What Should Have Been But Never Was : Cuevas -vs- Palomino.

July 2010
Book Reviews
Billy C Speaks!
Historical

Archie Moore: The Ageless Warrior
He was possibly the greatest light heavyweight of all time, The wily "Old Mongoose" Archie Moore. The man who
scored 140 knockouts in a career that spanned from 1936 to 1963 never lost his crown in the ring. Although he
unsuccessfully challenged twice for the heavyweight title, he did campaign successfully among the "Big Boys"
throughout his tenure as a professional boxer. His record reads lie "Who's Who" of boxing history. In 228 recorded
bouts, Archie was only stopped seven times, a testimony to his courage and uncanny defensive ability.
Born on December 13, 1913, ( or 1916 to Archie) Moore boxed for years without due recognition. He fought all over the
country. He even traveled to Australia and Argentina in search of fame and fortune. After six years on the circuit, Archie
began to make his move toward the big time. In 1942, he knocked out Shorty Hogue in two rounds. Hogue had
decisioned Archie no less than three times earlier in his career. He also beat rugged Jack Chase and drew with Ed
Booker. In 1943, he won two out of three against Chase. In 1944, Moore lost by a knockout to Booker and also dropped
a decision to the great Charley Burley. 1945 was a good year for Archie as he lost only two of fourteen fights. He beat
Clevelander Lloyd Marshall twice. He was stopped by another Clevelander, the outstanding Jimmy Bivins. He lost a
decision to Holman Williams but kayoed Holman in a rematch.
By this time Archie was formidable enough to warrant a title shot but it would be seven long years before he was
granted one. Along the way, Moore would beat Curtis Sheppard twice and Bert Lytell twice. He would beat Bivins four
times in rematches. He would defeat Harold Johnson in three put of four contests. He also scored victories over Ted
Lowry, Bob Satterfield, Phil Muscato, Alberto Lovell and Jimmy Slade. The only boxer who could handle Archie was
Ezzard Charles. Ezz beat Moore three times. The last time by a spectacular eighth round knockout in Cleveland. Finally
on December 17, 1952, presumably just after his 39th birthday, Archie met yet another Cleveland legend, Joey Maxim.
With Maxim's world light heavyweight title on the line Archie won a persuading decision to become a champion at last.
As world champion the legacy of Archie Moore would flourish. He defeated Maxim twice in title rematches. He beat
heavyweight Nino Valdes twice, Bob Baker and Bert Whitehurst. He would successfully defend his crown with
knockouts over Harold Johnson and Bobo Olson. On September 21, 1955, Archie would get his first crack at the
heavyweight crown when he met Rocky Marciano. In the second round, Archie sent Marciano to the canvas. Rocky beat
the count and lasted out the round. However, slowly the tide turned in Marciano's favor. Rocky proved to be too strong
for the gritty Moore who finally succumbed in round nine. He kayoed Yolande Pompey in a title defense and on
November 30, 1956, he was matched with Floyd Patterson for the heavyweight championship that Marciano had
vacated. Although Archie was given a good chance to win by experts, the youthful Patterson was much too fast and
stopped Moore in round five.
Archie went back to defending his light heavyweight crown stopping the highly regarded Tony Anthony in seven
rounds. Moore continued to meet heavyweights in hope of securing one more shot at that title. Archie defeated Howard
King twice, Roger Rischer, Willi Besmanoff and Charley Norkus before putting his title on the line. Moore's 1958 bout
with Canada'sYvon Durelle secured Archie's place in fistic history. Repeatedly knocked down in the early rounds and
then down again in the fifth, Moore refused to surrender. By the middle rounds Durelle began to tire. Archie came on to
stop Durelle in the eleventh round to retain his title in a classic thriller. In their 1959 rematch Yvon was a lot less
troublesome as he exited in round three. Moore did not defend his title at all in 1960 much to the dismay of the National
Boxing Association who withdrew recognition of Archie as a champion on October 25th. Old foe Harold Johnson beat
Jesse Bowdry to claim the vacant NBA title. Still recognized be New York State and the European Boxing Union Archie
decisioned Giulio Rinaldi in his final title defense. On February 10, 1692, New York and the EBU stripped Archie of his
crown. A feat no mere mortal could accomplish in the ring. Finally the ageless wonder began to slow down. Archie still
had enough left in 1962 to draw the future protege Cassius Clay. Clay had won the light heavyweight Gold Medal at the
1960 Olympics and had trained briefly under Archie early in his pro career. The brash upstart overwhelmed the aging
warrior as he had predicted in round four. Archie had no more illusions of becoming heavyweight champion.
Upon his retirement, Archie did some acting and he also became very involved in helping the youth of America. He
started a program called "Any Boy Can" and used this as a vehicle to reach young people in a positive manner. Archie's
book which is aptly titled "Any Boy Can" explains Archie's views on helping youth as well as Archie covering his life
and boxing career.
Jim Amato

Youngstown great Lenny "Boom Boom" Mancini...
Although he will be best remembered as the father of Ray Mancini, Lenny was a pretty darn good
fighter in his own right.
Lenny was born in Youngstown, Ohio on July 12, 1919. The city of Youngstown and the surrounding
areas produced such outstanding fistic talent in the 1940's with the likes of Tony Janiro, Tommy Bell
and Sonny Horne. Lenny was among the talented Y'town exports.
Standing at 5' 2", Lennny who turned pro in the late 30's slugged his way to a world ranking during
the glorious 40's.He was an extremely popular attraction in New York as he climbed the ratings ladder.
In December of 1939 he lost an eight rounder to tough Johnny Rinaldi.
Lenny bounced back in 1940 fighting a six round draw with future welterweight king Marty Servo.He
kayoed Frankie Terranova and outscored Joey Fontana. He then drew with Jimmy Vaughn and
again outpointed Fontana. Lenny then took a tough decision over Carl "Red" Guggino and closed
out the year splitting a pair of eight round verdicts with Irving Eldridge.
In 1941 he lost on points to the highly respected Leo Rodak. He came back to defeat Billy Marquart
over ten in New York and then again in a Cleveland rematch.
On May 19,1941 Lenny met National Boxing Association lightweight champion Sammy Angott in a
non-title fight at Cleveland's Public Hall. After ten grueling rounds Angott was awarded an unpopular
split decision. Lenny would never receive a shot at the crown. In his next fight he drew with Terry
Young. In August he lost on points to Pete Lello.Still Lenny and Canadian Dave Castilloux were considered
the top two lightweight contenders.On November 11 Lenny went to Montreal and won a convincing
decision over Castilloux.
Lenny served his country during the war and when he got out he was close to being a heavyweight !
He still had the burning desire to be a champion so he returned to training and came back as a welterweight.
He continued to be a good drawing card in New York but his career never really got back
on track. In 1946 he lost to Phil Palmer and later to Harry Hurst on two occasions. He dropped another
to Johnny Williams.
In 1947 Lenny gave it one last try at middleweight losing to the gifted Rocky Castellani at Madison
Square Garden and then in a rematch in Scranton.
Lenny had around 70 professional fights among fast company and was NEVER knocked out ! One
can only wonder if he had not been called off to war, would he have won the crown ? How proud he
must have been when his son Ray captured the W.B.A. version of the title in May of 1982.
The career of Ray Mancini has been extensively covered in the past. No sense in re-hashing it here.
All that can be said is that he did his father proud, inside and outside of the ring.
I had the pleasure of meeting Lenny Mancini at a fight show in Youngstown back in 1994. He was
very easy to approach and was nice enough to sign a photo I had of him in his fighting stance. I only
wish now I would have had more time to have talked to him.
Jim Amato

Henry Cooper: What British Boxing is all About
By Jim Amato
He came from a fighting family and by the time his boxing career ended in 1971, he was the most beloved British
boxer of all time. Only once did he challenge for the world's title, but he dominated the British heavyweight scene for
more than fifteen years. His popularity soared even more after retirement and the Queen of England knighted him. Sir
Henry Cooper was more than just a British fighter. He was a fine example of what British boxing is all about. Henry's
professional career started in September of 1954 and he won his first nine fights, including an eight round points win
over Joe Bygraves. In Henry's tenth bout, against Uber Bacilleri, he lost the first of many bouts due to an eye cut. He
would later avenge that loss.
The roller coaster career of Henry Cooper had now begun. He would drop a ten-rounder to Joe Erskine and stop Brian
London in one round, only to lose in five to Peter Bates. 1955 was a rough year for Henry as Bygraves kayoed
him for the British Empire title. Future world champion Ingemar Johansson then bombed him out. Joe Erskine then
outscored him for the British title.
Henry began to turn things around late in 1958 with a stoppage over Dick Richardson and points win over respected
American Zora Folley. He finally won the British and Empire titles by decision over Brian London in 1959. He halted
Gawie de Klerk in an Empire defense and defended both titles by a fifth round stoppage of Joe Erskine. In 1960
Henry scored important decision victories of Roy Harris and Alex Mitiff. He again defended his titles by a fifth round
stoppage of Erskine in March of 1961.
On December 5, 1961, Henry suffered a major setback when Folley kayoed him in the second round of their rematch.
He came back to again stop Erskine in 1962 and Dick Richardson in 1963, setting the stage for a match with the undefeated
Olympian Cassius Clay. The facts of Cooper's first bout with Clay have been well-documented. His left
hook knocked Clay down at the end of round four. A torn glove gave Clay time to recover. Cassius then came back
to cut and stop Henry in round five.
Cooper beat Brian London again, winning the vacant European title in the process. Six months later he was stripped
of that title due to an injury. Henry would win five of his next seven bouts, setting up a title shot and rematch against
Clay (Muhammad Ali).
The rematch was anti-climatic. Henry tried hard but Ali's punches again ripped the tender skin above Cooper's eye
forcing a stoppage. Four months later, ex title holder Floyd Patterson felled Henry. It was again time to rebuild. Henry
went back to retaining his British and Empire titles by defeating Jack Bodell and Billy Walker. He then regained
the European title winning on a disqualification from Karl Mildenberger.
In 1969 Henry was to be matched with World Boxing Association champion Jimmy Ellis. The fight fell through because
the British Boxing Board refused to recognize it as a world title fight. In a huff, Henry gave up the British and
Empire titles. Later Henry relinquished the European crown due to an injury.
Again in 1970 the Amazing E'nry came back to regain the British and Empire titles from Jack Bodell. Later he regained
the European crown by stopping Jose Urtain.
On March 16, 1971, Henry met upcoming Joe Bugner with all three titles at stake. After fifteen well-contested
rounds, Bugner was awarded a very close and controversial decision much to the dismay of Henry. Cooper never
boxed again.
I hope that Sir Henry is slated to be a guest at the Boxing Hall of Fame this year. His popularity has crossed the Atlantic.
A tribute to this fine fighter and even finer gentleman.

Frazier - Quarry I: 41 Years Since This Heavyweight Classic
By Jim Amato
June 23, 1969 at New York's Madison Square Garden, Joe Frazier met the popular Irish fighter, Jerry Quarry, for the
New York State recognized heavyweight title. Back in the day, the New York State Boxing Commission wielded quite
a bit of power. Commissioner Edwin Dooley wasted little time stripping Muhammad Ali of his heavyweight title when
Ali refused induction into the Armed Forces. The World Boxing Association did the same and they set up a tournament
to determine a new champion. Eight top contenders were selected, with unbeaten Joe Frazier being one of them. Frazier's
management declined the invitation, however. The eventual winner of the tourney was Jimmy Ellis, who defeated
Jerry Quarry in the finals.
The N.Y.S.A.C. offered Frazier a chance to fight Buster Mathis, who like Frazier, was undefeated. Mathis had defeated
Frazier twice in the amateur ranks. The winner would be the champion in New York and a few other states. Well, Frazier
met Big Buster and took him out in the eleventh to gain revenge and also win a piece of the heavyweight title.
Although the talented Jimmy Ellis held the more recognized WBA tilte, Frazier was considered by most as the best active
heavyweight. They would eventually meet to settle their differences.
The bout with Quarry would be considered as a measuring stick between Frazier and Ellis. Frazier had labored through
two decision wins over rugged Oscar Bonavena. In their first ten rounder, Bonavena had Frazier down twice but Frazier
rallied to get the verdict. Their second bout saw Frazier and Bonavena slug it out for fifteen tough rounds, with Frazier
again getting the decision. In between the two Frazier-Bonavena battles, Bonavena met Jimmy Ellis. In one of
Ellis' best career performances, he floored the granite jawed Bonavena twice to win a convincing decision. Based on
those bouts, Ellis seemed to have an edge on Frazier. In the Quarry bout, Frazier needed to make a statement.
Jerry Quarry was no pushover, however. He was ranked as one of the five best heavyweights in the world. He did a
number on Mathis just three months before meeting Frazier winning a lopsided twelve rounder. Not surprizingly, there
were a lot of people who thought Quarry had a real chance of winning.
The bout itself was non stop action, a real heavyweight slugfest. To his credit, Quarry always came to fight and you
never had to look for Joe Frazier. Early in the first round, it was toe to toe action. Knowing that both boxers could
bang, the fans were really enjoying this. Each fighter was rocked a bit but were still standing at the end of a terrific
round.
The next two rounds were more of the same, as they slugged it out on the inside. By round four, it was becoming apparent
the Quarry was fighting Frazier's fight. Frazier began breaking down Quarry who gamely fought back. As the
bout wore on, Quarry was cut and he was getting staggered by Frazier's famous left hook.
It ended in seven. Quarry had a severe cut and at this point Frazier had taken command. It was a gruelling fight,
though, and even in losing, Quarry won a ton of respect from this courageous performance.
Jerry Quarry is no longer with us and he was recently joined by his brother Mike Quarry, who was a fine boxer in his
own right. This was one of my favorite heavyweight battles. It is hard for me to believe it took place forty one years
ago.

CURTIS COKES
He may have been the best fighter in the welterweight division during the decade but he never had a chance to prove it
against Emile Griffith. Instead he labored in the back round, fighting and beating all comers. Only after Griffith moved
up to middleweight and allowed him to capture the vacated title did Curtis Cokes gain some long over due recognition.
Curtis who never had an amateur fight began his professional career in Midland, Texas on March 24, 1958 outscoring
Manuel Gonzalez over six rounds. Curtis and Manuel would get to know each other a lot better in years to come. Curtis
was born on June 15, 1937 in Dallas, Texas. He would go on to win his next ten fights including an eight rounder
over Gonzalez. Finally in April of 1959, one year after turning pro Curtis suffered his first career loss to none other
then Manuel Gonzalez. A no contest in a match with the talented Rip Randall set up a rematch. Curtis took out Randall
in the first round. Later in the year Curtis would drop a six round duke to Frankie Davis.
Cokes won four fights in 1960. In 1961 he moved up the ladder with big wins over Joe Miceli and Charley †Tombstone
†Smith. Cokes then dropped a decision in Mexico to Hilario Morales. He then fought a draw with the clever
Kenny Lane in Dallas. Back in Dallas two months later Curtis scored a huge win with a split decision over the highly
respected Luis Rodriguez. Cokes would then meet and again decision Manny Gonzalez but would lose points call to
Rodriguez in a return match.
Curtis would bounce back in 1962 with five straight wins including knockouts over Hilario Morales and the rugged
Rudolph Bent. Another trip to Mexico cost him another defeat. This times a decision to Manuel Sixto Alvarez. Four
more wins led to a 1963 clash at the Sunnyside Garden in New York against contender Jose Stable. Curtis lost a very
close decision. Cokes would then outpoint the very tough Stan Harrington. On May 1, 1964 Curtis travelled to the
Blue Horizon in Philadelphia to meet the dangerous Stan †Kitten †Hayward. He would suffer a major set back
as Hayward stopped Cokes in round four.
It was back to the drawing board for Curtis. Two decision wins over Al Andrews got him back on track but he dropped
a ten rounder to the slick Eddie Pace. On December 13, 1965 Curtis won the Southern Welterweight title with a twelve
round decision over Billy Collins. On July 6, 1966 Cokes stopped Luis Rodriguez one minute in to the fifteenth and
final round of an eliminination bout for the welterweight title vacated by Emile Griffith.
Seven weeks after his win over Rodriguez, Cokes met old rival Manuel Gonzalez for the WBA version of the welterweight
title. The battle took place in New Orleans. Curtis floored Gonzalez on his way to a lopsided decision and a
worldâ€s championship. In November Cokes outclassed Frenchman Jean Josselin to win universal recognition as
welterweight champion. Still many felt that Cokes was the champ only because Griffith had vacated the division. Curtis
would go on to prove himself a worthy champion.
In early 1967 Curtis would have three non-title affairs. First he drew with Francious Pavilla. He knocked out Ted
Whitfield but then the wily Gypsy Joe Harris outpointed Curtis. Finally Cokes defended his title halting Pavilla in a
return bout. Next came a very impressive stoppage of sharp contender Charlie Shipes. Two non-title wins in early
1968 over Josselin and Jimmy Lester led to a defense in Dallas against South African contender Willie Ludick. An inspired
Cokes flattened Ludick in the fifth round. Three non-title knockouts in South Africa followed including a repeat
performance over Ludick. Then came a one-sided title-retaining verdict over Ramon La Cruz.
Jose Napoles, a Cuban who had migrated to Mexico years before had long been considered one of the best fighters in
the business. Still he had never received a shot at a world title. Curtis Cokes was a proud man and a proud champion.
He felt he was the best welterweight in the world. He also knew that Napoles was a very worthy contender and that he
deserved a shot at the title. They met at the Forum in Inglewood, California on April 18, 1969. On that day Napoles
proved to the world that he was a special fighter. Jose out fought and battered the game Cokes throughout using a remarkable
jab and bone jarring combinations. Hopelessly behind on points Curtis did not answer the bell for round

fourteen and his belt was awarded to Napoles.
Maybe it was just a bad night but Curtis had to know so he went down to Mexico two months later to attempt to reclaim
his championship. Again Napoles proved to be too much for the game Cokes and the bout was ended after ten
rounds. Curtis would return seven months later as a full-fledged middleweight. Cokes had hoped that old rival Luis
Rodriguez would defeat middleweight king Nino Benvenuti when they met on November 22, 1969. Curtis was confident
that Rodriguez would give him a crack at the middleweight title. After ten rounds Rodriguez had Benvenuti
bleeding and bewildered and it looked like Luis was going to take the crown and then just like that, it was over. A
crashing left hook put Rodriguez flat on his back for the count as the bleeding Benvenuti retained his crown.
With little hope of a title shot Curtis still campaigned as a middleweight. He won four bouts but then drew with
Akronâ€s Fate Davis, a fighter he defeated seven months earlier. Cokes then lost decisions to Rafael Gutierrez and
Carlos Salinas on the West Coast. Then he lost to Elijah Makathini in South Africa. By now it was 1972 and Carlos
Monzon was firmly entrenched as middleweight king. There would be little interest in a bout between the great Monzon
and the aging Cokes. Curtis returned to South Africa and won decisions over Joseph Hali and Ezra Mzinyane and
then retired.
In 80 bouts Curtis put together a fine 62-14-3 record with one no contest. He won thirty fights by knockout. He was
stopped only three times. He met the best welterweights of his era other then Emile Griffith.Curtis was inducted into
the International Boxing Hall Of Fame in 2003 with the help of mutual friend Steve Canton, I was able to reach Mr.
Cokes and have a very nice conversation with him. I contacted him at his gym where he trains boxers. Curtis once
trained highly regarded heavyweights Ike Ibeabuchi and Kirk Johnson. He also guided Quincy Taylor to the middleweight
title. He also appeared in the boxing movie classic Fat City .
Curtis was extremely courteous and giving with his time. He said even though he and Manny Gonzalez met in the ring
numerous times, they were very good friends. Curtis had a tremendous amount of respect for Luis Rodriguez and despite
their battles they always maintained a friendly relationship. I asked him if he regretted never meeting Emile Griffith
in the ring. Curtis more or less said that he had no control on Emile’s decision to move up in weight. Did he feel
he could have defeated Emile? In his low key, respectful manner Mr.Cokes just stated he felt that he was capable of
beating any welterweight in the world during his prime but he had a great respect for Emile’s talent and that they are
friends. He said the knockout loss to Stan Hayward in 1964 took him by surprise but he just put it behind him and
moved on. He called Napoles a great fighter who he was just unable to overcome. Curtis really felt that if Rodriguez
had defeated Benvenuti, they would have met again. This time for the middleweight championship of the world.
I would like to thank Curtis Cokes for taking the time to speak to me one on one. I also like to thank promoter, trainer,
gym owner and jack-of-all-trades Steve Canton for helping me to contact Curtis.
Jim Amato

COME
TOGETHER

Closet Classic: Bob Foster vs Andy Kendall
Not too long ago one of my favorite writers, Ted Sares asked me if I could come up with some bouts as he described
them as “closet classics†. I came up with a few for Ted. Here recently I was making a tape for a friend. One of the
bouts was the 1969 light heavyweight title fight between Bob Foster and Andy Kendall. I have a mint copy of this fight
and what a war it was while it lasted.
This was Foster at the peak of his great career. What a fighter he was. Most people remember his devastating power but
what they tend to forget is that Bob had a terrific jab. He jabbed on even terms with Muhammad Ali when they met. He
even cut the “Greatestâ€
.
Andy Kendall was no slouch. He was a rough and rugged customer who met Don Fullmer, Bobo Olson, Eddie Cotton,
Roger Rouse and Eddie “Bossman†Jones on his way to this title shot. The ABC broadcast had Howard Cosell
and the late Willie Pep at ringside calling the action.
It was a war from the opening bell. The shorter Kendall tried to be aggressive and on working his way in he butted Bob
on a few occasions. In the ring Foster had little sense of humor and he hit Andy on the break drawing a warning from
the referee. Bob had a ten inch reach advantage and he wasted little time establishing his fine jab. Bob also launched
several punishing rights to Kendallâ€s head. Andy was game to the core as he absorbed the punishment and kept
moving forward.
Although Andy lost the first two rounds, he made a statement in round three. His aggression was beginning to pay off
and he finally got to Bob in round three. He rocked Foster on a couple of occasions and the fans loved it. Now it was a
fight!
Bob must have sensed this as round four began as he came out and took charge. There was a brutal exchange but Andy
got the worst of it and staggered into the ropes. Foster was right on him pouring in punch after punch. The courageous
Kendall tried to fight back but Foster was a great finisher. Finally Kendall sank to the canvas. His inner toughness
forced him to rise before the ten count but the referee had seen enough and waved the fight over. Foster had retained his
title but he knew he had been in a fight. You could see it in his eyes that he admired the stubborn courage of Andy Kendall.
Foster would fight on and forge his legend. Kendall would fight on too. He would meet men like Dick Tiger, Larry
Buck, Mike Quarry, Pat Oâ€Conner, Jorge Ahumada and Yaqui Lopez and will always be considered one of the best
light heavyweight contenders of the Bob Foster era.
Jim Amato
N e w s , V i e w s

What Should Have Been But Never Was : Cuevas
-vs- Palomino.
By Jim Amato
Pipino Cuevas has been inducted into the International Boxing Hall Of Fame. I struggled with this for a while.
Did he really deserve to get in ? There are so many deserving former boxers that you can make a strong case
for.
After wrestling with the matter of Pipino's induction I was able to come to terms with it. Why ? Because during
his tenure as champion he was a Holy Terror !!! That is why !
He did not just win fights. He broke bones. He was a devastating puncher with a wrecking ball left hook. He
left a trail of fractured jaws, etc... In a word, he was awesome !
Then Tommy Hearns exposed his chin and Roberto Duran followed suit. Herman Montes ended the legend but
give Pipino his due. During his prime he was feared !
He crushed legit opposition like Harold Weston Jr., Clyde Gray, Angel Espada and Pete Ranzany. He came to
fight and he had the classic kill or be killed mentality.
While Pipino was recognized as the W.B.A. titleholder, another popular West Coast boxer emerged to win the
W.B.C. version. He was Carlos Palomino and he won the crown with a spectacular KO of John H. Stracey. He
defended the crown with pride turning back the challenges of rugged Armando Muniz and the highly touted
Dave "Boy" Green.
Why did these two never meet ? This could have been a West Coast bonanza ! Who would have won if they
decided to trade hooks ? As mentioned, Pipino lost his crown to Hearns. Palomino was outfoxed by a wizard
named Wilfred Benitez and reliquished his title claim. Carlos was then outspeeded by a highly motivated Roberto
Duran. Carlos retired but returned. The saga ended years later in an ill fated comeback that accomplished
little.
Carlos Palomino has been inducted to the I.B.H.O.F . Did he deserve to get in ? YES !!! He was a class act who
was good for the sport. So was Cuevas. It's to bad that they ushered in the Golden Era of the 147 lb. division.
They had to make way for the Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Benitez era.
What a shame. Two world class champions who may only serve as footnotes.
Only time and history will tell us how Pipino and Carlos will be remembered. Being enshrined in the
I.B.H.O.F. is a wonderful start.
If there were no Sugar, Tommy, Roberto and Wilfred. Carlos and Pipino would have faced off. Who would
have won this "should have taken place" Super Bout ?
Give me two guys with heart, punch and talent and I say the "chin" will win. My choice is Carlos.
It's all about the beard !

Interview with Torsten Kanzmeier
Torsten Kanzmeier is the founder of his own style Lei Gong Nei Quan. He was a close
student to the legendary Helmut Barthel for 16 years. From what he learned in his
training years he extrapolated his own style. He was interviewed in november of 2008
in Holland by Guido Sleddens.
You where studying with Helmut Barthel, the founder of Tan Tien
Tschuean, and you also taught there. Can you talk a little bit about
him and your martial arts carreer
When I met Helmut Barthel for the first time when I was seventeen, it was
quite an occasion for me. Because he asked me if I wanted to study Kung fu, I
said yes and then he put his right hand softly on my chest and at the same
moment it seemed as if I was being kicked by a horse. It was so intense that I
fell on the floor gasping for air. Then he pulled me up, put his hand on my chest
again and took the pain away. With tears in my eyes I looked into his clear eyes
and he asked me again..”Do you still want to learn Kung fu?” and I said yes…
In this way I started learning with him. We were only a small group there.
About 6 or 7 people. On my first training I was very surprised because it was
completely different from how I had imagined it to be. I was a big fan of Bruce
Lee and all I knew about martial arts I had learned from magazines and movies.
When I heard of this teacher, I had to wait for about 6 months before I could
start training in his school. I had to ask over and over again before he let me in.
I thought Kung Fu was about learning forms and sequences of movement but
here it was always about dissolving ones own resistances and pressure and to
move from there. It was not like a traditional school. At that time Helmut was
always training himself. The style was still being developed.

After a while I started to understand how Helmut was practicing; he wanted to
become more free and more alive, without reacting to his opponent and
without using any muscle power, weight or swinging motions.
Helmut himself was always training with some senior students.
He was always exploring to find a way of movement that would be the most
effective with the use of least effort or movement. He would kick for example,
and then asked them if they could see it coming, and then try again and again
until his kick became unstoppable for them. Or he would practise throws with
the very least of effort possible.
Was it a hard training?
It was not too hard for me at that time. Helmut did a lot of fighting with his
Seniors.
They should attack him in whatever way they wanted; his goal was not to react
to it, but to stay completely relaxed and awake and to respond directly and
without any compromise with his own movement.
He always got very, very irritated when he noticed any muscle movement in
himself that came about from the attack of the other. Because that would
create a reference point or a striking point for the other. He always became
mad with himself when he did not control his own reflexes.
His movements where fast or slow but it was always incredibly effective.
He was always practising the same things over and over again; he was really so
into it and he let others attack him over and over until he had dissolved all his
own reflexes completely; he was and still is a perfectionist.
How did his way of training affect you?
I was very intrigued with his way; it was of course very unusual. I started to
realize that it is possible to fight and to win without needing force, mass or
bodysize. And it made me train in this way too. It was difficult for me but very
Interesting.
In the beginning of the 80ties when I was 20 years old, Helmut Barthel started
a school in Heide where about 20 people came who where also doing other
kind of martial arts. From then on I trained twice a week And then my teacher
started to work with me personally where I also had to attack him.
How did his technique work on you?
I got very scared because I was not able to do anything against him whatever I
did; he always had me completely under control. He hit me harder and threw
me harder so that I would get accustomed how to deal with pain.
We also learned some kind of Taiji set that was used as an instrument to
explore movement. How we could deal with our own pressure and resistance
in our own movement. Again we learned how to dissolve pressure.
We learned how to feel our body and to feel into our feet. I was mostly feeling
pain because it was so strange and impossible to do it.

How did you deal with the fact that you did not understand much?
Of course I asked how he did things and why he was so effective. But he always
responded by doing it to me again, and it was very painful so I started asking
the senior students. Because when I asked him how he hit, he always hit me!
The seniors told me “One cannot use any musclepower to hit, but you have to
let your weight sink from the feet and then move yourself from the hand”. The
movement should not be build on pressure and muscle but by controlled
falling of the limbs. Dropping the elbow will set the hand free so it can speed
Forwards.
The sticking hands training drill was a favourite one; in that drill it became very
clear when one is using muscle or pressure. As soon as I create some pressure
with my hand the other can feel my whole body and I cannot detach myself
from him. When my teacher did it I could only feel his very light hand, and
nothing else. When that hand hit me, it came from nowhere and weighed a
thousand tons… His hands felt always completely unattached from the rest of
his body. At the same time they where connected to his body. So it was
effective and controlled at the same time. As if a bullit was shot from a barrel
but at the same time still controlled by it. It’s hard to explain.
Could you compare it to other Martial Arts?
There were always karate and judo people who came to visit who wanted to
test it out. It was mostly to hard and to direct form them. Mostly they landed
on the ground without knowing what had happened to them. They had no idea
what was going on.
In 1984 the school went to another location and he had bought himself an old
Inn with a ballroom where more and more people went to receive his training.
For the training there were 40 or 50 people waiting until Helmut turned up
and he told them what to do. He was walking around, it was very relaxed and
people had fun. People really enjoyed the training and the exploration. And
more and more people from the whole of Germany came to see what was
going on. By that time he lived there with 12 or 13 people. It was like a
Commune.
People got more interested in exploring Kung fu in this way because it became
clear one could integrate it in ones life.
He started to ask me when I was going to come and live with him in the group.
How did you react to him asking?
First I did not want to. I had a house and a girlfriend, I did not see the reason
to go and live there. I was quite pleased with my development during training, it
was a very fun period. He asked me during one year over and over again when
I would come and live with him. And then at a certain point when my life was
not going very well, I decided to move in. It was spring 1985. I understood that
it was just about learning Kung fu; I never thought about work or the future or
anything. When I moved in I shared a room with 4 others. It was like entering
a Kung Fun monestary, and I endured all the inconveniences to be able to learn

this art; I really wanted to know.
At that time Helmut he had 6 people who came there at the same time to
learn and live there. And it became my job to teach that group. And that is
what I did every day for 12 hours.
What and how did you teach?
My teacher told me what to do with them and for how long. And then he came
by and corrected them how to do things. And that is were my real learning
started; it was again completely different from how I had imagined it to be.
I saw everday again and again over and over hours at end how the others did it
wrong. How they created pressure in themselves, how they used force. From
observing this the result was amazing; in myself during practice the resistance
became less. What I did was to feel Helmut’s movements more and more and
then I tried to recreated this feeling during my own training. And then things
started to work for me that did not work in the others.
At some point during the night Helmut took me out of my bed and I trained
together with him and a few others. It was the beginning of a new kind of
training. And this was just about fighting. It was just us, a small group. We
always had to attack him over and over. By any way we wanted. By ourselves
or together with one or two. In this way he integrated his principles inside
himself. This training was very hard for us and very painful. It was always very
serious and focussed. It were fierce fighting bouts that always took place in the
middle of the night.
How do you explain that he was able to always win ?
He was harder, faster and without any compromises; every technique he used
had incredible impact and we could not see it coming. But he could see
everything we did. It was like as if you were not fighting a human being because
it was impossible to influence him as you would influence a human being. To
me he felt like a grizzly bear with whom one was locked in a room. He
completely transformed into a being that could not be beaten in any way. It was
a very special training, that went on for years every night. We had bruises,
black eyes and so on, but we did not break anything. We all changed from this
training, phychologicaly.
After a while I could be without any compromise myself and I could switch of
fears and worries that would block me during a fight. I became much more in
control over myself to switch this “fighter identity” on and off.
It was physically and mentally a hard learning period. And I felt very privileged
to take part in it. Some others who wanted to join this group came to watch,
but then got so scared from what they saw that they almost shit their pants.
Helmut was able to do the things that where written in the Taiji classics. He
could move people from a distance, trow them against the wall, push them
without touching them physically. To me it felt like he took the control over
my body, my movements as if he was directing and controlling me with an
impuls that came from him. And although I did not want this, he managed to

overrule our will and make us do things we had not decided with our own will.
On a psychological level the night training was very intense. What came
towards us was an animal like controled uncompromising power of control.
What I learned from this is that our defenses that we use for ourselves, like
pulling back and trying to escape is in reality a trap. It is a trap because my
instinct to defend my life is being limited by me trying to escape the
confrontation. In an extreme situation where our life is threatened the only
way to act is to confront it head on. In this learning period I realized that
Helmut had us more under his control than we had ourselves under control.
We never studied any sequences of moves instead we learned how to
recognize our own limits and to cross those limits. That was the way we
became more proficient. It was always connected to dissolving our own
Resistances.
Another thing I learned from this is that I know the way how to teach others
to become mentally stronger. At the same time my movements became softer
and softer, and had more joy in life. I became more alive. It is strange when I
think about it but my Ego went down; I did not need to be strong all the time.
And I learned more about the principles of not using force. I saw the
importance of using focussed kinetic energy that was applicable in all directions
in any given moment; my teacher did not have any contradicting movements, it
was real unbroken movement so to speak. The same amount of control he had
over himself, he had over us and his obsessed exploration of these principles
made him unusually skilful.
What else did you learn from this time that you use now?
Well something I use in my work now is that I know that when you study
something and stay with it long enough one can learn things you would have
never believed possible. This intense time has really brought me to myself. I
came to experience and feel myself on a deep level. This has become to key to
what I am doing today. It is about being self-conciousness. And that is the key
to success; it has became for me much deeper than I understood then or
believed to be at that time.
As if some light has gone on and I have began to see.
The usual understanding of being self-concious is something very different from
what I mean with this experience. I am talking about becoming more self aware
through feeling. By working with this feeling awareness, my movements
become much more effective. When people train something they hope to gain
a feeling for the movements. And that works well to a certain extend. But I
discovered a way to come into ones feeling immediately and to then fill the
movements with feeling. In that way a completely new effectiveness and quality
of movement comes into existence.
What are you doing now, what kind of training do you give?
I am not so much interested in training certain patterns of movement, or form;
I rather work with the forms and patterns that people already know. I am

interested in making their particular art more effective. For this I use a specially
designed trainings program around unbroken movement where the individual
becomes more effective in the techniques they are already using.
Let me give you an example. When people are successful in their particular
sport we say they have a certain talent for it. A talent they always had. When
the trainer discovered this talent in someone they started to encourage the
person more. They did this by giving the individual more attention in an
empowering way. By being approved in this way, the individual became better.
My way is slightly different.
Now first of all, what is a talent? It is a special feeling one has for a certain
sport or motion in this case.
What I do is making people aware of the feeling that is the determining factor
for the talent. Then I bring them straight into the feeling so that their talent
increases. I do this by starting to use movement sequences that are fully aligned
with gravity, where they start to surrender to the force of gravity. As a result
the people I work with get more in touch with themselves, with their original
talent and they became more independent in bringing this talent or this passion
out into their practice. So through my work people get into a higher vibration,
they start to feel the joy of life more, and their movement becomes unbroken,
free and very effective. It is all about dissolving resistance, stress and pressure.
When we are talking about fighting arts how does this apply?
So what you see a lot in the martial arts is that people look angry or have an
aggressive seriousness about them. I understood that al this heaviness is
actually limiting the effectiveness or impact of their techniques. When you look
at Mike Tyson for example you could see in the beginning time when he was
enjoying his boxing more he was much more powerful and effective. There are
many examples like this. So by getting my people more into feel, there is a
whole transformation starting. Sometimes people tell me that they thought
feeling was something soft and weak, now they understand it is the source of
Power.
By working in this way I can increase the impact of a boxers punch for 40 to
50%. Some trainers tell me that a 10% increase is the highest possible in their
experience! Also the idea of reacting to the aggressor as an impulse for the
technique is not part of my system. In my opinion, it should never be about
reacting to what the other does…it should all be about your own unbroken
Movement.
That is something I learned from my teacher.
It is a very misunderstood concept in martial arts. People think like: “…if he
does this..I will do that.. They consider all kinds of possible scenario’s but they
forget to have control over their own movement, their own thinking. People
tend to look outside for answers, to feel safe. It is easier when some ‘authority’

tells you if you are doing it right. It is something to deeply contemplate. Who
dares to really look inside. You have to be a little crazy to do this (laughing). To
find your own reference points.
The whole area where we look at the impact our movements have on other
people is one of the main things I focus on. Using “feeling awareness” we are
actually working a lot with unconscious impulses that control your muscles. It
is also a way to help people to drop their resistances and fear and find their
own power.
With what kind of martial Artists do you work?
I work both with professionals and hobbyists from different styles and
backgrounds. I worked with Sascha Dimitrenko, Zolt Erdei, Sebastian Zbick,
Khoren Gevor all upcoming World and und European Boxing champignons .
I introduced Fred Royers and his kick boxers to my work and they were quite
impressed. For them this way of thinking and moving is challenging. They have
to start looking at all the adrenaline based tension of the actual fighting
situation. What they need, is they need to feel confident and believe that my
kind of effortless power is available, in any situation.
I also work with many Taiji people and other styles, Krav Maga and Systema,
judo , jiujitsu and so on.
As I said, many martial artists look outside themselves for the way to become
better or do something the way “it should be done”.
My work is to help people tap into their own power. It is not a good idea to
try to be someone else. Unbroken movement and having deep impact can be
done by anyone. You just have to look in the right place. For everyone I have
something that is bringing them a step further in their development. That’s
what I like about this work.
Thank you for the interview.

BOXING JEOPARDY
BY STEVE MAGUIRE
Historical
If you’ve ever watched a game of Jeopardy, you might agree with the notion
that the category of sports, let alone boxing, doesn’t appear often among the bl
tiled questions.
If boxing “does” make its way on to the blinking board, you can almost be
sure that the answer will be Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammad Ali or another
globally known fighter. The idea of an; “All Boxing” Jeopardy is fun, so
here it comes…be sure to answer in form of a question…
This fighter from Cuba, fought from 1928-1938 and held titles at
Featherweight and Junior Lightweight. When his career was over, he
returned to his country to open a gym and was awarded a government
pension for his outstanding representation…
There were 12,000 present in Tokyo to see him win the World Flyweight
Championship. His “windmill” type offense helped him register 55 wins
and earned him a spot in the International Boxing Hall of Fame…
After finally securing a shot at the Light Heavyweight title, this fighter was
victorious, however, he only walked away with $800 for his effort…he was
hoping to get “more”…
A unification fight between these two Lightweight Champions was on the
negotiating table at one time, yet it never materialized. It could have
happened in 1984, and Youngstown, Ohio, would have been a ideal place to
host the event…
He defended the WBA Featherweight title 19 times, and later became a
political member in Panama…
He was disqualified two times in a row against the same opponent, however,
still makes it near tops on most All Time, 154 pound lists…
He became Kyrgyzstan’s first world champion when he won the WBA
Lightweight title…as a big punching southpaw, he encountered vision
difficulties near the end of his career.
In 1994, he became the first former Heavyweight Champion to get defeated
by a fighter who was making his debut…

After winning the WBA Junior Middleweight title against Julio Cesar
Vazquez, he immediately vacated the belt at the post-press conference and
continued his reign as the WBC, 147 pound champ…
It was during this year in which the “Frawley Law” legalized boxing in
New York…
Final Jeopardy
Sadly, at 72 years old, this former Flyweight Champion was attacked by
several vagrants at a Cardiff railway station. He lived for four more years,
not knowing who he was or what he accomplished.

A HOTEL, A STABLE AND
A FIGHT TO REMEMBER
By Steve Maguire
The Atlantic hotel clerk, Tom McKay, quietly asked the two guests who were standing at
the desk, several specific questions. When McKay was satisfied with the answers he
was given, he directed the guests to a specific location within the hotel, then went back
to the desk. Two more people arrived and they were asked the same questions. They
too, were taken to the same location by McKay. The process continued; groups of two
arrived at the inn over a period of four hours and if they were up to par, according to
McKay, they were admitted to the same place…to wait. They weren’t waiting for a
room or a dinner table; they were waiting to be taken to a prize fight.
On November 16, 1887, a small stable in Revere, Massachusetts had been
prepared to host a World Lightweight title fight between Ireland’s Jack
McAuliffe and England’s, Jem Carney. However, the fight would need to
take place in secret, or there would be no fight at all. The local police were
well informed that the bout was indeed going to take place, however, the
authorities were having difficulty in finding out when and where. The
precautions taken by those who set up the fight were effective. The 126
pound McAuliffe, sported a record of 19-0-0 (KO 10). Most of his prior
fights had taken place in New York and in 1886, with a win over Billy
Frazier, McAuliffe was seen as the World Lightweight Champion.
Carney’s numbers, going into the fight, were 11-3-2 (KO 2). At 131
pounds, he was regarded by many as the British Lightweight Titlist.
Although the people continuing to arrive at the hotel were
being screened without problems, there was still more to do in order to get
the fight underway.
The clock was approaching midnight when McKay suddenly lit a lantern
and motioned for the crowd inside to follow him. The group eagerly went
out the back entrance and began a short walk toward a stable, nearby. Once
they arrived at the barn, they noticed a small Salvation Army band playing
at the entrance; a clever move by those in the know, to keep the police off
track. Once the audience was settled inside the shack, the fight was finally
on.
McAuliffe took control of the contest for the first six rounds, however,
Carney scored a knockdown in seven. The fight was an active one as
McAuliffe, after cutting Carney in round 10, was emerging as the victor by
round 20, yet the Irishman began to tire as the bout moved towards round
30. Incredibly, the two combatants fought on until round 40 and at the
arrival of an astonishing round 70, the fighters were still willing to battle.
During that round, Carney floored McAuliffe, however the incident was
tainted by McAuliffe’s seconds rushing in to aid their fighter. After a small
melee, the bout moved on. McAuliffe was dropped once again, in round
74, and this time, after an additional interference, McKay, fearful of the
police, urged the referee to consider stopping the bout. The request was
granted and the final result rendered was a draw.

The site was now London, 27 years later. Old rivals McAuliffe and Carney
stood across from each other in a ring, ready to re-enact their epic battle
which had taken place inside a small stable years earlier. Wearing
oversized gloves, the fighters portrayed what occurred in 1887 very well, to
the appeasement of those in attendance. Both McAuliffe and Carney are
now in the International Boxing Hall of Fame… if only more could have
witnessed their wonderful battle behind the Atlantic Hotel.

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