Coffey, Dennis 03.09 - University of Massachusetts Lowell Libraries

UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
“FROM CREATION TO OPERATION: TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS AT LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK”
INFORMANT: DENNIS COFFEY
INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI
DATE: JULY 11, 2003
D = DENNIS
A = ALI
Tape 03.09
A: So this is interview with Dennis Coffey. And today is July 11, 2003. And Dennis
first a little bit of background information. Where and when were you born?
D: I was born in Lowell, Massachusetts in 1948.
A: Okay. And what were your parents’ occupations?
D: Well my father was in sales. Probably before he retired, automobile sales and so
forth. (A: Okay) Actually then actually he did some sort of state service; worked with
the Department of Employment and Training. I think that’s what they call it now. In the
old days it had some other name. (A: Yah, yah) Yah. And so he did get ah, get some
state service in before he fully retired. And my mother worked for the Air Force right
down on Hanscom (A: Um) for a number of years. And they’re both Lowell natives.
And one Irish, and one French-Canadian.
A: Oh, okay. So you had the best sides of the whole city.
D: That’s right. Yah, of the United Nations.
A: And now your uncle is Red Ouellette.
D: That’s right. That’s right.
A: And that would be on your mother’s side.
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D: On my mother’s side. That’s right.
A: Okay. And where did you go to school Dennis?
D: Ah, well I went to Saint Margaret’s School in Lowell, (A: Yah) and then Keith
Academy. (A: Okay) And then from there I went to Northern Essex Community
College, (A: Oh okay) in Haverhill, or Bradford at the time. And then from there I went
to Saint Anslim College in Manchester. (A: Okay) And it was there that I took up an
interest in urban affairs and things of that nature. And Bob [Manier] was up there at the
time. He was Professor of Geography, the Chairman of the Geography Department. But
Bob was also I think the Senate President there in New Hampshire, (A: Oh) and very
active in a lot of different political things, and so forth. And he had Jim Minnoch
teaching up there. I think Jim had come from, Jim had worked on, on the Fanueil Hall
Project, and he worked in another project around the country like that. So he had a little
bit of fame and reputation, (A: Yah) and some, more reputation sometimes. But, so Jim
taught some courses up there. So I, although I majored in sociology, I did take some of
the courses in Captain Bob’s department. And that kind of sparked my interest in that
kind of activity.
A: Yah.
D: And from there you know, was able to hook up with some of the planners, and in the
event involving City Development Authority. (A: Okay. And) And Jim I guess, Jim
Minnoch had had some role in the creation of that [unclear].
A: Yah. Yah he was the first director of it.
D: Right. That’s right. And ah (--)
A: Now was he still there when you?
D: No. No, Jim Silk had taken over (A: Okay) at the time that I was hired. But
although I had an uncle, two uncles involved in the city at the time, both Red Ouellette of
course, and Reggie was at the Redevelopment Authority, (A: Yah, yah), or LRA. And
that was being merged into the CDA. (A: Okay) You know I try to avoid those family
ties in terms of getting a job, and I got an entry level job in the Planning Department, (A:
Okay) and it was quite an exciting time.
A: Describe that excitement of (--) There must have been a sense of novelty of this, this
urban planning and the creation of the City Development Authority, which was I believe
the first of its kind in the nation to put all of the different operations, urban renewal
planning, industrial development (D: Right) all under one hat.
D: That’s right. That’s right. It was quite exciting and a unique thing. And of course I
had spoken with Jim Minnoch up at St. A’s, and he was quite excited about it and
advocated for it. And you know, from you know, a young college student to going into
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the world of work you know, it was exciting and challenging obviously. And I wasn’t, I
was obviously naïve at that point in time and kind of ignored the politics of it.
A: Okay. Yah.
D: But when I got there I realized, wow! You know, there were clearly divisions, a
planning division and a redevelopment side, and industrial development. And even
though they were under one board of directors and one executive, there really weren’t the
visions, (A: Okay) you know. And the sense that I had at the time was that the, the old
LRA crowd, including my Uncle Reggie, (A: Yah) you know, were the local guys. They
weren’t necessarily professionals in the sense of having been trained in those areas, (A:
Okay) but they brought their local expertise and experience to the job, which was
important in a Redevelopment Authority. The planners on the other hand, Jim Minnoch,
had tried to bring in professional planners. They were the professionals. They were the
elite. They were kind of snobby and stuff. And so there was this division, this rancor I
think between the two sides, which was unfortunate. (A: Yah) But on the other hand it
created a tension that perhaps had some benefits as well. Looking back you can see that
there were some benefits from that tension.
A: So like competition brings better work?
D: Umhm.
A: That kind of an idea?
D: Umhm. Umhm. Yes that’s correct. Yup.
A: And now who were some of the planners that were kind of new to town?
D: Well I remember Don Wagner (A: Okay) was the, was the Chief Planner or whatever
they called them, Planning Director, I guess. And Bruce Hall was another young fellow.
(A: Okay) There was a fellow, Maurice, and I can’t remember his last name now.
Maurice, Maurice, he was from out of town too.
A: Okay. Okay.
D: And very bright, you know I learned a lot from them. (A: Yah. Yah) Of course at
the same time that I was hired by the Board, Bob Malavich was hired by the Board. (A:
Okay) Of course Bob is still here.
A: Sure. I know.
D: You know, and Bob and I kind of grew up together in the, in the, both the political
and professional sense. And you know, so we were the, we were the new kids you know.
And then there was you know, a few of the old timers that kind of hung on. And then
there was the redevelopment group, and then the industrial development group.
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A: And tell me about the industrial development crew.
D: Well actually it wasn’t very big. When I got there, I’m trying to remember who, who
was there before Tom Markham. Maybe Tom Markham was already there. I can’t recall
now those times.
A: There was, do you remember a guy name Dan Cullinan?
D: I remember the name. I think he was kind of on the way out at the time, or
something. Yah.
A: Yah.
D: Yah, I remember that name now. Yah.
A: Because he was (--) There was that independent Industrial Development
Commission.
D: Right. That’s right. Yah.
A: And I think he was either the last, or the penultimate (D: Right) director of that.
D: Of that, yah, that’s right, and probably kind of resisted the consolidation and so forth.
I remember the name. Never had much to do with them. I don’t really know him, but
then I remember Tom Markham coming in. And Tom Markham [unclear] and the
coverage of course was that he was fired by Nixon.
A: Oh really? Oh I didn’t know that.
D: Yah, he worked for the USEDA, Economic Development Administration. (A: Okay)
Of course he got that from Kennedy. (A: Okay) And so Nixon came in and said you
know, “Who can we get rid of?” This guy’s got Kennedy next to his name. You know
he’s gone.
A: I see.
D: So Tom always [wore that as his badge of courage] and he was fired by Nixon.
A: That wasn’t like a permanent civil servant exit? Position?
D: You mean his federal job? (A: Yah) Probably not, it was an appointed job I’m sure.
They were all political appointed jobs, and he was, he was able to be fired. And then he
came and worked in the city. Tom and I did a lot of work together. (A: Okay) Not in
the early days, but later on. (A: Okay) Because first I was in the Planning Department.
And then I had a brief tenure up at the National Regional Planning Agency. (A: Oh
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eally) I went out there for about six months. And that was when, and this is where we
start to get to some of the issues that you were talking about a few minutes ago. Paul
Cronin was the Congressman. (A: Okay) And out of the blue I get a call from Paul
Cronin’s office asking me to come down and see him on a Saturday morning. [Unclear]
this was all about. So I went in and saw him. I’d never known him, you know. And he
asked me if I’d be willing to come back to Lowell. I said well you know, “Doing what?”
You know. He had secured some funding for the Central City Committee. (A: Okay)
And so that was my return to Lowell from my brief stint up in Nashua. And Paul wanted
to make sure that the Center City Committee follow through on some of the things that
you know, we had worked on, I had worked on when I was in the Planning Department
with the National Park stuff. And you know, we wanted to use that as a tool, or someone
who was familiar with CDA, you know working to that group, and also had a sensitivity
to the Park, because he was very dedicated to it. And so you know, I went home and I
told my wife. And she said, “What are you nuts? You just started a job. You’re going to
come back. You know what the politics is like here and everything.” And I said, “Ah,
well you know.” And I did of course. (A: Yah) But in those early planning days, I
started in ’69 you know, and I think I went to Nashua, I don’t even remember the years
anymore. I think I went to Nashua around ’72, ’73, something like that, but it was for
like six months. So, but in those early days you know, like I said, there was this tension
between Redevelopment who wanted to tear everything down, fill in the canals, and run
the Connector right into downtown. And then there was the Planning Group that said,
“Well gee you know, we have these rather historical buildings, architecturally pleasing
buildings. We have neighborhoods that have potential to be kind of developed from the
ground up rather than them tearing them down.” And you know that was the benefit of
bringing in these outside planners, professional planners. And then the young kids like
Bob and myself you know, Bob was a planner with architectural background, and me
with my kind of urban planning, urban development background, you know we saw the
value in looking at what was here rather than looking elsewhere to say, “What can we
bring in?” And you know, and I think it was Brad Morse, Paul Cronin and Paul Tsongas
who ultimately saw the value in that approach as opposed to the old-fashioned urban
renewal approach. So those tensions existed. And yah I remember it wasn’t too long
after I started working in city hall that Jack Kerouac died. (A: Okay, yah) And so a
couple of the guys, this Maurice that I can’t remember his last name now, walked up the
street and went to the funeral, because it was up at ah (--)
A: St. Jean Baptist.
D: Yah. And you know, some of the Redevelopment Authority guys said, “Nah, he was
a drunken bum, he was no good.” He was this, he was that you know, and of course now
we have a Park you know. [Laughs]
A: Yah, right, right.
D: And indeed some of the people who was telling, who were telling me what a drunken
bum he was, they remember as a kid and all that kind of stuff, because my mother
remembered him as a kid, later on became, became tour guides for Kerouac tours.
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A: Well your Uncle Reggie is very ah (--)
D: That’s right. He was one who was telling me about what a bum he was, you know.
A: I see. I see.
D: And so it’s fascinating to see the evolution that occurred. And I think, I think it really
did occur when Frank Keefe came to as a Planning Director. (A: Okay) You know he
saw these divisions, and of course Frank, very aggressive, very positive, very sure of
himself obviously, and with good cause. And one of the things he realized was, that he
saw this division and he said this isn’t good, because the redevelopment guys have a lot
to offer, the planning people have a lot to offer. We need to get them together. And so
periodically, once a month or so, not in any strict schedule, he’d get all the group together
and we’d just talk about things. And it was just amazing when we sat down and talked
and listened to each other how much common interest there really was. And I think
Frank helped to turn the corner within the CDA, and ah, at least to the staff level. Now
the CDA Board history, that’s a whole other thing, you know, which, which took a bad
turn I think, you know? But you know, and then Taupier came along and wiped him out.
A: Right. Right.
D: And at the time that was probably the right thing. You know, I think the CDA Board
was too embroiled in their own politics to have been a continuing force. But what you’re
trying to get to of course is the Park. And ah (--)
A: But you know, I love to hear those stories of kind of the politics of that (D: That
time, yah), I don’t know if you want to call it the pre-Park era, or (D: Right, that’s right)
whatever. So now you were talking about the divisions between like the planners and the
LRA holdovers. (A: Right. Yup) And do you remember specific instances where there
was friction?
D: Well like I said, you know, there was, there was within the LRA side of the house
they wanted to do more of the “cement city.” They wanted to tear down more of the
Acre. They wanted to really fill in the canals. (A: Yah) The Connector Extension (A:
Okay) that they thought was great. And you know, the planners on the other hand you
know, saw a different perspective, a review of things. And it was around that time of
course that Pat Mogan was involved with the Model Cities Neighborhood, (A: umhm)
along with Jack Tavares and some wonderful people over there. And so Bob and myself,
Bob Malavich and myself started spending some time with Pat.
A: You did.
D: Yah, and kind of unofficially and you know, learning more about what he was
thinking and his concept, and it was consistent with what we were thinking and doing,
and trying to do. And you know we were doing all of these studies. We had each got a
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grant, [unclear] planning and studying grant. And you know, we had all of these studies,
we were producing all of these reports. But you know, Bob and I were scratching our
heads you know, maybe they go on the shelf. No one ever reads them, and if they do
read them they don’t do anything about them, you know. How are we going to get this
stuff from paper into the real world? And Pat Mogan became kind of our, our ally in
terms of you know, what can we really do to get the community involved, the get people
involved, to get people to understand what the planning process is. And how you take it
from planning into implementation. And so we were kind of running parallel path and
then we kind of tied them together. Again we still had resistance within the CDA in
terms of the staff, in terms of, “Oh that’s never going to go anywhere,” you know, and
“Redevelopment is the way to go.” Hale/Howard renewal project was hot at the time,
and so forth. And you know, in hindsight it was a good project. Hale/Howard was a
good project in many respects. You know, it could have been different, but you know, it
went pretty well. And but at the same time downtown was dying. The mills were dying.
You know, there was a great desire to tear down a bunch of more mills, and to you know,
kind of ignore the history and look ahead and build a modern city. And I remember, I
just remembered it now, somewhere over at the CDA, it used to be over in the library,
there was a big model of the city that was the ugliest thing. It had a big bubble over it.
Did you ever see it? I don’t know (--)
A: I’ve seen photos of it, yah.
D: Yah I don’t know where it is anymore, but thank god it’s gone.
A: The model I believe, and it must be the same one, it was called “Lowell 1970.”
D: Probably yah, yah.
A: It was done in the 50s under Charlie Zetteck.
D: Oh right! That’s right.
A: I’m sure you’ve heard of his name.
D: I remember, yes. Yah, yah, that’s right. Yah.
A: So you talked about Pat Mogan being an ally. Did Pat Mogan have the political
ability to get some things happening?
D: Pat was such a unique personality. You know he ever appeared to be politically
astute, and he was probably more politically astute than anyone in the city. You know he
kind of played the role of the bumbling professor, but oh my god what a smart man!
A: Yah. Yah.
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D: Great depth, great knowledge, but really he did have that political astuteness in terms
of who to feed stuff to and who to ignore sometimes.
A: Really.
D: Yah. I think, although Pat was never one to ignore anybody in the true sense of the
word, a true gentleman, but he knew where to invest his time and resources, and energy,
and so forth. And Pat and I, and then Bob and a few others spent a lot of time with him.
And then we were, Bob and I were of the mind that you know, we were the Planning
Department what Model Cities should do with this concept that they had, was to try to
expand it into other neighborhoods through the Planning Department. (A: Hm) Pat
realizing the situation within the CDA I think probably better than we were from the
inside, you know, didn’t see that as the appropriate mechanism. And so we were a little
disappointed in that. He brought in Gordon Marker. I don’t know if you’ve heard that
name.
A: I have.
D: Gordon Marker, and then he had an assistant.
A: Gordon Marker had an assistant?
D: Yah.
A: Who was that? Do you remember?
D: I don’t know, a young lady. I cannot remember her name. And they would come
over and spend time with us. And you know, I said to Bob, I said “Gee Bob, they’re
coming over taking our time. They’re consultants. They’re getting the big bucks, you
know, we’re getting paid a measly amount of money and we’re telling them and then they
turn around and do something with it,” you know.
A: Umhm, and they get all the credit.
D: Yah, you know. It wasn’t so much the credit as it was the process. Because now I’m
a consultant so you know, I understand it better. [Both chuckle] But it was the process.
You know, Bob and I were really committed to the Planning Department, and the CDA.
And we thought that should have been the agency, agent of change if you would. And
but because of politics, because of a lot of things, it wasn’t going to be. And Pat was
right. Pat was right in identifying you know, that you needed to do something different.
And you know, Gordon produced this early map. I’m sure you’ve seen it. You know the
Acre map, you know, with kind of sketches and stuff on it you know.
A: Kind of funny icons and things like that.
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D: Right, yah, yah, really sketchy you know. And so I complained to Pat a little bit, and
he said, he said “I understand what you’re saying, he said, but you’ve got to realize that
what we have to do and what you have to do with your life he says to me, was not let
people put fences around you.” And he said, “We can’t, we can’t make this one of your
reports. This has to be the work of the people. This has to be something you post up on
the wall and people go up and criticize, or change, or take a magic marker and mark on
it,” stuff like that. People don’t want to take your book and mark in your book, you
know. So he said, “You have to think outside the box and you have to do things
differently.”
A: Was that maybe the beginning of the end of “Planners are always right” kind of an
attitude especially in conjunction with the general citizenry?
D: Yah, yah, yah. I think, I think that’s true in Lowell anyway. (A: Yah) That you
know, he was looking to empower the people to make decisions about their
neighborhoods and their city and things like that. Whereas previously had been the
professional planner, or the Redevelopment Authority that had the political clout, or the
Industrial Development Commission that had the connections to the banking community,
and the industrial community and so forth. And now it was Pat turning to the people and
saying, “This is your community, what do you want to do with it?” And that was, that
was totally different; totally outside of the framework of a CDA, or LRA, or anything
like that. And so Pat was absolutely right in certainly aligning with us, but, but not
formally engaging us. And so what that meant was that Pat with the Model Cities’ group
was kind of an offshoot, and kind of a maverick group. So when Paul Cronin, and then
Paul Tsongas, but Paul Cronin, when I came back to the Center City Program, you know,
really got the National Park Service to start paying attention to this. (A: Yah) Because
by this time Pat had gotten these groups and they had these (--) Oh, I ran a bike tour,
historic bike tour of the Acre.
A: You did really?
D: Yah, yah, in 1972 or something. I don’t know, you know. (A: Yah) And then we
had, gosh, we advertised in the paper. I had a, not, you know, didn’t advertise, just had a
story in the paper, put a few posters up around. And we must have had two hundred
people, you know. And it was you know, we ran it out of the, we left from the JFK
Center. We had two groups and we went around the Acre. And I led one, and I forget
who else I had, someone else led the other one. And the only complaint I had was that I
went too fast.
A: Yah. Well with 100 people behind you, you know, how do you, how do you make
that work?
D: Yah, right. Right. So it was, it was interesting. It was unique. And you know, we
got Louie Eno from the local Historical Society involved, and Allen Gerson, and all of
those people. Wonderful people. And you know, some young people getting interested.
And finally you know, what the planners and the people were saying was starting to sink
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in. That you know, we do have an asset here and we have a resource. And so I hosted
the first visit from the National Park Service staff, (A: Okay) because no one else in the
CDA cared.
A: Really.
D: Yup. I met the guy. I think he came up on the train. He came from Washington. He
wasn’t from the regional office.
A: He wasn’t from the, no.
D: And I forget his name now. You know, nice, nice young man. He was just a staffer
you know, a researcher or something or other, you know.
A: Was he around for a number of years?
D: No, no. Oh no. (A: No?) No. He just came up on that one visit. I met him at the
train station, brought him over, we sat down with Pat for an hour probably, and then we
walked around town. And then we went back and I introduced him to Jim Silk and
people at the CDA. (A: Yah) And you know, we had a little brief sit-down with some
folks there. And then I walked him back to somewhere, or got him a cab, or whatever.
And he said, he said, “This is really a unique situation.” And I said, “Well yah, we think
so.” And he said, you know, “I have to go back now and right a report to my bosses.”
And he said, he said, “The thing that impressed me most is that this is a big urban city,
but we walked around and it was like a small town. And you know, “People said hello to
you.” And you know, he was really impressed with that and the community. And he
obviously went back and wrote a very positive report, because a couple of months later
Paul Cronin was able to host a Congressional panel, subcommittee of the Interior
Committee, up at city hall. Armand Lemay was the Mayor. (A: Okay) I wrote
Armand’s speech.
A: Oh really.
D: Frank, Frank Keefe said to me, he said, “I didn’t know you, I didn’t know you were
able to think in French-Canadian.” [Both laugh] You know, and Armand delivered the
speech perfectly, you know. And somewhere in that speech I had Armand say you know
we’re glad you’re here, to Congress, you know we’re glad that the National Park is taking
the interest in this, but what we’re telling you is true. This is our community. We do
have a history. We do have culture. We do have arts, and we do have this and that. You
know, and you know, we’d love to have you involved in this. But even if you don’t
come, it’s still here. We’re not inventing something,” you know. This is not Sturbridge
Village, or Plymouth Plantation. This is real, you know. And, and I forget what word we
used, but he delivered it just perfectly. And I think that peaked their interest you know,
because they said, “Oh, this isn’t just an angle to get federal money.” And that was the
real message we wanted to get across. And so we were fortunate of course that both pols
were able to carry that message back to Washington. And I think the relationship with
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the National Park Service has been outstanding. John Debow, John (A: Burchill)
Burchill, John Burchill. He just died. (A: He just passed away) Yah, I just saw that in
the paper recently.
A: We should have interviewed him, but (--)
D: Yah, oh he got away. That’s too bad.
A: So many of them. I’ve done (--)
D: And Lew? How about what was it?
A: Lew Albert is gone as well.
D: Is he?
A: Yah, he’s gone. So that’s I think the first two supers.
D: Yah, right. Right. Where’s Debow?
A: Cuyahoga.
D: Is he still there? (A: Yah, yah) Okay. Okay. I knew he liked those canals.
A: Yah, exactly.
D: Great guy.
A: Yah he’s been around for a long time. I’ve never met him.
D: Oh really. (A: No) Oh yah, he’s terrific. But you know, and I think that relationship
worked very well. Concurrently of course Dukakis came in. (A: Yup) Dukakis and
Lowell had a love affair in his early days. (A: Yah) And you know, so parallel to the
federal/city effort was the city/state effort.
A: Yah were you involved in the creation of the State Heritage Park?
D: Yah, yah, State Heritage Park. Yah, oh yah.
A: How did that come about? Do you remember your first inkling of that?
D: Gosh no, I can’t remember now. And it’s funny, it’s one of those things that it was
very critical at the time.
A: Yes.
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D: And it played a very significant role. And it was, it was really the Dukakis/Tsongas
connection that really drove that. That some of the business community of course had
been very supportive of Dukakis. He really liked the urban fabric stuff. You know, he
was a great one not for growth control, I don’t know, that term wasn’t vogue at the time,
but you know, let’s bring the investment to where the people are. Let’s stop spreading
out into the suburbs (A: Yah, yah) and that kind of stuff you know, public transportation,
things of that nature, the commuter rail line. You know a number of factors I think led to
the enthusiasm at the state level. Gee I forget the names now. Gail, Gail Bliss, Gail Bliss,
is that her name?
A: That sounds familiar.
D: Yah, he was one of them, and a number of, a number of folks.
A: Now before Dukakis came, I mean Governor Sargent actually I think signed the
legislation.
D: Well you’re right. I’m glad you reminded me of that. Yah. Yah, that’s right.
A: Yah, and so what do you remember about how that developed?
D: Yah okay. Um (--)
A: Did you guys have to prepare any reports for the state?
D: I guess it was Pat Mogan that called me up one day and he said, “What are you doing
Friday,” or something, whatever. And I said, “Well I don’t know, what do you need?”
He said, “Well he said, Jessie Sargent is coming to town, Frank’s wife.”
A: Oh okay.
D: Frank Sargent’s wife. “Jessie Sargent is coming to town and I want you to take her
around so that she gets the right picture.” And so I did you know, we started the mayor’s
office and city manager, and then we you know, we toured her around and showed her
some of the stuff you know, the evolving resources that we were focusing on and so
forth, a number of meetings and so forth. I had to sit outside while she went to a Tea
with the Republican City Women’s Club. [Laughs] But I didn’t mind that at all, you
know. And ah (--)
A: Yah, that might have been pure disaster.
D: Yah, I wouldn’t want to have been in that one. But Nancy Achin Sullivan’s mother
was you know, the chair of the committee you know, yah. (A: Okay) And so you know,
so again it was that kind of informal thing, you know. Then it goes back to Frank. Yah,
this looks real, you know. And I forget who his planners were, who he had involved.
12

There was one fellow in the Governor’s office, I can picture him, but I cannot remember
his name.
A: How about the guy from Lowell, Flannery, who was one of the city manager’s sons?
D: Oh the former? Oh, oh.
A: I think his name was Jack.
D: Jack Flannery, yes. Yah.
A: Did he have any involvement in that?
D: You know he may have. I think he was playing a role of some kind. He was kind of
a gadabout. I mean I didn’t know him at all, I just heard the name and he just seemed to
be one of these people that was everywhere. (A: Yah) Yah I had no real contact with
him. I can’t, I don’t, don’t remember too much about that. But I do remember the DEM
people. You know once Sargent gave them the go ahead that they were very invested,
very involved.
A: Richard Carrera?
D: Yah, yah. That’s right. That’s one of them. Gosh, I wish I could remember the
names, but yah, Dick Carrera. And I can picture two or three of them that you know,
were very active. And you know, we’d spend a lot of time with them you know, from a
planning perspective and so forth. (A: Umhm) And then of course you know, I guess I
jumped ahead. I kind of, I’m glad you reminded me of Sargent’s role. You’re right. He
did, he did signed that legislation.
A: But when you think about it, you know, his efforts and Paul Cronin’s, (D: And Paul
Cronin’s, yah) I mean it’s (--)
D: Yah, were really the basis of all of this. You know, and Tsongas gets a lot of the
credit, (A: Right) but it you know, it was started by, it was really started by Brad. You
know, Brad and Pat Mogan goes way back with Brad as well.
A: Oh does he?
D: Yah, oh yah. Yah. And so it’s interesting those, those roots that people very often
forget about. And you know, obviously Paul Tsongas played a very significant role. The
foundation was already there, and he just added to it. And yah, Brad, and Frank Sargent
too.
A: Let me take you back a little bit (D: Sure) to the CDA again. And you talked about
some of this division. Do you remember more specific instances of people saying, “Well
you know, I think the Connector is a lousy idea, and I don’t agree with such and such.”
13

Or political maneuvering to see if you know, (D: Right, right) because obviously I don’t
know, you might have been in Nashua, but there was the big vote for the Lowell
Connector in 1972 on the city council. (D: Right, right) Were you around for that?
D: Yah I was in one way or another. And you know, you’re right, I think the planning
people were more sensitive to some of the community concerns. (A: Yah) And
redevelopment side of the house you know, just saw hey, you know, taking the
relocations and jobs. You know, business activity, you know and spending money. You
know, that’s what it’s all about. And I think kind of informally the planning group was
sort of siding with the community, but informally. (A: So I mean) Because the CDA
Board I think was, was very much in favor of the Connector.
A: Yah. So, so.
D: We had to tread lightly.
A: Yah okay. They had to hide their true loyalties so to speak?
D: Right. That’s right. (A: Okay) So I don’t remember any (--) I mean in some of those
meetings that we, that we, staff meetings that we had you know, we probably did discuss
it, but I don’t remember any particular blow-ups or anything like that. It was more on the
informal discussions that you know, people expressed their true opinions. (A: Yah) And
I think when Jack Tavares came over to us, because it was after John Wagner left, you
know the timing is vague.
A: Yah, I don’t even know from Model Cities [unclear].
D: Right. Right.
A: I think, I think he was there in, I think Model Cities was put in, in ’66.
D: Around there I think.
A: I think he was there for five years. So maybe ’71 he went to (--)
D: Yah, ‘71, ’72, something like that.
A: You don’t know where, I’ve tried to find these guys, but Don Wagner and Bruce
Hall?
D: Don Wagner, yah I have no idea. I don’t. When he left he went to Cambridge and I
have no idea where he is now. Bruce Hall, gosh I think he went to Florida. Bob
Malavich didn’t, he didn’t know huh?
A: I’m not sure if I asked Bob that or not.
14

D: Yah, because Bob [unclear],
A: Now how old would these guys be? Just a little bit older than you?
D: Well Wagner, probably ten years older that me, and I’m 55. (A: Okay. Okay) Bruce
is probably just a few years older. Kenny Briggs was another one.
A: Okay, I’ve never even heard of him.
D: You know, he was, he was a planner. He wasn’t around that long. I’m trying to think
who else? Those were some of the key ones I think. But yah, I have no idea where
Wagner and Bruce are now. Yah. Yah.
A: How about the CDA Board? Did you have much interaction with them?
D: Ah, somewhat, yah, yah.
A: What were your impressions with of different people over there?
D: Well I’ll tell you, as I said I was a young naïve person who was interested in politics.
You know I had, I had worked on some city council campaigns and stuff like that you
know, and you know, I had that enthusiasm. I was, I was disappointed to see the political
shenanigans going on, you know. And when they ever fired Jim Silk and brought Vinnie
Pitlinsky on, you know, that was the end of the (--)
A: What was the rationale behind that move?
D: Um, it seemed to me that Pitlinsky had run for, with the Republicans, had run for
State Rep and loss of course, and so forth. And the Republicans on the board, and of
course you know, it wasn’t like the Republicans and Democrats. I mean it was kind of
non-partisan in many respect, but obviously there were Republican interest on the board.
And they just wanted to exercise their authority and take control. And Jim was, Jim was
a great guy personally. He wasn’t a great leader perhaps (A: Okay) in some respect. And
he, his alliance was more with the redevelopment side than it was with the broader
interest that the board, the authority should have had.
A: Yah.
D: But very, a gentleman, very professional and you know, really tried to do the right
thing. And the board just drove him nuts. No matter what he did it was never the right
thing. And you know, so I mean I say they fired him, you know, he resigned, (A: Right.
Right) but obviously he didn’t have a heck of a lot of choice. And you know, five
minutes after he resigned they were voting for Pitlinsky, you know.
A: Yah.
15

D: And of course the interesting thing is I was at the Center City Committee at the time,
which we physically housed Center City Program within the CDA.
A: Oh I didn’t know that.
D: But we had you know, separate funding and so forth. And there were some
shenanigans about that too.
A: What? In what way?
D: Well the CDA, when the Center City Grant came to them (--)
A: And this is the [NERCOM?] Grant?
D: Yes, yah. When that grant came to them they expected they were just going to divide
up the work among the staff, you know, because at the time the Redevelopment Authority
didn’t have too much, the redevelopment side didn’t have too much to do, and so forth.
And then all of a sudden Paul Cronin sticks this kid Coffey in you know, and Coffey is
telling people you know, how this land is going to be allocated. No, no, no, you know.
And so that was kind of my baptism of fire with the board politics.
A: I see.
D: And Bob Gervais, oh gosh, Father Gagnon, (A: Okay) Herve Gagnon ooh!
A: Tough guy to deal with?
D: I guess it’s probably okay to say now, but you know, two-faced. (A: Okay) You
know, very nice to your face, and stab you in the back.
A: Yah, yah. And these are the “Republican guys”?
D: Yah, yah, yah, yah.
A: Now a lot of these guys were allied with like Homer Bourgeois.
D: Um. Umhm. That’s right. That’s right. And that was the unseen part of Lowell that
I didn’t know.
A: Okay.
D: And you know, guys like Bob Malavich and I, we’re the planners, you know, we’re
saying okay, “Here’s the community, here’s the people, here’s you know, we did the
studies and we felt we knew the community. What we didn’t know was this upper level
(A: Yah) that the, the Vesper Club set.
16

A: Okay, yah.
D: Bourgeois and so forth. And that goes back to the Industrial Development side of the
CDA.
A: Why is that?
D: Well because the old Industrial Development Commission you know, as I learned
more was really run by the business community. (A: Oh really) Yah, the business
community’s interest in Industrial Development was taking care of themselves, and not
bringing in competition to their business interest. You know, if they felt it was in their
interest to let a mill sit vacant, it sat vacant. You know, that kind of policy. And that’s
why Minnoch and the people like that said, you know, “We need a City Development
Authority that’s going to take all of these factors into account, not just the special interest
of the Industrial Development Commission. Of course it’s a two-way sword. In the old
days Industrial Development Commission, when they had a Homer Bourgeois on the
board, and they had you know, the senior people in industry, the Conways and so forth,
(A: Right) you know, they had some clout, you know, but they also had clout only where
they wanted it to happen. And at the same time, concurrently you have the Model Cities
and Pat Mogan telling the people that they have clout, that they have a voice, they have
something to say about the shape of their community, and how things are going to change
and should change, or whatever. And so you had that conflict, which was something that
like I said, at the time you know, sitting there in the Planning Department and you know,
having all of these great ideals, Bob and I didn’t know this stuff was going on around us.
(A: Yah, yah) And the board, you know, you go and you sit in the board meeting and
they have a discussion and so forth, and oh this is all very nice and everything, you know,
but you know, what really counted was what happened at the country club, or the Yorick,
the old Yorick Club.
A: The Yorick Club?
D: Yah, right, you know the, they didn’t call them power lunches at the time, but you
know, or power dinners, or whatever the heck, you know. So it was the stuff that didn’t
happen in the public forum that really was driving the policy. And you know, city
managers, city councilors, and all that kind of stuff, you know, like I mentioned Armand
Lemay. Armand Lemay was a great populist. (A: Yah, yah, yah) You know, and, but
he was not you know, part of the power elite.
A: He wasn’t?
D: No. No. You know, he, he evolved and developed and you know, gained some
strength and gained some credibility, but you know, he wasn’t part of that power elite. I
remember one of my professors at St Anslim telling me, telling the class, “You know,
you guys are never going to be close to the power elite, the structure in this company, in
this country,” you know. And I thought of that as a, I was getting into Tim Mellon’s
helicopter one time, thinking oh, if she could see me now! You know. (A: Yah, yah)
17

But I mean I was just a pee-on you know. So I rode with Tim Mellon in a helicopter. So
what, you know. She was right, you know, you and me we are not part of the power elite.
(A: Umhm) We can have a role, we can do some things, we can, we can maybe make a
contribution one way or another, (A: Umhm) but you know, the real power in this
country is that compressed 1% that has all the money. (A: Yah, yah) You know. And
it’s so true when you look at Washington today, you know.
A: Right. And so taking that to the local level, what was your sense of that power
structure back in the 70’s, late 70’s?
D: You know what I saw were the political elite power structure that you know, was very
narrow minded [loud ticking sound on tape], that saw you know, had a vision of the city
that was so totally different from the real needs of the city. That had, that plays no value
in the, in the history, the architecture, the art community and culture of the community.
You know, the only value they saw was get some federal bucks in here, do some urban
renewal, you know, and then you know, we’ll see what happens. But that changed and I
think it was Pat Mogan and the evolution of the State and National Parks, that got the
power elite to actually sit up and take notice. Just as I mentioned earlier about my Uncle
Reggie’s perspective on Jack Kerouac [loud ticking sound again], and how that changed
over time, I think the power structure eventually evolved. And I think that is where Paul
Tsongas played a very critical role, and that the Lowell Plan, (A: Yah) because he knew
about that power structure that I didn’t know about. (A: Yah) And he said, “How do I
get that power structure to play a role in this thing?” And the Lowell Plan was the
answer.
A: Okay.
D: And you know, he was able to get those people and say, “Look it, this is, this is what
we got to do. You got to play a part in this.” And ah (--)
A: How was he able to do that, if you have an understanding of that?
D: Well I think um, [forceful] personality in this case. I mean here he was a Democrat,
most of them were Republicans. But I think Brad Morse stayed in touch with Paul. I
don’t know this for a fact, but my sense is that Brad and Paul communicated, because
Brad still had some vested interest in the Park and so forth. And I think Brad helped Paul
to get to the right people, (A: Really) and shape it up, you know. Because looking back,
as I think about the things Paul was doing, and at the time I was saying, “Gee, what’s he
hanging out with them for?” But now it you know, you can see.
A: Did you have at that point have kind of a camp mentality like, “Old those are the old
people, and we don’t even need to worry about them,” kind of a thing.
D: Yah perhaps. Perhaps. Yah, yah, because we were young and you know, foolish.
[Both laugh] Yah, and yet Paul Tsongas was able to say, “Okay, we got to bring them
into the camp,” you know, and he did. And that’s the amazing thing about why this
18

community turned around, and why this community is what it is today. Because you
looked at Lawrence, and the elite left, they’re gone. And you know, they didn’t make
that investment in the community. They don’t have a George (A: Duncan) Duncan, you
know, or a George Elides, or you know, people like that, that stayed here, invested and
spent time you know, contributed to, to the community. And that’s the difference
between Lowell and Lawrence today.
A: So who were some of the people that Paul interacted with to make that transition
during the, predominantly the 1970s?
D: Gosh!
A: Do you remember other people that you would say, “Oh that’s you know, pound the
power structure.”
D: Yah, right, right. I know the Conways from Courier Citizen. You mentioned Homer
Bourgeois.
A: Did you think Paul had a lot of interaction with Homer?
D: I don’t know if he had direct interaction with Homer, but my suspicion is he must
have, because I think Homer was really pulling a lot of strings in those days. And then
Paul’s goal was to get a hold of those strings. (A: Okay, yah. Yah) And so my suspicion
is that they must have had some kind of a relationship.
A: What was Homer’s role in politics?
D: Oh very quiet and subtle. Yah, not very active at all publicly, you know.
A: Yah.
D: You never knew his politics, you know. (A: Okay) You know my mother’s side, my
French-Canadian side, you know, he was, he was like God. Homer Bourgeois was
president of the bank, and he was like God, and (--)
Side A ends.
Tape I, side B begins
A: … I don’t know if you got cut off. Now you were just talking about your mother’s
perception of Homer Bourgeois.
D: Right. Right. Yah, clearly he, he was the, the success story in the Franco-American
community, you know, he could do no wrong. And you know, like I said, he could walk
on water. He could do no wrong. And you know, in terms of his politics, it was very
subtle and was behind the scenes, but probably very critical to some people. It wouldn’t
surprise me. (A: Yah) But you know, I don’t know it for a fact, because he was so good
19

at it. So, and of course he you know, was involved in Jeanne D’Arc Credit Union (A:
Right) for some time, and so forth. (A: Right) So there were a lot of people that came
through that avenue as well. You know his goal I think was the help raise the status of
the Franco-American community, (A: Umhm) but he was almost Brahman in his attitude
you know, in his approach to things, you know. So he was almost like one of the old
Yankees, you know, but on the other hand he didn’t lose that, that ah, that Franco side of
his life and so forth. (A: Yah. Yah) So yah, I mean he was clearly a key player. I
remember on time I was bringing, trying to bring some people in to fill up some space in
one of the mills. (A: Yah) And Tom Markham and I you know, we kind of worked
together on it, and Tom went away somewhere. So the fellow was coming in and he said
you know, “Could you set me up with one of the banks?” (A: Umhm) So I forget the
guy’s name now, but I called someone at Union National and I said you know, “Could
you see these folks?” “Oh yah, sure.” So we went down to the bank and they were
talking. And so I don’t know if Homer came into the meeting or not, probably not, but
you know, some senior bankers were there and they said, “Well what space are you
looking at?” So we talked about which mill it was. The guy picked up the phone and he
calls the owner of the mill, whatever and he says, “You got some space over there?
Yah?” Actually no, they asked me to call them. (A: Okay) Call the agent, or whoever it
was.
A: Where was the mill? The Boott?
D: No, no, no, further up. (A: Lawrence?) Lawrence, yah. And so I got the guy on the
phone. I said, “I’m at the bank and you know, we’re trying to cut a deal here to get some
financing.” “What bank you at?” “Union National.” “Oh, okay. Good.” [Laughs]
And you know, it was, it was a very tight community. (A: Yah, yah) And, so anyway.
A: Any interesting stories about Homer that you’ve heard?
D: Not that I can remember. You ought to talk to my mother though.
A: Is your mother still around?
D: Oh yah.
A: Yah. Okay.
D: Yah, yah, yah, she might, she might remember some Homer stories. Certainly Red
would.
A: Yes.
D: Yah, but yah my mother might have some Homer stories, because just before World
War II she worked in Washington, DC, and then when the war broke out my grandfather
said, “You got to come home, you know, they’re going to bomb. You know, you’re
20

going to get killed,” you know. (A: Yah, yah) So she came home and she worked in
City Hall for a little while.
A: Oh really? (D: Yah, and ah) So was she working at City Hall during the war?
D: Yah. I think she only worked for a year or so, (A: Okay) and then she left and went
to work down at Camp Devens, at Fort Devens.
A: Okay. What did she do down in DC before the war?
D: Um, I think she was like a steno clerk, or something or other you know, just one of
the young girls you know, having a good time in Washington.
A: Yah, yah, good for her. Exactly.
D: She used to see the President drive by in the car, you know.
A: Oh really. The President.
D: The President, yah. That’s right, another one like Homer, he could walk on water.
A: Let me ask you about if, and this is a little bit before your time, but the row house
dispute, which was I think one of the early conceptions of preservation attitude.
D: Yah, yah.
A: Any knowledge of (--)
D: I remember it. I was in school at the time I believe. (A: At the high school?) We’re
in ’67,’68? No, no, in college.
A: In college. It would have been like ’66 I think, ’67.
D: Was it that early? ’66, ’67?
A: Yah, I think ’66.
D: Okay. Okay. Yah, and these were the row houses down where ah (--)
A: Dutton Street where the high school is now.
D: Yes, yes, that’s right. I have recollection of it from newspaper accounts and stuff
like that. I really wasn’t active or anything. And I do remember when they tore down the
Mass Mills, and I remember seeing some of the pictures and you know, driving down and
looking at it, and feeling kind of sad about it.
21

A: The Merrimack?
D: Yah the Merrimack.
A: Yah.
D: Yah, the Merrimack, and I was feeling kind of sad about it. And it was probably
around that time that my interest in this started, started growing, because I said, you
know, it’s just such a waste you know, they’re such, in a way, beautiful structures and
they add so much to this community, and they were just being torn down. Yah, I
remember feeling, feeling badly about it. And I vaguely remember the row house
controversy, but like I said, I was involved in other parts of life at the time.
A: Now you came back and you worked for Center Cities Committees? (D: Right) And
then they set up the Historic District Canal Commission. (D: Right. Right) Now did you
have a part on that Commission?
D: Yes. Yah, yah.
A: What was your role there?
D: Yah, I’m trying to think, “Did we do that before I left for Nashua?”
A: This legislation got passed under Paul Cronin, but maybe the funding didn’t become
available until maybe around ’74 or 5.
D: Yah, that’s right. That’s right. Yah, my, I had a supporting role in that both in the
early stages I think and then, and then at Center City Committee. Like I said, Paul’s
interest in having me there was he wanted to have someone who would you know, have
the sensitivity to these issues that he didn’t see in the CDA for example.
A: And you’re talking about Paul Cronin?
D: Cronin, yah. And so the development of that Commission, you know, we really
provided some staff support in the early days to it, you know, along with Armand
Mercier and other folks like that that were involved early on. Concurrently we were, one
of the things that we did was we worked on the Lowell, the State authorized historic
districts. (A: Okay) So we were doing that concurrent with that so that we would have
some local control. And I was, I was I don’t know, some people call me the founder of
the Lowell Historical Commission, or whatever, but you know when they established it
you know, we got some people appointed and so forth. I think Allen Gerson may have
been on it in the beginning, (A: Okay. Okay) and so forth, and [unclear].
A: So this is like the Historic, the early Historic Board?
22

D: Yah, right. That’s right. I think they call it the Historic Board now. It was, it was the
Historic District Commission. And that was the State Legislative Authority. And we had
to go to the City Council and get it voted on. I think Mayor Sampson was there at the
time, and all that kind of stuff.
A: Anybody oppose that?
D: Yah it was a little controversial. (A: Umhm) And I forget what the final vote was,
but it was controversial and it was you know, we were thinking we might lose this. But
you know, we rounded up the troops and packed the council chamber and we got it
passed. And Jim Sullivan was the City Manager at the time. (A: Okay) And so I went
in, a couple of us went in. No I think it was Vinnie Pytlinsky, I forget why, and I went in
to see Jim Sullivan about the appointment of the to the Historic Commission. And Jim
sat back in his chair and told us how, what a stupid thing it was for the council to do. (A:
Oh really?) And you know, historic preservation is nothing but an impediment to
economic development, blah blah, blah blah, blah blah you know, all this stuff. And we
just sat there and listened politely, nodded and everything. He said, “All right. Well
where are the letters you want me to sign?” So we gave him the letters and he signed.
And he says, “Oh he says, I have one more appointment.” I said, “Yah?” He said, “I’m
going to appoint Mark.” You know who I mean don’t you?
A: Goldman?
D: Mark Goldman. And I looked at him and I said, “Jim, what are you doing that?”
“Well you know, he means well.” So we walked out. Whoever I was with, and I forget
who it was, and I said, “Well that was a real slap in the face.” I mean we had to put up
with all that bullshit to begin with, you know, (A: Yah, yah) and then he appoints Mark
you know. And Mark does mean well. He’s got a great heart, you know. And ah (--)
A: And as long as you were in an air-conditioned room with him you’ll be all set. [Both
laugh] We might have to delete some of this. I like Mark a lot.
D: I do too, you know, and he does have a good heart and he’s so sincere. He just wants
to do things and so forth. But I remember one time we had to reprimand him, the
Commission had to reprimand him (A: Why?) because he went at some public forum
and spoke you know, allegedly on behalf of the Commission. And the Commission
hadn’t authorized him right, and so on. So we kind of reprimanded him. He felt bad
about it.
A: So, so Jim Sullivan wasn’t a big fan of Historic Preservation?
D: Oh no, no, not at all.
A: And who were his backers around town? I originally thought that like Paul Tsongas
(--)
23

D: Paul Tsongas brought him in, sure. And Paul Tsongas was a big advocate for Jim
coming in. And (--)
A: And how did that work? Do you know?
D: Well I don’t know. I think you know, I think Paul worked on Jim a little bit, but Jim
wasn’t going to change, you know, that was Jim’s philosophy. And you know, he was a
hard-driving city manager and you know, no pip squeak planner was going to tell him
how to think. (A: Sure) But he was also a shrewd politician. (A: Okay) And when he
saw the winds changing you know, he, he never got enthusiastic, but he didn’t get in the
way either, and actually he was helpful over time. I remember one of the, one of the
other little things that I did was remember Pat Malone?
A: Yup, from Rhode Island?
D: Yah. Pat wanted to do a HAER, inspection of the canals. And so I worked with him
and we got the grant, but we had to get matching money. And so I trooped over to Bobby
Healy who was Jim Sullivan’s assistant, you know. I said, “Bob, I said, we really got to
get this money.” And he said, “Where am I going to get it?” Well we came up with a
few ideas you know, and we found the matching money. So you know, we got it. And it
was a two-year program. And the second year Lowell was having a real bad budget
crunch, and we had to you know, they had an across the board cut of 5%, or some, some
such number. So all of a sudden we don’t have the full match. So I went back to Bobby,
and I said, “Bob you know, you got to restore this 5%.” “I can’t do it. I can’t do it,” you
know. We argued back and forth and everything. So I forget what I did. I think I went
back to Pat Mogan, and Pat said, “Oh I’ll find the money somewhere, you know.” He
found it, you know. So we had the match and you know, so we did the two-year HAER
Study.
A: So it’s probably what? What did you need, $3500 bucks or something?
D: Probably at the time you know. At the time it was a big crisis you know, but you’re
right, it was probably some miniscule amount of money like that. And but yah, that was,
that was when Chuck Parrot I think first came up, (A: Sure, sure) and people like that,
and got exposed. And that was kind of again the excitement of you know, people coming
in that had different perspectives. And looking at what we had here, and getting
enthusiastic about it, you know Pat Malone, what a character. What a great guy he was,
you know, and he led that team. And you know the CDA staff, what a bunch of whackos,
you know, they got long hair, or beards and you know, they don’t dress right, [Both
laugh] and they smell, and they’re out there trooping around in the canals. And that does
remind me of another thing, the power elite, the power structure we were talking about.
Mel Lesberg? (A: Sure) Mel Lesberg, while he was probably not power elite he
represented them. (A: Yah) And who he represented, [snaps fingers] and now the name
isn’t going to come to me. A lawyer.
A: Eldred Field?
24

D: Eldred Field. Eldred Field. Eldred Field turned out to be a great historic preservation
advocate. I probably met him once, (A: Okay) and I loved going to his office, you know,
because it’s like a little museum over there. (A: Really) Oh yah. You’ve never been in?
A: Is it Marshall’s father?
D: Right. Right.
A: Yah, yah.
D: I mean they have stuff over there that you wouldn’t believe. Oh I’m telling you, just
incredible. (A: Yah) Martha Mayo ought to get over there.
A: Yah I think they’ve actually given a lot of the papers to the park, etc.
D: Have they then? Oh good, good. Yah. Okay. But Mel Lesberg you know, when we
got this HAER Grant, of course you know, we had been working with him. When we did
the canals obviously we were becoming significant and of interest. And Mel came over
and sat down with the planners. And he said, “You know we generate power. We
generate steam. We’re doing things. These aren’t just you know, empty bodies of water
here, you know, this is an active industrial complex. And quite frankly you know, we
didn’t know crap about it. (A: Sure) And Mel was terrific. Presumably a power
engineer, I’m not sure what his background was. But he was terrific. And he would take
us and show us things and explain, and you know, help us maintain, but at the same time
he said, but I recognized that you see this as a public asset. I don’t think he used these
words, but you know, our conversation was such that he said, “This is, this is a public
asset. It’s something that needs to be incorporated into the community. And you know,
all my work over the years has been to keep people out, and now you want to bring
people in. You want people to walk along the grand canal walkway, you know. My God
that’s terrible liability, insurance, you know all that kind of stuff,” you know. “And you
want to put boats in the canals? What are you nuts!” And but Mel was a tremendous
ally, and I think through Eldred Field I think that’s where Paul Cronin, and Paul Cronin’s
office was in Eldred’s building. (A: Oh okay) Yah. And um, um (--)
A: For his congressional office?
D: Yah, congressional office, yah.
A: I see. I see.
D: Um, so I think that you know, that played a role. You know, the names are starting to
come back now, you know, of who the power structure was.
25

A: Is it, again I’m reaching a little bit, but is it one way to think about um (--) Well
maybe I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t, you know, I always do these, answering the questions, my
questions.
D: Leading questions?
A: Yes. Would you say before the Park came around that there was a symbolic
distinction between the Locks and Canals and the rest of the city?
D: Oh yah, yah. Yah I mean that was the thing. The planners saw the canal system as
something to be woven into the city. The Redevelopment people saw it as something to
fill in and make roadways out of, or do something else with. (A: Yah) The Locks and
Canals, Mel Lesberg and then the, and the Proprietors said, “This is an industrial
complex. This is something that’s alive and vibrant. It isn’t just nothing.” So you have
these kind of three diverse interests. And then of course you had the community where
kids would use them to swim in. (A: Yah) Unbelievable. Other people would use them
to dump trash into. (A: Yah) And of course the industrial users use them for steam, or
whatever, for water and so forth. So there was really a variety of interest around this
canal system. It’s not unlike a railroad system, you know. You know when the railroad
is running people complain about the noise and having to stop at crossings, and so forth,
but then when the railroad’s, “Oh we’re going to abandon this branch line.” “Oh, it’s the
lifeline of the community,” you know. So you know, that’s kind of how the canals were.
They were, they were something that was important, but no one knew why, or everyone
had a different reason why they were important and what role they should play. And it
took you know, Pat Mogan working with the Model Cities Neighborhood, the Acre
Neighborhood, to identify what the value was and figure out a way to use it, while at the
same time recognizing that this was a private entity that was doing stuff with it, and that
you couldn’t just, just take it over. You know I think, you know as we talk about this,
things come back to mind, and the state, DEM in particular, the early conversations were,
“Well we’ll just take them; we’ll just take them by eminent domain.” You know, if
they’re not going to cooperate we’ll just take them. And Pat Mogan said, “No, you don’t
want to do that.” The proprietors, number one they’re historical. I mean John Hancock
signed their charter for heaven sakes. (A: Yah, yah) You know, they still play a
valuable role. You know, they still do things that support this community and, and
they’re responsible. So you know, let’s bring them into the camp like, like we said
before you know, about Homer or other people. (A: Yah) Let’s bring them into the
camp. And ultimately you know, working with Mel and at the staff level, and then
obviously to Paul’s working with Eldred and those people, working at that level, they did,
they came into the camp. I think it must have been Dukakis probably who you know,
finally had to strike a deal in terms of providing indemnity insurance, or something like
that you know, because that was, that was Eldred’s big concern, was you know, people
are going to fall into his canal and sue him. (A: Yah, yah) You know, and so.
A: But the state also purchased land along (--)
26

D: Yah, yah there was, there was some acquisitions and stuff like that. Yah, I forget the
details now, but yah.
A: Now you said Eldred became a great preservationist of sort. How did that transition
come about?
D: Well I’m not sure. I think it was at Paul’s level, you know, Paul Cronin and Paul
Tsongas level (A: Yah) that you know, there were some discussions. And I only say that
not because I ever heard them say anything about it, but because he allowed Mel Lesberg
to take such an active role in our reference to both the state park and national park
activities.
A: Okay.
D: And I can clearly see Mel’s change in thinking, and that change wouldn’t have come
without you know, the principle behind it. (A: Yah, yah) And you know, and then I sort
of recall other people saying, you know, “Hey, without Eldred this wouldn’t have
happened,” and stuff like that.
A: Why would they say that?
D: Well because they could have just put the gates up and said, “No, you can’t do it,”
you know. And then you would have gone to eminent domain, and there would have
been, who knows how that would have come out. Because I suspect they might not have
wanted an eminent domain case against the providers. But I don’t know.
A: I remember reading you know, there were some people, I think the Locks and Canals
owned, owed quite a bit of tax money, and that there were some calls (D: Yah) from
some politicians (D: Right, yah, yah, that’s right) to seize the canals by eminent domain.
Bobby Kennedy strikes me as one person. Do you recall any of those political battles?
D: Aaah, just vaguely. I mean I knew Bobby, Bobby played a very active role in Center
City Committee obviously. (A: Yah) And he and I did a lot of work together. And
Bobby was smart. Bobby was a populist also, like Armand.
A: And when you say populist, it means they don’t have a click, political click that they
rely on?
D: Right. Right. That’s right.
A: I mean that’s one interpretation of that.
D: What I, what I specifically mean is they were popular with the people. They weren’t
necessarily popular with the power elite. (A: Okay) And but Bobby was able to
translate his popularity into a little bit of leverage. And he would lambaste them in the
Lowell Sun, and the Sun loved to print that stuff. And but at the same time he was
27

meeting with them and saying, “How are you going to work this out?” So you know,
Bobby played, played it well.
A: Yah, yah. He was close to the gas company, wasn’t he?
D: Oh yah, yah he worked for the gas company. Yah, so that would, you know, that was
one angle that he had for the Putmans I guess, that would have been.
A: Right, right.
D: But yah, he knew how to play the angles, absolutely. And you know, like I said you
know, until you reminded me of Bobby’s role, at the staff level we talked about eminent
domain, we talked about the pros and cons and we said, “This isn’t going to work,” you
know, we need to get them to be willing partners in this, rather than kick them out. And
then what do we want the responsibilities for the system for, you know, how are we going
to run this system? Because we still would be obliged to provide the power and all that
kind of stuff. (A: Yah) You know, and we really saw it as a liability for either the city
or the state to have a title to this, to this asset. And but Bobby, you know, smarter than
we were politically, you know, took that campaign into the, to the public you know. And
yah, I mean they were painted with a bad brush and given the bad image and so forth, but
ultimately you know, when you look at their responsibilities and so forth, and the
economic condition of the city at the time too. I mean they still had to maintain the
system. It’s not unlike the railroad you know, they had to maintain the system. But their,
their economic base was gone. (A: Really) You know, so you know, it still cost the
same to run that five miles of canals whether you have ten customers, or a hundred
customers. If you have ten customers and half of them can’t pay their rent, you know,
you’re really screwed. You know, and so where do you, where do you cut cost? Well
you know, don’t cut that check to the city. (A: Yah!) [Laughs] And you know, but that
was not unusual at the time. Vinnie Pitlinsky, when he and I first got together, was the
tax title program under Center Cities. You know, and it was going after um, you know,
landowners of you know, back taxes and so forth. And Vinnie and what was his name?
A: Robert Pelky?
D: Yah before Bob. Before Bob Pelky was another guy. Anyway we had this little tax
program And you know, of course Bobby was Chairman of the Center Cities Committee
you know, and you know, so that was I think what may have been what peeked his
interest by going after the Locks and Canals. But at the same time he was doing this he
was also working his other angles. And like I said, ultimately they came on board and
they wanted to participate. They saw the value in working together, as opposed to having
a negative relationship.
A: I just want to get back quickly to Tom Markham. You said you worked with him.
Tell, just say you know, tell me about Tom Markham first.
D: Yah, yah, yah. Well Tom was certainly a great storyteller.
28

A: Did he ever pull you into the bars?
D: No I never, I never did that. I know he took Frank Keefe around to the bars.
A: Yah I think Frank told me that, yah.
D: Yah, yah, but Tom was a great storyteller, but you know, this was in the 70s and he
was in charge of industrial development. I was one of the young planners and I was
interested in it. So I would go in and spend some time with him, and you know, try to,
try to learn from the old master and so forth. And it was funny when I was doing the
Center City Program you know, I’d be in my office and it would be busy, the phone
would be ringing and I’d be doing all kinds of stuff you know. And then usually around
Friday afternoon I’d wander over to Tom’s office, and we’d sit down you know, and talk
about the week and stuff. (A: Umhm) You know, I remember him starting off one time
saying, “Yah, been here all week the phone never rang once.” “Jeese Tom, my phone’s
been ringing off the hook.” [Laughs]
A: And your other question would have been, “Well did you pick it up and make any
calls?”
D: Well exactly. Exactly.
A: Now what was the status of industrial development during that like early and mid,
mid 70s period?
D: Well it was yah, very, very slow. Of course you know, we had Hale/Howard in the
demolition phase and preparation phase, and then you know, towards the end when they
started to try to fill it up. And so around ’74, ’75 is when we started you know really
aggressively marketing the thing.
A: Was the marketing successful?
D: Yah, yah. I mean it was a bad economic time, but we got, we got some folks in there.
A: Umhm.
D: Merrimack Magnetics is one name that just hit me.
A: Yah, yah, still there.
D: Are they still there? (A: I’m pretty sure, yah) Okay, yah, yah. And you know, it has
taken off over time. But Tom you know, waited for the phone to ring, whereas the
planners and so forth, we were trying to make things happen. (A: Yah) You know he
did have some connections, political connections and so forth, but always had great
stories.
29

A: Do you remember any of his old political stories?
D: Gosh!
A: I think he was on the school committee for one term way back when.
D: Yah, yah, that’s right. That’s right he was. Probably in the 40s.
A: During the war I think.
D: Yah, yah, I think so. And then somehow got hooked up with, with the Kennedys.
A: Yah.
D: And when Jack went to the White House he went down to the Transportation
Department, (A: Oh did he? Yah?)all the way down the Transportation Department.
Originally went to the White House as Transportation Advisor to the President. Of
course what he was, he was the starter for Eastern Mass Bus you know. That was his
transportation experience. But then from the White House he went over the EDA. (A:
Okay) EDA in those days, you know, used to train their people. And so he got some
credentials. He got some background and so forth. But you know, the job at EDA was to
run around New England and he asked the President to give grants out, you know. He
became very popular that way. (A: Yah) But of course they were these you know,
$200,000 grants and stuff like that, which at the time was pretty good money.
A: Yah, yah.
D: So, and then you know when Nixon came in of course that dried up, and he had no
money to give away and he sat in the office waiting for the phone to ring. [Phone rings]
And then the phone rang and it wasn’t the call he wanted.
A: Yah, exactly.
D: Pack up and get out! But you know Tom, Tom was also not part of the power elite.
He was you know, Irish Catholic, (A: Umhm, umhm) you know, up out of the ranks so
to speak.
A: I mean when you talk about the power elite in the early 70s, who was it?
D: The banks, the banks and the lawyers.
A: And certain ethnic groups?
D: Um, I don’t remember it as being ethnic groups. I remember it as being money.
30

A: I mean would you say Yankees? (D: Yah, yah) Still?
D: Oh right, right. Yah, I think that was still (--)
A: And maybe some of the French Republicans like Homer?
D: Yah, and you know, I don’t know what ethnic group the Conways are, but you know,
Courier Citizen, they had a lot of power in the [40s]. The Gas Company, the banks, the
lawyers. (A: Yah) Mainly that was the power structure. And you know, when you look
back at it now you think well they were big fish in a small pond, but some of them were
actually pretty significant statewide too. (A: Umhm) But you know, so Tom didn’t have
that connection with [phone rings] that group and what they were interested in Go
ahead.
A: Excuse me. [Tape is turned off to answer phone, then turned on again] Let’s talk a
little bit about Paul. Do you remember, Paul Tsongas. do you remember the first time
you met him, heard about him, saw him?
D: Yah I do. I was riding my bike. I was probably about eleven years old, and he was
just back from the Peace Corps I think, or back from college, I forget. (A: Yah) And
Greeks all lived across the street from me, and he knew him from church or something or
other. (A: Okay) And he was just walking down the street. And Paul said to Peter,
Peter Janeiros, he said, “You know I think we’re going to try to get a little football team
together.”
A: Oh yah!
D: “Ah, you know, are you interested?” Peter said, “Yah.” I wasn’t very athletic you
know, but I’m sitting on my bike and he looked at me and he says, “Ah never mind, you
got to fat an ass.” [Laughs]
A: He told you that? [Laughs] Well he always had a great personality, didn’t he?
D: Oh yah. But then when he ran for city council was the first year that I worked at
CDA. And you know, I went to some of his parties and stuff. Then after he got in you
know, he called me up and he, you know, so we, I went down to his law office and you
know, we just chatted about things and so forth. (A: Um. Um.) He was very, he was
very interested in understanding the structure and what was going on, and who was who,
and who the players were, and so forth. And he knew, of course I had been involved in
some of the campaigns and stuff.
A: Yah, whose campaigns did you help out on?
D: Um, oh gosh. Well besides his, I’m trying to think. My Uncle Reggie used to, used to
work in campaigns. He used to get me involved.
31

A: Is that how you got into it?
D: Yah, yah. And I can’t remember the names now. I mean they weren’t terribly
important when you think of it, but (--)
A: Did they win? Did they lose?
D: Yah. Yah they won. Some city council campaign, and then there was a state rep
campaign. Yah, we just [unclear] whatever. You know, I mean we weren’t terribly
involved. But Paul was very interested in understanding things, and you know, wanted to
be helpful as well. You know, so we kind of paralleled our paths here for a few years
you know that he ran for County Commissioner and so forth. (A: Right, right) You
know I’d get involved in that campaign. Of course you know, being in city government
you have to be kind of cautious you know, you can’t be overly (--)
A: Right. You couldn’t be out front too much.
D: Right, right. And then I worked with Bobby Kennedy in some of his campaigns. (A:
Okay) And but then you know, Paul, of course he decides to run for Congress. And of
course I had been put in place at the time by Cronin. (A: Yah) And so that was kind of
interesting.
A: Did Paul come and solicit your help?
D: Yah, oh yah.
A: And what did you say?
D: Yah. And I said, “Yah. Yah.”
A: You did?
D: Yah, I did, because I’m mean, you know, basically I’m a Democrat you know. And
yah, I was working for a Republican, but you know. He never, Paul Cronin never asked
me you know, (A: Really) what I was, or you know, what my interest were, and whether
I support him or not. He never, never did that. (A: Hm. Hm) And you know, quite
frankly one of his campaign people came to me and asked for some help. And I gave him
the specific help that he asked for. You know, I didn’t offer anything more.
A: For Paul Cronin?
D: Yah. Yah. But ah (--)
A: Who, who was, who was part of his crew, because I haven’t been able to (--) The
only guy that I’ve talked to is Steve Karalekos, (D: Okay. Jeff) but he was down more in
Washington way, (D: Okay. Yah, yah) and I was looking for people up here.
32

D: Well Sue, Susan (A: Sue Leggat) Leggat (A: Okay) worked in his office. And then
there was a fellow who worked with the Gas Company, Jeff, and I see him every now and
then around time, and I can never remember his last name. Jeff, it’s an Irish name I
think, but he worked at the Gas Company (A: Okay) probably with Bobby Kennedy. (A:
Okay) And I always felt there was a connection between Bobby Kennedy and Paul
Cronin.
A: Really? Hm.
D: Yah. And I think it had Gas Company roots. Jeff Mitchell? Jeff Mitchell I think.
A: Jeff Mitchell, that’s a possibility.
D: I think that’s the name. He worked at the Gas Company and he was very active with
Paul Cronin. (A: Yah) And (--)
A: Do you remember a lady? I think her name was Sally Rich? She worked on some of
the legislation for the Park.
D: Yah, no, no, don’t remember her at all.
A: For Paul Cronin.
D: Yah.
A: And she got married, and of course nobody can remember her, her new name.
D: Oh yah, yah right.
A: I’m sure she would be, she would be relatively young (D: Right) you know, your
age, (D: Right) maybe a few years older, and I just don’t know how to find her.
D: But, yah Sue Leggat (--) Well of course you know, people get married and you lose
track them. It’s like Don Wagner and Bruce Hall.
A: Yah, I actually looked up these guys on the Internet and I found one Bruce Hall in
Wyoming, (D: Really?) and it was a 92 year-old guy, you know.
D: Oh wow, yah. Yah, yah.
A: It wasn’t the right guy.
D: And you have HAHL, true right, yah, that’s right. Good. Um, yah no, I didn’t know,
I think I knew one staff person on Paul’s, Paul Cronin’s staff. (A: Okay) I don’t even
remember the name now. And you know, they were doing their thing down in
33

Washington, and I was doing the stuff up here locally. And but you know, the thing, one
of the things I remember about Paul Tsongas, once he got into the Senate we were very
active. My wife and I were both very active in the Senate campaign. And that was when
we really got to know Nicki, and even got a little closer to him, and so forth. And he had
a little reception over his house one Sunday afternoon. And you know, my daughter was
just a little tyke at the time. And she had long curly hair. So I was holding her and you
know, we were talking to Paul. And Marty Fleming was with us, Brendan’s son, and
Marty’s always trying to impress you know. So he’s trying to talk you know, economic
politics with Paul. Paul meanwhile was twirling Sarah’s curls, you know, and just
watching her and you know, laughing with her, totally ignoring Marty. [Laughs]
A: Yah, wrong timing right?
D: Yah. “That’s very nice Marty, yah.” Just enthralled with her curls you know, and
you know, that’s one of the nice warm memories we have of Paul, was that he you know,
he really was, he was a very, very nice guy. Like you said earlier, and like my very first
experience with him, he could be very direct, you know. He didn’t mind telling you
you’re a fool if he thought you were a fool. And but you know, he really was a very
decent person. Worked very hard, and, and like I said before, was able to bring people
into the camp rather than push them away. And that was the key.
A: Let me ask you about some other CDA people. Bill Kiely?
D: Yah, Billy Kiely, former newspaper reporter, was a pain in the neck to the old LRA.
So they hired him. You know he wrote nasty articles about him, so they said, “Well let’s
hire him and he won’t write about us anymore.” [Laughs]
A: Really? Yah?
D: That was the story I was told.
A: Good newsman?
D: Yah. I guess so. Yah. I like Bill personally. He was pretty sharp; very bright.
Apparently he had some troubles at home, a difficult marriage. And I thinkit was health
issues with his wife, or something or other. And but yet you know, really, he worked
hard. A lot of people criticized him, said he didn’t know what he was doing, and stuff
like that, but Jim Sullivan didn’t like what he, didn’t like the CDA anyway.
A: Jim didn’t like the CDA?
D: At the time I think. And Kiely was in trouble with the board. Bill Kiely was in
trouble with the board. And Jim brought him over into the city manager’s office and
made him a special assistant to projects as I remember. (A: Yah) Everyone thought it
was done so that he would fall flat on his face, he’d get fired, and that would be the end
34

of Kiely. He did a spectacular job on the high school renovation. He did a great job
managing.
A: Built twelve new schools around town these last few years
D: Yah, yah, yah. He did a great job and you know, very kind of laid back personality
and so forth. But you know, you give him something to do and he did it, you know, he
was good. And he was one of those guys when Frank Keefe came in you know,
poopooing the smart assed kids, you know, what do they know and so forth. But he came
around, he really did. And I had a good relation with Bill through the years. I’m kind of
sorry I lost track of him. Is he still around?
A: Yah, he lives in Dracut and he’s working for the Lexington School System making,
(D: Did he really?) making about $92,000 a year (D: No kidding!) building libraries and
schools over there.
D: Oh Jim Sullivan did him a good turn then, didn’t he?
A: Exactly. How about George O’Meara? Is he still around? He’s with the
[NEMCOG], or the early (--)
D: Right. George, George is, George is long dead.
A: Yes he is.
D: Yah, I remember George. He was the one with Markham, another Kennedy, another
Kennedy guy. Bright, bright guy, (A: Was he?) very driven, very political and not shy
about it. Very liberal democrat; married a French lady who was very unique. George
had a good sense of government, public service. He liked to be a mover and a shaker
kind of in the background. He set up that regional planning group (A: Okay) primarily
because it was a way to keep some money flowing, and give him a launching pad I guess
to do really what he wanted to do. You know, he was just, I don’t know if he was
director, or what he was, but you know, he was political liaison, but he really was. And
yah, he and Markham were buddies of course you know, for the Kennedy days. (A:
Right) Yah George was quite a guy, quite a talented fellow. He did a lot to help keep
federal money flowing, and keep a line of communication open. Frank Keefe tapped
right into him very quickly, and made good friends with George. Yah George was a true
ally I think for political liaison issues. You know he wasn’t enthusiastic about you know,
historic preservation and those things, but they were things that the community wanted so
that was fine with him. If you can find some way to do it, fine you know. Good guy,
yah.
A: We can talk too about some board members. Bob Gervais?
D: Yah, yah, Bob was chairman I think (A: Right, for a couple of years) for quite
awhile. And you know, he was one that had a particular agenda. I never knew what it
35

was. (A: Okay) You know, like I said, you go to the meetings and it was all very formal
and structured and so forth, but there was a lot of, a lot of dealing, wheeling and dealing,
and he was one of the king wheeler and dealers.
A: Okay.
D: And you know, not one of my favorite people, but his brother Steve is a great guy.
A: Okay. How about Peter Reilly?
D: Peter was, was an interesting character. Out of the Courier Citizen family of course,
kind of the lost son or something. (A: Really) Yah he was kind of a, not a maverick, but
black sheep I think (A: Hm) in many respects. And he was a follower, certainly not a
leader you know. He was there on the board because of his name, and you know he did, I
think he was directed by, by Bob.
A: Okay.
D: He was one of Bob’s folks.
A: Okay. (D: Yah. Yah) I think there was a guy, I’m hoping I’m not getting confused
with the people that were on the Charter Commission, Omer Descheneaux?
D: I remember Descheneaux, I don’t remember Homer. Homer Descheneaux. (A:
Omer) Omer, Omer Descheneaux. I sort of remember that name. I can’t (--) Was he a
milkman? There was someone on the board that was a milkman. (A: Really) And I
remember Bob Gervais kind of denigrating him because he was a milkman, and I think he
was French. That might have been who that was. And apparently he wasn’t one of
Bob’s votes. So he didn’t, he didn’t much you know, he didn’t (--) What were there,
seven members that were (--) (A: Seven members) A lot of 4 to 3 votes I think.
A: Was there? Yah. (D: Yah, yah) Yah there would have been Bob Gervais, Peter
Reilly, Father Gagnon, the Greek Dentist Kokinos.
D: Oh right. Right. Dr. Kokinos, yah. He was a nice guy. He was very sincere about
being a board member (A: Yah) and wanted to do the right thing, but he also didn’t want
to upset the apple cart. (A: Okay) So he usually went along with the majority. (A:
Okay) Yah.
A: And then Jim Lorrey.
D: Jim Lorrey of course was a labor member, (A: Right) a Postman. (A: Yah) Very
pleasant but he was kind of one sided. He felt he was the representative of staff,
employees, (A: Oh. Oh really) which really wasn’t appropriate, and he didn’t need to be
and no one really wanted him to be. Although I will say the redevelopment side of the
house cozied up to him. (A: Okay) And I guess the planners were kind of dumb in not
36

cozying up to him, but we felt you know, we had our credentials and you know, we were
doing the right thing. And why do we need, why do we need a vote on the board? You
now, the board should vote according to what’s right, you know.
A: Excuse me. [Tape is turned off then on again.]
D: I can’t remember the last name. Warren, Warren?
A: Warren Griffin.
D: Griffin, that’s the name.
A: Any thoughts about him?
D: He was the one who came in and told me just before I was leaving to go to Nashua, he
came in and ah, into the (--) Oh no, it wasn’t that. It was when I was leaving to go to the
B&M Railroad. (A: Okay) He came in my office one day and he said, he said, “What
are your plans?” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “I don’t think there’s going to be
any budget for you to continue here.” I looked at him, “What are you talking about?”
And you know, he just didn’t like me. [Laughs] But he was, he was one of the Gervais
folks, you know, he was in that click.
A: Okay. Okay.
D: I didn’t really know him. I didn’t know what his background was. You know, he
didn’t seem to come from, from the power elite group. You know I think he was just a
regular guy who you know, just got himself on the board, and aligned himself with, with
the leadership.
A: I know Eddie Early had a fair amount of kind of his people on there at some point.
D: Oh yah, John Meehan, yah, yah.
A: And maybe Eddie Keon?
D: Right, that’s right. Ed Keon I remember we had a good relationship with him. (A:
Yah) I thought he was a very professional board member. And I hated to see him go.
He moved, he relocated, or something or other, but he ran a business over in Plain Street
too.
A: Is that what he did?
D: Yah, and yah, he was very, very good, very professional. He was, he was one of those
trying to do the right thing, that kind of a thing.. And you know when I was doing some
industrial development work I would spend some time with him because obviously as a
businessman he was interested in that. (A: Um. Um.) And unlike my perception of the,
37

of the bankers and the other business leaders who were very selective and picky, you
know, he said, “Hey, bring anybody in here. Anyone who wants to come, you know,
bring him in, the door is opened you know, because I think he used to be on the Industrial
Development Commission years ago.
A: He was on the Redevelopment Authority.
D: Is that what it was? It was just, okay. (A: Yah, yah) All right, and then he spent
some time on the CDA Board I think? (A: Yes) Yah.
A: Yup. And Brendan Fleming got kind of pushed out and Eddie Keon came on. (D:
That’s right, yah) Around ’64, ’65, something like that.
D: Oh yah. Oh yah Brendan. That’s another, another story.
A: The abolition, the abolishment of the CDA, what do you know about that? You left
before that happened?
D: Yah I left before it happened. And of course the ground work for that was being laid
with Taupier coming in, and Taupier with his approach to things was you know, clean it
out, get rid of it, do away with it, and you know, I’ll do my own thing. And of course he
brought in Victor Norman and Gerry Hayes. And you know, put Gerry in as executive
director. Ah, I think that was (--)
A: Of the CDA?
D: Of the CDA. But you know Gerry’s clear mandate was to figure out how to abolish
the thing. And (--)
A: And what happened to Pytinsky?
D: Oh he got himself a job down in Florida, or something or other.
A: Yah. Did he get into any trouble up here? I know he had been arrested down in
Florida.
D: Yah, I don’t think he got into any real trouble up here, other that just eating gum.
You know he, I don’t think he had a very long tenure for one thing. (A: No) And I don’t
think he ah, I don’t think he did anything illegal. But you know, he just had no
capabilities, and was put in position (--)
Tape I ends.
Tape II, side A
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D: [I wasn’t the brightest bulb on the train].
A: Right. Right.
D: But you know, Victor and Gerry Hayes you know, went in there. And you know
Gerry and I got along very well, and Victor. And you know, we talked about you know,
what the structure should be, and then we probably had similar conversations what we’ve
been talking about here today. (A: Yah, yah) You know, you got these divisions and the
goal of having them work together hadn’t really been accomplished. You know, with
Frank Keefe some progress had been made, but, and then, but then the board just kept
interfering in things. So that you know, it never really functioned the way it was
supposed to. So you might as well just make it the City Manager’s Office of Planning
and Development, and you know, let the control be there, and the executives.
A: Were individual board members allied to the individual groupings within the CDA?
D: Yah I think so. Yah, and I think also the board members were leaning you know,
their allegiance was to the redevelopment side. The rest of us were nobodies, you know.
We were professional planners from outside the city you know, people like Robert and
myself who were you know, we were just kids, what do we know. And so yah, the power
structure was supportive of redevelopment, but concurrent with that and fortunate for that
was Pat Mogan and the other activities going on, that you know, kind of steered away
from as you described it, the planner is going to have all the answers, or the, or the you
know, city people are going to have all the answers.
A: Yah. Yah.
D: And so I think that you know, what we saw was kind of that dichotomy. And you
know, Taupier came in and with his attitude, his gruffness you know, “Screw them! Get
rid of them!” You know. And ultimately he was probably right, you know, because I
don’t think the board really added anything to, to the structure except politics. But you
wanted to get rid of politics. You know you already had the city council, I mean how
much more politics do you need, you know? And so you know, ultimately I think if I had
stayed I certainly would have been supportive of abolishing the board. (A: Yah) It
would have been a hard thing to do when you’re mayor, but you know. But like you said
about Eddie Early. Eddie Early was probably responsible for Warren Griffin being on
the board, (A: Okay) because I know Warren was very close to John Meehan. (A:
Okay) Meehan and Early and the, you know, those people were all, all very close. I got
along well with Eddie Early. As a matter of fact he was one of the ones that I worked on
a campaign (A: Oh did you) you know, when I was younger. Just like [unclear] and stuff
like that. I think my Uncle Reggie worked with Mr. Early as well. (A: Okay) And then
I worked with Eddy’s brother Charlie out at Tewksbury Hospital. I worked at Tewksbury
Hospital summers when I went to college. (A: Oh, oh) Eddie was a social worker;
Charlie was a social worker out at Dracut High. And I went to school with some of his
kids, and stuff like that (A: I see) you know. So, so we go back with the Earlys, but yah,
I think that the abolition was an evolution of change that you know, the board was no
39

longer seen as functional. The city manager, you know, was assuming more and more
authority and more power and said, you know, “I need to have these kind of resources at
my disposal I shouldn’t have to go through the board.” And you know I think, you know
I’m sure Bob Malavich had some insights because he was there all through it, and
through all of the transitions of administration and so forth. But you know, from the
outside of course I, when I went to the B&M I stayed on as an associate commissioner of
the Historic Commission.
A: You did.
D: And you know, we had to keep coming back for awhile, until things got too whacky
there, but I stayed for a couple of years anyway and you know, stayed in touch that way.
And you know, I think that the um, getting on the board was a good thing.
A: Now looking back twenty-five years of the Park what would you say is different from
the original vision, if anything?
D: Well let’s see. I think the original vision was that there would be much more grass
roots involvement. And I think what happened was, at least in the first ten years, is that
the pre-park efforts were very grassroots, very community oriented. And we all did a lot
of hard work. (A: Yah) The National Park Service came in and it was kind of a twoway
sword. They were so darn good, and did such a good job, that other than the historic
board, the federal board, you know, the community was able to okay, we can sit back
now. Uncle is here. He’ll take care of it. And to me in the first ten years that was my
disappointment in the Park, was that it became a National Park and less of a, of a local
activity. On the whole I think that was probably beneficial, because I think we probably
would have messed it up.
A: We could have had Warren Griffin as the Executive Director of the Park, right?
D: Yah, yah, right, right. Exactly. So, so I think in the end it worked, it worked out very
well. I’m disappointed that the State Park kind of fell apart. (A: Um, yah) And but yet
there was always a little tension there too. You know, where is the responsibility? What
are they suppose to be doing? What are you suppose to be doing, and so forth? So in a
way it was probably a natural thing that that would happen. And they end up doing good
stuff in Dracut Forest, and in Carlisle, and so you know, this kind of activity there
anyway. So I guess it’s probably okay.
A: We’re fighting them on the forest. You’ll see an article next week. Oh yah. (D: Oh
okay. Yah) Not real big fight. (D: Yah, yah, right) Final thoughts about your time
living and working here in the city, National Park, etc.
D: Well of course I’ve lived here all my life so far. And you know, my wife and I both
natives. And you know, having worked in the rail industry, people say, oh well you must
have lived all over the place, and I’ve never moved except from the Highlands to
Belvidere, which is unusual in the rail industry. But Lowell has been a good place to
40

live. We raised our daughter here. My brother and his wife are here, and they raised two
daughters here. And my brother worked at the high school. (A: Okay) He was head of
the math department over there. And you know, I, my personal disappointment is I
haven’t been involved more in the community. (A: Yah, yah) But you know, I do
certainly take advantage of the music series, and you know, every chance I get you know,
when people come in from out of town, I make sure they know about it at least, and that
they can get here. I’ve brought people from other parts of the state you know, in, into
Lowell, and done the tours and all that kind of stuff. So you know, I think it’s been, it’s
been a great asset. You know you run into people all around the country and they say,
“Where are you from?” “Lowell.” “Oh I’ve been there. Oh, you know, cobblestone
streets.” You know, they, they’re impressed by Lowell, which is nice. Because if I said I
were from Lawrence it would be a totally different story. And so I think that you know,
looking back over the thirty years or so that I’ve been involved I seem to be, set out to do
something and it worked, and you know, I’m real pleased. [Loud ticking sound on tape]
A: Great.
D: All right.
A: Thanks very much.
D: Thank you. Great to see you.
End of interview
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