
recommend the abolition of duty altogethe:: upon iron castings ?-I do not see that in this case it does.
any good, because the orcler goes home all the same. If 50 per cent. were imposed the order would go
home.
47849. Your company is a limited liability company, is it not ?-No, unlimited.
47850. It is a good paying company, I believe ?-Yes.
47851. How much additional percen~age would it be to the profits of you!" directors if they did not
have to pay that £2 10s. upon those castings ?-The amount I have told you-about £2,300 on that order.
47852. So much more to distribute in the year's profits ?-Yes, it has to come out of the year's
profits of course. We do not go on adding to the capital.
47853. You would not have that out of one year's profits ?-Yes, because if you did not do that
the refinery would keep increasing in the books.
47854. But when you make an improvement in the building or plant, do not you charge that to
the capital account; you do not do it out of one year's profits ?-That is a mere matter of book-keepingthere
is only one pocket.
47855. Still it is a very important matter if there is a yearly charge and yearly expenditure--?­
I think I can tell you that this is an extraordinary expenditure-this one item ; but the ordinary expenditure-what
we call maintenance and machinery, which does come out of every year's profits-is £7,000
per annum. It takes that every year to keep the place in order.
47856. That has always to be spent in the colony ?-Yes.
47857. That is paid always to labour in the colony ?-No, some of it comes from home. This of
course is rather a large order.
47858. It will make the alteration· cost some thousands of pounds more than it would otherwise?­
£2,000 more.
47859. And consequently lessen your profits every year by interest upon £2,300 ?-Yes, precisely.
47860. That will not be a very large percentage out of the profits ?-No ; my only object in mentioning
that is to show how the thing presses.
47861. By Mr. Walher.-Did you make any attempts to castings made here ?-We are constantly
getting castings.
47862. :For this particular contract you refer to, did you ask for tenders in the colony ?-No.
47863. You only assume that the difference would be so much ?-I know we pay £18 to £22 for
1
castings when we get them.
47864. Do not you think you would get this large lot for less than a small one ?-I know that this.
shipment would be £13 10s.
47865. You told the Chairman that the cost here would be £18 ?-Yes.
47866. But you have no knowledge of that-you only assume it from your past experience?­
I know what the price of castings is.
47867. With regard to the loss in refining sugar, the same applies to all bonded goods. Afte:rrepacking
beer and wine you do ·not pay duty upon broken bottles ?-No, the Customs gets the revenue·
only upon what goes out.
47868. You only get just the same advantage as other people ?~Just the same. It puts us upoTh
a level.
47869. By ~Mr. M2mro.~How many shareholders are there in your company ?-About 35-between:.
30 and 40.
47870. There is never any balance-sheet published of the Sugar Company, is there ?-It is a private,
company.
47871. You could not deny it, if I stated that the profits were about 25 per cent., would you-from,
20 to 25 per cent. ?-That is a question I cannot answer. It is simply a large private firm.
47872. Which makes about 20 to 25 per cent. You have said that those castings could not be made·
iu the colony under from £18 to £20 a ton ?-Yes.
47873. You have.also stated to Mr. ·walker that you have not made any attempt ?-No.
47874. I state here that you can get those castings done at from £12 to £13 a ton ?-I am veryglad
to hear it.
4787 5. 1f you will advertise for those castings, and if there is a thousand tons, I will undertake to
say you will get those castings done for £13 a ton, and then you would have this advantage, that you would
have them made under your own supervision ?-No doubt. I am very glad to hear it. I will make
inquiries.
47876. I am getting castings done for £12 a ton-plain castings, and not a thousand tons of them ..
Supposing this excise were taken oft' would you get the sugar any cheaper ?-That is merely a question of
competition with other importers.
47877. That is, the proprietors would get the benefit, not the consumer ?-It would not affect the
price of sugar at all.
47878. If those castings were patent machinery or machinery that could not be made in the colony,
1414
I could have seen some force in your argument. Now, with regard to the copper, did you ever ask
Robison Brothers if they could make that copper boiler ?-I have no doubt they would say they could;
but I should have my own opinion.
47879. They have stated in this room that they could make any copper work· in the colony ?-They
undertook to raise the Austral. Ma.y I make just one remark ~~bout wharfage. The wharfage rates, I
suppose a large portion of them, go to maintain those fine wharfs here. We have a private wharf at.;

1415
Yarraville constructed and maintained at considerable expense. It runs out into the fair-way. It seems a ol'.F.El?ha.rdson,
serious tax. We paid wharfage rates for the year 1882 upon goods landed at our private jetty £6,336, 26 J;~fi"fsss.
which appears to us unequitable. It is a large contribution to the revenue, for which we receive nothing.
" 47880. By the Chairman.-Y on built the wharf yourselves ?-We built the whal!f ourselves, and
maintain it ourselves, and we never received a penny from any public source.
47881. By Mr. Walker.-The wharfage rate is not imposed simply to keep up the wharfs?­
I believe that is so.
47882. None else but you use your own wharf. You get the exclusive use of it ?-It is a private
wharf.
47883. Part of the rate goes to maintain light-houses and dredge the Bay, and so on ?-I believe so.
47884. By Mr. 11.{~6nro.-The dredge works for your wharf, does it not ?-Yes, we are in the
fair-way.
47885. You can bring up a large vessel alongside your wharf now?-Yes, a vessel drawing about
15 feet 6 inches.
47886. Which you could not do some years ago ?-No ; about 14 feet .
. The witness withdrew.
WINE.
Thomas Francis :S:yland sworn and examined.
47887. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-I am a vineyard proprietor.
4 7888. 1n this colony ?-In South Australia.
4 7889. Y on are desirous of giving some evidence to the Commission, I believe, as to the effect the
duty upon wine has upon the intercolonial trade ?-Yes, the effect the intercolonial duty has upon the wine
trade.
· 47890. Will you state to the Commission as briefly as you can what it is you wish to put before us, if
you please ?-What I would ask is if the Commission can aid me in getting free exchange of wines
between the colonies, or a differential duty.
47891. Free exchange of wines the produce of the various colonies_:_between the colonies ?-Yes.
4 7892. When you say a" free exchange" do you mean regardless of the quantities that either colony
might send ?-Yes, I limit it to the production of each colony.
47893. That is to say that Victoria might send 10,000 gallons into South Australia, and South
Australia might send 50,000 into Victoria, if she chose?-Yes, quite so, or into any other colony she

1416
,::r. F.J!Iylarrd,
not prepared for your question, but when you come to look at it I do not think the difference would be so
26t~ 0 1~~~e'{s 83 , much as you imagine, because, if N e>v ~outh Wales limits it to coloniaJ productions, the officers at ths
Murray would stop the wines unless they a, certificate that it is colonial production.
47904. Then you go back to the that it might be limited to colonial productions ?-Yes.
47905. Then the other difficulty smuggling comes in ?-Yes.
47906 . .All I can tell you is this, that individually, and I believe I for the Commission, we
should. be if we can propose some scheme by which intercolonial free-trade not only in wine but
other can be brought about ; but, up to the present, I confess I have not had much light thrown
upon the question, and I do not see my way clearly to it yet ?-I think it could be devised if there were
some meeting of commercial men to take it into consideration. Of course there was a commercial treaty
between South .Australia and Victoria. .At the first, in such a treaty, there might be an advantage on one
side or the other, but that would vanish as soon as the stocks were done. Possibly for the first six months,
if there were such a treaty as this between South .Australia and Vietoria, there might be a quantity of wine
from India, but I doubt, after the first three mcnths, w bother Victoria would not send three hogsheads for
every one she from South .Australia, for the wines are different in quality. The trade will be dormant
for the next or eight months, but if the South .Australian wines were here which differed in character,
they would be drunk largely, and the merchant would maintain his trade in them all the year round.
47907. Is there any other point you want to bring under our notice?-The border duties is themain
thing I came to upon, but there are other matters that I will not go· into at this late time of the
evening, but unless some such system as I mention is carried out you will not be able to cultivate the
English market, or any other market, to any great extent. If we Ciculd get the New South Wales wines
here, and eentraJize them, aud prep11re them fer export, no dcubt a large business might be done in .Australian
but as to their production I do not lcok so much to fgreign markets, for we are, I think, more
than capable of eonsuming all the wines we produee, and beyond that, the other colonies the same, providecl
free exchange was carried out between them.
The witness withdrew.
'R. Montgomery,
26th Aprill883.
Con.Ks.
Richard Montgomery sworn and examined,
47908. By tlw"Chairman.-What are you ?-Cork merchant.
47909. Are you a cork cutter as well ?-No. I have one man in my employment just to do littie·
jobs that come in.
47910. I understand you to be desirous of putting before the Commission some information in rela,
tion to this business in corks beyond what was afforded us the other afternoon, when we were inquiring into
the matter, is that oo ?-That is so.
47911. Will you state brieily, if you please, what you desire to ?-I may say to the Commission
that I am indifferent whether the duty comes off or stays on, because if it on, as it is at we charge
our customers with the duty. So that it makes no difference to me personally; but I have been requested
by some of tl1e large cork consumers, for instance in the soda-water trade, to give evidence to show that it
is a great burthen to them. Mr. Rowlancls, for instanee, is about the largest cork consumer in Victoria.
47912. Would it not have been much better for this evidence to come from themselves ?-I asked
them to come down. Mr. Rowlands has at present gone to England.
47913. I wish to point out to you that I cannot permit second-hand evidence in this case any more
than in any other, as I strictly limit our evidence to the way in which it affects the person himself who gives
evidence ?-I want to show that in 1881 the of corks were 200,000 lbs. weight, that was at 4d.
a pound duty, and a gross of corks is as near as possible a pound weight, so th&t the import was
200,000 gross.
47914. That is 4cl. a gross ?-Yes, and the duty paid was
47915. What is the average price of a gross of eorks corks at 14d.
to fine wine corks at 7s. a g1·oss, but they all pay the same
47916. Which has the eonsumption; is not there a far larger consumption in gingerbeer and
lemonade corks ?-Yes, by far.
47917. The value of those corks is how much a gross ?-Lemonade corks are worth about 2s. to
2s. 4d. a gross.
47918 . .And then you add the duty on to that ?-No, that is duty paid.
47919. Without the duty, say 2s. ?-Without the duty ls. 10d. or 2s.
47920. How many gross does a manufacturer use-say one like ::Yir. Rowlands ?-I do not
know how many gross, lmt I know that he paid within a few pounds of £500 duty last year. But I would.
wish to point out, as I said before, that it is immaterial to me whether the duty remains on or eomes off,
but it would take 100 men to manufacture the corks imported in 1881, and sinee the duty was in
1872 there has never been one who has gone into the trade of cork manufacture upon a scale to supply
the large consumers, because would not pay.
47921. Can you tell the Commission what kind of corks the few men do cut who are employed in
this business in :Melbourne ?-Principally, I believe, they cut corks for chemists.
47922. That is your experience ?-Yes; and for any jobs that are wanted.
47923. Do they cut bungs for brewers ?-They do a few, because the are heavier than eorks,.
and, consequently, the duty is higher.
47924. What is the value of bungs a pound ?-From 2s. up to 4s. 6cl. a gross-some higher.
47925. But I speak about how much a pound; they would more than a pound a gross ?-
there is ls. a gross duty, and they would weigh three pounds a
47926. If the duty were taken off the bungs, those men who bungs would~be out of employment?
-.As far as I know, I think all the men at present employed in cork.cutting would be still employed, even
if the duty were off, because it is for special work.

1417
47927. You clo not call bungs special work, do you ?-I have a cork cutter, but I should need him
~tU the same if the duty was off to-monow; and I wns to show that in 1881 there was only twenty
tons weight of cork wood imported, and take the half to be ten tons of what we call to be virgin
c6i·k wood, used for ornamental purposes in gardens and so on, leaving ten tons of which is 10,000
gross, or the work of six men. That is in 1881. The cork wood, and all the corks come to this
country, are mostly from Spain and Portugal. They are manufactured there, and a bale of cork wood, that
would produce fifty gross of corks, would measure half a ton. That is what the would be when it
is manufactured into corks ; it' measures just the lutlf, so that the importing cork wood into the country
costs double in freight alone what manufactured corks cost. For corks the freight is 1~d. a gross,
but if, you bring cork wood the freight is 3d. a gros~. If some person knew the trade, and had capital,
there has been an opportunity in the last ten years. I know the trade from beginning to end, but I never
could see that it would pay, or I would have commenced it long ago.
47928. Would there be any diffiCLtlty in m~nying out the proposal made by one of the cork cutters
to the Commission the other day that the duty should be iucreasBd from 4d. to 6d. a pound, and should be
confined only to the class of corks cut here-the chemists' corks ?-I would have no objection at all.
47929. I do not ask that. I ask practically would there be any difficulty in carrying out that
suggestion ?-It must be because chemists use all sm·ts of corks-big ones and little ones, and it would not
be much protection.
47930. Do not go into that please. Keep to the definite point. You are an experienced hand in
this business ?-Yes.
47931. Have been at it for many years ?-Yes.
47932. Is there any technical term by which chemists' corks are known in the trade which is not
applied to any other corks-soda-water or any other?-Yes.
47933. Then there is such a technical name ?-Yes.
47934. Then if you apply that name and all other corks shall come in free but those, the trade
and every one else would known what was meant
47935. And you could prevent defrauding the revenue '?-Yes, but 6d. a pound upon corks would
not be any protection.
47936. That is not to the pm·pose. themselves ought to know and they ask for it. All
I ask from you can practical effect be to it?-Yes, the names of corks would be vials and
daffies.
47937. Assuming that there might be !t way of evading the Customs by names and technical terms,
for people who want t.o evade the Customs are very clever at it, is there a measurement that could be
used ?-No, no measurement. A daffy is a cork a little larger than a vial cork, used for what we call
ounce bottles.
47938. What is the size of that cork in diameter ?-It is smaller than a ginger beer cork and larger
than a vial.
47939. Assuming that a vial cork is anything up to three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and that a
daffy is half-an-inch, and that gingerbeer corks and other corks used by those cordial manufacturers are
five-eighths or three-quarters of an inch, would it not be possible to make a tariff that all corks half-an-inch
and downwards in diameter are to pay 6d. a pound duty and all corks above that free ?-Yes, it could be
done.
47940. Would not that be feasible ?-Yes, it would.
47941. Have you anything else to say ?-No.
The witness withdrew.
U. Mont~omery,
t:ontinued,
26th Apr!l1888.
Robert Godwin sworn and examined.
47942. By the Chairman.-'\!Vhat are you ?-Cork manufacturer. l!obertGodw!n,
47943. Cork cutter ?-Cork manufacturer, in all its branches. 26th Apri!Isaa.
47944. Have you read the evidence that was given by other people in your business the other clay?
-I have.
47945. Do you agree with the proposal to increase the dnty to 6d. a pound upon all corks of a
certain character, and let the rest in free ?-It is impossible to separate them like that.
47946. Assuming that they could be separated, do you agree with that in principle ?-If the duty is
increased to 6d. a pound, it must be over a,ll kinds of corks.
47947. Assuming for the that such a division could be made, would you be satisfied with
it ?-No.
47948. Why would you not be satisfied ?-I would rather the duty remain as it i:; than that it should
be altered in that form, because the would be handicapped very heavily against all others.
47949. Tell me now, what difference it would make to a druggist whether he paid 6d. a
pound duty npon his corks or 4d. imported price in some of the small corks is only 6cl. a gross, and
6d. duty would be a shilling.
47950. We are not talking about a gross, we are talking about a pound; how much would a gross
of this sort weigh ?-Those small homreopathic corh we are cutting weigh about five gross to the pound,
and the duty is only 4d. ·
47951. Five gross of corks now pay 4d. duty upon the iivc ?-Just so.
47952. If this proposal were canicd out, it would pay 6d. upon the five gross ?-Yes.
47953. Do vou mean to tell me that that would make the appreciable difference to a homreopathic
chemist ?-Not upon that line of eork~.
47954:. That is one shut Ollt ; \\ L~:t ;"' : h: ,.. ,
vial corks.
47955. What are they price is from 9d. to ls. and upwards.
47956. A gross ?-A gross.
47957. Take ls. a gross as being the easiest, how many gross of those go to the ponnd ?-Three to
four.
TARIFF.
8R

Robert God win,
cJitin!Wl,
:J6tb April 1883.
WiltlamLedson,
2Gtb Apr!ll883.
± 7958. Let us take four gross that pay now a penny a gross duty ; that makes them I 3d. a gross
instead of a
1£ that were raised to 6d. a pound they would pay three halfpence a gross instead
of a penny, and price would be I3~d.; do you mean to tell me that there is any chemist in the
town that the a gross would make the smallest difference to ?-They made a difference buying
them.
47959. It does not matter buying t;ir is there any man that three a gross would
make a difference to ?-No, it would not make a there, but it would upon the ones.
47960. That is the daffies, as Mr. Montgomery called them ?-Yes.
47961. That is for the cl1emists' eight-ounce bottles ?-Yes.
47962. What are they worth ?-From Is. 6d. to 2s. 6d.
47963. Take 2s. as a medium price, how go to the pound ?-They vary very much.
47964. I have t.'1keu a middle price, you a middle size, how many gross of thoso go to the
pound ?-I could not say.
47965. Two gross ?-Yes, two gross fully.
47966. Rather more, well take it at two. Now you see at the present time they pay 2d. a gross
duty, under the arrangement that has been they would pay 3d. a gross; would the addition of ld.,
making them 2s. Id. instead of 2s., make
difference to any grocer in the city or anywhere else?
-It is a matter of opinion.
47967. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact, it is a matter of pounds, shillings, and
pence. Then chemists use those corks for an eight-ounce bottle of medicine. I venture to say you cannot
buy such a bottle of medicine for less than 2s. or 2s. 6d., and if he puts up a of those bottles, what
difference in the world would it be to him whether he paid 2s. instead of 2s. for the corks he has stuck
into them ?-It is enough for an argument.
47968. No man in the world would ra,ise an argument upon such a thing. What other arguments
have you ?-It would throw a lot of men out of work.
47969. How many men have you at work ?-Four men, two apprentices, and the boys.
47970. How many of those are employed upon the class of corks that would be free of duty if this
idea were carried out ?-I do not think enough to keep the firm going.
47971. Do you cut chemists'· corks ?-No.
47972. What kind of corks do you cut ?-.All kinds.
47973. You do not cut any homreopathic corks ?-Yes, we do.
47974. Those are chemists' corks ?-Yes.
47975. How many of your four men are employetl upon that ?-It would not keep one constantly
47976. What sort do you cut ?-Lemonade corks, ·gin corks, wine every description of corks,
and to sample.
47977. I~emonade corks, what does the duty come to upon a gross of those ?-Fourpence a pound.
47978. I know that, but how many gross go to a pound ?-They take an average of a pound a gross.
47979. So that is a protection of 4cl. upon every gross of corks ?-Yes.
47980. How many gross of those corks do you cut in a year ?-I could not calculate that, for we
only commenced clown at this in December last. I have been working at the trade myself for
twenty years past.
4"7981. How many gross of those lemonacle corks do you cut in a year ?-I cannot telL We cut
with a machine. We have three machines working, and the machine will cut about thirty gross a clay.
47982 . .And if the 4c1. a pound dnty were taken off you could not cut them ?-I should throw
it up.
47983. How many men are employed in this trade altogether ?-I cannot tell how many there are
in the country. I know how I have got.
47984. You want the duty stop as it is ?-I want the duty to stop as it is.
The witness 1oithdrew.
vVilliam Ledson sworn and examined.
47985. By tlte Clzairman.-What are you ?-Cork cutter.
47986. Which of this eontradictory evidence do you agree with; clo you agree with the evidence of
Mr. Goclwin to-clay, or the evidence of another cork cutter the other day who wanted the duty altered to
increase the duty to 6cl. upon some kinus of corks, and let the others in free ·?-I agree with Mr.
God win.
47987. Have you to add to what Mr. Godwin said ?-I would prefer to add 2d:a pound to
make it 6d. upon all classes of goods, because we manufacture all classes.
47988. How many more hands do you suppose would be engaged in this business if the duty were
increased to 6d. ?-.At there are fifteen men employed in cork cutting in the colony, and six boys
and eleven machines. machine is equal to four men, that is altogether about--
47989. Will you answer my question, please. How men de you suppose would be employed
if you get this increase of duty ?-In the course of time our would become established, and we should
have some hundreds of men.
47990. How much of the stuff you import to turn into corks is waste ?-Simply the
47991. What proportion does that bear to the whole of it ?-I could not exactly say. The waste is
made into kamptulicon carpets for offices and places of worship.
47992. You have not answered my question. How much of the cork is wasted ?-I could not say.
47993. Is it half ?-No.
47994. Is it a quarter ?-No, simply the shaving of the cork. You can pare a shaving as thin as a
wafer, and that is the waste.
47995. The cork is round, is it not ?-Yes.
47996. When you round things out of a 1lat surface, there is always a waste but we
do not do that in cork
47997. How do you 11revent it ?-By workmanship. Take it off as thin as a wafer.

14Hl
47998. You cut litt.le corks out of the pieces left in the corners-is that it?-No. Every quarter is Wiiliam:ieiliiqn; 1
cut as square as possible, and is given to men to round or to. a machine. Each machine could turn out 26 t;;"::!:::fts~W.
about thirty-six gross a day. There are fifteen men in the trade and six boys altogether. Weekly we turn
out, or could turn out, 2,916 gross every week, that is by hand labour~ machines and boys.
47999. How many did you turn out last year ?-I am sorry to say I was in the bush, just owing to
this very question. I was working upon the railway now being built for the Queensland border in South
Australia, just owing to the duty not being sufficient to give me employment here. Business has now been
resumed, and I came down employed by Mr. God win. Our trade is prosperous at present.
48000. I understand yom evidence to amount to this, that you want an increase to sixpence ?-That
is it, and then we should soon have numbers. We have written to England now for men, and also
advertised in New South Wales for men if we can get them. Some of our tradesmen have been forced to
work in the bush, because they could not get work at their trade.
The witness withdrew.
Aiijourned to Tuesday next, at Ttvo o'clock.
JA~!ES
TUESDAY, 1sT MAY, 1883.
MIRAllfS,
The Hon. J. IJorimer, M.L.C.,
The Hon. G. Meares, M.IJ.C.,
E. !J. Zox, Esq., M.L.A.,
W. F. Walker, Esq., 1\LL.A.,
Present:
Esq., M.L.A., in the Chair ;
I

1420
BeiLI'1 Burrows, 48023. Those are the things that it is all-important to show. Can you tell the Commission what
~.~~1~ 3 • was the price. I suppose you sell wholesale by the hundredweight, do you not ?-Yes.
48024. What was the price per hundredweight of any particular )ine of confectioneries you manu-,
facture ?-Once I recollect the competition was so keen that we sold at 40s. for boiled goods and 50s. for,
dry, less 10 per cent., and now they are 50s. and 60s., less 10 per cent.
, 48025. That is an increase in price ?-Yes.
48026. I understood you that prices are lower now than they used to be ?-That is many years ago.
48027. Can you tell the Commission what dates those prices refer to, 40s. and 50s., and 50s. and 60s.
It is 40s. for boiled and 50s. for dry to start with, and then it is 50s. for boiled and 60s. for dry at the
present date-is that it?-Yes.
48028. Can you give the dates at which those prices were obtained ?-I could send them. I did not
come prepared with any notes.
, 48029. You say that at the preceding period to either of the times you refer to in those rates there
was a time when the price was higher than either of those two ?-Yes.
48030. At what elate was that ?-They used to be at 10d. a pound at one time.
48031. Now you are going to the price per pound. Give me the price per cwt. ?-In the year
1870 was the day of small things. We used to quote by the pound then.
48032. Reduce those prices to the pound that you have told us ?-60s. is 6:§d., and 50s. is 5d.
48033. When they were lOd. a pound was that before Mr. Francis gave you a penny a pound duty?
-I think it was-yes. ~.
48034. You know the date when you got a penny a pound duty?-We have lots of books.
48035. Do not you remember the date ?-No, in fact I do not do much in that line now, we have
clerks to do onr work.
48036. I understood you to say that the tariff exactly suits your industry ?-Yes, I was home three
or four years ago, and"went over very large factories, and they said all they were waiting for was for us
Australians to take the duty off, and they would soon send it in to us.
48037. Is there any article that you use in your manufacture that you pay duty upon that you desire
a decrease in ?-Yes, I think that lemon peel is one. )V e import lemon peel in a partially prepared state.
It is put into a liquid syrup and drained and packed together and sent out here, the rind of the lemon, and
we pay 2d. a pound duty upon it, and it is only 2cl. a pound on the same article when sent from England
ready for sale. .
48038. Under what heading is that, is it preserved and dried fruits ?-Yes, we try to get all the
lemons we can here and in Sydney, but it is only a trifle compared with the requirements. We are obliged
to send home for it; and after it comes out, we have to wash off the syrup from it, and dry it, and candy
it, and put it into boxes to prepare it for the grocer. We think that the duty ought to be less to encourage
us. See what a lot of labour we are at before it is ready for sale.
48039. What is the value of the article itself without the duty ?-It is about 56s. a cwt., at home,
in that state.
48040. That is 6d. a pound ?-I may say that we went to Mr. A. T. Clark, when he was Commissioner
of Customs, and he agreed to pass it, but it fell through again.
48041. That costs 6d. a pound, and you pay 2d. a pound duty upon it ?-Yes.
48042. And it is one of the raw materials of your industry ?-Yes. It does not pay us, because we
have to sell to the merchants-we have sold as low as 9d. Now 6d. for raw material at home, paying
freight and 2d. a pound duty, brings it up to 8d., and then there is our labour and finding boxes and string.
Of course it comes out manufactured from home by merchants, and we have no chance whatever.
48043. You have to sell at 9d. ?-Different prices-9d., 9:fd., 9~d., and lOd. in small quantities.
48044. How would you dlstinguish between that which comes ready for sale and that which comes
only for you to manipulate after it gets here-if the duty were taken off it would be taken off all round,
would it not ?-No, not upon the manufactured article.
48045~ Are there any technical terms to distinguish them ?-Yes; one is drained peel and the other
is candied peel.
48046. You want the drained peel to . be brought in duty free, so that you may convert it into
candied peel here ?-Yes.
48047. Is there anything else that you use 1n your industry ?-We were going to ask you about
almonds. We pay 2d. a pound upon those-upon shelled almonds. There is a very large consumption of
those articles by biscuit bakers and confectioners.
48048. £1,055 in 1881 was collected upon those ?-This is shelled almonds.
48049. Who use those almonds principally ?-Every confectioner and every biscuit baker and every
cake maker-it is wonderful the quantity of almonds that are used; they come from Adelaide too-we use
all we can get from Adelaide-one ton, two tons, or five tons, as they are to be obtained.
48050. JY/r. Grimwade.-The duty shows fifty tons a year about, or a little more.
48051. By tl;,e Chairman.-What proportion does the 2d. bear to the value of the article ?-The
almonds are used for so many things.
48052. What is the cost of almonds per pound wholesale ?-I suppose about 6d. to 7d. at home.
48053. And in the other colony too ?-No, they are lld. per lb. in Adelaide, and the duty here 2d.
per lb. brings them up to 13cl.; we very seldom buy Adelaide almonds here under 13d.
48054. And the home almonds by the time they are landed cost about lOd. ?-Yes, that is about
the average price. I think that is the price you could get them at now; I think lOd. the cheapest.
48055. Is there anything else that you use that you wish to be admitted free ?-No; I think everything
is just as reasonable as we could expect it.
48056. How about the question of sugar ?-It would not be for us to interfere with that, would
it? I think we are perfectly satisfied with sngar, for we are protected otherwise ..
48057. Have you ever tried the Queensland sugar?-Yes.
48058. Is it suitable for your industry ?-Yes, it is good strong sugar.
48059. If we could make an arrangement with the Queensland people to admit their sugar free,
would it suit your industry ?-Certainly.

1421
48060. Would the public get the benefit of the reduction in the cost of the manufactured
article?-You muy depend the local competition would soon give the public the benefit of it.
48061. What per cent. does the duty upon sugar bear to the cost of sugar. The duty is £3 a
ton, is it not ?-Yes.
48062. What is the value of sugar ?-From £30 to £35 a ton, I think.
48063. It is a little less than 10 per cent. ?-Yes.
48064. If that 10 per cent. upon the cost of sugar were removed by bringing Queensland sugar free
the public would get the advantage of that reduction in cost, would it not ?-I feel sure they would.
48065. By what means ?-That one house would go and offer the goods at a less price, and of
course if one does that we must all do it.
48066. Would you, as a local manufacturer, have any objection to the passing of a clause in the
Customs Act that local manufacturers of all descriptions should be compelled to brand their own goods, so
that the public may know that they are buying colonial things, and not buy colonial things under the
supposition they are imported ?-Certainly, I would approve of that. I think it is a very necessary clause.
48067. Does your trade suffer at all from the prejudice of the public against colonial-made things?
-I do not think so, but I have often known other people's inferior goods put into our tins.
48068. Other colonial people?-Yes, but we do not think that is anything.
48069. Your own industry, that is your own personal industry, speaking for your own branch alone,
does not suffer from a prejudice against colonial-made confectionery ?-No.
48070. It is past that stage ?-Yes.
48071. Did you experience any prejudice at first ?-I do not think so.
48072. Have you anything else you wish to state to the Commission ?-No, I do not think so.
48073. By Mr .. Mclnt,yre.-Will you explain to the Commission about the 50s. for dried, and 40s.
for boiled, less 10 per cent. You say you used to sell at a loss, and now you say it is 50s. and 60s., and yet
you say before the duty you sold for lOd., and now you sell for 6!d. I do not understand that ?-No, it
is the competition and fighting in the trade that brought down the prices, and we were losing money. There
is a gentleman now in the room who lost a considerable amount of money.
48074. That was before the duty was put on ?-No, that was the low prices.
48075. Which are the low prices ?-The 40s. and 50s.
48076. Cannot you give us the date or near it?-Yes, certainly.
48077. What time was it ?-I must go back to the year 1880.
48078. Explain this, your evidence shows that taking the hundredweight rate you are selling clearer
than you were then, and you say now you are selling at 6!ll. a pound ?-Yes, at 60s. a cwt.
48079. And formerly you sold at lOd.?-Yes, before the duty was put on.
48080. I cannot understand that. Will you supply the Commission with the particulars about that?
-Yes, certainly.*
48081. Can you tell us the price of sugar at that time ?-My memory does not furnish me with it.
48082, Will you furnish that too ?-Yes.t
48083. Is not the lemon largely grown in the country ?-In Sydney.
48084. Is it not grown in this country ?-Only a few, quite a trifle.
48085. Lemons are growing here ?-Yes.
48086. And it is a good country fOT them ?-Yes, but they have a good market. It would not pay
to give more than !Os. a case at the outside, and they get £1 by sending them to San Francisco.
48087. I spoke of ours ?-And Sydney.
48088. But ours?-We could use them all in a week.
48089. Is the 2d. no encouragement to persons producing lemons ?-Yes, it is, and that is why I
am surprised more is not grown.
48090. You wish to keep the 2d. a pound upon your lollypops, and you do not wish the lemon
grower to have 2d. a pound upon lemons ?-They cannot produce enough.
48091. Do not almonds grow very largely in Victoria ?-We can never get any. A few in the
gardens; but what are not consumed privately are sold to the small shops.
48092. They are grown very largely in Victoria, smely ?-We should like to buy them if we could.
We never bought any here ; there are none for sale. They are all sold in the shell.
48093. Are you sure it is not prejudice about the Victorian-grown article ?-No. I am a Victorian,
I have been out here thirty years.
48094. And you never tried to use Victorian almonds ?-If we could get them we would.
48095. Why do not you buy them in the shell ?-They would not pay. There is a very great
demand here for almonds in the shell.
48096. Do not you think that the 2d. a pound, which applies to almonds in the shell as well as
almonds shelled, is an encouragement to the continuance of the production of that article ?-But they do
not produce them. It is like the lemons, we cannot get lemons.
48097. But they do grow them largely. Every other garden has its almond trees in it ?-Yes; I
have four or five, but my children eat them all.
48098. Then the principle of protection does not apply to this at all. You want your raw material
free, but your raw material is other people's actual product. Why should not they have the same
encouragement as you have, 2d. a pound. They have not come up to your point yet, but by-and-by they
may probably. You want this 2d. a pound, it is useful to you, is it not ?-Certainly.
48099. And you would not be selfish enough to wish it taken off fruit ?-It would enable
confectioners and others to make their articles cheaper.
48100. But you would take away from the producer of the article that protection that you yourself
largely want. Now how did you get along in lmsiness before the duty was imposed at all ?-Used to work
like a nigger from fou; o'clock in the morning to nine o'clock at night.
48101-2. And now you go about like a gentleman, doing nothing, and let a hired workina-man
do your work ?-But it gives them plenty to do.
"'
-~ On revising his evidence the witness ad,led that ulocal competition was greater, and the increase in local manufacturer was ve,J.'y great after the
duty was put on.,
t On revising his evldence the witness added that the price w•s from £30 to £40.
Henry Burrows,
continued,
lst M•y 1883.

Henry Burrows, 48103. Now, how did you on before ?-I am very glad of the position I am in; but I think
laf~~;"i:s~ it is through my industry, and living; a proper lif~, and going on c~refully: . . , .
48104. Then it is not the State that has brought you mto this po:ntwn ?-fhe protectiOn has
helped us. I started in business in 1856.
48105. How did you on under the penny duty ?-Not much better.
48106. Then you require the 2d. absolutely to continue ?-We never made any headway. We
were making a living and paying everybody, it is true, before the tariff.
41H07. Are you sufficiently established now; do you think you could compete with the imported
article fairly now ?-No, I do not think we could. Sugar that we are paying £36 for now, I think, is about
£31 in England.
48108. If a penny was taken off this duty, would it not be sufficient protection for you ?-Ko, I think
not.
, 48109. Do you think the imported article would beat you then ?-No ; I was over some very large
establishments in England, where they keep a staff of engineers and other men to make goods, and they buy
everything :first-hand in large quantities, and they can make very much cheaper than we.
48110. Have you not got all those appliances here ?-Not upon the same scale.
48111. Could not you get them ?-I may not be rich enough to get them.
48112. What is the price here in bond of the same article that you sell for 6d. ?-I do not know.
48113. You have no idea of the price of the imported article, then; for aught you know, you might be
able to compete with the imported article ?-I do not think so.
48114. You have no idea of the price, but we can measure the quantity imported. The total duty
upon confections, sweetmeats, succades, and so on, last year was only £3,280 ?-We have not imported much
of that sort.
48115. With rega~·d to the changing of the tins that the Chairman d1·ew your attention to, the
atte]llpt to sell yours for inferior ; does that apply to the tntdesmen mostly in the colony ?-No, only small
shops. . . ·
48116. What kind of arLicle do they put into your tins ?-I do not think it is done with any intention
to deceive, b11t if they buy from a house, when they are sold they have the tins filled np.
48117. Then the article they put in may be equal to your own ?-It may be.
48118. Is the of the confections, &c., pretty equal all through the trade ?-I think so.
48119. You a tariff amongst yourselves ?-I think so.
48120. You have a certain fixed price for all?-Yes; they do not act exactly straight.
48121. Then if a competitor comes in and sells at a penny a pound cheaper you all come down to
that price too ?-Obliged to.
48122. And get' along pretty well still ?-I do not know about that.
48123. By the Hon. Mr. Lorimer.-Were you in England recently ?-I was there in 1877.
48124. Do not you know the English manufacturer's price of the conesponding material to what you
sell at 60s. ?-I really forget, we have the prices. .
48125. You could let us know what the price is ?-I could let you know, I dare say we have circulars
at our office.
48126, Do you know the cost of importing confectionery from England, how much per cwt. or how
much per lb. it would be, exclusive of duty, freight, and ordinary charges ?-Really I could not tell you. I
do not bear those things in mind.
48127. Then cannot you tell us whether you could do vrith a smaller duty than 2d. a pound, would
not 1d. a pound be sufficient protection now that the industry is established ?-I do not think so.
48128. Suppose the duties were taken off your raw material, lemon peel, almonds, and sugar ?-A
penny a pound would do then.
48129. It would be sufficient then ?-I think so.
48130. What sugar do you use chiefly?-We use Mauritius and Queensland, and the company's
sugar, and crushed sugar imported.
48131. Cannot Mauritius sugar be laid down in Melbourne cheaper than in London ?-They do not
use much of that in London, I think it is mostly loaf. ·
48132. The freight from Mauritius to Melbourne must be less than the freight from Mauritius to
London, and Queenslaml sugar ?-That sort of sugar is used for goods that do not come out from England ;
boiled sugars do not come from England, they will not keep, it is only the best dried goods.
48133. There is no duty upon sugar in England ?~No.
48134. Then if there was no duty here could not you get it cheaper than in London ?-I do not
think so.
48135. Is it not a fact that they ean produce it cheaper in Queensland than they can in Fiji and the
Mauritius ?-Not the high elass sugars I think. I think every one has all this information in their offices,
that is all I can sav.
48136. Th~ sugar planters in Queensland claim to be able to produce cheaper than the Mauritius?
-[No ans'wer.J
48137. By lvlr. Zox.-Are you an exporter of lollies ?-~o, not lollies.
48138. Do you to any of the colonies any of your manufactured lollies?-Yes.
48139. To any ?-Not so much now. We used to do a large business in New Zealand.
Since we had a drawback of £3 a ton the busine.~s inCI·eased to some extent, but so manv have failed in
New Zealand that that trade is almost done away with. -
48140. Is the drawback (lone away with now ?-No.
48141. By getting a drawback upon the export of your lollies can you compete with the English
market in the other colonies ?-Not quite.
481·12. What proportion does your export trade bear to the trade you do in Victoria?-That I should
have to see our books to say. · · · ,
48143. Do you send to Sydney?-Very few, and that is fancy goods, crystallized fruits and faney
best goods, because they sell as cheap in Sydney as we do. We have to pay a duty for all we send into
Sydney. .
48144. Are there any manufacturers iu your line of bnsinepS in Sydney?-res, ~iqdell Brotberl5 tl>r\3 .
.p.~~rl,r all large afl Of!rselves. ' ' ·
14~2

1423
48145 . .Are they aule to compete there with the English lollies ?-I cannot answer for them.
48146. Is there any duty ?-I think 1~d.
48147. By llfr. Grimwade.-What is the duty upon sugar in New South Wales ?-Five shillings, I
think.
48148. By Mr. Zox.-Is there a factory here for the making of this canuied lemon peel ?-No.
48149. Mr. Lorimer put the question to you, suppose all the duties were taken off articles that you
require in your business, do yon think then that you would be enabled to compete with the English article ?
-.And the 2cl. a pound taken off?
48150. Twopence a pound off the peel, so much off the almonds, and £3 a ton off sugar, would you
then say you woura be in as good a position as if you had the duty now imposed upon the manufactmed
article ?-I think so, if the duty upon sugar was taken off.
48151. You said just now that in the event of some of those duties being abrogated that the public
would get the benefit of it ?--Yes.
48152. You would be able to sell cheaper ?-Yes.
48153. Will you tell the Commission, if you please, supposing you manufaetnrecl a ton of sugar into
lollies, how many lollies that ton of sugar would produce ?-.A ton of lollies, nearly.
48154. Do you know how mneh a pound (supposing the £3 duty was taken off sugar) that would be
upon the article itself ?-I am' not scholar enough to say.
48155. I will tell you what i.t is. It is about a farthing and a half per pound. Now, how would the
public get the benefit of it, r,upposing the £3 duty were taken off-that is, the general public who buy in
ounces or three-quarters of a pound or a pound-if the reduction were only one farthing and a half a pound?
-When I said the public, I meant tile storekeeper.
48156. Then, as far as you are concerned, the manufacturer and the storekeeper only get the benefit?
-Many of the little shops give away all the lollies they buy. It is nothing to us what they do with them
after they pay us.
48157. Then, in fact, the benefit the general public would get woulcl be infinitesimally small ?-It
would certainly.
48158. By the Chairman.-Is there anything further you wish to add ?-No.
Tl.e witness ~oitl.drew.
Robert Black sworn and examined.
llenry Burrows,
continued,
1st .May 1883.
48159. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-I am a confectioner. Robert Black,
48160. Wholesale confectioner ?-Wholesale confectioner. lstli:IaylB83,
48161. Confectioneq manufacturer ?-l\fanufacturer.
48162. Where is your manufactory? -Victoria street, Hotham.
48163. How many hands do you employ ?-:Fifteen only; we are small.
48164. When did you start ?-Exactly ten years ago.
48165. How many hands had you t11en ?-One or two, my partner and myself, with the assistance of
a youth.
48166. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Burrows ?-Yes.
48167. Do you agree with that evidence ?-Quite, excepting in this matter-a question put to him
about prices. He said 50s. and 60s. were the prices now, and some time ago 40s. and 50s., and it was asked
whether the tariff affected that, but that was while we had a duty of 2d. a pound. It was only local competition
and folly that brought it down to those prices ; but the prices before the duty was put on were very
much higher than 50s. or 60s. and 40s. or 50s.
48168. By Jlfr. Zox.-He saidlO~d. ?-Quite so ; this is a point I want to explain. It was not the
tariff that made the differ.ence in the price between the 40s. and 50s. and 50s. and 60s., but local competition.
The price at the time when the lollies were free of duty was very mnch higher than 50s. or 60s., possibly 9d.,
10d., and lid. a pound.
48169. By tlte Cltai1•man.-Before the 2d. duty was put on ?-Before the 2d. duty was put on; the
price is absolutely cheaper since the duty has been put on than it was before this duty.
•!8170. That is what Mr. Burrows started by saying ?-Quite so, but I think the evidence was misconceived.
48171. .About this 9d., l Od., and lld. a pound, when those prices ranged, was that during the time
the 1 d. duty was in operation ?-Yes, and before there was any duty at all. I may say that I was a confectioner
before this time, a good many years before that. .At that time we got 1s. a pmmd for lollies, and
we hall no duty upon lollies then.
48172. What was the effect of putting on the lc1. a pound which the Franeis Ministry gave
you ?-I was not in business at that time.
48173. You left it for a time?-Yes, I left it. Twenty-five years ago I was in the trade. At that
time there was no duty. Between that date and the time that this 1d. duty was put on, I was out of
business. I returned to business since then, and there has been a duty of 2d. a pound upon lollies ever
since I have been in business the second time.
48174. So you had no experience of the prices obtained while the Id. a pound duty was in
operation ?-None.
48175. You are only speaking now of the prices previous to any duty at all, and the prices during
the 2d. a pound tariff?-That is all.
48176. And we understand you to say that the competition between the local producers shortly after
the 2d. was put on had the effect of bringing clown the prices to 40s. and 50s. respectively ?-No, I wouhl
say to 50s, and 60s., it was folly that brought them clown to 40s. and 50s., a thing outside the tariff.
48177. It was competition at any rate ?-Competition, but outside the tariff-ill will, unfriendliness,'
48178. And since then the manufacturers have returned to the bther prices?-Yes.
48179. By Mr . .Llfcintyre.-Had a knock out ?-No; but we have wisely seen it was folly to sell
at any prices.
48180. I want to know what you mean by wisely ?-I think that it was very unwise to sell at 5s, a
cwt. less than you could produce it, simply because you were on lmfriendly terms with your neighbours.

Robert Block,
. ,

1425
48210. How many hours do they work for thttt ? -About ten hours.
48211. Ten hours a dav ?-Yes.
48212. And the lads b~gin at 7s a week, do I undcrsttmd you to say ?-Yes, generally is. or Ss.,
according to what they are and their size. ·
48213. And you increase them yearly till they reach the age of journeymen ?-Yes.
48214. What proportion of those 335 hands will be lads under eighteen ?-About lOO.
48215. Do you employ any femalAs at all ?-Yes.
48216. How many of those ?-About 70.
48217. A uy .of those under eighteen?-Yes.
48218. Ho.w many do you think ?-A large majority,
48219. Seventy females, most of whom are under eighteen?-Yes.
48220. What do they earn ?-Various wages from 7s. to Ss. up to £1.
48221. And how many hours do they work-the same as the males ?-Yes, a little shorter. Perhaps
they commence five minutes later and leave five minutes earlier; a little shorter. The men do not work exactly
ten hours.
48222. Do you find any difficulty in getting employes ?-Yes, we could do with more of the right
sort.
48223. vVhatdo you mean by the "right sort'' ?-Respectable and good, that are desirous of working
and getting on.
48224. Plenty to be got who are not of that description ?-Yes there are too many.
48225. In what way has the tariff affected your industry ?-It has not affected it at all.
48226. Neither one way nor the other ?-As far as the duty on biscuits goes it has not affected us.
As far as the tariff put duty upon other articles that we use-our machinery and so forth-it has very much
injured us. As for the duty of 2d. a pound on biscuits it is inoperative. If you say it neither does
good nor harm, it does no good ; it does harm possibly, and is a very bad example to the other colonies
where we would like to have intercolonial free-trade.
48227. There are very few biscuits imported now ?-No, now we are very large exporters.
48228. But there was a large quantity imported when you began, was not there ?-No.
When you say "began " tlo you metm when the duty was :first put on. When we started twenty-nine
years ago there was a large amount of biscuits imported prior to that, and it continued a good while, but
when a duty of 2d. a pound was put upon biscuits, perhaps that year and the year prior a large
quantity of useless ship stores were brought on shore for pigs and dogs, and for feeding purposes, and when
the 2d. a p01md was imposed it entirely stopped that. The biscuits were sent away and ceased to land.
48229. Do I understand you to say that the class of biscuit imported before the duty was imposed
was not the class of biscuit that competed with you at all : it was a class of ship biscuit landed for clogs
and pigs ?-Yes, nine-tenths of the biscuits landed for a year before the duty were not for human consumption
at all.
48230. Then ab.,ut the time when it was a penny a. pound-it was not made 2d. a pound all at
once ?-Yes, I think it was.
48231. No, not at all ?-I do not know that there was much difference between the penny and 2d.;
biscuits would not come in any way.
48232. I am not speaking of what they would do now, but what it was when you commenced. I
can understand that now you have reached a stage when the duty is a matter of indifference, but was that
always so. How many hands did you employ before there was a duty at all ?-We commenced with very
few and gradually worked on,
48233. How many hands did you begin with twenty-nine years ago ?-I commenced with my own.
'18234. Do you know when the duty was first imposed-a penny a pound ?-I think it was 1865. I
would not speak positively, if you ha:ve the dates there.
48235. Yes, I have the dates here. In 1867 the duty was put on. After tl1at duty of a penny a
pound was put on can you give the Commission any information as to the rate at which your business
increased ?-No, I do not know. The business has generally increased about ten hands yearly, pretty
steadily, but the business has very much increased during the last two or three years. The Sydney Exhibition
and our own Exhibition gave a wonderful impetus to our trade.
48236. Do you know how long the penny a pound duty remained before you got the additional
penny ?-I think it might be perhaps four years.
48237. Do you advocate the abolition of the 2d. a pound on biscuits ?-Yes, it is no good.
Of course~ we would like to see the duties tabm off in other colonies too, to use ours as a lever, if we could,
to take theirs off too. It is no good. It is only setting up a bad example and doing us no good, because
we have the credit of getting protection which does us no good, and everything we use and consmne is
heavily taxed, which makes the amount of dnties we pay nearly as much as our wages.
48238. Will you enumerate the articles upon which you pay duties, and upon which you wish to
have the duties removed ?-Yes.
48239. What are the first ?-Sugar. Of course we would like to have the duty o:ff sugar. Of
course a very large amount of flour and wheat is grown here. Perhaps it might not always be in the event
of a scarcity--
48240. But you do not want the duty off wheat ?-Yes, wheat and flour.
48241. Is not the duty inoperative the same as in youi: own article of biscuits ?-I was just coming
to that-though it is upon foreign :fiour, there is an article which we -very much use for ship bread called
sharps or pollard which is very cheap in Adelaide, and particularly so in New Zealand, which is met here
with a duty of £2 a ton.
48242. _1\.r·e there no sharps made here from our own grown wheat?-Yes, there are.
48243. Is not that large enough to supply your requirements ?-Yes, as far as being large enough,
but there is a large demand for those things for other purposes. We l!oulcl buy sharps in'Nevr Zealand and
bring them here profitably but for the duty, which puts about 50 per cent. upon their cost.
48244. Will you explain to the Commission how it is that this duty upon wheat or the primary production
of wheat is operative, and you say it is not in the case of biscuits which are exactly on the same
footing.
TARIFF.
You have both overtalcen the supply and there is a large export?-There is not a large export of
8 S
T. Swallow,
continued,
1st ::.l!'y 1883.

T.Swallow,
contintwd,
lst May 1883.
1426
sharps and pollard. But for the duty we could use very much cheaper sharps than we now use. If our
factory was in Sydney, where the article goes in from New Zealand free--
4824,5. ·what is the next article ?-The article of driecl fruits-currants, sultana raisins; all kinds
of peels. They are all 2d. a pound.
48246. Those are evidently revenue duties and are not put on for protective' purposes at all, and to
remove them would make a great hole in the revenue. £56,000 was collected last year. I suppose currants·
is the article you use most ?-Yes, and sultanas of all kinds and peels, and likewise the almonds.
48247. Do you use the peel without being candied ?-Yes, we use it drained.
48248. Dried fruits you want the duty off, what else ?-Almonds, all kinJs of peels, cit.ron, lemon,
and orange peel.
48249. You go beyond the previous witnesses then. They only want the duty off peel in a certain
state?-We import it in the drained state.
48250. And candy it yourself ?-No, we use it as it is.
48251. So if the duty is taken off drained peel it would answer your purpose ?-Yes, as far as our
own trade goes.
48252. What else ?-We commenced with flour and sugar. Butter is another very important thing.
Butter is scarce and clear. It is middling cheap in New Zealand. We have to import, and did last year
and every year import a good deal upon which we pay a duty of 2d. a pound. Our articles are particularly
fortunate or unfortunate in being protected by duty.
48253. Is not there an ample supply of colonial butter ?-No, butter is scarce and dear.
48254. Does that exhaust the list ?-There is machinery. The tariff upon machinery seems to be
very unfair. Some trades have to pay and others do not. Ours is not one of the protected trades, and we
pay 25 per cent. with the 10 per cent. added.
48255. What do you mean by yours not being a protected trade ?-The woollen makers, the paper
makers, and other trades get their machinery in free.
48256. Do you use patent machinery ?-Some might be patented and some not.
48257. Do you make a point of that or is it a matter of not much importance to you ?-It is a thing
of importance ; for of course we do not wish to injure other trades, and we would be quite willing that, in
importing machinery, experts should examine and should say whether that class of machinery was
manufactured here or could be, and if so, impose a duty, and if not, then we consider it unjust.
48258. What do you reckon to be your annual expenditure upon the purchase of machinery-new
plant ?-It is very heavy, but I could not go over it. We are always adding and improving. We have to
get new cutters for biscuits all the time, as they are brought out in other countries.
48259. Are you getting any of it made here?-We have a workshop upon our premises. We have
six or seven engineers, still we import a very great deal of machinery.
48260. You do an export trade, do not you ?-Yes.
48261. To all the neighbouring colonies?-Yes.
48262. Do you find you can compete with English goods in the neighbouring markets ?-Yes.
48263. Do you account for that partially from the increased cost of bringing things a long distance
from home?-Yes, and assisted by the perishable nature of the article that we deal in.
48264. The perishable nature of the article induces the purchaser to buy from the near market
instead of a more distant one ?-Yes.
48265. And you are satisfied that, as far as your own industry is concerned, the removal of the 2d.
a pound duty upon the article you manufacture would not affect you ?-No, not a bit. In fact the biscuit
bakers of Melbomne have more than once asked the Chief Secretaries and Premiers to take the duty off.
We asked Mr. Service and asked Mr. Berry.
48266. In the event of those duties being removed upon the articles you use in your industry, would
the general public, that is, the ultimate constrmers of the articles, not the intermediate storekeepers, reap
the benefit. For instance, if the duties were taken off sugar for all the dried fruit, would the reduction of
the cost of your goods be so great that the ultimate consumer would get the benefit?-Yes.
48267. Or would it be simply the intermediate distributer, the shopkeeper, as Mr. Burrows ~aid?­
No, it would be a tangible reduction, possibly of 10 or 12 per cent.
48268. By Mr. Walker.-What is the amount of duties you pay, have you ever calculated what you
pay altogether ?-I have not lately, but upon the fruit, for instance, we pay a great deal, we use an immense
quantity of fruit.
48269. Of currants ?-If I had known I could have given you every figure.
48270. You said, in answer to the Chairman, that you spend as much in duties as your wage list
amounted to?-Yes.
48271. Is that a fact ?-I said about as much.
48272. What is about your wage list a year ?-Nearly £500 a week.
48273. Did you ever try to manufacture your articles in bond ?-No.
48274. Did ever you make any application to the Customs ?-No.
48275. Is not that practicable ?-We have frequently thought of the matter and talked it over, and
we thought it really was not worth while, with bonds and watchers, and our machinery wanting to be in
general use, it seemed to be hardly possible to separate it and have one portion working in one place alone.
48276. You are aware that numbers of industries are carried on in bond under the supervision of the
Customs ?-Yes.
48277. You see the difficulty is that most of those duties are revenue duties ?-Yes.
48278. And if Parliament wanted to relieve your particular industry that would sacrifice the whole
duty ?-Yes.
48279. You do not think it is practicable to manufacture in bond ?-I am afraid not.
48280. Is the machinery you use patented ?-Some might be and some not. We buy from various
makers, English makers. With regard to cutters, I think Vickers' cutters are not patented, but they have
special factories to make them, and they could not be made here.
48281. Have you tried to get those cutters that you refer to made here ?-It would be hardly
:_possible.
48282. Have you tried to get them made here ?-No.

1427
48283. What prevented you from trying, was it a foregone conclusion that they could not be made?-­
If we could not get them except out of the country, we would not go out of our own shops, because if we
sent to a man outside to make for us, he would make for our opponents. much cheaper than for us, having
made the patterns at our cost.
48284. Do I understand you that you cannot get sufficient pollard in Melbourne of Melbourne
manufacture ?-I mean that pollard is much cheaper in New Zealand than in Melbourne.
48285. Is there sufficient here for your supply ?-Yes, there is, and if there were ten times as much,
it would be all used one way or other, for it is used for all sorts of purposes, feeding and so on.
48286. Then you want the duty off so as to lower the price ?-Yes, I want to buy my raw material
in the cheapest market.
48287. And you consider that your industry, employing such an immense number of hands, is very
heavily handicapped by these duties ?-Yes, as we get no advantage.
this chair said he got an advantage from the tariff ; we do not.
The witness withdrew.
Now the last gentleman who sat in
J oseph Henry Walker sworn and examined.
48288. By the ChaiTrnan.-What are you ?-Biscuit manufacturer.
48289. Where is your factory ?-Bourke-street west.
48290. How many hands have you got employed ?-Forty-five in the biscuits, and fifty in jam.
48291. We will take the biscuits now alone. How long have you been established ?-Seven years.
48292. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Swallow~do you agree with it ?-Entirely. The only
point I wish to mention is about the pollard. Our general goods being superior to the other colonies, we are
doing a large trade with the other colonies, excepting in ship bread, for this very reason that we cannot
turn out the ship bread anything near the price the Sydney factories can, and I do not think.Mr. Swallow
laid suffieient stress upon that fact about the supply. We cannot get the sharps here. The mills do
their work better here and there are fewer sharps. There are harclly any sharps here. vVe have to take
fine flour to make common ship bread or we cannot make it at all. I am very often in Sydney and I cannot
get orders there on account of the price.
48293. Then if sharps were admitted free you would be satisfied ?-We should be upon a level then
and could compete with any colony.
48294. You do not want flour free, there is plenty of flour here?-Yes.
48295. You entirely agree with Mr. Swallow that the removal of the 2d. a pound duty upon biscuits
would not interfere with your industry ?-Not in the slightest.
48296. By 11fr. Zox.-If the sharps were to be admitted free into the country, would it increase
your business ?-Yes. . .
48297. Have you any idea to what extent it would increase the trade of the whole colony ?-It is
such a growing business, we could not answer the question. \V e should double and treble and so on.
48298. Would it enable you to employ more hands in your factory ?-Yes.
48299. To what extent do you think ?-I suppose a sixth of our whole time is taken up with ship
bread. I think the ship bread trade might easily be trebled.
48300. You are satisfied that if that article were imported here without duty you could successfully
compete with Great Britain and also the other Australian colonies?-Yes.
The witness withdTew.
Thomas Bibby Guest sworn and examined.
48301. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-Biscuit baker.
48302. Where is your factory ?-William-street.
48303. How many years has it been. established ?-Twenty-seven.
48304. How many hands are you employing ?-About ninety.
48305. All at biscuit making ?-Yes.
48306. How many hands had you when you commenced ?-About half-a-dozen.
48307. Do you do an export trade ?-Very little.
48308. Do you agree with the evidence of Mr, Swallow in relation to the article of sharps ?-I do
thoroughly.
48309. You wish to supplement what he said in regard to another matter-what is it ?-In regard
to machinery, there are manufacturers of biscuit machinery at home who make this business a speciality,
and as the machinists here cannot make that machinery, I do not think we ought to pay the large duty
levied upon it,
48310. When you say they cannot make them here, what do you mean by "cannot," that they have
not the appliances, or that the machinery is patent and they must not touch it ?-Perhaps both. They begin
by being a patent at home, but the patent runs out. As an instance, I have a machine in my place that cost
in Liverpool £290. I asked an engineer one day what he would make one for. " Well,'' he said, " I would
not make the patterns for £500." ''Well," I said, "what would the machine come to?" "Oh ! goodness
knows, I do not," was his reply ; but I can easily · 1mderstand that the first machine would cost
a manufacturer perhaps a couple of thousand poimds, but having a number selling all over the world he
could afford to sell his first machine for £300. A man could not make them here. I have got one of the
maimfacturer's lists in my works if you would like to see it-[producing and handing in a papeT ].
Those are cutting machines and other machines. There are machines there running up to £7 50 a piece.
48311. Patent travelling ovens, are those the sort of ovens you use ?-Those are the sort I use.
48312. Then we understand you to endorse the evidence o£ previous witnesses, that special machinery
used in your trade, and for which there is very little demand in the, colony, and that ·could not be made
here at a reasonable price, should be admitted free ?-Yes, it would not possibly be worth the while of any
machinist here to make them.
48313. How long would a machine last you ?-Possibly five or six years, ancl then it would be cheaper
to have a new one than to have it renovated.
48314. What would be the total duty upon this machine ?-27! per cent. re the tariff as at
present.
T, Swallow,
contimted,
lat Ma.y 1888,
J. EL Walker,
lst May 1883.
T.B. Guest,
lst May 188i.f,

T. B. Guest,
continUR.d.
lst May 1883.
1428
48315. And that would last five years you say ?-Five or six: years probably.
48316. That is £15 a year the duty would copt you upon that ?-That is only on one machine.
48317. About what is the value of your phmt you have imported and p:ctid dutyupun ?-The plant
at present is about £6,000 or £7,000.
48318. Has it all been imported?-Whatever I can get made here I do.
48319. Has any part of this £7,000 worth been made here ?-I think it is about £6,500-the total
cost.
4B320. Has any part of that been made here ?-Yes, whatever we coulcl get made here.
48321. What proportion of that do you think-£2,000 ?-I do not know ; it would be only shafting
and driving pulleys, and hangers and fix:ings of that sort.
48322. £5,000 you may say has been imported ?-Yes.
48323. Can you inform the Commission what is the value of yom output for twelve months ?­
I suppose about £30,000 a year.
48324. By the Hon. 1Wr. Lorimer.-Cculd you describe the machinery in such a way as to prevent
any frauds upon the Custom-house, so that the Customs might pass it in free of duty, without risk of being
defrauded. Is biscuit machinery known by any particular name ?-I do not see how, because those
machines have originally been patents, but the patent runs out, and they cannot call them any longer patent.
They are c~lled patent machines in that catalogue.
48325. You are aware that a great deal of machinery is manufactured here. You tell us that the
machinery imported by biscuit makers is not made here. Cannot you describe it so that it could be easily
distinguished from other machinery that is made here ?-There might be a difficulty there, because a man
might say "I could make a biscuit-cutting machine," but a biscuit cutting machine may be a very simple
machine that could be made, but when you get a complicated machine that cuts the biscuits, separates
the dough from the biscuits and puts them upon the tray, and does all this automatically, it is a superior
machine. ·
48326. Do you think you biscuit manufacturers could lay your heads together and send us any list
of special articles that ought to be admitted free of duty ?-I think so.
48327. Will you try and do it and send us in a list ?-Yes.
48328. By Mr. Munro.-When those things came from England, and were examined at the
Customs, how would you decide whether they came in within the list that you drew up, for every one
would come and say-" This is a patent machine," it could be pointed out with certain specialities it ought
to come under that heading ?-I do not know how the woollen manufacturers ha\'e to describe theirs, but if
we make affidavit that they are for manufacturing biscuits, either for cutting biscuits, mixing the dough,
or for passing them through the furnace by machinery, we could make affidavits to that effect, and show the
price lists and invoice.
48329. By the Chairman.-! understand you have undertaken to endeavour to frame a list, so that
the Customs can distinguish between your machinery and other machinery?-Yes.
48330. If you will send that in we will consider it.
At the request of Mr. Black, the Chairman stated that the Commission would be very glad to
receive the same information from the confectioners.
The witness withdrew.
John Oonlan,
lst ll:lay 1883.
John Conlan sworn and examined.
48331. By the Chairman.-What are you ?--Journeyman baker.
48332. How many years have you been a journeyman baker ?-Thirty-three years.
48333. Where were you apprenticed ?-In the city of Dublin.
48334. How long have you been in the colony ?-I am in this colony about fifteen years, I am going
on nineteen years altogether.
48335. How many years have you followed your trade as a journeyman baker in this colony ?­
Fifteen years.
48336. For whom are you working at the present time ?-Mr. Knight, in Canning-street, Carlton.
48337. You are here to-day as one o1 the three repre8entatives from the Operative Bakers' Society,
I believe ?-Yes.
48338. How many members does that society contain ?-Over 300, I do not know the exa

'1429
Frederick Kennon sworn and examined.
F. Kennon,
1st lll~y 1,883.
48350. B.l/ tlte Clwirman.-What are you ?-I am a baker, a general baker all round. ·
48351. ~tlnd a biscuit bahr ?-A biscuit baker also. I have heard Mr. Swallow's evidence, and I
heard Mr. Guest's evidence, and I quite coincide with them that the dutv should be taken off biscuits and
Qff sugar, and we could compete with any imported goods out, and I shot{lcllike to see some English goods
come out, and show us the latest designs to make those biscuits.
48352. By Mr. Walker.-So that you could copy them ?-So that I could copy them. ·
48353. By the Chairman.-You ~were going to tell the Commission the way in which the tariff
affected yon as an operative biscuit baker r:--rn the first place, Mr. Swallow--
. 48354. Never mind about Mr. Swallow ?-The simple thing any way, I thlnk the whole tariff
upon biscuits, sugar, and everything should be swept away.
48355. Does the tariff upon biscuits affect you as an operative baker, does it make your wages any
less or any more ?-I should think I could do more business i£ the tariff were taken away. ·
48356. You are under the impression that if the duty were removed from biscuits there would be
more work for operative biscuit bakers ?-Yes.
48357. Notwithstanding that biscuits would be imported if the duty were off ?-I think the colonials
could beat any imported, but we want to see all the new designs. I speak as a biscuit baker.
48358. Have you anything further to add to that ?-Nothing further to add.
The witness withdrew.
PRESERVED MILK.
Charles George Turner sworn and examined.
48359. By the Chairman.-You are here as the representative of what company?-The Heidelberg
Cheese and Condensed Milk Company.
48360. When was this company formed ?-About eighteen months ago.
48361. How many hands are you employing?-When we are working fully we employ about thirty
altogether.
48362. How many of those are engaged at the condensed milk business ?-About fifteen to eighteen.
That is directly employed, of course a good many are indirectly employed, a good many making tins and
cases, and so on, and in carting backwards and forwards to the factory.
48363. In relation to the cheese part of your business, does the tariff interfere with you, or help you
in any way ?-The tariff has helped the cheese industry, inasmuch as it has enabled us to get this market,
and we can now command foreign markets. The bulk of the cheese we make is exported, very little
comes into this market at all, it is principally sent to Queensland.
48364. What duty do you pay upon it when it gets to Queensland ?-I think 2d. a pound, I am not
sure of it.
You see we do not pay the duty, we sell the cheE>se to the Queensland people.
48365 . .And they have to pay the duty upon it ?-I presume so, if there is a duty there.
48366. It i8 2d. a pound in Queensland ?-Ye~.
48367. Do you send any toW estern Australia ?-I do not think we have done.
48368. Do you send any to New Zealand ?-No, Kew Zealand is our chief competitor in Queensland.
She produces a large quantity of cheese.
48369. Do you wish to say anything about the duty on cheese ?-No.
48370. Are you satisfied with it as it is?-We are quite satisfied with it.
48371. If the duty upon cheese were removed, what would be its effect on you ?-I do not think it
would have any effeet. It would no.t do us any harm, but we are indepenclent of the duty. The duty made
the cheese trade, but we are now independent of the duty, and if the duty were removed we should not
suffer by it.
48372. Are not you under the impression that the New Zealand cheese would compete with you in
this market, as well as in the Queensland market, if the duty were removed ?-It might to some extent,
but not to any great extent. Yo.u see we can meet them in the Queensland market where we are upon
equal terms, we can hold our own there, and sell upon equal terms. .
48373. Which has the advantage in distance of carriage, you or New Zealand ?-It is about the
same. They ship most of theirs by way of Sydney, and the distance is about the same.
4"8374. What else do you make beside condensed milk and cheese ?-Nothing else, our trade is
confined to those two. We intend to go into the butter trade, but have not done so as yet.
48375. In relation to the condensed milk, what do you ask the Commission for in relation to that?
-We commenced about twelve months ago to make condensed milk. We sent to America and got the
best machinery we eould get, which cost £2,272, and we got the best man we could, at a very large salary,
to work the business. We put up a place at Yarra Flats, and it cost us from first to last about £5,000.
Upon the machinery, which cost us £2,272, we paid duty to the amount of £256 9s. 8d. We have got
it in working 0rder now, and we are able, if >Ye were working fully, to put through the machinery 2,000
gallons of milk per day. We could condense that quantity if we were able to get rid of the stuff. That
is equal to bet.ween 5,000 and 6,000 tins of milk per working clay.
48376. What are you condensing now?-Nothing at all at present. We worked for some time.
We did not work up to our full capacity, but pretty near it, and our stock accumulated, and we had to stay
our hands, because we could not sell it fast enough. We have to compete with the imported artiele.
48377. Is there a demand for it at all ?-Yes.
48378. But not fast enough to take off your stock as fast as you make it ?-That is how it is.
48379. Could not you have met that by a reduction in the price of the raw material, the milk?-
No, you see the price of milk is regulated by the cheese. We cannot offer them less than the price it is
worth for cheese-making, or other people get it. I was going to explain why we have not worked up to
our full quantity. There is an air of uncertainty about it. In order to keep us going we must have a
thousand cows fully going, and the farmers will not do that unless they see the thing established upon a
C. G. Turner,
lst May 1883.

(l. G. Tlll'D.er,
.~
bt MA7l88ll.
1430
certain basis. They will not put the cows there for fear we should not be able to sell our product, and then
we could not take the milk. One man is ready to put on200 cows if we would take the milk for two years.
48380. Surely you would not want a thousand cows to give 2,000 gallons a day ?-I do not know,
that is what the manager tells me we shall want upon the average.
48381. What duty do you ask for?-In condensing the milk a quantity of sugar is used. If
we work up to the full capacity we should use something like 250 tons sugar per annilln, upon which
the duty is £3 a ton. That makes £750 a year in duty upon sugar alone.
48382.' If we removed the duty upon sugar would not that answer the same purpose as putting on
the duty upon milk ?-I do not know, I should prefer a duty upon the milk.
48383. Do you use Queensland sugar ?-No, the best Mauritius.
48384. If we could come to an arrangement with the Queensland Government to let in their sugar
free on condition they let in the articles we are making ?-I do not know that we have used any Queensland
sugar. It may have been used, but I do not know it.
4S385. What duty do you ask upon the milk ?-I think 2d. a pound.
48386. Is this a pound tin-[ taking up a sample] ?-Yes, that is a pound tin.
4S387. What is the retail price of a pound tin of the imported article ?-Eightpence or 9d., I think,
is the retail price.
4S3S8. This imported article sold at Sd. or 9d. puts you out of the market you say ?-It does at
present. It is not exactly the price as much as the prejudice against the colonial article. I want the
duty more to enable us to get the market for a time. I am satisfied that if people only use our article once
it will hold them, if we once get them ; but at present the imported article has the lead, and it is very difficult
to introduce our article here.
483S9. At what price can you put your article without any duty at all upon the market, at what
price would it pay you to sell your article ?-Say 6s. 6d. to 7s.
4S390. That is your wholesale price ?-Yes.
48391. If you could sell wholesale to shopkeepers at 6s. 6d., it would be sure to sell at Std. ?-They
would sell, I presume, at 8d. the same as the imported, but we are met with the fact that the English is
known and has repute, and people will not take ours, they will not try it. That is what we want protection
for. We want it to make them try the article. Personally I should be satisfied perfectly with a period of
. two or three years' protection. I am satisfied then we could hold the market.
4S392. It is not a question of price, but the difficulty of getting the public to try yours while it
establishes its reputation ?-That is it, at the same time I think we are well entitled to protection, seeing we
paid duty upon our machinery, and that all other milk productions are protected.
48393. Do you have the tins made in the colonies ?-Yes.
4S394. Is this a limited company?-Yes. If we could get this market I may say that we should be
able to do a great deal more and extend our works co:p.siderably. If we could once get the Victorian market,
we could command the whole of the colonial markets from here.
48395. Do you anticipate doing an export trade as well as a local trade when this is established?­
Yes, we hope so, but we want to feel our footing firm here, and get a reputation and feel we have a certainty
to work upon. ·
48396. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing more.
48397. By Mr. MointyTe.-If you got the duties off the articles you require in the way of machinery,
and off sugar, would not that be sufficient protection to you ?-It would be in a way, but it would not answer
the purpose I have in view, which is more to get the market for a while, to get people to try our article.
48398. Are not you getting the market now fairly ?-We are, but very slowly, there is a great
amount of prejudice against this kind of thing. A great deal of this is used for children and babies, and
so on.
48399. Your view of getting a market would be one got by prohibition ?-No, I do not say that for
a moment. I say if you put a duty upon the imported article, I am quite satisfied we shall be able to hold
the market against all makers.
48400. What is the price of the imported article ?-About Ss.
48401. What is the price of yours ?-About 6s. 6d. is the cost of that.
4S402. If it were imported, it is Ss. ?-No, the imported sells retail at 8s.
48403. What is the wholesale price of the imported article, this size ?-Seven shillings, as far as
I know.
48404. And the wholesale price of the colonial article is how much ?-Six shillings and sixpence.
48405. As a matter of fact then, you sell cheaper than the imported article ?-Yes.
48406. Is not that sufficient to take away the prejudice ?-No, it is not.
48407. What do you ask as a protection ?-Twopence a pound, like butter and cheese and all other
milk-manufactured articles.
4S40S. You sell this at 6s. 6d. ?-Yes.
4S409. It would be 6s. 8d., suppose there is 2d. duty ?-That would bring the price from 6id. to
· S!d.
48410. Would that be to keep out the imported article ?-It would be enough to induce the
consumers to try our article, and if once they do, I will take the risk of keeping them.
48411. Have you had this article analyzed or compared with the imported article ?-It has not been
analyzed, it has been compared. ·
48412. What is the result of the comparison ?-That it is quite equal.
48413. Would it not be enough for you· to convey that fact to the public mind by advertisement,
as other tradesmen do?-Yes, but you must remember this is a company, and the directors do not like
to be always telling the shareholders to look for something in the future, and shareholders do not like this
hope deferred, and so on. And besides you must remember that the expenses are very great, so long as
you are not working up to full work.
48414. How many years do you think you would be before you were able to do without this duty?
-Personally, I would not think of asking for a clut,r for more than three years at the outside.
The witness withdrew.

1431
Gillman Goodrich Pearce sworn and examined.
48415. By the Chainnan.-What are you ?-I am a manufucturer of cheese upon the factory system.
I am the manager. of two companies: cheese making and condensed milk making.
·· 48416. Have you heard the evidence o:f Mr. Turner in relation to the condensed milk business?-
Partially. I was out when he commenced.
48417. Mr. Turner's evidence goes to the effect of
milk, .in order to seek a market against the prejudice-does
opinion we ought to have it in order to get a start here.
article equally good it is very hard to get it going.
for a duty of 2d. a pound upon condensed
agree with your experience ?-In my
I find difficulty in starting, and selling an
48418. Are you manager for this company that Mr. Turner represents ?-I am.
48419. And manager :for some other compapy ?-I am manager of the Victoria Cheese and Butter
Factory, also of Myrniong and Bacchus l\:Iarsh. .
48420. How long have you been making condensed milk in the colony ?-Since last November.
48421. Not before that at all ?-Not before that at all.
48422. Are you aware that there used to be a duty on condensed milk ?-I am not.
48423. Some years ago there was a duty on, and it was taken off?-I was not aware of that.
48424. Have you anything to add to the evidence Mr. Turner has given us ?-As regards the price
we have sold our milk for, the rate has been 6s. 6d. with 10 per cent. off, and it has been very hard to sell
at that price. People will take the Swiss milk in preference to ours, although everyone who tries it pronounces
ours the best, because it is fresher and newer-not that it is better made, but the imported is
neioessai·ily older when it gets here and is stale.
Have you had any analysis made by experts?-We have not had any analysis made at all.
4H4.26. Would not that be a good way to give it a stn.rt ?-We did not think so; we considered the
matter and concluded that people that used it would judge of its quality themselves.
48427. But to get people to use it in the first instance, if they have an analysis by experts ?­
I have bought milk here made by another company and analysed by two experts, chemists here, with their
names upou the label, recommending it as a superior article, and it was the worst milk I ever opened, and
that was one reason we did not analyse.
4tl428. Have you anything further to add ?-I do not think of ... mnnmo- more. But I do think we
are entitled to protection for many reasons. It is the policy of the
protect home industries,
and especially new industries, I think we should have help to start. When we get on our legs all right, we
can do without it.
[The witness opened and exhibited samples qf imported condensed mill!. and the article manufactured
by the Company.]
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to to-morrow, at Two o'clock.
G, G. Pea.rce,
1st May 1883.
WEDNESDAY, 2ND MAY, 1883.
Present:
JAMES MIRAMs, Esq., M.L.A., in the Chair;
The Hon. G. Meares, }I.L.C., -~ F. S. Grimwade, Esq.,
D. Muuro, Esq., J. Mcintyre, Esq., M.L.A.
E. L. Zox, M.L.A.,
Samuel Capper sworn and examined.
48429. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-Manufacturer of oilmen's stores, &c. samueiCappe 1
.-
48430. The particular item upon which you wish to give evidence just now is condensed milk, I 2nd May 1883.'
believe ?-Yes.
48431. Have you been long a manufacturer of condensed milk ?-No, we have not got as far as
erecting a plant. I do not know the manufacturing part of it, that is as far as the machinery part goes; I
know the manual, and the other, theoretically.
48432. Have you got any machinery erected ?-No.
48433. Then you have not got into it yet; you only intend to do so ?-I have gone into it manually
and proved it practicable, but have not worked the machinery practically. ,
4.8434.. What do you desire to say to the Commission ?-I do not know exactly what information is
required.
48435. You know what you wish in the matter ?-In reference to the 2d. a pound duty which was
taken off three or four years ago, that should be put on again.
48436. You did not hear the evidence given yesterday ?-No, I was not here.
4.8437. Have you read it in this morning's papers ?-I just casually glanced over it; but what I say
now I made up my mind to two years , .
48438. That is what they for-you endorse that request ?-Decidedly, for as it is now the
outlet is so small that unless there is a differential duty of 2d. there would be no profit in the manufacture.
48439. Have you made calculation of what the probable trade in the article would be?-
I have no idea except from the return.
48440. What is the amount consumed ?-In 1881 I believe it was something like 250,000 llb. tins
in a year, and I should say that has
increased since then. ,I should~say about 300,000 tins per
annum.
484.4.1. Is that all you have to say upon the condensed milk question ?-Yes, I think that is all, the
2d. duty is the most important item.
484.42. 400,000 was the quantity last year ?-It might have been 1880 that I referred to, I have
not looked lately.

Samuel Capper,
continued,
2m1 ll:f•Y: 1883,
1432
48443. By ~Jr. ~fcintyre.-Who »,re the principali consumers of this class of milk' ?-I see it in all
the stores. I believe about one-fourt.h of all that comes into the colony is exported to other colonies, and then
a great deal is used in supplying ships. A considerable quantity goes all over the country and the suburbs
too.
48444. Is there much, to your knowledge, consumed by the poorer classes of the community ?-I
think a considerable quantity is.
48445. And you wish to tax them to a tune of 2d. a pound more than they pay now ?-I think it
would not pay without it.
· 48446. What reason have you to think it would not; you are just starting the business ?-I know
about it theoretically. I know what it would cost and what it can be sold for.
48447. If you know all about it practically never mind the theory. Why do you ask for 2d. a
pound being put upon it ?-Because, from the limited use of it, it will not pay without it.
48448. But the consumption is so enormous, how can you say the consumption is limited ?-300,000
is very little for a large place like Victoria.
48449. Why do you ask 2d. a pound ?-I think it would pay better, and there would be a larger
consumption. _
48450. And it would be larger still if there was 6d. ?-I think 6d. would be too much to ask.
48451. Why did not one person come forward as manufacturer when there was 2cl. a pound?­
I cannot sav.
48452. But as soon as it was taken off they came forward ?-Yes.
48453. By Mr. Grimwade.-Do you know the English value of it ?-I do not know the price there, I
know the price here about.
- 48454. What is it ?-I should say about 7s.
48455. It is worth in England about 22s. a case ?-Four dozen, 5s. 6d.?
48456. Yes ?-I should say that is about the value.
48457. Then you want a duty of over one-third upon it ?-There is that much upon many other
articles vou could name.
484 58. ''Ne are not speaking about other articles. You want a duty of over a third on the value of
milk ?-Whatever that would come to.
48459. Have you seen the milk that has been made here already ?-I have.
_ 48460. Have you seen any of it fermented ?-I have. I have seen some I would not a shilling
a ton for. The 2d. a pound duty would not make much difference to the demand and supply.
48461. Do not you think the fact of there being ample p;;;,stures here and milk being as cheap as it
is ample protection if you know how to make it?-It is the cost of condensing. Milk costs a great deal
less here than at home.
48462. How much-have you any idea how many hands would be employed in making it ?-In this
colony?
48463. Yes ?-I think not a great number.
48464. Have you any idea. If you supply all the milk that is made in the colony, how many would
be employed in it ?-I never made a calculation. I do not think over 100.
48465. Would it be fifty, do you think ?-I think it might be.
48-!G6. Would it be twentv-five?-I am sure it would be more.
48467. Why ?--Labelling" alone would occupy that.
48468. You must know, as a manufacturer, that 400,000 tins would not take to turn them out above
twenty-five hands ?-1 believe it would take at least fifty.
48469. 400,000 tins ?-Yes ; they m1ght not be always employed, you see, because some that 1tre
employed in condensing are not doing it the whole twelve hours.
48470. Do you know why the duty was taken off 7-I do not know, but I believe it was because no
manufacturers came forward.
48471. And it was represented to Mr. Lalor (I think it was he) at the time, that this preserved
milk, condensed milk, was used entirely by poor people, and this 2d. a pound on it was a very serious tax,
as being over a third of the price more than England ?-[No answer. J
48472. By 1Wr. Zox.-Who uses the milk ?-I am not in business now, and cannot say.
48473. If you are not in business now, why do yon desire to come here and give evidence about 2d.
a pound ?-I do not know that I desire it. I got an invitation to come and give evidence. I should be
very glad if I had not. I was in it up to a few months ago-till the factory was burned down a few
months ago.
·18474. How long were you in this trade in Melbourne ?-About seven years, but not in that
particular article.
48475. Do you come and tell the Commission that in the event of 2c1. a pound being placed upon
this condensed milk, it is your intention to go into business ?-I do not say that; not in that article.
4847G. Are you in any shape or way interested in a duty being placed upon condensed milk ?-Only
prospectively; it is quite likely I may go into it, but it is not from any interest that I have in it at present
that I speak. I am asked my opinion, and I say it is my opinion that 2d. is a reasonable duty.
48477. Do the cows, in proportion, give as much milk here as at home ?.-I do not know.
48478. Is the grass equally nutritious here as at home ?-I think it is good enough for that
purpose.
48479. If we have as good grass and as good cows, why do you think it is necessary to have 2d.
a pound upon the milk ?-Because of the cost of getting it up. 'The wages here are very much higher
than in Switzerland and other places where it is made.
48480. You are thoroughly disinterested in asking for this duty ?-Quite.
48481. You have no intention of going into the business to manufacture it. ?-I may or may not.
I do not think it would induce anyone to go into it who was not in it alreadv, but it would be a great
assistance to them.
•
48482. Is not the milk principally used for export to go on board ship ?-I believe there is a large
export, I do not know how much; but I believe a fourth of all that is imported is exported to other colonies,
and a large quantity is supplied to shipping in Melbourne.

1433
48483. Who uses condensed milk in the colony of Victoria ?-It is sold in the various shops; I do
not know who uses it, I am sure. I see it in nearly every shop I look into.
48484. To whom wmilcl yon sell this milk if yon were it ?-:-To storekeepers.
48485. To whom w.ould they sell i.t ?-I do not know. I would sell wholesale for export and retail
to the storekeepers.
48486. Will you say honestly you will not go into it ir this duty is put on ?-I would not; but I
introduced it, and I took a silver medal for it when I exhibited it; and if I do not know about it nobody
else does.
48487. By Mr. Grimwade.-You said just now you would do 400,000 tins and employ fifty people.
Suppose you gave those people £2 a week, that is £5,000 a should be sorry to give many of them
so much, young girls and boys. I do not say fifty men, I am sure it would not take fifty men.
48488. By lrlr.llfcintyre.-Wonld it average a pound a week wages ?-Certainly not, it would not
average more than 15s. a week; the greater number would be young people.
48489. Do you know how much it would come to in labor at 15s. a week, it would be SOf!Iething
over a penny a tin?-[ No answer. J
48490. By Mr. Munro.-When did you manufacture this milk ?-I only manufactured a little to
start the thing about fifteen months ago, and if we had continued we should have put up machinery to
manufacture it ; but the place was burned down.
48491. Did you exhibit this milk at the Exhibition ?-I did; I was the first to introduce it,
48492. So that you have a knowledge of it though you are not in the business ?-I was the first
to introduce it as a manufacturer into the colony, and I exhibited it at the Exhibition.
48493. By 111r. Zox.-How much did you manufacture altogether ?-Simply enough for the
exhibits.
48494. Then in point of fact all the condensed milk you manufactured in the eolony of Victoria has
only been to exhibit it at the Exhibition ?-.And to send round.
48495. How many tins did you manufactnre ?-I could not tell you.
48496. Have you made a thousand tins ?-I do not know how many dozen I made; about thii·ty or
forty dozen.
48497. You made 480 tins altogether ?-Perhaps about that.
48498. By JJfr. Munro.-Was it the want of a duty that prevented you going into this ?-No, it
would pay a fair profit, a small profit without any duty; but then the outlet is so limited it would be a very
$mall profit"
48499. Would the consumers get the benefi.t of it if this was put on-would not they have to pay
so much more for it ?-Not unless the imported article is used ..
48500. By .b'lr. Grimwade.-How do you arrive at the employment of fifty hands ?-I never made
any calculation of how many hands it wmtld take to produce the whole quantity.
The witness withdrew.
Samn~l d•tpper,
eontin~d,
·2nd May !88a.
CANDLEs AND SoAP.
J olm .Ambrose Kitchen sworn and examined.
48501. By the Ghairman.-You represent the firm of J. Kitchen and Sons?-Yes.
48502. vvnere are your :works situatecl ?-Sandridge.
48503. How long have you been established ?-About twenty-five years.
48504. How many hands are you employing now ?-I do not care to answer that question unless it
is strictly necessary.
' 48505. Every other manufacturer has answered it. We never had any objection ?-If you wish it,
of course I will answer it, but I would rather not. I have no particular objection if you wish it.
48506. Very well, will you tell. us ?-From 200 to 300 hands directly at the works; but I do not
mean by that that that is the number employed upon the industries, because there would be a munber
employed indirectly in making cases and in varions ways.
48507. Those are the hands in the factory ?-Yes.
48508. Do you employ any females ?-A few-very few-five per cent. perhaps.
48509. How many of the male are uncler eighteen ?-Perhaps thirty.
48510 . .Are they apprentices
48511. You do not take apprentices we do not take apprentices.
48512. You pay wages from the commencement?-Yes.
48513. Have you any diffi.eulty in getting lads ?-Yes, the last year or two, the last twelve months
particularly-great difficulty-that is why we have gone on to girls to some extent. We are getting girls
now because there was so much difficulty in getting boys.
48514. Have the wages of the boys increased in consequence ?-Considerably; they have quite
doubled, I think.
48515. What are you paying now, to begin with ?-I should think from about 15s.
48516. To start with?-Yes, from 12s. to 15s. to start with.
48517 • .And you used to get them at from 6s. to 7s. Gel. ?-,.Yes.
48518. Do you remember the date at which the duty was impose(lupon candles ?-No, I cannot say
that.
48519. Have you noticed any effect produced upon your industry by the alterations in the Tariff?­
There was 1d. put on, I think, in 1862 as far as I recollect.
48520. It was in 1867 ?-.A year or two after, as far as I recollect, we commenced making stearine
candles in a very small way. ,
48521. That would be about 1869 ?-Can you inform me when the 'duty was increased?
48522. It was increased in 1871, from Id. to 2d. ?-It would be about 1869 that we commenced in
a very small way, and we.kept on for about twelve months, but the loss was so that we did not
continue it.
48523. What did you manufacture then ?-I am speaking now specially of stearine candles.
TaRIFF,
8 T
John A. Kitchen,
2nd 1\Jny 1883,

Joh~~~;ten,
2 nd Ma,- 1883
1434
48524. When you gave up making stearine candles, because the loss would not allow you to do it
, any longer, what did you make then-did you confine yourself principally to soap ?-Principally to soap
and tallow candles ; and immediately upon the duty being doubled, we we ut into it in a larger way.
48525. That was in 1871 ?-Yes.
48526. Then as the industry went on---?-It gradually increased from that date ; each year
there has been an increase.
48527. Has the industry been firmly established now?-Yes.
48528. Could you do with a reduction in dnty now ?-No.
48529. What would be the effect if the duty were to be put back to the Id. per pound it was
originally at ?-It would close our factories ; we could not possibly keep on with the Id. duty. Taking
the profits for the last ten years, for· instance, this department would have come out at a considerable loss,
with Id. taken off. Do you catch what I mean?
48530. I do. This portion of your business, the stem·ine candle portion, would have shown a loss
the last ten years ?-Since its commencement.
''48531. If it had been Id. instead of 2d. ?-Yes. Since the imposition of the 2d. duty, since we
commenced making them in a large way, it would have been a loss, we could not have stood it.
48532. Your conviction is that if this duty were lowerecl to ld. it would close the factory, and
these 300 hands would be put out of employment?-Yes, that portion of the 300 hands that is employed
in the candle department.
48533. Do you do an export tracle ?-Not in candles.
48534. No candles ?-It is only nominal.
48535. And when you do export, to which colony do you send, principally ?-Our exports, the last
few years, have been merely a very few candles to Tasmania, but it is a mere nothing. It is just a
particular kind of candle that they cannot get there that we supply them with. But it is nothing to
speak of.
48536. How many pounds of candles do you reckon to turn out in a month or a year now ?-I think
it wouhl be undesirable to answer that ; have you any particular wish for it?
48537. If it is one of your trade secrets, we have no wish to press it ?-I think you can get
the traile number, and about the quantities by taking the imports before the duties were imposed, and then
taking the proportion of imports now.
48538. We should have to find out how much the local consumption has increased in the meantime?
-Yes.
48539. Who are the principal customers for your candles, outside the domestic comsumption ?-The
mines.
48540. Is there as much demand for stearine candles in the mines now as there was before the duty
was imposetl ?-More, I would think.
48541. Do you think there is more quartz mining now than there was then ?-I think the demand
for candles for mines has increased, certainly.
48542. Has the price of candles increased since you were manufacturing them ?-Since the 2d.
duty?
48543. Yes ?-No; decreased.
48544. What was the price before the duty was imposed in 1871 ?-I could not sn,y, but I hn,ve
known them up to Is. !d.
48545. Retail price ?-No wholesale price; Is. ld. at all events. I speak from memory, but I
think I am correct.
48546. What is the wholesale price now ?-At the moment they are very much clearer, they would
be about 1 Od.; that imported candles.
48547. I am not speaking about the imported', I am speaking about the colonial-made ?-The candle
that we make we have various prices for ; we have four different qualities of candles that would come into
competition with the imported. Our present maximum price is \:l~d.
48548. And the imported price IOd.?-lOd. to lO!d.
48549. And then there is 2d. duty to pay upon that ?-No, that is duty paid.
48550. That is without the duty ?-About that.
48551. And those prices, you say, are higher than ordinary ?-Very much higher.
48552. What is the orclinary market price for those two qualities ?-The average price for imported
in bond-or duty paid, if you take it in that way-for the last twelve months has been, I would think,
about 8;td. to 81-d.; I may say S!cl. ·
48553. They are 2d. dearer?-Yes, at the moment.
48554. And your local article has gone up in proportion?-Yes. Our price for nearly twelve
months was about 8d., !ts against S!cl. imported.
48555. Can you account for the rise in the imported article ?-Simply short stocks with a very great
increase in the price of tallow.
48556. At home ?-Yes.
48557. In Europe ?-Yes.
48558. Then your price here is regulated by the imported price, I gather from your statement?­
No ; it is regulated by the price of tallow. For instance, to-day we could get probably from ld. to
more than we are getting now to follow the imported, but we met·ely follow the price of tallow.
48559. The average price you get for your article to-day, or this year, is not as great as it was ten
years ago when the 2cl. duty was first imposed, is it ?-No, not so high.
48560. If you can carry on at a lower price to-day than you could ten years ago and make the
undertaking a success, wonld you not be able to do the same if the duty were taken off?-The variation in
price is accounted for to a great extent by the difference in the price of tallow.
48561. So it will always be, whether there is a duty on or not ?-Taking ten years ago, the price of
tallow was higher than it is now, and that is one reason why they have been cheaper up to the present time.
48562. Is not one reason why you can afford to sell at a lower rate now than you could ten years
ago, this, that you have perfected your appliances and instructed your hands more completely ?-To some
extent it is.

1435
48563. The removal of the duty would not remove tlwse advantages which you have obtained in that John A •. Ki~hen,
direction, would it?-Yes, and more. There would not be anything like l d. ad vantage, nor even id. 2n~":.:'; lSSa.
advantage in the perfecting of our manufacture.
48564. What I mean is this. Whntever that advantage is you have it now in addition to the duty,
and you would have it still if the duty were removed ?-No, not necessarily so, because there is much
greater competition with us now by the home houses. For the first few years they did not compete with
us, but now they compete with us very much more. For instance, it is a very common thing for them to
make special terms for Australian ships, even to the difference of ~d. I have known that myself as a fact.
Candles have been sol~ at id. cheaper than the current rate for the sake of getting them. into this market.
48565. To ship them to Victoria?-Yes. There has been very keen competition with us in that
respect, and there have been already one or two very large failures in business at home ; one has just tal~:en
place now.
48566. 'Vhat would be the ultimate effect, so far as your experience enables you to come to a
conclusion, if the duty were lowered or removed and your factory were closed, so far as the manufacture of
stearine candles goes. What would be the effect upon the market for candles here ?-They would be no
cheaper than they are to-day.
48567. No cheaper ?-No, or rather the average price would not, in my opinion, be any less.
48568. Can you explain to the Commission upon what grounds you come to that conclusion ?-In
the first place we have to sell a candle that is recognised. The candle that I speak of that I put against
the imp01·ted is a superior candle to the imported to the extent of !cl. a pound. We really have to sell
them on account of prejudice, and people preferring the imported candle, I dare say prejudice to a great
extent ; there is fully ~cl. difference in that respect. And then we have taken away the importers' profits
(which were often very heavy) since the imp0sition of the duty. There htLs been no profit upon candles
since they have been made here to any great extent.
48569. Importet·s have made no profit, ?-Importers have made no profit ; generally tltey are sold at
a loss, and I know that if we were out of the market the probability is, of course, thl1t they would ml1ke
their profits again.
48570. Do we understand you to say that the importers have ml1de this a cutting line of trade, then,
as sugar is generally supposed to be with grocers ?-Very much so.
48571. Can you tell the Commission what is the difference to-day between the wholesale price of
candles per pound, at which the importers land them here, l1nd what they sell to the retail storekeeJJers for?
-Are yon speaking of the present time?
48572. Yes, the present time ?-Do I understand that you want the difference between that cost
and the cost of the candle here ?
48573. Yes. Take for instance an importing firm in Melbonrne-Connell and Hogarth or any of
them-what price are they charging to their storekeepers up-country for their candles, l18 compared with
the price t.hey pay for them landed here ?-They often sell at a loss.
4857J. Can you tell us the market price to-day for both kinds '!-To-day, as it happens, they are
bearing a profit in consequence of a very large l1dvance, as I told you just now ; but in the usual way
there is no profit, anc.l there is a loss in selling them to the retailer and to mining· people.
48575. What would be the effect ot' reducing the duty from 2d. to a penny only, and not going
to the extent of striking it off altogether ?-Upon the mannfactur~rs?
48576. Yes ?-As I said before, we must close om· factories; we could not possibly keep on.
48577. If you had only a penny taken o:ff ?-Yes. I thought you were speaking of the penny.
We could not keep ou with a halfpenny reduction.
48578. By Mr. lJ!Icintyre.-What is the price of tallow in this country at present ?-Best tallow
about £38 a ton.
48579. What is the price per ton in London ?-£48, last ad vices.
48580. They give .£10 a ton more for tallow at home, and they import the article here for
how much ?-About 6d.
48581. You said £39 and £48 ?-Yes. I take yon to say to-day; to-day there happens to be £10
difference. The average difference is £6.
48582. Do you mean to convey to the Commission that it is impossible for yon to coinpete with
the home article while the tallow is so mu eh more costly there than it is here?-Yes.
48583. What are the other component parts of a stearine candle-what is there outside of the
tallow ?-Are you alluding to t.he colonial candle or the imported ?
4R58L Colonial ?-Tallow entirelv.
48585. And the other articles tha:'t are used to make up the candle ?-Nothing but tallow.
48586. Is there not something to harden the tallow ?-:-It undergoes a certain process.
48587. No spermaceti or anything of that kind used ?-Nothing at all.
4~588. Is any used in the home candle ?-Yes, other ingredients are used in the home candle, what
we call adulteration-cheap wax, em·th wax, and many ot!ICr things.
48589. It is a singular thing, but you seem to think it is a fact nevertheless, that this adulteration
is appreciated by the consumers of candles ?-No, it is not so far as the English cl1ndle coming here to-dl1y
goes. If the consumption were to be put upon these imported eandlt"s it would add to it so that the miners
could not use them, the quality of them has so altered during the last ten years.
48590. Do you know as a matter of fact that the miners prefer the imported candles ?-No, I do not.
48591. I do, so that settles that point as far as I am concerned. Y on think that it is a prejudice
against your candles ?-Not in the mines, for in the mines I think the colonial article is used to the extent
of 98 per cent. to the extent of only 2 or 3 per cent. of imported.
48592. The prices being equal ?-No; I am speaking now of the consumption to-day. It is 95 to
97! per cent. ,
48593. Would you consider it a. fact if the Commission had received evidence to the effect that the
colonial candle is very much reprobatec1, so to speak, by miners as a rule, so that they do not care to use
it. We have evidence to the effect that you make a candle so full of tallow that it drips and destroys the
amalgam, and they prefer the imported article ?-No, I never heard anything of that sort.
48594. If we have evidence of that sort from r'rJ,iners, would it be a fact ?-No,

0
John A.. Kitchen,
1436
48595. If the men themselves who use it swear to that ?-One man might say so.
t!tmti'llued, h cc d
zndMnrlass. 48596. They are the men who use them and they give evidence tot at euect, nn you think it is
not correct ?-Certainly it would not be correct. I have here the relative melting points of our candles
and the imported candles if you would like to take them down.
48597. Will you give it in evidence ?-These are tests that I have watched to-day. They show
the melting points of the three imported brands I had before me.
48598. Would you name the brands ?-I can name the brands.
48599. How can we compare the articles unless we know the names ?-I doubt if it is fair to
manufacturers whom you wish me to mention.
_
48600. I understand that you are going to give us tests of the imported candles ?-Of the imported
candle, the melting point is the true test of the imported candle.
48601. Will you give us the statement?
48602. B.!J the Chairman.-lilld give the names, too, for it is no good without them ?-I think I am
rendering myself some way liable in giving the names.
48603. B.:1 Mr. JYiclntyre.-Well, then, put it this way: that you have tested certain brands of the
English imported article, and give that without giving the ll!Lmes ?-I have no objection to state that I
have tried certain packages of' candles to-day-at least saw them tried by my chemist, and that those bore
a certain melting point.
48604. I would rather you would not give that evidence at all. If we want it we can get it':from
the chemist himself. I thought yon were the chemist ?-It was done in my presence and I had the
thet·mometer in my hand myself. De Rubaix Genaud had a melting point of 118°, de Rubaix Oven
Rofer 121°, Schiedarn 120°, that is as against our candle 122°.
48605. All round ?-Yes.
48606. And yours is a higher average ?-Yes.
48607. About ·1 ?-An average of more than It. That is a very considerable difference in candles.
I then tried one of ours, a special candle that we offer in competition with the Russian Neva, which is the
, very best candle. The Russian Neva I made 122'\ according to the test applied to-clay, and our candle
124°.
48608. That is the special brand ?-That is the special brand.
48609. The one that yon say takes the position of the Russian?-Yes.
48610. Is this your regular candle melting point-the one you have been turning out for many
years ?-122°.
48611. For many years or recently ?-For many years.
48612. How long is it since you began to improve the canclle you sell ?-We have not improved
for a long time-not in that candle, we have been at 122° to 123° for many years.
48613. If that is a fair statement of the melting points, would not the mining community, your
largest consumers, as you admit, have discovered it long ago and have prefeiTecl it to the imported
mtnclle ?-The imported candle has totally changed in quality since the miners had them. The miners
have not had them for many years, and if anything occnrred to make them use imported candles again they
could not use them.
48614. I am afraid you are not quite safe in giving that evidence. Last year there were as many
candles imported, as is evident by the amount received in taxation, as there were in 1870 when there was
only a penny duty, £11,114 last year as compared with £5,432 before, showing (as I know the fact to be)
that the miners are consuming the imported article much more largely than they have been doing. How do
you account for that ?-I am perfectly assured it is not correct.
48615. There is the evidence ?-I speak now of mining consumption last year. It increased onehalf.
Are you taking off what went out of the colony again ?
48616. I give you the revenue, it Wl1.S the same last year as the previous year. There has
been no such revenue as there was then since 1871 when the penny duty was on, and I want to get at
your reason for making the statement it has decreased ?-All I can say is, that each year our demand has
increased.
48617. In that way you draw the line. You said that the increase in the price at home of tallow
has no effect particularly upon the local market, ancl yet you follow the home price ?-No, I beg your pardon,
I follow the price of tallow in this market. I have nothing to do with the home price of candles, and
nothing to do with the home tallow price.
48618. If the home article were selling at a high price, would not the makers here raise their price ?
-No, it depends entirely upon the price of tallow.
48619. What was tallow this time twelve months ago ?-This time eighteen months, I think, there
would be a difference of £10 to £18 per ton.
48620. What was it a twelvemonth ago ?-I fancy it commenced to go up just then, I am not quite
clear.
48621. It is a singular thing that you have raised the price of candles and that tallow has notmuch
altered in pt'ice ?-Tallow has altered considerably in price.
48622. What was the price of tallow twelve months ago ?-I could not say.
48623. What was it six months ago ?-Perhaps a difference of £3.
48624. You have increased the price of candles how much since then ?-A penny farthing, I
think.
48625. For a difference of £3 in a ton of' tallow you increased the price of the article you made
l~d. a pound ?~One penny farthing.
48626. Is that a fair thing ?-All the candles were being sold at that time for a oonsiderable loss
for six or eight months.
48627. Were you selling at 11 loss ?-At a considerable loss.
48628 An absolute loss do you mean ?-An absolute loss.
48629 .. And you continued to employ atl those hands ?-And I centinuecl to employ all those hands,
and at an absolute loss.
48630. And if a penny duty were taken off you wonld discharge all those ?-.And if a penny duty
were taken off we would discharge all those permanently.

1437
48631. How can you make ends then, if you sell at a loss ?-Because we have to put one six John A. Kitchenl
continudd~
months against another six months.
!lnd May 1883,
48632 .. Would not that apply if you take off a penny duty ?-No, because then we see no m·,()~''"'r•r.
but a permanent and a heavy loss.
48633. 'Vhat wages do you pay ?-Per man, we commence at 3Gs., I think. Of cmu·se, a great
many get higher wages than that.
48634. Do you pay by the week or by piece-work ?-Partly, not much by
I
think it is only moulding that is paid by
48635. Have your wages largely since you got the duty upon candles
48636. Are you paying more to the men than you did. befOTe; are wages higher
two
or three years they are higher, perhaps 10 cent. higher.
48637. Does that arise from the that you get a 2d. duty, or a scarcity oflabour ?-A scarcity
of labour.
48638. Do you really wish the Commission to believe that, in the e·vent of a recommendation being
made that the duty should be reduced by a penny a pound, the proportion of 300 hands that you
employ upon candle-making would be at once discharged ?-I am on my oath, and I cannot see even
with a halfpenny taken off the duty that we could possibly keep on that department, we wonld just have
to close it.
48639. W oulJ the hands now employed upon that particular branch not be absorbed in some other
direction in your manufacture ?-Most certainly not. We have our usual soap-hands. lwve 11othing
to do with the cnndles. If the candle department is closed the candle-hands would have to go, of course; and
it is not only the two or three htmdrcd that we employ at the factory, but some hundreds outside, all depend
upon it.
48640. Suppose this 2d. a pound were not upon the imported artiele at present, woulcl you tell me
the price of the imported candle without the duty ?-In the long run I do not think it would be any
cheaper.
48641. If that is the case, there is no need for any duty at all from the reasons I have
stated first that we have to sell our n.t a halfPenny under the imported. always have to do that,
because we have all the makers
Candles are constantly being put on board at a considerable
loss. We run the continental very close indeed. Two have already failed and they a~e selling
candles to Australian ports at a very low price.
48642. Those home makers must be a sort of philanthropists?-We have reduced the European
candle.
48643. Those home manufacturers who sell so cheap must be disposed to be kind to the colony?­
That I cannot say. I am not acquainted with them.
48644. Supposing candles come at this low price, who would benefit by it ?-If they come vtithout
a duty ?
48645. Yes ?-If they come without a duty at very low prices the public might benefit to some
extent.
4!:l646. The consumer, the miner, would benefit?-Yon are speaking of a special case if those
prices still continue, in my opinion they woulcl not continue.
48647. Then if they would not, wherein comes the competition, you need not be afraid of it ?-They
if we were closed, of course.
You about candles being ls. lcl. a pound some time ?-Some years ago.
48649. Have you ever seen them sold as high as 2s. 6d. a pound cannot recollect.
48650. I said it is a question of time, you know that was one of the times that I speak of
when the importers were getting such a very large profit as they would if the duty was taken off and
the trade was
upon the importers.
48651. do not believe that if there was a glut of this article at home they would not be very
glad to make a market for it here ?-I could not say.
48652. You do not want the Commission, either, to that the reduction from ls. ld. to the
present price was in consequence of the 2d. duty upon want the Commission to miderstaud that
we do not tl1ink the 2d. duty has enhanced the price of
the ten years.
48653. Suppose you put 3d. on it, would it enhance the ?-Yes.
48654. Then a penny would make all the difference in direction ?-Certainly. .
48655. I thought the higher the duty put on the lower the of the article. You clo export
some candles to Syclney ?-Not to any extent, only 2 cwt. or 3 cwt. in a year, just to oblige a soap
customer.
48656. You are not one of the men that send them to the adjoining colonies and sell at a less price
than the whole world and than they do here ?-None of the Melbourne manufacturers do that.
48657. You Citnnot answer for them ?-I go by the regular returns.
48658. The mining community is the largest consumer of this particular article, and the burden of
taxation upon that one item is very great, seeing the amount of duty paid last year. Have you ever
thought of the propriety of doing justice to that particular industry by increasing the value of gold, and
give them £4 10s. an ounce for their gold to .make up for what they pay for candles ?-No, I have not
considered it at all. ·
48659. By Mr.' Munro.-You say all the importers are against- you. Do not you sell any candles to
wholesale merchants ?-Yes.
48660. And how do I understand vou that all the are agffinst you. Would not it pay
merchants to deal with you ?-No. '
48661. They get equally as good an article and do not require to keep so large a stock that
is· where my point comes in ; they could not get the amount of profit from the colonial man that they can
with the imported, because they cnn often get a good profit in the case of short shipments.
48662. Supposing the importers dealt with would not require to have the same amount of
capital invested in candles, and they could be
a small profit, and at the end of the year
would do as well ordering a large quantity ?-One reason we have them against us is that they did

, John A •. Kitchen, whole trade before, but now of course we do a great deal of the country trade direct ; we have taken a great
' •• 2 n~'::;'tssa. deal of their country trade from them.
48663. You have travellers out selling to storekeepers all through the country ?-Yes, I have
travellers out selling to storekeepers all through the country, so we have taken the trade from the importers,
and that is one reason why they do not like us.
48664. Is there any association or any way to regulate the price the same as the confectioners do, is
there a uniform tariff of prices ?-To some extent.
48665. Do you meet monthly ?-No.
48666. Do the candle makers ?-No.
48667. Do you meet at all ?-No.
48668. Have you some understanding as to the price ?-To some extent we have.
48669. There is an understanding between the trade, the manufacturers. We were tolcl yesterday
that the confectioners met monthly to regulate the price ?-No, we do not; there is nothing of the kind with
us. We have an indefinite understanding, but there is nothing very definite about it.
48670. What is the value of the plant you employ in this factory ?-From .£50,000 to .£60,000 in
candles I suppose.
48671. Your :firm is now a limited company, is it not ?-Yes.
48672. By ~Jr. Zo:c.-Will you please to explain what you mean by an indefinite understanding
existing between the manufacturers of candles ?-We have no hard and fast arrangement as to prices, any
hard and fast line committed to paper, or anything of that sort; there is a general understanding as to prices,
but there is nothing very definite about it.
48673. Will you please to explain to the Commission the nature of the understanding without its
being hard and fast, that exists between the manufacturers of colonial candles?-Yes. For instance, take
last week. There have been one or two advances on tallow lately; I would meet the manager of the
Apollo Company, perhaps call at his office, and tell him that I thought I should raise candles, and he would
perhaps agree with me and they would be raised, but there is nothing binding between us. For instance,
the Apollo Company may sell a line of candles an !d. or a !d. under us. There is nothing binding, nothing
very definite.
48674. But after an interview of the description you have mentioned, if you were undersold by the
Apollo or any other candle company, would you or would you not consider it a breach of tmst ?-No;
because 'there is nothing definite about it.
48675. A breach of faith, I mean, if they undersold you ?-No, there is nothing definite about it.
48676. If there is nothing definite about that interview, what is the good of the interview?­
Because it keeps prices together to some extent.
48677. To what extent ?-To a great extent, but not altogether.
48678. I do not desire to press you upon that question, but you say that really there is no combination
between the candle makers of this country to maintain their prices ?-There is no binding
combination.
48679. Is there a very great export of tallow from this country to the old country ?-Yes, very
large.
48680. And then those candles come back again ?-No.
48681. Do the candles made from this tallow come back to this country at all ?-That used to be
the case some years ago, but now, to a very great extent, the home manufacturers do not use tallow, they
use cheap earth-wax and palm oil and other things, and that is the very reason that candles are not so
good. I was saying just now, importeu candles are not nearly so good, and tllat the way ours are so much
better than theirs is, that we can get nothing but tallow and they get the other cheap ingredients. They
come cheaper to them but certainly take off the value of the candle very considerably.
48682. Are those ingredients unobtainable in this country ?-Yes, quite.
48683. You make stearine candles?-Yes, exclusively from tallow.
48684. You said sometime ago you sold those candles at something like a p€lnny a pound loss?­
Yes.
48685. What was the reason ?-A glut in the import market to some extent, a very great glut.
They were selling here at a very great loss, and as to the local competition, instead of anything binding
between us, we were cutting tooth and nail against each other· for some months.
. 48686. In point of fact does not that prove undoubtedly there could not have been any combination
between the local manufacturers ?-Certainly, for a very long time we were working in that way.
486!:17. Do you think it a matter of impossibility in any way to reduce the pt·ice, supposing the duty
were taken oft; you are not able to compete with the home manufacturer ?-I do not catch your question
~~ .
48688. Suppose that the duty upon candles were in any way lowered, would it be a matter of
impossiblity for you to. compete with the candles sent out here ?-I have stated so before, and I want to be
very clear, that even if a halfpenny were taken off, we could not possibly keep on the industry. It is
quite impossible to do so.
•
48689. By Mr. 1Wclntyre.-l want to draw Mr. Kitchen's attention to the evidence we received at
Sandhurst from one of the largest mining mapagers there, Mr. Von der Heyde. It is desirable the
manufacturers should know the feeling of the mining community. "Are you aware from your own experience
of the difference in burning power of the one candle over the other ?-No ; but I know that when
the candles are very soft they destroy the amalgamation in the tables. 10534. The drippings of a soft
tallow candle upon the quartz are very mischievous to the amalgamation of the gold?-Yes. 10535. That
is an objection against the colonial article?-Yes, and it was the same objection against hot-water feed
in old time. We thought it would be much better to crush with hot water, but first it made the quicksilver
too lively, and secondly the hot water turned the grease to oil and lost the gold. 10536. In fact, the
bad quality of the candles is against their use in the mines ?-Yes, otherwise they would use tallow
candles; but they only use those in wet mines iu sinking shafts. 10537. In fact, the imported article at
G~d. in bond is much more suitable in quality for your purposes ?-Yes, bec>tuse they are much harder."
There is the evidence of t4is gentlen1an, and it is well yot1 maru~f&ctnrers should know the feeling of the
1438

1439
people in the country ?-I think there would be no difficulty in bringing down a hundred men from Ballarat John A •.Kilchen,
or Sandhurst who are always using those candles, to show that they are quite equal to the imported.
2n~ 0 ~f~:'fss3.
48690. The Commission took the evidence and it was published every day in the local press, and
the Commission were quite willing to receive evidence from such men and they did not come ?-I may say
that Mr. Clal'k, the chemist to the Apollo Company, can speak perhaps more confidently than myself (he is
in the room) as to the melting point of those things, and their being properly decomposed.
48691. By the Cltairman.-Have you anything further that you wish to add to the evidence you
have given ?-I do not think so.
48692. Is there any article that you use in your industry that pays duty that the duty might be
removed from ?-No, I think not.
The witness withdrew.
The Honorable Thomas Loader, sworn and examined.
48693. By the Chairman.-You are the secretary or manager of the Apollo Candle Company?- TbeHonora.ble
Managing director
• , 2nd May 1883.
48694. When was your company established ?-Somewhere about ten years ago; about 1873.
48695. Situated in Footscray, is it not?-Yes.
48696. How many hands have you employed there now ?-About 120 or 130, between 100 and 200
we generally have; we are rather short-handed just now.
48697. That does not include the outside work ; that is the people in the factory itself ?-That is
the whole number we employ.
48698. Do you manufacture anything but candles ?-Soap, glycerine, and lubricating oils.
48699. Do you take apprentices ?-No.
48700. Do you begin to pay wages from the first?-"\Ve pay wages from the first.
48701. Have you any difficulty in getting lads ?-Occasionally ; but not as a rule. I should not say
we have any difficulty.
48702. What wages do you begin with now ?-We commence at 10s. for boys and girls, and 12s.
and up to 34s. for labour.
48703. You have some females employed ?-Yes.
48704. They commence at 10s., and when they get to be journeymen, do they get wages weekly, or
are they employed piece-work ?-Most.ly weekly wages, very few men are upon piece-work.
48705. What can they earn a week when they are full journeymen-thoroughly masters of their
business ?-Laborers from 33s. to 36s. The other men, press men and others, earn up to £2.
48706. Your industry was established after the last alteration 1n the duty upon candles ?-Yes.
48707. The second penny was put on in 1871, and your industry was established in 1873 ?-It
never would have been established except for it.
48708. It was established in consequence of the duty ?-No doubt.
48709. Now that you have reached your present stage of perfection, could you carry on if the duty
were removed ?-Not at present, certainly.
48710. Would yon be able to earry on if the duty were reduced to the original penny ?-Certainly
not, at present.
48711. You say "not at present"-do you wish to infer by that, that in a few years time you
might be iu that position ?-I think so ; I hope so. Whoever has the management of this business in a
few years time, I imagine, would be able to do without so hea,vy a duty as at present, but certainly not
now; the industry is not yet sufficiently acclimatised and established. Up to the present time, the company
I represent has had nothing but one struggle of troubles and difficulties to work against the whole of
the time.
48712. And you are not quite through them yet ?-No, indeed, we are not.
48713. Do you do an export trade?-We have a branch establishment in Sydney to which we
export a certain quantity of preparecl tallow and distilled stearine. We have done so until lately.
48714. And then you manufacture the stearine into candles, in Sydney?-Yes.
48715. Have not they lately stopped that?-Yes, within the last six weeks they have imposed a duty
of Id. a pound which has stopped us sending stuff there.
48716. By lYir. Grimwade.-A duty upon crude stearine ?-A. duty upon crude stearine.
48717. By the Cl!airman.-They have a duty of 1d. a pound upon eandles, have they not?­
Yes.
.48718. And now they have made a departmental regulation which reckons a case of stearine to be
a box of candles ?-Yes.
48719. And charge you 1d. a pound upon it ?-That is exactly it.
48720. And that prevents you from manufacturing them in Sydney, does it not ?-Yes, at present,
48721. And that would stop your export trade then ?-It will to some extent.
48722. Have you any information to give to the Commission about the relative qualities of the
colonial candle and the imported. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Kitchen upon that point?-I did not.
But the colonial eanclle, the pure animal stearine candle, made by the local factories, is a better candle than
the majority of European candles that come to this market, beeause it is manufactured from animal stearine,
and many of the importecl candles are manufactured from il~ferior greases, vegetable greases and others.
48723. Mr. Kitchen informed the Commission that the price of colonial candles has always to be
about id. a pound lower than the price of the imported ?-That_is so.
4872±. Of the same quality ?-That is so.
48725. That is your experience ?-Yes, that is in consequence of the prejudice of the people here in
favour of imported candles.
48726. The prices Mr. Kitchen gave us as ranging to-day (which he told U!J were exceptionally
high on account, principally, of the increase in the price of tallow) are 9.g.d. to 9~d. for colonial, and lOd. to
lO!d. for imported ?-Just so. ·
48727. So that though the duty is 2d. the enhancement in price over the imported is only ld. ?­
That is so.
Thomas Loo.der,

Tne Rono:rab!a
Th9!n!IS Loader,
continued,
2nd May 1883,
1440
48728. IA that your experience ?-Yes, that is right.
48729. Have you gone into the question sufficiently minutely to be able to say for a certainty that
your industry could not carry on without the present rate of duty?~Yes, I have not a doubt about it.
48730. You have no doubt about it ?-Not any.
48731. I suppose the soap part of. it could carry on ?-Yes, the soap is quite independent of duty.
48732. What proportion of your business is the soap business ?-I could not exactly name the
proportion, but I do not consider that we are very large soap manufacturers at present ; it is only lately
that we have given much attention to the soap trade. We have been making soap always for the last five
or six years.
48733. Your principal business is the candles?-Yes.
48734. Have you an export trade to any of the other colonies ?-In candles, I mentioned already to
Sydney.
48735. To none of the other colonies except Sydney ?-No, we have an independent factory in
Brisbane, where there is 2d. duty the same as there is in this colony, without which duty we never should
have establised a factory there. There is no doubt these duties, whether they are right or wrong, have
been the direct means of establishing this factory.
· 48736. Ca,u you give the Commission any information as to what the price of candles was before you
started, say in 1870, before the additional penny was put on-the price of stearine candles, the average
1)rice-was it lower than it is now ?-I am very sorry to say th

1441
the ld. is taken off, the miners might get the ld. for prospecting with. They might get it for many other The Honomble
'Ihomas Loader,
purposes ; they might not get it at all ; it depends upon the state of the market entirely.
con#nueil,
48753. It l;llight be mopped up by the importers ?-It might.
2nd May, 1883.
48754. At any rate your company would have to close its canclle works utterly, and leave the market
to the importers '?-I have not the slightest doubt every candle company would stop.
48755. By Mr. Zvru.-You say you often pay a certain amount of duties in your trade with regret;
can you tell the Commission what those duties are that you pay upon the articles that you use in your
business ?-Machinery. Sometimes we have to import machinery that we cannot get made here, and we
have to pay duty upon it.
48756. Is that the only article ; is there any raw material that you use in the manufacture of
candles, upon which yo,u have to pay a duty, that is not produced in this country·?-I do not remember that
we do pay upon anything ; machinery happened to be uppermost in my mind because we had been recently
paying it.
48757. You do not know. of any other article?-No, I do not know of much duty upon other
things.
48758. Is the machinery upon which you pay duty patent machinery ?-No.
48759. Could the articles of machinery, which you use in your business, be made in the colony ?-It
could, a[ter we had once got the pattern here; hut the machinory generally is new to us, and is generally
ordered from plans and pattern books which we see; but after we have once got the machinery here we can
generally get it made upon the spot, and very often we get it made to a great advantage.
48760. But suppose you do not import the machinery from England, would it be absolutely necessary
for you to get it manufactured in this coumry ?-Yes, we must either get it made here or import it, I think.
48761. Would the difference in price be very much ?-~The difference in price is not the whole thing,
there is a difference in quality as well. In some c:tses the difference in price would not prevent us from
having it made here if we could get the right quality made here. Some of our materials are made of cast
iron, and the quality of' the metal used here by the foundries for making that particular descl'iption of steel
pots, that we require, is not good enough; they have not got the proper metals to make the proper mixture,
and we are obliged to import those articles from Scotland.
48762. Bnt, taking into consideration the difference in price you have to pay and the difference in
the quality you mention, suppose you put it into a percentage, could you give the Commission any idea. of
the percentage there would be between the colonial-made article and the English ?-I coulcl not. Allow
me to explain the impossibility of doing so. Baircl metal ici no good at tLll for such a purpose as a steel
pot for you may have a large charge of valuable contents in a still and it may go at a most unexpected
time, before it has been in use a month, or two perhaps. A good steel pot made ot' proper metal will last
for years, and you may work with the utmost security, so that no percentage would represent the difference
between a bad steel pot and a good one, and th!tt class of metal is not understood by common founders .who
are right enough in making a common casting; they have not either the experience or the metal for it.
48763. Since we have establish-ed the manufacture in the colony, has it been an advantage or
otherwise to the consumers, with the duty on, as far as English prices are concerned?-Ut,terly irrespective
of my being interested in candle making, from a pmctical point of view I consider the consumer has benefited
immensely by the existence of these fn,ctories.
48764. If the duty then were taken off to-morrow and the English candles were to come in free,
would the consumer be able to purchase at a higher or a lower price than at present ?-The consumer would
be subject to the establishment of candle rings and the fluctuations of the market, and they would pay a
high price; probably they would be paying Is. 6d. a pound at this moment for candles.
48765. You heard the evidence of Mr. Kitchen about the existence of combinations in the tradedo
you agree with that ?-Yes, I agree with him. There is a combination between us or we should be
cutting each other's throats, ns we have done more than once.
48766. Have you any objection to state the nature of that combination r-Wben tallow rises or
falls, we meet and have a few words-" Do you consider we can go on as we are, or ought candles to be
raised or lowered?'' and the whole thing is done in a few minutes. vYe consider whether we can rise or
fall according to the tallow market .
.· 48767. At these interviews, is there a price settled between the various candle makers of the colony?
__;There are but two of us.
48768. And the two of you do it?-Yes, we make agreements-but we do not always keep them.
48769. Is that fair ?-It depends upon which does it.
48770. By M1·. Mclnty1·e.-If the importers did it, what would it be considered ?-It would be con-
. sidered a market combination. .
48771. If the manufacturers do it it is not a market combination?-It is a market combination; it is
done all over the world.
48772. The Chairma,n just asked you about a man who gave evideu~e at Fryerstown, and you said
that this opinion that the ld. a pound would be a benefit to the miners was a vague one. No doubt it is
vague, but is it not natural to him to think that they would get the benefit '?-It is natural enough.
48773. You did not pay any attention to that particular part of his evidence wherein he sahl that it
was the general report that you exported an article to Sydney and sold it there at Id. a pound less than you
did here. Is there any truth in that statement ?__;I must repmliate the statement, because the man, I still
say, does not know what he is talking about.
48774. But you know that an impression prevails ?-Yes, I know that an impression of that sort
prevails.
48775. You have heard it stated many times r-Very many times. .
48776. Will you explain the facts of your exportation to Sydney and the price you sell at there as
compared with your price here ?-That impost of lcl. a pound has preyvented us doing it. ·
48777. That is latelv ?-Yes.
48778. But before that ?--When the tallow runs llown to £2·i, £26, £28 per ton, we could manufacture
steal'ine at a very much lower price than we can when tallow is anything over £30, up to £36 as it
is now. At the lower prices it was within our .powcl' to manufacture ~tearine greatly in excess of the
'J'AJl.lVF,
8p

The IIonoro,b!e
~horn"'! Loader,
contlnued,
2nd May 1883.
1442
consumption in this market; our still power being very much in excess of our melting power. We either
have to keep those stills idle or to put them at full speed and sell the stuff somewhere else, and we found
that by putting them at full speed we could send stuff to Sydney and sell the candles there within the
tarift-the Sydney tariff-in large quantities, and we did so. Our trade in Sydney clifters from our trade
in Melbourne in this respect, that we sell there in quantities of 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 boxes to wholesale
houses, who take the whole cost of distribution upon themselves. ·we have no travellers and no staff
up there beyond our manager and his clerk, and the accountant, and the boys and women in the factory;
and the cost of sale and distribution in Sydney is less by at least id. to ~d. a pound, perhaps I might be
quite safe in saying ~cl. to !cl. a pound than it is in :Melbourne. So that it requires us to obtain in
Melbourne from -§-d. to ;fd. more to put us upon the same footing with regard io profits, that we are upon
in Sydn~y. In Melbourne we have a large staff, we have four travellers and several clerks, and
the whole necessary establishment. We have many hundreds of customers, a great many hundreds
of customers; ttnd in New South Wales, I do pot suppose we have above sixty or seventy customers
altogether. That expense to the extent of id. or id. a pound explains the difference between the two
markets.
48779. Th11t is the explanation of the fact ?-That is the explanation, to the extent of ~cl. at any
rate.
48780. Jnst lately ld. a pound has been imposed upon tllis article. Before that, how could you,
compete with the foreigners to advantage in the Sydney market and not compete with them here ?-We
could compete with them there, just as well as here. We used to sell 70,000 to 80,000 boxes of candles
there.
48781. With ld. a pound duty?-Yes.
48782. Why could not you do the same here with Id. a pound duty ?-It was our surplus. I
thought I explained that to you.
48783. I understand you so far, but I want to .find out how it is that you could not apply nearly the
same principle here and give the colony of Victoria the benefit of this reduction ?-I ailswer you at once,
if a wholesale man here will !.my thousands of boxes from us and take a share of our work, and relieve us
from the necessity ofha;ving tmvellers all over the country' we could at once give llim the benefit of aths
of a penny a pound in the price. May I hand in some testimonials.about the quality of canclles-[ltanding
in a paper.]-That is the South Garden Gully Company, a company you know, I think.
48784. Yes. About the statement as to the medals you received at the different exhibitions. Were
the candles you exhibited at the different exhibitions not a superior article to that which goes into general
consumption?-You may depend upon it we do not send the worst, neither does the farmer, when he sells,
show the worst quality of wheat.
48785. Therefore it is not a fair test?-Yes it is, because if we do our best everybody else does the
same.
48786. But you may have succeeded by extra attention to that particular article ?-Allow me to
mention, that as a matter of fact some candles exhibited at the exhibition as European candles were made
at the Apollo Candle Company's works, and took a medal.
48787. This is not the table that was mentioned. You mentioned some table to the Chairman to
show the price of candles before the duty ·and now-does the table show also the price of tallow at that
time ?-I do not think it does.
48788. Then it would be no use to compare it unless we have the prices of tallow ?-That is
quite so.
48789. You say the table will show that the establishment of your factories here has reduced the
price of candles. How can you possibly do that ?-That, I think, is undoubted. Before these factories
were established, candles were imported in various ways, and it was known what quantity of candles were
on the road out, and that enabled some of the large houses here to combine together and so purchase all the
candles in the market and all the candles known to be upon the road out, and all the candles to arrive for
the next three months. In that way a few houses would take the control of the candle market, and could
at once put candles up to 15d. and 16d. a pound, which they did over and over again. It was impossible
for their operation to be interfered .vith till the course of post to Europe had annotmced to the European markets
what was going on here. and of course a great deal of money was made in that way. Then a glut of candles
would come into the market in order to secure the high price ; the candle speculators by that time had sold
out. and retired, and candles came doWll again, and as soon as they came down low enough, they walked into
the market and bought them up again and put them up. The establishment of such factories as ours and
Kitchen's renders that operation impossible, because the factories must be kept going. You cannot stop a
factory as a merchant can a speculation. If a speculation is bad, the merchant just stores his stuff. He
loses the interest and the amount of storage he pays; but if the manufacturer stops, he loses everything. His
machinery and plant deteriorate, fl,nd he loses all his hands, and all his place goes to destruction ; therefore the
only thing the mauufacturer can do if he meets with an tmfavourable market, is to reduce his price, and he
must either go on nmning it at a loss or stop his factory at a loss. That is the choice between the two
things. The reason is that these large factories must keep running, and they keep running at a price which
prevents the speculation of former years, making it simply impossible. The price is now regulated simply
by the bare price in Europe, and the tables which I handed up, and have much pleasure in placing before
the Commission, will show that the price of candles has been gradually receding since 1872-3.
48790. The explanation would be thoroughly satisfactory at the time you speak of, but it is not so
now. Circumstances are very different. We are in hourly communication with Europe. vVe can be in
communication with every manufacturer at a day's notice, and the matter of transit is entirely different
now, and it is impossible that such things can ever occur again. Is not that your opinion?-Yes, that is
right. ·
48791. That being so, your argument drops away altogether. I can quite understand it under the
old regime, but I cannot accept it now as a satisfactory explanation of the statement that the price of
candles has been reduced by the duty ?-I understood you to be speaking of the past.
the past.
48792. In Sydney you established a business ?-Yes.
I was speaking of

1443
48793. Is it a success ?-It was until last yem·. The Honorable
48794. Under the lJ.. a pound duty ?-No, last yenr was a very bad year indeed for cnndle makers; Tb~'::~n~~ter,
because tallow was so excessively high and the market was flooded with foreign candles which European. 2nd Moy 1883.
makers had n1shed into the market thinking to crush us people out of existence.
48795. May it not have been the want of money now i'-It may have been that.
48796. They bad not you in their minds at all, it was merely the want of money ?-I do not know
that.
48797. You succeeded in Sydney with ld. a pound duty, could not you succeed here, with an
·.ordinary market for tallow, with Id. a pound. Is labour not as dear here as in Sydney ?-~Coals are
cheaper there and labour is much the same, but I explained that the cost of distribution was so much
less to us as actual manufacturers. I suppose we conlLl make them as cheap there as here.
48798. You have endeavoured to show that the local article is superior to the imported, and yet
you maintain that a prejudice exists i.n regard to the local article-may not the prejudice be got over, do
you think, by the people using the article ?-It has in very many cases done so. These testimonials that I
have just handed in to you will show that. ·
48799. These are some special candles ?-No, indeed they are not.
48800. Can you explain how it is that last year the amount of imports in this a1·ticle was so much
over the previous year-there was £11,114 revenue from it last year, as compared with £5,432 the year
before ; can you explain that large increase in the import of candles beyond my explanation that in many
cases the preference is given to the imported article over the local on the simple ground of its quality?­
No, I do not think I could give any explanation of it; but I do not accept your explanation.
48S00a. By JI;Jr • .LYunro.-Those steel pots are specially prepared, are they not-is not there a trade
secret connected with the mixing of the metal ?-I think there is.
48801. How many of those do you use in a year-would it warrant anybocly establishing a factory
for the purpose of making those steel pots ?-I do not think so ; for if we get a good pot it will last three
or four years. The makers at home say a good pot would last eight years or nine years, but we have
no such experience ; but a bad pot lasts only a very short time.
48802, Did you ever attempt to adopt the same principle in Melbourne aE you do in Sydney, namely,
selling directly to importers ?-Certainly. We started business with that intention, but we fonncl that the
importers were too strong for us-that they could either buy from us or leave us alone as they pleased ;
they possessed the large trade and had all the outlets in their own hands all through the colony, and
we found at last that if we wanted to do a candle trade we must go direct to the distributor, and overlook
the importer altogether, who preferred to sell the foreign candle.
48803. Could not he make as much profit out of the colonial candle as out of the imported?-We
used to tell him so, but he used to prefer to import. You see the importer is in a peculiar position.
Probably he has a house in I~ondon ; he is a member of a large house, and the house in London a.re buying
other things engaging freight, ha.ving insurance rebates, and many little things of different kind~, it suits
the buyer at home to buy largely, candles as well, upon which he charges 2~ per cent. commission, and he
ships them all out to the house here, ani! the house here have to get through them. That applies to a great
many of the houses here, and, therefore, until the houses here become thoroughly convinced by experience,
that it does not pay them to import foreign candles and sell against the local manufacturer, they will not
think of entering into an arrangement with the colonial manufacturer of an exclusive character; and it has
been the task of manufacture1·s for the last three or four or five years to convince the importing houses that
it is not to their advantage to import candles, and last year this company lost thousands of pounds in the
contest.
48804. 'Vhat is the capital of the Company ?-£200,000.
48805. Has it ever paid any dividends ?-It has paid one ; the new company has only been
established a year.
48806. Do you attribute last year's loss to the market being glutted. with imported candles ?-Yes,
I do.
48807. Being sold at a loss ?-Yes, no doubt, and the high price of tallow.
48808. Do you see any prospect of being able to cultivate that connection ?-I do ; I always hope
to do it.
. 488.09. In Sydney the consumer would get the benefit ?-If the importers and large houses would
m:1.ke a contract with the Apollo Company to take from them so many boxes a year, the company would
make a contract with them never to sell a box, except through them, and then they could put them at a
low price the same as in Sydney. It simply means using their staff to distribute candles.
48810. You do not object to paying this duty upon machinery that you use in your factory, do you?
-No.
4881 L Have you any objection to mention the yearly output of candles by your company ?-I would
mention it in u moment if I knew it, but I do not know what it is.
48812. By the Chai~·mcm.-Did I understand you to say to Mr. Mcintyre that it was next- to
impossible now for importers to form a ring to manipulate the market for candles?-Yes, undoubtedly, they
could not do it,
4.8813. So that that aspect of the case has passed away ?-Utterly. The moment they formed a
ring they would have the candle companies down upon them in a moment, and down goes the price.
48814. But I mean, assuming thut the candle companies were away, would the other appliances
prevent a ring ?-Then we could form a ring, but not so strong or of such long duration as formerly.
488L"i. Becfluse of the readier means of communication?-Yes.
48816. Byilfr. lVlunTo.-Is it not customary in all trades, especially in England, for them to meet
monthly or weekly to tt

··1444
'rlle'Honorli:bte 48820. By .Ll'ir. 1rlunro.-What do you attribute the high price of tallow to at the present moment?-
Tho,!a;,.~er, To the high price in London-a, scarcity. in the London market. ·· · .·
2rldMa,r·l88a. 48821. Is it shipped from here to London ?-It is shipped from here to London.
48822. You are rulell by it ?-Entirely. · .·
48823. By the Chairman.-Have you anything further to add upon any point which we have not
elicited ?~I would only say that if the duty upon candles can ever be reduced it must not be reduced at
present. It must be allowed to remain some time yet until the industries are more firmly established. That
is all that I have to say.
48824. By Mr. frlunro.-You are quite satisfied with what it is at present-you do not want any
increase ?-I should be ashamed to ask it.
The tvitness withdrew.
RobertJobnston,
2nd Mayl883.
Robert Johnston sworn aml examined.
48825. By the Chairman.-\Vhat are you ?-An importer.
48826. An importer of candles and soap ?:-Candles only.
48827. How long have you been in that business ?-About twenty-two year~.
48828. In this colony ?-In this colony. .
48829. How does the taritr in this colony affect your business in that article ?-It affects it prejudi-
Cially, certainly. ·
48830. In what way does it affect it prejudicially ?-It has diminished the imports.
48831. It reduces the quantity of your imports ?-It has reduced it.
48832. Does it interfere with the profit upon what yen do sell ?-Yes it does.
48833. Considerably ?-:More or less.
48834. You have to be satisfied with less profit upon what you do sell?-Yes.
48835. And you have to sell a great deal less than you did previously ?-Yes.
48836. What do you wish the Commission to do in relation to this matter ?-In regard to the Tariff,
especially this duty of 2d. I have a decided opinion that the duty has raised or steadied the market, but at
a· high level. It has steatliecl the market prices and preventccliluctuation, but the prices that have been
ruling since the duties were imposed have been more steady than in former times under a free-trade tariff.
48837. Is that a disadvantage to you as an importer ?-It.is a disadvantage.
48838. It does not enable you to make the speculations that a fluctuating market gives you ?­
Certainly, it has stopped speculation, but it has steadied market prices at a high level to the consumer' .
-±8839. Will you give me what the level of prices was before the duty, and the level now !-They
ran""ecl from 8d. up to, during my time, ls. 4cl., during the last twenty-two years. · ··
" 48840. Of conrse they have been much higher than ls. 4cl. ;luring some periods of that time ?­
I think the price of the candle that I import-what, is called the "Neva candle'' was for a short time
ls. 5cl. during a tempomry scl1rcity, and but fbr a very short time.
48841. That was the price before the duty ?-Yes.
48842. What is the level of the price now ?-The price during the last few years-say during the
last five years-of imported candles generally (I do not refer to Nevas) has been between 8cl. and 9d., until
recently, when they have been a little dearer. ·
· 48843. Leaving out the present moment as being an abnormal state of the market, which is allowed
by the manufacturers as well, and taking your statement of 8d. and 9d. as the ordinary level, how do you
call that a high level as against Bel. to Is. 4d. ?-1£ there were no duty the level would be lowered, that is
my meaning.
48844. But that was not yom statement. Your statement was that the dnty fixe(l them at a high
level, it had steadied the market at a high level ; what you meant to say was that it had fixed them at a
lower level than originally, but still higher than they would ·be if there were no duty at all-is that what
von meant to say ?-Exactly.
· 48845. How much lower would they be, in your judgment, if the duty were removed ?-I should say
in the last eight or ten years imported candles such as Dntch, Belgian, or French, excepting Nevas,
could have been imported and sold in boxes at a profit from 7c1. to 7~d. a lb.
48846. What have they been sold at ?-They have been sold in those times at about 8~d. duty paid,
that is 6~d. in bond. . ,
48847. If they were sold at 6~cl. in bond, and paid 2d. duty, it does not require much stretch of
imagimtion to know that they would sell at a great profit for 7·~d., without the duty ?-The price at home
a few years ago, for a series of years, when tallow was very cheap and when these Dutch and Belgian
candles were being invoiced, was as low as 5!d. f. o. b., in London.
48848. Can you explain to the Commission how it is that all the evidence not only taken here
to-clay from manufacturers and also from yourself, but also taken from the purchasers in country districts,
goes to prove that the imported candle, though there is 2cl. a pmmd upon it, is never more than a penny
above the colonial one ?-I did not catch the question, please repeat.
48849. How is it that the imported candle is not more than 2d. a pound more than the colonial,
seeing thflt this duty is 2cl. a pound ?-They have been sold, I suppose, for som0years at a loss.
48850. What is the object of the importers in selling cru:tdles at a loss ?-I cannot say ; they have
got to keep the manufacturers going at home the same as they have here.
48851. Under what obligation a-rc our importing honses to keep English houses going before keeping
onr manufactories going ?-From the manufacturer's point of view, of course, I cannot say.
48852. I do not ask that ; you say the importers here must keep the manufacturing houses going in
England. I ask you what obligation are they under to do that ?-I do not say so. I do not say the
importers must keep the manufactnrers going. I say the mannfactmers must keep the works going at home ;
they send their surplus stocks out here, I suppose sometimes at a loss, sometimes with the hope of making a
little profit ; they are making a little profit now.
48853. Is that answer of yours that they have been sold at a loss, the only answer you have to give
to the fact that the cost of the English article is only half the difference made by the duty between it and
~he colonial ?-No, I think it is the cost of the English article, with the full duty.

1445
48854. No, all the evidence we have got goes to show that the English article is a penny a pound: RubertJobnston,
dearer than the colonial, whereas if it were the whole of the duty dearer it would be 2d. a pound dearer? 2n~~~;'i!i82,
-I cannot explain that.
48855. That is the evidence of miners who purchase the candles. I have been looking through the
evidence just now. It is the evidence of the manufacturers as to the prices in l\!Ielbonrne to-clay and
for many years past, and it is your own evidence also as to the relative prices of candles now ?-I
suppose the answer to that is that between those candles which only have a penny difference between the
locally-made article and the imported article virtually there is only a penny difference in quality.
48856. But I am assuming candles are the same quality; because, if you b1·ing in the question of quality
you knock the question of price out of time altogether-you eau only calculate prices upon equal qualities.
I take the evidence of Mr. Kitchen, for instance, upon the quality of candle which is 8~d. in bond and
lO~d duty paid, and the quality of that which he makes to take the place of it in the market, and sells
at fi·om 9~d. to 9~d. as the case may be. Now that is only a cli:ffereuce of a penny a pound between the
two articles, though the duty is 2d. a pouncl ?-The consumers Illi'tintain by the price they pay that
the imported candle is better than the colonial-made article ; they have always maintained that, and
backed up their opinion by giving the difference in price.
48857. Do you wish the Commission to suppose that if the 2d. were reduced upon that particular
article selling at lO~d. to-clay, or if the duty were off, that article would sell for 8lcl. ?-I believe it would
upon the average. I believe it would sell for 8~d. over a series of months or a series of years. The competition
among importers would be so increased that we should have hundreds of thousands of boxes
coming out here. I think the public would gain over a period of time in the duty.
48858. Have you got a list of prices that you have been selling at, say over a period of twenty
years, ten years before the duty, and ten years since ?-No, I have not a list with me.
. 48859. Could you furnish the Commission with your price-list, say over that period ?-Some books
of my old firm have been destroyed, some of the books about twenty years ago. The firm has been changed
several times, but I shoulcllike to say that the price we have received for candles-the candle that I represent
has, on the average, been about lld. to ls. during the last twenty years. That is the average price.
48860. That is the Neva, the particular one you sell ?-Yes, and for other candles, Belgium and
Dutch candles, the average price during teu years has been 9d. to lOd. I know for a fact that thousands
of boxes have been sold at 8d. a lb.
48861. Now, suppose this duty were removed, and you got bMk your old trade in candles, how
many more hands would you employ in your business ?-I do not think I should employ any more. Perhaps
one or two more, certainly that, but not more. Including draymen and all I s.nppose two or three more.
. 48862. By ll'lr-. J.1fclntyre.-I want to understand the "steadying of the market." You say the
market has been " steadied " by this duty?-Yes. .
48863. That is as compared with former times when there were more difficulties in communication
with the old country than there are now ?-Certainly, there is no possible analogy between the present
times and former times.
48864. Without this duty at all, would not this market be a steady market ?-It would.
48865. On account of the facility of comm1mication ?-Yes.
48866. Then that point goes to the wall ?-There would be rnore or less :fluctuation, but it would
not last more than six weeks or two months; it is quite impossible for anything to come up to a fancy price
now.
48867. You told the Chairman that during the last seven or eight years camUes could have been
sold at 7~d. a lb.?-Yes, not the Nevas, but candles that compete with Messrs. Kitchen's or the Apollo.
4!:l868. The Nevas are all a superior quality ?-Superior altogether, they do not compare ~with the
others.
48869. The candle you speak of now is equal, in your mind, if not superior, to the colonial article
during the last seven or eight years could have been selling for 7!d. a lb. in your opinion ?-Yes.
48870. What have they been selling at ?-About 8id. to 9d., sometimes 9~d., and as low
as 8d.
48871. The consumer all this time has been paying from ld. to lid. a lb. in excess of the value of
the article ?-Undoubtedly, I entirely believe that.
48872. What is the home price of tallow at present-of the ordinary kind ?-About 46s. to 47s.
per cwt.
48873. Give us the price of c::mdles per pound ?-There has been a rise dming the last two or
three months, and I have been told they are as high as 7 d. a lb.
48874. In England?-Yes.
48875. Ordinary candles ?-Yes.
48876. What is that class of candles selling at here now ?-At from lOd. to IO!cl.-say about
10~d.
48877. The people in the colony where tallow is so plentiful are paying about 3td. a lb. more than
in the old country ?-They are paying 2! a lb. more, because the cost of importing and freight ancl insurance
is, in round numbers, about ld. a lb,
48878. You have been here during the evidence to-day ?-Yes.
48879. And heard the evidence about the qua,lity ofthe colonial article ?-Yes.
48880. Can you explain how it iB that the importers 'still continue to import so largely and sell at a
penny a pound more than the colonial article if the quality is no better than the colonial ~trticle ?-I think
the public at large, miners and domestic consumers, ancl the trade and everyone else admit that the imported
candles are superior, and they give a better price for them.
48881. Have you ever tested the two candles, one alongside the other, both good and carefully
protected from draughts, and so on, to see which burned the longest ?-I think I have.
48882. What was the result ?-As far as my own candle goes, they were about the same, but that
is only one test among a score of the quality of the candle.
48883. That is the first one. Now, as to the longevity of the candle, they nre about alike ?-Yes,
all candles are about alike.

R~b~~t Jo)Jnsto~, 48884. What was the ilh1mfuating power of the one as compru:ecl with the other ?-As regards the
2n~~i:fy"f~sa. Neva candle, my own, it is very much superior, both as to durability and light. Between other imported
candles and the colonial Petrolines and Apollos there is but little difference.
48885. Did yon try the de Ronbaix against the colonial ?-I cannot remember.
48886. You are just speaking now of your best candle ?-Yes.
48887. Under that statement, it would appear that the local manufactured candle compares very
favourably even with your best Neva candle; was that so ?-It is the first time I ever heard that.
4!5888. It is your own evidence, if I understand you right ?-The difference in Petroline and Apollo
candles for the last three or four years has been ~d. a pound.
48889. I understood you to say that the length of burning of the two candles was about equal to the
N eva candle. Then you tested it against the colonial one ?-Yes.
48890. The Neva was the same, as to length, but its illuminating power is better ?-Certainly it
was.
48891. Have you any idea of the comparative illuminating power over the other ?-No, I never tested
that.
48892. It is merely your own judgment?--Yes. Of course I test it by the opinion of consumers­
! get that every day.
48893. Suppose that this duty were reduced 1d. a pound, would the consumer get the benefit of that
1d. ?-I think the consumer would, and the revenue would get the benefit of it, too.
48894. Would the revenue lose much ?-There would be more candles imported.
48895. But would th~e importation not interfere with the established industries of the colony, which
of course is a matter to be considered ?-It would to a certain extent interfere, if very large quantities came
out; it would interfere with the colonial industry.
48896. \Vould it not be an impetus for those colonial manufacturers to endeavour to meet the demand
and endeavour to keep out the imported article ?-Certainly.
48897. By Mr. Munro.-What is the average price-you say lld. to 12cl. for twenty years-can
you give us an average for five years under free-trade and five years since ?-No; I have not got the exact
figures ; I only talk from memory, but I know the average before the duties were imposed at all, that is
before the Id. a pound duty was about Is. a pound.
48898. What has been the average since the duty of 2d. a pound was imposed ?-It has been, I
suppose, about 10d. to IO~d.
48899. Then the price of candles is really c:[leaper with the duty of 2d. a pound than before ?-The
price of tallow has fallen in the meantime immensely.
48900. That is not an answer, is it. You say, before the imposition of 2d. a pound, the average price
for five years was Is., while since the imposition of 2d. a pound, the average price was 10d.; that is your
evidence, is it not; so that, in point offact, candles are cheaper since the 2d. a pound than they were before?
-It was owing to the price of tallow; that is the sole secret of it.
48901. B.lf the Chainnan.-Have you anything further to add ?-I think the colonial makers have
an advantage in the price of tallow in the colony as compared with the London price, that is to the extent of
about £8. a tou. They have that protection at present, and that that has been a general difference is
:1cknowledged by the trade.
48902. £8 a ton between t

c
1447
are sold at 10d., that would be an average of 7-§-d., whereas with the duty now, 100,000 boxes would be sold RobertJohuston,
at 8d.; that is when candles are cheap. I refer to three or four years ago. In that case the public would 2 n:~::;'i:iss.
have been the gainers.
48918. Of course, upon those figures, you make it out that the public would get the advantage
of !d. upon each pound ; but you might easily take another set of figures (or anyone else could) and show
that the public lose ~d., or even I d. a pound, by the fluctuations of the market ?-I do not think the public
would lose now; I think they would gain.
The witness ~vithd,rew.
The Hon. Thomas Loader further examined.
The Witness.-One statement has been made by the last witness that I think requires to be The Hon.
explained. If you would allow me I should like to explain it. It is one of the utmost importance. The last T~':?'~~;~~a:•
witness mentioned that the clifferenee between the price of tallow in this market and London gave a duty
or protection of £8 per ton in favor of the local manufacturer. I am prepared to say that he is mistaken.
He has spoken from imperfect information. That such a difference as that exists between the two markets
is quite true, but it is not ~~protection in favor of the local manufacturer, and it is necessary for me to·
explain why. In dealing 1vith a ton of tallow, the local manufacturer obtains therefrom about 52 per cent.
of stearine, which he ean manufaetnre into a candle of a quality equal to the European makes that come to
this market. The remaining 48 per cent. consists partly of an article called oleic for which there is no
market in Australia; 48 per cent. of the whole is oleic, and that oleic has to be shipped to London, where
under many adverse circumstances of freight and packages, leakages, and so forth, it barely nets the candle
manufacturer more than £13 a ton, so that the total quantity of one ton of tallow yields 52 per cent., which
is manufactured into candles on this side of the water, and 40 per cent. which has to be sold at the net
result of about £13 a ton in London, while the manufacturer here has given £36 a ton for the whole of it.
So you see how dangerous a witness, who states from imperfect information, may be to a great industry,
unless his statements be explained away.
48919. By l~fr. J.lfclrttyre.-We had the same evidence, this morning, from Mr. Kitchen exactly
word for word, given by the late witness, Mr. Johnston ; are we to understand .that a ton of tallow here is
not the same as a ton of tallow at home ?-I am not speaking of a ton of crude raw tallow; I speak of a ton
of tallow andlts products. ·
48920. The products of a ton of tallow must be alike here and in London ?-I beg your pardon,
there is a great difference.
48921. Are we to understand that a ton of tallow, which you buy here for your manufacture, is not
the same as a ton of tallow in London ?-The tallow is all the same, but the products are in different
markets. The product in this market, as I have explained, has 40 per cent. of it to be conveyed to
Europe; but if the same tallow is distilled in Europe the product is there and has not to be conveyed, and
if it goes home in the form of tallow it goes under the most favourable form, and there it is sold in the
market where the oleic brings £26 a ton. If it were possible for you to guarantee to the manufacturers here
£26 a ton for all their oleic, they could then do without the duty upon candles. But it is exactly the
difference that they must lose about £13 a ton upon all their oleic sent home.
48922. By the Chairman.-That is 40 per cent. of the tallow ?-That is 40 per cent. of the tallow;
and, therefore, if they pass through 100 tons or tallow through their stills they have to send home about
38 or 40 tons to Europe, where they only net about £13 a ton.
48923. By Mr. _ilf'clntyre.-It does not alter the facts at all ?-I do not want it to alter the
facts.
48924. We the consumers, at all events, are paying for the fact that we cannot utilise our oleic
here ?-That is quite right. I only wanted to explain Mr .• Johnston's evidence.
The witness 'Withdrew.
John Lorimer sworn and examined.
489 25." By the Chairman.-You represent the firm of Connell, Hogarth, and Company ?-Yes.
48926. Is this firm an importer of candles ?-We do not import many.
48927. Have you any evidence to add to the evidence that Mr. Johnston gave on this article of
candles ?-No.
48928. Are you content to accept his evidence for your firm a~ being a sufficiently reliable repre.
sentation of the case from an importer's point of view ?-Our interest as importers is so small that I
could not speak of it in that light at all. We are merely distributors of candles ; we buy in this
market mostly, it does not pay us to import.
48929. Then the duty does not affect you ?-Not at all.
48930. You do not 1>'ish to propose any alteration in the duty ?-No, it does not affect us.
48931. By ~wr. 11fuwro.-Do you find it quite as profitable now to buy locally as you did to
import ?-Yes ; the profit is more regular to huy in the market.
48932. The only advantage would be in a large shipment to make up a freight hy shipping
candles ?-Sometimes we would huy them expecting to make a profit in this market, and when they
came to hand we might make a loss. It is a very dangerous article to deal with.
48933. By Mr. Mcintyre.-As an importer you say the reduction of the duty would not affect
you ?-Not a bit.
The witn,ess witl

1448
THURSDAY, 3RD MAY,1883.
Present:
JAlliES MIRA!IIS, Esq., M.L.A., in the Chair;
.T. Bosisto, Esq., M.L.A,., I J. Mcintyre, Esq., M.L.A.,
F. 8. Grimwade, Esq., D. Munro, Esq.,
Hon. James Lorimer, M.L.C.,
J. A. Woodward, Esq.
DYERS' MATERIAI.S.
John Ro bertson sworn and examined.
Jobnllobert3on, 48934. By the G'hairman.-vVhat are you ?-A dyer and scourer.
llrd 1\!ay !883. 48935. Your place of business is in Lonsdalc street ?-Yes.
48936. How many hands are you employing ?-Fourteen females and thirteen males.
48937. You are anxious to put some question before the Commission in connexion with the matter
of soap, which, I believe, largely enters into your business ?-Yes.
48938. What is it you desire to say ?-I consider the duty should be off oil soap, considering the
high price at home; aml the colonial soap being so much cheaper, we could not use it, even if we wanted to.
Our soap costs at home £30 a ton. .
48939. You use oil soap ?-Yes, that is what all dyers are obliged to use.
48940. You say in your paper that it costs 2d. a lb. duty, and cannot be made in the colony suitable
for dyeing ?-Yes, it cannot be made.
48941. Have you tried getting it here ?-Yes, and I have given them samples, but I cannot get it
made. I have usecl oil soap that the Apollo Company made here, but it is only fit for coarse work, it is not
fit for fine work.
48942. How much of this do you use in the course of the year· ?-Not a Yery great de>tl. We
should use more were it not for the expense of it..
48943. But how much ?~-I do not think more thrm about 30 cwt.
48944. Is that the only nrticle you specify ?-I think they should be a little easier upon the
machinery here, in getting out the flrst machine in a trade like ours, where fashions change, and the appli•
ances have to be altered according to the fashions and the make of the material.
48945. You return the value of your plant at about £2,500 ?-Yes.
48946. Has any portion of that been made in the colony ?-Yes.
48947. Half of it-would half of it be colonial made and the other half imported ?-I think about
that. I may say that some machines I got from home, and got machines made off them here stronger, and
stronger than the imported, but !1S the f

1449
duty th11t is upon fhinnels-is that wha,t you propose ?-No, I do not want it at 11H, but I do not John Robertson,
. continued.
see wlw it should
3rd May 1883,
48961. That is m10thel' question. Is there 11ny other matter that you do
except what
I mentioned about the machineTy.
48962. By "~fr. Afclnty1·e.-Suppose this idea of yours were Cltrriml out, and that we shonltl put a
tax upon all the dyed i1annel importell, would the Jyers' trmle be increased at all ?-Yes,
48963. \Vonld mauy more men be ernploye(l ?-Yes, a many more.
48864. Have you any idea of how many more men would be employed if all dyed material were
taxeLl ?-I will give you an ideo,. Sargootl's people sent to me, he w

Joim Robertson,
1450
40001. Have they no special names ?-No, entirely different names, according to the different
ar~~~;~~sa. fashions. For instance, I have a steam arm which is a advantage in finishing. I threw away
altogether the imported one and got them made about three or four times the weight.
49002. Could

1451
49028. But also the value?-Yes ; the true value is not there, am! that falsifies our account of J. P. Goutstone.
continued, ·
exportations. Srcl Mn.y 1883.
49029. How coul1l that be rectified-what menus have the Customs of knowing the true value?-
Thev have no means of checking it.
" · 49030. Except they compel the exporters to prolluee t.he invoice:'\ ?-If they matle them, in the
decbratiou for export, declare that the value was a correct one as well as Lleclaring that those goods were
not the produce of Victoria, I think that might apply.
49031. For the year 1881-that is the last year for which I have a fnll record-the total weight of
tea put down as exported is 4,111,838 lbs., and the valne pnt opposite to that is £292,606, equal to nearly
ls. 6d. a pound ; now, in your opinion, that tea w>ts not worth >tnything like so much as £292,000 ?-It would
not be worth anything like two-thirds of that money, tnkiug the avemge of the imports of tea into this
colony.
49032. By Mr. Mclntyre.-Just follow that up. What object can the exporters have in overvaluing
these articles ?-Nothing more than to exhibit they are doing a very large trade in really fine-class
teas, which is not the case.
49033. But does it affect any one in the community, that they should please themselves by this?­
I do not know that it does, except that it is merely an adverti.'!ement to the local grocer to a certain extent.
The Customs returns, of course, >tre reliable as to weight, but, I think, anybody in the trade here would
know that average of our tea exported does not reach ls., let alone l s. 6d. a pound, upon the average.
49034. Then the colony would not stand so high in the export list ?-Not in tea, at any rate.
49035. ~What is your ide>t in regard to a reduction of the duties upon te>t-wonld a reduction benefit
you in business ?-It would le>tve us fJ;.Ce, in all senses, to work.
49036. What do you mean by that '1-0f course we should be free of h>tving to >tdnnce money for
duties in the first place. In the second place, as to blenders and packers, we should be able to blend
through the whole house, whereas the trade now are rather doubtful of anything unless it is delivered
stmight from bond. ~ ~
49037. If" reduction in duty were nmde would the public get the benefit of it ?-Judging from
experience, when the last 3d. a pound was taken off, I say decidedly not. I think the grocers' profits on
tea,, to-clay, are very considerably in adYance of wlmt they were before the duties were taken off. I do not
think the consmners got one fraction of benefit from it.
49038. vVhat was tile buaiuess of this remark. Your business consists of "what we call blending
and packing under recognised brands." Now, by blending, the Commission understands a mixing of lots
of clitierent teas, grown in different places ?-Yes.
4!)039. As to any one here importing the article from those places direct, I can tmderstand it, but
what; do you mean by "packing under recognised Lrands." Do you brand the article you blend here as the
Oriental Tea Company's JYiixtm·e, :Melbourne ?-We brand it as either "Roy>t! Blend," "Standard,"
" Challenge," or " Universal,'' as the case may be.
4!)040. Is there a company outside the colony that you are aware of?-N o.
49041. Then the sole business of the company is to import tea here >tml to blend it here. Why cla
not they say that the operation takes place in Melbourne ?-All onr advertisements have th!tt te:1dency.
4!)042. What tendeucy ?-They have our address upon them, as the central place of blendmg for the
colonies.
49043. Does not the packing case convey the ide>t to the puLlic that they are imported in the shape
that they sec them ?-No, the package is totally different from the imported case in every way-that is
both the wrapper and the package.
4!)04±. Are those brauds known in the home market ?-No, they are known where we intro(luce
them only. ·
49045. They are your own brands ?-They are our own brands, registered.
49046. There is no imitation of any brands ?-There is no imitation of any brands. We guarantee
those brands as being up to st>tndard qualities.
49047. And it is recognised then, throughout the trade now, 'ohat a certain brand upon one of the
Oriental tea chests, conveys a certain class of tea to them 7-It does. It is known all through Victoria
tlmt the "Univers!tl" tea is the accepted 2s. mixture.
49048. Have you any trouble in denling with the midtlle men of the colony ?-Decidedly, a great deal
with the grocers.
49049. What is the n>tture of the trouble ?-They give various grouuds for it.
49050. But what is the trouble in the first place ?-If they offered our known brands and people
came to like them and to know them, there is nothing to prevent a greengrocer, or a baker, or anyone else
supplying them as well as the grocer·. Then, secondly, they say we do not allow them a sufficient margin
of profit between our fixetl price and their distributing prices, although it varies from 25 to 33 per cent.
49051. Do they put obstacles in the way of your distribution?-Yes, and in very peculiar ways in
some cases.
49052. By that means yon do not get your brands into the general grocers' hands at all?-We get a
good few of them. We may have, in Victoria, 300 or !lOO customers, but we cannot them into the hands
of the large grocers, because they say, " We must get our own article into onr customers' hands. We
should lose our distinctive character as grocers ifwe sell yonr teas." I may say th>tt 99 out of 100 storekeepers
in the colony are not grocers, they have not been brot1ght up to the t-rade and they know nothing of
tea blending, and their idea of what teas should go together is very snmll indeed.
49053. Do you convey the idea that most grocers wish to Llend their teas themselves ?-Yes,
they clo.
49054. Is that the reason they do not want to use your blends ?-They clo not object to buy them
in bulk. In fact I have known them to bny our packet teas and pull onr wrappers off and put their own on.
49055. And u!le your tea ?-And use our tea. ,
49056. Could there Le any way of stopping that interference with your particular L11siness ?-We
cannot, because if they choose to buy our te>t and open it, we c>tnnot stop them.
49057. But if the public is deceivetl, they mny not, get so good a blend as you give thOln ?-We have
l19 me!tllfl of stopping it, lmt if they falsify our brands we h&ve. We had two cases where some parties

.r. P. G?ulstune, were pack;ng nncler the "Orient Tea Companv'' bnand ; we stopped t.hem; and another person who put
zr~ 0 :f~~uf~im. them under our " Challenge'' and "Stamlard''lJrauds, npon our bringing them before the party who was
packilJg them, he at once stopped it.
-19058. Is your trade increttsing ?-It io greatly increasing, though since we st.arted I cannot tell you
how many rival firms have st.arted packing, nncl others buy teas from Chinn packed there. But the trade
has gmdnally increased, last yettr more especially QUl' trade increased a good 25 per cent.
49059. Are there a number of tea blenders in the city ?-Yes, a number now, but none npou the
same principle as onrsel ves. vV e select teas to suit our brands, but I think the majority merely pack wh!;tt
suits their stocks.
49060. By JYfr. Grimwade.-As to passing those entries and pHtting the incorrect value upon them,
are you not liable to a fine ?-No, not at all, the Customs ha.ve no control ovet· it. They only recognise
the quantity of toa at a fixed rate of duty. '
49061. In passing entries of other things, if you pass them at a wrong value, you are liable to a
penalty?-That is in importing.
49062. Or exporting ; is not that so, Mr. Drysdale? If you overvalue, either carelessly or intentionally,
are you not liable to a fine ?-(Mr. Drtjsdale )-I do not know that you are, but the clerk has to be
careful in getting the val!le.
49063. B.t! the Chai1·man.-Bnt if the duty had been an ad valorem and the drawback were
according to valu3, you would. have to mo,ke a declaration according to value?-Yes, but it is only upon the
qnantity.
49064. Does that apply only to import ?-It applies both to drawback and to expm"t entries.
49065. B!l the Hon. Jrfr. Lorime1·.-I see there is a penalty•for false declaration, and I see upon the
baek of the entry it is plain that the value is part of the declaration T!te witness)-! do not think the
value is part of the declaration.
49066. Bp Mr. Jffcintyre.-There is the penalty of perjury ?-But there is no penalty in this case.
There is a form of declaration upon the back of the export entry.
49067. B,.J the Hon. Mr. Lorime1·.-Yon have had large experience as a tea merchant, have you
not ?-I have been engaged in the. trade now about twenty-seven or twenty-eight years.
49068. In the direct trade as well as in the mixing business both.
49069. Selling original packages ?-Yes.
49070. Can you give us your views as to whether the public are better protected with a duty upon
the ten,, with Customs supervision attendant on the duty, or if it were altogether free?-With regard to
teas, I think they are very much better protected by the Customs.
49071. Will you explain the practice, when tea is bonded, with regard to weights ?-Generally they
take a percentage of the number of packages forming a line, then m1lculate the gross and tare, and take the
average.
49072. And that is maue out upon the certificates ?-Yes.
49073. Then the tea being sold in bond, the public are protected by the weights upon the certificates?
-They are.
49074. Is it not a fact that the trade generally prefer a duty on that account ; it prevents dispute?
-They do.
49075. The weights arc guaranteed by the Customs supervision ?-That might apply more
especially to China packages, which are pretty nearly of an average weight in a break; but with Indian
packages, in the same parcel, even if it is only a matter of twenty chests from a garden, I have found
them to vary from twelve to twenty pounds in the weight of a package. ·
49076. Do not you think the risk of adnlteration would he also increased if there were no duty?­
I do not think it. In the time I have been in business in the colony, except in the early times,Ihaveseen
very little adulteration; some came in black tea.
49077. But after it has come in-after it gets out of bond ?-I do not see how it is to be do1,1e.
49078. A grocer could do it ?-I do not know by whttt means.
49079. It is impossible for the wholesale merchant to do it just now, under the existing plan?­
I think it is as possible for him as for the grocer.
49080. How could he do it ?-That is what I say, I do not know how it could be done.
49081. If a man had it in his warehouse would not some system of adulteration be possible by
mixing ?-Mixing is not aclnlLeration. Aucl if you sell a mixed tea, and are dealing fairly with a man, you
sell by a sample of the mixture. As a rule tea is sold by sample, and you bny the mixed sample of tea.
It is done, I believe, in the city-that merchants' packages are used for refilling again, and that a commoner
tea may go out in a package that has conveyed, to this port, a very much finer quality of tea. For
instance, I may say that ten may be imported by a house here at a cost of 2s. a pound, well known in the
market as a :first crop tea, and those packages would be refilled by a commoner tea, and sent out as first
crop tea.
49082. vVould not thnt be much easier to do if there were no Customs supervision ?-The amount
of that done, I think, would be very small.
49083. Would not the plan of free tea facilitate it ?-I do not think that it would-it might possibly
-but I do not think it would be done that way. · ·
1452
Tlte witness withdrew.
.rohn Whiting,
3rdMay 1883,
John Whiting sworn and examined •
49084. By the Cl1ai1·man.-What are you ?-Importer.
49085. Of tea ?-Of teas and oilmen's stores.
49086. Tea is t.he question we are on just at the present moment. Did you hear the evidence of Mr.
Goulstone ?-Yes.
49087. Have yott anything further to add to the eviclence he has given ?-I agree v,1th very much
that Mr. Goulstone stated. I have a very decided opinion that to remove the duty from tea woulll be in
many ways injuriocts.

1453
49088. Have you any reason to assign for that beyond which Mr. Goulstone stated ?-I consider· that
i is a very important matter that the Custom-house should have the supervision of teas, and the right of
opening and examining samples as they come, anti as to seeming the q mdity.
49089. And yon are of opinion that the duty fncil(tates · tho!-'e operations ?-I consider that
retaining a duty tmd enabling the Customs to open the P"ckages and to examine for themselves is a guarantee
t.o the trade and to the public generally that we have some good results.
49090. Do I understand you to mean thM if the uuty were removed the Customs wonld not retain
the right to look after the quality ?-I suppose the Customs or the Adulteration Act could be put into
operation so as to attain the same ends.
49091. Whether the duty were removed or not?-·whether the clnty were removed or not.
49092. I am quite aware that under the present laws and regulations there would not be the same
control over free goods as there is over articles paying duty as tea does. Still tea being, as I nnderst~,nd,
from the gentlemen engaged in the trade, an article peculiarly liable to adulteration, it would be possible
to ru.ake a law to seeme ample supervision, would it not ?-I do not think so. I think the remarks of Mr.
Lorimer have been very important with regard to keeping teas in bond as much as possible, and
them direct from bond.
49093. Then it is your opinion that the retention of the duty f'aciHtates the care of the Government
over the qnality of the article ?-I clo, certainly,
49094. Does that apply to any other article that you import as well as tea ?-Not. so much in other
:1rticles, bec:1nse tea, having so many qualities, it can be reduced in value by artificial means of various kinds.
It i~ very important that an article like tea whose valne extends over perhaps 1s. or 2s. a J30nncl, should
be guaranteed to the public that they get their te:1 in the state in which it is imported.
4H095. From the revelations which have come out to the public jnst lately it does not appear that
the public have much guarantee in this matter of tea; would the same principle apply to coffee, for instance?
-No. ·
490~6. There is not the same facility to adulterate coffee ?-Co:ffees are sized. They are known
as No. 1, No. 2, and irregular beans known as "tryage" taken from it, so that iu coffee you can tell at
once from its appearance whether it is No. 1 or No. 2, on account of the size and quality.
49097. Have you anything further to add ?-No, not in reference to the matter of tea.
4D09R. B,IJ .1lb·. Bosisto.-The teas that the Chinamen go about selling, do you know whether there
is any oversight in reference to those teas; they are sent out, are thev not, in original packages, which they
seH from ?-A certain class of tea which they sell is Pouchong, or' faney tea, in packages as packed in
China.
It is sold here in the same state in which it is imported.
4!109~. As a tea merchant, have you ever examined them?-Yes, frequently.
49100. Are they considered to be such tea !ts is represented by th~ Chinamen ?-Yes, there is
nothing to harm in them.
Tl~e witness withd1·ew.
John Whlth1g•
continued,
3rd ~Iay 1883,
0ILniEN's STORES.
John Benjamin Whitty sworn lJ,nCl examinQcl.
4H101. By the Clwirman.-What are you ?-Manufacturers of oilmen's stores. John B. Wh!tty,
49102. Where is your factory situated '?-Fitzroy and Richmoml. 8rd May 1883.
49103, You have two establishments ?-Two establishments.
49104, How marry hands are you employing at the two places ?-From 100 to 120.
4910.5. Are there any particular lines that you mnke your specialities ?-Yes, starch and laundry
blue, and blacking are the leading lines.
49106. How many hands had you when you commenced ?-Wh13n we commenced I do not think we
]Jq,cl any.
49107. I do not quite understand thttt ?-We did not employ any at the first commencement.
49108. How long is that ago ?-Some thirteen years ago. :For the :first week or two, perhaps, we
hacl one hand on or two.
49109. By .Mr. Grimwade,--,-Did you work yourself ?-At the acf.ual commencement I suppose you
may say so,
49110. By the Chairman.-Do you employ any females ?-Yes, a large number .
. 49111. How many out of the 120 would be females ?-Perhaps 70, or between 70 and 80.
49112. At what age do you take those females on ?-Over twelve. The Act does not allow you to
tak€)
nnder twelve.
49113. Are they apprenticed ?-No, they are not apprenticed.
49114. Do you commence to pay them wages from the beginning ?-From the first clay they work.
49115. At what rate do they start ?-It all depends upon their age. A g1rl at twelve starts at 5s.
a week and gradually works up.
49116. Do they work piece-work ?-Some hands do aud some do not. When they can work piecewar~
we prefer it as most satisfactory both to employers and workm{)n.
49117. When they get np say to eighteen and nineteen years of age what is the average wage a
female c:1n earn t,hen ?-Perhaps £1 or 25s.
49118. As much as that ?---:-Yes.
49119. Have you any apprentices boys ?-No, no apprentices at all.
49120. Do you commence to pay the boys at:first?-Yes.
49121. At what rate ?-About 6s.
49122. And when they get to be twenty or twenty~olle
1
what can they earn ?-If they remain
pe1·haps they can earn up to £2~some £2 10s.
· 49123. Yon say, "If they remain>~-Do
rule, are eontinually shifting.
Do go to some other business
the occupation they are at and wish to do something else.
that respect.
generally leave
do not reJTiain very long as a
go to some other business, perhap·s get tired of
We nre under ~€,'Teat clifficnlties with boys m

John B. Whitty,
IXJntinued.
3rd Mc.y 1888.
14M
49125. Have you any difficulty in getting boys ?-'-Yes, there bt8 been a great clifficlllty these last
twelve months in getting boys and even gil"ls too.
4D126. Does the tariff interfere with your business in any way ?-No, I conld not say that it does.
It has benefited our business.
49127. Has there been recently any increase in the rate of duty imposed upon any of the lines you
manufacture ?-No, there is only one. I may say we get the great bulk of our raw material.iu free. There
is only one article and that is the oils ; the duty was formerly taken off. It was 6d. a gallon. Oil enters
very largely into our manufacturing purposes.
49128. What descriptions of oils are they ?-All descriptions of oil, castor oil, olive oil, in fact, all
descriptions.
49129. Do you mean to say it was put on again ?-It was put on again, 6d. a gallon.
49130. In 1879 I suppose that would be ?~In 1879.
49131, "Oils including castor or cod hver, when refined or for medicinal purposes, in bottles of a
quart or le,;s than a quart-quarts, 2s. ; pints, Is. ?-I speak of oil in bulk now.
. 49132. "Oils, animal and vegetable, other than black, cocoanut, cod, palm, in bulk, mineral, re:llned,
Gd. a gallon. Colza and olive !n bulk, 6d. a gallon." The duty you pay is 6c1. a gallon ?-Sixpence a
gallon.
49133. 'l'hat comes to a large item for you ?-In the course of twelve months it does. We use large
quantities of oil.
49134. Do ymt ask that that. should be removed ?-It would be an advantage, I believe, to the
manufacturing industries of the colony, not only to our own, but oil is largely consumed in every factory
almost.
49135. Are any of those oils made here ?-I think not. The duty was put on. There are such as
lubricating oils made here, but some of the ingredients for that purpose have to pay a duty coming in, I
believe. The duty, I believe, was put on for the benefit of an oil factory which started in Simpson's road
and which has since closed, having ceased working. I believe that was the reason why it was put on again;
and I may state that I believe the only oil they manufacturetl wits an oil from candle nuts from Fiji.
4913G. That is the only article which you use upon which you wish the duty off ?-I think that is
the only article we use largely that we pay duty upon.
49137, The others are so small ?-The others are so small that we have really nothing to complain
about.
49138. In relation to the articles that you make, have you any alterations in the duty to propose?­
No, I have no wish to alter the duties in any way.
49139. Are there any of the articles you manufacture that you could afford the duty to be taken off?
-I could hardly say that.
49140. What is the duty upon starch ?-Twopence a pound.
49141. And the duty upon blue ?-Twopence a pound.
49142. And the same upon blacking ?-No, I think 20 per cent. upon blacking and 20 per cent.npon
most of the other articles.
49143. And if those duties were removed or reduced, what would be the result ?-I presume the
result would he that the market here would he flooded with English goods.
49144. You have overcome the prejudice, have you not, that existed against Victorian goods ?-It
takes a long time, but we have overcome the prejudice that existed against colonial articles.
49145. And having done that, and having secured a good demand for your article upon its merits,
would not you be able now to hold your own against the imported article without a duty '1-We might be,
but the great risk would be that the market would be flooded with foreign goods. Only yesterday, as one
instance, a sale at Greig and JYiurray's, a lot of starch was sold at 4cl. a pound, so that some one loses a lot of
money over that.
49146. By .lJfr. Grirnwade.-Was that 4d. duty paid ?~I believe it was.
49147. Was not it in bond?-No, duty paid.
49148. By the Chairman.-What is the normal price of starch ?-Our price is 5d. We have been
manufacturing about eighteen months, ancl, previous to om starting, I think it was 6-!cl. a pound-from 6d.
up to 6itl.-I think the price was 6~cl.
49149. Is the starch you are supplying at 5d. a lb. manufactured from the same raw material as
the other ?-From the same raw material as Colman's or the best English makers.
49150. By Mr. Mclntyre.-Is starch a large item in your industry ·?-Yes, it is growing. We have
been only eighteen months manufacturing it.
49151. Have you increased the quantity you manufactured since you started ?-Yes, it is graclually
increasing.
49152. Has the duty of 2d. a lb. preventecl importation of starch in any degree ?-Yes, it must do
while we are manufacturing.
49153. How can you make that out. In the year 1870 the duty was put on. In 18G7 there was a
penny a pound paid upon starch and the total revenue upon it was £3,40G. U mler the present tariff the
revenue is more than double that, so there must be equa.lly as much and more than as much as there was
then. It is still coming into the country ?-The duty is doubled.
49154. But still the article is coming in ?-Still the article is coming in. I instanced 200 cases
sold yesterday. ' .
49155. Then wherein would your industry suffer if we take the duty off or revert to the penny a
pouml duty if there is the same quantity of stuff coming in now as came when it was a penny a pound.
How would your industry suffer by going back to a penny a pound ?-There would be more English hnported.
4915G. The fact stares you in the face here that under the two pence a pound duty about a similar
quantity came as at a penny a pound, in fact more comes in now than came in then when there was a penny a
pound on starch. It pays .£3,406 to the revenue undeT the peesent year. The year before last, that is 1880,
the revenue was £7,636, greatly more than double and 1881 £7,213, or more than double ?~If it was
£3,400 and now is £6,000 or £7,000 you can easily understancl why~the duty is double.
49157. Yes, but as much comes in now as came then ?-Then more is being used for we have been
manl:!fa,cturing 4ere the l!l.st eighteen months, and supplying the market 1
so if a:s much co:mes in now fi.S

1455
when we commenced as nmnufacturers, and besides that we suprJly the market it shows a great deal more John ll. Whitty,
conti-nued,
is being used. 3rd Mar 1883.
49158. Then it shows ihat your industry would not suffer. In 1880 it was £7,636, and in the
previous year it was £7,420. vVas anyone else manufacturing starch before you in the colony?-Yes.
49159. And in the face of that still the imported article came in here ?-Yes, and no doubt it will
for some time.
49160. Then how would your industry suffer in that pat·ticular branch of it by reverting to the
penny a pound duty ?-For the simple reason that the smaller the duty the more would be sent into the
market upon speculation.
· 49161. Then would it benefit you upon your principle to increase the duty ?-Xo, we would not ask
for it. In all things there is a medium.
49162. But upon your statement a great quantity comes in still and is sold at a low price?-Yes,
and no doubt if it were 4d. a pound, some would come still.
491G3. Then why not have a recluction in the duty ?-Merely to protect the industry in the
market here.
4916 1 1. I cannot follow you, you are not protecting the market if the article st.ill comes ?-Yes, I
differ from you, it is protecting it ; if the duty were a farthing a pound, stuff would be rushed into the
market here for speculation, it keeps the market here to a great extent for manufactures.
49165. If that were the case as you say, would not the consumer benefit thereby ?-That is a very
difficult question to answer. No one can answer that. It might or it might not benefit him. All I eau
say is, before we commeuceilmanufacturing, starch, eighteen months ago was 6d. a pound, and now the
consumer gets it for 5cl. .
49166. You do not wish to convoy to the Commission that it is on accmmt of your manufacture?­
I do not wish to convey anything, I state facts, and the Commission must draw their own conclusions.
49167. And next year it might be 8d. ?-The probability is it will not.
49168. A1·e you such a philanthropist that you wish to decrease your price ?-There is no philanthropy
in the matter at all. If a war should occur, or a scarcity of raw material, of comse the prices
would go up.
4$1169. You would increase the price of your article, would you not ?-That is very doubtful,
because a business man, who keeps his business properly under weigh, knows that the lower he sells the
more he sells-the better for himseif.
49170. But he keeps a margin sufficiently high for himself to protect himself ?-It is a general
tendency in all business to get as much as you cttn perhaps ; but it is not always business to charge so
high as that.
49171. Suppose we went back to ld. a pound duty upon starch, would it affect your business at
all ?-Yes, it would affect the industry.
4H172. In what way ?-It would create a greater competition with the home market.
49173. But would you continue to manufacture that article ?-That we could not say.
49174. Have you a doubt upon that ?--Yes; it is doubtful.
4!l175. Whether you would continue ?-There is a margin upon that now at the price we sell to pav
for working, perhaps; but I doubt if there was Id. a pound duty taken off at present, for the industry
is very young, that it would be continued.
49170. How m

1456
49195. Are you of opinion that there should be no variation in the duty, no matter what the starch
3r~~:;;dsea. may be made from ?-I may say that only that one class of starch comes in.
49196. But there is the maizena starch coming in, is there not ?-No, it is not brought in now ; it
is made in America.
49196A. There is wheaten starch coming in ?-I doubt it.
49197. By JYir. Gt·imwode.-Wlmt is Colman's starch ?_:_Rice.
49198. There is a starch called wheaten starch, is there not ?-[.No anstver.j
49199. By J.lh. Bosisto.-How do you judge between wl:leat starch and rice starch?-You find it
ou by using it.
49200. using it is the chief thing, is it not ?-Ye~. . ..
49201. Then you do not recommend any alteration of duty as between one starch and another?­
No, I cannot recommend any alteration in the duty any way, either to raise or lower it. Of course, if yon
raise it higher it would stop import more; but we do not wish to see it higher or lower at present ..
49202. You do not wish for a diiierential duty between one starch ~tnd another'?-No; I do not
see that it would be any advantage in any way ; all I can say is that these duties have given a great
impetus to all the manufactures that we produce and other8 also, and given it a tendency to make this
the chief manufacturing city of Australia.
49203. By the lion. ·.iJ.fr. Lorimer.-Whose starch that is imported competes most 'with yours?-
Colman's and Reckitt's, the two principal makers in Euglam~. ..
49204. Can you tell us the average cost of these starches in England ?-I could not say exact'ly; I
should think somewhere about £30 per ton. ·
49205. How much per pound is that ?-Threepence. .
49206. Then what percentage is 2d. 'llpon that ad vcol01·ern ?-It would vary, I should think, from
3d. to 3~cl.
49207. What is tlmt ctcl 1:alorem at 2d. a pound-is it not over 60 per cent. ?-It is high.
49208. Do you tell us seriously it is necessary to protect your industry, to have 66 per cent-could
not you do with a lower protective duty than that ?-At present I do not see that it could very well do
with a lower duty.
49209. You havetold us you were doing blacking with a duty of 20 per cent.?-Yes.
49210. How is it you can do that ?-Most of the material for blacking is prodnced in the colony,
but the raw material for starch has to be brought from India, China, Japan, and many other places,
making the cost much greater.
49211. Cannot you rice as cheap from India and Japan to Australia as you can to London?-
No, I think it would be clearer here, freight is so much clearer to any of our ports than it is to England;
and another difference is that in blacking every ounce or pound of the mw material we buy is used up, and
in making starch yon only get a small percentage of the material.
49212. Then you do not think you could do with a lower protective duty than 60 per cent. upon
starch ?-We should not wish to see it a,ltered at present.
49213. Have you made a calculation to see whethee you conld not do with a lower duty ?-There is
one thing, I see no benefit to accrue to anyone from it. If starch was so much higher when we commenced
manufacturing, >1nd is so much lower now to the public, the public woulll not benefit by the
reduction.
40214. What other article do you produce beside starch and blacking?-\Ve have a long list of
articles. We have blue, and ·washing powder, and baking powder, and all that description of goods.
49215. What duty have you upon them ?-Twenty pet· cent.
49216. Then starch is the only one that hns more than 20 per cent.?-13lue and starch; blue is 2d.
a lb.
49217. Do you manufacture pickles ?-No, we do not manufactme pickles. I may say that we pay
from 100 to 200 per cent. for wages more than they do in England. .
49218. Do you know the cost of blue in England ?-It is one of those articles that varies very much
from a low price up to a very high price.
49219. Wht1t is the ordinary average of the imported ?-I could not say the maker's price at home.
49220. I see the revenue has gone down very much npon it, so yon have succeeded in shutting it
out at2cl., it has gone down in three years from £1,000. In 1876 it was £1,982, and hest year it was only
.£800. Can you tell us the average price of the imported article ?-I could not; I do not know the maker's
price at home.
4[)221. What is your price ?-Onr price here is as low as 7~d.
':!9222. Then I suppose the English price might be whe,t-Gd. or 7d. ?-It is quite possible it might
be, but the price of English here was from lOcl. to 1s. previonroly.
49223. I suppose the 2d. is 40 to 50 per cent. upon the English price, is it not?--Yes, I suppose
it is.
49224. By Jlfr. Gri?mixtde.-Do you make starch from rice in bond?-Yes, we make it in bond.
49225. Do you get all the facilities you want ?-The Government have granted us all facilities.
49226. Have yon tried making starch from wheat ?-No.
49227. I suppose it requires a different plant ?-I suppose it requires a different plant.
49228. Is the yield from wheat as good ?-I suppose it is about the same, perhaps.
49220. B.1J the Chainnan.-You say that the price of starch at home is £20 per ton ?-About £30
I think, somewhere about £30, somewhere about 3~d., as nom as I can ji.1dge.
49230. The price of it in England?-Yes.
4[)231. How much dces it cost to bnd here ?-I have not gone into that.
49232. Without the duty ?-I think the charges come to one-third generally upon those things for
importing, one• third of the cost ..
49233. That would he a Id. a pouucl ?-I suppose it would, freight and charges, and all that.
40234. The price listed here was 4~cl. ?-I should think about 4d., or between 4d. and 1td·
49235. Has there been any rise in the price of starch at home lately ?-No. It has come clown. I
am not

1457
49236. Has there been any fall in the cost of starch at home ?-I do not think so; I do not think it :JohnB: Whitty,
continued,
has)lnctuatecl at all lately. SrdMay 1883,
4923'7. You stflte here that the price up to the last eighteen months when you commenced was 6~d.
in Melbourne?-Yes, ::mcl I think even over that. .
49238. Is that the wholesale price or the retail ?-That is the wholesale price.
49239. And your wholesale price is 5cl.?-Yes.
49240. What would that be sold for retail ?-I suppose G~cl., in some shops even Gel.
49241. Your own manufacture ?-Onr own manufacture is sold for Gel. in the shol)S.
49242. What would the imported art.icle be sold for that used to be 6td.?-It was sold for 8d. and
as high as 9cl.
49243. So that in reality the consumer here when he depended upon the importer paid 9cl. a pouncl
for an article that was bought for about 3~c1. in Euglaml ?-Yes, that would be the 1)rice then ; I do not
suppose starch would be any clearer ten years ago in England than it is now.
49244. BylVIr. Bosisto.-In my day I never knew it sold under 4~d. in large quantities ?-As near
as I can judge now starch is sold at £30 a ton ; some may be higher.
49245. By Mr. Mclnty1·e.-In England ?-Yes.
49246. By the Clu:tir·man.-How long has the duty of 2d. been on ?-Since 1871.
49247. And till you started eighteen months ago starch was not made here ?-Yes, formerly it was
made by the Kensington Company.
49248. And they have given up ?-I am not sure, but I have reason to think they are not manufacturing
at present.
49249. I want to understand about this price if I can. If the importers can afford to .sell it now at
5d.--?-They do not sell at 5cl., they sell at 5icl.
49250. By },fr. Bosisto.-Do not you think one is whenten starch and the other rice ?-No, both are
rice starch, Colman's and Reckett's starch is rice starch. All the starch imported here is rice starch.
4925L By the Chairman.-Is there any difference in the valne o£ rice and wheat starches r-
1 dare say at home there would be a little difference in the vo.lue.
49252. In favour of which ?-Rice.
49253. Wheaten would be clearer ?-No, I think wheaten would be a little less; but I may say that
the same reduction has taken place upon all our goods. Before we commenced blacking was sold at 6s. and
7 s. a gross and now it is sold at 4s.
49254. By ]J1r•.
flfelntyre.-What do you charge for a ton of your starch at present ?-About £40
-5d. a lb.~that would be about £45 or £46.
49255. And that would be selling in England ?-The same article would be selli:ng in Englaud at
about £30. But you must bear in mind that to the wholesale house a discount comes off our price, which
reduces it considerably.
4925G. Is there any discount off the home price ?-Yes, a small one.
49257. Just in proportion, I suppose ?-No, not in proportion.
40258. What is the difference ?-As much as 10 per cent.
49259. By the Hon. Jrir. Lm·imer.-Yon have not to pay clniy upon the rice ?-No, we are allowetl
to manufacture in bond, we could not manufacture if we had to pay £6 a ton duty upon the rice, it would be
utterly impossible.
492GO. Do the English manufactnrers pay duty ?-No.
49261. In that respect you are alike ?-In that respect we are alike. I may say that though our price
is £4G it comes 'clown very considerably in the discount. Our discount to the wholesale houses is very
liberal. We ha'l'e acloptetl the system of having only the one price, so that the larger shops can buy from
us, but the discount to wholesale houses is much larger.
4D262. By the Chairman.-And there is no difference between the wholesale houses at home now
when they have to compete with you more than there was before you sto.rted ?-No, I de~ not thiuk so, there
has been very little difference in the cost price at home and what it is at the present time, I :should not
think so.
49263. Is there anything further you wish to add ?-No, there is nothing else I wish to say. ·will
you allow me to add that though we have the privilege, which is a greut advn,ntage to us, to manufacture in
bond, we still have to pay £250 a year for a locker, which is a very large item.
T!te witness withdrew.
Arthnr Tilley sworn and exam.ine(l.
492G3A. By the Clwirman.-You are of Tilley aml Clttck ?-Of Tilley and Clack, Surrey-road,
South Yarra.
492G4. What are you ?-Toilet r;oap manufacturers and manufacturers of other articles of
perfumery.
49265. How many hunds are you employing ?-Oius is only a S1mll place ; we have six at the
present time, but I m.ay say that I do not wish to he examined upon our own industry. The examination
upon candles and soap took place yesterdo.y ; but it is only upon the a.t·ticle that we use in our manufactures
in the putting up of violet powder.
4!1266. What is it you wish to mention ?-The b:J.se of that is pnlYerised starch. Starch, as you
luwe heard from Mr. Whitty, is taxed to the extent of 2d. per pound. That comes to us as our raw material,
which at £28 a ton, that I paid for it years ago, comes to exactly 66;t per cent.
49267. Twenty-eight pounds you paid for sturch years ago ?-F~r pulverised starch sufficient for our
purposes. That was before the imposition of the duty. Since that of course we have had to pay a great
deal more. I want to point out that the duty upon violet 11owder is only 10 per cent.; and I wish you to
take notice that I would like to have an alteration, as a matter of right, in the tariff-a. higher rate of duty
p[acecl npon violet powder, so that one should equalize the other. Violet powder is taxed to the extent of
10 per cent., uuu the raw material is taxed to the extent of 66 per cent.
49268. How comes i1; that it is only lO per cent. ?-I am sme I do not know.
TARIFF.
8 y
Artbnr Tillcy,
3rd llfuy 1883.

Arthur Tilley,
continued,
ilrd lll:ay 1883.
1458
49269. You want the duty upon violet powder increased to 20 per cent. ?-I do not think 20 per
cent. would be sufficient; upon onr raw material we have to pay duty to the extent of 66 per cent., and
violet powder is 10 per cent. now.
49270. What do you pay for starch now ?-For pulverised starch at the rate of 5cl.
49271. That is £46 a ton. How long have you been paying that price ?-For a length of time,
now.
49272. For how long ?-We did, until Messrs. Lewis and Whitty commenced business, pay more for
it than we do at the present time.
49273. Tell us how much ?-I paid as much as 6td. a pound for it.
49274. Buying it wholesale ?-Buying it wholesale.
49275. Would it not pay you to import it, seeing it is sold in London for about £30? -It would cost
us at least £28 per ton in London, the duty upon it is 2cl. direct ; there is the outlay of the money besides
other expenses connected with it. It would pay us far better to buy here undoubtedly, under the present
state of affai1·s.
4927G. Cannot you get the same concession to manufacture in bond that :Mr. Whitty has ?-Unfortunately
there is only a small consumption for this article. It is used merely for the toilet. We employ at
present upon it, a couple of h•cls, perhaps ; if we were protected to a greater extent, or got our raw
material duty free, we might employ three or four more; it is a very minor affair, only I look upon it as a
matter of right that I ought to be placed in a better position.
49277. You admit that you are in a better position since Mr. Whitty commenced ?-Yes.
The witness ~oithdrew.
Josbua Proud,
Srd ~ray 1883.
Joshua Proud sworn and examined.
49278. By the Clwinnctn.-Are you a manufacturer of blacking?-Yes, of charcoal blat:lking and
coal dust.
49279. What do you wish to say in relation to the tariff ?-We are satisfied with it-that is all I
can say. There is only one thing, I believe-that in a good many instances the duty is not paid because
in the list it is put down as ground coal and charcoal, whereas it shoulcl be founders' blacking and coal dust.
They bring it in in a different name, I believe, and never pay any duty at all.
49280. There is a duty of 20 per cent., if it comes under that name-it is just the same duty upon
the one as the other, so altering the name does not evncle the duty ?-But if they bring it in in any other
name it comes in duty free. About eight years ago, when Mr. Cohen was Commissioner of Customs, a lot
of it was brought in here under the headings of coal products. I went and watched the vessel for a week,
ancl got two samples of it, and went to the Custom-house, and the officer there told me it was brought in as
free goods; and when I told him what it was he said I was to write to Mr. Cohen. I did so, and I kept a
copy of the letter, and three weeks afterwards I got a letter to say that the duty of 20 per cent. was paid
upon it, and that we had been misinformed; and the importers laughed at us, an ell found out afterwards that
they got infonnation from the Customs officers, and went and paid the duty. I would like to see it altered.
The ~oitness withdrew.
Emil Gutheil sworn and examined.
Emil Gutlleil, 49281. Ry the C!tairman.-What are you ?-Vinegar manufacturer.
ara l!by 1885 • 49282. Where are your works situated ?-In Prahran.
49283. How many hands are you employing ?-From eight to ten.
4U284. Iu what way does the tariff affect your industry?-We are satisfied with the way it is at
present ; we do not wish it altered.
49285. By Mr. J}fcintyre.-Could not you continue your business if it were altered in any way ?-
No, I do uot think so.
492RG. What induced you to start your business ?-The Gd. duty on vinegar.
49287. When did vou start ?-Twelve vears azo.
49288. And since "that time have you n~t established yom business so well that you can do without
duty ?-The duty was on before ever vinegar-making was established here. It is 3d. in England and 9cl.
in different colonies.
The witness withdrew.
EliasCnnlHf,
3rd Diay 1883.
Elias Cunliff sworn and examined.
49289. By the Clwi1·nwn.-What are you ?-Jam manufacturer.
49290. Where is your factory situated ?-Swanston-street, Melboume.
492!11. Hovv long have you been in the business ?-About ten years.
4D292. How many hands are you employing ?-We have about 60 hands now.
49293. How many had you when you commencecl upon a small scale ?-Just myself and my wife.
49294. How has the tariff affected your industry ?-I think it encourages the industry, as far as I
can see. I clo not wish to alter it.
49295. Is there any alteration in the tariff that you wish to propose ?-I think not.
49296. Do you give employment to other people outside the factory in 8A.ldition to the 60 hands ?
-Yes, a good deal.
49297. In the manufacture oftins ?-We make the tins 11pon the premises.
49298. Do you make the cases upon the premises ?-No, we get them made at Halstead and Kerr's,
the timber merchants. ·
49209. Your labels-are those printed in the colony?-We have them all printed in the colony.
4!1300. Have you any plant used in the trade-any machinery ?-Yes, we have machinery such as
pans and the engine.
49301. Is that made in the colony ?-Yes, it was made in the colony, and we have other plant that
we are expecting out from home. i,Y e could not get it made here-an improved plant. Of course we shall
have to pay, I suppo~e, the usual duty upon it, but we do not object to that.

1459
49302. Have you tried Queensland sugar at all in your factory?-Yes, we tried it, but we prefer
the Mauril.ius.
49303. Supposing the Queensland sug:u were admitted duty free ?-That would make a little
difference of course.
4930±. ·w onld you be able then to do with less duty upon your jam?-I could not say, I ttm sure; we
do not like to remove the duties.
49305. \Ve are bound, of course, to look all round the question. Has not the duty upon imported
jam so thoroughly established the local manufacturer that the imported jam is almost beaten out of the
rnQrket now ?-Yes, I believe it is.
49306. It is (t rare thing, for instance, to see Wotherspoon's jmn in a grocer's windows, is it not?­
I remember ten or twelve years ago you usecl to see any amount of imported jam, now I never see it.
49307. If you could supply your jam even at a lower price than you do now, in consequence say, of
the removal of the duty from Queenshmd sugar, and the using of that sugar instead of the Mauritius, would
not you still be able to keep out the imported jam, even if the duty were 1d. instead of 2d.?-Yes, no t1oubt
we could.
49308. You are not afraid of the competition with Tasmanian jam, are you ?-No, the gardeners
here are increasing their gardens so much, that the fruit is beginning to be almost as plentiful in this colony
as Tasmania.
49309. Has not fruit this season, in fact, been far more plentiful ?-Yes, every year it increases.
49310. It has been rotting under the trees in almost every direction, and they have been feeding pigs
with it, to my own knowledge ?-No.
49311. Now, with a cheaper and more plentiful supply of frnit and with Queensland sugar duty
free ?-If we could get sugar duty free it would make a great difference, it is .£3 a ton.
49312. You could do with a duty of Id. a pound instead of 2d.?-The sugar duty is not equal to a
duty of 1d. a pound upon jam.
49313. No, of course not. Has there been any increase in the price of colonial jam since you
started ?-No, quite the other way. It has decreased.
49314. When you commenced ten yem·s ago, for instance, what were yon able to get for your jam?
-About 7s. 6d. a dozen, 7s. and Is. 6d.
49315. A dozen one pound tins ?-Yes.
49316. Then it had to come into competition with Wotherspoon's ?-Yes, and English jams.
49317. Which were sold ~tt what ?-About 8s. 6d.
49318. Now you are able to supply it at what ?-We are able to supply the best jams now at
5s. 3d.
49319. The local competition of one jam maker with the other has brought down the price ?-That
is what has done it.
49320. By Mr. Mcintyre.-Do I understand that that is about 5;f;d. a pound that you are charging
for jillll ?-Yes.
49321. And do you really require 2d. a pound duty upon an m'ticle ntlued at only 5.!cl. ?-Yes, but
there are the expenses of getting it up, the tins and everything.
49322. But in the face of the fact that the fruit is now so plentiful and so cheap compared with
what it was when you started, and sugar also, do you mean to say that you could not do with Id. a pound
upon an article that could be made for 5d. ?-I have no doubt we could hold our own at Id. a pound, I am
not afraid of tnat, if Qtleenslancl sugar is admitted L1uty free.
'19323. By the Chainnan.-Have you anything further to say yourself?-No, I do not know of
1mything.
'l'he witness withdr·ew.
Edward White sworn and examined.
EHa.s Ct:mliff,
contt'nued,
3rd May 1883.
49324. By the Cl!airmcm.-\Vhat are you ?-Sauce and cordial maker. Edward White,
49325. Where is your factory situated ?-Church-street, Richmond. ilrd May 1883.
4932G. How long has it been established ?-Six or seven years as a sauce maker.
49327. How many hands are you employing ?.,-From eight to twelve.
49328. Say ten--what is the principal article you manufacture?-VVe are bottlers as well as sauce
and cordial makers.
49329. What is the principal article you manufacture ?-Beer.
49330. You want to evidence upon the question of sauce ?-Sauce only.
49331. Are there any particular kinds of sauces that you devote yourselves to, or do you make them
all ?-We make all kinds of sauces.
49332. In what way does the tariff affect that industry ?-Since the tariff was altered upon sauces
the market has been :flooded with English sauces, to the great detriment of the colonial maker.
49333. When was the tariff altered ?-I do not know the preci~e elate, but it was altered from 1s.
a dozen fm· reputed half-pints, to a 10 per cent. ad valorem.
49 334. "Oilmen's stores (except essential oils and essences not containing alcohol) packed in bottles,
jm·s, canisters, or vessels not exceeding one requted quart in size, 20 per cent." That is the duty. If they
do exceed those quarts and sizes what is it then, Mr. Dryscble ?-(.Jir. Drysdale) 10 per cent., like
chutney in casks.
49335. Then they simply put it into bottles containing a little more than a quart and get it in at 10
per cent. duty, is that it ?-[The PVitness J-Yes, but I am referring more particularly to half-pint bottles.
49336. Then they pay 20 per cent. ?-Then I was under a misimpression. But what we want is a
:fixed duty of ls. a dozen upon reputed half-pints, and 2s. a dozen upon repnted pints.
49337. By JJ1r. Mcintgre.-No matte1~ what the value of the article ?-Yes, decidedly, because these
sauces that are brought here are pretty much of a value; there is only one particular niake thQtis a hi"h
0
price, and that is Lea and Perrin's.
49338. By the Chqirmq,n,-Yo11 represent to the Cprpmission tha.t 20 per c~mt. is not sufficient?~
Yes,

Edwar~White,
1460
49339. You want a fixed duty of ls. tl, dozen upon the pints and 6cl. upon the half-pints?-That
sr~~;'~sa.: would be about 20 per cent. A shilling upon reputed half-pints and 2s. for reputed pints, and quarts in
proportion ; thnt is what we want.
493,10. Whe~t is the wholesale price of the reputeclhttll'-pints ?-Colonial?
49341. No, imported ?-I could harclly tell you Lea and Perrin'.s.
49342. Leaving those out, as exceptionally high in price, you say ?-About 4s.; 3s. 6d. to 4s. 6d.
49343. Then if you say la. upon that that is 25 per cent. only, and you get 20 per cent. now?-
At the present time several :English sauces are being sold as low as that; but you ask the average English
price, I say 3s. 6d., ancl there are others very much lower even than that.
49344. Still you get 20 per cent. upon the lower priced article, that is more in proportion than upon
the higher priced one ?-Twenty per cent. is not equal to ls. a dozen,
49345. No, but it is upon the lower price, so that the duty is just ns much in proportion as it is in
the other case. What is the price of the colonial?-The same, 4s. ; 3s. 6d. to 4s. 6cl.
49346. Have you anything else to say ?-No, that is all.
The toitness witltdrew.
Adjourned to Tuesda.IJ next, at Ttvo o'clock.
Dav!d Gibson,
Sth May 1883.
TUESDAY, 8TH :MAY, 1883.
Present:
JA:!I:LES MrRAMs;Esq., M.L.A., in the Chair;
J. Bo,;;isto Esq., ML.A., The Hon. G. JVIeares, M.L.C.,
W. J. Lobb, Esq., W. F. Walker, Esq., M.L.A.,
The Hon. ,J. Lorimer, M.L.C.,
E. L. Zox, Esq., M.L.A.
J. Mcintyre, Esq., M.L.A.,
GRAIN, FLOUR, RICE, ETC.
David Gibson sworn aud examined.
49347. By tlte Chairman.-What are you ?-I am a miller in Carlton.
49348. Has it been long established ?-That is the oldest established mill in the colony. It was
originally established by Mr. John Dight.
49349. I have a letter from Mr. Gibson, dated 27th of the 5th month 1!:'82, asking an opportunity
of giving evidence before the Commission on the question of the duty upon milling machinery ?­
Yes.
49350. ls the Commiss10n to understand that that is the only item you wish to bring under their
notice ?-No; I wish to bring under their notice other items, and also the tariff upon grain generallywe
want it swept all away. I want to be heard upon that point. '
49351. As to the material you manipulate-that is the grain-what is your opinion in relation to
the tariff upon that ?~There is a duty now of 2s. a bushel upon wheat, and the fanners themselves complain
that they cannot get any seed wheat to have ~• variation of seed. It does not affect us personally
to pay 2s. a bi1shel, because the price in London rules the price in the colony at present.
49352. It is 2s. a cental, is it not?~ Yes. I beg your pardon, we always calculate by the bushel.
The duty does not affect the colony in any way, as the London market now rules our market
here.
49353. For wheat ?-For wheat. I am speaking simply of wheat now and flour, and we are
charged now 27i per cent. upon all our imported patent machinery that cannot be produced in the
colonv.
• 49354. Now you are going from the material to the machinery ?-Yes, l am finished with
material.
49355. Let us keep to the one article first-yott propose the abolition of the 2s. cental upon
wheat?-Yes.
49356. You do that upon tho grouml that our produce has outstepped our demands and that we
are an exporting country in regard to wheat?-Y os.
49357. The price being ruled by the London market and not here ?-By the European markets.
49358. I also understand it upon the ground of the admission of varieties of seed wheat, without
paying duty?-If the duty were swept away we shorud have t.he opportunity of getting varieties of seed
wheat in which we cannot get now.
49359. Do the growers of wheat coincide with ymt in that opinion ?-The growers of whent coincide
with me in that opi11ion as fm· as I have spoken to them, because it produces a better quality and they get
more of it by a change of seed. ·
49360. Those are the two grounds upon which you advocate the remission of thE;J duty upon wheat?
-Yes.
49361. Have you anything to say about the duty upon other cereals ?-I have nothing particular to
say about them; I considel' them a great hardship.
49362. Do you deal in them?-Yes, in oats an cl barley principally; I have made no pearl barley in
bond, only oatmeal.
49363. You can clo that in bond ?-I can do that in bond.
49364. So it does not affect you in that respect ?-So it does not affect me in that respect, but I
should like to see the whole duty swept off.
49365. Now about the improvements and machinery, what have you to say ?-I will show yott a
sample of flour. I luove erected a large plant and I have brought a sample of flour. This :flour is worth 4s.
a bag more than flour made in ordinary stones, consequently you see the enhanceil cost of it by the duty.
49366. Thost: are all the same snmples ?-No, they are different samples. One is made by the
patent machinery, an cl the other is made by the stones--[ the witness produced and !tanded in the samples].

1461
49367. I understand that you show these samples of flour in ordel' to prove the difference in the
value and the fineness of the flour manufactured by the patent machinery of which you speak ?-Yes.
49368. And flom made by the ordinary millstones ?-Yes.
49369. I have numbered the samples No. 1, No. '2, and No. 3. Ne. 1, you say, is the result of the
patent machinery, awl Nos. 2 and 3 are the samples from the ortlinary machinery?-Yes.
49370. What is the difference in the value of these different flours ?-The difference in the value of
the patent flour from America is 4s. a bag in London. From Italy and Buda-Pesth, where they originally
introduced the roller mills, there is a difference of 9s. a sack. Before they star~ed this patent machinery
their flour commanded in London the ordinary price.
4D371. You have this machinery in use now ?-Yes.
49372. Have you experienced the value of the enhanced value ?-Yes.
49373, And you object, I understand, to the duty which you had to pay upon this machine?-Yes,
2H per cent.
49374. What was the cost of the machinery you imported ?-It costs altogether upwarLls of £4,000
before it started.
49375. About £4,000 ?-Upwards of £A,OOO.
4937G. You tell us this is a patent ?-It is not a patent in the colony, it is a patent in Hungary.
49377. The patent (loes not extend to this country ?-The patent does not extend t.o this country.
49378. Then if we introduce a regulation by which all patent machinery should be admitted free, it
would not touch this case ?-It is patent where it is exported from, but it is not a patent here.
4\}379. Then under a regulation by which all patent machinery, for whatever purpose it is made
and whatever trade used, it should be admitted free, this would come in free ?-I expect iL would.
49380. Have you anything further to add ?-I have this to add, tlmt we have to compete with the
neighbouring colonies. Everything we handle in our mill is taxed. Onr belts are taxed, which eomes to a
large qmmtity of money. Our cornsacks are heavily taxed, all our macl1inery, in fact everythiug we touch
is taxed. Across the Border, in New South \Vales, or South Australia, everything comes in free, bags are
half the mouev.
4938l:Not in New South Wales, are the same there?-Yes, but they are half in South
Australia, and machinery comes in free.
49382. Not rnachinery in South Australia ?-It is
Now we have all this to contend with, which is very unjust
markets with them.
small if anything, but in Sydney it is free.
contend, because we have to compete in the
49383. Which markets ?-Sydney ami Queensland ; we send flour to all those markets.
49384. Are you able to compete with them there successfully to any exten~ ?-We have to compete
with them ; but om· protits, as manufacturers, must be reduced to that extent.
49385. Can you give the Commission any statement of the portion of your outlay upon t,_hese articles
that you have enumerated, and which pay duty-what proportion does it bear to the value of your yearly
out~put ?-I have not gone into the thing so minutely as that.
49386. You see, that in order for us to come to an opinion as to how far these taxes are a burden
upon you, and reduce your profits, it is neeessary for us to know what is the value of your year's business,
and what is the value of the outlay upon these articles-for instance, what does oil co;;t ?-Oil costs about a
couple of pounds a week.
49387. And the duty is 20 per cent. upon it, is it not ?-About 20 per cent.
Mr. Drysdale.-Twelve and a half per cent.
The fFttness.-Theu there is our bagging. We use about a thousand ba.gs a week. We pay Is. net,
and the Adelaide people pay 6d.
49388. You would hn.ve to pay Is. in New South Wales, the same as here ?-Yes ; but the Adelaide
people have that advantage. If I use a thousand bags of wheat they have the aclvant!tge of paying only
half what I pay.
49389. You do an export trade ?-Yes.
49390. Do you find any difficulty in dealing with the Customs under the drawback regulations?­
We get no drawback.
49391. You manipulate in bond, of course ?-Yes ; the oatmeal is sent away in bond, and flour is
upon the free list.
- 49392. So you have no trouble in that ?-We have no trouble in that whatever.
49393. The tariff then cloes not interfere with yom· export trade, more than to rednce certain
amounts of profit to you in the direction you spoke of?-Yes.
49394. By .11fT. Bosisto.-In reference to a statement made here the other clay, about pollard or
sharps, does the patent process make pollard or slmrps of a quality that would make ordinary ship's
biscuits ?-I may tell you that the millers of Melbourne are ahead of the millers in the neighbouring
colonies. 1 suppose they are more energetic men. Five years >tgo I was in London, aml I importecl a
purifier, as they call it. When we m!l.ke pollarcl we put it into the purifier, and it takes away all the light
fluffy kernel f1·om it, and leaves nothing but the pure wheat, aml it makes flour equal to the first wheat,
that is the reason there is none to sell in the colony. Vife have now nearly all got purifiers, and we convert
it into flom.
49395. So in point of fact that kind of pollard will not do for biscuit bakers?-We find it more
profitable to make it into flour than to sell it to the biscuit bakers. Our improved machinery has done
away with that kind of pollard or nearly so.
49396. By the Hon. J.Wr. Lorimer.-Theu if the duty were abolished upon pollard it woulLl not
injnre the millers ?-Not a bit.
49397. You have no objection ?-The millers are not frightened of anything of that kind.
49398. As to the competition in which you are at a disadva.ntage in foreign mm·kets, I think in
answer to the Chairman you simply talked about Sydney ?-I say Sycln13y and Queensland.
49399. You export flour to London also, do not you ?-Yes.
49400. It will be the largest market I suppose in the future ?-Yes, I suppose it will.
49401. So that this h:J.ndicapping by a duty puts you at a clisadv:J.ntage in competing with South
Australia at I"onclon ?-Yes, ~mcl it also keeps the patent mnchines out· of the colony ; you can put your
Da.vhl Oibson 1
conliJlued,
Stll May 1883,

1462
David Gibson,
contt'nued,
8th May 1883,
hand upon them. No mill furnisher will lay out £25,000 upon those things and put them into his yard.
If you want them you must go to Europe for them instead of going next door.
49402. Then you want the removal of these duties to enable you to compete with other colonies
in foreign markets ?-Yes, to enable us to compete with other colonies in foreign markets; also that the
millers of the colony may use them and enhance the value of the article. If we can enhance the value of
flour 4s. a sack, why not let us do it; if we enhance it, the farmers and all the producers in the colony
are interested in it, for they would get the larger price for their produce.
49403. Is the Victorian wheat in all respects as good for flour as the South .Australian wheat ?­
I think not. I think the South .Australian wheat has more gluten and saccharine matter than the wheat
grown upon the plains here, but our wheat is magnificent.·
49404. Then they have some advantage over you in the quality of the wheat ?-They have some
advantage over us.
49/1,05. Do you ever import South .Australian wheat to mix P-We cannot import it now.
49406. If the duty were off would you do it? -I think not, for, as a rule, we are 2d. a bushel under
them.
·19407. By Jlh. JYJaintyre.-Is the flour marked No. 1 here a superior article to Nos. 2 and 3 ?-
Yes.
49"108. For general consumption ?-Yes, for anything.
49409. By having this class of machinery you give to the consumers and eaters of bread in the
colony a better article ?-We should give the consumers a better article. It is freed from foreign matter,
dirt, or ground up bran.
49410. It is a finer flour in every respect ?-Yes.
49411. Is there a kind of grit in No. 3, particularly as compared with No. 1; is there anything
particular ?-It is rougher ground.
49412. What is the particular point in the new machinery. Is that sample made from the same
wheat?-Yes, it is made from the same wheat. .A wheat berry is a very fine thing, it is all full of fine
~ells, and it is bound up, as it were, in a net. When you have split the wheat berry and take a powerful
Inicroscope, you see all the cells. The new machinery does not break up the iine glutinous matter, it just
chips it asunder. In the other old process of grinding you broke up the cells which discoloured the :flour,
and deteriorated it as :flour to a great extent more than anyone can understand, who does not look into it.
49413. You have this class of machinery at present in use?-Yes.
49414. Would you require more than you have now ?-I would be the better of some more.
49415. For the n1tnre you are speaking ?-I should like to try back for the past if I could, and for
the future also, though I do not speak personally for myself alone, I speak for the colony and what would
benefit it.
49416. Could not this elass of machinery be made in the colony ?-No; they have not got the way
of making it. .
49417. Have you ever tried ?-It is made of chilled iron, and these people of Buda-Pesth have
been working for sixty years before they got it to this point, and they have lost thousands of pounds in
doing it.
49418. And if you get these in, you say the consumer will save more ?-They will get a better
quality of flour.
49419. Should we get a better 2lb.loaf?-Yes, you will, and it will have more nourishing qualities
iri it.
You would have a quality worth one and a half times the other.
49420. You say the people will benefit by this ?-Yes.
49421. It is more wholesome and a better article ?-It is more wholesome and a better article.
49422. By tl~e Chawnu~n.-Have you anything further to add ?-Nothing further.
The witness withdrew.
I
I,
Thomas Brunton sworn ancl examined.
ThOmasBrunton, 49423. By t!.e Chairman.-What are you ?-Miller.
8th May !883. 49424. Where is your Inill situated ?-Corner of Spencer and Little Flinders-streets.
49425. How long have you been established as a miller in Melbourne ?-About twelve years.
49426. What is the number of hands you have employed, it is returned as 42-is that the number
now ?-Yes, I suppose so.
49427. You have heard part of the evidence, at any rate, of the previous witness, have you not?
-Yes.
49428. Do you agree with his evidence as far as you have heard it ?-I clo not know, it was rather
conflicting, I thought, in reference to the quality of flour. It is a very debatable point. You find the
medical men in England condemning this fine-dressed :flour altogether. From a sanitary point o:f view
I think it is a mistake, this patent :flour, and I disagree with Mr. Gibson in saying that it fetches 4s., much
less 9s., a sack, more than the common :flour does.
49429. What is the difference in the value according to your experience ?-I do not think this fine
patent flour is usecl anywhere except in London, and the wealthy towns in England amongst a comparatively
limited few, because in the population of London there is nine-tenths poor people who want a fine big
loaf, and a cheap one. This is used for pastry and rolls.. .Ancl every mail we are getting worcl that the
.Americans and the Hungarians are going in for the straight grade. "\Vhat Mr. Gibson says about this fine
quality is very creditable to him as a miller, but that flour is not much used.
49430. By "straight grade" you mean the whole corn ground up ?-No. Yon understand there
are :firsts, and seconds, and thirds there-[7ifen·ing to the samples upon the table J. 'What is done is to mix
them all together, and that makes an average quality of a sack of flour called a straight grade.
49431. Though there are three s:1mples here, one only is from the fine machinery, and two of them
are from the oi·clinary mode of milling ?-I was not aware of that.
49432. Have you any alteration in the tariff to propose ?-I agree with Mr. Gibson in every sense
as to the desirability of taking: off the duty from patent machinery. No doubt that milling, till the last
few years, was the saxue as it has been since the time of Pharaoh. But now a completely new proces;;; h&s

1463
taken the place of mill-stones, and this machinery ought to come in free, for the porcelain rollers and the ThomasBrunton,
chilled iron rollers cannot be made here, and they ought to come in free as the silk for dressing does. Bt~ 0 ~i::';~83 ,
49433. Mr; Gibson gave us evidence in favour of removing the duty from wheat altogether, how does
that accord with yom experience ?-I think it is really unnecessary. It does not bring in a penny of
revenue, and I see no necessity to stain the statute-book with it.
49434. You agree with Mr. Gibson that it should be removed ?-Yes, I think so. I think the
competition could not be greater than it is now.
49435. Have you any dealings in other cereals than wheat ?-No, I deal in wheat principally.
49436. You do not express any opinion upon the duty upon barley and oats ?-I think the farmers
in this country are sufficiently protected, and have been so sufficiently long, and as they do not grow sufficient
barley to supply our wants they ought to give it up altogether, and let us get om· supply from New
Zealand, or somewhere else.
49437. Before giving that evidence, I clo not know whether you considered the fact that during the
last three or fom years, since the last alteration of the duty upon barley, and since the alteration, at the
same date, of the duty upon malt, the farmers have been growing a much larger quantity of barley, and that
they are, year by year, increasing it ?-Does that apply to this last year, I thought it was less?
49438. Everyone admits that last year was a bad crop, but taking the nm of the last three or four
years, they are growing much more barley than they clicl five or six years ago. You know, as a fact, that
about 1879 the duty on barley was doubled over and above what it was previously, and above what other
cereals paid ?-Yes.
49439. Concurrently with that an excise duty was put upon malt ?-Yes.
49440. The result is that nearly all the malt now used in the colony is grown and manufactnred
here ?-Yes.
49441. Unless you bear that in mind you >vill mislead the Commission and yourself, in recommending
the remission of the duty upon barley, upon the ground that the farmers were not taking advantage of it?
-Perhaps it may not he judiciotls to remove the duty off barley just now, but it must be upon the other
cereals, for when production is in advance of consumption what is the use of protection?
49442. Has the production of oats in this colony ove1TUU the consumption of oats in this colony?-
I am not able to speak clefinitcly upon that.
49443. You clo not deal in oats ?-No.
49444. And you are not able to speak with authority upon that ?-No.
49445. Then your evidence may be fairly confined to the question of wheat?-Yes.
49446. And leave the parties interested in other grains to speak for them themselves ?-Yes.
49447. Have you anything more to aclcl in relation to the duties that affect you as a miller?-! clo
not think so. I concur with Mr. Gibson in reference to belting and Sl1cks, that they indirectly press upon
the mlllers, but I do not think it is of sufficient importance to be worthy of the attention of the trade,
myself.
49448. By Jfr. ~"4fclntyre.-As to the barley, it is simply an opinion you give about barley ?-That
is all.
49449. It is not in your business ?-No.
49450. As to machinery, did ever you try to get this class of machinery that you require in your
works made in the colony ?-No.
49451. How do you know then that it could not be made ?-Just upon the same principle that you
can only get French burrs in France. And porcelain clay simply cannot be made.
49452. You understand that the impression prevails in this country that anything under the sun can
be made, if you protect it highly enough ?-I do not know that exactly. I have got a lot of machinery out
lately, and I felt rather sore to have to pay 27~ duty upon it; it was pu.tent machinery.
49453. But never having tried to get it made in the colony you do not know whether it can be made
here ?-Purifiers, which are the greatost improvements, I think, which have taken place in milling in the
last ten years, certainly could be made ii1 the colony, and I believe Bocldington is making them now.
49454. You see unless we get evidence to show that the article you speak of cannot be made in the
colony, except at very great expense, of course we should not be in a position to recommend your policy to
be adopted ?-I understand the purifiers made here work very well.
49455 . .Are they a patent here ?-No, the patent L1.ws here are so loose that if a new invention
comes in, any man may patent it at once.
49456. As to wheat, you did not hold with Mr. Gibson as to the fmer qualities being an improvement,
as compared with coarser qualities ?-That is simply a matter of opinion.
49457. That is medical opinion ?-That is medical opinion and practical opinion. I may say I was
a baker for many years before I was a miller, ancl bakers want a good strong clasH of flom that will take
up a good deal of water aucl make plenty of bread. That is what they want, if it is of a colour that satisfies
the customers.
49458. You think the flour that pleases the baker, is the one that turns out the most loaves, though
it may be an inferior article as far as the public are concerned ?-My experience is that I have tried it, aml
it makes a particularly white beautiful flour hut it lacks strength, and consequently it clid not give that
satisfaetion to the baker that the other class did. .
49459. That is the finer class ?-Yes.
49460, And [I suppose they use it Tlith alum and other things ?-I do not think it; they do not
require it in tbis country, with the fine class of wheat they have. They may use some lime water, perhaps.
40461. By 11fr. Zox.-In reference to the nutriment in this :flour dressed by patent machinery, clo
you consicler it possesses equally as much or more than the other samples of :flour ?-That is exactly where
the faculty differ. .
49462. But I want your opinion; can you give an opinion at all'npon it?-I can give you an extract
from a London journal of some German philosopher who feel two: dogs, one upon pure wheat ftonr and the other
upon pollard, and the dog fed upon pollard grew stronger and was well, while the other actl1ally lingerecT
~md died. The germ is entirely taken out of the flour by this proces,-;; but it is debated, and very
successfully I think, that the germ of the grain is what constitutes the real nutriment of the grain itself.

~·homasBrunton, 49463. What is the clifference in this colony, as far as expense is concerned, between the flour
slli:";i~'sa. dressed by this patent machinery and t.he course flour that we have seen to~day ?-The cost is simply interest
upon the money-upon the outlay addecl and the duty added. Take the interest say at 10 per cent.
49464. What price do they ch>wge per ton difference upon this flour?-We do not rmtke any flour of
that class.
49465. Have you any of this patent machinery that Mr. Gibson has ?-Yes.
49466. This Hungarian machinery ?-No. We have everything he has got, I think, except the
rollers.
4946 7. If the duty were taken off this machinery, do you think it would be imported ?-Yes, I think
so. You are bouml to. We must improve the colour of our flour to be able to compete, even in Sydney, bnt it is
singular how fashion changes. Now the bakers there and the public are far more particular to have a white
loaf' than they are here. The same applies to London and the West of England. The bread in Glasgow, to
look at, is worth 2d. a loaf more t.lum the bread in Edinburgh, consequently as a manufacturer you have to
manufacture what will suit your customers.
4!J468. Can the machinery you nse in yonr factory he made in this country?-Yes, I think so.
At any rate all except the disc mill (I have got no rollers) that I have got. The disc mill is a clifterent
process of reducing wheat to small proportions. It is upon the same principle as the rollers.
49469. Then what reasons could this Commission give to the general public, who at present believe
in protection, for doing awny with the duties if the article can be manufactured in this country ?-I should
say to the mill machinists here-" Show me a machine equnl to that, or show me that you can make one,"
and that woulrl be enough. But they say, "I cannot do that, I have not the materi11l."
49470. Suppose a machine cost a certain sum of money, what would be the difference in the percentage,
as far as value is concerned, between the colonial~made article and the English-made article of a similar
sort of machinery ?-They say a purifier costs here £140 made by BQ(ldington ; they could be got, I should
sav, for £70 or £80.
" 49471. By llfr. Jl{clntyre.-An equal machine ?-Yes, I think so. There are two machines; I have
one that would do the same work.
49472. By .11fr. Zoil~.-Are we to understand you that an article that would cost you £140 here, if
it could be importecl from England duty free, it could be laid clown here for £70 ?-£70 or £80-that is not
taking the duty, you know.
. 49473. No, taking freight and insurance and the price of the article itself without duty ?-Yes.
49474. And there would be a difference in your opinion, between 60 and 70 per cent. now, or nearly
100 per cent. difference?-Yes, I should think that in certain machinery.
49475. Do you use many bags in your business ?-Yes, we do.
49476. Do you use many of the colonially manufactured article ?-When they are cheaper than the.
others we do.
49477. Are they ever cheaper ?-I have seen them cheaper.
49478. Do you think that without the duty upon bags the colonial manufacturer could compete
with those from India and other places ?-No, I always thought it a mistake. I may say it is my opinion
that it is a mistake to put a protective duty upon anything where the raw material is not native to the
country.
49479. How many bags, colonial made, are nsed to those imported, that is what is the percentage of
the one to the other ?-I should say not cent. of what are used are colonial made.
49480. Is the quality as good I think so.
49481. By lvfr. Bosisto.-Have you had any experience with reference to the quality of the wheat
grown from year tD year on the same lancl, as to t.he quality of the flour derived therefrom ?-Am I to
understand that question---
4~)482. You are aware that in many parts of this country farmers are growing wheat upon the same
piece of land year nfter year ?-Yes.
49483. Have you any evidence to give us positively as to whether the wheat grown in such a way is
not becoming more or less deteriorated in value ?-Yes, I think it is ; it loses its glutinous prope1iies after
long cultivation.
49484. Do you find that wheat grown in districts where fanners have been growing wheat every
year, has deteriorated in its vnlue for flour'?-Yes.
49485. You do ?-I do decidedly.
4!1486. Have you had any ex:pe1ience in reference to wheat grown upon land where there has been a
rotation of crops, at all that more applies to Kyneton and the old settled districts. .
41J487. It has not come under your notice as to whether, then, it continues in its level full value?­
No.
49488 .Are you of opinion that the way in which m:1ny of our farmers are growing their wheat crops
is really detriment:1l to themselves and to the flour trade '?-Yes, I think so. We all desire to "et wheat
from new l:1ml that has never been cultivated before. That is always the strongest wheat, grad11:J:ly it goes
clown and deteriorates in value; that, eoupled with dirt, barley and wild oats that are mixed with it. The
districts vary too. The districts around Dookie and Yarrawonga, the lime country, produce very good
wheat ; but that from the Goulburn valley and the flat country is very poor, it is all starch and water. Most
of our country has just been taken up recently.
49489. You are aW!tre that in some places the farmers are really devoting their attention to the
rotation of crops, while in others they are exhausting the soil by growing wheat perpetually?-Yes, that
is the general practice, I believe, round about Kyneton, and near town ; farming is carried on as a science.
19490. 'fake the Wimmera, where wheat is grown year after year for five or six years, is the wheat
deteriorating in its flour value ?-The VVimmera

1465
49494. Do you think you could draw up a list of articles upon which you think the tariff ought to Thomas.Brunton,
be altered ?-Yes.
st~::;~sa.
~ . 49495. Do you think you could send a list of such articles as the millers, as a body, desire to be
altered in the tariff ?-They could be all described under the word "Rollers "-chil)ed rollers and porcelain
rollers.
49496. Now as to corn sacks and belting ?-I do not know that you could get belting much cheaper
if the duty was off to-morrow.
49497. Do you think the millers could agree among themselves as to the list of goods that they want
the duty off ?-I do not think they could, beyond the rollers ; they would be all unanimous upon that point.
You come upon the question of purifiers then, and you trench upon a vested interest here which is perfectly
capable of making them.
49498. I think you answered this question to Mr. Zox-if the duty was taken off this patent
machinery referred to by Mr. Gibson, would it be more extensively used in the colony ?-I think so.
Whenever you have to send out flour to the world you must compete with those who send flour to a similar
market.
49499. I do not ask for medical evidence as to which is the best ?-Not at all, it is simply a question
of opinion.
49500. It is what is most saleable ?-Yes.
49501. By the Chairman.-As to the machinery, I understood you to say to Mr. Zox that a machine
that would be purchased in London· for £69 would cost in this colony about £140 ?-I am :not quite sure
what Bodington charges for his purifiers ; it depends upon the size and the superficial surface of silk in the
purifier.
49502. That is about what they pay, £140 ?-Yes.
49503. Why do not they import them and pay duty, for it would pay at £140 ?-They are importing
them as hard as they can. A lot of purifiers came in in the last six months. Of course there are purifiers
and purifiers. ·
49504. By Mr. Mclntyre.-I suppose you just take the colonial article when you are obliged to?­
No; that would be discrediting Mr. Bodington; he is as good a mill machinist as there is in the world.
But as to rollers, they have not got the materials, and they have :not the opportunity of getting the chilled
iron and porcelain.
49505. By the Chairmam.-You have :nothing further to add upon that point ?-No, nothing
further.
49506. Those articles are still imported in large numbers now, and pay the duty ?-Yes.
49507. And they only buy the colonial article at an enhanced price when there are none of the imported
in the market?-Yes.
The witness 'll!ithdrew..
Willialli Aitkeu sworn and examined.
49508. By the Chairman.-What firm do you represent ?-Aitkeu and Scott.
49509. Where is your mill situated ?-In Carlton.
49510. How long have you been a miller in the colony ?-Since 1854.
49511. How many hands are you employing ?-I think about twenty hands.
49512. Will you point out to the Commission, please, the points wherein you differ from the
previous witnesses ?-It places me almost in an invidious position to do so, because Mr. Gibson and Mr.
Brunton both have been importing this patent machinery, and we have got none of them, and I can only
speak from my experience of the ordinary machinery. I think that the results that have been shown from
the patent machinery, or almost the same results, could be got from our machinery now in operation. Mr.
Brunton says our machinery is as old as Pharaoh ; I think that is an argument in its favour. If it has stood
that time there must be something good in it.
49513. Do I understand your evidence to go to this point, that you do not want the duty off patent
machinery ?-No.
49514. The question as to which is the whiter flour is not a question for us to consider at all; our
question is what you recommend in relation to the duty. The previous witnesses agree that it would be a
good thing to take off the duty upon patent machinery; do you disagree with them ?-I could not give an
opinion upon that, because we can get on without it; besides which, I think the machinery could be made
in the colony except some parts of it; all the rest could be made in the colony.
49515. On whatever point do you differ from them ?-I would rather the Commission would ask
me questions than that I should make statements.
49516. I want to save your time and the time of the Commission too. I understood that you wished
to be examined because you differed from the previous witnesses upon some points material to the question.
If you do not differ from them, it is no use going on. However, I will ask you do you agree with the
previous witnesses as to taking off the duty on wheat ?-No, I do not.
49517. Will you state to the Commission your grounds for objecting to the removal of it ?-I know
as to the town millers it would be an advantage to them, but it would be much to the detriment of the
farmers of this country, if the duties are taken off.
49518. If it were to the detriment of the farmers would it be to the interest of the millers ?-They
are pretty nearly identicaL
49519. Then would it be to the interest of the miller to have this duty taken off?-Yes, because
then :Melbourne would be a sort of emporium for the whole of the colonies-a centre to which all the grain
would come to be treated. It would be good for the ::Ylelbourne merchants and millers., but it would act
prejudicially to the farmers ancl country millers.
'
49520. Have you got any facts to support that opinion ?-The facts are these; that before there was
a duty upon wheat, flour was dearer. :Flour is cheaper in Melbourne now than it was then, ancl it is
cheaper in Melbourne at the present moment than in any other part of the colonies, except perhaps New
Zealand.
49521. Have you any opinion to express or any evidence to give in relation to the duty upon barley
and oats-do you deal in those articles ttt all ?-~o, that is more a question for farmers.
T.i.ntl

WUllam Altken,
continued,
8th May 1883.
1466
49522. Do you do an export trade ?-We do nothing in that. .
49523. Ha-ve yon anything further to add?-Nothing but this, that a great deal has been smd about
the different grades in flour and the qualities and nutriment in wheat. Here, in Melbourne, the poorest
people eat the -very best of flour, they will not have two grades of flour, and this patent mac~nery is no use
unless it does make different grades. The present machinery in use makes the one grade, whteh apparently
is suitable to the present wants of the community. In those places or countries where there are different
classes of people, some of whom want -very fine bread, the machinery is no. doubt adapted to them. But
here, where every one is alike, the old machinery we find suits the purpose quite well.
49524. By Jir Walker.-You say that the old machinery is perfectly well adapted to this colony,
but do you do an export trade in flour at all wholly a town trade.
49525. Suppose you did an export trade, would not that patent machinery be very useful to you?­
I cannot say.
49526. You would not contradict the evidence of those millers who do an export trade ?-Decidedly
not.
49527. You say a great deal of the machinery spoken to by the other millers could be made here ;
do yon known that of your own knowledge ?-I do not know the new machir1ery tl:mt has just come out;
but speaking about the purifiers, they are a late introduction into the trade. After they were imported
here they began to be made here equal to the imported.
49528. What is the difference in the price; do yoU: agree >vith the difference stated already ?-No, I
think not. The difference is this. , You could order boots, for instance, from home, two pairs--you might
order one pair worth 15s. and the other £1, and there would be a difference in the manufacture and the
way they are got up.
Ml529. Which is the best-the imported one or the colonial-made ?-I believe the colonial works
equally well with the imported.
49530. You ha-ve no knowledge yourself of that ?-No.
49531. In regard to the duty on wheat, you said that the injury done by taking off the duty 11pon
wheat would be to the farmers ?-To the farmers especittlly.
49532. You said also that it would be a benefit to Melbourne, as it would make Melbourne the
emporium for the distribution of wheat ?-I think so.
49533. You are a Melbourne miller, are you not ?-Yes.
49534. And you give this evidence solely in the interests of the country
49535. And against your own interests ?-And against my own interests.
49536. By .Lltfr. JJiaintyre.-You said that, in your .opinion, if the duty were taken off wheat, it
would act prejudicially to the farmers. You did not explain how-how could it be prejudicial to the
farmers; is not the English market the standarcl for the price of wheat ?-I will tell you.
49537. Do not we produce more wheat than we consume ?-We do.
49538. Are we likely to be falling back in our production ?-I do not know.
49539. Suppose we continue just to produce more than we consume, in what way would the duty
taken off wheat be detrimental to the farming interest ?-In this way ; carriage is cheaper by wnter than
it is by land, and have seen the time in Melbourne here when we could order wheat from from Adelaide,
and get it quicker and cheaper from A.delaide than we could from a distance of 35 miles from Melbourne.
49540. You are!not likely to see those times ugain ?-No; but the principle works the same way.
49541. In that case it would just add to the quantity we should require to produce ?-Here?
49542. Yes ?-Yes. of course.
49543. How could that be detrimental to the farmer ?-If this is made a centre, and there is an
.outlet in other places, naturally the country places would suffer.
49544. But he is always exporting; you cannot consume what he you now. Another thing
that you said-wheat was cheaper now than it was formerly; we all know that, but you surely do not
mean to say that it is cheaper because of the tax being put upon it ?-It is the result of the tax being put
upon it, in my opinion.
4954.5. But does not the London market govern it in the first place '?-Yes ; but you arc not putting
the question so a~ to draw out the answer to it in the right manner. If you put the question right, we
we should never have been exporters but for the duty.
49546. We became large producers by that ?-Yes, by the duty.
49547. Having got that, how would it affect us ?-I do not think it would affect us much ; but the
effect would be that whife labour is cheaper in South ~ustralia, and they can farm in South Australia cheaper
than we c:1n clo they, that, can compete With our farmers here.
49548. How you know that labom is cheaper in South A nstralia? -Because all their harvesting
is done by strippers there, and we cannot use them here.
49.549. But it is done here in a great many places ?-\Vherever they can use them, but there are a
great many places where they cannot use them.
49550. And so there are in Sonth Australia ?-I think there are not many plaees in South
Austr11lia where thcv c11unot llse them.
49551. the Hon. JJ{r. Lo1·inwr.-Do you object to the removal of duty upon machinery ?-Not
at all.
49552. Do you approve of the remova:-would it benefit any one else ?-I do not know ; I do not
give an opinion; I am perfectly indifferent.
49553. You do uot ebject to the removal of the duties ?-Cert11inly not.
49554. If n class of millers advocate the remov11l of the duties, you would appro-ve of it 7-I
would not oppose it.
-19555. Do you think you would import them more extensively if that were done ?-They are only
an experiment here If they turn out a success, of course they will be more imported. ·
4955G. Do you think they me not going to be a success ?-I would not like to make the
experiment yet.
49557. Do you know whether they have been p, success in other parts of the world ?-In
England and America they are very much divided in opinion. Some of them are throwing over the rollers
for the stones, and I think, frqm what I learn by reading, that the two go best together-the rollers and.
the stones.

1467
4·9558. Youwoufd not be dispo~ed to try tl1em yourself?-Not in the meantime.
49559 .. Are there any other duties that you think ought to be removed-do you approve of
upon corn sacks ?-I think nothing presses very heavy upoft its.
49560. Some people think there is no reason'why it should press at all-do .you think it would be
an a:clv:antage to the trade to have the duty oft' ?-I do not think it would be much advantage.
49561. Would it make things cheaper ?-It would have that tendency.
49562. I suppose you will not argue t.hat a duty on corn s::wks at all toffect£ the price ?-It is felt, I
think, as a burthen.
49563. The manufacturers cannot compete in any case with Calcutta, I suppose, duty or no duty?
-I think not. I am quite at one with Mr. Brunton that where the raw material is not at hand there
should not be duty in any case.
49564. By Jlfr. Bosisto.-Have you had any experience in reference to the growing of wheat upon
the same soil year after year about the amount of flour derived from the wheat ?-No, I have no experience
of that.
49565. Is there not a possibility that the farmers are working against you millers by working upon
the same soil for the same material year after year ?-No doubt that that is a drawback.
49566. A great drawback ?-Yes, no doubt of it.
Tl•e ~Ditness
withdrew.
Leonarcl J ones sworn and examined.
49567. By the Chairman.-What firm do you represent ?-James F. McKenzic ::tnd Company.
49568. Where is your firm established ?-In Bond-street, Melbourne.
49569. How long has it been established ?-Since 1852 ; that is, not in Boml-street, that is in
Melbourne.
· 49570 .. That is 30 years; how many hands are you employing now?-We are employing 30 men,
20 boys; and 20 girls.
49571. Do you take the boys on as apprentices ?-No.
49572. Do you pay them wages from the first ?-Yes.
49573. Do you pay them piece work dr day work ?-Per week.
49574. What do you commence their wages at ?-We start them at 7s.
49575. About what age are they when you take them at that ?-About f01n·teen years of age.
49576. How do you increase them ?-"VVe advance them after they have been six months a shilling
a week, and then I do not know exactly how after that. H they are capable, we advance them a shilling or
eighteen pence.
· 49577. And when they are full journeymen what can they earn ?-They are not exactly journeymen
in our place, packers and others.
49578. They do not remain in the business then ?-They do not remain in the business.
49579. No technical knowledge they acquire enables them to get a living afterwards except
in some branches. foremen and so on.
49580. vVhat are the principal lines you manufacture ?-We manufacture oatmeal, mustanl, cocoa,
chicory, pearl barley, split peas, patent groats and barley, and a great number of other things.
49581. What of those items are affected by the tariff ?-Oatmeal is affected.
49582. Will you pick out those from your list which are affected by the tariff and upon which you
wish to give evidence; have you got them ready marked ?-Yes, I have.
49583. Will you let me have them, please ?-All that I wish to speak about is mustard, and that has
reference to a matter ~•bout which I do not know whether it is within the province of this Commission. We
labour under a disadvantage in llaving to conform to a certail1 clause in the Food Adulteration Act, and we
have to label our mustard as containing other wholesome ingredients.
49584. Do I understand you to say that mustard is the only item out of that list upon which you
wish to give evidence ?-Yes.
49585. You are satisfied with the duty as it affects all the other articles ?-No, I would like to add
oats to the mustard.
49586. The otber items in t.he list which are duti.able you are satisfied for the duty to remain Ul)On
as it is ?-I am. ·
. 49587: Now about mustard frrst; what is it you wish to say in relation to that ·?-We have got to
comply with a clause in the Adulteration of Food Act; we are compelled to put this upon our label, ''This
tin contains pure mustard with other wholesome ingredients used in the preparation of double superfine
mustard." I do not object to that being on; it is very necessary it should be on; but still the imported
article, made by Colman, does not bear that; and I think if we are compelled to put it on, the imported
article should be compelled to have it on.
49588. Are you compelled to put this statement upon all qualities of your mustard upon
every article we manufacture.
49589. Are the importers exempt from that restriction in relation to any of the imported goods they
send here ?-I do not know. You see it is not upon this label.
49590. You show us here one label, and the statement is not on, but if you showed us the label of
another quality of mustarcl, say, would you not find that statement upon it ?-I do not think it is upon any
other quality, none that I know of.
49591. None of Colman's ?-None of Colman's.
49592. I understand you not to object to this law or its operation ?-Not at all.
49593. All that you object to is that it is partial in its operation, applying only to the local men and
not to the importers ?-That is it exactly. ,
49594. If it applied to both, you would be perfectly satisfied ?-If it applied to both I would be
perfectly satisfied.
49595. Is that all you have to say about mustard that is all.
49596. By Jlir. Bosisto.-Does not Colman send ont a mustard with the words" Genuine mustard,"
when it is ~enuine, in siiver or gold letters ; I am not quite sure; I could not answer that with a11y
Leonnrcl JonesJ
8th May 1883.

'k
_Loonai'd Jones,
f.Ymlintwl,
8thlll'aJlB83,
1468
confidence at present; but I know he has sent out a mustard here called" Genuine mustard,'' but it is almost
out of the market.
49597. Does not he send out an article to this colony with the words in silver" Genuine mustard"?
-Yes, he does.
49598. And it is not upon that ?-It is not.
49599. But you are aware that he sends it out? -I am aware that he sends out a" Genuine mustard"
marked in silver or gold, as you describe.
49600. By th,e Chai:rman.-But even upon that label which has the words" Genuine mustard" in
silver letters this clause does not appear that you say that you have to put upon your labels ?-It does
not appear ; but it would not be necessary upon genuine mustard, you understand, to have that on at all.
You see Colman makes up mustard in the same manner as we do, and we have to put in that clause, and he
does not put it in.
49601. By Mr. Mcinty1·e.-Then "Genuine mustard," as imported by Mr. Colman, means a different
class of mustard, not that made by you ?-Yes, nothing but mustard.
49602. Is it not sufficient satisfaction to your business that that should be so ?-But ours has to say
that it is ndxed " with other wholesome ingredients," and the public see that, and they say there are other
ingredients in McKenzie's and there are none in Colman's. I think it would be only fair that Colman should
be compelled to put the same thing upon his mustard as we do upon ours, to be fair, or else let us take off
ours anti let Colman's in in the same fashion.
49603. Then we would require to prohibit the importation of this article unless it is branded like
the eolonial article ?-As a matter of fact, Colman eould not issue that label in London. He would be
obliged to conform to the law in London, the Adulteration of Food Act. . As a matter of fact, Keen's
mustard is marked like ours, but Colman's is not.
49604. By Mr. Zox.-Your complaint is, that upon every tin of mustard that you sell you are bound
to say what the article really eontains ?-Will you be kind enough not to put it in that way ? I do not
complain.
49605. But I want to go further with it. You say, if you are compelled to do that, you think it
unfair that our imported article should be introduced here without containing similar words to what your
tin is compelled to bear ?-I think it would be an injustice to us that our goods go before the public as a
mixture while the others appear as pure.
49606. Are you sure, in the event of that article being sold in England and not exported, it would
be a matter of impossibility, without infringment upou the Act, for Colman to put that label on the tin ?­
I think it would be an infringment of the Act ; but you are, no doubt, better posted up on those things
. than I am.
49607. What suggestion would you make to this Commission by which they would be enabled to
control the exporters from England as to the labels they put upon their tins ?-They can publish a notice to
the effect that articles made.up in a similar manner should have the same label-should conform to the
Adulteration of Food Act of this colony.
49608. Have you found it any way detrimental to your business ?-No. I mean to say that there
are spme natures that would get hold of our tin of mustard, and would say, " This is not mustard, there ia
something else in it beside mustard," and they take up the English tin, and say, "This is mustard, there
is no mistake about that, there is nothing in it but mustard!'
49609. Do not you think that the very arguments that you are now using would be rather in your
favour than antagonistic, because upon your tin of mustard there is a label by which the public know it is
pure mustard ?-No, that is not the case. It says it contains "Other ingredients."
49610. Are you quite sure that Colman's mustard contains the same component parts of adulteration,
if we may so term it, as your mustard does ?-I could not be sure, but I think it is extremely likely, and it
is most probable. .
49611. You do not dispute Colman's mustard being pure ?-I do not dispute it; it is no more pure
than ours is, that particular brand.
49612. By the Hon Mr. Lorimer.-What is the relative value of your double superfine and Colman's
superfine ; do you aim at making the same quality as Colman's?-We do. We consider our "D.F.S.''
mustard is as good as Colman's "D.S.F."
49613. Have you any duty to pay upon yours ?-No.
49614. What duty has Colman to pay upon his ?-2d. a pound.
49615. Is not that more than an equivalent for the disadvantage of the label ?-No, it is not. If
Colman's goods are allowed to come in here without that clause coming into operation, I think it should
be struck off ours.
49616. What is your priee ?-Ss. 6d., retailing a box a time.
49617. How much is that ?-1s. 5d. a pouml.
49618. What is Colman's price in London for the same quality?-It is so long since I had anything
to do with it that I could not exactly tell you the price in London. I can tell you the price here.
49619. What is the price here ?-'fhe price of that quality is 9s. 6d.
49620. I want it by the pound ?-'fhat is Is. 7d.
49621. Just2d. a pound more than yours ?-Yes.
49622. That is the difference in the duty?-Yes.
49623. How is it that he has been able to get 2d. a pound more than you get ?-Just prejudice, I
suppose.
49624. Can you tell us what ad valorem this 2d. a pound comes to upon the average mustard imported
?-I do not know the London prices; but as a matter of fact very little mustard imported is sold in
the colony except" D.S.F ."
49625. It used to be 10 per cent. ad valorem, was it not; when was it increased, was not it in
1871; was that the increase of duty that increased your business in mustard?-Yes.
49626. It has added to the colonial production ?-Decidedly.
49627. Has it increased the price to the consumer ?-No, it has cheapened the price to the
consumer.
49628. Then, if the duty were reduced, do not you think the price would be reduced too ?-If the
duty were reduced, we simply could not make any more mustard ; we could not compete.

1469
49629. Where do you get your raw material ?-Partly from colonial-grown seed, and partly from
home.
49630. Have you any duties to pay upon it ?-No.
49631. By ~w.r. Walker.-Do I understand you say that you cannot do with less than 2cl. a lb. upon
mustard ?-Yes..
49632. What is the reason for it. Do you pay more for your material than you do at home ?-We
have to pay more for the raw material, that is one thing. At present we use other seed beside colonial; in
fact we have to import mustard seed from home, white and brown both, as we1l as the colonial-grown
article.
49633. And the cost of your material is greater to you than the cost of the material to the home
manufacturers ?-Yes, and also the cost of labour is considerably more to us, and machinery. We have to
pay 27! per cent. ttpon the machinery that we use in the making of these articles.
49634. Why do not you get your machinery made here ?-We cannot.
49635. Have you tried?-We have not tried. I do not know of my own personal knowledge,
because I am not a practical man as far as machinery is concerned, but I have heard it over and over again
stated that the finer descriptions of machinery cannot be manufactured in the colony.
49636. I understood, with regard to these labels, that all mustard that is genuine mustard needs no
label of that kind?-I should think not. When an article is genuine there is no necessity.
49637. Then it is only when it is mixed with other articles ?-Then you are compelled to conform to
the Food Adulteration Act, and use th?se words. For instance, we say coffee with chicory.
49638. Then how is it that Colman is able to evade the pFovisions of that Act ?-I do not know.
I think we have had correspondence with the Customs Department since 1881, and. each Commissioner that
has been in power has always admitted the justice of our grievance, and said he would attend to it at once.
49639. And never has done it ?-And never has done it; and now, I believe, it is referred to the
Tariff Commission.
49640. By Mr. Bosisto.-Is the brown mustard gro;vn in Victoria equal to the imported mustard?
-It is not.
49641. In what way. Is it smaller or is it not so pungent ?-It is no so much a difference in size,
but it is not so pungent.
49642. By the Chairman.-The only other item you wish to give evidence upon is the item of oats.
What have you to say in relation to that ?-Mr. Gibson said he thought the duty should be removed, and
he gave his reasons for it. I should say, if it is not removed entirely, it ought to be removed in a measure.
I think 2s. a cental on oats is too much.
49643. Are you sure it is 2s.? -2s. per cental.
49644. What would you have it reduced to ?-I should think 6d. a bushel would be quite sufficient,
that would be ls. 3cl. per cental.
49645. Your proposal is to reduce it to 6d. a bushel, or Is. 3d. per cental. Can you see any objection
to its being removed altogether ?-I would rather see it removed than not, but still I consider it too
much if it is not to be removed. I consider 2s. a cental is too much. It acts against us in this way, that
very often we have great difficulty in getting suitable oats to make our oatmeal from, and we have to buy
New Zealand oats, and after we pay duty and wharfage rates it comes to about lO~d. a busheL I consider
that is far too much duty.
49646. What do you do with these oats when you get them; you convert them into oatmeal, do you
not ?-No, all the New Zealand oats we purchase we manufacture into meal in bond for export, but we
cannot use the oatmeal in this colony.
49647. Do you wish the Commission to understand that you cannot get a sufficient supply of
Victorian-grown oats to provide Victoria with its own oatmeal ?-Not of suitable quality.
49648. To make the necessary quantity of oatmeal for consumption in Victoria ?-Yes, in order to
. pay us. There are very much heavier oats in New Zealand, and we cannot get them in the colonies, as we
always prefer New Zealand oats if we can get them at such a price as suits us.
49649. Do I understand you to say that in your experience as a manufacturer of oatmeal you have
been unable to obtain colonial oats suitable for the purpose ?-At times, not always; sometimes the markets
vary.
49650. Recently ?-Recently. At present in fact.
49651. Has not the cultivation of oats in the colony increased lately ?-Yes, it has to a very large
. extent; but at the same time they are not so suitable as the New Zealand potato oats.
49652. The quality of the oats has not improved in proportion to the quantity produced ?-I am not
sufficiently versed in that to say.
49653. By the Hon. 11fr. Lorimer.-ls the quality that suits you best potato oats ?-Yes.
49654. Are potato oats largely grown in this colony ?-No, they are not.
49655. By the Chairman.-I understand you to say the quality of oats suitable to your purpose has
not kept up to your demand ?-That is it, it has not.
49656. And Victorian growers, although they increased the quantity of oats grown, grow other
kinds of oats and not what you want-is that it?-That is it.
49657. What are the kinds suitable for that our Vietorian growers do grow ?-For feed purposes.
49658. For horse feed?-Yes.
49659. You want a different kind of oat J-Yes, we want a kind that will produce as much oatmeal
as we can get.
49660. Have you anything further to say ?-No.
49661. By Mr. Walker.-You complain of the duty upon oats; are you willing to have the duty
upon oatmeal reduced ?-If the duty is taken away from oats I would not object to see the duty upon
oatmeal offtoo.
49662. That is, if the duty upon oats is abolished, you would be willing that the duty upon oatmeal
should also be abolished ?-Yes. , ·
49663. With regard to manufacturing pearl bru:ley ancl otmeal in bond, do you do it under the
supervision of a locker?-We have not yet made any pearl barley in bond.
49664. But you will do so ?-When we have necessity for it; we have not made application for it yet.
Leonard Jones,
continued, ·
8th May 1883.

igard to dressing rice in bond, you get 2s. a cental differential duty I see?-Yes.
49671. What does it cost you to dress it ?-The labour?
49672. Yes ?-I shouM say from £1 to 30s.
49673. Dressing, I suppose, just means putting it through the mill ?-No, it means a lot m'ore than
that. It goes through machineq. .
49674. To get this differential duty, all you require is to put it tht·ough the mill, is it not ?-You have
to dress it. It goes into the mili undresseu tmcl comes out dressed, and that entitles you to the clifferential
duty of 2s.
4967 5. How much do you say it costs to dress rice ?-'I'hat depends upon the machinery you have.
49676. How much does it cost you to dress a ton of rice ?-About £1 to 30s.
49677. And you get £4 differential duty ?-No, £2.
49678. Then you made a very good thing by this (h·essing ?-We clo not chmge that to our customers ;
they get the benefit of it.
49679. But the revenue loses it ?-That was the intention as far as I uuclerstood-I had a good deal to
do with it at the time-to encourage the dressing of rice in the colonies.
49680. How many hands do you employ in dressing rice ?-I could not very well separate them-say
five altogether.
49681. By l!ir.1ltlcintyre.-What is the value per pound of oatmeal ?-I assure you it is too cheap
altogether, it is less than 2d. a pound.
49682. And the duty upon it is 6s. per cental-uearly
this colony.
· 49683. Yes but there is?-V cry little.
a pound ?-Yes, but no oatmeal comes into
49684. There was £510 revenue last year ?-I do not know who uses it.
49685. Then our porridge costs us ~d. a pound more indeed it does not. Your porridge costs
you considerably less than it costs us to produce it.
49686. Ancl ~cl. a lb. is on it ?-That is nothing to us; we can compete in oatmeal with all the world.
49687. Then, if the duty were taken off oats, you would not object to take it off oatmeal ?-Yes,
decidedly I should ; how could we get on then ? *
49688. The oats are your raw rmtterial, and you would get any quantity of it ?-I do not object if
you take it off the oat to leave it on the oatmeal.
49689. Suppose we could not maoage to succeed in getting that clone, would you object to a 'reasonable
reduction of the duty charged at present; do not you admit that Jilcl. a lb. is excessive ?-No, I do not;
it does not interfere with us.
49690. There was more duty coming in when you paid only 3s. a cental than now when you pay
6s. ?-But there are a great many more producers of the article now.
49691. Your oatmeal, fresh upon the spot, would sell better than tl1e imported article ?-Yes.
49692. You uo not require to brand yom oatmeal, do you?-Yes, we put our own name in print.
49693 .. This is the Health Act, section 39. I presume these are the words that necessitate your
branding your mustard :-"Any article of food enclosed in or hearing any cover, capsule, wrapper, labelled
seal, or euclosme, or imprint, or mark by which such article is made to represent that which it is not.'' Is
that the reason, because there is nothing in tl1is to enforce the exact language you use ?-No, we have to
conform to the Act by saying that "There are other wholesome ingredients." ·
49694. Then, as a matter of fact, this is not mustard that you have here ?-It is not all mustard,
but it is what is known in the trade and everywhere as mustanl.
49695. Would not it do to call it a "Whisky blend" ?-It might do if it were a whisky.
49696. Have you anything fnrther to add ?-No.
49697. By the Gfwirman.-~Those are the only items you wish to speak about ?-That is all. In
speaking about mustard a little while ago, probably I have ereated the impression in the mind of the Commission
that we do not manufacture genuine mustard, but we also manufacture genuine, as well as the
other qualities.
'l'he witness vJitAclrew.
Leonard Parsons,
8th May l8B3.
Leonard Parsons sworn and examined.
49698. By the Clu:tvnnctn.-·where is your place of bnsines '?-Bomke-street.
,!9699. How long has it been established ?~We have been in business about twenty years.
49700. How many hands do you employ?-Thirty.
49701. vve have a return here, twenty-five-is that correct?-Thirty now.
49702. What are the principal lines that you manufacture ?-Oatmeal, rice, coffee, I should like to
speak of.
49703. You heard the evidence of the previous witness upon the question of oats and oatmeal, do
you agree with that ?-I think we should have the duty off oats altogether. We all have a bond, and
manufacture under the su1Jervision of an officer, and I do not see why we should not be a.llowed to have all
the oats free, because we cannot get oats in the colony suitable J'or oatmeal, or very few indeed. They are
all full of blacks and tares, and when you get your porridge in the morning it is full of seeds and blacks,
and there are rows every day. I approve of it in reference to starch and rice, and we .do not see why it
cannot be done in oatmeal. ·
.;;;. On revising his evidettce t11e witness desired to withdraw this answer rt~cl to substitute the word "JS\;."

1471
49704. Approve of what ?-You take off the duty from rice for the manufacture of starch, and I do Leomlr~Parsons,
not see why oats cannot he in the same way. It will not hurt the farmer at all. Bt~~"~~sa.
49705. A s.peciu,l clause in the Customs Act allows of the manufacture of rice into starch ; the Legislatiue
has attempted to meet you by allowing the oatmeal m:.mufacturor to make in bond ; but I understand
you to go further than that. Your reason for asking for a removal o£ the clnty i::; that the loeal supply of the
kinds of oats suitable for your businesl:l does not come up to your demand ?--No, it does not.
49706. That is the ground upou which you ask for it?-Y os.
49707. Y on heard the evidence of the previous witness upon the question of mustard-are you
interested in that article '?-No, I do not understand mustard.
49708. Do you understand rice-you are interested in that?-Yes.
49709. Do you agree with his evidence upon that point ?-Not altogether. He is wrong about the
amount it costs to dress in bond. The reason we get the concession made, 4s. against 6s., we have to pay
freight and wharfage rates, and a variety of charges upon the raw rlce when it comes here, besides the
dressing and all the bags and cart;uge, and no end of things. The difference of duty is fully the amount
of £2.
49710. The differential duty of £2 is absorbed in the expenses?-Yes; in the expenses from the time
it leaves the port of shipment till the time we send it out it is quite that.
49711. Have you anything else to add i11 relation to the article of rice '?-No, I think it woulcl be
very wrong if it were altered.
· 49712. You do not manufacture starch, do you ?-No.
49713. Coffee is the next item. Will you tell us what you have to say about that ?-I think it is
about time the duty upon coffee was reduced. I do not see why there should be 3d. a pound upon coffee; it
is a great thing for the public; and it causes so much adulteration with chicory, and we grow so much
chicory in the colony, to reduce the quality ; too much chicory is put in. I think if coffee is allowed in,
say, at a penny, you would get a much better article.
49714. Adulteration with chicory is very largely carried on?-Yes, very largely.
49715. Is it not possible for the public to protect themselves by buying the beans themselves?-Yes,
you can do that; but it is the price; and then there is cocoa and all those things.
49716. Yon propose the duty on coffee to be reduced to a penny ?-I think it would be a good thing.
49717. You import the beans, do you'?-Yes, we import the beans and grind them ourselves.
49718. Is there the same duty upon the ground article?-Yes, 3cl. a pound upon everything.
49719. Have you anything further to say ?-No, I have nothing further to say.
49720. Are those the only items in your business that pay a clnty ?-There is bmley.
49721. Do you manufacture pearl barley ?-Yes.
49722. Are you satisfied with the duty upon that ?-Yes.
49723. By Jh. Walker.-With reference to dressing rice in boncl, you state that in addition to the
labour of putting it through the mill there is cartage upon it?-Yes, and freight ftnd charges at the port of
shipment to start with, and then there nre wharfage rates and cartage and re-bagging.
49724. Are not nll those charges on undressed rice ?-Yes.
49725. Then how does that put you to extra expense ?-The dressed rice, the labour is so much
cheaper.
49726. That is a different matter altogether ?-As a matter of fact, cartage is upon both dressed and
undressed rice-both have to be cartecl.
49727. Then neither has an advantage over the other in tlmt ?-But then there is the 4 cwt. of pig
feed.
49728. What comes off is what you do not pay duty upon ?-No, but we have to pay freight and
charges upon it.
49729. You sell it here as pig feed ?-Sometimes we get 2s. or 3s. a cwt.
49730. When you do not get that clo you give it away ?-Sometimes next door to it.
49731. At all ~vents what you get pays the freight?-Yes.
49732. It comes here in bags, does not it ?-Yes, perhaps full of weevil, and we have to sell those
bags that cost us 8d. to 9d. each, and buy new bags here that cost 3s. 6d. a dozen.
49733. You buy new bags altogether of a different character thin bao-s.
49734. You would make that change in any ease from the gunny bags to yo~r own bags '?-Yes.
49735. So that all those charges are not necessa.rily connected with dressing in bond. That is, they
apply to rice all round '?-I do not altogether see that. Dressed rice be sent down in 56 lb. bags.
That is often done, and then no new bags are required.
49736. Can you give us the actual cost of dressing rice in bond ?-The actmtl cost of dressing rice
in bond varies.
49737. Leaving everything else on one side, putting it through the mill ?-It would cost. a pound a
ton really.
49738. Mr. Parsons, have you ever dressed rice in bond for anybody else?-Yes.
49739. Vllhat do you charge them ?-Various charges.
49740. W1utt do you charge them ?-We have charg(3d as high as £2 a ton, and we have done one
lot at 12s. 6d.
49741. Why did you do that at 12s. 6d. ?-Simply because it was rnn through very light.
49742. Then it is possible to run it through very light and yet get £2 from the Custom house?­
No, it is not possible now.
49743. What stopped it ?-The Customs say that that is dressed rice, and they will not allow that
stuff to go through now.
49744. Then upon that occasion it wa.~ defrauding the Customs ?-I do not know that. The officers
said it was undressed; it is a matter of opinion. I say, if the rice has td go through the mill, it is undressed
rice.
49745. If it hns to go through ?-Yes.
49746. "What do you mean by "If it luts to go through" ?-If the rice is not fit to send out, and
people will not buy it, and consider it shonlcl go through the mill and be reduced.
49747. And if it costs only 12s. 6d. a ton, you think you are justified in getting from the rev en ne
40s. ?-No, I clo not think so at all-thnt was a very special thing.

.eonard Parsons,
st~o~i~';'l'~~a.
1
C. W. Derbn.m,
Sth 1\!ay 1883.
1472
49748. By Mr. Lobb.-With regard to oats, I understood you to say you had a very great difficulty
in getting the oats you require to produce oatmeal here ?-Sometimes we cannot get them. .
49749. What oats do you generally use ?-We generally use New Zealand, and pay the extra prlCe.
49750. What kind do you call them ?-Potato or milling oats we call them. .
49751. Do you use others ?-Sometimes we use Victorians when can get them clean, but we object
to them strongly.
49752. Do you ever use Tartarlan ?-No, there is too much bran about them.
49753. You use New Zealand oats, why?-Because they are such a superior article. .
49754. The oatmeal you sell to your customers-what do you make it from ?-New Zealand oats.
49755. You pay duty upon them?-Yes, and have been doing for the last three months. They
cannot grow them here.
49756. Could not they be grown here ?-They can be if the farmers are more careful, but I have.
never seen any Victorian oats equal to New Zealand.
49757. What price ttre they in the market ?-Three shillings and threepence and 3s. 4d. to-day.
49758. What are New Zealand oats worth to-day ?-I suppose about 3s. 6d. with the duty.
49759. That is a little more?-Yes.
49760. Are they both of the same quality ?-No, the New Zealand oats are heavier and better and
cleaner. There is no rubbish in them at all.
49761. You are not like some gentlemen who gave evidence to-day, who used colonial oats for
colonial consumption ?-Because they go in to save the price. We prefer the good quality, and let the
people have some good porridge. .
49762. By tlte Cltairman.-Have you anything further to add ?-No.
The witness withdrew.
Charles W alter Derham sworn and examined.
49763. By the Chai,rman ....-Are you a representative of the firm of Derham and Company ?-Yes.
49764. Where is your place of business ?-In Queen-street.
49765. How long have you been in business as a grain merchant ?-We have been in the present
business only five months, but our predecessors, my brother and :Mr. Swallow, were in business for many
years.
49766. Have you been in the business previously ?-Yes.
49767. Though not as the proprietor ?-Yes.
49768. How many years have you been engaged in the business yourself?-! have been seventeen
years altogether in the business ; that is, I was in the business seventeen years ago, and left it for a time, and
came back about six years ago.
49769. Do you confine your operations to any particular lines ?-We are flour and grain and sack
merchants.
49770. Under the heading of grain, what kinds of grain ?-All sorts of grain.
49771. What do you wish to say to the Commission in relation to the duty upon flour, which is the
first article-are you satisfied with the duty upon it ?-I do not think it would make much difference if it
were removed ; I do not think the duty affects the price of flour here now, because we are exporters of flour ;
but, of course, if there were a failure of crop, or something like that, it would affect the price ; only in that
case.
49772. Was not there a small import of flour or wheat just previous to the last harvest, through our
having over-exported in the earlier months of the year ?-No, we did not.
49773. Now come to the question of grain. Of course the same argument willl apply to wheat, will
it not, as applies to flour ?-Yes. ·
49774. Now, as to the question of oats, what have you say to the duty upon oats ?-I think it
should be removed. ·
49775. What effect would it have upon your business as a grain merchant if it were removed ?-It
would improve our business.
49776. Have you any business in colonial oats-is there any business for the importers or merchants
between the growers and those who manipulate it ?-We have agents in all parts of the colony to buy grain
for us, including oats, and likewise to consign to us on the part of the farmers for us to sell on commission
on his account.
49n7. Do you think you would do more business of that sort if oats were imported ?-I think so.
49778. More business with the people. in the country here ?-That would be a question; I do not
know about that. I believe our business would increase.
49779. You would do more import business, you believe, but it would interfere with your internal
business ?-No, it would not interfere with our internal business; the man who gives the highest price to
the farmer gets the goods, and we should be prepared to do that.
49780. Would there not be a chance of the farmer shortening his crop of oats through competition
with the imported ?-He might.
49781. Then your business with oat growers in this colony would be so much curtailed, would it not 1
-I do not think we grow sufficient oats for our own use here.
49782. We do not yet ?-No.
49783. And if you lose the duty, is there not a probability that we shall grow less ?-I think there
is ; but it would go into something else, such as barley or wheat, which would be more profitable.
49784. As to wheat, we a long time ago reached the limit of our own supply and are exporting.
The farmer wonlcl not get a better price for his wheat, however much he grew. It pays the farmer better to
grow oats now, which have not yet reached the exporting point, consequently the duty gives some advantage
till it does reach that price. Do you think that if you removed the dnty upon oats, the farmer would produce
wheat, which is already over-supplied ?-It is not over-supplied ; we supply more than our own want

1473
49786. Oats have not yet reached that stage, have they ?-No.
49787. Consequently we may assume that the farmer does get the benefit of the duty upon oats to
some extent, does he not '?-He gets the benefit of the duty, but he has to pay it in ocher ways.
49788. In what other ?-In the other duties he has to pay.
49789. That is another altogether. I want to get at now. ii'I
your business would be improved br removing the dnty from oacs ?-IIz:cau:;e l l "' · ·
and we should have a larger quantity to bundle.
49790. You think you wouhl do a larger business, but it would be mol·e in importee[ oats than in
home-grown oats I could not actually say that. 1 believe our business would be large'!', because we
should have both.
49791. Now, as to the question of barley, what have you to say about the duty upon that ?-I think
the barley duty shouid be removed.
49792. On what ground ?-Because I do not think we grow more barley than we actually want for
our own use.
49793. We do not grow so much ?-It is ::tbout ; opinions differ as to that, but it is said to
be about enough ; the erop this year is said to be enough.
49794. If it were all of suitable kinds, I suppose, and kept here for particular purposefJ ?-Yes.
49795. Would there be any harm done to the grain merchants or the farmers if we allowed this
question of removing the duty upon barley to wait for a year or two, until the supply of barley had reached
the same positiem that the supply of wheat has done-till the time when our farmers have grown BO much
barley that there will be no question about having a surplus for export ?-I would not like to say exactly as
to that ; I do not know.
49796. Do you deal in malt? -No.
'±9797. Any other article that you deal in do you wish to speak about ?-No, I have no remarks to
make.
49798. How about the duty upon maize? -I think the mttize duty Bhonld he removed.
49799. HEtVe you any knowledge of the qualities of maize ?-I can tell good maize if I see it ; I have
a certain knowledge.
49800 . .Have you had any experience in the different kinds of maize-our Victorian nmize, and
New South Wales maize, and Queensland m~tize; can you BlJGak as to the different qualities of those
different kinds of grain for feed purposes ?-Yes, I think so.
49801. Which is the best quality of the tlnee ?-The Queensland and the New South Wales maize
are about the same, ttncl they are better than our own maize.
49802. Are you comparing it with the maize grown in Gippsland ?-Yes.
49803. In what respects is the imported or foreign maize better than our own say that it is
easier crushed. ·
49804. You have no personal experience in that?-\Ve do not crush, we are merely the first hands.
'i9805. You have no knowledge of their relative qualities yourself ?-I have no actual practical
knowledge myself. I have only the knowledge that I learn from my customers.
49806. Which fetches the higher price ?-Last year, I think, they were somewhere about the same ;
but in previous years the 90 days maize-that is the Gippsland m~tize-used to fetch rather more than the
imported article, because it was used for seed or something of that kind ; but a very small quantity was
grown.
49807. Would not that argue that it was better th2,n the imported rather than worse?-No, because
when it commenced to be largely grown it dropped beneath the imported maize.
49808. It was bought for seed because of its peculiar character then 7-Yes.
49809. Have you anything further to !Kld ?-No, I do not wish to say anything further.
49810. By Mr. ilfclntyre.-As a merchant, do you deal in imported gTain ?-Yes.
49811. What is the price of the imported article iu oats at present as compared with the colonial?-
Oats in bond are worth 2s. 6d. and 2s. 7cl. or perhaps 2s. 8d. per bushel to-clay.
49812. And the local article ?-3s. 4d.
49813. Then, if the duty were taken off, would the local article sell cheaper ?-Certainly it would.
49814. Then the farmer wouhl suffer to that extent ?-Yes, he would.
49815. There is a difference then of lOLl. a bushel at present between the bonded article and the
local article ?-Yes, very nearly 10d.
49816. Is the local article as good as the imported ?-:No, it is not.
49817. Then the community is suffering to th&t extent--the general consumer suffers to that extent
and gets an inferior article ?-Yes, I agree with the gentleman who went before me to that extent.
49818. The importation of oats has very largely fttllen off?-Yes, to some extent certainly it has.
49819. Yon think the farruers could turn their attention to producing articles more suitable to the
soil than oats, as this reduction took place ?-I know nothing about farming, but my partner, Mr. Kyd,
expresses that opinion, and other farmers I have heard say that it is not an oat-growing country. You
cannot grow oats here as you can in New Zealand.
49820. By the Hon. 1111'. Lori·mer.-Supposing the duties c::tnnot be repe~led, would a reduction to
1s. a cental give you greater f::tcilities ?·-I think it would.
49821. Sixpence a bushel ?-Yes, ls. a cental would be ,'5d. a bushel.
49822. Then you would prefer going back to the olcl duty ?-I would prefer its entire removal.
49823. And if you cannot get the entire removt~l you would have a reLluction ?-Yes, whatever you
can. I should say that we deal largely in corn sacks ::mcl bran bags and all kinds of sacks, so perhaps you
may want to ask me a question in relation to that.
49824. What do you recommend in relation to that ?-The removal of the duty.
49825. Would the public get the advantage of that ?-The farmers would of course.
49826. The farmer would get the advantage of the removal of tlie duty?-Yes, I think so.
49827. HaYe you any experience of the market in sacks for the last few years ?-Yes, for a number
of years.
49828. Has not the establishment of the manufactlU'e here had the effect of steadying the market,
as it is termed, in relation to this matter ?-I do not think the local factory has ha~l the slightest effect upon
the market. 'I'he marlwt has had an effect upon the local factory, I think.
TARIFF.
9 A
c. W. Del'lHtm,
continued,
Sth ll:Iay 1883.

c, w. Derbam,
contmued,
8th May 1883.
Ronu.Jd Robb,
lltb May 1883,
1474
49829. By Jlfr. Lobb.-Do I understand you to say that the Victorian climate is not suited to the
growth of oats ?-Of course I am only repeating what I have heard. 1 have heard it, not from any one
person in particular, but from several persons.
·19830. I say that we can grow as good oats as any country in the world ?-In some parts no doubt
it eau be done.
The witness withdrew.
Ronald Robb sworn aud examined.
49831. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-A trader.
49832. And importer of grain ?-Not particularly; I am more particul::wly in trade, buying and
selling ; occasionally I import.
49833. You are a dealer in grain?-Yes.
49834. Where is your place of business ?-Flinders-street.
49835. How long have you been in the business ?-About seventeen years in Melbourne ancl
suburbs.
49836. You have hea-rd the evidence of the previous witness in relation to the duty upon the various
grains-do you desire to add :1nything to tha.t evidence, or to contradict it in any way ?-There is nothing
I can contradict so far. I perfectly agree with his evidence so far that the duties ought to be entirely
removed from all grain and bags. ·
49837. You used the words "so far ''-clo you go farther than he does ?-In reply to a question
from the Hon. Mr. Lorimer, he said he would approve of the duty being reduced upon oats ; now I
think that the duty upon all grain ought to be entirely removed in this country.
49838. He said so too; he said if we cannot take it off entirely, a reduction would be advantageous?
-Yes, I agree with that.
49839. Have you anything to add to his evidence that he omitted to state ?-I have had a great
deal of experience in the trade, and I know the working of it. I know that the duty upon oats is
hampering the Melbourne trade entirely. :For instance, Queensland buyers go now to the Sydney
market. Oats are sent direct from New Zealand now in large quantities to Sydney, instead of coming
to Melbourne. The Queensland buyers go there and buy, because in sending oats from New Zealand to
Sydney the consignor knows that he has not to pay the duties. If he cannot sell the oats for transhipment
in Sydney, he can sell them in Syclney without having to pay duty. Therefore the consumer in
Sydney gets oats at a much less price than the consmner in Melbourne does, and, >ts a representative
of the consumer, I say it is taking it out of his pocket and putting it into the pocket of some one
else.
49840. Now, not speaking as a representative of the consumers, but simply as a dealer, will you
explain to the Commission what injury is done to Melbourne and :Melbourne dealers by this business being
done in Sydney instead of Melbourne ?-We do not get the handling of it here; the ships are laid on direct
to Sydnfly. and it does not come here.
49841. Are the ships Melbourne or Sydney ships ?-They may be either, it makes no difference; a
ship will go wherever the trade is.
49842. But is the trade carried on in Sydney ships or Melbourne ships ?-The "Union Steamship
Company has now gone to New Zealand; it will eventually leave Melbourne altogether, I think.
49843. Then it is a New Zealand company that carries it ?~It was a Melbourne firm, the firm
of McMeckan, Blackwood, and Company; but on account of these duties and one thing and another, it has
entirely taken it out of the hands of the Melbourne shipowners.
49844. The Melbourne port loses the duties ?-The Melbourne port loses the duties, and the
Melbourne dealer loses the profits.
49845. And the Melboi1rne workman loses the wages of handling ?-Yes. I may state a fact that
happened this week. A gentleman from Brisbane asked me the price of oats; I gave him a quotation for ·
oats in bond. He told me he could buy them cheaper in Sydney; therefore he saves the freight from here
to Sydney, and buys a penny cheaper in Sydney than here; and I used to trade with him, but Sydney has
cut me entirely out of the market.
'
49846. Have you anything to add ?-I think the duty upon bags is entirely unnecessary.
49847. There is the same duty upon bags in Sydney; that does not affect you as to the Sydney
market; so if the duty upon bags were removed, it would give you a pull against Sydney, would it not, in
that item ?-I do not see that it would make much difference.
49848. If it makes a difference against you when the cluty is on, it must make the same difference .
in your favour if it is off ?~I think there ought to be a rebate or refund of the duty upon bags when
exported with the grain. Upon the other goods there is a drawback ; why should there not be upon the
bags when they are tilled? In that case it would benefit the farmers and every one. The only one who
has to pay through the nose for it is the Victorian consumer; he pays clearer.
49849. Have you anything further to say ?-No.
498.50. By l'rb-. Lobb.-Are you in favour of a Custom-house ?-If it could be clone without, certainly
uot.
49851. I understood you to say that all the protection of the farmers, the duty, should be taken off?
-Yes, if bags and implements were free.
49852. Would you not go a little further and do away with the Custom-house altogether ?-If
possible, I would. I may state that I deal a great deal with the farmers, and I think the general feeling
amongst them is that, if the duties upon agricultural machinery and other things were removed, they would
be quite satisfied to concede the question of grain. It is merely because they feel that they are handicapped
so heavily with other duties. And there was another question with regard to South Australia, and the
reason why South Australia can or did produce cheaper was because the agricultural machinery can be
bol1ght at a mucille8s price than ours. It is not altogether a question of cost, for I think that labour in
South Australia and hero is about equal, while the reason tl1at produce is a less price is that they can
buy agricultural implements for a less price.
49853. By tile Cltairman.-In making that statement, are you speaking from your own knowledge,
or just giving t\5 the experienc

1475
49854. Will you give us a case in point of the coBt of agricultural implements here making the
cost of production so much larger ?-I have seen the difference in the duties, and the matter has been
discussed so fully in the papers, and the amount of differsnce in the duties stated.
49855. I do not ask about newsp!tper discussion ; I ask you for a cuse in point. You say you speak
from your own ei.perience in muking that statement. Cn.n you give the Commission a case in poiut in
which machinery is so much enhanced in price by the dnties that it makes the cost of the grain grown, by
the use of that machinery, so great that we cannot compete with other colonies ?-No, I cannot give a case;
it is merely a matter of opinion as a trader.
49856. By M~·. Lohb.-There are many other things beside machinery that are enhanced?­
Everything all round; leave the farmer free, and he can grow as cheap as any one else.
The witness withdre~o.
49857.
49858.
49859.
49860.
49861.
give ?-Yes.
removed.
George Nipper sworn and examined.
By the Chairman.-Are you of the :firm of Nipper and See ?-Yes.
You are an importer of grain ?-Importer and exporter.
How long have you been iu this business ?-Nineteen years.
You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses ?-Yes.
Will you state as briefly as you can to the Commission the additional evidence you wish to
I would propose that either the whole or the greater proportion of the duty upon maize be
49862. Then you agree with the evidence of Mr. Derham in relation to that ?-Yes.
49863. Is it the only item you wish to refer to ?-And also oats.
49864. You agree with all the others upon that and wheat also.
49865. Then I understand you to agree with the evidence given by the previous witnesses in relation
to the removal of those duties?-Yes.
49866. Have you got anything additional to say that they left unsaid ?-No.
49867. By the Hon. Mr. Lorimer.-You are something more than an importer a.nd exporter of grain,
are you not ?-Yes.
49868. What are you ?-I am a steamship owner, and I have other vessels; in fact I am what
might be called a general merchant, I suppose.
49869. Do you suppose that your business as a steamboat proprietor has been diminished by this
duty upon oats?-Yes, very much so.
49870. You .would be able to do a larger trade if it were taken off?-Yes, and a more profitable
trade. I am not quite altogether selfish in the matter ; I have a considerable feeling for the cabmeu. Last
year, maize being so clear, we could harilly import any maize at all, while we used to import 100,000 bags
a year.
49871. Is it not a fact that the steamboat owners of Melbourne are very much hampered by these
duties ?-Yes, very much so. It makes very little difference, I think, now to the farmers of Victoria in
reference to importing wheat here.
49872. By the Chairman.-Have you been long engaged in the shipping business ?-We have eleven
vessels. We commencecl buying vessels about seventeen years ago, and we increased from one np to
eleven, and then we commenced to sell our vessels and went into steam. We have been into steam, I
suppose, eight years, aml up to the present time we have eleven, small and large. I think we have only
two :vessels left.
49873. Yoll saicl to the Hon. Mr. Lorimer that your business had diminished ?-The grain business.
49874. But he specially asked about your business as a steam-vessel proprietor, which you said had
diminished ?-Then I mistook Mr. Lorimer as to my business dirninishing.
49875. Your business as a steam-vessel proprietor has increased ?-I bought steamers to work my
business. ·
49876. And yonr business in that line has gone on increasing ?-Yes, my business in that line has
gone on increasing.
49877. Notwithstanding the duties ?-Notwithstanding the duties.
49878. So the duties clid not make your business decrease ?-No; but taking the duty off would
increase my business very much more, and that is how I understood Mr. Lorimer to ask me.
49879. Now I understand the matter clearly, that your business absolutely has increased, notwithstanding
the duties ?-I have seven or eight businesses altogether; this is not my principal place; Sydney
is my head office ; this is only a bmnch of my business. I have another in V{ arrm,mbool, another at
Belfast, and we have four in New South Wales.
49880. But I understand thn.t, notwithstanding the increase you have, you are under the impression
that the abolition of the duties would increase it still more?-Yes; we have only one steamer running here,
and it is a great dea.l through the increased duties all the other steamers run to New South Wales, and all
our business seems to be going there. I am not paying expenses here, as far as my business is coneerned,
and it is all through the hen.vy duties. I .used to import 100,000 bags of maize here, and now I clo. not
import 10,000.
49881. By !Jfr. ~'VIclntyre.-That is your experience as a shipowner-that the shipping business is
all being drawn away from Melbourne ?-Yes.
The ~oit1wss ~oithdrew.
Ronn.ld Rohb,
continued,
8th May 1883.
George Nipper,
8th May I 683..
J ames Lowry Irving sworn and examined.
49882. By the Cltaimwn.-Wbat are you ?-I am a gmin merchant. .
49883. Have you been long in business ?-Twenty-five years.'
49884. You hoxe heard theevideuce of previous witnesses in this business ?-Yes.
49885. Do you desire to controvert that evidence in any respect ?-Not altogether controvert it;
but I have an idea that it is not protection we are hn.ving, it is prohibition at the present time.
.r. L. Irvlng,
8tll May 1883,

J ~ L. Irving 1
conti:nved.
·8th May 1883,
C. G. Turner,
8th May 1883.
1476
49886. 1V e do not want to go into a discussion upon politics; we want to keep to facts if we can.
Do you disagree with the evidence that previous witnesses have given ?-Not altogether.
49887. In what respect do you disagree with them ?-I think we are not prepared to sweep away
all our Customs duties at present. Of course a revenue must be collected. ·
· 49888. You do not agree with their evidence so far.as the total abolition of the grain duties goes?­
No, not altogether.
49889. What do you recommend in place of it ?-I recommend the duties upon oats and barley to
be reduced and maize to be reduced one-half.
49890. What about wheat?-·wheat, I do not see that it is any use at all, it is a hindrance.
49891. You agree with them about wheat ?-Yes, it is a hindrance.
49892. What else do you wish to say ?--Pulse and bran, that ought to be swept away altogether
too.
None is coming here, and the duty is very high.
49893. Take the duty away altogether?-Certainly.
49894. What else ?-The reason, I say, wheat we fire now ex1Jorting, wheat and flour, both to a
large extent, and the injury that the duty upon the wheat does is that we cannot get a change of seed into
this colony; it always is desirable for a farming community to change their seed from one climate to another,
so as to produce a better sample and better crops.
49895. You agree with the evidence of Mr. Gibson ?-Cmtainly I do, as I have orders for wheat
and oats from New Zealand, but the excessive duty has prevented my bringing thel'n into the market except
at an excessive price.
49896. Is there any other point you wish to refer to ?-I do not know of anything else.
The witness VYithcl!rev;.
Chal'les George Turner sworn and examined.
49897. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-Grain merchant.
49898. How long have you been in the business ?-About twelve years.
49899. Will you state to the Commission, please, what you wish to add to the evidence of the
previous witnesses ?-I particularly wish to refer to the duty upon bran and pollard. I should prefer to
see it swept away altogether ; I do not see any reason for it at all.
49900. You propose the abolition of the duty upon bran and·pollard ?-Yes.
49901. That, I think, was the evidence o.f the biscuit manufacturers, was not it?-Yes, I think it
was, and mostly bran runs very scarce here at times; there i.s not sufficient produced here.
49902. In consequence of the very fine dressed flour, and it does not leave much ?-The millers
do not produce snfficient brn.n and pollard, and occasionally it becomes very high in price, and the duty
being very high, something like 5d. a bnshel, we cannot get it in.
49903. Do you produce bran and pollard at all, or do you simply deal ~nit '?-We simply deal in it.
I think the duty upon wheat and flour should be swept awa,y, as it is simply useless, and I do not see why
the millers should be protected by a duty upon bran and pollard. It is not necessary to them, and it
makes things much clearer. ·
4990,1. Is there anything else?-With regard to the duties upon grain, I should be inclined to go
back to the old tariff rather than take it off altogether, that is a shilling a cental upon oats and barley and
6d. upon maize. I do not think it would be a good thing to sweep away the duties altogether.
49905. You agree with 1\fr. Irving that it would be better to halve the duties upon oats, barley, and
maize
I think we shall soon be able to grow sufficient oats and barley for ourselves.
49906. Looked at in that light, would it not be better to keep them two years longer, and sweep
them away with the rest ?-No, I think not.
49907. \Vhy ?-I think it would be easier for the farmer. He could easily give us half the duty.
49908. But as soon as the farmers produce sufficient to supply our wants the thing rights itself?­
But oats is not like wheat; you will never get to the position you are in with wheat that you can be always
exporters. Some years you may export, and some years you would have to import. I thinl< the farmer has
so far had it all his own way with the 2s. duty, and now he ought to give the consumer a little show; and
the same with maize; the maize duty ha,s been a very heavy taxation upon the cabmen and wharfmen.
49909. As a mere dealer in the article, it wcmld make no difference to you, would it ?-It would
make a difference. We should do a much .larger business i:l' there were no duties.
49910. More export business ?-J'r1ore export business. Thn.t is where it troubles llS.
49911. vYould it tend to make Melbourne more and more the centre of the grain trade of the colonies?
~I think so, decidedly.
49912. W oulcl it help to get back the steam trade business, which, we are told, has altogether
forsaken us, thongh we see EO many at the wharf ?-I think it would, and it would certainly bring more
trafii.c here; fOT instance, the ·whole produce of the north coast of Tt1Sl.llania, if there were no duties, would
come here. .A.t P'·'e:~mlt it goes to Sydney or wherever can sell it, but it never comes here.
the Hon. Jlfr. Lo?'imer.--You W2vnt to go back to the 1877 tariff ?-Yes.
49914. w:1s 6d. a cental on maize then ?--Yes.
49915. Do you think you wm1ld have a duty upon maize at all ?-I think you ought to have a duty
upon maize, or you would have o::tts such a miserable by competition with maize.
49916. What would the oat grower here do would go into wheat growing.
49917. Would he be any the worse at that?-I cannot say.
49918. Do you think it pays as well to grow oats and barley as wheat '?-Some men it does ; it
depends upon the climate and the soil.
profitable.
For instance, at Lancefield you could not grow wheat to be
The witness withdrew.
Edward Vale,
8th May 1885.
Edward Vale sworn and examined.
49919. B,y the Chairman.-What are you ?-Cab proprietor.
49920. You are a delegate this afternoon from the Cabmen's Union ?-Yes.
49921. How many cabmen belong to that union ?-About 700.

1417
49922. What pTopoTtion does that beaT to the number in :Melbourne and suburbs ?-I suppose that
is to say not cab proprietoTs ?
49923. Does any one belong to the union beside cab proprietors ?-Yes, drivers belong to the union;
there are 942 cabowners. ·
49924. And how many drivers ?-I could not say. I should think perhaps 1,000 drivers. I am told
there are I, 700 and oclu.
49925. That is 2,600 altogether ?-Yes.
49926. ~L\.nd in the union there are how many ?-Seven hundred and sixty-four.
49927. You were appointed at an ordinary meeting of the union ?-I have received a letter. I was
chairman of the union at the time I waited as a deputation upon you, and through that I received this notice
from the Commission.
49928. Then you had not been appointed by the union to come here ?-No, I could not be, for this was
only sent last night, and I am here to-day, so no appointment from any person could have taken place. I was
appointed formerly, months ago.
49929. Y on were appointed by the union some months ago?-Ye11.
49930. And only got your notice to attend last night?-Yes.
49931. When you were appointed, was it an ordinary meeting of the union ?-Yes, I was chairman of
the meeting.
49932. So when you speak here to-clay you give the views of the union upon the question?-Yes.
49933. What have you to say as a representative of the union upon the duty upon grain ?-As far as
the union ancl the whole body of cabs is concern!3d, the duty upon grain is very oppressive to us, inasmuch as
we are a body of men that are very heavily taxed by the corporations.
49934. Do not go into that, we have nothing to do with it here ?-I only want to point out to you where
it falls heavily upon us. Upon bakers, butchers, and grocers, and those people that purchase their commodity
from merchants, it does not press so heavily, because they can raise their commodities according to the price of
the market. Now, we as a body of men, cannot raise our fares.
49935. Let me ask can a baker raise the price o:i' his loaf if his horse feed is higher ?-Yes, be
can.
49936. No, surely he cannot?-Yes, of course it is a question of supply and demand.
4:9937. the :flour out of which he makes his bread rises in price, then he can mise the price of
bread ?-Yes, certainly, that is what I am stating, that is his commodity.
'
49938. You keep your horse to do your business with, do not you ?-Yes.
4:9939. And the baker keeps a horse to do his business, does not be?-Yes.
49940. If the price of horw feed rises and the baker has to pay a few shillings a week more for the
feed of his horse, he does not raise the price of his loaf because of that, does he ?-No, I suppose not.
49941. If the price of flour rises ?-Then he rises; but if the price of horse feed rises, we cannot rise
our fares.
49942. Neither can he rise the price of his bread ?-He might, or he might not. I think he might;
but we cannot increase, because by law we are only allowed to charge a certain fare. For instance, if flour
is £20 a ton in the market, a baker can raise his loaf in proportion; but if maize goes up 10s. a bushel, the
cabman cannot raise his fare, be is tied clown by law. We, as a body of men, do not go in for the wholesale
taking off of all duties right off from maize, we wish the farmer to live as well as the cabman; but we consider
that paying 2s. a cen~al on maize is too much, for tl1e farmer cannot produce it here in sufficient
quantity to give to the cabman if he wanted it.
49943. 1Vhat do you propose-a reduction to one-half ?-A reduction to one-half or the whole of
the duty taken off maize, because maize is a thing that cannot he well produced here except in Gippsland,
and the Gippsland maize is of not so good a quality as the Sydney maize, and it is not so hard or so meally
in substance.
49944. And the duty upon oats should be reduced the same ?-Certainly; only the duty upon maize
might be taken off entirely, and still keep the duty upon oats. I cannot see why the farmer asks for a duty
upon ma1ze whrm he cannot produce the article here. ·
49945. That raises the whole question. They say that they can ?~All I can say is that they do
not. I am as strong a protectionist as ::\fr. Mirams is, but I cannot deal in inconsistencies at any time. I
do not think that things that cannot be produced here we should pay over our noses for.
49946. Your evidence is that you wish the duty upon oats to be reduced one-half, and the duty upon
maize to be reduced the whole if possible, and, if not, you will be satisfied with half being taken off?-We
shall be satisfied with anything we can get.
49947. Anything further to aucl ?-Nothing further than we are heavily taxed.
49948. And when oats rise in the market can you tell me what difference it makes in the weekly
expenditure of a cabman who has a cab and only two horses ?~That depends upon the price of the article.
We were paying 7s. 6d. for maize last year, and now it is 4s. 6c1.
49949. How many bushels do you require for two horses in a week ?-At least six bushels.
49950. ~L\.ncl if the duty is ls. a bushel, that is equivalent to 6s. a week?-Yes.
49951. Do you prefer maize to oats for feed?-Yes, in winter time; and I most certainly concur with
a gentleman who gave evidence here upon .Kew Zealand oats, that the New Zealand oats are far superior to
the Victorian oats. .
49952. Even for feeding purposes ?-Even for feeding purposes, as well as for milling purposes ; if
the substance is in the oat, it is as good for the horse aa it is for the miller to take it out and make it into
meal, because the fattening and strengthening substance certainly must be in the meal.
The witness withdrew.
Edward Vale,
continutd,
8\llliiD.;ylS&:l.
William Harris sworn and examined:.
49953. By tl

Willln.m Hnrrls,
. · CiJnli:JJ/Ued;··
8! h May 1883,
1478
oats should be 6d. a cental, inasmuch as experience has taught us that Victoria cannot produce a supply
equal to the demand, not only in quantity but quality, for any person acquainted with feeding grains will
not buy Victorian oats if he can get New Zealand oats; and I think, if possible, the bnrthen should be
removed from us.
49956. I understand that to be the same evidence that Mr. Vale gave ?-'-No, he went to a shilling.
I would put on 6d. merely for revenue purposes.
1lfr. Vale.-I said halve the duty upon oats and take o:!f the maize duty altogether.
The Witness.-Much has been said about Gippslancl as a maize-growing country. Opportunities
have been afforded them to grow maize and there is very little maize comes from Gippsland; very little, so
little that it is only a farce. The consumer has got to pay for it merely as a luxury.
49957. Have you anything further to add ?-Nothing further.
The witnf3ss withdrew .
.Adjourned to to-morrow, at Two o'clock.
('
Charles DrapEr,
9th May I88o,
WEDNESDAY, 9TH MAY, 1883.
Present:
.J. MoiNTYRE, Esq., M.L.A., in the Chair;
J. Bosisto, Esq., M.L.A., W. M. Cook, Esq.,
W. J. Lobb, Esq., Hon. J. Lorimer, M.L.C.,
D. Munro, Esq., J. Mirams, Esq., M.L.A.
F. Longmore, Esq.,
Charles Draper sworn and examined.
49958. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-A fruit grower and farmer.
49959. Where is your place situated ?-About four miles east of Yan Yean.
49960. How far from Melbourne ?-26 miles.
49961. What area of land have you got under cultivation ?-I suppose 130 acres in fruit trees. I
have about 1,000 acres of land altogether.
49962. How long is it since you started fruit growing ?-It is about nineteen years since I first
began.
49963. And gradually you increased your operations from that time to now?-Yes.
49964. What kind of fruit do you grow ?-Chiefly apples and plums, and pears also; but chiefl
apples and peaches.
49965. What do you turn your fruit to, in the way of a market---do you sell it as fruit or to make
cider, or reduce it in any way ?--No, I send it into Melbourne market. We use a little of the refuse fruit
for cider.
49966. You do make some cicler?-We have made a little.
49967. The good fruit you send all to market ?-Yes.
49968. And the rest you make into cider ?-No; we feed cattle and pigs with it when it is
cheap.
49969. You cannot dispose of it all in the Melbourne market?-Yes, all the good fmit.
49970. What is your object in coming before the Commission to-day, what evidence clo you wish to
give upon the system of taxation of the country-does it affect your industry in any way ?-Yes, it would
do if we lose the duty of 9c1. a bushel upon apples.
49971. How long has this 9cl. duty been on ?-I am sure I cannot say ; I think it is about eight or
ten years.
49972. In 1867 the duty upon fruit of all kinds was 5d. What proportion would that bear to the
value of the article. What is the value of a bushel of apples at present ?-At present, the best Victorian
apples sell at 6s. 6d.
49973. Then 5 per cent. upon that would be about l;td.-hardly that---would that suit you ?-It
would not suit at all. You see, when apples were low, we could not cart them in at 5 per cent., it would
knock us on the head altogether.
49974. What extent of ground had you in cnltivation for fruit purposes when the duty was 5 per
cent. ?-I have increased it three or four times over since the duty was on ; it was no use growing before,
it would not pay.
49975. In 1872, when the duty was increased to 9d. a bushel, you then began to increase the area
of land for fruit?-Yes, very much. I had not one-third of it in seven or eight years ago.
49976. What is the price of the best Victorian apples ?-6s. 6d. They go up from 1s. 6d. to 6s. 6d.,
but we cannot bring in the low priced ones, it would not pay to carry them.
49977. By Mr. Lobb.-You want a railway ?-I qnestion whether that would do it.
49978. By tlte Cltairman.-Do you find the importation of fruit at present to any extent goes on,
-,-the class of fruit that you produce, viz., apples, are they imported largely ?-They are begirming to import
them now they have risen to 6s. 6d. The Tasmanians are coming in and fetching from 8s. to 8s. 6d. their
best ribstones this morning. The reason they fetch that is the large cases. When the duty was put on
they enlarged their cases, and it is more than a bushel now. Some of their cases weigh from 50 lbs. to
55 lbs. I got a case this morning, one of the new ones, and I got one of the olcl ones, and I could put the
olcl one inside the new one.
49979. That is the Tasmanian fruit ?-Yes. I think the Custom House should have looked after
them more-it is more than a bushel. They weigh from 50 lbs. I always supposed a bushel averaged
40 lbs., instead of that they run from 50 lbs. to 55 lbs., in the big cases.
. · 49980. Then the Tasmanians are more liberal than the colonials ?-Yes, but it is to their advantage
-they get it into the C@nntry for 9c1. upon 55 lbs. instead of 40 lbs.

1479
49981. You think they should pay more ?-I think they should be made to keep to the 40 lbs. to Charles Draper,
C&ntinu#,
the bushel. 9th lll~>y 1asa •.
49982. Do you think the consumers get the benefit of that increa.se for the price ?-I think not ;
th~y sell them accordingly to retailers. '!'hey get Ss. 6d., and we get 6s. 6d.
49983. Do you think the Custom House officers do not take proper precautions ?-I think they
should not let 55 lbs. come in for 40 lbs.
49984; How do you know that-have you ever measured any parcels ?-I took one of the old boxes,
and the new one is an inch wider.
49985. But they only contain a bushel ?-But they contain 55lbs.
49986. Did you weigh it ?-Ithas been weighed.
49987. Will you confine yourself in evidence to what you know yourself ?-I know they are an inch
wider.
49988. But you have not weighed them ?-Pears go, I believe, up to 60 lbs.
49989. You say this fruit is sold here at Ss. 6d. a bushel-that is much dearer than yours-2s. more
-is that a better fruit ?-Not a bit l1etter.
49990. How is it then that people get more for an imported article than for the colonial ?-Because
they suppose the cases are so much larger.
49991. Then they are giving the community a larger quantity for the price ?-I think they get the
worth of it, ; those bushels are worth more than our bushels-they are so much larger than our bushels.
49992. You think the retail purchaser is buying a bushel and a half and only paying for a bushel?-
K ot to the extent of a bushel and a half; it is 25 per cent. I suppose them to be 55 lbs. and ours are 40 lbs.
49993. You say that is the cause of the price being Ss. 6d. instead of 6s. 6d. ?-Yes.
49994. Not because the quality of the fruit is better ?-Kot at all, they are larger cases.
49995. Do you think that your industry would be affected in the least-would you stop fruit, or recede
in anyway from the advance now going on in your place, if the duty were reduced ?-I am sure, if the duty were
reduced, I should give up and go to Tasmania to grow it, because they-have double the facilities for growing
it, I consider.
49996. If that happened, do you think the consumer here would get the advantage of the fruit
growing?-No. They would lose; they would get no competition.
49997. But you have had no competition since the duty was 9d.-can you give the Commission an
idea of the quantity ?-,-From Tasmania, in 1881, there were 26,251 bushels.
49998. What kind of fruit was that ?-It was chiefly apples, and pears, and plums.
49999. Not all apples ?-Not all apples. Very likely some small fruits were amongst them, but
that would be 2d. a pound.
50000. You can give no actual evidence as to the character of the fruit ?-No ; it was worth
£10,250.
50001. You cannot tell that they were all apples which come immediately into competition with you ?
-Just the same fruit as I grow.
50002. Then you grow more than apples ?-I grow more than apples. Just the very same fruit; I
grow them mixed.
50003. And you wish the Commission to understand that if they recommend any alteration in the
duty, your industry would suffer thereby so much that you would reduce the acreage you have got in-in
fact, you would go to Tasmania ?-Yes, it would pay me far better to go to Tasmania.
50004. You do not wish us to understand that you would go there if we recommend that?-I may
be too old to go myself, but I should recommend my sons to go ; I should stop here. It would take 1s. a
bushel off me all round.
50005. Were not you progressing very fairly under the old 5 per cent. duties ?-No.
50006. How many acres did you start with ?--Just one acre; a small garden.
50007. In ten years after that, how many acres had you ?-I suppose about eight.
50008. And the big increase began when the 9d. a bushel was put on?-Yes ; and not only that,
but it induced us to send to aU parts of the world to get varieties to compete with Tasmania. I
have between 600 and 700 varieties of apples ; we have been trying to cut them out.
50009. There is no duty upon fruit trees, is there ?-No, there is no duty upon fruit trees.
50010. Would it not be desirable for those who produce fruit trees to have a duty?-No; we only
introduce new varieties ; we soon make trees of them.
50011. Then your object in giving evidence before the Commission to-day is to insist upon the duty
being continued as it is?-Yes ; and the bushel being more uniform.
50012. And that it be seen to, in order that the imported article be allowed to pass at only 40 lbs. to
the bushel?-Y cs.
50013. Have you any other suggestion to make t.o the Commission ?-No.
50014. You have, in addition to the orchard, a large amount of country-what do you use it for?­
I am going on planting.
50015. You do not graze at all ?-Yes, I do upon the other part, but all that is fit I am going on
planting with.
50016. Are there uny other fruit growers in that neighbourhood beside yourself?-Yes, these last
two or three years they are planting every bit of land that is fit; it is just beginning to come into bearing.
They are planting in all directions. ·
50017. Do not you think that, by continuing this, you will be able sufficiently to supply the local
market,. even if there is no duty on ?-I consider it cost me 9d. a bushel to bring them to market.
50018. If you were in Tasmania, would it not cost you 9d. a bushel to bring them to market ?-,-I .
think they could bring it nearly as cheap as we can.
50019. That depends npon what part of Tasmania they are in?-Yes.
50020. How do you bring yours down ?-By carts. ,
50021. Not by the Lillydaie line ?-No, we are not near enough.
50022. And you say they can bring it from orchards in Tasmania, and ship it and bring 'it hundreds
of miles, and land it here ao~3 cheap as you can ?-I do not say quite that. -

Charles Dmper,
cantinued,.
9th May. 1883,
1480
50023. Do you employ your own horses and carts to come to market ?-Yes.
50024. And you have ampledemand for all you IJroduce ?-Yes, for all we can sell.
50025. Is Gs. Gel. the average price of apples in the market ?-No, it has only lately got up to that.
But I believe some growers near Melbourne were as low as ls. a bushel.
50026. This season ?-This season.
50027. What was the duty upon that article-was 9d. the duty upon an article worth ls.?-You see
they did not come in then, but now they are jnst beginning to ship from Tasmania, and we have been
introducing new late varieties to compete with them, and we have hardly got them into full swing.
50028. Has not this season been tmusually prolific in apples?-Yes, aJl over the country.
50029. And I suppose apples have been cheaper than ever they were before ?-It was about this
time in former years that we looked for them to get up to 10s.
50030. Then this is always a dear s.eason ?-It is always denr when the early fruits areo:ff and the.
Tasmanians do not get a chanee.
50031. Do you think, as a 'fruit grower, that you will ever be in a position to compete with Tasmania
or the adjoining colonies without this duty ?-I cannot ~ay we sh,'tlf be in that position, we are trying our
utmost to get in varieties to compete with them-more prolific varieties ~u1d better keepers. Tasmania is
later than this country, their ribston pippins are coming in now, and ours are all over these three weeks or
a month.
50032. Seeing that that particular fruit does not come into competition with you, do not you
think vou could let them in ?-I do not think so, for theirs comes in as our other fruit comes on.
• 50033. You would get the benefit of the longer season if you get in better varieties-if you had not
the duty on ?-We want a little more protection and you will see then. I do not think we could compete
without a duty.
50034. Have you anything else to sn,Y:?-There are other fruit-growers from Tyabb, and there they
. are planting a grent many. I am sorry Mr. Sheppard cli.cl not get' his notice soon enough to come in. I saw
his son this morning; he said that it costs him 1s. a bushel to bring it from Tyabb here.
50035. How much does it cost you ?_;_9cl. ; I could not possibly do it for less.
50036. You have 1,000 acres of land altogether:'-Yes.
50037. May I ask you what this 1,000 acres cost you-what is its value ?-I could not tell you that.
I have clone a deal of improvements on it.
50038. You have prospered pretty well on fruit growing, have not you ?-I have had to labour for
it anyhow.
50039. Of course, there is nothing to be had without labour, and the more credit to you if you laboured
successfully ; but 1,000 acres of land is worth some money, is it not ?-Yes ; but some of it is rangy-,.-it
is not fit for cultivation. Most of what we cultivate is in the :fiats.
50040. Is it fairto ask you what you value your farm at ?-[-'-:Vo answer.]
50041. Which is the best paying division of your industry, the fruit or the cabbage growing or the
grazing ?-I do not go into cabbage growing, except for cattle ; but fruit growing is what we get most
money for, and it is the most expense.
50042. One of the Commissioners, Mr. Bosisto, says you grow cabbages. I ask, which is the most
beneficial to you, the fruit or the crops or the grazing ?-The fruit is the most money ; but it is the most
outlay. There is a great outlay in getting an orchard up.
50043. We have this fact staring us in the face, that your industry has been a success, take it all
round ?-Yes.
50044. You have a 1,000 acres of land, and, notwithstanding you have laboured for it, it is yours, is
it not so ?-Yes. I suppose there are a few acres less than a thousand.
50045. Ry Mr. Lobb.-How do you utilize the whole of this land ?-It is all grazing, except tho
little field we grow for our own uses, and the rest is dairying ; we dairy upon the other part.
50046. How many cattle do you keep ?-We milk twenty cows beside the young ones.
50047. Are you in favour of the present dnty upon butter and produce ?-Yes, certainly.
50048. You consmne all the cereals you grow, that is oats and hay ?-Yes, we consume that.
50049. Do you grow wheat ?-No, nothing but hay and the feed oats ; we have to buy a great deal
of corn.
50050. How do oats grow in your neighbourhood ?-Well, bL1t we use them all, most of the ground
that now grows feed we intend to plant. Of eourse we grow crops between the trees while they are
young.
50051. If you heard a witness, on oath, make a statement that we cannot produce oats here for the
purpose of making oatmeal, do you believe it, as a practical farmer ?-I believe we can grow oats here as
well as in any country.
. 50052. By Jtfr . .&funro,-How many bushels of apples do you produce in a year ?-I never kept any
account of it. .
50053. Can you give us an approximate idea ?-I could not.
50054. Do you sell them in the Victoria market or the Western market ?-In the Victoria market.
50055. You do not sell to the middlemen ?-Some of them buv of us. Of course we have to sell
upon t~e wholesale system, having so many coming in. We sell tO' the importers who buy our fruit to
export 1t.
50056. You do not know the quantity of apples you sell every year ?-No, I do not know. I know
last year was very few indeed.
. 50057. By Mr. Lobb.-You could tell within 100 tons ?-I would not say at all the quantity, but
1t was very few last year.
50058. By the Chairman.-The principal evidence you wish to impress upon the Commission is the
continuance of the duty and the necessity that the imported article shall not measure more than 40lbs. to
the bushel ?-Yes, that is it.
The witness withdrew.

1481
John Rigby Non·is sworn and examined.
50059. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-I am a fruit grower.
50060. Where is your fruit garde)l situated ?-In Boroondara, on the White Horse road.
50061. How many acres have you under cultivation ?-Seven acres a.nd a half are in fruit.
50062. How long have you been growing fruit ?-Twenty-six years.
50063. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Draper ?-Yes.
50064. Do you agree with that evidence ?-Generally speaking, I do.
50065. In what way do you differ from him ?-With reference to his income ansmg from his
orchard produce, it is considerably augmented in his ease but not in mine, I have no other source of income
but my fruit alone.
50066. Of course you cannot swear how his income is augmented; give us a knowledge of your own
business if you desire to do so, and how the tariff affects you. You say you are solely indebted to your
orchard for your returns. You have no other indudtry?-No other inch1stry whatever.
50067. Do you wish that the system oftaxation that now exists should be altered in any way P-I
should like to see additional taxation, especially upon the large eases.
50068. Let me understand that before you go on. These large eases have no right to eome in here
you think. They must be measured as 40 lbs. to the bushel, shoulorris,
9th May 1883.
·i

1482
.tohn R. Norrls, was very scarce and difficult to obtain, that is at anything like remuneration. Now in order to establish
llt~i~';'i~s3 . homes where they could rear their families ami make a living they established these orchards.
50091. You did that without any duty to induce yo'tl ?-Yes, I did it for the express purpose of
making work for myself.
50092. H

1483
50i 17. Are yon in the habit of getting cases from Tasmania ?-vVe used to be the largest importers ~.r. a ..ronnsort,
but recently we have receded somewhat. . · · , · gtf"zJ;:' 1 1 ~si>il.
· 50118. Have you had any recently ?-We have, and I can tell you that the measure of a bushel
recognised in Hobart recently is 2 feet 4 inches long, H inches deep, and 7 inches across. The cubical
contents of that is recognised as a legal bushel.
50119. That is the size of case recognised there ?-Yes.
50120. Have you ever weighed a case of apples, say one of those cases ?-Yes, I have weighed
many of. them.
50121. What was the weight ?-They varied greatly.
50122. In accordance with the samples of fruit, perhaps ?-Yes, precisely :;o. If you take a mob
'codlin, a large soft apple, grown perhaps upon soft ground, it is naturally a large soft apple, the weight of
that would run about 38lbs. to 421bs. The Emperor Alexander, a large red apple, I have known as light
as 36lbs. The small hard French crab, grown on hn.rd ground, would run to 50lbs., and it would require
those various weights to fill a uniform case.
50123. Then the proper system of dealing with fruits would be to deal with measmement ?-Of
course it is.
50124. Then, if a case is no bigger than our case, the complaint of the fruit growers is met ?-Yes ;
we have no recognised case. The common ones of the gardeners here are orange cases, which the trade
greatly complain against, and will set their faces against for the future. The complaint is, that they use
the orange case for apples. The orange case has a partition in the middle, and, therefore, does not hold
a bushel. It is called a bushel by our gardeners. It may hold 40lbs. or 42lbs. according to the sort of fTuit ;
but it is not the legally recognised bushel of Tasmanin.. .
50125. Your statement to the Commission is, then, that it is unfair to recognise 40lbs. as a bushel ?
.-Yes, certainly.
· 50126. How would you remedy their complaint then ?-'I:hese gentlemen say of their cases, they
can put them into our cases, that is, they can take the orange case from Sydney and put it into a Tasmanian
apple case. ·
- 50127. By .l11r. Bosisto.-He did not say that. He saicl that he could put a VictoriM apple case
into a Tasmania,n apple case ?-Excuse me ; there is not such a thing as a Victorian apple cn.se.
50128. By the Chai1·man.-You say his statement is incorrect in that respect ?-I should like you
to notice why.
50129. If what the growers say is correct they are perfectly entitled to bring their complaint before
the Commission, because if the system of taxation in the country is to be conducted faidy, they have a
·:fight to complain if a fraud exists-you say it does not exist ?-I do say so.
50130. You say that there can be no uniform weight to a bushel at all?-Yes.
50UH. Could we determine upon a certain measure here as a bushel ?-Just as easy as Tasmania.
50132. And have a fixed measure ?-And have n. fixed measure.
50133. And we have no fixed measure ?-And we have no fixed measure. You have an
imperial measure here in the Custom House. That piled, you will find will just fill the Tasmanian
case.
50134. If the Commission visit your place, can we see one of those oases weighed ?-Yes.
50135. Have you any Tasmanian in stock now ?-No, a,nd are not likely to have for six weeks ;
but it must be evident to the Commission that weight cannot enter into the consideration of a
bushel.
. 50136. You import largely from Sydney P-Yes.
50137. Oranges particularly ?-Yes.
50138. Do our oranges in this country, to your knowledge, grow successfully ?-No, judging from
my own experience. I have tried them, and I have been long enough in the trade to know.
· 50139. Do the consumers prefer the Sydney to the locally grown orange ?-They prefer the Sydney
orange most decidedly, there is no compn.rison.
50140. Do you deal in the local orange at all-the Victorian grown ?-We have on one or two
o.ccasions, when they have been offered. On one occasion we had as many as 100 bushels, and that was
fthe only occasion when we had anything at all like a large parcel.
50141. If the duty were rem.oved from oranges, as you suggest, would it keep you from dealin"'
"in the Victorian article if it were produced ?-Not at nll.
"'
50142. Which orange 'sells the dearest-the Victorian or the Sydney ?-I think they are not in
competition. V\ 7 e never meet with Victorian oranges. I have met with them in the whole of my
experience abOLlt four times, that is extending over about twenty-eight J&'trs. They are not known in the
trade. A few years since a small parcel w11s sent. f'rom .vVangaratta, about lOO bushels, as I told you.
I have never heard, n.ltogether, of 500 bushels re~Lchmg thu; market.
. 50143. To whom do you vend your fruit-to the retail fruit dealers or to the wholesale consumer
in the way of fruit preserving ?-We sell largely to both. In July and August, when they are ripe we
sell largely to the preserving factories, to work up into marmalade, and then we export largely. '
50144. Is the system of duty an inconvenience to you in any way ?_:.Nothing beyond the simple
question of putting on so much more weight;. that must necessarily come out of the consumer.
50145. Have you any suggestion to make ?-I should like to say, while speakino- of apples and
'plums and so forth, produced here, that we are much larger exporters than importers. "'
. 50146. Of which ?-Of Victorian grown fruits. This year we have exported to Sytlney largely in
apples, and some plums. We h)1ve sent thousands of bushels of plums to Adelaide and to New ZealMd
about for three months, every boat carries as much as she can as deck cargo.
50147. Have you clone tlmt yourselves ?-We have done that ourselves.
50148. You speak of your own particular business llOWq-I speak of our own pmticular business
now.
' 50149. You have been dealing with the fruit growers of the country, and now you are much larger
exporters than importers?-Very much larger at the present time .
.50150. Call you tell us how many bushels of fruit you have exported ?-I should think about
8,000 to 10,000 cases this season.

,J. Q. Johnson,
' contlnued,
,9tb. May 1883,
1484
50151. A case holding a bushel or a reputed bushel ?-Cases and bushels. This is the first year we
have had cases made, on account of the complaint from New Zealand of the use of orange cases, for Victorian
,fruit, they are determined they will not have them, therefore this year we are having proper cases
made for apples.
50152. Cases to hold a bushel ?-Cases to hold a bushel.
50153. And you have exported from 8,000 to 10,000 bushels of different sorts of fruit grown here?
-Yes.
50154. I understood you to say that this is Victorian fruit absolutely ?-I say absolutely of Vic·
torian fruit, there is no hesitation about it.
150155. You do not get any drawback for it ?-No we have hardly come down to that.
150156. You are of opinion that we have now come, in the colony, to that point that wc produce
more fruit than we consume ?-No question about it.
50157. Then how do you account for such a large importation of fruit going on. Green fruit in 1881
gave £6,999 ?-That would chiefly arise from oranges. Last season we may have imported somewhere
about 6,000 cases of apples, but that was about all we did last year, and the remainder would be oranges.
Our own importation of oranges last year was about 37,000 cases, but we exported a great many of those
again.
50158. To where ?-·To Adelaide and New Zealand.
50159. They come from Sydney ?-Yes.
50160. Do you get a drawback for them ?-No, we ship t_hem in bond.
50161. Which part of the colony do you get your fruit from mostly?-:M:osHy around Melbourne,
within twelve or fourteen miles of Melbourne ; we have received from the neighbourhood of Geelong 'and
Sandhurst, the railway returns would show that many thousands of cases have been sent from Sandhurst
this year.
50162. And now we have reached this point that we can look forward to be continual exporters of
fruit ?-Yes, no doubt whatever.
50163. Have you anything else to say ?-Yes, I should like to suggest something about dates
and dried fruit. Our firm is considerably interested in them. We consider the duty very excessive-
2d. a lb.
50164. Is that an article that can be grown in the Colony ?-Certainly not.
50165. Has it been tried, do you know ?-I know of a date palm or two a foot or two high, but of ,
course they bear no fruit.
50166. It is not a success ?-It is not a success.
50167. Is it a fair article for revenue purposes ?-Certainly it is, but I think the duty is excessive,
and defeats its own object.
50168. In what way ?-Prior to the 2d. a lb. we used to have very large importations of mat elates,
their original cost being from £8 10s. to £9 in Bombay, upon which there is a duty of 2d. a lb .. Of course
that trade is completely settled. If you look through the returns of last year you will find that the revenue
from dates is exceedingly small.
50169. Then the valne of this article is about 1d. a lb.?-I think if the dnty was 1d. a lb. you
would have a much larger revenue. I have known myself Lhe time when I have purchased 35 tons of mat
dates, now I never buy so much as five tons.
50170. You think the article would come in if the duty were reduced ?-It would.
50171. The duty in Sydney is 1d. a lb.-Yes.
50172. And it would come in if that were the duty here ?-Yes, I think it is a fair article of
revenue.
50173. Would the revenue be largely increased ?-I am sure it would be largely increased.
5017·1. By the Hon. Mr. Lm·imez·.-Would there be any practical difficulty in levying a duty upon
green fmits by weight instead of by measure ?-I think there would he every difficulty. You must unpack
almost every case to know, because the weight depends upon the density of the apple.
1501715. Knowing the weight of the packages, could not you tare them ?-You could get at them,
hut it would not he an accurate knowledge.
50176. You are aware that there is the same variety in the weight of bushels as applied to grain
that there is as applied to fruit ?-I do not think so wide.
50177. And in ord.er to get over the anomalies there they went to the cental, and imposed the duty
upon the 100 lbs.?-There you have a uniform package, the sack, with a recognised tare to it. Now if the
cases are made of green timber, the weight would be very much more, though of the same thickness of
timber, than it would be if the timber had been drying for some time, and, if I mistake not, the question at
home upon the green fruits is not the question of weight, that is only a question that has crept in here with
11 view of passing off 40 lbs. as a bushel, that is all that it is, one of those little pious frauds that creep into
business, that is all.
50178. Could not you get ut the tare in the same way as you do with the dried fruits, like currants?
-I do not think you could, besides the value is not so much as to make it worth while. }

1485
50183. By JYir. Longmore.-Do you know what fruit is principally imported from Tasmania ?-At
the present time there is nothing coming, but at certain times of the year it does come. If you will
mention the time, I can tell you. In ,January certain jam fruits come across, such as raspberry and black
currants. They only "come when our crop .here is small.
50184. Are you aware, from your own knowledge, what fruit is grown principally in Tasmania?-
Yes-apples, pears, plums, and jam fruits, such as currants and raspberries ; those are the leading articles.
50185. Are you not aware that apples are the principal fruit grown?-Yes.
50186. By far the largest ?-Undoubtedly.
50187. You said just now that it did not matter about the duty upon apples, as we have not any
apples from Tasmania ?-Excuse me.
50188. A very small quantity ?-And I remarked, if you remember, that we had but a small portion,
and we commenced importing as soon as our own crop was exhausted.
50I89. \Ve have a return of imports here from Tasmania, the quantity iu 1881 was 26,251
bushels "?-Yes.
50190. Would not that be principally apples ?-Largely apples ; a great many of those would be
exported, or, in other words, tn:msshipped, but I look upon tlu1t as quite a small quantity; neady as many
as that quantity you mention weut into Sydney in fourteen clays this season. .J llSt two boats took over
23,000 cases, and that is what we received the whole year rouml.
50I91. I know that. I was across in Tasmania some time ago, and I was told then that every
orchard in Tasmania was purchased by Victorian merchants ?-Yes.
50192. Every orchard ?-Of course many a thing is said that is not true, and that is among them;
that is only trne relatively.
50193. Do you know whether apples are as cheap in Tasmania as here ?-They are worth rather
more money than they are here at the present time, and as to your remark about purchase by Victorians,
take my ow11 instance. My brother is a resident there. Suppose he bought-I could give 11ames of some
of the large growers, if necessary, that we bought from-Your remarks might apply that they were bought
by a Victorian, because we are o11e ill business, but the bulk of the goods go to Sydney.
50194. But I mean they were bought to come to Victoria ?-No, they were not bought to come to
Victoria ; the bulk go to Sydney.
50195. Was Victoria supplying itself with apples do you know when the Tariff was put on ?-No, it
was gragually growing towards it, that is all.
50196. Was it growi11g towf1rds it at the same rate that it has been since ?-Yes, I think so ; I
bought apples eight years ago at Is. 6d. a bushel here. The crops here are somewhat irregular. This
has been an exceptional year. Last year there was nothing approaching the same quantity, but we have a
right to expect that every year there >vill be a large increase.
, 50197. Do you feel that your interest as an importer is in any way antagonistic to the interest of the
growc1· ?-Not at all. I would as soon buy of the grower as I would import. It is all a question of getting
a trifle out of it.
50198. But do you think the growers do not get a higher figure in consequence of the tax ?-I am
perfectly sure they do not at this time of the year. They may just at the finish when they have little
remaining, but upon the whole they do not get any benefit from it.
50199. Do you think that as a whole the duty upon fruit has had any effect in steadying the market?
I think it had some time ago, but I do not think it does it now, we are past that point, but there was a time
when they had undoubtedly a benefit from it.
50200. If they have benefited from it, how could you advocaLe the taking of it away ?-I should
think they ought to be able to walk alone now.
50201. 'rhat is their business altogether?-Yes. Then I would put it another wf1y if you think well.
Is it quite fair for us to impose so heavily upon other people when we make u~e of their markets, for I can
prove easily the exportation this year is greatly in excess of the importation.
50202. Do the other people complain ?-They would like it off. I have had letters from Adelaide
and from Sydney to see whether we could not get the duty reduced, but have never taken the trouble,
because I know the question is simply this, the public have to pay it.
50203. Do you think that the Tariff upon green fruit has had any efl'ect in causin~~; m to be very
large producers ?-It may hf1ve had a small effect just at the beginning, but not .since. vVlten first it was
put on it may have induced some people to go on f1nd pl::mt orchf1rds, but I think that hf1s pf1~sed now.
50204. By tlze Clwirman.-Mr. Longmore asks, does not the grower get a higher price in consequence
of the duty ?-I think 11ot, at present.
50205. If the growers did get a higher price, who would pay for it ?-The public, of course.
50206. By 1lf1'. Longmore.-Upon what do you base your idea ?-Only upon my experie11ce, that is
all.
50207. That the consumer pays 11 higher price now than he did formerly ?---Only that whatever the
cost is we cannot afford to live at a loss. \'Ve have to put a little profit on.
50208. If some men f1re inclined to live at a loss-- ?-I mn not.
The w£tness withdrew.
J. G. JohllSon,
continued~
Dth May 1883,
:Fra11cis Boardrnan Clapp sworn ancl examined.
50209. By the Chairman.-\'Vhat are you ?-Managing Director of the Melbourne Tramway and
Omnibus Company.
50210. I understand you desire to some evidence to the Commission upon the question ofmaize
and oats. This matter was inquired into to some extent yestcmby and yotuwere not present. · "\Vill you be
kind enough to state what what you wish to convey to the Commission, in what way the Tariff upon these
articles affects your particular businees ?-\'Ye are very large consumers of maize, oats, and barley. We
are feeding between 1400 and 1500 horses df1ily, and tlming twelve months we use 573 tons 16 cwt. 3qrs.
25 lbs. of maize ; and oats, I 085 tons ; barley 1684 tons. The duty upon maize is 1 s. n ee11tal, and on
F. B. Clnpp,
9th :Ylny 1883.
.. J

F. B. Clapp,
contiin']Jed,
·9th May 1883.
1486
barley and oats, 2s. And maize, 1 may say, is very little grown in this colohy ; the land may be suitable,
but the climate does not seem to suit it. At any mte, very little is grown here, and it is not the same variety
as is grown in other colonies. It is very small and a hard flinty vat·iety, not considered so good for horse
feed as the large varieties, beiu,g much harder. With oats and barley, the duty is so heavy it almost amounts
to prohibition; we are not able to use New Zealand or Tasmanian oats in consequence of it. It amounts to
a very large bonus per acre to cultivate it. Taking the last statistics, it amounts, in the case of oats, to 21s.
per acre.
50211. The duty upon oats ?-The duty of so much per cental per acre grown of oats is 2ls., which
is a very large bonus, I consider. It wonl

-14:8:7
50238. By 11£1·. Longmore.~Do you know ifnnaize comes into competition with oats ?-I suppose
it does somewhat, in horse feed. It does not wholly take the place of oats.
50239. The policy of the country being protective, do not you think it is necessary t~ keep.the duty
upon an article that comes into competition with one that we grow ?-I u.m not advocatmg domg away
with 'the duty wholly. I say reduce it to a fair duty. I do not think it is a fai~· thir:g to give a bonus of
2ls. an acre for oats, for, in the first instance, the land did not cost above that in many 111stances .
.· 50240. You remember the price of oats here about two years ngo ?-I could not quote from memory
what they were, but I know they were mucblower than they are now.
50241. They we1·e from Hid. to 18cl. a bushel ?-Not in this market.
50242. Here in Melbourne ?-I buy as low as I can and I buy largely too, and we never got them
under 2s.
50243. Do you think it is possible for 9, man to live at l8c1. a bushel upon oats ?-At 18d.
, 50244. Yes, because I know there were many thousands of bushels-thousands of tons-sold at
Is. Gel. ?-ls. 6d. is very low, I think it is too low for the farmer.
. .. 50245. How do you prove that the farmer gains 2ls. per acre, with a duty of 2s. per bushel upon
his grain, when his whole produce will11ot come to more than 17s. ?-His whole produce per acre?
502,16. Yes ?-I urn speaking of this year.
. 50247. I am speaking of the prices the men have had to work for-you know a farmer might be
Jnclined to ask why you could not carry a passenger at lcl. ?-The present duty was not on, I think, in
those very low years.
50248. The Hon. M1·. Lor·imer.-lt began on the 27th of October 1880.
, ., . . 50249. By Mr. Longmore.-lt was then. Of course it would be very comfortable for the Omnibus
Company if they could get feed for nothing ?-T4e Omnibus Company do not want feed for nothing, they
are prepared to pay what is right and fair. . ·
· 50250. For next to nothing ?-No, we do not want feed for next to nothing, but we do not think we
are fairly handicapped when the Omnibus Company in Sydney pays 2s. 3d. for oats, while here we pay from
. 3s. to 3s. 4d. We do not see why it should be. -
50251. Are yon,differently placed from any other person in the colony ?-No, I do not ·think I am.
· 50252. Then why do you object to pay the same Customs duty as other people do ?-It interferes with
mv business.
" 50253. You want to get more profit ?-I want to get what is right ancl fair,- I think we are all interestecl
in giving this evidence. You might, if you liked, extend this evidence to feeding the poor with oatmeal.
50254. Why did not you object to the low price when 1hey were low ?-It was not my busi;tess.
. . 50255. Would you ch·ive the people from the country ?-No, I should like to see them come m, I should
like to see immigration. .
. . .'50256. Y om Omnib11s Company is a great consumer of oats, but you would like to get them for
nothing ?-No, not at all.
50257. When there is a scarcity you say you would get the benefit if the duty was taken off?­
; In. the years of scarcity we should, because they would come in from other colonies.
50258. Who would get the loss ? -,.Perhaps there would not be any loss. There might be a
scarcity in other colonies, but it would give us a chance to get our horse feed at a reasonable price.
50259. At next to nothing ?-No, not at next to nothing.
50260. And get splendid profits for your company ?-No, not for next to nothing. You may take
other countries that you are speaking of, and what would be ~fair price that the farmers could grow oats
for. In other countries they can grow them for much less than they aJ;e here, and they on and thrive,
and the countries do not go to the wall, and the people do not all leave.
50261. Do you find your company an unprofitable speculation, in consequence of the price of horsefeed_?-!
think last year it would have been very tmprofitable if we had not been able to import a cargo of
.gram from the East, to average the price.
50262. You complain of the loss of £6,000 or £7,000 a year, you complain it costs you that, and you
make a proposal that would cost you about £1,000. The question I put is this, does your company suffer
a loss now in running the 'buses ?-No.
_ . 50263. You do notrun at a loss ?-No, we try not to, but we should in many instances if we could
not get some outside cereal that would do for horsefeecl.
50264. But you would like the farmer to run his farm at a loss to suit you ?-No.
50265. B;lj the Chairman.-How many hands do you employ ?-Between 400 and 500.
50266. Then yours is really a large industry in that way?-Very.
50267·. And a large consumer of a marketable commodity that the farmer produces ?-Yes, in every
.year.
50268. By tlte Hon. jJfr. Lm·imer.-In the year when oats were so cheap, 1880, what was the cause
of that cheapness in the market ?-I suppose it was the supply, which was very great.
50269. Was it a large crop, or was it the lmge imports that did it?-The large crop.
50270. Then had the duty any effect whatsoever in making prices lower?-No, I cannot see that it
had at all. There were extmord.inary crops here-excessive-so large that we had the imports very small
that year.
50271. Then the duty was inoperative as far as that price was concerned ?-It was.
50272. Then, in your opinion, what is it that controls the market price here, is it the local produc­
·tions or the importations ?-The local production.
50273. By Mr. Longmore.-Were there any oats in from New Zealand that year?-Not many.
50274. That is not an answer to my question. Were there anv ?-I cannot say w-ithout looking at
the books ; very likely some came for oatmeal, for they prefer them fo~ that.
· 50275. I may mention that in that year there came in oats to the value of £16,000 from New
''Zealand ?-Yes, I presume for oatmeal. I do not think our company used a New Zealand oat that year;
it was very rough upon the New Zea,land brmers to bring them here ~nd sell them at those prices,
'l'he witness withdre~~;.
F. B. C!.~pp,
continued,
9tlllL~y 1883.

ll, w. Bartmm,
9th May 1883,
1488
Haworth William Bartram sworn and examined.
50276. By tlw Chairman.-You are of the firm of Bartram and Son ?-Yes.
50277. What are you ?-Produce merchant.
50278. Where is your place of business ?-8 Queen street.
50279. How long hn;ve you been in business as a produce merchant ?-Twelve years.
50280. Did the tariff influence you in starting your business in any way ?-Not in the least
50281. What is the nature of the evidence you desire to submit to the Commission in reference to
the tariff-in what way does it affect your business?-We deal chiefly in butter and cheese, and those articles
are now exported to so large an extent that there is no necessity, I think, for any duty ·
50282. The duty upon butter is 2cl. lb., and upon cheese 2d. a lb.?-Yes.
50283. Then I understand you to say that the duty of 2c1. a lb. upon butter and cheese is prejudicial
to your business ?-I do not see that it affects it but very slightly, it is troublesome at times when the
market is scarce, and we have to operate somewhat in bond, in the case of repacking, and in that way.
Bnt as a rule, in fact altogether, it is an export business, not an import business.
5028,1. Then it is immaterial to you whether it continues or not ?-Except that at times there may
have been a little over exportation and the consumer may have to pay for it inwards at the end of the
season.
50285. You see it would be very clifficult for the legislature to make a law here that shall have a
certain operation in times of plenty and an opposite effect in times of scarcity. Does it affect you ?-It
may occasionally, but not much.
50286. As a general rule it does not '?-As a general rule it does not, the exports are so large.
50287. We are producing so much that there is no necessity for it ?- Just so. Since 1878 we have
exported over 1,000,000 lbs. weight of cheese per annum on the average.
50288. And how much butter ·?-2,000,000 lbs. of butter in 1881.
50289. Are you still exporting ?-Yes, very largely. I have not got the amounts made for tllis
year, but they are approximating to those of last year-in cheese at any rate.
50290. How long is it since we became importers, is it since you were in the business ?-I have
a table here copied from the "Australasian Trade Review"- [producing the same].
50291. Can you give evidence from your own experience as a produce merchant. When did you -
begin to export '?-Largely do you mean?
50292. Yes ?-In 1878, particularly in cheese.
5029 3. Has your exportation been increasing since then ?- Y os.
50294. Or has it been standing still ?-We have been increasing.
50295. You have had no year of scarcity since 1878 ?-Not a year of scarcity, but last year, we
exported a little too much.
50296. As a matter of fact butter and cheese were both very high in price, and have been high in
price for two or three years past ?-Yes.
50297. And still your exportation goes on?-Yes, as trade has grown from the colonies.
50298. Where do you export to mostly ?-Nearly all the colonies buy from here, Queensland and
South Australia, and Western Australia and Sydney ; there is a large export trade growing up now.
50299. How comes it now that there is any importation at; all, it is very small; butter gave us £19
in the way of duty in 1881, and cheese £75. What class of article would that be, English Stilton, and
other famous cheeses ?-A little of that, chiefly that, I should say.
50300. The butter was a mere bagatelle ?-Yes.
50301. You think the duty is unnecessary, and does not effect your business ?-Entirely unnecessary.
50302. Do you deal in bacon ?-Yes.
50303. Does the same evidence apply to bacon ?-It does in one sense, and still there is a duty.
50304. How is that ?-There is a large quantity of bacon made now over ancl above the require·
ments here, and it is exported, and still there is the duty.
50305. In 1881 the duty collected upon bacon was £24, so not much comes in ?-No, it is an
export thing.
50306. Is there anything else you wish to submit to the Commission ?-No, but I may mention that
I am not a manufacturer.
There are two gentlemen here who make hams and bacon.
The witness withdrew.
James C. Hutton sworn and examined.
J. c.llutton, 50307. By Mr. M-irams.-What are you ?-Ham o.nd bacon curer, and butter and cheese merchant.
9thlliaylSSa. 50308. The previous witness spoke of butter, you heard his evidence, have you anything material
to add to it ?-In reference to the duties in the colonies, I may state, that all the colonies have about the
same duty, that is 2d. on bacon, 2d. on butter, and 2d. on cheese, vvith the exception of Sydney, and the
duty on butter in Sydney is not in operation, and in South Australia.
50309. Then do the duties in the other colonies affect you ?-It curtails our trade a little, but not
much.
50310. The duties in other colonies ?-Yes.
50311. But we cannot affect them unless we can get some sort of reciprocity ; there is no duty upon
butter in New Zealand, or in South Australia ?-No, the duties here have had a good effect upon our
industries in Victoria.
50312. Have you reached the stage when you can do without them ?-I would not like to say that
exactly, hut I may say that the influences of climate are in our favour; we have a fine climate for ham and
bacon curing, and butter and cheese making, which gives 11s a great advantage over many of the other
colonies, especially the northern ones. The produce of Victoria in that line is so very much superior to
anything the other colonies produce, that it fetches a higher price.
50313, With all those advantages, and seeing you are so firmly established, would it injure your
business if the duties were removed ?-If we had the same faeilities in the other colonies. You must
consider this matter in connection with our business, as a, question of seasons very often.

1489
.'i0314. Do you export to Sydney?--No.
50315. It doos not affect you there ?-No.
50316. Do yon export to South Australia ?-Yes.
50317. It is free in South Australia ?-Butter is free.
50318. And there is 2d. a pound on the other things~cheese, bacon, and hmn?-Yes ..
50!319 .. And it is the same in New South Wales as it is here?-The smne in :N"ew South Wales.
50320. Do yon say you would like to ml1ke the reduction of the duties upon these articles here a
rel1sou for getting the other colonies to reduce in the same Wl1y?-Yes.
5032!. Suppose we cannot do that ?-Then let the duties reml1in as they are.
50322. Since you are exporting, having reached that stage, what benefit are the import duties to
yon ?-In a glut in some of the other colonies they might flood our mnrkets with stuff, and interfere with
our manufacturing operations in a given season ; for instance, last year there was a great scarcity of pigs
in Victoria, and bacon was pretty dear, and it was remark~bly cheap in New Zealand, and we were
protected f!·om a glut in New Zealand by the duty.
50323. Did you import the pigs and make them into bacon here?-Not from New Zealand.
50324. 1 l{ ould it not have a good effect to have no duty, and to import from New Zealand in a scarce
season here ?-:N" ot on me as a manufacturer ; I mn not a commission merchant.
50325. Have you anything else to say?-In reference to the dnty on pigs, during the winter months
we are eompelled to get large supplies of mnize feed from the Twofold Bay district. In fact the supply of
pigs in Victoria is so very small that that has been onr dilJiculty. There is a 2s. duty upon those pigs; it
would be to the interest of our trade, I think, if the duty was removed, seeing we export more bacon than
ive get pigs, and it is a question ofimpossibility to get dmwback for bacon upon imported pigs.
50326. The drawback wonlcl not be much ?-Yes, indeed it would; if you get 200 sides a week
there is £10 a week, and that is a pretty fair income.
50327. Have you anything further to add ?-Nothing further.
50328. Do you agree with the previous witness upon the main points he put forward ?-Yes.
50329. By the 0/w·irman.-Of course the pigs are your raw material ?-Yes.
50330. Y on wnnt yom raw material free ?-Yes, we do.
50331. Is not this raw material the article which many farmers in this country grow-do not they
grow pigs ?-Decidedly. ·
50332. Do not you think they should have tl1esume assist..'l.ncefrom the State that you have yourself?­
Yes, clecidedly; but I wish to point ont that these pigs come in dnring the winter months when there is
no supply of pigs, compamtivoly speaking, in Victoria; aml it is a fact that most of this stuff cmed we export
to Queensland. Most of the that we buy here, during those seasons, are sent to Queensland and
other places.
50333. By ltf;·. Mirams.-Does the 2s .. npon pigs have the effect o£ enhancing the price of pigs in
this colony ?-Yes, and it effects the supply considerably.
50334, So it benefits the farmer to the extent of the duty ?-I cannot see that it does, for he has no
pigs to sell.
50:135. But I asked you whether the farmer, when he has pigs to sell, gets a higher price in con~
sequence of the duty ?-No, I do not think it affects him a farthing.
50336. Would it affect the market here when there is a good supply of Victorian pig a?-Yes, I
believe it would then.
50337. To that extent then it wonlcl be an assistance to 1:he farmers to leave it as it is ?-Yes, to
that extent it would.
The ~vitness w1:tlldrew.
Gilman Goodrich Pierce sworn and examined.
50338. By tlte Cl!a;:rman.-What are you ?-I urn now manager of a cheese factory.
50339. Do you wish to give evidence upon the question of cheese ?-Yes, cheese exclusively.
50340. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesRes in relation to the duty upoh cheese. Tile
first witness was of opinion, I think, that the duty should be taken off ?-My opinion is that it should not
be meddled with at all. It suits me very well as it is in every respect. I wonlcl dislike to see it tampered
with in any respect whatever. I am decidedly of that opinion.
50341. That we ought to let it alone '?-Let it alone. Things go very well, things have settled into
a groove, things are going on well under the present tariff, I think it suits all interests, ami I would not like
them disturbed.
50342. Is your factory turning out much cheese ?-I am ma.nager of four of five factories; this year
1\Te tumed ont 90 tons.
50343. From your factories ?-Yes, it has been a late summer season, not a long season, I have often
turned out 170 tons in the year. ·
50344. This seuson has not been such a good one ?-Not so long, it is very short.
50345. Have the cows c1Toppecl off milking more qnic;kly this season ?-Very quick, it was a short
and quick run.
50346. Do you exportthe cheese principally ?-We export the majority of it. We sell a good deal
here, bnt we export, I think, the largest part.
50347. Since you sell most of your cheese abroad, how does the duty remaining on give you :>"ny
assistance in your industry ?-In answering that question, I might st1tte that had not you adopted the
protective system here, I should not have had any cheese to export at all. I should not have been iu the
business, and I do not think the time has yet come to take it off. .
50348. I am only trying to get at your reason for your opinion. 'You are a practical man, and we
expect practical men when they give practical opinions of that sort to give reasons for them ?-I am a conservative
enough not to like to see it disturbed. There may be a lot of theory as to how it would work, bnt
I do not like to see it disturbed. That is all.
50349. Have you anything further to say ?-That is all, I think.
50350. If this duty were removecl to-morrow, would it affect, in your opinion, yom business in the
slightest degree ?-I think New Zealand would flood us with cheese. It might uot be just now 7
hut taking
it year by year it would.
J. C. F!utton,
continued,
9th lllay 1883.
0~ G. Pierce,
9th May 1883,

G. G. Pierce,
ccnU"nued.
9tJi JIIay 1883.
1490
50351. What is the price of cheese in New Zealand now ?-I do not know.
50352. What is it generally ?-I think about 6c1., but I cannot say positively.
50353. What is the price of the same class of cheese here ?-7d. and Sd. I think.
50354. We are selling the same kind of cheese here at 7!d. as they sell in New Zealand at 6d. ?­
That is an approximation.
50355. And you think if the clut.y were removed the New Zealand cheese would come here and
compete with you ?--I think it would, I do not say just now.
50356. But you have not the slightest fear that you could keep all competitors out of the market if
yon tried, you know your business ?-I think it would interfere very much with my business.
50357. By .Mr. .iJilirams.-Wbere is the New Zealand cheese sent to now ?-I think they use it all
themselves now. I do not think they export much.
50358. To which colonies do you export ?-To Queensland and South Australia.
'Tlte ~m:tness withdrew.
T. Brenuon.
9Lll May 1883.
Thomas Brennan sworn and examined.
5035!). By Jlf?·, jl{irams.-Whom do you represent ?-Watson and Paterson, bacon and ham
curers.
50360. Do you deal in butter and cheese ?-Yes, largely.
. 50361. Do you support the evidence of the previous witnesses ?-Yes ; I speak with the experience
of over twenty ymtrs in this colony. If the import duty upon bacon and hams be removed, I believe it
would have the effect of glutting our market with American bacon, or the very lowest quality of English
bacon ; in fact, it was the import duty that nursed the industry to maturity, and we have completely cut
out the importation of foreign bacon.
50362. Aml now you are doing an export trade ?-And now we are doing an export trade. All
we want is a reciprocity with the other colonies.
50363. To get them to take off their duties ?-Yes.
50364. Make nse of our present position ?-Protect us from foreign countries, and have reciprocity
with the other colonies. Our climate is much more suitable for making bacon tlum Queensland, and it
looks so absurd to h1~ve an import duty upon an article from a sister colony that they cannot make themselves.
Protect us from the outside world.
50365. By the Cloavrman.-Do yon think, having reached the age of maturity as you say, that it
is necessary to nurse you further?-We want to be protected even in maturity against the invasion of
outsiders.
50366. Then you have not reached maturity yet ?-Yes, perfect matnrity.
50367. Having reached that stage of exporting an article, what reason have you for asking a continuance
of the duty ?-Because you would he competed with by a man in New York, who sends bacon to
Liverpool, has it packed there with an Irish packer's name, and sent out here as an Irish article. I sny
that the duty is necessary in my opinion.
50368. You do not show that. I am anxious to get fair evidence. You do not show the necessity
of the duty when the :fact remains that you are a large exporter of the article. You fear a thing that may
take place now just as well with the duty on as with the duty off '/-Remove the duty, and we would not
be large exporters. Other countries will supply that which we are well able to supply.
5036\:l. Then, if the duty were off, you say this morning upon oath, that your industry would suffer
-you would lose your export trade at once ?-·I say, from an experience of thirty years in the provision
trade in Ireland and here, remove the clnty and you open your ports to every needy trader that would
bypothecate his goods and flood the market. I have seen lOO and 200 tons of goods (they send tl;w rubbish
of the London markets here) sent out and sold, no matter what it fetched.
50370. Suppose the duty were lowered to a penny a pound, would not that do ?-It would be a
penny a pound inducement to people in London to send their goods here.
50371. Then 2d. has :fixed the exact happy medium which keeps the London article out '?-We c1o
not wish to touch the law of the country which is protective, and another thing, I do not see that 2s. a
head upon pigs eoming here does the least to encourage the growth of pigs in the colony, for we cannot get
a supply; ¥Yhen there are not sufficient pigs here, then we have to purchase in other colonies. .
50372. If the farmers say that the 2s. a head encourages the growth of the article, what would you
say then ?-They might speak very truthfully from their own standpoint not from ours.
50373. By 111-r. Longliwre.-When there is 2d. a lb. duty upon the article we export, does it do any
harm to have that upon the Statute Book ?-No, not to our iuclustrv, it is beneficial to it in fact. I
remember twenty years ago going rouml to sell bacon, and they would i10t look upon it because it had not
" Sin clair" or "Coey" or "Varey,'' &c., upon its back. I wore my shoes and broke my health trying to introduce
this industry.
50374. Have you learned iu your business, a,t any time, that merchants trying to establish a trade
and to injure the industries of r" country, will submit to a loss upon an article for a long time so as to ruin
the producer ?-They clicl do it for many years till they were tired of it. For many years wholesale
merchants paid more for tl1e imported article than they could purchase the colonial for, thereby evidencing
their sympathy with and their preference for the imported article.
50375. Do you think 2d. a lb. would prevent the like of that ?-Of course it would, it is a handicap
to keep them out. It keeps away unfair competiton. You know, as well as I do, that at home there are
needy men with good:3 in their warehouses, they send them out here to get money in a,dvance to keep the
bailiff from the door. They do not care wlwt it sells for in time, but it goes.
50376. Then from your evidence I gather tbat the 2d. a lb. upon the article now upon the Statute
Book does not injure anybody ?-·I do not think so. ,
50377. And that it has the effect of keeping out these importations that would place us eventually
in the hands of the importers ?-Yes, and it has created a market for our pigs. Hundreds of thousands a
year are paid to the fhrmers for the pigs thnt ent up the debris of the kitchen and the farm-house, and that
cost them nothing.
The ~oitness witlld1·ew.

1491
Henry Berry sworn and examineti.
50378. B:y JYh. 1rfirams.-vYhat are you ?-Salt merchant and salt manufu.cturer.
50379. How long have you been a salt manufacturer ?--Since 1872.
50380. Where is your factory situated ?-Lake Cundare.
50381. How many hands are you employing at your factory ?-Directly and indirectly from :fifty to
sixty, perhaps not quite s:::J nmny now we are not so busy.
50382. That is your usual number, :fifty to sixty ?-I think so, it has been, but I would say it is
something less now.
50383. How many do you employ in your business as a salt merchant ?-I tlo not know, I could not
say. In Melbourne alone we have a dozen, I think.
50384. How does the duty upon salt affect you ?-It induced me to start this industry.
50385. vYonld any reduction of the duty act against your interest as a manufacturer ?-I would not
atl vocate by any meuns, as a salt manufacturer, that the duty Le taken off in my own interest, but I would
say tllis, that there are so many who are prejudiced against a colonial article tha,t I would not oppose a
reduction in the interests of the cnrers. O:f course, I am not studying my own interests, I know that, in
saying so, bnt, if you wish for an explanation, I can explain it to you by showing you various samples of
salt, and sbo~wing you the reason.
50386. You would not oppose a reduction in the interests of the curers ?--If it could be shown they
suffer as they say they do. They will not use colonial salt, however well manufactured. .
50387. They prefer the imported ?-They prefer the imported, particularly the Black Horse brand.
Would you like to see samples of the various sorts which I have here? Yes, the best sort that we get, and I
think that is manufttctnred in the world, is manufactured fl·om this basis-[p;·od1&cing a sample of ctear ~ohite
1'ock satt]. It is found in the earth in Worcestershire, the only place where it is found.
50388. By tl~e Cltairman.-What. do you call it ?-Rock salt. It is found hundreds of feet below
the surface of the ground.
50389. By J£1· •. llfimms.-Roek salt does no~ pay any duty ?-No. This is the other article that is
found in Cheshire-[ Produciug a sample. J The Cheshire sa~t is nmnufacturecl from this. It is a much
inferior article, and the salt is never so good. The experience of bacon and meat curers genera1ly is that the
salt that is made in vYorcestershire is much more valuable for curing. In making salt there is much delay
and increasing expense. .All En:.slish salt is manufactured from one sort or other of rock salt being dissolved
in water an•l evaporated in pans; they are continually letting brine run into the pans ; the water is pumped
up out of the earth in a clear state and evaporated, and they have simply to take the salt out of the pans,
that, is the case both in Worcestershire and Cheshire. The difference which I :find in the colony is this.
Our colonial salt contains very many impmities, and we have to go through a chemical process, and it takes
a long lime, and it is costly, so that having laid out, as I have done, some £8,000 or £10,000 on thisindnstry,
I fail to find the public appreciate it as I thii1k they ought to do. I will show you the article I make.
Though I have been led to speak as I did just now, I have very little feeling in the matter; as the_ curers will
not use colonial salt, I will not oppose taking off the duty. This is the sort that I mannfacture-LpToducing
a sample ]-and that-[pTOducing another sample ]-is the celebrated Rlack Horse brand, which is the
favorit.e now throughout the whole world; and even in France, where the duty is very high, they will have
this salt.
50390. By tl1e Clwi1·man.-Is there any property in the one as compared with the other to
distinguish it ?-Yes, I think the one is about as chemically pure as the other, though there is a difference
in the constituent parts.
50391. There is a greater preserving power in the one than in the other?-Yes, the bacon makers
say so, but the butter people like my salt. .
50392. One is a whiter salt than the other ?-Yes, there is no use trying to compete with it, we
cannot do it. Even the Liverpool salt makers, who turn out much more salt than Corbett does (turning
out over 6,000 tons a week), cannot compete with Corbel.t in colour or purity.
50393. If the duty were taken off you would turu yonr a&tention to the imported article ?-Yes. I
have no doubt I should make as much money at it; you will see at once t.lutt from the nature Of the two
classes or basis that competition is impossible. This man (John Corbett, Esq., M.P .) happened to pnrchnse
this large tract of country in >;v orcestershire, where there was this large bed of rock salt, which had no
colouration and no impurities.
50394. If this duty were removed, would it h~tYe the effect of closing your factory?-Yes, I think so,
decidedly.
50395. Your factory would be closed then on the one haml, and the duty wou1d be lost on the other
hand ?-I have often been to the Commissione1· of Customs in the interes~s of my customers, because it has
been made capital against me by opposition men, that having a factory it was to my interest to have the
duty on against the interest of the men I was selling to, and I have gone to }tsk for the duty to be removed,
and the answer was, "we want a revenue."
5039G. Suppose the duty was lowere(l to !Os. a ton, would that shut up your factory ?-I think
possibly it might.
50397. If the duty were reduced to 10s. and the import was no larger we should lose half the
revenue ?-:My brother reminds me that for some kinds it might stop our work. Will you kindly put the
question again, I am a little deaf.
50398. Suppose the duty were lowered to 10s. instead of 20s. a ton, wouhl it have the effect of
closing yom fn,ctory ?-Yes, it would for best kinds.
50399. Is the most of tl1e trade in best kinds ?-In manufacturing my salt it unfortunately happens
that we cannot do it without having a lot of second-class salt with it, which we have to take out either at
the same time or afterwards upon the same day, and this salt is unsaleable here. .At home they have
nothing of this, they merely let the water in at one end, and evaporate it, and tlLke out the salt at the
other.
50400. What proportion of the salt u~ed in the colony do you manufacture at Lake Cundare ·?-I
suppose one-fifth.
50d.Ol. Not more than that ?-No, certainly not more.
50402. Are there other An.H nJfllfUffLctnrers in the cn+ony '?-Th0re lmye been seven.tl, fl.nd they havE~
ne:lJrl;Y l'lll f.mme to grioe,
Henry Berry,
9th J;Iay 1883,

HenryBeny,
continued.
9th :May 1883.
1492
50103. The dut;y last year was £7,498, that is equivalent to 7,498 tons. Have you anything further
to say ?-I think I may say, perhaps, the same as the gentlemen som 25s. to
30s., leaving a little variation, according. to circumstances. .
50"115. Would 25s. be it ?-From 25s. to 30s. is perfectly safe for the W orcestershiro fine salt.
Coarse comes much cheaper.
50416. What is the freight and charges for baggiHg and shipping before it is lauded here ?;_The
sacks are 7~cl. each, that we p!ty a,t home now, and 4~d. for small bags, lcwt. bags; the freight is £1
to 25s.
50417. Then do not you think that that immense freightage is sufficient protection and encouragement
to the salt manufacturer here?-You must remember that my factory is l 00 miles up the country, and
to bring the salt down to Me1bourne is a very expensive item. It costs me just ns much to carry it that
hundred miles as it does to bring it out from Eug·land.
50418. But. does not it cost the English manufacturer as much to bring it to the port of shipment
as it costs you ?-No; where I get mine shipped from now, it only costs him a few shillings to deliver it:
it used to cost more, but lately there are very large docks opened up at Sharpness, and this is in elose
proximity to John Corbett's place. He is a Member of Parliament; he owns this immense clock in
conjunction with one or two others, and they have built a very fine place. The ships load there almost
close to the works, and we get the salt pnt on board at a cheaper rate than formerly.
50419. J)ut you cannot say your freight from yonr factory is anything like 25s. a ton ?-The freight
from my factory does not cost me a.nything less at the present time than 20s. exactly,
50±20. You pay 20s. a ton ?-Yes, to bring it from my factory to Melbourne.
50421. Do not you sell a lot to go to the interior of the country ?-I sell some at Ballarat and other
places, but it has to go away round via Geelong, after being carted eleven miles across the country in an
opposite direction from the place where I want it to go to.
50422. At all events, you can see yourself that th6 duty is nearly equivalent to cent. per cent. upon
the value of the article in the old country ?-I see that. ·
50423. I must say that you are giving your evidence remarkably fairly, to my mind. Now, can you
say if it be reduced 10s., it would be a large benefit to the curers and very little injmy to you ?-I feel this
(you have been pleased to compliment me very highly in saying that I gave my evidence fairly, I desire
to give it as fairly as I can) that the curers, being prejnclieed, will not use colonial salt to cure their meat
as a rule.
50424. Is it not fair also to say this, that it is not a prejudice, because, according to your evidence,
you admit that this salt from Worcestershire is so immensely superior to yours ?-I do not say it is so
immensely superior to mine, because I say, as a matter of fact, there is very little difference in it chemically;
and it is good enough for butter, and it pleases some persons better, and some customers like it better.
However, the Black Horse brand has a name all over the world, and it has a very firm hold upon the people
here ; but the name has ~omething to do with it ; ancl it is thought a better salt. I think we shall never
be able in Victoria to make a salt like what that man makes from that article-[pointing to the clear crystal
w!tite 1·ock salt].
50425. By .Llfr. Mirams.-1Inless we find a deposit like his?-Yes; but ours is made from the water
of the lakes, which is very impure, or from sea water, which contains twelve or thirteen other chemicals
besides pure salt.
50426. By tile Clwinnan.-Do all our lake~ contain salt similar in quality ?-The lake I !Lm on is
about the best I know of, but some are so impure that I could not possibly make salt from the water.
I could get any amount of Glauber's salt and Epsom salts, aml various preparations of magnesia. You
must thoroughly bear in mind I am not advocating taking off the duty Oit salt, but I say I am in conscience
bound to speak of things as I find them.
50,!27. By .1111·. Longm01·e.-Would not you think that salt should natnrallv bear its share of the
expenses of the country the same as other articles ?-I have not the slightest objection to that,
50428. It is a legitimate object for Customs dnty?-Yes, I think so ; I did not think so till it was
pointed out to me l'y Mr. Francis, when I waited upon him on one occasion, that takin"' it at a duty of £1
0
a ton, it would not make more than 1s. a tierce upon beef,

]493
50429. That being the case, and your industry employing 50 men, Jo not you think it would be wise
to continue the duty ?-I beg pardon ; I woultl not like it to go forth that I say I am uow employing 50 men,
for I am not. vVe are now very slack. In times past we have employed as nmny as 70.
50430. You employ a certain numbet• of hands making salt. _ Do not you think it would be wise to
continue the duty to see if the prejudice again8t the colonial article will not pass away ?-I can scarcely
express an opinion about it. I have said about all I can say about it.
50431. At all events it would be prejudicial to your factory if it were reduced to 10s. ?-Yes, it
would, it would be so much out of my pocket.
The witness withdrew.
Adjo~t?'ned
to to-1JW?'Tow, cot Two o'clock.
Henry 'Berry.
eonthwed.
9th May 1883,
JAJYIES MIRAJIIS,
W. M. Cook, Esq.,
J. A. Woodward, Esq.,
W. F. Walker, Esq., M.L.A.,
E. L. Zox, Esq., M.L.A.,
THUHSDA Y, lOTH MAY, 1883.
Present:
Esq., l\

R S. Grahn.mr
Esq., J.P.,
COJltinued.
12th May 1883,
1494
50452. Have you secured a better price for your oats since the last alteration in the tariff?-Yes.
50453. To what extent ?-""\:Ve used to sell as low as 2s. Gel. a bushel some seasons.
50454. What do they range at now ?-Three shillings, on an average.
50455. Does that represent the amount of the increase in the duty, the additional Gel. a bushel ?-It
assists materially.
5045G. The increase of duty was from Is. to 2s. a centil, was it not ?-Yes.
50457. Th>tt is about equal to 5d. a bushel on oats ?-Yes.
50458. Are we producing in the colony nearly a sufficient supply of oats to meet our own demand?­
I believe so, we are not far off it at any rat~.
50458. It has not reached the stage at which we export it, has it ?-.Ko, not quite.
50460. In a year or two, when the supply has slightly increased and it becomes an exportable
commodity, will the duty then have any effect upon the price you will receive for it ?-No doubt, if we had
an overpl{~s of it, but we have not that at the present time, we should have to send it elsewhere.
50461. Would not the price you obtain fot• that portion you export govern the price of the whole
p1·ocluction ?-It may do to a certain extent. ·
504cG 2. The same as it does with when t at the present time ? -Yes.
50463. Under those circumstances the duty would not be of any advantage t.o you '1--N o.
50464. This neighbourlwod is suitable for the growth of oats, is it not ?-Yes.
5046ti. About the most suitable in the colony ?-Yes, it is a moist climate.
5046 G. 'V e have heard a great deal about the quality of oats, the q

1495
50498. In what way ?-Something similar to the other cereals.
50499. But do not you realize the fact that it is in exactly the opposite position to all those other
cereals. vYe have an enormous quantity of wheat, more than we want to use, which we 'Yant to export,
and none of the other cereals have as yet reached that point at all ?-So far as Victoria is concerned, I ilo
not think we have an abuncbnce of it. vVe im1'ort it from other districts.
50500. Have no1; t1bundance of what ?-Wheat.
50501. Yes, we have. None comes at all in except a little for seed, and so on, but we have 3,000,000
bushels to export ?-I did not know tlmt. I have not paid much attention to it, not growing it.
50502. As a matter of fact the price of wheat is here mled by the price growers get outside the
colony ?-I do not pay much attention to that, not growing wheat.
50503. Personally you do not object to the removal of the duty upon wheat?-No.
50504. Might the duty upon potatoes be removed?-I clo not think so, New Zealand could swamp us
in that as well as in the grains.
50505. Have you any alteration in the tariff to propose at all ?-I clo not think I have any alteration
worth mentioning.
50506. There has been a great deal of evidence given to the Commission, and a great deal said in
the press in relation to the question of malting in bond. Are you, as a grower of barley, opposed to that
proposal or in favour of it ?-I am opposed to it.
50507. Will you state to the Commission upon what ground ?-We might as well allow the English
barley to come in ns the malting in bond. I fail to see the clifterence that it would mnke.
50508. Are you under the impression that the proposal to allow Melbourne maltsters to malt in bond
is for the purpose of disposing of the malt after it is made in the colony of Victoria ?-As long as it is
disposed of in the colony.
50509. But are you under the impression that the proposal to nllow Melbourne maltsters to malt in
bond is for the purpose of disposing of the malt after it is made in the colony of Victoria ?-Yes.
50510. It could not he possibly clone without paying the duty. The proposal to allow malting in
bond is simply a proposal to allow the maltsters to h1ke in barley, say from New Zealand, malt it in bond,
and export it again to either Sydney or Adelaide in the shape of malt, so as to be enabled to compete in
the Sydney or Adelaide markets with the New Zealand maltsters. If a :Melbourne maltster attempted to
put that malt on to the Melbourne market, and dispose of it in Victoria, made from foreign barley, before be
could do that he would have to pay the duty just as if he had paid the duty before he turned it into malt?­
Of course that materially alters the case. Of course I should have no objection to that arrangement.
50511. By M;r. ~~olntyre.-How long have you been here ?-Twenty-five years.
50512. What area of land had you first when yon started here ?-Five hundred acres.
50513. You have steadily increasecl tl~at to 1,600 acres ?-Yes.
50514. What do you value yom land at ?-It is bard to say. Land is going up at such a rapid rate
that we can hardly form an idea.
50515. At the present price ?-Some of it is worth a great deal more than the other.
50516. I am speaking about your own ?-Even my own is so widely scattered.
50517. What would he the average of it ?-Some of it is worth, at the present prices, about
£30 an acre, other about £5.
50518. Then would it be too much to average it at £12 an acre ?-No, it is not. I would not let
it go for that. ·
50519. You have built that up out of your farming inclustry ?-Yes-no, not exactly out of'that, I
might have ha.d a little money previous to that.
50520. I do not ~tsk so inquisitively as that. You started at 500 acres, and now you have property
worth over £20,000. You s!ticl to the Chairman that the removal of the duty would affect you prejudicially,
that is upon oats, that formerly you were receiving 2s. Gel. a bushel upon oats, and now you receive 3s.
Did not you receive more than 3s. Gd. a bushel for oats long before there was any dnty on at all ?-Yes,
we received 5s., but that was many years ago, when there was not much farming going on.
50521. It is a question of supply and demand. You bad not the stuff, and you were sure of a
demand for it ?-Yes, hut we are sure of the stuft'now, we have the ground broken up.
50522. You say we have a sufficiency now in the colony to supply the demand ?-Of oat.s?
50523. Yes ?-Not quite.
50524. But you got more for oats before the dnty was on, was not that so ?-Many years ago.
50525. How many years ago ?-Ten or twenty years ago.
50526. Twenty years ago you were getting 20s. a bushel ?-I never saw that here.
50527. And ten years ago you got 5s. a bushel for oats ?-Yes.
50528. Was there any duty on them ?-No duty.
50529. Then the duty has not affected the matter at all, has it, in cereals ?-After that, of course,
they fell so low if it had not been for the duty we would not have been growing oats at all.
50530. When the duty was on they we1·e very low ?-But it had not tn,ken effect then.
50531. You think it stopped the importation ?-To a great extent.
50532. Then if you are only getting 6d. a bushel more for your oats than yoll would have got if
there were no duty on, who is paying that 6d. ?-I suppose those that purchase.
50533. The consumers pay it ?-Yes. .
50534. What extent of oat land is there in this neighbourhood here ?-I could not stty; it i,:; a broad
question.
50535. Y on know the locality very well, being so long here. How many acres do you think are
suitable for growing oats. Of course you have shown that some grow as low as :fifteen hnshels an acre aml
some as high as 50 ?-Any ground snitahle to grow any other cereals is suitable for oats, for oats will
grow upon much poorer grouml than barley or wheat will. .
50536. Some of the farms that you call best fmms produce rbuch more than other farms do, and you
can tell how many acres of land in this neighbourhood are suitable for oat growing. You know, as a matter
of fact, that not much land in the colony of Victoria is suitable for oats except such country as this ?-There
may he 4,000 acres, but those 4,000 do not all grow oats.
1~. R, Grn.ba.m,
Esq., J.l'.,
contnwed.
12th ntay 1883.

1~ ... s. Gtabam,
Esq., J.P.,
conttnued,
12th May 1883,
1496
50537. But they could grow oats ?-Yes, they are Euitable for oats.
50538. And you think the duty should be continued for the purpose of continuing t.he production of
oats on this particul11r mea of land ?-Yes.
50539. What do you mean by best farms ; is the best farm that which is manured and cultivated ?­
·when I say best farms I mean the best soil.
50540. Natural soil ?-Yes.
50541. What does your own farm produce on the average. You say you cultivate sometimes as
many as 400 acres ; do you produce oats principally ?-Oat.s, wheat, and barley, when I did do so_.
50542. How many bushels of oats would your ground produce now-say upon the average. Would
it be 45 bushels to the acre ?-The last two years mine averaged 60 bushels an acre; but the next two or
three years it might be half that.
50543. Would it be fair to take it at 40 bushels as an average ?-Not all round.
50544. What would i.t be ?-Twenty-five perhaps.
50545. That would be at 2s. 6d. per bushel, or say 3s. a bushel-£3 5s. per acre. You told the
Chairman the cost of sowing and arranging the whole farming would be about 20s. an acre without the
threshing, which would be 10s. an acre more, and that the straw would be 40s. an acre this year. Then
the 40s. covers the whole expense you can possibly name in connexion with the keeping of the farm, and
lOs. more than the cost, so that you get £a 3s. out of every acre, and 10s. beside, which is £3 13s. an acre
profit ?-Yes ; but that is only an occasional time. In other years the straw may lie and rot ..
50546. But in other years you may get more for straw than in this ?-No; I think this is an extremely
high price.
50547. Is not there a prospect of a good coming year ?-No; t.here would be too much hay and
gmss down below, and then we get nothing for straw at all.
50548. But even taking off the straw you still show a profit of £1 13s. an acre ?-If we do not get
a profit in some way, what is the good of farming?
50549. ·what is the rent for a farm per acre, about here-a medium farm ?-A fortnight ago I heard
one landlord refuse 30s. an acre rent for twelve months.
50550. 'l'hat is a farm that would produce about 60 bushels of oats to the acre ?-Yes.
50551. Then the Commission is to understand from you that provided the malting in bond is carried
out on the principleJ> the Chairman has put, that is that it does not come into competition with the local
barley, you have no objection to the malting in bond being allowed ?-I have no objection to malting in
bond; but I think it ought to be Victorian barley.
50552. Victorian barley cannot be malted in bond, it is only barley that comes from foreign parts
that is dutiable, and therefore bonsled. Now, if that barley be imported and malted in bond, and then
exported again-do you agree with that course ?-I do not agree with malting in bond at all; I do not
consider it is right.
50553. Y on said to the Chairman it was right if it dill not come into competition. If the duty
were taken off potatoes, do you mean to tell the Commission that the eolony of Victoria would be swamped
from New Zealand with that particular root ?-Yes.
50554. Is there any probability of such a thing occurring ?-I think so.
50555. Are not we at present pretty ·well supplied with potatoes from theW estern district, W arrnant
bool, and so on ?-About half.
5055G. Does that come into competition with the Lancefield growers ?-Yes.
"50557. Would it not be right to have a duty upon them then to protect you ?-How could you
manage it ?
50558. You would like it ?-Certainly not.
50559. By M1·. Longmore.-I would like you to enter into a few particulars about the cost of
producing-what is the cost of ploughing· an acre ?-The cost of ploughing is nowadays much cheaper
than it used to he-it is about 10s. an acr(l.
50560. Harrowing?-You get harrowing and all done for l Os.-at any rate it is not more than
2s. Gd. more.
505Gl. Seed ?-Seed 6s. to 'is.
505G2. Cutting ?-Six shillings an acre.
50563. Threshing is £1 a hundred, is it not ?-Yes.
50564. And yon pay the labour ?-Yes, it costs about £2.
50565. That is 5t1. a bushel for a crop of 25 bushels-that is lls.
505GG. Bags ?-Ten shillings a dozen.
50567. Half a dozen will do an acre of 25 bnshels ?-Yes.
about that.
50568. There is 5s. carriage of the grain to Melbourne ?-A bout 5s. a ton-that is from the station,
but there is carriage to the station as well, which may be another 5s. perhaps.
505G!.l. A ton of oats is about 56 bushels, is it not?-Yes.
50570). That would be 5s. altoget,her per acre ?-Yes.
50571. Expenses in Melbourne ?-They are pretty large with commission agents.
50572. I want to know for calculation's sake ?-Fourpence-halfpenny a bushel.
50573. That is 10s. an acre for 25 bushels ?-Yes.
50574. Xow what about your wear and tear ?-Of course there is something to be looked to in
that.
50575. I just want to show you this now as compared with your evidence, because when you started
you showed that there were 35 bushels to the acre upon the average of oats, and that the sale of the straw
more than covered all the expenses connected with the production of it, so that would be five
guineas an ~1,cre clear profit to the farmer for every acre of oats he grew upon the average ?­
Yes.
5057G. Now here you have given us expenses amounting to £2 15s. Gel. for growing an acre of
oats, and you have not allowed anything for we::tr and tear, and you s~ty now that the average is 25 bushels
to the acre, which at 3s. comes t.o £3 15s. ?-Yes.
50577. Would you put. 4s. Gd. an acre ou for wear and tear ?-No.

1497
50578. What woulL1 you do for interest oE your money for twelve months-for your implenients
when you have to re-supply them when they are broken up ?-Yes, that is true. .
50579. vVe eau certainly put down £3 as the cost of an acre of oats, and you reahze about £3 10s. or
£3 l5s. according to your statement ?-Yes. ·
50580. So it is not all profit ?-I am aware of that, although the other gentleman thought it was all
profit ; if he had put it in the same way as you do it woulll appear quite clitTerent.
50581. vVhen did you see an average of two tons of stmw off an acre of grain ?-Perh!~ps never;
I 8nid there may be about that, because, as far as my judgment is coueerued, I never did grow hay. .
50582. No, no, straw. I ask these questions becanse I think you spoke w1tbont thought-just
to put the ma,tter right, what is the average quantity of hay that grows per acre in the colony ?-Perhaps
about 30 cwt.
50583. The straw will not be more than half that when you take the grain off?-No; of course
when the grain comes out there is not the weight.
50584. Then the averag·e of straw is 15 cwt. instead of two tons, ::ts you put it ?-Yes, bui, last year
was a heavy crop, and I dar~· say we might have pretty near it, but as an average we have not anything
like that.
50585. Are you always sure of getting £1 a ton for your straw ?-I never saw it before till this
year, and we are not likely to see it again for some years.
50586. Have you formed any idea whether a duty upon an article coming in tends to steady the price
of that artiele?-Yon mean on grain?
50587. Suppose that a man has to pay 2s. a cental upon oats, and they are only 2s. a bushel here,
will he semi into the colony then, as a rule ?-No, it is a check.
5058fl. Therefore it keeps out importation when the market is low?-Yes.
50589. Anil at the time that the farmer wants to realize something for his crop, that is when it is
very low, foreigners are kept out?-Yes.
50590. And yon approve of that ?-Yes.
50591. Do you think if we should get a very bacl year for wheat growing, and we should not grow
enough for our own use, would not that duty be a preventive of wheat coming in, so as to prevent the
fanners getting a high price ?- Y cs.
50592. By .Mr. Lobb.-Yon occupy 1,600 acres; I am not going into any evidence that has been
already taken; I may ask a few questions upon matters that have not been toucl1ecl upon. Hmv do you
occupy t.he remaining portion of yonr land ?-Dairying and grazing.
50593. Are you in favour of any alteration in the duties upon butter, cheese, and baeon, ami that
sort of thing; any redttctiou ; Ol' are you in favom of retaining the duties as they are ?-In favour of
retaining them as they are.
50594. Will you tell the Commission what are the things you are concerned in regarding farming;
do you make cheese ?-Not now.
50595. Buttet· ?-Yes, we make a little butter, but I have knocked off cheesemaking ; but as far as
cheese is concerned I know that the dnty certainly onght to be upon it, and that the duty upon cheese ought
to remain. I clo not know whether there is any clut.y upon comlensed milk, but I think it ought to be
seen to.
50596. In fact you are in favour of the present duties?-Yes.
50597. By M1'. Woods.-I think there is no duty upon condensed milk ?-I think---.
50598. By .tl£1'. Lobb.-You disagree with the eYiclence given by certain grainbrokers the other
{1

R S. Grallam,
Esq.,J.P,,
· continued,
12th Mny 1883.
1498
50G10. If you add on to the cost of the cultivation of an acre 12s. for the rent of it, taking the
Yalue of your own farm, and putting 2s. 6tl. instead of 4s. Gtl. for the wear and tear or implements, it n1akes
up a total cost, according to the list you have given, of £3 lOs. per acre per annum ?-Yes.
50G11. And a return of 25 bushels per acre would give you £3 15s. in money, a profit of. 5s. an
acre?-Yes, an cl many a time we work at a loss instead of a profit.
506!2. Those then are exceptional seasons when yon lose the crop altogether ?-Yes.
50G 13. Every fal'mer of cOJn·se has to take a risk, but do you wish the Commission and the country
to believe that 5s. per acre profit is the usnal ::md normal rate of profit upon farming operations in this district?
-It varies, in some years that is all the farmers get.
50614. We have been trying to get an average year-everybody knows and admits that there are
exceptional years-there may be one year in which yon say yon woul(l get GO bushels to the ::tere-of
cOiu·se the calculation between 60 bushels and 26 makes all the additional of the 60 over the 25 clear profit,
assuming the expenses to be the same-of course some of the expenses increase and some do not, but there
may be another year in which the yield may be. only fifteen bushels, and that would be an exceptional year
in the opposite direction '1-Yes.
50615. Therefore, for the pnqrse of our investigation we asked you to name an average year?
-Yes.
50616. And I understood you to tell me, when I commenced the inquiry, that 35 bushels
per acre might be taken as the fair average yield of the district, and you afterwards reduced it to 25
bushels as the yieltl of yom own farm. Mr. Longmore's inquiries were all based upon 25
bnshels per acre :tH the yield, >tml mine upon 35-now which is the correct one to be taken in this
matter ?--Thirty-five; but there are two other matters you have not taken into consideration, that is pease
and potatoes ; tlmt Yaries quite differently from the oats. Pease will bring from 6d. to Is. more per
bushel.
50617. It woulcl take us far too lcmg to go into each individual item; we took oats as the first upon
the list from which we conlu make a fair estimate of the rest ?-Quite so.
50618. Are we to nlll1erstand that 25 bushels is the or,1iuary average yield per acre, or that 35 is?
-Thirty-five.
50619. I want you aml the gentlemen present to elearly understand the position we are in about
that malting in bond business. I am quite snre, from the contradictory nature of your replies, that you h;we
not thoroughly understood the position of the case. The position is this-after the maltsters have converted
Victorim1 barley into malt for the supply of all the Victorian brewers, they naturally look round to do a
business outside the colony ?-Yes.
600:20, After they ·have supplied the whole of the colony with your barley grown here, they look
for a business outside to keep their malt houses going, and they try to find a market in Sydney and
Adelaide, of course for your barley, in the first instance-it is yonr barley they are working with ; but
when they go to those markets they find that they are 1i1et there with malt made in New Zealand from New
Zealand barley, which can be put upon the Sydney and Adelaide markets cheaper than you can put your
barley upon the same markets. Consequently they are beaten out of tho1>e outside markets. It does not
affect you here in the lenst, nor the Victorian market, when (to enable them to compete with New Zealand
malt made from New Zealand bm·ley in Sydney and Adelaide') they ask that they may be allowed to operate
upon that same barley for those marker.s, not for your market, nor to affect you in the least. They ask
that they may be pet·mitted to bring that New Zettland barley here, convert it into malt in the time when
they are not occupied in converting your barley for om owu people, and send it away to compete with New
Zealand in Sydney and Adeluide. Now are yon under the impression that that would affect your business
as a grower of barley for the Victorian m!trket ?-No, so long as the Victorian barley is all consumed in
Victoria or elsewhere.
50621. Now let me ask you this-you say" so long as the whole of the Victorian barley is consumed
in Victoria or elsewhere" ?-Yes.
50622. Up to the present time the Victorian growers have not reacheLl that point that they have got a
surplus to send elsewhere, or it is a very small surplus. Supposing the Victorian maltsters have used up as
much of the Victorian barley as supplies all the Victorian brewers, and there is a surplus to send elsewhere,
they cannot send it elsewhere to other markets, for they are beaten by New Zealand barley-you wonkl not
get it sent there except at a lower price which will compete with the New Zealand price; because you have
a duty upon it which enables you to get a higher price in Victoria, that does not enable you to get' a higher
price abroad than other people take abroad, and your barley will not command in Sydney aml Adelaide the
same price as you get here ?-So long as it does not interfere with the Victorian barley I should not object to it.
50G23. So long as it does not affect your disposing of yonr barley to Victorian brewers at the rate
you get now ?-Yes.
50624. It is impossible for it to interfere with your price for the duty prevents that. If after
malting the foreign barley in bond that malt were to be sold in Victoria in competition with Victorian malt,
yon would luwe your prices reduced by the competition ?-Yes.
50625. But that could not possibly be put upon the Victorian market without paying dnty first.
Now under those cicenmstances have you any objection ?-No, no objection at all so long as the Victorian
barley is not interfered with.
50620. By Mr. L11clntyre.-Will you tell the Commission please, Vi' hat the 500 acres of land that
you first took up here cost you-was it taken up ?-Bought at auction.
50627. What did it cost per acre ?-Five pounds.
50628. By 111T. f.obb.-In regard to this barley, I do not think you understand the question right,
now-excuse me for saying SQ.; will you tell the Commission what is the price you have been getting for
barley, say the last three or four years-what was it last year ?-Four shilliui!s.
50629. \'Vhat was it the vear before ?-It was uot. so much the vear before.
50G30. Would not it in yonr opinion be f~tr better to preveJtt ·this malting in bond so that when
barley is a low price hero it should 110t encoumge other countries to sE>nd it here, so that our barley might
be consumed for the purpose of sending to other colonies ?-Yes, but if we have not a surplus.
V
50031. But we have a surplus sometimeti ?-But I understood the Chairman to say that it was not to
interfere.

1499
The Cftairrnan.-Quitc right.
50632. B.!J Jllh. Woods.-Ca:n you compete with New Zoaiand barley here ?-No.
50633. If you cannot compete with it here, can you expect to compete vvith it in Sydney or Adelaide
plu!Sthe carriage ?.......:..No.
50634. Then under those circumstances can there he any objection to employ Victorianlabom to
work up foreign material so long us that forei"'n materiaJ is not put upon the Victorian market?-No
objection. ""
50.635. By the Clwirman.-If.ave you anything you wish to add ?-No, nothing further.
The tvitness witltd1·ew.
Hemy Louis Galbn1ith sworn and examined.
R. S. Grah!llJl,
Esq., J.P.,
tJotainued,
12th May 1883,
50636. By the Clwi·rman.-\Vhat a1·e you ?-A tenant farmer. H. L. Gn.lurutth,
50637. How many acres does your farm holding contain ?-Two hundred and sixty rented, and 12 thMaylSsa.
about sixtv freehold.
50G38. That is 320 altogether ?-Yes.
50639. How much of that do you cultivate ?-About 230 acres.
50640. What crops do you priitcipally grow ?-Ofits, pettse, barley, and potatoes.
50641. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Graham ?-Part of it.
50642. Have you any objection to the removnl of the dnty from wheat and flour ?-Individually I
have not, because in Lancefield we do not grow much wheat, we arc not now a wheat-producing district,
but it interferes with the protective ririnciples of the country, aucll oppose its being clone ..
50643. Did yotl hear Mr. Graham's evidence upon the question of oats ?-Part of 1t.
50644. Do you agree with his evidence ati far as you have heard it ?-No.
50645. Have you an objection to the removal of the duty from oats ?-A decided objection.
. 50646. How many bushels of oats to the acre will. yonr laud yield upon the average ?-It is rather
a uifficult question to answer, but I wonld not cultivate land that would only produce 25 bushels to the
acre. It would not pay for a threshing machine, which is the best test. My land has prodtlced GO bushels
to the acre for three years. .
50647. We have the evidence of Mr. Gralmm that 35 bushels to the a,cre of oats i~ the average
yield of the district, is that according to your experience ?-:For Lancefi-eld propel' it is much below the
average. If you go outside to Newham, and to the outside loamy lands, it might be the average.
50648. What would it he for Lancefield proper, as you term it ?-I cannot say, about 45, the way
we cultivate our ground. It all depends upon the way yon cultivate. One man may get 60, and another
man my not get 30. ·
50649. Did you hem· the list of expenses given by }\fr. Graham for the cultivation of an acre of
oats ?-Yes.
50650. Is that correct, according to your experie_nee ?-I differ a little, not much. I say about 14s.
an 11Cl'C would cover ploughing, harrowing, and rolling, but ad to sowing, it all depends upon whether you
are sowing for hay or for crop. Of course, for hay, you put on much more t.ha,n you do for an oat crop •
. 50651. Mr. Graham's total comcH to £2 1Ss., without any item for rent or manure, is that your
experience ?-~I heard part of that, and I would say 14s. 11n acre for ploughing, harrowing, and rolling.
50135:l. That is 1s. 6cl., more than he puts down leaving out cost of twice ploughing and
perhaps twice grubbing, as I frequently do, and the rent of my farm is 12s. !)d. an acre; some people pay as
high as 15s.; I have paid £1 rtud I8s. As to reaping, I tl.gree with him.
50653. And as to threshing, lls. ?-That depends upon the amount of your crop, say £1 a hundred, it
is hardly £1, and then you get seconds that they do not charge for.
There are a lot of things to be
considered.
50654. By M1·. Longmore.-Yotl pay for all the la hour ?-We pay for all the labour, and feed the
men. It does not come to £2.
50655. By tAe Chairnum.-Not £2 a hundred ?-No, about 30::>. '' hundred I put it down at.
50fi5G. Then the carriage 5s. ?-That is the railway.
50657. Bags cost you more ?-~That has nothing to do, I snppo~e, with this Cm:nmbsion, it is a gre11t
grievance to l,hc farmer.
50658. First of all we are at the cost of production ?-You eau put tlown the bags at from Ss. to 10s.;
they vary. in price; I think !lB. to 10s. is a fair average.
50()59. And the expenses in town ?-It eosLs me about 4~d. a bushel, inclu1liug railway freight;
weighing, receiving, and delivering at the store, whieh is about 2d. a bag, and 2d. the charges and railway
freight, come to about He!. a bushel.
50660. By llfr. Longmore.-There is carriage from the railway to t.he fMm, 5s.?-Tlutt is not 5s.,
about 4s. from my fm·m, and more or less according ti) distance from rnilwny.
50661. By the Clwi1·man.-Do you reckon anything for manure ?-I think I have paid abont as mueh
for artificial manmc, barring one farmer, as any man in the district. I pnt ontLS much as G cwt. to the acre.
50G6:.!. By .Mr. Longmore.-Bonc dust?-Yes, nml other 11rtificial manures.
5066;3. By the Cltairman.-'vVhat do you reckon your expemlitnre per acre, upon the rtYcrage, to be
in order to get 60 bnshels ?-That is a question almost impossible to auswer; it all depends upon the way
you work your farm. I subsoil my land, ru1cl my neighbour may work differently from me, and it is almost
impossible to say what it costs upon the average.
50G6±. Would !Os. an acre be a fair estimate of the expenditure for manure ?-I do not think there
is a farmer in the district, barring two, that ever goes to a halfpenny of expense in it. I have used as much
as 50s. worth per acre.
50GG5. Then we can leave that out. In what respect do you disagree with .Mr. Gmhmn in the
matter of oats ?-I disagree with him about the average quantity on the good farms of Lancefield.
50666. You do not disagree with him as to the advisability of retaining the Llnty ?-I mn thoroughly
in favour of retaining the duty.
50667. Would it be a. serious injury to the farming industry if the dnty wcrerednccd to one-half and
pnt bacl\: to what it waj> l!l 1879 ?-! O[!,lJ(lf St:ty yes or po (,0 that question! bnt I ORII tell yon, ft,S a. practical

Fl.J-.G!'loraith, farmer, that I have returns here from my salesman for the years 1878,1879, 1880, and 1881. Now, inl880
titf'~:;:"faa3 . I bought as good seed oats as the eye of man ever looked upon at ls. 10d. a bushel, bags given in. They
·· were bought at public auction in this district.
50668. Hy lvlr. Lon,qmore.-Ancl ordinary oats at 1s. Gd.?-Yes, or less, 1s. 3d.
50669. By the Chainnan.-Were those colonial-grown'?- They were colonial-grown and by
Mr. W. Grant in this district. Now I know the man that grew those must have grown them ut, a loss.
50670. That is after the duty was put on ?-It was the year after the duty wa~ put on, while the
stores in Melbourne were glutted; they had not been cleared out of New Zealand oats. We did not participate
in the benefit of the duties till the following year, because they shunted all their stuff into Melbourne,
and the stores wero glutt.ecl, and that had to be worked off before we got the advantage of it. In 1880 I ·
sold pease ~tt 2s. 2cl. a bushel, barley at ls. 7d.-Cape barley. At the end of the season they did rise to
5s. 2cl. for some English barley, but at the en,rly part of the season it was nbout 2s. 2d., and I sold
later on at 4~. 6d. This account is from D. :Melville n,nd Company. In 1879, oats ranged from 3s. 2c1. to
4s. 2d.; in 1880, from 1s. 5~d. to 2s. 4d.; and in 1881 m\ts were 2s. 3!d. to 4s. I will give you the price
of harlev also. In 1881 it went from 2s. 3.,!,d. to 3s. lld.
50671. What is it now ?-I sold it tl1is year, 400 or 500 bags, at 5s. 2d. I see by the papers l1ere
the evidence of Mr. Clapp and other gentlemen before your Commission about oats. I sold him 795 bags
of' oats at 3s. 2d. on Tuesday last ; they were a splendid sample of oats.
50672. Wlmt did he say in his evidence the price w~\S ; does that agree with his evidence ?-Yes,
his evidence is fair enough as far as it goes ; but I see some evidence here from Mr. McKenzie, I think it
is. He says the duty upon oats ought to be reduced ; he thought it should not be more than 6d. a bushel;
at pre:;entit is 2s. tL cental. He had to buy New Zettland oats, which he dealt with in bond, exporting the
oatmeal. Now, in that matter of oatmeal in bond, I believe that the Custom.s revenue of the colony has
been "got at," to use a common expression, because they weigh in 40 lbs. of oats to the bushel ·am! they
weigh out 40 lbs. of oatmeal, and they allow nothing for the debris, and the revenue is defrauded to that extent.
50673. By iYJ.r. Longm,ore.-Ancl the oatmeal is about only 20 lbs. to the bushel ?-They weigh in
40 lbs. and they weigh out 40 lbs.
50674. By the Chai1·nwn.-But you are not sure of that ?-I am pretty sure of it.
50675. You are only giving us a supposition ?-I have it from a gentleman who has pretty good
knowledge.
50676. You cannot give second-hand evidence? -I ttm not a miller, of course. Now barley comes
in 50 lbs. and goes out 40 lbs. in malt; but they should send out 50 lbs. in malt. As to malting in bond, I
am decidedly opposed to 1t.
50677. Whn,t do you say of malt ?-Fifl,y lbs. comes in and 50 lbs. goes out.
50678. But there is nothing at all upon it ?-I believe they are doing it at the present time. They
sell our good barley and shunt away the bad stuff. I wish to return to the oat question. I see th~tt some of
the gentlemen here who gave evidence, I think it is Mr. Aitkin, said that our oats are not good enough to
make oatmeal of, that the New Zealand oats are a much superior (l.rticle·to ours.
50679. For that purpose ?-For that purpose.
50680. Is that in accordance with your experience ?~In the great show of the world our oats took
the premier position ~·t the Exhibition; and I see Mr. Gibson has given his evidence here, but he ha~ not
said anything upon that point; but he has been in the trade for some thirty years, I think, and he told me
himself that my oats grown in Lancefield (that he bought one day, through Donalcl Melville and Company,
400 or 500 bags, allCl he bougllt :Mr. J. ,J. Daly's, a neighbour of mine, whose oats took the premier position
at the show) would give from 5 lbs. to 7 lbs. more ontmeal--thttt is oats from L(l.ncefield--than you could
get from New Zealnncl; and he gave as his reason that ours was finer in the skin and there was less waste.
It has been often said that we cannot grow oats for milling. That is :Mr. Gibson's evidence to myself, after
having bought my oats and Mr. J. J. Daly's oats the same year.
506tsl. I think that is enough in relation to the question of oats. Now about the question of barley?
-I would like to call yonr attention to this about oats. Mr. Derham: says, in his evidence, at present
imported oats are worth from 2s. 6d. to 2~. Rd. in bond and tlmt ours are worth 3s. 4cl. I sold mine at
3s. 2d. "This was not," he was informed, "an oat-growing country." We can grow quite enough for our
own people.
50682. Thi,; part of the country, we quite understand, is suitable for oats ?-Yes, and so is
Kyneton, and eo is B[tllarat, and so is Gippsland. Anythiug south of the Dividing range is oat-growing
country.
50683. As to barley,'[ understand that you are opposed to the removttl of the duty upon barley?-
I am decidedly. ·
50684. Are we producing as much barley in the colony as we require for our own purposes?­
I believe so, and we can produce any an1otmt, for, uorzh of the DiYidiug range, .as fine barley can be grown
as anywhere in the world.
50685. See:ng that we have very nearly, if not quite, overtaken our own requirements, and shall
shortly have a surplus to export, is there nny purpose to he served by keeping the duty any longer ?-I call
that rather a leading question, but I will answer it. I say we can grow plenty of barley if the price is
good enough, if they will give us, stty, 5s. a bushel. I do not care to see it higher, ancll would not like
t:o see it lower; I would go in for a sliding scale. If barley gets above that, reduce the dnty. It is a
pnying price to the farmer, (l.ncl a small price will not pay him. We can grow plenty of it if they will only
give us the price.
50686. B;lj Jlit·. Longmm·e.-Is that malting barley ?-Yes, malting barley. I got 5s. 2d. this year.
50687. By the Clwirman.-You approve of a sliding scale ?-I approve of a sliding scale ; they
do it often in letth1g farms where I CIHne from. I do not think they should go 11p to fa,mine prices. But
I wish to give one of my re>t80ns for opposing malting in bond.
50688. I nnderstoocl that you were going to give the reason~ why you oppose the abolition of the
duty ?-The abolitiun of the duty I think I have givcu a re£Lson against, that we can gww it ourselves.
But in New Zeabntl they get much henvier crop.s than we do, and they are bound, a:,; ftn as I know of the
colony, to break UIJ the land to put in English grasses, and they have no market ot their own, and they are
bound to send it to Ylctoria.
1500

1501
50689. Are you opposed to the malting in bond ?-Yes., entirely.
50690. Upon what grounds ?-There are various grounds. Perhaps you might rule some of them
out of onler, beea11Se I cannot give them out of my own actual knowledge. Bnt I can give this out of my
o>l;n actual knowledge, that they can go and buy IL few thousand bags just when the farmers are rushing
and bonnd to seml to market for want of money to pay for harvesting and threshing.
50691. Wbo do this ?-The maltsters and middlemen.
50692. Go where ?-To New Zealand and buy a few thousand- bags and be independent of the
Victorian farmer.
50693. How independent ?-They buy stuff to keep them going, and supposing they do happen to
sell at a litt.le loss to their Victorian customers, it enables them Go supply those Victorian customers foe the
time b9ing, and clown comes the Victorian marl\ et.
50694. But they cannot supply the Victorian customers without paying the duty fiTst ?-T admit
th~ -
50695. !f the bmley had to pay duty before it eame into competition with you, what harm is done
to the Victorian grower ?-It enables them to mop up all the barley. They can get at i1 low price, antl they
can send out an inferior barley as being malted in bond, and they sell the best here.
50696. But it would not do you harm to send out the inferior stuff-it goes to Sydney and Adelaide?
-I consider it does us harm.
50697. Do you expect that you ean secure the sale in the Sydney and Adelaide marl,
{;()nlinued,
12th lllay Isaa.

H. L. GalbmiLb 1
continued~
12th lllayl883.
1502
coulLl give you now would be unreliable, and I woi1ld not make an answer that I would not substantiate.
It would not be fair either to you or myself.
50720. By Mr. Longmore.-The question of rent, of com,se, interests every farmer who goes upon
land, who has not laud of his own. ·would it pay you to give a rent for land to grow 25 bushels of oats to
the acre ?-No, I would not cultivate such land.
50721. From Haytcr's statistics we find that the average last year was 24 bushels to the acre, and
9~ bushels of wheat. Would it pay yon to pay rent fo1· any land that would grow that ?-It might pay
this way, that you pay the Government Is. an acre for twenty years.
50722. Would it pay you to pay your present rent?-No, decidedly not
50723. By Mr. JJ[unro.-You were going to say something about bags jnst now. What was it?­
The grMt grievance of the farmer is, that the middleman in town gets the bags weighed in ; we pay lOd.
for the bags, and I do not believe we get lid. for them .
.'50724. That is not a matter connected with the Customs?-We care nothing ltbout the duty, the
duty is nothing. .
50725. Is not that a matter that the farrHers could regulate for themselves ?-If they stuck together
and had a combination they could. But the farmers will not combine.
50726. About malting in bond, do you know of your own knowledge whether there is any colonial
barley or malt exported ?-0£ my own knowledge I cannot answer you, it is only hearsay.
50727. By the ChaiTman.-Have you any statement to make to the Commission ?-I heard you ask
:M:r. Gralmm about farming implemencs and the dnty upon farming implements. As a farmer, I am quite in
favour of a duty being retained upon all agricultural implements that ea.n be manufactured in the colony ;
but what we cannot manufactme or produce, I tbink ought to come in as free as possible, except for revenue
purposes. I do not speak upon that subject authoritatively, but I think the agriculturalists prefer the colonial
implements to the imported, aml they would not have the imported at a gift. I gave £26 for a plough no later
than Tuesday last. I would add that upon my 320 acres, of which I cultivate 230 acres; I employ an average
of nine men per week per annum. Each and every one of those men pays through the Cnstom-house and
contributes to the revenue of the colony. You can go here and see twenty square miles, not very far from
here, with one man per week per annum.
50728. By 1Jf1·. JJ1cintyre.-What wages do you pay the nine men upon the farm ?-They vary ; £1
a week and their food, and 17s. a week and their food.
50729. None less than I7s.?-No.
50730. Then the average is about 18s. Gd. a week ?-About that.
50731. By Nr. llfunro.-Have you any scarcity of labour?-No, but labour has not been so
plentiful as it was some years ago. I really think we could very well afford to introduce some more labour,
but I have no scarcity ; it greatly depends upon how the farmer treats his men.
50732. Then you would be in favour of immigration ?-Individually I would be, although I have
had no scarcity.
50733. But you would have no objection to immigration?-Personally none. I think we want population.
T!te ~vitness withdrew.
Willlmn Wllson,
E•q.,
12tll :Mny lS89,
William Wilson, Esq., President of the Shire of Romsey, sworn and examiuetl.
50734. By tho ClbaiTman.-What are you ?-A farmer and grazier.
50735. How many acres does your holding contain ?-Over 1,200 altogether.
50736. How many do you cultivate ?-I average from 80 to 120.
50737. Say lOO-what do you grow principally ?-The general erops that the other gentlemen grow,
oats, pease, barley, and potatoes.
50738. What use do you put the rest of the land to ?-Grazing and dairying.
50739. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses ?-I did not hear all Mr. Graham's; I
heard Mr. Galbraith's.
50740. And a portion of Mr. Graham's?-Yes.
50741. Have you anything to add to the information t.hose gentlemen gave us ?-As regards the
average upon oats from ten years I calculate the average at 28 bushels to the acre.
50742. That is from ten years of your own experience?-Yes.
50743. Is vour land rented or freehold ?-I have one block rented from Government. Of course I
pay them 2s. an a~re until it is cleared, and I have a block rented that belongs to my wife's father, but it is
tt private arrangement ; it is a very small rental and I may call it freehold.
50744. Do you get 320 acres from the Government ?-No, it is only 144.
50745. That is included in the 1,200 acres it is over 1,200.
5074G. Is it part of the 144 acres that yon cultivate ?-No.
507-±7. Did the previous witnesses leave unstated anything that you think it is material to say in the
interests of the farmers iu this Llistrict l-~No, I did not remark anything at the time that I would add to
their evidence.
50748. Nothing that you would disagree with ?-No.
50749. Then I may say that you agree with the evidence of the previous witnesses ?-In
general.
50750. In relation to the operation of the tariff, and the necessity for retaining the duties ?­
Yes, by all means. I would add, that in calcnlating what it actually costs us to produce an acre of crops
there are hundreds of items that we cannot take into consideration.
50751. By M1·. llfclntyre.-How long have you been f[~rmiug in this country ?-Twenty-one years.
I would place the estimate of growi11g an acre higher than any of the other witnesses did ; I think they
are below the estimate.
50752. Y on have been twenty-one years growing crops here-how many acres dill you st>wt with
as farmer and grazier ?-One hundred and sixty.
50753. And you have gradually in·creased your holding to 1,200 acres, less 144 that you lease from
the Crown ?-There is 220 acres of that thfl.t do not belong to me by right.
50754, That is 364 acres off the 1,200-is that eo ?-Yes,

1503
50755. Thn.t leaves you 836 acres of your own freehold '?-Yes, it is about that. Wlllinm Wllson,
50756. What do you estimate the value of that freehold at ?-I do not estimate it at over £3 or £4 .,0 ,~t~~~.
an acre. 12th Muy 1883.
50757. Then yom land is not so good as Mr. Graham's ?-No, it is not.
507 58. Have you auy idt?a of the total outlay upon your 120 acres that you cultivated last year ?­
The outlay upon that, as far as I can remember, was between £300 and £400.
50759. For the 120 acres ?-Yes.
50760. Could you tell the income from it ?-I could not tell the income from it, but I could tell the
income from the whole.
50761. But you have not a, separate account of that ?-The income from that year you can hardly
take as a just estimate; I may have grown this year and may hold over till next year.
50762. But vou can tell us the value of what vou have in hand from last year's crops ?-I can
hardly tell. " "
50763. By the Cl~airman.-You reckon 120 acres produced upon the average 28 bushels to the
acre?-Yes, taking the various crops and averaging them all round.
50764. By Mr. 1Jfum·o.-Are you in favom of malting in bond ?-If it could be carried out honestly;
but I have been told they bring in an inferior kind of grain, and that goes into competition with our oats
as feed.
50765. By the Ghairman.-It could not possibly come out of bond and come into competition with
you without paying duty ?-Our oats go out, and a quantity come in of an inferior class. A quantity of
ours go out, and they get a drawback upon it. ·
50766. There has no U.rawback ever been allowed ?-[No answer.]
50767. By llfr. Jlfum·o.-'Ne are now referring to barley. Supposing New Zealand. barley came
in of an inferior quality, do you mean to say that our Victorian-grown barley would be made mto malt and
exported in lieu of the inferior barley that came from New Zealand ?-That is just what I mean.
50768. Is the barley that we grow here superior to the barley they grow in New Zealand?­
I cannot answer that question.
50769. Do you know, of your own knowlcdO'e, that there is imported from New Zealaud inferior
barley, or barl.cy of a certain class ?-I have read in °the newspapers tlutt it comes in here as horse-feed, and
onrs goes out, and they get the drawback, and that is equal to bringing in the other duty free.
50770. Tell me this a.s a farmer and as a practical man, would there be any means of tletecting, after
the barley was imported and converted into malt, whether it was Victorian-grown or New Zealand-grown?
-I do not know that there would be.
50771. Could an expert tell which was which ?-I really could not tell.
50772. Then if we were to 11llow malting in bond, what check would the Customs have upon their
substituting or exporting Victorian-grown barley in lieu of New Zealand, which they have importedwould
there be any means of checking it ?-The only means I see is keeping a watch over it o.ll the
time.
50773. Have you any scarcity of labonr ?-At present, no ; I have had.
5077±. fbd you last season ?-I woultllike emigration if it was the right kind.
50775. You would be in favour of importing labour ?-Yes, of the right kind, but not
incliscrimiJ!atel y. .
50776. What would you consider the right kind ?-Agricultural labourers and tlomestics.
50777. Domestic servants ?-Yes.
50778. You would not be in favour of free immigration ?-Not the clearing of the workhouses at
home.
50779. You would like to have the passages reduced to a low rate, so that working men could come
out here ?-I believe in the principle of those here helping thelr friends to come out, so that we should get
the proper quality.
50780. Are you in favom of the duty upon implements ?-Yes, if I can get a good price for what
I grow, I am very willing to give a good price to local Mtieans.
5078 I. By JJ:[!'. Woods.-! suppose in your importation of labour you would include the importation
of doctors, lawyers, parsons, and financiers, would you not ?-I think there are too many of them in the
()Olony already.
50782. B,y M1·. Long more.-Do you find farm servants getting rich beyond those that employ them?
-No, but the case is this, because they are scarce you cannot get them to act properly. The more scarce
they are, the lesR work you can get them to do.
50783. B;IJ Mr. Woods-They talk about eivht hours to you now and then, do they ?-Yes.
50784. By MT. Longmote.-Yon want to g~t them at a gootl price ?-'.No, but, as I say about the
artisans, if I get a good price I would give them o.. good price.
50785. And if you have not wol'k for them, of course you send them about their business ?-It is
not likely I should keep them.
50786. In refereucc to the malting of barley in bond, do you know that New Zealand barley is
malted in a separate malt-house from :1ll other barley ?-No, I was not t1Ware how they managed it.
50787. Have you heard that it was so ?-All that I heard is that they brought in an inferior class,
which they would not use for malt, and which is used as horse-feed.
50788. Have you ever heard there was a malting-house appointed specially for grain that came into
the colony ?-No.
50'789. From what you say, I take it you believe that they buy an inferior article at a very low
price in New Zealand, and pay the duty upon it, of course; but you believe they send out our barley and
get a drawback upon it ?-I have been told so-I clo not know the tricks of the trade.
50790. By the Cltairrnan.-Do you know the difference between malting in bond ancl being allowed
a drawback upon malt that has paid duty as baTlcy ?-No, I do not know the difference.
50791. You know that there arc two different ways of dealing with this question that are under
·discussion. You sometimes hear of it spoken of aB malting in bond and sometimes as a drawback, do you
not?-Yes, .

WJiliam Wi!Bon,
.;,;;:!.~rt.
1504
50792. Do you know that if the malting in bond is allowed, there will have to be a separate apartment
in every malt house that, nndertakes the malting in honcl, in which the malting of foreign barley will
12th liiay 1883. be carried on separate from the Victorian barley, under the supervision of a Government locker, who would
have to see that no evasion of the Customs took place. Are you aware of that ?-No, I do not know what
arrangement they have. .
50793. Then you do not know what malting in bond is?-Yes, I have an idea.
50794. But, if you did not know that, you hr"ve no idea of what malting in bond is ?-I did not
know the regulations under which they carry it out.
50795. What do you suppose malting in bond to be when you are .speaking of it~what is your
idea of it ?-They are charged duty when the grain comes in, and when the malt goes out they get a
drawback.
50796. That is a drawback regulation, not malting in bond at all. I would like to explain to yo11
and to the ot,her gentlemen present that there are these two modes proposell of dealing >Y1th this matter; the
Robert Blrney,
Esq., J.P ..
l2tll May 1883.
one is very different from the other. The law, as it :1t present stands, allows almost every kind of manufacture
to be carried on with foreign articles, either in bond or by means of a drawback. Sometimes it is

1505
50807. Is that what you want to add to the evidence of previous witnesses ?-I will answer any
question that is put to me. I do not want malting in bond. ·
50808. So far I understand you ?-I understand malting in bond thoroughly welL I. did not hear
~U the evidence given. I only came in when Mr. Galbraith was being examined. I am agamst malting in
bond, and I am against oats going out on drawback. I am a farmer since I was born, and to say that we
cannot grow oats fit to make meal is an absurdity.
50809. By 1.Wr. Woods.-Are you aware that bonded goods go from Melbourne to Echuca ?-Yes,
and are sent over the border there.
50810. And they go iu bond ?-I believe so.
50811. How do they go ?-I do not know-is there a Customs officer watching them?
50812. Do they go along with any other goods ?-I do not know; I suppose they go in the train.
50813. Do they go in the same trucks with any other goods? -I could not say of my own
knowledge.
. 50814. You are not aware that those goods that go through the colony to go across the Border are
m a separate truck, locked up and sealed ?-No, I am not. .
50815. Exactly the same principle applies to malting in bond, the goods never mu at all ?-When
we had malting in bond we did not get the full price for our barley. .
50816 . . BY. ~Wr. J1fwnro.-You are in favour of the duty remaining as it is ?-Mo~t decidedly I a~;
I am a protectwmst.
them.
Why cannot these men go and live in New Zealand, and take their malt-houses w1th
[The witness produced samples of grain gro·wn by him.]
The witness withdrew.
John Hurst, Esq., J.P., sworn and examined.
50817. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-A farmer.
50818. How many acres do you have in your holding ?-Two thousand.
50819. How many do you cultivate ?-Only 40 last year.
50820. You graze the rest ?-Y Eos.
50821. You heard the evidence of the previous witness ?-Yes.
50822. Will you state to the Commission what you wish to add to that evidence, please ?-Yes, I
think I had better begin with the dairying, which is the principal industry that I follow. I object to the
~uty remaining on butter and cheese, I think it is very injurious to the trade, because on the du~y being
Imposed on butter and cheese comin"' into this country. I think it caused duties to be placed on m other
countries, and so impeded trade. Se~eral of the colonies have put on exactly the same duty as we have
ourselves.
50823. By JJir. Longmore.-Had they their duties on before we had ?-No, we were the first to
impose the duties, and after we imposed the duties they imposed the duties upon us. At the time we
imposed the duty of 2d. a lb., we were exporters of only 26,000 lbs. of butter per annum, and in 1881 we
exported something like 2,000,000 lbs. within a very small fraction. I can O'ive you the exact returns from
5
the Customs if you desire it.
. 50824. What harm does the butter from the other colonies do you as a manufacturer of the article?­
In this way. If but,te; sent to o~her colonies is 8d. a lb. in Sydney or Adelaide before the butter I seml
:from here cap. enter their markets, It would be 10c1., consequently I am a loser of that 2d. a lb.
50825. No ?-Yes, decidedly; if I could send my butter direct without that extra 2d. being paid at
Sydney or Adelaide, that 2d. or a great portion of it, if not the whole of it would come to me.
. 50826. You :nean to say that the Sydney people do not pay the 2d. '?-Certainly; I say I have t? pay
It because I export 1t. I am well aware ofthis in the same light as you see it; I am w~ll aware that If the
Sydney people pay 8cl. a lb. I have to sell mine at 6cl. here to go into their market, but If they had not the
2d. a lb. I should get 8d.
50827. They would tell you the very opposite in Sydney; they would say if we had not the 2cl. a lb.
we should only pay 6d. ?-No, I think not.
50828. B,y llir. Longmore.-What power would you have over them ?-By doing my utmost to get
intercolonial free-trade.
50829: By t!te Chairman.-Anytbing else 7-With regard to agricultural imp1em.ents, I am in favour
of. all duty bemg. rem~ved from them. I cannot see how we can be expected to compete m the same market
with other colomes w1th the produce from ours while they get their implements free and we have to pay a
heavy duty.
50830. Do you think you would get implements for any less if there were no duty ?-If not, what is
the use of the duty?
50831. Do not you see you are arguing just the reverse upon the implements that you do upon the
b~tter. You say if there were no duty in Sydney you would get the 2d. a pound ?-The two cases are
different, one is export and the other is import.
50832. It is export to you, but it is import to them ?-Yes.
. 50833. If you. say that the r~moval of the duty upon implements coming into Melbourne w~ll ~ake
Implements cheaper m Melbourne, It would follow that the removal of the cluty from butter gomg mto
Sydney mus~ make butter cheaper in Sydney, consequently you would get no bett~r price ,in Sydney for
your butter 1f the duty were removed ?-The English machine makers sending then· machmes here have
that cluty to pay here, and it must necessarily be added to the price het'C,
, 50834. ~s not it t~e same with the butter in Sydney ?-No; it works exactly the same ~ith them
as It works w1th me ; It causes them to send less it diminishes their export and an extra pnce for the
article has to be obtained here. ' '
50835. And you get an extra price for your butter iu Sydney, because of the duty? -No; it does not
come to me, the lower price comes to me certainlv. .
50836. By JJ11·. Longmore.-May I ask you whether agricultural implements. are clearer now than
they W';_l'e before the du~y was put on ?-I ~nswer that by saying that the times are.d1fferent. .
o0837. At the tn:ne you speak of, Implement factories were not common 1n :Melbourne, with the,
exception of very rude implements, which were made at the time, and that is the reason.
T..rniFF.
9 E
Robert :BI111.ey,
Esq., J.P.,
con#nueil,
12th :May lSB3...
JohnHntst,;.
Esq.,J.P.,
12th llfny 18$?,.

John Burst,
Esq.,J.P.,
continued,
12th May 1883.
1506
50838. Have you any idea whether protection caused those implement factories to be started or not?
-I dare say it has caused some of them, but it has not caused all of them. I knew important factories before
the tariff was put on, and of course they started umler free-trade; the others have started since, so I can
scarcely answer that question.
50839. As a matter of fact, take the reaping machine, do you know whether the reaping machine is
not sold now for a little over half what it was before the duty was on ?-I know that such is the fact.
50840. The world is 5,000 years old, according to some people; but until we made those machines,
we did not get cheap reaping machines ?-That has nothing to do with it.
50841. By lvlr. Mclntyre.-Your business is essentially that of a dairyman ?-Principally so.
50842. You make butter and cheese ?-I make butter and cheese. -
50843. And though the system of taxation in this country gives you 2d. a lb. upon your production,
you do not desire to keep that tax ?-I desire to see it abolished. What good can it possibly do me when
we are exporting 2,000,000 lbs. weight per annum?
50844. If through this system of taxation 2d. a lb. has been put on in Sydney and Adelaide and you
only get the price less 2d. a lb. that the local producer regulates ; but if the tax were taken off, you would
get nearly all that 2d. ?-Not all, but a great portion of it.
50845. And the people there would get the benefit of the greater supply which you would send there?
-Yes.
50846. Do you produce any bacon ?-~L\. little ; but it is all consumed in the colony.
50847. You do not desire to continue the tax upon bacon, do you ?-I desire no taxes whatever,
except for revenue purposes.
50848. You have got 2,000 acres?-Yes ; it is not all my own.
50849. How much of it is freehold ?-Sixteen hundred acres.
50850. How long have you been in this neighbourhood ?-Twenty-three years.
50851. How many acres did you start with ?-Seventy-eight.
50852. And you have gradually increased your land until you have got this large acreage now?-Yes.
50853. You employ a number of men, do not you ?-No, I think about eight-that is six men
and two girls. -
50854. Are those employed about the dairy business ?-Yes, dairy and farm, but principally dairy.
50855. How do you pay your dairy people ?-I pay them from 12s. to £1 a week.
50856. A little less than farm labourers, who get from, say from 17s. 6d. to £1 a week and are
found ?-Yes.
50857. Is a large area of this land fit for cultivation?-Yes.
50858. How many out of the 1,600 acres are your own ?-I think from 600 to 800.
50859. And you find a dairy to be the best paying purpose you can turn it to; is that so ?-No; I
worked the dairy at a considerable loss during the cheap period of three years, which ended two years.
50860. When you were working at a loss did you hold the same opinion as you do now ?-Yes,
because of my loss.
50861. May I ask why you do not turn any portion of your farm to growing oats, which are so highly
protected by the State ?-Yes, for one thing there is a very great scarcity of labour, at least we feel it so.
As for the people living here in Lancefield, of course the labourers in the colony at the harvest :flock to
them, but we people living at the outside must do the best we can for labour.
50862. If you had cheap labour would you turn part of your land to oat-growing and other cereals ?
Yes, certainly.
50863. Do you mean cheap labour or more of it at the same price ?-I mean more of it at the same
price so long as it is good labour.
50864. So long as you are producing grain, would it not be to your interest to have the duty upon
grain that exists now ?-I think not.
50865. You would still hold your present opinion ?-Yes.
50866. Bu ~fr. Longmo1e.-Would you find any want of labour if you offered another half crown
or five shillings a week, do you think ?-My calling would not afford that ; I could not compete in the
market, and even then I could not get them I know.
50867. Bu 11/r. Munro.-How would the removal of this 2d. a lb. duty on butter improve your
position ?-I have already answered that.
50868. Really I did not catch, although I have tried to follow it. I have been thinking of it since
you have been speaking. Now, how does this 2d. a lb. affect you; you are not charged with it ?-I will try
to make it clear. Suppose butter is 4d. a lb. here, suppose it is 8d. a lb. in Sydney, then of course there is
a market in Sydney for our butter. We want to send it over and obtain that 8d. a lb., but in consequence
of there being 2d. a lb. duty it is only 6d. to us, consequently we should be losing the 2d.
50869. But you sell the butter here ?-But there would be a larger demand for it through the
merchants, who would get something out of it and would certainly buy it. It is as plain as possible, I do
not know that I could make it plainer.
50870. Then you are in favour of immigration ?-I am in favour of immigration certainly-family
immigration-it is a thing that will be needed for a very long time.
50i371. Assisted immigration ?--.Just such as we had twelve, fourteen, and sixteen years ago.
50872. You are aware that Queensland has a duty upon butter, too ?-Yes.
50873. And New South Wales ?-I am not sure.
50874. Bu Mr. Woods.-! think I understood you to say that your business is principally dairyfarming
?-Yes.
50875. So that the duties upon cereals are a matter of perfect indifference to you ?-No, certainly not.
50876. In what wa.y?-Simply because I m.ay at any season, whenever I see it would pay better
than dairying, begin to cultivate more largely.
50877. And in that case you would like to see the duty removed ?-And in that case I would like
to see the duty removed for this one thing, that it would balance the markets. Now, if we overstoclc--
50878: Never mind the argument-you say you would like to see it removed.?-Yes.
50879. You would like to see New Zealand oats come into competition with your oats 7-Yes.
50880. You can compete with them in the open market in Melbourne ?-Yes, I think so.

1507
50881. At the present price of labour ?-Yes, I think so.
50882. But you do not give your views any practical effect by growing oats ?-Yes.
50883. I thought you said you grew none ?-Yes, I grew 40 acres last year.
50884. You want labour ?-Yes.
50885. You would not object to a little coolie labour, for instance ?-Yes; I would not object even
to employ Chinamen.
50886. Then I understand you that that is your real meaning about immigration, that labour is too
high, and the hours are too short ?-No, I mean that the labour is too scarce, and that we cannot get the
quality of labour that we had twenty years ago. I have not found any fault whatever with the remuneration,
I like to see the working man well paid, and I do not want to reduce the working man's wages.
50887. At the same time, I understand that you employ less labour upon 2,000 acres than
Mr. Galbraith employs upon 300 ?-Yes, but if everyone was to work his land in the same way that
Mr. Galbraith works it, where would the country be, there must be a -variety.
50888. Then Mr. Galbraith ought to be prosecuted as an over-producer ?-No, no more than myself.
50889. By Mr. Lobb.-Would you be in favour of taking the duties off the products of the farmer,
and leaving them on all other manufactures ?-Certainly not, let us have fair play.
50890. By the Chairman.-Have you anything further to add ?-No, nothing that I know of.
The witness withdrew.
Fraucis Foy, Esq., J.P., sworn and examined.
50891. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-I am a grazier and storekeeper.
50892. How many acres does your holding contain ?-About 1,100 acres freehold.
50898. How many do you cultivate ?-About 80.
50894. Principally you are a grazier?-Dairying, cheesemaking principally.
50895. Will you state to the Commission what evidence you desire to give ?-I think the present
duty upon cheese and butter should be r·etained. I think it has done a great deal of good in forwarding the
interests, particularly of cheesemaking. We have had some very bad years to contend with lately, though
this year and the year before were better. It was not so good in the year before.
50896. Do you export butter like the previous witness ?-No, we principally make cheese. We
make some butter in winter.
50897. Do you export cheese ?-It is sold to firms in Melbourne, I do not know whether it is
exported.
50898. Do you wish to add anything ?-No, I think the duty is an advantage as it gives us batter
classes and prevents the New Zealand cheese, which is the principal country we have to contend
against, flooding the market with their stufi. I do not think there is any duty upon butter and cheese in
Sydney.
50899. Yes, there is 2d. a lb. upon cheese?- Yes, but nothing upon butter; but I believe it has been
abolished upon cheese lately.
50900. Butter is free in New South Wales ?-Yes, and I think lately the duty upon cheese has
been done away with-within the last month or six weeks.
50901. By ltfr. 111cintyre.-Do you think it necessary to retain a duty such as this, the butter and
cheese imported last year gave a revenue, butter of £19 for the whole year-do you think it necessary to
keep that on ; and the year before it was net very much, and the year before not very much, and you were
exporting butter. Cheese yielded £75 ?-That is English cheese. I think it prevents a lot of inferior
stuff being sent into the country under free-trade, when they have a lot of inferior stuff in other colonies
they put it upon us ; I think it is better as it is.
50902. Would it not be better to repeal it absolutely ?-No.
50908. Would it not do at a penny ?-Let it be as it is. You see with an inferior article 2d. is a
great deal, but they might face a penny.
50904. If to collect that £75 and £19 it costs the country £5,000, would you keep it on ?-I do not
want to see it altered.
The witness withdrew.
David Gibsou sworn and examined.
50905. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-Farmer and dairyman.
· 50906. How many acres have you ?-About 400 altogether.
50907. How much of these do you cultivate ?-About 80.
50908. What do you grow principally ?-Hay and oats, sometimes wheat, if I think the market will
be good.
50909. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses ?-I have heard most of the
evidence.
50910. Will you state to the Commission what you wish to say in addition to what you have already
heard ?-I very much disagree with the protective views of most of the witnesses that have been examined
here.
50911. We do not want to go into the question of views ?-I disagree with the duties that have
been imposed and their continuance.
50912. You agree then with the evidence o£ Mr. Hurst ?-Yes, to some extent. I do, but only to
some extent.
50913. Will you tell us where you differ from him ?-I differ from him as to the cost of producing
agricultural machinery. The question was asked, by one of the Commission, whether agricultural machinery
was cheaper or more costly at the present time than some years a&o, and the answer was yes. I entirely
differ from that answer. I ha.ve been a farmer for about seventeen years, and I can prove now that
machinery I am buying at the present day is actually more costly than the machinery I bought when
I commenced farming. At that time there was no duty imposed at all, an

1508
Dav!d Gibson, first reaping machine I paid less for than I paid when I bought one last year. I bought a hay rake for
ron.tinued,
~2th May 1883 .. £14 fourteen years ago, and I want a new one now, and I cannot get one under £19. The only instru~
ment that I know of that has been cheapened is the plough. .
50914. All that evidence is substantially useless unless you can make it perfectly plain to the Corn~
mission that the implements you are now purchasing v.re not superior to the implements you bought
previously ?-I do not see that there is so very much difference.
50915. Is that the only point upon which you differ from Mr. Hurst ?-That is the principal point
upon which I differ from Mr. IIurst. ·
50916. In other respects you accept his evidence as expressing your views ?-We have quite plenty
of labour here already.
50917. You have nothing further to say?-I do not see that it is at all necessary to the well-being
of the colony that the duties upon oats, cheese, and butter should be retained. I do not see that it is
absolutely necessary for the prosperity of the colony.
50918. You are not getting a better price for your oats now than you were before the duties ?-How~
long have the duties been imposed? I sold English barley fourteen years ago at 4s., and there was no
duty on then. .
50919. By Mr. Longmore.-That was not the regular price ?-Yes, that was the regular price.
50920. By tlw Cltairrnan.-You cannot compare fourteen years ago with now, because agriculture had
not then reached its present pitch in the colony?-I sold oats thirteen years ago at 2s. a bushel, and that
was not a great price, but it was the price for a great part of the year.
50921. What is the price now ?-It is often 2s., but of course it has advanced now, because there
has been a failure all through the Northern Territory; and I contend that if the Northern Territory is to
be inhabited at all as a wheat-producing country we are entirely independent of all outside supplies. But
if the well is already full, it is no use pouring more water into it.
50922. Then we shall reach our wants and commence exporting ?-With the ordinary average years
we have already reached it.
50923. Then the duties would become of themselves inoperative ?-To some extent they would.
50924. To the whole extent. If the production of barley and oats were to .reach the extent that
wheat has done, should not we be independent of import altogether, and would not it give us some 'toe
export--has not the duty upon wheat become inoperative ?-I presume there is a certain staff of men kept
there to collect the duties.
50925. We are not talking of that-we are talking of how it affects you as a farmer ?-If a number
of men have to be paid, it must affect me to some extent.
50926. But that has not an effect upon you as a fat·mer ; it only affects you as it affects me, that is
11s a mPmber of the community ?~If an injustice is done to you, that does not prevent its being an injustice
if it is done to me.
50927. Is the duty upon wheat inoperative now, as far as the markets are concerned ?-Yes.
50928. When the barley and oats have reached the same position, will not these duties also become
inoperative ?-To a few only of those farmers near the coast who can produce wheat and oats and barley
much cheaper than those in the interior on account of the carriage.
50929. By Mr. Longmore.--Were you cultivating so early as 1864 ?-No, not so early as 1864 ;
I began in 1866.
50930. Do you know the price that was paid at that time for an ordinary reaping machine ?-Yes,
I do.
50931. What was it ?-Seventy pounds.
50932. What would you pay for a reaping machine now ?-That is no criterion, for this simple·
.reason--
50933. Answer the question, yes or no ?-Yes or no will not answer that question.
50934. By tl!e Ghairnwn.-Say yes or no, and then explain ?~But I cannot say yes or no.
50935. By lif.r. Longmore.-What is the price now ?-Thirty-four or thirty-five pounds.
50936. As against £70 ?-Allow me to tell you that I bought machines in 1866 and there was no
11rotecl:ive duty on, and I paid less for my machine then than I did at the present harvest. I bought a hay
rake at that time, and then I paid £5less than I can get one in :Melbourne for at the present time.
50937. By Mr. lYicintyre.--How do you explain the statement you made just now that £70 paid for
a reaping machine in 1866 and that you can get the same article now for £34 ?-They were not £70 in 1866.
50938. The time asked was 1866 when you bought the reaping machine ?-1866 or Hl67.
50939. What did you pay for it ?-Thirty pounds.
50940. Then you made a mistake in answering Mr. Longmore ?-No; Mr. Longmore asked me
what they were in 1873 and I said £70.
At the request of the Commission the Shorthand Writer read over his notes of the questions and
answers numbered from 50929 to 50936 above. ·
The Witness.-I understood the question to be, what did a reaping machine cost in 1873 and 1874.
50940A. By 1Wr. lrlcintyre.-But I put the question upon a proper footing now. What did a reaping
machine cost in 1866 ?-Thirty pounds.
50941. What does it, cost you now ?-Thirty-two pounds last harvest.
50942. Is the machine you bought in 1866 as good a machine as you buy now ?-There is certainly
·an improvement upon the last one I bought, but a number of new machines are turned out almost upon the
·same pattern as the one I bought.
50943. Then your new machine for only £2 more is not better, in real money value, than the one
;bought eighteen years ago at that price P-It is rather a better machine.
50944. Is it £2 better?-Yes, I presume it is.
50945. Then the value of the machine at that time and now is about equal ?-Yes.
.50946. Notwithstanding the amount of labour that has been employed upon that particular article
'Ei:i.u:t:re:1--Yes.
150947. By 1Jfr. Longmore.-Did you buy a new reaping machine in 1867 for £30 ?-Yes.
:50948. Whose reaping machine was it ?-Moody's-it was under £30.
i50949. By ~}fr. 1Yfunro.-Sure1y Mr. Moody must have given it to you at half-price ?-No.

1509
{)0950. Where were you living then ?-In Gisborne.
:50951. Were there any of Moody's machines there then ?-Yes, a number of them.
!50952. How many ?-I should say almost every farmer had one-every one on a large scale.
'50953. He gave you this with a view of introducing it into the clistrict ?-Not at all. I had no
·special benefit or favour.
50954. That was the price he was charging at the time ?-That was the price he was charging at
the time.
50955. If I remember right it was about £60 ?-I beg your pardon.
50956. By Mr. Woods.-Did any one else get one at the same price ?-I do not know, I did not
inquire about that. I know what I paid for my own.
50957. By .Jfr. Munro.-You got this from Mr. Moody ofBenalla ?-Yes.
. 50958. I will write to him and_ask him what was the price of his reapers at that time, 1867 ?-You
may ask him, if you like, whether he supplied Messrs. Gibson and Dewar at that price.
50959. You stated just now that a hay rake in 1866 or 1867-- ?-1868.
50960. Was £14 ?-Was £14.
50961. What was the size of that rake ?-The same size as they now charge £19 for.
50962. What was the size ?-About 5 feet high in the wheels.
50963. And you say the price now is what ?-Nineteen pounds cash.
50964. Is there any reason why it is a little clearer just now?-Yes, no doubt there is a reason.
All the Melbourne makers are so very busy at the present time, that they are quite independent.
50965. Is this a colonial-made machine or an imported one ?-A colonial-made machine.
50966. Who asks you £19 for it ?-All the makers.
5096·7. Name one or two ?-T. Robinson, West, and all the makers.
50968. Are you open to buy them?--Yes, I am.
50969. I will take the order for one fbr £14 ?-Will you furnish one of West's, bec~tuse if you will
I will take one at the money.
The Ckairmnn objected.
50970. By Mr. M~onro.-West may be very busy and would rather not take the order, but h~ty
rakes can be got in the market for £12 to £14 ?-Both of my neighbours right and left of me paid
'actual cash £19.
50971. Did you get a price from any other £r:m beside West ?-Yes, T. Robinson and Company is
rthe same.
50972. Did you get a price from J\icLean, Bros., and Rigg ?-No, I did not.
50973. What did you give ?-I bought for £14 in 1868, and I wanted one this harvest, and £20 is
-their stated price. The order, cash price, is £19, and my neighbours, right and left of me, paid £19.
50974. Was it in harvest time ?-That is the usual price.
50975. When was it that you made this inquiry and wanted it ?-At the Melbourne show.
50976. Of course then, the man was very busy and could not take any more orders ?-No, you
'Could not get them for less.
50977. By ll:fr. Longm.ore.-How did you come to say in answer to my question, that you paid £70 ?
-I never said so. I understood your question to be this-What was the price of a reaping machine in
1863 or 1864-and the reason I gave that price was, that I was only a ploughman at the time, and the
owner bought one-and gave £70 for it. He was my uncle, and so I came t{) know the price of it.
50978. By Mr. Munro.-Are you in favour of immigration ?-I have no particular desire upon the
point. I think it would be very useful if friends were allowed to send for friends at home by paying an
amount down There is plenty of labour in the colony, but hardly of the right sort.
50979. By Mr. Longmore.-People are allowed to do that now ?-But the Government should help
to bring them out a little cheaper.
50980. But that is at the labourer's cost ; did you ever think of that ?-There are plenty brought
ut at labourer's cost beside them.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned sine die.
David Uibson,
continued,
12th l'>fay 1883.