CHAPTER 8 - UJDigispace Home

APPENDIX V
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEWS WITH PARTICIPANTS
1. TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH
ANTOINETTE
INTERVIEWER: Okay Antoinette,
eers dankie vir jou tyd. Soos ek vir jou verduidelik het, die studie
Gaan om "Kleurling" vroue, "sogenaamde Kleurling" vroue wat 'n "abusive marriage" verlaat het. Wat ek
basies wil weet is
hoe het jy dit ervaar om te kan loop.
ANTOINETTE:
Man, dit was baie moeilik om uit dit uit te kan kom. Dit verg baie krag, want jy is
bevrees,
en uh daar's uh, op daai omblik voel jy daar's niemand om jou
nie. So dit is nie eintlik maklik om
uit dit
te kom nie.
INTERVIEWER:
So dis 'n gevoel van alleen wees.
INTERVIEWER: Jy is alleenig,
jy voel jy is in 'n gat in en daar's niemand om jou eintlik nie. En ek wil
vir jou
sê, baie mense bly in dit in vir die sake van die kinders, en vir die sake van hulle het no where om na
toe te gaan nie, en uh hulle werk nie, dit is eintlik baie groot. Dit is
eintlik die grootste probleme wat die
vrouens mee sit. En meeste al vir die sake van die kinders. Hulle voel
as hulle uit die huwelik uit stap, "Wat
van die kinders, wie gaan vir hulle omsien?" Niemand gaan vir hulle 'n bly plek gee met soveel kinders
nie (silence).
En toe ek uit die huwelik wou uit stap nê, toe het ek mos nou, ek het vier kinders, you know, en vir my
was
dit so moeilik, ek het nie 'n ma hier nie, ek het nie 'n pa hier nie, ek is op my eie, ek is so jonk, ek is
een-en
twintig-en-'n- half, ek was nog nie twee-en twintig nie, baie jonk getrou, ek was omtrent
sewentien.
En uh met die klomp kinders, wie gaan vir my plek gee? (Speech very rapid.)
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
ANTOINETTE:
Maar, soos ek nou tussen mense beweeg het en gesien het hoe hulle lewe en, dan vra ek
vir myself: "maar is dit werd om in so 'n huwelik dan te sit?"
En ek ontmoet een ou vrou eendag, en sy sê vir my : "My kind, kyk in die spieël in en kyk net watter,
uh,
uh, mooi
mens is jy. Jy het nie nodig dat iemand jou so moet kavoert nie." En… ag toe dink ek is
ook maar
net een van daai praaitjies, jy weet mense
like mos ook maar dinge praat en so, my auntie het vir my gesê:
"Jy sal so sit dat iemand vir jou so karniffel.
Dan sê ek: " Ag, hy sal verander."
INTERVIEWER:
So jou famielie het jou eintlik encourage om uit te kom.
ANTOINETTE:
Uit te kom, ja, want hulle was altyd daar. Hulle het my gesien. Maar hulle het nou nie vir
my geldelik gehelp nie of kan vir my 'n dak gee vir my kinders nie. Maar omdat hulle gesien het hoe die
man
my hanteer. Hy het my sommer in my gesig getrek, gesleep in die straat in. Hy het my geskop, hy het
my so lelik gevloek voor my kinders, vir my kinders gesê my kinders is honger honde en die kos
weggesteek. En as hy geld het dan gaan hy na ander vrouens toe. As hy nou seker nie regekom het
by daai
ander vroues
nie, nê, dan moet ek seker wees ek gaan 'n pakslae kry vanaand. Maar ek het ook nie geweet
nie hoekom kry ek altyd 'n pakslae nie. Toe't ek 'n vriendin gehad wat langs my gesit het, uh waar
ek
gewerk het en uh, sy het altyd vir my gesê : " Jy moet jou man los, jy kan nie laat die man vir jou
so takel
nie,"
hy het my hare uit my kop uit getrek, hoor. En dan is my oë net so blou.
1

INTERVIEWER: Dit was erg huh?
ANTOINETTE: Dit was baie erg gewees. Ek het
tot… deur depressie het ek gebrand. Ek het nie geweet
ek het eers gebrand nie- ek sal na daai terug kom by jou. Maar toe sê ek vir die een vrou die een dag:" Ek
weet
nie ek… ek kan dit nie meer hou nie, my arme kinders is.. is … hulle is so vreesbevange. En die een
seun
het vir my gesê: "Mammie, jy bly sê jy gaan die man los en jy bly hom terug vat. Kyk wat maak hy
…saam
met jou. En een aand sit my seun by die trappe toe is Rashid omtrent elf jaar, uh ja, hy was elf. Hy
sê vir
my: " Ek gaan nie in die huis in kom nie Mammie," ek sê: " Ek praat met jou". Ek sê "Rashid as jy
nie inkom nie dan weet jy dis weer ek wat gaan pak kry.(Silence).
En hy vat die laaste geld, ek onhou daai aand vat hy die laaste geld hy sê hy gaan nou gaan dobbel met die
vyftig
rand. Dit het baie moeilik gegaan. En uh, ek sê toe vir die vrou die volgend oggend,
sy sê toe vir my:
"Jy beter sien dat jy die man los want hy gaan vir jou dood maak". Maar ek het nie verstaan hoekom sê sy
dit vir my nie. Toe het sy 'n verhouding met hom aangehad.
INTERVIEWER:
Sjoe, 'n vriendin van jou?
ANTOI NETTE: Ja is 'n vriendin van my. En sy het pregnant geraak en uh na alles toe is dit weer een in
my straat in wat hy mee uit gegaan het. As hy baklei met hulle,
dan moet ek weet ek gaan pak kry. Maar
ek het
nooit geweet waarom gaan die bakleiry nie. You know,
ek het al gevra vir hom, as ons vrede is in
die huis in: "Wat is dit, wat doen ek verkeerd, sê vir my", hy sê "Nee daar's niks wat jy verkeerd doen nie.
Wat
meen jy?" As ek miskien loving wil wees met hom, dan vra hy vir my kom ek van my hoer-manne af.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit klink of dit baie confusing was vir jou.
ANTOINETTE:
Dit was so confusing gewees dat ek… ek het dit nie verstaan nie. Ek… ek het nie geweet
eintlik
wat beteken abuse nie, en ek het ook nie geweet wat beteken sexual abuse nie, you know. Ek het al
gevra: " Hoekom wil jy elke aand met my slaap, wat is dit?" En toe sê hy : "Het
jy dan nie geweet ek het
met
jou getrou net om seks met jou te hê nie?", you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Dis seer woorde.
ANTOINETTE:
En…en vir my ek het die heeltyd dan huil ek net so vir drie dae aan een: "Maar hoe kan
die man dit vir my sê?" Daar's partykeer nê as ek weier dan rek hy my bene
oop, skeer my klere van my af,
you know,
en hy gebruik sulke vulgar woorde. Hy … hy kon net nie omgee
nie, wie was in die rondte
gewees nie. Hy het gaan staan in die middel van die
straat dan vloek hy vir my, maar hy het ook altyd vir
my gesê: "Ek gaan jou dood maak en die is nie jou jou
huis nie". Ek het nooit geweet hy het my rêrig
getrou vir materiaale dinge nie. En ek het dit nie verstaan nie!, you know. Maar soos tyd aangaan raak jy
mos
groter en jy deel met baie dinge en jy deel met baie verskillende mense, en toe sê ek vir myself, toe ek
een-en-twintig
maak, toe bid ek een oggend toe sê ek "Here ek wil uit hierdie huwelik kom, ek kan nie
meer
nie."
INTERVIEWER:
Toe is jy al hoe lank getroud?
ANTOINETTE:
Toe is ek al sewe jaar… (softly counting to herself) En uh maar dit was so moeilik, en
ek het nie geweet nie, ek het gaan werk. As ek in die oggend, ek het 'n werk gekry, as ek van die werk af
kom,
dan toe ek uit die huis uit stap, dan moes ek in die gras in geduik het. Hy was in sy ma se kombi
gewees
en ek uh is was vol modder en ek was… jy weet ek was so bang vir hom gewees
INTERVIEWER:
Altyd vreesbevange.
ANTOINETTE: Ja, en dan sê ek "Nee man, nou moet ek hierdie werk, ek…ek kan nie werk nie. "Ek kan
nie kosentreer op die werk, ek kan nie tussen mense is nie, ek…ek is bang vir mense. Ek het nie geweet wat
om vir hulle te sê nie, want ek het soos 'n stupid gevoel. Want die mense het gesê: "Jy wil dan nie hoor nie.
Jy hou daarvan". Maar hulle het nie verstaan nie. Hulle het nie verstaan hoe ek voel nie. Ek kon net nie
…ook
deel met sekere mense nie. En eendag nê het ek water opgesit, en by my sister se huis was daar mos
nie ligte en electricity gewees nie, en ek sit die uh gasbottel aan met 'n pot water. Die kinders is toe weg
2

skool toe. Maar toe ek uh… ek weet nie wat het gebeur, ek het my gestaan en vererg omdat ek nou op 'n
gasbottel
moet water sit en ek het 'n huis daar, waar daar letric is, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Jy mis jou gemak.
ANTOINETTE: Ja, hy het my uit daai omstandighede,
het hy my uit gedryf …uit my uh…uh
gerieflikheid
vir my kinders. Hy't my daar uit getrek, you know. En ek het net daar omgekantel. En ek het seker vir meer
as paar ure daar gelê, want dit was past seven toe ek wil gaan was en uh half-past- two toe kom kry ek my
ek lê in die kombuis op die vloer en my gesig is taai, ek het 'n oop merk teen my kop. Ek kyk my been, my
been
voel seer, toe het ek lelik gebrand, ek het 'n baie lelik merk, twee merke op altwee kante van my een
been
en my dy been bo. En uh toe is ek weer uit. En toe skrik ek weer wakker toe die kinders kom. Toe
kruip
ek uit. En uh ek het in die hospital het ek regtig waar myself bykom toe kom kry ek ek lê in die
hospital.
En die dokter wou nie glo ek het sò gebrand. Toe sê ek: "Nee, ek het so gebrand, ek kan onthou ek
het kwaad geraak.
INTERVIEWER:
Deur net aan dit te dink?
ANTOINETTE: Deur net
aan dit te dink. Hy kan dit doen. Hy, hy … wat hy aan my kinders doen, you
know. My, die omstandighede van my kinders het so agteruit
gegaan, huLle skool werk, want hulle was so
confused, sekere dinge… Weet hulle kon, hulle kon nie verstaan nie "maar wat gaan aan nie", you know.
Ek kon
dit ook nie verstaan nie, ( laughs) want vir my was alles blur gewees, you know. En uh, maar soos
ek sê, ek belowe jou soos tyd gaan… Ek het gebid een oggend, vir die Here gevra, toe sê ek vir Hom: " Ek
glo nie ek deserve, die lewe wat ek nou lewe nie, want geen man is dit werd nie". Maar soos ek vir jou sê
dit verg tyd…dit verg so tyd en krag, because jy uit vrees uit sit jy in daai huwelik.
INTERVIEWER:
Jy is altyd bevrees.
ANTOINETTE:
Dit vrees jou want jy is bang die man gaan jou dood maak, want hy het hoeveel keer het
hy al vir my gedreig en hy het my al so lelik aangerand.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy het hom geglo.
ANTOINETTE:
Ek het hom geglo, dinge sal okay is, you know. Ek het al beginne glo: "Kyk hy slaan
my omdat hy lief is vir my. En as hy my nie gaan slaan nie dan is hy nie meer lief vir my nie." Ek het sulke
dinge
beginne glo.
IN TERVIEWER: Om te probeer sin maak uit die…
ANTOINETTE:
…Exactly, because ek het al geglo, dit was nou klaar al 'n gewoonte.
INTERVIEWER:
Is deel van die huwelik.
ANTOINETTE: Is 'n deel van die huwelik, was dit toe. En uh ek sê toe, toe vir hulle ek kan nie, ek kan
nie. Ja en uh ek het ook geprobeer om na kerke toe te gaan, ek het ook
probeer om groot mense in
te kry, maar dit het nie vir hom saak gemaak nie. Ek onthou een keer
toe gaan ek uh na FAMSA toe by
House
of Mercy. Sister Therisa was daai jare daar. En uh dit was die tyd toe ek uit die hospital uit kom,
wa t my been so gebrand het. En ek sê toe vir haar ek het uh huweliks probleme, en ek sê toe vir hom hulle
wil vir hom sien daar binne. Hy sê:"I haven't got blady time
to talk to nobody. " En sy sê toe vit hom:
"Well, I need five minutes of your time." Hy sê" I haven't
got five minutes of my time for you."En uh toe
vertel sy hom, soos hulle nou praat, sê sy vir hom: "Wel nou sien ek regtig waar jy is 'n probleem, jy is nie
bereid
om te werk aan jou huwelik nie". Maar nog het dit nie vir my ingedring nie!, you know. Vir my het
dit uh beteken " Kyk hierso, nee man, miskien is daar iets fout met my.
INTERVIEWER:
En jy begin jouself question.
3

ANTOINETTE: Exactly. En…en ek het regtig waar minderwaardig beginne voel.
"Hoe kan ek dan die man blame?" You know. Maar soos ek vir jou sê tussen mense beweeg en dan dan
sien jy dinge baie differently. En hoe mense uit die huwelike uit te kom. Ek dink toe vir myself: "Hier moet
ek 'n
lyn terk."En ek het besluit, ek het met my kinders gepraat, toe praat ek met hulle, toe sê ek vir hulle
dit is wat ek nou gaan doen, ons is nou uit die huis uit en ek gaan skei. Maar ek kan, dit kan 'n moontlikheid
is dat
ek alles gaan verloor. Hy't my goedte gebrand, hy't my couche gebrand, hy't al die ander goedte
verkoop.
Hy't uh vir my gesê: "Jy sal nie weer in die huis in kom nie". Maar ek het so gebid en vir die Here
gevra
ek weet ek sal terug kom in die huis in. En uh soos tyd gaan het ek terug getrek in die huis, maar dit
het so moeilik gegaan want hy't my so gethreaten. En hy't aan daai deure en daai vensters het hy kom kap.
En ek het elke dag het ek agter slot en grendel het ek gebly.
INTERVIEWER:
So nog in vrees.
ANTOINETTE: Nog in vrees. Maar ek het gesê:
"Ek, ek kan nie die deure oop maak nie, want as ek
nou gaan trug trek dan gaan erger dinge nog met
my gebeur. Miskien kan ek sonder oё sit, miskien kan ek
sonder bene sit, want hy het my al reeds al so lelik aangerand, en ek kan nie nou trug trek nie, want
anderste
gaan ek my kinders verloor by die einde van die dag, of my kinders gaan sonder 'n ma sit. So wat
het ek toe besluit is uh, ek staan op my woord, maar dit het moeilik gegaan want daar is nou nie meer kos in
die huis vir die kinders nie, you know. En ek sê toe vir myself: " Man ek sal moet iets doen, ek moet maar
mense
gaan join en uh sien wat ek vir myself kan doen, want as ek hier bly lê dan gaan ek niks in die huis
in kry
nie. Want niemand sal net kom en sê hier's 'n stukkie brood vir jou kinders nie. Maar ek sal nou
definitief
moet ek maar nou 'n effort maak om iets te doen. En uh, ek het toe vir Mrs Bosman hulle
ontmoet
en hulle het begin om die organisasie te stig wat genoem is die Crisis Centre. En uh, dit het so moeilik
gegaan.
En die mense het vir my gesê: " Maar hoe kan jy die werk doen, want, daar kry jy nie eers 'n
salaris
nie?" Toe sê ek: "At least gaan my kinders 'n stukkie brood het om te eet, you know, en miskien
sal ek iets kan beteken vir die mense daar buite".
INTERVIEWER:
Dit was vir jou belangrik gewees?
ANTOINETTE:
Dit was vir my belangrik gewees. En uh, ek het begin by Crisis Centre, en uh die mense
het na my toe gekom. Dit was vir my baie maklik om met hulle te werk want ek het verstaan waarvan hulle
pra at.
My, my dogter het 'n, 'n kind gekry toe's sy vyftien jaar oud en toe verstaan, ek as ouer, hoe dit voel.
My seuns het beginne wegloop en toe verstaan ek as sulke tipe ouers na my toe kom met probleme van
seuns. My seun het beginne dagga rook, ek het verstaan as sulke ouers
na my toe kom, hoe dit voel.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy kon jou ervaaring gebruik het?
ANTOINETTE:
Ek kon, ek gebruik dit vir die volgende persoon, en uh, baie van hulle het met my gepraat
van van hoe was hulle seksueel afgerem van hul mans af. Ek kon saam met die vrouens praat, ek kon vir
hulle
sê hoe het ek daar uit gekom en dit is nie reg nie, you know. Baie het vir my gesê hulle voel uh, uh as
die man hulle nie slaan nie dan is hy nie lief vir hulle nie. Ek kon saam met hulle praat, because ek het
dieselfde gevoel, you know, en hoe ek daar uit gekom het. Ek het vir hulle verduidelik : "Jy moet maar net
'n lyn trek en jy moet maar net voorentoe gaan, want as jy daar bly lê, dan
gaan niemand niks vir jou
beteken nie. Want dit het so aangegaan, dit was omtrent sestien, agtien jaar het dit maar so aangegaan, you
know.
En uh ek is nou op die oomblik, vier jaar is ek geskei en daai selfde man van my, hy kom na Crisis
Centre
toe met sy probleme en met sy girlfriend se probleme, en met sy kinders se probleme wat hy het,
en uh ek is niemand by die einde van die dag nie en hy is iemand. Ek moet die gevoel wat hy gedoen het
aan my… ek het dit uitgewis, deur te gaan vir counselling en eers self aan my te werk , voor ek vir iemand
kon counsel. Jy kan nie!, die werk doen nie as dit nie gedeel was met jou nie. En uh, dit is eintlik die
moeilike
part van als, because jy word opgelei want daai vyande van jou daar buitekant gaan ook nog na
jou toe kom. Wat gaan jy maak? Gaan jy hulle verstoot?, Gaan jy jou gevoelens een kant toe kan stoot?
Wat
gaan jy maak? En dit is, ek dink dit is die moeilikste part. Dit is eintlik 'n test, 'n trial wat jy moet deur
gaan
om dan met daai persoon te werk wat jou so lelik aangerand het.
INTERVIEWER:
En kon jy dit doen Antoinette?
4

ANTOINETTE: Ek kon dit maklik doen! Because why ek het deur counselling gegaan, ek het deur mense
beweeg,
en uh dit was toe maklik vir my. Maar dit het tyd gevat, dit het tyd gevat, so… Maar die kinders
by die einde van die dag het 'n groot knou weer gehad. Dit is hoekom baie ouers voel hulle moet in die
huwelik
in bly, deur die kinders… hulle vat die verkeerde rigting, hulle wil nie weer skool toe gaan nie,
hulle
skoolwerk gaan agteruit en hulle verstaan hulle self nie by die einde van die dag nie.
INTERVIEWER:
So hoe het jy self gemaak met jou kinders?
AN TOINETTE: Met my kinders het ook ingetree vir counselling. Hulle is nou nie 'n honderd persent soos
uh ek hulle graag wil hê nie, maar die ergste wat hulle deur gemaak het, het oor
gewaai. Hulle verstaan
sekere
dinge, en deur uitgaan om hulp te gaan kry. Jy moet uitgaan, jy kan nie daar bly lê nie, want as jy
bly lê dan gaan daar erger dinge gebeur. En dit uh, ek wil vir jou sê, dit is baie moeilik, you know, om oor
dit te kom.
INTERVIEWER:
Maar jy het?
ANT OINETTE: Ek het oor dit gekom. Ek voel goed. Ek voel goed om mense te kan help. En uh ongeag
of ek 'n voluntary werker is, ek is 'n vrywillige
werker, ek is vier-en twintig uur is ek op stand- by, in die
oggend begin ek half- past eight to four o'clock
in die middag in, en uh ek geniet dit so, because as ek een
goeie
ding gedoen het vir die dag, al gee ek net vir iemand 'n snytjie brood en al hug ek iemand om vir daai
iemand
te sê :"Jy is special and the Lord loves you"- that's very important, because out there kan jy so baie
beteken
vir baise mense van ons wat voel net om met iemand te kan praat. Vir my in die verlede in was
daar,
daar was niemand vir my nie. So dit is hoekom ek daar wil wees, ek weet ek sal nie almal kan help
nie. Maar just because to be there, just to let them know.
INTERVIEWER:
So wat was jou oplossing toe. Daar was niemand om mee te praat nie. Wat het jy
gedoen?
ANTOINETTE: Uh, wat ek gedoen het, ek het beginne lees, ek het het beginne met voluntary werk, you
kno w en uh ek het na mense toe gegaan wat uit huwelike uit kom, maar hulle kon nie eintlik vir my 'n goeie
antwoord
gee nie. Ek het maar self besluit: "Dit baat nie ek gaan na ander mense toe nie, ek moet uitkom.
INTERVIEWER:
Sê vir my van die antwoord wat jy gesoek het.
ANTOINETTE:
Uh die antwoord wat ek gesoek het, was uh ek kan nie vir jou verduidelik nie, was so
moeilik.
Dit was so moeilik. Die antwoorde was uh: "As ek uit kom, sou ek miskien lewendig daar uit
kom?
As ek daar uit kom, sou dit vir my
'n beter mens gemaak het? Wat sou ek vir my kinders kan
beteken?" Maar omdat ek aangehou het en nie opgegee het nie, het dit vir my baie beteken aan die einde
van die dag . Daar's so baie dinge wat ek, jy weet dit kom eintlik stuk stuk by my dis
wat ek kan onthou,
want baie dinge is al klaar ek het ek kan nie weer baie dinge onthou nie, hoe ek oor
dit gekom het. Maar die
belangrikste van alles is, ek het nie daar bly lê nie, dit het regtig waar krag gevat om daar uit te kom, maar
ek het uit gekom, baie moeilik, dit het… baie moeilik het ek daar uit gekom. Ek het gevoel soos ek is 'n
stupid
en ek is nou alleen, en ek het nie weer 'n man by my nie, en almal het nou daai wat hulle sê ek is die
slegte
een. Baie vrouens moet een ding onthou: "As jy uit 'n huwelik uit stap dan gaan daar nie goeie dinge
gesê
word van jou nie".
INTERVIEWER:
Dis interesant, ek meen daar was ander mense wat jou encourage het om uit te kom,
maar
toe jy uit kom…
ANTOINETTE:
Ja! As jy uit kom dan gaan daar baie mense is wat negatiewe dinge van jou te sê het, you
know. Want dan uh, uh dan sê hulle nie die man was sleg nie, dan gaan hulle sê jy was sleg. Om dan in
jouself
te kan bewys, nie die mense te kan bewys nie, you have to get up there and do something for
yourself,
you know, and your children.
Want as jy aan jouself begin ….(silence).
5
Comment [HK1]:

INTERVIEWER: …Jy moet by jouself begin.
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, jy moet by jouself begin, because
why jy kan nie iets doen omdat jy uh die
mense
wil please nie, aan die einde van die dag gaan mense maar nog altyd iets hê om te sê. Baie lelike
dinge
het om van jou te sê, maar om goed te voel moet jy by jouself begin. You have to pick up the pieces
somehow.
Dis amper soos puzzles, ongeag wie sê wat, you know, then you have to start from there. Because
sometimes
is daar een puzzle wat jy nie weet waar hy in fit nie en dit gaan baie tyd vat om daai puzzle dan
by die regte plek in te sit . En daai leemte sal daar… en die ander ding is nê al uit weg nê is maar net om
die
toevlug
na die Here toe te vat, because sometimes people is going to give you crisis but you have to give
them Christ by the end of the day, want jy kan niks doen sonder Hom nie.
INTERVIEWER:
Jou geloof was baie belangrik vir jou.
ANTOINETTE: Dit was baie belangrik vir my en uh ek is ek kan net al die eer en die lof en die prys met
die Here toe dien is al, want as dit nie deur Hom was nie nê dan wil ek vir jou
sê sou ek nie daar uit gekom
het ni e. So jy kan maar vergeet. Jy kan alles doen, ongeag watter religion jy behoort, you know, as jy nie
jou toevlug na die Here toe neem nie, jy kan maar maak wat jy wil, jy sal nie daar kan uit kom nie, want
baie dinge gaan jy nog aan vasklou en Hy kom en hy was alles weg en die fokus is vir die toekoms en vir
jou kinders.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy voel, dis belangrik om sekere dinge weg te was om aan te gaan.
ANTOINETTE:
Jy
moet aangaan. There's no way, maar jy kan dit ook nie net weg was nie en begrawe
nie. You
have to deal
with it, sien jy? Dit is hoekom jy na counselling toe gaan, inner healing, jy, jy moet
dit kry- jy kan nie by-pass dit nie, because its like a generation of genaration, dis amper soos iets wat van
daai
jare
af kom, because as jy mooi kom kry, jou oumagrootjie het miskien deur dieselfde ding gegaan.
Jy's
like, jy's attractive to abusive men, you know. Dit is hoekom ons vrouens baie versigtig moet wees vir
dit.
Jy sal dink die man uh is nou so 'n nice mens, maar hy is nie want somehow gaan hy abusive is met jou,
because
daai links is daar.
INTERVIEWER:
Sê vir my van being attractive to abusive men.
ANTOINETTE:
Uh, uh, julle… hy weet , hy lyk hy, hy kan vir jou…
INTERVIEWER: …Hy kan dit sense?
ANTOINETTE: Hy kan dit sien, hy kan dit sense, dis iets in jou in wat,… jy aanvaar
sekere dinge, jy is, is
amper soos jy is ja vir alles en " no, it, it's okay". As hy iets miskien lelik vir jou gesê
het nê, dan het uit sy
mond uit geglip, dan sê jy : "nee is allright". En dis is hoekoem jy so abusive is, sonder dat
jy bewus is van
dit kry jy so abusive uh, uh mans en dit is hoekom jy partykeer seer kry nie net een keer
nie. Jy kry nie net
een keer seer nie, jy kry meer as een keer seer. So aan die einde van die dag moet jy vir jouself, jy moet 'n
lyn trek. En jy kan net ontslae raak van al die dinge ontslae raak as jy jou toevlug na die Here toe neem, you
hav e to go through Christ, that's the only thing you have to go through the Lord. There is no way that you
can say you can survive (silence)..
En…
en ek het ook dit nie verstaan nie, maar toe ek baie vriende ontmoet toe is dit dieselfde, dit is basies
dieselfde
ding. Jy gaan uit die een huwelik na die ander, van die een verhouding na die ander en dus hulle,
hulle
change nie, hoor todat hulle nie hulleself behandel nie. Jy kan maar toe maak en tel because jy kan
nie 'n man verander nie. En niemand kan 'n vrou verander nie. Daai vrou moet haarself, sy moet met
haarself
beginne werk, 'n inner healing moet sy kry, verstaan jy. So, jy kan nie vir my sê nie iemand anders
het jou gechange nie. Jy moet 'n stap voorentoe sit. Jy kan net nie daar bly lê nie, want as jy daar bly lê dan
gaan
jy 'n hobo word. Jy gaan jou self be… by die einde van die dag gaan jy jouself gaan begin verkoop.
Because omdat jy sekere dinge nie verstaan nie.
Baie van die vrouens wil nie daar uit kom nie en saam met
ander
vrouens koppe gaan meng nie, of na organisasies toe gaan en gaan vra: "Wat kan ek doen nie?" Al
wat
baie van die vrouens doen is as jy met hulle praat dan sê hulle "Hoeveel betaal hulle vir jou?"
6

INTERVIEWER: So jy voel hulle het nog nie by daai punt gekom waar hulle verstaan dit kom van my af
nie.
ANTOINETTE: Exactly! You know, hulle, hulle verstaan dit nog nie so mooi nie. Want hulle…Hulle
weier,
party
van hulle weier, hulle lewe nog in 'n denial stage. Dit… soos ek vir jou sê, dit vat baie tyd. Ons
is nie
almal dieselfde nie, en uh ons kan ook nie verwag dat die volgende een soos ons is nie, but we must
never
give up on women like that. Jy moet daar is. Jy moet een ding onthou, daar is manne wat ook geabuse
word
deur vrouens en vir daai man om op te staan om uit te kom hy voel net seker sy manlike deel word
van hom weggeskeer, hoe kan hy uit kom, want tog word daar baie mans geabuse .
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette, dit klink of jy 'n baie balanced view het. Jy weet, dit klink of jy probeer
om
fair te wees.
ANTOINETTE:
No, I'm very fair. I'm very fair. En weet jy hoe, hoe kry jy dit reg? As jy as jy by jouself
beg in en dan staan jy agteruit en dan kyk jy wat daar buite gebeur. Nou die ding wat met my verlede
gebeur het,
as ek miskien
dit gedoen het dan sal ek die antwoord kan kry vir die persoon, as ek miskien dit
doen
sal ek die antword daar kry of miskien as ek vir daai man dit doen dan sal ek …die antwoord vir hom
sal dit wees. But jy moet amper soos uh… 'n paar tree agteruit staan om dit ten volle…
INTERVIEWER:
Om die volle picture te kry?
ANTOINETTE:
Yes, om dit te kan sien. So aan by die einde van die dag as jy wil die werk doen moet jy
een ding
onhou daar's nie kant kies ook nie. You have to be fair, maar jy sal nie fair is nie as jy nie met
jouself kan deel nie. You have to start with yourself. En daar is
niks verkeerd met jou nie, hoor. As jy dink
daar is iets verkeerd met jou gewees omdat die man jou so aangerand
het of jou so geabuse het, daar's niks
fout
met jou nie. So jy hoef nie vir jouself te bejammer nie of die blame op jou te sit nie, because there was
nothing
wrong with you.
INTERVIEWER:
Wanneer begin 'n mens dit te glo dat daar is, eintlik is daar nie iets fout met jou nie?
ANTOINETTE:
Man is die… is partykeer ander vrouens het partykeer een oog, jy gaan so deur baie
dinge,
daar is so lang ding wat jy moet deur gaan, so ek kannie, kannie eintlik vir jou sê nie. Partykeer skrik
jy uit
'n diep slaap uit baie vinnig wakker, vir anders vat dit jare. Vir my het dit baie jare gevat voor ek dit
kon besef.
So…dit is baie moeilik, ek moet dit vir jou sê. Omdat dit vat soveel tyd om in daai spieël te gaan
kyk en whatever is going to reflect back to you, it will never lie to you. Because that woman in that looking
gla ss,… that depression, that hurt, that fear, that bitterness, that anger! And… and yet your so beautiful.
INTERVIEWER:
Is 'n klomp emosies wat jy moet aanstaar.
ANTOINETTE:
Exactly! And that reality because that's the truth. Wat jy moet daar in sien, as jy in daai
spieël
in kyk en jy het 'n puisie in jou gesig in, die spieël gaan nie leuns vertel vir jou nie. Die spieël gaan
vir jou wys daai puisie is daar en daai puisie lyk nou so. En dit is die expression in your face, in your eyes.
INTERVIEWER: Wat het jy ges ien toe jy in die spieël kyk?
ANTOINETTE: Ek het baie, ek was baie confuse gehad, my eyes. My oë het
dit gesê. Jy kon dit sommer
op my gesig sien. And the answer is : "What are you going to do about it. Are you going to sit down, lie
backwards
and not do anything or are you going to do something. En ek het besluit : "Ek gaan uit …nie
langer
as dit nie".
INTERVIEWER:
So is nie net 'n matter van facing realities…
ANTOINETTE: No it is much more deeper than facing reality. You can face
reality, but if you didn't
decide
this is what you're going to do, this is what you want to do. This must be from inside. You have to
make…decide
yourself, not somebody to decide for you. Ander mense gaan jou nie alles sê…jy raak so
7

confuse dat jy ook nie eens weet aan die einde van die dag nie: "Wat praat die mense? Praat hulle regte
goedte
of, you know. En by die einde van die dag was dit: "Ag is ook maar net een van daai praatjies".
INTERVIEWER:
So jy het nie weer geglo nie.
ANTOINETTE: Ek het niemand weer geglo nie. En ek sal ook vir
jou self sê, dit was moeilik. But you
have to get
out there. Jy moet vir jouself kan sê: "As ek nie nou hier kan uit gaan nie, want as ek daai deur
weer
oop maak en daai man toelaat om in te kom, dan's dit neuse verby, want jy mag miskien nie weer 'n
tweede
kans kry nie".
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette, dit klink of jy nog steeds baie emosioneel is oor die hele ding.
ANTOINETTE:
Ek raak emosioneel as ek dink, nê, hoekom het ek nie die dinge vroeër raak gesien
nie,…dan
was ek van hulp vroeër vir die volgende persoon.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit klink of jy frustreerd is, kwaad is vir jouself.
ANTOINETTE: Ja, want as ek dit miskien vroeër kon raak gesien het, dan
was… dan kon ek baie mense
geh elp het, maar dan sê ek ook aan die ander kant vir myself as ek miskien dit vroeër raak gesien het, dan
was ek nog nie reg om ander mense te help nie. En uh… ek was so gebrei en gekap, dat
niemand gehoor
het
nie.
Dis amper soos bytels, hammers, grawe, sae, wat gekap was, sonder dat niemand hoor en sien, die Here
my so voorberei het. Toe't Hy geweet ek is nou reg nou, verstaan jy. En ek … ek glo aan elke ding het 'n
tyd,
you know, en ek dink dit is my tyd gewees wat dit moet geëindig het, sodat ek nou iets kan beteken vir
die volgende
mens. Sodat ek uh…uh vir jou kan sê: "Nee man, jy kan dit so hanteer of jy kan dit so
hanteer".
INTERVIEWER:
So daai ervaaring, so seer en so negatief as wat dit was, beteken vir jou vandag iets?
ANTOINETTE:
Dit beteken vir my so…is…is so …I value it, I treasure it, you know, because as ek nie
deur
dit gegaan het nie, ek sou niks beteken het vir die volgende persoon nie. Baie mense sal dink: "Oh, sy
pra at nonsence man, daai is stupidtigheid, waar kan 'n mens so… eers deur al die goedte" ek het het deur dit
gegaan,
yes, dit was seer, dit was bitter, maar die Here het 'n doel gehad hoekom ek deur dit moes gegaan
het.
Want anders dan sou ek nie verstaan het nie hoe om met sekere mense te deel nie. Ek moes deur al daai
dinge
gaan, ek moes verstaan het hoe voel dit as 'n man dagga rook, uh…uh alkohol, drug addict,
alchoholist-
ek, ek moes deur daai dinge gegaan het sodat as ander mense in die toekoms na my toe kom,
dan weet ek presies wat om vir daai persoon te sê, ek weet hoe voel dit, want my man het al daai dinge
gedoen.
Hy het gedrink, hy't dagga gerook, hy't mandrax gebruik, hy't nie gewerk, hy't my geld gesteel en
die kinders het nie melk gehad om te drink nie, en, en klere verkoop, hy't die huis se goed beginne verkoop,
weet
en al sulke goed.
INTERVIEWER:
So in addition to daai physical abuse was daar baie ander abuse wat aangegaan het.
ANTOINETTE:
Baie ander abuse, you know, jy moenie dink daar is net physical abuse nie, sexual abuse,
emotional
abuse, finacially en alles daai en dan's dit nog alcohol abuse, drug abuse en daai is alles on top
of everything,
en…en vandag is ek, ek is regtig waar nie spuit. Uh …uh miskien klink dit baie stupid
(smiling)
om so te sê. Ek is nie spuit ek het deur dit te gegaan nie, want uh… ek het daar uit gekom, ek het
so firm daar uit gekom, want ek het gesê nou gaan ek nie terug nie. So dit
is hoe ek voel. Want dit klink vir
jou,
miskien ek voel baie… Daar's so baie dinge wat ek miskien nou oorslaan, die tyd, die dae, die maande.
Daar's
so baie ander dinge wat jy uitmis, wat jy miskien wil gesê het vir mense, you know. Maar dan kom
dit so stukkie, stukkies, want ek werk elke dag met gevalle van domestic violence en dan is dit preseis
dieselfde.
En, en ek wil vir jou sê, al daai dinge wat die vrouens deurgaan het ek al reeds deur gegaan. So
dit is different abuses. En jy kry daai wat hulle sê dinge vir jou, emotional abuse, en dit wat hulle vir jou sê
maak
so seer, hulle besef nie eers hulle maak jou seer nie. En net een woord wat 'n man vir jou sê maak
alles
dood…dan's dinge nie weer dieselfede nie, al probeer hy wat, dinge sal nooit weer dieselfde is nie, net
deur
een woord wat hy vir jou gesê het nie. Die liefde is ook nie meer dieselfde nie, niks voel weer
8

dieselfde nie. Maar jy gaan maar net aan vir die sake van die kinders, jy't nie bly plek nie, as ek hier uit
gaan
waar gaan ek my kop neer sit vir my kinders… So ek kan aan en aan en aan praat because why dit is
elke sekonde van die dag moet jy deur gaan as daai man nie werk nie. En as daar nie geld is vir dagga nie,
dan kry jy pak, jy kry pak, jy gaan deur loop. Al moet ek die laaste brood geld vat om vir hom te gee om
daai
boxie dagga te gaan koop vir hom, net dat daar vrede in die huis moet wees. Net dat jy ook daai peace
of mind
vir daai dag kan het vir jouself. Ek het all gaan werk by BBH Hospital voordat ek tracing en
accounts
gedoen het. Ek praat nou bietjie baie deurmekaar, ek onthou bietjie stuk, stuk, sien jy. Ek onthou
toe hulle gestrike het in ninety-two by BBH Hospital, daai tyd toe was dit nog BBH Hospital, het ek begin
as 'n
cleaner. Ek het gevoel, as ek by die huis sit, wie gaan vir my kinders omsien? Ek moet iets doen.
Daar's
nie werk nie, maar iets moet ek doen. En dit gaan ook nie net om dit nie, ek wil ook goed voel, ek
wil tussen mense beweeg ek….ek wil uit dit uitkom…
INTERVIEWER:
Dis belangrik om iets te beteken vir iemand.
ANTOINETTE: Exactly! Ek het die vloere geskrop met daai groot mops daar, ek sê vir jou en daai
vrie nde van my, daar waar ek altyd mee gewerk het, hulle het gekom: "Het julle gesien, het julle gesien
An toinette
is 'n cleaner by die hospital", you know en "Het julle gesien sy maak die toilets skoon". Vir my
het dit nie meer saak gemaak nie, want ek wou iets vir myself beteken het. Ek het iets aan myself bewys,
nie aan iemand anders nie. En een dag toe ek nog so die toilet pot skoon maak, toe voel ek 'n tap op my
linker
skouer. En toe is dit die superintendent, Mr van der Merwe, hy was nog daai tyd by BBH Hospital.
En hy sê "Mevrou Reynders, kan jy asseblief na die kantoor toe, die personeel kantoor toe kom". Ek sê
goed
Meneer, ek haal toe my handskoene af ek sit dit een kant, ek vee my hande af en ek sit die goedte in
die skottel in en hulle sê toe vir my: "Ons het nou vir jou 'n ander werk gekry, jy gaan in die kantoor werk
nou".
En uh ek het nie geweet wat om vir hom te antwoord nie, al wat ek vir hom… ek vra vir hom: " Nou
hoekom
meneer". Vir my was dit nog nie waar nie, you know, uh uit 'n cleaner uit, uit 'n toilet pot uit,
(laughing)
uh…uh you know, kry jy 'n verhoging, jy werk in die kantore in, tracing en accounts, you know
it was
like…'n lig gaan oop vir my.
INTERVIEWER:
En jy was nog steeds in die huwelik?
ANTOINETTE:
Ek was nog steeds in die huwelik ninety-two. En dit is voor ek uit die werk uit is. Ek is
uit die werk uit, uit vrees…uit vrees toe moet ek mos toe nou… ek was permanent aangestel gewees.
Hu lle
gee my toe verhoging, ek gaan werk toe met die dokter se income tax en wat moet deur kom, as daar
fout e gaan en dinge soos daai. Ek was toe gelink saam met die dokters, dit was toe my werk. Ek het 'n goeie
posisie gehad, en dit was toe permanent.Maar ongelukkig nê, toe moes ek
my werk opgee, want toe
threaten hy vir my en daai fear (clapping her hands together) bounced back into my life.
INTERVIEWER:
So daar was 'n period waar jy opgestaan het en weer…
ANTOINETTE:
En hy't my neer gegooi. En ek moes gehardloop het, duck and dive, sien ek toe nie 'n
kombi
aankom nie, en dinge soos daai. Maar dit het nie, ek het weer, ek het gebrand na daai. Ek het
opgestaan
en aan gegaan. Tot die egskeiding deur is en ek het my huis gekry en ek het terug in my huis
ingetrek,
vir die mense was dit: "Hoe kan die vrou trug kom na die huis toe, die man gaan die vrou dood
maak". My vriendin oor die pad vr a: "Sien ek reg of wat, is daai vrou mal, daai man gaan haar dood kom
maak". Toe staan ek met my wit gown, satin gown, (smiling) ek sal nooit vergeet daar op my
stoep en ek
waai vir almal : "Goeie môre, hoe gaan dit?" Is dit jy Antoinette" Ek sê: " Ja hoe gaan dit man?"
Toe kan
ek weer lag. Toe moet ek vir die Here sê dankie. En niemand wil my gegelo het nie.
INTERVIEWER:
Maar jy het oorwin?
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, niemand wil my geglo het nie, verstaan jy?
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette, sê my van die laaste insident voor jy geloop het.
ANTOINETTE:
Die laaste voor ek geloop het was uh, my broer het met my kom praat en toe sê hy vir
my
my man was daar gewees en hy't gesê hy soek my trug, en uh toe het ek klaar gebrand al, my been is toe
al
9

geswel.
INTERVIEWER: En jy's toe nog nie geskei nie.
AN TOINETTE:
Nee, ek was nog nie geskei nie. En uh ek vra wat moet ek by die huis gaan maak. En hy
sê : " Antoinette, gee jou man nog 'n kans". Ek sê "Ek het die man al soveel kanse gegee, julle was nie daar
nie, julle verstaan nie", you know. En hy sê "Antoinette gee hom nog 'n kans". Die laaste kans was amper
my dood. Toe ek die eerste aand daar slaap en hy en ons toe seksueel verkeer, toe sê hy vir my: "Jy't
gehoer
met ander manne, en uh hy't uitgestap, en hy't in dieselfde straat in met 'n ander vrou uitgegaan en
daar
gaan slaap, die oggend trug gekom. Daai oggend toe slaan hy vir my so. Toe smyt hy die fridge, die
wasmasjien
uit en toe steek hy dit stukkend met die tuinfurk nê toe jaag hy vir my. Oorkant die pad het
my vriendin my toegesluit in haar huis in en uh toe het hy die kos en alles uit gesmyt, alles, alles het hy uit
gesmyt.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit nadat hy gesoebat het dat jy trug kom.
ANTOINETTE: Nadat hy gesoebat het… hy wil my dood gemaak het. En uh toe het sy die polisie gebel
en uh toe ek amper 'n heart attack gekry het en die helikopter moes my kom haal
het, uh techni cardiac
het ek
onwikkel. En toe sê die dokter vir my hulle weet nie of ek dit sal maak,
want ek sal dit nie kan maak
met die ambulance na Jo'burg Gen toe nie. So hulle moes my met die helikopter vat, so erg was dit.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy't letterlik aangehang vir jou lewe.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, ek het aangehang en dit was vir die sake van my kinders, want ek het vir die Here
gesê:
"Ek sal hier opstaan, ek sal iets beteken vir die volgende mens. Spaar my, gee my net nog net die een
kans". En Hy't my daai kans gegee. Ek het uit gekom, ek het 'n slight stroke
gehad. Ek het omtrent so vir
ses maande
…en ek het gefight teen dit. Ek het gefight teen dit en gesê hier
moet ek uit kom, ek kannie hier
bly lê nie! Uit kom moet ek uit kom. En ek belowe jou ek het uit dit uit gekom. Soos ek vir jou sê daar is
so baie ander dinge wat jy maar stuk stuk onthou, jy praat daaroor as iemand kom praat oor iets en dan
onthou
jy nou ek het deur dieselfde ding gegaan, you know. Maar daai was die moeilikste en daai was die
laaste.
Daai was nou die ergste en dit was die laaste…toe my kinders my amper verloor het. En ek het gesê
no more turning back…dit is wat ek nog kan onhou…en ons is nou nog daar. Hy kom nou na my toe met
sy probleme en dan kom sê hy vir my dat hy en sy girlfriend wat hy mee is het probleme of hy en sy
kinders
het probleme en ek help hulle, ek help vir hom. Ek help hulle met 'n goeie hart. I don't hate him, I
used
to hate the things that he used to do to me, but not him. Want as jy aanhou verbitterd, you have to, jy
moet
wegbreek van daai punt af, moet jy wegbreek, because anderste sal jy nooit iets beteken vir iemand
anders
nie. Die beste manier om deur dit te gaan is om deur counselling te gaan.
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette jy het vroeër gesê jy het, jy weet jy het tussen mense beweeg en jy't om jou
gekyk
en jy het dieselfde goed sien gebeur, wat maak jy van dit? Hoe werk dit.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, die tyd toe ek so tussen hulle beweeg nê, en sien wat aangaan, ek het nou baie gepraat
maar
en dan raak ek ook baie emosioneel. En ek het baie hard begin raak. Ek het baie mans begin haat. Ek
het onbeskof beginne raak. As enige mans met my praat dan lyk dit ek het daai, ek kan die man nou dood
ma ak.
Jy raak so hard, you know. Jy raak so verbitterd teenoor hulle. Maar soos ek vir jou sê toe ek tussen
mense
beweeg en toe vra ek vir myself: "Hoe kan ek van hulp wees vir ander mense". " Wat kan 'n mens
doen?"
En ek het besluit om uit te gaan daar. En ek het gegaan, ek het gegaan vir kursus. En that is why I
do t his. En ek is bly ek kan baie doen vir baie vrouens en vir baie mans en baie kinders, ek doen dit vir
kinders
omdat my kinders so deur baie dinge gegaan het. My een seun was betas gewees by 'n boarding
skool
en ek sit nou nog met daai probleem, hy vertrou niemand eers om sy sustertjies nie en hy is twee-entwintig.
So, weet mens gaan deur baie moeilike dinge, but you have to get out there. Dis al wat ek kan sê.
You have to get out there, you have to start with yourself, dis al wat ek kan sê.
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette hoe dink jy wat'se rol speel kultuur, "Kleurling", speel dit 'n rol in abuse,
waar
pas dit in?
10

ANTOINETTE: Ek dink, Kleurling, dit lyk so vir my dat die Kleurlinge is so uh, hulle is gebore met die
abuse
sal ek sê. Because hoekom is dit dan hulle kan verskriklik lelik vloek. Hulle, hulle gee nie om hoe
hulle
met jou praat nie vernaam in public. Nou weet ek nie is dit omdat hulle oumagroeitjies of se groeitjies
of wat, hulle was baie geabuse. Dit is 'n link ding wat doer jare aankom, en dit, dit is oorgedra. Dis 'n curse
wat
oorgedra is van generation tot generation. Kyk ons almal Kleurlinge kom van een generation af. Dit
kom van daar af. En dit is uh, uh, ek dink die Kleurling nasie is 'n baie verbitterde nasie. Die Swartes se
abuse
is eintlik different met ons se abuse. Kyk is like hulle culture, hulle word groot gemaak hulle moet 'n
man
obey. Jy weet, daai ek werk met die gevalle, is 'n like hulle betaal lobolla. Kyk onse mense kry alles te
maklik
reg. Onse manne het net gekom, gevat en getrou. En so jy is my vrou. Vir hulle is like you are my
property
en hulle is, hulle is 'n baie dominerende nasie, so dit lyk is in hulle in, man. Want die meerderheid
van die mans, baie van die pastore is dieselfde, baie van die mense wat in die kerke is, is dieselfde, alle die
rasse,
even slamse is dieselfde, you know. So ek kannie vir jou sê, dit, dit…party van hulle is beter as die
ander
ene nie. So which means dit kom maar van daai jare af.
INTERVIEWER:
So, jy dink dis iets wat in ons is.
ANTOINETTE: Ek dink is, is in ons in. En ons het 'n pride in ons in. Ek wil
jou sê Kleurlinge het 'n baie
groot pride in hulle. Some of them, hulle kan liewerste sit met daai
ding, hulle kan liewerste so dood gaan
in daai, because "Wie is sy, ek gaan nie na haar toe nie, sy is nie beter
nie, sy het dan net so 'n lewe gehad",
you know. Maar hulle weet nie is daar, daar is die strength dan.
INTERVIEWER:
Die waarde.
ANTOINETTE:
Daar is dan die stuk goud, ek kan goud van die vrou af kry vir
my toekoms, you know.
Ne t omdat
hulle weet daai vrou het so deur hel gegaan in haar verlede. En as jy die werk doen dan verstaan
hul le nie wat gaan hulle uit jou uit kry nie.
En dit is so groot hulp vir jou.
INTERVIEWER:
Het jy deur dit gegaan.
ANTOINETTE:
Ek het deur dit gegaan.
INTERVIEWER: Ek meen die tyd toe jy moet vra vir hulp, het jy ook daai attitude gehad.
ANTOINETTE: Ek het daai attitude, ja ek het dit gehad.
Is like reject, that, that attitude.
INTERVIEWER: Is dit soos in as ons seer kry dan stoot ons mense weg?
ANTOINETTE:
Weg ja, as mense wil help of even jy moet uitgaan vir dit. Iemand wat jou nou sal help en
dat "Wat,
wat weet jy, wat sal jy vir my kan vertel, lyk jou goedte is beter, jy gaan dan deur dieselfde ding".
INTERVIEWER:
So, dink jy dit is uniek aan Kleurlinge?
ANTOINETTE: Dis uniek aan Kleurlinge. Dus definitief uniek aan Kleurlinge, even as jou kinders
miskien iets verkeerd gedoen het en ek wil iets doen om jou kind te help, voel jy dat my kinders is dan nie
beter
nie, so hoe kan ek vir jou help. En ek wil jou vandag sê, dat onse kinders luister liewer na iemand
anders
as wat hulle na ons luister. So as ek nie van hulp gaan wees vir jou, vir jou kinders nie, hoe gaan jy
van hulp
vir my kinders. Ons moet daai beginne aanvaar, ons moet daar is vir mekaar se kinders, ons moet
daar
is vir mekaar, ons moet mekaar kan oplig in ons omstandighede.
INTERVIEWER: Dit lyk of jy praat van 'n soort van unity…
ANTOINETTE:
Exactly, ons moet regtig waar uit dit uit kom, en daai proudness van die "Kleurlinge",
ons
moet-
tipiese Kleurlinge, regtig waar!
INTEERVIEWER:
Dit klink of jy baie kwaad voel daaroor.
11

ANTOINETTE: Ek is baie kwaad vir die ras, en hulle sê nou ons is almal Swart, maar ek sê vir jou ons
lewe
nog in daai in ons is "Kleurlinge". Baie van ons weier as iemand vir ons sê: " Ja jy is Swart". Ons
kleef
nog aan daai so called Coloured vas, that is why we are sitting with this problem.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit hou ons agter?
ANTOINETTE: Exatly, ons kan net los en aangaan
or ons kan aanhou en aan kleef aan daai Kleurling
maniere van ons of ways wat ons het or we can let go -iets kan beteken vir mekaar, want jy gaan nooit iets
beteken
vir iemand nie, as jy gaan nog aan vas hou aan daai nie. Ek raak baie vies as ek aan dit dink.
INTERVIEWER:
Uhm, ek kan dit sien.
ANTOINETTE: Ek is baie keer en dan, you know. Ek gaan nie eers
baie uit met my eie ras nie. En deur dit
maak dit my, het dit my so verbitterd gemaak om met 'n
Kleurling man uit te gaan. Ek wil dit vir jou sê. Ek
het nie meer met Kleurling manne begin uit gaan because why they don't change. Almal almal is dan
dieselfde,
you know. Ek was getroud, dan het ek 'n Kleurling verhouding gehad met 'n outjie, toe is dit dan
dieselfde,
so hoekom moet ek dan met 'n Kleurling man uitgaan het ek gevoel. Ek het ek het vir myself
gesê:
"Hoekom is ek so stupid", jy weet daai: "Ek is stupid man, ek kan mos nie aan dit vaskleef nie", you
know.
En toe kry ek vir my 'n Swart ou, toe't ek met 'n Swart ou uit gegaan en ek het die wonderlikste
vehouding
gehad, you know that loving, caring- ek het nie iemand gehad wat vir my vloek in die straat nie,
ek het as hy met my wil gepraat het, okay nou en dan het hy gedink hy kan sy luck met my try. Because uh
daai
abusive toe't ek dinge begin verstaan al reeds, sien jy, en toe't ek vir hom gesê. "wow, met my praat jy
nie so nie."
INTERVIEWER:
Jy het al klaar die signals gesien.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, ja nee. Nee nou kan ek nie, ek kan dit sien. Ek kan vir hom sê: "Kyk hierso, kan ek en
jy met mekaar gesels
asseblief" en ek vat hom toe in kamer toe, nie voor mense nie, en ek sê vir hom:
"W at jy nou vir my gesê het, het ek nie van gehou nie, jy weet ek is lief vir jou, maar jy gannie vir my, met
my praat soos jy voel jy wil nie, en ek respek jou", maar as jy nie vir
iemand sê hou jy voel nie gaan daai
persoon dink dat jy is maar tevrede met hoe hy met jou praat, you know,
jy aanvaar alles, maar as jy daai
lyn getrek het wat met jou in die verlede gebeur het, nê, dan sal jy dit so opvat, maar as jy nie daai lyn
getrek
het nê, sal dit aangaan en aangaan en aangaan en aangaan. Daai man moet kan verstaan hoe jy voel
of jy
moet verstaan hoe hy voel, julle moet kan praat oor sekere dinge, jy moet uit dit uit kom en jy moet
kan sê hoe jy voel, jy moet bold is, jy sê: "Nee man wil jy nou vir my sê uh,uh dink jy nou ek is mal om te
aan vaar wat jy nou vir my sê".
INTERVIEWER:
En vroeёr kon jy dit nie doen nie?
ANTOINETTE:
Ek kon dit nie doen nie! Ek was bang. Ek was bang, as ek my mond oop maak dan kry ek
'n klap.
Dit was net 'n een kant ding gewees, daar was nooit kommunikasie nie. As daar nie understanding,
communication
and trust is nie, jy kan maar vergeet van 'n verhouding of, of 'n huwelik, want manne breek
vir jou so af, jy bly net stil, jy sê net ja, ja,
ja vir alles, jy aanvaar alles en dit is hoekom jy so attractive is
aan abusive
men, because alles is maar net 'n ja jy is maar net ja.
INTERVIEWER:
Easy going.
ANTOINETTE:
Easy-going, " Nee sy's alright, sy gaan maar net sê ja, ek gaan nou soon toe", dan dink
hy: " Nee sy gaan maar net sê ja, sy aanvaar alles." Jy het nie nodig om alles te aanvaar nie, you know, you
don't
have to. They need to know how you feel about certain things. Jy is nie 'n man se property nie. En dit
is al
way hoe hy jou gaan respekteer, al way.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit klink asof jy sê jy moet vir hom leer hoe om jou te treat.
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, …" I love you and
I repect you, but if you don't respect me", kyk daar's baie
12

ander vrouens wat seker maar daai lewe wil lewe wil lewe, maar hy gaan nie sy luck weer met my try nie.
Hy weet waar hy staan met die tipe werk wat ek doen, ek sê die man, nog voor ek nog uitgaan dan sê ek vir
hom,
ek hou nie van dit nie, dit nie, dit nie. Onthou net daar's nie tweede kans by my nie, neusie verby. Ek
is 'n baie loving mens, ek is 'n fun mens, ek hou van die natuur, ek hou van baie sang, ons talent is om te
sing,
en as ek opstaan dan sing ek, as ek gaan slaap dan sing ek- I'm full of love and joy, never angry when I
get out of bed, never angry when I go to sleep, ek sal dinge uitsorteer voor ek gaan slaap-ek wil goed voel,
ek wil nie met 'n suur gesig dood gaan nie, ek wil goed voel en dit is hoe ek my kinders ook leer.
So, ek glo nie 'n ander vehouding sal my onderkry nie. Hy't gesê, hy gaan vir my, hy gaan vir my breek. Jy
weet
die manne het altyd daai manier en sê: '"Ek gaan haar wys, sy weet waar sit of staan sy met my", nou
dit werk nie so nie. As julle mekaar verstaan, van die staanpoor af vir mekaar sê dit is hoe ek voel, en dit is
wat ek like, my likes en dislikes and this is what I'm doing. If you don't like it I want you to say now,
because
ek gaan jou nie 'n tweede kans gee nie. En by my is dit nie van jy gaan change nie, julle change
nooit nie. Want hulle sê hulle gaan probeer om aan hulle te werk en te gaan vir counselling- is nie maklik
vir 'n man om ui te gaan daar nie. En ek het nie tyd om te sit en wag nie tot hy decide hy gaan uit gaan nie.
Ek is oor daai stage van geabuse word.
INTERVIEWER:
Dit lyk asof jy dit nie meer tolerate nie.
ANTOINETTE: Nee, no, by my gaan dit nie vaskleef
nie, nie meer nie, ek is verby daai. Ek uh, hou nie
van ba kleiery nie, ek hou nie daarvan dat 'n man my moet verskree nie, ek hou nie daarvan 'n man moet
leu ens praat nie, hoe!, as jy kan leuens praat,ek los jou net omdat jy vir my gelieg het, gaan ek jou los, en
ek gaan jou sê ook: "Jy's gevaarlik, ek vertrou jou nie. En voor ons uit gegaan het het ek die dinge als
genoem
vir jou en jy wys my jy doen dit, so which means jy't nou jy't nou daai houding en jy willie change
nie,
so ek is min. Ek kan dit bold sê, ek kan dit bold sê, dan voel ek niks nie, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
So, jy kan die gevolge daarvan ook…
ANTOINETTE:…
Ja, ek dra dit, ek ek is nie meer bang nie, want ek ek ken nou my regte. Ek ken my
regte
van 'n vrou, want ek het nie verstaan wat beteken abuse nie.
INTERVIEWER:
So dit speel 'n belangrike rol ook, dat jy regte het?
ANTOINETTE:
Jy moet dit ken, as jy dit nie ken nie, jy gaan net aanvaar, want jy moet dit kan verstaan
wat
beteken abuse. Vrouens moet beginne uitgaan daar en hulle moet gaan vir, vir, vir, hoe kan ek vir jou
sê- hulle moet gaan na organisasies toe vir opleidng. Baie keer dan dink vrouens nê,
as jy gaan vir
opleiding, uh uh die mense dink hulle is beter as jy. Dit is dan vir jou, vir jou toekoms. Dit dit gaan jou
help, met 'n verhouding, met jou kinders se verhouding, met jou verhouding in die kerk
in, waar jy werk.
INTERVIEWER:
So jou, totaal jy as mens.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, you know. En jy kan dit oordra in die huis in. I think it starts at home, because you
have
to start at home and give it over to them, you have to educate your family about it and then you go out
there,
verstaan jy. So dit is, dit is baie belangrik. En ek uh, dit het tyd gevat, ek wil jou sê dit het tyd gevat.
Nou
en dan dan lag ek. (Laughing). Dan lag ek oor dit wat gebeur het. Dan sê ek vir die kinders: "Ek weet
nie kan julle onthou nie, daai tyd en daai tyd". En dan sê hulle nogal
vir my: " Haai, Mammie en kyk hoe's
Mammie
nou", you know .
INTERVIEWER:
Hulle sien dit ook, hulle het die verandering gesien.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, en vir my is dit like ek kan al sien al as uh iemand, 'n man na my toe kom en hy
approach
my, dan sê hy nou vir my hoe hy voel oor my. En kyk hulle het mos so lang deuntjie, hulle sing
daai
deuntjie so lekker, so mooi sous vir hulle, you know. En uh jy is mos so mooi, en ek hou van jou
stappie
en jou oë dit glans so en daai smile van jou, jou figuretjie, en al daai tipe… kyk hulle het mos daai
soet
woorde vir jou. Kyk daai is by-pass,
long gone, ek is nie 'n kind nie, ek verstaan abuse. Hulle abuse
jou met sulke dinge.
13
Comment [HK2]:

INTERVIEWER: Baie subtly.
ANTOINETTE:
Baie… baie.
INT ERVIEWER: So jy is 'n wyser mens.
ANTOINETTE: Hoe ek is uh, ek het 'n wyser mens uitgekom
ek is bold staan ek uit, (laughing) you know.
En ek is bly vir dit, maar jy moet een ding onthou dat die power, baie mense gebruik dit om mense te
domineer.
Jy moet ook baie versigtig wees om nie jou power te gebruik om mense te te manipuleer nie.
Baie
vrouens kom so uit dit uit ook. En dit is hoekom ek met baie vrouens daaroor praat. Nie net, nie om op
mense
te dans nie en mense te rule nie en en dis net jy wat wil sê is net jy wat wil doen.
INTERVIEWER:
So die nuwe power wat jy het, nuwe confidence wat jy het moet jy balance.
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, you have to. You have to use it, you know, to counsel people. You have to be
firm…
INTERVIEWER:
Sê vir my van daai power as jy dit negatief gebruik.
ANTOINETTE: As jy daai power negatief gebruik dan gaan dit 'n baie lelike uitwerking het op mense om
jou. Dit
gaan dinge meer, uh, uh mense sal nie verstaan nie hoe om sekere dinge aan te pak nie. Hulle sal
vasgevange bly in daai huwelik, omdat jy daai different power gebruik op daai persoon, daai negatiewe
pow er
op daai persoon. En dan gaan hulle dink: "Nee, ek moet maar nou is hier want is reg", you know of
ek moet my man aanrand, you know. Baie mense verstaan nie, hulle weet nie hoe om dit oor te dra nie aan
die mense nie. Jy het jou regte. Een ding moet jy onthou, jy het jou regte. Punt nommer een- niemand het
die reg om aan jou te slaan nie, niemand het die reg om jou te vloek nie, niemand het die reg om jou
seksueel
af te rem nie, you know. En niemand het die reg om lelike dinge van jou te sê nie. Niemand het
die reg om jou uh uh jou dignity van jou af te gryp nie en vir jou so af te takel nie en vir jou te sê: "Ja, jy is
maar
'n useless nie", want mans doen dit. Hulle doen dit met graagte. So dit is hoekom, ek uh, ek is nie
versigtig
weer nie, ek weet. Ek is ek is goed opgelei en ek weet hoe om my power te gebruik, ek weet
wanneer
moet ek firm is, bold staan daar uit, en know when I have to put my foot down en sê nou het jy te
ver gegaan en ek moet nou verdere stappe neem. En daar's 'n tyd wanneer jy moet 'n bietjie sag wees, you
know
en hulle bietjie die wat jy sê: "Okay, dinge sal okay is en, you know, but there is a time when you
have
to draw a line, this man have to know that this is serious, this is an offence.
INTERVIEWER:
Sê vir my van daai different tye, wanneer jy kan negotiate en wanneer trek jy die lyn.
ANTOINETTE:
Wanneer ek die lyn trek, nê, wanneer mans baie, hulle hulle … partykeer stem hulle saam
met
sekere dinge, right, maar wanneer 'n man vir my kan sê sy vrou is maar 'n useless of sy kind is maar 'n
useless,
hy het altyd 'n negatiewe sien in die famielie in, hy is altyd die een wat reg bly, hy gee nie vir jou
kans eintlik om te praat nie. As hy dink jy wil iets sê dan dan, hy switch jou so lelik af, its like the way
he
say it.
INTERVIEWER: Dis baie te doen met sy attitude?
ANTOINETTE:
Sy attitude, as hy 'n attitude problem het sal jy dit kan hoor because it comes from inside,
the way he say it to you "listen here, you don't tell me, jy sê nie vir my nie". Like, hy voel hy is altyd in
beheer
met als, so as hy daai bytekant kom voel hy ook hy is altyd in beheer, as hy hier by Crisis Centre
ook kom en hy praat met sy vrou voor my, dan voel hy hy is ook in beheer.
INTERVIEWER: En jy het dit in jou huwelik ook ervaar?
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, ja…dan sê ek meneer nou gaan jy bietjies
te ver, ek sien jy doen net die praat
werk,
jy gee nie jou vrou 'n kans nie, sy moet net haar mond hou, jy rem haar af. Want sy sê jy sê vir haar
"Hou
jou bek!" dan bly sy maar stil, maar nou is dit haar beurt, jy het jou kans gehad. En as ek sien hy hy
14

hy voel net nie niemand sê hom nie, dan sê ek nou moet 'n lyn getrek word, nou moet die gereg maar sy
gang
gaan, ek het probeer. Sy het vir jou hoeveel kanse al gegee, jy het gevoel jy is reg, miskien as die
magistraat
vir jou kan sê, miskien voel jy ek is nou 'n vrou, julle wil mos nie gesê word deur vrouens nie,
tipiese
Kleurling mans, wil nie gesê word deur 'n Kleurling vroue nie 'jy sê nie vir my nie'. En dit is waar ek
byvoorbeeld
vir hom sou gesê het: "Daar's vrouens soos ons hier buite man, wat weet hoe om met sulke
mens
te werk. Ons gaan jou nie slaan met vuiste nie, ons gaan jou nie aanrand nie, maar ons gaan jou met 'n
paar
woorde gaan ons jou mee slaan, nie vloek nie, nie emotional afbreek nie, net vir jou sê waar ons
staan".
INTERVIEWER:
Daai assertiveness.
ANTOINETTE: Ja,…So dit is hoe ek voel oor die
hele ding. Daar's so baie dinge wat 'n mens kan van
praat, baie dinge wat gebeur wat jy nou sien hoe werk
jy met die mense en uh vernaam as dit nou bekeerde
mense is. Daar was 'n geval gewees en die man sê: "Ek vat my bybel, ek lees my bybel" toe vra ek "Sy
word
so afgerem maar met 'n bybel storie", you know…
INTERVIEWER:
So daar is verskillende tactics wat hulle gebruik.
AN TOINETTE: Daar is verskillende tactics wat hulle gebruik, en uh die arme vrou sy voel nou soos 'n
stupid. In die kerk in moet sy maar net "Yes sister, ja pastoor, ja priester". Sy is nou so
skaam want haar
man
is nou 'n pastoor of 'n priester of 'n diaaken of whatever jy vir hom noem.
INTERVIEWER:
So haar man se posisie, sy status, en so aan, dit druk haar verder af. Sê vir my in jou
Huwelik…
ANTOINETTE:…Verder
af.
INTERVIEWER:
Sê vir my in jou huwelik, jou man het, daar was 'n tyd toe hy nie gewerk het nie, jy
was soort van die broodwinner in die hu is in.
ANTOINETTE: Ja ek was die broodwinner.
INTERVIEWER:
En tog het daar abuse plaas gevind in die huis in.
ANTOINETTE: En waar ek dit toe nou opgetel het nê, soos
ek vir jou sê ek het vir counselling gegaan,
ma ns soos daai as die vrou werk en sy is die broodwinner in die huis in, omdat hy minderwaardig voel,
rand hy vir haar so aan. Emotionally gaan hy vir haar liederlik
afknou, sy moet een ding onthou, dit gaan
nie lekker
gaan in die huis in nie. En nog 'n ander ding is as die man werk en die vrou werk ook, maar as
die die die vrou miskien 'n hoër posisie as die man het, moet jy een ding onhou ook gaan
hy minderwaardig
voel, gaan dit altyd daai unbalancedness in die huis in is, you know. Because why, jy kry
meer geld en hy
kry nie soveel geld as wat jy kry nie. En hy gaan jou altyd beledig, hy gaan altyd lelike, negatiewe dinge
het om van jou te sê, you know. En dan wil hulle ook nie gaan vir counselling nie, even as jy vir hom gaan
sê : "Ek dink jy moet ingaan vir counselling", hy weier, daars niks verkeerd met hom nie, jy is altyd die
probleem.
Daar's altyd 'n fout met jou, maar ek wil vir jou sê, daar's niks foute by jou, maar jy gaan so
voel,
nê naderhand, dat jy is die fout in die huis in. As jy miskien dit gedoen het dan sou dit miskien nie
gesê
gewees het nie, you know. Hulle maak jou dat jy dat jy minderwaardig voel, dat jy voel jy is die
problem
in die huis in.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy doubt jouself.
ANTOINETTE:
Ja, jy, jy doubt jouself, in alles wat jy doen, jy doen niks reg nie. Jy voel dit so, want hy't
dit al klaar afgedwing, geestelik is jy so afgerem deur die dinge wat hy vir jou sê, hy kraak jou af.
INTERVIEWER:
So wanneer jy finally loop, dink jy dis 'n proses van van beginne jouself glo?
ANTOINETTE: As wie loop nou?
15

INTERVIEWER: As jy, die een wat geabuse word, loop.
ANTOINETTE: As jy uit dit uit loop, dan het jy al reeds al so ver gegaan,
dat jy, jy is die oorsaak van die
probleme
in die huis in.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay..
ANTOINETTE: So as jy nie nou hier
uitgaan nie, uit die huwelik uit nie, dan gaan die man jou dood
maak.
INTERVIEWER:
So al loop, selfs al wanneer jy loop, is daar nog daai glo in is dat…
ANTOINETTE: …Jy's die oorsa ak.
INTERVIEWER: Laat, ek loop, ek is die problem so ek moet loop.
ANTOINETTE: Jy moet loop, dit is nou die ander
different way van dit. Die ander different way is
wannneer jy loop want jy is moeg van die man, want jy weet daar's niks fout met jou nie.
INTERVIEWER:
Hoe het jy geloop?
ANTOINETTE:
Ek het geloop want ek het myself beginnne ondersoek, ek het gekry daar's niks fout met
my nie,
die man is die probleem, you know. In die begin het ek gevoel "kyk hier, ek is die probleem", hy
het my so laat voel. Hy het my minderwaardig laat
voel, ek het regtig waar so gevoel, hoor. En ek het ook
geglo dat die man is lief vir my. En as hy my nie gaan
slaan nie, hy't 'n verhouding. Ek was al klaar
gewoont
al. So dis different ways hoe jy uit daai huwelik uit kom, verstaan jy, different ways. So is nie
almal
van ons wat dit so uit kom nie. Dit is hoekom ons as vrouens, ongeag watter ras jy is, moet ons daar
is vir
mekaar. So jy kan maklik, as jy nie daar is vir daai persoon nie, kan sy in 'n erger een in stap, gaan sy
in haar
dood in in stap, want daar was baie vrouens wat in hulle dood ingestap het, want hulle het nie die
regte
hulp gekry nie. So daarom kan ek vir jou sê as ons nie daar vir vrouens gaan wees nie dan gaan uh uh
sy in haar dood in stap. Jy gaan either van 'n stroke dood either jy gaan mal raak (silence).
En en ek sê vir jou nou as ons nie daar gaan wees vir mekaar nie gaan dit 'n onhuil wees as ons nie gaan
opstaan
nie en sê ek wil probeer 'n difference te maak nie, ek wil daar is vir iemand. Hier werk ek nou al
meer
as drie jaar voluntary, ek het vier kinders, ek het 'n kleinkind, ek het myself. Baie mense dink ek kry
'n salaris.
Ek kan nie vir jou sê nie, as ek net kom kry dan gee my vriende vir my, daar staan, 'n pak kos op
my tafel, suiker, rys, toilet papier, toiletries, en 'n vyftig rand in 'n envelope en dan gaan ons weer aan,
dan… Ek het nooit gekla nie, daar is nie kos in die huis nie. En is nou meer as drie jaar werk ek sonder 'n
salaris
en ek is so gelukkig, daar's niemand wat vir my afrem in my huis nie. Ek staan daar op, ek gaan
werk
toe. Ek roep dit ek gaan werk toe. Vir my is dit ek kry meer as 'n salaris, you know, …die werk wat
ek
doen.
INTERVIEWER:
Dis iets baie meer as 'n salaris.
ANTOINETTE:
Meer as 'n salaris, want mense wat 'n salaris verdien, sê ek vir jou is so ongelukkig, hulle
huise
is koud, there is no love in their homes, its so empty, they feel lost, they feel alone because hulle weet
nie waarnatoe nou nie, hulle is rigtingloos met al daai miljoene rande. Ek wat nie 'n salaris verdien nie, ek
wil vir jou sê, ek voel baie gelukkig, ek en
my kinders. Al is dit net daai droë sny brood, ons (laughing)
voel baie gelukkig.
Niemand wat vir jou nag nie, niemand wat vir jou vloek nie, nou en dan voel jy lonely,
bec ause you need somebody to talk to! But ek ek is so versigtig, ek is nie oorversigtig nie, ek weet ook
wanneer gaan ek in 'n ander verhouding instap, die verhouding is nie vir my nie. Sommer die eerste dag as
'n man met my praat dan hoor ek hoe hy met my praat, die stemtoon,
die way hy sekere dinge sê.
INTERVIEWER:
Jy's meer sensitive.
16

ANTOINETTE: Ja, ek let al daai dinge let ek op. Ek sal nie weer sommer so in 'n ander verhouding in stap
nie.
En ek kan dit vir my kinders ook sê, want hulle is groot. Ek ruik elke dag lekker, ek het, ek het
perfume,
ek spray en ek is elke dag in my werk in. Daar's nie een dag wat ek vir jou kan sê dat ek negatief
uit die bed uit opstaan nie, because there is so much more then money. Sonder geld nê, kan jy nie, maar met
geld
is alles ook nie reg nie. En I'm I'm so proud, I'm a winner, I'm more then a conqueror. Its uhm…What
more
do I want? Rather without him than with a unhappy marriage, you know or a realtionship, without
that
rather.
INTERVIEWER:
So is baie dinge wat moes oorkom toe jy loop? Dit was nie net die abuse nie, is finacial,
is ' n different
attitude oor die lewe wat jy het.
ANTOINETTE:
Yes, is… is jy pak dinge in 'n different way aan, in 'n different lig sien jy baie ander
din ge, you know. En uh, jy kan so, jy…but you will always smile as jy oor dit kom, ek wil dit vir jou, you
will always
smile. And I know, this is my calling, ek is gebrei vir dit, this is my calling and nobody can take
it away.
Al moet ek twintig jaar sonder 'n salaris werk, fabrieke het my gebel, hulle het my kom sien, daar's
baie mense wat sê "Jy kry dan nie 'n salaris nie". Ek sê "Wie sê dit vir jou, the blessings pouring on me, so
hoe,
hoe meen jy, ek lewe lekker, lyk ek vir jou soos iemand wat sukkel, my skoene is nie skeef nie, my
hare
is altyd gedye, ek het lipstic aan my lippe", niemand weet nie eers of ek (laughing) swaer kry nie, so
dit is hoe ek is. En ek gee nie voor nie, because ek sê jou hoe ek voel. As ek nie lekker voel vandag nie dan
gaan
ek vir jou sê. Ek is baie meer spontaan, ek is baie oop met sekere dinge. En ek praat hoe ek voel en dit
is hoekom
ek nie kwaad sal gaan slaap nie of depressed sal gaan slaap nie, want deur depressie het ek
gebrand.
So I have to deal with the situation, I have to talk about it, somebody need to know how I feel
about
certain things, even as iemand vir my iets sê wat ek nie van hou nie dan gaan ek daai persoon
persoon
sê: "Ek het nie daarvan gehou, die way jy met my gepraat het nie", I need to settle it before I go
home
to my family, before I go to bed I have to settle that thing. So jy leer so baie dinge, jy is so goed
gebrei,
jy is so goed ge-educate, net out of that abusive marriage,… just out of that abusive marriage you
learn
so much, but you have to step out of that marriage, then only you will learn, I'm telling you.
INTERVIEWER:
So jy sê 'n mens kan nie groei in 'n abusive marriage nie?
ANTOINETTE:
Jy sal nooit kan groei nie, jy sal, jy sal agteruit gaan, niks sal regkom nie. Jy sal dink dit
kom reg nê, dan's dit maar net weer terug….. Ek wil goed voel elke dag, as ek nuwe dinge aanpak dan voel
ek goed.
Ek wil nie met seer rond loop nie, want uh sê vir my, as ek met seer rond loop, wat gaan ek
beteken vir die volgende persoon? Weet hoe sensitief is 'n kind,… 'n kind kan aanvoel, regtig waar,
'n kind
voel aan as daar nie iets lekker is nie, as jy nie goed voel nie, want hulle is baie sensitief. Baie keer
dan
kom daar
kinders na my toe dan sê hulle: "Aunt Antoinette dit en dit het dit aan my gedoen", maar hoe kan
daai
kind na my toe kom, hoe kan sy na my toe kom as sy sien ek kannie met haar praat nie, sy lyk dan so
hartseer,
jy't seer op jou gesig. So jy sal moet deel met jou seer om iets te kan beteken vir die volgende
persoon.
En dit is wat vir my gehelp het, en jy moenie dink dit is net 'n deel want dit gebeur van, miskien
soos
uh, uh die jaar sê eighty six, dan gaan dit weer vir jou tref sê ninety, dan gaan dit jou weer tref ninety
two,
dan gaan dit you weer tref sê ninety six, dit vat jou in stages. Dit is hoekom moet jy uitgaan daar vir
counselling.
INTERVIEWER:
So, al is jy klaar uit is daar nog baie werk om te doen.
ANTOINETTE:
Baie werk, want baie keer, nê, dan, dan, sny jy alles af. Jy try om af te sny, maar jy het
nog nie gedeel met dit nie. Dit is hoekom jy aanhou sal seer kry want, want jy het jou verlede met nog nie
eintlik
mee gedeel nie. You have to deal with it. Anderste gaan jy maklik in 'n ding in stap.
INT ERVIEWER: Is dit wat met jou gebeur het?
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, dit is wat definitief met my gebeur het. Ek het nie verstaan nie, ek
het nie gedeel
met my verlede nie. En ek wil hê, en ek pleit eerste met baie vrouens, sê ek "Deel eerste met
jou verlede,
voordat
jy in 'n verhouding ook in kan stap". Dis amper maak skoon eerste, want nou vat jy jou seer en daai
man
se seer, as hy ook nie met sy verlede gedeel het nie, jy moet vir hom ook kan sê: "Ek dink voor ek en
17

jy in 'n verhouding ingaan, moet jy kan deel met jou verlede, want jy moenie dink nie jy het maklik uit 'n
verhouding
uit gekom nie, want toe jy uit daai verhouding uitkom toe het jy gebaklei met daai vroumens,
jy't kinders nagelaat daar, julle het vir mekaar seer dinge gesê, of sy het vir jou dinge gesê wat vaskleef aan
jou,
iemand het vir my dinge gesê wat vaskleef aan my. So as ek nie met my verlede gaan deel nie en jy nie
met
jou verlede kan deel nie, kan ons nie 'n verhouding het nie. Al moet ons saam gaan vir counselling,
saam
gaan om 'n sielkundige te gaan sien, en en dan gaan daar nie 'n verhouding wees as ons nie gaan nie.
En baie mense dink as hulle na 'n sielkundige toe gaan, jy's crack, 'Ek is nie mal nie'. Dit gaan nie oor dit
nie,
hoe gaan jy, hoe gaan jy kan werk aan die verhouding? En dis hoe ek voel. Ek gaan nie in 'n ver…'n
huwelik,
ek gaan, ek gaan weer trou, ek is nie bang daai nie, om in 'n huwelik in te stap nie, ek is nie
bang
om in 'n verhouding in te stap nie, maar ek gaan nie in dit in nie sonder counselling nie, met daai
partner,
hy sal moet, moet met sy verlede kan deel, as hy nie wil nie …uh uh hy moet een ding onhou, ek
sal nie. Dit is hoe ek voel. Om 'n gesonde verhouding te het, gesonde idees, moet daar is…(silence)
INTERVIEWER:
Antoinette, baie dankie, ek waardeer dit. Ek weet dit is verg baie energie, baie
emosie…
ANTOINETTE:
Humm, dis alrigh.
INT ERVIEWER:
Ek waaredeer dit regtig. Voor ons afsluit, is daar enigeiets wat jy wil sê oor die
erv aaring van 'n "Kleurling" vrou wat jy, weet, 'n abusive relationship verlaat? Enige iets wat jy laastens
daaroor
wil sê?
ANTOINETTE:
Daar is so baie dinge wat ek vir hulle wil sê, maar al wat ek vir hulle wil sê, hulle moenie
bly lê nie, hulle moet opstaan, gaan werk aan hulle, en hulle moet kan deel met hulle verlede. Hulle moet
dit nie wegsluit nie, hulle
moet deel met dit, daar is baie mense wat hulle kan gaan vir counselling, daar is
plekke waar jy kan gaan
vir sielkundige behandeling, maar as hulle dit nie gaan doen nie, dan gaan hulle in
'n erger
verhouding, dan gaan hulle, miskien sal hulle al dood is. So ek pleit, ek pleit eintlik met daai
vrouens
wat so vassit, hulle is nie nodig om te glo hulle is nie, hulle moet nie hulleself blameer nie,
dit is nie hulle fout nie. Daar's niks fout met hulle nie. Al wat hulle net moet doen is op te staan, uit te gaan
vir counselling, en te sien dit is wat ek moet nou doen, en dit is al wat ek kan sê.
INTERVIEWER:
Dankie Antoinette.
ANTOINETTE:
Okay.
2. TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH JENNY
INETRVIEWER: As I have told you be fore, the interv iew is about uh" Coluered" women, …
JENNY:
Jaa.
INTERVIEWER: Who left abusive relationships, okay. How did you experience leaving the
relationship?
JE NNY:
How did I experience it? Umm… at first I thought: "Gee, what am I going to do now, you know.
I mean.
I'm not working because, I mean he actually kept me from getting work. He kept me at home, he
didn't
want me to go and work. And I thought "What am I going to do now. Now it all means I am gonna
hav e to go lay on my mother and them's neck. But I thought … Oh, I mustn't swear (laughing).
INTERVIEWER: Please feel free to talk the way you want to.
JENNY:
I thought, you know. "Okay, this is just a chance I have to take". And I went for it. Well, my child
came
first. Especially when she first started, you know, trying to commit suicide. I thought well, rather this
than
having a dead child on my hands. And that was about the fourth time that she done it.
18

INTERVIEWER: Was the attempt to commit suicide related to the abuse?
JENNY: Jaaa, no, it was terrible man, you know what she used to do. She couldn't have friends…
nê.
And
umm, she used to like, you know. You know how's children. They want friends, now she only had one
friend
and she used to live behind us, and she always used to play with her. In fact, they grew up together,
man.
They were in, the other child was in napkins, she was in panty. Well I potty trained her very early and
they
were friends, but believe it or not, he didn't want her to be friends with that child, at all. And umm,
sometimes
when she go to shop, then he decides that she's taking to long at the shop and he will go and
smack
her there outside.
INTERVIEWER:
How old was she?
JENNY: Aag tog… She was about ten,
eleven years old when he start hitting her and that was all because
of this woman (husband's mistress) he was busy with.
Just because Nicole (her daughter) didn't want to
gre et her. Nicole used to tell her: "Listen here you black thing, don't look at me", you know. They are half
African,
and uh… you know she, she, she used to cause a lot of trouble and umm and she even used to go
to the
teachers and pretend she's Nicole's mother. Ja, that's how that woman was in our lives and uh she
used
to afterwards say Nicole don't go to school. She even used to tell him I get out of cars.
INTERVIEWER:
This is now the woman your husband was involved with?
JENNY:
Ja, and I mean I'm the whole day busy. You can even see for yourself now, the washing is
washed
its ironed. Where am I going to have time to get out of cars or ride around with cars? And… he just
didn't believe us. He used to just believe her. And it got worse when she went to high school. Then
it was
Nicole isn't
at school. Nicole is riding around with Majimbo's (group of gangsters). Nicole is getting
out of
Majimbo's
cars. Now you must know what make it worse, she used to live opposite the school. Now, if you
standing
there, you can see everything, you know. Now and then she used to tell him Nicole get out…
And
then he used to come hit. He don't ask what's going on. He just start hitting and swearing. Now you
must
know he used to hit both of us.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
Ja, she even used to go to the teachers and tell them stories about Nicole. Which we didn't even
know
about. Until one day when I made, you know to call his bluff, I made Nicole in standard nine, that
was uh the year she failed in standard nine and then uh ooh he was worse, he got worse. The higher she
we nt the worse it was, and it was as if he wished she must fail. It was so as if he wished she must turn out
to be
a bad girl.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh, uh, uh.
JENNY:
You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Uh
JENNY: It looked as if he wanted her to be a bad girl, and because she's not turning out, it looked as if he
it j ust got worse and me also. I mean, and he used to tell me. He used to say, you know: "Other women if
you hit them and carry on like I carry on, they
would have long ago turn to drinking and whoring or
something" and he used to know
I don't but yet he used to hit me and say I do it.
INTERVIEWER: Uh. So you think it aggrevated him more, the fact that you didn't do it?
JENNY: Ja, it didn't drive me to that, to that things, liquor and that and umm I used to smoke, I left
smoking.
I used to smoke a twenty a day. Oh, when its time for that man to come from work, Feroza.
Whole
day I don't smoke but when it's time for that man to come from work and then I start smoking, and
um,
okay, soo, we now, you know, just left him maar I tell you that man sleeps out then it was like
19

Christmas for us. Really, if he sleep out for the whole weekend, then it was like Christmas for us, then you
know
its peace. You know what it, how it used to be like. Man I was telling you mos, from standard nine.
So what we done, he used to mos this that he used to tell us she ride around with Majimbo's so I made this
One
teacher, this English teacher write a letter. So I told her. So she didn't want me to go to school. So I
told her, okay you tell the teacher the teacher must write him a letter to say no, you were today in school.
And
the teacher wrote it. You know how cross that man was. He actually wanted to hit us. So I said no you
can't.
I said: "You then swear the child everyday, she don't go to school. Now here's the letter to proof that
she's
going to school. What do you want?", you know. And it look as if this thing just got him more mad.
And
um, then it looked as if he hated this child. She actually turned him against her, his own child. And
um,
okay. It carried on, you know until…He was working. You wouldn't believe it that in standard nine,
the day she started her final exams that man left work. He's gone the whole morning, the minute Nicole
comes
home then that man step in. Then the radio is top volume. From that time two o'clock till past two
three
o'clock the next morning. He didn't give that child a chance to study. Really.
JENNY:
So you think this woman poisoned his mind.
INTERVIEWER: Ja. He never gave her a chance so she failed. In fact she didn't even fail bad. She just
failed
History with one mark.
JENNY:
Mm.
INTERVIEWER: Ja, and she didn't fail
and just because this vice principal went after this woman's
stories, she made Nicole fail. "She's rude to her mother". I tell her I'm her mother. "No, you not the woman
that used to come complain",
you know. And I got mad there in the office then Nicole said: "Mommy,
come
lets go".
JENNY:
So how long was this affair going on?
INTERVIEWER:
Ho! Since the child was in grade one… Since the child was in grade one right through
her school years this woman
was interfering so in my life. And you wouldn't believe it the day I walked out
of the house, she moved
in. I don't know how long she was there and that was it. That was the end of their
relationship. And then he… left her, his living with another woman…(Silence). But if you first think of
how this man used to hit me. It was horrible. Then he sleep out,
and now he come here, sometimes he come
so three o'clock in the morning. And then he come hit me. He hit me of the bed and he pull me on my hair
back
on to the bed . I used to wear my hear long. I cut it short. It's through him I cut my hair short. And
um,
the next morning I can't even brush my hair. You know then it's full of, you know, blood.
INTERVIEWER:
Shu! It was bad Jenny.
JENNY:
Jaa, then the brush can't even go through my hair. That's how my scalp how my scalp started.
That's
why I've got this bad scalp, it was since that time. And um one…um it was holidays. I was working
part-time,
he weren't working. Now when I work and then um that was only in December time, then he
used
to allow me to work. If I get paid and then he take my money and him and this girlfriend of his will go
shopping ( laughing).
INTER VIEWER: Shu! You're able to laugh about it now?
JENNY:
Ja, now (laughing), but sometimes when I sit so alone then I think I hate this man.
INETRVIEWER:
Uh uh.
JENNY: Then I hate him. I really
hate the pig. ( Silence)
JENNY:
You can ask another question now, then I'll answer it.
INTERVIEWER:
Um. Sometimes you hate him.
20

JENNY: Ja. One day he came there to the centre, so he said: "God forgives". I said: "Now, I did forgive
you".
And then forgetting, I you can't. I can't. I can't. You know there's times, especially now that Nicole is
getting
married. You know, then I think of, hey, must my child also go through what I went through.
INTERVIEWER:
Your scared for her.
JENNY: Ja, and I know. I know her boyfriend. He's
a lovely person but still, you know how they
can change.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. What happened to you? Did he change?
JENNY: Ja, the minute he became involved with this woman. You must know, she
was eleven years
younger than him. That's why I can't stand small children that is so… like to mess around with married
me n. You know they don't realize what they're doing. To them its like a challenge and to her it was like a
challenge.
She can take him away from me and you know when she used to see me then she used throw
her body so, Feroza, and there was two children. Ja, she got two children from him.
INTERVIEWER:
This is while you were married.
JENNY: Ja, and they used to take the child there in front of Nicole. "Oh here's your sister", and that made
Nicole mad. And Nicole used to say: "I'm sorry, I…I don't look like a kaffir. But I don't believe that was
my sister", you know. After that then the brother came along.
INTERVIEWER:
And what were you doing?
JENNY:
There was nothing I could do that time, you know, that time the law
didn't yet go through that.
Because that time they used say, you know, they don't interfere with domestic
affairs.
INTERVIEWER:
Umm.
JENNY:
If you go to the police station they don't. So there was nothing I could do. I didn't know what to
do. I mean, look, I was stupid man, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Umm.
JENNY: And I think that a lot of people are saying umm, you know: "They like it, they like the
punishment
that's being dished out". But its not. It's just that you don't know who to turn to.
INTERVIEWER:
Umm.
JENNY: Now, look what actually happened
was the first time when Nicole tried to commit suicide. And I
couldn't take it, you know. And then I took her to his mother. Because his mother was every time was lets
pray
lets pray and that wouldn't help.
INTERVIEWER:
And that wouldn't help your relationship.
JENNY: You know I actually hated
going to church after that. Because every time you must pray. You
know,
Feroza, when its time for that man to come home from work and me and Nicole is walking and
praying
through the house, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Terrified.
JENNY: Ja, just for him to come. You know, then we even make sure everything
is right. Then he
sommer decide the food is not nice. He didn't even taste it. He just look at it and
then he throw me with the
pots.
21

INTERVIEWER: Ssh.
JENNY: Ja, then I must just dive.
INTERVIEWER: He was not provoked or whatever.
JENNY: Mmm huh-uh. That was just like to get out of the house. So
as if I'm going to stop him. And in
the mean
time we were quite happy when he got out of the house. And it was so as if he's scared I'm gonna
stop
him from going out. And then he starts… with the food or at night, when he come from her knowing
he'd done something. Then he would cause an argument. He sommer starts at Nicole's room, "See how
your
room look". Ja, then he starts shouting her around and that. And you must know then its exam time,
you know. Every year nicely exam time then that man carry on like that.( Silence)
INTERVIEWER:
So what did it do to you, knowing that he was doing this to your child?
JENNY: I…I hated him. That's when I really started hating him. So, you can maar say I started hating
him
while
we were still together. You know, I don't know, I don't think you ever experienced it, but if a man
touch
on you then you get this cold shivers.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh? Uh.
JENNY: That's how I felt, I was feeling about that man. If he touch on me then I start speaking loud I say
"No, man".
I used to jump up and I go and sleep by Nicole.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JENNY:
I just couldn't stick it if that man touch on me. Really, I couldn't take it. And up till now, I can't
take a man (whispering), ho I can't stick a man, really. We can be friends, but the minute he starts being
possessive or something, ho I can leave everything.
INTER VIEWER: Why, because is that a sign that you saw in him…
JENNY:
Yes.
INTERVIEWER:
Possessiveness. He was possessive?
JENNY: Ja, oh yes he was even in the meanwhile that he's busy doing funny things outside.
INTERVIEWER: So while he was being unfaithful, he was accusing you of being unfaithful.
JENNY: Ja! And there was no one that could help me. I go to my mother
and she say no, I made my bed, I
must
sleep in it.
INTERVIEWER:
Your mother said that?
JENNY:
Jaa. His mother again praying. And I got tired of praying, really. Even now I don't I don't really
worry
with going to church and that, because it just made me, you know not feel for church, nothing.
Because
you praying and praying and praying and nothing's helping, this man is rather getting worse.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JENNY: And he only came right after I left him. He stopped
drinking, he's no more drinking.
INTERVIEWER:
So, he was drinking as well.
22

JENNY: Ja… He was smoking dagga, he left all that things, but still. I don't think I'll ever go back to that
man
again because the life I had was nothing nice, it was horrible. I mean for seventeen years.
INTERVIEWER:
It's a long time.
JENNY: Oh it was. It was. It was, that was now
a living hell… I always say I wouldn't even wish
it on my enemy, that type of life.. I don't.
INTERVIEWER:
Uhm.
JENNY:
It was a horrible life.
INTERVIEWER: And as horrible as it was,
you couldn't go to anybody.
JENNY: I couldn't. I mean there was no one, I was stupid. There was no one I could turn to.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY:
If it weren't for, now coming back to to the fourth time my child tried to commit suicide, we took
her to doctor. Doctor in Silver Street.
This doctor referred me to a psychologist there by the Centre for
Peace Action. And uh her name was
Monica. So, not me actually, Nicole. So, she called me in. Nicole
always used to go for, you know, counselling. And uh then she called me one day and she said to me: "Did
you know your daughter's blaming you for her suffering?" That time we were still in the house.
INTERVIEWER:
Right, and still married.
JENNY:
Ja. And uh then he said, no man, this Monica said "She blame you for her suffering, she say you
can do something about it". I said: "I can do something but where do we go to". You know they tried a
shelter, that time the Centre had a shelter, but I don't know what went on, they even wanted to send her to
uh a school, a boarding school
INTERVIEWER:
Nicole?
JENNY:
Ja, uh to get her away from Neil. And um, so then uh Welfare, I don't know how they got to hear
of this
business, they came in and then they said "No, she's now in the Welfare's hands".
INTERVIEWER: Wow.
JENNY: Ja, there came two ladies to
the house…(Silence).
INTERVIEWER:
What did you do.
JENNY: Ho, I had such a fright. This lady said um, if they can find out that he is actually sexually abusing
her, then they'll…I'm locked up that
same day.
INTERVIEWER:
So they were blaming you?
JE NNY: Ja. So they spoke to Nicole and Nicole said no. So this one told me… So this one told me , she
said: "Jy kan dankie sê otherwise was jy nou opgesluit".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm… How did you feel being blamed for it?
JENNY: I felt horrible (whispering). I thought no, but it was
true. You know, afterwards, she spoke to me
I thought: "No man, it is up to me, I mean what mother will see
her child suffering like that?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
23

JENNY: And that's when I decided no, enough is enough and I went. (Silence).
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So it was the the fact that Nicole went to the counsellor and the counsellor
said
Nicole
is blaming you…
JENNY: Ja, the psychologist. And
the uh… She spoke to a lawyer. She asked what I want to do. I said, no,
now I want to get divorced.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So, that made you decide finally.
JENNY: Jaa. So…. She said we can't get divorced while I'm still staying there. So I said I don't know
what am I gonna do. Something happened like the weekend, and he slept out
and the Friday night, so he
cam e home the… I don't know when, but I weren't there, me and Nicole like Saturday we used to go to
Shoprite,
you know, sometimes with my mother and them to Pick and Pay, you know. He had a car, he
wouldn't
even take me to go and buy groceries or meat and things, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
So it wasn't just physical abuse…
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER:
Its like economically also.
JENNY: I was all the
abuses you can think of - verbal, sexually abused also and uh physical, mentally. I
had everything. There
was times when he used to shout me and I would sit and I would shiver just like this.
Really, I just start shivering. And I can't even speak and there
was times I even used to get myself speaking
to m yself in the street. And Nicole just say: "Mommy!", or then I'm sitting there in the house and I start
speaking
to myself. And I thought, you know (silence)…
INETRVIEWER:
It was having a really bad effect on you.
JENNY:
Ja, it was. And um I think this… in fact I think this psychologist really had a lot to do with it.
INTERVIEWR:
Ja.
JENNY: She like actually calmed me down because I was in a state, I didn't
know am I coming or going.
INTERVIEWER:
You were confused.
JENNY: Mm. But now the only
thing was Nicole, I only thought of her, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay
JENNY: What is the best for her. Because I was so confused, I didn't know, you know what to do. And
the n she spoke to me and she said either this or that,
you know.
INTERVIEWER:
She gave you options… (saying it at the same time as Jenny).
JE NNY:.. Options, ja. And um… then the only one I thought of is just getting Nicole away from this man,
you know. I thought because she brought
something to my attention, that I me myself I didn't really think
of
it when
I was in this abuse. I though uh… I mean my father never ever smacked my mother, we didn't come
out of such a house.
INTERVIEWER:
Right. So it was something very new to you.
24

JENNY: It was… it was . It was a shock, even when he first started hitting me I thought: "Ho, what did I
do? " Because that time, we knew of if a woman is bad then a man hit her. And I thought I'm bad or what
am I doing that’s bad.
INTERVIEWER: So your mother
wasn't hit because she was a good woman, you thought?
JENNY:
Ja.
IN TERVIEWER: And you are now
bad?
JE NNY: Ja, I thought but what am I doing that's bad? I don't, you know, worry with other men…. What
am I doing that's… I, I just couldn't think, but I am the bad one, why's he, why's he hitting me? In the
meantime
I didn't, you know, you don't really think of this is abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: Because after he hit you, then he tell you how much he loves you, you know that story.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
I use to fall for the joke.(Smiling).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: "But Jenny, you know I love you." Afterwards
you know, when this woman I spoke, this
psychologist, spoke to me I thought: "No man, but it's true
this is now…"Because then she said: "No man
this
is abuse".
INTERVIEWER: So it was important that somebody define it as abuse.
JENNY:
Ja… Because I thought I'm now, you know, I'm really to be blamed.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JENNY: For everything that went wrong now, because he used to always blame me. He used
to he even
used to go
tell his mother. Hismother used to come tell me.
INTERVIEWER: So, all over the show you were getting the message that you were wrong.
JENNY: Ja, the wrong person. Even
the people in the street the way him and this girlfriend of his used to
make
me bad and I afterwards was so scared of people I avoided people. You know, I became like a
introvert.
INTERVIEWER: Mm, you withdrew.
JENNY:
And I just stayed in the house. I stayed away from people, you know. I couldn't even go to my
mother,
and if I talk to my mother then it's a whole fighting.
INTERVIEWER:
Tell me more about that.
JENNY: He didn't want me to go to my mother and them. Because I would skinner, you know how they
speak. I'm carry stories, and then I don't tell them nothing,
I mean I was to shy.
INTERVIEWER:
Did you think that they would blame you, your own family?
JE NNY: Ja, no my mother and them did say so. Okay, now I know I am a
person who's very fast, I get
25

quick cross, and they used to say, no it's trough me, you know. So jee
INTERVIEWER:
So your family also blamed you.
JENNY: Ja, so I had no one to turn to. That is why I stuck out that
abuse for seventeen years. But that was
the last year after the psychologist told me. And that weekend when he slept out and he wanted to hit me
and I hit him back that day.
INTERVIEWER: Oh! Did you do that
before?
JENNY: No, never! This man is tall, he wears a size twelve. And
you can think for yourself.
INTERVIEWER:
And you're such a small person.
JENNY: What could I do? And he used to kick me with that boots , nê it got iron in front, he used to kick
me , even Nicole also he used to kick her with it. And uh I think that is why I also hated him so because I
though: "Jenie, I didn't go through this".
INTERVIEWER:
As a child.
JENNY: Why must I let my child suffer like that. But
the psychologist really made me feel guilty.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
Oh, she did lay it hard on me.
INTERVIEWER:
Nê.
JENNY: She did. She said she told me if it was her child
she would have gone home already. She's not
telling
me to leave but…
INT ERVIEWER: If she was in that position.
JENNY:
Ja, she said she wouldn't let her child suffer like that. And I though but its true, imagine what
would
my mother had done if my father, she would have go with us, you know I don't think she would have
stuck out that abuse. And any other
woman for that matter.
INTERVIEWER:
So you were feeling a lot of guilt?
JENNY:
I was, I was, that is when I decided, now Jenny its time to make a move, and I did. And uh, so I
spoke
to the lawyer, that's when I was out already, out of the house. I was for a year and four months away
from
him when I got divorced.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY: Because they… you know, if it’s a free divorce they take their own time.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So the delay wasn't on your side.
JENNY: No, no on their side, because they
want everything, they wanted a marriage certificate everything
you know.
INTERVIEWER: So you were separated for a year.
JENNY: Um, but that lawyer did lay down on him. He told him. Now the only thing is he doesn't want
to
move
out of the house.
26

INTERVIEWER: So he didn't move out.
JENNY:
Hu- uh.
INTERVIEWER: You had
to move out.
JE NNY: He refused to. No, I was out of the house. I was lucky there, you know I had a good lawyer.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JE NNY: And uh because usually if you go out of the house and then, you loose a lot, you get to loose a lot.
But I didn't… because of this that
Nicole tried to commit suicide.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: You see that all counted.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Made your case
stronger.
JE NNY: Ja, ja. Because they still wanted me to go for marriage, and I said: "You can go yourself."
INTERVIEWER:
Go for marriage counselling?
JENNY:
Ja, ja.
INTERVIEWER:
And you refused?
JENNY:
Ja, ja.
INTERVIEWER:
What was his response?
JENNY: I must go for marriage counselling first, they can't just divorce us.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JENNY: Then I said: "Well then you go yourself, because
I am definitely
not going."
INTERVIEWER:
So you were not interested in counselling.
JENNY: Yes. I said: "I am not interested
in going back to that man again". I mean, you know, if you're
aw ay,
if you out, then you think now, you know, all the things that he had done to me were wrong, you
know.
While you're there you don't think because he come and say sorry.
INTER VIEWER:
So its important that time to get out and be on your own.
JE NNY: Ja, it is because a lot of times then he say uh "sorry I love you" and you're going to fall for it.
INTERVIEWER:
They confuse you.
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER:
So when you were on your own, you could think?
JENNY:
U-hum.
27

INTERVIEWER: Clearly.
JENNY: Ja . And uh he made me think as
if I'm the sick person.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh, uh.
JENNY:
I'm the one that's sick.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: And then the psychologist
said: "No Jenny, it's not you, he's the one that's sick, he's the one that's
abusing you". Then only I learned
from, I didn’t know of verbal abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse, I
didn't
know of nothing.
INTERVIEWER:
It seems like the your psychologist played a big role in…
JENNY: She did. She did, she did.
INTERVIEWER:
Even teaching you all these things.
JE NNY: U-hum. She did because I didn't know about it.
INTERVIEWER:
Um, um.
JENNY: People always used to say: "Laat vang hom". Where you walking
down there then he get you
half
way and he kick your guts out.
INTERVIEWER:
Um, um.
JENNY:
And drag you home.
IN TERVIEWER: So you were scared to take action because you're gonna pay for it again.
JENNY: Ja, ja. That's all the things that
I used think of, and not working because he used to keep me from
working, he didn't want me to go and work.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.
JENNY:
So I had to maar that, you know, now I still haven't really got experience, you know, working
experience.
But I'm busy picking up there by the Centre (Both interviewer and Jenny laughs). I'm
picking
up a lot.
INTERVIEWER: So now that you're out you have time to really grow.
JENNY: Ee- ja, …But ay… you know, if
I if I still sit and I think of he stole a lot of my life. He took a
lot way from me.
INTERVIEWER:
How does that make you feel?
JENNY: Jee! Oh boy, I hate him.
INETRVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY:
Even now that Nicole
is getting married I hate him even more. Because even her, you know she
speak like that, like she don't
want nothing from him. She don't even want him to help with the wedding.
28

She say she wants nothing, nothing from that man. But he'll have to help because she was only working
part
-time, she's no more working, nê.
INETRVIEWER:
Oh, Okay, okay.
JENNY:
And uh so she's at home now.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY: So she's looking for work.
INTERVIEWER: Um. But she doesn't want him
involved.
JENNY: Hu- uh. He's a horrible person, man. You know he's like a show-off.
INTERVIEWER: Um.
JENNY: Everything must just revolve around him. He'll do it because you know he wants to feel
important. And uh that's not gonna
work.
INTERVIEWER:
That's the way he behaved in your marriage also? Um, um. You're not important and he
is?
JENNY: Even where my family was concerned he wanted
to be the important person, you know. I,I,I
don't
know, okay, I know he came out of a house where he was abused.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY:
And I think I felt sorry for him me also.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JE NNY: So I though even…So though I can… give him what he lost out on.
INTERVIEWER:
Alright.
JENNY: He didn't really have motherly
love.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: And uh he used to see his stepfather
abusing his mother. And when the stepfather abused the
mother then he gets to out, winter time
or what then he must go sleep outside or by people, people must call
him in
let him come sleep there because if he don't want him, then he don't want him there. You know that's
the abuse he again went through and I, me in turn thought I can…
give it to him. And the meantime it
affected me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Till when I lost out on a lot of things.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. So you tolerated a lot because you knew that he had experienced abuse.
JENNY:
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Maybe you can
make it better.
29

JENNY: I though,… ja, that's what I tried. But I couldn't… Because afterwards then I realized, no man,
this man is sick. Because I mean no normal person will carry on like that. You know, like there was times
when
he would come to you. You know I even remember times like when he had like sex outside…
INTREVIEWER:
Mm, mm.
JENNY: And then there were sometimes he used
to come, his whole zip is open. Sometimes he used to
come with
a light trouser and then his trouser is full of blood here in front. Oh I, I saw a lot. And then,
believe
it or not, he used to hit me to wash that clothes.
INTERVIEWER:
You had to…
JENNY: Ja! Ja he used to hit me.
INTERVIEWER: How were you ablt to do that?
JENNY: I just had to but I hated him and this
woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh, uh.
JENNY:
I just hated them. I couldn't tolerate them.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. And this was
going on all of these eighteen years.
JENNY: Ja, …ja…They just carried on as if life belonged to them.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: Not thinking who they're hurting in the process.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: I don't know… And now
she's again involved with another married man. (Silence). Breaking up
his house
also, nê.
INTERVIEWER: Um.
JE NNY: I don't know. (Silence).
And her family, the uncles used to come there, come swear at me also.
INTERVIEWER:
Jee.
JENNY: Ja, her uncles.
INTERVIEWER: And your family, were they aware of the affair?
JENNY:
My family, ja, they were. But they of that type, they were I think, in fact my father didn't really
know what's going on, my mother
used to hide a lot away from my father.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Do you think it would have made a difference?
JENNY: It would have. It would have. I think my father would have really put it to a stop.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY:
Because there was a time…and then he also hit me, then my father came immediately up for him.
30

INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY: You know, and then it stopped
for a long time and then it started again, when we went and live in
extension
six. And this girl didn't live far from us.
INTERVIEWER:
So it was even worse?
JENNY: Ja. You must know her mother, when she walks
past the house, then she walks with the children
past. " There your Daddy lives", you know she used to carry
on like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Um, um.
JENNY: Um. And then you must know they could not speak right English. I used to laugh at them
(laughs). Oh, I just couldn't be bothered
of those people, really.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm. So what stopped you from going to your father directly?
JE NNY: My mother. Because, you know how it is, you would rather go speak to your mother.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure. Sure.
JENNY:
My father was a very hard person.
INT ERVIEWER: Okay… But you knew he wouldn't tolerate it if you told him.
JENNY: No he wouldn't. Now, I used to say, no, if I speak
to my mother, my mother will speak to my
father.
Now she didn't.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm, mm.
JENNY:
She hid away a lot.
INTERVIEWER: Do you know
why?
JENNY:
I don't know.
INT ERVIEWER: Still don't understand it?
JENNY:
Still trying to (laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Nê?
JENNY: Uh. And … there was one year when he hit me, he hit me ugly. And uh I was working part-time it
was January. And you know summer time, when the weather
change just like that, it was hot the morning,
all I had
on was just a dress. And uh here late afternoon it
started raining. I don't know, that hard… rain that
don' t stop. And uh I was stranded at the shop and I was praying, you know, (whispering) "Can't someone
come fetch me". Because I haven't even got a umbrella, nothing. And you must know that in town shops is
far from the buss terminus. And uh,
okay, then my brother came, you know, with the work's combi, jee and
I think: "This is our lucky day", you
know, there's a lift. And uh, drop me in front of the house, come there
my brother
in-law is alone at home, you know, small, he and Nicole like grew together and uh he was about
nine,
see and Nicole about six. And he tell me no, he went up to the bus terminus, now, to go and fetch me,
with
a umbrella.
INTERVIEWER:
Your husband?
31

JENNY: Ja. And I said: "Oh, boy, here am I in the house, this man is going to come perform.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY: And he come in and I said
oh no, I got a lift with Tiekie. Uh, uh, that man started hitting me…
with
that
umbrella, he started hitting me. And that was non stop.
INTERVIEWER:
Sh.
JE NNY: And you are hitting and he even tore the clothes of me. And uh then the rain stopped and the sun
was shining
and he wanted to drag
me just so bare outside. Ja, he wanted to drag me just so bare. So my
brother-in-law
is crying: "Boeta, los vir Jenny" and you know, and he's carrying on. He's not worried about
the child…
INTERVIEWER:
In front of the child…
JENNY: Ja, in front of the child. And uh, now you must know, he even tore my bra of… And uh, he's just
busy tearing there, and uh here he wanna take me to my
friend, she lived by the flats so we came home
together, you know. I said: "You can at least let me put
something on", and he's smacking me there. And
uh, he's laughing… So you see, there's things I wouldn't forget, because he hits till I'm crying and he's
laughing
.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JENNY:
And uh, then
uh, I you know, then I pull I grab the overall, no Nathan brought the overall to me,
shame and imagine
he's six.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
And he say: "Uh Jenny" and he bring it over and I haven't got a bra nothing on, and you must
know
he even tried to tear the panty also.
INTERVIEWER: He was humiliating
you?
JENNY:
Ja. You know, he really, he really stripped me of a lot of things you know. And uh, he… and as I
am walking, now to my friend, he's walking and smacking me outside and all the people is looking and
swearing
me of a "hoer meit" and all that.
INTERVIEWER:
And nobody does nothing?
JENNY:
Ja. No they knew him if, he carry on then he's gonna carry on more.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: So they maar just looked at him and then looked away and walk on, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: He used to like a audience. And uh…when he… you know then we went in there. He just
came in
the re,
he didn't say anything, he just started smacking me there in the women's flat. And he kicked me and
we were flying there against the furniture
and he walked out.
INTERVIEWER:
So it was quite severe?
JENNY: Ja. And uh, so she was also shocked. "Jenny, wat gaan aan, wat het jy gedoen?" And uh me,
haa i shame, I'm thinking but now
how can she ask me "wat het ek gedoen"
32

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY: The way he was performing.
Ek sê: "Nee, omdat hy daar bo gaan wag het en ons het met Tiekie
gekom,
nou sê hy ons het gaan hoer en al al daai goedte. Hy wil jou man ook gaan sê. He wanna come tell
her husband also. But the husband saw her get out of the combi, and the husband knew my brother. And uh,
so, you know, the next day, then that was the fifteenth of December, the sixteenth, so I went down with
Nathan,
it was a holiday. So Nathan told Nicole and uh… so my mother came and she touched by my back
and I said: "No". So she asked: "What's it?" And I said: "No man, must have bumped into a…"Because I
thought
what's the use telling them, because they do nothing about it.
INTERVIEWER:
So you felt it was useless confiding in somebody.
JENNY: Ja. So, I thought ag, I even used to ask God when is He gonna to take me away.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
I mean you can't suffer like that, year in year out and nothing is happening.
INTERVIEWER: So you were quite
desperate.
JE NNY: Ja. And uh, then he…Then uh, then my mother said: "No, show your father, show your father
how your back
look, because then Nicole told my mother.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay
JENNY:
Because she was so small, five years.
INTERVIEWER: Uh.
JENNY: So she told my mother. An
uh, she's crying, she always used to cry when he hit me, because he
was crying when he told her. And uh the two of them is sitting
and crying now.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: And uh. Okay, then uh…then my mother said…then I took of my blouse, I can't mos see behind.
Ooh!
INTERVIEWER:
So you didn't know how bad it was.
JENNY: Hu-uh. I just heard my father
said: "Oh my God, what type of man is that". If you… like that
was
so
bad, if you touch on it then the skins like peal away. That's how he used, that's how he used to, that's
of the
cord, you know the cords of the kettles?
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
But now that was the wire was out. Imagine now that.
INTERVIEWER:
Even worse.
JENNY: Ja. He was doing that. And I just… My mother asked,
my father asked me, now why didn't I tell
him long
ago. Then, I was shocked and I thought: " How?"
INTERVIEWER: Because you thought
your mother was…
JENNY: Ja, I'm telling my mother, then…then he asked why did I still get married
to him. Then I say; "
33

Now how can Daddy… I got married to the man, daddy then told Mommy to take me to court, so we could
get married.
INTER VIEWER:
Did he start hitting you before you got married?
JENNY: Ja. Nicole was a premature baby, seven months and, you know, they keep them
a month in
hospital.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JE NNY: She got out of hospi… she just came out of hospital the Monday, the Friday, then he hit
me….Then
he hit me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Not even married yet.
JENNY: Ja! And then I didn't want to get married. My mother said, no, my father said we must get
married. In the mean time my father didn't know about it because
my father, I couldn't understand why is
my father
is cross for me.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, when you think…
JENNY: When I got married. Ja. Then
I though: " How? How's my father behaving so much", you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
In the meantime I didn't understand what's going on. And I though ag this people just haven't got
my time,
they're not worried. Then I told my father: "How Daddy then said I must get married, how can
Daddy ask me now why did I get married
in the first place when Daddy said I must get married".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
So I said if I had known that time I wouldn't have looked at the pig again. It was terrible
man,
you know, Feroza, I really… (Close to tears). It was ugly, really…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Really. When I sit and think of that…
INTERVIEWER:
It was horrifying.
JENNY: Ja! It was. Like you sit and
you see here's a plate coming flying towards you, you must just dive.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: Like one Christmas eve, me and Nicole was very cross. You know how you working, you know
how's
it Christmas eve.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: You cleaning and clean everything,… and it was raining so all my bedding, you know, and we
also didn't have time to do bedding
because he was at home. You know, and when he's at home, you can do
nothing the way he's carrying on. And uh… and then he used to … you know, perform there and its past
twelve
and you must know I'm using all my plates now, and then he came back, he come and he wants
food.
Okay, I take the plates out,
I warm the food, you know I gave him the food. And then you must still
cook, other people don't cook before
it's something big. No I had to cook… food, not just braai, I had to
cook food. You know a plate of food.
And uhm, so it weren't hot enough, and you must know our house
34

was also very cold and once the meat, you know, the fat of the meat, turns white, you struggle to get it hot.
INETRVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: And then he threw me with
the plate of food, he said it's shit. I mean we just finished cleaned.
INTERVIEWER:
So put in so much effort, hard work…
JENNY: Ja. All of that food against the walls and that. I mean your carpets
is washed he's sitting there
with his dirty
feet on the carpets, you know, that's the type of man he was.
INTERVIEWER:
Just total disrespect.
JENNY: Ja! He was spiteful, he was… man he was everything that a beast can be.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY:
He was like a beast.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JE NNY: And uh……So, Nicole got up and she started doing washing, past twelve, and she was standing
and doing washing. And she had put me to bed.
INTERVIEWER: She was taking
care of you.
JENNY:
Ja. No, I think she just had enough and she…so he wanted to smack her then she said: "Daddy
wo uldn't smack me". Then she picked up the glasses and the food, you know .
INTERVIEWER:
How old was she then?
JENNY:
No, she was in standard nine, the same year she failed.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: You know and he told her also, he swore her also of how she failed and all that jazz, not thinking
tha t he was the cause of it. That man was just, you know, there's really no words to describe him, a pig.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: A pig is even better than him.
There's no words.
INTERVIEWER:
So how did you make sense of this abuse. So you thought it was because of this
woman.
JENNY: No, it was, because before
he met her, you know he weren't like that, he weren't like that. Do you
know what it feels like if somebody
come in to the house and you see that hatred in their eyes. And that
man's
eyes is even standing still in his head.
INETRVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Really! He
was like an untidy thing, you know. Then he come in, you must see how he look.
When he go out.
He used to every night when he come from work then he wash and dress him. Ja and
when
he come home, then he look filthy, then I must wash it. If I don't wash it, then he hit me. Mm. Even
the bloody things, you know. She just had no pride, you know. You get that type of women that just, I don't
know
what …I don't know how to describe it, but no, our mothers brought us up very strictly, we're quite
35

proud of it. You must have respect for your body.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JE NNY:
That woman don't think.
I don't know how did her mother bring her up but… I don't know
(silence).
You know we had a shed …in the, in the, it's part of the house, there's a shed. Now the shed is
next
to my room.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: You know there was one
night, they were actually in the shed. And I was lying and listening
"Cring
-ca-ching", ja.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: I was lying and listening to it. But you wouldn't believe what went through my mind. If I had
paraffin, I would have set it alight,
really. That's how I hated that man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Really! There was one night they were in the car, busy in the car and I stood looking
at them.
The y had the car parked in our yard.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
The car was parked at our back door.
INTERVIEWER: So, he didn't
even hide it?
JENNY: No. And he saw me looking and he came in and he came and hit me.
INTERVIEWER:
Because you were looking?
JENNY: Ja, but it was not for that. For something else in the
house.
INTEVIEWER:
So he made an excuse.
JE NNY: Ja, sommer the food… rubbish, but he was eating the whole day of it.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JE NNY: And then he decided that time I don't cook nice food, I cook horrible food, and you wouldn't
believe me. You know, in the week other people, other
women don't bother cooking. You know there's
som e days you just don't feel like cooking.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JENNY: And you have sandwiches
and that. We didn't have that. Right through Saturday to Saturday…
Sunday
to Sunday there was a plate of food. Like in the week, you know, you must cook everyday descent
food.
Okay, that I understood because he must take, he used to take food to work.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: Until there was one time when I found out he's not even going to work.
INTERVIEWER:
This when you making all this effort.
36

JENNY: Yes, that I'm packing so in. Then there was again a time when uh they working like in the veld.
Okay,
that I understand. First he used to take food, but Sundays the man wanted pudding. And on
Mondays,
he wants pudding also for lunch. He had his food, then he wants pudding, ja, any type of
pudding,
there must be pudding also, and then he wants fruits- a banana, a apple and a orange, right. And
then
there must be sweets also. And then that's when I found out, no, him and this girl is having pick -nick.
INETRVIEWER:
With your…
JENNY: With her children, ja. Like Fridays
when he had pay, he did go shopping with them,....Not
wo rried
have I got food there in the house,
no he's not worried, because he's mos gone for the whole
weekend.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY: He was not worried if there's food in the house.
INTERVIEWER: Jenny, how did you
cope with things.
JENNY: I… got used to it. You wouldn't believe it, you get used to it. The
only thing I hated was when he
star ted
with Nicole. You know I thought I, I can take it, but my child I mean it's his child. It's a different
thing
if he was step.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
But he's not step. I mean your own blood child and you can, you know, treat her like that. And uh,
when this child was small, you
know how this man loved the child. I couldn't even hit her and then he used
to h it me, you know, that's how that man was over that child. But this woman had to come change
everything,
just with her stories.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
She used to make up a lot of stories and he used to fall for the joke. Then he used to believe her.
He,
you know… he just didn't worry. (Silence).
You know, if you think of it, you know somebody's hitting
you then he's still laughing. That means that's
not, he's not…
INTERVIEWER: He has the intention
of doing it.
JENNY:
Ja! It's not unintentional, which means he's doing it intentional.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: You know?
INTREVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY:
And uh…the way he done it was as if he wanted to, he want to hurt me.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JE NNY: And uh… you know,
I just didn't think of it like that. Not until that woman spoke to me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm
JE NNY: And said: "This is mos nonsense". Its not his body! Its my body that's getting hurt. To think you
know.
I actually felt like somebody that's waking up.
37

INTERVIEWER: Okay . So it's like you were asleep all the time.
JE NNY: Ja! And I think I know what a lot of women are going through, that still sit in relationships like
that.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JE NNY: It's so as if they're asleep. That is why I wouldn't like other people say: "Ooh, if I'm you, I'll leave
him"
. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
INTERVIEWER:
You know it's much more difficult than that.
JENNY: Ja. Ja. I wouldn't. Because mm… A lot of them said: "Oh if I were you, I'll do this and I'll do
that
that and I'll do that. You can't! You didn't go through that things.
INTERVIEWER:
Does it make you angry when people say that.
JENNY: Ja, it do. No really I get… and I tell them. I really I tell them. I said have you
ever tried putting
yourself in this women's shoes in stead of I'll do this and I'll do that. Put your, put yourself
in that women's
sho es. And if they still talk more then I say: "You know, I come from that type of life".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Then I tell them now.
INTERVIEWER: So, you think people, generally don't understand?
JENNY: They don't. The person that's in it… knows what's going on. It… is so, man it is really as if
you're
asleep.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You don't realize what's happening to you. Not unless something… You know you get that wakeup
call.
INETERVIEWER: Okay.
JE NNY: Then only you realize: "But this pig, what has what has he been doing to me all the time", you
know.
INETRVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY: And then you realize, no man,
I'm not this man's child. I'm not his boxing cloves or boxing bags.
INETRVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: You know this punching
bags that they usually do karate and that. Or his football or something.
An d then you really start hating him,
now, like I hate him today. I'll speak to him but… I don't think I'll
ever even
let him touch on me. Because if that man touch on me then I, oh I still get the cold shivers.
INTEVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
I still get that.
38

INTERVIEWER: So you have some pretty strong emotions still.
JENNY: Ja. No he left some deep scares in me. And but he left it so that I… don't know
will I…. Other
women
it's easy for them to take another man but I don't know about me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: No, he left some deep scares
there. I don't think I'll…In a hurry, I don't know of in time to come,
I mean I'm forty two this year (laughing).
INTERVIEWER:
Still young.
JE NNY: No, not really young. I'm nearly over the hill (Both researcher and Jenny laughs). Will I
be able
to….
INTERVIEWER:
So you think about it- will you be able to have another relationship?
JENNY: Ja. I mean,…
no I mean you, you want to try it and then oh boy then it flew, something pushes
up in
you. Then I start getting rude, I become defensive.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
You know.
INTERVIEWER: So you're much more
careful now around men.
JENNY: Very! Too much. I think
too much.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.
JENNY: I think I'm now too much ( laughs). There's times when I get cross for myself;
"Jenny it weren't
nec essary to be so rude to the man was just being friendly",
you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: I get cross for myself because sometimes it's unnecessary.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So you realize it's a part of … of the abuse that you went…
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER:
Sort of the after effects of that.
JENNY: Ja. But I think it's now… very long that its… still working on me, and you know, will it ever be
able to leave me, I don't know. Like, when I heard Nicole is getting married, boy I cried ( laughs).
INTERVIEWER: Oh,
is it?
JENNY: I cried, I thought: "Jee, my child, my one and only child.
Must I now loose her to someone
else",
you know for him to do what I went through
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
But I told him that, nê. When they were still going out, but they're going out long now, four years.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
39

JENNY: But I told him, I said: "You know, you know what type of life Nicole come from".
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: "I don't think you… wanna
do anything to her, nê?"
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: Because I think I will really
hurt him ugly.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So you're taking a very different approach
from what your mother did. You
are…really
letting him know.
JENNY:
That's just it! I'm not doing what my mother do.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: And I don't think I'm going to allow any other person to go through
what I'm going through. That
is why I really… I am strongly…I would
like to just work with abused women.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm. Okay.
JENNY:
I would like to work in that field. I am seriously thinking about it
INTERVIEWER: Okay. (Silence). You think you understand, you would understand what they're going
through?
JENNY: I will. And I think I will be able to give them very good advice. What to do and what
not to do.
Wh at to say and what not to say.
INTERVIEWER:
Tell me a bit about that good advice and what to say.
JENNY:
Uh. No, like specially if he come in, like, okay, you get some of them that don't want to get out of
the relationship.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: Okay, there I know I'll be able to advice them, especially like where there children
is concerned.
If you
see that child is becoming difficult, you know, take them to see a psychologist, you know. Don't sit
and wait… until something
bad happens.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So look for signs.
JENNY: Ja. Not like I did. I would like them…you know I would like to give them advise on
anything-
on their children, on themselves (clapping her hands), on signs.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: On what to see in a man. If he's coming to …like look for trouble and what to do, you know. For
instance, like uh, we sitting and watching t.v. and he comes
and he put off the t.v. "You want to sit and
wa tch t.v.
the whole day". Fine, just get up, don't say anything, go to the kitchen, start dishing up, do
anything,
but don't like aggravate him more.
INT ERVIEWER: Okay. So did you also use that kind of behaviour to try and avoid it, things from getting
out of hand.
40

JENNY: But I used to get cross.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: I used to put the t.v. on again.
INTERVIEWER:
Alright.
JENNY:
And that's when…
INT ERVIEWER: So you defied him.
JENNY: Ja. That's when he used to get actually now, you know they, they look for something.
INTERVIEWER: Right. So you're saying don't give them something.
JENNY:
Don't give them something. But on the other hand, don't let them sit on your head.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Don't, don't give him that but show him, you know…when he's cooled off you gonna tell him
very nice,
the reason why you, why you done that why you didn't put the t.v on, and so you, you give him
options
also.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
What do he want and what don't he want. Don't like, from the beginning, don't let a man control
you from the word go.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You set your goals.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:You tell him from the word
go: "Listen here it's so and so from my side, you tell me what is
you rs".
Like that you learn to respect each other's feelings, what they want and what they don't want. You
work
on it together.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY: Don't just, you know...go into a thing blindfolded.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. You think that's what you did?
JENNY: I did. I didn't… I mean
… We grew up learning like this: "My mother never got a smack from
my father. We didn't know what was
swear words. I learned to swear when I got married to this man… The
way he used to swear me, I started swearing
him back, but the swear words couldn't come out because we
weren't used to swearing. It felt funny coming out of your mouth.
INTERVIEWER: It was quite shocking being exposed to this.
JENNY:
Ja. I mean I couldn't swear. Afterwards, as years went on, then only I started swearing him
back.
Ja. That man even use to swear Nicole of the pads he must buy her.
41

INETREVIEWER: Okay.
JE NNY: Ja. That's the type of… and where in the street.
INTERVIEWER:
Really? Humiliating her.
JENNY: Ja. He knows she sick and then he say you know,
uh, uh, can I use the words?
INTERVIEWER:
Go ahead.
JENNY: Then he used to say; "You your
little tiekieline with your bloed poes". That's the things he used
to s wear
the child. And she couldn't take it anymore because how...you know she just thought of how the
people is looking at her.
INTERVIEWER:
Exactly. Shame.
JENNY: Such people, thy must get
a kind of uh centre for them, where they must send them away. They
must
go through a lot of counselling.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: (Silence). Because when he had to go for counselling, he told Monica there was nothing wrong
with
him.
INTERVIEWER: So you actually
took him with you for counselling?
JENNY:
She called him, I didn't go. You see he thought this was like a marriage counsellor.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY:
You know for me like to come back home.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: But in the meantime, the morning
early I was there. And I told Monica why I don't want to.
Because, look, if we walk out of that centre's yard, I'm on my own. There's no one to protect me and I know
he would have forced me to go back home with him.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
And… perhaps by now I wouldn't have even had a daughter.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Perhaps by then she would have got right what she's been
trying to do all the time. Trying to
commit suicide. She would have really
killed herself. Because that's how I felt a lot of times. You know
there was one night…I uh…you know
I was just to cross, you know I was just very cross. I think that
was… before I left him, that's when… you know, it's I think it's after she spoke to me when
I...you know,
then
the anger only came out, you know it?
INT ERVIEWER: After speaking to the psychologist.
JENNY:
Ja. Then only I started getting cross. You know I'm lying and I'm thinking of this man and he's
lying
and snoring there next to me. And I got up and fetch a knife, you know (rapid, angry tone of voice).
And
I though, you know, and I'm… you know, you know the hatred in me that time. And I got this knife
42

and I looked at this man. Then I thought, no man, the blood. I can't clean the blood, it's gonna go on me
also.
You know the way I hated him, I didn't even want his blood to come on me.
INTERVIEWER:
You didn't want it to taint you.
JENNY: Ja. That's how I felt. I thought no man, this man's blood
is gonna come on me. How am I gonna
get it of me, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JE NNY: I have to scrub all those things.
INTERVIEWER: So that's what kept you from doing it.
JENNY: Ja. That!
INTERVIEWER: But the hatred was strong enough that you could have
done it?
JENNY: The hatred was. I even
had Ratex. I even had Retax. And I did intend putting it in his food. I just
thought how. I didn't know how because Ratex is big… and pink. The people will see. You know you'll
see
there's
that things in. I didn't know how.
INTERVIEWER:
So you were pretty desperate at times.
JENNY:
I was. I was. I really wanted that man dead. Even Nicole,
also. Because the …third time… she
trie d to commit suicide she drank… Man, we were sitting and watching t.v. and uh… it's on a Friday
nig ht… and we knew, ag he's not coming home, eleven o'clock, we knew he's not coming home, we not
worried. So we now, you know, at peace, watching lekkker t.v. Now before
he went out, he was performing
again, so with
her, you know. And uh, Nicole made coffee "Ma want tee?" and she made us tee. Now I'm
watching
t.v, you know I'm not checking what's going on. That time it was Studio Mix.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
And uh…I'm watching but… I see Nicole's coffee looks so funny, it's black but white. So I said
Nicole
isn't there enough milk. "No there is I didn't want a lot of milk", you know. And there's something,
you know that uh what you call it…that like uh… … hunch.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:
And this thing is nagging, man, look at the coffee, you know there's something that's just telling
me look at the… And you know a long time I weren't worried but… something is pressing me, look at the
coffee.
And I… put my tee down and I looked and I said: "Nicole,… but what's wrong with your coffee,
why it looks so funny?" And… Nicole is start shivering, Nicole is pale already,
because it was, the coffee
was so
much, then it was, it was in such a mug (pointing to a cup on the table). And uh… the mug is half
already. "Nicole, please, what is in this coffee?" She said: "How do Mommy know?" I said: " No I don't
know, but it's something that's…nagging
here on… What is in that coffee?" Tablets. Capsules.
INTERVIEWER:
Shish.
JENNY:
I don't know how much capsules was in that coffee. Imagine hot coffee. And you know hot coffee
and,
and antibiotics it … goes very…it spreads very fast through your system. I know another man nearly
had a heart attack. He's heart nearly went and stopped. And you know that Nicole's… tongue… was already
swollen?
And I jumped and I thought: "Oh God this man isn't here, what am I gonna do and it's all
through
him."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
43

JENNY: You know.
INTERVIEWER: So immediately,
you linked it to him.
JENNY: Ja, Ja. And uh… No then I already she was at this sessions already.
INTERVIEWER:
Already going for counselling.
JENNY: And uh… No she weren't yet. She weren't yet. And uh…
I know I got cross for him. And I
tho ught:
"Jenie, it's through this man, where's he now. He's not here, he's with that woman and, you know, I
must
struggle alone".
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JENNY: And I'm by the front door then I'm by the back door, you know. Nobody, and I'm thinking what
am I gonna do, my child is gonna
die there inside. And uh.. man I got, you know, this packets of soups.
Then I remember they say soup is thick…you
now, you must get something down their throat. And milk. I
first
gave her milk. The milk was running so down, it couldn't go in because her tongue is swollen already.
And
uh… Feroza, did you make already of… - you know I had a fright, I couldn't wait for the water to boil
- cold
soup. Oh the water was luke warm (laughs). Soup. From this packet soup, I made that one. And I
threw
it down her throat. I forced it down her throat.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
With a teaspoon, I kept the teaspoon down and I threw it down her throat. And uh that, then after
tha t, you know when that went down then I gave her salt water that she started vomiting. And uh…then
you had to see all the tablets.. that
she drank. That she drank that I didn't know about, you know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Then it was as if God said: "Now look what all is in there". You know? And… then I …that is
also
when I really started getting now dik of this man. And I just didn't know where to go, what to do.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: And uh that was the Friday night. The next Sunday… then he carried on again with
her.
He was hitting her and kicking her and hitting her and me also. The whole day, then we don't go out.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JE NNY: We stayed in that house.
INTERVIEWER:
So you were quite isolated also. Nobody.
JENNY:
Ja, Ja! He didn't want us to have friends, nothing. We had to just stay so in that house. We
couldn't go nowhere. This man just kept us there in the house. And that Sunday, we couldn't budge, we, we
stayed there in that house. And he carried on. And he's kicking and he's hitting and he's throwing the cups
broken. You know, he just carried on like a whitch. And uh… man, here my brother came. Oh my brother
used to… now it was his daughters first birthday
ag his son's first birthday party. We couldn't evens go to
that. That's
how that man was. You know if there was family functions we couldn't go. We had to stay
there
at home. We couldn't go.
INTERVIEWER:
He kept you from going.
44

JENNY: Ja, and uh so he brought me now, you know…custard, he brought me now things from the party.
And
uh, because I like make that child big. And I couldn't even go to his first birthday party. And all of
them's
hearts was sore, now why… I'm not there. But now he knew.
INTERVIEWER:
Your brother?
JENNY: He came there. Uh. Oh he knew how's
he, he used to sommer swear in front of them. Ja. And
uh…then he brought… that things out for me. Here, Nicole is again looking… Nicole what's wrong. Turps
(turpentine).
She drank turps. That was the fourth time.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
With turps.
INTERVIEWER: Only how many days after the tablets.
JENNY: Ja. Turps. And you must
know I didn't tell nobody.
INTERVIEWER:
About the attempt.
JENNY:
Ja. About the other things, I didn't tell nobody. I just…
INTERVIEWER: That's a lot you kept to yourself.
JENNY: Ja. I mean, I. Even if I tell him, he would have hit her. And he would have
hit me. He'd say it's
through
me.
I made her do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You know. He, he put all the blame on me. Everything was just me. Jenny, I did this I did that,
you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
It was never he…
INT ERVIEWER:
He never took responsibility.
JENNY: Ja. It was always me. And
uh he used to tell her that: "Your mother do this, your mother do that,
your mother's a bad woman", you know
all that things. And at first, she used to also tell my mother it's
thro ugh me. Until I thought: "No man, this child is big enough to know what's going on".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: Then I showed her, I said: "You see that black woman, your father's busy with that woman". "Ma,
I thought
it's his friend". I said no it's not his friend. "You see that child she's carrying there, that's your
sister".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. So there was a time you accepted that she blamed you
JE NNY: Ja. ( hesitatingly). No I mean I used to get cross but there was … who could I go to, who could I
speak to.
There was no one.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Right.
JENNY: Because
speak to his mother: " Jenny bid".
45

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: Everything was net bid, bid,
bid, you know. I also started hating the church.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: Because everything was bid, bid, bid. Jy bid, bid, bid, maar niks wil reg kom nie.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: You know that's how I felt
afterwards.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY: And I thought no man… you try and you try and you try and nothings going…
INTER VIEWER: It's not working.
ENNY:
What must I do? Ja. I tried everything. But nothing is going. And uh… So we maar just left
things li ke that and said nothing. But with the terps (turpentine). That was the last attempt. I said: "No,
now I must get you to doctor", because her stomach
was burning.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:
And uh then I though… "No I can't let my child suffer, through this pig.
I'm taking her to doctor".
Because
then, you know, then I started feeling, you know lekker dik of him.
INYTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
Of his nonsense.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Ja.
JE NNY: And that's also when we went through the psychologist. That she also… you know, woke me up
further. Then it was now as if she woke me up out of a dream. Why did I stick it out? You know.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JENNY: Even like now, some days when
I sit still and I just think, you know. And I blame myself. I do.
INTERVIEWER:
Still?
JENNY: Why did I do it? Why did I stick it out?
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
Why did I? You know…
INTERVIEWER: Did you find any
answers for those questions?
JENNY: Huh? Ja. A lot! Because I didn't have now… you know,
security. That is a woman's main thing.
INETRVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: And then, like… Even you. I mean will
you go back to your mother's house? (Silence). Now?
46

INTERVIEWER: Its difficult.
JENNY: It isn't. It isn't the same. Now you're
not working. You haven't got any experience in nothing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: This man kept you off lot of things. You can't lay on somebody else's neck. I thought: "Jenie,
here
I got
a child", you know. My sisters is gonna tell me: "Why don't you go and work?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: You know. They gonna tell me all that jazz. And I though : "Hey, what do a person
do? " There's nothing I can do. But
now I'll advise any person: "You go, you'll get work".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Leave the pig. That's the quickest way you'll get work.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you had
all these worries and all that but…
JENNY:
Jaa.
INTERVIEWER:
By the time the fourth attempt, you said you're going.
JENNY: Ja! I went over
to my mother and I said: "You not sending me again back to that man.
I had
enough!"
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:
Then I told her of all the times when Nicole tried to commit suicide and all that. So I said: "I
won't.
If Mommy wanna
go, mommy can go. I'm not going back" Yous can get the police also. I'm not
going back!" That's what
I said.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Because they always used to take me back home.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. But his time you were firm…
JENNY:
I was.
INTERVIEWER: Even with your parents.
JENNY: Yes, I was. I said if he come stand and swear here I don't care. You's
can maar feel shy, because
you know, you get of that people that is : "Oh, they coming to swear in front of our door" (in a whispering
voice),
you know.
INT ERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: Ja, now my sisters is like that. Especially the eldest
one. And I though no man, hu-uh. I don't
care. To
hell with everybody. I don't give a damn, but I'm
going! And I did! And I didn't go back to him up
till today.
He tried how many attempts. No ways! I'm not interested.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
47

JENNY: You know there was a time I had an affair, that was… I don't know also what the hell happened.
I think
I was actually looking for… comfort ( laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JENNY: I think I was actually looking for comfort.
And uh, we still friends. And I fell pregnant. That was
the first
time in my life that I'd done something, but…
INTERVIEWER:
How long were you now separated or divorced.
JENNY:
I was already a year and four months divorced.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY: And … But I still felt guilty. I mean if you're not used to, you know. If you're not used to doing
funny things. I felt guilty, but anyway.
He kicked it down, the pig.
INTERVIEWER:
Your ex-husband?
JENNY:
Ja. I was five-and-a-half months pregnant.
INT ERVIEWER: So even after being divorced, he still managed to hurt you.
JENNY: Ja. And I still didn't even make a case nothing. I just thought
I'll …"You I don't wanna do
any thing
to you. I wanna just leave you in God's hands. He'll know what to do"… (silence).
INTERVIEWER: That's tough hey? Getting rid of him after all that pain that you went through…
JENNY:
Ja. And believe it or not he still think I belong to him. Then he say it: "In God's eyes we're still
married".
I said no, that god is drunk (laughing). I'm not drunk. I'm very sober. "But I don't think I ever
wanna
come back to you".
INERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
No, I told him. I said uhm: "That Jenny was stupid. This Jenny, hu-uh. No ways, she was very
stupid.
This Jenny, you must look at her very nice (laughing)".
INTERVIEWER: So this is a different
Jenny?
JENNY:
Very and hard nê.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: You know life made me hard, very hard (silence). That's why, I don't know, I feel sorry for the
man that wants to get married to me. (Both Jenny and researcher
laughs). No, seriously.
INTERVIEWER: So you… You're saying
there's some changes you don't like so much?
JENNY: In myself?
INTERVIEWER: About the different Jenny?
JENNY:
Ja. There is. Sometimes I am a bit… too hard. Sometimes I think they just want to be friendly and
then
I…take it the wrong way.
48

INTERVIEWER: So you don't trust?
JENNY: Ja. I don't trust. I don't. Because I'm just scared… You know how they are. The one minute
they're
nice and then the next minute they change just like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: So, its difficult to trust anyone.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JENNY: So I'm a bit very wary (laughs).
INTERVIEWER: Mm. It's understandable.
JENNY: Ja.
INTER VIEWER: It really is. I mean you've trusted before and look what happened.
JENNY: Ja, and that
was trust. I thought, you know, I think it happened to all of us. Because my marriage
was
a disaster, my sister's marriage. The other one also. She was married, I think a couple of months and
then
she was away from her husband. She had a nervous break-down.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You know if you're not used to that life it's a shock. I think I was hard. I was strong.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: To stick it out so long.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JE NNY:
I think I was very strong… And uh my other sister weren't so strong. She got out of it, you know.
Shame, she's still making her children big. On
her own. The one is in six, the one is in five.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So while they were, like, separated, getting divorced and so on, you were still
going through …this terrible life even
though you saw your sisters were getting out.
JENNY:
Jaaa! And I, I helped her. I helped her. Because um, when he hit her the first time- they were
separated,
she was living by my mother and them, then he got her in town, then he hit her in town. Then
she
wa s blue,
you know. And I took her immediately to police station and to doctor.
INTERVIEWER:
And yet you didn't do that for yourself.
JENNY:
I didn't. You see now, I think a lot, if I had someone to help me. So with my things she even
stayed
out of work. And, and so funny, she remembered it. She said: "Jenny helped me. She helped me get
rid of my husband also. I'm gonna help her".
INETRVIEWER:
Okay, when you were ready to get out now?
JE NNY: Ja. Ja. Then she went with me. Then we went and put, you know,
uh… Get a interdict against
him.
INTERVIEWER:
She went through the whole process with you.
49

JENNY: Ja. She went with me to the lawyer. My other sister went with me, you know. They, they helped
me nogal. Because they saw now… No, especially when I told them. You see I didn't tell them nothing.
Because
I though: "Ag man, you tell, you tell, you tell- they do nothing about it".
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: In the meantime my mother
didn't tell them anything that's happening. So I told them and that's
wh en they stood with me, you know, they went with me. But this other one, she said: "No, Jenny helped me
with
mine, so I'm gonna help her". She even stayed out of work and she went with me.
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JENNY: So I think that… they're support actually helped me a lot. Their support really did help me a lot. If
you… You know there's some people
that haven't got support. I think that is also why they…stay in this
relationship. Now a lot of people, they don't know what is it to be abused. They can talk a lot but they don't
really
know what is that person going through.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: They can always point fingers: "This and that and that and that", but they don't know what's going
on.
INTERVIEWER: So you feel that
sometimes the woman gets blamed?
JENNY:
They do. They do get blamed for everything. No I think they do. Because if you look at it nicely,
a woman do everything,
she's actually the one that run everything in the house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JENNY:
She's the one that sees that there's food. He's not gonna worry. He's gonna come to you. He's
gonna
say: "Listen here Feroza, I want food". He's not gonna worry. He knows there's no money but he's
still
gonna come ask you. The child also.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:The
child is not going to the father. The child is gonna come to the mother: "I want food".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: So she's actually the main
person in the house. She's the person that they must… you know…
INTERVIEWER: The woman plays a very important role.
JENNY: She do! She do.
INTERVIEWER: And yet so many
women are abused.
JENNY:
Are being abused. Did you see how many women has been killed also?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: And that is all from abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
50

JENNY: And that's when I though, before I'm dead. Whose gonna look after my child? I'm not gonna
allow
this pig take, to rob my child of a mother!
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Hu-uh, I thought: "No!"
INT ERVIEWER: So you…you were pretty sure that… he could go as far as killing you.
JENNY:
Ja. No, he did. He tried it. There was one day he nearly stabbed me. Then the wardrobe door was,
I just
pushed me in the wardrobe. That thing, the knife stuck in the wardrobe. And what, what would have
happened?
Who would have just say no, I aggravated him. He done it out of anger. And what would have
happened?
My child without a mother. He would have … just a year his out again.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
In the meantime he took my life away.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: No, I just got out (silence) Like the elders will say to
you : " In olie getrap en gegly nê", I did
(laughing).
INTERVIEWER: Jy't gegly en opgestaan
(laughing).
JENNY:
Ja, ek het. And I stood up fighting (laughing). And I'm still fighting.
INTERVIEWER:
Tell me about the fighting that you're still doing.
JENNY: The, the, the trying to help other women.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JE NNY:
There was another lady-you met her already. Remember that day when you and Gerald came
down.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: And that lady, um she walk
so…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. I remember.
JENNY: I mean she's not all there but you can see the husband… I hear she was quite normal. I think
she's
being abused mentally.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JE NNY: Because how I saw it, when they come together, then he come shout her in front of people. And
that's the same thing Neil done to me. And I got cross. I couldn't take it. And then Jemina saw it. And then
Jem ina take me away, you know. She said : "Jenny die is clients". You know afterwards I said: "Herie,
clients
se gat!"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: I went in I said: "Listen here,
I don't think you, you, you need to be here. This woman, if she
speak
I understand what is she's speaking, although it is difficult".
51

INTERVIEWER: Right. So you couldn't take the abuse.
JE NNY: I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't take it. Because everything she say,
then he put her down.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY: I couldn't take it. Then I told
him. I said: "You know what? I come from this type of life. I am not
gonna allow it. If you come here with this wo… I'll hit you out here". And I was really prepared to do it. I
said:
"I don't want to see you here by this office again". "You come alone", I told the woman. And
um…then
she got me then she hugged me. She said it's the first time a woman speak like that to her
husband.
I said: "No I come from that type of life. I can't take it! I can't take it."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. You have no tolerance for that.
JENNY: I haven't got. I can't take it to see a man doing that to a woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: Especially if you can see it's a decent person. If it's a piece of rubbish I wouldn't worry.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
And its so funny, this women that is like that, they get all the decent men.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: I don't know how is this worked out. Its just like that. Because horrible women get all the decent
men
(silence). Really.
INT ERVIEWER: So you’ve had a lot of exposure to other women who've gone through abuse?
JENNY:
Ja! You see it. There's sometimes when… they tell me: " Is nie jou besigheid nie". Dan sê ek: "
Dit is my besigheid en ek gaan dit my besigheid maak. Daai dae van stilbly is verby" . And I don't see how
you can stand still and keep quiet
when you see a mad woman being abused.
INETRVIEWER:
So you feel all of us women have a responsibility…
JENNY:
Ja! Ja.
INTERVIEWER:
Towards other women.
JENNY: Ja. I mean if you hear… You hear everyday how this women is… I mean how can you feel
inside? You know, you get some women that laughs. But I mean if you're a decent woman,
how would you
feel to
help that woman that's being beat up everyday? It costs them nothing to pick up the phone, call the
pol ice. Nobody is gonna know you called the police. You don't need to leave your name and number, you
just leave their's.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
And say this person and this person is being abused every night this time, so and so a time. And
I'll make sure I'm standing there outside to show them: "No, that's the house". (Silence) No, I'll do it. I
wouldn't
stand still. A lot of times, they already said I'm gonna get hurt. I said: "I don't care, as long as I
know
it's for a good cause".
INTERVIEWER: It's something
you feel very strongly about.
52

JENNY: Ja. Ja. I mean I don't see why must women be abused by a man that know his own strength.
They
know they got more strength then the women. Why do you still wanna do it? Like this show, but you
must
really record it, because there's a perpetrator, but he's got a hood on, nê, they don't show his face. He
spoke
very nice and I admired him. He abused women and he said what drived them to do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Because they feel inferior.
And it is the truth. Then I didn't realize it.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: And this man was sitting and
speaking to me, you know next to me. He was sitting next to me.
An d he was sitting… And I though:
"Jenie, but this is mos the truth, that is how… You know, as he was
speaking I saw Neil.
INTERVIEWER:
Really.
JE NNY: All that points- was Neil.
IN TERVIEWER: It applied to him.
JENNY: Ja. They don't want you to be cleverer
than them, you know. Because he always used to put me
off.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
You know. You know. Whenever people used to speak I used to withdraw. But now I'm no more
like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
I uh… can now speak freely in company. At first I used to… worry because if he come he used
to put
me off. If I just say something… then he… There was times, like if uh…you know, they all sitting
there…their wives and they like, t he men is drinking. He would sommer get up and throw the glass of bear
in my face. Thinking nothing about it.
INTERVIEWER: In company.
JENNY:
Ja. And that is all things I wouldn't forget. That is all things of what he stripped me. He stripped
me of my dignity, you know. He stripped me of a lot of things. And that is something, I don't think I'll be
able
to forgive him for.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Can you forgive him for the physical abuse?
JENNY: No, I did forgive him. But the forgetting.
The forgetting. No, not the forgetting. I can't.
INTERVIEWER:
That's a different story.
JENNY: Ja. You can't. I mean that
was… No man… That… No man… That's a animal man. You can't….
I mean to hit another person's child like that, you know. And then, you still think, you expect, you still
wanna
sleep with her. You still hit her to sleep also with you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You know.
53

INTERVIEWER: Cruel.
JENNY: Ja! No, man. You know that
was terrible. Jee! Whiskas, I used to hate… You know I even
hate…started
hating sex also.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
And I did hate it.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: And now I'm still getting
cold towards it. Really.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Because you associate it with….
JENNY:
Ja. No I am still really cold towards it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: I am still like a fridge (laughs). I don't know whether
I'll defrost (laughs). I suppose when I
defrost then all the men, women must keep their husbands away from me (laughs).
INTER VIEWER: Then you gonna get loose (laughs).
JENNY:
Then I'm bad (laughs). But hey, at the moment, wow, I'm like a fridge. And I am.
INTER VIEWER: Ja. Jenny you experienced a lot of pain but you're still able to laugh. Tell me about
being
able to laugh.
JENNY:
It's, like… when you made peace with yourself. I did. I did. I mean it happened. There's nothing I
can do
about it now. I allowed it to happen to me. I did.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: I did allow it. I mean if I was lets say more educated in that direction…
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: I would have been able to do
something about it, but I just sat there, you know. I was like a, a
dead person. I just allowed everything
to happen around me. You know I done nothing about it.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: I just sat and looked. You
know I was like a zombie.
INTERVIEWER:
You didn't believe that you could do something.
JENNY:
Ja. I was like a zombie and… At least what thing it didn't come so was to like, bring her in the
hou se and come sleep with her in front of me.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: You know, that was the only thing that he, at least, didn't do. But I think
if he had to do that I
would
have also just sit and look at him. And do nothing about it.
54

INTERVIEWER: Mm. You were like a zombie you said.
JENNY: Ja. I just sat and I allowed things to go on and on and on. If I had
to, from the word go, put my
thumb
down and say: "This is it"!
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: Things would have been different.
But I allowed it. I did allow it. I did allow all this things to
happen. That's why in fact I didn't blame my daughter for blaming me. Because I was the one…
INTERVIEWER:
You did feel a sense of you could have done things differently.
JENNY: Ja. I did. If had to… you know, think straight that time. I could have got out, got out of that,
you know, this, that type of relationship, I would have got out of it sooner.
INTERVIEWER:
But it was a difficult situation in which to think straight, hey?
JENNY: Ja, it was, hey. He didn't even give you a chance to think. Because every day was abuse.
There
weren't
one day. Not one day. And that is the honest truth.
INTERVIEWER:
So you say there wasn't a day's peace in the house.
JE NNY: Hu-uh. Every day. No man, hu-uh. I mean every day, every day. No but that's the honest truth.
Not one
day was there a day a day where I could say: "Ho, it was so nice", you
know. We enjoyed
ourselves;
we actually sat and we were talking.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Not one day! You sit and talk and man, hardly five minutes, just like that, then he start. Or
everything was nice, then he go and sleep. Hey, when that man
get up there.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Ho! that man coogies. You know. Then up on guard. Hey, then that man start. After that
we were on guard. Every day. Each and every hour, when that man is around. When he's not at home it felt
like heaven. Hey no, really. It’s a sin to think like that but that's how it felt.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
If that man sleep out for a weekend, ho then it was Christmas. No it was Christmas. You know
New
Year. New Year's Eve….Everybody's having a nice time, you know. Others is going out camping, you
know.
He had a car. He never ever took us out camping. Never.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JE NNY: He had a car. But every year: "Jenny, I'm taking friends, they're paying me". In the
meantime
then we know what friends is it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: But now me and Nicole didn't worry. It's peace for us.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY:
When he takes his friends camping. We know what friends is it. His girlfriend and her family.
55

INTERVIEWER: Right.
JENNY: And he used to tell me to pack
him food and I pack it. And you know…
Just
to get rid of him.
INTERVIEWER: So him being
away from you was a relieve.
JENNY: Peace. Peace, ja. Ho, then me and Nicole stay so nice. When that man
go and work, ho then we
feel so
lekker. But when its time for him to come from work than it is as if… you know, your spirits
dampen
immediately. Then you just think: "Huh! This man is coming now from work". Or Nicole come in
then
she say: "Mommy, Mommy, did Mommy see what time is it again?"
INTERVIEWER:
So you had uh… sort of a pattern that you had to follow already?
JENNY: Ja!
INTERVIEWER:
If he comes, you must be at attention.
JENNY: Prim and proper.
Ho just…Ja, at his attention. Although I'm at his attention, then the things still
come
flying over my head.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
You know.
INTERVIEWER: So there's nothing
you could have done to avoid it.
JENNY:
Hu-uh. No, no, no .
INTERVIEWER: Even though you tried.
JENNY:
At night, you wouldn't believe it. At night time you had to put his clothes right. His
socks, his boots, his trouser, his…everything
had to be right. I get up five o'clock, he leaves half-past-five.
I make him sandwiches, his flask, you know,
for him to go to work. And uh then I …Its winter. Now we
had this asbes heater, then I must put his tracksuit…trouser
that he puts under his jeans, then I must put that
over
the hitter to get hot.
INTERVIEWER:
So you took care of him like a child.
JENNY:
I had to. When he get up then his wash water is right, his… even water for him to clean his teeth
with…
was right. His water is right for him just to wash.
INTERVIEWER: It was almost like
you were the mother and he was the child.
JENNY: Ja. When that man go out in the morning you feel the… you can
even feel the peace in the house.
Really
you feel the… you feel the tension going out of the house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Sometimes that time of the morning then that man start with his things. Then
he start looking
56

again, he look for faults.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JENNY: In the meantime that was the time
he would go camping out. With his girlfriend and the children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: And the lunches that I must
pack so for him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Then I must put extra lunch
in but something different from it.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY: Five o'clock in the morning. And our house was like a fridge. Then I must stand and
make that
man egg-bread. And you must know that…Oh, sorry (Blows her nose). Ja. Where was I again?
INTERVIEWER:
You were saying how you had to do all these things.
JENNY:
Ja. And then put all his things right. His fruit, his pudding.
INTERVIEWER:
So you tried to do what…
JENNY:
I tried to please him.
INTERVIEWER:
Whatever it took to please him.
JENNY: Ja, I tried to please him. I did I tried everything, you know. I mean just for peace, not for his
love.
Because I hated him then already. I did hate
him. You know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
I really did hate him. But… just for peace. Just for peace sake. Even for him to leave Nicole. I
used to do anything for him. You know just
to, not to go on with Nicole. I was like actually protecting her.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: You know from his abuse.
I mean jenie, I didn't go through it, now my child must go through that
hell.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY: Because I mean really that
was hell. That's why I told Xavier (daughter's boyfriend) I said:
"Please, my child come from that type
of life, you don't do nothing to hurt her, because really, really I'll
kill
you".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: No, I'll, really will hurt him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
I think he's aware of it. Nicole is also aware of it. She knows it. And she always say: "Mommy,
57

you know Xavier, his soft". And I say: "Ja but they can change!" (laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. So you're very, very wary.
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER: So you're not taking any chances.
JENNY:
Ja, so I think I must also now a bit let go.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So you feel it's sometimes extreme.
JENNY:
Ja. Just now I do something to harm their…
INTERVIEWER: …relationship.
JENNY: Ja. I don't think I want that because they long together, they
understand each other and that.
INTERVIEWER: So Jenny, you do believe things
can be different for other peolple.
JENNY:
It can.
INTERVIEWER:
Sometimes a marriage can work.
JENNY: It can. It can. It can.
That's when they put down the ground rules, form the word go. Don't let a
man… control you and you don't control a man. Because you get a lot of women that abuse men.
INTERBVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Like my sister-in-law in Cape Town. She abuse my brother, ag, and he's such a sweet person.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Oh, he's a sweet person. I know
…When I was away from my husband, they had to send me away
from
him because every time the phone ring, I used to…you know… I… how can I say …used to like uh…
I used
to get sick. I used to become the most miserable person you can get, the minute that phone ring and I
think its him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JENNY:
Then I start shivering, you know. And they were like actually scared I'm gonna get a nervous
break-down
or a heart attack.
INTERVIEWER: While
you were separated.
JENNY: Ja. Ja. And uh. Because I think
I wasn't so much worried of myself. I was worried of, I was more
sca red
for Nicole' sake, you know. That they had to send me to Cape Town. And when I came in Cape
Town,
my…sister-in-law was busy abusing my brother.
INT ERVIEWER: So you, you realize it works both ways?
JENNY:
Ja. So I gave her a good hiding.
INTERVIEWER:
You will not tolerate any kind of abuse, form a man or a woman.
JENNY:
Ja, I couldn’t take it. I told her. I said: "No man, you know what…" No I actually I explained it
58

very nice to her. I said: "You know what, you know my husband is a piece of rubbish". I said: " What do
this man do?" I said: "Have he got other girlfriends?-No. What do he do? Do he spend more time with his
friends?-
No". Then I asked her: "Now, what do you want? I mean this is a good man. If he comes from
work
he starts the pots. He's like a woman. If he put down his bag, like a woman if she comes home she put
down
her bag and she start cooking. This is what this man do. He start washing your children. What do you
want"?
(Silence). You know I think that actually made me see black.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Then I gave her a good hiding.
INTERVIEWER: So, Jenny a lot of members of your
family have actually been through abuse. Your
brother,
your sisters and yourself.
JENNY:
Mm.
IN TERVIEWER: And yet you don't come from that kind of family.
JE NNY: No. And you know, now the other day at the show… They this Lisa Venter said uh… Vetten, you
know
her.
INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes, ja.
JENNY:
She was with us on the show. And she said uh…Its usually …Uh I don't know who said so, one
of them (speaking herself
in a whispering voice). Said its usually if you come out of such uh…house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
You tend to attract… You know, people that abuse you. And I couldn't get a hold of the mike…I
would
have really told her its not the truth.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
(Silence). Because there was to man…much people ready to answer her there.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. So, she was saying if you come
out of an abusive home you will get into an
abusive relationship?
JENNY:
You attract …
INTERVIEWER:
But you are saying…
JENNY:
Its not the truth.
INTERVIEWER: You came out of a house where there wasn't any abuse.
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER: And yet three members of your family….
JENNY:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER:
…were in abusive relationships.
JENNY: Ja. Because
we were stupid. We couldn't see the signs of abuse.
59

INTERVIEWER: So you think maybe you grew up very protected?
JENNY: My… We were. My mother and them did. They didn't allow us to have friends
outside.
INTERVIEWER:
So you didn't know about abuse.
JE NNY: We didn't know what's going on outside. If they allowed us to be more…Have friends more on
the outside.
To see what goes on in other homes.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY: I mean we would have seen
the difference.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JENNY: No, this is now this, that is now that, you know. We would have …You know have a different
per spective of life. Especially of abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: But I mean… Living in a house where you
just… don't know what's going on around you. We
were just…in that house. They didn't want us to have friends outside.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Ja, and that was trust. I thought, you know, I think it happened to all of us. Because my marriage
was a disaster, my sister's marriage. The other one also. She was married, I think a couple
of months and
then she was away from her husband.
She had a nervous break-down.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
You know they made a big mistake. And that's what I didn't do when Nicole was growing up. I
didn't
do that. If he's not at home I used to let her go out and play. I didn't keep her in the house.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You exposed
her to people.
JENNY: Ja, because my father told me to. He said: "You don't let you're child grow up for yourself; you
let her grow up for the world". And I did. When she was small I used to keep her in the house. And then he
told me that. I think he must have seen it. You know, where do they're mistake lay.
INTERVIEWER:
Right, right.
JENNY: Uh.
INETRVIEWER:
Okay. (Silence). Jenny, is there anything you would like to add about the experience of
leaving
an abusive relationship as a "Coloured" woman. Anything important that you feel…
JENNY:
You mean that why they must leave him?
INTERVIEWER: Anything. Any, any final
thought on what you think is important about…
JENNY:
No, I…
INTERVIEWER:
…the experience of leaving abusive relationships.
INTERVIEWER:
Why they must leave?
60

JENNY: Just leaving, just how you experienced it.
JENNY: No, I think that is the biggest escape she can make in life.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: Because from there she can…. There is another life out there for themselves. That isn't the only
life they
have, The abusive relationship. It's not. Because you can get yourself a different life outside, on
the outside. You can become something that you wanted to be.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: Because a lot of times in a marriage, you can't become the person you want to be because the
husband… especially in a abusive…they
keep you.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:They don't want you to be exposed to other people. They
want you to, you know, just like hold
you back. In the meantime you don't
know the potential you have to do something.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JE NNY: An uh, another thing is, the community need a lot of people like that. You know, like if you leave
the relationship,
you can always teach other women.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: That you can make a life for yourself out there. You don't
have to stick to it. It's not
unnecessary for women to stick to that relationships. I don't see why must they.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JENNY:
I'm not gonna be like other women that don't know what is…what it is to be abused and
just say: "No if I'm them I'll leave him". No I wouldn't!
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JENNY: But I'll, I'll try and encourage them…to leave him. They must also break the silence.
They
mustn't just keep quiet. They must break it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: They must go to the police.
They must have him… arrested. Not just sit back and relax
eve ry time. They think it's gonna be better the next time. The next time it's through. Like, remember there
was
a poem I showed you of that as time went on the only flowers she got was on her grave.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY: They kill you. Abuse lead
to, to murder.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JENNY:
Because he see you doing nothing. You're just sitting there. Obviously he, he's becoming irritated
because
he want you to do something. I think a lot their, their, the way they carry on, they want you to fight
back.
61

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY: But now they see you're doing nothing, that’s why they continue. Because they want you to
retaliate
but you don't, you just sitting there looking at him. So they must do something. They mustn't just
sit and
look at them.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JENNY: They must have him locked
up because the police don't play with them anymore.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. (Silence).
JENNY: That's it.
INTERVEIWER: Right. Jenny what is your experience of abuse within " Coloured" communities
specifically, what's your views
on it?
JENNY:
There is a lot. There is a lot of abuse. But like I told you, the most of them stick to the
relationship
just because of security. Because none of them isn't
working. Because as you know, unemployment is very
high here
in Eldorado Park.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:And
uh…perhaps the husband
is working, so then… Now again when the wife is working, the
husband isn't working, then you get that
abuse also, nê. Then the wife is working then the husband… Now
she, again if you come think, she'll
get no one to look after her children. He's doing a good job. He's
cle aning the house, he's…some of them wash the washing, and they see to the children. Where are you
goi ng to get somebody. Because that money that you get, that little money that you get, just go so in to the
house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
Where will you get extra money to pay for someone to do all that things for you.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JENNY:
When they can do it.
INTERVIEWER:
So they still stay with the husband even though he's not working but he does other
things around the house.
JENNY: Even if he abuse you also.
They think no he looks nice after the children. Where are they gonna
get somebody
to do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY:
So, I think a lot they must start thinking… different. They mustn't think of him just being there.
You can get a servant there. You can even…there's a lot of "Coloured" people that haven't got homes.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: That will do anything just for a roof over their head. They can get of that people also. They must
find
out.
62

INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you feel that they have other options.
JE NNY: There is a lot of options. Because a lot of times then people come there to the center. Then they
come
ask for…a place. You know. A roof over their head.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JE NNY: They've got no where to go. "Isn't there shelters and that?" There isn't a lot of shelters. Shelters is
mostly just for abused women, not
just for someone else.
INTERERVIEWER:
Mm.
JENNY: And again abused women, they don't also always send them to the shelters because they're getting
cross because most of them… Make the
case, send them away, the next best thing is that they run back to
their husbands.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. That's a problem.
JE NNY:
Mm. Because they think if they must get out of there, where are they going to again. They must
go and
look
for another place.
INTERVIEWER: So they end up…
JENNY:
Going back home. No they must
start waking up. Like I woke up, although it was seventeen years
later. You can still wake up now. You don't
need to sit and sleep there and be like a zombie. By the time
you end being a zombie, you'll sit without children
or …dead (Silence).
INTERVIEWER: Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time, and your energy…
JENNY:
It was a pleasure. It was nice to talk it out.
INTERVIEWER:
Thanks Jenny.
3. TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH JUBEIDA
INT ERVIEWER:
Jubeida, I don't know what Faisal (Jubeida's nephew who introduced me to her) told
you about
the study, but it's basically about "Coloured" woman leaving abusive relationships.
JUBBE
IDA: Coming to the end of it?
INTERVIEWER: Ja, how you experienced leaving the relationship.
JUBEIDA:
Okay. How it started is, we weren't married for long. We got married, we had our own place,
and we had a house, a three-bedroom house, everything in Klipspruit. But that same year his friends were
getting
married also. And then where they were living it wasn't nice because it was in a room. He nagged
me, come
let these people stay with us, they're our age, you know. They just got married, struggling. I
said:
"Fiasal, I don't like to live with people.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
I'm very much a person of my own. And he went on and he's a person, if you take long, he
want's
to decide on his own.
63

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: He's like: "Do as I say".
So, they moved in with us. Then afterwards the problem comes in,
now the kitchen stays dirty, the bathroom stays dirty. He feels irritated because he when we alone in the
house
the kitchen is clean, the bathroom is clean.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You can do what you
want to in the house and here's another couple, you know. And that type
of w ife
was like where ever the husband turn, she used to turn. Now I'm not that kind of person.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You wanna go? Go! Hell, my house is mine. You know that's the kind of person I am.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
But don't sit on my bed - I was very fussy that time- don't sit on my bed, my bedspread must be
stra ight. You wanna sit, sit on the floor (laughing). If my front room is clean, don't dirty my ashtray.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA:
And what he used to do, he used to come with his friends, just after I cleaned the house and I
draw
my curtains. The house is nice and clean.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Then he comes with his friends. And they'll sit and make a noise and they'll start smoking
bec ause all of them smoke, I don't smoke. And the ashtrays would be dirty. And they go in the spareroom,
they play games and everything till late. And I said: " Faisal but you're not, it's not fair, you're not
thinking
of me, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
That's when the argument started. And I always promised myself I'll never take a husband like
my father.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm?
JUBEIDA: My father was a drinker.
He used to beat my mom. My mom left him… when I was
three.
IN TERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: So I said always, that's
what I don't want in a man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Okay, here I meet this guy, he wasn't drinking but he was smoking. Very nice person… Okay.
We had
our first… not a argument but …like a lovers' quarrel just after our engagement. And I said: "You
know what? I can break it off". And he said: "O, ja just because why of my friends now you wanna break
it o f. Because
I said, I made a joke, I'm a very joke person. And I said "O, jee I didn't know you had
handsome friends. Because he came with this guy and I mean this guy, I know he's
got a girlfriend because
I'm working
with his girlfriend.
64

INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA: And he took it to be serious.
"Oh, I'm looking at other men already".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know, you thinking
of a divorce. I said I'm not thinking about a divorce or anything. Can't
you take
a joke? Neefie got he's girlfriend.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: They're gonna get married,
we are gonna married. We also engaged, so what? It's just a joke.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: He got upset and he's sister said to me: "O, you don't know Faisal". I said: "Faisal don't know
me".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Okay.
JU BEIDA: If he thinks he's gonna come make a scene by my job, I'll show him very quickly. There's cops.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Okay. He came and we sorted it out. He spoke nicely: "No don't divorce or, no don't break up
The
engagement and everything whatever. A week engagement, what will people think about it. I said: "To
moer
with people".
INTERVIEWER: Uh.
JUBEIDA:
You know I can't be bothered with them. Okay, I thought it over. I said: "Just give me time, let
me think over it, because I I can't take this. I don't take shit. I like to make jokes and if you can't take it
tha t's it. Because
I did body building… and I was with a lot of guys.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And it was married men. And all of a sudden, I must give up my friends, I must give up my
partners
I have gym with.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. That's what he expected from you.
JUBEIDA: Ja! That's what he expected.
If I see the guys in the street then he gets upset. I can't greet them.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then its like, How? This
guys are…four years gyming with them. Their wives know me and
is married
men.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I was the shortest in the club. You know? And everyday I was the only woman in the club and
they…funny enough they weren't like the touchy part, you know where men goes out and want to touch
you and
every thing.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, ja.
65

JUBEIDA: They used to be my partners. They…we used to enjoy ourselves. Here this guy comes and tell
me you can't do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Okay, fine You know madly in-love and can't bloody used to it (laughs). I told the guys: "Hey,
wh en you see me with this man…"They said: "No Juby, we've seen him already, we could read it". So,
whenever
we see yous at the bus stop, we wouldn't greet you like 'hi' (in an exited voice) and hug you and
everything,
we'll just make a low sign (laughs). So we started developing signs for ourselves.
INTERVIEWER:
So even they noticed
JUBEIDA: Because they're married men. Because they
had kids already, you know. And I'm the youngest.
And the thing is… what happened is, when I met Faisal
nobody came to say and tell me: "Hey, this guy
don' t suit you".
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA: Nobody. Okay
my mom was the one that said: "Hey, this guy is not for you". But I said: "Ma,
you didn't like my Christian boyfriends,
this is a Muslim guy, maybe it will turn out for the best, may be its
just he's attitude or maybe, its just
the way he looks".
INTREVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
He will become… Okay. So I persuaded with my mom,
because I'm very…headstrong I said "
Ma,
I'll get married to him because it's a Muslim guy".
INTREVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
"Even if I must run away, I'll get married to him, because you want I must get married to a
Muslim!"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I said: "So, I met this
guy, so why not?" Anyway, in the meantime my mom know…he's
mother.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA: So I … You know when you're young, you don't ask family histories.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. You don't think it's important.
JUBEIDA: You don't think of that. That is not important because you're typical: "I know it all".
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: Anyway. So, we got married. That day my mom was very upset. Its like our marriage…the
we dding itself …was beautiful, but I've got not photos to show you.
INTERVIEWER: Ha, shame.
JUBEIDA: No, he burnt it out, He burnt the whole photos…If I had, If I had a album, my kids would have
known what I was before I went
into the way I am.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
66

JUBEIDA: Dress. I was a tomboy. And so my cousins couldn't believe, "How could you stick out your
life"?
They said: "You're a tomboy". I do everything. I do what boys do. I paint, I knock in nails, I do
everything
that they do.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because I will watch and
I'll do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because that's the type
of person I am. So okay, I still whore my jeans and top. Then I said :
"Okay I'm getting married Faisal,
I must start to? Wearing scarves and cloaks". "No ,no, no, You're just
perfect."
Fine! You're my husband, you want me that way that type of person".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
Then its uh… these guys moved in with us in the house. Then its afterwards I wanna jol with
this guy. How? Me and this guy is
never alone in the house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: He's in the house, he's wife is there. You're in the house or you go to your mother, I go into my
room. He's a very, very jealous and possessive person.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
He's very jealous. And okay fine, I didn't think, we used to travel the same busses. Afterwards
me and the girl was working together so we traveled to work. He always
used to leave after me… to work,
he used to come home before me from work. This guy used to leave earlier and he used to come later.
INTERVIEWER: So he had like
no reason to suspect anything.
JUBEIDA:
Ja,… but because why also Neefie and them comes from P.E. also. I grew up in Port Elizabeth.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JU BEIDA: You know. We knew each other from that side but when we came to Jo'burg we had no
contact…whatsoever with each other. I went to my families way, they lived in Jo'burg.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I met Neefie through him
again…once more through him I met Haneef. He brought them here
by my
house. So they that's how we started talking again and he didn't like it.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Well fine I can't be bothered.
So uh what happened it was in Ramdhaan, (Holy month in the
Islamic religion)… and I didn't know
I was gamiel ( Arabic word for being pregnant) also. We got married
in February, I think Ramdhan was that year in June, July, it was in winter, I remember it was in winter
time.
And every night before trawee (special evening prayers that are performed in the holy month of
Ramdhan)
they leave
the house. Okay fine, go to Mosque but you don't take a kofia (scull cap worn to Mosque by
Muslim men) with. Now Neefie
was in uh biking. Then they come just before fajar (prayer that is
performed before sunrise). Or sehri
time, (period before fajar during which meal is taken, after which the
person
fasts until after sunset) you know.
67

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Okay, you ask questions. I'll
ask you once where have you been. You tell me "Listen, I've been
with
the bikers, I believe. Where the hell you've been I can't be bothered. That's they type of person I am. I
believe
whatever you tell me. You could have tell me shit also, I believe you. Because I… that's the type of
person.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: And me I'll have a argument
now and I want to be quite and don't care. Now he's a person that
likes to carry on. So what happened
that night, we went to the shop and uh the one girl, that was with me at
school,
they had the shop. And the whole time when we're sitting, they were talking about this girl. And I
don't
know what I said or I just said to him… He asked me something because I got up I said I'm gonna
shower
quick. And… he asked me something because I remember we had coke that night. That Friday
night.
He asked me to do something in the kitchen. I said " Why don't you go ask her". And I walked off, I
turned
my back and I went into the bathroom. And Haneef started laughing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And he got so cross and he came after me. And that's when he stared hitting
me in
the bathroom.
So now I'm a little bit shorter then him but I went down…
INTERVIEWER: Was that the first time?
JUBEIDA:
That's the first time he started hitting me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And because I went down, you know it was like from the back, I didn't see him face on. Now I
ask: "Now why are you hitting me?" And he hit me again in my face.
And that's the thing that I hate
because
I promised myself no man is ever gonna hit me.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
My mom used to tell me how my father used to beat her. So all I was afraid of was my nose,
my eyes. But anyway, he beat me, I went down and… the only thing I could grab was his balls ( laughs).
And
I kept on for dear life.
INTERVIEWER: I'm sure. ( laughing)
JUBEIDA:
He was blue, I promise you ( laughing). I squeezed it. And that makes them worse mad. And I
think
that was making him worse mad that's why he kept on hitting me (voice serious again).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
INTERVIEWER: And I didn't leave. And finally when
I left he went out of the bathroom. And I went out
of t he
bathroom… and then he grabbed me from the back. He started hitting me again. And I could feel my
lips
cracking (tearful voice), my eyes are popping out and I'm crying.
INTERVIEWER:
Shh. Ja.
JUBEIDA; And I can't do anything.
As far as I know, they didn't do anything.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Because why they know his temper. Fine,… and as I went out of the house, he said : "Just go
68

out of the yard I'm gonna kill you". My mom is in Eldo's… I'm in Klipspruit.
INTERVIEWER:
Shh.
JUBEIDA: Down the road is his uncle,
up the road is his mother. And I'm the type of person, I don't like
scenery.
Because I know if I'm running up to his mother he's gonna hit me in the street.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: The people of the houses
is gonna come and look, I don't like scenery
INTREVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because my friends live here up here in the road, its gonna be a big thing. Run to his uncle, its
gon na be another thing. Because that way also there's people.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I maar stood in the yard and I was crying. And he went on and he went on. He's a person that
can harp on old… shit.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
To put it that way- he harps about shit.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I was crying. It went on, it was about twelve, I went into the house again. I thought: "Okay, I'll
take out my clothes I'll take a shower". He got me down on the bed.
You know that thin pointed brushes?
INTERVIEWER:
Uhm.
JUBEIDA:
He started stabbing me on my chest. That's why I say: Thanks for bodybuilding otherwise I
would
have been dead. He would have cracked it whole, this part here (pointing to her sternum)…
INTERVIEWER: The sternum, ja.
JUBEIDA: He would have cracked it because why he broke the thing on me…
INTERVIEWER:
Hell!
JUBEIDA: He broke that brush, the back brush.
And I had that brushes to do my hair because that time
I cut my hair very short. Okay, and I was sitting, okay
I was crying. Finally managed to get out I went into
the bathroom
and took a shower. He went to go and sleep, you know. Still the hatred is not there yet.
You're
just asking yourself over and over: " What did I do wrong".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Why is he doing this to me, you know. What did I say wrong. I'm trying to replace
everything
and it didn't want to come back to me. Anyway I showered, it was fasting (voice cracking -close
to tears).
I went into the front room blow dry my hair everything. I said: "Ag, tomorrow's another day".
The next morning when I looked into the mirror, I saw my whole face-blue. I was highly upset. Now I can't
come
to my mother, just now she would told me: "I told you so".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
69

JUBEIDA: How do I go to his family? What do I tell them. Where does it…where do you start?
You
know I can't recall where it started.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Anyway, I left it. I cooked for the afternoon. Well tha t lady, the girl that was with us,
Fozi, she tried to console me: " Juby, you know what? I would go and whatever
…" I said: "Fozi it's easy
to say
'you go'".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: It’s a thing that I promised
myself:" The day I get married, it will be for keeps".
INTEVIEWER: Ja, ja.
JUBEIDA: It's not for just the first argument or the first fight we gonna have, I'm gonna run.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
It is for keeps. Because why I know my family has got a history of divorce. It's my family
history. You know, I'm young, still,
I'm twenty-five years, thinking : "Okay, life, it will come right".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
The Monday…I was blue. I said: "Fozi, I'm not going to work". But I took the earlier bus
because
that time busses didn't come through Eldo's or Klip Town. Took the bus to Klip Town, there on
top. And I took a walk to my mom's
best friend, Auntie Hawa. She looked at me, she said: " Juby, what the
hell happened". I explained to her what
happened. I said: "Please don't tell my mother". In the meantime,
she couldn't
take it (tearful voice). She phoned my mother. I went down to doctor. The doctor said: "Make
a case
against him". I said: "Doc, how do you go about it?" It's the person you love, you got married to him.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
Maybe, he just lost his head, its fasting time. How do you do it? He say : "Juby, your ears are
blue.
How can you do this to yourself. I said: "Ag, it will come right Doc". You know? And uh… I went
home.
Then my mom… My mom's friend phoned her, my mom phoned his mother. As I got home from the
doctor, because now he don't know I'm not gone to work, he thought I'm gone to work.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And uh he's mother got to me. She asked me: "Juby, how the hell did it happen?" I said:"No,
your
son beat me up like this. And I explained to her what happened". She say: "You know what? I think,
pack
your things, then you go hide for a few days". I said it's easier said then done. You have people living
here
in your house. I say: "They are boarding now. I'm suppose to see that there's food for them". "Ja, but
Foszi' s there the food is in the fridge, she can come and cook and whatever". I said it's easier said the done.
The n she… Then only I got to know that he's father is that type of a person.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So his mother took this very seriously.
JUBEIDA:
Ja. No, that’s the only time his mother took it seriously. It was like the first time. And I think
then
her life was playing in front of her. How my father-in-law used to beat her up.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Then she told me the family history.
70

INTREVIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA: And I was sitting there.
I said: "Ag ma, it will come right", you know. Maybe I'll give him
another
chance. You know. It's the first time, we're young, it will come right. I stayed. That night my mom
came
with the cops to fetch me. I said: "Ma I'm not going . Its my marriage, I have to work it out. I have to
see where I've gone wrong".
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Maybe it's me.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So you questioned
yourself.
JUBEIDA: I questioned myself.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA: Because why it's the first time I'm living with somebody else.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: You know. And I'm very head strong, you know. I, I'm very short tempered. I say I said: "Ma,
no". My mom is…very hard. She said: "No you're going now". I say: " He's not here, he's gone to
Mosque". Then my mother started swearing:
"He knew I'm coming that's why he bloody run away. I'm
coming tomorrow and I'm picking
you up with the imam and everything". Because I…it’s the first time my
mom
see me with blue eyes. I've never had blue eyes ever. Even with being tomboy. I've never had blue
eyes.
You know. I've never been in fights with any of my friends. You know tomboys get in fights and you
argue.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
I've never been in any of those. Here she comes and she finds me. After six months I'm sitting
with
blue eyes.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm
JUBEIDA: I didn't tell her it was as blue as far as my ear drums. The next day I went to work I asked them
how much is it for a brain scan. So the guy told me: "Listen, medical aid wouldn't be able to…cover it. Its
gonna
be a lot". So he asked
me why. So I said to him "Now you know my situation, Doctor's just worried
abo ut
my brain". I said :"But I feel fine. I'm not off-headed, you know I'm not dizzy or anything. Okay, I'm
fine I'll see how it goes". It went over. He became the loving person again. You say: "O well, life will
come
alright.
Redwan. I fell pregnant with Redwan. Then… the second time, he started, he hitted me. I used to questions
myself:
"Am I not too fast, you answered him wrong", you know? Because I…when I'm cross I can answer
him very ugly.
INTREVIEWER:
Uhm.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "Okay maybe…It will come right". When my son was born…we moved down to his
mother. We moved…No.
When we moved out of that house, we moved to Bosmont, just before I gave
birth
to Redwan. Everything was okay, we were in Bosmant in a home and uh….No, the second time I
walked
out of the house I said: "Okay, if you still want this people in the house, you can have them".
Because
by then I left home.
INTERVIEWER:
Uhm.
71

JUBEIDA: So, it was still early and I walked to my mother. He didn't know I left. He thought I'm taking
washing
off the line. Meantime, all the washing was off…and I walked out… as if I'm taking washing off.
And
uh I didn't go up to his mom. I came up to my mom. I also said to my mom: "Listen I'm only going
home,
if imam takes me home. Because I've had enough with him".
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JU BEIDA: "I can't take this or if he takes those people out of the house because why he wants to perform
in front
of
them".
INYTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: So, I didn't go. He finally found out from my sister, that I'm here, by my mom. Then he came.
So I said: " I'm not coming home. You bring the imam and I'll go home. And if you put those people out".
Okay finally,
they moved the Monday, I went the Tuesday home with imam and everything. We talked it
over.
Okay seems like things will come right. We moved out of there, then we moved to Bosmont into a
one room… with kitchen and everything.
INTREVIEWER:
Uhm.
JU BEIDA: It was fine. I was pregnant with Redwan.
And…Then also things was fine. It was really fine.
Until Redwan
was born. Redwan was…three months, then he told me: "This child is not mine". Then I
said to him: "Do you think my what's
its name is sitting in front of my forehead".
INTERVIEWER:
Um.
JUBEIDA:
"Hum? When you found me, you knew I wasn't pregnant. And if you count right, Redwan is
born a year after we got married. A year and three days. No not three days, we got married on the 5th,
he
wa s born on the 14th. So its…nine days. I say: "He was born a year and nine days after that, so who the hell
am I supposed to be with?"
INTREVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"Hum? I don't go to gym, I don't see my friends, I'm only with you". That's when we had our
first argument in his mom's house. She did… nothing. After our first incident she did nothing there (Close
to tears).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
His uncle was the one… that stood in for me. He said: "No, Juby its okay". He…promised me
he'll
kill my son. And that's when I made up my mind. You know, "before you touch my kids, I will show
you.
But touch him. You're gonna die in your sleep boy". And that's where my hatred started building up
slowly.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. That is now
about two years in to the marriage?
JUBEIDA:
That is a year, going in to your second year of marriage.
INTERVIEWER:
Sh. Mm.
JUBEIDA: But
you still have that forgiveness in it, you know. Ag, we argue now, just now its okay, its
Gonna come right
(in a singing tone). Oh, he asked for mauf (forgiveness). Allah give mauf, who are you as
human?
( In a more serious tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Okay.
72

JUBEIDA: But, every time he asks mauf (forgiveness), I still…I have a little bit of hatred going with it.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: And its that…I'll forgive
you, but I'll never forget you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: That's the type of person I was.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I'm still, I think… I still down deep, its still there: " Don't hurt me"
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And especially when it came to my son. Okay, we were three months there. After three
month s then he told me: "Hey,
listen, you too long at home now. I can't support you and the child still.
Yo u better see that you get a job".
How? Its like … It's like : "Hey, he's now said to you, you supposed to
have…."But
then fine, I'll go and work. Went out, I found a job.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I went back to my old job. Because why, they were also nagging me to come back. And I said:
"Okay, fine I'll go back to work". I worked, that's when he started accusing me…I'm
jolling . I said: "Yes
I'm fucking everybody by the banks" . Because by Victory, you got all the banks around there. JSE is
Opposite the street, Commercial Union
was there. "So, yes I'm fucking with all of them" and mainly is
Blacks. " So what
the hell are you gonna do?" You know, I became that… aggressive person.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You say something to me, I retaliate with something better. Even if I know it’s a lie, but I'm
gonna
come back with something that's gonna hurt you like hell.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And I knew I'm doing it. Then uh….Okay, it went on you know, comes and go. And I keep on
promising
myself. I… I went once to Legal Aid, because then Legal Aid was around
the corner. Then my
boss said: "Juby, Give it seven years of your life. Because why in your first seven
years it's when you
start… learning each other". Because
why see that time my boss was married fourteen years and they had
the same problems.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA:
She said : "Juby". Now me and Annette was born in the same year…and a couple of days
apart.
I'm on the 5th of August, she was on the 28th. So, she said: "Juby, my marriage was the same but
after
my seven years it became smooth. You see how loving me and Helius are. You know? Maybe your
life is gonna come right. Give it seven years of your life".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I said. She said to me: "Because
why the first three years it's very hard. Youce have to learn
each
others problems, you have to learn each others moods. It's very hard to live with somebody you don't
know"
73

INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA: You know? " And youce
are just starting to live together. And I think that's where I got that
hope
of : "Oh, let me try. Maybe after seven years it will come right".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Although you did contemplate leaving before then.
JUBEIDA:
You still have …'leaving'. I, I had that in my mind 'I'm gonna leave you'
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Shit on me, I am. Because
I can't take this shit.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: I went to Legal Aid around the corner. And I filled in the forms.
And then it was his part that
he had to fill in. He took the form
and he tear it up. He said: "What the fuck do you think?" (In a
whispering voice). You know, starting
swearing and things like that. "I will talaq (divorce) you when I feel
like it". And then I started building that hatred. Well, I don't know how it happened but my second child
was
on the way.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Three years down the line. Okay,…I sill had that "Hey, Annette said: 'seven years' ". Lets give
it seven years. Lets see what
happens in seven years. You're down to three, going for your fourth year. Give
it another three years, lets see what
happen. Okay, the third year going for the fourth, my second was born.
Okay, things, like I said, we had our
argument…but he started beating me up. There was many a times at
night when
I said: "No". Its like when he feels like making love its now, and that's it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And I thought to myself: "I'm not a animal".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "Treat me with dignity".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know? There was
many a times I slept on my settee. And I had that "Hey, I can kill you".
You know. Then I said: "Hey, if I kill
you, what's gonna happen to my son. I still had the one.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And here I was pregnant
with the second one.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
What's gonna happen now.
INT ERVIEWER: Ja. There's a lot of things to consider.
JUBEIDA: You know. I have to consider my kids… because why my mom
never left us. You now, she
looked
after us all these years.
74

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: My father wasn't there. Why must I kill this person? I went as far to kill him. With Formulan.
I
had things in my fridge with Formulan in it, for him to suck and dry out.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because I experimented
with Formulan already. Because why the kids used to live with my
mother-in-law during the week.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Right oh. So, its only the two of us at home.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: So whatever, because why he's the type of person whatever's
nice in the fridge, he eats. You
know. And he don't know no chemicals
at all.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: He don't know because why, he's the type, he wants
everything to be done for him.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
He's a … He's a man but he can't put in a nail in the wall. He cannot paint. He don't know
even
how to use a paint brush or if he's just doing it on purpose because I'm the type of person that likes to
do things? That's how he is.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I used to fix my own… plugs and everything. I do everything myself. I'm that type of person. I
don't
like to ask you…twice.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA: I'll ask you once. And he knew that if he's gonna: "Ja, I'll do it now Doll, I'll do it now", just
now I'll take the hammer and I'll do it myself.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JU BEIDA: I don't like to… when I ask you now, you'll do it now or say: "Hey I can't do it", then I know I
mu st do it. But I always used to do everything myself.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JU BEIDA: You know. And that is uh… I think that's…One of my downfalls is I want things done, I want
it now. I don't wanna wait for tomorrow.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JU BEIDA: That's what he was playing on, because why he know I'm that type of a person. I pull myself up
quickly. Or I do things myself. And uh…Well,
because of my kids being at my mom-in-law I
experimented with putting Formulan
in everything.
75

INTERVIEWER: So, even though you didn't leave that you were doing…
JUBEIDA: Ja. Because why he takes the Formulan and hey, he caps out at work. They can't trace
it back
to me.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: He could have gotten it anywhere.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because I can get rid
of those things very quick. You know. Only thing you gonna get it, is…
do test
on the things in the fridge
and they will find that there was Formulan in and they can trace it back
to
me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: They can't trace it back at work because I never had slips or anything.
INT ERVIEWER: When did you start having these thoughts now? How long were you married?
JUBEIDA:
That was after my second child was born. That the night uh…My second child was
born… Yaseen was born. I was by his mom. I gave birth…at uh…Mary Mount. Then… Yaseen was….a
few weeks. We came out of hospital, he was born the Friday night. Sunday, we gave name. I was that
whole
Forty Days (period after birth during which mother and baby must remain at home except for
emergencies,
under Islamic custom) by his mom. No. Ja, I was forty days by his mom. I couldn't see my
mom.
My mom wasn't even at my child's name giving. Right oh. So its like, you look at things, oh its only
he's family.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Not one of my family are here. But I'm a very jolly-go-lucky person.
IN TERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: I agree with every shit. Makes
you happy? Doll, I'm happy you happy, I'm happy.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: That's type of person I was, you know?
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA: Makes them happy-my mom is not here-fine, let them feel happy. They must remember,
they've
got girls too.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because I had two sister-in-laws. And they weren't married. He was the eldest, he was…so he
got first married. Okay fine, I'm very
go-lucky I'm a person, I accept anything.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: As long as the next
person is happy. I got to…um I'm like that. If it makes you happy I'm
happy. Fine. I wouldn't object. Then
uh…Yaseen was a month, we went back home. I was busy feeding
76

Yaseen that night, and I don't know what he did but he started hitting me. And all I could do is protect my
child.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I was sitting on the floor
and I was feeding him. And I think that's where I started, really, I'm,
gonna kill this man. Because I'm working just so hard, like him and this our children. Because…Oh
that…What
happened is, like when I want to go bath, he makes the children cry. And you know I'm like… I
don't
know, I'm like a lion woman, you know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm
JU BEIDA: That hey, I don't like my children to cry while I'm in the bath (laughing voice). Because I
know I left you, you were sleeping,
you weren't crying. How come now I'm in the bathroom the child is
crying? During the day he isn't crying. And I become very aggressive, like you know. Now I come "Why is
the child crying", "No, I don't know, I played with the child". Then he…He was a very jealous person. He
was,
he's jealous on his own kids. He's jealous on his own kids.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Really. And I think he did on purpose, by hurting the children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. Because he wanted my attention. And then we would argue. And I mean
Yaseen
was
a baby, Redwan is three years old.
INTERVIEWER:
Gee.
JUBEIDA:
You know. What the hell. And I couldn't take that. And anyway, when I…then I… It was
Ramdhaan
(holiest month in the Islamic calendar, during which Muslims are obligated to fast) time. I was
looking for
a job. Because why then again he started
complaining, he's working alone, there's not this. I
said : "Faisal, we getting along on your salary, you're not earning much, but why are you complaining?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"Ja, but soon it's gonna be Eid ( Islamic holy day celebrated at the end of Ramdhan) and this
and that. Okay, you're complaining and my one friend, Ragie, gave me phone numbers of two pharmacies
that
need some people. Said, okay fine,- I didn't tell him-I'm going in tomorrow to the Plaza, let me phone
them
from there. So that's when I phoned. I phone Melville. They said come in for an interview. I said:
"Today is not, I'm not dressed properly,
but I'll see youce tomorrow". Then I phoned High Bree pharmacy,
wh ich was opposite the Plaza. I'm not dressed properly for the interview (laughing). And I thought, okay,
they'll also give me a day. Then uh… Mrs. Van Zyl asked uh, no not Mrs. Van Zyl, Mr. Bluaw asked:
"Where
are you?" I say: "No, I'm in the Plaza". He said: "Can you come over now?". I said: Fine, I'll come
over
but I'm not dressed for a interview. He said: "Doesn't matter, just come over". And I went over for the
interview.
Sitting and talking there. And… I left. You know. They say okay we'll let you know. Now I
know
that let you know, it will take a week, two weeks, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I said : "Oh, I at least I went for an interview, I feel better about myself".
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
I went over. I went to go buy what I needed for the outfit that my mom-in-law
made and
everything. And I went home. I got home, my landlord goes: "Juby, Juby, where have
you been?" I say:
77

"Why? I've been in the Plaza. I'm not long ago but just now". She said: "No, your mom-in-law phoned.
They
said you must come and start tomorrow". I said: "What?" She said: "Yes, they were still looking for
you and you were missing. Where have you been? You must start tomorrow half-past seven". I said : "Oh
shukar,
Ya Allah ( Oh thank God), I'm going to work". Well the kids already started living with my in-laws.
And
uh that's when I started on the fourteenth of July. With them. And I, because I'm a very independent
person,
I never asked him a cent.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: It was even hard for me,
the three months that I was at home with my kids, to ask him to buy
me pads.
Because I made sure I had
everything when I worked.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And as with Yaseen at the end, I had to ask him: "Faisal, I need pads". You know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
It was very hard. I mean he's suppose to see. Okay, although he gave me he's money. One
thing, we used to put our money together.
But he's like, if he puts fifty rand in, he want's a hundred rand
out of it. You understand?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
That's the type of person
he was. And that's when I started….When I worked…a year at High
Bree, and now we used to mix a lot of
things. And we had Formulan. Formulan was over flown because of
the supply for clinics. We were the whole salers for Clinic Holdings, you know. So, what the hell is going
to k now? So, when Yaseen turned one…then that's the day when I got the apple cider for the cake. To, to
make the…the topping, the icing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And I said to the guys: "Hey, just give me a small bottle of Formulan". "For what you want?".
"No,
man for my nails, I'm gonna put it in my
nail polish". They say: "But you not using nail polish". I say :
"He y, my nails are breaking, just look at my fingers" ( in an animated voice). And I got a small bottle, you
know. And I bought the apple cider for the cake. The citric acid for the cake. And I bought the Formulan.
And I looked at it. I stashed it away
in my cupboard. Because now Formulan, I used to use years ago when
I was in the
house, because I used to do… plants and I used to inject the…the locus and things like that.
And
like, they stay normal.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja?
JUBEIDA:
So, if you want to have a locus just stay like it is, look alive, you inject it with Formulan. And
I looked
at that: "No man, that thing stays like that, the flower stays like that. Hey! Lets do it on humans.
They
wouldn't trace it" (laughing). They going to stay so stiff also ( both interviewer and Jubeida laughs).
They'll
just get a heart attack somewhere. I'm sure
it's gonna work on humans (laughing). And I say the
only thing
that's gonna happen is if he eats it, he's gonna have a burning feeling, because now Formulan
burn.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Because why that I tried on myself already (both interviewer and Jubeida laughs). It
do burn.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
78

JUBEIDA: Because why I had it on my fingers. And if it touch the skin, it burns like hell. It's fire,
you…There's
not even ice. I had my fingers in the ice that day, to get that burn out. So I know what
Formulan.
So, little doses, he'll have little burns. You know it will burn, it's not really gonna kill him at
once.
It's gonna take time. So, fine. And my kids are not there. So what happened is, where I really started
doing
it was I bought ice quenchers for the kids. And uh… I mean, we as adults, I used to bake for us
weekends
because why my kids come home on Friday nights and uh…things like that, you know. And
when
my kids come, ice quenchers is finish I bought them, the chocolates I buy them is finished, he's eating
it more
all. But I'm buying it for my kids. That's when I decided that day. I got up that weekend. You know
he was a guy of playing pool, and I left him. I said: "It's your… happiness, if it's gonna keep you happy, go
play
pool with your cousins, go out, I'm not worried.
INTERVIEWER:
Even though he didn't allow you that freedom?
JUBEIDA: He didn't allow me freedom to come to my mom, its always his family only. You understand?
And I'm the type I wanna clean my house on weekends because I'm not during the week
there. So,
weekends I scrub and polish, clean out, my kids are there, you know I'm happy to have my kids around me.
At night what I used to do on a Saturday afternoon, I'll come home, do washing quick, clean up- because
the Friday night I started- finish up where I ended, pack up my washing because why I'll come home and
I'll bath the kids at five. Five o'clock my kids knew "Mommy, we going in to the shower". Because why I'll
put them their jamies or I'll take them out. We'll only take a drive to Southgate, just for a milk shake or if
it's not for a milk shake, we'll just go and walk around.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
But that was …Fridays. Saturdays, I mean, he has to take us. If he goes out after that, I don't
care.
As
long as my kids went.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know, and that's how it is. And that day I decided, that night, (in a whispering voice) he's
gone
out, the kids are not here, I got syringes.
And I started injecting all the… ice quenchers and I left it in
the bottom
of the fridge. Because I only had
a fridge, I didn't have a freezer. The freezer was here by my
mo m. So, the meat was on top and I put right at the bottom, under all the ice quenchers. It's like I, I knew
which ones, so that I don't give it to my
kids, you know. And those were the ones like "Only for you". And
it just happened
so that he never went that week in to the fridge. That ice quenchers lay for a month in the
fridge.
And I said, no, let me get rid of it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because the one Saturday morning the kids are gonna go in to that fridge and then they're
gonna
take it. And to see my kids burning like that….
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
CO-RESEACHER: It wouldn't be
nice.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: So I took it out and I threw it away. I did the same with the cake
I baked… and its just that
certain ways Allah kept it that "Hey, don't eat, don’t touch".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: And he never did. You know. But that's how
I planned. Already starting that.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
79

JUBEIDA: Slow hatred. I wanna kill him. But I'm gonna do it slowly. Because why if I', gonna do it
immediately,
they gonna catch me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: But slowly, they wouldn't
catch me (laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why he eats all
over, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA: And uh…one that, okay, I decided afterwards "No, it's not gonna work, Juby, leave it. Leave it
in Allah's hands. Allah knows best.
Give it a try. "And …Okay the beating was still there, we had our
arguments, we had our fights. There
was a time, one… Saturday. Yaseen was in the car, then he packed up
my things. Now these cupboards goes on top there (pointing to the cupboards in her bedroom).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Right oh. He took all my things out. He put it in my cases. "I'm taking you to your mom. I said:
"Fine.
Go tell my mother". Cause why already, so far that was the second
talaq (divorce decree that is the
right of the husband. After the third decree the marriage is dissolved) he gave me. "I'm divorcing you. I had
enough of you". Shit with you. I said:
"Fine, take me to my mother". Why don't you do it ? I just had so
much
of you".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"Ja, if I'm gonna leave you, you gonna become murtad (a person who after being a Muslim,
denounces Islam). I said
"What? My mom brought me up all these years alone. I might not have gone to
madressa (religious school),
but I know my kalima (testimony that there is one God and the Muhammad
(peace be upon him) is the messenger
of God)". ( In a very compelling and intense tone of voice).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And I say and that's keeping me a Muslim.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Sure.
JU BEIDA: "I know what's right and wrong".
INTERVIEWER: Ja. Sure
JUBEIDA: "I know how to bath me, I know how to clean me. You didn't make me Muslim".
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: I say: "Who the hell are you". So uh… he packed
up my things. I remember that I said I don't
wanna to go because why then he wanted to take my kids away from me. And he knew that is… my life.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Is my kids.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
80

JUBEIDA: I knew… I remember I got out of the car, while the car was moving. And the another car came
past
and they said: "Ja, leave the bitch on the highway", like you know (in an animated tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Jee.
JUBEIDA: And uh it just worked
on me. He drove as far as Viking, then he turned back. I don't know
what made him turn back. Take me back to Bosmant. Okay, we went
back home and the kids was with.
My
kids
were a rack. Yaseen…up till the last, whenever he used to hear me raising my voice "Mommy are
youce
fighting again, huh?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "Huh? Why are you people fighting?" And I said: "Son, we're not fighting, we just talking".
Because why that's how he got into it. And
uh…then already I decided "I don't want you but for the sake
of my kids. If this is what I have to go through
for my kids, I will do it. I will go through it. Because why
now it's my kids, it's not you anymore".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JU BEIDA: "I'm working for my kids". Although it used to break me, because why he used to go make
credit all
over. He'll go buy food on credit. He'll buy
things on credit at work and I have to pay.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
He don't think of first what accounts we have. That's when I decided "Hey, Forshinis gets
closed
down. Sales House account gets closed down because why you feel you want to buy…It's good to
buy but it's
not good to pay".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"I have to see to it. So, my name. My name hangs on credit and I hate a bad name on credit".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: So , I closed all my credit
accounts. I closed Forshini.
INTERVIEWER:
So, you were quite in charge of your life?
JU BEIDA: Ja, independent. I …I closed my Forshini account, I closed my Thruworths account. Because
why I'm a person, I like to buy people
things, you know. If I like something I'll go buy it, irrespective what
price. Because I know at the end of the day I'm gonna pay for it.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA:
But I liked that, you know. I used to buy for my kids. And then I thought to myself: "But hey,
he's not paying,
he don't care. He wants to argue about money all the time". It's like then…That's when his
mother
said: "Oh, but he's working the whole year".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I said; "Oh ja, Ma". You know. That's the type of person, I will say "ja". But deep down
something
else will come up.
81

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then I thought to myself:
"He's working the fucking whole year (in a whispering tone) what
the hell happened to me!
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: Didn't I work this year?
Don't I deserve also?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JU BEIDA: I saved my money. Not he's money, my money. And he wants to spend it. I cant even buy me
a b loody
panty…without reporting (in a rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I can't buy my mother a scarf…without reporting (in a rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER: Mm. And yet you were also working.
JUBEIDA: And I'm working just as hard as him. To hell with it. That's also when I decided "To hell
with
it man. I'm gonna buy my mother. I'm gonna buy for me".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And …accounts…we closing down. Because why I'm paying it and you're wearing it. That's
when I closed all my accounts. Truworths,
Forshininis, Edgars, Sales House. I had all the accounts.
Bec ause
why he married me with those things because I had a brother that I supported. That's why up till
today my mother says I spoiled my
brother, by wearing expensive clothing. I said: "That's the type of
person…But expensive in a way of
…buying on sale. From the same shop. I like the thing but I'm not
gonna buy it. You're five hundred rand, no ways. I'm gonna wait till you're on sale.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And I used to go buy it… on sale.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: And the girls already knew me at Edgars and Forshinis and that. So, sometimes they used to
keep, deliberately, my size, backwards
until the things go on sale. You know. Then the thing go on sale
and I'll buy it.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: You know. Because I used to wear jeans and top. Not ladies' shirts, men's shirts. I used to wear
men's
shirts and skippers underneath.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I used to wear tracksuits
which was men's tracksuits. I used to buy in Truworths in the men's
department. Never in the ladies' department.
But that's how they knew me. Because I was half woman, but I
82

was woman.
INTER VIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. And uh…
I closed down my accounts. So If you wanted to buy, Boy, it was cash.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. so you worked out, like strategies, to cope around this thing?
JUBEIDA:
Ja, now we gonna buy…cash.
INTERVIEWER: And how long were you married now?
JUBEIDA: That was… by that time we were married…Ridwan was four, going
on five years. Because
why now we're going for our seven years. Thinking "Okay, it's gonna come
right. In seven years. Lets give
it to the seventh".
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: Let's go. Because
why now I still had that, because now my boss was older than me and… I
always take advise from people, you know. I f it works for you, it's suppose to work for me too.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I know what I want in life. And uh…so five years down the line. It's still I have to take shit
from
his mother, his sisters, it's like weekends going through…sometimes we go through to his mother and
them. I spend time there. It's a hell
of a argument coming to see my mom. You know. Okay, and then, but
if
he has
a fight with his family, then my mom is good enough. You understand? When Yaseen
was…two…that
was my five years. He had a …that's when he lost his job.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
At Parkenol. Then we went… Then he started going on with my landlord. You know they're
old people. And everybody used to tell me: "How the hack do you get along with Sis Momeen.
I said me
and Sis Momeen, we fine. I get along with her very well and her husband. There's nothing wrong.
But
bec ause why he's a very rude person. He has no respect for big people. During the day he used to have
arguments with the old lady. So, one
night she told me, she said: "Juby, I can't take it anymore. Faisal plays
t.v whole
night. Whole day he leaves the light on". Which is expensive because, although we pay water
and lights, but it's, it's for both of us, you know. She said: "Why must our water and lights be so expensive,
when
if one person could cut off". She say "I'm cutting off lights here in the big house, why can't he cut it
off? "
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I spoke to him. The he said: "Ag, this old witch", and calling her names and things like that,
you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Being very irresponsible.
JUBEIDA: Irrespective. You know he had no respect for big people. And uh, then uh, she got tired of
him . Because why during the day I'm at work. I come home from work. Jir, but this morning there was two
cups, here's the whole sink full of dishes, you know. There's nothing cooked. When we got married, he
learned
to cook. He'll phone me…They always used to laugh when it was at my first job "Jee, you got a
nice
husband", because
he gets home first, because now he's at Parkenol, I'm coming from town. Then he
phone: "Juby, what
must I cook? Can I make baked beans and mince". Then I say yes. "How do you do it".
And I tell him over the phone. I say you cut the onions, this that
and the other, you fry this first then you go
83

ahead. Or: "When you get home, take out the fish, make the tomato gravy so long". I used to tell him how
to do
it. Then he'll write it down step by step and he'll do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: When I get home it's like he started already and I'll come finish up, you know. Here I come
hom e,
the man is not working, the bed is not made up. Now I mean, you door opens on your bed. Because
why
we had a …one room now.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes.
JU BEIDA: You know. How? He's not working, the bed is not made up. The house is not sweept out.
Come to the kitchen. The kitchen is dirty.
You know it's like, "Oh shit, not again", you know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. You know, you're so irresponsible, you feel like "Hey, I can go back to where I
came
from.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, ja.
JU BEIDA: You know,
that type of a thing. Already you're dik. Now you don't even want to speak to this
person. Then he comes and talk to you. I said: "But you know what, you know, you didn't make up the
bed,
what was wrong, why you're not making up the bed (as if speaking to a young child), the t.v's playing,
you've
got videos standing here, couldn't you just wash the dishes?" Then he started blaming the old lady of
putting
the water off. Then I said: "Faisal, there's such a thing, there's water in the kettle to wash the dishes.
She puts on the water before I come. You could have washed the dishes. Even if I come and find it…wet
but at leased it's washed. I don't like dirty dishes.
Dirty pots, the way you made your food and things during
the day. You don't think I'm coming from work". You know. And then he started arguments. Now the
arguments
are starting. Okay, I'm a tolerant person (sighing). But I'm a type of person, I'll have and
argument
now, I'll say what I wanted to say and then I'll be quite. Then he started getting mad "I'm talking
to you,
listen to me" and I want to sleep, I'm going to work, you're not working. He used to keep me up all
night.
And he'll nag the whole night, yap, yap the whole night. Then old things from the beginning to the
end comes out. Now you have to listen to that. Jong, I, I adopted that attitude that "Hey, I can look at you,
because
why, you want me to look at you, nè, and I can sleep at the same time. And, I, I can do it! And
that's
what he made me… adopt. That… I look at him, you mos want my face, you want my eyes open, and
I'll sleep. I wouldn't hear a thing he's saying. Then he say: "Did you hear what I'm saying". Then I say:
"Yes,
carry on. Are you finish now?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know and he get cross. And I hate if he touch my face. And he knew that. To start a
argument,
so that I can hit him or he can hit me, he's frustrated now, he used to touch my face.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Or my butt. You know.
And that is how we used to start fighting. One night I, uh, I got tired
of h im hitting me…No, he had… winds, right, he had gastro. And I was lying on the bed and he asked me:
"What can I drink? Here's Lennons". It's for the kids. I said: "Ja, you can drink Lennons". He mixed a
mixture.
He threw everything, you know, baby drops, Rooi lavental, Wit dulsies, Peppermint drops, the
only
thing that wasn't in that mixture was Harlemensies (laughing). And I said: "Yes, put… five drops of
everything
in" and I was lying in bed…I was reading and he's carrying on. And… he drank it. Alright I left
him (laughing). That night I was half
awake, when that wind pushed up, it actually pulled him like a person
wh ose
lying straight up in bed, he was right up in the bed (laughing). Then he woke up and he said: "Hu! I
thought
I'm dead" I said: "What happened". Now I could hear the wind pushing up from his stomach and
84

that wind just came out like your whole last bit came out (laughing). And he was uh, like afraid. "I'm
dying".
He was white. He's… dark of complexion, he's darker than me.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA: But he was white (laughing).
I said "Is it ?" " Ja, didn't you hear the wind?" I said : "No, I
didn't hear anything". In the meantime I heard it all because why I, I became that type of person-any minute
I could
kill him. I even was thinking of putting wax in his ears.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why he got a ear
problem. You know, I was lying and thinking I could put sugar into
the engine.
But what happen if he have to take me to work that morning? You know, I'm not gonna die with
you. You
gonna die, you die on your own.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: My kids comes first. That is how I became
from five years already.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Planning how to kill this person. The hatred started building up. But in that hatred, there
was a
bit time
for love as well.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
You know, there was time for love. I don't say we stopped making love in five years.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: We still had our love-making
but there was arguments, there was always a fight. You know,
things
like that. I even went on to fertility drugs. To get me… To take that hatred part…You know if he
touched
me…I had hatred…If he touched me I had that hatred. You know it was like somebody had raped
you. You know, that type of feeling.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
That's what I had when my own husband touched me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know that's what
I had. So, I said to them at work: "What do I do, you know". There was a
tablet…on the market for men. I took it. Just to take…Because why when you take that tablet, you don't
have that
feeling anymore. You know, that it's :I hate this person that you're with.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: It's just to keep still the
marriage going.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm. So, that's what you were willing to do.
JU BEIDA: That's what I …I did it. It's not that I was willing to do it. I did it just to say…Because why
every
time he touched me, it's like I tense up.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
85

JUBEIDA: And, you know, but now when he touch me, then he make an argument out of it. To leave that
argument
out and to have that free love going, you know. "Hey, go on, it's free, it's yours, take it! I'm your
wife
(in an animated tone)".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I went as far as that. And
I bought it from High Bree, I bought it at work. And only the people
fro m work knows that I did. But they never knew what my life was at home.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: I always put him as the
loving husband.
INTERVIEWER: Really?
JUBEIDA: You know, and the good husband.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: They never knew what I went through at home.
Then he didn't work, okay. Then, we
moved out, Yaseen was two, we
moved in here by my mom. Then he started he's nonsense, you know,
beating me up. And the worse thing,
I couldn't take it, is when it comes to my mom, you know. And the
kids grew
up, now Ridwan started school. Okay, and my mom went overseas. There's times when he can
be loving and there's times when he can be really horrible. He's a horrible, horrible person.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
There was one night, he and my brother was working…watching t.v. Just a simple, musical
type
of a thing. I'm telling you, did they have a fight in this room. That it had me against my family.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then I said: " I can't stand
off my husband, for my brother". He is my husband, after all.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. And it was actually:
where do you go from here. Knowing myself he's sisters got
married, he's mom's got a four bedded, bedroom house, she didn't want us there. My mom gave us this flat,
that we
live in, for us to move in here.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: She gave her furnisher
away, so that I could move my furnisher in here, huh. Which his family
didn't
do.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: He didn't think of that.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And…, I mean we lived, how long? Nine years. No. I'm now, Yaseen is thirteen, eleven, two
86

years back- nine years with my mom. And every time we had an argument, my mom will hear it. You
know.
And you know how's mothers.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: "What's wrong". "No,
nothing Ma".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And she…There was a time when we moved in here, my mom really hated this man but I
sticked it out. I had to come home,
then he say: "Why your mom did that?" There was times I had to choose
between
my mom and my husband. "oh, it's my husband".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Ma, I can't choose you". There was sometimes I did get dik. The only thing I could run to
was: running to the kitchen with my
kids, doing their homework or go into my room, being with the kids in
the small room. "Because I'm sick
of you two".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
"Yous are big adults".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: " Why the hell are you fighting? Why must I sit and listen?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know, I'm always trapped between the two of them.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
It's my mom, it's my husband. If it's not my husband, it's my mother-in-law. Why the hell. No
man. I was living three years with my mom. This is when I said: "Here it's enough is enough
now. You two
fight it out. You wanna fight, fine. I'm gonna be jolly". And I became to create that, that
"Oh, yous
fighting? I'm the jolliest person. I laugh and I joke and I go on with my kids, and, you know, things like
that (In an animated tone). I start, that's how I started sawing. My mom's aunt came to live with us when
she was
sickly. We gave up this room
and we moved into the smaller room. We looked after her. She got
better,
she went home, we moved back into the room.
Then
is uh…he got a job at Garden City. Then I told them, no, he's not working. They said: "No, there's an
opening
there, he can work in the dispensary". He got to work there. Then he worked about two-and-a-half
going
three years, he started stealing. What? Drugs.
INTERVIEWER:
Jee.
JU BEIDA: Still Pain and that. Okay, they caught him. That was on a Friday. Jee, my life was hell. It was
like hell because now I'm involved because why it's the same company. INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know, we're the suppliers, they're the receivers. So it's
like I'm sending things to him and
he's bringing it out!
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
87

JUBEIDA: "Shit! What am I gonna do". But anyway. Okay, my boss didn't worry about that, you know.
So he lost the job in September. Then he got his money. Now it's …he bought a massive t.v. Just before
that
we bought…I used to buy anything. Makes you happy… I bought him a… M-net. I bought him… a video.
We had uh…thirty-six centimetre t.v. Oh that
wasn't good enough. He's working now three years; "Oh, lets
buy a seventy-one centimetre". "Fine! If it's gonna make you happy: switch on, switch off. Fine. If it's
gonna
make you happy, buy the thing".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Went to go buy it by Russels.
Because why Russels know me. I've deal with them since I
started working. As you can see, I've
got reinforcements on my wardrobe. That was for that t.v. Reinforced,
tha t's how heavy that t.v was.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: With switching off, switching
on. I connected it. There was wires, I still got the wires in
my …cupboard. Right through, into the front room. And it was connected from that side to this side, to my
neighbours down stairs. We got a hole
in the front room, where the M-net went down to them. Anyway.
Then…after
okay, after everything happened, then he went into jamat (a group of people that engages in
religious
activities and conveys the message of Islam). But he used to go out. I'm telling you if he goes out
Friday,
he used to comes in Saturday morning. He goes out Saturday night, he comes back Sunday
morning.
INTERVIEWER:
And you accepted it.
JUBEIDA:
I accepted it.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why, that's how I started hating
him that hey, what the hell, whatever he do, more time
for me.
INTERVIEWER: You cut yourself
off.
JUBEIDA: Ja. More time for me and my children to spend time together. I can't be bothered. I want to go
shopping,
I have to pay him petrol money. I wanna go on a Sunday morning or something's missing, I have
to go
to ABC,
I have to put fifty rand petrol.
INTERVIEWER:
Jee.
JUBEIDA:
To take me to ABC. But his mother phone, he comes and he goes and fetch her. No petrol,
nothing
gets put in. Hey, what the hell, you know. I started looking at these things. We paid…That time
when
he started working, we bough a Nissan. Right oh, that was already our fourth car. Because why the
third, they stole just a year before that. Just one month payment.
So, now we sitting without a car, we
bought the fourth car, it was a…Nissan.
Right oh. He lost his job, I paid the Nissan finish. Here his money's
coming "Hey, you have to pay", you know. "Let's pay our accounts finish". No, he want's to do this , he
want's to that. He took the money, he went into business with his father
and them. Right oh, Nissan… was
paid finish that time. "Juby, let's go into business, my father and them are going to open a … the obholstry
company".
"Fine! How much do we have to put in to have a share". "A thousand rand". To me a thousand
was
nothing .
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
88

JUBEIDA: Now, one thing, or even with my in- laws. My father-in-law is a person, he always has money.
If I have money I'll borrow him. If he has money I'll borrow him, you know, I'll borrow from him. That's
how…he
used to be with me. And if my mom-in-law wanted something to be done, she'll ask me. "Juby,
tell you father the iron has to be fixed". "Da, the iron is not working". My father-in-law will get up, straight
away
and go fix the iron. My mother-in-law will ask, it takes two weeks to be fixed. I want the ironing
board
to be done… Because why they know I do things.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Da, the ironing board
is not working". He'll get up…he even made a bigger ironing board,
which my mom-in-law got now, still.
Because why I asked him for it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: You see like this room-divider here. I asked him…I moved in here, about three years later I
asked him : "Da, I don't have a room-divider,
the one my mom has is so small. You know, I can't wait till
you make
Ma one". Then he said: "Okay,
I'll see". That time he worked still. Then my father-in-law made
me one at work.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then he brought
it. This one. He made it, he brought it. Then he brought it up. My brother was
wo rk,
dingese… he just got married. I asked my brother just to assemble it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because otherwise if I had the things I assemble the things myself. It's just to shoot
the things
together.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
But the cupboards were framed and every thing was done. My father-in-law made this for me.
Then…
We had
a good… relationship.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: But, like I said, when me and my husband had a fight, it was the biggest hatred thing between
us. And for all these years that I was married, and I lived by my mom, whenever we had a fight here, I
promise
you,- according to Islam we suppose to have
mahgrims from both sides (guardians/
rep resentatives)-
I only had mahgrims form his side.
He's one uncle, was always the one we used to go to.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
We had sessions on sessions. There wasn't a month that go by that we don't have a session
with
his uncle.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And where? By his mother's
house. Not my mother going. Not my brother going. Not my uncle
going.
INTERVIEWER:
Only from his side.
JUBEIDA: Only his family
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
89

JUBEIDA: We had sessions.
INTERVIEWER: So, even though there
were like attempts to make things better, but it's only from his
side.
JU BEIDA:
From his side. Only his family. And I promise you, that was one thing of his uncle, he always
tried to fix
this marriage.
INTERVIEWER:
Né?
JU BEIDA: Until the end. I went as far as telling him: "You know what, Taha, this is what happened, tell
me if
I'm still married to this man? Because why, he gave me two talaqs (divorce crees) already. He already
told me
how my heart is , he tells me Shaitan ( Satan) is my…teacher, huh. He want's to keep on telling me
that
my salah ( prayers) is not accepted, huh?"
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA: He want's to tell me that I'm worse than a run-away slave.
I'm a murtad (one who abandons the
religion of Islam). I'm a kafir (a disbeliever).
What gives him the right, to call me that.
INTERVIEWER: Mm!
JUBEIDA:
Since he's in jamat ?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Huh?
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why that was the time when he stared going into jamat.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So,
It wasn't just the physical things.
JUBEIDA: No, the physical things stopped
uh, like, let me tell you, when he lost his job. Then he
became…mentally. INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
So now already physically, I build up…very much hatred.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: I didn't even want him to touch my children. You know. So, now he's starting to work on mementally.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And that is when the real thing came in. Because I used to tell him: "You know what? It's not
like you put these things on me, it's on my dress, that I take off, and it gets washed off. Do you know
how …"Ja!
But you're supposed to forgive and forget". I said : "Ja, Allah say: 'Forgive and forget'. Do you
forgive
and forget?" "Oh, but I love you Poppie ". "Poppie se moer. You love me, then you will forgive
and forget".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
90

JUBEIDA: "You wouldn't bring up old things all the time. You wouldn't go dig into my past. I told you
when
I got married to you that what was my past".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: "You knew every thing,
huh? And still you wouldn't believe. And all my friends that you meet
on the street . I jolled with every body, I slept with every body. So what does that make me? A slut". I said:
"You
made me one. You made me a bitch. And that's when I started becoming… very bitchy. What they
call
now real bitchy.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You throw something at me, I'll throw something better at you. And I'm going to hurt you. And
whether you're gonna hit me…Because
why then I was up to that stage: "Oh, you're gonna hit me, it’s
gonna be there now, just now it's gonna be gone". You know. But I said what I wanted to say.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Cause why, before I used to keep quiet. I used to make a lot of istigaar (prayer that is said
wh en you need guidance in making an important decision), tauwba (repentance). "Ja, Allah, forgive me".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
You know. I'm weak.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. You know, and things like that. But then when it became to the physical abuse, that
is when he was…. the second year at home. After
paying all the accounts off, after he lost his job at Garden
Cit y. Then
starting to get now…He's mos now in jamat. Now it's all going "I just got it". How it started, I
started thinking, you know, started
feeling… naked at work, without wearing pans or top, used to wear my
mini
skirt.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Because why, now, I'm married and what happened is, I got my first dress from my boss,
when
I went to a dance before I got married. That was the first two dresses in my cupboard. Then… I got
married,
my mom-in-law
started making me dresses, you know I started wearing skirt. That's how I got out
of wearing
pans and top.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Then my kids were born. I said: "No, I have to change because of my kids. I can't let them see
me being like this".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: So, you change a little bit. And then he started deciding, okay going into jamat…It's the right
thi ng. That is what I wanted to do.
Okay, let's start changing my way of dressing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And it was winter
that year, then I decided, "Hey, I'm gonna wear scarf permanent". Because I
never wore
scarf permanent at work.
I used to wear scarf but then I take it off at work, going out to the
91

Plaza I put on a scarf again. Things like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm. I know what you're saying.
JUBEIDA: Then that winter, when they didn't say anything, oh, you know
about the scarf whole year,
whole
three months of winter, then I started wearing it permanent.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: And still they didn't say
anything; up till today.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: They never said a thing that "Hey, you can't wear like that". They started accepting. Then…
my dresses started getting longer.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. Then when I…One day
I was standing at work and it's like " Huh! Something is
loo king up under me ( laughing)" . I thought "Am I naked". My aunt said: "No man, Juby, you're patty-coat
is th en hanging out". I say: "I felt so naked now" ( both interviewer and Jubeida laughs). You know I just
started feeling naked.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
Then I said: "Huh-uh, it's high time I started wearing pants".
RESERACHER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's how I got to…making, getting me koertas (long, loose fitting cloacks)
and making pants. For all my dresses I made… I started wearing a pants. You know, that's when I bought
my self
a machine, which was also an effort for him. I bought…Well, the knitting machine I bought when I
was in… Bosmont. And uh…I started
making my own dresses. Then I said to my mom-in-law: "No, now
my dresses
have to go along with pants",
you know. And, that's how I started going into… koerta .
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Okay, also that's when we started becoming…not strict, but starting, you picking up on your
Salah
(prayer).
INTERVIEWER:
Right, okay.
JUBEIDA: You start thinking of…You
know you're getting conscious of this: "Hey, this thing happened
to you in life, why?" Oh, it's because I'm neglecting this, I'm neglecting that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: My boys are growing up, they're going to madressa (religious school). I can't read Arabic but I
mu st be an example to them (in a whispering tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
I want them to live a better life.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
92

JUBEIDA: And that is how my life started changing. But now as we are changing, you're becoming
more…worse
then.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: You're swearing ugly.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You don't have no way
to speaking to my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And the day… he could push my mom that she fall, that's when I said: "Enough is enough".
When he started hitting the big one
with fists, like me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Your children.
JU BEIDA: No. Enough is enough. This I can't take. I did buy him a gun. I even went as far, to keep him
happy.
I bought him a gun.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA:
I paid two thousand four hundred. I even went as far as to getting him…a license. He didn't
even
go to a shooting range.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You just organised everything.
JUBEIDA:
I organised it. We got it done for him. You know. Because why I'm that type of person, if
you' re working, I'll get it for you. You know, cause why….And it was like whatever his friend had he want
it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. So his one, two friends had guns. I said: "Fine''. And then I still choose the gun
also.
"No man, don't buy a pistol, a forty-five is nicer", you know. Okay fine. I always used to… do things
and then
afterwards I used to say: "Why the hell did I do it?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
But I do it. That's the type of person that I am, you know. And the day he put the bullet through
that,
he lost his head. Right there (pointing to the wall), there's a bullet right in that wall. He forgot there
was
a one up in the bulle…in the gun. And I was doing washing in the bathroom. And he pulled the gun
out. I don't know what he wanted to do. Normally he put it against his head. But
that day he aimed it to the
mirror.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
It went right through. When that shot went off, all I could scream was, I didn't scream Faisal, I
screamed
Ridwan. Because why the kids was around.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And
then the first thing I looked where's my child (laughing) and I just saw him running in
also. And he was standing here, you know.
But anyway, that was one. And that's when he, that's the time he
93

started with Pagad (people against gangsterism and drugs), when Pagad started in Elsodo's. And he became
very
aggressive.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: He used to bring back problems home. Then it's always arguments. And he was a type of
person, you know like, he'll come and he'll tell me: "Oh Feroza got sick", you know. "Hey what's wrong".
"No she's in an accident", this that and the other. Okay fine, that's tonight. Two days later I'll come and I'll
ask "Hey, how's Feroza, is she okay, didn't you go see her?" " Why the hell do you want to know about
her?
(In a harsh, male tone of voice). It's like, "What's wrong? what the hell do you and Feroza got in
common?",
especially if it's a guy.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, ja.
JUBEIDA: How? You told me the
person is sick or he was in an accident…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
So it's just concern, how is the person.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA: And especially if it was people I knew. Because now they
in and out now of my house.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JU BEIDA: You know. They here,
they come, we go camping together. We go places, you know. I go to
their
place and they come to my place. Then afterwards I got to a stage where I don't go with him to his
friends.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why, we come home, it's a fight. We go to them, it's a fight. We go to his family, it's,
we gonna fight. I got a finger that I cut. I cut a finger here already. Which I stitched myself. Also through
him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why, he grabbed the knife out of my hand. You understand? Things like that. Then I
said:
"Why the hell are you going through this Juby?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: "You go and you give and you give. What about you're life?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I say: "You're gonna go cuckoo man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
94

JUBEIDA: Because why you don't talk to people about you're life. You always give this honcky dory, nice
thing.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA: At home. You, you tell
them: "Oh, it's fine". You tell them there's arguments, but you don't tell
the m everything.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. How
bad it really is.
JUBEIDA: How really deep it goes. Because why, you don't
want to…You still dream of a happy-golucky
life.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "You wanna go mad? Hey you've got children to live for, huh? You're not gonna get out of this
marriage, you're gonna go mad. How long you're gonna keep this up?" And that happened?…On the
mu ssalah
(prayer mat) (crying). I was making namaz (praying) and it just came: "What life do
you want? How far are you gonna go with this? This man comes home, he fights. He goes out, do his thing.
What
life do you have, huh? He don't have time for you, he don't take your children with you, nothing?
You
have
to pay for every thing. And now you're working for him?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And it's like he's treating you like shit. And the only time…Where it also get worse is, the only
time he baths is when he want's to be with you? Huh? Because why you say
you istinja (ablution after
using
the toilet), you're clean? You wash like
a Nasara (Christian), that there's not enough hot water? What is it
to get
undressed and to get into the shower?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Every morning.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You're clean. Huh? He
started this business with his father, that's when he bought the bakkie.
The Nissan
was paid finish, then we
trade in the Nissan for the bakkie. Because why now, it's for lounge
suits. I'm a person, you could persuade
me, I'll buy it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "You know, we've got no bakkie, we have to get the lounge suites from point A to point B. We
have
to deliver and every thing. How about it?" "Ha, ja well, let me see what I can do. Let me see what I
can get from the bank. What is my money situation. Let me see. Work it out, how much I have to pay
back".
I was always like, "Tell me how much is my pay-back on the
accounts?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Let me see what accounts I have. Okay, I've got A,B and C accounts, okay, that is minor
things.
That I must finish up in two, three months. Oh, the bakkie is gonna cost me so much. Go for
it! (Silence). You understand?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
95

JUBEIDA: We went for it, we bought the bakkie. Oh, but the bakkie is not for my convenience. I even got
him to transport kids in the bakkie. Hum? Paying the petrol. I went and I applied for a credit card.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA: With the credit card, came
the petrol card.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And my petrol card comes
to two thousand rand. And you pay me a thousand rand for petrol?
From the school children collection.
Where the hell does eating and drinking come from.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA: You bring Dick, Tom and Harry. Now, me, you bring somebody that's hungry, I pack out my
cupboards, Dear. Whatever there's
two of, I'll give one for that person, one for me. Or even if I take my
last.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Hey, tomorrow will see to himself.
I will buy tomorrow again. I'll give, I'll pack out. That's
how I was. And he knew me for that. He always told me: "You got a good heart. But you got a filthy
mouth". I said: "Who made me like
that?"
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
You made me like that. You made me a witch.
That's what I am. And that's where…But in
tha t there was hatred for this man. I had a lot of hatred and I still have. I don't think if I see him. I don't
think… if I see him tomorrow, I will pick him up in the street. I will make him die (silence). Because why
that's how much hatred I got for him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And uh where it got more is, the night when he came home, he had a small knife And he, I
don't
know, we had some Islamic discussion. And then he said: "For the sake of Islam, I'll kill you and me
kid s in your sleep". I said: "What?" He said: "Ja".
I said: "That's why you're walking with a knife?" He
said: " Ja". I said: "Fine, no problem", you know. I said my kalima, (testimony that there is one God and
the Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the
messenger of God)". went to bed. But now I don't sleep any
more. And that was now, coming for three
years.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I'm not sleeping, you know. Cause why I'm thinking: "When is this man getting up". Whenever
he used to move I used to…be awake, but I never moved.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JU BEIDA: To listen: "Hey, when are you going to my children?"
INTERVIEWER: Yes.
JUBEIDA: Because why now you're threatening my children. You're not
beating us up any more. But you
have
that,
you know, threatening you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
96

JUBEIDA: And he is the type of person that can do it. Although he, he don't have guts.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I've got the guts to do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: But he is a coward. You
know and he's a rude person. Then he get very rude. He went for hajj
(ho ly pilgrimage
to Mecca) even.
And that happened just after he came back from hajj. Then all this
happened.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Right? He came back and uh…Then he become…He went for hajj, we didn't even talking.
You
know, you've never had…I don't think
there's any woman who can tell you that: "Hey, my husband went
for hajj and I prayed, I asked Allah: Ya Allah, let the time go so quick for him to go". And when he was
there
you ask Allah:" Ya Allah, Make the time so long that he don't come back".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Or let anything happen….
INTERVIEWER: That was the extend
of how you grew to hate him?
JUBEIDA: That is how I got it. No, but still I put that face on that:
"Hey, my husband is going", you know,
my husband. You know. I still made means to get him money to go. Till the last day, which his mom and
the m came here that Sunday, for his packing. And I burst out crying and I told his brother what happens.
Then his brother went home, he told his father and them. They called us. I went down, still the brave
woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then only, I put everything
on the table.
INTER VIEWER: Wow. What made you do it then.
JUBEIDA: It was…I cried. It's just something in me that went out.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm, okay.
JU BEIDA:I
said to them: "Yous don't know…I've never knew that you can make dua (pray) and Allah
acc ept
it (crying)… Then my sister-in-law turned around and said: " Hey Juby, why didn't you ask for
money? Why didn't you ask for anything else. I said: "That wasn't the
thing I wanted to ask for" (still
crying). INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because I came to that close…
And your brother is going away… (Crying).(Silence). And
that
is why the hatred is so. My brother-in-law offered him money. He goes and make a deal with the guy
97

for… to have extra money. He's father gave money, he's brother gave money. But his ticket was paid for,
his accommodation was paid for. It was like spending-money, you know. And because of we had a fight
and a argument still on the last, and he still didn't ask mauf (forgiveness).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: Then it's…You know I've never seen people leaving for hajj (holy pilgrimage), where the
house looks dark. You know when my husband left for hajj, it was so dark. There was no noor (light that is
symbolic
of blessings) in it. No noor at all. And uh… Okay that night I told them. I still went to the extend
of : "Hey,"… My brother in-law- said: "Well, you can borrow money to go for hajj, if you promise to pay
it in a certain time of period". I said: "Fine. How much you gonna give him?" He said: "Okay, one thousand
six".
I said: "Fine, no problem". I made an agreement with him: "When do you need your money?" He
said:
"Before I go for my next hajj, I need the money". I said: "Okay Tahir, I'll pay you back. In that time,
before
next hajj, when you're going, I'll give you you're money. Don't worry. It gives me a year to work on
it".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Mm.
JUBEIDA: "I'll pay you that one-six". My husband didn't even ask: "Juby, is there money for food for
yous? Is there anything that you need also
money for".
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA:
The day he left, we still road, my brother-in-law went to go draw the money. He went to go
and c hange it by…dingese, Rennies in Fordsburg. And then we went through. To the airport.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I still went that far, I did it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Then, what happened is, I ran short. I don't borrow money. You can ask my mother. I don't ask
my family …shit. Mauf (sorry) to say it. I'm full of nonsense.
But that year I just, I don't know what
happened but I borrowed seven hundred rand from my
brother.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
He was so happy that I asked him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: He gave it to me. Then I did it on purpose, not to pay him back. In that time. Because why, I
want to see what Faisal is gonna do, you
know. So when he came back from hajj(holy pilgrimage)… He's
not working,
he's still not working. What is he gonna do if I'm telling him: "Hey, you borrowed one six
from your brother- in-law. I have seven hundred rand I have
to pay my brother in the next three months",
you know. He came back, then it was a argument. We had a argument from the day one. You know I
regretted…the day my husband came
back from hajj. You suppose to be happy.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why, in that time he was in hajj, there was a fire in Mecca. I don't know if you
remember
the fire.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. I do remember.
98

JUBEIDA: The tents? When the tents were burning.
INTERVIEWER:
I do.
JUBEIDA: That's the year he was
on hajj.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: You know. I regretted the day he came back. I was happy for my uncle-in-laws and friends.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Every hujjaj ( person who undertook the holy pilgrimage), because I went to hajj classes.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA:
All the hujjaj that I went to at madressa that went, I was happy to see.
INTERVIEWER: You happy to see
them.
JU BEIDA: Then…But that was the only thing I regretted. And can you believe me, since he stepped off
that air
that plane…I took money with in case he has to pay for uh excess coming out, duty money, and
anything.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Okay,
lucky he didn't have to pay because why they came that night. But since we got into the
car, up till the night
we got home, we had a fight.
INT ERVIEWER: Wow, coming form hajj (holy pilgrimage).
JUBEIDA:
Coming from hajj. We had our first argument. That same night I packed out his bags and I
said:
"What did you buy for your mother and them". And I made
all his parcels, the same night. Normally,
you wait the next day.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA:
I did it the same night. Every thing. Out. The next day, my washing machine broke and I
washed
his igram (pieces of cloth that men wear on pilgrimage).I washed his igram with my hand. I called
the guys in : "Hey, my machine
is broken". They came the same day. Because why it was a holiday the next
day. His
family came to visit us.
And still I didn't have that much of a wife…I did the first plate with dates
and zam zam water (holy water) and
things, then I put in on the table. The next day I said to his sisters:
"Yous do it. Your brother came from
hajj, do it. It's my mother's house, I'm doing washing".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I did all his washing. But since that day he came back, our lives were miserable. And I think
that is when, the time when he was in Mecca and he came back, when I really, really made up my mind: "I
don't
want you anymore".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why now, you're
using me.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
99

JUBEIDA: And I'm going to go insane.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because I can feel it.
And that is really where we…Oh, once a week was okay. We touch, fine.
You want
it? Oh jee, I need him to bath, okay, let him maar have it. I used to lay there like, I could tell
you:
like a prostitute.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: You have no feelings for a person, but you're sleeping with him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. We have to have…Once more, we had sessions with his family. Then when we had
the last session with his uncle it was
really, really ugly. And … then his uncle even phoned a guy in Cape
Town. We went searching for people on Islamic marriages, I'm telling you. I know all the uluma's (learned
people).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Everybody
whose dealing with what. The one will say: "Listen, I'm not so good on marriage,
phone that one".
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
That one will
say: "I know so far. When it goes further than that, phone that one". And my
uncle-in-law… One thing
of his uncle, he phoned every body. The only guy in the whole South Africa, that
knows the whole thing in Islamic- I didn't do it -Western marriage.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA:
I went Islamicaly.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because I wanted to make
sure, I'm doing the right thing. What is my rights as a woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JU BEIDA: And my uncle-in-law went as far as phoning… Cape Town. That night it rained. I didn't want
my kids to know what's going on. Because why he made me bad. I'm telling you, he told my periods
everything, was laying on the streets. Everybody knews about it. Then, when my uncle-in-law phoned that
guy,
and that guy told us according to sharia (Islamic law), this is how you go. Still. I said: "For the sake of
Isla m,
I'll try it but if it don't work out then I don't know where to then.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
Because why he still said : "According to what happened over the years, it's like we're living
in sin
because why there's no marriage. We suppose to make nikah (marriage) all over. Maybe that's why
our lives are so…up side down.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes. Right.
JUBEIDA: Because of everything that
was said over the years and things.
100

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: So, that is what's suppose to happen. Then I said and talked to myself: "Every night I come
home,
there is a fight. You don't feel like coming home. You're more happier at work than at home".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You get accused of jolling.
I said: "Jirr, If there was just a man in my life that could make me
happy (in a laughing tone of voice). I would have been so happy ( both Jubeida and interviewer laughs). At
least
like: "Oh, I'm getting out I'm gonna see him, you know (in an animated tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: But there's nobody out
there that really attracts me.
INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes.
JUBEIDA:
You know it's like dead. The only things I live for is my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: And I've got a mother to look after. And her health is going because why he's accusing
my
mother of trying to break us up. You know. And when my mother is trying do hard to keep us together.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
Hell. And uh…That's when it just went hay wire. That 1999 Ramdhaan(holy month in which
Muslims
are obligated to fast), it just went. I started moving out of the bed. I started sleeping on the floor,
bec ause why I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't…You know, my hatred got, if he touched me I wanted
to kill
him.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
I really, really. There was a time that I was thinking: " I'm gonna sleep with a knife under my
bed.
The minute he touch me, I'm gonna stab him. You know. If he used to touch me, I used to hit him. We
used to have a fight
here, in this room. We used to say ugly things. Really ugly things to each other. And it
was really
mentally, mentally abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
Because why he used to throw ugly things. And that man got a ugly mouth. Really, really he
got a ugly mouth. Since he came from Mecca, I told him once: "You know what? I think you didn't throw
Shaitan
( Satan), Shaitan did throw you. Because why… (referring to the ritual during a Muslim's holy
pil grimage during which he or she symbolic throw stones at Satin).
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm. It got
worse.
JUBEIDA:
It got worse. You, you not…I thought, you're gonna become a better person. We gonna live
more
Islamically. I say: "Now that we got Islam in our lives, it looks like our lives are worse.
INTERVIEWER:
Shish.
JUBEIDA: I got to a stage where I asked Allah, mauf (sorry) to say this, "Ya Allah, what am I? Must I
bec ome Christian because of the churches outside (in an angry, urgent tone of voice)?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
101

JUBEIDA: "Or am I Muslim?"
INTERVIEWER: Because you're now really
…
JUBEIDA: Which way do I go. You, you loosing it. Cause why
you read hadith (the sayings and practices
of the Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him)), you read kitab (Islamic books), you read your Qur'an and
this man keeps on…Wherever you try to build up, he's breaking it down. And you know, I got to a stage
where
I told him: "You know what? I think Islam is just for men".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And then, then is when
he also called me a murtad (one who denounces Islam after having
been
a Muslim).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "You're a kafir(
disbeliever). How can you say like that".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I say: "But every thing you say, it's like Islam is just for men".
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JU BEIDA: I'm a born Muslim but I became like somebody who came in the deen (religion) .
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because why the way you say things for me, it's just for men, it's just for men.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Then where do we women
as Islam stand then?
INTERVIEWER:
Right. Right.
JUBEIDA: Where do I go to? What
is my rights in Islam?
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JU BEIDA: Then I got that kitab (pointing to a book on a shelf). You see, he don't like Faisal's mom.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why that's when we decided: "Hey, I'm working alone,
now we're gonna do our
shopping. We go: market, once a month
we used to go to market, Then in from market, we spend the whole
day, marketing,
groceries, all our shopping,
we do on that Saturday. Then I come home this time (after
four). Then we'd load off. And I mean you can see I was no where else, but went shopping.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: You know I bring the proof. You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
102

JUBEIDA: And I don't know, what happened, one Saturday when I went to them and I found the one
kitab
(Islamic book). That green, thick kitab there (pointing to a book on the shelf), with all the rules, all
the
masalas
(rulings) and from… birth until death, and, you know, marriage was in it. And I started reading
the kitab. Because why now I want to find out what is my right as a Muslim woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: Now I'm starting to look
because I'm reading.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: I thought to myself….Because
why before I used think everything is in Arabic.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
So, cause I can't read Arabic.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: So…You know, he even went a s far as that
whenever I wanted to try and learn Arabic, I was
jolling with the guys. We went to his friend. This old lady is dead today, she used to sit there when we had
madressa (religious school) . Then it's
her son that teaching us, it's me, it's him sitting next to me, her sonin-law,
daughter-in-law, nephews- and her uncle that's an old man…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I mean he's old enough to be my father- was also there because why we all wanted to learn to
spe ak Arabic, learn Arabic, from the beginning to go into the Qur'an. Reading properly,
the tashweed
(pronunciation) and everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Yes.
JUBEIDA:
It came, I'm jolling with the man. I gave it up… huh? I started…We started madressa (religios
school)
at his mother's place, starting with suras (chapters of the Qur'an) and everything, also his brotherin-law
and teaching. His brother-in-law will
sit there. I will sit first on the floor. And we all will be sitting,
mother and father sitting there. We used to have the things on the walls. Because why that's the time that
his father decided to go for hajj (holy pilgrimage).
So, we put all the duas (prayers) on the walls. Arabic
learning from 'alif, ba, ta ( first three letters
of the Arabic alphabet).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
All on the wall. We all gonna learn. Eager. Getting brothers, sisters-in-laws everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: We used to make it once a week. At the end? If I'm not jolling with Tahir,
I wanted to joll with
Faisal. You know, and it goes on and
on. I mean, we family.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know? How can I jol, we all sitting here? And then they leave first, I'm always the one to
leave last from your mother's place. I don't go out with them nothing. I started withdrawing from that.
People
used to wonder why I'm doing it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
103

JUBEIDA: Because why whenever a man is there, it's like I'm jolling with them.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, you're being accused.
JUBEIDA: I became that, that self effect that "Hey, if I talk
to you too much I'm jolling with you. You
don' t know it but I'm gonna go tonight home and I'm gonna hear about it". I started withdrawing myself
form
the family.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And here he's doing it.
Now I'm jolling at work, with Eric and I'm jolling with Bashir next
doo r. I said this: "Yes, you know what? You're lucky. Actually over the years… you just tickled me. They
giv ing it better to me (laughs). Because why now I know, its hurting him, you know. Because why he keeps
on telling
you.
INTERVIEWER:
So, you didn't care anymore.
JUBEIDA: Now I became
to "I don't care. To hell, you kill me, I know I got it off my system. Or you walk
out here, it's good and well". You know? And uh…the night he took out the gun…but he took out the, the
cartridge and he said: "Shoot me". I said: "Don't dare me. I didn't
say I wanted to shoot you". He said to
me: " Ja, you wanted to kill me, why don't you do it? I say: "You want to kill yourself, put the gun to your
head
and shoot you and see if I care. Do you think I damn care?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"Go ahead boy, blow out your brains. Don't ask me to do it for you".
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JU BEIDA: "You're bloody lazy to live.
Go ahead. Do it yourself. Take your own bloody life".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I say: "I had enough
of you Faisal, I'm tired. You know what? You're a boarder in my house
and I'm sick and tired of having… free boarding and lodging. You know what? From now on you start
paying.
For your washing to be done and to eat in this house".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I ask Allah for mauf (forgiveness) for denying a person food.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: But I got to that stage where I started saying to him: "You've gonna pay for everything in this
house".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. So, were you now more informed about your rights and so on.
JUBEIDA: Now I'm starting to read about my rights and I'm starting to ask people. I'm you know…
Where do I go from here? How do you
go about it. Then I spoke to my same, his uncle, not my uncle.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Not
my family.
104

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: To his same uncle. His
in jamat (religious group), his a tablig (part of a group that spreads the
message
of Islam), he knows more. And I used to phone Thaha. "Thaha, what do I do now?" If this
happened
that happened.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Anything happened, I used to ask Thaha: "How do I go about? How do I do? What do I do
here? " Or he'll phone me: "Juby, what
happened now? How is he?" You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And where it broke me more is, one day he went to mosque and he went and asked for lillah
(ch arity) ( in a soft voice). I mean I'm not a lillah case.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Ja.
JUBEIDA:
We don't short food in this house.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I have to walk from work, from Bree street right
up, from Fordsburg, Plaza, every day up to
the bus stop,
for saving that money: I have to buy bread for my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. I …There was two years, I didn't buy me a thing at work… for lunch time.
Because
why that
money I can use for my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Oh, today I see something, oh let me buy them biscuits or let me buy them sweets. But when I
get home, you know, O God he's gobbling everything
up.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: And my children get one.
INTERVIEWER:
And you sacrificed.
JUBEIDA: And I sacrifice for my children. What the hell?
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Why must I do it? I can't kill myself for this
man. You know. And that is where it just got to
the stage: I felt like killing this man. You know. He'll
buy food. Now, I don't eat cafe food.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: And then he'll gobble everything up in front of his children. The only time my children get is
when he's full. It's like: "Here's the
scraps dogs. Eat!"
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
105

JUBEIDA: Huh?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I mean, I make something
for my children, you come and eat it up with your friends.
INTERVIEWER:
It sounds like it hurt you more when it came to your children…
JUBEIDA:
It hurt. It hurt me very much… (crying).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: When it came to my children.
And I think that is where I became very much…
More determined, because why, they're
growing up ( crying).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: And you ask yourself: "How long are you gonna take this?" To hell
with it, man. Other kids are
surviving.
They will survive.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I think, once I got that
of : "They will survive on this: Hey, go for it girl".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
There is a law out there. You're not in an Islamic country. It's a Western country.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: Go for it. That whole Ramdhaan (holy month in which Muslims are obligated to fast from
sunrise
to sunset), I baked. Where it also happened worse is, I decided, I saved money, I'm gonna paint this
whole
flat out. Then he say: "Ja, why the hell you wanna paint this flat out?" You can use that money for
this that and the other. I say: "Hey,
your parents went for hajj (holy pilgrimage). Who paid their water and
lights? …Who paid their phone accounts for those months they were gone? Three months".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"I paid for it. Because you're brothers said they don't have money. So, this flat, I live in it, it’s
my mother's, its on her name".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "I live in it. And I saved
that money. I'm gonna paint this flat".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "You don't have to lift a cent,
Boy".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "All you have to do is: take me with the bakkie and go buy my paint". We went, we went to go
buy the paint. You know I went as far as getting this man to sell gra…uh dingese, vegetables.
To go to the
market. He was too lazy to do it. He
could have had a big thing going. He was the first guy, in Eldo's,
selling greens here at Shoprite. And
it was a big thing.
106

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: But he was too bloody
lazy to get up on a Sunday to go also.
INTERVIEWER:
Not willing to make an effort for anything.
JUBEIDA: No. He see like five hundred rand here today. "Oh jee, It's a lot of
money!" He's straight
aw ay is spending this. He's not thinking of buying more things to improve this.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Sure.
JUBEIDA:
Use this to buy that.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I went as far as to selling… meat from home. Then he'll come: "Ma, make me meat I'll pay
Jub y tomorrow". With his friends.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: So, you're eating my profit up and
I must pay?
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you were
like just the sensible one, sacrificing…
JUBEIDA:
I was the one always just to see to get us out of the shit.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. I'm the one getting us out of the shit and getting nothing out of it (in a rapid tone of
voice).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, ja.
JUBEIDA:
You know. It's like last night my mom and them laughed, I said: "Gee, I'm two years divorced,
at least
I got a nice panty on, I don't have to stitch them… Or the lastic is done". And they were laughing,
you know (laughs).
Like that, I used to think twice, I'm telling you, I promise you. I used to wear shoes,
which I never did when I was younger, that is cracked soles.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
My feet can't take it. I sacrificed that. And I wore it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: For what? Still for the sake… of my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Still for the sake of… having a house. But then I thought: "What the
hell is it use to having a
husband and you're not having… happiness.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: You're going through misery. Huh? You can't even sleep, nothing.
You know. You're going
through fights and arguments. What's
the use?! It's like having nothing.
107

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JU BEIDA: Huh? And I stay in the shit. I keep on having accounts. That I pay but it's not mine. I'm not
creating
it but it's in my name.
INT ERVIEWER: It's like you woke up from something. What…
JU BEIDA: Ja, it's like, you know, something like just smacked me very hard and say: "Hey, it's your life.
You had it all the time when you were working. When you were single.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Who had this? But you had
money. You don't have a cent today. My banking accounts are
empty, it's dry. It's like I'm just working
from mouth to hand.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Ja.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "That I had when I was a child".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And I promised myself, I said: "One day when I work, when I'm a adult, I'm not gonna work
fro m hand to mouth, like my mother did.". Because why my mother earned… peanuts. Okay, we were
happy. But I don't want that life for
my children (in a rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER:
You want better.
JUBEIDA:
Ja. I want better for my children. "Is this what you wanna do?". I moved out of this room, I
moved
into the small room. The kids I moved into, with him, into this bed.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I tell you, Yaseen used to shit. I used to leave this bedding for months, not cleaning it. Because
why
"Hey, I don't sleep in it. What the hell must I worry?"
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: This room was a sight because I moved in there. He used to come and beg: "Come back into
the room". I say : "I don't want, you. You said mos, you don't want me also (in a calm tone)".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: We got to that: "Listen!
Now it's finish". Ninety -nine, end of '98 going into '99, that's when
we really
decided it's finish. Here we're gonna draw the line. I had enough of you. I will work, we will
carry
on…Okay, I had shit at work as well. Then one day he said to me: "Ag, Doll why don't you leave the
job,
you can work from home. You'll make more money than what you do at work".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I said: "I'll think about it". He became the concerned kind of a husband.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Because why now, there's mos now shit at work.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
108

JUBEIDA: But sill, deep down it's like, there's still shit. You know that's now when I started seeing him
for the person… He prey on other people's grievances.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: You know. So, he was like:
"Oh, if she sits at home, I'll leave her. Shirr! She's gonna be
nothing".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: You know, "I Take a job away from her, she's gonna have nothing". But he don't know I can
still
do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because
why, that was the year I started making samoosas, I'm making chevro. And I used to
sell from home. Slowly…but surely.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And I started selling salt. Even if it takes a bag of salt to takes six months to sell, to me…is
seven rands
comes in after two three months (in a rapid tone), I take…I became to that of: "Ya Allah, now's
the time I need it". And I got to the conclusion that whenever I need money, I can sell, make samoosas
this
month
and people will say I'll pay you next month. I say: "Fine, take it". You know I got to that: "I trust
you".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And this month I'll come out with it. And next month I'll be struggle and then all that money…
will
come in.
And it will cover all that holes.
INTERVIEWER: All the holes, ja.
JUBEIDA: So, I said I got to the conclusion that: "Ya Allah, You are Gafiroon (the most forgiving one
and
the one who relieves us from suffering), You know.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
"So, today I make it. If I make a buck, fine. If I don't make a buck, You will send that buck,
when
I really need it".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And it became like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And I think that is where it killed him more. That: "This woman don't care". She's selling, she
making somoosas, she's sewing, she's doing this…. I became to go into doing things when I get home.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: I come home, I used to sit and sew…for
people. Or I come home and I'll go, decide now, now:
109

Huh-uh I'm going to make…ten dozen of samoosas. I'll go into the kitchen, coming home six o'clock, eat,
finish.
By ten o'clock that ten dozen is finish. Making mince and everything. Rolling out sammosas
everything.
Just to get away from him.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: Even if I had to sit till leven, twelve o'clock in my kitchen. I used to do that.
INTERVIEWER:
Avoiding him.
JU BEIDA: Avoiding him. Because why now it's, because why the arguments, the fights, it's working on
the children.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: It's working on my mom. So what do you do? You put your head into other things.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Doing. I used to sit and sew till late. Doing all that. When I come in: "Oh, he's sleeping". I
use d to regret it if he don't sleep.
Huh! It's like I could cry and I say: "Ya (oh), Allah I sit and I sew till
twelve o'clock he's still awake (both
Jubeida and interviewer laughs). "Ya (oh) Allah, what did I do today
that was
so bad?", you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
You know, you became like
that you know, "Do I have to go sleep". Then I, you know, I'll
sew quickly. I got to also sleeping with light, due to that man. I can sleep with light on.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. Things like that. He made me learn because I never could do it. And uh …then I'll
come
in and I'll turn so quick and say me kalimas (religious testimonies) so quick, the minute he say:
"Po ppie".
It's like I'm gggg- death (Jubeida and interviewer laughs). You know, although he'll ruff me and
everything and I'll try not to laugh and
I'm like gggg - I' dead asleep you know. But the minute I feel, I can
feel "Oh, there he's conking, he's out,
then I'm like awake, you know (laughs). But that is how I started
training myself. I trained myself. To go like that you know. And Okay, finely in Ramdhaan (Islamic holy
month
during which Muslims are obligated to fast), when he started going on, he comes, at night and he'll
nag about "When are you going to Jamiat (religeous council of learned men), you mos want this divorce.
You
know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Sort of taunting you.
JUBEIDA:
Ja. Now it's like. You know. And you're fasting. And you know Shaitan (Satan) is even worse.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: Then I moved into the other room. I even used to sleep on the floor. We had a mattress, I used
to sleep on the floor. Just to get out of his way. I used to paint
till late in the night everything. I used to go
in that room. And he'll come in there and he'll call me names. And I thought to myself: "Carry on". And he
was
the type of person, you couldn't keep quiet. He'll go on until you answer him. But I thought to myself:
"I'm not
going to do it". I started… That's the time I started making my tahhajud (voluntary prayer that
may be said between midnight and the compulsory
early morning prayer). They say thahhajud….uh
dingese salatul istigara ( prayer that one
says when faced with an important decision) is seven nights, I
ma de
it for I don't know how many months I made.
110

INTERVIEWER: Nè?
JUBEIDA: Just: "Ya Allah, what do
I do. You know".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I made my tahhajud (voluntary
prayer that may be said between midnight and the compulsory
earl y morning prayer) in that Ramdhaan. And everything. And the one day I don't know, he came in here,
he asked for a pants. I said: "Who the hell do you think? I'm you're made?" The Sahabas (the companions
of the
prophet Muhammad , peace be upon him), did their washing, nè. The Sahabas helped their wives, nè.
Their
wives weren't slaves. I'm not your slave. Do it yourself. That day I made him wash his own…pants
and koerta. And he threw me with money. That's also I realized: "You're money is not worth it".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I… After that, I never started using his money. What I used to do, if he wants money I used to
put it in a envelope. Then everything
he do, or take, I used to take it out of his money.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
This is your money. This is mine.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: I don't have money. You're money is finish, Boy.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I don't have money.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA:
You know. But now I'm still so generous. Because now he's travelling kids. How do you get
parents that
pay transport money. Their kids
need to be transported. I take it : you take money from
som ebody, you must give them the service.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
You know. Because why I want something, I want to pay for it. I want something good.
Because
why samoosas everything, I eat it, then it's good for you. I can't eat it, then it's not good enough for
the next person.
INTERVIEWER: Sure. Sure.
JUBEIDA: So, I got to that also, where
I used to give him my credit card, if there's no petrol in the bakkie
to get
the children to school. Because why the parents pay. I'll give him: "Go put the petrol".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why that children paid for that.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
You know. You had to. He took my eldest son, even out of normal school to Islamic school.
Which
he was supposed to pay. He never paid the school.
111

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I paid half of the school fees. He still owe the school eighteen thousand. You know what he
said?
"Ag, it's but Indians, why the hell must I pay it".
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA: Your child went for education.
INTERVIEWER:
It's only fair.
JU BEIDA: Its fair. You pay. Those people need salaries.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
It needs to be paid.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I paid it. My son went to Daral-ulum
(theological school, literally meaning house of
knowledge). He even made trouble for the child at Daral-ulum. There's my son, you see what he looks
today?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Will you say that is a child that's hafiz (one who memorized the Qur'an) twenty juzz ( sections
of the Quire' an of which there are thirty)?
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
Huh? Look at him. I took him out, okay. Then mm… It went so far, it was after Ramdhaan.
And
I kept on saying: "I'm going to Jamiat (Council of
religious scholars) , I'm going to Jamiat". And
uh…like it's Ramdhaan (Islamic holy month) time, you
can't do it. But the uh… I got to a straw where I
couldn't take it. I went to go see his
parents. His mother say: "Ja, but it's Ramdhaan and everything.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I say: "Ja, but your son don't think it. I had enough of him. I'm gonna leave your son". My
uncle-in-law
said: "Well Juby, what decision did you get to". I say: "You didn't push me, Taha. Shukar
(thank
you)! You tried everything".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: You were there for me but I can't take it with your nephew anymore. They say it's a sin to
divorce..
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: They say it's a sin to talaq (divorce).
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
But I can't take it anymore.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
112

JUBEIDA: I'm going for it. Because why now I know a little bit more. Because why if count of
everything
that he said over the years, there is no marriage. You know. It's fourteen years, how much
longer?
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: Do yous want me to kill him? I can do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: That Eid…(religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting) now normally Eid
day we go to his parents. Right oh,
and one thing I still… My father-in-law, over the years, since I got in to
the family
is: My mother-in-law, for the first two years of our marriage, she used to pick out his clothing
and ironed. And you know, she used to do our sewing and everything. And that year since...the last five
years
of my life I did my own sewing. Because why she always maintained that: "Oh , nobody can sew like
Tasha.
Now Tasha did sewing when she was at college. But mommy finished up the dress but Tasha can
read
a pattern. And I'm a person: Don't tell me I can't do a thing.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
I'll show you. I can do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I went out, I bought me patterns. As you can see, there's all my patterns.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: And I made my first dress. Polka dots and stripes. I didn't make it just polka dots. It was a flair
dress. Stripes in my sleeves. And pieces of stripes in with polka dots. I made it, I didn't ask her a thing. I cut
it m yself,
as skew as I could, over locked it and everything. And I just put it on one Friday. And then she
ask ed: "Is that a new dress?". I said:
"Yes I made it myself". My father-in-law said: "See, that's a new style
now with stripes and stars" (in a laughing
tone). And she scrutinized it. Okay, there was a few things. You
know like the over locking and the front, the holes, you know. Like, hamming it and things. That was a few
things.
But the rest she didn't find. Okay, and then, button holes. You know when you start of, you still
hesitate
to do things.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA:
But don't tell me I can't do a thing. I will show you. I'm gonna try and I'm gonna do it. And
that's
how she got me determined to do my own sewing. Did my sewing and everything. But now I
make…And
then she showed me how to make the koertas (long ,loose fitting cloacks). And I made my
own patterns. She normally makes
a pattern and then I'll draw it from her. And I'll make a pattern. And I
ma de my sons' own koertas. I made his koertas. Everything. And she always used to scrutinize it on Eid
day (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting).
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
I leave her, you know. Then she rectify. Well, I'm not a person: Oh don't look!
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Rectify me where I'm wrong. Then I can know next time I can improve on it. And that's how I
learn. And '98, '99 Eid…day (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting). I stood. I went
down. They could see I was not happy.
I was very unhappy that day. But I still put on a face, you know.
113

Talk to everybody: How are you, everything. And I normally take out my father-in-law's clothing for Eid
day.
I choose for him. Not my mother-in-law, not his daughters.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: He used to tell me: "You
go see what I must wear". Because why we used to go to Bosmont to
my granny-in-law
and them, my mother-in-law's mother and father. So, they live in Bosmont. So, it's like I
took
it out. And that same day: "How are you my baby". "No, Alhamdulillah ( praise be to God), Da. You
Okay?
Fine". But deep inside of me I thought to myself: "Today is the last day you see me here".
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA: After this yous wouldn't
see me again.
INTERVIEWER: Wow.
JUBEIDA: This is the last Eid I'm gonna iron your clothing. That
I said to myself. Not my sister-in-laws,
nobody knew what I was doing. Nobody,
not even my mother-in-law. And uh I said: "Da, what you gonna
we ar?".
He said "Ag, you know, go check in my cupboard". My mother-law took out her…" Ma. You
gonna
iron?" Her she took out her clothing for ironing, took out my children's clothing for re-ironing to put
on the
bed. Went into his cupboard. As I stood in front of that cupboard, I though : "What shall I let him
wear
for the last Eid? I don't know who's gonna do it next Eid for you. Bakahri Eid (day commemorating
the day when prophet Abraham-peace be upon him-sacrificed a goat instead of his son), somebody is gonna
do it
for you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. But you knew it's the last.
JUBEIDA:
That is what I said to myself: "This is the last. I'm not back again here". I took out his clothing.
Went to go iron it. U p to the socks everythin g, I put it on his bed. My mother-in-law's clothing, ironed it
out, put
it on her bed. She went to go shower. I got my kids done. He still laughed: "How are you, okay?"
"Ja". You know everything. And as I'm ironing there I said to myself:
"Ya (oh) Allah, hope they find
somebody to iron their clothing for them. Ironing. You know my
sister-in-laws are in the room also but I'
thinking
it to myself (in a laughing tone).
INTERVIEWER:
You're thinking it to yourself.
JUBEIDA:
Now I knew, because why that became my job for Eid day. It's only me, my families clothing,
my mother and my father-in-law's clothing. Well whoever comes in and they say: "You busy ironing, iron
for me". I'll iron for you. But that day I ironed out, I said: " This is the last. I'm not gonna be here ever
again, to be back to iron this. Next Eid, you'll find somebody
else. And uh with me it's "Ag, maybe you're
just saying it", you know. And I was shocked at myself, thinking
this. I went to Bosmont. I was very quiet.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
They ask: "What's wrong". " No, nothing". Got home he said: "Oh everybody said you're shell.
I said:
" So what? I was talking with everybody, I was mixing with everybody". But I withdrawed myself
form
them.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: You know. Because why
normally I go lay the tables, I help with this.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
Help with the dishes, putting food on the table. That Eid it's like: "why you so quite, what's
wrong". "No I'm just
tired, you know my mommy's not so well". Put everything on to it.
114

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JU BEIDA: Painting a big thing.
In the meantime: "How can I tell yous what am I thinking?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: It's not the time. It's not
the time to tell yous that, you know. Because why it's not everybody's
thing. I left
it. Thought to myself: "Ja, last Eid I'm here", then afterwards: "No man, my feet are hurting,
you know mos this sandals and it's choking me (laughs)". And I act like I can't walk and I can walk and you
miserable
and everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: My mother-in-law is: "Are you going with me to Galifa?" I said: "No, Ma" She was like
sho cked. Because why wherever she and my father-in-law go , I'm the only one: "Hey, lets go with. I'll
even
walk
with yous".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. My husband
don't wanna to take us, we used to walk. I said: "No". "Why?" "No, I
got the
wrong shoes on, it's hurting". Meantime: "To hell, go yourself. Why the hell must I go, I don't want
to b e with yous today .It's the last,
go". She was like shocked. Because why I've never, for all these years,
said
no. If they said go, I used to say yes lets go. I always used to be game for everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: But today is "What happened?" But it's like that's how I felt…that's the time I cut myself off
from
them. After Eid (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting), that was then
February,
I, no not February, before February. January, ja. After Eid I went to walk. Then I started calling
Jamiat (Council of religious scholars).
It took a effort. And I phoned Jamiat and I asked them: "How do I
go about
to get a talaq (divorce)". Maulana (religious minister) asked me: "How do you mean you want a
talaq?"
Then I explained to him: "Maulana, this is what I'm going through, over the years. What do I do
from
now?" I know I told him everything he's calling me, how he's treating me and things. I say: "I don't
think
there is a marriage anymore". Then he put me through to one of the Maulanas, he's dealing with the
marriages.
He said: "You know what? You have to fill in a form. Then write everything, form the
beginning
to end…for us". That's how come I got that (referring to a letter she showed me earlier).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
That's when I decided: "I'm going to do it ( in a very firm tone)". I send our driver, got the
address,
"Go fetch me the form". I had that form for a week in my bag. I walked for a week with it. "Ya
(oh),
Allah, must I fill it in".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
" What do I do?"
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. "Where is it gonna
end? But I don't wanna get mad. I'm not gonna end up in a mad
house. And I'm not gonna kill this man.
Because why I kill him, I go to jail" (in a very rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
115

JUBEIDA: I still don't see my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Right. Right.
JUBEIDA: And I'm gonna carry his sin. Killing
him. It's not gonna be worth it. Cause I got to that: killing
is the
only solution out of this marriage. Because why he's going…he's that type that tempers you, he's
going
on with you, you know. He's gonna provoke you.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: Till you do something very bad. I said: "And the only way I can get rid of him, is to kill him".
And I got to that: The whole of Ramdhaan
(holiest month in the Islamic religion during which Muslims are
obligated
to fast) I was thinking of how do I kill this man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I think: "It's fasting time. How do you kill a person?" And
that's when it came to me:
"Don't
kill him".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "Get out of it.
Allah will show you a way". And I asked Allah…Like I said, that whole
Ramdhaan I made salatul istigara (prayer that is said when one needs guidance in making an important
decision), I made tahajjud (voluntary
prayer that may be said between midnight and the compulsory early
morning prayer), I made everything…
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
That I could think of.
INTERVIEWER:
All avenues.
JUBEIDA: Read any dua (prayer)
that I could think of. And I used to speak to myself. Like: "Ya (oh)
Allah, show me. Where do I go. What did I do
wrong. But how do I go about it. Because why I don't know
anymore".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I can't kill this person.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I don't want to lose my children. That was my main concern is: My mother never threw us
aw ay. I kill him, it's like throwing my children back to this family.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Huh?
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I don't want that. And… that's when I made up my mind now after a week:
"Hey! Fill in that
form
and just write". And now you can't write because why now he's around.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
116

JUBEIDA: So, "Oh gee, lekker": "Oh I'm going with PAGAD, I have to go here and there". "No, fine.
Go".
" Oh I have to take this one there"." No, go". That's when I got: "You go, I can write". And that's
when
I started writing the letter. And I wrote it from beginning to the end. Like you'll see, it's like bits and
pieces,
it's just refined to the main things, where it went wrong.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: I went twice to 15 Market
Street. I got twice a form there, to fill in for a interdict. The next best
thing when I have to go in, then I get up and I go to work.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "No it's not…", you know.
And the day I took the forms in… The Friday, the Thursday night, I
finished the letters. Because I normally
draw it up and then I re-write. The Thursday night I re-wrote it, still
not knowing
he got somebody outside. Because why he's also now…No he's staying out late because why
there's
now nothing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: We didn't sleep with
each other for now, for all this months, you know. Since October…I think
it's since
September of '98 into '99, you know. So, there's now nothing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Now we just living for the sake of the children. We look at each other, we want
to kill each
other, you know. It's like, hatred now, so what's the use? Now there's nothing. I couldn't care
a damn now.
You know. Now you do what you want
to, come when you want to, couldn't be bothered. You come, you
come shower that time of the night,
I can't be bothered where you've been. I don't question you anymore.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
Although you still accusing me. I tell him: "If I stand behind the door, you're also standing
behind
the door, Boy. So, it's your life. It takes two to tango".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "But just remember: my kedingese, don't sit in front of my front head". "Oh! You're still eating
with
that mouth?" I say: "Yes. But yous, it's just a little thing, it tickles me". And it used to go on. And it…I
really
used to put it on hey (laughing). Then one night he asked me: "Really? ", just before I send the letter
to J amiat
(council of religious scholars), "Really, tell me how do you feel about me?" I said: "Really? I
don't want you anymore Faisal. I had enough of you. You see I don't even care what you're doing. If you
don't even come home, I'm not even
gonna be bothered.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"So, do as you please, Faisal". Get out of my life! Give me my freedom back, because why
mad,
I don't want to become. You see, my sister had a nervous break-down. She can't take life.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Me, I'm not gonna have a nervous break-down. And I'm not gonna end up in a mental home".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
"Not for you. You're not worth it. I'm sorry".
117

INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JUBEIDA: "And how was I in bed?"
I say: "Oh jee! You tickled me all these years".
INTERVIEWER:
You really played on that.
JU BEIDA: I did. Up to the end. It's really now, you know,
I just… let out everything. And then he can get
so cross and
that.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I just told him what
I felt. And the on the seventh, I think it was the seventh or the first, I wrote
the letter to Jamiat. My driver took
it the Friday, but not thinking, Friday Jamiat close at one, their not
opening
up.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Uh (taking
a deep breath), but anyway the driver had the letter with him and it started raining.
And it's pouring, and the gilab (thunder)
is going. And I went for lunch. And I was standing at Pick and
Pay centre. Now I wanna cross. But
I'm telling you, That gilab…. hit so hard, nè?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
That it felt like something inside of me was just… thorn out, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "Ya (oh) Allah, did I do something wrong? If my letter gone in, is it so bad that you
take,
uh, uh talaq (divorce) so bad…" (tone rapid and intense)
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"… this had to happen? Allah, if it's wrong, I ask mauf, (forgiveness) but I can't take it".
INTERVIEWER:
You can't. You can't.
JU BEIDA: (Silence). I stood there and it stopped raining. I went over (tearful tone). I say: "Isaac, where's
the letter?"
He say: "I got it in the bike" I say: " Okay. No. It's not my talaq (divorce) (crying)", you know.
"Then
it's meant to be". (Short silence). My maid took it in (trying to compose herself). Then the
Wednesday
Mawlana phoned me: "Can you come in? Is it possible to get an appointment with you?" I said:
"Mawlana, I'll see". He said: "Okay, we'll make it for
the 27th of January". The twenty seventh… I told
him : "Listen, you mos wanted me to go to Jamiat, nè?
I did go. In any case. They would like to see us
bot h" . Nine o'clock he has to be there. "Oh, I've got children to transport". I say: "I don't care".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"Whatever time you can, see that you at Mawlana, at Jamiat, nè. You mos said I must take it
my way. You know how he even had me at a mawlana, here in Eldo's, we went there. I told that mawlana
straight:
"I don't think I want a life with him". "Why Juby?" I gave him my reasons. Nobody could see it.
You
know how many times he phoned our imam, local imam that got us married. He said:" I'm coming to
face
both of you as husband and wife". He went to approach the man at the mosque.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And he heard the man's version of it and uh I was the liar. Then I phoned my uncle, and I said:
"Where
do I go?" He said: "No, you have to go to the Islamic uh council, marriage counselor.
118

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then he gave me the imams
that's sitting on the council. I said: "But I spoke to them and they
never
did anything. This imam is sitting on the council, he didn't even tell me to go to the marriage
counseling."
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I say: "Marriage counseling
is not gonna help. Taha, you know how many years I'm sitting.
I'm looking
for a out now.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "What grounds do I have?" And that's why I never went to the Islamic council, marriage
council.
I went straight to Jamiat.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
I said: "You said I must choose. I choose Jamiat, I didn't choose the Islamic Council. So, you
see that
you're there". When we got
there, Mawlana got up. Okay, he said to him like: "This is her
grie vances". He read out the letter.
He asked me again. I explained to him that we've seen his uncle and
everything. Nobody in the family told me to do it. That's how I feel. I can't live with him anymore.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
Before I do something wrong, I'd rather get out of it. What is my legal, Islamic rights.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JU BEIDA: And you know. Then he asked Mawlana can he have a copy. And Mawlana said: "You can't
ask me. You have to ask her". I was so determined. He asked me: "Can I have a copy". I said "Yes. You
want
to know? You want a copy? Have it". Then he turned around and he told Mawlana: "Everything in
that letter everything she say, is a lie".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
He made me a liar. And I've take a qasam (oath). If I had a gun. Or anything sharp was on that
mawlana's
table, I would have stabbed that man, right there, dead.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: That's how I hated him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I cried. At that moment in point, I burst out crying. I cried in that office.
But if I had anything
that I could have killed that man, I would have done it. Allah made it, there was not even a pencil on that
man's
desk (laughs). Not even a pen.
INTERVIEWER:
Nothing in sight (laughing).
JU BEIDA: Nothing sharp, just to inflict any injury, you know, that I was so frustrated that I just wanted to
get it
out of… my sight. I just wanted
to get him out. And then what killed me more is when we came dawn
stairs,
he still went, he went dawn with the escalator, I went dawn with the stairs, you know. And when we
got dawn he said: "You know what? I will give you a talaq (divorce) but I first wanna go show my mother
119

and them this letter, I'll get mine this afternoon by the mawlana. I said: "Fine, do as you please". I went to
work.
And I gave him a copy. I walked off. He still wanted to take me to work. I said: "No". He still had
the
audacity…You
know he's like irritating me to ask: "Are you okay? You gonna be fine?" You know it's a
soft
way.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: I say: "What the hell
do you think? I'll get to work".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I went to work. Because
why now at work they know.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA: But I was so cross…and so angry…I was so hurt that when I told them at work what happened,
I burst
out crying (crying).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And because why their Christian, but they said: "Juby don't worry, it will come right" (crying).
And that's the day I decided: "No, I'm going to put him of the street, because why he used to come…". You
kno w this same Faisal, you know how jealous he was on him? I was jolling even with Faisal. Faisal is like
my eldest
son.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja .
JUBEIDA:
Faisal will come in say: "Salam ( Muslim greeting, literally meaning peace) Auntie Juby, how
are you ", hug me, kiss me.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes.
JUBEIDA:
I'll cut his hair. He even didn't want me to cut this child's hair.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
UBEIDA: Huh?. Then he used to come
here on Sundays when my son used to come from Daral-ulum
(the ological
learning institute). And he used to threaten me: "I'll kill you". You know?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And things like that.
And when I went to 15 Market Street I wrote all that down. Then they
said: "Did
he mean it physically or… is it just a saying?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I said: "It's physically".
I said: "That man is in state of anything".
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA:
"He will do it".
INTERVIEWER:
He's capable.
JUBEIDA: You know. He will do anything…and still when you see, when you look at him, it looks
like
120

he could never say it, he could never do it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I said: "What do I do?
Where do I run from here?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "If you people can't help
me with the interdict, what do I do?" Okay finally, it took me about…
three days before I got a interdict.
I got the interdict. I took one to his mother and them. Send one. He still
insist
he never got it up till today. Okay fine, I left it, then… that same, okay. He went on. He used to
torment
me. He used to phone me at work and carry on. You know, and I used to swear him. Then they
said afterwards at work: "Juby, why do you swear? Just put the phone down on the guy (in an animated
tone)".
I say: "It's not the type of person you put a phone down".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
It's now is the time to get back at him.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And you
wanted to let it out?
INTERVIEWER: I say: "I want to let it get out now. Now he must
know how I feel".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Now I'm gonna torment him. Because why this is now… because why on the eighth of
February…Because why, ja…the twenty-seventh of uh… January we were by Jamiat. Then on the twenty-
eig ht of…the, the sec…the eighth of February was the last I was by his mother and them. Then he wanted
his rings and he wanted his dawry (bridal gift that the husband gives to his wife when they get married or
later on in the marriage) back.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "Fine, you can have your rings". Because I never used to wear my wedding rings. You
know.
I mean it's something you wear…It's special to you.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: When yous going out,
that's when you wear it. I had ordinary rings, because why he found me
with
rings. I used to wear my ordinary rings but I had a band that I always used to wear. Because I used to
work
in Hillbrow and you don't wear your genuine jewelry there.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: They take a band that you buy, it don't hurts you.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. And…that's why. So when he asked his wedding rings I said: "Do you know what?
You want your rings back. Why don't you…I have to give I back to you in front of a mahram (members of
her clan whom she is not allowed to marry but who can protect her interest, for example her brother)". And
that Sunday
I couldn’t find my uncles, my nephews, nobody. Everybody's gone out all of a sudden. And I
wanted to get it off. He said: "Okay, lets go to my mother. My mother can phone
Taha and Uncle and they
can come
and they can be your witnesses, then you have your…wakils (representatives)
there. I said: "Fine,
because I need wakils to give you
your dowry and your rings back. Because why you… are capable of
making
me a liar.
121

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBE IDA: I said: " I'm tired of you Faisal". When we got there…he gave the letter to his father and them.
So, that mean all the time he was keeping this letter. He told me, maar, they know about the letter.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay. So, he was saving it.
JUBEIDA: So as we walked in this Sunday, it was a Sunday.
He gave…He said: "Da, read! But Da, I want
you to phone
Taha and Uncle". Then his father turned around
and he said: "You know what? I'm sick and
tired
of yous shit! Why don't you people sort your own problems out? Why must I always phone the
family?"
Okay fine, I kept quiet. I wasn't dressed. I had my oldest, dirtiest dress on for that Sunday. I
looked
really like the maid. I couldn't be bothered. "To hell with yous", you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: This is how I looked. And I went just like that to his parents (laughing). They were also like,
shocked: "Ha! She never looks l ike that".
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JU BEIDA: But this day I looked, like really, I could tell you shit. I walked in and I sat where I was sitting.
The n and I told them: "Listen, I had enough of your son. I don't want him anymore. I'm telling you straight
now take your son back, I don't want
him. "Oh, but your not thinking of the children. You know what, your
very selfish,
you just thinking of yourself".
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
"What about the children?" I said: "Oh? What about the children? I said: "They'll grow up. I
said: "But me. I'm not gonna get mad with your son. I had
enough of your son. I say: "And before I kill
him or land up in a mad house, I'll rather leave him. My
kids will grow up".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"I'm not selfish. They gonna have their own lives. I have my life now. And I feel I must have
my life… now. Before I'm mad. Because why when I get mad, I wouldn't have a life.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: "And if I'm gonna stay
longer with your son, it's gonna be worse. And I can't take it". Oh and
then
they lashed out how they feel. And then they read the letter, it's when he gave them the letter: "Read!"
They
read the letter. Silence for about twenty to half-and-hour, reading through the letter. His father got up
and said: "Oh, that mean this was hatred all the time. There's no love. And, Jubeida, how could you, in all
these years,
remember all this things in here.
INTERVIEWER:
How?
JUBEIDA:
Mm? "How do you get it right". Because why that mean it hurt them because why everything
in there
is the truth.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: When he asked me…That's I realized that: He's asking me how can I remember everything.
But if something hurts you, again every
year its gonna come (tearful).
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes. Of course.
122

JUBEIDA: You're gonna remember: this month was like this for me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: Every month is like, you know
you remember it over the years.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA: The months become, certain
things resemble certain things for you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: February was my happiest years because why that's the years my children was born in.
January, December is the years I regretted
in my life.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Because why there's misery, it's money, it's everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
Mm? So, that's how you remember things.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
So, I left it. To hell with them.
INTERVIEWER: But you were now the bad party?
JUBEIDA: Hey, now I become
the bad one. And they lash out at me. Now, there's nobody… to answer for
me back. Because why I'm the type when I'm very angry
I go very dep…not depressed but I go into myself.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I wouldn't answer you back.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JU BEIDA: I will tell you : "Carry on."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Only thing I do is, I'll just start tearing up my shoes or anything that's uh loose.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I'll start tearing it. Because why with my
marriage, I tore a new pair of tekkies up. Because
wh y his mother worked on my nerves, my mother worked on my nerves. Because they wanted the
wedding,
they don't want it my way. And I was frustrated that Sunday.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
And by the time they all left, the whole soles of the tekkies that I had on was pulled off.
Because
why I can't…I'm not a person that will rudely interrupt you, you know. I will turn my anger
123

on…myself.
INTER VIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I'll take it out on myself.
So, that Sunday I didn't take it on nothing, not myself, nothing. I just
looked
it. And I sat there: fine, you finish? Then he turned around and he said: "You know what? Faisal. If
I had
a wife like this, I would have left her long time. I don't know why the hell you're sitting still with her.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JU BEIDA: That's when I said: "Oh,
so this is what you people think of me". You know it's like: Hey? His
mother got up. And she still blabbed
around there, this that and the other. I didn't even listen to her. Then
she went to the kitchen. Then she asked me: "Juby, tell me, do you still feel like a child in this house?" I
said:
"You what? No! I feel like a maid". She said: "Oh, well I always treated you like a daughter in this
house",
and she's that now keeping herself nice and whatever. You know now the sour grapes came out.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And they had all their says and I got up I said "Okay, jazā kum Állāh (thank you, literally
meaning may God reward you) but I'm going home. "Faisal, just take me to my house please". And I
walked out. And that was the last I've
been there. On the fourteenth of February then my father-in-law, my
mother-in-law, chaste her brother away. The one that was helping us with this marriage and everything.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. The whole time.
JUBEIDA:
He became the bad person.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: Now it's like,… he…assist me and it's through him that I'm leaving their son, you know. And
thin gs…and uh…and actually on the eight we were there, the ninth…Then we came home and that night he
made me take mubalagh (take an oath) on the Qur'an.
In front of my children, he called my children in:
"Your mother is taking mubalagh on
this Qur'an that she is having an affair.
INTERVIEWER:
Gosh.
JUBEIDA:
And I said: "Allah knows best. If anything bad happen to me, Allah knows that I had an affair.
But
if nothing happens to me, Allah knows, He will uplift me".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: "But remember Faisal, my
love that I had for you, is gonna kill you".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Really, it's gonna kill you. Just remember that. And remember Allah
is slow…but sure".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Allah knows who is the wrong in this. I am taking mubālagh on this. But whatever you say,
if i t's true, Allah is my witness. And I did it. He…he really broke me down in front of my kids. Okay, I
took it. Then on the ninth he said: " Oh, I'm moving out". I said: "Fine. But you know what? Those suitcases
I w orked
for it. You move out of here, your mother's got JMT (garbage bags) bags, nè, you go take JMT
bag,
boy. Or, you go take… a bag from your mother. You know that old suitcase you came with,
remember
when we got married? You bring that and you put your things in there. But you're not taking
one
124

suitcase of mine that I worked for. You take nothing that I worked for here. You can take what you came
with.
But not of my things". On the ninth, he came that night…He went to fetch the old suitcase from his
mother
(laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Nogal
(laughs).
JUBEIDA: Very old one. He went.. When I came
from work his things were packed. He said: "Jubeida,
…u h,
jazā kum Állāh for everything, and… but I'm going". I said: "Thanks for going. Did you pack? Do
you want beds? Do you want a blanket? (In a sarcastic tone). Boy, here's your blankets. You can take this
one.
The blue one your not getting, your granny bought it. This one your mother bought, you can take it.
You
want bed sheets? This is what your mother bought you, nè. You can have a set. Take it. And you
wanted
your rings, nè. Here's your rings, my baby. Come. I don't want it. It's gonna serve no purpose for
me" .
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
He took it because why he wanted it. That was always our fight. When we had a fight, he
wanted
his rings.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA: And I said to
him: "Here's it, you can have it". An uh, he took his rings, he went for esha
(evening prayer)
and everything most probably, whatever he did at the mosque, whatever. And uh then he
came. He took his things then he left.
He greeted my mom: "Salam". He left. Now it's, he never had respect
for my mother, he speaks to my mother
as "Ma". I said: "You know what? She's not your mother anymore.
She's
nothing of you. And uh then the rumor went around it's through my mother. It's through my mother
that
I left him. And it's through two slices of bread and a cup of coffee (laughs). He left me. Because he, I
fought
over a cup of coffee and two slices of bread he gave his friend to eat here. That's why he's talaqing
(divorcing)
me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. And then, like I said, after everything, after he moved out of the house, now I get
all this
stories that, oh, he's seeing this ustaad (teacher) here by the madressa (Islamic school). Because
why he's always there early.
He's buying her breakfast and everything, he's taking her home, he's bringing
her, you know, go fetch her from school. I said: "So, what? Good for him, he found somebody". Why the
hell. I'm telling you the stories that
came to me afterwards of what Faisal is doing and things, nè, that it
couldn't, it didn't even bug me. Afterwards I told my mom: "You know what? I wanna hear nothing of him.
Let him do what he want to. You know. But then he started bugging me at work. Phoning me: "Oh, Jubeida
I still
love you. You know what? We separated now for so many weeks but if you get your haidh
(menstrual
flow) and uh the thing is, if I get you a house, don't you want to come back? We'll give it
another
four months". I said: "What? Four months? I had enough of you, didn't you hear. I don't want you.
Go."
INTERVIEWER:
So he didn't believe it's like over.
JUBEIDA:
Hu-uh. "It's over Faisal. I …want my talaq (divorce). Give my talaq".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
"Like you said, you're separated now. But I want my talaq. I'm putting in for a divorce Faisal".
He didn't
believe me. I said: "And you know what? I got a interdict against you. You're not allowed in front
of my door. You come here, I'll put the cops after you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
125

JUBEIDA: "Watch me". He used to pester me. And I kept on warning him. One Saturday it rained, I was
soaking
wet coming from work. He was right in front of the door. I said: "Faisal, please, I don't want to do
this
but I'll get the cops to pick you up. Don't come in front of my door. There's a interdict out against you.
And
a warrant of arrest will follow soon".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Stop bugging me. Just
write out my talaq and that's it! You already gave me so many. Give
the last
and lets go"(in an intense tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm
JU BEIDA: "No, I still love you". This one day I was so de moer in I phoned his mother. I said: "Listen
here Rukaya, just tell your son, nè: From
Monday to Thursday he wants me back and on Friday, Thursday
to Friday, he's getting married, nè. So please, just get him out of my way. I don't want him anymore". My
poor
mother was the worst creature ever…in this. Like my mother is the centre…
INTERVIEWER:
So, everybody is to blame, except him.
JUBEIDA: It's everybody, it's me, it's I'm to be blamed. My mother is to be blamed. Everybody in the
house. But not them. Him and his family, they're the clean ones. They did everything
that was good.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
He's never to be blamed. My mother put him…I said: "Why did my mother put him out?
Because
why he don't respect her house".
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
He has no respect for nobody. You know, he sweared his mother of a what's a name, a "H". In
this house.
INTERVIEWER: Wow, his own mother?
JUBEIDA:
His own mother. His own mother one day. I was shocked. I think that. I think that's also where
everything
just…build up, you know. He had no respect for his parents.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: His father, many a times, threw him out of the house…when we were married, not to come
there.
You know. So, it's like, I said: "No, your son is good, but just tell your son, he want's to get
married…"
"Oh, no Faisal just sits in the house. You know he loves you so much he's not even going out".
In the meantime I'm hearing all the stories where he's visiting all the ladies (in an animated
tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
Huh? All the single ladies that his visiting and he's going here and whose he getting married to
and everything. Huh? Until the day that this woman that he's married to now, my mother used to go to
madressa
( Islamic school) here. You know on Wednesday for ladies.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: And uh, you know as one
woman to another, "Hey I'm getting married". That's when she
star ted
now, making the rumor: "I'm gonna get married to Faisal Duss". So she told this appa (female
religious
teacher), I don't know if you know her, appa Shamila, Shaffi, of uh Newclare.
126

INTERVIEWER: No.
JUBEIDA: She married to the Jaffi
brothers, one of the Jaffies. And now she's well learned, she went to
India
to learn. And Shamila knows deen (religion), especially from a woman's side she knows everything.
So all Shamila said to her, when she said to Shamila: "Oh, I'm getting married to Faisal Duss", then
Shamila
said to her: "If I'm you I'll make salah-tul istigara (prayer that is said when one is faced with
making
an important decision)". You know before you know anything. Because why I mean you're
suppose
to know this man was a married man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: But she's bragging now.
So she went to turn around and say: "Ja, I don't know what the appa
said" . And it, I'm telling you, it caused
a whole ugly thing. That you know, he sweared that appa (teacher)
that her
hajj (holy pilgrimage) is not valid and everything and she must go make her hajj over, how can she
be so
jealous because why, what is this woman's name? Who's he married to (speaking to herself). I forgot
this
woman's name. Whatever. Ja, he's gonna get married. Because why they jealous because why she's
getting
married to him. And if he one day talaq (divorce) her he's talaq her for six slices and three cups of
coffee,
not like he talaqed me for two slices and one cup of coffee (laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA: It was a whole thing. I mean, you know the months between February to April, you
know how
it dragged. It felt like six months. With all this stories coming and going. And like, he swears my mother, to
say my mother's watching him by the mosque. Because why if you look out here you can see right by the
mosque.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA:
You know. And my mom stands always by the window to watch the kids coming from school,
going to madressra
(Islamic school) and things like that. Now my mom is watching him. And my mother is
sitting and scandalling
at the madressa about them and everything. You know. So…, and every time he
use d to call I say: "Faisal, all I need,
give me my talaq (divorce). I want nothing else". And finally, on the
sixth of April he phoned me. He said:
"Jubeida, it's me Faisal…Duss. You're sure it's my voice?" I say:
"Yes,
it's your voice". "Okay, I'm giving you you're talaq". And he said it like three times over the phone. I
said "Okay. But you know what? I still want it in writing. And I want it in front of a mahram
(representatives
from her family)". "Oh, but Allah is your witness". I say: "Ja, Allah is my witness. But
with
you…anything is possible".
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
"That you can say you never gave me my talaq (divorce), that I'm mad. I'm cuckoo".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I say: "I'm sorry".
INTERVIEWER: Ja. You not willing to take that chance.
JUBEIDA:
I'm not willing to take that chance. "If you put it in writing for me. You talaq (divorce) me.
Finally I accept it. But as from today I will sit my…ihdah (three month waiting period before a divorce is
finalized). I will sit that. It starts from today".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"But…I still want it in writing".
127

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: "From you". I phoned
his uncle after he put the phone down. I said: "Listen, Faisal just phoned
me. He gave me my three talaqs (divorce crees)over the phone now". He asked me: "Are you sure it's
Faisal?"
I said: "Yes. It was sure because why he said it's Faisal. And everything. I know his voice by now
already.
He did give it. What do I do. He said: "Well, now you start. You have your three…months. And
that's
it. You're three cycles is over, the you're a free woman. Right oh. You start from today". Because why
I wanted
to know now how I started my procedure form here to …getting now free". Then he said to me. I
said:
"Okay, jazā kum Állāh (thank you, litteraly meaning: may God reward you). I said: "But now, what do
I do?
I have to do my shopping? Faisal is not nifka-ing (financial support) me. Right oh. Faisal moved out
of the
house so that he don't nifka me.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: Because why he's suppose to nifka me for the three months.
RESERACHER:
Ja. Ja.
JUBEIDA:
I have to work.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja..
JUBEIDA: He say: "Okay. You've got
this option in Islam that you go to work, go home straight after
maghrib (prayer that is said just after sunset)
or whatever".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"You're not suppose to have no social life after maghrib (prayer that is said just after sunset).
You go for your shopping. You just go for shopping and come back. That's
your three months that you
have
to d o. Nothing else. No social life.
I said:" jazā kum Állāh (thank you, litteraly meaning: may God reward
you ). That's what I want to know".
You know. And that in that time we still had our arguments. Now it's
the children.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Now he starts fighting my children. Because why he know now, now my life is…my children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And he started to pulling
the children away. And the way in what…Yaseen was still…small.
It's now that Yaseen is like this. Yaseen
could have…He didn't bother with Yaseen.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: He know my main aim is… The big one. It's Ridwaan. And uh then he said…He used to pick
up Ridwaan
from Daral-ulam (theological
learning institute). Take him there to their house. Then…He
gave
me my talaq (divorce cree) on the sixth. And on the second of May…he…got married… to this
woman.
He still…Ridwaan came, he said: "Ma, it's extension six mosque lunch". I say: "Why must Yaseen
dress
up? Is your father getting married today? (In a playfully harsh tone). "No Ma, he's not getting
married. We're going for the lunch". I said: "No man, you're lying, I'm sure your father is getting married".
No body told me nothing. You know I just say things also.
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA:
"He said: "No, Ma man, we're going to extension six for lunch". In the meantime the children
128

also don't know.
INTER VIEWER: Okay.
JU BEIDA:
After the lunch there in extension six, then… they went to the granny. From the granny and
them
they went to Zack Park. And that's when they saw: "Huh, my daddy's getting married". I'm telling you
this one. Then Yaseen came home. That night there was people. "How Yaseen, where's you're koerta and
you're…
kofia? "No, it was Rayhaan's birthday. I said: "Reyhaan's birthday is May. I'ts not Reyhaan's
birthday.
You're telling lies". "No, we were Ma, we were in Zack Park, there was a birthday party (in a
child-like
tone)". He's got sweets in his pockets and everything. My child, you know, he loves nice things.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: One thing, he can't be bothered. Only afterwards he came and he sat behind my back.
"Mommy, you know what? Daddy
got married today (whispering)".
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA:
So I said: "Did she wear my rings (whispering)".
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA: Laughs. Because why the kids know my rings you know (laughing).
"No, she wore Mamma's
rings. I said: "Siss, couldn't he afford to buy her rings". You know. "Where they
staying?" "No, by her
mo ther's place". Oh, fine. And about a week or two later, he phoned me. And I don't know, what happened
and I said: "Oh, slamat (congratulations)
I hear you got married". He say: "Ja". I say: "Oh that's nice". But
I say:
" Slamat I'm divorced now". Because why he got married on the second and on the sixth, because
why
he didn't…Then the divorce papers… went through, you know. The same day I filed for divorce and I
filed
for maintenance for the children. You know. So, he didn't fill in the forms. So I had to back to the
sheriff
to pick up the forms. So Faisal came to fetch me. And that same morning when I went to see the
sheriff
I got his uncle. You know and that was now after months, from Eid (religious holy day) till
Bakhari
Eid, till after Bakhari Eid then I met his uncle and we were having a long chat here outside. You
know
at the bus stop. And he still said: "You know Juby, we were all waiting, when are you gonna wake
up…to
smell the coffee.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JUBEIDA:
It took you so many years… to wake up.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You really did a wise decision.
INTERVIEWER: His uncle.
JU BEIDA: His own uncle. His mother's brother…told me that. "We were to afraid to tell you what to do.
We were waiting, when are you gonna
wake up? You finally woke up to see what's happening. Mm? How
cou ld
you take it for so many years? ". And I'm telling you, everybody's asking me: "Juby, after so many
years?
What happened? You finally…It took you so long".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: I say: "Allah gives you that".
You know. Allah gives you that hidyyat (guidance).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
129

JUBEIDA: He gives you that saber (perseverance). You always say: "Tomorrow. Tomorrow it will be
better,
tomorrow it will be better". And at the end of the day you just say to yourself : "Ya (oh) Allah, I get
enough
on my plate. And if Allah feel that it's not gonna go anywhere, it' gonna happen.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why I got that
belief that nothing happen without the gudarat (will) of Allah.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Nothing. If Allah wants it to happen…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: …it's going to happen. And at the right time, at the right…day. You know right everything.
INTERVIEWER: So, you felt that
you're time will come.
JUBEIDA:
I felt…now my time is right. Because why I'm telling you since I went for the interdict. After
the interdict, I went to file for the divorce. The paper work went, it went smooth.
It's just that, everything
just fell into place like, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Like… the interdict. The papers, they accepted all the paper work all of a sudden.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. I mean when I, the day when I went for the filing for the divorce, you know. This
lawyer
that helped me also, she just…filled in everything. And she still said: "Don't ask for so little, ask for
so much
money, you know (hurried tone). Tell him you want 'this' maintenance and if the court then find
tha t no it's too much, they bring it down. You're not gonna loose out. You know. At least you're making
something for your children and everything
(hurried tone). All she said to me: "Go buy a twenty rand
stamp".
And the rest of the papers she filled in for me. I went to go buy the stamp. I came back (hurried
tone).
But that day it was like, I could go back to work (calmer tone). You know. And everything just fell
into place. And then she said to me: "You must just get this letter to… the, the dingese the sheriff. You
know.
And …I went. I took a day off the next day and I went to the sheriff. You know. And it's like, I also
came
into Lenz, I didn't know here the sheriff…Because why the nearest…Because why he's in Zack Park,
is…Lenz.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. Went to go look for the sheriff. And where I got off, the sheriff was just opposite
the road, you know and it just fell all in to place like.
INTERVIEWER:
Wow.
JU BEIDA: I said: "Ya (oh) Allah,
You know best".
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. "If you want it to happen: shukar (thank you)".
This means it really has to happen.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And the sheriff took the letter to his… mother's
house. Because why he was still
130

living by his mom. And uh…dingese….But nobody… took notice of reading the letter. They took the letter
and they stuck it all on the cupboard where everybody's letters is.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: He also didn't read the
letter. He left it. Now you get uh…ten days…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: …to reply on that mm your, your divorce papers. And …then Zhoggie phoned me. His uncle's
daughter. "Juby, what's happening?".
I say: " What's happening Zho?". "There was a letter there, and, you
know,
I opened it and I read (laughing). I say: "It's a divorce paper (in a firm tone)".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I say: "Oh, didn't he fill it in?". She said: "No, it's still laying there". Nobody bothering to look
at it. I say: "Oh yes, I did file for a divorce Zhogie. He gave me my talaq (divorce cree)". And then he still,
he went to go brag by that "That oh,
for you know, Yaseen is so old already, it's the first time I bought him
a pair
of school shoes". Because why then I demanding: "Yaseen has no school shoes, you have to buy him,
I've got no money".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: Cause why also,
I was broke, you know, cause why he left me with a two thousand rand of
petrol…bill, on my credit card…that
I had to pay. You know, and I paid it. He left me with a phone account
of a thousand and something. Which
I had to put the phone on, just incoming calls, no outgoing calls.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Until I could pay it. Now I…it's like, now I really get my budget you know. I had to cut.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
And I have to slowly.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
To pay everything off.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And…But like I said, Allah
made it so that …I could pay it off you know. Wherever I asked:
"Listen, can you give me grace, they
could. They did the phone for me so that I could pay it off till I could
pay it full again and things like that. And reconnect the phone. And when I got to the sheriff's office, when
I
gave that
letter, they said: "Fifty-six rand", I could
pay the fifty-six rand. I didn't even… squeal about it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I got into the taxi. It's like: "Shu-hu (as in a sigh of relief), shukar (thanks), I'm going to
be…Juby,
really you? You going to leave him after so many years. Hi-gee, I'm happy (in an animated
tone).
I was…quite a different person when I walked out of …The last thing was when I got to the sheriff's
-office,
is to walk out there, then I really felt: "Oh, gee, I'm gonna be free". Then Okay, the other things
came:
"Oh shit! No he's gonna perform about the children, this and that".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
131

JUBEIDA: Oh well, "Ya (oh) Allah, You know what's best".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: If he has to…whatever.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then we had another meeting with Jamiat. With the mawlanas (religious ministers). Twice he
didn't rocked up. The third time I got
to there, then mawlana told me: "Listen, it seems like this thing is
gonna
go through because why now he didn't come out for three…dingese. And then he told me about my
children.
That the father got all the rights.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why he, they under age. They're seven.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: The one is nearly mubalagh, nearly baligh (one who has reached
puberty) and the other one is
under, so it's the father's responsibility now. There's no girls so you've got no say. If he takes the children,
there's
nothing you can do.
INTERVIEWER:
Islamically.
JUBEIDA:
Islamically. This is mos now…I want my Islamic view.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: I'm still not worried. I did file for the Western because why this is to free me, because why…
through…
his mother and them I was married in court (in a rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: So, I want to have no…dingese…I want no thingies with him, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: I want to break now free
completely, everything. I want …Irrespective, if he, even if he takes
his furnisher,
I couldn't care. I was
to that stage that: "Hey! He can take the furnisher, he can take the
bakkie,
he can take everything I worked for. As long as I'm gonna get rid of him (in a very rapid tone).
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: Out of my life I'm gonna get him. Free, I don't want him. Really, I want that, you know. And
uh…Then,
when the mawlana told me I'm gonna loose my children, Islamically, everything, I burst
out crying.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: He said to me: "Mommy,
you can cry all you want to but like I tell you, it's gonna be better for
you. If you
loose your children, because
why a woman in Islam gets married again and the next husband,
like you see that man who walked out here (there was a man just came out before me), you see his marriage
is, the
wife got the children. And they have no understanding about the children because why …her, their
arguments
come: she takes her children's part".
132

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: "She never listens to him. And he can't take it anymore".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: So he wants to talaq (divorce)her on that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm
JUBEIDA: He say: "Everything else, that woman is fine, as a woman in Islam but only because of the
children's sake, the man can't take
it. He says: "If you are the type of woman that wants to get married
again, let
your children go. Even if you do it for the sake of your children but remember, your children is
gonna
grow up.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "They're gonna
come back to you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "They will see it. So whatever he do, if he takes the children, let them go. But we, I'm telling
you Mommy,
one day, they will come back to you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "Okay" (close to tears).
INTERVIEWER: Wow. That must have been a big thing for you.
JU BEIDA: If it has to happen like that…(crying)
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:…Ya
(oh) Allah, I accept it (crying).
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Then I came to realize,
as I'm walking back to work: "Ja, but kids do grow up", you know.
They will look and they will weight
the scale…
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: … And they will say:
"But Mommy used to do this, Daddy used to do that. Daddy's still doing
this,
Mommy's like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know, let's see where it's…gonna be.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA:
So, Ya (oh) Allah, You
know what's best. If I have to have the kids, shukkar (thank you). If I
don't have to, it's gonna be my second
time…I'm loosing them. So, no problem by me. And it came that,
oka y, he left Yaseen because why
then, he didn't have much place to stay. Ridwan was at Daral- Unum
133

(Islamic learning institute), coming and going. He used to poison the child's mind. I'm telling you, I had a…
rough
time in ninety-nine. Because why… I even cried over the phone. I even told my son that: "Well if
that's
how you feel, forget about me as a mother. I'm dead to you".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why that's how
far I stood to get my children, you know, to understand. Then he said:
"Ja, what
type of a mother are you, to tell your son that you're dead".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I said: "That's the type of mother I am".
INTERVIEWER: He's now playing with you.
JUBEIDA: Ja. He's now …He really waved my children in front of me as a carrot in front of a donkey.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "You know what? I'm willing to do that. To write my children off, for the sake of my
happiness and my freedom. Because why
mad! I'm not gonna get, Faisal. You're not gonna make me mad.
I want my freedom. I want my…My life,
that I had, I want it back. Not for jolling, not for going to disco's
or going
to friends, but my life".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUB
EIDA: The life I want. I want it back. And I said: "Even if I must write my son off to you".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: "You can have that. But remember,
they're gonna grow up. And you couldn't have that son all
by yourself. We made it together."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. I cried. My mother looked at me. I said: "Ma, I'll cry but one day, my tears gonna
dry up. And when it dries up, yous are gonna tell me I'm a horrible witch".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And they never believed
me. They never believed me. Until… last year…was it this year? This
year
January.
You see this big son of mine, he tempt me. You know that kids play's you up now.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja. They do.
JU BEIDA: It's like: "Oh Ma, I'll go to my father, oh you just say that". My father: "Oh, I'll go to my
mother".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's how they play
us off. And then, I never phoned him, he always phones
me and
that is where I, I got the upper hand on
him. I he phones me. He gives me a subject: "Oh, Ridwan
this".
Then I jus let go of what I feel about Ridwan. Or, he tells Yaseen… "Oh, you know what, you don't
support
your children, right? Fine. The divorce is through, you're pay two three months. So big deal, Boy!"
You can't afford
looking after your children. So who am I. I'm still your bloody slave! Looking after your
134

loody children. It's mos your bloody children, nê?".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I was just there to give
the thing. You know I just got lekker.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JU BEIDA: So, it's your children.
Fine. But I'm still supporting your children. Huh? So. And I just let go. I
don't give him… a second chance
to answer me (rapid tone). And when he wants to answer, I put the phone
down.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why now, he's frustrated. He didn't get his say.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
And I know, it works on him, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: So wh en he goes home, he must go moer her (laughs). He has
to go fight with her. He has to
find somebody
to take his frustration out. And that is where, what I'm still,
I'm still playing on it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Cause I know what type of a person he is.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA: He's a very short tempered
person. He's a arrogant person. And if you don't give him a
hearing, he gets like very mad. He can even break his hand on a wall.
That's how angry he gets, if he don't
get his
way. And, because I was so long with him, I know what irritates
him. What piss him off.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And lots of people don't.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And that is what
I do to him now. I'm tormenting him on the other way. Cause I
got so much hatred…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: …that he can die in front
of me, and if water or my spit can help him, I wouldn't even give him
that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I wouldn't. He played my son up to me and …then Ridwaan tried to tempt me also. And …in
December, he used to come in Ramdhaan
(holiest month in Islam during which Muslims are obligated to
fast) , now we fasting, come and go
as he want to, to his friends and whatever. Okay, you give them that
leniency
in Ramdhaan. Okay, you can boeka (break your fast) here one night, you can sleep there one
night,
it's holiday, things like that.
135

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: But just after Eid (religious
holy day). Eid day what happened is, he gave… I don't know if it's
the truth. Because why like he can lie, his sons can lie.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: He said he gave the child
five hundred rand, the son, the child said he gave him two hundred
rand. Then he came: "Ma…". Then
I was so cross, I said: "Ma, you know what? It's his duty to buy his
children
clothing. I'm no gonna buy. Every year I buy and…he just gets lekker.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: So, this year I'm not buying. He must buy. Because why the year before that I bought Ridwaan
a shoe of six hundred rand. You know.
And he like: "Oh jee, your mother can afford it, huh? Your wearing
ver y expensive
shoes". So he said:
"My mother bought it for me".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: You know. Things like that. Kulthum! My husband hated her. It's like she's instigating me and
you know he blames everyone.
INTER VIEWER: Your mother, now?
JUBEIDA:
No, my husband.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja?
JUBEIDA: He…he still don't like her, Kulthum. Because why she's like instigating me, because why
she's a single mother and things like that.
You know he never thought that I could make up my mind…
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
…myself. You know. And that it took so many years.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: From two years, that
I could build up. I got all that, you know. And then finally when it came
to mental abuse. You know physical abuse you can take. But when it comes to mental
abuse. It's the worse
thing
any person…can go through.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why, you know what? If you're weak, all that, that the next person is saying to you, it
works
on you. And you start… want to live that…type of life. You're inferior.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You, you're not the person you really feel you in you. You started breaking up that…selfconfidence.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. So, you doubt yourself, you start believing what they say.
JU BEIDA: You start believing what they say to you, you know. And some people fall into that
trap of
136

start living that type of life.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: If you're not strong enough,
you break.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I'm telling you, I come
from there. I went…when it came to physi…,mentally abuse, that's
when I said: "No, Boy. Now you're
going to far. You're not gonna break me that much".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: Mentally is because why, ag well, you're gonna smack me now, you gonna kick me. Good and
well
(loud tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I can take that.
I've got the mark for it. But mentally, it sits on you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Because why it's words that's thrown at you. And you start… weighing the words, you know.
Where
a punch, you don't weight it. It's there. It's done.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes.
JUBEIDA:
But words, you start weighing them.
RESERACHER: Mm. They have so much meaning.
JUBEIDA: You say: "Did he mean it this way…
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JU BEIDA: "…did he mean it that way. Is it really? What type of a person am I? Am I that type of a
person? (whispering tone)."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Am I really becoming that?
(whispering)."
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Some people go in to that direction. That's why I think…That's why a lot of women that
drin ks, they go in to that direction.
They start going in that direction. It's like he told me I'm gonna become
mu rtad
(one who gives up Islam). I will…wouldn't care about my children. Now, the only thing he don't
know
is that, I'm the type of person, don't tell me I can't do a thing.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: I'll show you.
INTERVIEWER:
Now, you will do it.
JUBEIDA:
I can, will do it and I can try and better myself. I'm gonna try not to become what you want me
137

to be. I'm gonna try and do it better so that I can proof to you: I can stand on my legs. Like he thought I, I
wouldn't
be able to stand on my legs.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: I wouldn't be able to, to keep up. You know. And things like that. Because why he think I'm
dependent on a man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Which he couldn't see
that, I do everything myself.
INTERVIEWER:
Exactly. Throughout the years.
JUBEIDA: Throughout the years he's married to me, I try and do things for myself. So, how come I'
dependent
on a man.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
I take it, women,
that goes from a divorce… down, they have no self-esteem. They pity
the mselves.
They depend on that husband. That man.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And there are men…I feel, like today I feel men is nothing.
You don't have to depend…they're
just another human being.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
They're there to support you. I don't say I'm not gonna get married again. I feel very happy. I
can feel that I achieved what I want…Not
wanted in life. I don't have yet what I want. And uh…but my life
is getting
back on track.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I'm starting to manage things. I'm starting to things that I wanted to do in life. And my life is
much
better…than what it was with him.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: Over the years. For this
two years, I've achieved more than what I achieved in my fourteen
years,
fifteen years of marriage, eleven years of living with my mother. I achieved what I wanted to
in…For
that leven years, I achieved in two years.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Like I said, I could even
afford a to buy me a new panty. Really, I weren't lying to you. And I
mean
I can buy now for me, what I couldn't do when I was married.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know.
INTERVIEWER: Which is…It doesn't make sense.
JUBEIDA:
It doesn't make sense. I mean I was married. I had a companion. It's like, he was suppose to
138

say: "Hey Doll, I see your panties are finished, hey man jirr, go buy you a new panty".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja, ja.
JUBEIDA: "Hey Doll, your shoes are finished. Go buy you a new pair of shoes. Hey man, that dress is not
nice
for work,
get you new dresses. Although I belief in having five dresses for work, Monday to Friday.
And
then Saturday Sunday I wear what I had on Monday or Tuesday. You understand. I still have that. And
If I take one out, I make me a new dress.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Although I can sew, I still
make me as I need a dress.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
JUBEIDA: You understand.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: But…that is how my life is suppose
to be. You know. And I can afford things. I don't have
that
of: "Oh, if I buy for me, must I buy for him".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I have to ask for this. What is gonna be said.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Things like that. You know. Although, I still have that: I'm gonna get married again. I am
goi ng to get married and I told my mom and them, since the end of last year, I am getting married. Even if I
become
someone's…second wife.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
But I am going to.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: It's not because why:
Oh, I… But the thing is, you're not getting married to the same person.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA: Now you gonna look for what… you really want in life. What I really wanted in a man, now
I'm gonna take deeper. Like I told
my nephew, he must first take out his bank statement for me. And show
me his car papers (laughs).
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA: No faking, this my car and
I earn so much.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, yes.
JUBEIDA:
I want to see his bank statement. Really, you can afford me (laughing).
INTER VIEWER: So, you're gonna
be more careful.
139

JUBEIDA: And do you have car papers, this is not your friends papers (laughs). I don't have to work for
things,
you're gonna give me a life. Even if you have a wife but if he can give me a house. You don't have
to support
my children. Because I'll tell him: "Listen I'll work to see my kids through".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: As long as you give me
my grocery money. You're happy the way we live. Whether you come
once a month, once a week, as long as I got somebody that's a companion. Because why you see my mom
is old.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: She left two or three opportunities for marriage, thinking of her children.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Right oh. She gave her life up for us.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And today? We don't care about her, we have our own
lives to live. Although I'm living with
her, I try and make it as comfortable as I can.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
But you can never do what a companion do.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: You sleep there…You
got a pain, he puts his hand there, you feel happy: Oh jee there's
somebody
caring.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes, sure.
JUBEIDA: You know. Even if he's snoring but his hand is there on that pain, it helps with the panado that
you taking, you know (laughing tone) .
INTERVIEWER: Ja (laughing).
JUBEIDA: Or you got a problem, you need somebody to talk to. You cannot sit and talk to your children
about things.
INTERVIEWER:
No, you can't.
JUBEIDA: I mean I sit and I joke with Faisal
and them.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: I talk shit
with them. I talk shit with their mother. You know. We joke our lives and
everything. But you still have those certain things you wanna discuss with a close companion.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA:
Somebody that's intimate to you.
140

INTERVIEWER: Yes.
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's
what I'm still looking for.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I'm still gonna get
that. That's what I'm still gonna do. Because I know, my kids are
gonna get married. On day they gonna say: "Oh hell, here's this old lady again. Huh?
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JU BEIDA: "Oh jee, my mother is still there". Which daughter-in-law is gonna look after me?
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA: Me? That's so talkative. I sit with another aunty's daughter, she'll put me quick out.
INTERVIEWER:
Laughs.
JUBEIDA:
Now, that is now my life is.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA: So that's how I got out of it. It took a long
time to build up. I'm a person who can hold out for
years. I can tolerate a lot. Which you get people that
can't.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
My sister…went cuckoo. My sister is divorced as well. We're got a family…In my
family…most
of the women are divorced.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA:
If you look at it, my mom's eldest sister died, she was a divorced but her husband had another
woman.
She even raised that women's child when that woman died. My mom's sister, opposite the road, she
divorced
her husband or they separated.
INTERVIEWER:
Uh.
JUBEIDA:
Until he died. My mom left my father.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Okay, after a couple of months, three months, you're talaq has fallen.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Although they, he never gave her a talaq, until he died.
My father was killed. And I only met
him at
the age of fifteen. So to me
he was died long time.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I was a very rebellious child.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
141

JUBEIDA: And I'm a very…headstrong child.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Were all those relationships abusive?
JUBEIDA:
Uh… no.
INTERVIEWER:
Not.
JUBEIDA:
Not really.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: My one cousin got divorced,
remarried again. Right? That's my eldest cousin. And it's mainly
in the girls. The second one was abusive.
My second cousin, my auntie that died's daughter. Her husband
was abusive.
Because he's seeing another woman…
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: …in their marriage. And it took her family to go and fetch her in Bloemfontein, to bring her
home. She's divorced. My…her baby
sister, the husband died after their child was born. She's still divorced.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. My sister, my baby sister, was married twice. And twice divorced.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
She got three kids out of it. The little one you hear?
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: That's her baby…from the second marriage. She's also a 'don't-care'. You know. She is blaming
eve rybody and everything in life but herself to pull her life right. I say my mom gave us what she could.
She gave us a little Islam, even though we can't read Arabic. Shukar (thanks) for
that, she kept us on the
deen
(religion).
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
She did everything. We must make shukar. It's what we made out of life.
INTERVIEWER:
Sure.
JUBEIDA: From school time until now what we want to make out of Islam and out of our own lives.
Right? My other sister got three kids.
She was married once. She's divorced now six years. But she went
cuckoo.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I mean my eldest
sister is on…medication. Because why she's a mental case. She went
off.
Really.
And…. well it's a bad thing to say but at the end I told my brother, ex-brother-in-law, that: "Listen
here,
my sister is putting you through so much hell, and you still stick it. It seems like it's over between
yous.
Why don't
you do the final things? Now it's considered the husband get the child. You know. If the
children, I if it's
not the wife. And she get maintained even though she is sickly. And the government is
still, up to today that she's living on her own, working, the government is still looking after her. And they
still. And they still see that she gets
her medication and that she get her work.
142

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And she's
quite happy now.
INTERVIEWER:
Nê?
JUBEIDA: She's living on her own.
She was here last here in August. We had a good chat. Now we can, as
sist er,
we can talk to each other. Before we used to fight over the phone. And until one day, I got so mad to
her and I just told her what I felt as a sister.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Now, she is much lighter than me. She looks a White. My sister can pass as White.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know, and then she said she's White, she's not like us. I say: "Oh well, your ass might be
wh ite but I've got a big white ring on my back side that's whiter then yours". You know. And things like
that. Because why I'm, I'm very rebellious,
first of all, like I said.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I'm still like that. And nobody is gonna sit on my head.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
And tell me what they want to.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: And that is how we
are. And I think after I had a good chat with her also, tell her what is life
all about, I think that's when she realized: "Hey, it's not gonna
help me to be in a mental house every time.
It's not
gonna help me to take all these medication." That up…from that time till now, she's taking a quarter
tab let…a day. Where she used to be on s full three or four tablets a day.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. So I take it as: You sometimes, you have to cruel to be kind.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And like me the day my son decided: "I'm going to my father!" I said: "Good Boy". This year
January, he said: "I'm going to my father".
I said: "Fine, you wanna go? I'm not crying anymore my baby.
Go. I'll
help you pack". Then the father came here, he asked me: "Now why you're standing behind the
wall?"
I say you're a non-mahram (mahram relative or someone she's not eligible to marry) to me. "Oh, but
you're speaking to other non-mahrams".
I say: "Those ones I want. You I don't want anymore. Sorry, Boy.
So you're a non-mahram. Veil's suppose
to be there. The veils don't have to be there for the others, I want
the m and I'll go for them" (laughs).
You know. Because he always used to give me that of non-mahram.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JUBEIDA:
You know when we were married. "You're not suppose to speak to a non-mahram. My
brothers
are non-mahrams and things, you understand.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
143

JUBEIDA: But you accuse me with the non-mahrams, so? The appas (religious teachers) with the
boerkas
(veils) on, with the veils on, they speak to non-mahrams. What's wrong with me?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm. Ja, ja.
JU BEIDA: So, you're a non-mahram, stand by the door, I don't see you, klaar.
INTERVIEWER:
Keep you distance.
JUBEIDA: Ja. And I helped him packed. And they
were shocked. My mother was shocked.
INTERVIEWER:
So, even though you stayed for their sake, mostly, but sort of, its your turn now.
JUBEIDA:
Ja. It's my turn. Now I lash at him. I don't give him… shit. I don't want to hear about him. You
wanna
tell me how he look? I don't want to know. I can tell you his life is in shambles. His life is shit.
Sin ce his married for the last two years, he sleeps by how many different places, he keeps on moving.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why that woman…and that woman, she's not me! Excuse me. She wants her outfits
and week-ends she goes to papa.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why her mother died just
after they got married. And my, the day in June, my grandfather-in-law
past away. They, well that's the
only time my mother-in-law phoned to tell my mother my
grand-father-in-law past away. Then my auntie -in-laws…all of them…I must say I've got good in-laws,
they insisted I've been there. I cried,
I didn't want to go. Then they said: "But it's your appa (teacher),
fourteen years. Who the hell is she.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
I said: "No, I don't want a situation. Because why I didn't know how it gonna happen.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: Because why that will
be the first day I'm gonna see her really.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: At the mayet (funeral). And they insist. They wanted to come fetch me at work. I said: "No, I'll
come". I went there, the mayet went
out at seven. I went half-an-hour before the mayet (deceased body)
left
the house. I went and…I greeted my mother-in-law. Because why she was in the passage as I came in. I
went to
everybody. Everybody was happy to see me, shaukar (thanks) for that. And they said:
"We thought
you're not coming. We wanted to come
and fetch you actually. I said: "No, I told yous…"
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"…I'll come to the last bit". My mom was there the whole day and uh… After the mayet left I
wanted
to leave. They said no, I must come and eat. They made me stay by telling me to carry the food
from
next door in. And I helped. You know afterwards I became myself again. Washing dishes, carrying
the food, cleaning the tables, you know what she turned around and she went to go and tell them? "Oh,
Juby
was so bar for me. She even served on me, she wanted to see me". And you know when I took that
144

woman's plate, I didn't even know it was her.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja (laughs).
JUBEIDA: I said: "If I knew it was her, I would
have asked her: "Hey, where's my bloody rings?" But
when
he phoned me one night, when we had an argument about the child, I told him: "You know what?
(Oh,
her name is Shanaaz). You know, if you love Shanaaz so much, you wouldn't sleep on her bloody bed.
You
know what? You will buy her a new bed".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "You can't even bloody
afford a bed".
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: You can't even bloody afford a bed for her, so what love. Do you call that love?
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
You just got married to show me you can get married. But, boy, I got news for you, it doesn't
hurt me
one bit. Oh, he calls me back
and I put the phone down (laughs). " Oh, you know what? You're
que stioning my love for Shanaaz. " I say: "Yes I do. Cause why if you love a woman, you're not sleeping in
her bed. You're gonna make sure. Even if you didn't buy her furnisher. The first thing you're gonna do: I
don't
wanna sleep in another man's bed".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Even if that bed is new, you're still gonna buy a new bed for her. Huh? I say: "But what did
you do. Shit did you buy her for over the years, huh? Two years, you didn't buy her shit! You're still
sleeping in her bed (laughs)". And she still runs to her father. They were now, in Ramdhaan, they were like
sep arated for a couple of months. She lost about three to four kids already. The one day in Ramdhaan
Ya seen
came, my small one: "Ma,
you know what? Shanaaz is pit in the legs". Then he burst out laughing.
What
the hell? "Ja Ma, Shanaaz is pit in the legs. She has to go to hospital. She's in hospital (laughs)". And
we're
laughing. In the meantime the child is in the tube. I mean now. What does that show you? His life is
not good. His life is a misery.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
So, one of our friends phoned the other day. She said she's going to sue him because he
sweared
her ugly here in the centre. I said: "You know what? To go to him and speak it out, it's not gonna
help.
The only thing where you're gonna
get through to his thick scull? Send him a interdict or sue him.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: She said: "Juby, that is true." You know. She say: "You know why is he going on like this? He
is missing
you because why you spoiled him over the years.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I say: "Well, I just did what any normal person would do to live a happy life".
INTERVIEWER: Yes.
JUBEIDA:
I say: "Because why I come from a family that was broken up".
What I have now, its never
what I've planned for my children. I always promised myself: I will not divorce.
Because why it's
something that he always used to say:
"You're family, all the women in your family divorce".
145

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Huh? And I said: "One
day, insha-Allah (God willing) my life wouldn't be like that. I will try
and make a success of my marriage.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Huh?
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So
that was part of the reason why you hung in…
JU BEIDA: It was part of the ….to say : Hey, my life is…this is not what I wanted. Because why when I
got married I told myself I don't want a abusive life. I want a happy life. I always see my life
as being
happy, full of love.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. Having
the caring husband. You know. Even if he don't work but he must be
caring, he must be loving. Like I said
to Faisal, I mean I want a husband that can bath me. He can carry
me.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. It's like: "Oh Doll, I'll do it!" You know. "You did it for me. I'll do it" . Not the
husband that just wants to take all the time. Somebody that just wants you to do all the time for him.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
It must be a give and take.
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. That's what
I want in life. The they laugh. They say: "Auntie Juby, where…". I
say: "I'm gonna get a husband like that. I want a tall
husband that can carry me ( laughing). You know. No,
and that is… my life really. And I really I'm very happy
the way I am now.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. What do you
think of, of abuse in , among "Coloureds"?
JUBEIDA:
It's a typical thing.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Coloured" wives, it's typical and it's becoming now, it's going in to the Indian community as
well.
Where it was first, uh before, when I was a child I always used to see it in Black people only.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why, you see,
I grew up in Port Elizabeth. I was born in Johannesburg, grew up in
Por t Elizabeth. Where you used to get the "Coloureds" and the Blacks living in a community.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And you always used to see the Blacks, always hitting their wives.
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
146

JUBEIDA: You know. And because why they having…Blacks was the first lot to have more than one
wife.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Or either you see the wives
fighting amongst each other, when the husband is like out. Or the
husband coming to beat up the woman.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. And you always
used to see that. And then I lived, we moved to from uh
Cleinsville, we moved to Bethalsdorp.
In the house we lived, there was a couple. They weren't married,
righ t oh. But it was a beautiful woman. She was really looked as White as well. The guy wasn't bad
looking.
But because they were on drugs. Drinking, mainly.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know. Because why that time drugs was a out thing. It was mainly
liquor and dagga.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
He used to beat her up. And I always used to say to myself: "Why is this woman taking this
from
this
man?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And…you know that fight like cats and dogs. She's blue, purple, you know.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JU BEIDA: And she goes back to him. She's like putty in his hands. And they all loving again to for Friday
night
to happen again.
INTERVIEWER:
Same story.
JUBEIDA: Same old story. I always asked myself: "Why is she doing it?"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: And I could never understand why, you know? In fact I think they do it because why…
sometimes
there's so much love in you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: You just want to give.
But the next opposite person, don't want to take it. You know. They
take…and, and once they know what's
your weakness, nê?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm?
JUBEIDA: What I found out is the minute they find out what's your weakness. Maybe you love them so
much that you'll give you're life for
them.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Or, okay, you got kids with them.
147

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why "Coloureds
is mainly…kids.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Right? You will fight for that children.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Because why most of the "Coloured", elderly people, come out of bad homes.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why you must know our "Coloured" people have that trade: Father was abusive, you
come out of a abusive home. Or your
come from uh a jolled father.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Many of the fathers were jolling.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: So now you carry it over: "I don't want it. Oh my husband can joll,
I'm gonna look the other
way"
.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know.
INTERVIEWER: But you wanna keep it together at all cost.
JUBEIDA: But you wanna keep it together
because why for the sake of my children. My mother used to
do it.
INTERVIEWER: Yes.
JUBEIDA: It's like I come out of a family, my mother used to do it. My mother
used to stick. My father
used
to beat her up. But she used to stick, she was there for us.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: I'm gonna do it. The boys
become again. They become aggressive to their wives. And they
can't understand
why the wives can't take it because why maybe that wife comes out of a family where it's
loving!
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA: And he comes out of …abusive family, so he becomes abusive to that. But the girl is: Oh, my
mother did it, let me try it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You
know. And she's gonna do everything, you know….She'll even be killed. A lot of women
get killed
for that.
148

INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: Due…And she goes into
denial. The main thing is you go into denial, because why you're still
covering
that mess. Because why you don't want your children to be hurt ( in a whispering tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You don't want people
outside, to know what's inside. You give that rosy cover, you know.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And that is what is wrong with our "Coloureds",
that we keep up that front: "Hey people
mustn't
know what's going on."
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: But people can hear, they can see.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I know, the day the day Faisal…broke my finger,
because why I, I, I was, uh I didn't want him
to h it Ridwan. You know what I told them at work? I was playing with the boys and they hurt my finger.
The I go to that : "Hey man, Juby!
Covering up for this ugly… thing! Mm? It's no gonna happen Juby.
You're
gonna do it once,…"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
"…it's gonna go further than this".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And I think that's also…where
I got to that: "Hey, you cannot cover it up".
INTERVIEWER:
Ja.
JUBEIDA:
Its not gonna go.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Because why then you
look, and you sit and think of everything and people you looked
aro und. Because, I'm telling you, I looked at people's lives, before I got married. Because why my one best
frie nd,
my best friend, she got divorced…Due to…her husband jolling.
INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JUBEIDA: You know. And he used
to come home and lie to her and wants to beat her up. And I used to
run with her in the night when he used to do that. And I always said to myself: " I don't want that type of
life".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And at the end I found
myself in the middle of it!
INTERVIEWER:
The exact same thing.
149

JUBEIDA: You know. It's only that: I never found out that he was jolling (having an extramarital affair). I
found
out that he was jolling afterwards.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: I think if I knew he was jolling
then, it would have been stopped earlier.
INTERVIEWER:
Okay.
JU BEIDA: But I never knew…He did his jolling, or whatever he did outside, so discreet, that only when I
really got to the creed: "Hey, enough is enough", that's when it hit me. And all the stories, I'm telling you.
Stories
things like…Huh? Where was I? Was I in this marriage ( in a joking tone).
INTERVIEWER:
Is this the same marriage.
JUBEIDA: Is it really the man I was married to? Did he really do all these things?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA:
It's just that he was doing it behind my back. And I sticked it out for all these years? Huh?
Then I put one and one together and
I said: "Oh, that's why he did this. So that's why he came and beat me
up because why he was frustrated outside to come and do it here" (soft tone of voice). That's why now,
wh en he do that to me he phones me up (soft tone of voice), so now I can give him back, what he gave to
me (in a loud tone)! Because why now he can't come in and do it to me.
INTERVIEWER:
Yes.
JUBEIDA:
He can't come and hit me.
INTERVIEWER: Ja. Ja, ja.
JU BEIDA: You know. So now he has to do it to somebody else. Give it to the…It's like I say: "Give it to
the bitch!" I wouldn't go face her. You can give it to her.
Now you don't have to mess me around. Now I
can mess
you over the phone. I don't even phone him.
But if he phones me, boy, I can give it to him.
Yo u've never seen my face or my or my voice change
so quick into from …happy…to cross. And then,
very abrupt… and very rude and very he avy like fighting ( in a loud animated and rapid tone). And he say:
"Jubeida! You're fighting again? I didn't phone to fight". I say: " Who the hell is fighting? I'm just telling
you the truth (laughs)".
INTERVIEWER:
So now's you're chance to just let go (laughs).
JUBEIDA:
You know. I let go now. I get him back for …what he did to me…in years. And, like what
people
are saying, it seems like it's working. And it's killing him.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: But I told him the day he left: "My love I had for you, boy, I promise you, it's gonna kill you".
And
I, I mean it. It's gonna kill him… slowly.
INTERVIEWER:
Do you think you're feelings will ever change?
JUBEIDA: I don't think so. I've, I'm that type of person I can forgive but I can never forget you.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And if you hurt me once, don't think I'm gonna ever. And I can…I've got proof over years,
150

people that hurt me, I don't know if it's psychologically or is it just that it's put out, that people that hurt
over
years as I was a child, nê? Out of the family now, this is people that we lived with.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And as I look at their lives
now, from my side of a adult, I know out of that. You know
bec ause why we were poor and we were dependent on other people and they hurt me and today they don't
have
good lives.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: No, it's some women,
really, they go deep in. You know if you're not strong enough, you go
down. And that is with the "Coloured"
women, they always…Because it's verbal abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm?
JUBEIDA:
Physical abuse they can take. Because they get their share in. Because why I can tell you,
"Coloured" women are very aggressive.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Right? So if I …You give me two, I give
you one shot and the blood goes: "Hey, I had him
you know"
(in animated tone). She feels happy. But when it comes to verbal abuse.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
You know. She starts…living that life. Because why he's abusing and that is what he labels
her with. And she starts to live it.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
They're very weak. And those ones that come out, they go cuckoo. Because why they're… very
dependent
on men.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: It's very seldom that I've seen women-except "Coloured", even White women- that goes into
they
say: "Hey, I can stand on my feet and show him I can do it better".
INTERVIEWER:
Right.
JUBEIDA: Unless, she comes out
of a strong family.
INTERVIEWER:
So you think it's a mental thing I mean because a lot of women are very independent,
they
work and whatever but …
JU BEIDA: Ja, but no,…(in a high pitched tone)
INTER VIEWER: …it's a mental thing, it's something up here…
JUBEIDA: …it, it's mentally because why the husband, like I said the men tell you: "You inferior, you
cannot
do without me!"
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JU BEIDA: Because why he throws that in front: "You know
what? I earn eight or three thousand rand.
151

What do you earn, Darling? You earn two-fifty. What you gonna do with two fifty?".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Now you sit and you weigh. "Two-fifty, I've got rent, water and lights to pay. I've got food.
Ay,
I've
got the children. He's gonna walk out, he's gonna leave me with the children". But she don't think
of " Hey, he has to pay maintenance".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: "Then I'm gonna have
extra money". You know. And if she leaves him, obviously there'll be
mo re in. Because why food, you'll buy less food, you don't have to feed him. Because why he eat more
meat
than the children. She don't think that. They don't weight that.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Then she thinks: "Two-fifty, three hundred, put it together, five hundred
rand. Jirr, I'm gonna
be less off". "No! I can't let you go
Darling", you know "I'll take you're abuse, yes I'll take it".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Bull shit! That don't work. You leave the three thousand. You take your two-fifty, you can go
further than three thousand rand. With two-fifty. I'm telling you. And I'm telling you, she sits, she can sit
in that office, she can have what job.
It comes to supporting. And the type of lifestyle we live.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
That is what women can't take. They can't say to themselves…Because why now she say:
"He's
got the car and now I have to go back to taxi. I, he got this, I have to do this. Everything I have to do,
goes according to taxi".
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why now she was spoiled with his …BMW his driving or whatever car yous bought
together.
INTERVIEWER: No you have to give up the comfort.
JU BEIDA: I have to give up the comfort. I have to drag my children into the taxi. Oh jee, no more
hairdresser
I have to do my hair myself. What the hell! You wanna have the comfort or you wanna have the
discomfort.
I'll, rather have my comfort with my two-fifty, do my own hair, get in to a bloody taxi or a
buss, drag my children
in to it. And :"Hey, voertsek!" But you get others, I've got a friend, no honestly.
Thr ee years she and her husband didn't touch each other. He's living his life, she's living her life. She is in
suc h depression that she goes running and she gets so skinny. She buys the children any toy. Then she goes
in to depression,
she sleeps the bloody whole Sunday, and the children has to play and mess up the house
like she wants to. When she's finished she gets up. Some Sundays she don't cook. When she's so
depressed.
Then she buys take-aways because why…she earns a good salary.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
And I mean really good salary. So she's an accountant, right? But she don't have the
happiness.
Why
she don't wanna divorce him? Because why today mos people say your provident funds yous have to
share
up equally. Everything have to go evenly. But hey, you and the husband agree: "Listen here, you
want
your freedom, you go, I go. I keep mine is mine, although we're married in community of property,
yours is
152

yours. What do you want in the house? You see my salary, my pension fund, my provident fund, is mine
for my children. Right oh? You're not touching it. Get to agreement like that. And listen you're provident
fund,
you want the car, Boy, take the car. What do you want? You want the cupboards. Take the half of the
house.
Then, or you want half of the house? You sell the house then.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: You know if it comes to
that. Sell the house, share the furnisher, but my provident fund, I
worked for my company, it's mine. Your provident, whatever you worked for it's yours. But the rest that we
got in the house, we both worked for it, nê?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Share that. But forget about it. She doesn't want to divorce the guy because she's worried
about
the thirteen
years of pension fund and provident fund. And she want's to live in misery? You know with
our reunion, you know what he did? She got a false tooth. He hide that tooth, till after the reunion. Because
why he didn't want her to go. Can you get that? She was so depressed. I said: "What the hell, Merlyn. Is it
worth
it? You see that you're there. Toothless or tooth not. You be there. Even if I must make you a tooth,
you're
gonna be there. Because why this is rubbish. You live, you've go your own way with your car, he
goes
his own way. Just because of one tooth that he's hide away. Then he made her so simple. He came
back
the Sunday early…and he dropped it in the child's… jewelry box. She looked six times in that jewelry
box and she didn't find the tooth. Then all of the sudden, Monday morning, here's the tooth rocked up.
Mm?
Now
I mean is it worth it?
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Huh? My friend was skinny at school. We used to call her Ertjies because why that's how thin
her legs used to be. You must she what
she looks now. She's got three children. They younger than mine. I
sai d to her: "Merlyn, that's not life. Sorry.
I wouldn't go through it". And that's, that's what I say, that's
"C oloured women". They want to go because why they weight their comfort and the discomfort. But you
have more discomfort seeing this man bloody every day in front of your life! Mm? Or you come home:
"Oh
shit!
His gonna come. I wonder what time he's gonna come". I can tell you, you live with a man in a house,
you lay in that bed, you're separate beds, you still lay in the bed and wonder and listening what time is he
coming
in.
INTRERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA:
Because why that door has open sooner or later because why he's got his own key. Or you
know
that car already. You're gonna hear it. When it pulls up. You're gonna look at the time: "Oh, he's
coming
now. I wonder who he's seeing? Although yous got nothing in common.
INTERVIEWER: Mm.
JUBEIDA: You still ask yourself: " Wonder whose he seeing". You know. Because why you know you're
not seeing anybody .
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: Maybe he's coming from his mom's place or from friends. But you still wonder where.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You question
so much.
JUBEIDA:
You question yourself. And that…is killing you slowly inside. And me I can't kill myself.
153

INTERVIEWER: Ja.
JU BEIDA: Life is too beautiful (laughs) Life is worth living. No, but like I say: We're all out there for
punishment.
We're glutton for punishment and…some can take it, some can't. Some want glamour and
they'll…I
know people that will live, they live together, they live happy, but for glamour. They'll even put
on that
pretending kiss and hugs in front of people. When they get home, jere, it's moer to vloek from her
to New
Canada and back.
INTERVIEWER:
Mm.
JUBEIDA: And that's it. I know people.
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Putting up a front.
JUBEIDA: Ja. I can't. My life is real (laughs). There's a real life out there. There's a life to live. That's the
way
is.
INTERVIEWER:
Jubeida, jazā kum Állāh, for everything. I really appreciate your time and your effort.
JUBEIDA: Okay,
no problem.
154