Leland J. Kennedy Memoir - University of Illinois Springfield

University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Leland J. Kennedy Memoir
K384. Kennedy, Leland J. (1908-1990)
Interview and memoir
28 tapes, 1,333 mins., 2 vols., 282 pp., plus index
ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Leland Kennedy, Democratic member of the Illinois House of Representatives
1947-55 and 1963-75, discusses his years in the General Assembly: Illinois
political figures, issues, and controversies; 1946 campaign and election;
personalities in the legislature, legislative technique, issues in banking, public aid,
agriculture, industry, and unions. He also discusses his family background in
Alton, Illinois, employment with Shell Oil Company, early political activities,
service on the Alton City Council, his service in WWII, and work as an
administrative aide to Illinois House Speaker William Redmond.
Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1982
OPEN
See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photocopied photographs of Kennedy.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees

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ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
PREVIOUS TITLES IN SERIES
Martin B. Lohmann Memoir, 1 Vol. (1980)
Bernice T. Van der Vries Memoir, 3 Vols. (1980)
Walter J. Reum Memoir, 2 Vols. (1980)
Thomas A. McGloon Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
John W. Fribley Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
Charles W. Clabaugh Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Cecil A. Partee Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Elbert S. Smith Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Frances L. Dawson Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Robert W. McCarthy Memoir, 2 Vols. (1983)
John C. Parkhurst Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984)
Corneal A. Davis Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984)
Cumulative Index, 1980-1984
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir, 1 Vol. (1985)
William A. Redmond Memoir, 2 Vols. (1986)
John G. Gilbert Memoir, 1 Vol. (1986)
Paul J. Randolph Memoir, 1 Vol. (1986)
William L. Grindle Memoir, 2 Vols. (1986)
Gale Williams Memoir, 2 Vols. (1986)
Robert L. Burhans Memoir, 1 Vol. (1987)
Esther Saperstein Memoir, 2 Vols. (1987)
Leland Rayson Memoir, 1 Vol. (1987)
Donald O'Brien Memoir, 1 Vol. (1988)
George Dunne Memoir, 1 Vol. (1988)

LELAND J. KENNEDY
ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
1 947- 1 955 AND 1 963- 1 975
COURTESY OF ILLINOIS BLUE BOOK

Preface
This oral history of Leland J. Kennedy's service in the Illinois House of Representatives is
a product of the Illinois Legislative Research Unit's General Assembly Oral History
Program. The oral history technique adds a distinctive new dimension to the unit's statutory
responsibility for performing research and collecting information concerning the government
of the state.
Leland J. Kennedy was born in Alton, Illinois on December 3, 1908. He was educated in
the public and parochial schools of Alton. For a quarter century he worked as an operating
engineer at the Shell Oil Refinery in Wood River, Illinois.
Mr. Kennedy developed an early interest in politics, volunteering in Democrat campaigns
during the 1930s. Before World War I1 he was elected alderman on the Alton city
council. From 1943 to 1945 he served in the US. Army Engineers Corps, and was wounded
in a truck accident in France. Returning to Alton after the war, he reentered politics as
chairman of the local young men's Democrat club. In 1946 he was elected to the Illinois
House of Representatives, serving four successive terms (1947-55) and another six terms
(1963-75). Early in his legislative career he met and married Mary Eileen Cain of
Springfield. They raised two children.
As a state legislator Mr. Kennedy played an active role in the diverse issues of his time.
He worked hard to promote the interests of his district and constituents, and of southern
Illinois generally. An acute observer of the political scene, he has filled his memoir with
descriptions of the major controversies and personalities of the time. On several occasions
he considered running for statewide office. Upon his retirement from the General Assembly
in 1974, he became an administrative aide to the Speaker of the House William A. Redmond.
Readers of this oral history should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken
word. Its informal, conversational style represents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor
and to tap the narrator's memory. However, persons interested in listening to the tapes
should understand that editorial considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from
the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should be regarded as a
primary historical source, as no effort was made to correct or challenge the narrator.
Neither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Sangamon State University is responsible
for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the
reader to judge.
The tape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the spring of
1982. Mr. Waggoner was born in 1924 in Waggoner, a small farm-service community in central
Illinois. At age 18, he enlisted for military service in World War I1 and, as a U. S.

Table of Contents
Note on page location:
Volume I: pages 1-134
Volume 11: pages 135-271
Preface ...................................................................................................................................................
The Years Before .................................................................................................................................
Family background - Irish-German ancestry - Education in Alton - Social
and family life - Career as operating engineer at Shell Oil Company -
Early political activity - Alton City Council - World War I1 service and
injury - Marriage and family
The General Assembly Years ...........................................................................................................
1946 campaign and election - Legislative personalities - Legislative technique
and style - Public aid issues - Banking regulation - Agricultural
affairs - Industry andpion issues - Retirement
The Years After ...................................................................................................................................
Administrative aide for William Redmond - Governor Dan Walker -
Retirement activities
Index .......................................................................................................................................................
Illustrations following page 64
vii

Volume I
Leland J. Kennedy
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1
Q: When were you born sir?
A: December 3,1908.
Q: And where were you born?
A: Alton, Illinois.
Q: What part of Alton?
A: Well, in Upper Alton on Mills Street. It was the only home my dad ever owned. We
weren't there very long. And then we moved down to - my dad was with the glassworks
- and we moved down to Broadway, in what they called the lower block, it's all Rats above
the old Princess Theater and the furniture store and places like that. We weren't there
very long and then we moved up on Washington Avenue in 1912 when I was four years old
and my dad was with the glassworks. And I stayed there for 726 months. (chuckles)
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: Sixty and a half years, yes, that's just before we came out here.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: So that would be the formation of my life, that house. It was a duplex house at 926-928
Washington Avenue. And that was referred to as maybe Glassblowers Row at that
time. Prior to that time the Owens-Illinois had the glassblowers you know, and my dad
wasn't a glassblower but he succeeded them. A Mr. Ferguson hired him. IIe came over
from Edwardsville and he and my mother were married in 1904. They were born in
Edwardsville.
My parents were born in Edwardsville, Illinois, and my maternal grandparents were born
in Germany and my paternal grandparents were born in Ireland. And all four of my grandparents
came into the States young, and as far as I can - threc of the four of them, I've
found that they landed around 1848 or 1849 or 1850, and I've just assumed that my grandmother
- my maternal grandmother was the one that I've never been able to trace - must
have been somewhere in that vicinity as a girl because they all landed in Edwardsville. How

2
they got up there, I don't know. Worked
must have, that's all that I can figure.
their way up the Mississippi River, their parents
I don't know that that's the way it was, but I've been back to Ireland and saw the place
where my grandparents were born and done a little research over there, to no avail
though. I wasn't there that long. I was there just on a tour, maybe three or four weeks.
I think I mentioned to you that - the first time I met you, the only time 1 met you -
that my approach to politics I guess was just natural. My grandfather was - Grandfather
Thomas H. Kennedy - was an elected official in Madison County, and they ran for oflice
at that time and they had a county assessor at some part, and he was that for a number
of years, and he was nominated for sheriff, on the Democratic ticket as far as I can discern,
but he took ill and died before the election. He died when my dad and - my dad had one
sister and they were like six and eight.
But my mother came from a large family. There were nine children in my mother's
family. Eight girls and one boy. And you mentioned Elbert Smith, one of my cousins was
a social friend of his in Decatur. They were the shoe people - the Brown Shoe people,
or something like that. Of course he died, and my cousin remarried and I don't see much
of my relatives much anymore.
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 (EXTRACT)
One thing I recall though that my dad - and this helped me in politics - the glassworks
was still running. They had the automatic machines that followed the glassblowers. My
dad was an automatics foreman, one of the foremen on the line, and he was just above the
line as a foreman. He had a - what they called carry-in and carry-out. And it was hard
labor.
And they hired a lot of blacks to do that. And they called my dad "Mr. Joe." My dad
would hire them right off the street. He had to have permission. And the blacks at that
time, they lived either up on - oh, there was a settlement of them in Upper Alton and
then there's some of them on Bell Street. Rut I'd meet - as I started I'd meet some black
people that knew my dad, "Mr. Joe? Oh, he hired me, he hired my brother when he was
a kid. And if you're Mr. Joe's boy you're alright." And things like that.
And just to tell you how long people are living now, I just saw in the obituary in the last
week or so that the wife of one of these fellows died, and this guy is still dive, and hell,
he's got to be in his nineties. (laughter) Can you imagine Mrs. Uangrease being ninetytwo?
Well this guy, he's got to be up there too, but his name was Hickman. His name is
Hickman and his wife just died in the last, oh, thirty days.
Q: Now your father - now let's see, is this - where did he learn his trade as a glassblower?
A: Well he didn't - he wasn't a glassblower. IIe was a - he worked for the Illinois Tcrminal
[Railroad].
Q: Oh?
A: And he wasn't a glassblower. He came after the glassblowers. The glassblowers came
at the turn of the century I guess and they worked up till - oh, it was about that plant
that the automatic machine came out and that was in the teens, in the - oh I don't know,
1915 or 1916, I'm not sure of that. But he wasn't a glassblower.
Where the glassblowers learned their trade, I guess that's a damned good question. They
just - there had to be a school. Maybe the - I know that when I lived on Washington
Avenue - I mentioned that I lived there for 726 months, and that I did, but the house right

next to us was a duplex house and a man by the name of Halton, he was the secretary-treasurer
of the glassblowers' nationwide organization and I talked to him. He was their
secretary-treasurer. Of course his are all gone, they never had any bo~+s, they had two girls
and those girls died as young women.
But I'm sure they had - of course that's where the circus used to unload. That's down
by Sports and Sporgue. That's down on lower Broadway. I go to a filling station down
there three or four times a month. The glassworks are still there and those railroad tracks
are still there. And Sports and Sporgue are a shopping center now but of course there were
a lot of taverns there you know, in those days the glassblowers made bottles and they put
beer in bottles you know.
Q: Yes. (laughter) Well. Yes sir.
A: And they'd frolic and drink but you know that's a good - I don't know how they learned
that trade. I guess, oh hell, they had to learn it because you couldn't . . .
Q: What did your dad do at the Terminal Railroad?
A: Well he was a brakeman. He broke his leg on there and that's why he couldn't fulfill
his job. Ferguson was a big name in Alton. I guess it still is in Alton's past history. He,
I suppose, was a large stockholder in the old Illinois Glass and he was in the Terminal. If
there's any of his family left, I don't know that. And he got my dad a job at the
glassworks. And my dad had enough gumption I guess, and know-how about industry, to
get a job as a foreman. And he was a foreman on the automatics and - not too long though
because of an illness.
Well my dad had a chance to go to England. And I was talking to this Bob Levis about
that in the last couple of years. Morford who was a glassblower who made the connection
in England to take a number of old glassblowers or old automatic people and the machine
people, the automatic machines, over to England. And they did go.
My mother wouldn't go. I wasn't very old then. I was still in grade school. My mother
wouldn't go. I had a younger brother and an older sister. My sister's been dead about three
years. She just wouldn't go. And that could have angered the Levis people because it
seemed like those fellows who were interviewed to go and didn't go, it seemed like almost
to a man, and over a period of three, five or ten years, lost out down at the
glassworks. That's when you didn't have any grievances or seniority or anything like that.
But getting back to what Levis - he said they - I asked him about that. We were talking
about it and I don't know how that came up but he said, "The Illinois" - that plant's still
over there, that was one that became one of the Owens-Illinois' holdings. They bought some
foreign factories. The Moffatt family, they aligned with the Levis and Moffatt line to get
control of it. I haven't seen any of the Wall Street Journal or any of the business
papers. That's what he told me. It hasn't been too long since he told me that because we
were down at the glassworks for - they had the General Assembly down and some dignitaries
and the mayor of the town. And he was there and that's where I talked to him.
Q: You mentioned the Washington Street place where you lived. What are your earliest
memories of that particular home?
A: Well we had a hill there on the side of Averill Avenue where we used to coast on that
and we had a big - a lot of these glassworkers stayed on on the automatics and there was
a number of them there and they'd always have the, oh, maybe a big summer picnic and
there was woods down there and they'd clear it off and they had swings and they'd have
turtle soup. I remember that. And, oh, I remember the streetcars and the ice storm that
happened in 1924 when all of the lines - one thing I can recall definitely - and if you

would check you would tind that Woodrow Wilson died on a Sunday in early 1924. And the
Alton Telegraph put out an extra. And they called the various paper carriers. 1 was a
full-fledged paper carrier by that time and we sold extras of that. Wilson died and the Telegraph
called us out to sell extras.
But you mentioned Washington Avenue. Of course I was there as I said sixty years. That's
when they'd have those political rallies. I remember maybe over on - there was an old
polling - we'd vote at the Nineteenth Precinct. There was a polling place over at the Twentieth
Precinct. On Hillcrest there was a vacant hall there and these various mayoralty
candidates would have the rallies there. Mayor of Alton. There would be, always be -
I never recall a mayor's candidate without more than - at least two running. And they'd
have these brass bands you know, there was always somebody tooting a horn and they'd
whoop it up and give the kids - they didn't have - I don't recall them having any drinks
or anything like that. They might have had soda pop or something like that. But they
had neighborhood rallies.
Q: Was this by torchlight then?
A: Yes. Sure. Oh, and they had, sure, that's what they were, they'd have parades. They'd
parade around different sections of town. Oh I remember many of those, many. Whether
the term is torchlight - I guess it could be used. They weren't like they were at the Tammany
Hall or Daley's machine in Chicago or maybe the machine in Springfield, if there is one.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 (CONTINUED)
And - oh, I'd read the paper and see political parades and in those days you didn't have
television and I doubt if you even had radio, 1 don't remember, I guess it might have been
coming. But they'd have neighborhood rallies, and my dad would let me go. They'd have
bands and, oh, that's for mayor candidates, and alderman candidates too, they would all be
there. And I'd always go and I'd get a big kick out of it.
And I'd look in the paper and I'd see where this fellow filed for precinct committeeman and
this fellow filed for alderman and this fellow was going to run for mayor and this guy was
going to run for the General Assembly. And of course the presidential elections - T didn't
aspire to be president but - 1 recall that I'd always read those and I'd go to those rallies.
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 (EXTRACT)
Q: What ahout the home itself - was your mother a good cook?
A: Oh excellent, a German cook. She was German Protestant, as I always say. And 1
always tell people that when I went up to the old Cathedral High School they were such
snobbish Catholics I'd have to take a suit of armor because they wouldn't like me to use
their indoor plumbing, because I had a Protestant for a mother.
Q: Oh I see. (laughter)
A: Of course that's exaggerated. (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir.
A: But, oh, excellent cook, excellent cook. My mother - she'd hake pies and, of course we
- as 1 said, my dad was out of work for a numbcr of years and we took in roomers and
boarders and the hoarders would, naturally, board. They'd get room and board. Of course
they had to pay for it. She'd cook for them. She was an excellent cook. And . . .

Q: Were these family meals that she'd serve them?
A: Yes, a regular family meal, yes, a regular family meal. We'd all eat together. And it
wasn't like you see on the television where there's ten or twelve. There was - I had an
older sister and a younger brother and there was my mother and father. There was five
of us and there was never - maybe just two or three at the most that were at a meal. Now
maybe at breakfast time they took breakfast, but always the evening meal.
I mentioned that my mother came from Edwardsville - some of her sister's children became
druggists and a couple of them bought - a Schwartz and a Runge. There were six of
them. Not all of them stayed. But they bought the old Powell Drugstore in Alton, the old
Delegate Drugstore, one of the two. It may have been the same name, a different name
for the same place. And a number of those fellows either roomed or boarded at our house,
not for extensive periods. I don't mean for years, maybe for a year or eighteen months.
There might have been a fellow by the name of McGee who had a room at our house for
a number of years, just a room. Just a room. That was after my father died and I think
he could still be alive but his son is down in Texas. He may still be. I don't know. But
he stayed there maybe three or four years. He stayed there when I was in politics, I think,
when I first got precinct committeeman or alderman, but I don't remember how he voted.
It was an old duplex house. It had six rooms and we had a bath upstairs and a stool down
in the basement. And I done most of my work down in the basement.
Q: What type of work? Homework you mean, and that sort of thing?
A: Yes. We had an old coal-fired furnace. We had her put on a stoker after my dad died,
and we were making more money from our mother.
But my mother, she's a good cook. She neighbored. People neighbored more then I guess
than they do now I suppose. They were closer together. Those lots on Washington Avenue
were about seventy-five feet deep and about fifty foot wide and by the time that you get
a double house on those there, you don't have a lot of room. You don't have a lot of
yard. You had some. But they neighbored. And they hung out their clothes. She used
to race the neighbor to see who could get their clothes out first, I recall that. (chuckles)
Like I said, she had seven sisters and one brother. Some of the sisters died young, but we
always had company it looked like. And my dad's sister lived there for a while and he came
from a family of three but his other brother was a half-brother. My Grandma Kennedy
was married twice. Her first husband died and then she married my dad's dad and they
had two children, my dad and Leone. Nana stayed at our house until she married Johnny
Walsh out in Delhi and she went out there and she was a typical farm lady is what she
was, and we'd go out there every year.
But my mother belonged to clubs and neighbored with Mrs. Shane, that was our landlord,
and that Mrs. Halton, and there was a Butler family down the street. There's some of them
around here yet. And . . .
Q: What was social life like? Was it connected with the church? Your mother wasn't a
member of the Catholic church?
A: She wasn't - no she wasn't. My mother's social life was the Billikan Club.
Q: Billikan?
A: It was about eight ladies, they played parchesi. And now how that damned thing got
organized I don't know, but there's a lot of the Rillikan Club heirs around town I see on

occasion. Not a lot, but there's some. Of course the women are all dead, but the - they'd
meet every two weeks. Of course they'd come by - they couldn't - nobody had a car, they'd
come by the dinkeys we called them, the one-man streetcar. In those days of course though
they had two-man streetcars.
Our social life. My dad would take my sister and my brother and I for car rides. We'd
get on those in the summertime, those open-air streetcars you know, open on both
sides. You've probably saw pictures of them. I don't guess you're old enough to remember
them. But we'd go from Upper Alton to North Alton and back, and, hell, you could go for
a nickel, a nickel or a dime. And we'd do that.
My mother's relatives would come, and Nana would come and Uncle John, but we never had
any - I doubt if there was two cases of beer served in my mother's home in forty-five to
fifty years that she lived there. We weren't a drinking family.
And hell, I never got to - none of kids got to go in the front door. We always had to
go around to the back. She was an immaculate housekeeper and we'd get in the front door
when? Maybe Christmas time, to even go in the frontroorn. We spent our time in the
kitchen or we had a little room down in the basement. She was, as I said, an immaculate
housekeeper. And we didn't frequent the frontroorn. Of course after my father died, Homer
and I - my sister was married - Homer and I were at home and we used the front door
then naturally as we were getting older and grownup.
My brother is in Springfield. 1 don't know whether you know him. He and his wife both
work for the Calvary Cemetery.
Q: No.
A: They live on Second Street. He used to be president of the bank in Edwardsville, but
then again it changed hands and he lost out. Of course that's been a number of years ago
but . . .
Q: Now his name is Homer . . .
A: Homer, J. Homer Kennedy.
Q: J. Homer.
A: My sister's name was Margaret. She married Jim Bennett. Jim's still alive but Mamie,
as we nicknamed her, she died, oh, three years ago next month, in 1979, the twentieth of
October 1979.
Q: Now Homer was older than you, was he?
A: No. He's younger. My sister was the oldest. Margaret was born in 1906. I was horn
in 1908 and Homer was born in either 1918 or 1919. No, he was born in 1917. I believe
he was born in 1917. He'll be sixty-six in January.
Q: What about education in music? Were you interested much in that then?
A: No. I was interested in education. I read a lot. But no, I never took any vocal lessons
or any music lessons. My brother took music lessons and Margaret may have taken singing
lessons. No, I never - I worked, 1 played ball, and a little basketball and a little football,
but no, I never took any music lessons. I wasn't the, as I said, the valedirtorian. I wasn't
a poor student, but I was just a - I read a lot. As I said I sold papers, and anything pertaining
to world events fascinated me.

I was awful fascinated by politics. I don't know, I guess it was just - it fascinates some
people more than others, but I was fascinated by it. I'd get a - and I'm no great orator. I
was a good campaigner. If I made up my mind to campaign, I could campaign. I liked
it. And I enjoyed being in the assembly. I thought twenty years was enough. But I
enjoyed that.
Q: What about the Hughes-Wilson contest back in the teens? Do you remember anything
about that or were you still a little young to . . .
A: Well I was - wasn't eight until the following December. I can't recall reading in the
paper about Hughes going to bed thinking that he was elected and woke up beaten, you
know. Of course we all knew Woodrow Wilson. You read about him. He was our wartime
president after 1916. I remember the Armistice. I remember going downtown for - that
would be 1918, so I'd only be ten the following December. I remember going downtown for
that. We lived on Washington Avenue in that duplex house. There was a Lowell family
that lived on the other side. And they had a car. We went down with them to the parade.
I liked to go downtown and watch the parades. I remember that as a schoolboy. Even at
Horace Mann, they had the Decoration Day parade in Upper Alton. I remember that, they
still have it. The school kids would march. When I went to Horace Mann I marched in
that. It seemed like the second, third and fourth graders would march in that, carry their
little flags you know. And we'd go out to the Upper Alton Cemetery and they'd have services
and then they'd have a speaker and then they'd play taps. There's some old Civil War soldiers
are buried out there. It was just a Decoration Day. The Upper Alton Cemetery,
that's still there, it's a beautiful place.
Q: What about plays or dramatics of any sort?
A: Well I was in a few plays at school.
Q: Did you have any leads in any of them?
A: Oh 1 was always a lesser - in the chorus line you might say - not necessarily the chorus
line, but school plays, never no heavy plays or - my brother belonged to the Little Theater
but I didn't. He was, I guess, the actor. I go to Little Theater plays. We go to plays down
in St. Louis but I never - just school plays is all. I couldn't recall just what they were
about. At St. Patrick's they might have had a religious tinge to them I suppose. And some
Uncle Tom plays I suppose, and plays like that. St. Patrick's had a number of black students
in it, and we all got along fine. But no plays or no heavy - oh, we'd debate, I belonged
to a debating society.
Q: Oh you did?
A: In the high school. Just - it was no professional debating society, it was just a school
discussion. I mean we never debated Alton High or Wood River High or any other parochial
schools, we never done that at that time, at least I didn't do it. Now they might have done
it. I doubt if they had done it when I was there. They do it now. But we never appeared
at any organized debating discussions or . . .
Q: Did you enjoy debate?
A: Yea, yes. I used to argue a lot when I was a kid. I guess all kids do. But I enjoyed
it. It seemed like I'd always end up taking the opposite side I guess. I don't know what
made me do that because my mother and dad weren't too argumentative, but I suppose that
was a trait that I must have acquired somewhere from either my Irish ancestors or my
German ancestry.

I used to like to hear good talkers. Well this goes up to my first time in - one of the finest
speeches that I ever heard was my first session in Springfield. A Democrat from Springfield,
and that was in the two-and-one system, his name was Sullivan. He made a tremendous
speech. I thought he was going to die on the floor, because they had to bring him
water. There was a T. P. Sullivan, but that wasn't him. There was a T. P. Sullivan who
ran the newspaper, I believe the one that was an Outlander newspaper, I think, up there,
and he was that. But this guy was a terrific talker.
At school debating I debated some and argued a lot. And worked a lot - I - I worked. I
had to work. Even at Horace Mann I carried coal. I remember they paid me two dollars
a week and my mother made me take a half a dollar back, she thought it was too much
money, I remember that. (chuckles)
Q: I'll be darned, well! What did they say when you came back with the fifty cents?
A: Well they took it. (chuckles)
Q: Oh they did?
A: It wasn't anything I don't recall that. I remember that incident but what they said
I don't - they didn't - they just laughed I guess.
Q: Well I'll be darned.
A: Rut I remember that incident and it wasn't too far from home. But it seems like when
you asked that I believe that they took it and they gave me the - what they decided when
I carried - I got a dollar and a half a week, and what they decided was when I had to
carry coal the week in the winter when I carried coal, I got the fifty cents. I believe that's
the ultimate of that. That's the first time I've thought of that in a long time. Your questions
are good and they bring back memories and I figured that's what they'd be.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 (CONTINUED)
My parents both came from Edwardsville and - we used to go there a lot, by the way. Of
course that was the county seat you know. The courthouse, that always offered a certain
fascination. We went by interurban. We got on the interurban at Alton, that was the old
Terminal, and went down to what they called Mitchell, and then we'd transfer to the
Edwardsville. I guess it was coming back from Springfield, I think it used to go up to Peoria
I believe, at one time. And we'd always go that way. My parents didn't have a car.
Q: You say you visited Ireland and spent a couple, three weeks over there looking into your
family background. Did you find much about the family then?
A: Well not a lot, no. I found that my - well, I did find that my paternal grandmother
was Mary Purcell and - now this - only the next part's only by legend, that she was related
to some of the Purcells. Purcell is a big common name in Ireland. There was a Father
Purcell, I believe, in that outfit. But there were some Purcells killed in the Easter Kevolution.
Easter Rebellion, 1 think, is the proper word. And that's supposed to be some of her
relatives.
Now I've never - well I never bothered to prove it, but my grandfather came from Roscommon
County, and 1 did find some of his - not any of his living relatives. I guess I could
have, but I found some records of Bill Kennedy which was his father, which I guess would
be my great-grandfather.
I had never been to Germany. I've only got to Aachen in the war, but I - you wasn't looking
up any of your relatives at that time.

Q: Yes sir. (chuckles) What part of Germany did your mother's folks come from, do you
know?
A: You know, I don't know that but I'll tell you what I recall. I tried to find it out, look
it up in some of my records the other day, but Horace Calvo, who served some with me,
his wife is a - he met her over in Germany, and she was from that same area, because
one time I got to talking to her and I said, "My grandmother and grandfather came from
Ruett. She said that's where she had come from. Now whatever part that was, I wouldn't
know.
My grandfather's name was Adam Herb Herwick. And my grandmother's name was - she
was Louise Wamsconse, however you spell that, I don't know. When we were younger some
of the kids used to say that. And she lived the longest, she's the only one I knew, Grandma
Herwick. They said that was a German Jew. I remember she talked German. She lived
to be a ripe old age, but she had, as I said, eight girls and one boy, and they're all gone
now. I think the last one - well the last one died about two years ago up in Decatur.
Q: And she lived in Edwardsville?
A: Yes. They lived in Edwardsville. They all lived in Edwardsville. As I said my mother
and father were born in Edwardsville, and their parents, as far as I can ascertain. All four
of my grandparent's children landed in New Orleans, I know three of them did, and I just
figured Grandma Herwick, whom I'm referring to, must have landed there, and they worked
their way up to Edwardsville. Why they stopped in Edwardsville I don't know.
Q: Do you remember visiting with her in Edwardsville?
A: Oh yes yes.
Q: What was a visit like, going to Grandma's place?
A: Oh - quite (chuckles) . . . she'd make coffee cakes and she'd talk German and was
down in lower town and scolded us as usual and - oh, I remember going to Grandma's
a lot. The most memories of my childhood though are really of my dad's sister, Nana we
called her. She lived with us on Washington Avenue. She was - her name was Leone
Kennedy, and she married a John P. Walsh, a farmer, that lived out in Delhi and they were
married in 1913 or 1914, but she died within fourteen years. We used to go out there every
summer. She died in 1927, right after I got out of high school. I went to work for Shell,
I graduated in June and went to work for Shell in July, and she died in August. I remember
those particular things.
We had visited out to Delhi. I remember my - they'd get off the C & A [Chicago and Alton
Railroad] train - well I'm going to talk about the train too - and get off the C & A train,
and if they couldn't meet you - they knew you were coming - you'd just walk, maybe a
mile or mile and a half up to where they lived, it was up from Delhi.
I went for four and a half years of Horace Mann school, but we were Catholics and I guess
- well when I was ten or eleven years old, I went to St. Patrick's School then. It's still
there, Fifth and Central in Alton. I spent my last four years there, I think fifth, sixth,
seventh and eighth.
Q: What do you recall about going to Horace Mann School, the grade school?
A: Well I'll tell you what I recall about that. That was my first school and I recall meeting
a fellow - of course I was six years old. T think I started - in that time they had midterms
you know in the Alton schools. I just went to school in January. I was six years old in
December of 1914, I guess. I was born in 1908. That figures. (chuckles) And I went to

school the following January at Horace Mann, and I remember the first kid I met was a
boy by the name of Perry Edsell. And I knew him all of my life. He went to - of course
he went to public schools, and when I left I went through the parochial school system. Rut
we both went to work at Shell. And Perry might have been a chemist. I'm not quite sure
if he could have gone to Shurtleff College and studied chemistry at night school, hut he
worked in an experimental laboratory, and they picked four fellows to go to work in Texas
in 1931 for Shell for about three months, and Edsell and T were two of them.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2
A: I recall that. And I knew his family, I guess some of his children are still alive. I never
see them. I wouldn't know them if I saw them. But we went to work in Texas, 1 recall
that.
Q: Horace Mann, what about the teachers there? Do you recall any particular teachers
from that time?
A: Why yes I recall a teacher. I think that a Mr. Lowery was the principal. Rut my classroom
teacher at that time, I'm sure, was a Mrs. Sawyer. And she had a family up in Upper
Alton and her son-in-law, later on, worked at Shell. You'd have classroom discussions, even
then you know, when you were children. I remember Mr. Lowery well. He was supposed
to be a mean man, but he never was mean to me. (chuckles)
Q: Well!
A: And of course that's kids checking out their principal you know. You don't know that
he's mean or not. But my memory of Horace Mann isn't too great. Oh I remember there
was a girl of the Everline family and she was a, I guess, a class sweetheart, she always
got a lot of valentines from the boys in her class. Course now it was either the first, second,
third, or fourth grade, so you can imagine how old we were. But she died.
Q: Oh?
A: Real young. And I can remember as a class we went to her wake. I remember that
- that was a - of course that was an unusual thing. I don't know, I believe that family
might be all gone from Upper Alton. Whether that house still stands or not, this probably
was in the center of the business district at that - of the now business district at that
time. It was in the center of the business district.
Q: Do you remember anything about the courses thew at the Horace Mann, the courses that
you took?
A: Oh I guess the basic courses were reading, writing and arithmetic, and geography and
history. I always liked history, and I liked geography. And I was a very average
student. I never flunked, but I wasn't a valedictorian or the class president or the class
head or anything like that, but . . .
Q: Was Horace Mann a public school?
A: Yes. It still stands up at - oh, at Clausen and Seminary. Well it was the chief -
it was the big public school in the Alton school district, the upper Alton people, ~vcrybody
went there. I don't recall whether it was integrated or not. They had another school up
at the end of Washington Avenue which was the jumping off part before the annexation
and what they called Whittier Township maybe or Godfrey Township. There was a Negro
school up there, but I think white students went to that. We could have - I don't remember

that much about it, about the makeup of it. I'm sure that there were Negro school students
at Horace Mann. When I went to St. Patrick's obviously there were. But there weren't
too many, but there were some. Oh, there's not too many, but there were some.
And I can recall going to St. Patrick's. Oh, there's not too many of those fellows around,
or girls either one. But I used to walk to school and I'd walk down Washington Avenue
and cut through the city cemetery and go by the Lovejoy Monument. I used to think that
was a thrill. This Lovejoy was a - he was killed in Alton, wasn't he?
Q: Yes as I understand it he was.
A: I think so, and he was - and then he was in his thirties when he was killed, I believe,
not very old.
Q: Not very old I know.
A: He wasn't very old at all. And that was the freedom of the press. And all of those things
impressed me.
Q: What teachers do you recall from . .
A: Well I recall the Sister Eulalia. And I guess at that time she must have taught us all
the classes I suppose. She was a McGuinnes, she was a girl from Alton. And Sister
Eulalia, I think she - it wasn't that big. I know that we had outdoor plumbing, I remember
that.
Q: Well. (laughter)
A: But that would be - and I can recall when - Pope Benedict died I think, now that would
be when I was about ten years old I would think, or maybe twelve, but they came in and
wrote it on the board that Pope Benedict had died. I'm not sure of that date, but if in
your research, if someone up there would look through, I'm sure that he died - I know
he died when I was in St. Patrick's School.
And I met lifelong friends there I guess. There's the Maguire's and Levvick's and O'Toolels
and a lot of other Irish names. And there was Italian people, there was some Mexican
people in there, in the class. Oh, there was - a Purviss girl was in my class. I just saw
her the other day. And there was a Tom Kenney in my class and his brother-in-law is a
circuit judge now and, well, Joe J. Barr, was Tom Kenney's brother-in-law. There was some
O'Neal's in the class and Father Kehoe was our pastor and there was a Father Daley that
was assistant pastor and he'd rap us on the butt if we didn't behave.
Of course that's right across from St. Joe's Hospital. Of course St. Joe's Hospital's expanded
and rebuilt since then, but I recall that. I never had to - Doctor Schaff, I remember
him. I got circumcised in his office.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: Down on Broadway. And some of his family later went on to medical school, but I don't
- his house still stands up in what we call the Middle Town Area now, but where that
family is, I don't have any idea.
Q: What about sports in school there?
A: Well I wasn't much of an athlete. I played ball and football and tag ball and all of that,
but I never went out - I went out for basketball one year in high school but it wasn't -
we didn't have athletics in the Catholic schools at that time. The Old Cathedral had a

football team. I didn't play football, but they had a makeshift basketball team and I played
a little of that. Some of my friends though, that I had met - Bill Nickollett, who I knew
as a boy, he went on to star at the Shurtleff Collegc as a Little Nine Team - he was a
good hasketball player and he's still alive. Oh I played sandlot ball and we played softball
and things of that nature but I worked a lot.
Well like all kids, I guess, fifty years ago, sixty years ago when you were growing up you
started to read the paper and 1 was a paper carrier's helper. My memory is somewhat faint
on that but that was the year that - I know that was the year of the Hughes and Wilson
election and a friend by the name of Mosslander, he must have been Republican because
he was interested in Hughes' election, they were trying to sell their home at the same time,
and I was as I said a paperboy's helper and I left them an extra paper.
There were two papers in Alton at that time, at least two, the Telegraph and the Alton
Daily Times, and I was a helper on the Telegraph I think, and they took the Times. That's
what it was. And I left them their Telegraph and an item in there, I think, sold their house
or something like that or some political news, not that selling their house is political news,
but something like that was. And I remember them giving me an overcoat. And as time
wore on, growing up, I carried papers. I think I got fifty cents a week.
And I recall that, speaking of trains, that when I was still in high school I worked at a
drugstore, Delegates, and they sold out to Nitchee's - we'd get off at, oh, 9:30 or 10:OO
o'clock. I'd just work the nights. I'd go down and sell the Globe Democrat, we'd call it
the 10:OO o'clock Globe. It would come in on the interurban and we'd sell it on the 10:lO
train, the Red Train. We'd go through and sell it to people who were going to Chicago you
know, I guess businessmen and they'd have - be in their berths already, and you'd go
through and you could make yourself some money. I always had a knack of saving my
money. I don't know - I don't say that vainly, I could, if I - I always had a little Christmas
club or something so I'd have something to put back.
In the wintertime, there was a Bennekey, or Benniss Store, about two blocks from where
we lived, up Washington Avenue. And I'd get up and, before I went to school, carry in the
coal and start their fire, I recall that.
Q: At the store?
A: At the store, yes. The store building is still standing, but I think it's been made into
a little one-room apartment for some senior citizens who want to finish out their days
there. But it's still there. I don't go up to that area much anymore, for no particular
reason, it's just not - I used to go by there when I'd ride the train. I rode the train to
Springfield a lot.
Q: What about Old Cathedral, the high school years?
A: Well I went to the Old Cathedral - well I graduated June 1927, so I must have started
there in I guess September of 1923 that was - well I - here's a little incident. I started
there in September of 1923, and I thought I wanted to be a priest.
Q: Oh?
A: And I went about a week. My dad said, "Well, we'll send you to Quincy College if you
want to be a priest." So I maybe quit school like on a Thursday night and when the time
came to go to Quincy, why, I didn't stay over there more than the Thursday or Friday or
Saturday next and I was out of school and by Friday I went hack to school
hcre. (chuckles) That ended my pricstly ambition.
Well I remember it. It wasn't a big class. Of course I think our graduation class amounted
to twenty-seven, so maybe as you went along - it might have been thirty-five that started

out and there was the number of my fellow students at St. Patrick's. The Old Cathedral
High School was the only Catholic high school in town. St. Mary's may have had a commercial
class at that time. I don't recall whether they did or they didn't. But they did at one
time - whether, when I went to school, high school, I don't know whether it was still in
business or not.
Well, as I said, I'd go to school. I'd walk to school most of the time. Of course they had
the dinkeys, they had the streetcars yet, we called them the dinkeys. The one-man streetcars
would go by our house and finally get up to North Alton after a few switches and things
like that. We didn't have to change cars but you didn't get there in fifteen minutes. You
might have gotten there in an hour. But we'd leave early and - oh, I have walked it.
When I was in school, I carried papers and the last couple of years I went to work at the
Nitschee Drug Store. I wouldn't go home from school, I'd go right to work there and get
home later in the evening. The school years were pretty much the same as any high school
years I guess, in the small school.
Q: What about the instructors there? Do you remember anything in particular?
A: Well, yes. I remember Father Smith. They used to call him Hooks, I don't know
whether you ought to say that or not. And there was a Mother Gertrude and a Mother
Angela and a Mother Celeste and - Mother Gertrude Angela, and Mother Celeste, and there
was a Mother - that Sister Eulalia, who had been at St. Patrick's, she was up there, by
the name of Mother Eulalia, and sometime in my session. You took all of your classes in
one room. You'd have the same teachers. There wasn't that many students. It was just
above the grade school down there.
When I went to school I started at Old Cathedral High School. I never had any plans to
go to Marquette High School and after a couple of years, why, Marquette High School
opened, but the kids that were either juniors or seniors didn't go there. We were the last
class out of the Cathedral High School. So their first class came out in 1928. But they
went a full four years, see, they didn't come from Cathedral.
But I'd go downtown and go by the city hall, the old city hall, and then later on the new
city hall. And I'd go to council meetings. I'd go to rallies down in the Alton commons,
as they'd call it.
Q: You went to council meetings during high school?
A: I went to council - yes, I'd go down, not all the time, but I'd - I went to city council
meetings occasionally. Maybe I didn't go to twenty-five or thirty, but I guess I could have
gone to a dozen. And just listen in. And the old city hall had a fairly decent chamber
at that time. I think it's made into offices. They had an auditorium, and they had a council
room. And I went to council meetings and I went to, oh, I can remember the mayoralty
races and I met a guy by the name of Crawford who ran for mayor several different times
and finally got elected about the seventh time out but, at that time, I think maybe the terms
were just two-year at that time. All of them were one year and two year, the city treasurer
- well there was a man by the name of Morris Kennedy who has been city clerk for a long
time. No relation of mine, no relation of ours, but he was a clerk a long long time. And
then later on followed by a man by the name of Hampfield.
But I always went to any parliamentary discussion I could go to. They'd have - now this
would be in my high school years, it wouldn't be in grade school - they'd have debates
and discussions at Shurtleff College. And that was in Upper Alton and I'd go to those. Not
every night, or not every week, but I would go to as many as I could.
Q: Was there anyone in high school that was encouraging you to attend this type of activity?

A: No. I don't recall that - I was asked that question before. I guess it just came from
natural curiosity I suppose because, well, I could read and write and I'd read the paper.
I never had any political science classes. I went to a political science class at - down at
the downtown YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association] was an instructor who later
became a chemist out at Shell. His name was Berry. IIe was a teacher. And he seemed
to me - of course he was an adult man, and I was still in my teens - to have a working
knowledge of politics. He never dealt with the partisan issue of it. Of course you're going
to have to get into partisan politics if you're going anyplace. So he just dealt with the workings
of government, the three branches, the executive and the judiciary and the
legislative. That was an interesting year of study.
1 had it at night, at the YMCA, maybe five nights in two weeks, like it might be Monday,
Wednesday and Friday and then Tuesday and Thursday, like that. It lasted maybe oh, from
the first of November to the first of April. That's the only time they had it. They didn't
have it anymore. But this fellow was a good instructor.
Q: How did that course differ from the civics that you received in high school? Did you
take the civics course?
A: Well, you know, I don't remember much about civics. Maybe that's what we call pretty
much history now.
I'm an older man than you, and the curriculum at the Old Cathedral High School at that
time they had to have a foreign language, and I wasn't very good at foreign languages. I'm
not very good at English quite frankly I know, but if we called it civics that one word don't
ring a bell with me, or I call it history.
That course in high school dealt more with the history of America, of the Declaration of
Independence and the Civil War and the growing of America. As you get to the basic of
what I was going to be in, such as politics or government, it dealt with it of course, but
it didn't deal with it - parliamentary or judiciary or legislative or executive, it didn't deal
in that particular field that long. If it did, I can't recall it.
Q: Was Mr. Berry's course more practical?
A: I would say so, yes. That's a good word, yes.
Q: Had he had experience?
A: Well you know I don't know that. I've often thought about that. I was trying to think
about it the other day, I tried to think of somebody who was in it, but there wasn't too
many. And I think that he didn't have any practical knowledge unless it came from conversation
with - maybe in his family. I don't ever recall him being in ofice. I don't know
that he was. I don't know that he wasn't.
As I said he went out to Shell. Rut he didn't stay at that refinery long. He was
transferred. Shell, at that time, was just starting to grow and they sent him - he was
a chemical engineer by profession and trade and knowledge. He might have been a political
science instructor by - maybe that's what he wished he'd have been, a politician. He said
- how would you ever define it? (chuckles) But he had a good knowledge oC it.
But he left town. He and his family left town. They were transferred. Hc took another
job with another refinery or another industrial firm, but he didn't stay long in town. He
wasn't a native of Alton as far as I know.
Q: Do you recall any rules or axioms that he proposed that were important in being a
politician'!

A: Well. Yes, I always remember one thing that he said. He said, "The idea is to win." 1
mean when you're running for office. Of course that didn't mean that you were going to
buy it or steal it. But he had left this impression with me that if you were going to run
for office, don't stay home, I guess. I don't know how to say that. I mean get out and
work. I mean I can recall, as my career at Shell - the years rolled on, I was running and
getting elected and running for alderman and running for state representative and running
for precinct committeeman and - and different fellows were taking out petitions for school
boards and county boards and city councils and township offices. But not all of them
worked. They'd just take their name out and put it on the ballot and go home. Of course
I suppose that's a nationwide or worldwide way some people react - of how some of them
would stand down on the corners you know - and not think that, "Because I saw Joe Blow
down there, he was running for alderman or committeeman or city treasurer, I'm going to
vote for him."
But Berry always left the impression with me that the practical end of politics was hard
work, that's all, to get elected. And of course once you get elected you have to do the job
and keep on your feet. I know after I got back in - it will be twenty years ago right now,
it was in 1962, that I'd have to take a leave of absence from Shell to go to the General
- they weren't in annual sessions yet then. I only stayed at Shell for five more years, but
I left in 1967, but I didn't go.
And I got elected in 1962. Of course the session didn't start until 1963 but I went out in
my district every day, my legislative district, just to see people, just to visit or to drop in
different - the city hall's office maybe, the mayor's office, or call up different aldermen, maybe
have lunch with them, or different committeemen who had bigger precincts and other
precincts. My legislative experience taught me that.
SESSION 2, TAPE 3, SIDE 1
A: With reference to my days at Horace Mann School, I called up somebody last night, and
there are two teachers that I didn't mention. I mentioned, I think, a Mrs. Sawyer.
Q: Yes.
A: There was also a Mrs. Dawson and a Miss Nicolet. And when I was a student there,
the old Alton Senior High School for years was on Langdon Street. But they had a two-year
high school at Horace Mann. I had forgotten about that. Of course that's just a point of
information. And I failed to mention a Mother Mildred, who was my teacher both in grade
school and then she went up there to teach at the Cathedral High School too, the Old Cathedral.
Q: There were two teachers then - what was the other - Eulalia . . .
A: Sister Eulalia, Mother Eulalia, and then there was a Mother Gertrude, and a Mother Mildred
and a Mother Celeste. I may not have mentioned Mother Celeste, but Eulalia, and
Mother Mildred and Mother Gertrude, and Mother Cotille - I know I didn't mention her. I
just happened to think of her, Cotille. And I checked on how the glassblowers learned their
trade.
Q: Oh? Well . . .
A: Judge Barr, he's a friend of mine, his father's still alive, he's about ninety-five. He was
a glassblower and he said that they took samples, they were sample boys, the apprentices
were sample boys, and they learned their trade from the senior glassblowers.

Q: Kind of on-the-job training then?
A: On-the-job training, yes, that's what I was trying to think, on-the-job training. And you
mentioned some activities that - of my childhood - well, I always worked. I had a morning
paper route, and I fed the coal in the stove at the grocery store, and I had an evening
paper route, and - but, Alton was a member of the Three-I League, Alton Rlues - a
member of the Three-I League?
Q: Oh?
A: And my dad was a twenty-five dollar-a-year stockholder in it, or a twenty-five dollar-ayear
season ticket. They always said that if they had two hundred fans like Joe Kennedy
that they could make it go. But it was right down the hill from us on Washington Avenue,
and Old Sports and Sporgue got the shopping center now. But the shopping center is not
as much as it's gone under. There's some stores there, but not no big supermarkets like
there used to be.
My dad - it was night ball, and he worked the early shift and he'd go to the games a lot,
and I'd go with him. And one other thing, we talked about the activity, we'd go down every
year I guess, all families that could afford it would take the J. S. Steamer, or the St. Paul
Steamer, and on Decoration Day make a roundtrip to J. B.
Q: Jefferson Barracks?
A: Jefferson Barracks. You'd go downstream. And that was really an all-day event
because, hell, that's - I guess must be sixty miles a roundtrip I would think.
Q: Oh yes, I would imagine.
A: Every bit. And hell, I'd go down to J. B. occasionally as a GI [soldier] and charge it
107 miles roundtrip from here by automobile. I know that it's at least sixty by river.
Q: What did you do down there on Decoration Day?
A: Well we toured the J. B., toured the barracks. See, we were there about maybe an hour
and a half or two hours. We had a layover there right down at the foot of the - wherc
the old hospital is there. It's modernized now some of course but you can still see the
roadway. I go to a retreat down at the White House, a retreat every year. I'm going next
month, and this is right near the area. It's on the Mississippi River, right on the river,
and J. B. is about two and a half miles below it, and you go the same way to the White
House as you go to the J. B., the same road. Whatever way you go, they both take you
to the same place.
Q: A White House retreat you say? Is that a Catholic retreat.
A: Yes. That's a - well, anybody can go. It's a Jesuit retreat league. I go to that every
year. I generally go in November. I'm going to - scheduled to go the - well the Monday
after the election, November the eighth.
Q: Yes.
A: T have gone in the spring. But other things about my boyhood that
Q: Could I ask, on these trips to Jefferson Rarracks, now, you went down and got on a steamship?
A: Yes on a steamer.

Q: Was it a paddle wheeler or what type?
A: Well, it's a paddle wheel, yes. The Old Saint Paul, the J. S., hell, they've ran in recent
years out of St. Louis. Of course the newest one is the Admiral, I mean for us in this
area. But they had them on the Illinois, and had them on the Sangamon, not those but
they had those paddle wheels. They had the paddle wheel in the back. And they were
five-deckers. Now they weren't - they weren't - didn't have any staterooms on them. Oh
I guess the crew had quarters and the ship's captain had quarters, and I suppose there were
some staterooms for the Strecktas family, they owned the steamers, and things like
that. But it was just a pleasure trip . . .
Q: Excursion tour . . .
A: Yes. And of course they went out a lot at night. When you got older, they had the
moonlight - they had it for dancing. You'd have moonlight excursions. That's when you
were in high school or grownup, out of high school. Anybody could go on them.
Q: Did you go very often on that type of .
A: Well I would say that they would have, in the summertime, spring, summer - I don't
think they ever went too much in the fall, say May through Labor Day, say Decoration Day
through Labor Day, beside the all-day excursion, they would have, I would say, a half a dozen
moonlight trips. That's what they were called, moonlight excursions. They would just go
up maybe, or down maybe, a mile or two and then park and you'd dance. You know, they'd
have a band on it. And you'd take your date. But I think they had those in Peoria. I'm
sure they had it in Peoria, Illinois. I think they had one on the Sangamon. Didn't Stratton
have a boat, didn't the state have a boat at one time? Stratton - I thought they did have.
Q: I don't know. H-m-m, I hadn't heard of that.
A: I've given you the - well, the - my dad was a great baseball fan and . . .
Q: Were the Blues . . .
A: In the Three-I, they were a good baseball team.
Q: Was that a field team for the Cardinals or someone?
A: No it never was a farm club. There was rumors - at least 1 didn't know that they
were. It may have been now, but my memory doesn't recall that. I don't know whether
Springfield's in the Three-I League. I know Rock Island was in it, Decatur, and Peoria of
course, and well the major cities of Illinois. I don't imagine the Three-I League franchise
lasted much longer than two or three years here.
But my brother-in-law was a semipro baseball player and a number of fellows from here
- we didn't recall, I think the Lenhardts came from here. He was a scout for the
Browns. He played for the St. Louis Browns for a while. And that would be some time
back, but Alton always fielded good haseball teams. The Alton Blues, before and after their
tenure in the Three-I League, always played Sunday ball. And of course you had to pay
admission at Sports and Sporgue, and my dad and I would go to that a lot.
Q: Did you ever get across the see the Browns?
A: Yes, well I was going to get to that. We used to - oh 1 imagine that we'd go down
on the interurban and see the Browns and the Cardinals. Course at one time, when I was
a kid - now the Cardinals won their first pennant in 1926. But prior to that, the Browns
were a favorite team in St. Louis, the St. Louis Browns. And my dad was a Cardinal fan,

and oh, we'd - I recall going to St. Louis. He'd take mom and I and my sister and brother
down to - we'd see a game and we'd - the ballpark was at Grand and. . . . Of course
you took the streetcar out. You went down on the streetcar. We didn't have a car. My
parents never owned a car. And you'd go on the streetcar out there and then you'd come
back, and there was no night ball.
We'd always eat down at the Nuggent's and that was a forerunner, I guess, of Stix, Raer
and Fuller. And the building's right down there yet at Sixth and Washington. I think it
might be Fourth and Washington where Nuggents was, but I recall that one time my dad
didn't have a coat, and they furnished him a coat. (chuckles)
Q: Oh really? Well, I'll be darned.
A: They wouldn't turn him away, but they just furnished him a little black blazer like -
a thin one you know - like maybe these people wear when they work, in pink . . . or something
like that.
Q: Well I'll be darned. (chuckles)
A: It was black, but they furnished him a coat. My dad, when he was in his career at the
glassworks and made some good money, he took care of his family when he had it. And
he bought us things.
Q: Could you kind of characterize what the industry was in Alton in your youth back in
the teens and 1920's.
A: Industry?
Q: Yes. What type of
A: Well of course there was - I'm going to go down to Wood River and Hartford in Roxanna
now. Standard Oil Refinery was a big refinery when I was a youth. Of course Shell came
in here right after World War I, and they prospered. Of course the Owens-Illinois Glass
was the chief employer. Or one of the chiefs. Of course the old one - the old Western
Cartridge, well, that was probably the biggest employer and it might still be right
now. They used to run the Plug. They called it the Plug. The Terminal, the Big Four,
they ran a train out of Alton and they'd get on down there to - I think Broadway and
Woods or down at the old C & A depot, which isn't there now, in what they call River Front
Park now, and they'd run a plug. And it - oh, it would have five or six coaches and the
men that worked there, and of course some women too, rode the Plug, that's what they
rode. Now its hours - it made a run down in the morning and it made a run back at
night. Now whether it came back in between the day, I wouldn't know that.
Of course there was Beall Tool Company and the Duncan Foundry which closed. Rut the
glassworks - and Western Cartridge it was called then, it wasn't called Owen Company
at that time. It was called the Western Cartridge. And one of the Owens just died. The
Owens boys' dad, he died I think the first year I went to the assembly, I believe, and I left
in 1946 or 1947. I believe he died about then, because I remember there was a resolution
that was introduced that had the fellows from Madison County - they put their name on
them. Someone else introduced it, some friend of the family. But I think Harris and I
- and Orville Hodge may have introduced that, I don't know, but I was on that
resolution. But one of his boys just died here in the past thirty days, Donald, wasn't it?
Q: Yes.
A: Rut I don't know this, but I understand that - 1 have no proof of this - the father
of the Owens boys went through Western Cartridge at the turn of the century. Now it's

een that far back, in that era, maybe 1904, and 1905, and 1906, in there, and sold stock
for that company to the employees.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: Of course they had to buy it but real real cheap.
Now how the glassworks was organized I don't know, but I know this: the glassworks had
an office in St. Louis and their executives would go down on a boat. Now there must have
been, besides those steamers, daily transportation between Alton and St. Louis. In those
days. Of course there was train service and interurban service, but I guess for the people
that could travel leisurely, that could get on a packetboat and go down to - there always
was a lot of river traffic, not so much barge traffic, they hadn't thought the barges yet. But
the river traffic, oh, there was always a lot of river traffic.
By the way, when I - of course this is closer back to the 1930's again, I told you that 1
went to work for Shell in 1927 - I worked in what they called the light oil treating
department. We were just operating engineers. That was our official title. That was the
union we belonged to. And we handled the transportation of gasoline. And we loaded
barges, I suppose the first barges were loaded in this area. This is quite a barge center
now you know, down in the marine terminal down in Hartford on the Mississippi River. If
you go down Route 3, you'll go by and you'll see signs pointing to the barge traffic. I think
the Shell refinery and the Clark refinery, and I believe that there's another refinery comcs
in there - one of these, that one over in Robinson has a barge terminal there. They load
a lot of petroleum products, mostly gasoline I guess, but they load asphalt and barges and
there are some oil barges. I think it's one of the largest barge terminals on the Mississippi
River outside of New Orleans, that down at Hartford, or Hartford Terminal I think they
call it.
Q: Now does that traffic go north and south or .
A: It goes both ways. If you have ever noticed it, and wondered why, if you see a petroleum
barge, when it's full, it's just almost level with the water. If you see one that's sticking
up, maybe seven or eight feet, it's empty. And of course coal and steel are loaded on barges
now too. Laclede Steel's got a barge landing. Laclede Steel was here of course. I failed
to mention them, and I think that, if you've noticed, you mentioned about going to Mount
Vernon, there's always those hundred plus coal cars going through here.
Q: Yes.
A: Route 3, they're going north, or you see them deadheaded back, they're going up, I guess,
to Commonwealth and Edison or Northern Illinois Gas up there with their coal, I would
think that's where they'd be going. Maybe they're going west out to Kansas City, which
probably some of them do go that far. I imagine that Union Electric plants - there's a
couple along the Mississippi and I guess they get their coal that way. I've never paid that
much attention, but you see them going through. Hell, when I rode the train to Springfield,
you'd get to see them all the time. Because they'd be on the siding, they'd get on the siding
for a passenger train, but if they were ahead of a passenger train, you had to follow them
until they got to a siding.
Q: Well.
A: Because we were - oh, I've been delayed numerous times out at the cutoff stations -
C & A, I call it the cutoff, it's the official station - because there's a coal train ahead of
you, see? But they'd get to the siding around Carlinville or there's a couple - there's one
up around - well just south of Springfield - what are some of those towns, Waverly?

Q: Pawnee has a big mine.
A: Yes I guess so, sure. Virden, Virden, we'd go through Virden, but whether there was
a siding there I don't know, but all of those towns in my beginning of a career in Springfield,
were on the Illinois Terminal. You could go on the Illinois Terminal to Springfield, but you
had to go to Granite City to catch it, or over to - you could go out to Hamel there at -
I have done that but very seldom.
Q: I notice the Pevely is a big granary, is that?
A: Well, it's Pevely Mill, it used to be. Now, in my younger days there was a Sparks Milling
and the Standard Tilton Milling and if memory serves me correct, the present Pevely dairy,
or mill, is an outgrowth of Standard Tilton-Sparks. They were all merged you know and
I guess as they modernized their equipment and their exports and imports declined, or rose,
they merged those two mills. That's where they were. The Sparks Milling Company is the
office still sits there.
And there used to be an old prison in Alton, an old Confederate prison down there. You
mentioned Pevley Mill, why, you passed the - maybe a mile, it couldn't be - the river runs
east and west in Alton, and a mile or maybe a half a mile up the hill there, when you look
up the hill - you come up the road, if you look up there when you go by Pevely, there's
an old - it could be a parking - it's a parking lot now. That's the site of the old Confederate
prison in Alton.
But how many inmates they had there or not, I don't know. There is a well-kept Confederate
graveyard and monument out here on Rosher Street in North Alton that would be
worth your tour, sometime when you're over on this duty for the university, to look into
that because I don't think too many people know it's there. But it's well-kept. It evidently
has a caretaker. It's very accessible, but my wife and I just were riding around here, oh,
one time this summer and she wanted to find out where somebody lived and we were out
in that area and I - oh it was a school - it is taught in the Alton schools. You've got
the Lovejoy monument and they have a federal cemetery over by the Lovejoy monument,
it's a federal - hut I think it's full. I don't think they're taking any more graves.
Q: I suppose the federal government takes care of the place?
A: I think so. They have a caretaker and I suppose they take care of the Confederate too,
it's wcll-kept. Who the caretaker is, or how it's taken care of I don't know, but I don't
think many people - I doubt if it's taught in schools. We were taught that in schools, that
it was there.
Oh, and Hartford had a tannery. Hartford Tannery. A lot of girls worked there during
the war, out of high school or just before they were going to get married, from prominent
middle-class families there, well-to-do and just ordinary citizens. It was a big plant, the
tannery was, and they - well there was a seven-day operation around the clock. It's closed
now, but during the war it was - the Watkins family, he was the manager and in fact
this Levinson who just died, his wife was a Watkins, and her father was one of the big shots
in it, or one of the executives in it. I shouldn't say big shot, that sounds like a street name,
but he was an executive in it.
We have a family out here, his father was an executive in it. And I mentioned that my
mother took in roomers and boarders and when the tannery first started, and I was still
in grade or high school, my mother had several tannery executives before they could get
housed. They didn't stay that long, maybe four or five or six weeks, or something like
that. But different women had their name on that list down there to have - you know,
that's the way boarding houses are done, or rooming houses or whatever you would call it,

that wanted to take roomers or boarders for a short time. They had their names on the
books down there.
Q: Now you mentioned the tannery. At one time Alton was a big butchering area or shipping
area for hogs and cattle and that sort of thing.
A: Oh yes.
Q: Was there a stockyards here?
A: Yes, yes there was. And of course the Aldiss family - didn't he - I knew him, but
I didn't know his dad but he was the - I think he was the - he founded Forbes, them
was a Forbes coffee when I was a kid. There was no Folgers or Maxwell House or Old Judge
or Sanka or Brim, you know, at least I don't remember it. There was a Forbes coffee. Of
course there was other coffees, but I believe Forbes coffee was the big seller around there
and I believe the Aldiss family - hell, their home is still - there may be some of them
still there. Their home's still up on Twelfth Street. It's changed hands a couple of times,
but I imagine that lot or the buildings, they are seventy-five or eighty-five years old up on
Twelfth Street.
See, that's - there was an old bakery, the ABC Bakery and the Purity Bakery, and of course
as time and machinery developed, they all - well the Purity Bakery was a family-owned
bakery. The ABC Bakery was a family-owned bakery.
And the cattle shipping, oh, the Louer Packing, sure, the Louer Packing. The Louer Packing
was a big place. It's down there at Broadway and Ridge. Well the Travel Lodge Motel's
there now. But at Broadway and Ridge, there's a four-way stop there and there's a lottery
office in there where you go in and play the daily lottery game. I don't play it, I buy an
occasional lottery ticket. I never play the daily game but I see people going in there. And
it's a four-way stop, electric signals, and it's the main access to Route 3 because we don't
have the River Road Highway completed yet.
But the Louer Packing and they shipped a lot of cattle. Of course they brought a lot of
cattle in by horse and wagon too you know. They'd, oh hell, they'd - you're coming down
Route 100 I guess, from Marquette Park, they brought a lot of cattle down from up in lower
Jersey County. That way too because of Calhoun County, of course they'd have to cross the
ferry there at Calhoun and . . .
(taping interrupted for introduction of Mrs. Kennedy, then resumed)
A: Talking about river traffic, the river used - I don't know whether the winters were any
colder then or not. If they were colder than last year, they were pretty damned
cold. (chuckles) But the river would freeze over and they would talk about people walking
across the river on ice. Now we've been out on it pretty far as a kid, but never did walk
across it. I never had that kind of courage. Of course there were kids that would swim
in the river. I've swum in the river. There's always been drownings. Every year there's
drownings you know, but the river, a river town has some history to it. Like I've been in
Quincy several times in my life - oh, I've been in - I think the Mississippi starts up at
Minnesota someplace, but it always looked to me like some of these old river towns maybe
had three sides to them, the other side was the river you know.
Q: Yes.
A: They had the square you know, and your one side was the river. But the Mississippi
River had tremendous traffic, still does, which is good. And of course the Lewis and Clark
expedition - you mentioned about schools - well there's a - when you was at Horace Mann

School as a student, you always took a walk out to, near the Statehouse, well there's a monument
out there, but it's not the Lewis and Clark monument, I guess it might be the Waan
Disaster. There was a big explosion, maybe from where - I don't know if it was from Western
now or not, but down and out in that area someplace, or a train wreck or something,
where a tremendous amount of people were killed. Waan Disaster. Now where it happened
or - but that's one of the things that came up when we were in school, particularly at Horace
Mann because I think it was in the - I can't recall but I believe that one of those teachers
must have had an ancestor in it or something, because she'd talk about that all the -
we took a hike out there.
And of course when we were at St. Patrick's, why, I'd serve mass and Beltrees at that time
was a mission church. Now you come right down Beltrees, you go right by it. It's on the
- not the river side, it's on the bluff side. It's - you come right back there, down between
Elsah and you go by Chautauqua and you go by - between the Clifton Terrace and Chautauqua
is the old Beltrees Road, it goes up by - you've probably seen the sign, Lockhaven
Country Club, it's back in there. There is still a mission Catholic church there. I think
it's the same church. I think Grafton has it now, but we - we used to, there was only
three Catholic parishes in Alton when I was kid, St. Mary's, St. Patrick's and the Old
Cathedral. And when I was in grade school at St. Patrick's . . .
SESSION 2, TAPE 3, SIDE 2
A: . . . in fact for the pastor of the day, and we had a little room downstairs that we bunked
in, and they'd take two fellows out. They'd go out on a Saturday night, maybe they'd go
out on a Friday night sometimes to stay the weekend, but not often. Maybe in my four
years at St. Patrick's, I might have been out there a half a dozen times. But that church
is still there, and it's still a mission.
Q: And this was to function as altar boy you mean?
A: Yes, as altar boy. That's the altar boy. That's a good - that's a term we don't use,
but that's right. I call it servant. But now most of the services that I go to are - at 6:40
in the morning, why, adults do that but they have the altar boys at the children's mass,
and most of them are at eight o'clock or 815.
But I recall Beltrees and, although there's of course the Owens-Illinois and Western Cartridge
and Beal Tube and Duncan Foundry which just closed but it's been there for years
and years and years. The old Gas and Electric up on Bell Street. If you read the Alton
paper - of course you wouldn't - they were trying to change the name of Bell Street to
Federal - there's a federal building there - to the Federal Way, and I'm not for it, but
I'm not in Alton. I think it's silly. Bell Street's alright with me. But as a kid, the old
Gas and Electric, that was prior to the Union Electric. They had a big explosion, and I
think I was in high school then or maybe - I think I was. But I don't know whether there
was any fatalities or not, but a big explosion there. I can recall that.
But Alton always had a lot of industry. It was kind of a - of course everybody had a gas
and electric, some - and then the old water company. Of course that's owned by the Alton
Water Company. You pass that when you go down the River Road to Mt. Vernon because
they've got a lot of barricades there I think.
Q: Yes.
A: If you recall, that's just about three or four miles downstream
Q: Yes.

A: As you go by, that's the Alton Water Company. And of course that's on the river side.
Q: Now is that municipally owned?
A: No, it's not. It's privately owned. We don't have any municipal - we never did. I
know when I was in the city council there was an effort made to - the city of Alton wanted
to purchase the water company from the American - the American Water Company owns
that, but it came out that the mains weren't any good. And Christ, I haven't been to the
city council for forty years, so I don't think they've changed the mains. So the mains that
they had then - they're not any good now, but hell, our water's cheap. We get good water,
good service and it's cheap and all the lines now in any of these subdivisions are - or any
subdivision I guess in America - are all underground now you know.
Q: Well let's see now, you mentioned going up toward Grafton. Did you do any hunting
out that way or around the . . .
A: Well I fished. I didn't hunt. I never was a - but there's a lot of hunting up there,
duck hunting on the river, and of course I don't think you find quail and pheasant, but there's
a lot of quail out here, quail and squirrel and rabbit out here. We see deer out here occasionally.
Q: Well I'll be darned.
A: And I think Madison County has a deer season, but I doubt if there's a half a dozen
deer killed in the season out here. I think - I believe my boy's father-in-law got a deer
last year over near Highland or someplace in Madison County. But I don't hunt. A lot
of the fellows did. But I fished some. I guess I'm not a - my boy is - hell, he hunts and
fishes and it's kind of funny. I guess I didn't do it because my dad didn't do it, but he's
- just because dad and granddad didn't do it - he does it. Now he lives in Springfield,
Missouri. He works for the - oh, some big sports company that makes boats. I can't think
of that name, I can't think of that name now, but he's been down there - he worked for
the May Company right away when he got out of school, but he transferred down there,
got a better job, and - junior executive. He's going to be thirty-three next week, the tenth
of October.
Q: What kind of fishing did you do, boating?
A: Oh just bank - no, just bank fishing. You know, talking about that, if you go down,
if you notice, there's a lot of bank fishermen here on the River Road, and you see most of
them are black people. And I guess that's where they get their diet. There's all kinds of
them down under the bridge. If you go over the bridge to St. Louis, the Louis and Clark
bridges, if you look out, why, they're just, oh hell, you see just hundreds of them.
I had to laugh, the last time I paid the telephone bill, that's down on Market Street, that's
a - I'm jumping around, but there was some Oriental going down with his fishing
pole. And he couldn't talk I guess. Everybody that said, "Did you catch any?" to just be
jolly, you know friendly, he just - he couldn't tell you, just say something, he - he was
barefooted. These guys will have two or three poles you know and their bait and they've
got all of the equipment and of course we didn't have reels when we were kids. You'd just
bank fish with a fishing pole you know, and a worm for bait. Now these fellows have flies
and reels.
But there's a lot of boat fishing on there. You'll see somebody - you'll see, the day of the
duck season, right down at the bottom of the hill, there if you look out and see that Union
Electric power plant, it's upstream from Clifton, but you'll notice that where the water comes
and discharges into the river is warm - and hell, there will be ducks there. I guess the

ducks will be going south now in a couple of more weeks and where the water's warmer
you will just see, why, there's a thousand, I'll bet there's nine hundred and fifty. (chuckles)
Q: Well 1'11 be darned.
A: They seem to know that it's there, and that's been that way ever since that power plant's
been there. You'll see blinds out in the river. I'm sure that you see them in other communities
too.
Q: Rut you didn't do much duck hunting yourself?
A: No I didn't do any duck hunting. I didn't do any hunting. Oh I maybe went rabbit hunting,
like that. Champaign County's a great pheasant place. That's where my wife is from,
but I didn't - I did not. I was working most of the time and I just wasn't much of a
sportsman. My dad wasn't and I guess that's why I wasn't. But we fished some. Went
to a lot of athletic events and . . .
Q: Did you have any occasion to get down into Calhoun County for any . . .
A: Well not too often, but my wife had. Since I've grown up, hell, my daughter lived up
there for about five years - not five years, about three years - up at Brussels. She doesn't
live there now, she's out in California. But we used to cross the ferry all of the time. I
guess for two years straight she worked down at Alton but her husband worked for the
Conservation Corps. They've hroke up. That's been a long ten years ago. I guess. She'd
take the kids to the babysitter and my wife would pick them up and take them home and
I'd go with her half of the time when I was here and she'd pick them up five days a week
and take them up to cross the ferry at Brussels.
Q: Oh, I'll be darned. (chuckles)
A: I guess she done that for between two and three years. Of course she didn't if they
weren't in school or if they were sick or something. If they were sick they'd drop them off
here.
(taping stopped for telphone call, then resumed)
Q: What about the agriculture in the surrounding area here?
A: Well of course now, Jersey County, I mentioned my TJncle John - he had a two hundredacre
farm out in Jersey County, just south of Jerseyville, between Jerseyville and Delhi, and
he'd raise a lot of grain and we were out there in the summer and they'd have threshing
parties you know, and they'd thresh you know, and they'd come in and they'd have the -
all the wives of the other farmers, they'd bring their grain in, I mean the men would bring
their grain in. Their wives would come to set the table, they'd set the table out in the yards
you know. And that was a big thing. The Sunderlands had the threshing machine. It was
the only one they had.
Q: Sunderland, you say?
A: Sunderland family out of Jerseyville. Now that was the only - that was before the combine
though, see. I mean, hell, that was long before that. And oh, I've carried water to
the threshers many a summer.
Q: Oh you did? How did you go about doing that? Did you have a cart?
A: Well I had - I rode a horse. (chuckles) I rode a horse and we'd just ride a wagon
and I've helped my Uncle John shuck corn.

Q: Oh? Were you a pretty good corn shucker?
A: I don't know whether I was good or not, he probably didn't think so but I got
by. (laughter) He'd give me fifty cents I think, or something like that.
Jersey County of course is not like in Edgar and Mclean and Champaign and those surrounding
counties, but there was a good strand of land in Jersey County. But in Calhoun County
- I don't think Calhoun County had too many crops.
And while we're talking about that, you know you mentioned Wittmond. I looked up -
he served six terms. See, I was out for four terms and I see he served four of his six terms
when I was out. And I didn't know that. I know him. He has that Wittrnond Hotel. A
lot of people go up there to eat in the fall and the summer and the spring. Of course that
Illinois River, they'll shut those ferries down maybe the first of December until the first
of March.
Q: Oh they do?
A: They have to go around. I mean that was a big pain in the neck when my daughter
lived in Brussels. You'd have to go around, you'd have to go up on the Hardin side and
cross the bridge and come down and then you'd have to come back. I think it was about
a forty-mile round trip. And I guess my daughter and her husband - he must have done
it a lot of times.
Of course it was a good place to live. I wish they were there. I think they both wish they
were right back up there. But that's not here nor there. But they had a nice little home,
but that's a nice place. Some people, they either live in Hardin or Brussels and get anything
you want. It might be a little higher but you can go to school and church. And they've
got a hospital in Jerseyville, and you can make it up there. They've got a post office and
they get papers. I think Calhoun County itself is an island, isn't it? Is it an island?
Q: No it's a peninsula I believe.
A: Peninsula?
Q: Because up north of IIardin it's - widens into a . . .
A: Yes I guess so. But there's no - there's no railroad in Calhoun County I don't think.
Q: I believe there was years and years ago. There was a spur - a short one - that ran
from, oh, someplace around the tip up to a brick factory of some sort that used to be there.
A: That's right.
Q: Do you remember the brick factory?
A: That's right. You're right. Well we had a brick factory here too. The Alton Brick.
Q: Oh you did?
A: Talking about - there was the Alton Brick and it was family-owned and as you come
down from Springfield or Chicago or go up on the Amtrak, why - I always called it the
C & A - why, you'll see the remains of it. Sam Ode11 had a big sign out - always had
a big sign - "Sam for reelection." He don't need any signs but - he'll win - but he's
got a big sign out there. And it's the old furnaces - they had ovens you know, I guess,
where they'd bake the bricks, that's the old - and it's a huge building, huge building, a
huge shell of a building.

And of course, hell, I guess, when I was a kid, that the streets of Alton were paved with
brick before they - yes, because, hell, they paved Washington Avenue and State Street -
State Street where the old cathedral was, and they was paving that when I was in high
school.
Q: Well.
A: Paved it with brick and we'd see the sand and we'd race up on the sand and take our
shoes off, when we were in school at recess, or after school and race in the sand, and they'd
lay brick. But you'll see a lot of brick streets in Alton yet I guess that were paved with
Alton brick. Of course that was to keep the money in town you know, and of course in
those days property owners paid for their paving. And I guess they still do. Because we're
paying for this. If you want to - your subdivision - but probably like Washington Avenue
is the main thoroughfare and College Avenue is a main thoroughfare. State Street was the
main thoroughfare, Central Avenue, those name streets, and I'm sure that you were allowed
to have ten years to go on your tax bill. But they paid for those, the paving of those
streets. And I guess they still do, if they get any repairs. You put in your own sidewalks
and the way the real estate taxes have gone now, I doubt whether you can afford much of
that.
Q: Yes sir. (chuckles)
A: I guess that was an accepted custom in those days. There must have been hrick - I
wonder where the Calhoun Brick Company would peddle its bricks. Jacksonville or any
place I guess.
Q: I don't know.
A: Rut there was something in the paper about that in the Fifty-year Ago column recently,
some guy took a wagon ride to Calhoun and he said, "It was fifty years ago 1 had hot bricks
from the Calhoun Brick Company to keep my feet warm."
Q: Oh is that right? I'll be doggoned. (chuckles)
A: Yes. Just a little item you know, the Fifty-year Ago column.
I believe the way it came up, we were - I had asked whether there were railroads, just
as you had, in Calhoun County, and he indicated that one to the brickworks. Also it seems
to me that the brickworks must have been there for a long long time because the hotel,
the bricks in the hotel were made at that brickworks and the hotel was built in 1848 J think
or someplace along there.
Q: One thing - now you've mentioned several, quite a few, of these businesses as being
family-owned. I guess that's changed through the years has it not?
A: Oh sure, sure.
Q: The large conglomerates?
A: Alton was noted for that. As a kid, I had often hcard - I couldn't verify this - that
Alton had more millionaires per thousand population than any city in that category in the
nation. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. I guess you could find that at the
library. It's not essential knowledge, but the truth is that some of these historians is sometimes
inaccurate you know. It makes good reading so they just say it, that's all.
Q: Yes sir.

A: Maybe it makes good talking to me, but there was a tremendous lot of family-owned businesses
in Alton. And I think Alton is justifiably proud of that. As I mentioned the Western
Cartridge, the Owens-Illinois, and the nuncan Foundry, and of course the refineries
weren't, but all of that's changed.
Of course, Western Cartridge is still called Owen, but they're - 1 think they've merged with
the, it's Owen-Mathison now, and I believe they've got their headquarters out east, but they
still employ a big number of people. They have a subsidiary out there, just about two miles
on - you see it on Route 3, and that's a sixteen-hour shift. Of course those guys could
shut down. Now like in the refinery, that's an around-the-clock operation because you can't
shut those stills down you know. You might circulate them.
Q: Oh?
A: But Shell came in here, they had their fiftieth anniversary here - I was still in the
assembly. They came in 1918 and that was 1968, and they have been a bulwark of economic
strength to the community, Standard oil has. Of course all of those places I mentioned,
all of the little or big - Duncan Foundry was a family-owned - and it's shut down now
temporarily, but they've been there, hell, for - Christ, I guess they've been there for as
long as I've been alive and longer. I'm sure that they have been there for seventy-five,
eighty-five years. And there are still Duncans around. It's a big family and they're good
people. They're good people.
Q: Well let's see now, you say you graduated from high school in June and went into the
oil company in July.
A: That's right.
Q: How did you get that job so quickly out of high school?
A: Well I don't know. (chuckles) It seemed like that Shell was the better place to apply
for work if you - one qualification, at least you had to be a high school graduate. And
I had average intelligence and went down and took a signed application and took an aptitude
test and took a physical examination and they were just hiring guys, I never had any pull. I
didn't know anybody who had worked there. I knew some fellows that were in the laboratory
when I went in.
I went to work on the fourteenth day of July. On the eleventh of July they had hired me
but the fellow who had been off sick came back to work, and they said, "We'll call you for
the next job." And there was a job open on the fourteenth. We didn't have vacations in
those days. Now this is the gospel truth, talking about that, I got forty-four cents an
hour. I was a bottle washer in the laboratory.
And I went to work the fourteenth. And the pay period ended on the fifteenth. So I had
two days - they get paid the sixth and the twenty-first of the month, and the twenty-first
of July I had a two-day pay period coming. But the following period was a sixteen-day
period from July 16 to July 31, that's sixteen days. And that particular pay period of that
year was three Sundays. We worked seven days a week, we got ten hours for working
Sunday. And I had - well what with the sixteen-day pay, it would be, I think I had eightyeight
hours coming. A hundred and - sixteen days, eight times - would be a hundred
and eight, and had three Sundays I guess. I got, I know, a check - I got forty-four cents
an hour and my mother couldn't believe it. Of course there was no deducts you know. It
was a forty-eight dollar paycheck or something like that. And of course money went farther
then you know and we probably would have been better off if we never grew up in this
country. That wouldn't he right to say that though. (chuckles) Rut T remember that.
Q: What did a bottle washer do? Did he just wash bottles? (laughter)

A: Wrll they had sample boys. A sample boy was - it was on the seniority system, and
he washed - a lot of the samples came in in bottles. And they'd ship a lot of oil products
in bottles, just quart bottles for samples. It was a sample testing laboratory that tested various
competitors' products and they'd all - it seemed like 75 percent of them came in bottles
and we just had a bottle washing machine that would feed in hot water or lukewarm water
and rinse them out, and then we'd put them on a dryer. And you never lacked for
work. (chuckles)
Q: Well.
A: They saw to that, you never lacked for work.
Q: How soon did you move up to being a sample carrier'!
A: Well pretty quick. I was just going to say about - well I only worked - the bottle
washer was strictly a day job. And I got prornotcd to sample carrier - I started in July,
and hell, 1 was carrying samples by Labor Day I'm sure. I'm sure I started the middle or
latter part of August. We worked three shifts, eight to four, four to twelve, and twelve
to eight, and my first duties as a sampler was going to work on the graveyard. And I know
there was a big tank across from the laboratory. The first tank I sampled was that tank.
Q: Now how did you go about that? Did you just open the tank and dish it out?
A: Well you had a belt to carry your quart bottle in, a sample-carrying belt. And just clumb
up the tank. You had to be pretty agile, be careful, most tanks now have a guard, top and
bottom you know. If you notice when you go out to a refinery, you'll see - of course most
of them have steps. Now some of them did have, some had steps, but most of the tanks
we sampled in my career as a sample carrier the only place they had a guard was when
you got up on top and you opened up the top of the tank and you'd lean back, the guard
rail was what they called it, and you'd take your sample. You kept a quart bottle container
as they called it, with a chain, you kept it on top of the tank, and then you'd put your bottle
in that carrier and lower it into the tank.
Q: I see.
A: And if a tank was full, sometimes you'd have to get top, middle and bottom. You'd have
to get three samples. And you wouldn't have to make three trips up the ladder, but you'd
lower the samples as you got them. You'd have a cork and you'd put it in. And lower them
down. It was manual labor I guess, classified as manual labor. You didn't get too many
top and bottoms, but sometimes some chemist would get - and more power to them - would
get the idea, I guess they wanted to see if they were stratified, I suppose, you know. Maybe
they'd have to agitate it more or the petroleum product maybe it was a blend going to go
to some special customer, and they wanted it to he as near mixed as it could be, and
that's . . .
Q: How did they go about mixing it? Did they have a - something . . .
A: Well they had an agitation. Some tanks you could put air in. But most of the mixings
were done in the old Shell refinery where I worked in what they called backs agitators. Now
we in the laboratory didn't do that.
Now, it wasn't long - I think by Christmas I was up to tester in that laboratory. And we
got double-time on Christmas, I remember that. The Fourth of July and Christmas. We
got double-time on two days.
Q: Well!

A: The Fourth of July and Christmas, and you'd have - we were in what they called the
lube lab. It was the smallest lab because we didn't deal so much with gasoline, hut they'd
run the viscosities on motor oil and flash and see what it - you had a flash room. And
we had accidents. I was fortunate. I never had a lost-time accident. I got burnt maybe,
minor burns and never had any broken bones or never got any acid or anything like that
in my eyes. I was very fortunate there. I was careful. But they had accidents in the
refinery. Hell, in 1951, I think, they lost eighteen men. I was on day shift that day. It
happened at midnight. It was just shortly after Pat was born I believe. I guess it was
1949, I guess it was. No I think it was 1951. Maybe Pat was two years old. That's what
it was.
Shell was an interesting place and I finally - after I had been in the lab, I guess about
six years, you could get more money if you worked out in the plant, out in the stills. And
I don't know what year it was, 1932 or 1933, after things started to break and business got
better, they had some openings - I don't know what they called - we called it out in the
plant. You had to go down to the employment office and tell them you wanted to go out
in the plant. Of course you had to tell them in the laboratory that you wanted to go out
in the plant, and if there was an opening, and if they thought you were qualified - you
would have to take an IQ test or something like that - they'd transfer you to that particular
division.
And I went out I think in the spring of 1933, and I stayed there until I retired. And it
was a small place and at one time we had maybe ten men on a shift you'd call it. Maybe
there was a couple of day jobs, but I never had a day job. But those jobs generally went
to people that were chemists or something like that. There wasn't any day jobs in the treating
for high school people.
And a lot of fellows went to school. Of course as I mentioned to you that one time, that's
what tempted me to go to that political science class, but I wasn't going to get anywhere
in politics out at Shell. But I didn't like chemistry or engineering or anything like that. So
I just took that. But a lot of fellows followed their education by going to Shurtleff or Washington
U. or St. Louis U. at night school, and they burned the candles at both ends and
some of them were rewarded and some of them weren't. Oh, several advanced to supervisory
capacity and later to department heads, but I guess my main ambition was then - because
by that time, hell, I was in the Young Democrats and I had only - I hadn't been in the
treating department for eight years so I didn't run for office as committeeman or alderman
or something like that, and other guys were doing it too.
We had several fellows that would run for various posts. I know we had one guy that ran
for sheriff and he couldn't make it and he was pretty disappointed, in our department, and
his name was Cuty. And he just died recently but he - he - well, he was disappointed,
but I think he ran for sheriff, or maybe he ran for mayor of Rock Center. That's what
it was, he ran for mayor of Rock Center. He didn't make it, but then somebody always
gets beaten in elections you know, I mean, like all of these fellows on - Thompson and
Stevenson aren't both going to win. (chuckles)
SESSION 2, TAPE 4, SIDE 1
Q: Now I wanted to ask - now you evidently went to, an oil field in Texas . .
A: Well in 1931, I was still in the laboratory, nineteen - no, that's wrong. Wait a minute,
let me see . . .
Q: According to the paper it was 1931.

A: Well I guess it was. I was still in the laboratory. Sure, I was still in the laboratory. I
did. I went down there in 1931, about this time of the year I guess. I know we were down
there at Thanksgiving. We left right after Labor Day I guess. There was another Kennedy,
a pipefitter, he wasn't related to me, and two testers out of the experimental lab, Edsel and
Hacke. And I was a tester out of the lube lab. That's the way it was. And they built
stills and went out in the oil fields. And this is kind of a coincidence that we went to Tulsa,
Oklahoma, and got to ride the Pullman from St. Louis to Tulsa, which was something. And
we picked up - they sent a chemist by the name of Vursell, and the fellow that picked
us up at Tulsa, from the Shell oilfields in Texas, his name was Kennedy.
Q: Well!
A: We had two Model A's. We went to McCamey, Texas; Iran, Texas, out in the west Texas
field, west of the Pecos. When we got down there oil was selling for two bits a barrel.
Q: Oh?
A: I'm quite sure that's true because that was at the height of the Depression. And didn't
they have a moratorium on oil that you could only - I guess they still have it - you could
only pump so many barrels a day out of this well A and well B has to be turned on then,
and . . . but it was - you've seen Judge Roy Bean of the "West of the Texas" on television,
reruns, well that's where we were.
We lived in an oil field dormitory where the roustabouts worked, slept in a big dormitory,
and it was clean and we had good food and recreation. We got to go into - oh, McCamey
and Iran were oil field towns but they had picture shows and things like dance halls if you
wanted to dance, and prohibition wasn't in then, but I didn't drink much. I imagine you
could get a hard drink if you wanted to, because there was bootleggers every place in those
days I imagine. (laughter)
Q: Yes sir.
A: And, oh, I guess there was cathouses too, but I don't remember that. I never frequent
those places myself. It was an experience because what we were doing, there was a, big
field in the Iran area and in the Pegasus area, derricks, and not all of the wells were
pumping. I guess they wanted to determine I suppose the - it seemed like in that, Oklahoma
crude was superior to Texas crude, but I believe the Oklahoma fields were drying out,
have dried out, but the Texas fields, they were adding additives to it and things like
that. We didn't do that but that's what the chemists would determine. We'd run the tests
and then they would send the information further along to determine what - I know we
were there Thanksgiving, I think we got word to come home. We were wondering whether
we'd get home Christmas. And I think that the word came through they were going to
abandon the project right around Thanksgiving. I think we either packed up and left
Thanksgiving Day or the day before or the day after. We didn't get home until sometime
around the first of December. We weren't down there too long, about two months. I mean
all of September or maybe all of October and all of September, or maybe October and Nov
- ten weeks I think, at the most, or maybe twelve weeks.
But it was an interesting experience. Of course you got to see how different people lived
you know. And I imagine if we'd have stayed we might he billionaires now, we'd have gotten
a couple of wells. I don't know whether we would have or not. But of those four guys or
the five guys that went, Edsell's dead and Kennedy's dead and Vursell is dead, and Hackc
and I are the only two living and I see Hacke occasionally. He's a man of about my
age. He's an active Republican. (chuckles)
Q: Oh is that right? Well, good.

A: I mean his wife is I think, and he goes along. I've known him all my life and most of
the fellows that - and girls - that graduated in my class that arc left are still around
here. Of course you've always got some that leave, some come back. And some marry and
leave you know.
Q: Was this oil field down there owned by Shell or did they operate it or what?
A: Well you know it must have had to be I guess. Don't these refineries have joint
projects? You see that. This guy Hammer was the Occidental, he's got more joint projects
going than any man in the moon I think and I'm sure that in those days that they wcrc
jointly owned because the risk is great. Now particularly the costs are greater. And you
can see that when you read about these offshore drilling rigs that - in this particular offshore
area, the Gulf area, over in the North Sea or off the - of course they abandoned
the Atlantic Sea, but particularly the Gulf and the Florida coast, they're all jointly owned,
for natural gas purposes and for petroleum purposes. And maybe Shell's got 20 percent and
Amoco's got 30 percent and at the next well Shell's got the 30 and Amoco's got the 20 and
Arco's in with 20, and that's the way they do. Oh, their costs are tremendous.
I guess that out there in that North Sea, I think that's one of the best offshore producing
areas in the world. Of course none of them equal Saudi Arabia because they don't have
to go down so far over there I understand. Talking about oil fields, there were a number
of fellows about the time that we went to Texas, Standard Oil refinery - of course the factory
has closed now - sent a number of men to Aruba - is Aruba in Venezuela'? I believe
it is.
Q: I believe it is.
A: Down in South America. Some fellows went down there to help run the refinery and
stayed a couple, three years. Of course they'd come home for vacation and some made a
career of it. But different men from Shell were transferred to various overseas
positions. Of course Shell was owned by Royal Dutch Shell, and 1 guess the Royal Dutch
Shell is - I've read their reports before because I've owned some Shell stock in my lifc
that today - but the Royal Dutch Shell, I'm quite sure that even their most recent annual
report will state that the English government has some of their holdings.
Q: Well I'll be darned.
A: Not the royal family but the government itself, they've got money invested in Royal
Dutch Shell. Of course now the North Sea, of course you know the government's going to
get some money out of that because they have territorial rights.
Q: Yes.
A: They aren't going to give it to Waggoner and Kennedy and let them run an oil rig out
there for nothing. (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir.
A: Oh my career at the refinery was a very fascinating thing. As I grew older though, and
tired of shift work, and I was getting some tenure in the General Assembly, I had it in
the back of my head to quit. Which I did. Of course I got delayed there. I got defeated
in 1954, but I stayed right at it and come back in 1962 and I stayed about five more years. I
came back in the 1963 session and I retired before the 1967 session started in February.
Q: Yes sir. Sir you mentioned in your first paycheck that there were no deductions from
it. When did you join the union out there?

A: Well I joined the union July the first, 1933. We never had payroll deductions when I
was in the union.
Q: Oh?
A: Never did. Now they have it now, but we only paid maybe a dollar or six bits a
month. But we had to pay that ourself. We got fined if we didn't. I want to show you
that. (proffers card) 1 guess you'll get some notes later on from me, but I think
there's . . . when I joined the engineers, I think right there.
Q: Oh. Let's see. (reads) "Leland J. Kennedy . . ."
A: August the first, 1933.
Q: Yes sir
A: I think that's in the 1947 book. Let's see. (picks up and looks through book) I see that
I didn't attend many union meetings. I got fined a dollar and eighty cents. That's what
we got if we - that was our dues a month, and if we didn't go to a meeting - they had
two meetings a month - we had to pay a dollar eighty cents. That's what that was.
Q: Oh? (chuckles)
A: I was shop steward for a while when we first started. We didn't call them shop stewards,
we had grievance men. And I was a griever, as I was called, but I didn't particularly care
for that. I always carried a union card and I'm proud to have been a union member, but
I never aspired to be in the leadership of it. 1 don't know why, 1 guess I wasn't rough
enough I suppose. I don't know whether I was rough or not. That's a kind of a bad word
to use, but I just didn't aspire to it, that's all.
Q: Do you remember some of the grievances that came up at that time?
A: Oh most of them were minor. We had an overtime list you know, and maybe if Joe Doe
got more overtime than Bill Doe, why, the other guy would grieve about that. And some
of them were very important, rcgarding safety. And they have safety rules and they have
grievances. Maybe a pipefitter might want a permit to work on a line and the operator who
had that particular piece of equipment as his responsibility, the pump or the section of the
area where they were, why, he may not have cleaned it wcll enough or the pipefitter didn't
think he cleaned it well enough, he might just grieve for just orncryness, or something like
that. Grievances were - oh some of them were major.
We had several strikes out at Shell, but this was a departmental grievance. I was only a
griever for two years I think, and J can ncver recall having to take one to the union floor.
You could generally work it out between the shift foreman arid the department head because
we were a small department, and as I said the most men we ever had was I think forty-four
and mayhe a couple in the office and the department manager. And never reached fifty. We
could generally settle our grievances. 1 don't ever recall going above the department heads,
going over his head with a griwanct..
We were a good union, and the company recognized us and we got along and we never had
any - oh, they had a big strike out there in 1962. But the departmental grievances didn't
bring it up. The refineries were automating, twenty years ago, thirty years ago you know,
and you could see it coming because they were going to cut some jobs and staff and departmental
personnel and in maintenance, that's all. And it was a strike that just, I guess, had
to happen because they gave a lot of fellows that were in the age category, twenty years
ago, 1962 - well, I was fifty-four, they didn't go that low. But they gave a lot of fellows
what they called the golden handshake. They gave them severance pay. We called it the

golden handshake. They'd give you maybe two-thirds of a year's pay, plus your pension that
you were eligible for at that time.
But that strike, they ran that refinery in that strike. All refineries when they strike now,
the management personnel run them. I just read where some refinery down - they're
always striking down in Texas. They just went back to work after, oh, six or seven months,
but the management ran the refinery. They may not run it at 100 percent capacity, but
they run it with management personnel. Because the law - you can have peaceful picketing,
but you can't keep a monthly man from going to work, you can't do that, a man that doesn't
belong to your union, you can't keep him from going to work. I guess that's the way it
should be, but they ran that refinery and that's all there was to it. But that's just part of
the industrial revolution.
But when you talk about Alton being - Alton was a fine industrial town and it's fallen
on bad times now just due to the economics of the situation I suppose. It's no one's
fault. You could always get a job in Alton if you wanted a job.
There was an old mineral plant down here that was Federal Lead. My dad worked there
and, hell, he dropped dead down there. I didn't even mention that because it was a small
place, American Smelting, where my dad dropped dead in 1937. I used to watch him down
there. He'd come down pretty far and I used to watch for him down there. He had a job
in personnel there after the glassworks, but they were retrenching and - and some - one
of the other fellows got laid off from a management job and he had to have a job and he
had more seniority than my dad and he got my dad's job and my dad got a watch from
his job.
But Federal Lead was there - but it's not there anymore. It belonged to American
Smelting. You can still see the remains of the old plant.
In fact the Illinois Terminal interurban, the one that went to St. Louis, used to go right
through town, they brought the tracks down and put them in back of the glassworks and
steelworks and Federal Lead and that's - oh hell, they done that thirty years ago I guess,
forty years ago, took the tracks up off the middle of town and moved them closer to the
river. Of course a lot of people rode those at one time. And you could get off at Vine Street
or Ridge Street. Of course the glassworks closed Vine Street. You had to walk through
part of the plant to get off there. And they stopped that. And then they closed the Ridge
Street that crossed Central Avenue. And they closed the Ridge Street crossing and then
pretty soon there wasn't any more interurbans. There wasn't anybody riding them. Hell,
fifty years ago you could take your date and get on the car and go down to St. Louis for
thirty-five cents a roundtrip.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Sure. And they - hell, they ran every hour on the hour from 6:00 o'clock in the morning
till midnight. Just as regular - and sometimes they'd run double-headers and tripleheaders.
They'd just be loaded with people.
Q: Did they have their own bridge across the Mississippi?
A: No it wasn't - the McKinley bridge - isn't he the founder of the Terminal Railroad,
the McKinley bridge. He was a brother of the president, wasn't he?
Q: I'm not sure.
A: Didn't we have a president by the name of McKinley that got shot, didn't we?
Q: Yes.

A: Sure. Well it was that family. Well sure, the McKinley bridge it's still in operation. It
belongs to the city of Venice. Eileen and I, we go that way all the time, come home from
St. Louis that way. When we go downtown, we just get on that, it's a toll bridge, of course
the Lewis and Clark bridge ia a free bridge, but it's a toll bridge. You come right up Route
3.
It's a good way to come for me, where I live. Everybody doesn't, but it's a good four-lane
highway. Route 3 is a good route. I'm sure the McKinley family went across the McKinley
bridge. It used to be called the McKinley Interurban Company I believe. I think so. I'm
glad you brought that up. That shows two minds are better than one.
Q: I wonder, wasn't that particular part of the McKinley family from up around Champaign
someplace?
A: They could be. Now I don't know that, Mr. Waggoner
Q: Danville or someplace in that area?
A: They could be. I think you might be correct there. Hell, my wife used to ride the interurban
from Springfield to Champaign. And they had an old terminal station out there in
Springfield. Well I've ridden it before, not from Champaign, but from, as I said, IIamel. I
used to go to Springfield and I'd get off there occasionally, not very often, not maybe over
half a dozen times but they haven't run the Terminal railroad even in Springfield I guess
for twenty years, have they?
Q: No.
A: I wouldn't think so. But I know I had a lawyer friend by the name of Batcs. What
you're doing, he'd just jump at it because he was a great . . . historian, I guess, or civics
man. And he was a crackerjack lawyer. He'd give the Telegraph hell all the time. But
he wrote a book, or synopsis, one time just talking about the end of the electric railway. He
said, "At one time you could get on the interurban at Altnn and you'd have to make a lot
of transfers - it might take you a week - and go within twenty miles of New York."
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: That's what he said.
I$: Well I'll be doggoned.
A: And he has a boy here that's - I think his boy works for the state of Illinois on their
crime investigation. I'm not sure that's true, but I think he does.
Of course talking about Jerseyville and my uncle Johnny, they had the old AJ&P [Alton,
Jacksonville and Peoria] and hell, I was still a kid. The old AJ&P went from Alton to
Jerseyville, made intermediate stops, didn't stop many places going from Alton to Jerseyville.
I think they went to Jacksonville. And hell, it didn't last ten years. It went right through
my Uncle John's parents' home farm, the Walsh family, it went right through
there. And . . .
Q: Now the "P" was what? Peoria?
A: AJ&P. I guess it went to Peoria, AJ&P, I guess it went to Peoria, AJ&P, sure, AJ&P. 1
guess it went to Peoria, sure. Well there was something in the paper about it recently. The
older I get, I read the Fifty-year Ago column . . .
Q: Yes.

A: . . . and the twenty-five. But you know, talking about Jerseyville, when you and your
wife and family are out riding around looking for something, there is a nice town.
Q: Oh?
A: It's a good farming community, it's clean. We go up there a lot to shop. Walmart's
got a store up there. Of course they've got the Kroger and National, but they've got one
of those discount grocery stores I mean. But they've got good churches there, both Protestant
and Catholic, a clean town, about twenty thousand people, oh hell, it ain't that big - ten
thousand. But it's the county seat of Jersey County. It would be an ideal place to live,
to raise a family and all of that. I always told my boy, Don, I said, "If you ever decide
you want to change,'' I said, "you ought to go up there and if you'd like to be a farmer,"
I said, "hell," I says, "go in debt and buy you a farm," and I said, "Raise your family up
there." Of course he's satisfied where he is, but he likes the town. We all like it.
They've got a hospital, they've got theaters. It's a town that has no ethnic problems or
anything like that. It's not a racist town, it's just a fine little community.
It's not in my district, but I was up to a rally at. Marquette Park when Stevenson was there,
sometime in July. And talking about Marquette Park, we'd go up there sometimes on -
they have a Sunday brunch you know, at the restaurant there. We've been up there to eat
several times. But Jersey County's a good county and Jerseyville's a good town. It's a very
nice place to live.
SESSION 3, TAPE 5, SIDE 1
A: I meant to tell you there probably wasn't two cases of beer drank in our house in the
forty-five years Mom lived there, but she had it. And we used to tease her about it, she
always liked eggnog at Christmas time.
Q: Oh? Well. (chuckles)
A: Whatever the hell that was. (laughter)
Q: Was it spiked eggnog?
A: Well I think my sister spiced it, yes.
Q: I see.
A: It had a little wine, maybe a little whiskey, but she always enjoyed that.
Q: Alright sir. Do you want to fill in some things now?
A: Let's see, did I mention about both of my grandfathers being in the Civil War?
Q: No you didn't sir.
A: Well I wanted to mention that.
Q: What capacity - do you recall anything about . . .
A: Well my grandfather Kennedy was a captain, was mustered out as a captain.
Q: Oh?

A: And Grandfather Herwick was mustered out as a corporal. I don't know how much pay
they got. But here about two or three years ago, maybe just eighteen months ago, there
appeared on the market a book written by somebody about Sherman's march to the sea. My
grandfather was in that but he isn't mentioned in that book. Grandfather Kennedy got mustered
out out in the Virginias, I have the record of that someplace, I'm going to look it
up. But Grandfather Herwick was mustered out in St. Louis. They were both mustered
out after Lincoln was shot in the fall of 1865. Lincoln was shot on a Good Friday - that's
a hell of a thing to refer to as the assassination of a president, but I recall reading that.
Q: Yes sir.
A: But that's all I wanted to add. I'm ready to go which way you want to go now.
Q: Okay. Well we were talking yesterday about your experiences with Shell Oil Company.
A: Alright.
Q: And I was wondering about your experiences with the labor union there with the
company.
A: Well I could relate a lot about it I guess, if 1 can think it verbatim, or whatever the
proper phrase would be. The first thing when I hired in at Shell in July of 1927 there wasn't
any union. They had no union. You mentioned, "IIow did I get the job?" Well I just filled
out an application. And I can't even recall who - I'm sure I had to have references. I can't
recall who they were. One thing at that time, or in that decade, we'll say, from 1927 to
1937, why, Standard Oil had a hiring practice too. Rut Standard Oil always liked to hire
relatives you know, sons of fathers or daughters of fathers, or - but at Shell you couldn't
- at that time you couldn't have any brothers. Now of course that was violated sometimes
because some guys fibbed about it I guess. There was some violation but I'd say it was a
rule at Shell that was strictly adhered to in 95 percent of their hirings.
What brought the union into Shell? Of course the election of Roosevelt. He was elected
in November of 1932. Of course he didn't take office until March of 1933. And 1 think
immediately the NRA [National Recovery Act] was passed and we got a raise. We all got
a raise. I was what I'd call out of the plant then. The light oil treaters. I'd gone there
maybe from the lab after six years, maybe after five years. And there was - I won't say
there was a lot of discontent, but the right to organize a union was granted under the
National Labor Relations Board, if I recall it right. It seemed to stir emotions in hourly-paid
employees, of all crafts. Shell ended up with craft unions. Of course that meant pipe fitters
and laborers and machinists and bricklayers and riggers and - I think there was thirteen,
either twelve or thirteen crafts, Now the operating engineers, how come we went into the
operating engineers I don't know. They sent in an organizer naturally. I never aspired to
be an officer in a union except that two years I told you I was on the grievance committee.
Q: Yes.
A: The American Legion had their home on Ferguson Avenue in Wood River, and they
rented it out, but their home was - they called it a dugout. It was a basement, and they
never completed the building at that time.
Q: Oh.
A: They just had the basement complete. Of course it was all furnished and had facilities,
a kitchen and lavatories and it was an auditorium. But it was in the basement. And we
had our organization meeting down there and I was a charter member.
At that time, well, I suppose there was, oh, T imagine seven or eight hundred eligible for
the engineers. And I was among the first hundred to sign up. Of course that particular

day I would say that half of the force signed up, half of the shift workers signed up, the
operators, the steelman helpers as they were called then. Most of the fellows came from
Alton and Wood River and Edwardsville and of course Roxana and Hartford and surrounding
towns, East Alton. And then they went there and signed up and they had a meeting later
on and elected officers.
There was no noticeable change except that they had grievances with the company and meetings
with the company. How quick they signed the contract I don't know, I really don't
know. We had a number of strikes at Shell from 1936 until the time I left in 1967, maybe
a half a dozen. I'm not sure that's right, maybe four or five or six.
Q: Do you remember the first occasion for a strike?
A: No, I think it was 1936.
Q: Oh?
A: I'm pretty sure that the record would prove that right. And, oh, it only lasted maybe
two weeks or ten days. Whether we set up a picket line and you were assigned picket duties
- there was never any real violence until they had that big strike, 1'11 get to that later
on. As I had mentioned before that I don't think we ever had over fifty men, staff and hourlypaid
and clerical force, in our entire career, I mean in my entire career. Of course it dropped
terrifically in the last ten years of my career there.
And if I recall it, we had four shifts there. We worked thirty-six hours a week I think at
that time. That's all we worked. And in 1931 and 1932 it was strictly a seniority. And
the operators had their own seniority lists and the pipefitters had their own, and the machinists
had their own. And the instrument men and the laborers, which was a big local -
the laborers, the pipefitters and the machinists and the engineers were the four biggest locals.
And the operating engineers was the largest. But each had their own separate local
with separate officers and they had their own separate seniority lists.
The bricklayers had their own union, and I think at that time the riggers and the hoisting
engineers were in our union. And I always thought maybe the operating engineers might
have been the wrong local for us to belong to because it didn't sound like they were - we
were one of the first refineries that the International Union of Operating Engineers ever
had jurisdiction over. Later on the CIO [Congress of Industrial Organizations] came along
and they had an oil and atomic workers union formed then, and I believe that the Standard
Oil refinery still belongs to them, what's left. And I think they have a number of refineries
down in the south and out west.
But after that 1936 strike, why - as I said I don't think it lasted very long - we went
back to work. And well, you're going to have interim troubles and departmental troubles. I
think things rode along pretty good. Of course the war clouds were coming on. That's what
it was, the war clouds were coming on. And we were working thirty-six hours a week, here
I'm going to say I let the 1930's run out of time. I'm in the 1940's now. Well with the first
draft registration - registered in 1940, I think, at least I did I believe, and I think there
was a number of fellows in service in 1941 and 1940. They were in the service when Pearl
Harbor happened and prior to Pearl Harbor wasn't there - the guys over thirty-five got
to come back home that were in service for a certain bit of time? I think they released
them and they called them back in the day after Pearl Harbor.
I can recall Pearl Harbor. We were living on Washington Avenue. We were bringing up
a new SO 2 Plant in my department. It was a new system to form some special engineers
and chemists. I think it was SO 2 and we were doing something to gasoline for aviation
fuel, having to meet government qualifications, specifications I guess would be a better word.

Q: Yes.
A: And if you got called out on overtime at that time - I don't know whether they still
do it - they come and pick you up. If you get an overtime notice. Once I worked twelve
hours. I went to work at noon and worked till midnight that night on Pearl Harbor
Sunday. And of course for the twelve hours there I got paid fourteen hours, you got overtime
for it.
Shell progressed pretty nice during the war. I recall I didn't go into the service until 1943.
But we were working thirty-six hours a week, and the company I think wanted us to go
on forty-eight, manpower shortage. And we had a big meeting up at the hall. We rented
a hall from somebody down on Ferguson Avenue. And 1 think they still have the meetings
there. I'm pretty sure it's the same place, the same lady is still living 1 believe. Oh they
had different secretaries and the size of the office has decreased I think now. But just
shortly before I went into service they went on what they called the forty-two hour week.
There's a hundred and - is there a hundred and sixty-eight hours in a week, is that right?
Q: Well, twenty-four times seven, sounds about right, yes.
A: Well when you worked thirty-six hours a week you had to have a shift breaker. And
when you worked forty-two hours a week you didn't need a shift breaker so that they could
man the refinery with less men because they were losing men to the servicc every month
you know.
Q: Yes.
A: Considering that they'd have to go be registered, go before the draft board, unless you're
enlisted. And they had voluntary lists of programs and things like that down at thc draft
board that you could adhere to and I got one deferment, one six-month deferment. My
brother went into the service early in 1941. My mother was a widow and I got one sixmonth
deferment. In that meantime I had heard that there was a pipeline engineer group
being formed to, I guess, pump gasoline. That's what they did overseas and in Europe, and
of course D-Day hadn't happened yet but they were preparing for it.
Rut there wasn't any labor unrest during the war. There never was a lot of labor unrest
out at Shell except that the guys would talk up about themselves you know. Shell was a
good company to work for. I guess they'll be shocked to hear me saying that. But they
were. I didn't get along with them too good, I'll get to that later on with reference to my
leaves. So I went into the service and . . .
Q: I wonder, could we drop back a little bit and think of the political aspects during the
1930's. Now in the early 1930's you were connected with the Young Democrat organization.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 (EXTRACT)
A: Well, let's see. I didn't get to vote for A1 Smith in the Smith and Hoover - well I graduated
from high school in July, or June, 1927. And thirty days later I went to work for
the Shell refinery and I stayed there until I retired in 1967. I can remcmher you'd hear
fellows argue about politics and all that and I'd get in them.
And then after the 1928 election, why, the tide maybe turned to the Democratic party. That
was the party of my birth, I guess. And I joined the Young Democrats at the beginning
of the - I think in 1930, 1 guess. I'd go to all of the political rallies, both Democrat and
Republican, I'd go to all of them because I liked them. And I was a Young Democrat and
I was on their executive committee and I was a delegate. I got elected as delegate to the

Young Democrat convention, elected from the floor of the Alton Young Democrats, to their
convention in Edwardsville.
SESSION 3, TAPE 5, SIDE 1 (continued)
A: Now, if there was any political aspects with reference to labor organizations or jobs at
Shell, I don't recall that unless they were just bickering among the workers or bickering
among the Young Democrats or bickering among the delegates at our conventions.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2 (extract)
And all that time though, all those years I was watching politics. When Len Small ran for
governor . . . I think Big Bill Thompson from Chicago - did he run against Small one
time? He come down the Mississippi, they come down the Illinois and I went up to Grafton
and got on the boat. They come down by boat, and they let people on. I hitched a ride
down from Grafton to Alton on that boat. You couldn't go see the dignitaries, you'd just
have to, well, stay in your place. I recall that. I was voting then so that - no I wasn't
voting, I wasn't old enough to vote.
But that's what drew me to politics, just a - oh, I recall, when I was just barely out of
high school, there was a man by the name of - I was going to refer to the Hoover and
A1 Smith election, the primary of that year, the Republican primary of that year. Had a
rally down at the Alton city hall. And I went to it, and I don't think there were ten
people. There was a man by the name of Malone, or something like that, that was a great
advocate of sales tax. And think, hell, they didn't have sales tax till the Horner administration
eight years later, but he was talking about that as a way to - of course I don't recall
whether they had the - I guess they had the income tax then if you made enough money.
But I remember that, that's left a memory. And I can recall people saying to me, "What
were you doing here, Leland," they'd say, or "Kennedy," and you could see they'd take notice
of you, that you must like politics, you'd be there. And that's one instance that has stuck
in my memory well. And of course in the Smith and Hoover campaign, why, there was
always some religious discussion there, nothing ugly, but there was always that.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 (extract)
A: I can remember when - I think it was in the fight Horner had in 1934 or 1936, he had
primary opposition by the Chicago machine by a man by the name of Bundesen. Now what
year that was - I think it was - it had to be 1936. There was a fight on for the state
senator here in this district that was, oh - Jim Monroe was running for reelection and he
had some primary opposition. And of course Jim Monroe was the organization
candidate. Well I remember my dad telling me, he said, "Well you ought to go with the
organization." He said his dad always did. Well it was then back a hundred years
ago. (chuckles) But I was an organization man and I remember going to meetings and
hearing speakers and meeting people and so by the time I was - that was either in 1934
or 1936.
SESSION 1, TAPE I, SIDE 2 (EXTRACT)
A: But, well out here in Godfrey - I'm going to speak as a Democrat now - Godfrey is
a Republican township. I never ran for the General Assembly since I've been out here. I
ran for committeeman and got elected. You get some Democratic votes, but in my district

the Democratic party was the majority party, and you had to get your votes in the primary
and get nominated because they weren't - that's under the old system when you had the
minority representation. You don't have that anymore now. This is the first year without
it. This is what you'd call a safe district for a Democrat. You had one Republican and two
Democrats. Now it used to not be that way. When I was growing up it wasn't that way. It
was just the opposite.
Q: Oh?
A: And that change started I guess after the Hoover years. And I don't think Horner got
elected to governor until 1932, but you could see the change start in 1930, at least I could
see it. And why it was, I guess the Roosevelt and the Seltzer programs attracted thc attention
of the voters, and his fireside chats.
It's interesting, in 1928, the Hoover and Smith campaign - 1 think Smith carried . .
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 (extract)
A: Smith - I'm not going to talk about Cook County now because I wouldn't know about
that. I think Smith carried four or five counties and if you would look they were where
breweries were because Smith was a wet candidate. 1 think he carried - well I think he
carried Macoupin County. There wasn't any brewery there, but he carried St. Clair County
1 believe. There was a brewery here, a Bluff City brewery, but I don't believe he carried
Madison County. I'm not sure hut there's records out of that stuff sixty years ago I guess,
fifty-five years ago, that would show that he carried Macoupin but he carried wet counties.
What I'm trying to say is that with the emergence of the Roosevelt era, and the party that
I belonged to, you could see it happen. That goes hack to my high school days and my Shell
days and my political start. Social programs were important to the people at that time.
It's like you'll hear a lot of talk about social security. I think social security started in
1936. Well just to give you one idea, my dad was sixty-five. Now he didn't get to go on
that, but he died within eighteen months. He was dead sixteen months later so it didn't
matter. But they didn't even get to sign up. I know how disappointed he was. My dad
had a very responsible job at one time and when the glassworks merged back in the early
1920's' why, he lost his job. Thc Owens people came in and they took over. Well that was
part of it and there were a number of people who were terminated and my dad was one
of them. And he was a man in his fifties then I guess. And it upset him and he never
had any pension rights. Of course the people who had pension rights in those days, there
weren't too many of them I don't imagine.
Q: I wonder if we could drop back to that Young Democratic movement. How did you get
involved with that organization? Do you remember . . .
A: Well just - it was just, as I mentioned, I guess every day that you've been here, that
my involvement with politics I guess came by second nature. I told you that as I was growing
up in those days in Alton I attended the ward meetings for political candidates. I wasn't
old enough to vote then. I was just becoming old enough to vote. It started maybe when
I was in St. Patrick's and Old Cathedral. I just seemed to have a knack for politics, not
so much for debating in school, although I did debate in school. And I guess older people
impress you.
Well they organized the Young Democratic Club over in Edwardsville and they had an Alton
chapter and you just went to it and signed up and joined and became as active as your
personality would let you become, and if they were going to - say they had a convention

in Edwardsville, and you had to pay your own way, and there was ten guys that wanted
to be delegates from Alton - I don't think we had any female members, we could have,
I don't recall that. Not that we ostracized, maybe they weren't as active then as they are
now.
And I was a delegate to one of the conventions and I just liked politics and I didn't run
for committeeman for ten years but I was always active. I was always working for some
candidate for free or - I remember, hell, one candidate gave me two dollars and a half
one time to work a precinct for him. I had to pass out cards. That was back in some city
race in the mid-1930's.
Now it wasn't in thc general election, but I just was proud to vote
and my mother would work in the polls and that was a big thing and I was a Democrat,
and she was a Democratic clerk or a judge - not too often, but maybe half a dozen times
in her life. And she liked that. And I mentioned my grandfather had been in politics and
my dad died in 1937 so he saw me getting started. He never got to see me get elected to
any state or federal office but - or city office.
But the Young Democrats was an active organization and I don't know whether they've got
a Young Democratic organization anymore. When I was starting, I think there might have
been maybe a little over a hundred precincts in the county. And a precinct committeeman,
always to me, was the chief Democrat in that precinct. I mean he got elected and he
appointed a precinct committeewoman. And the Madison County Democratic precinct committeeman,
and precinct committeewoman, organizations have always been active. They're
active today. They were the dominant party and they helped make it the dominant
party. They worked their polls, they took people to the vote that had to have a ride to the
polls. Some women worked their precincts better.
I remember - these are things that you hear - one of the committeewomen was telling
my wife she had to give a woman a douche to get her to go to the poll, and things like
that. (laughter) And that really happened. Just you know, amusing things. Now that
didn't happen to me as a Young Democrat, but just those things.
The Young Democratic organization was a potent political organization in the 1930's.
SESSION 3, TAPE 6, SIDE 1 (extract)
Q: What do you remember about the Edwardsville convention that you attended in 1932?
A: Well I remember they elected a man by the name of Powell and he later dropped out
of politics. Of course that was the height of the Depression. A lot of people thought they
could get jobs. Some guys got jobs.
Now there was two theaters on the Main Street of Edwardsville. I think therc was a Lux
Theater and the Wilder Theater, and I believe our first convention was held in the Lux Theater
and of course the county elected officials would attend that. I believe in the election
of 1930 we elected a sheriff, an off-year, wrested the office of sheriff from the Republicans,
and the office of county treasurer. Of course the office of county clerk seems like it's been
in the Hutch family far - or the present incumbent, her cousin or old-time friend. And
they would appear and there'd be coffee and donuts and soda water and singing. And I
guess maybe if there was any drinking I don't know about that. That drinking problem
never bothered me. But you'd frolic and have a good time and get to meet the fellows. 1
always tried to sit up front so I'd hear what was going on and . . .
Q: Do you remember any of the individuals that you met at that . . .
A: Well, I mentioned Ed Pyle. Thcre was - see, having grown up in Alton and living in
Upper Alton and going to school in North Hall, I knew a lot of people. I had that advantage

ecause I was from one section of town and going to the other section of town to
school. And names - oh, I met one fellow that I want - oh, I'm glad you brought that
up - by the name of Donald McLain, who's still in politics. He was in my wedding
party. He became a fast political friend plus a personal friend. I think the first time he
voted - I was born in 1908 so I was old enough to vote in 1929 and I think I'm two years
his senior. And his father was born in Dublin, Ireland, by the way, and his mother was
of German descent like my mother. And the first time hc voted, he voted for himself in
the Edwardsville city election as alderman. He got elected. I think he ran for one city office
one time. He's been a member of the city council for a long time, or was a member, he's
not anymore. But he's on the county board. He's been a long-time member. Ile lives in
Edwardsville. He's raised six children and must have twenty grandchildren and some greatgrandchildren
I guess. And I met him.
And of course Peter Fitzgerald was the new sheriff', and Simon Ilenry was the treasurer,
I helieve, and at that time they couldn't succeed themselves, and I think in the 1934 election,
they reversed it. One ran for one job and the other for the other and they were
elected. Now I'm not wrong on the names, but I could be wrong - either Henry was the
sheriff or Fitzgerald was the sheriff and the other one was the treasurer. And Bill Burton
and, oh, there was a man that was state's attorney there, Luke Geers was a statc's attorney.
And I had Republican acquaintances. I had a Republican acquaintance by the name of Jesse
R. Brown who was a state's attorney, Republican state's attorney, and a good politician. T've
done this all of my life, I don't say this vainly, I've always talked with people who I thought
were smarter than I was. It's like I think I'm getting smarter by talking to you. (chuckles)
Q: Well thanks sir.
A: Well I have in my - of course this was beyond the 1930's - I have in my clientele of
political friends a number of judges who I always used to dine with when I'd go to diuerent
cities campaigning. I'd always go out to lunch with thcm, even in Bond County. Bond
County in the first eight years was in my district. And I just made that a habit, because
I could learn something from them, and they could maybe learn from me what was going
on in Springfield, or maybe what a cigarette vendor thought and things like that. (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir
A: The formation of the Young Democrats though in the 1930's was the formation of my
political career, if 1 can say that as a fact, and I say it as a fact. I say it in modesty though
that I was just active. I just liked it.
Q: What about in 1932. Did the Young Democrats actively support Horner for governor in
that year? Or do you know?
A: Oh I'm sure they did. Oh I'm sure they did. There was a man by the name of Campbell
from East St. Louis that was a candidate for governor in 1932 against Horner. I imagine
there was more than two. There might have been several, because it looked like we could
win the gubernatorial race. I mean Emmerson may have been the governor in 1928, or was
he just secretary of state?
Q: No I think he was governor.
A: Well alright then. Of course he got elected in the Hoover landslide and Horner got
elected in the Roosevelt landslide four years later. And the 1928 election, of course that
was A1 Smith's big bid for the presidency and I think Governor Smith should have come
through Alton. I mention that name McLain, but I think Smith died when I was overseas
and McLain sent me a letter telling me about it because we were naturally Roman Catholics

- and we were for Smith, and fighting for him I guess. Not fighting physically, hut just
arguing for him, and didn't think he could win.
I think that Horner had the Kelly-Nash machine support. I use the word machine, it might
be a bad name, it's an organization. They refer to the Madison County machine, but it's
really an organization. If they want to call it a machine, they can call it that 1
guess. (chuckles) Where it gets its grease I don't know, if it has wheels.
I'm sure that in the 1932 primary a man by the name of Campbell from East St. Louis and
of course Henry Horner and I don't know whether John Stelle - I'm sure hc was active
then - was a candidate that time or not. Was he Horner's lieutenant governor for eight
years?
Q: I don't know who was that first term. I know he was the second term.
A: Second term, and he broke with him. I think he - did I-Iorner die?
Q: Yes.
A: And Stelle was governor for one hundred days, didn't they say'! (chuckles)
Q: Right.
A: Well the guy that I beat, Mr. Glazebrook, was a Stelle supporter.
Q: Well.
A: He had a right to be. I guess Paul Powell was in the assembly then and everybody who's
ever served in the assembly knows Paul Powell.
Q: I believe he started in 1934 didn't he?
A: Oh I think Curley Harris started at the same time, that's how they met. Curley Harris
was a colleague of mine for years. He was defeated once in the November election but he
had six terms in when I went to Sprinfield I believe, maybe seven, I don't know. 11e served
longer than I did. But he was retired in the 1960's. Of course Curley died about five or
six years ago.
I didn't want any job at that time. 1 didn't want a political job. I guess if they'd have
offered me a code department directorship I would have taken it. But they weren't going
to.
Back in the 1930's I'd go and visit the officials, visit Mclain. We'd go down and go into
different county office holders and visit and make the rounds, and talked about gctting
appointments on commissions and things like that. One judge said, "Well you ought to run
for something." And I said, "You're talking to the right man." (chuckles)
Q: Well.
A: And run I did, maybe not that next day.
Didn't Green beat Stelle for governor in 1940? Sure because Green was governor my first
term. He was a very hospitable man, he always cntertaincd the legislature you know oncc
each session. In fact I guess when you pick up pictures from me I've got a picture my first
term there that Green had taken of all the Democratic war veterans, Choate and Shapiro
and I, and Clyde Lee's on it. And a man by the name of Considine and a man by the name
of Schaefer. Now they're both dead, but I notice - I got a list of the candidates from the

election board the other day - I notice there's a Considine running for the legislature up
in - north someplace - whether it's his boy or grandson I wouldn't know. But Considine
died pretty young and Schaefer - oh, he serves in and out. He's clerk of the house
sometimes. Rut he's dead, but Lee's still alive as you well know. And Shapiro and Choate
and Kennedy are still alive - if I'm not alive I'm in a hell of a shape.
And I think thc Young Lkmocratic organization was the key to my political aspirations. But
I wanted to run. I mean I think you have to want to run. Just like we had a three-way
race for state's attorney here in our county and . . .
(taping stopped for telephone conversation, then resumed)
A: I was talking about we had a three-way race for Democratic nomination for state's attorney
here in the spring of 1980. The incumbent was running. He's a judgc now. And I can't
think of his name. But the other two fellows were Allen and Bill Hayne. Well of course
thc incumbent wanted to run - but Hayne wants to he state's attorney and I'm sure he'll
run again, and Allen wants to be state's attorney. Allen was assistant state's attorney
undcr Mudge for eight years. And they want thc job. And I think that's a criterion for
being a good candidate, if you want the job. And if you don't want to he an alderman or
a precinct conlrnitteeman or state representative you shouldn't run for it. And if you don't
think you've got a chance, and don't intend to work, you shouldn't run for anything. But
if you go to the trouble to get your petitions filled out - and it takes several hundred names
- you ought to have several sets - if I have to sign the statement of loyalty and all of
that - if you go to all of that troublc, you - I wouldn't just file it and go home and stay
home 1 mean.
Q: I see. Why didn't you get started earlier then sir? You really got activc in about 1932
and then it wasn't until in the 1940's . . .
A: Well why didn't I get started earlier and why didn't I run for office? 1 guess I can't answer
that. J oftcn wonder why I didn't either. I guess I never had the nerve.
Q: Oh?
A: That's a good question. I've been asked that before. I don't know why. I guess I
figured I couldn't win. I think one thing that led to that - that particular statement I
made to you about a judge telling me - therc was an appointment up for thc jury
commission. And the jury commission's still active. I think it has two of the majority
party and one of the minority party. And I think at that time it paid six bits a month,
which was good money in the 1930's. There was a number of people for it, and the joh was
going to go to Alton, and it went to Alton, and it went to a man by the name of Roy Geltz,
who was a political contemporary of mine, and he knew I was after it, and I knew he was
after it, but he had more pull than I had, I guess, I don't know. And I think I showed
some disappointment and he said, "Kennedy, what you ought to do, you ought to run for
something." So run I did. I think that's the original - why I didn't start earlier I don't
know. I can't answer that.
Q: Well let's see, you ran for committeeman in 1940. Is that when you first . . .
A: Right. I said, "I'm going to run," and I ran for committeeman. In 1940, well Lauer was
aspiring to he county chairman, John Lauer, he's passed away in the last six months, some
time in this year. He was a political advisor of mine, he was a committeeman, he was head
of the Alton city committee. And Lauer just thought it would be a good idea for me to run
for committeeman and run I did.
Nobody drafted me for anything in my life. I never was drafted. I don't think you're
drafted. You might be drafted, but you're kidding yourself if you're drafted and don't

work. I never was drafted for nothing, except for the army. Rut at that time no one had
to ask me to run. I just decided to run.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1 SIDE 1 (extract)
A: I know in 1940 I took out my petitions to run for precinct committeeman. And the
incumbent Democratic committeeman was a man by the name of Otto Glazebrook. And I
got my petitions filled and that was the Nineteenth Precinct in Alton. I know T went house
to house. Of course you can't see everybody, people are always gone. I was working a shift
for Shell, I worked shift work. I was an operating engineer. And I'd get up and go out
at nights and campaign maybe at eight o'clock and then I'd get up and do a little work when
I was on the four to twelve shift, hut on the night shift, on what some people call the graveyard
shift, I would go out until eight or nine o'clock, and 1 won, and I won fairly good. I
don't mean that vainly. I won fairly good, and that was in 1940.
SESSION 4, TAPE 7, SIDE 1
Q: This article was in what - in the Alton Telegraph?
A: In the Alton evening Telegraph last night, yes.
Q: Well, and it says, "The governor, Franklin D. Roosevelt, of New York, Democratic nominee
for president of the United States was scheduled to be in Alton on October 21." They
planned a rally. Did they hold the rally then?
A: Yes they held a rally. I didn't get to the rally but I got to go down to St. Louis to the
meeting. It says there that, if you'll read on, several Democrats would attend, "which many
Alton Democrats would attend." Of course we were Young Democrats at that time.
Q: Yes.
A: And we went down and I - I think a bunch went down on the interurban. 1 can't recall
where it was. It had to be at the coliseum downtown because we went down on the - well
I call it the interurban. You mentioned McKinley. They owned it. I happened to see that
last night and I thought it would be of some interest.
Q: Do you remember seeing him at that rally?
A: Oh yes.
Q: Did you get a chance to shake hands?
A: Oh no no. I never shook hands with President Roosevelt. But I shook hands with Jim
Farley.
Q: Oh you did?
A: Later.
Q: Was it at that time or was it later?
A: No not at that time. And - oh, later years, I was a delegate or appointed alternate
delegate to the convention in 1948 or 1952 when it was in Chicago. It's been in Chicago
several times.

Q: Yes.
A: But we had quite an active Democrat here by the name of - up in Jersey County -
by the name of Joe Knight. And he was a fundraiser I believe nationwide. I think Joe later
on had some problems. But at that time he was well thought of and he took me back on
the platform and I think it was out at the stockyards at that time.
Q: Oh?
A: In Chicago, the convention was. I didn't know Chicago that well. I was in the General
Assembly though. It was in my second or third . . .
Q: It was at the International Amphitheater, did they call it? there at the . . .
A: 1 think so yes, I think so yes. And of course it was hard to get seats then. It was -
well, one of those conventions to nominate Stevenson. I believe it was the first one. The
Truman convention was in Philadelphia, but it was in 1952, the first convention they nominated
Governor Stevenson, that's when it was.
Q: For president?
A: Yes for president yes. And I got to shake hands with Jim Farley. Of course that was
a big thrill for me. Speaking of President Roosevelt, I was injured in the service. You got
to come home and I went to a hospital out in Spokane, Washington.
Q: Yes.
A: And I forget the name of that place, but I got my first furlough - they called it a convalescent
furlough and when Roosevelt died - I think he died April 11, 1945, I believe that's
the correct date because he was elected in 1944 for the fourth term and inaugurated in January
of, I believe, 1945, and he died that day - there was several of us coming east from
Spokane, Washington. We picked up an airplane out there some place in that general area
of Spokane at some air force base. You got to fly free. You had to take several hops, one
to Billings, North Dakota. But Roosevelt died that day and I just was mentioning that I
guess because you're thinking about Ress Truman dying. I know you read about that of
course.
Q: Yes.
A: And how Harry Truman succeeded him. And those were momentous days at that time,
and I guess every day's momentous in the world now. (chuckles) The world's turning.
Q: Yes sir.
A: I think you mentioned before you left the last time that you wanted me to - and I don't
know if I was right or not - you said you wanted me to find out about my
grandparents. Did you say that? Did you mention that to me?
Q: Well let's see now - we went through your grandparents, the ones that lived in
Edwardsville?
A: Yes they all lived - but my maternal grandparents, my paternal grandparents were born
in Ireland in Roscommon County, but I never did know where my maternal grandparents
were, and I found out that they came from Ruett,, Germany, not Ruhr, but R-U-E-T-T,
Germany, somewhere up near the Austrian border. My mother had seven sisters and one
brother so she came from a large family and they produt:ed over twenty of the third generation,
I guess you may say, and several of my cousins have been over there. They were

more German than I was I guess. (laughter) I went to Ireland. But I did never go -
I was in Germany as a soldier, but they've been - I talked to one cousin of mine since
you left. Her first husband died. He was in the shoe business in Decatur, but I got ahold
of her. She's still there. She's remarried to a man by the name of McDermott. But she's
been to Ruett, Germany.
Q: Did she find a record there?
A: Yes. Well I don't know whether she found any records. She found that the only thing
that we didn't quite agree on was that - she thought that Grandpa and Grandma Herwick
met on a boat coming over here but I questioned the correctness of that because I thought
they came over as children, but they may not have. Of course they could have been on the
boat as children too as far as that goes. But my paternal grandparents came over at different
times, both at eight or nine or ten or something like that. I had that somewhere in
the records.
Q: Yes. Well good. So you located the . . .
A: Yes. I located that, yes, yes.
Q: And you say that's near Austria?
A: Near the Austrian border, at least that's what Mrs. McDermott said. I assume that she's
correct yes.
Q: Do you remember any of your grandparents talking about that part of Germany'!
A: No. No. My Grandma Herwick, my mother's mother is the only grandparent I knew,
and she talked German and my mother talked German and I remember her, oh, quite
well. She probably didn't die until I was eight or nine I guess but I don't ever recall her
talking about the old country. We referred to it that way. But my mother's sisters, a
number of them died fairly young. One of them died at childbirth, and of course Uncle
Henry, he left then, left and went somewhere else and we never heard from him. But I
mentioned another one of my mother's sisters married a fireman in St. Louis, Worminghouse
was their name, so that's quite German. Worminghouse and Herwick, that was a good
match.
Q: Yes.
A: But he was in the firehouse with - he got killed in a - of course I guess they wcre
horse-drawn vehicles in those days. He got killed and left a family of six. He died quite
young. But one thing I remember him saying was that one of his firehouse mates was the
late Cardinal Cody's father.
Q: Oh?
A: And I believe that Cody did come from St. Louis, Cardinal Cody. I think that's
true. They did say that Cardinal Cody's father was a brother fireman. I don't know how
close they were or anything like that. That's just family history.
Q: Now this is Cardinal Cody from Chicago was it?
A: Yes, the one that died. He came from St. Louis and his father was a fireman and my
uncle - hell, I don't know what his name was. IIis name was Bill, Bill
Worminghouse. They were in the same firehouse together.
Q: Well. Did you get to know that uncle at all?

A: No. I knew them. They used to come to Alton or we'd go to Edwardsville. We used
to go to Edwardsville on the interurban and you'd have to change down at Mitchell. I guess
the oldest uncle I knew - well I knew Uncle Otto Ziegler, he was married to my mother's
sister. TJncle Gordon Buckles, he was married to one of my dad's sisters. And she was
Mrs. McDermott's mother, and I knew him very well because he was in the transfer business
in Edwardsville. And I recall when I got back in politics in 1962 they were all rabid
Republicans. I needed to win the Democratic primary is what I needed to win, and they
all voted the Democratic primary for me, they all helped me. I didn't win by a whole lot,
but I won. (laughter)
Q: Switched over for you, huh? Well I'll be darned. Well.
A: That's right. (laughter) So I got one thing good that time, the famous bullet from those
people. I always ran well in Edwardsville because my dad was from there. He had a
number of relatives. Rut they were all Democrats of course.
Q: Yes.
A: Because his dad had been in politics but his dad died quite young. I didn't know my
father's parents at all but he died when he was in his forties. But he was a Democratic
politician and in those days, why, they just had a one-year term and of course when I was
just starting, why, the local offices were just two-year terms at that timc you know, at least
down in here they were. I don't know about anyplace else.
Q: Do you mean the alderman positions?
A: The alderman and things like that were - the mayor and oh, the assessor and the city
clerk. Thc county offices I think later on were four years of course, but at that timc, why,
the sheriff couldn't succeed himself you know, and of course the Constitution changed that,
or they changed that by legislation where they can succeed themselves, but . . .
Q: Well let's see now, you ran for alderman in 1939 was it?
A: In 1941. T ran for committeeman in 1940.
Q: I see, yes.
A: I ran for alderman in 1941. And of course the war came and I was drafted and I didn't
resign and I got reelected alderman when I was in service while I was out at that hospital.
When I came home to get sworn in, I happened to be on a leave about that time I'm mentioning
to you. The election was late that year. I got sworn in after a week or ten days after
I came home.
Q: Well let's see now. What about the period before you went off to World War I1 in the
alderman position.
A: I got elected committeeman and I just felt like I could win for alderman. There was an
opening there. The incumbent wasn't running. We had two aldermen from each ward. The
other alderman, we were renting off of him, but I don't think it had any bearing. I had
been around the ward and as I said carried papers and played uptown as a kid and had
some acquaintances with the Upper Alton people as just - well there was a Kerr Drugstore
up there that 1 used to go into to shoot the breeze. And I knew Gordon Kerr and I knew
his dad. Gordon Kerr is a man my age. And his brother Gale. I used to stop in thcrc.
And I just decided to run for alderman. No one cndorsed me. You've got to take out your
petition and run and work. I made a canvass and I sent out those postal cards and 1 ran
a good race. And I say that modestly.

Of course there were war clouds hanging over the country at that time and in 1941, why,
I remember Alton, the city of Alton, is nonpartisan, but there were a number of Democratic
committeemen on the Alton city council. At that time we had seven wards. And I lived
in the Seventh Ward and the incumbent, the Seventh Ward alderman, was a man - they
had two. Well this would be - this is kind of interesting. One of the aldermen was George
Shane, who lived on the other side of our double house. He was the owner of the house.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: He wasn't up. He had two years yet to serve. It was a four-year term but a man by
the name of MacPhearson was retiring so I just decided to run. Well of course some guys
said, "Hell, they ain't going to have two aldermen in one house." Well that was - if they're
going to use it, they're going to use it.
But the Seventh Ward at that time had four precincts. I lived in the Nineteenth. They had
the Nineteenth, Twentieth, Twenty-first, and Twenty-second. The Twenty-second Precinct
was the precinct that was called the silk stocking precinct. Maybe it was up at Western
Military Academy and Shurtleff College and hack near the railroad station, and near what
was the railroad station at that time was the cutoff. But there was all middle class. Well
I was - if I'm allowed to say it - 1 was a Catholic, and "Hell, they aren't going to elect
a Catholic in Upper Alton anymore than they're going to elect a Protestant in North
Alton." Of course that didn't bother me and I think I went to every house I could and that
was in April of 1941 and I only had one person ever ask me what church I went to.
Now my dad died in 1936 so he wasn't here to see me commence my political career, but
my mother was. She was a German Protestant. She didn't become a Catholic until her
deathbed. But she and a lady by the name of Mrs. Hoppe had what they called the Billikan
Club, and most of those people lived in Upper Alton, and she'd get ahold of me and my
mom - we went to every church dinner they had. They used to have a lot of church dinners
you know, and Upper Alton has a number of Protestant churches. And I say that
respectfully. And we went to all of them.
I'd go out every day and every night and send a little - at that time we had penny postal
cards, and I'd send out a little penny postal card that would remind the people of my visit
to them and I was still a candidate for alderman. There was two other men running, a
man by the name of McHutchinson, who was a Republican precinct committeeman, and
another man by the name of Robbison who was a native of Upper Alton. They were both
nice people.
And I worked, and I won. It was kind of an upset victory. I won pretty good, and I don't
say that - I mean I won with some to spare.
Talking about that precinct up there, that Twenty-second Precinct, they said, "Well,
Kennedy, you'll get beat there bad." I remember I carried it by fifteen votes. I could go
home and I'd take each street, write down the people's name and just figured how many
people were going to vote for me for alderman, and I estimated I could win it on nine hundred
votes. And I think I got nine hundred and thirty. And I carried that precinct by -
that silk stocking precinct I guess you could call it - by fifteen votes as I said. I lost the
precinct in the upper end where there - oh, there were a number of black people but I
only lost it by fifty votes. And the man who ran in second, he was a Republican committeeman
down in the business district, and he carried his own precinct maybe by, oh, around
a hundred votes. But down in the old Nineteenth where I was born and raised in that area
and carried papers and knew everybody and hoped that they knew me well and knew my
family, why, I carried it by - oh, I got a tremendous vote there. 1 must have carried it
over my closest man by around two hundred votes.
Q: What types of things occurred at that time?

A: Well, we had one big hassle, it was citywide, and I guess it might have been
countywide. It made me quite unpopular with some of the police and firemen. Tt seems
like that the General Assembly set up a minimum wage some time in the late 1930's for
police and firemen in cities maybe thirty-five to fifty thousand, you know, how they grade
- twenty to thirty, and thirty to forty, and forty to fifty. Like Alton was a hundred and
thirty-five dollars a month they werc getting at that time, and the city never had the money
to pay them the additional forty. So that went on for several years.
It had started before I was swore in, I was swore in in April 1941, and we passed an ordinance
in the city council that we would float a bond issue to pay the firemen and the policemen
their back pay. I don't recall the amount, maybe it was a hundred and forty thousand
dollars, or it might have been greater. But the firemen and the policemen were anxious, each
one had maybe two years back pay coming. And maybe five hundred dollars a year, a thousand
dollars, why, that's quite a bit of money. It was a lot of money in those times
anyway. But the city council by ordinance - it was a close vote, we had fourteen aldermen,
seven wards, two men from a ward - voted to issue bonds without competitive bidding.
Q: Oh?
A: And - well I thought it was unfair and there was an alderman by thc name of Roy
Geltx who thought it was unfair, and we might have been the only two people that opposed
it, and we made several objections to it in the council. And it fell on dead ears. And then
we went to St. Louis, Geltz and I did, on our own to a bonding firm down there to see what
they could sell those bonds for at competitive bidding. I think the firm's name was Charles
and Tronic - I don't remember their business. Some of the local people who felt that the
bonds should be competitive suggested we go see Chapman and Cutler in Chicago. So we
went up there, we went up and back in maybe - overnight, that's all. But there was quite
a bit of publicity generated about it. And they didn't sell the bonds in competitive bidding,
but they sold them at the same rate of interest they would have paid if some bonding firm
of the stature of Charles and Tronic or Chapman and Cutler would have bought them.
Q: I see.
A: And I got a lot of favorable publicity on it. So did Roy Geltz. We hoth receivcd editorials
in the paper. And by that time of course the war was going on and before my even two
years was up I guess - maybe two and a half years - why, I was going in the service
like everybody else was going. So I just got drafted and went too, that's all.
My mother was a widow. I worked out at Shell, I could probably have got another six-month
deferrment, hut I thought, "Hell, what's the use, let's go." So I went in the service and . . .
Q: Well let's see - you - did you run again in the spring of 1943 then before you went
in service?
A: Well that was the first year that the alderman, I believe, were four-year terms. They
went to four-year terms either that time or the time before. I believe that was the time
they went to four-year terms. So I didn't have to run for the two . . .
Q: So you were in the middle of a term?
A: We had two aldermen in each ward. No, I'll tell you what happened, il was the term
before when they voted to go to four-year terms, they had some lap-over so they had a drawing
you know. Some guys drew four-year terms and some drew two-year terms. But when
I ran the first time in 1941 it was a four-year term so I didn't have to run in 1943. But
I did run in 1945. They got my petitiions filled out and sent, them to me to sign.
Q: Well now during your first term how often did the board meet?

A: Twice a month.
Q: Twice a month?
A: Twice a month. Of course I was on the finance committee. I think the finance committee
had seven men, and each ward had a member of the finance committee, and the senior one
over me in my ward was George Shane, but he was chairman of the ordinance committee
maybe, or something like that, and he didn't want to serve on the finance committee, because
he just had enough to do, that's all. And I was on the finance committee. Of course there
was seven wards and the finance committee was made up of one person from each ward. Oh,
I think that all of those things have changed now down there now.
Q: Well this bond issue situation that came up. You got involved because you were on the
finance committee, was that . . .
A: No, I wouldn't think so. Maybe that had something to do with it, but it seemed so unfair
not to sell them with competitive bidding. And evidently the Telegraph had an editorial
or two on it, and was critical of it. They weren't critical of paying the firemen and the
policemen their back pay, but they were critical of the way the money was being saved. And
I knew people in the financial world that I had talked to, and so did Geltz, and we knew
people on the streets, merchants and individual citizens, taxpayers all you know, and just
thought they ought to be saved.
It was quite a public issue because the police and firemen had been pressing the city to pay
them. Rightfully so, they owed it to them, and they had it coming, and we never had the
money to pay them. Our corporation counselor at that time was a man by the name of Carl
Hoelkmann, and I think he has two boys that are attorneys in Alton now, and he was a
good attorney. And he and the mayor, the mayor was Leo Struif, and they just thought
the best way to do it was just sell them and get the debt off of their mind.
And I think they might have saved by the competitive bidding. They didn't have competitive
bidding as I mentioned. But they eventually sold them at what they - they wanted to sell
them to one of the local banks I guess or something like that, but they were sold at a price
that would have been the same had they been in competitive bidding and Geltz and I always
got credit for that.
Q: Well now, Mr. Geltz and you, were you kind of a Young Turk faction against the Old
Guard or something at the . . .
A: Well we might have been Young Turks. We were friends, political and personal friends,
but not from boyhood. Just met in politics and there was - well, Geltz was a Turk all
of his life. He stayed in the council thirty years. I don't say that unkindly. He's a brilliant
man, Geltz was a brilliant man, and he was Jesuit-trained, and never did run for any
county office or any citywide office. Oh he might have ran for a county office one time, I'm
not sure about that, but he was a brilliant man and his aldermanic career was just - he
was a disturber I guess. (chuckles)
He started in 1939 and I started in 1941 and I went on to the assembly and alderman for
Geltz. He was a Democratic committeeman I think at that time too.
But that bond issue was probably the most interesting thing that happened in my tenure
as an alderman. We got a lot of publicity out of that. And Mr. Crowsley, the senior
Crowsley, when I decided to run for the General Assembly, he always was very kind to
me. In fact the Telegraph was always kind to me. Because I was a local boy I guess. And
maybe he respected me and I always kept in touch with him on anything that was going
to happen in Springfield and things like that. Even when I left and came back I went down

and talked to them before I got back in and told them what my plans were and they editorialized
me in that big 1962 primary, which was deeply appreciated. And young Paul - we
called him young Paul, he's a man my age - he's still active in the paper. They've had
their problems. Oh, I think they had several lawsuits against them, but I suppose they'll
be able to survive.
Q: Well now, you had this bond issue. Were there other issues that came up before you
left for the war with the . . .
A: Oh there were local issues, none that I recall that caused as much - oh, the street
sweeper! (laughs)
Q: Oh?
A: I wasn't involved with that too much, but some people thought it was a waste of
money. I know Geltz and I might have been on the outsides then. He was violently opposed
to it. But oh, it caused quite a bit of controversy. They finally bought it though, and maybe
Geltz might have eventually voted for it.
But there was one thing that, since you mentioned it, that - and you pass it when you
go down the River Road, not from Grafton to here, hut further down - the Alton waterworks
I think belongs to American Water Company. Oh, scveral overzealous people, citizens
I guess - and there was a movement on to buy the Alton Water Company. And now that's
been fifty years ago, and they haven't bought it yet. Their mains were old, they were old
then. I don't know whether they've changed their mains, they're still operating, and I think
they do a pretty good job quite frankly. But it generated some flak, but it never went
through. 1 was neither for or against it. I guess I would have been for it, but the condition
of the company at that time - it's still in the same place - was somewhat dubious to me. I
didn't know just how structurally strong they were. I'm sure they were financially
strong. I wouldn't dare say they weren't. But I helieve the fact that it's a privately-owned
company is alright. And that we get the water out here in Godfrey from them. Of course
I'm closer to it now than I was in Upper Alton.
There was four hundred dollars a ward ward money. Thcy each had two hundred dollars
to spend on alleys and cleaning alleys or cleaning the gutters in the alley. You could go
to your street superintendent and he had a crew. He was required to do so much work,
but you could get some extra cleaning done with your own ward money.
And, oh, things were pretty quiet, I guess, and then just before the war broke out, or when
it was breaking out, I think people were just trying to make a living and get by. 1 used
to go through my ward every Saturday, the Seventh Ward, and I used to walk it. Of course
the people - I lived in the Nineteenth - the people down there, you'd have calls. There
was the Upper Alton business district. It's a little different now. It's not any different
geographywise, but it's different - well it's changed some, on account of shopping
centers. You should go through there and walk through your ward and through the alleys
and you would spend your ward money and there was controversies and . . .
Q: What kind of controversy, do you mean one neighbor against another or something?
A: Well no, not - well you had that too. (laughter) But that never got to the council
floor. I've talked to Alderman Timrnermaire, he succeeded me. He's been in the council since
I left. He's up again this spring. He's not too much younger than I am. And there used
to be a lady down there that - she just - well, she'd just raise hell just for raising hell
you know. And I asked him onc time about her. I'd see him occasionally. And he said,
"She's still doing it but . . ."

There was neighbor against neighbor there. You had that. But you had the cop on the
beat and - the biggest controversy though, that stirred up the most flak, was the way they
handled the bond issue. It finally was resolved and the police and firemen got their pay.
Oh, one thing that came up that was quite controversial, and it became distasteful to me. In
my closing year we elected Mr. Wadlow mayor, and he appointed a man as the fire
chief. And he couldn't get him confirmed. And I was with the faction that was against
confirmation. And he got accused of personalities and, oh, all things like that. You'd have
people call you, and I can't recall the man's name now. He just wasn't acceptable, not from
a personal standpoint, from his talent as a fireman. There was, oh, there was several
reasons given for his appointment, but they didn't prove out. And Mayor Wadlow changed
his mind and appointed a man by the name of Jim Lewis. And Jim Lewis turned out to
he probably the best fire chief Alton ever had. He passed away, Jim did, with a brain
tumor. He must have served, oh, I guess that would be about forty - that was 1945 when
they got appointed, and he served quite a number of years.
Q: Were you active in getting him . . .
A: Well no, I didn't pick him. I was active in getting him confirmed though. I knew
him. But he was a fireman. He was a captain of the fire department, but he had one remarkable
trait, at least I thought that he - I saw it as an alderman. Of course when I
left the city council, I left it period.
Q: I see. (chuckles)
A: Each shift had a captain. In those days they worked twenty-four on and twenty-four
off and there were only three houses. Alton hadn't annexed Wood River Township
yet. And well there were six captains. And if he'd have a captain that wasn't performing
his duty, instead of bawling - he'd work with him. And he'd make him. I know there
was several captains he made. 1 don't recall their names, but I mean he just - they might
have been not weak, but needed some . . .
Q: Training.
A: . . . training and supervision. And giving them some recommendations, making suggestions
to them, and things like that. He was a brilliant man. Of course most firemen take
their pension at fifty, and Jim died before he got to his pension time, but 1 imagine industry
would have picked him up as a fire and safety man, hecause I'll tell you he was a born
fireman. He was just a fireman all his life. And his dad had been a policeman and had
got shot down downtown, oh, years ago, but it didn't kill him. But his dad was a cop on
the beat. But Jim was a born fireman, and he was a hrilliant man at that. IIe was really
topnotch.
Q: What was a council meeting like? Were they pretty formal affairs?
A: No. They were - oh, there was decorum. You ran by the Robert's Rules of Law. You
had a mayor pro tern and I never got - I ran for mayor pro tem once and there used to
be an open ballot, and the night I ran they had a secret ballot. (chuckles) And I got
beat. And there was some fellows that always said that a certain fellow - oh, there was
some envy - didn't vote for me because they didn't want me to have that honor. Rut that's
just part of the game.
Oh, you had a city clerk read the minutes of the preceeding meeting. The meetings were
always like the second and fourth Wednesday, and the finance committee met on the second
and fourth Monday, the Monday preceding it. And you had your finance committee
report. You always had letters from people, from citizens you know, that the clerk would
- the ones that would be acceptable to read. I'm sure he got some snotty

ones. (laughter) But you'd have those. And they were always interesting, and they'd have
discussions, and you'd have to be recognized from the chair.
The mayor ran the meeting. And oh, occasionally he'd call different aldermen up to
preside. I presided more than once. Generally followed decorum and they didn't last too
long. They last a lot longer now. They didn't last too long, maybe an hour to ninety
minutes. A meeting that lasted over ninety minutes - they started at seven o'clock and
- or seven-thirty I think - and you were out, always out, of there by nine o'clock.
Of course you'd always have some attendance, some spectators, some different department
heads, the fire chief, and the police chief would always come, and the comptroller would
always come. And the deputy city clerk. The city clerk and the city treasurer were elected
on their own, but the comptroller was appointed. The mayor's appointees would be there.
It seemed like after Alton got a city manager - they had a city manager for a number
of years - the cost of government expanded. But I don't say that it was the city manager's
fault.
But as I said when I left the city council, I left. I don't think I was ever back there but
one time in my life. They had a member of the General Assembly up there for discussion
and I went. Not that I didn't like it, I just was in a different field of endeavor.
The precinct committeemen's meetings were strictly political and you'd have the candidates
there you know and the rabblerousing and the guys that were looking for favors and griping.
and like that. They were maybe without decorum.
The mayors I served under were Leo Struif and Harold Wadlow and they were both good
mayors and they ran good council meetings and they've both gone to their reward now, but
I had no problem with either one of them. I didn't always vote for all that they wanted,
but I didn't always vote against them. The only trouble we had with Wadlow was the
appointment of the fire chief. And I guess the biggest thing that happened under Struif
was the police and fireman bond issue. And that was resolved as I mentioned before to
the satisfaction of everyone. And the police and firemen got their back pay.
Q: What made you decide to run for mayor pro tern?
A: Oh you know what - I guess it was an honor. I never had much ambition to he -
I've had people mention it to me but I wouldn't want to be mayor I don't think. I don't
know why I did. I knew I was going to run for the assembly and I thought maybe it would
help me, give me more experience and just instead of saying you're a former alderman, I
could say I was a former alderman and a former mayor pro tem.
But I sure didn't win. I got beat. And that taught you a lesson in a sense. You know,
that you can't take anything for granted. Because that is the truth what I told you. Now
they just elected a mayor pro tem. I wasn't in too many of those elections because 1 was
only in four years plus another year I guess, another ten months. And there was only four
mayor pro tem elections. But the three out of the four were held openly and the one I got
beat in was held by secret ballot so . . .
Q: Why did they change the procedure?
A: Well I think they done that to beat me and they didn't want to know - I don't say that
vainly. I think they thought I could win openly. They couldn't beat me openly, but they
thought by secret ballot they could beat me.
Q: They did, huh? (chuckles)

A: And they did, so that's . . .
Q: Who were you running against at that time for president pro tem?
A: Oh, the man was a senior alderman by the name of Dooley. And he was a good
alderman. His two boys were, and still are, longtime friends of mine. And he was a friend
of mine. And I guess they just - maybe they didn't want me, but that's why they had
a secret ballot.
Q: Was there much of a sense of party there between Republicans and Democrats?
A: No there wasn't. It was strictly nonpartisan. Of course I think a majority of the council
when I was in there were Democrats. But no, there wasn't too many partisan issues. Struif
was an excellent mayor and he kept good order, and he ran a good city. Of course he only
had so many employees. Wadlow turned out to be quite controversial I believe after I
left. Of course he was a Republican state central committeeman for a while.
Q: Oh?
A: Wadlow was. If you recall he was the father of that big tall boy, Robert Wadlow. He
was a giant, he was about eight feet tall.
Q: Oh yes.
A: That was his dad.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: No, in fact he was an alderman in the same ward I came from. He lived in the Seventh
Ward. He was an alderman for a while. And he ran for mayor and he got elected. And
he was quite competent. In fact he was a decent man. And he had a good family, good
reputation, but he had a way of rubbing people wrong, at least I guess he did. Ile got elected
mayor surprisingly. And you know, now that you mention it - we talk about terms - I
believe he was an alderman my last two years, and he resigned when he got elected mayor. I
think he was an alderman of the Seventh Ward my last two years. I'm sure he was. And
he was a shoe man in Upper Alton. And active in Republican politics, which was alright. I
don't see nothing wrong with that.
Q: Well now the draft came up in the middle of your first term and - what happened
there? Were you actually drafted to serve?
A: Well I was drafted, yes, to serve in service like most everybody else I guess. Of course
younger men enlisted. After Pearl Harbor, why, it was only a - I had a pretty high number
and I was - well, I went in 1943 so I was thirty-five years old. And they got around to
me in October I believe in 1943 when I went up to Chicago to take my physical
examination. Then you came home and you got three weeks to, you know, to arrange your
departure. And I just stayed in the council. I didn't resign. You could take a leave of
absence from Shell, and I just worked up there until about two days before I went. And
I went down to Camp Claiborne and was in the engineers and . . .
Q: I understand you knew ahead of time, or thought ahead of time, that you were going
to a specialized unit.
A: Well yes, that's right, that's right. I'm glad you mentioned that. 1 voluntecrcd for the
pipeline engineers, that's what I done. That's right.
Q: How did you learn of that?

A: You know 1 don't know how I learned of that, I guess through the news media. You'd
see it in the paper. Of course the pipeline engineers you'd hear about down at Shell. And
that's how I done that. I volunteered for the pipeline engineers and went to Camp
Claiborne. I may have mentioned this before, but we were the last company I believe that
went to Europe.
Q: Oh?
A: That's what I've heard. I don't know how true that is now.
Q: Yes.
A: The ones that followed us went to Burma and over in that area of the country because
by the time we got overseas it was 1944. I've been told that by people. A fellow that T
met in recent years through politics said he was - when we were talking about service,
he said, "Well," he said, "do you know, we followed you guys," he said, "and you were the
last company that went to Europe." But 1 guess thc way they filled the companies at that
time was by replacements you know. We just kept your old company and if you were short
ten men or twenty men or whatever you were short, why, they just filled them by
replacements. They didn't come over in companies. That's what he meant because they were
the company after us and they went over to Rurma I think. But we were filled by
replacements. I don't think we had many replacements. We never had any real combat
to speak of. We were service troops. And some of us got hurt, but the biggest bulk made
it alright through.
They just had their annual reunion, their bienniel reunion, and I talked with one fellow I
worked with out at Shell not too long ago. He goes every year. They had it one time in
Chicago and one time down in St. Louis. That's the only two I've ever gone to. Bccause
I left them. I got hurt when the Browns and Cardinals - I was in a truck accident -
started the World Series in 1944. And I was only with them from the time I joined them
in Claiborne in late 1943 to - 1 wasn't with them a year until I got - well, about a year,
almost a year to the day - we went in around the twenty-first of October and I got hurt
the fourth, and so I was with them less than a year.
Q: Well you joined them at Camp Claiborne?
A: Camp Claiborne yes.
Q: Did you take your basic training there?
A: Yes. Camp Claiborne, yes.
Q: What did you think of basic training?
A: Well it was like all basic training. We lived in tents. It wasn't too cold, and we had
drills and all that, we never had any weapons to speak of. I mean we weren't artillery,
we weren't infantry troops. We had carbines, the biggest I guess we had was machine
guns. But our basic training was I guess similar to all basic trainings. You trained and
ran obstacle courses and marched and drilled and then drilled some more and fall out and
fall in. And as I said run obstacle courses. We had guard duty. We drcw guard duty,
our company did down at Claiborne, at an ammunition depot, that was part of our routine.
Q: What did you think of Louisiana?
A: Oh I found Louisiana alright. We were in Claiborne and I believe Claiborne wasn't too
far from Polk but we got to go into Lafayette, Louisiana.

SESSION 4, TAPE 7, SIDE 2
Q: That was the closest big town, Lafayette'!
A: Yes, Lafayette. And we lived in tents of four and I'm always an early riser so I was
the alarm clock, I'd wake everybody up. It seemed like we were all up before reveille or
whatever in the hell they called it. And . . .
Q: Did you do KP [Kitchen Patrol]?
A: Oh yes. Hell yes. (laughs) Did I do KP! (chuckles) To show you how military I was,
they put up a KP list after we got to Claiborne and some fellow that I knew was on it,
he said, "Well I can't," he said, "I don't feel good." He said, "Would you tell them I can't
serve." Of course I told them he couldn't serve - and I was the KP. (laughter) And that
broke me of that. And he laughed about it. I said, "Well you roped me in on that."
Yes I did KP, and I did latrine duty, and all things like that and guard duty.
I think we got there ~ovember 11, 1943, at Claiborne to our Company 1374 of
Engineers. And we stayed there to - I think it was - when we broke camp there it was
right around the latter part of April. And we were together that long.
Q: What was the training like? What did you actually do in the way of training for the
unit?
A: Well we had close order drill of course.
Q: No I mean, once you had completed basic training and then . . .
A: Oh the pipeline?
Q: Yes sir.
A: Well we had that type of training yes. That was right along with part of our basic training,
was the laying of that four-inch pipe twenty feet long. And it had a coupling that you
could tighten by your hands.
Q: Oh?
A: And we done that.
Q: What did you do, just lay it and then take it apart?
A: Lay it and take it apart. Lay it and take it apart. Lay it and take it apart. Maybe
the first week you'd go a mile, maybe the next week you'd go two miles. And we had classroom
work on it. We had classroom work, they had portable pumps and you'd study how
to repair them and the flanges. And there were piston pumps you know, that's what they
were, a regular piston pump. I never had any circular pumps. And I think when we went
overseas we took our own equipment with us. I'm sure we did. And of course it got there
a different way but it went on the boat with us.
Q: How many trucks would you have in the company?
A: Well we had the six-by-six of course, not too many of those. Of course the officers had
jeeps. We had 227 personnel and I don't know how many officers, we had seven maybe and
there might have been a hundred odd non-commissioned officers.

Most everybody in the company after they got overseas got some kind of a rating, a T-4
or a T-5 or Staff Sergeant or - we had very few Master Sergeants. I think we just had
one Master Sergeant and he was a guy out of Texas who knew how to lay pipe and he was
gruff and mean. And he wasn't any better than he thought he was, but that's all
gone. But . . .
Q: What was the number of the company?
A: The 1374th Engineers.
And they had a table of organization I guess - 227 TL, is that what you'd call it? Is that
what they still call it?
Q: T-0 [Table of Organization].
A: T-0. Oh they'd bring in different instructors, some pretty rugged guys at times that
would - you had a ten-minute break every hour of course. We took that twenty-five mile
hike.
Q: Oh? Did you make it, keep up with the twenty-five miles?
A: Oh yes. 1 found that the only thing that I had a hard time doing, and I kind of laughed
at myself, was that sidestraddle hop or whatever you call that. (chuckles)
Q: Oh. Yes sir. Well.
A: Rut finally I got it down and I could do it, and 1 have to laugh about that. There was
a Lieutenant Paul that - that - he'd scold me occasionally, but finally I got it down and
he'd look and kind of grin and we'd - oh our basic training wasn't - we weren't trained
for combat I guess, whether they'd put you in combat, you'd train. We just knew where
we were going, we figured we were going to Europe. And I think it was as I said the last
company, and the last company over there was us.
Q: What made you think you were going to Europe?
A: Well you could hear the rumors. 1 don't know, hell, it's just - I think everybody thought
that the European theater was where the war was going to be won or lost I guess. And
between Churchill and Roosevelt and Stalin, I guess, they made up their minds and
I . . . but they - one, we used to always go into town every Sunday. And go to Lafayette,
Louisiana, and have a turkey dinner, a guy by the name of Bell and I. And Bell was one
of our few casualties. He lost a leg over in Europe.
We were strung out after we got to Europe. We went to England and after we got in on
the continent, why, you didn't see much of everybody because they were strung out and you
were laying pipe and you pumped the gasoline. We had gasoline on a pump. They'd pump
it to a depot. But the flanges always leaked you know. Some of them weren't always
tight. Some you could tighten by hand and just some that wouldn't tighten that's
all. Maybe it was the fuel that was doing it, and they'd leak. We never had any serious
fires but we'd have Free French - people would steal our gasoline.
Q: Oh is that right. Well I'll be darned.
A: Yes they'd steal it. Just wherever they could, If they could just get a glass container
and get that much out of a leaking flange, they'd get it. They'd just steal it. And I'm sure
that in depots where they kept it in cans and all that, why, there was some theft there.
The thing that struck me most was the way those damned six-by-sixes would go up taking
the supplies up to the front. They had the red ball up and the blue ball back. And Christ

'
I
59
you couldn't get across that highway if you - it was just twenty-four hours a day. I mean
you'd have to be as fast as a deer to get across that highway. But that was the name of
the game.
Q: Well from Camp Claiborne where did you go for your port of embarkation?
A: Well we went to Orange, New Jersey. I can't remember the name of that place, but the
- my neighbor is from there - Burkland; and we went across the Washington Bridge,
Washington Street Bridge or whatever they call it, in New York, you see it on television
occasionally. And we went in there, and we got - Bell and I - we were there, oh, two
or three weeks. And we got to go to New York two or three times. He and I would go
in and they had buses and we'd eat downtown. There was one of those places called
Dempsey's that you see occasionally on "Kojak" or one of those mystery movies. They had
a number of restaurants. We used to eat in there, not that particular one.
+
Q: Had you been to New York City before?
A: No I'd never been there. No, I've been there twice, and that was going and coming,
at the taxpayers' expense. (laughter)
Q: Is that right? Well I'll be darned. Well.
A: You know that! (laughter)
Q: Did you do much touring around the city? Did you hit Grant's Tomb?
A: Well we got in - as I said, it was two or three times. We weren't there too long. When
I say too long, maybe ten days. We got to eat at Dempsey's, we ate at Dempsey's twice. We
saw Dernpsey. You know, talking about Dempsey, he lived in Alton you know, before he
was . . .
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Well no, you wouldn't know it - but downtown, or what we call Broadway, 507 Broadway,
he was a friend of the Connelly family's and he was here for about a year. He didn't win
the title until 1922 did he?
t
Q: I don't recall the . . .
A: He was here - it was in the late teens, 1918, 1919, for about a little over a year. At
least that's what legend has it. I didn't know him then, but I'm sure that's correct. We
got to see Dempsey and we . . .
Q: Did he greet you as an Alton boy?
A: Oh no nothing like that. One thing though the time we were in New York was that
we were sunburned from Claiborne from Louisiana, and some of those people would come
up - people were generally friendly. Chicago was the best soldier city I was ever in, but
New York wasn't unfriendly, I just wasn't there long - they'd think you'd been to the North
African war and we'd tell them, "Hell, we'd like to be home," but you weren't.
Q: I see. (chuckles)
A: But it was interesting and New York was a very interesting place and we loaded - they
played the "Stars and Stripes" - I mean, what's that . . .
Q: The "Battle Hymn of . . .

A: No they played "Over There."
Q: "Over There."
A: They played "Over There" when we got on the boat. I'll always remember that.
Q: What boat did you get on?
A: Oh shit, I don't know.
Q: You don't remember'!
A: I did know but I'd have to - I did know, but it was a big - it had - as far as we
were concerned, it must have had twenty thousand passengers. Of course it didn't have that,
it wasn't the Mary or the Normandy. It was about the fourth or fifth largest - at least
that's what we were told - the fourth or fifth largest passenger steamer. I think it
belonged to the British company.
Q: Was it the Ile de France or the New Amsterdam by any chance?
A: No it wasn't that. I'm going to look that up. I think I can find that out for you and
I'll let you know that. That would be interesting to put in there. I can't recall what it
was, but I can find out I'm sure. It might take me a little time but . . .
Q: One other thing . . .
A: . . . the ship was real crowded. You slept on the deck you know and you . . .
Q: Oh you slept on the deck?
A: Slept on the deck. They had some fellows down below. Rut we got on late, about the
last contingent.
Q: What kind of shelter did you have?
A: You had no shelter.
Q: Nothing at all'!
A: No shelter at all. If it rained, it rained.
Q: Now this was in, what, about March or so?
A: No it was in late April. Late April or maybe early May. Late April or May of 1944.
Q: Was it very rough going across'!
A: I didn't find it that way no. I can't remember that much. We went over quick. When
I came back, why, that was different. We came down the South Atlantic in a convoy, but
I don't think we were in a convoy going over. Maybe we were, but it was a pretty fast
ship. They got you over there pretty quick. I don't think we were on the seas over five
or six days. Rut you couldn't bathe because all they had was saltwater to bathe in you
know. You couldn't shower I mean, you could wash your face. No, we slept on the
deck. Of course you had - you hear - just Ijke, well you've been in the service, Christ,
the rumors, they had you going crazy. They had guys jumping off the ship and . . .
Q: Oh really?

A: Well they didn't have none of them jumped off, you'd just hear the rumor you
know. They're going to say, "This guy jumped off," and threatened to jump off. Just like
overseas, why, you always heard that somebody was going to he hanged or executed for
deserting or stealing. And I'm sure they had deserters. Well, the facts have it there was
only one fellow executed, wasn't there, over in World War 11, I believe?
Q: Yes sir.
A: That's as far as 1 remember.
Q: What did you have, two meals a day on board the ship?
A: Never had any more. You know I can't remember that. I don't have too good of a
memory. I wasn't the best soldier in the world.
Q: Do you remember what you ate aboard ship, being a British ship?
A: Well I always found army food to be pretty good, as a whole.
Q: But that was a British ship.
A: That was a British ship, but I don't know - you know it might not have been. I'm going
to find out about that. Hell, I've got a guy by the name of Harrison down there over at
Edwardsville who worked out at Shell when I did, that could - he's still a GI, and he's
my age. He liked that army. I told him he ought to stay in it.
Q: Well.
A: Which would have been alright.
Q: What about back at the port of embarkation? Did you get gas mask training there in
the POE? Do you recall that?
A: Say that again now'!
Q: Gas mask training.
A: Yes, yes, we had that. Oh we had that down at Claiborne.
Q: Oh you did?
A: Yes we had that too. We had that gas mask training.
Q: Do you remember the experience of going through the gas shelter?
A: Not too much no. I remember the obstacle course, I remember the twenty-five mile hike,
and - but I recall the gas mask training. I could survive that pretty well. I'm kind of
a survivor. I could take my training pretty good, except the side-saddle hop. I had a little
trouble on that. Rut I was able to take my training pretty well and measure up to it and
the trip on the overseas wasn't that bad. Of course everyone was wondering what you were
going into. We weren't on there very long. We went over pretty fast.
Q: Where did you land?
A: At Liverpool.
Q: Liverpool?

A: Landed at Liverpool. I'm glad you asked me that. That was the most godforsaken city
I ever saw in my life.
Q: Most what?
A: Godforsaken city I ever saw in my life. I understand it's quite a metropolis now. I've
never been back to England. I've been to Ireland, but I never went back to England. But
we left Liverpool too, when we came back, but they . . .
Q: What was so godforsaken about it?
A: Well it just looked - well it just looked so deserted. And it - blackout you know. We
landed at night, at least it was dark, I guess it was night. And it just - well it looked
scary, it just looked scary to me. And I think a number of other fellows had the same
opinion. We weren't in England too long.
Q: Where did you go from Liverpool?
A: We went to Arundel, Arundel down to South Harnpton. Arundel was - we were camped
at the Duke of Norfolk's estate I guess you'd call it, and T think that's in the Arundel of
England. And we weren't there any time at all.
Q: Were there any air raids while you were there?
A: Oh yes yes. There was air raids, yes. You could see them. Oh yes. Of course different
GI's would accept it differently you know. Some would wave at them and some would hoot
and holler you know and it was just a typical bunch of American GI's always raising hell
that's all. Just griping about something.
Arundel had one experience, you remember. They - one time the food gave us ptomaine
poisoning, or however you say that word you know. And we were all crapping all over the
premises but I guess that must have been before the day of Pepto Bismo. Rut oh . . .
Q: What did you do while you were in England'!
A: Well we trained. We trained and . . .
Q: Did your equipment catch up with you there?
A: Well we never laid any pipe there. At least I didn't lay any. T don't think any pipe
was laid there. We weren't there that long. We were therc a long time too, because T don't
think we went in too quick. I can't, remember that either. We were bivouacked - that's
the word I guess you use - bivouacked on that estate.
Q: Were you in tents?
A: In tents. We were right next too a group of British engineers. And I had one guy that
I met - it was right next to me, it wasn't too far, maybe as far as your car is - and he
was a barber and he cut my hair. And you'd talk to them in their exciting language. And
they'd talk to you. Of course that was in May. They'd tell you that the D-Day was coming
in a fortnight. That's what they'd say you know. D-Day was coming in a fortnight.
And I woke up one morning and they were gone. We woke up one morning and they wcre
gone. And it wasn't long after that D-Day happened. They had movies and thcy ran
them. I guess the English people accepted you.
Q: Did you see any US0 [United Service Organization] troops?

A: Oh no, never saw any. I saw some Red Cross but - I can't say I didn't see them, because
I might be unfair there. I saw some Red Cross workers in France. I don't think I ever
saw any in England. We got to Coventry. We stayed at Salvation Army there and for maybe
like a dime, a shilling - and one thing I recall about the Salvation Army, they had an
open urinal. If you had to take a pee you know, they didn't have any cover. But the odor
in the room wasn't too . . .
Q: Well I'll be darned. (chuckles)
A: But it was dormitory, maybe seated. Oxford or Cambridge, one of those universities
must have been close to Coventry. And I think it was Cambridge. Because we went through
that campus, if that's what they called it.
But we were busy. We took hikes. I don't recall laying any pipe. Rut we didn't go on
D-Day or the first ten days. We went in, I think, late in June. And I remember that. We
were on that damned ship I know for twenty-four hours or so before you embarked, twentyfour
hours before you left.
Q: Where did you embark from, do you recall?
A: Well I think Southampton.
Q: Southampton.
A: I think Southampton. We were right near Southampton - I mean Arundel - you look
at a map of the British coast, I guess that's one of the closest points, Southampton, and . . .
Q: Excuse me, I wanted to ask - now you visited Coventry you say'?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you think of the destruction you saw in Coventry?
A: Quite bad. Quite bad. And I just read recently that - of course there's so much BS
out - that Churchill ordered that bomb to shake up somebody.
Q: Oh really?
A: Or for some reason. But I read that since I've talked to you the last time. Rut that
doesn't sound quite - but then you don't know if that's true. Rut we saw it. It was damaged
extensively. And the more you saw of England the more you would see of destruction. Of
course nothing like you saw when you got to France and those places. They were really
beat up on the coast, and the Normandy area, and places like that. You read about those
all the time. And these movies.
Q: Where did you land when you . . .
A: Well we ran - what was there, Omaha and what was the next one, Utah?
Q: Utah.
A: We would land at Utah.
Q: Oh you did, across the beach?
A: Yes.

Q: How long after D-Day was this? Do you have any idea?
A: Oh maybe ten or twelve or fifteen days, I don't recall.
Q: That soon?
A: Yes that soon, yes.
Q: This was before the breakout of St. Tlo then?
A: Oh yes. Oh yes. We were at St. Lo . .
Q: Oh you were? Did you see the bombing there?
A: No I saw that destruction.
Q: Oh you did?
A: That cathedral that was supposed to have been destroyed, where they had that - 1 didn't
see that - didn't they lay out some officer there in the rubble that was the major or gcneral
or someone, some GI general, they had his body lay in state or something - or laid him
out there. I saw the cathedral. We were at St. Lo, yes.
Yes we moved pretty fast once we got started. We stayed in Mere Eglise not too long and
they set up some kind of a headquarters some place along the line. But you didn't see much
of your CO [Commanding Officer], or you only had your oficcr in charge. I ended as a supply
sergeant, so I'd run the line, and there was always a fellow by name of Lieutenant Murdock
or Murdeaugh or something like that would go with me. And we got in Paris after Paris
fell.
I'm sure they had ammunition depots. They had depots for the petroleum products alone
I guess on account of the safety factor. And they wcrcn't too big. And you could see these
- as I mentioned - they'd red ball up and blue ball back. And . . .
Q: When you went ashore, were you in artillery range at that time?
A: Oh I don't know that. I wouldn't think so, no I wouldn't think so.
Q: Could you hear artillery in the distance?
A: Oh yes. We heard it, oh sure we could hear it. So I guess we - 1 don't know whether
- you could hear it. We heard it the first night we landed. I wanted to go
home. (chuckles)
Q: Oh is that right. I was going to ask how you felt about that?
A: Well I'll be perfectly frank with you - it frightened me. It frightened me. Rccause
you didn't know. Sure it frightened me.
Q: Did you pitch your tents over there then?
A: Well ol course the foxholes were dug, sometimes you dug your own hole to hole up and
they pitched puptents. Finally I guess you moved into headquarters and didn't use puptents
but guys were moving forward you know. Troops were moving forward. And you'd see
occasional division headquarters I guess that had field hospitals and things like that. They
moved pretty fast.

VOTE FOR
LELAND J. KENNEDY
DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE3 FOR
STATE REPRESENTATIVE
47th SENATORIAL DISTRICT
MADISON AND BOND COUNTIES
Veteran world War II ELECTION: TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 5th, 1946
a
ADVERTISEMENT FROM KENNEDY'S FIRST CAMPAIGN,
"Oh, I don't think it cost
much. I think it probably
cost fifty dollars ... "

LELAND J. KENNEDY, 1976
"I'd love, in a minute, to go
back again, but I'm not going
to. I don't know whether I
could cope with it."

Q: Now when you first went in did you run pipeline at that time?
A: Oh, you'd lay it - I recall going in Utah Beach. This is rather odd to remember. They
were evidently burying a French civilian and they were walking to the cemetery.
Q: Oh. Just as if . .
A: Yes just as if it was everyday life. Yes I recall that.
Q: Well I'll be darned. Did you get to meet any of the French?
A: Yes I did. I met a French family that their father or their grandfather or their uncle
had been a supply buyer for the French in World War I and had been to St. Louis.
Q: Oh, well I'll be darned.
A: And I recall - I couldn't think of the girl's name - I never dated anybody over there. I
wasn't married, I wasn't running around or anything. I just wanted to get back home and
Mere Eglise was the town. I can't think of her name, but her father or grandfather. And
she would come to the headquarters and fellows would talk to her. ' I don't know whether
any of them dated or not, I don't know. I recall one thing, I told her I was living in Alton,
and she mentioned - she was speaking broken English or broken French or got together,
she said - I told her Alton was 40,000. And she thought that was a tremendously big
city. But I can't recall where we - it wasn't in Utah I know that. I know it wasn't in
Utah. But . . .
Q: You say you saw St. Lo? So you must have gone through that area.
A: Yes.
Q: Now were you . . .
A: What was that river, is St. Lo on the Seine or what was that river?
A: What was that river Patton was supposed to have forged? Is there a Meuse River in
France or is that in . . .
Q: Yes, but that's up north though. I'm trying to - Loire River. Loire is to the south
of the beachhead. I know we did a lot of bombing, the bridges and that sort of thing, along
the Loire. Well, you evidently followed Patton in then going south?
A: I don't know that. They could have. The 1374th Engineers - and some historians
might dispute this, but I don't think I'm incorrect - they had laid pipe as far as Aachen,
would that be right? When did they reach Germany, late September or early
October? Was Aachen the first city they went into?
Q: I don't know that much detail. It was one of the early ones I know yes.
A: It was one of the early ones, alright. It's a fairly large city I believe. It's a town of
maybe one hundred thousand or something like that, Aachen is?
Q: Perhaps, yes.
A: I think it is. I'm not sure but I believe T looked that up - now I didn't get
there. But . . .

Q: The 1374th did?
A: Somebody did and I don't think I was there. Because T was in the six-by-six when I
was in that accident and we were up - what the hell we were doing there I don't
know. Delivering supplies I guess. Time kind of dims your memory on some of that stuff
you know.
Q: Yes sir. Well let's see - you went through St. Lo. Did you move much further south
or did you turn east after you . . .
A: Well I guess when they got there - well that - that journey to St. Lo might have just
been a, maybe, a wasted mission. I don't recall. We saw it, we saw St. Lo. Whether there
was a number of troops of our company - there was some sightseeing done on the side
you know. Some guys would get lost you know. We got lost several times, Gibson and I
did.
We hadn't been over there too long and I guess some Germans had been hiding out and
come straggling in to the company. And they apprehended them of course and took care
of them. But one had to go to the john and somehow somebody must have talked German
and they let him do it, take a romp and that's all. 1 remember that. But everybody about
went crazy and thought they'd catch a prisoner but . . .
One fellow told the story about going in a house and finding a lady sitting there in a chair
dead and things like that you know. Of course it was a ferocious thing. They were using
live ammunition I always said. (laughter)
Q: Yes sir.
A: As well you know, as well you know.
Q: Yes sir. Well then the headquarters was initially on TJtah Beach. Then where did you
go from there?
A: Well you know I can't - we just kept moving I guess. They followed - I'm sure they
had orders and . . .
Q: Did you go south of Paris?
A: Well we were in Paris so we went - what's the direction of St. Lo from Paris?
Q: St. Lo is due west.
A: Due west?
Q: Yes. A little bit south but
A: Well I'll tell you where we - Cherbourg.
Q: Oh? Yes.
A: Yes, Cherbourg.
Q: Cherbourg . . .
A: Yes. That's - sure - that's right. Wasn't Cherbourg a big port?
Q: Yes sir.

A: A port of embarkation or for supplies and them. I think troops landed there after we
had a foothold. I think they brought in . . .
Q: It might have took a while to take Cherbourg. It was held down for quite a while.
A: Yes. Yes. Yes. We were in Cherbourg, yes. And then, wasn't Utah Beach closer to
Cherbourg than Omaha, wouldn't that be right?
Q: I've forgotten which is which. It seems to me it was, yes.
A: I believe one of those was. I don't know how far apart they were. There were several
beaches, Omaha was the important beach. I think Utah was the next important to the
American. And there was several British beachheads I think.
Q: Off to the east.
A: Whether they were six miles long or how long the channel or peninsula is there 1 don't
know. But Cherbourg, sure. That's a fairly large port, and it was a pretty rough city. It
had been beat up too. It had been bombed.
Q: Did you get in to Cherbourg then itself?
A: I think we did, yes. I think we did, but of course you'd recall being to Paris. Like I
recall being to Coventry, England. I never got to London as I said.
Q: Well Paris would have come a bit later
A: Yes. Yes, Paris fell in August, didn't it?
Q: Yes. Someplace along in there, yes sir
A: Yes. Well, Paris would have been later, would have been later. I know that we were
there soon after it fell, this lieutenant and I. We weren't on official duties I guess, we'd
as I said run the line. I was supposed to drive his jeep I guess, but he didn't think I was
too good of a driver and he'd drive it. They had set up field kitchens on corners in
Paris. We saw Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame Cathedral and of course there's a lot more
to see in Paris than those two, but we saw the Arch de Triomphe. And they had kitchens
there, cafeteria - we couldn't call them a cafeteria, places to eat. Field set up on a corner
or on the streets or - where GI's who came into Paris could go, you know, to get a
meal. All you had to have on was a suit. You didn't have to show any identification or
nothing, you know. And I was in Notre Dame Cathedral and saw the Arch. Hell, if you
were there six hours - you would kind of snuck off from duty and go.
Q: Were there services in the Cathedral or you just . . .
A: Not at that time. I'm sure there was, but I didn't attend any services there. I attended
church in England, attended a church in England, and I don't recall whether they had field
masses. Field services overseas in France and you went to those, but I don't recall going
to any church in France. In fact after I got hurt and was back off the continent in the British
Isles, why, we never got to church. They had a chaplain there but they had services maybe
on the grounds some place, they had a mass, a midnight mass Christmas, 1944. I went to
that, but it was just in like a dormitory or something like that. I was hack in England
then though.
Q: When the unit moved forward and on up toward Germany, now, did you get into Belgium
for example?

A: Oh no, never any place like that.
I$: So you stayed fairly well south?
A: Well they never got to Belgium that quick did they? You know I don't know that, I
don't know. I never got to Belgium though.
Q: You were credited with being in the Belgium campaign, so I think it was during that
time that you were in there.
A: Who? Me?
Q: Yes.
A: Where'd you see . . .
Q: Well that wouldn't have necessarily meant that you were in Belgium, hut you were in
France or someplace in that area when the Belgium campaign was going on. Let's see, I
thought I had listed here the three campaigns - yes, Normandy, Northern France, and Belgium
campaigns were the three campaigns . . .
A: Well then that - that's a credit to the engineers, to the company, that's a credit to the
company. And come to think, I think Harrison said they got there. But see - hell, I never
heard - it's funny because I talked to a fellow by the name of Broderick in the last two
years, a fellow I used to know very well, but he'd heen away. And he remarked about his
service. He was one of the first guys to go from Alton, he was a young bachelor, he was
young, single then, not a bachelor. He's
married now and has a family and
grandchildren. Rut he called those camps where they got to come home from cigarette
camps, like Marseille and . . . and I never heard that term in my life until after I moved
out to Godfrey! Never heard it! I never talked about the damned army. (chuckles)
Q: What did they mean by cigarette camps'!
A: Well they'd call, "Lucky Strike, you got to go to?"
Q: Oh I see.
A: Or Phillip Morris or Camel to come home. I mean that's where they sent the guys to
come home.
Q: These were code names.
A: Yes code names, sure. Yes that's right. Yes they called them - and I never heard that
term in my life. If I did, I don't remember it.
Q: Yes sir.
A: Well everybody wanted to get back home I guess. You can't blame them for that. And
of course you had to use the rumors you know that you - even when you were in the hospital,
they were going to pick you up and send you to Japan or something like that you know.
Q: Yes sir.
A: Of course that's - the army is a great place for rumors. I might have started some
of them myself!
Q: (chuckles) Yes sir. Well now, you were injured before the Battle of the Bulge then,
around in December or so.

A: Oh yes. I'm sorry about that now. I was in a truck accident, and I was evidently
asleep. And I woke up in a hospital. I woke up in the hospital at the airport. So we were,
had to be, where Lindberg landed - had us there. And . . .
Q: Le Bourget, is that . . .
A: Something like that. And I never saw the fellow that I was with to this day. I don't
know whether he's dead or alive. I've heard that he said we were struck by a mine, but
it's listed as a non - NBC - non-battle casualty, and I never pursued it any farther.
And from there, why, we went to - this would be interesting I guess - we flew back over
the channel in three-tier airplanes, ambulatory airplanes. And we landed - I don't know
where we landed, but we went into the hospital in Wales where Jenny Lind was supposed
to have come from, in that area.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: And I was there from, I guess, mid-October and I - I got to come home about the fifteenth
or nineteenth of January. I was ZI'd [Zone of Interior'd] and I had the chaplain,
the Father Ryan, who later - I think is still alive - became the chief of the chaplains
at one time. And I went to see him at Christmas or the Christmas week or something. He
said midnight mass, and he said, "Well you're going to be sent home." ZI'd as we called
it, Zone of Interior. And we left. And of all places we left from Liverpool, and it was still
godforsaken.
Q: Well I'll be darned. The same . .
A: About the nineteenth of January, the fifteenth, and came home I guess on the South
Atlantic route. And I don't recall the ship, but it was in a convoy. I think we had four
hundred - three hundred ambulatories, and one hundred litters and we got one egg for
breakfast. One egg for breakfast, plus other - maybe cereal, but I guess eggs were a
shortage. Talking about that, in France , why, one of the fellows that was with us - there
were just two or three - found a dozen eggs one time. Those are things that you remember.
But I got off of the boat, I don't think there was a dry eye on that little ship of ours when
we pulled up the East River or something, and saw the Statue of Liberty, and got off down
the bar, and went to Hallerin General - I think that's Belleview now isn't it'? IIallerin
General, that's what they called it in those days. I was there about a week, never got to
town.
Q: Were you ambulatory at that time?
A: Yes, I was ambulatory all of the time.
Q: What was the extent of your injuries then?
A: Well, just - just my arm and I had a broken jaw. They had my jaw wired shut but
nothing that couldn't be cured or healed. No bullet wounds or nothing like that. A fractured
jaw and a loose arm and just general dissipation 1 guess. (chuckles)
Q: I see. Yes sir. Well then you went on through New York to Chicago as I understand
to ...
A: Yes, and I called my mother from Chicago. When I was out at Hallerin General, Shell
had an office in New York, and Mr. Daly would have been superintendent when I left for
the war - or he was going to be, or he came from there, and I called his office, but he
wasn't in. But he - and I always remembered this, and we talked about it later on after

I went back to work - he returned the call and he sent word out to the Wood River office
that he tried to reach me and he didn't. I appreciated that because he was an executive
with Shell and I was just one of the hands. But 1 knew Daly because he'd walk through
you know. And I got to know him.
Q: Was that his last name, Daly?
A: Horace Daly, the same name as yours. Horace Daly.
Q: Well.
A: Horace Calvo, and Horace Waggoner. I know three IIoraces anyway. And Horace Daly
was his name. Horace Daly.
Q: What did you do in Chicago then? How long were you there?
A: Oh not very long at all. Just long enough to change trains. I got to call my mom. It
took us quite some time to get to - I don't know why in the hell they sent you out to the
state of Washington, but of course that's some of the army, that's alright. We were maybe
four or five days getting there and I was on an upper berth but they were fairly crowded
and my lower berth was an officer and why that was I don't know. Rut we got along
fine. We got pretty good food. And we got out to Baxter General Hospital and as 1 said
we were there from late January until April. I remember the day Roosevelt died. Of course,
I went back to Baxter. We had a sixty-day convalescent furlough, paid your own fare.
Q: Oh is that right'?
A: I flew. As I mentioned I flew from there.
Q: Oh you hooked a ride?
A: From there, but I never got another ride. I went to get the train to gn up to Chicago
and go west to Spokane. And I went back to Baxter one time. Talking about the Red Cross,
I got another sixty-day furlough. And I was in the city council then and T went to meetings
but I got the Red Cross - I didn't want to go back west. Someways they sent me down
to Fort Bliss. Is that in Texas, San Antonio'?
Q: Yes sir. El Paso.
A: El Paso.
Q: I believe it was Fort Sam Houston, wasn't it at San Antonio?
A: Was it? Maybe so. I think I went to San Antonio - maybe it's . . .
Q: Yes. That would he Fort Sam Houston, Brooke General Hospital there.
A: And, well, of course it was after D-Day. D-Day happened in May I guess of 1945. 1
think I was home then. I'm sure I was. And then . . .
Q: You mean VE Day, Victory in Europe Day.
A: Yes. VE Day. And I guess the big day - was that around September?
Q: For VJ Day, yes. I've forgotten now. No I think it was in August, wasn't
it? September or August.

A: Alright. August. I'll tell you - Red Cross got me ten more days and then I got orders
to go to San Antonio, why I don't know. I was only down there - I had orders - you
followed orders and they sent me back out west. And I went to San Francisco and got
orders there to go to Marysville, California. That was up north. And I went back to duty
I think on the thirtieth day of September and if now my memory is correct I think that
was - we were on double daylight savings time at that time, I believe, if you recall that.
Don't you remember, instead of having one hour we had two.
Q: I think so, yes sir.
A: And I believe we changed back to standard time on two consecutive weekends.
SESSION 4, TAPE 8, SIDE 1
Q: And did this confuse the issue then because you had double daylight saving time?
A: Well it confused it maybe when you were overseas because, hell, it never got dark.
Q: I see.
A: Of course it never got light either, till late. You know, that was I guess to accommodate
you people in the air force - I don't mean that disrespectfully - so they'd have more daylight
bombing time I guess. And I guess you could hit the targets better in daylight. You
done a damned good job hitting them anyway. But they . . .
Q: Well let's see - when you went to San Francisco and then on up to . . .
A: Fort Mason.
Q: . . . Fort Mason.
A: Was Fort Mason at Frisco?
Q: I - I'm not sure.
A: I believe that's where they sent me. I was by myself. I wasn't with them. I was by
myself. And I got there and they says, "Well, Kennedy, you've been AWOL [Absent Without
Leave]." And I said, "No I haven't," and I showed them some papers. But they just sent
me up to Marysville. And how far Maryville is above Frisco, I don't know. It's right in
the Sacramento area I believe, Marysville is. But that was a supply depot and they had a
lot of German troops there.
And one thing of interest - they were supplying troops to go overseas, not with weapons
but with, you know, personal supplies, clothes and their gear - but one fellow who was
supposed to have gone through our process place was Shirley Temple's first husband, what
. was his name? Agar, or something like that. I think he went through. You've seen him
on movies occasionally now.
Q: Agar I believe is his name.
A: Well he's supposed to have gone through there but it was getting late and you were pretty
close to the Pacific Ocean, and you thought maybe they might ship you out. So I went down
to see an officer one day and I said, "When in the hell am I going to get out?" And we
talked. And he was about my age, maybe a little older, kind of a fatherly guy. I think

I got discharged on the first of November in Marysville, California. Of course they had a
little ceremony you know.
And one thing that - when I got there though - that has always, some sorrow - it was
a regular service for us and they had a chapel. I always visited the chapels and I went
in there and there was some fellow and he was kind of sobbing, and I went over to him
and he had just gotten back. He had been out in the Philippines or someplace, a young
fellow, much younger than me. Rut his mother had passed away and he was really
upset. And he just complained that they didn't let him know sooner or more gently, but
I guess you can never tell a person anything bad gently you know. Of course you know,
I never saw him again, didn't even know his name.
Q: What was your duty there at Marysville?
A: Well we were in a process center, a supply center, just handling - not weapons, or anything
like that - just clothes, supplies, general supplies for guys who were going to Japan
I guess. I don't know, or going over to the Philippines, or occupation troops going west,
and it was mostly doing nothing.
Q: Well. (chuckles) Were you record-keeping, or . . .
A: What?
Q: Were you record-keeping?
A: No I wasn't record-keeping. I was never in the ofice. No, I didn't, no. I was just an
ordinary T-4 and waiting to get discharged, and I did get discharged. I stopped at Salt Lake
City, Utah, coming home and you had you know your mileage pay and that. But those trips
I made - 1 think I went from Alton to Chicago west twice, and I had to pay my own fare. I
got an airplane ride home the first time and even maybe the second time.
But out at Baxter they wanted to get rid of you as much as you wanted to get rid of it
- you know, not really, just GI stuff you know. If you were ambulatory, they didn't want
you, and you didn't want them as far as that goes. (chuckles) They didn't want to feed
you, and house you. They had a place for guys who were much more hurt than you were.
Q: Yes sir. And you had no desire anyplace along the line here of staying in then, as a
serviceman.
A: No, I never did. Maybe I should have. No I never had. I didn't dislike the army, but
I didn't love it. I'm sure it's a good career, though, if a man wants it, it's fine.
SESSION 5, TAPE 9, SIDE 1
Q: I indicated yesterday 1 was going to ask about Homer in service in World War 11.
A: Well you know, I told my wife about that after you left and I don't know too much about
Ilomer's military career. Now like the last time I saw Homer was three years ago today
and tomorrow. My sister died three years ago and he was down for the wake and the
funeral. IIe comes to Alton to a doctor.
With reference to Homer's military service, I know he went in in the fall of 1941, and he
went to the Aleutians. That's where he went first. And then he went into - I suppose
the Philippines.

And he got out before I did, but he went in much longer than I did. Rut he was out about
a month or maybe six weeks before I was because he came down and met the train, he and
my mother and sister came into St. Louis but . . . do you know Homer?
Q: No.
A: You know he lives in Springfield. He and his wife run the Calvary Cemetery for Bishop
McNicholas, and I was thinking, if you had to have it, you could call him. He's a very gracious
person, and I'm sure he'd he glad to tell you about it.
Q: No. I was just wondering if - you said that he was on lay duty and . . .
A: He was in the office. But they - they were in combat against - weren't there some
Japanese in the Aleutians. Didn't the Japanese get that far? Well, they had combat with
them. Now, as to what - you mentioned he was in the Thirtieth Division I think.
Q: No, Seventh Division.
A: Seventh Division.
Q: I was mistaken, Seventh Division.
A: Well he was attached to the headquarters company when they went to the
Philippines. And when they got out to the Aleutians, I guess it was early. I think that -
well, he was in before Pearl Harbor - whether they were at the Aleutians before Pearl
Harbor themselves - he went out to California. He made some friends out there. He was
up, like where I got discharged in Marysville, he was in that area. They went up to Alaska
from there. But when they went up there - I would assume it would be early 1942, I don't
know. Sometime in 1942.
But they were in combat up there, and they lost some men. When they were getting started
as a headquarters company - if you were there, and you had a gun, you had to shoot it,
I guess. That's about the best way I can describe it.
He didn't go to OCS [Officer's Candidate School] I don't think. 1 think he had an opportunity,
but he didn't go. He may have been a master sergeant; if he wasn't, he was a grade
under that. He was a warrant officer, is what he was, he was a warrant officer, that's what
it was. That's the rank he eventually achieved, a warrant officer.
After I got hurt, I had a couple of letters from him. If they had an opportunity to see
MacArthur - if that was considered an honor, I don't know. I would have considered -
maybe Truman wouldn't have. But . . .
Q: I see. (laughter)
A: But whether MacArthur had doubles or not, I don't know. I don't know that. The only
guy I heard who had any doubles was Churchill, and I think about that and laugh about
it all the time because - because if you hear one guy who talks, you hear them all. So
that . . . (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir. Did you say you had seen Eisenhower over in England?
A: Yes, yes. I saw Eisenhower. At St. Lo and with his driver - I wasn't aware it was
his lady friend. But it was that Kay something, whatever her name was.
Q: Summers.

A: It was Eisenhower. And that was the same day we were supposed to have seen
Churchill. But . . .
Q: You don't know whether it was or not?
A: That's right. So I wouldn't know. Rut - you mentioned - I called that fellow I know,
and I said, "They got the 1374th Engineers down as being in Belgium." Didn't you say that
they were in the Belgium? Did you say that yesterday?
Q: I say you were credited with the Belgian campaign.
A: Well he tells me - and he was a grade higher than me and he was - he might have
been out of the headquarters. We were assigned to what they called the Bastard
Battalion. I mean there was - I don't know how many companies. The pipeline companies
made up the battalion, but he said that some of those people did get to there. Towards
the end of the war they had replacements and some of the fellows that - 1374th Engineers
increased his personnel as TO I guess. And he said some of those fellows, if he remembers
right, did go into Belgium. I know I didn't get to Belgium. I know that. He didn't think
he did, but he didn't remember.
Q: Well of course you could have been supporting the campaigns in Belgium back further
on the pipeline sort of thing.
A: Yes, sure.
Q: Alright sir, one thing - it seems rather unusual to serve on a city council while you
were in service. Was there any objection to your staying?
A: No there wasn't any objection. I think we talked about that maybe the first day we met,
or the first - under the GI bill of rights, you didn't have to resign.
Q: Oh?
A: And I didn't resign. That's all. Geltz resigned, but I said, "No one asked me to, and
no one forced me." They didn't force me. I said, "The way I interpreted the GI hill of
rights, I didn't have to resign, and resign I did not." I wasn't going to do that, that's
all. And I needed - I don't know how to say this - our stipend was $12.50 a meeting
and we met twice a month and they sent my mother my check every month.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: My mother was a widow and she was glad to get it, but no, there wasn't any complaints
about it. If there was, we never heard anything. And I told my mom, "Just as long as
they send it, take it." Of course when I was home on that summer of 1945, I went to meetings,
but no one ever said anything to me about it, and no one ever said anything after 1
got back, but just - I guess the world was - I don't know how to say it, they were very
benevolent, or very charitable at that time down there with the city council. Rut no one said
a word.
But the GI bill of rights specifically said that if you were a member of a parliamentary body
or something like that, you did not have to resign. And I did not resign, that's all. There
was never - oh I'm sure there were some complaints, naturally, but not to me or not to
- specifically oficial complaints - to the council, and no one wrote a lctter or anything. If
they did, I don't know it, and I was never told it.
Q: And the council didn't say anything.

A: No no, never said a word. Oh they might have said something, but I didn't hear - didn't
say it to me.
Q: I see. When you were home on leave, like after you were at Camp Claiborne for example
and proceeding on from there, did you attend meetings?
A: Well I went that one night yes. We were only home for about ten days. They had a
meeting one night and I went to it. I just made an appearance. I didn't deliver - I didn't
stay. I was - well I just didn't stay. I never cared to, and no one demanded that I should
and - but I'd always go to - when I was on those two convalescent furloughs - sixty
days each, why, that's four months - I went to meetings all the time.
In fact I went around my ward. But I never put on civilian clothes. I could have gone
back to Shell they tell me. They were bucking for help in 1945, that period of 1945, from
D-Day on, from VE Day on I guess, or D-Day on itself. But I never did go back. I didn't
go back to Shell until December 1945. But they tell me I could have worked, but hell, I
- I wasn't going to work. I didn't like it that much. (chuckles)
Q: What did you do when you were home on convalescent leave.
A: Oh, went to Springfield a couple of times to look at the - that's why I decided I guess
more or less to run for the assembly. I introduced myself to Curly Harris. Now that's
interesting you brought that up. I'm pretty sure they were deliberating - Illinois had a
GI bonus you know.
Q: Yes.
A: And that was the odd year, so they'd be in session. I believe they might have had a
special on that thing.
But I went up a couple of times and sat in the balcony or the gallery or however you refer
to it. I saw Harris, and I went down to his house to see him, maybe a couple of times
in that period. I didn't know him but I wanted to introduce myself to him. And I'd go
to Edwardsville to the courthouse and I politicked considerable as I'd always done. I just
went around to various places. I didn't have a car. I rode the interurban.
The interurban was a very very economical means of transportation. I always thought that
when they got rid of the streetcars they got rid of something. They had the dinkies in Alton
but they got rid of them before the war. They had the bus, they had a pretty good bus
system at that time. Of course they had gasoline rationing but they had pretty regular
service. I rode the bus, and I walked a lot. 1 walked an awful lot. I just walked around. I
visited with my mother and my sister and her husband and . . .
Q: What was the idea of politicking? Did you have in mind then getting . . .
A: Well I knew I was going to run for something.
Q: Oh?
A: I liked politics, just to visit people. I don't know, I call it politicking. Maybe that's the
wrong term to use. But I visited people and just went around and went to city hall. I went
to the courthouse. And as I said I went to Springfield a couple of times. I went up on
the train.
Q: Oh? What do you remember about Curly Harris at that time?
A: Well, Harris had been a member of the Granite City city council and he went into the
General Assembly during the Horner regime, I mean back in the early 1930's. And, oh I

think he might have got beat one time in a off-year. But I always got along with Curly
and in later years, why, when I went back in again, why, his wife and my wife became fast
political friends. And we used to visit each other's house. Of course that was after my
second go-round. It was in my second go-round.
But Harris had come out of the steel mill and I made acquaintances down there. The CIO
was just becoming - well it had been active for a number of years. It was in the 1940's
then, it became active in the 1930's. I remember about Curly though - he might have been
an officer in there, in the old steelworkers before they - the CIO was different than the
AFL wasn't it, at that time?
Q: Yes sir.
A: Sure it was. They never joined for years. Oh, he had a family and good legislator, a
good clean man and very affable and easy to get along with and lived downtown near the
steel mills. He later on moved out to a better home, which is alright. 1 guess he earned
it.
Q: Do you remember talking any particular issues with him at that time?
A: We each had experience in the city council and it helped you, or maybe gave you a different
light, on General Assembly things. We both had a feeling that you shouldn't maybe
get too close to the county officers. They might always want to use you for something. I
think he practiced that more than I did. I always went through the courthouse and all that.
I think he was referring to the county board, but county boards were different then than
they are now. They were much larger. The Madison County county board is twenty-nine
members now and - for a much larger county; and then it was - oh I think they had fifty
members, which was alright. I never disapproved of it at all. And had a smaller population.
And oh, Burton had been in the General Assembly and naley had been in the General
Assembly and Dave Siebert had been in the General Assembly and I knew those people and
talked to them and they always were reluctant to associate politically with county
boards. Now why that was I don't know. It never bothered me. And it might have been
just a political - what would be a good word? just a political fear that you could - well
counties are, of course, all tax subdivisions. I think when you're in politics at a parliamentary
level, beneath Congress or - of course Con~rcss, we had this saying then, "They're
always wanting something." (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir.
A: Of course that's the only way they get it. They have referendums for it, and you just
try to avoid as much controversy as they can. You have your committee meetings and they
can express their viewpoint there. 1 had my own group of friends that I used to pal around
with, and that's just the way the thing was, that's all.
Q: When you went to Springfield to these meetings while you were home on leave, do you
remember anything particularly about those visits?
A: Well the one thing I remember - they were arguing about the bonus. I know
that. They were having the bonus debate. Rut I can remember Reed Cutler - he was a
kind of - well he wasn't kind of, he was an outstanding legislator. Rut he had a tic you
know. And I guess you've heard about him. He'd shake all the way from the bottom of
the floor up . . . and he'd make a talk. I got to know him before I went in the
assembly. How? I guess I was running around the third floor and ran into him and introduced
myself to him. Rut he had been on the county board I think. He was an attorney

though. He was a good talker, and oh, just was interesting that's all. Just interesting to
see.
And when I finally went back as a member, why, he used to - he was a Republican -
he used to tease me that I was the only Democrat that got elected - it was a two-and-one
district, see.
Q: Yes.
A: And Curly and I were the only two Democrats from the same district outside of Cook
County.
Q: Well! (chuckles)
A: I believe that's correct. I think you'd find that was correct. I looked that up one time
and I think that's correct. Now that's unusual I guess.
Q: Sir I wonder if we could drop back to your council days again. You were on the city
hall committee in 1943 before you went in the service. Do you recall any activity on the
city hall committee?
A: Well, they had a - yes, I recall that. Of course it's like all public buildings I guess,
they put a new roof on it. And it was out for bids and of course Geltz and I, I guess, and
I don't know, some other - they always called us mavericks I suppose - they just repaired
it a couple of years ago and it sprang a leak I think and oh, it led to some controversy
as to why it had to be repaired after just being repaired two or three years ago. If you
put a roof on your house or barn or something, you'd want it to last longer than two or
three years. But they still repaired it and they still let the bids, and I don't say that there
was anything bad about it.
As a member of the council, why, there was different groups that would - we watched the
appropriations and the city hall always needed repairs. We had an auditorium there and
now that auditorium - I've been in the city hall I guess a half a dozen times since I left
the city council. I was down there about eighteen months ago. I had to go down there
for some business there. My wife had to go, and I went down with her, and I see they've
made the auditorium into offices.
I mentioned earlier in our conversation about that would generally be where all the statewide
candidates would hold a meeting, would be at the auditorium of the city hall. I mentioned
about going to mayoralty candidates meetings in the wards. Well when they were citywide
meetings, they'd be held in the auditorium at the city hall. I mentioned in the first conversation
about that Malone being there, and I think there were seven people there, and
I was one of the seven. Of course he didn't get elected either. He was running for nomination
and that was - hell, that was eight years before I was in the city council I guess, back
in the early 1930's. But the city hall always needed to be repaired. Oh, people didn't maybe
keep it up as much as they should, and the lavatory had to be repaired. But it wasn't the
experience that the assembly was.
Q: Well let's see now - when you were home on leave you started going to the
assembly. When did you make up your mind you were actually going to run for the assembly?
A: Well I guess - I don't know - I always knew I was going to run when I - all my
life I guess. (chuckles) When I was overseas, like when I was home, and this man McLain
I mentioned earlier would write me and we'd talk politics in the letters, and I was home
that furlough before I went overseas, that would be 1944, and that's the year that, I guess

Babe Streeper, he's in the hospital right now; and Tony Daly, and Curly IIarris, were the
three state representatives.
Q: Oh?
A: Or maybe - maybe Daly wasn't there. Maybe Monroe was there. And Mueller was the
state senator. And Monroe and Harris were the Democrats and Streeper was the
Republican. And memory had it, I believe, that Monroe was going to run against Mueller
for the senate. So I said, that's an open spot. Daly didn't want it. I think I talked to Judge
Daley. He was a probate judge then. And I talked to him. He wasn't going to run. And
a probate judge wouldn't be running for the General Assembly. And, well, I just made up
my mind to run.
I may not have mentioned John Lauer's name, but he was the city chairman and a leader
of the Democratic party. They called him Mr. Democrat and all. And he could have been
Mr. Democrat in the county too. IIe was a very able, capable and qualified man. He died
in the last year. He lived a long time, well into his eighties. You're generally not received
too well, or you're not received impolitely, but they look at you and they can't say, "I'm
going to be fair." I just said, "You don't have to make any comment. I'm going to
run." And the titular head of the Democratic party in the county at that time was, as far
as I was concerned, was the state's attorney, Bill Burton. And he later went bad, but that's
beside the point. And I just went over and made an appointment with Rill and . . .
SESSION 5, TAPE 9, SIDE 2
A: I made an appointment with Mr. Burton, Bill Burton they called him, and told him what
my plans were. Johnny Lauer sent me to Bill. And well he received me very
cordially. And I later was told by Lauer that I had made an impression on him. I don't
want to cry now - hecause I got along with Burton excellent. And he turned out - he
had some trouble with, oh, law enforcement agencies over other things. But he had me out
to the house. I met his wife, out to his house I mean. Of course he knew my family background,
that my mother and father had been born and raised in Edwardsville and he knew
a lot of my mother's people and a lot of my father's people too.
Q: He was from Edwardsville then?
A: He was from Edwardsville yes, yes he was from Edwardsville. Of coursc he married
an Alton girl. I'm pretty sure he married an Alton girl. And 1 just took it from there.
And I realized that if I was going to get elected, I had to work. And work I did. I didn't
have a car at that time. I hadn't been back long enough from service to get enough money
to get one. But I'd ride the interurban, bum rides from different people, different candidates
who were going to meetings. I'd catch the interurban in Alton, go down to Granite City,
get off maybe in between Hartford and Wood River, and I would just canvass, did a lot of
canvassing, house-to-house canvassing, street canvassing, go to union meetings and various
things like that.
I'd go around to meetings as I mentioned. I was a great meeting attendcr. Like Adlai Stevenson
was here yesterday, down at the steelworkers' office. Of course he's running for
governor as well you know. And always before the fall campaign and beforc the spring primary,
they always had rallies in different townships.
And by the way, some - here's some thought worth mentioning - the Democratic precinct
committeewomen meet once a month in different cities or townships or towns just to get
together, and they - you know a potluck thing. The women bring their dishes and they

play cards or just talk. Women like to go and meet you know like that. And as a rule
as many Democratic county office holders that can attend, attend. And some of the
Democrats around the town that are in, they always go and have dinner with them. They
don't stay. They just have dinner with them and they have the little kitty they put in to,
you know, to help defray - the men don't bring any potluck or any dish or anything like
that. They'd always put a - I guess a five dollar bill, most everybody did - in the
kitty. Maybe they're putting a ten in now, I don't know.
And you went around and met the women, and they like to be recognized you know. It's
just a part of - my part as far as I'm concerned - of keeping your fences mended I guess,
and making yourself visible.
Q: Did you do that during your first campaign?
A: Oh I'd done that - Mr. Waggoner, I done it all my life I guess. There wasn't a day,
except maybe on Sundays, when I sat in the General Assembly, unless I was - I was out
at Shell for a number of years - that I didn't go out in my district, I just done that, that's
all. I just enjoyed it and it was something to do. I didn't fish, I didn't play golf.
Now like on the graveyard shift, I didn't go out in the daytime and I didn't go out much
at night. I went out though but when I was on the change there, on the four to twelve,
I always went out in my district. Of course I left Shell - oh hell, I've been gone from
Shell for over fifteen years I guess, and I left - I've only been out of the assembly eight,
so I done that a lot of times as part of the routine and it was good to do.
I always visited professional people too. I guess the more mature you become as a member
of the General Assembly, or as I became, the more mature T became, why, I'd visit different
people. I'd drop in, oh, at savings and loan offices and banks. I'd go in city halls during
the daytime and I'd go in different retail establishments and in churches' officcs. I got to
know people that way.
Oh, I met a fellow that - I can't think of his name because I haven't laid eyes on him
for years - at the Illinois Power and Light down at Granite City. And his first name was
Carl but I can't think of his last name, but I'll think of it sometime and get it to you. But
I'd always stop in and see him. He was a very cordial man. It seemed like he liked me
to come in. He was an executive with the Power and Light and his receptionist, or his secretary,
they were always very cordial. And I'd go in different chamber of commerce offices
and they were always glad to see you you know. And no complaints, they just were glad
you dropped in, that's all. Just drop in and say hi and . . .
SESSION 3, TAPE 5, SIDE 1 (EXTRACT)
With reference to Shell and the labor organizations, I always used my affiliation with the
union. And I said I belonged to the Knights of Columbus and the Elks and the VFW [Veterans
of Foreign Wars], and the International Union of Operating Engineers, and I watched
my labor vote.
This deals with Shell too. There was a management man by the name of Ford, he had worked
in the laboratory with me but he had followed his education, he was a pretty bright man,
and I think he's still alive out west. He later went west with the company. But he was
an alderman like I was. He was a Republican, a Republican precinct committeeman, and
an alderman, nonpartisan, out of Wood River and a good speaker and a bright man. And
he had filed for the General Assembly on the Republican ticket, I believe the primary before
I filed. And he filed again in 1946 in the Republican party, and I'm sure that's correct. And

of course I filed in the Democratic primary and I didn't have any opposition, but Ford never
got beyond the primary stage.
And I went in to ask for a leave of absence. I didn't want to quit my job - the job at
Springfield only paid $3,000 a year, or maybe $2,500, I'm not sure. And I was making more
than that at Shell, not a lot more, in those days, but I was making it. I was trying to make
extra money that's all, honest money. And well they said, "If you get elected . . ." They
indicated to me they didn't think I'd win. Well that didn't bother me. I mean the person
I talked to kind of - they only said it jokingly. Rut as the luck of the Irish will have it,
I won. And I went for my leave, and I - now this has to do with Shell, maybe the union
and my career at Shell - and got a leave of absence for five months, the first of February
1947 till the first of July or maybe ten days extra if we were still in session, and that year
in the General Assembly, in the sixty-fifth session, they just met every other week.
I think there was a primary race in Chicago, and of course, if you don't think Chicago doesn't
have something to say in the Illinois General Assembly, you'd better think again. I'm sure
you know that. (laughter) And I think Root was running against Kennelly. I believe
Kelly had retired. That was prior to the Daley era. And I guess the Republicans figured
they had a chance. They were making a fight of it and - what I'm trying to say, hell, I'd
go up on a Monday night and - at that time, the Trailways ran a bus, ran a bus right
by my house, and I didn't have a lot of money, all we had was ten cents a mile. We never
had any expenses from the General Assembly and I only had that one session, my last
session. And I - well I was watching my p's and q's. I wasn't getting paid from Shell. I
had a leave of absence without pay officially.
Q: Yes.
A: But Shell had a habit - it was one of their rules, that my accrued service started in
July, 1927. But after thirty days of my leave without pay, my accrued service moved up
to four months, from July to up in November. And hell, I went out to see Mr. Lohmann. I
said, "Mr. Lohmann if you're going to do that" - and he was a very gracious man, he was
the chief industrial relations man. I said, "I'm not going to have a vacation." We got a
vacation, we got two or three or four weeks. Of course the union got us that. I said, "The
next time if I win you're going to overlap into a different year. You're going to move my
accrued service up from 1927 to 1928 and that's going to slow down my vacation period. I'll
never get a vacation." And he said, "Well 1'11 tell you what I'll do. I'll let you come back
and work one day out of thirty." And I said, "Fine." And well coming back and working
one day out of thirty, I started that, it was in the Sixty-sixth General Assembly. And, oh,
some of the mcn didn't like that, but it worked out. For the next three sessions I got to
do it. And I saved my vacation time. I got my vacation.
I first considered taking a withdrawal card from the union. And the fellows said, "Well
just don't do it." They said, "You don't know how often you're going to get elected or all
of that. You'd just have to come back in." But every time I'd come back, why, I had to
take a physical examination. I didn't like that. Well I just didn't like it. I said, "What
the hell, if I don't pass I don't have a job you know." And they'd say, "We're going to pass
you. It's just part of the rules." And I never liked that. Of course then that went on for
the Sixty-fifth, Sixty-sixth, Sixty-seventh and Sixty-eighth assemblies, and I got beat.
Q: Yes.
A: And that - as happens. I was married by then and Pat was born in 1949, and Maureen
was horn in 1954. So I had the two children and we were buying our home and I just went,
settled down, and went to work. And the labor strife at Shell, the union at Shell, was in
that period. Seems like the decade of the 1950's to the 1960's, oh, we could have had - I
mentioned to you about going to the Jesuit retreat league at the White House down there.

Q: Yes sir.
A: We had a strike in say maybe the fall of 1954, 1955, or something like that, and I was
on a retreat. I don't recall the exact year of the strike - there might have been three
strikes in that ten- or twelve-year period. Then they had a big strike in 1962 which 1'11
get to later on.
Q: Yes.
A: But there was unrest. The pipefitters were raising hell and the boilermakers were
raising hell and - maybe not so much collectively as individually, there was just unrest. I
don't know what caused it. I guess the management had to protect their rights and the
men had to protect their rights and . . .
Q: Do you recall any particular objectives that were being established by the union at that
time?
A: Well I guess it was the beginning of automation maybe. Refineries can automate really
pretty well. I mean you've talked to these other industries that I speak to you about here
at the heavy industry of steel and bottle companies and it seemed like that the margin of
profit in the petroleum industry is much greater than at the - I'm no authority on that
now - much greater than the margin of profit, maybe, in the heavy industry. They get
more net revenue out of their dollar than the other people get out of their dollar. I mean
they have to have it, they're in the business to make money you know. Whoever owns the
company, whether it's a private company or a stockholders' company, they have to make
money I mean or they won't stay in business.
TAPE 9, SIDE 2 (continued)
Q: Now let's see, back when you were first running for the house of representatives you went
to Mr. Burton. Were there other county chairmen that you . . .
A: Oh I saw them all, saw them all. But Burton, he was the leader of the party and we
always tried to maintain a friendship. I also went to see Jimmy Callahan, that was the
sheriff and auditor. He was a longtime Democratic politician out of Alton. His father had
been one. His father had been clerk of the court, and I believe his sister may have succeeded
his father, but Jim never held any Alton post. He ran for auditor and ran for sheriff and
he happened to be running for sheriff when you could succeed yourself. And then there
was a Paul Taylor who was a recorder of deeds. Then of course the Hot! family who had
been in the county clerk's office for half a century.
Q: What was the name?
A: Hotz, H-0-T-Z, Eulalia Hotz. She passed away in the last - she was succeeded by a
longtime friend of hers, Evelyn Bowles. I think Evelyn was the only Democrat that doesn't
have opposition in this coming election. And then there was a Judge Mudge. I mentioned
his name when I talked about the jury commission with you there that time. Well there
was Burton and Callahan and Taylor. And there was a Simon Henry. And a Peter Fitzgerald.
And I believe Burton's predecessor may have been a man by the name of Geers. And
there was a Judge Trares, a very prominent family. Trares died a young man.
And then there was - oh, there was a Judge Brown, who was a Republican but a very affable
man, a big huge man. Burton was a big man and made an impressive appearance you
know. Big men that dress well always do you know, and Brown had been state's attorney
and was an exceptionally good lawyer and he'd been - Brown could've served as judge before

I was active, when I was still in high school. I'm not sure, I think he did. He was from
Alton but he moved to Edwardsville with his family.
Q: Yes. Now this was Madison County. Were there those in other counties that you . . .
A: Well there was Bond County - I'm glad you brought that up. When I first started, Bond
County was a member of my district and it was a Republican county, but it had an active
Democratic party. They'd sneak in at election there. They had a man by the name of
Nance, who was a county clerk who would win. And he could have - when I say sneak
in, I mean they'd win a job occasionally. I don't mean that they stole the election, I don't
mean that. (chuckles)
Q: I see.
A: Well, Nance could win, and they elected a man by the name of Combe and it's funny,
I was talking about him recently to Judge Barr. Combe is younger than me, but not
much. IIe ran for Congress once. But he might have been state's attorney, but I don't
think he was, but there was a Democrat that won state's attorney over there. And you
know, I can't think of his name, and they mentioned it at this place I was.
But Carl Johnson who was an insurance agent and was the county chairman of the
Democrats in Bond County, quite active, but ran for Congress against Vursell one time, and
he moved away after that. He got beat and his wife was a schoolteacher and he sold his
business I think and went down to Florida. I would imagine he's still around. I-le was good
help. He was younger, he and his wife were younger people than I am. He got kind of hurt
I think. He just decided that his family was growing and he may have taken his family
with him.
But there was a fellow over there whose name I can't - they struck oil in Rond County,
and in the eastern half of Madison County, and some of the wells proved beneficial, and as
always some of them didn't you know. And that was something to go watch when they
were drilling oil wells, and that brought more people into the courthouse and you'd mect
people like that. Oh, I always went to the courthouse to see what was going around. You'd
eat with different fellows who were prominent in their community, and who you thought
it was good to be seen with.
I think if you watched your television this morning, or last night, they had a big drug bust
over in Greenville.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: And you know, I was surprised because that's a quite a Methodist town. In fact Greenville
College, which is an outstanding small college, been a good teachers' college. It's not meant
for teachers but - well, Rond was - I think most of the townships in Bond were dry townships
when I first started. Now Bond left the district in between the time 1 was out in
1954 and came back in 1962. But it's still a good voting county. Greenville's about twenty
miles from Edwardsville and Greenville's about twenty miles from Vandalia.
Talking about Judge Burton and Judge Mudge, at that time they would nominate candidates
for judicial elections by mock conventions. I refer to it as a mock convention, well you know
they'd have delegates from each county. I think there was thirty-eight counties in this
Third Judicial District. There still is I think. But they would meet in Vandalia. And
you'd meet people there. And you'd meet people when you were first starting to run for
the assembly that you knew later on. And maybe you'd meet some fellows who were delegates
from their district and went to the assembly too. I did meet some fellows, a Brummet
was one of them.

Of course you'd have a lot of lawyers naturally. A lawyer likes to be judge, which is only
proper. And they'd elect their own. They'd have a platform, someone would draw up a
platform. They'd have a slate picked, who'd be the chairman of the convention, or the mock
convention chairman, and the sergeant at arms, and I was never chairman. That always
went to a member of the judiciary, in the first place, who was not a candidate at that particular
time. A sitting judge generally, or maybe a retired judge, assumed the chairmanship
of the convention by virtue of seniority and stature.
Q: How did you come to be a representative on the convention?
A: A delegate.
Q: A delegate.
A: Well the party would pick them. Generally they'd pick some of the more active precinct
committeemen. And that was always by virtue of the fact that you held an office, if you
wanted to go. Sometimes I didn't want to go, but they generally sent Harris and I.
Q: I see.
A: Monroe would go, and I guess Daly went before my time.
One thing that's interesting about politics yet, both parties after the primary election, when
they select their chairmen, it's by statute. They both convene the same second Monday in
April or whatever that - it's now the second, maybe after the March primary, but after
the - it used to be in April then. And they'd always meet on the third floor in
Edwardsville. All the committeemen would come you know, not all of them, but those that
were interested in who was going to be their chairman. And if there was two hundred precincts
in the county, on each party, why, you'd see a hell of a lot of people over there. I
haven't been to one in years now. Since I got out, I don't go. I always went when I was
in. It was just a chance to shake more hands and be seen that's all, and get around, and
let people know you're still active and running for office that's all. Of course I went the
time I got beat too. I told them I thanked them.
Q: I see. (chuckles)
A: The time Simon beat me, T went to that organization convention, and called Simon, told
him I'd send him a letter. Well by that they figure, "Well he's going to run again," you
know.
Q: Well now, when you ran that first time, you did a lot of going around to let people know
you were going to run. What else did you do in order to get elected? Did you put up
posters and that sort of thing?
A: Well I had no billboards. I had those pictures, ran ads in the paper. I mentioned my
first time out, that's - well . . .
(taping stopped to find ad, then resumed)
A: Right here. (presents framed copy of ad)
Q: Your first political ad.
A: Yes.
Q: Well for gosh sakes. Boy, you even have it framed.

A: What's the date?
Q: November 4,1946.
A: No, that's not my first one, but that's the first time I was run. That's not my first
one. That was the night before the election.
Q: Well. And this appeared in what, the . . .
A: The Alton Telegraph.
Q: The Alton Telegraph, yes. Boy, that's a big one. Now how much would something like
that cost?
A: Oh, I don't think it cost much. 1 think it probably cost fifty dollars then, thirty years
ago. Thirty - that would be - this is 1982 - that would be thirty-six years ago. I think
the ad cost maybe fifty or sixty dollars. But talking about my . . .
Q: And you shared that with Joseph Barr then?
A: Joseph Rarr. He's a circuit judge now. He didn't win. I won. He got beat by Mac
Mueller, and that's when Monroe came back on the scene later on. Rut Barr in 1948 -
well here's an interesting - he was a young attorney. He was in my wedding party. We
became fast friends, still are. Rut he indicated some desire to run for thc assembly in 1948,
and he sent somebody to see me. I don't know whether he sent them, or they came on their
own. And I said, "Well I'm going to run." And they said, "What if Barr runs?" And I
said, "Well, I'll just have to run against him." And I didn't say it smart. And he said,
"You mean that don't you?" And I says, "Yes." And he said, "Well, that's all I wanted
to know." But they found a spot for Barr, they ran him for probate judge. Everybody liked
Joe. He had just had twins, and he needed the job. He was a lawyer without too much
of a practice, and he went in on the bench as probate judge and he's been over at
Edwardsville ever since. He's retiring this December. He's - well he'll be sixty-two. 1
believe he'll he sixty-two Halloween day.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: He was a World War highly decorated marine. He got the navy cross citation pin. He
was a lieutenant. A fighting lieutenant. And he often wonders how he got that. IIe very
seldom talks, but he says, "Christ, I think they lost everybody but probably a half a dozen
men." And he won't dwell on it much.
My first political ad. On that ticket was Harris and Kennedy and Rarr; on the Republican
ticket was Hodge and Vaughn and Mueller. And Mr. Vaughn was a watchman at the steelworks,
but he was born and raised in Greenville in Bond County. He'd been in six years
in the assembly, but he wasn't an incumbent at that time, but he'd served and he was trying
to get hack in, which is justifiable.
Q: Yes.
A: And he roomed and boarded right close to us. In the same precinct. Of course he voted
in Greenville. Rut I ran an ad in September just to see how I - I mentioned that I was
the only candidate from Alton seeking election to the house of representatives, and Vaughn
came back about a week later with an ad that he worked in Alton but lived in Rond
County. And, oh, it created some discussion between people in political circles but neither
one of us done it again, it was never done again.
Q: So that was one of your biggest fights then?

A: Well that was - that was the best fight I had. Well I always had fights in the primary,
but this was in the general election. That was the biggest - well in 1948, a man by the
name of, talking about Barr, a man by the name of Straubc, who had been mayor of
Edwardsville, and his boy went on to be mayor of Edwardsville and he was one of the -
was a running mate of Hotz's. But they weren't going to beat Hodge.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Oh the Democratic party was the strongest party and Hodge had just worked differently.
Hodge just worked differently than Bill did.
SESSION 5, TAPE 10, SIDE 1
Q: And they were both . . .
A: Very affable men. I mean Hodge in his heyday was very personable. And if he could
have left the money and the women alone, he'd have been alright. But that's not my sin,
that's his, and he's paid his price. They were both just - well, effervescent, a lot of
personality. Straube had a lot of personality, and so did Orville. Glad hand, you know, and
could go - we were in Rotary clubs and Kiwanis clubs and belonged to the Chamber of
Commerce and successful business men, and things of that nature. But Straube didn't beat
him, but that was a - as far as I was concerned you weren't sure yet you see at how established
you were yourself, and I never really got established because 1 got beat myself in
the primary about four years later, so I didn't get established until I made another stab
at it. And then you can see your maturity, and the way that people accept you but. .
Q: Well now you had the Alton Telegraph behind you here.
A: Oh they always endorsed me. We were talking about that the other day. They always
were friendly to me, even when I came back in 1962. There was a man by the name of
McConnell and a man by the name of Miller, and Miller was a member of the county board
and McConnell had been. And had been supervisor of Wood River Township. The Teleg.raph
mentioned all three of our names, but said that they were going to endorse Lee
Kennedy because he had been to Springfield before. Nothing personal about it, they just
thought I had the endorsement coming, and they gave it to me.
Q: What about other newspapers in the area?
A: Oh I didn't get along with the young Monroe, he always gave me lukewarm
editorials. He always endorsed me.
Q: What paper was that?
A: That's the Collinsville Herald. It was a family paper, but it sold out to some eastern
establishment and they editorialized one time something that I had did, and I just wrote
them a letter. They said I better keep my own house clean. And I answered, and I said,
"My own house is clean," I says, "is yours?" I was refused their endorsement. I had served
twenty years in my last primary. They just never made any endorsement at all. Why 1
don't know. They just . . .
Q: What about in that first campaign? Did you actually go to the newspapers then for support?
A: Oh I always went to the newspapers. Well I think most successful politicians do. You
was talking about Cutler, the Chicago Tribune tore him apart one time.

Q: Oh?
A: And he didn't tell me this but I understand that he went up to see the Tribune. And
now that's a pretty big paper. Of course it wasn't as big then as it is now but I don't know
who writes their editorials. I wouldn't have any idea. They're making endorsements for
the state senate throughout the district right today. But he went to see somebody and, oh,
maybe a week or ten days later they wrote a favorable article about him, maybc not an
editorial, but they gave him a nice plug.
Well I had the Sun-Times do that to me. They wrongly identified me in my first term as
being Paul Ferguson from Decatur. And he voted for something they didn't like and they
said that Leland Kennedy from Alton - identified me. And Charlie Clabaugh showed it to
me. I didn't even see it. But they corrected it. Hub 1,ogan with the Sun-Times - hell,
they corrected it in the next day or two. Which you appreciate you know. I wasn't going'
to do anything about it because it wasn't too - it was a mistake, that's all. And they didn't
do it on purpose. Up there in the fourth press box a guy just didn't know the difference
between - who Ferguson or Kennedy was, that's all. Hell, I'd only been there for the first
couple of months in my first term. Ferguson started the same time 1 did. And he just
didn't identify correctly.
Q: Why didn't Charles Clabaugh let that go if it was going to hurt you as a Democrat?
A: Well Charlie and his wife knew Eileen and I and he just - I guess hc was just gracious
enough. It wasn't that much political politics in it see? Had no politics to it because Ferguson
was a Democrat and I was too, so Charlie Clahaugh showed it to me, I remember
that.
And I think Charlie retired the same year I did. Of course he had more stature than I
had. He was a fine man, a very able man. IIe worked like I did. He worked for the Republican
staff and I worked for Bill Redrnond, and the Republicans at the time I worked for
Redmond were in the minority, hut Charlie had some job out at the Education Committee
and he's an able educator, and he knew school legislation very well. IIe was a brilliant
man. You make friends you know on both sides of the aisle and keep them. And keep in
touch with them.
Q: Yes sir. In that first election what did you do election day'? Do you remcmher the day
itself?
A: 1 went crazy I guess. (chuckles)
Q: Did you get around to the polls or . . .
A: Well I remember what I done election night. I voted election day naturally. My mother
was working in the polls. Well I'll tell you - here's an incident. One of those elertion days,
and it could well have been - I'd just met Me1 Price and he came over - it was his second
term, sure it was that day. He came over and he went to a number of polls, and 1 wcnt
with him to a number of voting places, just to pay his respects to the judges.
Q: Me1 Price, this was the congressman?
A: Yes, Congressman Price. And T know the Nineteenth Precinct where my mother was
working, and they had three clerks and three judges and I think it was four and two, four
T)emocrats and two Republicans or vice versa, I forget what it was, we were a swing
precinct. But they were just thrilled to death, to think that a congressman would comc. in
and see them. And I think that's one thing that made - Pricr did that all over his
district. He couldn't go to all of t,hem, but every election day he'd go to maybc half a dozen

polls in a particular city and he's still in Congress. He's feeble now and the Tribune said
the other day that he oughtn't to be running., but he's running for his twentieth term.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: So he must know what he's doing.
Q: Well did you pick up on that? Did you then go to the poll places?
A: Well in my campaign as an alderman, I went to all the precincts. I always would bring
them in a lunch. Hell, I'd even done that out here when I was a precinct committeeman
in Godfrey.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: You'd bring them up a lunch. You know, not all the time, but sometimes you'd go get
them goodies. Most of the time you'd do it. But talking about what I done election day,
election night, why, I went down to the Telegraph and just watched the returns come
in. They'd let you. They go to the city hall now, at that time they went to the
Telegraph. You wouldn't be the only guy there, the place would he full and . . .
Q: Of both Republicans and Democrats?
A: Oh yes, everybody, yes. A lot of people would go to the courthouse. I never was in the
habit of going to the courthouse. I just went down to the Telegraph and when I left I walked
home that night. Young Paul Cox - he's not young anymore, he's my age. He still lives
in Upper Alton where he did, up on College Avenue and Seminary - he wanted to walk
with me home. And it was going to be close, you could tell that, Vaughn and I were neck
and neck, about three hundred votes apart, legislative votes apart. I walked home.
And I had some vacation time coming so you know I was off. I had taken a week off.
Then Burton comes in now. He called me up or I called him up the next day or went to
Edwardsville, and they were canvassing the votes and 1 went up to see him. He says, "I'll
tell you what I'm going to do." Or Eulalia Hotz said it. They ran a total, they'd canvass
the votes you know.
Q: Yes.
A: And of course counting in the General Assembly races with paper ballots, they would
miss some bullets as you'd called them. Somebody might give you - or Mr. Vaughn, might
give him three and it wasn't counted, or they gave Lee Kennedy three and it wasn't counted
as three, it was just counted as a vote and a half.
Q: Yes.
A: Why, it so happened that I had more votes than Mr. Vaughn had because of that particular
difficulty, but when Bond County came in, he went ahead of me. Which is understandable.
So they ran a canvass again, an official canvass. And I came out about five hundred
votes ahead.
Then again I refer to Reed Cutler. He evidently had had some difficulties with Vaughn
before in the house because, hell, there was only sixty Democrats where there was 153
members. There was sixty Democrats, or maybe sixty-fiva, and there was a majority of
Republicans by eighteen or twenty and they sent the election contests to the Election
Committee but they hadn't ever counted the votes again, they just took the canvass. And

Cutler was chairman of the committee and he said, "Just don't worry," he said, "there's nothing
wrong with your results." He said, "There's no way that you can be unseated," and
he was just being kind to me I guess because he could see I was upset. There wasn't anything
dishonest or anything like that. It was just . . .
Q: Oh. Well how did he get the contest? Did you have to request it?
A: No, Vaughn requested it.
Q: Vaughn requested it?
A: And he had a file against I-lodge and he had a file against Harris. That was the statute
that time under the Constitution of 1870. You couldn't file against - well we were all three
- all four of us close, but three of us won, and he was beaten by that figure and he had
to file, had to be represented by an attorney. And that costs you some money. But for the
incumbent members, why, that was part of the duties of the assembly to protect their mcmbers
regardless. And I was certified as elected. Sworn in. And the hearing doesn't come
up - oh they have contests all the time. They always have contests and they never decide
until about the last six or eight weeks and it was just thrown out.
But Vaughn was very gracious ahout it. I guess he was aware of what was going on. And
I never did see much of Scotty. He moved back to Greenville and retired. Oh he was considerably
older than me at that time, he would be when he passed away too. And he died
- and we had a resolution for him - at his house and I sent his family - I think his
family was - well there was some disappointment, they were chagrined I guess because an
upstart had beat him, but that's the way it happens I guess. All the time. It will happen
that way Tuesday I guess.
Q: Yes sir. (chuckles)
A: A week from Tuesday somebody - there will always be some upset you know.
Q: Yes.
A: And referring to the assembly that's coming up, why, you're going tu have some fellows
that have never been there before. And none of the people will know their talents or any
of their characteristics and things like that. As it slowly comes to the maturity of them
- and just like there was a piece in one of the magazines - 1 don't read t,oo many, I read
the U. S. News and World Report and I guess that's where it is. They have a tremendously
large assembly in New Hampshire, four hundred and something, 1 believe, the house of
representatives. Tremendously large.
Q: Yes.
A: And the number of senior citizens that are in it.
Q: Oh?
A: And I guess the salary must not he very much at all. It talked about guys turning back
in their salary and all that, but how much more cautior~s in their voting and nonpolitical
that senior citizens are than the young upstarts. So I don't ever wonder how 1'11 do, because
1 doubt if I'll ever run for the assembly again now.
Q: Yes. Well now let's sce, Rond and Madison Counties were the only two counties in your
district then?
A: Yes the Forty-seventh Senatorial District at that time.

Q: Yes.
A: Bond never did like being with Madison County I don't think, because they couldn't elect
a legislator, but they elected Vaughn.
Q: Yes.
A: And they had a man by the name of Bickenns out of there that, when I was on the Illinois
Commerce Commission - the Commerce Commission judges your utility rates and I served
on the Illinois Commerce Commission. He was a big man. Well known throughout the
state, a big Republican, he could have been on the state ticket at one time, I'm not sure. He
had ambitions to be, but I'd go see Bickenns when he'd be in town. He had a law office
there and he was always friendly to me. I'd just go see everybody and just . . .
Q: What about door-to-door? Did you do door-to-door?
A: I went door-to-door a lot in my alderman contests. I didn't do too much door-to-door
work as a state representative except one time down in Nantiokee Township in one of these
primaries. It was pretty rugged and I wasn't sure of myself down there. I went door-todoor
there, and my wife went door-to-door too. But we weren't too cordially received so
we didn't - I've never done that much. I don't say I didn't do it, as I mentioned I'd go
to stores, and I never went in taverns. I just wasn't a tavern campaigner. Filling stations
and different places like that - well I think Simon always had a way about him. He'll
go and maybe get three dollars worth of gasoline at this station and drive till he's out and
get three dollars worth of gasoline at the next station. Well I done that. I done that. If
you're going to be out all day and drive a hundred miles, well you could - hell, with gasoline
as cheap as it was then you could get a couple of dollars worth here and maybe hit at least
two stations.
Q: Yes. Well. (chuckles)
A: Interurban stations were a good place to campaign. And homecomings, you always went
to homecomings. And all of these townships have these homecomings and all of the cities
and counties and villages and you'd have homecomings running out of your butt
sometimes. But I went to them. I wasn't, oh, overenthusiastic about homecomings as a
political means. I always thought people were there for that, what the thing was, a homecoming.
Q: Visiting.
A: And they didn't - to visit - and they didn't like to be bothered by politicians. Now
some of them did. And the same way with bowling alleys. I went to bowling alleys. But
hell, I thought those guys had worked all day, or the women's team, and the men's team,
and they were glad to get away from their husbands or the husbands were glad to get away
from their wives, and get a few beers and - oh, some of them - it was alright, but I'll
bet the bulk of them didn't give an S-H-I-T whether they saw a politician in a bowling alley
or not. They just were out for . . .
Q: They came to go bowling.
A: That's right and just to have a night on the town.
Q: Did you have cards printed up that first go-round?
A: Oh yes, I had cards. I've still got some cards I believe some place. You wouldn't want
those would you?

Q: Oh I don't think so.
A: I still - I could - there were some here . . .
(taping stopped for search for cards, then resumed)
A: Well there's one from the first time, right there.
Q: Well by golly.
A: That's a blotter.
Q: Well. "Tuesday, November 5, 1946, a veteran of World War 11." How much did being
a veteran of World War I1 help you in your campaign?
A: Well I've been asked that and I always - there's something I passed out at Shell in
my 1950 primary election I believe. Or was it . . .
Q: Yes, "Primary, April 11, 1950."
A: I only done that that one time. I never sent out any handbills like that. Now just to
show you how politics operates, Mueller and McConnell had both been big supporters of
mine. They both worked out at Shell. And Mueller had run a terrific race for the county
board the spring before. And he wanted to run for the assembly. Simon was going from
the house to the senate, which is alright. And he and Mueller and McConnell had been
feuding, and McConnell told me he was going to support mc. But I think Paul Simon had
opposition. He wanted to have some strength and all, so he went and got McConnell to
run, but that was alright. McConnell camc from a big family, the fellow had six or seven
sisters, and all live around here. My wife sees them all of the time, and I see them. They're
all girls in my wife's generation, and we see them all of the time. Rut he's - he's very
unfriendly, but I wouldn't make any issue of it in the memoirs. He's just that type of
man. But he later went to the city council, but he could ncver get reelected.
&: Well I'll be darned.
A: And last time - about three or four years ago, he was on the city committee, somebody
beat him for the precinct committeeman. He just - kind of arbitrary. Hc had a good job
out at Shell. He's got a lovely wife and lovely family, but he rubs people the wrong way.
You mentioned about how much help does a veteran be. I don't know how much help, but
McConnell wasn't a veteran. He had a family and he didn't have to go, which is alright. But
when he was the township of Wood River supervisor, and I couldn't prove this, below his
farm was a veteran's organization out in Cottage Hills or out in that area there. The people
that live in Wood River Township, Cottage Hills is one of the muncipalities, and it's a heavy
Democratic vote. A heavy Democratic primary precinct., township, or howcvcr you'd refer
to it.
Q: Yes.
A: And I think that's where he got beat for supervisor. And you know, I didn't campaign
much out there in 1962.
Q: How much did it cost to run that first time?
A: Oh, it cost less than a thousand dollars I imagine. Well my assessnlent in the fall was
four hundred dollars I believe, right at four hundred, but I'd saved some money and if you're
going to talk - like walking money and gasoline money and lunch money for you and your

wife and family when you're out, or supper money, I don't know. But I would say my assessment
wasn't four hundred dollars. It was only four hundred dollars in 1962. I think it was
two hundred and fifty. I'd say a thousand dollars roughly, a thousand or twelve hundred.
Q: Did you hold a fundraising of any sort?
A: No. I only had one fundraiser in my life, in 1971.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: I sent out a lot of letters after I got in the assembly and got to know people statewide
and district wide, and different people would - oh, the different financial institutions, the
savings and loan institutions and banks would always contribute to my campaign. And I
got some help from labor and some guys would just walk up and give me a ten dollar, twenty
dollar bill you know. And things of that nature. And some lawyers would give you
more. Your walking money was your own responsibility I always figured, just one of those
things. Did you see in yesterday's paper where Stevenson's raised two million and
Thompson's raised four million? Can you imagine that?
Q: I didn't notice but that's a tremendous amount.
A: Isn't that terrible?
&: Gee whiz.
A: I always watch NBC, Mudd and Brokaw, and they had - I think just last night before
the ball game came on - that in the district out in California are going to spend two million
dollars for a job that only pays sixty thousand dollars a year. That's almost sinful, really
it is. The Ethics Committee makes you report that but just imagine that kind of money.
And I think the guy that's running against the incumbent people - that guy two years ago
- and he's been there three terms, now he's trying to get back in. Some district out in
California. I couldn't tell you their names or where - I guess it was a swing district. I
imagine the California guy elected last time was Republican. They beat a Democrat, a
Democrat's trying to get back in. And imagine that. Christ, you'd think that you'd owe
your shirt. If you got beat you'd owe it I'm sure, but if you won you'd - why, you couldn't
go to bed.
SESSION 6, TAPE 11, SIDE 1
A: I had cards and I didn't put the election on and the date.
Q: Oh I see, yes, so that you could use them year after year.
A: And I used - you asked about placards . . . (holds up placard)
Q: Oh good. I see and you didn't put the date on them either then. Well.
A: No. I knew I was going to run again. And with reference to my service in the army,
I think I told you that after I'd been hurt, why, I was sent to Fort Mason. I found that
- my wife found it.
Q: Oh. (reads) "San Francisco port of embarkation, Fort Mason, California, 28 September
1945. Tech. 4, Leland J. Kennedy, 36697143, joined this station, 1300, 28, September,

1945. Second Lieutenant Burgess." Now this was proof that you were not AWOL [Absent
Without Leave] when you arrived out there then'?
A: That's right. (chuckles) That, I guess, was saving me.
Q: Well. Then they really were complaining about you being missing? (chuckles)
A: Yes. And there's the results of the downstate balloting in the 1964 at-large election.
Q: Oh my goodness, yes, boy. I'll be doggoned. This is everyone. You've got a . . .
A: That's without the Cook County results. I think I'm ninth and tenth there, but when
it ended up, I think I finished thirty-fifth or thirty-sixth.
Q: I see. These are in order then, yes. You had 1,009,027 votes for you. Following Ed
Schaefer and ahead of Joe Stremlau. Well.
A: I guess Stremlau's dead, isn't he, or did you know him?
Q: I didn't know him.
A: You didn't know him'!
Q: I believe he is. I'm not sure.
A: If you'll notice there that John Morris was the top Democrat downstate - but I think
Stevenson went around him - but he's a tax expert, he works for the state now, or he
did. He's a long-time member. He served for twenty years, but he left kind of young. He
got beat - have you met him, or . . .
Q: No, no, I sure haven't.
A: He's from up in Chadwick. That's in the . . . well I guess it's in the northwest corner
of the state.
Q: Alright sir, let's see. Up to this point we've gotten you elected. I'd like to ask, now
during that election, or leading up to it, you anticipated you were going to go to the house
of representatives. What did you do in the way of preparing to be a representative? What
things did you study, or . . .
A: Well, as I said I had went to Springfield several times when I was home on thosc furloughs
to watch the house in action. And I had had some previous parliamentary experience,
I guess you might say, of being a rncmber of the city council. And I always read a
lot. I was always a reader of - I guess this is a compliment to the big city's newspaper
- I was always a reader of the Chicago Tribune, I always read it. And even as a young
man I read any metropolitan newspaper I could get my hands on. I went to the library
a lot to read papers, and I done a little research ovcr at the - maybe not with reference
to so much the action of parliamentary bodies - they had a historical museum, the county
had a historical museum over in Edwardsville, and I'd go in there quitc frequently to -
to oh, just to rcad whatever they would have to read. And of course I think your association
with - well I think I've said before - people smarter than you or more well-versed, just
like my association with you is teaching me things.
This is after I got elected, but my wife was from Champaign County. I met her in
Springfield. We married in 1949, my second term. We'd yo home a lot, the five of
us. Grandma and Grandpa Kane, they were alive then, they were alive about the first
sixteen to eighteen years of our marriage. And I'd always go up to the U of I (University

of Illinois) library and muse around. We'd have summer vacations or winter vacations or
time off, and I'd always go in there and just - well just read as many - not from cover
to cover, just spot reading.
But I always found, and I still find, that the reading of a metropolitan newspaper - now
I don't read the New York Times but my brother-in-law does. My sister's dead, but he reads
it yet. Every Sunday he gets it. But I think those things can teach you so much, at least
I thought I learned a lot.
I used to be an avid reader of George Tagge as far as that's concerned, and I'll always
remember that when I got back into politics I sent him a note, and I don't think he'd remember
me if he saw me. Well I never did have any interviews with him or talk to him, but
I sent him a note. He always had a column, I don't know whether it was a daily
column. And when I was a candidate again I told him I imagined there was several hundred
Tribunes sold in the Forty-seventh Senatorial District, or I mean in the - then it was the
county only.
Q: Yes.
A: And I would appreciate if maybe he could mention that, and he did.
Q: Well.
A: And mentioned that he'd hoped that I'd come back. That was a very nice gesture on
his part.
And it's just - oh by continually getting around and meeting people from different walks
of life, and things of that nature, you can - my experience at Shell as working shift work
- you could hear people talk. They had big water troughs out at the main gate and then
they had a big one at the south gate as they called it, and then they had - a huge water
trough. They used to have individual wash houses for each department, but they discontinued
that. And you'd get to know people, and pick up some, oh, some gossip or some opinions
or some sayings and just your association with the various individuals or groups of
individuals has always been a very learned experience in my life.
Rut what preparation, if I made any - I just figured I knew what to do I
guess. (chuckles) And I say that not with a vain approach. I thought 1 could handle
myself.
I mentioned to you yesterday about Reed Cutler. I found Reed Cutler to be an interesting
individual. And I'd eat breakfast with some of those people you know. You'd see them at
breakfast and sit down and have breakfast with them and . . .
Q: When you got up there, were there particular individuals that you began to kind of pal
around with . . .
A: Well, the Legislative Council - and I guess they still do - they had what they call firstterm
dinners you know.
Q: Oh yes.
A: And they'd maybe have a series - January, February and March, maybe they had a half
a dozen. And there were always newcomers you know. Maybe there might have been
twenty-five to thirty, and I think the man you mcntioned at the beginning is the fellow that
- what's his name, Sam? He might have been - Sam Gove, or didn't you mention - or
isn't he on your pad?

Q: Sam Gove, Samuel Gove?
A: Samuel Gove. He might have been the instigator of that.
Q: I see.
A: And he seemed to be a very learned man.
Q: Was Noble Lee there at that time?
A: Oh yes, excellent man, oh my goodness, man, excellent man! He'd be - I'm glad you
mentioned his name. He was a brilliant man. I wonder if Noble is still alive by the way?
Q: I don't believe so, no sir.
A: He'd be always one of the speakers at those dinners. Now I imagine they would have
a fellow like Katz speak now at those dinners because he's a - to deny that Katz isn't a
brilliant man would be silly, he is. Very learned and a differmt type of man than Noble
Lee was, altogether, but . . .
Q: In what way different?
A: Well I mean - well
Q: Well, Republican and Democrat of course. (chuckles)
A: Well no, I don't mean that at all, because you find I think in most instances - 1'11 refer
to that first, party affiliation. Your party has a platform or you have caucuses and you're
going to support this and you're not going to support, that, hut I doubt if 20 percent of the
legislation gets down to party votes. Of course there's going to be some discussion on the
appropriations, just to be discussing them I mean, if for nothing else. And the closer the
- like if it's eighty and seventy or seventy-five and scventy-three, why, you're going to have
some.
But the difference, Noble Lee was a brilliant man and he just - well he was different in
maturity than Katz I think. Katz is more - we're closer in age I guess. I'm older than
Katz I'm sure. I have no idea how old he is. But I think Noble Lee was, oh, a generation
ahead of me. And I don't think Katz is. I might be a generation ahead of Katz. That's
the way you'd describe that. And Harold is an attorney for union organizations and I don't
think Lee was. He was just a . . .
Q: He was an instructor I think at the Marshall School of Law.
A: That's right. That's where he was, sure. He was. And I'm sure Katz could he. And
I imagine you could pick up - probably you could be, and maybe I could he. I've oftcn
thought I'd like to. This is an ambition of mine. I'd like to be able to give political lectures
at Principia. Just a question-and-answers. They wouldn't wen have to pay me, but it's
never materialized yet. But it might someday, I know some instructors up there.
Q: What about those dinners, that kind of infornlal course'! Do you recall any of those in
particular that . . .
A: Oh they were good. They were excellent. They prepared you for what, was to
come. And . . .
Q: What types of things did they talk about when they . . .

A: Well legislative process, committee process, and the introduction of bills, and the amendments
of various bills, and the political process naturally was always spoken about. At that
time, in the Sixty-fifth General Assembly when I went in, why, Jerome Finkle was head of
the Legislative Reference Bureau. And I found him to be a - well he was Noble Lee's type
I think. He'd talk to you and he had some assistants - assistants, I don't say they were
assistants, they were probably on the same level. They had a man by the name of
Peterson. Well I used to go to Springfield a lot. When I met my wife, I was dating her
then and I'd have days off and I'd just go up on the train and visit there and visit with
them, and like we're visiting now more or less, and I always got along with them. I could
learn something from them.
Q: Did you use their library very much? I understand they had a very good library there.
A: Oh I guess, yes, as much as I could. Maybe not as much as I could but as much as I
dared to I guess, if that's maybe true.
But I always thought the council was one of the - well, hell, you could find anything out,
or they could find it out for you. I always was a great believer in the council and this shows
that this - if they were running this along with Sangamon State, it shows their
knowledge. They're doing this for posterity.
Q: Did you know Jack Isakoff then?
A: Oh yes yes. He was a brilliant man. Did you tell me he passed away'?
Q: Yes. He has. I don't know whether I mentioned it or not.
A: Just recently. Oh, I think maybe I heard that somewhere. Oh he was a brilliant . . .
Q: I don't think it was just recently but
A: Jack Isakoff and Jerome Finkle, and I don't know whether this man's name was Peterson
or not - I'd mentioned it as Peterson - they became fast political friends. I use friends
- people you could go to for advice, seek opinions on. And you found that in the various
directors or the assistant directors of code departments. You got along with some, and you
just felt easier with some people than you did with other people. I found that.
Now here's something that may fit into our discourse. There was a fellow by the name of
Tom McNalley. Hell, I didn't know him from nothing when I went in the city council. I
don't even think he was there, Straube fired him. I mentioned that we had ward funds and
people would complain about maybe a gutter here or an alley or a street light there. And
I'd never been in the street department before as a nonalderman. And I went down to see
him one time and talked to him and found that I could get along with him fine. If you'd
ask him to do something, or get something repaired for you, Tom would take care of it if
he possibly could. Now of course if it was a big job he had to have some money, and you
could see that he got maybe some part of the funds from your ward fund if you had any
left. But you could go to him and he'd go out there and make his presence known so at least
the person, or the persons, who made the complaint would find that at least you were trying
to take care of it. I use the word complaint, it might be just a suggestion.
Between Alton and East Alton was the - well it's old Broadway, I guess they call it Broadway
yet. It used to be the main thoroughfare to get to go to Edwardsville and it was always
dark at night and, oh, through the state and the county and the city they put in street
lights. It's just all lighted. Of course that's been - hell, that's been thirty or forty years
ago. It was just - you know get things done that are reasonable to get done, of those
nature.

You find that different people accept you differently, and you accept them differently. But
I found Jerome Finkle to be very helpful, and this man I call Peterson - that's not his
name though I don't think. I think his secretary was a Miss Peterson, or one of the ladies
in there.
But Jack Isakoff was brilliant. And 1'11 tell you who - Bill Day and Bill Hey were very
helpful. My goodness, they were - and all the staff, 1 don't know - is Dorothy still
there? Dorothy Nadasdi? She was always very helpful.
Now in later years, why - well isn't there a Mr. Nichols in the Reference Bureau? Or is
Bobhitt still there? Robbitt had left hadn't he?
Q: He left, yes.
A: He was kind of cranky I thought.
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: Rut now maybe that's just my personal opinion of him. Rut his assistant was a fellow
who wore a mustache. Nichols. He had a different personality than Bobbitt did. I think
most of the fellows would go to him with their legislative bills that they wanted drawn
up. Loren was kind of cranky. I've talked to him since. Seemed like once he got out of
there he changed. Maybe the pressure was too great for him, you know. I don't know, it
might have bccn. And pressure gets to people in different ways, that's all.
And I found my first term up there, why - talking about people - I found Governor Green
to be a very decent sort of a man. You could go in and see and talk to him, and he made
you feel at ease.
Q: Even as a nemocrat you could go in?
A: Oh sure. Yes, ycs, he made you at ease. 1 don't think that - oh, there's politics
naturally. I mean Thompson's running as a Republican and Stevenson's running as a
Democrat. They both have their tickets but once you get there, why hcll, I think you get
along with them there. Thew are going to be some arguments and some disagreements and
there's going to be the Chicago and the downstate but they - I think it's overplayed. 1
think what's good for downstate is good for Chicago and what's good for Chicago is good
for downstate in most cases. There's going to be those collar counties around Cook County
- why, I guess most of them are Republican dominated, but in a sense they all get
along. They all root for the Cubs and the White Sox and U of I and the state schools.
Q: How well did you get to know Governor Green?
A: Oh - of course I went in in 1947 and he got beat in 1949, no he got beat in the 1948
election. I just served two years under him. Oh, how well did I get to know him? Nothing
on a personal basis, but they entertained the General Assembly once a year you know. I
think they still do that.
Q: Over at the Mansion you mean?
A: Yes over at the Mansion. But at that time they didn't invite the wives, at least they
didn't at the session I went under Green. And he seemed to be very nice, he and his wife,
very . . . well she later - after he died - she later wrote an article for the Tribune for
years, didn't she, Mrs. Green? I think she did.
Q: I don't know.

A: Yes I think so, had a column. Well they were very hospitable and friendly and he recognized
you and all that.
I guess the governor I knew the closest was Governor Stevenson. He followed Green and
you could watch him grow and his major domo I guess was that Molar who later - I think
he went bad. Didn't Molar get a Pulitzer Prize for journalism?
And I can say some very kind things about Governor Stevenson. Of course we didn't have
annual sessions yet. And I think annual sessions - I'm kind of like Bill Horsley, they're
for the birds. They increase the cost of government unbelievable. But I remember one time
right after the Kefauver inquiry at - I think Senator 1,ucas got beat in the 1950 fall election
by I guess Wayland Brooks and I came up on the train one time. And I'd always go up
on my change days. I was married by then. Just to - well I perceived it my duty as a
legislator. And I saw Lucas sitting down in the station there where it is right now. They
used to have trains that went to Beardstown too at that time. They called it the C & A
I guess, I don't know - the Baltimore and Ohio. I went in and told the governor just -
was allowed to go in and see him. They'd let me. I'd go in to see him, and he sent down
the - I saw that Luke was sitting down there by himself and he sent someone down to
pick up Lucas and pick him up for lunch at the Mansion.
And I know when Stevenson - after he'd been defeated for president, I went in to tell him
goodby and he had me stay for lunch with him, and just he and I. And he was a very
very fine man. If Adlai's like his dad, he'll be a brilliant man, and maybe he will. 1 don't
know. Maybe he's brilliant now.
But you could watch Stevenson grow. Of course he had some family problems with his wife,
buthe.. .
Q: In what sense of growth?
A: Well in - now this is just my own intcrpretation - in statesmanship I guess. You could
see he was - I'm sure he was as a U. N. [United Nations] ambassador. - he was just a
national leader or a world leader. The way he handled himself and you could watch him
almost daily. Maybe he'd address the assembly at the first - the two sessions I served
under him, maybe a dozen times in those four years. You could just see his approach to
the - and his wit. And his candor and his humility.
He got beat for president I guess in 1952. IIe got beat in 1952. And we had started our
family by then but I went up on the midnight train and his headquarters and his Mansion
was open. And he made that statement that he was too old to cry and it hurts too much
to laugh, you know. And that just sounds like him, see.
I think that was one of my fondest memories, being able to watch his intellect and culture
and sociability and things of that nature because he had just - oh, he had his
detractors. He had his detractors. Paul Powell I don't think got along with him at all
but Powell was a rough and ready southern Illinois politician and - not that they're any
worse than others, hut he's just a rough and ready politician. Whether he came from southern
Illinois or upstate New York, he was just that way.
Powell himself grew in the General Assembly. Recause he could make emotional talks and
intellectual talks and he was a very very capable man. He might have been - swing at
it from the far side - but he was a very capable man.
SESSION 6, TAPE 11, SIDE 2

Q: What about some of the people who were associated with Stevenson? For example,
William "Botchy" Connors was his floor leader as I understand it.
A: Well that was in the state senate. Well I didn't know him too well. I never did mingle
with the senate. I knew Connors. Oh, I guess one term that - well they'd always come
over to the house to talk to you, and they'd come and caucus. You'd have party
caucuses. Connors and Stevenson were probably vcry different, intellectually and culturally,
and politically I guess you might say. Not that that didn't lessen their chances of saving
their soul or anything like that but they - they were just different people and T don't imagine
they had too many things in common. And I say that complimentary to both of
them. And I don't suppose that Stevenson had a lot in common with anybody in the General
Assembly, quite frankly, due to his - well I don't know - his, not that he couldn't get
along with them. He got along with them, but - and 1 guess he could come in here and
sit down with you and I and make you feel comfortable. He had that knack I thought, the
governor had. Most all of the governors - all of the governors I had had that knack.
As little as I knew Green you could feel comfortable talking to Green. IIe made you feel
at ease which is important I think. You're going in to see the chief executive of the state
and you're a freshman legislator, you probably have some - if you don't have any timidity
about you, you're a wise guy I guess. You can't go in there and tell him he's an S-0-B
even though you might think so because he's going to veto some of your legislation or not
be for proposals to help your state and all that.
That's a knack. I imagine that the people who have had the privilege of dining with the
Roosevelts and then turning around and dining with the Trumans could notice the difference
in their - because they were different types. I mean there was no question about it. And
I guess that's the credit to the world.
Like I - well you watch the news, and see that fellow that succeeded his brother as president
of Lebanon. Hell, he don't look to me like he's evcn thirty-five and there he is over here
from a strife-torn country seeking aid and walking down the White House lawn with the
chief executive of our country and you don't know what they - you've got to trust people
in this world and maybe he and Reagan have formed a - I hope they have - I know nothing
about that situation at all, and I probably don't want to know anything about that, the way
they tear up those countries.
I found Stratton to be a very political motivated governor. He seemed to know more of
the - of course I guess he was brought up in a political family. I only servcd two years
under Stratton but Eileen and I lived in Springfield about a year, or had an apartment up
there, and she'd be up there. Well we'd eat out and we'd see Stratton and his first wife
now I guess. And they'd always stop and talk. He was state treasurer then. IIe was vcry
cordial and his wife was too.
I didn't know - you know I don't know what happened to their marriage. And I guess
Bill's still around, active, where it's necessary, but he was - well you can notice the differcnt
types and I don't know who his Speaker was, T guess Warren Wood was one of his Speakers.
And Warren Wood, he was very helpful and very interesting to talk to and - in fact our
boy went to St. Bedes up in South Peru for four years to high school, and was a hoarder
up there and he had to change trains at Joliet and that's where Wood was from, and that
might have been done during my out-period too, it was some of the time. And Pat met
some of the Wood family at the station. How he met them I don't know but he told them
who he was and he asked if he knew me and it turned out to be my boy.
And they were
very . . . he had a layover that time, the train was late, and they had him out for a sandwich
or something. And those are things that you recall with reasonably good memories.
Q: Well let's see now when you went in in that session in 1947 do you recall thc caucus
for leadership that occurred when you arrived up there?

A: Well I recall - I guess they're all cut and dried I think. I imagine that, not being a
part of the inner circle at that time, that - well Hugh Green from Jacksonville was our
Speaker, a Republican Speaker. He was selected I'm sure in caucus and there was no
opposition. He didn't have any hard battles or nothing like that.
The Democratic leaders were Powell of course and you were told that they were going to
elect Powell, and there wasn't any opposition. And I think Frank Ryan from Chicago might
have been Powell's - Powell would be the minority leader, and I guess Ryan would be the
minority whip. We didn't have that many leaders at that time. I mean we didn't have
like minority whip and first minority whip. I think they've got maybe seven or eight
now. We maybe had three or four.
And at that time they didn't get any extra compensation. I'm sure that the salary was only
three thousand dollars a year, naturally it's larger now and I guess that's due to inflation
and all of that. Maybe we'd be better off if we only got three thousand dollars a year. We
might not have so damned much BS.
But I recall going to the - now this was before the election in 1946. They had all of the
candidates, all of the Democratic candidates, to a meeting at the St. Nicholas IIotel for supper
or dinner or something. Of course you had to pay a fee, and John Lauer and Harold
Klinke, who was John Lauer's brother-in-law and postmaster of Alton, they drove me
up. They were political mentors of mine. We drove up and back. And I found that to
be quite exciting because that was my first, I guess, introduction to statewide party politics.
Q: Who do you recall as being the leaders of that session?
A: Well I was trying to think. Daley wasn't the mayor yet hut Kelly was the mayor 1 guess,
and they were trying to - they elected Kennelly mayor that spring, the spring of 1947 they
elected that Kennelly mayor of Chicago. And Kennelly only served eight years and I guess
he couldn't get along with the boys.
But - oh Powell was there, and Bill Vicars I remember. And I remember Mr. Barrett, he
was secretary of state. He was the accepted leader of the party. I guess at that time Rarrett
- no, he was - he might have been auditor -- no, I guess he was secretary of state. Yes,
he was secretary of state.
Q: There were two Barrett's in there I believe.
A: Well Barrett was - there was a Barrett that was attorney general but I didn't know
him too well.
Q: Yes.
A: He seemed to be very reserved and I don't believe the attorney general at that time -
even then they had their offices over there around the Supreme Court Building I believe and
that wasn't in the Capitol complex, and unless you had business you didn't - other
endeavors to go, you didn't frequent that much hecause it just wasn't on the line of demarcation
I guess, or on your daily walk to the Capitol. You didn't go hy that - at least I stayed
at the St. Nick and . . .
Q: Well let's see. That was Edward J. Barrett was the secretary of state at that time.
A: Yes Edward J. Barrett, yes that's who - that's where I met my wife. She was an
employee of Edward J. Barrett. Yes he was secretary of state. Now he'd been a long time
- he was before and after, a long time officeholder. I think after he left there, didn't -
oh I had a fellow tell me young Don Carpentier died yesterday.

Q: Oh is that right?
A: Of course his dad succeeded Eddy Barrett, he beat him in that Eisenhower landslide by
about ten thousand votes. Very close. He had a boy by the name of Don Carpentier that
served in the senate. He had some difficulties. His boy served some time in the senate and
1 asked Senator Fister - he served in the senate and he said he thinks that he was incarccrated
too for some scandal up there in that area. He came from Rock Island or Moline in
that area. I don't know if that's correct. I didn't know him that well. As I said I didn't
hang around the senate.
But I met Carpcntier a couple of times. I went to a lot of hall games in my life and it
seems like I'd see him there every once in a while, down in St. Louis at the ball game. I
guess he just drove down with some of his friends. Of course he could go to
Chicago. Maybe he was down there on business. We'd always speak. He was
cordial. But 1 didn't know him that well. But I just mentioned that I had heard he died.
But Mr. Carpentier's dad had beat Mr. Barrett. And his dad was a longtime secretary of
state and a very cordial man. I mean when you're an elected official or a coded department
director, why, I think it enchances your, oh, your personality or your reputation if you're
cordial to legislators, and they do that or they wouldn't he there I don't think. Sometimes
they're out of sorts due to certain problems but if they're out of sorts all of the time, you'll
soon find out about it. Of course 1 guess it's that way with anyhody. If you'rc an out-ofsorts
legislator, why, you won't last long, I don't imagine. Or if you're out of sorts with
anything, you're crabby or - of course that just results from personal . . .
Q: One association with the secretary of state would have been getting license plates. Did
you do much of that sort of thing?
A: I didn't do much of that. No, no.
Q: You didn't?
A: No. Oh I think I got some people four-figure numbers or something like that. But I
know a lot of fellows, and I used to look at them, they'd come to session and be carrying
a big stack of applications. But people didn't ask me to do that, and 1 didn't offcr to do
it. I have got some but, hell, now it's so damned easy to get them. And then, though, you'd
go to the bank and buy - of course you'd pay a fee and all of that. I don't say that I
didn't like to do it, I was always dubious I guess behind the thing that some of those guys'
checks wouldn't pass. That was kind of unkind I guess. Rut I didn't do much of that. I
never made an effort to do it, and people didn't seem to ask me. It just wasn't in my
personality or line of duties to do that. Oh, I done it, but I didn't do a whole lot of it.
Hell, I know those guys from some of these different areas that do it all of the timc. And
I guess maybe they still do it.
One fellow that I got to know very well though - I want to show you this. (offers
certificate) I talked to you yesterday about those judicial conventions - now I'm kind of
rambling around - there's a notice right there.
Q: (reads) "You are hereby notified that you have heen elected as a delegate to the Democratic
nominating convention for the purpose of nominating a Democratic candidate for the
office of circuit judge of the Third Judicial Circuit. The convention is to be held at the time
and place of the attached call. James E'. Chapman, Secretary of the Democratic Central
Committee." James F. Chapman, now he was in the statehouse at one time, was he not?
A: No, that's not the Chapman. This is a local county oficial. IIe was a recorder of deeds
for years. He's a fellow about my age. He's since retired, but he's still active
politically. He lives over in Collinsville. After hc left the courthouse he served a term as

state central committeeman. Now state central committeeman included Madison and St.
Clair Counties. And there's no date on that, but that was the particular elcction that I mentioned
in Vandalia, that's where they held those conventions and . . .
Q: So you went pretty regularly to those then?
A: Oh yes. I went regularly, that's right, regularly as regularly.
Q: Yes.
A: Now the judicial district is just Madison and Bond I think, but it may have been a little
larger then. Well you'd meet a lot of people from surrounding areas that were mayhe from
smaller rural townships, met a lot of people from agriculture though.
And that's one thing about the assembly. A fast friend I have up there, and he's been here
and I've been there and our wives are socially acquainted, is Clarence Neff. He was born
about six months before I was born in 1909. And he's a self-made millionaire and he's up
at Stronghurst and I talked to him - oh I talked to him a couple of times now before the
election. I've talked to him a couple - I just know him. We used to eat together and we
stayed over at the State House Inn together and had breakfast together and never voted
together, always quarreled on the Banking Committee, but we'd laugh about it. And I was
on the County Problems Commission with him, and that's how come I got to know him.
He was always wanting me to come up to Ilenderson County. We met up there one time
in that area, maybe up in Peoria, and I went up home with him. And he took me around
and showed me his - rural communities have - well thcy didn't have many
factories. Madison County and Alton and Granite City are industrial areas. And then they
had a lot more jobs than they've got now. You could see the difference in their
problems. Galesburg was near him. Of course Galesburg was a fairly large city, and it had
- oh, problems maybe not adjacent to thc area that I represented but they ended up about
the same.
And you always found that the highways were a major problem. And I see that someone's
giving Thompson hell for not building highways. And I noticc that Reagan wants to add
a nickel to our gasoline tax and 1 imagine that somewhere along the line, whether
Thompson's governor or Stevenson, you're going to have to have - they're going to have
an increase in the gasoline tax in Missouri. You don't build highways for nothing. I mean
it takes money to build them. And that's one thing you learn.
Just like I see that our property tax out up here is - the county share - they're having
a public hearing and I'm not going to go to it, it's in Edwardsville - but they're going to
raise the county tax for 10 percent, and our taxes are getting up pretty high. And the
schools need money. Teachers want more money. If everybody would keep their damned
mouths shut for maybe five years, we could get something down to where you could get a
loaf of bread instead of paying a dollar for it. But . . .
Q: Well now you've mentioned Clarence Neff. When you reported in up therc, one of the
first things they did was seat you. Where were you seated in the . . .
A: Well when I went there the first time well at that time, why, therc was only sixty odd
Democrats. I mentioned yesterday that there was fifty-one districts. There was 153
members. And I believe the count then was cighty to seventy-three, or it might have been
eighty-two to seventy-one. So Hugh Green had a majority of about eight to ten. Or maybe
it was greater than that. It might have been greater than that. Well, of course they seat
them on seniority.
Q: Yes.

A: And you're called out and when the freshmen were called out - of course that was the
first session after the war. And you were called out to be seated on seniority, of course
as a first-termer you had no seniority.
Q: Do you recall who you were seated by that year? Who were your adjoining seatmates?
A: Well I think Sam Shapiro was one of them, either in front of me, or next to me, or in
back, so I got to know Sam. IIe was one of them. Eileen and I used to double date with
Sam and his wife, not all of the time, but . . .
Q: Was Clyde Choate elected that year?
A: Yes he was in. Yes I'm sure his first term was my first term. Yes. Of course he stayed
until he retired. He didn't get beat any time.
I$: Rack in 1947 did you find any particular blocs? Was there a division between . .
A: I didn't find it that way. The much-heralded West Side Bloc, that was there. Of course
I guess there was the Republican bloc and the Democratic hloc. But they had such a tremcndous
majority, I think they were - when you have eight or ten - it might have been more
than that. I'm going to see if I can give you that. It might make an interesting part of
the interview.
Q: Alright sir.
(taping stopped for search in Blue Book, then resumed)
A: Eighty to sixty-five. I didn't think it was that bad. I go down this list here. Hubert
Considine who was a Democrat was the first chairman with me. Leo Crowley from Peoria,
a Republican, was quite vocal.
Q: Oh? Quite vocal in what way?
A: Well about every way. (chuckles)
Q: Oh really?
A: I mean he liked to talk, he was an attorney and he was a good talker. Kind of a firebrand
and I think he - well he was just a - made an interesting talk, was a good man.
And I rccall one thing that happened when we went in there. When we were swore in, some
house member from Cook County on the Democratic side had died between t h election ~ and
the swearing-in date, and his desk was draped in black as they do you know, and that's kind
of a somber affair to see for the first time. And I don't think it was until thr Constitution
of 19'70 that they permitted people to he appointed - 1 mean once you were vacant, you
were vacant until the next election. They never had a sp~cial election or anything. I think
they have special elections now don't they? Or thcy'rc appointed rnayhc hy a county central
committee?
Q: I belicvc. I'm not sure.
A: I saw a picture of another fellow that you met that was quite a character. Hr wasn't
a member of the General Assemhly hut he was - well he was an affable frllow. (Looks
in Blur Rook) Let's see if I can find his name here - Cy Murray was his namr hut I mean
what his duties were. He was quite affable and easy to get along with and T guess he might
have been a member of the West Side Bloc. They accuser1 all of thr - I think Murray is

not an Italian name, but what those - if that's down in the Loop, thc West Side Bloc -
I wouldn't think it would be but . . .
Q: No, that was . . .
A: They were supposed to - oh, I guess be mixed up with organized crime and unorganized
crime, and they got blamed for half of the things that went on in Chicago, and I guess they
were held responsible for about 1 percent of it but . . .
I recall a lot about Cy Murray because he was always on the floor walking around and just
talking to you and everybody seemed to accept him and they'd have those dinners I
mentioned. I think he always attended, they were open to lobbyists, I think. I think, if
I recall, the cost was six dollars even in those days.
SESSION 6, TAPE 12, SIDE I
A: They moved the primary once - it used to always he in April, the second Tuesday in
April, and somebody got the wild idea - I never was for it - to move it up to June. And
we had primaries in maybe June of 1966 and June of 1968. And it just seemed like that
it was a very - it was different for me, and different for people in Madison County to go
into the polls in June when kids are getting out of school, and thc total vote was down.
Q: Why was that?
A: Well I just - I don't know why, I guess the lack of interest. On both parties the total
vote was just down. There didn't seem to be the interest. I guess they got used to an April
primary. Now maybe if they'd have left it there and not changed it, they could have.
And we went back in session in the 1969 session - I had retired from Shell, 1 was a full-time
legislator - I introduced a bill to get the primary back to April. And oh, it would get so
far and it couldn't get the votes, and I'd just put it on postpone consideration.
In your research, you will find that from filing date - we used to file early in January -
to the primary, I think it was ninety-nine days - that was by Constitution or by statute. It
was a statutory ruling. And it seemed like they weren't going to accept April. They didn't
want June. And they beat some amendments for May, and instead of going for the second
Tuesday in April, they went to the third Tuesday in March. 1 accepted that, I didn't want
June. I thought maybe March might he too soon, but too soon was better than too late
as far as I was concerned. And the Constitutional Convention was in 1970 I helieve.
Q: Yes.
A: And whether they were afraid that - when I say they, I mean thc legislative body of
a hundred and fifty-odd members, or a hundred and seventy-odd members, whatever it was
- was afraid they had too much opposition from constitutional delegates, or maybe that
election was being held simultaneously. That was the reason some of the support, it was
a nonpartisan thing. It wasn't Republican/Dem . . . it was not - it was an election, and
Bill Redmond or Lee Kennedy or Clyde Choate or Curly Harris or anybody - Warren Wood
had his own personal ideas on it. And nobody liked June. I think Bill Ilorsley was still
in the senate, and I think he might have handled the bill in the senate. It had a number
of sponsors besides myself. I was the chief sponsor, but it ended up as a March primary,
the third Tuesday in March, and I believe the primary's still there. Rut this June primary
was for the birds as far as I was concerned.
Q: Well let's see, when did the June primary come in? Was that in the early 19607s?

A: Well I think in the middle 1960's. I think if you would check in your research you would
find that we had the two June primaries in the year 1966 - they were statewide primaries
now - and in 1968. I'm pretty sure that's correct. Why somebody got thc idea - people
get different ideas you know - thcy might suggest it to them, and all ideas aren't bad and
all ideas aren't good, but somebody got a - I always called it a wild idea to move the primary
up to June, because I recall going to our first, the primary that was in June 1966.
They changed that primary in the session when the at-large election people were
there. That would be the year that Touhy was the Speaker, that would be 1965, wouldn't
it?
Q: Yes.
A: That was when the primary was changed, starting the next year, in 1966.
Q: Yes.
A: I think you'd find that's correct. And that was one of those - T always call it one of
those blue-ribbon wild ideas. It may not have been a wild idea, but it didn't work.
Q: Well the idea of course was to shorten the time between the primary and the regular
election.
A: Yes, the election time. But hell, if you're - Mr. Waggoner, if you'rc a politician, you're
politicking all of the time.
Q: So it wouldn't make that much difference then?
A: Well it might make a difference. 1 told somebody, "IIell, if you're going to move it up,
move it up to Scptember." I know there's a primary in Missouri, and I believe - isn't the
Massachusset,ts primary in September? Didn't they just have one about three or four weeks
ago? Of course I think thc April primary - well, we're used to it in the state, and it wasn't
that bad.
But T recall that in 1966 - Jesus Christ, it was hot that day - and thcrc, the vote, oh,
it was down I think - maybe you'll find that maybe the primary elections herc, now might
run twenty-five or thirty thousand for the Democratic party and maybe eleven to fifteen
thousand for the Republican party, that's countywidc now, and you'll find that maybe those
two primaries wouldn't do anything. They were down by - both partics - close to ten
thousand votes.
Well thcre wasn't any interest as I said because the kids are getting out of school and getting
ready to join their ball teams and different playground activities and we just couldn't get
the voters out. And it was a simple dato to change because no one liked it, I don't
think. Oh, not - everyone wasn't for it. But it just - they went for the third Tuesday
in March. A1 Smith got ahold of it. IIe said, "They're going to change that, Leland, to
March." And I think he might havc been one of the instigators. And I said, iiWcll yes,
it's alright with me. T don't want it in June." And hc wasn't for June.
I guess Smith and I served certain terms together. We got along fine. And he was very
ambitious. He was going to thc United States sen at^, and I wasn't going any further than
I was, I guess. I seemed to be satisfied. But we got along fine. But that - that damned
thing was something terrible. At least I thought it was.
I think I've got something here - you was talking about the cost of elections, and I had
one statement here from a radio station 1 helicvc t,hat . . . there. (proffers hill) There's
some - that W0KZ is out there. That was the 1968 . . .

Q: Oh? WOKZ in Alton, Illinois?
A: Yes.
Q: "Political time purchased as follows: Numbers of periods, 20; Duration, 30" - thirty
seconds I guess that would be?
A: Yes.
Q: "At the rate period of $3.50. Seventy dollars beginning 6/6/68, and going to 6/10/fi8."
A: Well see, that was that damned . . .
Q: The same election. Well for goodness sakcs. Seventy dollars for twenty spots.
A: Now I found it to be - now we're talking about expenses - I found it to be, at that
time, and I can't recall - I never done much radio advertising. Well, 1 did do too, but I
never had any television ads. Christ, that must bc trcmendous. Uut the station down in
Granite City, WGNU, was reasonable, more reasonable than this station.
Q: One of the big things that came up in the elections was reapportionmcnt. It hadn't been
reapportioned since 1901. And in your first scssion, 1947, there was a senatorial reapportionment
in which they evened up. There were thirteen districts established in Chicago and
thirteen downstate. no you recall that in 1947 in the senatorial district - this is for Congress
now of course.
A: Oh for Congress?
Q: Yes. I should have said congressional districts not senatorial districts.
A: I recall that yes, but - they didn't change. They weren't going to - see, that was Price's
second term.
Q: Me1 Price?
A: Yes. He was our congressman. We wcrc the Twenty-second District at that time I'm
pretty sure.
Q: Yes.
A: And . . . now wait a minute. I guess maybe they did - Price was - we went to the
Twenty-second. At that time Price represented five counties I t,hink, Madison, St. Clair and
Bond and they were smaller - the other two were small counties the size of lhd. And
I believe I was on the Election Cornnlittee at that time.
Q: Yes.
A: But that was worked, presented probably, behind-the-scenes - and I don't say that badly
of them, just like maybe they always figure Mike Madigan drew up this last statewide reapportionment
for legislative districts. I believe each party sent a man in from
Washington. I guess they must do that all of the time, but I think they did. And they
worked that out among the various congressmen I would assume, and the various county
&airmen 1 guess, and the people who were - I'm sure they had to enlist the support of
Jerome Finkle and people of that caliber, and that was done for that that way.
(Opens Blue Book) And if you'll notice it says in this book we were only in session - 1
think that was passed late, I'm sure it was passed late in the session. But it was agreed

legislation. You've heard that term before. They used to agree on workman's cornpensation,
they had agreed bills. That was worked out in conjunction with the Chicago
leaders. And &ley was not - I believe that was thc year he got beat for sheriff. He was
not on the scene so I guess - well whoever was the Cook County chairman and the downstate
various leaders, and the Cook County congressional men - we had twenty-six districts then
did we? I think that's right, thirteen-thirteen, sure that's right. See I had forgotten
that. IIell, we're going down to twenty-two now aren't we? Or twenty-four, we'rt. going to
- don't we lose two seats this time?
Q: I think twenty-two, yes sir.
A: I think we lose two seats, yes.
Q: In 1951 we lost a seat also, it went from twenty-six to twenty-five, and it was reapportioned
again at that time.
A: Didn't we have an at-large Congressman at one time'!
Q: Yes sir.
A: Sure, wasn't it Rill Stratton?
Q: Yes sir.
A: Sure. And wasn't Senator Paul Douglas' wife an at-large congresswoman at one
time? Emily Taft Douglas?
Q: I believe she was. I'm not absolutely positive but I believe that's true, yes sir.
A: But we did have - did we have two or one?
Q: At one time there were two of them, yes.
A: Sure. And you said we went from twenty-six to twenty-five in 1951:'
Q: In 1951 there was a reapportionment again.
A: Who - who got knocked off'!
Q: I don't - I don't recall. I believe it was a downstate position though.
A: Was that when they got rid of Runt Bishop?
Q: I don't know. I'm not that familiar with it.
A: I'll bet that's when that was, because .
Q: YOU say, "got rid of him."
A: Well I mean reapportioned him out. I mean getting rid of him is a - I don't nwan
that terminology to be disrcspcctful. I think he got knocked out of the box in that
time. Well reapportionment is always a difficult thing to do.
Q: Well it must have been. From 1!101 until 1947 there was none.
A: No, none at all. And I imagine you find that hard to digest or belirrr, and I find it hard
too. As I sit here you wonder what the hall thq werr doing. They atJre just letting it
go.

This is going back, and I don't have a copy of it anymore, and I think somebody found one
for me, but I didn't get it. When we went in the General Assembly, and at these, meetings
I think that the council had, we were given a hook by - it was an imaginery tale, by Itussell
Hale. And he was supposed to have been a member of the General Assembly. And it was
strictly fiction. Didn't they at one time nominate IJnited States senators at the mob convention
in Illinois in its history? And I think you'll find that that's true.
Q: I believe that's true, yes sir.
A: And he got - and of course, it's like any other convention you go to, whether it's a political
convention or a lodge convention, they generally have lobbying going on behind the
scenes. In other words, the voters didn't have the say. They sent delegates to it, and 1
suppose it was a cut-and-dried affair. I'm sure they had some deliberation.
But that book,
I'm sure that Bill Day could tell you, 1 don't know about whether Bill Hey could or not,
it was before his time, but Isakoff, he could if he was here. The llonorable Russell Halc,
I think that's what it was, and it was a book about - it was a book maybe, a hardbind
book, about that size. (Points to Blue Book) Maybe two-thirds . . .
Q: Two-thirds the size of a Rlue Rook?
A: Two-thirds the size of this particular Blue Book, they vary in size sometimes. That gave
a tremendous history of ward politics and county politics and district politics anti things
of that - a political book of Illinois. And about the mob convcntion. And he was instrumental
in getting it changed to where you had the primary elections for United States
senator. And I tried to get a copy of that, maybe even since I've left the assembly. And
someone found a copy for me down in Florida in a library down there, or some museum
of some type. The Council found - but I never did follow through on it. I don't know
why I didn't. I don't think I was even in the assembly, or I might have been working for
Redmond. I just didn't follow through, maybe sheer neglect.
But it was very interesting. It had his picture in the front. Of course it was supposed to
be his picture. Whether it really happened, whether he was a live character under an
assumed name, I think that's what I wanted to find out. But those things were quite interesting.
Q: no you have a sense or a feel as to why they finally reapportioned in 1947 after all those
years of holding it off?
A: Well I imagine that the public almost demanded it, and the press 1 imagine - I always
say the press runs the country.
Q: Oh?
A: I think maybe that they had a guilty feeling maybe, not individually but as a group of
lawmakers in the state. You were supposed to reapportion evcry ten years, and you hadn't
done it for forty years, and maybe they had a guilty feeling, not onc of crime maybe, hut
of lack of legislative decorum or duty, or things of that nature. 1 think that brings on reapportionment
all of the time, and after they do it every ten years, why, they're going to do
it, but I think that was the chief obstacle in Illinois. They were just too damned ornery
to do it I guess. I mean not ornery in the sensc that they - they just didn't do it for
lack of initiative, might be a better word to use.
Q: Did you feel an urgency at that time, that it ought to be donc?
A: Well I think that that particular session did, and I suppose it had to come from the socalled
leaders of each party, and each side of the aisle and I don't recall any particular individual
that instigated it. 1 don't recall much about it. I recall it happening now, and it

scemed like it was - who introduced it? I couldn't tell you that. But it had to b~ that
each party felt the responsibility. I suppose that that year, since the Republicans were in
control of the Statehouse, and having control of both sides of the senate and the house, that
it had to come from the executive office, from Green. I imagine he felt a responsibility to
it, and he let it filter out, at least he didn't oppose it. I guess if somebody wantcd to oppose
it, he would have been rather unpopular, because it was something that should have been
done for years, and they didn't do it, and maybe it came from the rank and file of precinct
committeemen on both parties because they thought they could pick up another political job.
And I think, with reference to the cutback amendmrnt, the house of rcprescntatives, they
seem to have gotten such a bad reputation on that last pay raise. For that thing to get
60 percent of the vote was almost unthinkable, but it got it. And they were responsible
for that, they had to blame themselves, because that pay raise they gave them was handled
very poorly. I never supported those kind of pay raises. I like to get paid for my services
too, but that was an unwise move. And just why they done it, I don't know. And there
were a lot of decent guys that voted for it. I guess they were just hopped up or
something. It was a very immature move, a very immature move.
Q: Well you seem to he implying that it should come hack. Now do you mean the cumulative
voting or do you mean the increased number or . . .
A: Well I don't see anything wrong with cumulative voting either. I know that I was a
beneficiary of it. And I guess we were the only state in the union that had it. I don't think
it was bad. I never thought the talent of the General Assemhly was lessened by curnulativc
voting. Now maybe in individual districts it was more beneficial to some fellows than
others. But there isn't that much difference I don't believe in the depth of the assemblies
that I served in, in the membership. I feel like that I could get elected without curnulativc
voting. I feel like I could win now in the 112th District. I'm not going to try. Uut I think
you've got to have some confidence in yourself. Of course somebody's going to get beat. 1
mean somebody's going to get beat hetween Stevenson and Thompson. 1 mean they're not
both going to win, and for all of the offices - Consentino and Edgar - somebody's going
to lose there and you've got to have at least that much respect for your own opinion or for
your own ability to perform.
And now the staff - getting back to that cutback amendment - the staff work will increase
tremendously. Now when I went there in the Sixty-fifth General Assernhly, we didn't have
that staff personnel. Why I don't know. We didn't meet that often and I don't know, I
always thought that biennial sessions were the bcst. If they wanted a special session thcy
could call it.
After November 2nd' they'll have a veto session and in fact I think that maybe the most
nonproductive veto session I ever served was the veto session aftcr 1 think Walker got beat,
they vetoed everything Walker done, just right and Icft, and he wasn't that had of a
governor. I mean the hills wouldn't have got through session if they were that had, and
they just - they handled him pretty rough, hut thcn that's politics. They were mad at
him. They were mad at him.
Q: You mentioned staff. Now in 1947 when you started out, you had no staff at all. Did
you feel handicapped in keeping up with what was going on because you didn't have anyone
to ...
A: Wcll of course there wasn't that much legislation. When you say if T felt handicapped,
the only thing I felt handicapped on was not being - what we had was a stenographic pool.
Q: Yes.
A: Mayhe it showed that we had, what? sixty-eight members and thc Republicans had
eighty-three or whatever the count, was. We might have had eight and they might have

had twelve in the pool. I think it would have been better if we would have had a personal
secretary. Not necessarily male or female. I mean either one. It could have helped you
handle your correspondence. I think when I left up there you had to - well I had a personal
secretary because I had some seniority. But I believe at one time though, after they done
away with the pool, they had them down to - one girl took care of three persons, and that
was better than her taking care of maybe a dozen.
I'm sure the Speaker's office had staff, and the minority office had some staff. But that's
where the Council came in. They were your staff. And they done it ably. They were
good. And that's how come I got to know the Council so well I guess. And I came to
respect them. I don't know everything.
Q: Yes sir. (chuckles)
A: You could go to the Council, they could find out for you. And I think that was their
duty, and they were glad to because that enhanced their reputation and their ability to get
a reasonable appropriation for the next session because they served you well. The Council
was a kind of a fact-finding, information-getting thing. And I always found them to be the
best agency of government I ever met. I'm sure that maybe that's not a unanimous opinion,
but it - they were just smarter than me, or they could find out things I couldn't find out.
SESSION 6, TAPE 12, SIDE 2
A: Well the Constitutional Convention was always talked about. And at that time I made
a political enemy then I think . . .
Q: Oh?
A: The secretary-manager of the Manufacturers Association, I voted against his wishes, but
I went along with the governor on it. I voted for the calling of the Constitional Convention
at that time. Stevenson wanted it and we gave him a vote, and I don't think it got through
the house, but I know that labor might have been against it, and I know that Butler was
against it, at least I think he was.
And of course he's still alive - he's about ten years
older than me. He's in his mid-eighties or more. And he's got a - he still writes well,
and he's never been too complimentary to me, but then that's just a . . .
Q: Well!
A: He tried to run for the senate on the Democratic ticket in 1934 and got beat. I was
active but I wasn't involved in his race, and I always figured maybe he thought I was. He's
been mayor. But he was - well I don't know how to say that - maybe he would be
wrong. You see now that you can't have any set opinion I don't believe on things.
I have no literature on it, but you read that they might want to have a federal constitutional
convention, to change the Constitution. Well, we've gotten by pretty well, we amended it
and - of course you'd have delegates from fifty states, and it would give you time to have
somebody pop off for maybe a year or two, and give you different ideas, but then, Christ,
I don't know. I mean 1 supported the Constitution of 1970, and the convention. The convention
call. Maybe just to keep their harping down but . . .
Q: Was that true under Stcvcnson when he was attempting to get a constitutional convention?
A: Oh yes, that was Stevenson's idea, to call the convention, either in his Sixty-fifth or the
Sixty-sixth General Assembly. He was governor four years, so he had two assemblies. I

gave him a vote because - oh, he was for it. But I don't think it got many votes. Well
he addressed the joint assembly on it. He addressed the joint session of the assembly and
he seemed pretty wise in it. And I gave him a vote.
And I don't think labor wanted it. I don't think management wanted it. I think management
is always afraid, and they have a right to be, about their tax base. You have to watch
that. They have a right to be. And I guess labor was afraid that they were going to get
maybe a twelve-hour day instead of an eight-hour day, or a return to slave labor, but they
weren't. They weren't. And I don't think the tax structure is bad in Illinois.
And this is jumping around again, but I see Stevenson and Thompson are talking about the
income tax, but hell the income tax in Illinois - 1 voted against it. But this is just a personal
- I don't see how they can get out of not having a raise in it, maybe a quarter
percent. They've got to do something, and property taxes are so unpopular.
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know if this is true, but it's been suggested that various school districts could
have a state income tax, if they got it passed, for their own use. Of coursc that might be
unwise because how would we pay the schools, they never have enough
money. (chuckles) And I think that's a rcsponsihility of the General Assembly, of the official
lawmaking body of that particular state, to see that you don't give thcm too much
freedom. Because somebody has to run the damned show.
And the temper of the leaders - some men rise above the mob, some womcn rise above
the mob, and they come up with ideas and all of that. Rut I never voted for the state income
tax because I always figured that - well once you start, you never stop. And the sales
tax, I think the municipalities now get a share, and that was a tough vote.
SESSION 7, TAPE 13, SIDE 1
Q: Now let's see, what was the illness? This occurred in 1962 you say?
A: No, 1963. See, I went hack in in the 1962 election. In 1963, why, I was still out at Shell
and - and, oh, there was some controversy about my leave, and that gets me highly nervous
and I - oh, collapsed on the floor of the house I guess in late May or early June and was
in the hospital for about a week.
But I recovered and went back to work then shortly after
the session was over. But due to my being oriented with Dr. Greening, why, he put me
in the hospital again later on and found several things. 1 had hemorrhoids and . . . and
prostate trouble and they didn't operate right away but he sent me to Dr. Fury and T think
Dr. Fury didn't operate on me until oh, late - maybe about the seventh or eighth term,
but after I had left the assembly and was working for Rcdmond, why, the first year, why,
I guess Hinkle operated on me for prostate troublc, that's what it was. I evidently rrrovered
from it, I'm still here.
I've been back to Springfield very few times. Well 1 go see Dr. Fury occasionally. I don't
see Hinkle or Greening but I see Fury because he gives me medicine for my bowels and
I go see him about, oh, every nine months or so. T'm due up there - I'll call him one day
when I come back to be treated, maybe 1 can get off to spring, he'll talk to me and I prohably
won't go back till spring. But I go see him every six or nine months.
Q: You said you collapsed on the floor of the house, was it?
A: They have had any number of guys pass out up there, you know, in the history of the
assembly.

Q: Oh is that right?
A: Oh my first time back, in my first six months of - must have been 1965, I think we
had eight guys die in six months. You check that with the Council and I believe they would
- that was an unusual high amount. I think we had a black man die - now, they may
have all not died on the house floor. We had a fellow from Charleston, a Democrat, who
was a radio announcer, and I can't think of his name. He'd get awful excited, fight
them. See, you can't fight them if they disagree with you. He'd fight them. And I don't
think he lived - I think he died in May or June. You know, I can't - he was a radio
announcer, a little short stocky guy. He was a Democrat. You'd see his face flush. He
had high blood pressure, he had a hemorrhage you know.
That's what mine was, a hemorrhage, the last time. That's what mine was. But I was able
to survive it I guess because I - well Greening put me on medicine. I faithfully took my
medicine and I walk the trail as much as I can. 1 walked the trail this morning.
Q: Down along the river here?
A: Yes. And my original walk was about a little over two miles. Most of the time now
since it's been so muddy up there, it's hard to navigate for me so I just go about a mile
and a half a day up there, what I call four-five.
Q: Well let's see. Wo had stopped before just after you had gotten up there the first time
in Springfield. Could we pick up there as to how you got - what about getting started
there?
A: Oh I'm glad you brought that up. We talked about the 1947 session. I was just getting
oriented. But in the 1949 session - I think you asked me if anything in particular happened.
Q: Yes.
A: Now that would be Stevenson's first term.
Q: Yes.
A: Not the guy that's behind the votes now, but his father. (chuckles)
Q: Right.
A: And the gasoline tax, and the raising of the truck fees, and the calling of the Constitutional
Convention, that was a big thing, it failed. But it was introduced. He was for
it. Everybody was against it at that time, the calling of a constitutional convention.
Now the gasoline tax and the raising of the truck fees both passed, maybe not in their original
form, because maybe they wanted to go five cents, and I think they settled for
three. And the truck fees, that was a hot issue because, well, the truckers were mad you
know. They were going to have to pay more money, hut they were tearing up the
road. There was a great outcry from the press. We had a fellow who had served in the
senate, and in the General Assembly too, by the name of Monroe, Jim Monroe, from Collinsville,
who was an editor of a paper. That was the old man now. He had a boy by that
name, but the boy's dead too now I think. But the old man was a fiery guy, and he was
really after the trucks. Now he wasn't in the assembly at that time, but he came hack,
I think later on, I'm sure he did. Came back in the senate. Maybe he did, oh, in 1951.
But the 1949 session - it would be Stevenson's first term - of course that may have been
the year of the oleomargarine bill too. I'm not sure whether that was in 1947 or . . .

Q: Nineteen fifty-one.
A: What?
Q: In 1951 that passed.
A: Well that - alright then, that's good, we've got something to talk about.
Q: Well now, what was your position in regard to the truckers' license fees?
A: Well I supported the administration on the raising of the gasoline tax, and of the truck
fees, but I didn't support him on the Constitutional Convention. And I still think the Constitution
of 1970 was unnecessary. But it passed, and you had the convention. But 1 think
the 1870 Constitution would have served just as well. I'm a little conservative on changing
everything. You can amend them, and do things like that but, oh, 1 think everybody probahly
supported the 1970 call because the outcry was from the puhlic. But sometimes they don't
know what's good for them either you know, when you get right down to it. I don't say
that disrespectfully of them.
But in the 1949 session, that would be the Sixty-sixth General Assembly, I supported the
administration and the raising of the gasoline tax. I think it may have becn introduced
for much more than it passed. It passed at three cents. And the truck fees were cut back
some, and I think they raised the license fees at that time too. Well you had highways
to keep you know, and to take care of. And if I recall in that session - and of course it's
never been followed through - in order I guess to take the heat off of them, passed a resolution
that the responsibility of the building and the location of highways was up to the highway
department and not the General Assembly.
I think at that time that the Kiver Road was under construction. It wasn't any further
than where we are now. Where you come up Clifton Terrace hill.
Q: From Granite City, this direction.
A: Yes. No, it didn't go that far. Route 3 wasn't there. Oh my God, no, Route 3 wasn't
there. I'm sure Route 3 wasn't - maybe just from Alton to - it wasn't this far I don't
think. But I was living on Washington Avenue and I don't believe it was this far. It went
up that far though, right away they got that far because Stevenson dedicated one of those
monuments on that - plaque, or something. Rut it was completed shortly thereafter.
The Telegraph was strongly for it. I think at that time - that's thirty years ago - that
John McAdams - he and Paul Cousley, Sr., the father of the present Paul Couslcy, wcrc
great advocates of the River Road. John McAdams was a great advocate of it because he
was somewhat of an outdoorsman. He told stories you know at Chautauqua meetings and
Roy Scout meetings, and camp. There's a Lewis and Clark Camp for Boy Scouts, I guess
it's still in service, off of the Route 100, back in towards town.
And it was at one time known as the McAdams Highway. It's called the Great River Road
now, but I believe it's got a sub-name, the McAdams Highway, in the part up to maybe
Kampsville and that area there. Rut they . . .
Q: What kind of legislative action were you involved with in regard to that Great River
Road? nid you put any hills in to support it?
A: Well we - the Telegraph area legislators - that would be Curly Harris, and I guess
Mick Mueller and Orville Hodge, of course, supported things. Wc would introduce measures
to - and appropriations, but the highway department would come up with thc final say. At
that time 1 don't believe there was any federal money available at all. Whether there was

a federal gasoline tax thirty years ago, or not, I don't know. I doubt if there was. I doubt
if there was. There wasn't revenue sharing of course, that didn't happen until later
on. There was no such a thing as that. Of course construction costs were much cheaper
and fuel was much cheaper obviously, and labor and construction jobs, et cetera.
There was the acquiring of the right-of-way. Wcll they filled that in. The Mississippi Line
filled that in. That's all fill-in. I think the biggest part of that is fill-in, with the dredging
and all of that. Now that could have been a federal project.
Q: A Corps of Engineers type of thing?
A: Yes I think so, yes I think it was now that you mention it. I guess the waterways belong
to the federal government and I'm sure that was a federal project, the dredging and all of
that, building it with their - cutting, filling it in, and doing that part and of course the
state took care of the actual construction and the building of it.
Q: Now as far as Grafton - that followed the old railroad route there . . .
A: Yes I think so.
Q: . . . the older part of that I guess didn't it?
A: Yes. They - I guess the railroads - there was some - of course that - I guess that
track's still down in Alton, it goes to - sure that's right. That railroad right-of-way was
used and there was a lot of - oh it was a big news story, areawise. The completion of
McAdams Highway was a major news story. And we were . . .
Q: You said at one time it only went as far as about here. And then it was completcd on
to Grafton, was it?
A: It was completed on to Grafton in the period that I was out. I'm sure that when I got
- maybe when I left in 1954, I don't recall - it wasn't too far up there, if at all. I think
Stevenson - in the spring and summer of 1954 he dedicated a plaque. But it was completed
mostly maybe between 1955 and 1960. I'm not sure of those dates, but I think it wasn't
completed when I left in 1954, but it was completed when I got back in 1962 and 1963. It's
completed now at the Grafton - I'm sure that's right.
Now Route 3 is a different project I believe. I don't know too much about that. That's
what they call the Berm Highway and that's being held up by litigation. They want to go
by the Alton Commons I believe and the Alton Commons is that square down there, and
there is a Landmark Association here in Alton that is fighting it, much to the chagrin of
a lot of people. But I guess they're in good conscience, I suppose. They never bothered
me, the Landmarks didn't, and I - oh I went to one or two of their meetings in recent
years in the 1970's. But they're a civic organization that have a lot of prominent people
in it and of course they get help from the mayor and the city council about their deal on
the Alton Commons.
If you come back home to go back up to Marquette State Park, you go by the flour
mill. There's always trucks down there at the bottom of State Street. You run into a lot
of trucks down there. Wcll I think the Landmarks - I think their original intention was
to put that road closer to the river and back of thc mill. Of course that would have
obstructed the mill's loading facilities. I don't know what happened to that. As you leave
the mill going into town, you know that square down there, when you come up Route 3 from
Granite City, from the depot down there, you've got to come over Ridge Street. Well it's
supposed to be completed up to meet the mill, the road either in back or in front of the
mill, but litigation has stopped that. That's what they called the Berm Highway, but that's

- that's not - there's no General Assembly action needed for that. There may be congressional
action needed.
Q: I was going to ask, I was wondering.
A: That's what they say, that the Alton Commons is not supposed to he used except for
- they say it's a historic purpose. They claim it's against the law to put a road through
there. They'd have booths and tents all around down there when they have an affair in
July, some civic affair.
Q: Kind of a carnival sort of thing?
A: Well yes, that, and they show antiques and different people bring in their sculpture
work. But they couldn't get liability insurance this year. They got to where they were afraid
that since it was under litigation that they wouldn't he covered - somehody rould get hurt
and had a big lawsuit you know, why, they'd . . . so they put it hack - if you notice on
Broadway there, as you just come by the mill there's, oh, a parking lot or two, why, they
held it in those places there. They were afraid to hold it in that particular area where
they'd held it before on account of litigation.
That's quite newsworthy in the paper, the litigation that kceps the completion of the Berm
Highway - and there was something in the paper about it the other night I believe that
they wished it would get over with, but the - oh, the press has been active in it, but they've
- I thought they always spoke of the Landmark Association rather gently. I think there's
a St. Peters family that's quite active in it, but they're all Alton homeowners or landownrrs
or businessmen or merchants or ordinary taxpayers. There's quite a suit going on about
it.
Q: Well now, this Great River Road, is it part of the - what do they call it'! the Mississippi
Parkway'!
A: I think so, sure. That - doesn't the Mississippi start in Minnesota, Minneapolis up
there?
Q: Someplace up there, yes.
A: It's supposed to follow that road down to New Orleans I believe as close as it can. It's
become a federal project now. At that time, thirty years ago when it was started, or forty
years ago when John McAdams thought about it, I gurss he was glad to see that he could
get it from Alton ten miles up the river I guess. And he probably livcd to scr it get five
or seven miles. But I imagine that Me1 Price and Paul Simon and our IJnited States senators
were responsible for legislation that then the entire Illinois delegation, arid Ihe Minnesota
delegation too, supported for the construction that lets that be. Of course I guess those
things, are they under the Department of the Interior, or would they he thosc . . .
Q: I'm not sure. I don't know what they arc at the federal level
A: Well if that would put them under there, or not, that would give them Jim Watt, wouldn't
it?
Q: Yes it sure would. (laughter)
A: He makes a lot of noise, don't he?
Q: Yes he seems to.
A: He doesn't seem to back away, does he?

Q: No sir, no sir. Well let's see, you mentioned the increase in the truckers' license
fees. Were you approached by the truckers in any way?
A: Oh no. They didn't bother me. I didn't know too many of them. Well now, was 1
approached? No, I don't think so. There wasn't too much lobbying going on. At least I
didn't know it. Now maybe over in the senate there might have been. There might have
been a feeling in the house, "Maybe let the senate take care of it." Did Friblcy mention
that in his book?
Q: Yes. John Fribley lost his seat in the senate because the truckers came down on him
after he had passed that bill.
A: Was he for it or against it?
Q: Oh he was for it. He . . .
A: He got beat over it though, didn't he?
Q: Yes. According to him they provided money to defeat him, and actually did.
A: Well they never - they never done that to me. They must have figured they could beat
Fribley. But no, I didn't get any heat from them. I would have gotten heat if 1 hadn't
supported the administration I believe, because that Monroe from the Collinsville Herald
he was quite active, and he had a pretty poison tongue and a poison press, and he was -
oh, I don't say poison disrespectfully. He could write some severe articles and it would -
well, a politician running for reelection wouldn't want him against him. I didn't I
mean. (laughs) If he done something, and he was against it, you just had to suffer the
consequences. Bond and Madison County were still in the same districts, and I would
assume that Madison County was pretty much Democratic, you had to get beat in the primary
to be defeated.
But the only thing in that 1949 session, I'm sure that's when the truck fee passed.
it wasn't. Then Fribley must have got beat then in 1950 or 1951, did he?
Maybe
Q: No, it was in the 1952 election I guess. It was 1951 that the truck license fees were
increased.
A: Was it?
Q: Yes, the 1951 session.
A: Is that when it was? When was the gasoline tax - was that in 1949?
Q: I'm not sure which that was now.
A: Did he talk about that, did he?
Q: I believe we did go into it. I don't remember specifically what he said about it. Rut
now the motor fuel tax was increased, but the big question concerning thc motor fuel tax
was really the distribution.
A: That's right. Sure, that's right.
Q: It seems that Stevenson didn't want to recognize townships and other - I guess it was
Mr. Fribley that was pushing for townships to get a, specified amount from the . . .
A: Would that be the first time then that cities and towns and counties shared in the tax
revenue?

Q: No I don't think it was the first time. No, 1 think it was a change in the amount that
they were to receive.
A: The percentage you mean?
Q: Yes I'm trying to think of the percentage it was.
A: It might have been the first time the townships came under it maybe.
Q: Well the first time that they were specifically allocated an amount. Otherwise the counties
were supposed to take care of townships in some way as I understand it.
A: Is that what it was? Yes.
Q: As 1 understand it. So do you recall anything about that particular discussion on that
distribution?
A: (pause) Well I recall one thing that Madison County - of course this had nothing to
do with the roads, but where they had - it seemed likc that wasn't agreed legislation, but
one time in those years that Madison County needed some money. Now what it was for
- whether it was for general revenue, or whether it was to keep the - at that time they
had the tuberculosis sanitorium, they do have a tax on it yet, I believe. I was always against
passing bond issues without referendum. I was that way on the city council and I'm still
that way. I think you ought to have a referendum. If they're going to raise your taxes,
you ought to get a chance - we had two or three measures on the ballot last Tuesday. And
I voted no on all of them, but my wife voted no on one of them, and to on the other. So
that's how much influence I've got.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
SESSION 7, TAPE 13, SIDE 2
A: Oh, Tom Butler, he was a manufarturer's agent. And they got the press, the Telegraph,
and Senator Monroe - he wasn't in the assembly at that time, he was out for a while -
and they got the labor organizations and they gave the county the right to issue bonds without
referendum and it wasn't a whole lot, and it was what they called agrcrd lcgislation,
and the governor - I guess Stevenson was governor at that time - he signed it and thcy
got their money, and there wasn't any increase in taxes. They paid it off pretty quick I
believe, if I recall correctly. Now that's been - that's been thirty years ago, l'm sure, in
that area.
Q: Sir, when you went up there did they still have the rolltop desks that had been there
for many many years, or had they changed to the new-type desks when you arrived?
A: Well they've changed to the new types. We might, have had a different type of desk. But
they had the roll type. I know the first time I went to see the assembly, 1 remember seeing
those. I've got my old desk. I bought it. Those desks have been changed several
times. (pause) Let me see if I can . . .
Q: They were changed of course in 1955, I know, after the election then because they had
t.o put a bunch more in.
A: Yes, that was after reapportionment. That's right. It went from 154, I guess, to
177. But 1 believe there at one time, we had temporary desks when I first went up there. I
think we had temporary desks if that - now I can he in error there, hut you mentioned

they changed those desks after reapportionment. I don't think we had the roll type desks
all eight years I was there the first time. Well I've only had the one special session, the
Sixty-fifth session that I've mentioned previous - we didn't meet a lot until the last couple
of months. I suppose they did have roll-type desks though I guess when you get right down
to it. They might have been changed between the Sixty-fifth and the Sixty-sixth
assemblies. But you mentioned about the change after that 1954 election, or 1955 - they
reapportioned in 1955, didn't they, the first time?
Q: Well let's see - it was reapportioned in 1953, hut then it had to go to referendum in
1954 because there was a constitutional change involved. So 1955 was when it actually went
into effect.
A: Yes. That's when they - did they go to 177 then?
Q: Yes sir.
A: Is that right? Is that when they went to 177? 1 know they had 177 when I was back
in. I guess it was, yes, yes I guess it was. Madison County became a district by itself didn't
it there at that time?
Q: I don't know sir.
A: They lost Bond County, 1 think that's right. Yes, that's right, and just one time later
on after the - they had another reapportionment there late in the 1970's and my last term
in office - I left I guess at the end of the Seventy-third General Assembly, we had Canteen
Township in St. Clair County in our - but it only lasted one time I believe. They took
it out. After I left they had another change in boundaries where they made the - they
only had fifty-eight scnatc districts for a long time, didn't they, for about eight years?
Q: Yes sir.
A: And they had fifty-nine house districts.
Q: That's right, yes sir.
A: And they put the senate districts up to fifty-nine, and I believe my last term in office
when I had Canteen, I'm pretty sure my last - ten years ago this Novernber was the last
time I was on the ballot and had Canteen Township that year. That was the only year I
had it.
Q: Well now back in 1953 do you recall anything about Stratton's move to have reapportionment
done? Do you remember anything about the mechanics of how it was gotten through?
A: Stratton got elected in 1952. He heat that nixon, didn't he? He beat Dixon in
1952. Stevenson was on the ticket and withdrew to run for president and Eddie Barrett
wanted it, and he didn't get it, and they put Dixon on. Well, I guess Warren Wood would
have been the Speaker.
Q: Yes sir.
A: And the Republicans would have been in control of the assembly. I'm sure they controlled
the house in those days. They controlled the senate too I would think, and my memory
is vague on that. I wonder if the Ulue Uook would say something about that. Maybe we
could get some conversation out of that. Let me see here. (looks in Ulue Eook) You see
here's that Monroc .- Monroe went in the year I left and so did Smith. There's Simon. In
fact, those three men wcrc all new in the Sixty-ninth General Assemhly. And that's Curly
Harris of course. Maybe they . . .

Q: So that was when Ralph Smith went in then?
A: He went in in the Sixty-ninth General Assembly, yes.
Q: Had you known him before he went to the . . .
A: Yes I knew him just to speak to. He'd moved from Granite City to Alton, and he talked
to me one time on the street and I was still in the assembly and he kind of kiddcd me and
said, "I'll be running against you sometime, Leland," or something like that. And I said,
"Okay, Ralph." And I was still out at Shell. Of course we didn't live too far from each
other. Now he and his wife - his widow's still over there. When we lived on Washington
Avenue he lived a couple of streets over in a new subdivision. Oh, we got along finc. Hell,
I got along with everybody. I mean I didn't always vote the way they wanted . . . (continues
to look through Blue Book)
Q: I don't recall that it says much in there about the reapportionment.
A: There's an article here on transportation.
Q: I think those are generally historical statements in there.
A: Oh I would imagine so, yes, but I can't . . .
Q: One question I had - most people don't remember - perhaps you won't, or don't remember
much about it - in 1953 the constitutional change had to do with getting into the Constitution
a statement that there wcre three parts in Tllinois. There was Chicago itself, there
was Cook County outside of Chicago, and then there was downstate. And that no districts
that were drawn in any of the redistricting as a result of reapportionment were to overlap
those lines. Do you recall that?
A: I remember that, I remember that, and that was quite a - sure, that was quite a -
in fact, that wasn't changed - did the Constitution of 1970 change that? I guess it must
have because they do it now. Sure - oh that was a hig - surc.
Q: Yes they kind of ignored that.
A: Well in the reapportionment that followed in 1955, you didn't overlap at all, see, in that
- there was no overlapping then at all.
Now where that was, it must have been up north in one of the collar counties because Tor
years, oh hell, I guess until then, until they reapportioned, if you wcnt back and aftrr the
large ballot, why, there never was any overlapping at all. Just like - well I think five districts
come into Madison County right now, five legislative districts. And Madison, St. Clair,
now you may hear this of other places too, where we're compared to Du Page and the collar
counties.
It was I guess worked out that they had a commission or something like that of senate and
house members or the senate and house leaders that got up and I believe Judge Tohy Rarry
was active in that, among other fellows. He's a appellate judge now. But the nemocrats
presented - I'm sure it was Ilemocratic legislation that led to the overlapl~ing of
districts. It was agreed so that it would pass that you could - thcrc's five districts that
come into Madison and St. Clair County - into Madison and into St. Clair.
Q: What about the Communist scare after World War 11, do you recall?
A: Wcll, that's interesting, that's a good question. Oh they had some of the damnedest
things. There was a senator, poor old Broyles. Didn't he have us - take . . .

Q: He started that in the 1951 session, that was his first bill.
A: Well, did it start then? When did we take that oath? We didn't take that oath that
year, did we?
Q: No sir. Well, you mean the legislators thcmselves?
A: Didn't we have to take an oath when we agreed to file, everybody?
Q: I don't know. I guess - I don't know. I don't remember.
A: What did they call that thing, the loyalty oath'!
Q: Loyalty oath, yes.
A: And the crazy American Legion was active. If you didn't vote for the - I think that's
- it didn't happen when I was in the first time. Now Broyles may have introduced that,
at that time.
Q: Yes. Stevenson vetoed it, is what happened.
A: Sure that's right, yes, yes, that's right, sure. That's very true, but then it was
reintroduced I guess and passed under future governors, whether - I'm sure that it wasn't
- I just don't think that Stratton would have signed it.
Oh, it was kind of silly I think. With all due respects to Senator Broyles, the temper of
the General Assembly that it had passed in - the loyalty oath that we'd take when we
- that was a big bone of contention, I think. That was finally the compromise that if a
sitting member had to take it, everybody who filed had to take it.
Now here's a parallel, this is a different aspect. The senior member in the assembly always
got first on the ballot my first eight years and when I went back it was still the same. Like
when I decided to run again in 1962, Harris got first place and a guy by the name of Miller
got in second place; I got third place. Rut I still won. But in later years after the at-large
election you had to alternate. I think in the at-large election, didn't they alternate from
county to county? I believe they did. No I don't guess they did that, but statewide ballots,
people alternated precincts I believe. Rut they got to where everybody ought to - anybody
files on the first day, whether you file by mail or in person, you have to - if say they've
got you and I and Clyde Lee and Clyde Choate and one other fellow all going to file for
state representative in a given district, we all file at the same time. They draw lots
now. They draw lots. You'd get a number and I'd get a number. I'd get number five maybe
and you'd get number one. Rut if they drew number five first, I'd be first. And then,
if you drew the bean number two, why, you'd be second. If there was five of us, they'd have
one to five beans - I think that's what they used, an actual bean with a number on it.
Q: Well I'll be darned.
A: And they get somebody, somebody from the Council might draw them now, they get some
nonpolitical person, if there is such a thing, to make the draw.
SESSION 7, TAPE 14, SIDE 1
A: Of course that hean thing was in operation before with the State Roard of Elections. nut
there's an arm of government that - you had the index department in the secretary of
state's office. And that's where you got your petitions, that's where you filed. And you

could file maybe up to midnight. You had eight days, Monday to Monday maybe. You could
file with the secretary of state, whether he was Democrat or Republican, they'd take your
petition up to midnight.
And there's always somebody with tricks up their sleeves you know. (laughs) One time
they had a big fight for state central committeeman in a Democratic primary down
here. And in that old Fifty-first District Charlie Vanpreter was trying to beat Leo
Dougherty. St. Clair and Madison County were in the same congressional districts and state
central committeemen come on the same congressional district. And they wanted to beat
Dougherty I guess. Somebody did. And Vanpreter was mayor of East Alton and well he
was - he definitely wasn't a do-gooder. IIe filed, I think, about 11:30 the last night to
file. And I don't think Dougherty suspected it. Now I'm not speaking disrespectfully of
Vanpreter or nougherty. But Dougherty, they made him fight. He had to fight for that
job. (laughs) They had him up here at meetings and he'd come to precinct committee meetings
and he'd talk like a Dutch uncle, like only Irishmen can talk I guess when he gets
upset. He got elected. He beat Vanpreter. Of course he and Vanpreter are both gone to
their reward. Those are intraparty fights you know.
Q: Sir, how wcll did you get to know Paul Rroyles?
A: Not very well at all, Mr. Waggoner. Well, as I think T mentioned before I didn't hang
out in the senatc much. I just didn't know him at all. I don't know how long he was in
the senate quite frankly. Did he serve twenty years, or how long? When did he come
up? In the 1969 session?
Q: 1 don't recall. I don't think he was there. IJe was into the sixties, the 1960's.
A: He's not alive is he'?
Q: I don't believe so, no sir.
A: Oh 1 don't think he was a wild man or nothing like that. IIe seemed to he well-composed.
I don't think 1 ever had any individual conversations with him. 1 guess I show my
character, I suppose, I think those things are more or less ridiculous, that you have to -
I think that if you follow the Ten Commandments, you don't need something like that. I
don't mean to be a religious fanatic, I think that's just - you don't need things like that. Of
course you need constitutions and you need different laws and things like that, but I would
assume that - I'm no theologian - that if everybody obeyed the Ten Commandments, you
wouldn't need any police force. Rut that's too id~ological, you'rc not going to havc that. I
always thought that the loyalty oath - now you may research the records and find out I
voted for it, but if I voted for it I voted for it to get it to hell out of the way. It was going
to pass anyway I guess.
Q: Well let's see - we've mentioned the desk up there at Springfield which probably was
the rolltop you say that first go-round. How did you arrange your desk? What did you
haw on your desk up there? What types of thing?
A: Oh I remember that, yes, I remember how I arranged them. For days on end, weeks
on end, I kept all of those statutcs right on top of my desk. They got so damned many
bills introduced you know. First the sixty-fifth and my original eight years, the amount
of hills introduced compares nowhcrc to the numbrr introduced afkr I went hack in in the
1963 session, when you went from 154 members to 177, that was a noticeable change.
Bluc Cross wouldn't accept the chiropractors one time. And the chiropractors as a group
fought it and lobbied different legislators, in a rcspectahle sense, and you had patients of
chiropractors who were your constituents, and thc mcdical profession was against it at one
time, but I think they relented. They got together, and that was permitted.

That wasn't a bone of contention a lot then because - in my first couple of legislative sessions
- because the chiropractors were coming to the front then. They were always a
profession, and they were always - well there were some chiropractors in my district, even
then, and there may have becn somc changes. There was a big change in their respectability
in 1951 or 1953, or maybe 1949 or 1947 - not 1947, but I think after 1949, rnaybe 1951 and
1952. There was a drastic change in the acceptance of them by the medical profession and
the General Assembly in legislation.
Q: Wasn't there a move to regulate them more at that time, bring them under regulation?
A: Well there was, that's - well there was, sure, that's right. What did - what happened,
do you recall'!
Q: I don't know
A: We didn't pass legislation detrimental to them, did we? Didn't we . . .
Q: No there was some - something about grandfathering - there was some thousand or
so, or something that . . .
A: Sure. A practicing chiropractor didn't have to have the qualifications that a new man
had. That was a great - the grandfather clause has always cut into any legislation to protect
that - there wasn't any grandfather clause on the truck fee or the gasoline tax though
I don't think. (chuckles)
Q: No, no sir.
A: I have friends that are pharmacists and, and particularly there was one, and I think he's
dead now. They had a fellow working out at Shell that was an apprentice pharmacist that
had worked in a drugstore maybe twenty years on his days off and things like that and could
read prescriptions, and was a crackerjack, and I suppose there may have been a hundred
around the state. I don't know that there was - that would bo a limited number, or a
fair number, maybe two hundred. Well there was a grandfather clause for that and the
pharmacists accepted it, that anyone who had been an apprentice druggist for ten years or
something like that, if he took the state board and passed it, he'd be accepted. And I think
that was the same thing with the chiropractors, you had to pass the state hoard, or whoever
gave it, I guess the R and E [Registration and Education]. Maybe a group of chiropractors
gave it and group of pharmacists gave it under the supervision of the Registration and Education
I suppose and that's how that came.
Well we done away with the JP's [Justice of Peace], didn't we, bark in 1949 1 believe. I
can still remember that. I thought he was going to beat me up, a Judge Clark downtown,
he was - oh he's since long gone. They done away with the police magistrate and he was
an elected police magistrate. And the justices of peace were elected officials with maybe
not even high school educations. Not all of them had it, I don't say that - I'm sure some
of them did. Some of them maybe had somc legal experience but the JP and the police
magistrate at that time weren't lawyers and now they have to be. That came under the
Judicial Act.
Q: Well now that was in the early 19tiO's, 1961 perhaps or 1963 when that was finally -
I think it was in 1961 and then it was . . .
A: Did we vote on that - was there a referendum on that? Sure.
Q: A referendum in 1962 I think that passed that amendment yes.
A: Yes. That's right. That was one of the Gateway amendments wasn't it?

Q: Well, I haven't heard it . . .
A: Judicial reform. We could amend the Constitution . . .
Q: It was a change in the Constitution. Now the Gateway Amendment was back in -
passed in, what? 1949 or 1951 right in there. Do you recall anything ahout the passage
of the Gateway Amendment?
A: Well was that the amendment that gave us the power to change the Constitution by twothirds
votes or what?
Q: Right. It reduced the requirement for the number of . . .
A: Well I recall that. Sure, we go back to the constitutional convention. The Gateway
Amendment at that time was supposed to have takcn the place of tho constitutional convention
that Stevenson wanted so bad.
Q: Oh I see.
A: And that was a compromise I think that the Gateway Amendment came out of.
Q: How did you keep track of what bills were going to bc up, what were coming up? You
had a calendar I think that . . .
A: Well you had a calendar and - later on, in order to take care of the - this didn't happen
my first or second session, you had an indication of the day before what was going to be
called that day. That came much later. Well we just had the calendar and you would listen
to debates and read your various legislation, and the calendar was increased in size as the
session wore on, but there wasn't . . .
Q: How useful was the [Legislative] Synopsis and Digest that came out weekly?
A: Well they were good. I referred - I'd forgotten about that. Surc thcy werp good and
I - that was the responsibility of the - was that Finkle's outfit'! or was that . . .
Q: Yes, Finkle's.
A: Yes, that was good. You had that - I'd forgotten about that. I don't havr any of those
left. Boy, each - hcre's something now that you mentioned that. When I first went there
I think that - I know they done that - every sitting member of thc assembly got a set
of statutes, you know. That was a fringe benefit and I learned to read that fairly well and
you could look up and see what - I studied that. As I mentioned in my first srssion I
had five months of free time, and I learned to read thos~ statutes. I'd take mine and go
down to the library and pore through it and, oh, I sought help. I had different lawyers
that I knew that I would check with and - but . . .
Q: What would you look for while you were reading the statutes?
A: Well - in that Synopsis, didn't they give the revision of what the bill done'! They -
sure they said something - did you ever see one? T'm surc you did.
Q: Yes.
A: Didn't they - Rill 102, House Bill 102, they carricd it undcr their synopsis of what -
I mean, didn't they give you - before thcy gave you the synopsis, they gave you thc nurnher
and the page and the line and the verse it was changing, didn't they?

Q: Oh I see.
A: I think they'd do that. I think they still do that.
Q: So you would then refer to the statute.
A: Yes. I learned that and 1 was always pretty able to catch on in my younger years and
I could listen and decide, and of course it would he discussed in party caucus and I believe
in party caucuses and T believe if you're not going to follow the decision of the caucus that
you should tell them so. And as time wore on there were always debates in caucus but
you generally came out of there with a pretty clear cut idea of what you were going to do.
Q: Did you have any good luck charms that you put on your desk?
A: No. No I never did. No 1 didn't have anything that - I said my prayers I guess. I
don't have any now. I have a St. Christopher medal in my car, in both of our cars, I have
that.
Q: I see, yes sir. (chuckles)
A: No I had no good luck charm. No, I guess gws do, but I didn't have. We didn't have
offices then of course. We didn't have offices for a long time.
Q: Well how did you go about traveling back and forth to Springfield normally?
A: Oh I rode the train the biggest part of the time. And as I've mentioned I rode the bus
a couple of times. I'd go up the night before the session and hack . . .
Q: Were there people you rode with normally?
A: I'd see Harris and Hodge occasionally. I think Hodge always rode the forward car. I'm
sure he did. Hodge was a freer spender than I was. John Ilewis, who later on became
Speaker, and a Republican, and a very learned man I thought. He and I got along fine. And
he paid me a terrific compliment. He said, "Leland," he says, "you're a good public
official." And I'll always remember that because I needed that compliment that day. Of
course the trains were running very frequently then and he'd come in from wherever he
lived, I guess in east Illinois, and come into St. Louis and get the Chicago-bound train. And
I'd meet him on it. It just seemed like we'd - not intentionally - he'd be on there and
I'd be on there. I didn't know him at first. I didn't know everybody you know, 154 guys. I
thought, "I've seen that guy before."
And hell, it took about seventy minutes to get to Springfield and they'd bring coffee through
then in those days or we'd go into the cafe or cafeteria - or whatever they called - it
wasn't a dining car. They might have had one, but they also had a canteen - and
talk. And he was a farmer, and he was just an auctioneer and he talked like one, and he
was a very interesting man and I had a lot of respect for him. My original acquaintance
with John Lewis was made not on the assembly floor but in traveling back and forth to
Springfield. Now 1 didn't ride back with him too often. Maybe the train 1 caught didn't
make connections in St. Louis with his train, so he'd go at a different time.
SESSION 7, TAPE 14, SIDE 2
A: 1 think at that time - well I'm sure that some air traffic was on but most everybody
came by train. I really believe that the fellows upstate - oh I'm sure there was some drove,
but I believe the bulk of the General Assembly came by train. That would have to be above
Springfield. 1 suppose those below Springfield in most cases drove up. But Chicago always

had the, I guess, biggest delegation and the collar counties just came into Chicago by RTA
[Itegional Transit Authority] I guess, if they called it that then, and come down on the
train. I think that's the way most of them came.
But I traveled the train. I didn't drive very much at all. In fact I don't like to drive that
much. I would prefer to ride the train. I rode the train a lot. I was courting my wife
and had dates with her on the weekend and I'd drive out to the station - hell, I could get
on - when I went to Springfield for a number of years there was five trains north and south
and I believe the roundtrip was three dollars.
Q: Well!
A: And you couldn't begin to drive up to Springfield and back for three dollars. And now
it's just I think, for senior citizens, fourteen and a half, and with gasoline over a dollar a
gallon, and have to stop to get something to eat, you can't do it for much less than that,
I don't imagine if you could do it for that. Of course if you're going to take your family
up, you can't, but I think there's a 25 percent discount for senior citizens on the train now,
on the Amtrak between Chicago and St. Louis, and you've got to buy your ticket - well
I guess you can buy them on the train now, on the 5:30 train, the ticket office isn't open. It
might be open now, they've changed the hours out there, since the energy crisis I guess train
traffic has increased.
Of course I worked for Rcdmond for four and a half years and I always rode the train and
I very seldom drove, very seldom. I did drive of course, not all of the time. I've driven
up and back in my life, but it's a practice I don't like.
Q: Where did you stay in Springfield?
A: We11 the first scssion I think 1 stayed at the Abe 1,incoln and then I went to the St.
Nick, and ended up at the Governor, what the Empire was then I guess. I stayed at the
Abe Iincoln and went to the St. Nick and stayed thcrc till 1 left. And when I went back
up, one session I stayed at the Elks. My second session I stayed at the Elks for about three
or four months. I roomed with Harry McClintock who had married a girl that lived in my
precinct. He was a Republican. He was from down in the same district Choate was. He
later on became director of publir welfare, under Stratton. What has the state hospitals'!
as we referred to them at that time, what did they call that?
Q: The Mental IIealth I believe had that.
A: Thcy called it that? Then he was director of that under Stratton, I think he had that
job for eight years. He got beat the same year I got beat in 1954. IIe got heat in the general
election. But that was kind of a swing district and I helieve that year it was a two
Democrat and one Republican dist,rict. But 1 roomed with him at, thc Elks and then I went
back to the . . .
Q: How did you come to meet him at the Elks or wherever?
A: Well his wife's parents lived in the old Nineteen Precinct,. Crystal, his wife was a Crystal,
and the Crystals only lived two blocks from us and, hell, I'd lived there all my life, and
they'd lived there all their life. They were friends of my parents and they just told me t,hat
IIarry McClintock, who was elected the same time I was, was married to their
daughter. (chuckles) And 1 got to know him. We were congenial and we just had a room,
there was double beds. I think that went on a lot to cut down - we didn't get any per
diem, all we got was mileage. That went on a lot for a number of sessions. Fellows that
could get along with each other.

Talking about lodging, 1'11 always remember that I believe the first hlack member to be permitted
to go in the Springfield hotels - was it the Sixty-fifth session? - and he was a brilliant
man, chairman of the Appropriations under Speaker Hugh Green. Dwight Green was
the governor. I believe his name was Jenkins. Let me see if I - can I check that out'!
Q: Yes, sure.
(Taping stopped for search in Blue Book, then resumed)
Q: Yes, Charles J. Jenkins. And what was this about him now'! Ile was the
A: Well I think he was the first black legislator to hreak the color line in hotels.
Q: Oh? Yes.
A: Now there are other colored men in this book, but I believe they all stayed with Ncgro
families. And he was the first one, and I think the Abe Lincoln broke the colored line.
Q: Well they never broke it with the Ahe Lincoln. The reason I know that is because
Corneal Davis has talked about that. And the way they broke it was with Jenkins here,
but Corneal Davis you know didn't appear to he colored. So he could go up to the desk
and sign in, before they knew what had happened, why, he would be in the room and he'd
take the other black person with him. So . . .
A: Oh is that right? I didn't know. Well was it - did they say they broke it with Jenkins'!
Q: Yes, right.
A: In what hotel, Abe I,incoln?
Q: No, the St. Nicholas.
A: St. Nick. Yes. I guess he did stay - didn't - in those days, that most of the
Republicans stayed at the Abe Lincoln and the Democrats stayed at the St. Nick?
Q: Yes sir.
A: But that's right, he did break it at the St. Nick. That's very correct.
Q: Yes. Because they tried at the Abraham Lincoln and were never able to. So Corneal
Davis says that he then told the guy that he was going to see the Abe Lincoln destroyed,
and he went down that Sunday when they blasted it there in Springfield. Do you rememher
when they blew it up and tore it down?
A: Oh did he? Of course that was after it was figured - oh is that right? (laughter) Well
that's interesting. If you run into Corneal sometime, if he remembers me, be sure to give
him my regards.
Q: Okay.
A: Sure.
Q: Well let's see now. When did you first meet Corneal Davis?
A: Well, then I suppose. IIe was quite an orator. I guess Corneal must havc been born
in the nineteenth century. Would that be right? It doesn't give it here, hut he . . .

Q: I think in 1900 if I recall correctly.
A: Oh was he? Oh well, he'd bc just eight years older than me. I always supported the
FEPC [Fair Employment Practices Commission].
Q: Oh you did?
A: Yes. I got a lot of hell for that.
Q: Oh? From whom?
A: Well my constituents, none the less. Not a lot of hell. (pause) Well as I mentioned
that there were a number of Negroes in my aldermanic district and that word nigger was
not permitted at our table. It was never uttered in our house as I can remember. My dad,
in his younger years, hired a lot of them at the glassworks, as a day foreman at the
automatics. And later in the closing of his career he worked with a lot of them at the Federal
Land. I don't know why, I guess it's from parental bringing up, I had no ethnic problems.
I still don't have. I didn't have then.
In mentioning that, I became quite a friend of Senator Hall's and he was reelected last Tuesday
down in East St. Louis. His opponent was a very fine Caucasian lady by the name of
Sissy Steele. She has been in leadership in the house, and she ran against Kenny, and there
was, oh, there was some racial overturns, but Tuesday night about ten o'elock 1 called Hall
at his headquarters. I see him a lot, talk to him, hell, I've talked to him a, half a dozen
times since the election. He's been out to the house, he and Mrs. Hall, and 1'11 go down
to his Christmas party. Rut I called - he said, "I'm doing fine," he said, "my East St. Louis
returns are just in." Now listen to this - he heat Mrs. Steele 11,000 to 500 in East St.
Louis.
Q: Oh is that right? My goodness. (laughter)
A: The Globe Democrat, it mentions that. The next day in the (;obg it just mentioned that
some of the precincts were as high as 200 to one.
Q: Gee whiz. Well! (laughter)
A: And he was - well he's a real fine man. And she is. And I'm sure that - oh she
called him the next day, and naturally she was disappointed but she's one of thr grand
ladies. And he's one of the grand Negro members of the senate. Of course everybody don't
like him. He's got some opponents that - everybody don't like everybody.
But recalling about breaking the colored line, I may have mentioned this before, but Hall
used to come up to eat. He hasn't come up to Alton since I've been out of it, but he used
to come to Alton and have lunch with me and we'd always eat down at the Stratford
Hotel. And I - I suppose when you eat there at noon that the Negro patrons of the hotel
arc not too many, but Mrs. Gaylord who owns the hotel, she broke the colorcd linc, and
I told Kenny - we were eating there one day - and 1 says, "See that lady thcrc, Kenneth,"
I says, "Senator." I called him senator. He likes that word senator.
Q: Well.
A: I says, "She's the lady who broke the colored line in this hotel." And you could just
see him beam. And well, stories that he told mc about his boyhood, and his wifc's in
particular. His wife's father came up from Mississippi to go to work in the packing plant
before the race riots. They had race riots in East St. Louis I think hack right after' the
World War 1, after the original World War I. And after he saved sonic money, why, he
sent a money order home for Kenny's mother-in-law to hring her two little girls up. I nlct

his wife's sister. Of course they were just six and seven or five and seven. And they went
to the post office to pick up that money order and the postmaster threw it on the ground
and Mrs. Hall, his mother-in-law, had to kneel down to pick it up.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: Now those are things that - those are stories that come - and not all whites are that
way though. Not to condemn them of civilization, it's just passing off interesting bits that
you've heard from minority groups.
But I never had that trouble. I mean I always laugh at Jaffe - he looked at me, and I
says, "Jaffe, I don't have any ethnic problems," and he said, "Well you don't," and we just
went on. But that's just another story of the career in the General Assembly.
Q: Who was Jaffe?
A: Jaffe. Representative Jaffe. He's in the house now. He's a very liberal Jewish
member. He's the guy that introduced the original legislation and got it passed to cut the
drinking age I think to eighteen. Didn't we have that on the books for a couple of years
and they took it off?
Q: Yes.
A: That was Jaffe's bill. I said, "Jaffe, you're going to get in trouble." But he got it
passed. But it didn't work out, and I think it's up to twenty now. Is it, or is it back up
to twenty-one?
Q: I don't know. I haven't . . .
A: It's - it's been changed. I think it may be beer for twenty and hard liquor for
twenty-one. Of course it's violated I'm sure, and some fellows - but most of them I guess
that have legitimate stores make kids show their driver's license or their draft card or something
like that you know.
Q: Yes.
A: But Jaffe - oh, Jaffe, he's - Aaron Jaffe. IIe - he'd - I always called him Pope Aaron
the First of the Skokie.
Q: Because he was Jewish? (chuckles)
A: He was. Oh, I guess there was a bloc of Catholics that supported him, or some guy called
him Pope. He was telling me about it, and I busted out laughing at him, and I said, "Okay,
Pope Aaron the First," and he'd just laugh and go on, you know. And I got to know him
pretty well though, Jaffe. His office was near mine in the closing legislative career. We
got along fine. But he was a great liberal and an attorney and a very sensible man.
Q: Speaking of another Jewish person that was there while you were there, in the other
house of course, Senator Saltiel. Ilid you know him pretty well?
A: Not too well. But he stayed at the Lincoln the year I did. I've eaten with him. Ile was
a short fellow. He was a very energetic person and I used to like to converse with him. 1
had conversations with him, not maybe just over legislation, not in any general terms of
ideological things or anything like that. I knew him and he was - did he get - did he
run for state office? That name rings a bell. Did he . . .
Q: No I don't - don't believe that he did, no. He was in the senate.

A: I remember the Jewish lady that became an alderman, what in the hell was her name?
Q: Saperstein?
A: Saperstein. She served in the house and served in the senate, and I used to meet her
on the train. She had a daughter I believe in St. Louis and she'd go south on trains I'd
be going home on. This was when I'd gone hack in. Is she still around?
Q: Oh yes.
A: Is she still on the Council?
Q: No, she's with the Department of IIealth now. She's doing kind of public relations work
for the Department of Health there in Chicago.
A: City or state?
Q: City. City of Chicago.
A: Is she?
Q: Ycs.
A: Wrll shc seemed very knowledgeable on that particular field of legislation. Was she in
the house and senate both?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, and she went on the rity council, and she left the council. Esther Saperstein,
sure. She used to ride the train down with me, yes.
Q: One thing I recall about Mrs. Saperstein, one bit of legislation she handled was the move
to increase the student mandatory education age from sixtecn to eighteen. It was a Kerner
mcasurc, but she handled it for him. Do you recall that particular bit of legislation? It
failed in 1965 I guess, and again in 1967. I believe those were the two ycars. It coul .d haw
been 1963 and 1965.
A: Now 1965 would be - that passed the house though didn't it? It got beat
senate. That's the at-large election.
in the
Q: I'm not sure. I don't know exactly.
A: Yes, sure, Arrington was hot for that I think in the 1965 - she was in the house then.
Q: Yes. I'm trying to think when she did move to the senate. I'vc forgotten what ycar.
A: 1 think she was in the housc then.
Q: T believe shc was at that time.
A: Tn the at-large election I think she was in the house.
Q: Yes.
A: Shc wasn't in the senate too long I don't think.
Q: T think she spcnt three terms there if I remember correctly.

A: Oh did she?
Q: Yes.
A: Well some of those people had a two-year term you know, on account of the constitutional
change and reapportionment and that. There was a group of senators that had a two-year
term. I didn't think - she might have been, I don't know, hut I think that particular piece
of legislation - well I think it went through thc house because we had a big majority and
it was a - you mentioned a Kerner proposal'!
Q: Yes.
A: It would have passed the house then because we had all - we had 118 members to fiftynine.
Q: Oh?
A: And it only needed seventy-seven or eighty-seven or whatrvcr it was and it could get
that through the house. And I recall that but I think that was - I think Arrington was
president of the senate at that time, and - he's dead, isn't he?
Q: Yes.
A: He was born in Gillespie and he lived in Alton for a short time.
Q: Well I'll be darned.
A: 1 may have mentioned that, when I first met you, that he used to kind of chide me about
living in Alton. Rut, oh, he was a brilliant man and a self-made millionaire I guess. And
quite controversial hut - whether he was controversial or not - he was just on the opposite
end of the political pole and spectrum and just . . .
Q: Did you get along alright with him?
A: Oh I got along with him fine. Hell, I'd see him at breakfast, he and his 1 guess supposed
lady friend. I got along with him fine. And I remember this about him, he always asked
me if I was going to win. IIe said, "Did you do alright? Are you going to do alright? Are
you going to be able to make it?" And, "Hold on to your seat." And I'd say, "Yes, Senator,
I can, I think I can do it."
Talking. about different people that you met along the way, there was a newspaper reporter
- when Stratton got elected to governor, he was down in Alton, Stratton was, running
against - he and maybe Dixon made a joint appearance. Anyway 1 went to it. I think
Curly Harris and I went to it. And 1 guess IIodge was there. And 1 don't know whether
Mueller was there. I went to it. And John Dreiske - doesn't his boy work in one of the
code departments as a - as a - well maybe he works for the attorney general, he might
work for the attorney general.
Q: I believe I've heard that he works someplace . .
A: But he asked me, he said, "Are you going. to be able to win'!" We always had primary
fights, Harris and I did, T guess they were out to beat me, but they didn't beat either one
of us. And I said, "I think SO." That was the year Stevenson was running for
president. But Dreiske was in the party and he said that Stratton was going to get elected
governor. But there was a big political rally in Alton and I guess they were all there, in
1952, in the fall of 1952, mayhc in October. And Dreiskc was one of the reporters that was

with them. Stratton was there I'm sure, and Dixon came latcr - Dixon was the Democratic
candidate for governor that year.
But Arrington would always question me. Well I'd see him on the floor or in the rotunda,
and I could get along with him. He had a receptionist that I used to sec and speak to a
lot and I guess she's still there and she was always cordial to me, and 1 never popped off
to her or demanded to see anybody and I guess there's no excuse for bad manners, Mr.
Waggoner, I don't think. There's no excuse for bad manners. I mean I think you get more
by being kind to people. I mean that may not always work that way hut I think it's best
that way.
SESSION 8, TAPE 15, SIDE: 1
A: During the 1946 election Hodge and a man by the name of Schuyler Vaughn were the
Republican candidates and Harris and I were the Democratic candidates. And Rill Burton,
who I guess was the titular leader of the Democratic party in Madison County, in his heyday
quite controversial, he said, "You ought to go up and sec R. 0. Cooper. Cooper was with
Eddie Barrett at that time. Mr. Barrett was secretary of state and that's who Eileen worked
for. And I went in there to sort of keep Curly from getting as many bullets, as we called
them, single shots, and I went in to B. 0. Cooper to introduce myself and his receptionist
happened to be my wife, and that's how I met her and one thing led - I got elected, and
then - and when I started dating her and here we are. (chuckles)
Q: Well. What is her background? She came from where'! the Champaign area?
A: Yes, Philo, Illinois.
Q: Philo?
A: Philo, Illinois. Her name was - she was Eileen Cain and her family were farmers. Her
mother's family were farmers and her father's family came from Ivesdale and her mother
came from Philo, Illinois. That's out in Champaign County about ten miles below the
Champaign-Urbana area. I had many a glorious moment at Grandma Cain's. T guess
sixteen of the years that we were married before she died, before Grandpa died, we'd go
up a lot, and I'd always go visit the university and go in the library you know, just nose
around and learn what I could learn. T met a lot of people up there, and in the at-large
election 1 got a pretty good vote in Champaign County.
I remember I used to kid Jim Ronan about that. I'd say, "Tlon't put too nlany Kennedy's
on that ballot,'' on that bedsheet hallot as they'd call it. They had John Kennedy on it, 1
think he's still alive up there in - he's an industrialist. He's a nice fellow. But in 1964
I got a fairly good representative vote out of Champaign County.
Q: And she had been raised then in that area?
A: Yes she was born and raised in Philo, Illinois, which is in Champaign (hunty. And she
went to work when she was fairly young, in Springfield under Ed Hughes. IIer mother was
a Dailey and the Daileys were somewhat active in Philo in the township elections, and county
elections and things like that. I think one of her grandfathers had been on the county hoard
and I think my father-in-law's dad had served on t h county ~ board. And of coursr IJrhana
is the county seat. And my fathrr-in-law was raised in Ivesdalc, and in those days, why,
they rode the train from Ivcsdale to Ilrbana. And he'd tell about his (lad going in to county
board meetings. And onc of my wife's uncles was a township assessor in one of thosc
townships. One of my mother-in-law's brothers was a rural mail d~livtvr at one time.

And a lot of those people are all gone with one exception, her Aunt Margaret is still alive
in Philo. And in fact she was talking to her last night. She's well in her nineties but they
keep in touch with her. But they were just dirt farmers is all they were and . . .
Q: Where did she go to school?
A: Well she went to the Catholic schools in Philo, and then at that time they had a Catholic
high school in Philo, she went to high school there too. It's all tore down now. And then
she took a business course in one of those business schools in Champaign. My brother-inlaw,
he and his wife are both U of I [University of Illinois] graduates, and he went away
to - all of the Dailey or Cain men - all of the boys, all of her uncles, almost to a tee,
went away to Catholic boarding school, high schools. Some of them went to St. Bede's at
Peru, and some of them went to St. Mary's out in Kansas. Rut they've all gone now. My
boy went to St. Bede's up at Peru and I think my brother-in-law did too. And I think several
of Eileen's - she's in the third generation - a lot of the third generation went to St. Rede's
and a kt of the second generation went to St. Mary's out in Emmett, Kansas. I think that
school's closed now, and I believe St. Bede's is closed too I think, on account of I guess no
enrollment. They used to be boarding schools but they - I guess inflation does away with
a lot of those places.
Q: Where did she go to school after she completed high school in Philo?
A: Well she went to Champaign to one of thosc secretarial schools, that's all. She just went
for a year or two. I'm not sure how many though, maybe two years, that's all. She didn't
go to college, didn't go to the U of I or anything like that. Her brother did, but none of
the girls did.
Oh she's got a sister in Danville. She was talking to her last night too. She's an RN [registered
nurse]. Went to St. Mary's hospital in Danville and of course she lost her husband
about ten years ago and she's a widow lady. And she's got another sister down in Florida
that worked as a secretary in Chicago but married and went down to Florida. We hear
from her down in Tampa. We hear from them occasionally. And she has another sister
that's not well, and she's in a nursing home over in Highland and she was over here this
week too. We keep in touch with her. She comes over here maybe every third month for
a weekend or something like that.
Q: Has she said why she decided to go work in Springfield?
A: Well, the only reason I can give you is that I said - there wasn't any jobs in Philo I
guess - I had said that the Daileys were active in politics and I guess that's why she went
to work in Springfield that's all. She just I guess took it for granted that she could get
a job in Springfield. So that's where she went right after she was out of school. And she
saved a little until she met and married me and then came down here.
Q: And that marriage occurred in 1949?
A: Nineteen forty-nine. We were married at the Cathedral church in Springfield. Father
O'Hara married us. He's not there anymore. He's in Rosewood lleights. We werc marricd
at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception on Sixth Street there May the seventh, 1949.
Q: Where did you go on your honeymoon?
A: Starved Rock.
Q: Oh you did? Well I'll be darned.
A: We had a lot of fun, a lot of fun. I must laugh at that because I got to know Dan Walker
pretty well. And whcn he was thinking about running for governor for the second term

or something like that, I met him out in the hall and he got to talking to me or something
- I wasn't in the assembly then, I was working for Redmond - and he says, "I'm going
to have a meeting at Starved Hock." And I busted out laughing. And he says, "Why are
you laughing?" And I said, "Why hell, that's whcre 1 spent my honeymoon, that's all." I
haven't been hack since.
Q: Oh is that right.
A: I haven't been hack since. How we come to pick that T don't know. We just went to
Starved Rock, that's all.
Q: It was just close, huh?
A: Well we only had about three or four days. We were in session and that's why we
decided to go there.
Q: Do you remember when you decided to get married?
A: I guess the minute I saw her, T suppose.
Q: Oh really'! Wcll! no you remember when she accepted'!
A: Oh I don't know. I had a lot of trouble I guess. 1 don't know.
Q: Wcll! (laughter)
A: Not right away.
Q: Wcll. Well then, what did you do? set up housekeeping in Springfield then'!
A: No. My mother was still alive and we lived in a duplex house - I lived in a duplex
house, either one side or the other side, for 720 months, sixteen and a half years, so that
would be 726 months. We just come down and moved in next to my mother and we lived
there for - well until we moved out here.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Yes. Moved to where we live out here from 926 Washington Avenue. Well this house
wasn't quite completed and we took a little house in that Upper Alton neighborhood for six
months before wc came out here, that's all. No we lived right there all of the time, our
kids wcrp born and raised and went to school there and graduated from high school there
and everything else.
Q: Well, let's see. Patrick was the first boy'!
A: Yes. He was born October 10, the same birthday as Adlai. October thc tenth,
1949. And Maurine was born August 28,1954, right up there.
Q: Where did they go to school'!
A: Well they went to St. Patrick's grade school. Pat went away to srhool. And Maurine
went to St. Patrick's grade school, and then went to the Catholic high school, Marquette
High School, in Alton. Rut Pat wcnt to St. Brdc's, hr lat~r went to Springfield Junior College
for a c.ouple of years. And he transferred to SITJ [Southern Illinois IJnivwsity] at
Edwardsville. Of course hr was living at home and whrn hc went up to Springfield Junior
College he lived with a - I guess it drove him crazy. There was an Antontllli fanlily -

I believe there's a lot of that family in Springfield - he stayed there. I was in session. I'd
see him a lot and take him out for supper. He was always broke of course.
Whether he went a year or two, I don't know. I guess he went two years at Springfield
Junior College and then in the summer, why, he got on down at the glassworks, and he
worked - he always worked. Pat always worked. The summer of 1941 when he went away
to school, he worked at a gun club across the river. And he worked down there on Route
3. We went by there when we came home from the retreat that way. We hadn't went that
way, but I noticed when we come home that - he worked for Conoco down there one
summer. They put in a big blending plant down there and he worked in that general area.
He worked for Conoco. But he's with the Bass Specialty Company now and he's got a pretty
good job. Pat's quite an outdoorsman. He hunts and fishes, and he's a good handyman
around the house, and things of that nature.
Q: Where does he live now?
A: Springfield, Missouri. Down - well he works right in Springfield, Missouri, down on
Hampshire Boulevard. We've been down there a couple of times. He married a girl from
Grant Park, a Huber girl, and she's a very good wife to him. They have two children. Her
parents go down there a lot. We don't go down too often because it's more than a day's
drive, and you bother the kids when you stay overnight too much. We've been down there
several times though but. . . . He comes home. He and Barbara come home a lot. They'll
visit the Hubers first or us last and then take off or vice versa, it all depends upon their
mood. They come home two or three times a year. Michael, he's the oldest grandson, he'll
come up every summer for a couple of weeks. I don't know if he's eleven or twelve. He
just had a birthday November seventh. What birthday it was - I guess the eleventh or
twelfth.
And my daughter's children, they're here in town and they'll be out this weekend. They'll
be out this weekend, I guess they will, if we can stand them. They're five and
seven. They're quite a handful.
Q: I see. Well let's see now. You set up housekeeping here in Alton. Did your wife stay
in Springfield then any length of time after you were married? Did she work there?
A: Oh a very short time, a very short time, until we got prepared and got settled with the
house. They had to do a little remodeling on the duplex house, put in another bathroom. A
very short time. And she could have worked - before Pat came, she could have worked
- 1949 - she worked about three months in the 1951 session for the secretary of state's
office. But I didn't think much of that idea, so we just decided to call it quits and come
on home, that's all. Pat was born . . . October 10,1949.
Here's something I hadn't told you.
money, and I wanted to keep going.
When I got beat in 1954 and 1955, well I needed some
I had read an ad in the paper that some fellow had a little vending route that he wanted
to sell. It was over in the east end of the county, part of the east end of Madison County
and the west part of Bond County, and well, I had to laugh at myself. It was a vending
business that sold razor blades by vending in motels. Of course at that time the motels
weren't as fabulous and as sophisticated as they are now. And, oh, I put eighteen hundred
dollars in the original investment and I could see that it wasn't going to pay off and I had
an understanding with those people that if - they returned over 50 percent of that money
and I went - some guy said, "Why don't you get some cigarette machines?" So I bought
a couple of used cigarette machines down in St. Louis and went to the National Vendors
then and got a couple of good machines and, oh, at one time I might have had, oh, I guess
a couple of dozen machines, but they'd fluctuate too. There wasn't none around Alton or

Godfrey then and all over on the east end of the county and in those little townships over
there and that part of Madison that Bond County bordered.
Q: Now when you did this vending, was that in addition to the job at Shell?
A: Oh yes. I only had to service them one day a week, or maybe some of them didn't sell
enough cigarettes. In filling stations or in taverns you had some good stops. It wasn't
densely populated place where the machines were, didn't have the traffic that you'd have
in Alton or in Granite City. I had none there, or in a large population area, or in densely
populated areas. Oh I guess if I sold - oh, I don't know, I probably never had a month
when I ever sold over two hundred and fifty or three hundred cartons of cigarettes.
But I made a little money at it. My daughter was young enough to go into preschool out
at the convent. And Pat was in the third or fourth grade and I made enough money to
pay my expenses and I always put a little away so we'd have something to take a vacation.
I've always done that, every year until they were in high school, we always went some
place. Generally went up north, went out east. When Jack Kennedy's year - in 1961 when
he was inaugurated, we didn't go to the inauguration - we went to Washington that year.
Sometimes when I had a - you'd lose a stop and then you might pick up a stop, and I
couldn't handle those machines by myself, and I always picked somebody from the department
to go with me and I'd give 'em something.