MIROSLAV SKOKO Split - Slobodan Praljak, general

MIROSLAV SKOKO
Split
July 2005,
The interview was recorded; the tape is marked as code
mskoko
12,3 MB
Duration 38:39
The interview was taken in Split, in hotel «President»

There, I have turned it on. To begin with, could you please introduce
yourself? This means, your name, surname, date and place of birth, the job
you were doing. Where were you at the beginning of the war?
I'm Miroslav Skoko, a retired lieutenant of the Croatian Army. During the
beginning of the Croatian War for Independence, I was chief of the Intelligence
Service in the 4th brigade Croatian National Guard, that is, later 4th guard’s
brigade. After that function I was an assistant commander for the Croatian Navy
for the Intelligent Service. I was born 8th August, 1936 in Ljubuški. I believe it’s
only a thesis/assumption of aggression in Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially
joining with criminal alliances, it's absurd. It has by all means no connection with
common sense. It has no connection with reality. Everyone, they don’t have to
mean well, can only be realistic, to understand …
Only informed, is that correct?
Only the informed will realize that we, through various aids we offered to the
neighbouring country Bosnia and Herzegovina, were truly forced. But, even minimal
military tactics not to go into the strategy required us to be present in that area. It is
common sense that Split could not defend itself from Split and Klis. It has to be
minimal; it’s the basics the students learn in first year of Military school, that he has to
defend himself from at least Livno. If we can’t go into it now, there is a sequence,
many details that show that we weren’t there to harm them in any way but to help them.
When you say many details – I meet with those details almost everyday, and
I assume you also know about these details. That is, concretely how did we
help? What was happening in the area of Split – in the area where you were
– so we can conclude that you helped, that aid was given to the neighbouring
country?

I can only give some concrete details from this area. For example, in… on a daily basis
individuals were arriving, even whole families, who were fleeing from the prosecution
and terror which they suffered in Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the beginning they were
from the area of Herzegovina, after and much later from the whole of Bosnia and
Herzegovina. They were arriving here and we were taking care of them,
accommodating them with families, even in various… in hotels, in retreats and so
forth. They were accommodated for and were materially taken care of in all other
possible ways. Then, there also existed formal associations, organizations that solely
took care of collections. That is distributing aid that was arriving from around the
world… distribution and aid in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Then, I also know it existed in
the framework of the Croatian Army that is the Croatian Air Force, there were a group
of pilots who signed on and stood on the side of Croatian defence. They left so call JNA
and came to us, who with helicopters were actually quite often flying into Bosnia and
Herzegovina and rescuing the injured. The sick and injured members of their defence,
were accommodated, treated and rehabilitated in hospitals in Split and in these
rehabilitation canters. I also know that through various visions aid was taken to them.
Actually, I don’t know what wasn’t taken to them. Most likely judging by… and
armament, ammunition, equipment and so forth for the defence of Bosnia and
Herzegovina.
Armament? Ammunition? Military equipment?
True. Where private vehicles are concerned I know that vans were used. I also know
that they drove trucks, even tugs, do you understand, they were accepted where they
imagined so that it would go to a fiction border which they imagined.
Later they were followed so they could safely arrive at their destination in Bosnia and
Herzegovina. I can give concrete examples from the Croatian War for Independence
when I was on the southern battlefield. I don’t know, I won’t say the name of the person
who came to me during the Chetnik offence from eastern Herzegovina towards Mostar

that is towards the left side of the Neretva bank. A man came to me during the night.
Somewhere after midnight and he said to me that he is taking a thousand refugees,
women and children. He asked me if I could …
To lead them from where, to where?
He led them from East Herzegovina, as we said, Hodovska plateau. There you have
Muslim villages, towns. He led them mainly because the Chetniks were attacking East
Herzegovina and demolishing everything in front of them. They were killing,
demolishing, burning and so forth. Can we accept them? That is, to save them.
When did it happen?
It was in 1992. As an assistant commander to the 4 th Guards brigade I allowed it, of
course, with the approval of my commander. I allowed him. Thousands of women
and children were taken to…
Why don’t you want to tell me his name? Do you think he won’t confirm the
story?
He probably would. His … Meho
Žujo.
Meho Žujo.
Write it down. Meho Žujo bought and asked and begged me. We had accepted them.
Firstly, they were in the area of …
Meho Žujo. Excuse me, Meho Žujo what was he then?
I don’t know. He was some kind of organiser for defence in that area.

Did you otherwise collaborate with him? Was there some kind of
cooperation during that time?
Well, we could say that was a form of cooperation. He also had there a group of
armed people and he said that they were at our disposal. If we wanted to accept them
in our regime for defence, do you understand? But there is more. He was talking
about a few hundred. There is also that many without weapons. If we give them
weapons and arm them they will be in the regime of our army. At that time, we
considered them part of our reserves. I was always insistent with my commander that
they were our reserves. If it gets difficult we can…
There were women, children?
Yes.
Elderly?
True. They were saved. First of all, we, because the Chetniks during that time
used airplanes, mainly for bombing… They were prepared, I didn’t go back
later because I was busy with other work, but I know they were taken to safety
in some kind of tunnel. Some… maybe you can dig one out where, somewhere
below in the area of Gabel or Metković, on the left bank of Neretva. The
people fleeing were taken there. Later they were dispersed somewhere on the coast,
islands down… I know that that group, most of them went on Pelješac. To Trpanj
or I don’t know other places there. That is one example. Then, I was on the
southern battlefield when we took the Military base in Orahovina in Čapljina.
During that time, Mr. Slobodan Praljak, was a general, commander there.
Was that difficult?
Excuse me?

Was taking over the army base in Čapljina difficult?
It was very difficult. We had a lot of pressure from huge enemy forces from the
East, especially Montenegro. But, that was one group, one bigger group of
command who were attacking and who had a strategic aim to emerge on the left
bank of Neretva. Take over the peninsula of Pelješac and the harbour of Ploče. On
a daily bases they were showing us their aim, letting us know. Through my
interception service who was taping at the time, had it already formed in good
condition, we had information as they called it, that in question was a matter of days
when they will join with theirs. Theirs, in talking marks, were three orthodox villages
on the left bank of Neretva. They were Pribilovac, Tasovčić and Klepci. They called
them theirs. And on that direction from the area of Stoca, from the area by the village
of Masline, through the village of Bačnik and Podbačnik they were actually attacking
in that direction to connect with theirs as they were saying, where they had strong
anchorage. They also armed their domestic local citizens. They were well armed.
They were even armed with artillery, quite normal. We also found there VVR rocket
mortars besides other things *** artillery and mine throwers 80, 120 milometer not
to mention. They were very strong due to their… Because it was actually their last
attempt to achieve their strategic aims. Of course, we came out there.
After that came operation Neretva, isn’t that so?
Yes. We came out there…
****
They were wasted. They were firstly eliminated there because it was their focal point.
That is, that triangle Pribilovcići, Tasovčići and Klepci…! Then they were suppressed

towards the northern top, Pjesci, Bivolje Brdo and so forth, by the left bank of
Neretva. And the whole time we were holding in Gabel, that is Metković, holding our
anti-armour artillery so that they couldn’t infiltrate with artillery means, tanks, so they
couldn’t penetrate into Ploče.
I will just stop you for a moment in this section. I would like to ask you
the following. Could you tell me exactly, in conquering the military
base in Čapljina, how was Praljak participating, could you recall some
details? How did it look? And how did Praljak function at the time?
What did he do?
First of all… We noticed that Čapljina for them, which are for you, for you this,
their triangle below, our, as they called it… We noticed it was very important for
them. Actually, as you say it in military terms, was their strategic aim. We also, of
course, where ever we could, cooperated with HVO, Croatian Council for BiH
Defense. We believed at the time, that it was a unique command. Unique. You have
to say it. For instance, my spy/patroller from the brigade whom I was a commander
to regularly went out there on patrol, passively patrolling, sometimes forcefully
patrolling, and provoking enemies. To see what they have there. One of my soldiers
proved himself in these operations, and they practically took him from me in
Čapljina. Praljak took him. That was Antun Luburić.
And him?
Yes. They practically took
him…

They took him?
Yes. And he later… of course Praljak later requested for him, and that Primorac
and I don’t know who else was there, Pero Marković…
Which, Mojmir?
Mojmir Primorac, the head of defence, something like that. They asked us if he
could be transferred. Little Luburić was a courageous soldier, genuine. After a few
operations… I had allowed it and he stayed there. We were on top of things
with these happenings. We were always monitoring Čapljina. We sent there
the PZO (Anti-Aircraft Defence) squad, Milan Perković and the ones that
were there, what was his name, Šurman, *** above Čapljina. They set up
there a PZO defence. In return, of course, when Grabovina was taken Praljak
came straight to Jeljić, commander of the brigade, to me and notified us of taking
over the army base and what was taken from there. There were lot things there.
Due to bad coordination, not everything was taken, … in the Gabela bunker,
armament, military gear. There were enormous amounts. We didn’t manage to
take everything because of bad coordination. Or should I say differently. Hence,
Praljak… we then had an argument over it. We didn’t allow it that it was some
tank, is it? He took some tanks from the army base. He said they needed it and it
was needed over there and so forth. Good. But I knew intelligence spots
functioned there, that were run by the Muslims on the relation Čapljina – Mostar.
Dobro.

I can’t remember the names now… I can’t remember the name of the
deputy lieutenant who held *** Muslinović or something like that.
Were you cooperating then?
Excuse me?
Was there cooperation between you?
With who?
With Muslims in 1992.
Yes, Yes. I say that we almost considered Žujin’s group as our reserves.
Did you later arm them?
I don’t know that. It is not known to me. I don’t know… later… it was already
spring of 1992… We headed on because it was solved, our 4 th battalion with
Damir Krstičević forced Buna, over there, Blaga and Buna, is it? Then the
Chetniks were definitely thrown back. And we started off. 4 th brigade started
of towards the bottom southward, from Hutova through Lišća. It was then
that the situation was solved on the southern battlefield. Četniks were
displaced, and they left the whole of Popovo Polje, and were only in the
Dubrovnik hinterland. Then our brigade continued. When Golubov kamen
was liberated *** up to the Dubrovnik river, then they definitely fled. ** and
then they went to negotiate with the English gunboat. It was then definitely
decided to withdraw from the Dubrovnik hinterland. Actually, to withdraw
from the area of Croatia.

Apart from Prevlaka, this was later solved. That is all I can remember
regarding concrete details concerning general Praljak and cooperation with the
Muslims.
A moment ago while we were talking I mentioned to you
armament was systematically transferred, all military needs
through Croatia or from Croatia into Bosnia. They were
transferred via planes, there were also convoys. I’m interested
in knowing more about it? In what way were they arriving?
Humanitarian aide was arriving and inside was armament.
Yes.
Hence, it is completely open, it is known and it is known to me. I am
interested if you have any information about that, that is did these convoys,
how did they transfer them? How did they go through this area?
I don’t know concrete details. In general I know that the convoys from…
were followed to the border by our services.
Our army had followed them?
Our army had followed them. Yes. And then were accepted by them, HVO. Let
us say, the brigade “Stjepan Radić”, they had their headquarters in Ljubuški. I
know this through their chief of intelligence service that they accepted the
convoys after the border and followed them, made sure they arrived safely. It is
true that this, what was being transported, what was bought there they dealt out.
The key is, how did they deal it out…
Good.

I don’t know that but I do know that HVO had benefited from it. They
received part of it. But a majority of it, because enormous amounts were
arriving was given to them, how they called themselves? Army…
Army BIH.
Army BIH.
Firstly they were territorial defence, then later…
Later they were Army BIH.
True.
And they were receiving that regularly.
Do you know how long it lasted? Znate li vi koliko dugo je to trajalo?
That form of help.
No, I’m not sure. I can’t recall it. Hence, what is… I think was until the total
deterioration of the relationship that is it continued the whole time to that point.
Tell me, Mevludin Durgutović?
I don’t know who it is.
That man in the known situation in Split when he went on to the tank,
when the machinegun was taken from the tank. Do you remember
that situation? He was tying together a Muslim and Croatian flag,
Mevludin Durgutović, he is one of the founders of HDZ Split, and was

later in the Crisis headquarters in Split, for aid for refugees. He
worked for IGASU. He told me they were exporting weapons to
Bosnia. And amongst other things, that they were receiving weapon
from the Croatian Army, from bunkers of the Croatian Army. He
mentioned people who were giving the weapons and he said there
were never problems.
Of course!
What do you know about that? Do you know how it functioned?
No, no. I don’t know. Usually, there were always, their Muslims from BH,
they were always present through their representatives. Always there,
simply said, someone hung around who was…
Who was it?
I don’t know their names now. But I know that… that I can’t remember, that
name. But I know that in hotel Park there was always a man who was in charge,
who coordinated the aide in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Maybe I have his name
somewhere in my papers, but I can’t remember like this.
Lets say, Tešija Josip?
Yes, I know Tešija.
Tešija died, is that true?
Tešija died.

What was Tešija?
He worked in the Split Shipyard, established was a special, at the time when
sections were formed in the national defence through local communities, in the
Split shipyard was formed the so called “Škverski battalion”. So, in local jargon,
the shipyard was called “Škver”. Then “Škverski battalion”, do you understand,
where later came into existence 158 th brigade, with deceased Stipe Bilokapić as a
commander. But, in the command of the Škverske battalion there was also
deceased Tešija and Mirko Malenica… Stipe. Stipe Bilokapić.
Stipe Bilokapić.
He was killed.
What is Grabo called? Grabo?
Drago,
Drago, is that so? Or Davor?
No, Tešija is Josip.
Tešija Josip. Stipe Bilokapić.
And Mirko Malenica,
Mirko Malenica.
I remember them three.

Durgutović has some very interesting documentation. He relinquished
them to me and there begins a very interesting story about how that
functioned. Very interesting story and has documentation which fits in
nicely. Good, what else actually existed here, in the sense of
cooperation which we can say was continued?
I don’t know. I was more concerned about pure military problems. That is, the
military intelligence service. I had to, task and aim, collect as much information
about our enemies, their amounts, their formation, about …
At one stage the Muslims were enemies – when there was an open
conflict with them and when people were dying. Therefore, we’re
talking about the year 1993. Wasn’t that at the same time a job for
you?
Well yes. It was but I was at the time in therefore… The conflict with
Muslims escalated I should actually say began in 1993. Isn’t that true?
It’s true. In 1993, but a little earlier.
But that, the escalation, I was already in the Croatian Navy. So maybe
for that reason I can’t remember some things closely, clearly. But, it’s
evident, that no one emerged more then Praljak. Against who? Against
Vlaho. With the help of Alaha...
I believe that Praljak’s defence in Hague will be one of the best
defences. One of the best, one of the most thoroughly prepared
defences and because of that I am now sitting here before you
and...

The little bit that is known to me, the bit that I know, he collected masses of things,
such as video materials, also audio, also written, also… there truly is an abundance,
an abundance of things. In respect to that I can’t believe that they will refuse him a
pen, how do you say. I believe many will be different because of that ****. So, I
believe it’s logical that everything while they weren’t actually displaced from
eastern Bosnia and Sandžak, massively fled, that actually there were no problems
here, problems between Croats and Muslims. When they arrived there, when they
lost their area their, and then were looking for a vital location here – then they
simply also put pressure on Croats, do you understand? A conflict came about. And
that is the basic foundation, reason why a conflict came about between Muslims,
and of course later when they became enemies... Now, who did where disarm who,
who took where a safer position, that is the question.
True.
Yes. They are details. That is a question of tactics, is that so?
But, it is interesting to know that during the time of conflict there flights
and supplies for Muslims through Pleso, through Zagreb, I mean through
Rijeka and Pula.
Yes. It’s interesting, because it’s not really logical. Wipe this out later if it, if it
doesn’t fit in or if it’s not proper. I believe money was in question.
It was absolutely money in question.
It is difficult to explain in any other way that we after that, after those bloody
battles, with them and continued to allow aide for them, more so because we
weren’t endangered by the Serbs anymore.

But take note of this, «allowing aide to pass through » is one thing. But
allowing armament is something else.
Thank God.
Therefore, we are sending armament…
I was referring to armament, ammunition, military equipment. Do you
understand? The ones they were using on us.
The baby food in powder form, they were putting bullets. **** it’s
how it goes to Sarajevo. It’s how it goes to Srebrenica. It’s how…
Unfortunately it came to… The time came to chastening our aims. I believe
that.
Tell me, we have spoken a bit now, can you remember anything else from
that time? I would like to meet up with you again if you remember
something – even though I assume that you will slip from me, that after
this you won’t want to meet with me again. But, it’s fine. Tell me, before
you slip from me, do you know any people who know about these things
who could talk more about it? Who would you recommend to me as a
collocutor?
You know how to talk very nicely and it could be your strong weapon. And you
would go there to talk?
I go everywhere.
Everywhere, you mean?

You just give it to me ...
Did you talk to Žarko Keža? You didn’t?
But you would recommend him?
Yes. I don’t know how to get to him? I lost the contact.
Where is he now?
He is... most likely also retired. But, he is in Ljubuški, I think. He was the head of
the Intelligence Service in Ljubuški, and then further up … to the top of HVO. He
most likely has bulk information. He has concrete information like this that will fit
in with your story. That is, that will complete the skeleton. Try to find him.
Good, give me another name.
Žarko Keža.
Who else would you recommend? Who else do you think could talk about
these things? Who knows, who saw, that participated? Well, these sorts of
people are interesting to me. Forget those who were sitting in offices and
who don’t know what happened…
I don’t know, I… Firstly, I now have your number, you will keep this number?
You won’t change it.

I won’t change it. And you are promising me that you will call me on
that mobile?
I will, I will. Why not?
Are you sick of the microphone?
Of course, turn it off.
Too turn it off? Here... it was enough.
Interviewer: Lada Puljizević
Formed transcription: Zdenka Omrčen
July 2005.

I, the undersigned, Miroslav Skoko, state that in July 2005, of my own free will, I gave a
statement for the Defence of General Slobodan PRALJAK about events in which I participated
and which are connected to the wartime events in the Republic of Croatia. I agree that my
statement be used in proceedings before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former
Yugoslavia and that it be made public. I am willing to testify in the proceedings before the
ICTY against Slobodan PRALJAK in the case Prosecutor versus PRLIĆ et al.
I state that before giving and certifying this statement to the Defence of General PRALJAK I
was warned that I had to speak the truth and that an untruthful statement is a criminal offence
under the Penal Law of the Republic of Croatia and the rules of the ICTY.
I state that I have understood these warnings and that everything I said in my statement is true
and correct to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
I have read the statement through carefully and it corresponds in its entirety to what I stated.
(I corrected the errors that had crept in when the statement was being written out in my own
hand as I was reading it.) I signed the written text of the statement in my own hand.
/signed/