young playwrights, poets, who had a vision of a different kind of theatre, broughttheir pieces to places like ours, and we helped put it up. And I truly believe thatpeople like Irene and Rosalyn Drexler, and many others, felt that there was acollaboration. It doesn't mean that all these people weren't very strong men andwomen <strong>with</strong> very strong egoes, and thought of themselves very much as writers. Sothat we mounted the pieces and added things to them, and as they became more andmore successful they began more and more wanting to have their way, and of coursethey did. And we wanted more and more to help them become their way. As thosedirectors like Torn and myself, like Jacques Levy and a few others - Joe Chaikin - aswe became more and more practised and better, we got stronger and stronger... I thinkwhat eventually happened in about ten or fifteen was that they became reallyseparated out as directors and writers, and people like Irene said the hell <strong>with</strong> this, Ican direct my own pieces. And Edward Albee for instance has always felt he needsheavy control of directors. So the answer to what you asked is that, yes you're right ina way, but on the other hand it's not so, because as we all grew up, and becamestronger and stronger in our work, we got better and better at it, and wanted to havemore control.LK: Well he broke away from the Ridiculous theatre too. The real genius of thatwhole group was Charles Ludlam. I got to do Gorilla Queen because it was supposedto be done at the Ridiculous, but then Ron Tavel brought it over to us, and said doyou want to do this? Now I didn't know how the hell I was going to do it, but it wasvery good.SJB: Were there ever real tensions between writers and directors? I heard thatRochelle Owens hated O'Horgan's version of Futz ...LK: Do you know the stories about Rochelle Owens? She did a wonderful play aboutEskimoes called The String Game. And I didn't intrude on it. I did the stage directionsand it ended up very funny and very successful, about a bunch of Eskimoes and anItalian priest and a Nazi. Wonderful play, very funny. And that was very successfuland I did her second play called Istanboul, and that was <strong>with</strong> Florence Tarlow, whowon an Obie for that role ... And it was very wonderful, wild, Crystal Field played apart in it... And then we were planning her third play, which was Futz! And I wasgetting ready to cast it, and I called up an actor and said would you be interested inplaying the lead in Rochelle's new play, and he said I am! We're going into rehearsal<strong>with</strong> it. And I said what are you talking about? (I'm blocking his name totally) And hesaid I'm doing it at La Mama. I said I'm doing it at <strong>Judson</strong>! And what I found out wasthat Ellen said to - she didn't STEAL the play - Ellen asked Rochelle for a play,Rochelle gave her Futz!, and of course Ellen said we'll do it here, and I'll take it toEurope. So Rochelle who is, always was, and remains, as far as I know, anopportunistic bitch, but a wonderful writer, gave her that play <strong>with</strong>out ever telling me.I was furious, Al was furious, and we just closed down the production. Now ithappens that Torn did a marvellous job, gorgeoous production ... Mine would have
een very different from Torn's, but I think it would've been good too because it's agood play. That was Rochelle. I didn't talk to her for years ....SJB pushes issue about whether writers resented at all what was done <strong>with</strong> theirplays:LK: We had big fights and rages and then we made up. Don't quote me calling her abitch. She is one, but. .. Everyone has their Rochelle Owens story. I mean she's fromanother planet. Well she pays her social now.It was that or be a bourgeoishousewife ...LK: I worked very well <strong>with</strong> him. Oh no, I had heavy trouble <strong>with</strong> Al after he nearlydied of a cerebral aneurysm, and after that... I didn't realise that he was still sick, andwasn't in full control. Something happened, about a play <strong>with</strong> a theatre that we weregoing to do, and he just fucked up. We've made up since, we're good friends againnow, always have been really. He was best man at my wedding, he's my daughter'sgodfather, we had this great partnership together for years ... But Al has people whoare very loyal to him, and he also has people who really hate him. Irene for one,Madeleine Kahn being another, the actress.SJB: At what stage did you leave <strong>Judson</strong>? When you founded Theatre for the NewCity?LK: That was 71, 72, I'm not quite sure. I left <strong>Judson</strong> because it was over. I found outyears later that I was actually manipulated out, that it was a political thing <strong>with</strong>in thechurch ... The movement itself was over, the <strong>Judson</strong> Poets' Theatre was more andmore becoming, in the seventies, AI's oratorios, which were very popular. And hewanted to direct them, and I never felt that Al was much of a director, because Aldirects a play by sitting and looking at the script, the printed word, he'd never look atthe stage, and he'd say 'Larry why isn't it interesting?' and I'd say because you're notlooking! (We were so close I could say those kind of things) And ... I wanted my owntheatre. Fully my own theatre, not the <strong>Judson</strong> Poets' Theatre. And a year after I builtit, raised the money and built it, I left. Because I was not happy <strong>with</strong> some of thepeople I had brought on... And it was for me a very critical point in my life. Instead offighting for a change, I did leave New York for about two years. I carne back again, Ihad to corne back. But I went very much into regional theatre, and kept corning backand doing occasional shows at <strong>Judson</strong> and elsewhere.