Lillian Scalzo Memoir - University of Illinois Springfield

University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Lillian Scalzo Memoir
SCA49. Scalzo, Lillian (1900-1984)
Interview and memoir
1 tape, 60 mins., 28 pp.
Scalzo, an artist, discusses her work and association with art, the Springfield Art
Association, Vachel Lindsay and her art education.
Interview by Melinda Kwedar, 1976
OPEN
See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photocopies of photographs and
articles.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1976, University of Illinois Board of Trustees

"A TRIBUTE TO LILLIAN SCALZO AND HER ART"
Springfield Art Association Gallery
April 22-29,1979
Miss Lillian Scalzo undoubtedly inherited her artistic talent from her
maternal grandfather, Joseph Maggenti of Florence, Italy. He came to America
with a contractor whose specialty was the construction and decoration
of ornate cathedrals and elaborate state capitols. In this capacity, he came
to Springfield to make casts for plaster designs and bronze figures to be used
in the Capitol, He bought the house at 325 W. Washington Street. Later,
Miss Scalzo's arents lived in this same house. It is the home in which she
was born ~prif17,19OO and where she lives today.
Lillian Scalzo received her first art training from George Robb at the
Springfield Art Association. She studied illustration and costume design at
the Chicago Academy of Fine Arts. She also studied at the Chicago Art
Institute and the Chicago Academy of Design.
When Springfield Junior College opened in 1929, she developed and directed
their Art Department until World War 11, when art classes were discontinued.
Whiie still teaching at the Junior College in 1936, she started
teaching painting at the Springfield Art Association. After World War 11, the
Art Association was able to hire a full-time director and Miss Scalzo resigned
and became affiliated with the State Department of Health, illustrating medical
pamphlets.
She returned to teaching at the Art Association in the early 50's and
continued until 1974. During over 40 yem of teaching, she has demonstrated
her ability to inspire and guide thousands of persons to achieve their
maximum ability. It is unusual to find a talented artist who can also communicate
techniques so ably to students of varying degrees of capabilities.
Her versatility as an artist is demonstrated by her pen and inks; linoleum
block prints and etchings of the early 30's. She also did watercolor
plates for costume designs used in several of the early Beaux Arts Balls,
which were really extravagansas "almost like a ZeigBeld performance".
This exhibition includes oils, watercolors, collages, and her most recent
endeavor - stitchery. Miss Scalzo says "Stitchery is really painting pictures
with thread and needle". Her use of thread includes a great variety of yarns
of unusual textures as well as conventional embroidery stitches. She also
uses various colorful fabrics and antique lace in her applique and stitchery
pieces.
It is a pleasure to show to Sprin@eld the work of a person who has devoted
her life to her own expression and to helping others find ways to express
themselves visually.

Table of Contents
Birthplace. Springfield. Illinois ............... 1
Family Background ....................... 2
Education ........................... 4
Music Lessons-Ursuline.. Study of Art at the
Springfield Art Association and at the Art
Institute in Chicago.. Development of Interest
in Art.. Early Art Education
First Job ........................... 6
Mola ~aga's School ....................... 8
Springfield Art Association .................. 9
Copper Enameling ........................ 13
Stitchery ........................... 14
Vachel Lindsay ......................... 16
Elizabeth [Mrs.
Vachel] Lindsay ................ 18
Lincoln Library Award ..................... 19
TheoryofArt ......................... 19
- Ford Times1 Representative ................... 20
View on Nudes in Art ...................... 22
Art Collection ......................... 23
Participation in Exhibits ................... 24
Vachel Lindsay Association ................... 25

Preface
This manuscript is the product of a tape recorded interview conducted by
Melinda Kwedar in February of 1976. Rosalyn Bone rranscripted the tapes
and Francis Staggs edited the transcript.
Lillian Scalzo was born in Springfield, Illinois on April 17, 1900. Frpm
first grade through high school she went to Ursuline Academy. She studied
art on her om, and, after finishing high school, she studied art in
Springfield and Chicago. She became a friend and admirer of Vachel
Lindsay and was one of the founders of the Vachel Lindsay Assocation.
Lillian Scalzo taught art at Springfield Junrio College and at the Springfield
Art Association. For a while, she designed costumes for the Beaux Arts
Ball.
Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a
transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and
editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is
inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not
responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed
therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be
reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical,
without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon
State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708.

Lillian Scalzo, February, 1976, Springfield, Illinois.
Melinda Kwedar, Tntervlewer.
Q: Miss Scalzo, I think we'll start at the beginning with your birthdate.
What was the date of your birth?
A: April 17, 1900.
Q: Okay, and where were you born?
A: Right in this very room.
Q: In this room? Oh, my gosh.
A: In this very . . . (laughs)
Q: Well, I thought you were born in Springfield, but I certainly didn't
realize that it's this exact location. So you were born at home?
A: I was born at home, yes.
Q: Was there a doctor in attendance?
A: Oh yes, there was a doctor in attendance but we had no hospitals
for--just St. John's at that time and they took no births.
Q: Oh, they didn't?
A: Oh, no, not in 1900. So . . . (laughs)
Q: I didn't realize that. When did they . . .
A: They didn't start with births until the Springfield Hospital started.
Q: Springfield Hospital?
A: Yes, which is now Memorial Hospital [Memorial Medical Center]. And
they were the first ones that took births.
Q: Do you remember about what time that would have been?
A: That would have been about 1911.
Q: I see. So, everybody was born at home.

Lillian Scalzo 2
A: Everybody was born at home in those days. They always had nurses,
that came to the house.
Q: I see. And the doctor.
A: And the doctor, of course, came and stayed all day (laughs) if you
didn't, you know, if you didn't come right off. (laughs)
Q: Right. My gosh. Well, I didn't realize that. Now, could you tell
me a little about your parents, what kind of work your father may have
done or your mother.
A: My father was in the fruit business and he ran the Springfield Produce
and my mother, of course, did no work. (laughs) She was . . .
Q: Outside of the . . .
A: . . . she was just a housewife but she was a very fine musician.
Q: Oh, she was.
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of music did she . . .
A: Piano.
Q: Did she have any formal training in piano?
A: Oh, yes, yes. She had formal training in the piano. And she thought
that I should be a musician. So my early life was all piano and violin
instead of art.
Q: I see, yes. Now did she ever do any public recitals or anything . .
A; Oh, nothing like that except for in the city, you know.
Q: In the city. Here?
A: Oh, yes, yes, right here in town. You know how the clubs used to
[give recitals] and the churches would give recitals and she would play
for those.
Q: So she did some public work around Springfield.
A: Like that, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have any brothers or sisters?
A: No, I didn't have any brothers or sisters except my cousin that--you
see, my mother adopted her when she was four years old. Her mother died.
No, as she was only six months old. And then her father married again
and his second wife died and left another child four years old and my
mother had her. So we were raised up as sisters. And we didn't know

Lillian Scalzo 3
we weren't sisters until--we were kind of dumb in those days (laughs) and
I had no idea my cousin Mary wasn't my sister until I went to school.
And we both went to school together and one girl said she was wiser than
us. She said, "Oh, she's not your sister." And I said, "She is my
sister." "Well, she's got a different name than you."
Q: Different last name.
A: Yes, because it was my mother's brother. And with that I said,
'Well, she is my sister," and I belted her one. So when I came home I
was telling my mother and she says, "Well, you'll have to go back and
apologize because Mary isn't your sister." (laughs)
Q: Yes, and how much younger than . . .
A: We were four years difference in age, you see.
Q: 1 see. So you were four years when she came into the house.
A: Yes. So I really had sisters.
Q: Yes, and then the next one, how much younger was she, the next . . .
A: I was eleven years old when she came in. That's how I knaw that it
was about eleven years [after I was born] when the hospital took births
because she was the first one born at the hospital.
Q: Oh, I see. That would have been about 1911.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And this is the home that you . . .
A: Well, this was my grandfather and grandmother's home. And my mother
stayed here and lived with them. So . . .
Q: I see, so you lived with grandparents as you were growing up as well.
A: Yes.
Q: When was the house built, do you know?
A: Let's see, it's eighty-some years old. About eighty-two or three
years old. So that'd be in the eighteen something or the other.
Q: Eighteen nineties.
A: I guess, about in there. Yes.
Q: Right. Well, it really is quite old then, right?
A: Yes. (laughs)

Lillian Scalzo 4
Q: Did you ever feel that--when did you decide what you wanted to do
with your life? Do you remember? As far as a career was concerned or
what you'd like to do?
A: Well, in those days you were told what to do with your life. (lavghs)
You didn't decide. We were told where to go to school and I never thought
anything about it. I just drifted into art and that's it. I like to do
it.
Q: But you did say that your mother was anxious for you to go into
music.
A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I had to study music, I had piano lessons twice a
week, violin lessons twice a week, no art lessons at all. None, no.
Q: Were they available at the time?
A: No, they weren't. I went to the Ursuline Academy to school.
Q: Okay, yes, that's what I was going to . . . Now, did you start school
at Ursuline or is that . . .
A: Yes, I started to school at Ursuline.
Q: Like first grade.
A: Yes.
Q: So you went there through high school age?
A: Yes, graduated from there.
Q: Okay. Then after high school what did you d .o in way
A: Well, I had to wait until my cousin was graduated from high school.
So the two of us then went to Chicago and she decided to study music and
go on with music and then I went to the Art Institute to study art. I
got my first chance then to study art. But while I was waiting in-between
I went out to the Springfield Art Association. They had then commenced
to have classes. And they had an art director there who gave a few
lessons in drawing and painting and I went during those--well, for about
two years and then from then on, I went to the Art [Institute] in Chicago.
Q: Right. Now you graduated from high school in 19182
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, so it was around that time that the art association started to
have the classes?
A: Yes,
Q: And so you stayed for two years and then went to Chicago in around
1920, 19211

Lillian Scalzo
A: Twenty-one.
Q: Nineteen twenty-one. And then how many years did you study at the
Art Institute?
A: About two years there.
Q: And did they have a formal kind of curriculum or did you go like
eight hours a day or what was the arrangement?
A: This is a very formal school. You went everyday from nine in the
morning till four in the afternoon. And in the morning you did nothing
but draw from the model and in the afternoon was a11 different kinds of
techniques; like pen and ink and watercolor. The first years you mostly
did drawings and your second year you went into watercolor and oil. But
every year your morning classes were always drawing from the model.
Q: From a live person?
A: Live. Oh, yes.
Q: Now, was the two-year period the accepted course of study where . . .
A: Oh, yes, this is the accepted course.
Q: So after two years you in effect graduated from that.
A: Well, I didn't really graduate but we didn't go back because my
cousin had graduated in her music as far as she wanted to go and she
commenced teaching. And then we would go to summer school every summer.
Q: In Chicago?
A: In Chicago.
Q: I see. So when your cousin finished you and she came back to Springfield?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When did you start painting or when did you decide you had an
interest in art?
A: I guess not until I went to school. I didn't like music. It was to
=--it was real hard work and I wasn't good at it so I asked if I could
go to the Institute instead of studying music. So they let me. And
that's the only thing [that I decided], but never decided really, that I
was going to be an artist.
Q: One of the articles that 1 read said that you sold a painting at the
age of sixteen. Do you remember that? That that one was the first one
that you sold?

Lillian Scalzo 6
A: Well, yes, I remember that. But it wasn't really (laughs) nothing to
rave about. I think I painted the flag and somebody draped over a coffin
and somebody (laughs) was collecting flags. So the man bought the picture.
Q: I see. So you were working with things . . .
A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Q: . . , a11 the time.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Just on your own pretty much. Did they give any kind of art classes
at Ursuline? I mean was this . . .
A: No, we didn't have any art at all at Ursuline, no.
Q: Okay, so you came back to Springfield in about 1923 and what did you
do then?
A: I just worked for myself. I just drew pictures and oh, what most of
the Victorian girls were doing at that time. Going to the shows and
movies. (laughs)
Q: So you didn't have a job?
A: No, I had no work. No.
Q: And you lived at home with your parents?
A: Yes.
Q: And your cousin did as well?
A: Yes.
Q: So, then when did you . . . what was your first job outside the home?
A: I commenced teaching for Springfield Junior College when they opened
up the college, and the first year I took the art department and I taught
out there. That was my first job.
Q: Why did you decide to go to work at that point?
A: Well, I really wanted something to do and that was the only thing I
could find to do in Springfield because there was no opening in the
commercial art because I didn't letter or do anything like that. So the
only field that I could get into was to teach. And I didn't want to
teach in the public schools because when you graduated from the Art
Institute you didn't have a degree to teach in the public schools.
Q: Right. And they weren't giving art in the schools at that time,
anyway, right?

Lillian Scalzo 7
A: No.
Q: Okay. Around what year was that, do you remember when?
A: About in--I imagine about 1929.
Q: Nineteen twenty-nine.
Q: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that's when Spri .ngfield College opened up.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And how long did you teach there?
A: I really couldn't tell you. I told you I was terrible on dates.
(laughs)
Q: Okay, well, I have five years here so I assume that's close enough.
A: That'll be close enough.
Q: Okay. Can you tell me something about your job there, how you liked
it and what you were doing and so forth?
A: Well, my job was to teach on Saturday because it wasn't really connected
with the college. And they didn't have enough degrees to have an art
department, enough books or anything like that that would decide that
they could give a degree in art, don't you see.
Q: Oh, I see. So this was just an extra.
A: And this was just extra. So anyone who wanted to take art would take
it on a Saturday or I taught two nights a week for adults. We had adult
classes also.
Q: Through Springfield College.
A: Yes, And what I was teaching was actually commercial art. Because I
had studied during the summers I had studied commercial art. I didn't go
back to the Art Institute, I went to different places in Chicago. And
then I went to the Mola Naga School which was real Ear out, and studied
there, design.
Q: Now, where was that?
A: That was mostly design. And you use those things in commercial art,
don't you see. So I was teaching classes more like that than just painting
classes.
Q: Now this school that you were just talking about that you said was
far out, was that far out of Chicago or , . .

Lillian Scalzo 8
A: No, it was Mola Naga [who] came from Germany from the Bauhaus.
You've heard of the Bauhaus?
A: Yes.
A: And he opened this--it was during the Nazi time--and he opened this
school. He had to leave Germany. The Bauhaus was closed and he was one
of the great teachers there. And he came to Chicago and someone gave him
enough money to open this school and it was a very different school in
any kind of teaching we had here in the United States. For instance,
instead of having our model sit for--well, when you go to the Institute
the model would stay in the same position for the whole week and you drew
that on that painting, on that drawing all week long. But when you went
to his school you had to draw the moving figure. You only had six minutes
to do a moving figure. The figure would, for instance, if the figure was
standing it would commence to turn. The model would turn and you had to
catch each turn that it made as well as you could as quickly as you
could. And maybe at the end of a session you would have to have about--well,
up to about thirty or forty drawings.
Q: My gosh. So that each time a perspective would change, you would
redraw the whole thing.
A: Yes, maybe--well, as much as you could catch. Maybe you could just
catch the movement, maybe you just got part of the figure moving. The
figure would start standing and then moving to a chair and then seat
itself and move up out of the chair and then walk again with its back to
you and then turn and come and lie down on the floor and (laughs) it was
very exciting.
Q: Yes, I can imagine. Now what was the point of that, to train you to
...
A: Because Mola Naga's whole idea was that nothing now actually stands
still, Everything is moving. Your cars move by quickly, you don't
really stand and look at things but you move by things real quickly.
It's actually what he called vision in motion.
Q: Now, where was this school located?
A: In an old house on Michigan Avenue.
0
Q: In Chicago.
A: In Chicago, An old kind of a barn-like house. It didn't last long.
Q: How long were you . . . .
A: I just had two summers there.
Q: Oh, two summers. So he was there for two years.
A: Oh, he was there longer than that but I was only there two summers.
First, we had two summers and then the school closed for want of funds,

Lillian Scalzo 9
then it opened up again but I never went back any more. Because then; I
commenced teaching. !
Q: Did you feel that your training there was valuable?
A: Most valuable training that I had.
Q: Really?
A: Oh, yes. Definitely.
Q: Now your classes with Springfield Junior College you say were geared
toward commercial art.
A: Yes, more like illustration, pen and ink, and watercolor that you
would use in illustration. And dress design, everything like that.
Q: Was that your choice to . . .
A: No, that's what they wanted.
Q: I see. So they told you, in effect, what to teach, right? Or what
kind of thing they wanted. Okay. All right, so you taught with Springfield
Junior College for about five years and then did you go right to the
[Springfield] Art Association next?
A: Well, that was just kind of, oh, you might say an accident. I knew
the president, Mr. Trutter. And the Springfield Art Association was kind
of on the verge of closing up. Because it had no art classes and the
house was given to the [Springfield] Art Association with the stipulation
that it must always have an art class and if it didn't have or didn't
have a teacher to teach art classes, then they would lose the house.
Q: Now, this was the Edwards place?
A: The Edwards place, yes.
Q: The same house that they're using now.
A: Yes. It would revert back to the heirs. So Mr. Trutter was president
at the time and he was a great friend of mine and our family's and he
says, "We're just about to close up, Lillian." He says, "Do you think
you could just kind of start a class there?" He said, "And maybe we
could hold on.'' He says, "We can't pay you any salary or anything like
that." So I just started a class of a few or five or six women and I
said, "We'll just go out and paint together and we'll put up still lifes,"
because I wanted to paint, too, and I wasn't, you know, really getting
any painting in what between teaching and oh, doing housework and things
like that. (laughs) And so I was delighted with the idea so we started
with about six women and we brought our own still lifes but we weren't
really a class, yet. So after the first six months other people asked if
they could come in and join us--other women-and we said, "Yes." So then
Mr. Trutter says, t'Well, let's make it a class, ~illian," he said. "And
that way," he said, "let them pay you."

Lillian Scalzo 10
Q: The people that wanted . . .
A: The people . So, instead of me being able to paint
with them I just gradually drifted into being their teacher. So, that's
how the classes started at the art association.
Q: And at that time you were still teaching at Springfield Junior College.
A: Yes, I was there, yes. I was still there.
Q: So then from that first class, how did it expand to offering such a
wide variety?
A: You mean at the art association?
Q: Right.
A: Well, the first classes were nothing but people, women, who came who
had had painting in college and wanted to go back to it and had families.
They were a11 older women as you can see by this picture. And they had
painted before so most of them were doing watercolors or oils. And
that's what we did. And then the classes just naturally grew like topsy
and then after a time I was teaching three days a week instead of two
afternoons. So it became . . .
Q: Three full days.
A: Yes. So it became so heavy I gave up the junior college classes then
and I couldn't keep up both because I never had any time then to work for
myself.
Q: Right. So this was in the early l93Ots, you think around that time.
A: Yes. Around that time. Yes.
Q: Okay. So then can you tell me about some of the other classes that
you were involved in other than the painting?
A: Well, we weren't involved in the other classes until the Second World
War came on and people couldn't travel any more. They didn't have the
gasoline, and they wanted something to do so they started adult classes.
And the Springfield Art Association--then I had been really almost directing
all of the classes--they wanted me to direct these classes. So I got
different teachers to come out and we offered etchings and lithography
and pottery. And because people had nothing to do, don't you see, they
flocked to classes, And the tuition was very, very low. I think they
only paid about five dollars.
Q: For a semester?
A: For a whole sememster. Well, see, it was offered like by the city.
The city was actually paying all of the teachers' salaries.

Lillian Scalzo 11
Q: Oh they were! Wasn't that a private . . .
A: No, it was not a private thing at all. But we gave the [Springfield]
Art Association classrooms for them. And we had, actually, the first
pottery classes that were in Springfield. We didn't have a kiln, though.
I had a very good teacher from one of the public schools who had had
potter with
from Cranbrook but she couldn't teach pottery in
the schools because they didn't have it here. But she was delighted to
come out there, so we got the clay and we decided we'd find someplace in
Chicago to Eire the things. And we had to drive to Chicago with the
pottery and bring it back and forth. Then we found out that the Springfield
brickyard would fire them for us.
Q: Oh, well that was a little more convenient.
A: It was much better than going back and forth to Chicago. And after a
time we got a very small kiln, and it ws so successful that we talked
the school board into introducing pottery into the school.
Q: Oh, well good. That was great. So most of your teachers that you
recruited from town, were they teachers in the public schools?
A: No, they weren't. Now, the one woman who taught etching was Mss
Virginia Brown and she was caretaker at the Lincoln Home. But [she] had
done small etchings for herself and had an etching press, which we needed.
So she was delighted to teach out there. And then the one who taught
lithography, Mr. Bum, said he would buy us a lithograph press and stones
if we would get someone to teach lithography. So a young man that I had
taught at Springfield Junior College had been to Chicago and had had a
little bit of lithography. So I got him to teach.
Q: So you recruited these people. They were more or less personal
acquaintances.
A: They were personal acquaintances and I always attended the classes
because that way I learned also. (laughs)
Q: Right. So you were a participant in these classes?
A: Oh, yes, yes.
Q: Okay. I think one of the articles talked about a class in art appreciation.
Did you teach that at one time?
A: Oh yes. No, I didn't teach it but I always gave it because I found
out that if you talked to people and let them see art that they would
change their opinions about art. See, I was trying to bring them up-to-date.
But you can't bring people up-to-date unless they know something or see
something. So I just gave those on my own.
Q: Oh, 1 see. Did you talk about the history of art at all or was it
just a matter of . . .

Lillian Scalzo 12
A: No, I didn't talk about the history of art. What I wanted them to
know was all about [Pablo] Picasso and [Henri] Matisse and all the people
that they hated and that I liked. So I would gather--I was a book collector
and a picture collector, a proof collector--so I would bring a11 of my
things and talk as much as I possibly could to make them understand, if I
could, what these artists were trying to do. So most of it was from the
Impressionists up to the contemporary people.
Q: I see, Did you feel that you made any headway there?
A: Yes, I felt that I made a great deal because lots of times--I still
feel I did--because lots of times I meet people and they say, "Miss
Scalzo, we didn't understand you at the time, but we see now just exactly
what you were talking about."
Q: Well, that's great.
A: But it was a little discouraging at the time. (laughs)
Q: Yes, I can imagine. Did you also teach a class of ballet?
A: No.
Q: About ballet?
A: Oh no, but I had studied ballet and I imagine that's what really
turned me to art because I enjoyed the costumes more than the dancing.
And I have always painted dancers and then when we commenced with the
ball, I designed their costumes.
Q: For the Beaux Arts Ball?
A: Yes, because they always had a kind of sketch instead of what it is
now. See now it's more like a de beaux project but the early balls were
always done with a certain theme and that theme would require so many of
the girls to be dressed like the Great Waltz. They had thirty couples
doing the Great Waltz. Then we had the Jewel Ball and we had a Lithuanian
Ball. The very first ball was a costume ball and Vachel Lindsay was one
of the judges for that ball.
Q: You remember what year that was?
A: No, I really don't.
Q: Probably in the 1930ts?
A: No, I don't think so. I think that it would be earlier, it seems
like to me. Because I was still in art school.
Q: Oh.
A: Yes. I wasn't teaching then. But I remember the ball.

Lillian Scalzo
Q: So it was late 19201s, right?
A: It must have been. Yes.
Q: But you made the costumes for them or you designed the costumes?
A: I would design the costumes and about ten of the women would order
their material from theatrical companies and make the costumes. They
were perfectly beautiful.
Q: My gosh, what a project. (laughter) I thought it was a lot of work
now.
A: Oh no, their project was terrific, especially when they made the
thirty costumes for the Great Waltz. See, what you had to do was consider
expense, So you made a basic pattern and then you would change that so
that each girl was different.
Q: Oh, my gosh. So they weren't just identical dresses, all thirty of
these,
A: Oh no, they weren't identical. Oh no, they were all different dresses.
Q: What about architecture? Did you teach a class about that one time?
A: No, I didn't. No, I never did anything in architecture.
Q: One of the articles mentioned a silver wire bowl as a kind of . . .
A: Well, that would be in enameling, I imagine. Now we commenced to do
an enameling class and naturally as I said, I always joined the classes
so that's how I took up enameling.
Q: Now, is this copper enameling?
A: Yes, that's copper enameling.
Q: And how was this done? Simply? (laughter)
A: The enamels are powders and they hardly show what color they are
going to be until they have been baked in a real high heat in an enamel
oven. And you shake them on like little aalt shakers. And it has to be
stuck in the kiln right away. Maybe it's in only a minute or two minutes
and they melt and they form like a glass, and that's what makes the
beauty of the enamel.
Q: And this is done on?
A: On copper.
Q: On copper.
A: Yes.

Lillian Scalzo 14
Q: That's interesting. I wonder, do they still do that out there, do
you know?
A: No, they don't do it any more. Not since I quit teaching. I taught
it out there,
Q: Then you did after your first initiation . . .
A: Oh yes, after my first [class] I became the teacher.
Q: What about ceramics, did you do work there or teach it?
A: Yes, I never taught ceramics but 1've done a lot of ceramics.
Q: Now this article also mentioned stitchery collage?
A: Well, yes, I got into stitchery just a few years ago and have had
done quite a bit of stitchery since then,
Q: What kind are you talking about?
A: One of the pictures was in the book. She was holding one.
Q: Can you tell me how this is done?
A: Just like you were embroidering with a needle and all different color
thread.
Q: And your materials that you use are . . .
A: Materials are up to you. Whatever you want to use.
Q: Any kind of a fabric, then, right?
A: Any sort of fabric. You could get the stitcheries that are in the
drawer there.
Q: You do have some at home?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Now, is this work that you've done on your own, right, since the
[Springfield] Art Association?
A: Oh, I've done this always on my own. I've done all my work on my
own.
Q: Yes, but I mean this was not a class that you taught?
A: No, I never taught stitchery. I just do it for myself. It's a
little tedious and a very long drawn out thing. It takes months maybe
for you to do one. So people now--enameling is different. Enameling is
done right at the moment. Maybe you can turn out ten or twelve pair of
earrings in a morning. Because it has to be done quickly. But stitchery's

Lillian Scalzo 15
done very slowly and it's a very tedious job.
not very many people want to do it.
And so you really don't,
Q: Is this like crewelwork and those kinds of things?
A: Yes, those kinds of things.
Q: They are lovely products when they're finished. This is one that
you're working on?
A: This isn't finished.
Q: Well, that's lovely.
A: See what they are?
Q: Yes, I can see that. How did you learn to do those stitches?
A: Well, you have to make up your mind how--you learn these stitches
from books, of course, and practice them up and then you go ahead.
Q: You decided which to use where yourself.
A: Yes, that's right.
. . .
Q: Well, that's very, very pretty. And you've been working on that just
A: Well, when I broke my legs.
Q: Last year.
A: Yes. See, that's the way it goes.
Q: Yes, that is very, very nice.
A: But you use whatever materials you wish. Now a great many people--
hardly anybody uses lace, but I'm very fond of lace and collected a lot
of it. So I use a lot of lace.
Q: How did you collect lace?
A: Well, I don't know. When you go to Salvation Army stores and places
like that. See, this was an old lace collar,
Q: Yes, I can see that there.
A: I had about . . .
Q: Oh, that was the actual collar.
A: That was the actual collar. I had about ten lace collars that I did
but I don't think that I have any of them, I think they're all sold.

Lillian Scalzo 16
Q: Now you are still selling some of these products?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Is this just through word of mouth?
A: That's all.
Q: And somebody who wants to come and look at it?
A: Oh, yes, yes.
Q: You told me that you knew Vachel Lindsay. Can you tell me about
that?
A: Well, I knew him after he'd returned to Springfield to make his home.
I meant him and went to the house. And he used to--after we'd have
dinner in the dining room--we'd sit around the table, he and Roman Proctor,
who was the puppeteer, and his wife, Mrs. Proctor, and Vachel would give
each of us a different colored pencil. He would have a pencil, a different
color and he would start. You see, Vachel's--many of his poems are done
after he has done his drawings.
Q: Oh, I see. So it started with the art work.
A: Be always found himself an artist and not a poet. He signed himself
Vachel Lindsay, artist.
Q: Well, I wasn' t aware of that.
A: And he would start a scribble, what you would call a scribble and he
would pass it to each one of us to make a picture out of it. And if you
couldn't see any picture in it, then you would pass it on to the next
person and [on to] whoever saw the picture. And then [that person] would
pass [it] back to him and he would write the poem under it, right then
and there. And maybe you'd do about twenty of those of an evening.
Q: Twenty.
A: Well, he could scribble real fast.
Q: And he could write the poems as quickly as that?
A: Oh, it was terrific. It was just terrific what he could do. And
once in a while he would give us one.
Q: Give you a poem?
A: Well, give us the finished thing, the poem and the drawing but most
all of them he kept really himself.
Q: Do you have any of them?

Lillian Scalzo 17
A: I had two of them but I gave them to the house. They're down in the
house framed. And Roman Proctor gave his, too, to the [Springfield Art]
Association.
Q: Now on those were the finished product of the art work, did he go
ahead if--like if you made a picture of it then was your picture on the
finished product?
A: Yes, it was on the finished product. Yes. Yes, you would just
acutally, maybe you saw a bird in it, an owl or something like that.
Well, you would just finish it on but you would keep the same flow of
lines he did. See, that's the reason he wouldn't ask a great many people
because a lot of people couldn't . . .
Q: I was going to say, I would think you'd have to be very artistic . .
A: You had to really be the same type of artist. See, that was the type
of artist that the Bauhaus showed. [The type of drawing] was that you
did continuous lines, you didn't raise your hand off the paper. And you
never drew with your fingers, you always draw with your whole body and
your whole arm.
Q: So how many years did you bow Vachel Lindsay?
A: Up until the time he died.
Q: And you knew his family as well?
A: Yes.
Q: Did his wife come on these little social affairs?
A: Oh, she was always--it was down at his house. It was inside the
house.
Q: Oh, I see. So he invited you into these.
A: Yes. It was always done at his house.
Q: Now, this one picture you have [is] of him giving a recitation for
the [Springfield] Art Association.
A: Yes.
Q: Did he do that quite often?
A: Not quite often. But when he returned to Springfield to live they
invited him to have a one-man show of his own paintings. And it was the
first one-man ahow that he ever had. So the three rooms that are parlors
now was our gallery at that time. And he came and hung his paintings
there and then he gave a recital of his poems. And that's when he recited
the Chinese Nightingale.

Lillian Scalzo 18
Q: This was one time that this happened or did it happen . . .
A: Yes. No, it just happened that once.
Q: Was this fairly well-attended?
A: It was very, very well-attended. People were sitting on the steps
and outside. It was beautifully attended.
Q: That's great. I had heard that he was not too popular here in town,
or at least people thought he was nuts or whatever.
A: Well, most people felt that he was odd. (laughter) And different.
Q: I suppose he probably was.
A: Naturally, but he had a great many friends and there were quite a few
of us that appreciated it. So naturally they all appeared and they were
delighted. But I remember when I was at school at the Ursuline Academy,
he came out many times to recite his poems for the school.
Q: Oh really?
A: Yes. And you know, he has many poem like the Potato Dance and those
things that you join in and the students would all join in. They just
loved to have him.
Q: Yes, I didn't realize that he went to--did he go to public schools,
too?
A: Yes, he'd go wherever he was invited, He was a very social person
and loved to have people recite with him. Vachel had the idea that
poetry was not to be read--which it isn't--it's supposed to be read abud
or recited aloud so that many people can enjoy it.
Q: In other words, it wasn't to be read silently, right?
A: No. It's like a song or something that you can even dance to. You
know, many of his poems you can dance to.
Q: Yes, I know about the drums, the beating of the drums. Did you know
about his private life? His relationship to his wife? Now, he did not
have an actual occupation at this time, right? This was his life.
A: Yes, he was just here. He didn't have any occupation at that time.
He wasn't teaching or lecturing. He was just writing the whole time he
was here.
Q: And his wife did not work outside of the home either?
A: No. She was writing, though, also.
Q: Oh, I see.

Lillian Scalzo 19
A: And I think that she was a poet in her own right. And I think that
someone out in California has collected her poems and is publishing them.
Q: Oh, really?
A: Yes.
Q: Now what was her first name?
A: Elizabeth.
End of Side One, Tape One
Q: Lillian, you received an award given by the Lincoln Library. Can you
tell me about that?
A: Well, the Lincoln Library each year was picking out someone who had
done something for Springfield and they thought that T had done more for
the art in Springfield to make it more popular than anyone else, so
that's the reason they picked me. It wasn't for my painting but for all
the work I'd done for the [Springfield] Art Association and promoting art
in Springfield. Because we had not only had adult painting classes, but
we also had children's classes. Maybe as many as a hundred children on
Saturdays. And I had brought real good exhibits for the [Springfield]
Art Association, so that's the reason they had picked me out more than
for my painting itself. I'm pretty sure that was it. (laughs)
Q: This was in April of 1960, I see. And so [then] they had a dinner.
A: Yes, they would always have a dinner where anyone in the city could
come and they always had an outside speaker.
Q: That must have been very nice.
A: Well, it was really nice, yes.
Q: Let's see now. I have a quotation here that you said, "The way to be
a painter is to paint.'' And I was just wondering what part that you
thought instruction has in this.
A: I don't think that instruction had any part at all.
Q: Really?
A: I think what you have to do is to inspire the person to be himself
and let himself go and do his thing, in other words. The only part that
instruction comes into is the use of your material, how to use your brush
and your paint and your canvas, or your watercolor paper, but the whole
thing is actually to inspire the person to forget himself and be himself.
Q: So in your teaching, I assume, you just felt that you were teaching
how to use materials, is that right?

Lillian Scalzo 20
A: That's all I did, really.
Q: What about things like perspective and that kind of art. Are there
techniques for teaching someone how to interpret, how to put this on
paper, you know, how to get this perspective?
A: There are techniques, but perspective and the mechanics of art really
count very, very little.
Q: But you can teach this, right?
A: Yes, you can teach it. But I think when you teach it you kill the
personality of the person. The person tightens up and becomes so conscious
of doing perspective or something in that order that the person is not
himself any more and he is not interpreting what he sees. What you
actually teach is to teach the person how to see. Before a person studies,
many of them that come into your class never have looked at anything.
They don't know what a leaf actually looks like until you bring in a leaf
and show them how beautiful it is, the line it has and that every leaf is
different from the other leaf, no matter if it comes from the same tree
or not. That even a blade of grass, the way it curves is just beautiful.
And one blade of grass or one line on a paper is beautiful. It doesn't
have to have perspective. Perspective is a necessity if you're doing
commercial art and requires something of that type. But when you're
teaching a class who is going to be nothing but painters you don't have
to do anything like that. What you have to do is to teach them how to
see, to use their eyes.
Q: I see. But if the student wanted to learn, you know, if they, in
essence, had a still life or something and they needed or felt like they
wanted a perspective in there you could say, "Well, you can do it this,
that, or the other way."
A: Well, you teach them how to see that one object is behind the other
object, but you don't just actually teach them perspective any more.
Because if the thing is out of perspective, like a great many of [Jean
Charles] ~azin's paintings, the table is tipped. They are not in perspective,
but they are magnificent paintings.
q: Right. Okay. All right, now, you had some of your paintings about
New Salem that was in a publication called Ford Times? --
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me how this came about? Were you contacted for this?
--
A: Oh, yes. Those were the first ones that I had done for Ford Times.
--
Ford Times really looks up an artist in a certain district and they
contact the artist to maybe do an eating place that is famous for a
certain recipe. Have you ever noticed the recipes in the eating places
in the back?
Q: Right.

Lillian Scalzo 2 1
A: Well, they had contacted me to do an eating place here in Springfield
called--I can't think of it now--so that's how I became their representative
here in this area.
Q: How did they how about you?
A: They had seen one of my watercolors in a watercolor show. The director
had. And he then contacted me and asked me if I would do this one painting.
And I did that and then from then on I did many paintings besides the New
Salem one. I did one of a group of paintings for Masters--oh, what's the
name of his now? Edgar Lee Masters.
Q: Oh, Edgar Lee Masters, right.
A: I did his . . .
Q: His home?
A: No, not his home.
Q: His book, you mean?
A: Yes, his book.
Q: I see. Spoon River Anthology?
A: Yes, I did a number of paintings for that. And then a great many
eating places and different old houses and things through Illinois.
Q: Now, were you paid for this?
A: Oh, yea. They give you a contract and they pay you so much a picture
and so much time to do it in. You have limited time to do it so they'll
be ready for publication.
Q: Why did they do New Salem?
A: Well, New Salem--they do many things to attract people for travel.
Ford Times is a travel book. --
Q: Ford automobile.
A: Yes, so New Salem was the new and great attraction for travelers so
that's the reason they did New Salem.
Q: And how long did it take you to do those?
A: I had a month to do them in.
Q: A month. And how many did you do?
A: I think there are eight or nine in there. I don't remember. You can
do as many as you wish. It's up to you.

Lillian Scalzo
Q: This was in 1959, I see, right?
A: Yes. (counts paintings) I did seven.
Q: Oh, I missed the two on the back. Now, how did you do these?
A: Oh, I went out and sketched them and then I took photographs. And
then I came back and painted them, because they have to be done twice the
size or maybe four times the size. They're bigger than this table when
they're done. They're quite large.
And what kind 05 paint did you use?
I used casein with a pallet knife.
And what is casein?
Casein is a heavy watercolor.
So the affect is somewhat like . . .
Oil.
Like oil.
Yes.
Did you ever teach a class on household gadgets? Using household
gadgets?
A: No. No.
Q: T saw that in one of those articles and I thought well.
A: No.
Q: That didn't sound too much like your line. One time you were quoted
as saying--talking about painting nudes and you said that you had to "be
in a nudi mood." (laughter)
A: No, when I was doing enamelings I did a great many nudes in enamel
which are very difficult to do.
Q: Oh, I can imagine.
A: Yes, and that's the reason I said, "You have to be in a nudi mood."
And I love nudes. I think they're the most beautiful thing you can do.
Q: Yes. What is a "nudi mood?"
A: Well, you just feel at that time that you want to do a nude instead
of doing sorething else. You're inspired by nudes.

Lillian Scalzo 23
Q: With a lot of your training at the [Springfield] Art Association and
so forth you said live models were used. Were they . . .
A: Not at the [Springfield] Art Association, we never had any models at
all. We had nothing but still lifes.
Q: At the Art Institute in Chicago?
A: Oh, at the Art Institute, yes. Well, most all the schools have a
great many--they always have a class in nudes. They do now out at Sangamon
State, ~ ' m sure.
Q: Yes. I think they do at the [Springfield] Art Association now, too,
from what I understand.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Did you ever have a problem of conflict between a choice of marriage
or a career?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever feel that you've been discriminated against because you
were a woman?
A: No,
Q: Treated differently or didn't get what you should have gotten or
anything like that?
A: No, I guess because I was too busy and I enjoyed what I was doing so
much I never thought of it.
Q: Did you think that you had any special problems that a man might not
have had?
A: No.
Q: All right. Now your home here you told me is eight years old and I
was told that you have a collection here, an art collection?
A: Yes, I have a beautiful collection of prints and I have a wonderful
collection of books,
Q: Now, are your prints up and around or [do] you have them in a special
room?
A: No, I don't put them around. I just take one out at a time and look
at it. I don't believe in having so much around. That's a print there.
Q: Oh, I see.
A: That's a silk screen of Sister Mary

Lillian Scalzo 24
Q: ~hat'a beautiful. So you just periodically change what you put like
in this place.
A: Yes. I have about ten Candides. And I have Caillavets and
and I have about . . .
Q: These are originals, right?
A: Theee are all originals. About twenty-five old Japanese prints.
Q: Oh, great. So how many . . .
A: I have no idea how many I have. I'm one of those collectors that
just collect. (laughter) I'm an awful person. I collect everything.
(laughs) Just everything. Even junk. Even string and rope. I love
rope.
Q: String and rope, you collect?
A: Oh, yea. (laughs) Oh, it comes in handy. 1t's beautiful on pictures.
1t's beautiful in stitchery.
Q: Yes, I can imagine it would be. You have a in tapestry?
A: No, I don't.
Q: I see here you have a scrapbook and there are many articles, newspaper
articles, that have been written about you from about 1938 or 1939. I
see that there is a picture of what's said to be one of your first art
classes, And 1946, here is a painting that, watercolor called "Swan
Lake." You received a prize for this?
A: Yes.
Q: Now who gave the prize?
A: Well, it was the--it was in Decatur, the show was, and we had what we
called the Central Art Association with this kind of like . . .
Q: Oh, provincial kind or district.
A: District kind of Illinois artists.
Q: Let's see. Did you participate in a lot of exhibits and shows an
forth?
A: Not too many. It was too much work,
Q: Oh, really? (laughter)
A: Well, it is. Getting them ready and sending them off and back.
Q: Yes, I can think it would be. Here you are honored by a reception
here at the [Springfield] Art Association and here's about Vachel Lindsay.

Lillian Scalzo 25
Let's see, you have a unique art course here. Well, thia talks about the
course in architecture focusing on Frank Lloyd Wright. Was this a course
that was given? Do you remember?
A: Yes.
Q: Oh, you have been a member of the Vachel Lindsay Association, right?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: And how long have you been involved in that?
A: Ever since its beginning. I was one of the founders of it.
Q: You were an officer?
A: Yes.
Q: Which office did you hold?
A: Well, I was vice-president for I don't know how many years. (laughs)
Q: And your main duty there was to . , . to what? Just keep up the
house?
A: Well, that's most of our duty is to keep up the house and help out
Elizabeth [Graham] when she needs help to go through the house.
Q: Did you do some tours yourself?
A: Oh, yes, yes. And then whenever she had a program. I gave two
programs for them, one on Vachel Lindsay as an artist and then I gave
another program on--I always stuck to his art part. But that was about
all you do with the Vachel Lindsay Society.
Oh, sometimes you take
certain visitors through when Elizabeth can't, but she's there most of
the time.
Q: Right. Now here is a publication in 1970 talking about . . .
A: Well, that's the International Enamel Show in which I had a piece of
enamel.
Q: Okay. And this was in 1970.
A: Yes. That was quite an honor because that was International.
Q: Right. I can see that it is. It's very nice.
End of Tape