AN INTERVIEW WITH LARRY MAXEY - The University of Kansas
AN INTERVIEW WITH LARRY MAXEY - The University of Kansas
AN INTERVIEW WITH LARRY MAXEY - The University of Kansas
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<strong>AN</strong> <strong>INTERVIEW</strong> <strong>WITH</strong> <strong>LARRY</strong> <strong>MAXEY</strong><br />
Interviewer: Jewell Willhite<br />
Oral History Project<br />
Endacott Society<br />
<strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
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<strong>LARRY</strong> <strong>MAXEY</strong><br />
B.M., “With Honor,” Michigan State <strong>University</strong>, 1959- Public School Music<br />
M.M., Music Literature and Performance, Eastman School <strong>of</strong> Music, 1960<br />
D.M.A., Performance and Pedagogy, Eastman School <strong>of</strong> Music, 1968<br />
Service at the <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
First hired at the <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Kansas</strong>, 1970<br />
Assistant pr<strong>of</strong>essor <strong>of</strong> Clarinet, 1970-1975<br />
Associate Pr<strong>of</strong>essor <strong>of</strong> Clarinet, 1975-1980<br />
Pr<strong>of</strong>essor <strong>of</strong> Clarinet, 1980-2007<br />
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<strong>AN</strong> <strong>INTERVIEW</strong> <strong>WITH</strong> LARY <strong>MAXEY</strong><br />
Interviewer: Jewell Willhite<br />
Q: I am speaking with Larry Maxey, who retired as pr<strong>of</strong>essor <strong>of</strong> clarinet at the <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong><br />
<strong>Kansas</strong> in 2007. We are in Lawrence, <strong>Kansas</strong>, on December 17, 2007. Where were you<br />
born and in what year?<br />
A: Michigan City, Indiana, in 1937.<br />
Q: What were your parents’ names?<br />
A: My father was Charles Sheldon Maxey. He was named after Charles Sheldon, who was<br />
the author <strong>of</strong> What Would Jesus Do? He was at a church in Topeka, although my<br />
grandmother, who lived in Indiana, had only heard <strong>of</strong> him. My mother was Bernice Frey<br />
Maxey.<br />
Q: My mother’s name was Bernice also.<br />
A: Not a very common name.<br />
Q: What was their educational background?<br />
A: <strong>The</strong>y both had bachelors and masters degrees, and my mother had a nursing degree. She<br />
went on to accumulate a lot <strong>of</strong> graduate hours over the years and eventually ended up<br />
with a masters degree in education as well. My father had a master’s. He taught in high<br />
school for his entire life.<br />
Q: What did he teach?<br />
A: He started out as a wood shop teacher, then he taught distributive education, which was<br />
the program whereby students went to school half time and worked half time. He<br />
supervised that program during the later years <strong>of</strong> his career.<br />
Q: Was your mother employed also?<br />
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A: She was a school nurse at one time. <strong>The</strong>n she took over what was called the classroom<br />
for crippled children. This was way back in the fifties, before anybody heard <strong>of</strong> what we<br />
now call special education. She worked with people with all sorts <strong>of</strong> disabilities in one<br />
classroom. I used to work with her class a little bit. It was a challenge. She had all kinds<br />
<strong>of</strong> kids in there, but she loved them and did them a lot <strong>of</strong> good, just kind <strong>of</strong> learning how<br />
to do it as she went. She had some training, but I think she was chosen because she was a<br />
nurse and because she had a lot <strong>of</strong> empathy for people.<br />
Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?<br />
A: Yes. I have a brother who is retired from Upjohn Chemical Company in Kalamazoo,<br />
Michigan. He had a very successful career as a chemist.<br />
Q: Did you grow up in the town where you were born?<br />
A: Right.<br />
Q: What elementary school did you go to?<br />
A: I went to Marsh Elementary, which was two blocks from my house. In those days I<br />
remember that everybody went home for lunch. <strong>The</strong>re was no lunch program at the<br />
school. Everybody went home and the mothers were at home. You went home and had<br />
lunch and you came back to school.<br />
Q: When did you start playing clarinet?<br />
A: In the fourth grade.<br />
Q: How did you happen to choose clarinet?<br />
A: I really wanted to play the trumpet. We walked into the room where they had all the<br />
instruments out on display and the band director was there. <strong>The</strong> band director looked at<br />
me and said, “You look like you ought to be a clarinet player.” I didn’t know any better<br />
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so I said okay. What that really meant was he needed clarinet players, not trumpet<br />
players. So that’s how I got started on the clarinet.<br />
Q: <strong>The</strong>y had band in elementary school then.<br />
A: Yes, they did. I had a very distinguished gentleman who started me on the instrument.<br />
His name was Fred Weber, who at that time was just beginning to publish a series <strong>of</strong><br />
beginners and intermediate band methods. <strong>The</strong>se became best sellers across the country<br />
and he made a tremendous amount <strong>of</strong> money. Shortly after that he left public school<br />
teaching and continued to write the music method books. He was very successful and a<br />
very big name at one time in music education.<br />
Q: Since I played clarinet too, I think I remember that name on some music. Did you belong<br />
to organizations, such as Boy Scouts, or things like that?<br />
A: Yes, I did all the usual stuff and lots <strong>of</strong> clubs in high school, debate club, math club, etc.<br />
Q: What was the name <strong>of</strong> your high school? Was it a high school and junior high?<br />
A: It was Isaac C. Elston Junior High and Isaac C. Elston Senior High School in Michigan<br />
City.<br />
Q: Were you in both marching and concert band, I suppose?<br />
A: Yes. I enjoyed the band. I didn’t like marching, but I liked the band. <strong>The</strong> band<br />
director’s name in high school was Palmer Myran, who was never very well known. But<br />
the thing that made him unique was he was a violinist who was very interested in jazz.<br />
He had a jazz program at the high school in those days before this became common. I<br />
became interested in jazz early on as a result <strong>of</strong> his influence.<br />
Q: Did you play in a jazz group?<br />
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A: Yes, there was a dance band. We played for all the school dances and we played for<br />
money for some outside things as well.<br />
Q: I supposed you participated in music contests.<br />
A: Always.<br />
Q: Solos or groups?<br />
A: Mostly solos. We had a clarinet quartet one year but it was mostly solos. We had a<br />
saxophone group one year as well.<br />
Q: Oh, you played saxophone too?<br />
A: Yes, I played saxophone. If you are in a jazz band, you play szxophone and only<br />
occasionally double on the clarinet. So I picked up saxophone in ninth grade, which was<br />
very easy after learning the clarinet.<br />
Q: Did you have influential teachers?<br />
A: Those two. Fred Weber in grade school and junior high and Palmer Myran in high<br />
school.<br />
Q: Did you have jobs after school or in the summer?<br />
A: I never worked. I did not want to own a car, and I wasn’t spending money on girls, so I<br />
had no reason to need any money. I really wanted to spend my time doing other things.<br />
So I never worked in high school, except for the dance band.<br />
Q: Was it always assumed that you would go to college?<br />
A: Oh, yes.<br />
Q: When did you graduate from high school?<br />
A: 1955.<br />
Q: Where did you go for your undergraduate degree?<br />
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A: Michigan State <strong>University</strong>. <strong>The</strong>re was a very distinguished teacher there by the name <strong>of</strong><br />
Keith Stein, who was the reason I went. He wrote a well-known book called <strong>The</strong> Art <strong>of</strong><br />
Clarinet Playing.<br />
Q: You lived at the school then.<br />
A: Oh, yes.<br />
Q: Were you in a fraternity or did you live in a dorm?<br />
A: I was in a music fraternity, Phi Mu Alpha, which was quite unique. Usually it is just an<br />
honorary fraternity, but we financed and bought a house, which I think was the only Phi<br />
Mu Alpha fraternity house in the country. Some brave faculty member signed on to<br />
guarantee the loan. <strong>The</strong> house was very successful, although I doubt it exists now.<br />
Q: And you were all musicians.<br />
A: Right. It was a good experience.<br />
Q: That would be a great thing to have in common. Did you have jobs in college?<br />
A: I was in a dance band that was very popular and worked a lot. In the spring we had jobs<br />
every Friday and Saturday night. In the winter it would be most Friday and Saturday<br />
nights, in the fall a little less so. In those days fraternities and sororities hired a real band<br />
to play for their dances. This was a seven-piece group, two saxes, trombone, trumpet,<br />
piano, bass and drums. It was a really good band and it was a lot <strong>of</strong> fun to play in. It was<br />
quite lucrative for that time, and I made at the time a fair amount <strong>of</strong> money doing this. Fr<br />
Q: What did you call yourselves?<br />
A: <strong>The</strong> leader <strong>of</strong> the band was Bob Eberhart and his orchestra. <strong>The</strong> band was well-<br />
established before AI got there, but he had an opening and heard about me, so he<br />
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auditioned me. That’s how I got in as a first-semester freshman—I was must in the right<br />
place at the right time. It was really a great experience for four years.<br />
Q: Did you play in the marching band in college?<br />
A: If you had a scholarship, you had to be in marching band and you had to be in symphonic<br />
band. Again, the symphonic band was what I wanted to do. <strong>The</strong> marching was<br />
something I did because I had to do it. I did my student teaching during the fall so I<br />
wouldn’t have to march.<br />
Q: Did you think you might be a high school band director?<br />
A: I never intended to do that. It is the sort <strong>of</strong> thing where you get the degree in case you<br />
need it, but I never envisioned myself doing that.<br />
Q: When did you get your undergraduate degree?<br />
A: That was 1959.<br />
Q: Did you go directly on for a masters?<br />
A: Yes, I went straight on to the Eastman School <strong>of</strong> Music in Rochester, New York, which is<br />
part <strong>of</strong> the <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> Rochester. Again, there was a very distinguished teacher there.<br />
<strong>The</strong> school is very distinguished. It ranks with Julliard and Curtis--Julliard, Curtis, and<br />
Eastman kind <strong>of</strong> all go together. So that was a fantastic place to be and I loved it there.<br />
Q: Did you have influential teachers there?<br />
A: Stanley Hasty. He was the clarinet teacher and he had formerly been principal clarinetist<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra. He has turned out lots and lots <strong>of</strong> outstanding<br />
students.<br />
Q: I suppose you played in musical groups while you were there too.<br />
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A: Yes, I was a member <strong>of</strong> the orchestra and a member <strong>of</strong> the Eastman Wind Ensemble,<br />
which had a very famous conductor by the name <strong>of</strong> Frederick Fennell. We recorded<br />
several albums that year, which was, again, very lucrative. At the time we were paid, I<br />
think, something like $40 an hour to record, which for us was really big time.<br />
Q: In those days that was a lot <strong>of</strong> money.<br />
A: You played 20 and you took 10 <strong>of</strong>f. Those were the union regulations. So essentially we<br />
were getting a dollar a minute to record.<br />
Q: Was this classical music?<br />
A: <strong>The</strong> wind ensemble is a small band, so we were playing band music and some orchestral<br />
transcriptions. <strong>The</strong> whole wind ensemble concept was started by Frederick Fennell at the<br />
Eastman School. Now everybody, including KU, has a wind ensemble.<br />
Q: You went to the same place for your doctorate. Did you just continue on?<br />
A: No, I didn’t. After my masters, I was drafted. Those were the days <strong>of</strong> the draft. So I<br />
spent two years defending you all from the godless hoards <strong>of</strong> Communist invaders as a<br />
member <strong>of</strong> the Army.<br />
Q: Were you in the band?<br />
A: Actually, it’s a long story. After I finished at Eastman with a master’s, I went on a tour<br />
with a USO show to Europe. While we were in Stuttgart I auditioned for the Seventh<br />
Army Symphony, which was in existence at that time there. <strong>The</strong>y said, “All right, when<br />
you get drafted, let us know and we will requisition you and you will come here.” So I<br />
went through basic training and notified them that I was in. Typical Army, I was<br />
assigned as a clerk typist in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, at a missile site. So I was there for<br />
a while and then I manipulated the system, because I knew as a clerk typist I knew what<br />
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to do, and ended up in the post band at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. <strong>The</strong>n when things were<br />
really going nicely at Fort Sill—I was going to play in the orchestra, I was in a dance<br />
band, the duty was good—all <strong>of</strong> a sudden my orders came through for the Seventh Army<br />
Symphony. So <strong>of</strong>f I went to Stuttgart. And right after I got there, they folded the<br />
symphony and assigned me to the Seventh Army Band. All this happened within two<br />
years time. I don’t know what started this question.<br />
Q: I asked you if you were in the band in the Army.<br />
A: Yes, eventually. I was a clerk typist in the first job, then a bandsman in the second job,<br />
and an orchestra player in the third job and a bandsman in the fourth job, all in the space<br />
<strong>of</strong> two years.<br />
Q: Did you have a chance to see some <strong>of</strong> Europe while you were there?<br />
A: Yes, I was selected to play in a band that was in Mons, Belgium. It was some kind <strong>of</strong><br />
competition, and I was imported as a ringer. I played in the band because they brought in<br />
some players to make it better. Another time the 7 th Army Band spent a week on duty in<br />
Heidelberg. I also got to Paris on leave. I was only there nine months but I got to see a<br />
little <strong>of</strong> Europe.<br />
Q: You weren’t married at this time were you?<br />
A: No, I was not.<br />
Q: So when you came back, is that when you went back to Eastman?<br />
A: No. I was lucky. I was in Germany applying for jobs in the United States, unavailable<br />
for interviews and unavailable for auditions. But I was hired by reason <strong>of</strong> my resume and<br />
a tape recording that I sent <strong>of</strong> my playing. I was hired by East Texas College in<br />
Commerce, Texas, which is now Texas A & M at Commerce, a school <strong>of</strong> 5,000 in a town<br />
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<strong>of</strong> 5,000. I was there for two years. That was enough. I was teaching all the woodwinds.<br />
I was teaching music ed methods courses. I was teaching band and orchestra<br />
organization and administration. I was teaching music appreciation. It was a school in<br />
which a full load was considered five courses. If you were teaching “applied music”, in<br />
other words an instrument, that was equated at two to one. So in order to have a full load<br />
as an applied teacher, you had to teach 30 hours a week. On top <strong>of</strong> that, the new trumpet<br />
teacher and I were both required to play in the band. I’ve got my old class schedule from<br />
those days, and I can’t believe I went through that. You started at eight in the morning<br />
and you finished at 5:30 at night. <strong>The</strong>re was time for lunch and that was it. Two years <strong>of</strong><br />
that was all I could stand. So I applied for a position on the music faculty at Baylor<br />
<strong>University</strong> and was accepted there. So I spent two years at Baylor and then went back<br />
and got the doctorate at Eastman starting in 1966.<br />
Q: So your schedule was better at Baylor.<br />
A: Oh, much better. I still taught multiple woodwinds, but I didn’t have to teach most <strong>of</strong> the<br />
other things that I was having to do at East Texas.<br />
Q: <strong>The</strong>n you went back to Eastman to get your doctorate. Were you in musical groups<br />
during that time?<br />
A: Again, I was in the orchestra and wind ensemble.<br />
Q: I don’t suppose you write a thesis when you are in music performance.<br />
A: Actually, at that school you did. My dissertation topic was A Pedagogical Analysis <strong>of</strong><br />
two Approaches to the Rose Thirty-Two Etudes for Clarinet. It’s quite a thick document,<br />
but writing such a paper is quite rare with this degree now. You have the option <strong>of</strong><br />
writing a paper or giving a recital and everybody chooses the recital. Almost nobody<br />
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writes a paper any more. Eastman was the birthplace <strong>of</strong> this degree, the Doctor <strong>of</strong><br />
Musical Arts. It was designed specifically for people who were going to teach at the<br />
college level. Obviously, if you are going to play in an orchestra, you don’t need any<br />
degree at all. Being chosen for an orchestra is based strictly on how you play. It’s like<br />
being a baseball player or a soccer player--you don’t need a degree to do that. At<br />
Eastman there was quite a heavy academic component to the D.M.A, but that is less so at<br />
other schools.<br />
Q: Did you have to write something for your master’s too?<br />
A: Yes, I wrote a paper, which was called as “essay”. It amounted to a major research<br />
paper, essentially.<br />
Q: <strong>The</strong>n you gave recitals too in connection with your degree.<br />
A: Right. And lecture recitals, which were a combination <strong>of</strong> performance and research and<br />
presentation <strong>of</strong> your research before you play the piece. I did one on the Copland clarinet<br />
concerto.<br />
Q: Were you married at this time?<br />
A: Yes. Actually, I met Linda on the aforementioned USO show. She was also on that<br />
show.<br />
Q: Playing the marimba?<br />
A: Right. We were touring Europe and getting to know each other. It was just<br />
happenstance. We stayed in contact during the Army years. <strong>The</strong>n when I took the job at<br />
East Texas, which was right after the Army, she happened to be going to North Texas<br />
State, which was 90 miles away. So we got together on weekends and then when she<br />
graduated, we got married.<br />
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Q: Was she originally from Texas?<br />
A: She was born in Georgia and moved to Texas when she was nine. She graduated from<br />
Longview High School and went to North Texas and got a bachelor’s degree in piano.<br />
When I went to Eastman the second time, she went along, <strong>of</strong> course, and she got a<br />
master’s degree from Eastman in music theory.<br />
Q: After you got your Ph.D., what did you do?<br />
A: I was hired at Long Beach State College in Long Beach, California, teaching clarinet and<br />
saxophone and some music theory too. <strong>The</strong>n after one year I got a call from my former<br />
teacher at Michigan State who said, “I am going to take a sabbatical leave. Would you be<br />
willing to come back to Michigan State for a year to fill in for me? I jumped at that<br />
chance. So we went back to East Lansing and spent a year there. <strong>The</strong>n the job opened up<br />
at KU. I thought, “It is more <strong>of</strong> a traditional situation than at Long Beach. It’s a big state<br />
school with a woodwind quintet, and it doesn’t involve teaching the saxophone.” It just<br />
looked like a good thing to me. So I applied and came here.<br />
Q: What year was that?<br />
A: 1970<br />
Q: Were you in Murphy? That’s where music is.<br />
A: Right.<br />
Q: What was your title when you came to KU?<br />
A: Assistant pr<strong>of</strong>essor.<br />
Q: What courses were you teaching?<br />
A: I taught clarinet and music appreciation at the beginning. I didn’t have to do the<br />
classroom teaching, but I really liked classroom. It’s a wonderful balance for the-one-on-<br />
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one that you do with the clarinet. So I taught music appreciation for several years, and<br />
then they trusted me to teach a music history course for music majors. That went well,<br />
and it just kept expanding it. I ended up teaching all three—now it’s four—<br />
undergraduate music major courses in the music history area, then also several graduate<br />
classes, both genre classes like Symphony and Chamber Music and also period classes,<br />
such as classical, romantic, 20 th century.<br />
Q: Was this music appreciation course that you taught for nonmajors?<br />
A: Yes<br />
Q: I took a class something like that in college. It was really interesting. Did you originate<br />
any <strong>of</strong> the courses that you taught?<br />
A: Yes. I originated a two-semester sequence <strong>of</strong> graduate seminarw for doctoral candidates<br />
in clarinet performance. As for music history, the chamber music course had probably<br />
been taught it sometime in the past, but it hadn’t been taught recently when I started<br />
<strong>of</strong>fering it. <strong>The</strong> other courses were pretty much rotated so that all the students had a<br />
chance to take them on a rotational basis.<br />
Q: You played in musical groups while you were here.<br />
Q: Right. I played in the <strong>The</strong> <strong>Kansas</strong> Woodwinds, which used to be called the <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
Woodwind Quintet. We added the saxophone pr<strong>of</strong>essor, so it is now called the <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
Woodwinds. It was a standard performing group for my whole career here. Also, when I<br />
came there was a group called the Little Symphony directed by Dean Gorton, which was<br />
disbanded when he retired. Those were the ensembles that were formal. <strong>The</strong>re were lots<br />
<strong>of</strong> other chamber music combinations that were put together for one reason or another.<br />
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For example, I toured twice in Costa Rica with a clarinet-cello-piano trio composed <strong>of</strong><br />
KU faculty.<br />
Q: <strong>The</strong>n you played solos too.<br />
A: Yes, solo recitals every year.<br />
Q: That’s part <strong>of</strong> the job and what you do instead <strong>of</strong> writing books, I suppose.<br />
A: Exactly. In the promotion and tenure guidelines the designation is “research/creative<br />
activity.” So you do either traditional research or some kind <strong>of</strong> artistic endeavor such as<br />
performance, painting, sculpture, etc.<br />
Q: You played some concerts with your wife, didn’t you?<br />
A: Right. Most faculty recitals I split with her. Linda is a world class marimbist who has an<br />
international reputation. At one time she toured the country for Columbia Artists on the<br />
Community Concert Series. Most recently, she has played in Warsaw , Prague, and<br />
Vilnius, Lithuania. She has that sort <strong>of</strong> career. I was glad to have her as part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
recitals.<br />
Q: You have children.<br />
A: Right. Mark is in Washington, D.C., and Kim is in Springfield, Missouri.<br />
Q: Did you ever have sabbaticals?<br />
A: I didn’t miss a sabbatical. Actually, I could have had one more. But I took four. This<br />
gave me the opportunity to really be a pr<strong>of</strong>essional musician. I didn’t have to meet<br />
classes. I could just go out and perform. So I used the sabbaticals to tour and play<br />
recitals in as many places as I could. It was very rewarding and something I needed to<br />
do. <strong>The</strong> situation for faculty is more flexible now. It is possible to leave and be gone for<br />
two or three weeks performing, but for most <strong>of</strong> my career that was not an option.<br />
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Q: Probably not if you are teaching classes. Where did you play recitals? Was this at<br />
colleges?<br />
A: Colleges and universities. This is where my network was. I was programming for<br />
audiences who knew something about music, rather than just general audiences, for<br />
whom you would program quite differently. I was programming really straight classical<br />
concerts and the university was the most logical place to perform.<br />
Q: Was that places in this country?<br />
A: Also I have played in Costa Rica and Lithuania, Portugal, in addition to what I did in the<br />
Army. So I have gotten out <strong>of</strong> the country some too.<br />
Q: Are those good audiences too?<br />
A: On, yes, wonderful. In Costa Rica they are just hungry for live music. I went down there<br />
as a member <strong>of</strong> a trio twice and then twice more as a member <strong>of</strong> the <strong>Kansas</strong> woodwinds.<br />
Especially when we got out <strong>of</strong> San Jose and into the countryside, the people flocked to<br />
hear live music. So they were very appreciative.<br />
Q: Has the music department changed during the years you’ve been here?<br />
A: I think the university has changed.<br />
Q: <strong>The</strong> university has gotten a whole lot bigger.<br />
A: I would say that the music department has gotten somewhat bigger. Structurally, it has<br />
changed a lot. When I came we had a very arcane system in which every little area in<br />
music had its own department. <strong>The</strong>re was a department <strong>of</strong> music theory, a department <strong>of</strong><br />
music history, a department <strong>of</strong> wind and percussion. <strong>The</strong>y all had two, three, four or five<br />
faculty members in them. It was very unusual and very ineffectual.<br />
Q: I would think so.<br />
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A: In the course <strong>of</strong> time we tried different things. For one, we combined all the music<br />
performance areas together with voice, piano, winds and strings, all under one rubic. <strong>The</strong><br />
remaining little fiefdoms continued because nobody wanted to give up their little sphere<br />
<strong>of</strong> influence. We finally did the logical thing and united as a department <strong>of</strong> music under<br />
Stanley Shumway, who was the first chairman under that configuration.<br />
Q: Did that include both vocal and instrumental?<br />
A: Yes, all the musicians then were finally together under one umbrella, which was a much<br />
more logical administrative unit. Later we added what had been the Department <strong>of</strong><br />
Dance, so we now have the Department <strong>of</strong> Music and Dance. <strong>The</strong> other major change<br />
was that music education used to be in the School <strong>of</strong> Education before moving to the<br />
School <strong>of</strong> Fine Arts a few years ago. Now we music and dance and music education all<br />
together in one unit, which makes a whole lot <strong>of</strong> sense.<br />
Q: Do you have more students now than when you came?<br />
A: Actually, the apex for me was much earlier in my career when there were lots more<br />
instrumental music majors.<br />
Q: Oh, really.<br />
A: <strong>The</strong>re was a time when I could just hardly handle everybody. But then the pendulum<br />
kind <strong>of</strong> shifted to making more money and fewer instrumentalists wanted to go into<br />
public school music or take a chance on a performance career. Now the pendulum is<br />
swinging back. I think there are more music students than there used to be. It involves a<br />
lot <strong>of</strong> recruiting. Recruiting is a very big part <strong>of</strong> any job in the music performance area,<br />
particularly in the winds, where the competition for students is very, very keen. <strong>The</strong>re<br />
seem to be lots and lots <strong>of</strong> voice and piano students. But particularly with the wind<br />
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instruments and the strings, every school is after the same small number <strong>of</strong> talented<br />
students, just like in basketball.<br />
Q: How do you find the good students?<br />
A: <strong>The</strong>y are in high school all-state bands. You can get rosters <strong>of</strong> all-state bands in <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
and surrounding states. <strong>The</strong>y pretty much tell you who the cream <strong>of</strong> the crop is in any<br />
given state.<br />
Q: Were you ever involved with the music camps here?<br />
A: When I came the music camp was a tremendous recruiting tool. It was six weeks long,<br />
and in those six weeks you got to know those kids really well. You able to make a real<br />
impact on them, and they also learned about you and how you played and taught. It used<br />
to be that you could walk into any music classroom and say, “How many <strong>of</strong> you kids<br />
came here because <strong>of</strong> the camp?” and about half <strong>of</strong> the hands would go up. Well, that<br />
began to change. It went from being a six-week camp to being, I think, a four-week<br />
camp.<br />
Q: I think when Rachel went it was four weeks.<br />
A: <strong>The</strong>n it became two two-week camps and then it became two one-week camps and now it<br />
is a one-week camp. It has just shriveled over the years. So it is no longer much <strong>of</strong> a<br />
recruiting tool.<br />
Q: Why do you think that happened?<br />
A: I’d rather not say.<br />
Q: Okay. Do you think students are as good now in music as they used to be?<br />
A: Yes, I would say so. <strong>The</strong> expectations are different. This is something I was going to get<br />
into. Probably you are going to address it later on. Grade inflation thing has altered<br />
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student expectations. I think this came about at the same time that we instituted<br />
formalized student evaluations <strong>of</strong> teaching. I am a very big supporter <strong>of</strong> student<br />
evaluations, by the way, but it did change the dynamics. When I was in school, you<br />
respected the pr<strong>of</strong>essor and you had no idea <strong>of</strong> being any kind <strong>of</strong> a friend or having any<br />
sort <strong>of</strong> a relationship with them at all. You never questioned the grade, because that’s the<br />
way it was. Nowadays, I think pr<strong>of</strong>essors not only want to be respected, they want to be<br />
loved and are deathly afraid <strong>of</strong> what students might say on the student evaluations. I<br />
think it has had a real effect on the grading scale. When I came as a new faculty member,<br />
I remember going into a music history meeting and saying, “Tell me about grading here.”<br />
For the most distinguished pr<strong>of</strong>essor in the group, the grade point average for his classes<br />
was 2.0, meaning he gave an equal amount <strong>of</strong> As and Bs and Ds and Fs. <strong>The</strong> other<br />
pr<strong>of</strong>essors in the department had class grade averages <strong>of</strong> 2.2 to 2.4. Nowadays if you<br />
graded like that you would just be crucified by the students. Even though the students are<br />
still very good, they really are used to being treated with kid gloves when it comes to<br />
evaluation. So nowadays in an academic class, what used to be a C is now a B, I think.<br />
Q: Have you been on university committees?<br />
A: Yes, I’ve been active on all levels <strong>of</strong> committees, the department, EPPC, (Education<br />
Policies and Procedures) and Promotion and Tenure, Faculty Evaluation, Faculty<br />
Executive Committee, ,etc. At the School level, I have been on Promotion and Tenure<br />
and the committee which evaluates summer research grant proposals. At the university<br />
level, I was on Promotion and Tenure for one year filling in for someone, as well as<br />
Academic Policies and Procedures. I was on the <strong>University</strong> Council at one point, and I<br />
was on the Calendar Committee for a number <strong>of</strong> years.<br />
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Q: Have you had outstanding former students who have gone on to greater things?<br />
A: Yes, I’ve had some good students. One is playing associate principal clarinet in the<br />
Dallas Symphony, one is in the Tucson Symphony, and another had a successful<br />
freelance career in Houston. One has had a very distinguished career as a band and wind<br />
ensemble conductor. He’s now at North Texas, which has one <strong>of</strong> the biggest band<br />
programs in the country. Some students have been successful in the military bands, such<br />
as the Air Force band, for example. One <strong>of</strong> my former students is general manager <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Minnesota Symphony, which is a big job. All these people are making more money than<br />
I ever did. So I don’t know whether that makes me a success or a failure as a teacher.<br />
I’ve had some kids who have really done very well.<br />
Q: Have you belonged to pr<strong>of</strong>essional organizations?<br />
A: International Clarinet Society and similar groups. <strong>The</strong> Music Educators National<br />
Conference, the Music Teachers National Association, etc.<br />
Q; Have you held <strong>of</strong>fices in any <strong>of</strong> these?<br />
A: I’ve been the state coordinator for a couple <strong>of</strong> them. I’ve never wanted to take on a<br />
national <strong>of</strong>fice.<br />
Q: Have you been involved in community activities?<br />
A: Yes, through church work particularly, doing various and sundry charitable sorts <strong>of</strong><br />
things. I’m on the family selection committee for Habitat for Humanity, for example.<br />
Q: I believe you and Linda were founding members <strong>of</strong> the Lawrence Youth Symphony.<br />
A: That was founded by the Lawrence Friends <strong>of</strong> Music and was going strong before we<br />
came to Lawrence. But we were active in the Friends <strong>of</strong> Music for quite some time, and I<br />
was heavily involved with the Youth Symphony for a number <strong>of</strong> years.<br />
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Q: Does this take kids from different schools in the city and put them together in an<br />
orchestra?<br />
A: String instrument are difficult to play, and the result is that the bands at the junior high<br />
schools normally sound better than the orchestras at the same school. Besides which, the<br />
orchestras are smaller and it is not possible to have wind players in them. Consequently,<br />
we were losing string players at the junior high level. <strong>The</strong> Youth Symphony, which<br />
combined students from all the junior high schools, provided these students with the<br />
experience <strong>of</strong> hearing what a full orchestra with a large string and wind section could<br />
really sound like. All <strong>of</strong> sudden they found out, “Oh, this is what orchestra is all about. I<br />
guess I’ll stick with it.” So I think we saved a lot <strong>of</strong> string players through that.<br />
Q: Do they still have that?<br />
A: Yes, the Youth Symphony is still going on.<br />
Q: You played in the Lawrence City Band also.<br />
A: I was in the Lawrence Symphony Orchestra, when that existed, and the Lawrence<br />
Chamber Players for a long time and the Lawrence City Band for a long time.<br />
Q: I like to go and listen to that.<br />
A: And I’ve played in the <strong>Kansas</strong> City Chamber Orchestra for a number <strong>of</strong> years, have<br />
played <strong>of</strong>ten with the Topeka Symphony and I will play with them again this fall.<br />
Q: With all these things that you do, how much do you practice?<br />
A: I’ve always practiced almost every day, and I continue to do so because I would like to<br />
keep playing. <strong>The</strong>re are things that come along, and I would like to be in shape when<br />
they come along. I practiced for a couple <strong>of</strong> hours before I came here today to talk with<br />
you. I’ll continue to do that.<br />
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Q: What do you plan to do in retirement?<br />
A: We will travel more. I will go to Europe with Linda this summer.<br />
Q: Is this to play?<br />
A: No, this will just be to see what I want to see. I like history and would like to see Greece<br />
and Rome. I am able to finally read things that I have not had a chance to read. So<br />
there’s now free time for me to do that. We have a summer cottage in Michigan, where<br />
we spent half the summer and all the fall. We just got back to town a couple weeks ago.<br />
We have the option to stay up there for an extended period <strong>of</strong> time if we would like. I do<br />
want to do some volunteer things.<br />
Q: Do you have grandchildren?<br />
A: Four grandchildren.<br />
Q: What is you assessment <strong>of</strong> KU or the Music Department, past, present, hopes for the<br />
future, that kind <strong>of</strong> thing?<br />
A: Well, I think KU is a very good school. I think that the national rankings that it gets are<br />
probably appropriate. I don’t feel that it’s being slighted. I think it is where it belongs,<br />
as far as the national rankings. Some schools have a whole lot more money than we<br />
have, the <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> Texas being a classical example. Money gets results. Money<br />
buys faculty, money buys equipment, money implements and supports programs. <strong>Kansas</strong><br />
is not a state where the average citizen is particularly supportive <strong>of</strong> higher education, in<br />
my opinion. I think a lot <strong>of</strong> Kansans have only high school diplomas or less. It’s an<br />
agrarian, rural state. It’s not a state that places a high emphasis on research and higher<br />
education. I think that’s a weakness. I don’t think we are ever going to have the<br />
financial resources that some states provide.<br />
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<strong>The</strong> music department is also very, very good. <strong>The</strong>re are a lot <strong>of</strong> wonderfully<br />
talented people there. We tend to lose some <strong>of</strong> them. We have lost a couple to Florida<br />
and to other places, one recently to Indiana <strong>University</strong>. <strong>The</strong>se are the schools that are a<br />
step up from us, Florida State, Indiana, Michigan. So that’s where our really talented<br />
faculty tend to go, unless they decide they really like Lawrence and want to stay here.<br />
Fortunately, this has been the case, and there are some great faculty in Music and Dance.<br />
Q: Is there anything else you’d like to add?<br />
A: I feel like when I came here there was a little more family feeling among the faculty.<br />
Now many faculty are very, very focused on achieving what they need to achieve in order<br />
to get promotion and tenure. I think the P & T requirements are more rigorous than they<br />
used to be. It takes a tremendous amount <strong>of</strong> effort to meet those requirements, which<br />
leaves less time for interacting with your colleagues.<br />
I think one <strong>of</strong> the major changes in the university in my time here has been a<br />
much greater emphasis on teaching in promotion and tenure decisions. When I came,<br />
teaching received lip service, but research was the dominant factor.<br />
Q: But you don’t really do much research in your field.<br />
A: In the case <strong>of</strong> musicology and in the case <strong>of</strong> music education and music theory, research<br />
is very important, just as it is university wide. When I was on UCPT a number <strong>of</strong> years<br />
ago, it was evident that research was far more important than teaching in those<br />
discussions. In those days we didn’t even have people do any teaching when they came<br />
to interview for a job. <strong>The</strong>y didn’t teach. <strong>The</strong>y interviewed, they performed, they left.<br />
Nowadays we get them in the classroom, we get them in the studio. We watch them<br />
teach live on the spot.<br />
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Q: Oh, really? Before they are hired?<br />
A: No question. <strong>The</strong> advent <strong>of</strong> the Center for Teaching Excellence and all their great<br />
programs is indicative <strong>of</strong> the new emphasis that we are placing on teaching. <strong>The</strong><br />
teaching, I think, is better than it’s ever been at this university, and that is probably true<br />
nationwide. <strong>The</strong>n on the other side <strong>of</strong> the coin, evaluation <strong>of</strong> learning is probably less<br />
rigorous than it has ever been, due to grade inflation. <strong>The</strong> teaching is outstanding, but<br />
are the students learning more? When students tell me that they already have a very good<br />
idea <strong>of</strong> what the questions on the exam will be, I wonder how much diligent study is<br />
necessary to prepare for it. Great teaching is taking place. Is great levning going on? I<br />
don’t know the answer to that question.<br />
Q: Do you think students are less prepared for college than they used to be?<br />
A: Not is music. Probably in English and anything involving writing skills, communications<br />
skills, I would guess that they are probably less well prepared.<br />
Q: Thank you very much.<br />
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