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Page 4 House of Representatives Friday, 10 February 2017 Mr COLEMAN: How long will that whole process take? I guess when you move in you will have the space for the 700, but presumably you will not have the 700 people straightaway. Brig. Beutel: That is correct. My understanding is that there is a two-year— Mr Scotton: It is a four-year time frame. Mr COLEMAN: So when you move in at the start of next year it will be more like 300 or 400? Mr Scotton: Not completely. At the moment, because we operate in this high-security environment, a number of organisations, such as the Computer Emergency Response Team, the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, do not have a lot of cleared staff at that high level of classification. So they will be able to relocate staff who work elsewhere into the new facility at that lower level. Mr COLEMAN: What happens with those 100 people you have elsewhere? Does that achieve any savings for those facilities in terms of leases or anything like that? Or will they still lease the same amount of space for fewer people? Mr Scotton: I could not speak on behalf of any other agencies involved. Each of those agencies I just mentioned has also identified staff growth under the Cyber Security Strategy so they will be recruiting additional people as well. Mr COLEMAN: Just to be clear: there are 260 people now who are in the city and there are 100 people who are elsewhere who are part of the centre. Are they part of the centre now or not? Mr Scotton: They perform work on behalf of the centre; they just are not physically located there. Mr COLEMAN: Okay. So they are all going to go to the new facility when it opens— Mr Scotton: Yes. Mr COLEMAN: and therefore come out of wherever it is they are now, and you are not sure whether or not there are any savings for government in them— Mr Scotton: They are spread across four different organisations. Mr COLEMAN: Yes, but you do not know. Mr Scotton: I can't. Mr Rees: Mr Coleman, in my discussions with the agencies in looking at how we are going to stage them moving from those sites, they have identified already where those people are coming from. They want them out as soon as possible so that they can reallocate that to staff that are already there, or in areas that they want to recruit and expand into. So it is not just cyber that the expansion is happening; it is happening in other areas within the various agencies. They need that space to then re-use for that purpose. Mr COLEMAN: Because it would be fair to say that agencies in this space, broadly, are probably growing faster than the public sector as a whole. Brig. Beutel: Perhaps, there is just one point that I would make—and Mr Rees may be able to confirm: when we are talking of 100 personnel across these other agencies, which are other large agencies, I cannot give you an exact percentage but I would assume that it is a very low percentage of the total numbers across all those— Mr COLEMAN: Sure. If it is 100 people, you need to redevelop for the 100 people. One of the benefits, obviously, as I understand it, is its capacity. The fact that it is not top secret and, therefore, there is the— Brig. Beutel: There are levels that will be at the highest level. Mr COLEMAN: Sorry—the entire building is not and, therefore, there is— Brig. Beutel: No. Mr COLEMAN: For me as a layperson, it almost sounds a bit counterintuitive in the sense that you want this to be. So can you just elaborate on that a bit more? I think what you are saying is that, whilst there is a nucleus of this which is very much top secret, it is also important to be able to interact with other groups. Is that right? Mr Scotton: If we are talking about the cyber security and the role, in particular, that ASD plays, we are concerned with the security of Australian government networks, most of which are connected to the internet. Most of the threats to those networks come via the internet. A lot of the work we do in that space does not require that—we are not working at a highest level of classification. We are working with internet connected systems; the data they contain are not necessarily top secret. We also perform a range of other services, like the development of policy, the certification of cloud services, evaluating security products. Most of those activities do not require that level of classification. To some extent, the reason that has happened to date is because as a part of ASD we PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
Friday, 10 February 2017 JOINT Page 5 have always lived in a top-secret organisation. But the cyber security mission, as it has evolved over the last decade, increasingly large proportions of that work do not require that level of protection. Mr COLEMAN: And you are talking about things like visiting academics and businesses and various entities that might come to the centre and collaborate on individual projects. Is that how it works? Mr Scotton: Indeed. At the moment, there are many industries that provide very similar types of services as what ASD provides. Increasingly, we are finding ourselves having to work with industry around those services. So whether ASD undertakes a certain activity or whether it is done by a commercial provider under our guidance, that is one way that we are managing to leverage industry to meet the demand for cyber security services. Mr COLEMAN: And just in terms of any community feedback that you have had or any comments from the public about this proposal— Brig. Beutel: We undertook—in accordance with most of our Defence procedures—community consultation, and the outcomes of that have been advised formally to the committee. So written correspondence, providing information on the brief and offering briefings were provided to the local ACT government. In this case, we also wrote to the senators within the ACT, because it being a smaller territory. We normally would not do that for our other projects. And I think we provided one briefing, just recently, for Senator Seselja. No issues were raised there. We also undertook a public information centre out at Brindabella Park in mid-December. We can get you the exact dates for that; it is in the letter provided. No-one showed up to that community information session. At the moment there have been no risks or issues identified in relation to this proposal. Mr COLEMAN: On Senator Gallacher's comments about the cost of metreage and the break-up between the contribution of high security versus regular office space, I think that is something we should explore. But, as I understand it, we are going to do that later. So we look forward to that. Brig. Beutel: We will be able to do that, Mr Coleman, in the in-camera hearing. Senator GALLACHER: Can I just ask one question on Mr Coleman's question? Is there expertise that you are missing out on which does not need a security clearance? Are there hackers out there you can study or use? Can you stress their stuff? Is it like a movie—are you going to bring in people to try to break a few systems for practice? Is that what you do? Mr Scotton: I would not put it like that; in fact, all the staff that ASD will recruit will still go through a security clearance process. At the moment, one of our big issues for recruitment is that to go through that process can be quite lengthy and the demand for specialists with those skills is so great. Many of them are not prepared to wait to get a security clearance. So having a space where they can perform work at a lower level of classification is going to help with our task of recruiting and meeting those growth targets. Brig. Beutel: I think it may be important to note here that we are proposing to phase the build-up of capability at Brindabella Park from an initial operating capability proposed, subject to parliamentary approval in March, by June 2017, and then a final operating capability in December 2017. We are looking at an IOC and a focus on just the unclassified areas—Mr Scotton can correct me if I am wrong—is because of a lack in the capability at the moment and what is not achievable at the moment because of the security aspects are in the Ben Chifley Building. So that drives why we have staged the development of the operational capability. CHAIR: Or, to put it another way, in order to increase the capability of the Australian Signals Directorate you need to have a mechanism so that you can recruit people and they can then participate in the ASD without the top secret classification whilst they go through the necessary processes to get that classification. That is currently absent at the moment because the Ben Chifley Building only allows top security access. Is that a correct summation? Mr Scotton: Yes. CHAIR: The government is committed to trying to consolidate its office space, not just around Canberra but in other capital cities. We previously heard that the old ASIO building in Russell had been examined as a possible site, but there were some significant costs involved in bringing that to a suitable level. Can you just speak briefly to that? What other sites around Canberra were explored in addition to the old ASIO building, if any? Mr Mapletoft: The old ASIO building is also known as R9 in Russell. We did explore that as an option. There was a length assessment done on the state of the building. It was not a tick-and-flick exercise; it was a complete building survey, and a comprehensive report was issued. CHAIR: Is that because that would have been your preferred option if it did come in at an equivalent or better cost scenario? PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
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