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THE LATEST NEWS FOR WINDOW CLEANERS
Trade Show
Special
Magazine
Brought to you by the Window Cleaning Page
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Thank you
May I take this opportunity to thank you All for ateneding the
trade show
Published and produced
By WCP
Links to
Web sites
Watch there
video
Link with them
on face book

Photos

Trade Show
As a lot of you that follow the
WCP on face book
May have realised that this
year was the first ever
WCP trade show on the 17 th
of May we have been
There all day talking to every
body.

Sean Kelly
Firefighter / Window Cleaner / Family Man
Which came first fire fighter
or window cleaning?
I was a fire fighter
before I was a
window cleaner
been a fire fighter
for 6 and a1/2
years.
Could you tell us why you
chose window cleaning?
I lost my job as an auxiliary nurse and as
my partner was pregnant, needed a
good income as she got made redundant
not long before, I thought I've always
fancied being a window cleaner so I'll
give it a go, within 2days I was up and
running in my little red seat Ibiza, and
god was it tough! But I wouldn't of
changed it
How do you manage if you
get called out?
we have an online
booking system, if I
know I'm going to
be out of the station
area I book off on
my phone. If I'm
working in my
station area I leave
myself available, if
my pager goes off
whilst working I
chuck everything in
my van and drive to
the station we only
have 4 minutes
to get in and the
time goes quick!!
What window cleaning
training have you done ?
I taught myself to window clean and had
help From a few other people I had met
on how to window clean. I also have rope
access window cleaning is a bit hit and
miss there's not much down my way so
generally have to travel, but I don't mind I
enjoy it.
Rope access training
what's involved ?
You have to
attend an irata
course which is 5
days long, which
gives you a level
1 you need to
them do a
minimum of a
year and have a
thousand hours
on the ropes
before you
progress to level
2 and the same
again for level 3,
it's not a course
specifically for
window cleaners
it's designed how
to use ropes.
Is there much work for rope
access?
I find one
minute there
is loads the
next there is
none.

What type of work do you
carry out commercial or
residential?
I have a good
mixture off both, I've
got one large
contract on a
caravan site that's on
Going work, other
than that I've not got
any huge commercial
Just pubs, shops,
bars etc. it's regular
so can't complain.
ADVERTS
SPACE
What system have you got
in your van?
I've just got a normal baffled tank, with
a purpose built frame which was put
together and installed by lee Martin,
I've got a flo jet pump on it,
What makes of equipment
do you use?
Pole wise I have the
22ft facelift Phoenix
which is my every day
pole, I have a old
gardiner slx 35ft
A original ionics 35ft
pole And a old 30ft
streamline which I use
for cleaning off gutters,
Is there much work around
your area ?
Yea there's quite a bit of work round my
area, there's quite a few window cleaners
too. But I help other window cleaners out
too; I've got a bit of work that is subbed
to me so I travel for them. It's regular
work though so I don't mind

Advert
The Story of Whizz-Bizz How the company was formed
The story is a story of rags to riches, blood, sweat, tears and
sheer determination. Many obstacles were put in my way and
many people said it can’t be done. I think the true beginnings
stem from when I was a shy 16 year old. I responded to an
advert in a local free newspaper, a small box advert saying
are you young gifted and broke? , it was coming up to Xmas
and when I rang to enquire about the job they was very vague
About the position. So I raided my dads very limited tie rack put on my best shirt and
Trousers and found myself sitting in an office of Zenith Windows being pushed into a
Commission only door to door job. My parents prior to the interview had very strong
Views in regards to this type of work and warned me prior to going not to take such a job
On if offered. So I went through the interview and at the end declined their offer of door sale
The walk home was long and I felt Id wasted 2 hours of
my time, feeling disappointed I got in, got changed and
forgot about it, 2 days later I got a call from a nice
sounding lady called Hayley asking about that interview
and if I could get into the office that evening they
have a job in their out bound call centre which paid £3 an
hour plus commission,
with the bonus of being paid before Christmas.

I ran around the house like crazy getting ready, Dads tie
in hand and of I went. When I got there I found
everyone seemed a lot older than me and the noise and
buzz was electric. I still remember that first call I made I
was shaking and very nervous and not very good at all.
Looking back I think I kept my job as they was so short
staffed prior to Christmas.
Fast forward 3 months I won a silver award for professionalism in the field of telemarketing,
and then further down the line received a gold award for professionalism in the field of
telemarketing. Before I knew it I was 18 and running the whole call centre, with 40
canvassers under my supervision.
I was then approached by a friend of mine to work in an inbound call centre at a garage;
the money was better and so were the hours so I jumped at it and stayed for quite some
time. The garage had some issues with some advertising they had been placing in the
local papers and the bad publicity followed with the calls now not coming in as frequent
and the commissions took a hit. Time to leave.
I found myself at an upcoming home improvement firm back
on the phone; coincidently a few of the guys from Zenith
were there and knew me from them days. After 3 days I was
made a team leader and after a week they offered me the
manager’s job in Worthing which I took. 2 weeks in and I
turned them around from getting 20 leads a week to 60+ a
week, they liked that, they liked it a lot. I got a call from the
regional manager explaining that the Portsmouth branch
was having the branch manager removed and call centre
manager would be going too, do I want it?. “YES PLEASE”
Very quickly I became the top marketing manager in the company and everything was
going like a dream, and then the unthinkable they’ve gone bust. I’ll always remember
walking home with all my executive toys under my arm thinking I’ll never get a job that
good
I get in doors with a very concerned looking dad; I said “What’s up?” He said “you’ve had
6 calls from double glazing companies today, what’s happened? “ I explained the situation
and got on with ringing the people back. I took the best offer which was Anglian Home
improvements. I contacted all my best canvassers and took them with me. It was brilliant
first week in we pulled £77,000 in business and the pay was better than Id ever had, every
week my team would get certificates, best in volume leads, best in volume sales etc.
A few years in and it was good.
By now Im in my early 20s and wanted to go travelling, having always loved beaches
that’s what I did. I even worked in Spain for a while selling first page listings for Google,
the money wasn’t great and it was very hard so I found myself back in England, desperate
for work I took a job at British gas knocking doors, it really wasn’t my kind of sale so I started
shopping around for something better.

I see an advert in the job centre for safe style and I thought that would be O.K I knew the
product and it was familiar territory they gave me a driver and a small team of door
knockers.
This is when I literally fell into window cleaning, I was out with 12 other door knockers and
due to being stuck on a door booking someone for 15 minutes I was separated from the
main bulk of the team they all went right and I went left. I knocked on a guys door and did
my pitch, he looked me up and down and said ” Your really good at this , do you want a job
? “ I said “Maybe, what is it?” He replied “give me your number; I’ll call you next week”. We
exchanged numbers and off I went, a week passed and I got a call from him. “See you on
Friday” He said.
He picked me up in the morning, we drove for what seemed like hours until we got to
South London were he handed me a flyer and then and only then told me what the job
was, “you’re looking for customers for my window cleaner friend, it’s a new way of cleaning
windows called water fed pole, it’s going to be massive” he said.
I took a hand full of flyers and knocked the first door I came too, did my improvised pitch
and would you believe it, the customer absolutely bit my hand off. WOW I thought as I ran
across the road to tell him what happened he was shocked and excited with a joyous
expression he said” That’s brilliant I’ve been doing this 8 years and no one’s ever done
that before” Bit of high fiving and back patting and I’m soon on the 2nd house and a 2nd
booking, 2 in a row. That was it I’m hooked at the end of the evening we did a tally up and I
got £420 on my first night.
I didn’t hear much for a couple of weeks so just carried on working at Safe style, then I got
another call seeing if I wanted to do some more knocking for him. This went on for a while,
quite in frequent, more pocket money than anything at this stage. I took a canvasser friend
of mine on a few jobs and could tell that there was something to this window cleaning
canvassing.
After a pretty heavy night drinking me and my canvassing friend on the Saturday morning
were in my front room we looked in our pockets we had £5 between us and 4 cans of
fosters.
I looked at him and said “this isn’t any good we need to make some money, what we going
to do? “
He replied “let’s buy some phone credit, Ill text out loads of cleaners from Google, see if
we can get some canvassing work for ourselves in Portsmouth”
30-50 texts sent and within minutes I’ve set up 2 meetings with cleaners.
We arranged to meet the guys at a café near to where we lived it was late and they was
just closing, just as well as we didn’t even have enough money to get them a cup of tea or
anything. Being local I knew of quite a nice snooker club that had a quiet area round the
back so we took the cleaners in there. Bit of a chat and they agreed to give us a go.
Fantastic.
We arranged to meet another cleaner at the snooker club the following night and again
they agreed to give us a go. Fantastic.
So me and my canvassing friend set to work on getting the first clients work together and
at the end of the week arranged hand over. This is a defining moment for Whizz-Bizz I’m
sat in front of the cleaner and he says. “Right I want the work it looks good, BUT I’m only
giving you half the money now and the other half after I’ve checked the work.” 0

He seemed nice and genuine so I took a gamble. True to his word he paid up no problem
at all and to this day still uses me from time to time. So 2nd client, me and my canvassing
friend met them in the same snooker club and all seemed satisfactory, again we went out
and did the job and again met them in the snooker club. Strange thing happened he said
“Right I want the work it looks good, BUT I'm only giving you half the money now and the
other half after I've checked the work.” As the first guy was good to his word I agreed. You
know what to this day I never did get hold of that guy to get the rest of my money,
absolutely ripped us off. Unfortunately out of the first
5 guys we did work for, 3 ripped us off. Whizz-Bizz was born and the upfront payment was
instigated, no more getting ripped off. By then my canvassing friend had had enough and
decided to seek employment elsewhere. It was actually my canvassing friend that came up
with the name, and it derives from we go to an area whizz around get the bizz and go
home, the lightning bolt is to represent speed.
4 years on as Whizz-Bizz and it’s been a real experience, I ve travelled most of the country
from Portsmouth to Scotland, Pembrokeshire to Ipswich. I've worked with new start ups,
established teams and family firms. Some amazing cleaners have come into my life and
I’ve made some good friends in the process, I’ve knocked thousands of doors and seen
just about everything and I can honestly say I still love what I do, very little surprises me
now.
Many thanks for taking the time to read.
All the best
Mark Nicholson
www.whizzbizzsales.com

Interview
The birth of Window Cleaning Training
How did you get into
window cleaning?
By accident really. I am an ex Tax
Collector by trade but forcibly retired due
to contracting ME. Steve already had an
established window cleaning business
when I met him-. I admit to being totally
under- impressed when I found out what
Steve did for a living- until I saw him run
up a treble ladder and do his thing- it was
like watching a ballet My experience of
office life combined with his skills and
personality lead us to grow the business;
we are a true team in every sense to
where we are now. (Stressed, over
worked, grey, over weight and
permanently skint!) As the industry has
progressed over the years, we have had
to adapt- that’s the bit I love about this jobthe
practical side of the work will not
change- once you learn the technique to
blade or wfp, you are there- it’s the added
extra’s that make the job so diversehealth
and safety, coshh and all the
additional requirements you need for
tenders.
Where are you from ?
I am currently based in Plymouth- I moved
here in 2000. But originally I’m from
Watford in Hertfordshire leaving there aged
17 to move to Cornwall. Steve is from
Plymouth – from the historic Barbican area;
the Mayflower Steps, Union Street and our
ROYAL Marines.
So how was the company
built ?
Window cleaning training Uk Ltd came
about from a conversation we had whilst on
holiday in Egypt last January. it was a cold
day and we were chatting about our future.
Steve has had so many people work with
him over the years who have made
successes of their own business’ from his
training, and we are called upon by other
window cleaners all the time to fix sites or
undertake jobs that they simply can’t do
themselves, that he decided that he would
like to teach window cleaning as a means
to “put back” into the Industry – and a
means to maybe step back a bit and do
something less physical but something that
he enjoys doing.
Last year co-incided with the NEC Cleaning
show so we took a gamble and rented a
pitch next to the window cleaning
competition stand we spent 3 days gauging
the publics reaction and interest to training,
The reaction and interest was good so we
found suitable premises in Plymouth,
applied for a government funded start up
loan through Outset Reach and started the
new business with £15k, no overdraft and a
lot of crossing fingers.
I had visions of being accredited by now
with the FWC and of being an NVQ
Assessor with Plymouth City College;
unfortunately ill health, computer issues
and the fact that the shop has taken up a
lot of my time has meant that I haven’t
been able to move forward with this – we
are however part of the Asset Skills Council
and are registered with the government as
training providers.

How long has the training
centre been running
We opened in August 2013 and to-date
have trained 3 people- 2 guys and a
wonderful lady in traditional and water fed
pole cleaning. Three more are booked in
for May.
What training do you provide
Classes we teach are; Traditional
Techniques, Water Fed Pole and Window
cleaning at height with IPAF- I have links to
a large abseiling training provider for
those interested in doing Abseiling. The
courses are built by Steve and Myself And
incorporate Practical and Theory.
Each trainee gets an inch thick folder
containing tips and guides on a whole
range
of topics from ideas on how to advertise
and market themselves, the history of the
water
fed pole, health and safety, how to write a
tender and quotation, to examples of
Coshh, risk and method statements,
manual handling and riddor.
Who is carry out the training ?
Could you please tell us
more about trainers?
At height with IPaf is yet to be done. We are
lucky in Plymouth that we have a IPAF
training centre LTC 87 who also hire out
machines; we are probably one of their best
customers- I have arranged for this
company to teach our trainee’s IPAF and
then allow us to take them at the same site
to teach them the practicalities of window
cleaning at height – totally different to just
driving a bit of kit. We will then back at our
centre, go through
the paperwork side of the training- it is
quite intensive. we are however part of the
Asset Skills Council and are registered with
the government as training providers.
How long are the course and
what are the cost ?
Traditional is a one day course and is
£150 pp
Water Fed Pole is a long day and is
£175 pp
IPAF/ At Height is a two day course and is
£330 pp
to include the IPAF certification
Traditional and Water fed Pole training is all
done on real buildings and includes setting
up a system, managing and cleaning which
is all doe by Steve.
Paper works and the business side of the
training is done by myself
Need photos to finish

Interview
Jorden the man behind OKGO
Prior to becoming a window cleaner I served an
apprenticeship in the passenger lift industry eventually
becoming Technical Manager with responsibilities including
project management and design during which time I had
invented a number tools to assist installation.
At the start of the recession in 2008 I left and started Waterworks
Window Cleaning
We'd focused on commercial
contracts only, until one day we found a
window cleaners book lying at the side of
the road. After looking through the book in
order to try and trace its owner, it became
evident that there is some serious money
to be made in the domestic market. The
book was all traditional worth 80k per
annum and once we'd returned the book
we were surprised to find the whole round
being serviced by one very hard working
man with ladders on his shoulder. In
addition, it made sense to try and spread
our income around since our market was
shrinking
Therefore, in some ways we were
unique. A commercial only window
cleaning company attempting to move into
the domestic market and attempting to
transfer our commercial values.
So how do you effectively apply pure
water to the domestic market which
requires 60+ stops in a single day? (2
man team)
Trolley? External reels and faucets?
sliding rack? Personally my barrier while
working alone was 20 -25 houses, not
because id ran out of energy but because
I was mentally drained and physically
smashed to pieces. Also, how can a
company which is completely straight with
the tax man i.e. PAYE, VAT, Corporation
Tax, accounting fees compete with
traditional cleaners working under the
radar?
OKGO therefore, like all of the best
inventions was born out of necessity. We
needed to be more efficient, we needed
the vans to be secure while working, we
needed to reduce fatigue and injury and
we really wanted to get rid of the
disgusting cloths used to spool the hose
onto the reel (ill say no more on that but if
your cleaning houses you'll know what i'm
getting at)
I became obsessed with it and for months
I was battling with each individual problem
that the concept presented and there
were an unbelievable amount of
unbelievably difficult problems to
overcome even though the finished
product looks simple.
What is OKGO?
Please Watch the video below as Its
difficult to describe, you have to feel it in
real life but here goes!

Its a patented frame which raises standard
window cleaning reels (internally
mounted) to a comfortable operating
height while simultaneously extending the
spindle through the van wall, extending
the spooling rod through the van wall,
diverting the hose through the frame and
onto the floor pan and providing a method
to lock the hose.
It comes with a patented 3 point pulley
system design to fit most commercial
vans which means the hose can be
diverted through the floor pan and onto
the any area of the sill seamlessly.
Poles are mounted externally but can be
stowed through a side sliding door or
removed altogether. On our system the
poles are permanently attached to the
hose therefore eliminating hose
connectors which significantly reduces
snags. Snags can seriously damage
mental health ;-) Some people find it
strange but I want to eliminate problems
without exception.
On the final spooling stroke tension is
maintained on the hose with the winding
handle. The spooling rod is then used to
lock the hose tightly therefore pulling poles
tightly in a downward direction against the
van during transit. Together with the brush
hook at the top of the vehicle and the rubber
van protector the system works perfectly.
The system is completely unique in the
world and offers the following benefits:
Van locked
Super efficient deployment and stowing
No hand spooling
No heavy lifting
No repositioning reels (OKGO has
working radius 180 degrees)
Perfectly dry van
No waiting for water to fill hose
Protects your reels so that they last
forever in perfect condition
No bending to wind in reels
No smashing knuckles on the floor
No smashing fingers on hose connectors
No manky cloths (Toxicariosis)
No reels on pedestrian walkway
I simply jump out, lock van, grab pole
without ever touching the hose or opening
any van doors.
The cost of the product will be circa £1000
plus VAT for a single unit and full self
installation package although this has not
been finalised and may vary depending on
tooling. I see it like this... if you're a self
employed engineer cutting 50 lengths of
steel every day with a hacksaw, does it
not make sense to eventually get round to
buying an auto feed band saw at £1000
plus VAT? Your family would thank you at
the very least.
The product rugged... and I mean old
fashioned British rugged. We therefore
are proposing a lifetime guarantee on its
construction for peace of mind.

Interview
PROGUTTER - from invention to production
In September 2011 I started a property
maintenance company after being made
redundant from full time employment.
Shortly after I was given a job of clearing a section of guttering over a conservatory
which ran the full width of the property, the ladder access was limited to one location.
After asking a friend who
is a professional window
cleaner and searching the
internet and shops I was
unable to find a gutter
cleaning tool that would
make the job possible. I
decided to improvise and
make my own tool that
helped me do the job.
After I took on more
similar jobs the tool
evolved into different
shapes for different gutter
styles.
At first the tool was being
attached to the telescopic
pole with nuts and bolts to
keep it in place. To make
the usage of the tool even
easier I designed a tool
including a universal
thread enabling the tool to
be screwed directly onto
most standard telescopic
poles.
My friend (the
professional window
cleaner) was very
impressed and soon
asked me to make him the
same tools to make his
gutter cleaning jobs
easier. I was often
stopped and asked by
window cleaners and the
public about the tool I was
using, the tools seemed to
be of great interest.
It took many months of
trying different shapes
with different makes of
guttering and finding out
what worked the best. I
found trying to cater for
every gutter/tile
installation was very
hard as this varies so
much. My main goal
was for the tool to fit
under roof tiles, miss the
gutter securing clips, fit
perfectly into each style
of guttering and to
create a tool that can be
fitted for left or right
hand application
enabling to clear many
meters of gutter from
one ladder position.
Once I was happy with
the 4 shapes I started
selling PRO-G1
attachments.
For an easy storage
solution for the
professional market I
produced a hard
wearing box set with
foam inserts.
PRO-G1 was selling very
well and the feedback we
had from our customers
was absolutely amazing.
Thanks to the people who
supported me and bought
PRO-G1 attachments I
saw there was a need for
a simple tool that would
help with cleaning gutters.
My next goal was to make
the tools stronger and
more durable so I set to
work on the PRO-G2
range which had an
additional aluminium plate
on one side and an
aluminium thread giving
the tool that extra
strength.

The PRO-G2 range sold so well, I decided to create our own website. The aim after
that was to give customers the full information and support on our products. Due to
the support of our great customers who purchased PRO-G2, these were soon sold
out.
After the success of PRO-G2 I had a new range professionally designed. The aim
was for a new, stronger, lighter, more durable and even better range then our previous
2 ranges. Once we were happy with the designs we tested repeatedly for the strength
and durability of the tools making sure this range will be our best yet.
In October 2013 we were very proud to present to the market the Professional range
tools. They have been a great success so far. We get amazing feedback from our
professional customers and from homeowners alike.
Window cleaner Richard franklin who is cycling from Bristol
to the show approx. 70 miles Must Be Mad
My bike cost £2700
plus the extra, Which
I have four bike for
different things,
I cycles roughly 150+
miles a week, also
run 3 times a week
and swim 2-3 times a
week
Should take between
3 and 4 hours steady
riding with a coffee
and cake stop a must
to all cyclist .
been cleaning
Windows for
8years and I am a
very young 45 lol
we started a local cycle back in May and
have over 140members it called salt and
sham cycle club

Interview
Aquafed
I started Aquafed
in 2010 it started
as a window
cleaning, Gutter
cleaning, and
pressure washing
company.
I started selling the gutter
vacuum systems in 2011
on a
small scale alongside the
window cleaning round, the
sales of the systems
progressed and in march
2012 I sold my round and
moved to Norfolk so rather
than start up a new round
from scratch I decided to
concentrate on the gutter
cleaning and pressure
washing side of the
business along with the
online sales, as time went
on I slowly started to do
less and less of the
cleaning side and focus my
time on the sales instead,
now I do very few gutter
cleans and even less
pressure washing but i still
like to do a few to keep my
hand in the trade.
What I did before Aquafed
Prior to this I was a site manager for Skanska in
there civil engineering department overseeing a
number of construction sites my main work was
London underground as I worked my through all
of there in house qualifications to a high position
unfortunately working your way up in an
environment where the qualifications are only
valid for the one employer (ie London
underground) has its down side as I found out as
when there was redundancy’s the qualifications I
held are only valid for works on the underground
and all had expiry dates.
During my time as a site manager I oversaw
some very high profile works including the 7/7
bombings, I was assisting the police with removal
of body parts and evidence from the tunnel at
Edgware road station, also setting up the ground
works for the crane to lift the carriage from the
tracks, erecting hording to keep the press out,
New this year
I am going to be bringing out an internal cleaning
kit this year that will be used with the gutter
cleaning poles the kit will have various tools for all
your internal cleaning, I have it made and it has
been on trial in walkers crisps and have received
some great feedback.

Interview
I started window cleaning when if was 15 and still in
school as a weekend job with my next door neighbour.
He had a small local window cleaning round we used to
just walk around with our ladders knocking on doors
and doing job's that were booked in on a Saturday &
Sunday.. This got me hocked straight away as I loved
being out and about meeting new people / customers
and loved working out in the sun ( When it was out).
When i left school my sister got me a job with a
cleaning company she worked for and that
covered all types of cleaning job's from windows
to office cleaning floor stripping and so on... I
worked there for 3 years and built up a good
friendship with the window cleaner there too.. I
then got asked by him when he left there if I would
join him in the new company he had just joined
doing builders cleans.
LEE Martin Blade Right
Mainly windows on newly built
housing estates and huge work
units which I really enjoyed as we
covered everything from dead
weighting, abseiling and cherry
picking work on the bigger buildings
and so on.. I really enjoyed it as
every day was different and we
never knew what we would come
across until we were on site...
I then took a couple of years out as i got
a job working for a drain cleaning
company ( surely for the money as it
was a well paid job) Still cleaning thou
and loved the work the only thing that
did me in was the hours as after the first
couple of months I ended up working 65
to 80 hour weeks and was on call every
weekend as i became a rig manger so
was down to me to get all the jetting
jobs book in and sorted out.. It just
became to much.. then while out playing
pool one night i bumped in to the guy I
was working with in my first cleaning job
and he started to tell me all about the
new window cleaning company he was
working for so on the off chance i ask
him if there was any jobs going and a
week later i got a call asking if i wanted
a interview with his new boss and that
he had put in a good word for me as
worked we me in the past.. I had to
work my magic in the interview thou as
the new boss wanted to pay me
peanuts and as i was in such a highly
paid job it was a hard diction to make
but after some talking we came to a
arrangement and the job was mine..
That was me a happy man as was working
Monday to Friday only and back to doing
normal window cleaning this went on for a fair
few months and everything was good.. The
boss of the company wanted to expand and
set him self a mission to triple the size of his
window cleaning business and started buying
out other peoples rounds and business, new
vans all kitted out, radio advertising the lot and
went mad at it.. He brought a window cleaning
business called Pioneer Window Cleaning that
came with everything also including two lad's
that had worked the round for a few years..
They were on minimum wag as was getting
paid peanuts compared to me and my work
partner.. Then boom we got called in the the
office on a Friday. We knew something was up
as it was written all over his face.. He then
started to inform us that he had gone to big too
quickly and needed to cut down on work and
wages as he had spent out far to much money
too quickly then the penny dropped he was
letting me and my work partner go as he could
not afford to pay us what we wanted as the
other two lads that came with pioneer were
getting paid half the price then what we were..
As you can probably tell this didnt go down to
well with us as we had been there from the
start and helped him grow from hardly nothing