CCC Hearings re FMG Railway - Yindjibarndi Aboriginal Corporation

EXTRACT 

WESTERN AUSTRALIAN CORRUPTION & CRIME 

COMMISSION (CCC) HEARING 

with Labour Party MP John Bowler 

regarding FMG’s railway through the Woodstock Abydos Aboriginal 

Reserve. 

____________________________ 

HOW POWER & PRIVILEGE WORK IN THE ‘STATE OF MINING’ 

Over several months in 2006 the Palyku people pleaded with the Carpenter Labour 

Government and its ministers to spare country lying within the Woodstock Abydos 

Aboriginal Reserve – an area of large granite hills 200 kilometres south of Port Hedland that 

had been especially protected for its tens of thousands of ancient rock engravings. 

Instead, WA’s Minister for Indigenous Affairs, Sheila McHale, used her power to 

overturn the Protected Area Status of the Reserve in order to allow the building of a railway 

line for the Fortescue Metals Group. 

While the Palyku were ignored, the Corruption & Crime Commission hearing with 

Minister for Resources, John Bowler, describes how lobbyists, ex Labour Premier Brian Burke 

and ex Labour Minister Julian Grill, had the ear of Government at its highest levels, and how 

they worked through Minister Bowler to advocate for FMG’s railway through this ‘protected’ 

Reserve. 

This transcript provides a behind-‐the-‐scenes understanding of how and why 

Aboriginal heritage has been repeatedly trashed in the face of mining industry pressure in 

Western Australia. This use of ‘discretionary power’ by the Minister for Indigenous Affairs 

against the cultural interests of Aboriginal people has become routine in Western Australia. 

____________________________ 

27 February 2007 

The Commissioner: Yes, can I ask you now some questions, Mr. Bowler, about FMG. 

Now, I understood you to say a moment or two ago that there was a number of issues 

that arose in respect of FMG. Is that right? 

Mr. Bowler: That's correct. 

The Commissioner: Would it be fair to say that the number of issues raised with you on 

behalf of FMG became somewhat troubling in the sense that they were irritating, there 

was a lot of them? 

Mr. Bowler: Our office had a saying - "the FMG Friday crisis" that usually had to be fixed 

up before Monday otherwise there'd be all hell to play. Occasionally we got Friday crises 

on other days of the week as well. I've got to say just quickly an overview, Mr. 

Commissioner, of FMG. This was a multi billion dollar project that has under my 

CCC Hearing with John Bowler p1/23

guidance and help, along with other ministers, been driven quicker than anyone could 

imagine. Andrew Forrest drove it, pushed everyone, pushed his staff, and sometimes we 

helped him along as quick as we could. I don't see anything wrong with that. That is my 

job as a minister, to help people, and if I can cut a corner - maybe it's my attitude to do 

so, that's my natural instinct and it might get me into trouble sometimes, but that's my 

natural instinct to do so. 

The Commissioner: Right. 

Mr. Hall: You understood that Mr. Grill and Mr. Burke were acting as lobbyists for FMG? 

Mr. Bowler: Mr. Grill. 

Mr. Hall: Just Mr. Grill? 

Mr. Bowler: I - I thought it was just Mr. Grill. 

Mr. Hall: Right? 

Mr. Bowler: I've found out since that there was - they were linked together on all 

projects. I thought Julian Grill had some projects and Brian Burke had others and - but 

obviously now they're together on everything. 

Mr. Hall: Right, and what matters did they seek to lobby you about in respect of FMG? 

Mr. Bowler: As I say to you, there was about a weekly issue so - but to paraphrase it all, 

you'd say the approvals processes. 

Mr. Hall: In that regard was it about trying to speed up the approvals processes or find 

out what was going on? Both of those things? 

Mr. Bowler: At varying times. In general to try and speed things up, overcome the red 

tape and bureaucracy. 

Mr. Hall: All right. One of the issues was, as I mentioned yesterday in the opening, the 

route of the railway line to Port Hedland, wasn't it? 

Mr. Bowler: Through Woodstock/Abydos. 

Mr. Hall: Yes, and Woodstock/Abydos is a protected area? 

Mr. Bowler: Yes. I've got some contention with that. I think it demeans Aboriginal 

heritage when you take two old stations with white man's boundaries and say this is an 

Aboriginal protected area. It's just ridiculous it was ever done in the first place. 

Mr. Hall: All right, but the fact is - - -? 

Mr. Bowler: It's been done. 


Mr. Hall: - - - it is and - - - 

The Commissioner: Just hang for a moment. Just by way of explanation, is that where the 

name Woodstock/Abydos comes from, the name of two old - - -? 

Mr. Bowler: It was two sheep stations, Mr. Commissioner, and I - I just thought it 

demeaned a heritage when you could take two sheep stations and saying these sheep 

stations have - are heritage-listed rather than I suppose you could say the Aboriginal 

boundaries. 

The Commissioner: Right, yes, I was just intrigued as to where the name had come from. 

Mr. Hall: All right, but at all material times they were - that was a protected area under 

the Aboriginal Heritage Act? 

Mr. Bowler: Yep. 

Mr. Hall: Because of that, FMG had made an application for part of that land to be excised 

for the purposes of building the railway. Yes? 

Mr. Bowler: There were two possible processes and that was one of them, yes. 

Mr. Hall: That's the process that they in fact opted for, isn't it? 

Mr. Bowler: Yeah, I think after some debate. 

Mr. Hall: As I understand that process, the place that application goes in the first instance 

is to the Aboriginal Cultural Materials Committee? 

Mr. Bowler: It ends up there. I don't think it - I know it had been going on for some time. 

It gets there, yes. 

Mr. Hall: Yes, and then that committee makes a recommendation to the minister who 

makes the decision? 

Mr. Bowler: Yes. 

Mr. Hall: That being? 

Mr. Bowler: But she doesn't have to accept the decision. 

Mr. Hall: Of course, no, and in fact she can take that recommendation, any submissions 

made to her into account and make a decision on the matter and indeed that's what 

ultimately happened, wasn't it? The decision was made to excise the area and to allow 

the railway to go ahead and you had a strong view that was the appropriate course, didn't 

you? 

Mr. Bowler: Yes, I did. 


Mr. Hall: It also happened to be a view that Mr. Grill was expressing to you on behalf of 

his client? 

Mr. Bowler: That's right. 

Mr. Hall: Was Mr. Grill keen to know - I take it from what you said a moment ago the 

process ended up being quite a long one? 

Mr. Bowler: Yeah. Any of those things seem to take inordinately long and at that stage, 

you know, the word from Andrew Forrest was that if we don't get approval soon, the 

project would fall over. It was precarious. He was at a stage of organising fundings and, 

as I say, it's a multi-billion-dollar project. 

Mr. Hall: So it was important to him, not only to get a final decision on the matter but to 

know where in that decision-making process the matter had reached? 


Mr. Hall: Did Mr. Grill press you for information in that regard? 

Mr. Bowler: We would have been in - as I've said, I told you before, we were in constant 

contact on FMG issues, where they were and how I could help. As the Minister for 

Resources, that's my job. 

Mr. Hall: Can we listen to a call on 27 April last year please, 813? 

Start of TI transcript, exhibit T813: 

GRILL: Is there someone that I can deal with in your Department 

BOWLER: Fine, well 

GRILL: that I can send the material through to, or? 

BOWLER: In the office or the Department? 

GRILL: Well, I prefer to deal with someone in your office. 

BOWLER: Okay. 

GRILL: I mean. 

BOWLER: Uhm, 

GRILL: I mean (sighs) Simon seems to be very busy. 

BOWLER: Well no, well Simon’s coming with me overseas anyway . 

GRILL: Is he? 


BOWLER: How about dealing with Paula or Tommo, no, no I’m going to move Tommo 

more into resources. 

GRILL: Mm hm. 

BOWLER: Uhm, ah he’s just wasted a bit where he is uhm, uhm maybe Paula at this stage. 

GRILL: (Clears throat) 

BOWLER: You know Paula, don’t you? 

GRILL: I’m not sure that I do. 

BOWLER: Well okay, uhm why don’t we you, you give this one to Tommo. 

GRILL: Well 

BOWLER: Why don’t you? 

GRILL: I’m quite happy to deal with Paula. 

BOWLER: Speak to. 

GRILL: I mean I’m even happy to deal with Rosemary but I’d like 

BOWLER: No Rosemary’s out of the loop. 

GRILL: there to be someone I can deal with while you’re away. 

BOWLER: Yeah, no Rosemary’s out of the loop uhm deal with Paula. 

GRILL: Is Paula competent? 

BOWLER: Yeah, very, very good. 

GRILL: And could you give her a ring to say I’m gunna contact her? 

BOWLER: I’ll give her a ring now, say you’re gunna contact her. 

GRILL: Yeah. 

BOWLER: So you can give her the background to it. 

GRILL: Yes. 

BOWLER: Ah, and we can want to move it forward. 

GRILL: Yes. 


BOWLER: Okay mate, uhm. 

GRILL: Can you 

BOWLER: I’ll err, I’ll give you 

GRILL: can you contact uhm Sheila tomorrow and just say? 

BOWLER: Yep. 

GRILL: Look this is holding up this project and uhm. 

BOWLER: Well can you fax? 

GRILL: Yes. 

BOWLER: And mark it attention Simon, just a bit of what the background you’re got 

there and the name of the Aboriginal group. 

GRILL: Yes. 

BOWLER: Ah, so I’ve got some facts when I’m, when I talk to Sheila. 

GRILL: Yes, I can get all that through to you. 

BOWLER: Okay. 

GRILL: And, and to Paula? 

BOWLER: So you fax that through to Simon and I, I’ll get Paula to give you a buzz. 

GRILL: Now I’ll tell you what, you’re not keen for stuff to come through to your office on 

my, on my computer, are you? 

BOWLER: No. 

GRILL: So if I get this sent through by FMG 

BOWLER: ... or internal fax. 

GRILL: What’s that? 

BOWLER: Yeah, yeah get, get FMG to send it. 

GRILL: I’ll get FMG to send it through. 

BOWLER: Yep. 


GRILL: Ah and then I can ring up Paula and talk to her and to Simon and talk to them? 

BOWLER: Yep. 

GRILL: Okay then. 

BOWLER: Okay. 

GRILL: Alright. 

End of TI transcript, exhibit T813. 

Mr. Hall: You appear to agree to that comment by Mr. Grill that you're not keen for stuff 

to come through to your office from his computer? 

Mr. Bowler: As I said to you yesterday, my concern about the continued FOI requests on 

such that would then be out in there to the media, no other reason. 

Mr. Hall: There's a reference to Shelia, that would be Ms McHale: Can you contact Shelia 

tomorrow and just say, "Look this is holding up this project?" Did you do that? 

Mr. Bowler: I think I told you - did we speak about this yesterday or am I - the stress 

level is getting to the point where I can't remember. 

Mr. Hall: We did - no, we did mention it at the very end of the day? 

Mr. Bowler: Yes, right. 

Mr. Hall: And you did say that you had spoken to Ms McHale? 

Mr. Bowler: Yeah. 

Mr. Hall: I just wonder if you could - - -? 

Mr. Bowler: So you're asking the same question again the next day? 

Mr. Hall: Well, in the light of this telephone call - - -? 

Mr. Bowler: Okay. 

Mr. Hall: are you able to say whether you did it in consequence of Mr. Grill asking you to? 

Mr. Bowler: I remember it was the day I was - the morning I was going overseas, I had 

never been overseas in my life. My wife had never been overseas in my life, honestly, if I 

did it it was getting it out of the way before I went overseas. If I didn't do it I'm 

disappointed I didn't because I should have done it because I was supportive of the 

project and wanted to move it on as quick as I could. 


Mr. Hall: The day you went overseas was the 28th, was it? 

Mr. Bowler: April or May? 

Mr. Hall: This was the 27th this call? 

Mr. Bowler: Is it April or May? 

Mr. Hall: Yes, this is 27 April? 

Mr. Bowler: Yeah, it was April. I went away on the Saturday morning. 

Mr. Hall: Right? 

Mr. Bowler: Yep. Yeah. 

Mr. Hall: Well, it would seem you did have some opportunity to speak to Ms McHale 

because you had this conversation on the 28th, the next day, of April. 814? 

Mr. Bowler: What time? 

Mr. Hall: The time is about quarter past 6 in the evening? 

Mr. Bowler: No. 

Okay, it wasn't the Saturday then because I was - I left at midday. 

Start of TI transcript, exhibit 814 

GRILL: Hello? 

BOWLER: Julian? 

GRILL: John, how are you? 

BOWLER: Hello? 

GRILL: Yeah I’m right yeah. John 

BOWLER: Julian, how are you going? 

GRILL: Yeah, good. 

BOWLER: A couple of things. I just spoke to Sheila. Uhm, she’s still shying away from 

using the Section Ten, uhm, saying that, you know, it will set a precedent, uhm that they 

have been working going down Section Twenty One. She’s confident that, you know, 

going down that way will, you know, pave the way. I said, well you know, you’ve still got 

to go to that bloody ah meeting next week of the, uhm, what is it? Ah, the ACMC? 

GRILL: ACMC. Yeah. 


BOWLER: Ah, on May the third and, uhm, who’s to know what they they’ll do? Uhm 

GRILL: Hm. 

BOWLER: and she said, she kept on going back and setting the precedent 

GRILL: Hm. 

BOWLER: and State Solicitor’s advice. And I said, well, you know, mate, you know, State 

Solicitor’s advice changes from day to day as I’ve just learned on 

GRILL: Hm. 

BOWLER: bloody err, on (suppression). Uhm, anyway, she said, oh, look, I’m, ah, and I 

said I’ve seen another legal opinion that says, you know, if we go down this other path, 

you know, while it may set a bit of a precedent, I said this, in itself, is a precedent because 

there is no other area in the state, you know, quite like Woodstock and the Abydos 

Reserves that are really ah, you know, and even she concedes that it could never have 

been done in the first place. 

GRILL: Yeah. 

BOWLER: Uhm, ah, but she, you know, she was humming and haring on that a bit. I think 

if I, two things. First of all, she said well look if you, if there is another legal opinion out 

there that I can then use and then maybe send back to State Solicitors and say well look, 

you know, someone else has said this 

GRILL: Yeah. 

BOWLER: I’m prepared to look at it. 

GRILL: Yep. 

BOWLER: So if you’ve got a legal opinion that 

GRILL: Yeah, we have. 

BOWLER: you know, that gives a concise way through that, 

GRILL: Yeah 

BOWLER: without setting a precedent, you know. And I think if it does set a precedent, 

then the very nature of this place sets a precedent. It doesn’t apply anywhere else in the 

state, does it? 

GRILL: No. No. 

BOWLER: So, those two things. The next one obviously is, ah, I think if the Premier told 


her you know ah ...... then maybe you know that would happen. 

GRILL: Yeah, right okay then. Alright. 

End of TI transcript, exhibit 814 

THE WITNESS: Now, Mr Commissioner, before we resume can I seek a suppression on 

the word "(suppression)." It's a part of a - (suppression) - it disputes a part of a Supreme 

Court decision or action involving the state government. I don't know if - - - 

Mr. Hall: It's on the second page - - - 

The Commissioner: I don't have - - -? 

Mr. Bowler: I don't even know why the word "(suppression)" was mentioned there. 

- - - (indistinct) do you Mr. Hall? 

Mr. Hall: No. I don't have any difficulty with it either. 

The Commissioner: All right. There will be a suppression of the name (suppression) in 

extract T0814? 


Mr. Hall: It would seem from that that you did speak to Ms McHale? 

Mr. Bowler: Yep. 

Mr. Hall: Did you have any reservations about providing to Mr. Grill an account of this 

minister-to-minister conversation? 

Mr. Bowler:Certainly not. 

Mr. Hall: Did it occur to you that Mr. Grill could speak to Ms McHale himself if he wished 

to do so? 

Mr. Bowler:If she wanted to. 

Mr. Hall: Well, why did you think - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:That's my job. 

Mr. Hall: Why did you think it was necessary for you - - - ? 

Mr. Bowler:That's my job. 

Mr. Hall: to act as an intermediary in this regard? 

Mr. Bowler:Well, he was talking to me. What am I going to say? "I'm not going to tell 


you about it. You go - " it was - I was there making a representation on the - as the 

Minister for Resources. As minister assisting the Minister for State Development, it's my 

job to help those processes through. 

Mr. Hall: On behalf of the interests of the public at large? 

Mr. Bowler:Of the mining industry and of the West Australian people. 

Mr. Hall: So why do you go back and give an account of this to Mr. Grill? 

Mr. Bowler:It wasn't a Cabinet decision. It was a discussion. 

Mr. Hall: I'm not saying that? 

Mr. Bowler:So what's wrong - - - 

Mr. Hall: I'm just saying, why are you - - - ? 

Mr. Bowler:Why are you asking me that? What is wrong with that? 

Mr. Hall: I'm asking you why you were acting as an intermediary for Mr. Grill. Why can't 

he just deal with the Minister for Indigenous Affairs himself? 

Mr. Bowler:He's asked me what - the progress of this development and I'm just advising 

him of a way forward. 

Mr. Hall: Didn't it occur to you that the reason why Mr. Grill mightn't do this is he 

mightn't receive the same warm, friendly reception from other minister as he got from 

you? 

Mr. Bowler:Well, I'd like to think all ministers are warm and friendly as me and helpful 

and get developments done and maybe it's your opinion they're not but my job was to get 

it done and to help that happen. 

Mr. Hall: Was a legal opinion, do you know, ever provided? 

Mr. Bowler:I'm unaware. 

Mr. Hall: Did you know that the ACMC, the Aboriginal Cultural and Materials Committee 

did make a recommendation? 

Mr. Bowler:Yes, I'm aware of that. 

Mr. Hall: On 7 June? 

Mr. Bowler:Yes. 

Mr. Hall: Do you know what the outcome of that was, what the recommendation was? 


Mr. Bowler:If I - not exactly but if I remember, it was this, that - which I think we've just 

been shown in the transcript and I think it was someone in the department or the 

minister or someone told me that their decision was that they would say, "No," but that 

the minister may then overturn the decision but they couldn't make - do that decision 

themselves. So in other words I think they said, "No," but then let others sort of put a 

caveat on it saying, "Well, we've said no because otherwise it would look - you know, it 

just wouldn't look right but if you want to, go ahead and overturn the decision." 

Mr. Hall: Well, it's the minister's decision at the end of the day anyway, isn't it? 

Mr. Bowler:At the end of the day, you know, yeah, either way. 

Mr. Hall: Yes, but the committee, or whatever your interpretation of that may be, said, 

"No," that the variation to the protected area should not be permitted? 

Mr. Bowler:Yeah, which I disagreed with personally. 

Mr. Hall: I realise that. Did you advise Mr. Grill of that position, that outcome? 

Mr. Bowler:I assume I would have, yes. Either him or one of my staff members would 

have or FMG. 

Mr. Hall: Where there's a variation to a protected area, that's a matter that has to go to 

the governor in council, doesn't it? 

Mr. Bowler:I'm not too sure. 

Mr. Hall: You're not too sure, all right. Matters that have to be considered by the 

governor in council, are they usually referred to in Cabinet? 

Mr. Bowler:I - at the end of the day, they may have been but at that stage it hadn't been 

referred to Cabinet. 

Mr. Hall: They were ultimately, this matter was referred to - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:I assume if there was a - you know, a process that was done. 

Mr. Hall: There was a Cabinet meeting on 19 June 2006, I understand, which was a 

Monday. It's usual, I take it, Cabinet meetings to be on a Monday? 

Mr. Bowler:Yes, correct. 

Mr. Hall: You were back, I would guess, from your overseas trip. How long were you 

away for? 

Mr. Bowler:10 days. 

Mr. Hall: So until what, about mid-may, something like that? 


Mr. Bowler:Yeah. 

Mr. Hall: Now, there had been an arrangement with Mr. Grill to meet on that day, on 19 

June, for lunch. Cabinet meetings, I take it, are normally in the morning, are they? 

Mr. Bowler:Yep. 

Mr. Hall: All right. If we could listen to 819, please. 

Start of IT transcript, exhibit 819: 

GRILL: Hello. 

BOWLER: Julian, John. 

GRILL: G’day mate how are you? 

BOWLER: Yeah good, where are you? On the er banks of the, of the err 

GRILL: Of the Seine? 

BOWLER: Seine, yeah. 

GRILL: Not far away. 

BOWLER: On the left bank are ya? 

GRILL: (laughs) Yeah we are at the Hotel Hilton at the moment. 

BOWLER: Where? 

GRILL: Hilton Hotel. 

BOWLER: Oh, okay and Brian? 

GRILL: Now we’re going to ... 

BOWLER: Brian er 

GRILL: Uh yeah. 

BOWLER: ... can’t be I rang him up and uhm yeah look uhm there’s a few little things I, I 

want to have a chat to you when you get back, uhm you know branch and everything else. 

GRILL: Mm hm. 

BOWLER: and uhm, when do you get back? 

GRILL: I get back on Friday, what about if I give you a ring on uhm, what would suit you 


est? 

BOWLER: Yeah. 

GRILL: Uh Saturday? 

BOWLER: Well or may, may, may I, I think maybe Monday, yeah or Monday lunch time, I 

we have a lunch together or something after cabinet, 

GRILL: That’d be great. 

BOWLER: Okay. 

GRILL: Alright. 

BOWLER: That’s what we’ll do. Uhm I’ll give you a ring as soon as I come out of cabinet 

Monday, so I won’t hang around and we’ll just, where would you like to meet? Just 

somewhere you know not sort of too salubrious and sort of long-winded err. 

GRILL: What say down at the Mount Street Café? 

End of IT transcript, exhibit 819. 

Mr. Hall: All right, so it would look like that meeting on 19 June was a prearranged one 

initiated by you? 


Mr. Hall: You clearly knew that you would be attending a Cabinet meeting that day. Is 

that something - sometimes those Cabinet meetings are a bit unpredictable in terms of 

their length I take it, so there might be some uncertainty as to when you could get there? 

Mr. Bowler:I've never known one to go past 1 o'clock in my time. I think in the past they 

have. 

Mr. Hall: All right. Mr. Grill spoke to Mr Tapp of FMG about that and we don't need to 

play the call I don't think. I can tell you that on 16 June 2006 Mr. Grill told Mr Tapp that 

he was having lunch with you and that he thought it was to talk business. Did you have a 

purpose in mind? 

Mr. Bowler:No, as I said, there may have been a couple of branch matters. Julian Grill is 

still in the Kalgoorlie-Boulder branch of the Labor Party and there may have been a 

couple of - as I say, there was usually the weekly FMG issue and I don't think I'd spoken 

to him for some time, he'd been away, so just to clear them up. 

Mr. Hall: Do you remember who was in attendance at this lunch on the 19th? 

Mr. Bowler:I can't recall. 


Mr. Hall: Well, if I suggested that - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:Maybe Simon was there, was he, or Tim? No, Tim Walster was there I think. 

Mr. Hall: Both of them? 

Mr. Bowler:Both of them, were they? Okay. 

Mr. Hall: Yes, I think so? 

Mr. Bowler:Yep. It was in a very public place, I know that. 

Mr. Hall: Not all of it. Some of it was at Mr. Grill's home? 

Mr. Bowler:Okay. Okay. 

Mr. Hall: And, yes, they were both present, that is, Mr Corrigan and Mr Walster, and you 

were a little delayed I think in getting there. Do you recall that? 

Mr. Bowler:No. 

Mr. Hall: That Mr Corrigan and Mr Walster were there first? 

Mr. Bowler:Okay, I - - - 

Mr. Hall: You don't recall that? 

Mr. Bowler:No. 

Mr. Hall: I played you an excerpt, you may recall, from last night. Would you like me to 

remind you of that? 

Mr. Bowler:I slept on it all last night so I don't think reminding of it. 

Mr. Hall: All right. Well, for the sake of the record it's 955. Mr. Grill asks you how 

Cabinet went and you said, "Good, a couple of big decisions deferred," and you then raise 

the subject of Woodstock/Abydos. You say, "Apparently Carps" - obviously that's a 

reference to Mr Carpenter - "says he's happy in the way it's going, that although they said, 

you know, the decisions of that committee" - and someone says "ACMC" and you say, 

"ACMC. Sheila - Sheila understands that they have to say that and that she will now 

overturn it." Now, someone - Mr. Grill in fact says he had better take some notes. He 

says, "So Carpenter just told you that Sheila should overturn the decision." Mr Corrigan 

says, "Yeah, I think she has, Sheila said that she will," and you say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." 

Mr. Hall: This had occurred at Cabinet that day I take it? 

Mr. Bowler:I'm not too sure. You know there was discussion been going on for weeks 

before. You know as your tapes show the issue was around for some time. I had 

meetings with Shelia McHale, the Premier and Alannah MacTiernan. Not so - you know, 


formal meetings - well, there was one formal meeting but - and discussions as well maybe 

as we passed in Parliament House and things like that. 

Mr. Hall: You obviously appreciate, as you've told us before, that this decision was a very 

important one for FMG, they obviously wanted to know whether they could get their 

railway line through Woodstock/Abydos or not? 


Mr. Hall: The announcement of this decision wasn't in fact made for several weeks 

thereafter. It was announced by the minister for indigenous affairs on 13 July 2006? 


Mr. Hall: In the interim the minister for indigenous affairs in fact asked for further 

information before she made her decision. Did you know that? 

Mr. Bowler:That's correct, yeah. 

Mr. Hall: Didn't you think that you were providing here some confidential information in 

regards to what indications the minister for indigenous affairs had given to you, that is 

that she would now overturn the ACMC decision? 

Mr. Bowler:No, it was a general sentiment I - I was probably being presumptuous in 

saying it was definitely going to happen but it was a feeling I felt was going to happen and a 

feeling within, you know, that small group of people I just mentioned before was that if, 

you know, there's - if there as - we don't have access this way, we will have to try and 

find another way because so much of Woodstock/Abydos isn't real genuine heritage 

areas. As I say, it was just two sheep stations declared and we just have to find another 

route, if we had to do that then we would do it. 

Mr. Hall: But the point is, Mr. Bowler, that - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:No, in answer to your question I know I - that was discussions that have been 

going on growing for - and I had had an impression now for several weeks and Shelia 

didn't - she took some time after that to make the final announcement but she was still 

working on it and I was - - - 

Mr. Hall: That's the point I'm making, that for any outside observer the appearance would 

be that the minister for indigenous affairs was still going through a process of reaching a 

decision - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:And she was. In fairness to her I think she was. That's the process she went 

through. I felt confident that she would, what I believed, make the right decision. 

Mr. Hall: But you were saying more than that. It wasn't just, "I'm confident that she 

would make this decision," you were saying to them, "Shelia understands that they, that is 

the ACMC have to say that, and she will now overturn it." She will overturn the ACMC 

decision you said? 


Mr. Bowler:That's right. That was the indications that were given to me. 

Mr. Hall: Well, they turned out to be right, that was the decision made? 

Mr. Bowler:Very good decision too. 

Mr. Hall: I'm sure you would think so but you were giving them a heads up on this well 

before it became public? 

Mr. Bowler:FMG? 

Yes? 

Mr. Bowler:Well, it still had to be finally ticked off but in the planning aspect there was 

two possibilities for two routes and if they didn't get that route then they were going to 

have to start work on planning another one. This was costing them millions of dollars a 

day, not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, this was costing them millions of 

dollars a day according to them and if they looked like being - not going ahead on that 

route then they would start planning the other route which was far more expensive in a 

capital sense and would have been far more expensive in an operational sense because it 

would have been a big diversion around some major canyons in that part of the Pilbara. 

Mr. Hall: On the 24th of - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:So I was - it was an indication to the company that it should be right in the 

way we're going, don't start planning the other route. 

Mr. Hall: On 24 June you had a conversation with Mr. Grill, so this is just a few days after 

the lunch meeting, 809, if we could listen to that. 


GRILL: Now the other thing was uhm, uhm FMG. Uhm, has Sheila gone back on her 

commitment to uhm, reject that recommendation from the ACMC? She’s certainly 

written a letter, first of all she rang uh up uh Andrew and said she was going to overrule 

them. Then she rang back and said uh, uhm, uh she didn’t know whether she was or 

whether she wasn’t and she’s written a letter asking for more information. Were you 

aware of that? 

BOWLER: Uh about the sites? 

GRILL: Yeah about going through Woodstock and uh Abydos. 

BOWLER: Abydos. Well I think she wants she wants assurances, you know about that uh 

centre line that uhm you know that the the rail won’t impact upon sacred sites. 

GRILL: Yeah it goes beyond that. 


BOWLER: ... Andrew can do that, don’t he, can’t he? 

GRILL: Yeah but it goes, ah yeah yeah of course he can. But it goes beyond that. I mean 

the main thrust of the letter that was sent, uhm really goes back to this question of 

consultation, and uh says you know uh, uh you say there’s been thorough consultation 

and that uh, you know the great majority of the community agreed to uh, uh to the 

proposition you put forward but did they really understand it? Uhm, and what evidence 

have you got that they really understood it, uh et cetera. So uhm, you know she’s going 

to all the fundamental objections, uh that the ACMC threw up uhm, to the proposition in 

the first place. I mean is she, I mean she makes, she makes herself look stupid because she 

rings up and tells Andrew it’s gunna go ahead. I tell Andrew that it’s likely to go ahead on 

the basis of what you tell me and your discussions with uh, with uh Alan Carpenter. And 

then he gets another phone call which count- sort of countermands it and then he gets 

this letter. I mean, uh, it makes us all look a bit lacking in credibility. 

BOWLER: Can uhm, I, you know can you get uhm Andrew to give me a copy of that 

letter? 

GRILL: So, uh I’ll send you a c- ah no it shouldn’t come from me should it? Okay I’ll get a 

copy of that letter sent to you. 


Mr. Hall: Did you get a copy of that letter? 

Mr. Bowler:I can't recall. 

Mr. Hall: Do you recall speaking to Ms McHale about whether was any change in her 

view? 

Mr. Bowler:She hadn't changed her view, she just wanted more time to consider it and 

look at various matters. 

Mr. Hall: When you say she hadn't changed her view then I take it that what you had told 

Mr. Grill on the 19th still stood? 

Mr. Bowler:I thought that would be the case but I was becoming, about that time, a bit 

less sure. 

Mr. Hall: Now, on 10 July 2006, you had a long conversation with Mr. Grill. Can we listen 

firstly to 880. Just an early part of that call? 

Mr. Bowler:When was that previous one? 

Mr. Hall: The previous one, the one I just played you was the 24th of June. This is the 

10th - - -? 

Mr. Bowler:And now we're going to the 10th of July? 


Mr. Hall: 10 July. 


GRILL: Thanks for all the work you did on FMG. Uh Sheila, uh seems to have agreed to 

most of that now. 

BOWLER: Uhm you know that she’s approved uhm uh a lease through Woodstock? 

GRILL: Yeah that’s what I’m getting at. 

BOWLER: Yeah yeah 

GRILL: Yeah. 

BOWLER: Oh okay yep yep yep. 

GRILL: Yeah. 

BOWLER: (coughs) 

GRILL: So uh, did she take it to Cabinet? 

BOWLER: ’cause you know she’s just a you know she sort of announced you know, oh 

you know, I’m not gunna have any uhm rock art destr, you know uh Aboriginal art 

destroyed through Woodstock-Abydos, Carps and I looked at each other and I thought 

fuck she said but you know, you know that doesn’t mean it can’t go ahead and you know, 

I thought well shit you know we always knew that it was never gunna destroy any, you 

know, I suppose it’s the language she uses that you know she can, come out 

GRILL: Ah. 

BOWLER: and safely you know say that you know. 

GRILL: No you’re right. She w uh she I know from internally within her own department, 

that uhm she’s sort of counting it as a big win. 


Mr. Hall: Later in the same call - 881, please. 

Start of TI transcript, exhibit 881: 

BOWLER: Yeah I 

GRILL: Anyhow I I I think uh Andrew will ring you, because uh, you know I’ve told him 

that uhm, you were responsible for getting uh, Alan to put a bit of pressure on uh on uh, 

on Sheila to come up with the right sort of answer. 


BOWLER: Yeah. 

GRILL: So he’ll give you a buzz. 

BOWLER: Okay mate. 

GRILL: So he’ll thank you for that. 

BOWLER: Yeah, no worries. 

End of TI transcript, exhibit 881. 

THE WITNESS: Mr Commissioner, can I just say once again it's bit of like a Brian Burke 

taking credit - the credit where credit wasn't due. 

The Commissioner: Understood? 

Mr. Bowler:I think lobbyists in general do that. This pair did it in spades. 

The Commissioner: I understand what you are saying. 

Mr. Hall: Was there any reason why Mr Forrest should feel grateful to you? 

Mr. Bowler:I'd been trying to help him with the whole - the whole issue. If he wants to 

ring me up and say thanks he can but he doesn't have to, I see it as my job. 

Mr. Hall: Did you not see that on this occasion whether you thought your job coincided 

with what Mr. Grill wanted, you were in fact providing assistance to Mr. Grill both by way 

of information and in a willingness to make approaches to your Cabinet colleagues and 

present his views. You were becoming an extension of his lobbying business? 

Mr. Bowler:No, I don't. My - as a minister for resources it is my job to help mining 

companies and if he's representing the biggest single new project in the state what am I 

going to do, not help him? Not talk to my ministerial colleagues where processes may be 

in place or I believed taking too long or not happening? And if I can help in that process 

I'll do it and I'm proud of what I did. 

Mr. Hall: Commissioner, there's one or two matters that I want to put to Mr. Bowler. 

I'm nearly finished but I wonder if I could have a short adjournment? 

The Commissioner: Certainly. We will have a very short adjournment until 3 o'clock on 

that clock. 

[ADJOURNMENT] 

The Commissioner: Mr Urquhart - I'm sorry, Mr. Hall. 

Mr. Hall: Yes, Commissioner. I just have one remaining matter to ask Mr. Bowler about. 


Mr. Bowler, in relation to your dealings with Mr. Burke and Mr. Grill, were they ever able 

to be of assistance to you, do anything of value for you? 

Mr. Bowler:There was those donations to my campaign before I became a minister. 

Mr. Hall: Certainly? 

Mr. Bowler:And nothing else that I can recall. 

Mr. Hall: All right. You recall the rail strike, the strike on the Perth to Mandurah rail? 

Mr. Bowler:On the tunnel? 

Mr. Hall: Yes? 

Mr. Bowler:Yep, okay. Yep. 

Mr. Hall: Did Mr. Burke provide any help, anything of benefit to you in that regard? 

Mr. Bowler:I can't recall. I know I spoke to Kevin Reynolds, he was away, to try and have 

the matter settled. I was the Minister for Employment Protection and if I could have the 

dispute settled quickly, that would be good. 

Mr. Hall: Yes. Did you play a role in that in the end? 

Mr. Bowler:In the end, no. 

Mr. Hall: Was there some suggestion that you could? 

Mr. Bowler:It was settled. I think it was settled before. No, I didn't play a role. There 

was some suggestion that if it went on, I was prepared to go and play a part but it never 

got to that. 

Mr. Hall: Can I suggest to you that Mr. Burke spoke to you about him being able to 

achieve a resolution of that strike and he could ensure that you were in a position to 

receive credit for that resolution? 

Mr. Bowler:I'm not surprised he would make that claim. 

Mr. Hall: Well, he made it to you? 

Mr. Bowler:Okay. I can't remember it but - - - 

Mr. Hall: All right. Can we listen to 911 please? This is on 2 March 2006. 

Start of TI transcript, exhibit T911: 

BOWLER: Oh yeah this, this strike I err just think that us doing nothing looks like that 

we’re you know at the end of the day people can’t don’t give a stuff or don’t care or 


don’t know what what’s the difference between State and Federal uhm legislation uhm all 

they know is that it’s we’re the government, it’s a government project and we’re doing 

nothing. 

BURKE: Do you want me to try do something about it? 

BOWLER: try and intervene, I know these, blokes guys have voted to go out again .... 

BURKE: Till next Wednesday. 

BOWLER: at least offer until, offer to say .... 

BURKE: what about, what about if you are to intervene 

BOWLER: hey? 

BURKE: and what about if you where to err, err intervene, offer to meet them and they 

agree to go back to work on Monday? 

BOWLER: Well I I’m, I’m going to make the offer and look if the company and the Union 

want me to be involved I’ll be involved. 

BURKE: Okay well why don’t you just, why don’t you just wait until you receive a call 

from the Union? See 

BOWLER: I, I that’s 

BURKE: I think Kevin’s in Sydney that’s the trouble. 

BOWLER: I’ve got that suggestion going up to Carpenter this morning. 

BURKE: Have you? 

BOWLER: Uhm you I can’t do something like this, you know, practically after Alannah 

sort of stone walled it for the last week. 

BURKE: Mate Alannah’s been the whole trouble. 

BOWLER: Yeah. Oh 

BURKE: the, well when I say the whole trouble you know what I mean. 

BOWLER: Yep. 

BURKE: it all goes back to how Kobelke handled everything but in, anyway listen the 

blokes that met this morning they’re out until next Wednesday. What did you 

BOWLER: Brian stop, this has got the makings of destroying the, I think Leighton want 

this to happen. 


BURKE: Yeah okay but uhm what I’m saying I’ll fix it but I, I’m just asking you if they went 

back to work on Friday as your result of your intervention would that be satisfactory? 

BOWLER: Oh I think everyone would be happy. 

End of TI transcript, exhibit T911. 

Mr. Hall: Did you think that was something Mr. Burke was able to achieve? 

Mr. Bowler:Well, he's a friend of Kevin Reynolds. The message I'd got before that call 

was that because Reynolds was away, the situation had reached where it was. If he had 

been there - the union officials at the time - I forget their names - didn't have quite the 

clout with the workers but if Reynolds was there saying, "Look, let's go back to work," it 

would happen. Obviously, Brian Burke had 

got information that Kevin Reynolds was on his way back and he was then going to try 

and take credit for, you know, saying, "I can fix this," when reality was once Kevin 

Reynolds got back it was going to be fixed anyway. 

Mr. Hall: All right, but what he was saying was that you would in fact get the credit for it? 

Mr. Bowler:He was suggesting that. 

Mr. Hall: Is that something he has been able to deliver to you in the past? 

Mr. Bowler:Not that I can recall, certainly hasn't done it in the last month. 

Mr. Hall: All right. Thank you, Mr. Bowler. 

END OF EXTRACT

CCC Hearings re FMG Railway - Yindjibarndi Aboriginal Corporation

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