Jack Battuello Memoir #1 - University of Illinois Springfield
Jack Battuello Memoir #1 - University of Illinois Springfield
Jack Battuello Memoir #1 - University of Illinois Springfield
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<strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong><br />
Norris L Brookens Library<br />
Archives/Special Collections<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> <strong>#1</strong><br />
B322. <strong>Battuello</strong>, <strong>Jack</strong> (1899-1980)<br />
Interview and memoir<br />
4 tapes, 291 min., 77 pp.<br />
COAL MINING AND UNION ACTIVITIES PROJECT<br />
<strong>Battuello</strong>, coal miner, discusses his participation in the Progressive Miners <strong>of</strong><br />
America, its activities and leaders, and helping to write its constitu-tion; also<br />
working conditions in <strong>Illinois</strong> coal mines <strong>of</strong> the 1930's, union activities, black<br />
lung disease, and the Mulkeytown march. He also discusses living conditions for<br />
miners, community response to miners, union leadership, women's support, and<br />
violent protests.<br />
Interview by Nick Cherniavsky and Bobbie Herndon, 1973<br />
OPEN<br />
See collateral file: interviewer's notes, pamphlet describing charges brought<br />
against <strong>Battuello</strong>, and obituary<br />
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144<br />
<strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong><br />
One <strong>University</strong> Plaza, MS BRK 140<br />
<strong>Springfield</strong> IL 62703-5407<br />
© 1973, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> Board <strong>of</strong> Trustees
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
PREFACE<br />
This manusc-ript is the product: <strong>of</strong> tape recorded irrterviews conducted<br />
by Nick Cherniavsky and Bobbie Herndon in April, 1973.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> was born September 21, 1894 in M,t. Olive, <strong>Illinois</strong>.<br />
As a coal miner in the thirties he helped write the constitution for<br />
the Progressive Miners' Union. He was later expelled from that<br />
union. Coal mining conditions, union activities, and the Mulkeytown<br />
March are the Focus <strong>of</strong> this memoir. Mr. Battub110 provides a first<br />
hand eyewitness account <strong>of</strong> a most interesting period in <strong>Illinois</strong>'<br />
and labor history.<br />
Readers <strong>of</strong> this oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is<br />
a transcript <strong>of</strong> the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator<br />
and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style<br />
that is inherent in such historical sources, Sangamon State Uaiversity<br />
is not responsible for the factual accuracy <strong>of</strong> the memir, nor<br />
for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge,<br />
The manu~cript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be<br />
reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanjcal,<br />
wi,thout permi.ssion in writing from the Oral Ilis~ory Office,<br />
Sangamon State <strong>University</strong>, <strong>Springfield</strong>, <strong>Illinois</strong>, 62708.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
TABLE OF CONTENTS<br />
-" ?~<br />
Children in the Coal Mines<br />
Mine Accidents<br />
Concerns and Unions<br />
John L. Lewis<br />
Industrial Workers <strong>of</strong> the World<br />
Progressive Mine Workers Formation<br />
Thc Mulkeytown March<br />
Union Membership<br />
Witch Hunts and Detecioration <strong>of</strong> Progressive Miners<br />
Company Towns and Poor Conditions<br />
Bribes<br />
Sit-down Strike at No. Four Mine: Superior Coal Company<br />
Taylorvillc: Peabody Coal Mines<br />
Black Lung Discase<br />
The Walnut Creek Disaster<br />
Tony Boyle and Arnold Miller<br />
Labor Support <strong>of</strong> Viet Nam War<br />
Mu1.keytow1-1 March - Recap<br />
Factionalism: Progressives and United Mine Workers<br />
~iners' Convention, Benld<br />
Caravan to Franklin County<br />
I.W.W.<br />
Miners<br />
Community Response to Miners<br />
Women's Role<br />
Ambush on Caravan<br />
Return to DuQuoin<br />
The Coulterville Encampment<br />
Charges Against <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
TABLE OF CONTENTS<br />
-<br />
Progressive Miners' Officers<br />
DvQu0i.n Aftermath<br />
Ray Edmvnds - United Mine Worker<br />
MOVE! to Chlicaga - work for Teamster<br />
DuQuoin Recap<br />
Opposition to Radical Positions<br />
Union CooperaKion<br />
Local. Reac'ti.on Co Caravan<br />
No Investigati,,on Followed Mulkeytom<br />
Federal Hearings on Miners<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong>, April 16, 1973, Brighton, <strong>Illinois</strong>.<br />
Nick Cherniavsky, Interviewer<br />
Q. <strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> is presently rctired. In the past, <strong>Jack</strong> has been<br />
involved in many different events and we will touch briefly on many<br />
different facets <strong>of</strong> <strong>Jack</strong>'s life and career. However, this interview<br />
will. be primarily concerned with <strong>Jack</strong>'s participation and membership<br />
in the coal miner's union and his activities as a member <strong>of</strong> the Progressive<br />
Miner's Union during the internal. struggle within the miner's<br />
union.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong>, for the record will you please give us your name, your age, and<br />
your address.<br />
A. My name is <strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong>. I live on Route One, Brighton,<br />
<strong>Illinois</strong>. I am 74 years old.<br />
Q. Would you tell us when and where you became a coal miner and<br />
what being a coal miner involved in those days?<br />
A. I became a coal miner at the age <strong>of</strong> thirteen in the State <strong>of</strong> Iowa.<br />
I come from a family <strong>of</strong> six, my father was a coal miner. Conditions<br />
were bad in those days and I had to go into the mine at the age <strong>of</strong><br />
thirteen in order to augment the income <strong>of</strong> the family. This was in<br />
thc early periods <strong>of</strong> the United Mine workers' history and the union<br />
was not too well established at this point. Although we had a union,<br />
the struggle still continued for recognition, not only valid recognition<br />
<strong>of</strong> our union hut Ear the conditions Tn the mine. The operator<br />
was reluctant to settle grievances, he was reluctant to improve the<br />
working conditions. It seemed they were only c~ncerned with making<br />
money, and therefore, our union was involved in constant struggle with<br />
the employer--with thc coal corporation--to see to it that we received<br />
some consideration.<br />
Q. You mentioned that you joined the coal miners at the age <strong>of</strong> thirteen.<br />
Was this an exception or was the practice <strong>of</strong> hiring teenagers<br />
widespread in the industry in those days?<br />
A. In this period, where<strong>of</strong> 1 speak, it was not the exception for<br />
young children to go i.nto the coal mine or to work in the coal mine,<br />
either in the s<strong>of</strong>t coal industry or in the hard coal industry. Many<br />
children started to work at ten in the coal mine, and as I have said<br />
it became a necessity to take the children into the mine because the<br />
father could not provide the wherewithal to get food. Generally<br />
throughout the mining industry, in this period, chi1,d exploitation<br />
was the normal condition.<br />
Q. In your recollections, what can you tell us about how the work<br />
<strong>of</strong> children--teenagers like yourself when you joined the coal miners--<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Eattuello 2<br />
did it interfere with schooling? What was actually the process <strong>of</strong><br />
children working and trying to at,Lcnd school at the same time?<br />
A. 1 believe that my case is a very good example <strong>of</strong> what occurred to<br />
all <strong>of</strong> the children with regards to schooling when they went to work.<br />
When we went into the coal mines, schooling ended. Our chief occupation--our<br />
main preoccupation was coal mining and we had no time, and<br />
neither did the school districts have any arrangements for our extra<br />
studies--or side studies--or whatever you want to call them,<br />
Q. <strong>Jack</strong>, I know you well, personally, and I know that you are a man<br />
<strong>of</strong> high intellect and widespread fields <strong>of</strong> interest. Nevertheless,<br />
would you please tell US at what stage did you complete your schooling?<br />
A. My schooling ended be,tween the fourth and fifth grade.<br />
Q. Would this be, again, typical for youngsters who are working in<br />
the coal mine to end their education at this stage?<br />
A. Yes, it was.<br />
Q. And T thin.k it would bc correct to observe that for many people--<br />
notwithstanding your particular case--that meaat that the educational<br />
process itself and mentd enrichment <strong>of</strong> a person also ended at that<br />
point. In other words, they were not capable <strong>of</strong> going beyond that<br />
level <strong>of</strong> education. Would that be correct?<br />
A. As far as academic pursuits were concerned, our education ended,<br />
But practically speaking our education began when we went down into<br />
the coal mine.<br />
Q. What kind <strong>of</strong> work did young people <strong>of</strong> that age do in the coal<br />
nine? Were they performing different casks other than rhose performed<br />
by grown-ups or was there no division between the different age groups?<br />
A. Children generally <strong>of</strong>ten we-nt into the mines and worked with their<br />
fathers or some relative, and they performed adult work.<br />
Q. Was the monetary compensati.on uniform Ear the grown-ups and the<br />
children or was there any difference?<br />
A. With one exception, yes. The children who were working with<br />
their father at the face <strong>of</strong> the coal were only given half turn. For<br />
instance, the full turn or a full day's production for one man, an<br />
adult, would be eight cars. A child working with his father was<br />
entitled to another four cars, half the amount <strong>of</strong> the adult. Ny first<br />
wage when I started in the mine was 95C a day.<br />
Q. 1 know, despite my very little knowledge <strong>of</strong> mining operations that<br />
mining operations continue to this day to be a very dangerous and<br />
accident-prone operation. Howcvcr, I imagine in the. days when you<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> Battuel.10<br />
went down into the mines for<br />
greater. Is this correct?<br />
the first time the dangers were much<br />
A. Now, in this early period, about which I speak, the conditions<br />
were not only hazardous, but the negligence on the part <strong>of</strong> the company<br />
was notorious. I'd like to believe that conditions in the. mine have<br />
improved in the modern age, and under federal statutes, but I'm<br />
afraid that it is still very much a hazardous-a very hazardous<br />
occupation.<br />
Q. The accidents; the loss <strong>of</strong> life, loss <strong>of</strong> limbs, the maiming <strong>of</strong><br />
people who were working underground; I imagine was very widespread,<br />
is this correct?<br />
A. Thar's correct.<br />
9. Would you say that the accident rate among the youngsters was<br />
greater, about the same, or less than among the grown-ups?<br />
A. On an equal basis. 1'd like to make an exception, however. As<br />
the unions began to gain strength and power there were many areas<br />
within the United Mine Workers' jurisdiction in which the militancy<br />
<strong>of</strong> the miners was perhaps a little greater than other sections, In<br />
those cases the conditions in the mines were fairly well determined<br />
by the militancy and the concern <strong>of</strong> the miners, and therefore, conditions<br />
and fatalities and even injuries were on a smaller scope.<br />
Q. Were the teenagers or chil.dren being admitted to the union membership<br />
in those days?<br />
A. Oh yes, full membership,<br />
Q. Now, wou1.d you think back and give us a nutshell view as to what<br />
your views--and perhaps as much as you can speak for others--the views<br />
<strong>of</strong> the miners in general; what they thought <strong>of</strong> their union, why they<br />
wanted to be members <strong>of</strong> the union, what th,ey expected the union to<br />
accomplish for them; more in this vein.<br />
A. Primarily, we bccamc union members because <strong>of</strong> necessity, We were<br />
seeking, plainly speaking, to escape from exploitation and slavery.<br />
Q. Again, thinking back with respect <strong>of</strong> the views which had gone by<br />
since that time, would you fcel that the unions in general--and<br />
specifically the miner's union--have properly and collectively<br />
fulfilled the miner's expectations <strong>of</strong> them?<br />
A. No, I don't. I'd like to make this comparison between the early<br />
cditinn <strong>of</strong> the miner's union with it's present conremporary counterpart.<br />
In those days the miners, and all <strong>of</strong> the workers for that<br />
matter, were gravely concerned about the social issues. They were<br />
concerned about providing a proper living far their families. And<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
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they were as a result more militant, more concerned, more aware, more<br />
interested in unions. And because <strong>of</strong> that awareness on the part <strong>of</strong><br />
the rank and file, we kept our leadership fairly in line with the<br />
objectives and aims <strong>of</strong> the union.<br />
Q. You would say then that in those days--to use the term esprit de<br />
corps was much more present among the miners--there was much dedication<br />
to the growth <strong>of</strong> the union, much dedication to the growth <strong>of</strong><br />
the rank and file than these is today?<br />
A. Very much more, very, very much marc. I have omitted to reply to<br />
the second part <strong>of</strong> your question. Today in the miner's union--1 don't<br />
mean like this moment today--but up until the recent election the<br />
miner's union became-well, like all other unions <strong>of</strong> today, they<br />
became a tool and a pawn. They became a part <strong>of</strong> the establishment<br />
and they lost sight <strong>of</strong> their objectives and their social concerns,<br />
and therefore the reason why wc're beset with so many economic and<br />
political problems . . . oh hell, 1 started and then I got lost.<br />
Q. All righr:. The name and the impact <strong>of</strong> John L. Lewis on the labor<br />
movement in this country, and his participation in thc organizing and<br />
the original formative years <strong>of</strong> the miner's union are well known and<br />
are very controversial. You took part in the labor struggle <strong>of</strong> those<br />
days, and you have had personal contact with maay rank-and-file members<br />
<strong>of</strong> the unfon and with many high <strong>of</strong>ficials <strong>of</strong> the union. Would you<br />
care to go into this area, starting with John L. Lewis and then ending<br />
with anything else that you feel would be <strong>of</strong> value to this particular<br />
area <strong>of</strong> the interview?<br />
A. John Lewis undoubtedly contributed greatly to the miner's union,<br />
but in later years Be became enamored with the delusion that the<br />
miners should be dominated rather than directed. Therefore he proceeded<br />
to destroy the autonomy <strong>of</strong> the miners, as well as ro deny them<br />
the right <strong>of</strong> seferend~m. As a consequence, the United Mine Workers<br />
lost thousands and thousands <strong>of</strong> members, became practically helpless<br />
in the struggle for the improvement <strong>of</strong> the coal miners. I would<br />
concede that John Lewis, his later departure from the objectives <strong>of</strong><br />
the union were in part responsible Tor the apathy <strong>of</strong> the rank and file.<br />
That's the way the United Mine Workers went when John Lewis became<br />
the virtual dictator <strong>of</strong> the union. I mean dictator because rhere was<br />
no right <strong>of</strong> referendum, there was no righr to elect your <strong>of</strong>ficers,<br />
and as a matter <strong>of</strong> fact that's what led to the secession <strong>of</strong> the<br />
<strong>Illinois</strong> miners in 1930 from the United Mine Workers.<br />
Q. Would you describe John L. Lewis in overall analysts <strong>of</strong> his impact<br />
on the union, despite whatever positive or degative qualities he did<br />
possess, but overall, would you describe him as positive or negative<br />
leader, and influence in the union?<br />
A. In his early leadership <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers, his record<br />
was positive. In his latter tenure <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>fice, it became negative,<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
it became disastrous as a matter <strong>of</strong> fact.<br />
Q. Have you ever had my personal contact with John L. Lewis? Did<br />
you know him personally?<br />
A. Oh yes. At conventions, both state and national conventions, I<br />
was personally acquainted with John L. Lewis. At many occasions, T<br />
talked to him and members <strong>of</strong> his Executive Board, and usually f was<br />
caught up in the imbroglio <strong>of</strong> the dissent when we, the rank and file,<br />
seeking to bring about the organization <strong>of</strong> the mass-producing industry,<br />
John Lewis was usually gavelling us down. It is interesting to note<br />
that when he gavelled US down and sometimes excluded us by his gendarmes<br />
from the convention, that in later years, he adopted the idea<br />
<strong>of</strong> mass organization for the mass-producing industry. A little belated,<br />
but he subsequently did agree with what we were trying to do many<br />
years before that.<br />
Q. Have you cver met Mother Jones or any other--well, f don't want<br />
to use the term secondary--but nonetheless not quite-as-well-known<br />
leaders <strong>of</strong> the miners who were active in those days?<br />
A. Yes, 1 met many <strong>of</strong> them. I knew Morher Jones-l was not too<br />
inrimately acquainted with hcr. I knew Eugene V. Debs, I knew Dick,<br />
the famous Socialist--I've got to add that. I knew Big Bill Thompson<br />
nf the IWW. I knew Ralph Chaplin, the editor <strong>of</strong> the. Industrial,<br />
Worker, and the poet <strong>of</strong> the industrial workers, I knew oh, a great<br />
number <strong>of</strong> them throughout the period <strong>of</strong> my career. I 'knew William<br />
Green, President <strong>of</strong> the American Federation <strong>of</strong> Labor, met with him<br />
in many conferences--he was the President and I was the board member<br />
<strong>of</strong> tlie Progressive Miners.<br />
Q. Big Eill Haywood?<br />
A. Yes, I wasn't too well acquainted with him, but I heard him speak<br />
many times.<br />
Q. Okay, it comes out now that you also were acquainted with a number<br />
<strong>of</strong> people, you mentioned a number <strong>of</strong> names <strong>of</strong> the organizers <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Wobblies, the Industrial Workers <strong>of</strong> the World. Were you ever a member<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Wobblies?<br />
A. Yes, 1 was. f became n member nf the IWW, or what is commonly<br />
known as the Wobblies, in 1916, when I made the harvest fields because<br />
them was no work in the coal mines. I became a field delegate for<br />
the IWW.<br />
Q. In whar state were you involved in your membership in the IWW?<br />
A. In the harvest fields in the wheat producing states, and Tn the<br />
logging camps <strong>of</strong> Idaho, Washington, Oregon.<br />
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Q. Those are the areas that--even with my Limited knowledge I know<br />
and <strong>of</strong> course you from personal involvements recall--where same <strong>of</strong><br />
the very violent confrontations have taken place in the history <strong>of</strong><br />
the TWW. Would you like to describe some <strong>of</strong> those events?<br />
A. Yes. During the time when I worked in the harvest fields in<br />
Oklahoma, in Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota and up into Saskatchewan,<br />
Canada, there was much hostility towards the IWW, on thc part<br />
<strong>of</strong> the farmers. There were many occasions when the farmers acted co<br />
suppress the IWW by ruthlessly arresting the members <strong>of</strong> the ZWW, by<br />
beating them up, by many other abuses. It's hard to believe, it's<br />
hard to believe some <strong>of</strong> the things that occurred during that period.<br />
There was times when they would apprehend J'WWs, search them and find<br />
an IWW card on their persons. Then the farmers woul,d form a gauntlet<br />
and strip the victim <strong>of</strong> his clothes and make him run the gauntlet,<br />
all the while he was bcing beaten, running through the gauntler.<br />
There was one occasion when they compelled the victim to run the<br />
gauntlet, all the while being beaten and they were not satisfied with<br />
that form <strong>of</strong> brutality. They caused him to run aver a railroad guard,<br />
which was a construction <strong>of</strong> stcel with points to keep the cattle from<br />
going into, going across onto he Lracks, caused him to run over this<br />
obstruction, this pointed obstruction, barefooted while he was being<br />
beaten again.<br />
In the logging camps, there wasn't a week passed that rhere wasn't<br />
some confrontation. Many <strong>of</strong> them, like in the Verona case that<br />
happened in Vancouver, British Columbia, Vancouver, Washington,<br />
Shahamus, Washington, in which the IWW hall was invaded by a marching,<br />
demonstrating American Legion parade. The hall was broken into, the<br />
IWW members were shot and two <strong>of</strong> them were killed and the ringleaders--<br />
1 believe four in number--were sent to the penitentiary. At this<br />
moment I can't give you all <strong>of</strong> the details, but I would recommend to<br />
anyone who is interested in this problem, in chis phase <strong>of</strong> the IWW,<br />
to read the book, the pamphlet, "The Blood-Stained Trail."<br />
Q. Were you at all involved, or were you familiar with, the vigilante<br />
action in Bisbee, Arizona when some twelve hundred IWW members,<br />
miners, were gathered up at gunpoint, placed on a train and taken out<br />
for illegal detention in the desert?<br />
A. No, I was not in that state when rhat occurrence happened. f'm<br />
knowledgable about that affair, I know all about it. I know some<br />
members that were shanghaied into the desert, beaten up and Left to<br />
die.<br />
Q. Havc you ever had a chance to meet the martyrs <strong>of</strong> the Wobblies--<br />
Frank Little, Joe Hill or any other people--who had died in the struggle<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Industrial Workers <strong>of</strong> the World?<br />
A. I di.d not know Joe Hill personally. hll I know about Joe Nil1<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
is his history and I did not meet Frank Little.<br />
Q. As we know, the Industrial Workers <strong>of</strong> the World after quick expansion<br />
in the first few years since they had been organized--following<br />
the trial <strong>of</strong> some hundred plus top leaders <strong>of</strong> the union--have almost<br />
completely diminished in number and today it's almost only a paper<br />
membership union. Would you care to comment as to why this union<br />
failed in its objectives?<br />
A. I'm going to give you a short answer on this one. The failure<br />
<strong>of</strong> the IWW as well as the failure <strong>of</strong> che Socialist movement, as well<br />
as the acceptance <strong>of</strong> the. doctrine <strong>of</strong> anarchism, and that appl.ies as<br />
well to many other lesser liberal organizations, is primartly because<br />
the American people are under the delusion that somehow or other they<br />
can beat the system and become capitalists. And that explains, Sn<br />
great part, why the labor movement is a failure today.<br />
Q. Since we have touched briefly on your membership and your participation<br />
in the Wobblies, I would like to come now to the discussion<br />
about movements within the United Mine Workers--which was perhaps as<br />
militant as the Wobblics were in their--in which you have been personally<br />
involved and I am speaking <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Mine Workers.<br />
Would you please take over from this point and describe what has<br />
caused the Progressive Mine Workers to be formed, the levels and the<br />
degrees <strong>of</strong> your personal involvement in this, and the eventual outcome<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Progressive Mine Workers movement?<br />
A. During the time when John Lewis was in the process <strong>of</strong> dismantling<br />
and destroying the autonomy and the right <strong>of</strong> referendum within the<br />
United Mine Workers, there was much dissent, particularly on the part<br />
<strong>of</strong> the <strong>Illinois</strong> miners. It's too lengthy to describe the legal maneuvers<br />
that took place hcre, in trying to block John Lewis from destroying<br />
the autonomy <strong>of</strong> the <strong>Illinois</strong> miners. All the autonomy <strong>of</strong> all the<br />
other coal-producing states had already been destroyed. Trustees<br />
had been appointed by John Lewis to all the local unions in those<br />
stascs and all <strong>of</strong> the state <strong>of</strong>fices, as well as the Executive Board.<br />
But the <strong>Illinois</strong> miners held out and continued to resist John Lcwis'<br />
destruction <strong>of</strong> the autonomy <strong>of</strong> the nincrs. And as I said, much litigation<br />
on the part <strong>of</strong> our state organization, with the support <strong>of</strong> the<br />
rank and file in <strong>Illinois</strong> to prevent John Lewis from destroying our<br />
autonomy. And this entailed many legal maneuvers and expenditure <strong>of</strong><br />
huge amounts <strong>of</strong> money and eventually, John Lewis declared an emergency.<br />
This emergency had to do with a scale reduction from the $6.00 a day<br />
scale to the $5.00 a day scale which John Lewis was recommending.<br />
The <strong>Illinois</strong> miners were opposed to this, but they had the right <strong>of</strong><br />
referendum which had not yet been destroyed in <strong>Illinois</strong>, and that<br />
referendum was held. On the day when the ballots were being counted,<br />
at the close <strong>of</strong> the counting on that day, the ballots were placed in<br />
a safety box in the First National Bank <strong>of</strong> <strong>Springfield</strong>. During the<br />
night someone stole the ballots. The next day we knew, from the<br />
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reports <strong>of</strong> the tellers, that the referendum was going against John<br />
Lewis. The wage reduction was being defeated and we suspect, as a<br />
matter <strong>of</strong> fact we know, that someone by the authority <strong>of</strong> the United<br />
Minr Workers, stole those ballots. We petitioned, the <strong>Illinois</strong><br />
miners immedia.tely petitioned, for another referendum, John Lewis<br />
denied that referendum from another balloting and declared an emergency,<br />
declared the $5.00 a day in effect; whereupon we seceded from<br />
the United Mine Workers.<br />
Q. What was the date <strong>of</strong> the time when you seceded from the United<br />
Mine Workers?<br />
A. I can't give you the specific date now, I don't have my records<br />
here.<br />
Q. The year?<br />
A. Approximately 1930.<br />
Q. Would you describe TO us please, what had taken placc following<br />
this action on the part <strong>of</strong> the <strong>Illinois</strong> miners?<br />
A. We formcd an ad hoc committee immediately following the declaration<br />
<strong>of</strong> secession--prior to the formulation <strong>of</strong> the constitution and<br />
the <strong>of</strong>ficial naming <strong>of</strong> the organization-and this committee then<br />
decided to canvass the state by marches, by demonstrations, leaf-<br />
Zeteering and other methods, to get the support <strong>of</strong> the other miners<br />
in the state <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong>. This resulted in, later on, vhat has<br />
become known as the Mulkey,town march. It consisted <strong>of</strong> a caravan <strong>of</strong><br />
about, well, the caravan was at least thirty to forty.mi1.e~ 1.ong.<br />
And we proceeded with this caravan, en route to Franldin County which<br />
had not yet given its vocal support to the Progressive Miners or to<br />
the struggle against John Lewis. As Frank Fries has already stated,<br />
that march was stopped at a little town by the name a£ Swanee and<br />
searched by the <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the state and county, and when they did<br />
not find any weapons, even as much as a knife in that entire caravan,<br />
they permitted us to proceed on ,to the county. When we were ambushed<br />
at the location <strong>of</strong> the Mulkeytown River and hence has it become known<br />
as fhe Mulkeytown march. We failed in that instance <strong>of</strong> entering the<br />
County and persuading the miners <strong>of</strong> Benton and Franklin and Harrisburg<br />
and all <strong>of</strong> those coal-producing towns. But later on, <strong>of</strong> course, by<br />
different methods, we did penetrate the county and we held secret<br />
meetings in those vicinities. But we never did get: the miners in the<br />
southern part <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> to come out in full support <strong>of</strong> our stsugglc<br />
in the formulation <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners.<br />
Q. What were the casualties that were sustained by your people in<br />
this march?<br />
A. Well, there was many, many, many injuries, many wounded. Every<br />
car in ,the caravan was literally destroyed with ball bats. Of course<br />
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when the caravan was shot into by, as Frank Fries explained, by sckoolkids--they<br />
employed and gave them ammunition and rifles and they<br />
stationed themselve~ in the wooded section and ambushed us--<strong>of</strong> course<br />
we left the cars and fled. During our absence they demoli~hed every<br />
car and they destroyed all <strong>of</strong> the food we had. We had anticipated<br />
in remaining in that county for a week or so. And so, as I said,<br />
that particular instance our demonstration and our march was a failure.<br />
Q. flow many people, approximately, par,ticipated in the march southward?<br />
A. Frank has given the figure <strong>of</strong> two thousand. I would say that there<br />
was probably four thousand in that particular march.<br />
Q. Frank Fries, that <strong>Jack</strong> has mentioned a few times in this interview,<br />
was the subject <strong>of</strong> a previous interview today. He is an old friend<br />
<strong>of</strong> <strong>Jack</strong> Bartuello and participated in many mining activities in addition<br />
to his also being, at one time, a congressman from this district<br />
and a sheriff <strong>of</strong> Macoupin County. <strong>Jack</strong>, would you give us please<br />
approximate numbers as to the membership at the height a£ the Progressive<br />
Mine Workers Union activities in <strong>Illinois</strong> as compared to the<br />
United >fine Workers membership in <strong>Illinois</strong> in those days?<br />
A. At the height <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners movement, our membership<br />
comprised <strong>of</strong> approximately twenty thousand active members with an<br />
additional ten thousand inactive members, or what we call exonerated<br />
members. This compared with the United Mine Wnrkcrs membership, oh,<br />
I'd say about sixty per cent Unitcd Mine Workers in control <strong>of</strong> the<br />
state mines and forty per cent Progressive Miners.<br />
Q. You would say then, that there were about some forty to fifty<br />
thousand United Mine Workers members in the state as compared to<br />
twenty to thirty thousand Progressive Miners,<br />
A. Yes, that's including the exonerated members, however. We must<br />
keep in mind that during rhe mechanizarion period, that: began about<br />
1930 on a large scale in most <strong>of</strong> the large producing mines in <strong>Illinois</strong>,<br />
that there occurred a great displacement <strong>of</strong> manpower, so thercfore<br />
many <strong>of</strong> the miners became exonerated,<br />
Q. What was your personal involvement and participation in the Progressive<br />
Mine Workers in <strong>Illinois</strong>? Were you a rank and file member,<br />
were you on the level <strong>of</strong> local 1-eadrrship, were you at the top leadrrship?<br />
Would you care LO go into this, please?<br />
A. I was both. I was a rank and filer, I have served as a mine<br />
committeeman, 1 have served as a Chairman <strong>of</strong> the Ruling Committee<br />
during the development <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners, I have served as<br />
a Board member <strong>of</strong> District Six, I was a member a£ the scale committee,<br />
and I was a member <strong>of</strong> the first constitutional convention. I helped<br />
write the first constitution <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners.<br />
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Q. Weren't you also President <strong>of</strong> one <strong>of</strong> the local . . . ?<br />
A. Oh yes, I forgot that. I served two terms <strong>of</strong> Local No. One which<br />
was the largcst local union <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners and, by the<br />
way, the largest local" union membership for one local in the United<br />
States. 11: had 2500 members. And it's rinteresting to note at this<br />
point that the Pacesi.dent <strong>of</strong> thTs large local, comprising 2500 members<br />
be included for two terms, was paid the magnificent sum <strong>of</strong> $7.50 a<br />
month.<br />
Q. Would you care to describe now as to why, in the final. outcome,<br />
the Progressive Miners did not achieve their goals? Also, what would<br />
you think had happened to the United Mine Workers had the Progressive<br />
Mine Workers been able to carry through with their proposed reforms<br />
and actions?<br />
A. I regret to say this, but the failure <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners<br />
primarily rested in the rcalm <strong>of</strong> lackluster leadership. When we formed<br />
the Progressive Miners, we were filled with enthusiasm and faith, and<br />
in that period placed men at the head <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners that<br />
had no experience, had very little social vision, and much less militance.<br />
As a result, they became enamoured with this <strong>of</strong>fice, and while<br />
they did nos receive large wages as such, in their own small way they<br />
became fat cats, and soon, they were not recognizable as coal miners<br />
any longer. So, in the heat <strong>of</strong> the struggle, which was an intense<br />
struggle and wrought with much violence, they lacked the leadership,<br />
the knowledge, the militancy and the courage to carry through with<br />
the stated objectives <strong>of</strong> the organization. There was, in my opinion,<br />
several times when <strong>of</strong>fers were made to mediate the struggle, but the<br />
leadership was not brave enough to face these issues. They were not<br />
courageous enough tn look at realities and as a consequence, they let<br />
these opportunities slip by. I might mention in passing that, as they<br />
became more imbued with the <strong>of</strong>fice they became commensrxsatelymore<br />
conservative and so the big fight, instead <strong>of</strong> being lodged against<br />
the coal corporation and the tyrannical United Mine Workcrs, was made<br />
against the radicals within thc movement <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners.<br />
It became a virtual witch hunt. All <strong>of</strong> the time was spent hunting<br />
down Reds, they called them, and radicals. J became a victjm <strong>of</strong> it.<br />
1 was tried by the trial vote <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners, which was<br />
dominated pretty much by the machine, while 1 was a Board member, and<br />
I was convicted and removed from <strong>of</strong>fice.<br />
Q, For what charge?<br />
A, For alleged violation <strong>of</strong> the constitution. It was alleged in the<br />
trial that 1 had fraternized with the United Mine Workers, that by<br />
this fraternization with the United Mine Workers;, I was seeking to<br />
destroy the Progressive Mine Workers. That is, in subsranee, the<br />
charge that I was tried on. I'd likc to point out, however, that<br />
subsequently, or, subsequent to that trial, 1 wrote a pamphlet about<br />
this matter and I distributed kt throughout the state. The President<br />
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was also tried, Dave Reed, and he, also, was removed from <strong>of</strong>fice.<br />
Be had become too militant for them. And so, the big struggle finally<br />
evolved into a witch hunt as I said, and they lost sight <strong>of</strong> the<br />
larger struggle and the Progressive Miners finally ended in failure,<br />
total failure.<br />
Q. You mentioned the pamphlet which you wrote at the conclusion <strong>of</strong><br />
your trial, by the trial board <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners. Would you<br />
care to tell us what was the pamphlet titled, is it available today,<br />
is it out <strong>of</strong> print or is thcre any way that a copy can be obtained?<br />
A. 1'11 give you a copy, 1 have a copy.<br />
Q. Would you say that because the Progressive Mine Workers failed,<br />
that, for that rrason, the United Mine Workers fell to its--until<br />
recently--disreputable condi~ion which was culminated in the Yablonski<br />
murder, Tony Boyle's questionable reelection and the eventual defeat<br />
by Miller in a court ordered election?<br />
A. Of course the members <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers were, in great<br />
numbers, dissatisfied with the internal policies <strong>of</strong> the United Mine<br />
Workers, even in that period when we were struggling against the<br />
United Mine Workers. But hy the process <strong>of</strong> destroying the autonomy<br />
<strong>of</strong> thc United Mine Workers and appointing all <strong>of</strong> his henchmen to these<br />
various <strong>of</strong>fices--local state and cxecutive Board--John Lewis, with<br />
his exchequer and millions in the treasury, had such control over<br />
that portion <strong>of</strong> his membership that Lhey were unable--at least without<br />
grave danger to their persons--to rebel against him. In other words,<br />
he had them hagtied because he controlled every semblance <strong>of</strong> that<br />
organization from its ground Eloor up to its top level. And th~ough<br />
the force <strong>of</strong> intimidation and reprisal and threats--threat <strong>of</strong> losing<br />
a job for instance, the threat <strong>of</strong> being moved out <strong>of</strong> the c~mnity<br />
because <strong>of</strong> their opposition to John Lewis--was so great that so~ehow<br />
or other they just did not find the courage to follow our suit, and<br />
become members <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners. Of course, the longer they<br />
delayed and the longer that John Lewis prevented their coming over<br />
to the Progressive Miners or joining any movement that was progressive,<br />
the more power John Lewis had, the more control. And in the meantime<br />
the Progressive Miners were deteriorating because <strong>of</strong> the lack <strong>of</strong><br />
leadership, becausc they had become conservative, because they were<br />
witch hunting. And this became known so the outlying fields and once<br />
they saw this development <strong>of</strong> course, then, they had no desire to come<br />
over. Why leave a sinking ship for a worse one?<br />
Q. At the rime when you first joined the Mine Workers, what was the<br />
working day--how many hours did you work underground at that rime?<br />
A. The eight hour day had been established, when I started in the<br />
mines it was an eight hour day. Of course there were times, all <strong>of</strong><br />
them worked in the mincs, within the mincs and with the primitive<br />
tools <strong>of</strong> the pick and shovel, and it was piece work except the haulage,<br />
except the timbermen and track layers. They were paid by the day.<br />
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But there were many mines--especially where there wasn't a close-knit<br />
organization, where there wasn't any militancy, where there wasn't<br />
any cohesion, where they were newly founded and inexperienced, and<br />
perhaps lacking in a little militancy--where it was nothing unusual<br />
for miners to go into the mines and be there twelve hours, although<br />
it was an eight hour day in effect.<br />
Q. Let's touch up on a few other items along this line. Was there<br />
any overtime paid? Were there any insurance provisions, were there<br />
any items that today generally are classified as fringe benefits,<br />
safety precautions, et cetera? Would you like to comment on this?<br />
A. I'd be delighted to talk on that subject, For many years, after<br />
I started in the coal mines, there was nothing like compensation,<br />
there was nothing like safety laws, and . . . . (interruption) As<br />
I was saying in the early period <strong>of</strong> my mining career and for many<br />
years after that, thcre was no compensation <strong>of</strong> any kind, no industrial<br />
compensation, no unemployment compensation. Safety laws, if any,<br />
were practically unknown. The union was very young and not totally<br />
organized in that period and as a consequence, seniority rights as<br />
we know them today were unknown. There was no overtime payment for<br />
any thing.<br />
T think perhaps I can cxplain that better by saying, that we were<br />
not even free citizens in our community. The company, in the early<br />
period <strong>of</strong> the union, owned the houses in the community--company houses<br />
we called them--they owned the company store. In some cases they<br />
issued their own scrip for money and this kind <strong>of</strong> business you needed<br />
some change in as much as 30 to 35 per cent. The prices at their<br />
company store was about 15, 20, 25 per cent higher than in private<br />
store perhaps ten to Fifteen miles away.<br />
And rhe composition <strong>of</strong> those communities, like all communities, had<br />
its churches and its rectors and its priest-not too many in numbers<br />
but we had a church here and thcre, and a preacher here and there.<br />
But even the preacher, the tax collector and the sheriff and the<br />
judge, all belonged in the pocket <strong>of</strong> the coal company. We were virtual<br />
prisoners. And so, when we lamented too strongly about bad<br />
conditions, there being seniority and not too much <strong>of</strong> a union to<br />
protect us, we were liable to be taken <strong>of</strong>f <strong>of</strong> a job and demoted to<br />
a worse job.<br />
For instance, if we had a good working place that was fairly safe<br />
and fairly productive and fairly pr<strong>of</strong>itable--if I may use that term--<br />
and we became disenchanted with what was going on in the coal mines<br />
and in the community, by the virtual control <strong>of</strong> the company, if we<br />
lamented too loud, as I say, we were placed in a working place that<br />
was filled with water and in which we could not make a living. So<br />
by this method <strong>of</strong> terror and intimidation, we were careful sometimes,<br />
a little bit careful about making too much noises.<br />
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But we eventually overcame them, we paid a stiff price for it. We<br />
lost thousands <strong>of</strong> miners by process <strong>of</strong> the gun thugs, and the militia,<br />
and the coal company thugs and so on and so forth. Many <strong>of</strong> them went<br />
to jail-. I've been in a few jails in my life, all because <strong>of</strong> unton<br />
activities. And if we got too loud, during that period <strong>of</strong> weakness,<br />
we were sometimes excommunicated and run out <strong>of</strong> the comunity. I'd<br />
like to relate as late as 1921, a condition that had attained, even<br />
in that period when the miners were not covered by insurance <strong>of</strong> any<br />
kind. My brother, my brother Camille, was killed in the coal mine<br />
in 1921 and . . .<br />
END OF TAPE ONE<br />
A. . . , and for which the family received not one cent compensa-<br />
tion. I would also like to relate the conditions that existed in<br />
the coal mine in that period. It was not: unusual for the mine executives<br />
to come to ~hc mine and conduct an investigatinn if a mule<br />
was injured or killed. But no such investigation ever took place<br />
when a miner was killed.<br />
Q. That's very interestingand <strong>of</strong> course, we in this country pride<br />
ourselves on our concept <strong>of</strong> value <strong>of</strong> human life. Would you like to<br />
add an additional comment at this time, in light <strong>of</strong> whar you have jusr<br />
now said?<br />
A. Well briefly, in accordance with the social conditions and the<br />
affairs <strong>of</strong> the world, life is about the cheapest commodity there is.<br />
Q, 1 also recall how, sometime during my personal encounter with you<br />
and your wife TilTie, the two <strong>of</strong> you have described to me the house<br />
in which you lived during those days. I believe it was $in Wilsohville,<br />
was it not? Would you describe rhe condition <strong>of</strong> the house, irs structural<br />
condition and the degree <strong>of</strong> prctection you had f r ~ m th.e elements,<br />
and so forth.<br />
A. That period you're talking about was in the Depression <strong>of</strong> 1929,<br />
and 1930 and 1931 and so on. We lived in a home, for which we paid<br />
$5.00 a month. To describe it briefly, that is describe the house,<br />
it was so badly constructed that really you could have thrown a fiveton<br />
truck through the entire house and never hit a weather board.<br />
That was rhs general condition in the mines, during the Depfes~ion~<br />
On top <strong>of</strong> that, mechanization <strong>of</strong> the mines had caused a lot <strong>of</strong> unemployment<br />
among the miners. As a consequence, because wr wanted to<br />
stay together and share the bread, we agreed to a diviston <strong>of</strong> work.<br />
Considering the mines only worked maybe two days a week and we were<br />
on a five to one division--the mine would have to work probably five<br />
weeks before we got a shift. It was not unusual for us to come home<br />
with a paycheck <strong>of</strong> five dollars or ten dollars, never exceeding ren<br />
dollars. I had many receipts in my files over the years that I earned<br />
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in the coal mines and many <strong>of</strong> them show $700 or $800 per year.<br />
don't think I ever reached $1000 a year,<br />
f<br />
Q. To come back to the house again, wasn't that the house where the<br />
ro<strong>of</strong> was SO bad that everytime it rained you had pans and buckets<br />
all over the floor to catch the water that was coming from the ro<strong>of</strong>?<br />
As I recall the ro<strong>of</strong> was only repaired and a new one placed on after<br />
a tornado or a storm had carried it away. 1s that correct?<br />
A. That's correct* About this house and its leaky ro<strong>of</strong>, actually--<br />
and this is true--we had in rhe attic at least 300 cans which we had<br />
placed up there, to catch the raindrops to keep it from coming down<br />
into the house. I was very helpful towards my wife. I would lay in<br />
the room and look up to see where the hole was, while my wife climbed<br />
up in the attic to pl-ace the can to catch that new hole. That 5s<br />
true.<br />
The miner never earned anything commensurate to what you'd call a<br />
fair standard <strong>of</strong> living. Not even in the height <strong>of</strong> its strength<br />
while 1 was in the coal mine. I lcft the coal mines in 1939--or<br />
rather the coal mine left me. That's the year I was banished from<br />
the ranks <strong>of</strong> the coal miners, by this trial which I have already<br />
described. Subsequent to that I became an organizer for the Teamsters<br />
Union. I organized in the steel industry, and I also participated<br />
in the formation <strong>of</strong> the Automobile Workem Union in Detroit,<br />
I became a regional director <strong>of</strong> District 50 in the Alton area. It's<br />
interesting to note that 1 was getting $60 a week working for the<br />
Teamsters under the administration <strong>of</strong> Dan Tobin. This is prior to<br />
Dave Beck and H<strong>of</strong>fa. Sixty dollars a week would pay their own per<br />
diem. That's interesting because today they're making $70,000 to<br />
$80,000 a year, and doing a hell <strong>of</strong>la lor less than we did at $7.50<br />
a month.<br />
Q, Would you describe to us some <strong>of</strong> the attempts by the ownership<br />
<strong>of</strong> the mines to intimidate or to bribe miners and, particularly<br />
organizers such as yourself.<br />
A. lroaically, even though I was very controversial and very militant<br />
in the unions and paid for that activity, I was never <strong>of</strong>fered<br />
a bribe but one time. I can't say truthfully that it was a bribe<br />
from either the coal miners or che union <strong>of</strong>ficrials. On one occasion<br />
a gentleman came to my home, introduced himself and after a two hour<br />
discussion he <strong>of</strong>fered me $5000 if T would become a silent member <strong>of</strong><br />
the union--not active in other words. I never did ascertain who this<br />
gentleman was representing.<br />
Q. Can you recall any orher instances, nor necessarily involving<br />
yoursel-f but people whom you knew from the union, who were either<br />
intimidated or <strong>of</strong>fered a bribe?<br />
A. I'm talking about bribes now. Although the factional struggle<br />
between the United Mine Workers and the Progressive Mine Workers was<br />
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very fierce, there was some money utilized for purposes that weren't<br />
exactly honorable. Rut to my knowledge, not even in that fierce<br />
struggle was bribery a form <strong>of</strong> winning adherence to the cause <strong>of</strong> one<br />
side or the other. The coal operators didn't have to bribe, They<br />
owned the community, they owned our souls, add through the threat<br />
<strong>of</strong> a job or the lack <strong>of</strong> a job we were victims <strong>of</strong> the coal companies.<br />
If they bribed anybody, they bribed the <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the county, the<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the state. There was no doubt that we had our Watergate<br />
on a smaller scale, then. They probably contributed heavily to the<br />
Republicans, if they happcned to be the party <strong>of</strong> their choice or the<br />
Democrats. Their rewards were forthcoming immediately by the failure<br />
to inspect the mines, to ignore the conditions which obtained in the<br />
communities, and so on and so forth.<br />
Q. 1 would likc to explore now a very important and a very fascinating<br />
period <strong>of</strong> your life in which you were very personally and very deeply<br />
involved. I'm talking about your participation in a sit-down strike<br />
in a coal mine in this region. Give us the date, the num'ber <strong>of</strong> people<br />
who participated, the number <strong>of</strong> casualties that were sustained, and<br />
as much <strong>of</strong> the details as you possibly can.<br />
A. During the contractual relationship between the Superior Coal<br />
Company and Local Union No. One, that prevailed from the time <strong>of</strong> the<br />
inception <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners and the Coal Operators Association,<br />
that portion which signed up with the Progressive Miners,<br />
There had always been an unwritten law--ir was not stipulated in the<br />
contract--that if one <strong>of</strong> the mines <strong>of</strong> the Superior Coal Company closed<br />
down, then the company automatjcally divided the work <strong>of</strong> the membership<br />
mine, that was closed down, with the three remaining mines that continued<br />
to operate. There were four such mines; No, Qne in Agarville, No. Two<br />
in Sawyerville, No. Three in Mt. Claron and Na. Four in Wilsonvillc.<br />
This local was amalgamated and had jurisdiction over the Superior<br />
Coal Company Mines. Well, it happcned in 1937 that the coal company<br />
decided for some unknown reason that they would not immediately divide<br />
work with the No. One employees, whose mine had been closed for extensive<br />
and major repairs. It was anticipated that this mine would be<br />
down for maybe three or four months. Whereupon the Local union demanded<br />
with the coal company that they bring the mihers from No. One and<br />
divide the work within Two, lliree and Four Mines. We demanded to<br />
share the bread with these boys who were going to be unemployed.<br />
Well, the coal company denied this demand. We took it up through the<br />
regular tribunals <strong>of</strong> the miners courts. The miner committeemen<br />
approached the company First--they denied them the demands. The local<br />
president took the case up with the coal company and again it was<br />
denied. Then it was takm up with the Board member and again denScd-<br />
This was a flagrant violation <strong>of</strong> a condition that had obtained for<br />
years and years and years in these communities, and we were hard<br />
pressed to understand what the motive <strong>of</strong> the company was, But at thc<br />
time when we got through with the case, being handled by the Board<br />
member--you can understand that we were not only nonplussed, pexplexed,<br />
we were disgusted and very angry.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 1.6<br />
The negotiations didn't stop there. In a special meeting, we elected<br />
a special committee, other than our regular <strong>of</strong>ficers and seat this<br />
committee to the coal company to discuss and negotiate this problem<br />
<strong>of</strong> the division <strong>of</strong> work for the Number One men at these other mines.<br />
Again the company denied it. At the next regular meeting they reported<br />
their failure. Well, you can understand our mood when we Lcft that<br />
meeting. We thought, "Well, this is a hard-nosed attitude and its<br />
purpose is to destroy somc kind <strong>of</strong> a condition." Perhaps this would<br />
be the leverage to which they would proceed to undermine all <strong>of</strong> the<br />
conditions subsequently. The next day we decided--the rank and file<br />
decided--that we would negotiate with the company -in a different<br />
manner. We decided to sit down and we sat down in the Number Four<br />
Mine.<br />
Q. Where was 4t located?<br />
A. Wilsonville. We sat down in that particular mine, in that present<br />
condition and present term. These was 544 miners at the Number Four<br />
mine. We gathered the miners at the bottom <strong>of</strong> the shaft on this<br />
particular day in April, 1937. We discussed and informed them about<br />
thc conditions that was facing us and the attitude <strong>of</strong> the company.<br />
After this explanation, the miners decided that we'd remain in the<br />
mine. To my knowledge, this was the first sit-down in a coal mine<br />
in the history <strong>of</strong> the United States. These four mines being connected<br />
by entries, underground, enablcd us, later on, to ga from this mine<br />
underground to the others, and we shut them all down. So we shut<br />
a11 four mines down. For nine days we sat down in the mines and<br />
waited for our <strong>of</strong>ficers--the local president, the Board member and<br />
the state--to do something about it.<br />
Q. Wcrr you an <strong>of</strong>ficial <strong>of</strong> the union at that time?<br />
A. No, I was not. Anyhow, for nine days there was some sort <strong>of</strong><br />
negotfations attempting to settle this dispute but the company<br />
remained adamant. The president <strong>of</strong> the company, who was also the<br />
president <strong>of</strong> the Chicago-Northwestern--the Superior Coal Company was<br />
a subsidiary <strong>of</strong> the Nort'hweste-rn. Mr. Fiedler came down from Chicago<br />
and he refuscd to settle it, refused to negatiate. We continued to<br />
sit down, Finally the thing came to an end and we gat our division<br />
<strong>of</strong> work. They had discharged--at least they publicly announced that<br />
they were going to discharge all <strong>of</strong> the. leaders <strong>of</strong> the sit-down strike,<br />
at least the local ones. The discharges didn't stick, they a11 went<br />
bac-k to work and we goc over that hurdle pretty good. We had not<br />
casualties whatsoever. We had full and complete control <strong>of</strong> the mines.<br />
We furnished the coal to the botler rooms to keep the ventilation<br />
goi.ng. We organized our underground sit-down strike which occurred<br />
only--the men were only in control actually <strong>of</strong> the Number Four mine<br />
on1.y. The other miners hadn't set down. They were out <strong>of</strong> the mines<br />
when we sat down, so they closed the mines. Then we formed a real<br />
civic community. We had our strike committee, we had our sick committee,<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 1.7<br />
we had our sanitation committee, we had all kinds <strong>of</strong> committees.<br />
never had one injury, not one man was harmed in any way.<br />
We<br />
But we had some interesting episodes that caused a few headaches.<br />
One <strong>of</strong> them was: we had what we called a check committee that counted<br />
the men every night to see that everybody was present. We had slowed<br />
down the air velocity and we could not get too far away from the<br />
bottom, because we were pumping only enough air to provide us air<br />
at this immediate bottom where we were sitting, One night they took<br />
a count, and we had one man missing. We searched every rock, looked<br />
mder every car and in every conceivable place trying to locate this<br />
man. We were frantic. We didn't want to lose a man, because that<br />
would have blighted our case in the public eye. Herc some <strong>of</strong> rhe<br />
people had the impression that it was a frfvolous escapade, you know,<br />
and if we'd have lost somebody or somebody had gotten killed or injured,<br />
that would have harmed our cause. And we were, consequently, damn<br />
frantic about the loss <strong>of</strong> this man, the absence <strong>of</strong> this man. So we<br />
looked everywhere. Almost four hours passed, and we hadn't located<br />
the man. We didn't even know the name <strong>of</strong> the man that was missing,<br />
we couldn't come up with his name. About four hours later we were<br />
sitting there, totally disgusted with this man being gone, and not<br />
knowing who he was or what happened to him. Suddenly ee looked down<br />
the entry and saw a faint, glimmering light coming from the area OF<br />
the air shaft, T knew that none <strong>of</strong> the strikers had wandered <strong>of</strong>f in<br />
that direction, and so I jumped up and rushed down there and it<br />
happened to be a man by the name <strong>of</strong> Dominic Balestra. He speaks<br />
somewhat: brokenly. When I got down there and saw who it was I was<br />
somewhat angry. I kind <strong>of</strong> shook him a little roughly and I said,<br />
I I<br />
Goddammit! Whrre have you been? You know we've been worried here<br />
for three or four hours. We were afraid that you got hurt or that<br />
somebody got hurt." And hc said to me in his broken English, he<br />
said, "What kind <strong>of</strong> goddamn union you got?" He said, "I don't scab,<br />
I support the Union, L sit down in the coal mine." He said, "NOW<br />
'cause I want to go up the air shaft and see my wife for a few minutes<br />
and make a little love," he said, "what the hell? You contr~l my<br />
wife and my monkey business with her, too?"<br />
Q. What was the £ha1 outcome <strong>of</strong> your sit-down strike? How was it<br />
resolved?<br />
A. We got our demands, the No. One members were allowed to divide<br />
work. It required a couple <strong>of</strong> weeks to get the thing worked out <strong>of</strong><br />
course, and nobody was discharged. We went back to work.<br />
Q. So there was no punitive action taken againsr any strikers?<br />
A. No. There was much recrimination on the part <strong>of</strong> our <strong>of</strong>ficials,<br />
because <strong>of</strong> our act <strong>of</strong> sitting down. As a matter <strong>of</strong> factt there was<br />
times when we thought our enemy was the Progressive Miner <strong>of</strong>ficials<br />
rather than the coal company <strong>of</strong>ficials.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> Batruello 18<br />
Q. In looking over your numerous newspaper clippings, 1 recall that<br />
there was something perizaining to activities above the ground. It<br />
concerned the members <strong>of</strong> the families in, regard to food. I also<br />
recall something in regards to your post <strong>of</strong>fice. I think it was and<br />
musi.cal entertainment underground. Would you like to cover this a<br />
bit?<br />
A. I meant to mention those activities a while ago. In additjon to<br />
all <strong>of</strong> our other committees, we had a post <strong>of</strong>fice, and an orchestra.<br />
We had comprising that orchestra a drummer, two guitars, a clarinet<br />
and a trumpet. But we had no women. So to make up for that difference<br />
we asked the women--who were our real allies on top who had sent us<br />
down all the fond, clothing, and blankets that we needed--to send<br />
down a woman's dress and we dressed up Whitey Hayes. We powdered<br />
him up and fixed him up with a wig, and we danced poor old Whitey<br />
to death on the bottom that night.<br />
Q. Did the company <strong>of</strong>ficials or security personnel <strong>of</strong>fer any resistance<br />
as to the food being brought down or the mail, et cetera?<br />
A. None, because they could not. We had control <strong>of</strong> the engine room,<br />
we had control <strong>of</strong> the cage, we had control <strong>of</strong> the mine. The mine<br />
was in the complete control <strong>of</strong> the miners. The <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the<br />
company never showed up.<br />
Q. Is this rclating to other fields? Was this what was involved<br />
during the inter-union struggle between the Progressives and the<br />
United Mine Workers when the National Guard was called in? I recall<br />
seeing clippings to that effect. Would you explain that please?<br />
A. That was during the factional fight, during the early period <strong>of</strong><br />
the Progressive Miners versus the United Mine Workcrs. We had invaded<br />
the Taylorvillc area in an attempt to get those miners to come but<br />
and support us, and join our movement. The Militia was called out<br />
and many <strong>of</strong> us were jailed, a Ecw were clubbed. On one occasion they<br />
filled the courthouse with prisoners--they'd run out <strong>of</strong> jails. In<br />
chat period, not on1.y did I go to jail, but my wife came up to see<br />
where I was at and they threw her in jail. But the Militia there<br />
had a court-martial rule, and one <strong>of</strong> the rules that applied during<br />
that court-martial period was that not more than three people could<br />
congregate in one group. We insisted on congregating in larger groups<br />
and as a consequence, hundreds <strong>of</strong> us went to jail. But because <strong>of</strong><br />
the interference <strong>of</strong> the militia, and gun thugs as well--you must<br />
understand that Jahn Lewis had the money and as a consequence he had<br />
the influence <strong>of</strong> the state and the county <strong>of</strong>ficers, except in Macoupin<br />
County--and we failed as a result <strong>of</strong> that. We failed in getting the<br />
miners in the Taylorville area to come over to our side, Taylorvillc<br />
mines were Peabody Coal Mines--all <strong>of</strong> them were Peabody Coal Mines.<br />
That was Kincaid and Tovey and Taylorville and all <strong>of</strong> them were under<br />
the jurisdiction <strong>of</strong> the Peabody Coal Company. The conditions in the<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 19<br />
Taylotville mines were even worse. They were as bad as they were in<br />
Hazard, Kentucky or some portions <strong>of</strong> West Virginia. Yet it never<br />
happened that they came over to our side.<br />
Q. About four months ago I was staying with you and Tillie here in<br />
Brighton, and we were visiting some <strong>of</strong> your relatives and friends<br />
in this area. We visited the home <strong>of</strong> your former co-worker, John<br />
Florek, who was very seriously ill and was afflicted with black lung<br />
diseasc. Now you tell me that about three weeks or so after wc<br />
visited him, he had died. Black lung is a very significant part<br />
<strong>of</strong> miner's occupational hazards and I would like to ask you if you<br />
would go into this in greater detail. Discuss the black lung problem<br />
in the days when you were down and perhaps compare this with what is<br />
taking place today. Is these any improvement in this?<br />
A. There have been some attempts to improve these conditions in<br />
those reccnt modern mines, highly mechanized. But with all, <strong>of</strong> the<br />
improvements that they have attempled, there has been a total lack<br />
<strong>of</strong> enforcement, particularly on the part <strong>of</strong> the state and federal<br />
government. These mines have been ignored until something drastic<br />
happens, until maybe an explosion or maybe a large-scale number <strong>of</strong><br />
fatalities. Then <strong>of</strong> course there's some small-time interest shown<br />
and for a brief moment there seems ro be some supervision over the<br />
conditions <strong>of</strong> the mine on the part <strong>of</strong> the federal government and<br />
the federal and state inspectors. But generally speaking, the conditions<br />
in the coal mine that relate to what we used to call silicosis<br />
or miner's asthma, now known as pneumoconiosis, is still a hazardous<br />
thing in the coal mines. No man can work in the coal mine, even<br />
undcr the present modern, mechanized equipment wirhout becoming<br />
inflicted with pneumoconiosis. TE he works as little as five years<br />
in the coal mine, you can bet that his lungs arc perforated with<br />
rock dust and coal dust. Of course I'd like to suggest that there<br />
are other industries that are equally as dangerous in this Gay.<br />
Such as the mills where grains are ground and such as the steel mills<br />
where you're working in tcrnperatures up to 180 degrees and where<br />
dust is omnipresent on the person all day long. No man can go very<br />
long without becoming afflicted with a lung conditlion, no man.<br />
Now, 1'd like to also mention in connection with this black lung<br />
thing that, when this became a law by Congress in late 1969 and<br />
became effective in 1970, <strong>of</strong> course naturally there was a lot <strong>of</strong><br />
claims. Most <strong>of</strong> the miners arc afflicted in ode form or another--<br />
some <strong>of</strong> them badly. Many <strong>of</strong> them like John Flosek is at the point<br />
where he couldn't breathe anymore. He couldn't exert himself even<br />
by walking two or three feet. There were many claims filed and<br />
there were many claims allowed. But suddenly, after Nixon's re-election--whcn<br />
he cut back on social programs, when he began to impound<br />
appropriations, when he began to cut back on the Health, Education<br />
and Welfare hills, whcn he began to veto the Rehabilitation Act and<br />
many other things--suddenly the benefits for black lung ceased. ft<br />
was cut-<strong>of</strong>f and terminated suddenly, and as a resdt there is nothing<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 2 0<br />
but rejections coming in today. A complete reversal <strong>of</strong> whar was<br />
happening three or four months after the claims were made and the<br />
cla.ims were allowed. Suddenly all <strong>of</strong> that was cut out, and now the<br />
miners-many <strong>of</strong> them who are toally incapacitated--are out, To me<br />
at least it seemed like the black I.ung is something that you can<br />
forget about: as long as Nixon remains Tn <strong>of</strong>fice, and the Congress<br />
remains too damn cowardly to do something about it.<br />
Q. As I was reading accounts <strong>of</strong> the Wal~~ut Creek disaster, when the<br />
slag heap dam that was constructed by the company in West Virginia<br />
in the minling areas gave way and lives were lost. The property <strong>of</strong><br />
the miners was destroyed. Tt became apparent to me, at Least in my<br />
judgment, that there was definite collusinn on the part <strong>of</strong> the Uniced<br />
Mine Workers <strong>of</strong>fi.cial.s, federal mine safety inspectors and the owners<br />
<strong>of</strong> the nines. One <strong>of</strong> the <strong>of</strong>ficials who was involved in the tnvestigation<br />
which followed, cal-led the disaster an act <strong>of</strong> God, even though<br />
the slag heap or dam was constructed by men and not created by nature.<br />
Would you care to comment on this particular disasrer and your related<br />
problems in the mining operation?<br />
A. All I know about what happened in West Virginia with regards to<br />
the breakage <strong>of</strong> that dam and the casualties and property destruction<br />
which ensued, is what I read in the daily papers and what I read in<br />
the Miner's --- Journal. I've never talked to anybody that was actually<br />
present in that occurrence. I: do know rhis: there is no doubt in<br />
my mind, knowing thc history <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers and knowing<br />
the personnel, that supervised the United Mine Workers, particularly<br />
under the Boyle administration, that there was collusion, and there<br />
was a total neglect <strong>of</strong> the miner's interests. Miners, I'm informed<br />
very authoritatively, in chat region and particularly in that tom,<br />
complained about the possibility <strong>of</strong> that dam breaking and flooding<br />
that town. Although they complained loud to the <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the<br />
United Mine Workers and to the state and to the federal, nothing was<br />
done about it. The consequences was that they paid the penalty, an<br />
extreme penalty when the dam did break and destroyed their property<br />
and killed a lot <strong>of</strong> people.<br />
Q. Would you care to comment on Tony Boyle's administration and what<br />
your expectations are <strong>of</strong> the new Miller admlnlstration <strong>of</strong> the United<br />
Mine Workers?<br />
A, T don't have to waste too many words ta describe BoyLe, or his<br />
administration. Tony Boyle was not only a pawn and a tool for the<br />
coal companies, he was a fraud as a union labor leader. I think that's<br />
generally known, even within the United Mine Workers. I never was<br />
happier, that I can recal.1, than on the night when I received a report<br />
over the television that Arnold Miller--whom I do not know--had<br />
defeated Boyle. I regret: to say that that election was not the result<br />
<strong>of</strong> the miner's intellectual activities, but rather from a court<br />
decision. But despite that fact, I am pleased and gratified when<br />
Arnold Miller defeated Tony Boyle. I do not know Arnold Millet, but<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 2 1<br />
I do know that he has already began some reforms that are very<br />
interesting and very constructive. I believe him to be an honest<br />
person, I bel.ieve him to possess some courage. I am sure that if<br />
he'll continue to reform the United Mine Workers' structure, as he<br />
has already shown in his initial attempts, that he'll probably restore<br />
some dignity and honesty in the United Mine Workers. That's good<br />
that thar is happening because originally the United Mine Workers<br />
was the father <strong>of</strong> unionism in this country. From it came the American<br />
Federation <strong>of</strong> Labor in its greatest development and its greatest<br />
influence. From i.t came the CIO. The miners provided the sinews<br />
and the money for the formation <strong>of</strong> the CIO. Praci5cally every organizer<br />
in the beginning <strong>of</strong> that union was a coal miner. I participated<br />
in it. And perhaps the United Mine Workers, under this new administrati..on--.if<br />
it conti.nues in the same direction in which it i.s now<br />
going--might again be the foundation <strong>of</strong> a revolutionary change within<br />
the labor movement.<br />
I'm hoping that will happen, because if the working class and the<br />
poor people are concerned, if thc labor movement fails in the social<br />
cause, ir: cannot hope to look elsewhere for hrlp. A good example is<br />
the Viet Nam War. We were there without cause or wtthour rhyme,<br />
Lt's needless to go into the casualties, and the deaths, and huge<br />
expenditures, and the immorality that was brought about by that war.<br />
It's sufficient to say that even the American people, who can be<br />
beguiled very easily, were at one point, 76 per cent against that<br />
war and yet, despite that, the labor movement and all <strong>of</strong> its influence,<br />
in all <strong>of</strong> its branches, continued to support that war. In the latter<br />
period <strong>of</strong> President Johnson's administration, ha had no support from<br />
the public, ge-nerally speaking. He had only support <strong>of</strong> the labor<br />
movement. And in the beginning <strong>of</strong> ~ixon's administration, he could<br />
not have con~i.nued that war had not labor supported him in the continuation<br />
02 that war. So we can say thar the labor movement in America<br />
not only failed in its obligation to its members and to the working<br />
class, but it failed in the common cause <strong>of</strong><br />
And I<br />
can't think <strong>of</strong> a greater betrayal in the history <strong>of</strong> the United States<br />
on the part <strong>of</strong> labor.<br />
Q. It's very educational for me and very rewarding to come and visit<br />
wirh you as I do from time to time despite my cweaty plus years involvement<br />
in labor movements myself.<br />
A. Ycs, I think I'd like to make one concluding statement. I'd like<br />
to makc a plea, not only to the working class, to the labor unions,<br />
but I'd like ta make a plea to society in general that as goes the<br />
cause <strong>of</strong> the poor people, so goes the cause <strong>of</strong> the destiny <strong>of</strong> zhe<br />
world. At the present moment, this society corrodes to its very<br />
foundation, unless there's some drastic fundamental changes made<br />
within society and irnmediarely so, then you can expect thar we will<br />
become a particle <strong>of</strong> sand in the statc <strong>of</strong> oblivion.<br />
Q. Thank you very much <strong>Jack</strong>.<br />
END OF TAPE TWO<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 22<br />
Q. [This is Bobbie Herndon, con,ci.nuing the interviews with <strong>Jack</strong><br />
<strong>Battuello</strong>.] Cou1.d we go back a bit to about August 6, 1932, which<br />
according to our research is the day that the miners were asked to<br />
vote again on the five dollar a day wage, What was your reaction?<br />
A. This was the period when the contract was being negotiated and<br />
the question came up, at least John Lewis took the position, that<br />
the miners could not retain the $6.00 a day scale. In other words,<br />
he was proposin.g that we take a reduction to $5.00 a day, Subsequently,<br />
that matter was submitted to a referendum which we in<br />
<strong>Illinois</strong> stS11. had a right to do and which in other states had been<br />
taken away from them. Autonomy had been destroyed by John Lewis up<br />
to the <strong>Illinois</strong> boundary. That referendum was held and during the<br />
time when the votes were being counted on the first day, the tally<br />
showed--the auditors so reported to the watchers--that the wage<br />
reduction was being defeated three to one. During the night, out<br />
<strong>of</strong> the vaults <strong>of</strong> the bank, the ballots disappeared.<br />
We demanded another referendum--another election. John Lewis denied<br />
it and declared an emergency and put into effect the $5.00 a day<br />
wage reduction whereupon we seceded. That led to the secession.<br />
Of course then following that, there was the problem <strong>of</strong> setting up<br />
a temporary convention,election <strong>of</strong> temporary <strong>of</strong>ficers and primarily,<br />
the organization work to obtain the support. <strong>of</strong> the remainder <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Illino*is miners. Among them was the famous Mulkeytown march. That<br />
wa.s organized central.1~ at Gillespie, Illlinoi~. The march started<br />
from Gillespie and we picked up other contingents <strong>of</strong> miners on the<br />
way down to Marissa and Mulkeytown until that caravan extended some<br />
forty-five miles on the highway. The first thing that happened was<br />
we were stopped at Swansea by state police and county <strong>of</strong>ficers. We<br />
were searched; every car was thoroughly searched for weapons, no doubt.<br />
None were found and then we were allowed to proceed on into Franklin<br />
County. When we got to the Little Muddy--just beyond it, the first<br />
portion <strong>of</strong> the caravan--we were ambushed by rifle fire. Of course<br />
the miners were defenseless--unarmed totally--so we ran. We jumped<br />
out <strong>of</strong> the cars and ran out chrough the fields, pe1.l mell, id all<br />
directions. It was during that time when the <strong>of</strong>ficers--they had<br />
school children, high school kids armed with rifles--they proceeded<br />
along that caravan and demolished every car; windshields, the food--<br />
they threw the food our. We were loaded wirh food, you know, intending<br />
to stay dam there until we conquered that county or the southern<br />
miners, or at least persuaded them to came along wirk us. You never<br />
saw such a mess or such a picture <strong>of</strong> desolation. Tkerr was food and<br />
blankets and c<strong>of</strong>fee pots and whatever--cars pushed into the ditch and<br />
turned over, windshiel-ds smashed and tires slashed.<br />
Well, you can imagine what took place these with all <strong>of</strong> us in disarray,<br />
totally disorganized, running from gunmen who were shouting<br />
to kill, Poor defenseless men--some youngsters in the crowd, too,<br />
The kids joj.ncd us, you know, sone <strong>of</strong> them. When we returned tw our<br />
cars some <strong>of</strong> them couldn't get them started, same were in ditches;<br />
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food had to be picked up and blankets and whatever else was salvagable.<br />
So slowly but surely we reorganized our lines and we moved back into<br />
DuQuoin. There, most <strong>of</strong> us stayed all night. We were being harassed<br />
and guarded by rhe police, though--by the state police, by the county<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers and by thugs. There were thugs among them, hired by whom<br />
I can't sa,y at this moment, but evidently from all the history that<br />
we got and all the experience we had, we know that John Lewis was<br />
providing a lot <strong>of</strong> the money and influence in order to hire these<br />
people.<br />
Well, they wanted to get us out <strong>of</strong> town. We'd lost each other, We'd<br />
lost contact with each other. Some <strong>of</strong> our riders were here and some<br />
were there; it was an awful mess. Slowly but surely some <strong>of</strong> them<br />
started making same attempt to gct home. A great many <strong>of</strong> them finally<br />
found some way. Some walked out and some hitched rides and some got<br />
their cars started. Slowly but surely that disorganized mass began<br />
to become disciplined a little bit when the greater portion <strong>of</strong> marchers<br />
had gotten out <strong>of</strong> town.<br />
We were pretty incensed and we wanted to do something about it.<br />
Well, most <strong>of</strong> the activists in the group and the leaders <strong>of</strong> the Progressive<br />
miners decided--and this was the radical element that Jim<br />
talking about--we decided we were going to do somthing about this.<br />
They were going to run us whi.le we were defenseless, but maybe we<br />
were going to do something about not being defenseless. So we came<br />
back and we organized as many rifles as we could and as many men as<br />
we could trust and we moved back into Coulterville. We built ourself<br />
a fortress in Coulterville--an armed camp. We stayed down there far<br />
two weeks daring them to try to move us out <strong>of</strong> there. Our armed encampment<br />
remained i.n Coulterville for, oh, better than a week. We didn't<br />
attempt to infiltrate any farther down, but we had just made up our<br />
minds tha't they weren't going to run us complete out <strong>of</strong> there without<br />
some effort to defend ourselves. The important thing is this Mulkytown<br />
march--that happened in this Mulkeytotm march--is not so much<br />
thc ambush or the hirelings <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers as the neglect<br />
<strong>of</strong> the county--the breakdown nf county enforcement,<br />
There was a total conspiracy, an outright black conspiracy to deny<br />
the citizen--in this case the coal miner--<strong>of</strong> his elementary rights<br />
<strong>of</strong> marching peaceably and <strong>of</strong> demonstrating peaceably to further his<br />
union or to organize or to talk to people about unions or about the<br />
miner's problems. This was the thing that in retrospect seems even<br />
perhaps as black as the Watergate affair and Nixon's involvement in<br />
it. There was no outcry; there was no moral indignation and there<br />
was no investigation. There was not a word, not a syllable, on the<br />
part <strong>of</strong> the citizens, <strong>of</strong> the churches, <strong>of</strong> the state, the municipalities,<br />
<strong>of</strong> the federal governmcnt or any <strong>of</strong> its agencies to look into this<br />
total. breakdown <strong>of</strong> justice, <strong>of</strong> our liberties, a£ our freedoms--our<br />
so-called constitutional rights. So there wasn't anything done about<br />
it.<br />
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The governor sat up there--and I noticed according to the papers here<br />
recently that Horner is numbered among the greats like Adlai Stevenson<br />
and so forth--Governor Horner sat up there and did nothing. He<br />
raised no cry, no dissent, no objection to this breakdown <strong>of</strong> law.<br />
So you see we were pretty friendless and we had no money--we were<br />
penniless. We had been on strike now for eight or nine months. We<br />
had no food in the house--absolutely no food whatever. And there was<br />
no relief <strong>of</strong> any kind except what we raised on our own and rhat was<br />
insignificant.<br />
I don't think anyone can criticize too severely the people who remained<br />
bitter toward John Lewis. Perhaps they were a littLe foolish in their<br />
bitterness and their anger because in later events they could have<br />
utilized whatever resources, whatever piece <strong>of</strong> an organization they<br />
had remaining to bring about some consideration, some compromise,<br />
some concession from John Lewis--any kind <strong>of</strong> a concession which would<br />
have savcd thc senior miners who had worked in the mines forty and<br />
fifty years and had been United Mine Workers for fifty and seventyfive<br />
years. Because at that moment we could see that the Progressive<br />
Miners--we who were concerned about the welfare <strong>of</strong> the miners and<br />
their persons and their families--we cou1.d see we had been defeated.<br />
We had been totally defeated and there was absolutely no chance to<br />
expand the organization. We were 1.ooking for some way to bring about<br />
an amelioration <strong>of</strong> this condition, some cooperation bctweea the two<br />
organizations so that something could be salvaged, if only the benefit<br />
<strong>of</strong> the $150 a month which would accrue to these miners who had put<br />
fifty and sixty years in the coal mines.<br />
The I.ef,t-wingers they called us; they called us anarchists; they<br />
called us socialists; they called us every unthinkable name under the<br />
sun. We were destructionists; we were committing grave sins, but<br />
we proposed chat we work with the United Mine Workers at least to<br />
salvage the working conditions and to bring about some restoration<br />
<strong>of</strong> dignity among the mhers. You see, there were two factions<br />
fighting--two miner's factions--with the coal operators setting in<br />
between reaping the rewards. In that interim, the coal operator<br />
destroyed every condition we had ever built up in fifty and sixty<br />
years.<br />
We were killing each other, but the conditions were going sour likewise<br />
and nobody would stop long enough to look at this, to sense<br />
what was being done; what would be the fate <strong>of</strong> the Progressive<br />
Miners, especially if we continued this onward plunge <strong>of</strong> killing<br />
each other and fighting each other and permitting the operators to<br />
remain free and untrammeled to do whatever he wanted to do in order<br />
to exact more pr<strong>of</strong>its. We proposed organizational unity and oar first<br />
beginning was the DuQuoin case. We figured that this would be a good<br />
moral thing to latch onto which would later perhaps make it possible<br />
for us to work on other issues within the miarrs organization--to<br />
rectify some <strong>of</strong> the bad conditions that had been established over<br />
this period <strong>of</strong> time,<br />
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Then, the story is that when we began to cooperate with the United<br />
Mine Workers and began to get resdts; began to squeeze the operator<br />
and to hurt the conservative element who sought only to remain in<br />
<strong>of</strong>fice with that prestige--whatever it amounted to--they conspired<br />
to see that the lef,t-wingers, especially <strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> and Dave Reed,<br />
would get the axe. And so they instituted the circdation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
petitions, the resolutions, among other local unions and they got<br />
thirty-three <strong>of</strong> them, I believe, so send rrsolutions in rhere asking<br />
that the trial. board try us for hcrcsy, so to speak. Elcvcn locals<br />
appeared out <strong>of</strong> the thirty-three. I have a transcript on that trial.<br />
I quoted from that transcript in my pamphlet. We issued 25,000 <strong>of</strong><br />
those in the state--to every miner in the state. Friends <strong>of</strong> mine,<br />
they solicited and they made tIic money.<br />
So the endring is they tried us and they found us guilty and they<br />
removed us from <strong>of</strong>fice and from that day on, the Progressive Miners<br />
was just ended at that period for all practical purposes. The miners<br />
lost their benefits; we lost the battle, we lost the struggle. And<br />
John Lewis continued on from that point and finally Boyle became the<br />
president. You know the story <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers with the<br />
Yabl-onski murder and the candi~ions, the abominable conditions that<br />
they established; the bank they owned in Washington D.C., and how<br />
they had seventy or eighty million dollars ia that bank and no<br />
interest, The miners were being deprived <strong>of</strong> that interest money.<br />
So that's the long story. Both organizations, for practical puuposes,<br />
became less than a la.bor union. I'm hoping that: Arnvld<br />
Miller and the new regime <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers wS11 bring<br />
about some restoration <strong>of</strong> dignity there-I hope.<br />
Q. At the time that you were tried, what <strong>of</strong>fice did you hold?<br />
A. I was an executive board member <strong>of</strong> district six--the largest district<br />
in IlLinois <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Mine Workers.<br />
Q. And what <strong>of</strong>fice did Dave Reed hold?<br />
A. President--state president.<br />
Q. To go back just a bit, you said that after the ballots were<br />
stolen, "we. seceded." Who did you mean by we?<br />
A. The ProgressTve Miners element <strong>of</strong> the state <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong>, practically<br />
speaking, but later on wc discovered that we didn't have the<br />
state <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong>. We only had, counting the exonerated members,<br />
some 20,000. We had probably the majority <strong>of</strong> the miners in 1ll.inois<br />
at that time--working miners--but we ncver succeeded extending our<br />
lines beyond perhaps four or fjvc counties, That was <strong>Springfield</strong>,<br />
Nokomis, Gillespie, Edwardsville, Collinsville, one or two little<br />
places in Marissa, and one or two lirtlc places in Harrisburg.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> Batruello<br />
Q. How do you go about organi.zing a ma.rch?<br />
A. You're an organizer and you go into a cornunity and you look<br />
around for its social climate, its ideological climate, and you find<br />
out who and what people arc and what element they belong to ideologically.<br />
Then you try to pick out one or possibly two, alert, knowledgable,<br />
somewhat liberal person and you start with that: one man or two<br />
men. You gather momen-tum by working through them and bringing others<br />
into your little secret meetings--usually clandestine meetings.<br />
Q. So even when you started organizing for the Progressives, it had<br />
to be secret?<br />
A. Well, we didn't have too many protective laws in that period<br />
prior to the legislation <strong>of</strong> those laws granting workers the right to<br />
belong to the union--NLRB'P--anyone who associated with the union or<br />
attempted to organize or was known. to be interested in the union, he<br />
was fired, So in this respect it had to remain secrer until you got<br />
your majority and then you petitioned for an election.<br />
Q. This was for both Progressi,ves and Uniteds? They both had to<br />
organize secretly?<br />
A. Well, in our Progressive-United Mine Workers struggle, the hazard<br />
was enemy retaliation, you know. If you held a meeting, they coald<br />
break it up, or if you were in their territory, where they had<br />
control; they nor only broke your meeting up, they'd shoot you--they<br />
killed you.<br />
Q. The Uniteds would shoot you?<br />
A. Oh sure, <strong>of</strong> course they would. Of course they would; <strong>of</strong> course<br />
they would.<br />
Q. After you seceded from the United Mine Workers, how would you<br />
get in touch with the men---to form the protest march to Plulkeytown?<br />
Who organized the march?<br />
A. We did. The Progrcssive Miners element here in the northern part<br />
05 thc state. I'm caUing Gillespic rhc northern part <strong>of</strong> the state.<br />
Q. So you were in on the organizational part, too.<br />
A. Oh yes.<br />
Q. I'm interested in how you got in touch with all those guys; how<br />
you set it up.<br />
A. Well, you see, when we seccdcd and held our first temporary cbnvention,<br />
we became aware <strong>of</strong> the fact that we did not have solidarity<br />
*NLRB - National Labor Relati.ons Board<br />
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among the Tllinois miners completely; that there was some dissent<br />
against seces~ion itse1.f. Wc also knew very, very much, that in many<br />
<strong>of</strong> the <strong>Illinois</strong> coal mining camps--particularly in those that were<br />
dominated by the Peabody Coal Company--that had so much control in<br />
cheir community and over the miners themselves, that fear was the<br />
one thing that kept miners from declaring themselves or supporting<br />
any issue. Faced with those two obstacles, particularly those two<br />
obstacles, we knew we had to do some demonstrating, some marching,<br />
some advocating, so we conceived the march.<br />
Q. Who else was in on the conception <strong>of</strong> t'he march?<br />
A. All <strong>of</strong> the <strong>of</strong>ficers.<br />
Q. Who were they?<br />
A. Claude Pearcy, I3FI.l IZeck; 31.1 <strong>of</strong> them who later became conservative<br />
and tried me. They were for it.<br />
Q. Kekel?<br />
A. Keck, Ozanic, all <strong>of</strong> them were in favor <strong>of</strong> the march. Nobody<br />
objected to the marc'h. A1.l <strong>of</strong> them supported thc. march. All <strong>of</strong> them<br />
did their utmost to make it a success.<br />
Q. Did you contact people by telephone?<br />
A. Oh, we telephoned, we gave ourselves about, as I remember, about<br />
two weeks to organize it. But we had a spirit! At the inception <strong>of</strong><br />
the Progressive M,iners in 1932, when we had finally decided we weren't<br />
going to allow John Lewis to either reduce our wages or to break up<br />
our autonomy, I, in all my 74 years never experienced such a spirit<br />
<strong>of</strong> brotherhood that existed in that young organization in its beginning.<br />
It did something that I have never witnessed in my life before. This<br />
is <strong>of</strong>ten true in all communities. There are little feuds, lit~le<br />
neighborhood feuds between people for religious, economic, or political<br />
reasons, They don.'t speak to each other--there is an estrangement<br />
among individuals. But when the Progressive Miners developed,<br />
we decided we were gobg to march with our lives for a good cause,<br />
As I said, I have never seen such a spiriL <strong>of</strong> brotherhood. Overnight,<br />
instantaneously it seemed, everybody became actually as close as<br />
possible to being brothers.<br />
They shared their little food; if one had a little more than the<br />
other, they shared it* They marched. There wasn't an onerous task<br />
<strong>of</strong> any kind that we could ask, that they wouldn'r instantly comply.<br />
Then, when the defeat began to set in--I say defeat, not defeat <strong>of</strong><br />
the spirit, not defeat <strong>of</strong> their dignity, not defeat <strong>of</strong> their cause,<br />
but when the overwhelming odds began to appear insurmountable to the<br />
people-that bitterness remained with them about John Lewis, that<br />
hatred, that deep seated hatred. And you can understand that I<br />
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among others--I was perhaps the gang leader <strong>of</strong> the thing--conceived<br />
the idea that we better move to salvage something out <strong>of</strong> this wreckage<br />
because we were finished.<br />
If you wa.nted to be logic-a1 and cool, calm and collected about it,<br />
wc were defeated and we better do something about restoring the conditions<br />
<strong>of</strong> the miners. And out <strong>of</strong> this organizational cooperation,<br />
hopefully we would bring about, ultimately,organize unity on a decent<br />
basis. That hatred was too much for me. They killed me in the process;<br />
they killed my person and killed my reputation and there just wasn't<br />
anything too bad thcy cou1.d do against: me. They would da it because<br />
I was in their minds, in their minds. I was betraying a holy cause.<br />
1 was betraying a trust by daring even to talk about organizational<br />
unity or obtaining the rel.ease <strong>of</strong> the DuQuoin boys. They were willing<br />
to sacrifice more lives, more property, and more working conditions,<br />
somehow believing that that wou1.d win for them in the end. But it<br />
was not so, <strong>of</strong> course. But I forgi.ve them for their blia.dness, for<br />
their ignorance, for their hatred, and their bitterness that impeded<br />
their foresight in this thing.<br />
I don't have too much criticism to make; 1 have the satisfaction.<br />
That's some thirty or forty years ago and I've had many, many people<br />
come to me--many, many miners--and apol-ogize pr<strong>of</strong>usely. I figured<br />
out later that the loss <strong>of</strong> the benefits that would have accrued from<br />
the United Mine Worker Benefit Fund would have amomred to $f0,000<br />
for each miner, from that time to this time. NOW you've got to<br />
understand how bad that was. See, we had no relief in that period.<br />
There was nothing, nothing. And here are miners who have been working<br />
in a mine--my father for one--for fifty or sixty years, And now when<br />
rhe Progressive Miners failed, thcy failed with their benefit. They<br />
paid benefits for a month <strong>of</strong> a few months--I don't know how many<br />
months. L left it eventually but the United Mine Workers kept paying<br />
$100, $150, $200 a month for all those years. Now that could have<br />
bcen rcdccmed.<br />
J can't describe the conditions <strong>of</strong> th.e miners. We were so poor honey,<br />
that we couldn't spil.1 food. We had to take shot guns and borrow<br />
shells and sometimes steal shells to go out and get rabbits and<br />
squirrels to eat. And fish nets, we'd seine in violation, <strong>of</strong> the<br />
law using one hundred foot tramoy to get fish and bring tons <strong>of</strong> it<br />
and fry it up for the whole community. That's how we ate--nuts and<br />
berries and fish and squirrels and ra.bbits.<br />
Q. Where were you living at that time?<br />
A. Wilsonville. But that's how the miners lost their chance to<br />
redeem something.<br />
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Q. Would you say that the sccaling <strong>of</strong> the ballots triggered the<br />
formation <strong>of</strong> the Progressives?<br />
A. That tirggered it, but. there was among--let me say this. 1111-<br />
nois was probably the most articulate, knowledgeable section <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Uni.ted Mine Workers in affairs <strong>of</strong> uniontsm, <strong>of</strong> economic and politics.<br />
The more radical element resided in <strong>Illinois</strong>, When,.the destruction<br />
<strong>of</strong> the auronomy was taking place in Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana,<br />
Canada, Pennsylvania and other coal producing states, we were raising<br />
hell here in <strong>Illinois</strong> about what they were dohg to the other miners<br />
and what the miners were permitting the United Mine Workers to do to<br />
them. That too, brought about some kind <strong>of</strong> estrangement between the<br />
outlying coal districts and the <strong>Illinois</strong> miner,<br />
We were criticizing them for allowing John Lewis t6 tear up their<br />
economy and the right to elect their own <strong>of</strong>ficials. This has been<br />
a sacred right founded back in the beginning <strong>of</strong> the United Mine<br />
Workers--the right: to elect your <strong>of</strong>ficers and the right <strong>of</strong> referendum<br />
on scale matrers. This is sacrosanct with us, but the miners in the<br />
outlying states didn't care; they took it lying down and when John<br />
Lewis got to our borders--the last fortress you know--we just didn't<br />
stand still Lor it,<br />
Tn retrospect, I look back and say that the srcession <strong>of</strong> the Progrcssive<br />
Miners from the United Minc Workers, was totally jus~ifiable and can<br />
be defended better today than it could at the moment--totally justifiable.<br />
We failed in our battle. We railed in winning the struggle,<br />
but that's not to say it was not justified; it was totally and perhaps<br />
belated maybe ten, fifteen or twenty years. We should have been<br />
fighting John Lewis a long time before that' What we did know about<br />
it--we couldn't win.<br />
When we used to go to the conventions, the. United Mine Workers conventions,<br />
the radical element from <strong>Illinois</strong> was forever in.ttroductng<br />
resolutions for industrial unionism, which later became the CLO.<br />
Convention after convention after convention, we were forever pestering<br />
thc United Mine Workers and John Lewis to adopt a course <strong>of</strong><br />
industrial unionism--organizing the mass-producing industry. He was<br />
forever gavelling us down, out <strong>of</strong> order. He called us Bohemians from<br />
<strong>Illinois</strong> who had come over in a steerage boats, the. cattle boat, that<br />
had to stop every time it blew its whistle. And we did not prevail,<br />
that's all.<br />
9, Well, what was he in favor <strong>of</strong>?<br />
A. Well, to make it as short as possible, John had hallucinations<br />
about being the wise Ring Solomon with complete control <strong>of</strong> the union<br />
in the belief that the miners were too darned ignorant to handle<br />
their own affairs. It had to be his concept. That's what he worked<br />
on; that's what he developed in the United Mine Workers; that is the<br />
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course he pursued. That's not to say that John Lewis didn't do some<br />
good thtngs--he did do some good things. I particularly remember<br />
the incident when he defied the United Sratcs Government and went<br />
on strike during our World War period and for that I lauded and<br />
praised the man, Another incident occurred in Herrin, <strong>Illinois</strong> when<br />
the coal operators in some company in Chicago wanted to develop a<br />
mine during the strike. John Lewis gave them permission to develop<br />
the mine but not to produce any coal., and that could nor be done<br />
until after the strike was settled. Well they violated that agreement.<br />
As a result, they fortified thc mine and scabbed it and<br />
attempted to produce coal which resulted in a conflict down there<br />
which killed some twcnty-one miners, coal operators, scabs, superintendents<br />
and so on and so Forth.<br />
Well John Lewis spent over a million, two million dollars to keep<br />
miners from going to jail in that thing. I consider that very justifiable<br />
and for that J gave him credit. John got hallucinations about<br />
being King Solomon--about being the b5g boy; the only one being conversant<br />
with coal mines and their solutions. On that theory he<br />
brought about the entire destruction <strong>of</strong> the referendum and autonomy.<br />
You know the history <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers after that.<br />
Q. After the ballots were stolen, you said that you attended the<br />
convention before you organized the Mulkeptown March. Where was the<br />
convent ion?<br />
A. The first convention, a temporary convention, was held in Benld,<br />
Q. In Benld. About how many people attended?<br />
A. We had a fairly nice representation. That included about the<br />
same number <strong>of</strong> membership that eventaully became the <strong>of</strong>fical Progressive<br />
Miners Union. I'd say representative <strong>of</strong> about 25,000 miners.<br />
Q. How many men were actually there?<br />
A. Oh, 1'd say probably three or four hundred.<br />
Q. Where dSd you hold it?<br />
A. In the Benld Theatre. It's not there any more, but there was a<br />
theatre nn Central Avenue--it's since been demolished.<br />
Q. And from there the concept <strong>of</strong> the march came?<br />
A, We elected temporary <strong>of</strong>ficers there. Claude Pearcy hecame the<br />
acting president, Bill Keck became secretary-treasurer and we had,<br />
a fellow from Taylorvillc who was vice-president--1 don't remember<br />
his name. And then we had the problem <strong>of</strong> organking the remainder<br />
<strong>of</strong> the miners which resulted in the Mulkeytom March, among other<br />
things.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
Q. Just organizing the march must be a fantastically big job.<br />
A, It wasn't. You've got to recall that spirit I talked about that<br />
pervaded the miners. The most wholesome, the most enveloping thing<br />
you've ever seen in your whole life. I'm telling you, former enemies<br />
were embracing and loving each other--carrying on something like<br />
brothers. Actually, there were no secrets. If they had a half<br />
pound <strong>of</strong> cheese, they shared it among five people if necessary,<br />
Things they've never done. A11 greed, all selfishness seemed to<br />
evaporate over nigh,t.<br />
Q. Was this because you a.11 Felt like you were under the gun <strong>of</strong> the<br />
United Miners?<br />
A. Well, you see we had been 1-accrated with John ~ewis' destruction<br />
<strong>of</strong> autonomy in the outlying states. This wasn't an overnight feeling<br />
with the <strong>Illinois</strong> miners. We clccted our own <strong>of</strong>ficers. We refused<br />
to pay dues to John Lewis when he tried to interfere and intercede<br />
in our affairs. So wc'd go back to Fishwick and tka.t crowd and we'd<br />
research that and lawsuits after lawsuits between the International<br />
and United Mine Workers District 12 here.<br />
And so that feeling <strong>of</strong> disloyalty that existed among the <strong>Illinois</strong><br />
miners, contrary to what feelings existed in other states toward him,<br />
was deep seated at thc time when we seceded. The stealing <strong>of</strong> the<br />
ballots just merely triggered things. Now, we did this, we remained<br />
calm in the situation pretty much. We asked htm for another referendum<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficially and pleaded that that was the only solution for this<br />
stealing <strong>of</strong> the ballots. Of course, he remaincd adamant and stern.<br />
Be said, "NO. Ir's an emergency. I declare it so and the $5.00<br />
scale is in effect and all miners are asked to go back to work,"<br />
Many years later on, 1 saw another incident <strong>of</strong> this spontaneous<br />
jelling <strong>of</strong> the people in Spain; when Franco marched on Spain and h~<br />
invaded the peninsula <strong>of</strong> Spain and finally got to the gates <strong>of</strong> Barcelona.<br />
And there the people LOO, rose up, and almost defenseless,<br />
almost painless, and without a friend in the world--including the<br />
United States--almost pulled thac thing out.<br />
Q. After the convention, what did you do personally to get ready<br />
for the march?<br />
A. Nothing. J~st put on my pants and shoes--all I had. Helped put<br />
sandwiches i,n the car and joined that caravan just like the rest <strong>of</strong><br />
them,<br />
Q, You packed food, though?<br />
A. Oh, everybody packed a little food--what food we had. We didn't<br />
have a hell <strong>of</strong> a lot .<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
Q. Cooking utensils?<br />
A. Some <strong>of</strong> them had some.<br />
Q<br />
Blankets?<br />
A. Oh yes.<br />
Q. How long did you plan to stay?<br />
A. As long as it was required, if we could have gotten in there.<br />
We were going to do some "Billy Graham" stuff on them down there.<br />
9. What town were you heading for?<br />
A. We were heading for Franklin County. That was Ziegler, Sesser,<br />
Benton, Orient No. I, No. 2, and No. 3 and DuQuoin; that's where all<br />
the mines are. WE were just going to divide our forces there and<br />
put a contingent at each mine. We were going to picket and demonstrate;<br />
we were going to do some preachments and advocating, same<br />
pleading, some beseeching, some imploring--anything that was required<br />
vocally to get them to respond.<br />
Q. What timc <strong>of</strong> day did you start out?<br />
A. In the morning.<br />
Q. In the morning. And you started from Wilsonville?<br />
A. No, we started from Gilles,pic.<br />
Q. You started from Gillcspic. About how many? It's hard for me<br />
to imagine, even thc cars coming in from all different directions.<br />
What was it like?<br />
A. Oh, it was forty-five miles long. Tt w as disciplined and organized.<br />
Q. Gi1lespi.e was the beginning, and thcn you picked up others as you<br />
went: on?<br />
A. Contingents all the way down.<br />
Q. Bow many cars did you have fn GiUespie when you started out?<br />
A. Oh, my, I guess we were twenty miles long when we left Gillespie.<br />
<strong>Springfield</strong>, Taylorville, Nokomis, Taylor Springs and all those mines<br />
over there; Staunton and all the mines around here.<br />
Q. And they all came to Gi.ll.espie ,to join in?<br />
A. Everything north and east a.nd west <strong>of</strong> Gillespie came to Gillespie<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
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and then we picked up contingents at Solomon, Edwardsville, Collinsvil.le,<br />
Marissa, and Be1levill.e an.d all <strong>of</strong> zzhose towns down there.<br />
Q. How 1on.g did it take for all <strong>of</strong> you to congregate?<br />
A. I don't think I can put into words the discipline, the organization,<br />
thc unity, the solidarity, tllc sweep <strong>of</strong> brotherhood that: pervaded.<br />
Every man was an organizer. Every man was a king. Nobody waited for<br />
anybody for orders. Everybody did what was necessary and out <strong>of</strong> that<br />
revolutionary spirit--it was a revolutionary spirit for the miners,<br />
it was. They had never read about Kropotkin; they had never read<br />
about [inaudible]. They had ncver read about Eugene V. Debs; they<br />
had never read about Clarence Darrow or Robert lngersoll or anybody<br />
else, bur that moment there became a sense <strong>of</strong> unity and solidarity<br />
that required no general, no lieutenant, no corporals.<br />
Everybody was a corporal or a general unto himself, so you can imagine<br />
how well. disciplined, how well organized, how efficient this thing<br />
was. Nobody had a worry. Every little car was a citadel unto itself<br />
and they were cognizant <strong>of</strong> the fact thar they were a part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
larger caravan and that they had to do what: was the right thing, the<br />
disciplined thing, in order that their brothers would be comfortable<br />
and would not be put out. I don't think I ran put into words better<br />
than that, but that's how that thing worked and that's how rit will<br />
work in a revolution when the social revolution occurs in America--<br />
the same way. After we've experimented with a few more centuries <strong>of</strong><br />
degredat ion.<br />
Q. Who did you ri.de with?<br />
A. I rode in the truck, <strong>of</strong> all things. Standing up.<br />
Q. What kind <strong>of</strong> a truck?<br />
A. A big old cattle truck with side boards on it.<br />
Q. How many <strong>of</strong> you were in there?<br />
A. Oh, there must haw been about forty <strong>of</strong> us in there.<br />
Q. Really packed in. How did you decide to go in the truck--just<br />
because there was room?<br />
A. I wanted to be up in front. I was pretty active in my region<br />
herc and I wanted to be up in front. We sort <strong>of</strong> interspersed our<br />
more informed men along the lines so that if anything came up,these<br />
would bc somebody there that they coold look to or kind <strong>of</strong> organize<br />
it, bur nothing came <strong>of</strong> it--nothing.<br />
Q. Who made the decision not to carry guns?<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
Sac-k Eat tuelln<br />
A. We had a meeting before,<br />
Q. Did this occur at the convention?<br />
A. This was held in Gillespie at the ci.ty hall. That was the leaders<br />
<strong>of</strong> the movement and there it was decided that it would be peaceful.<br />
Q. Was therc any discussion on that pori.nt, ever?<br />
A. Not too much, not too much because somehow or other it seemed<br />
likc we were seeking to prove that we were going to be law-abiding.<br />
And after all, we wanted to win miners, not alienate them, and shooting<br />
wouldn't have been a good form <strong>of</strong> soliciting support. We figured<br />
that; we learned differently, <strong>of</strong> course.<br />
Q. How was that word passed down--just by word <strong>of</strong> mouth? You never<br />
had to search cars yourself to make sure thac some hothead wasn't<br />
involved?<br />
A. No, no, never. Never disputed a man's integrity, or word or his<br />
honesty. We said this is going to be a peaceful march; it's going<br />
to be one in which we're going to articulate our demands, our request<br />
for help, and we are going to plead to . . . , <strong>Illinois</strong> miners had<br />
always been a solid unit up until then--a pretty much solid unit,<br />
There was some variance between the northern miners <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> and<br />
the southern miners in T>ittle Egypt, <strong>of</strong> course that related to more<br />
religious, economic and political differences. But when it came to<br />
thc mine problems, we were pretty solid. For instance, we never had<br />
to put on picket lines in <strong>Illinois</strong>--never.<br />
Q. You never had to what?<br />
A. We never had to establish a picket line in a stlrike in <strong>Illinois</strong>.<br />
When we went on strike--we stayed home, Nobody ever dared to go<br />
through a line; there was no picket line, that's how solfd we were.<br />
Q. Bow do you explain 1llinoi.s' solidari~y?<br />
A. Prom experience, hard, cruel experiences in the past, There<br />
were some quite painful struggles took p1,ace in <strong>Illinois</strong>. Like Virden,<br />
you know. Do you remember John Al-tgeld? Governor Altgeld?<br />
He was in <strong>of</strong>fice when they tried to scab the Virden mines. They<br />
brought Negroes in with box cars and there were big killings there.<br />
Some <strong>of</strong> the miners were not allowed eo bc buried in Virdcn; they<br />
buried them in Mount Olive.<br />
Q. So you think it was the early mine struggles here that kept the<br />
miners aware <strong>of</strong> their autonomy?<br />
A. There's another explanation for chxt, too. The <strong>Illinois</strong> miners--<br />
the radical element <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> miners--were always great activists.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Bartucllo 35<br />
They were great activists; they were busybody's in the field <strong>of</strong> politics,<br />
and economics, sociology--affecting minds and human welfare,<br />
And they had big mouths. They were always making speeches all the<br />
time, you know, platform orators, rabble rousers they called us,<br />
And that form <strong>of</strong> education left its seed; it germinated a little in<br />
<strong>Illinois</strong>, I think.<br />
Many years Inter, no, not many years later, I put in time in Kentucky<br />
at Hazard, West Virginia, Pennsylvania. I afltendcd all <strong>of</strong> those<br />
stccl strikes Ln Steubenville and Clarenton, Pennsylvania and the<br />
Keys Port and all <strong>of</strong> those places. I notices that those miners and<br />
those factory workers were not as active as we were here in <strong>Illinois</strong>.<br />
Wc had little groups, you know, we formed llittle groups. This might<br />
surprise you. buring the time when I was a member <strong>of</strong> the Unired Mine<br />
Workers, still residing in Wilsonville, we formed a little 1,W.W.<br />
group wichin the United Mine Workers. We carried on in Wilsonville<br />
and had a lot <strong>of</strong> members from around here.<br />
Q. How large did that group get to be?<br />
A. Numerically not too great, but effectively out <strong>of</strong> rhis world.<br />
We put out mare propaganda and more newspapers and periodicals--<br />
labor periodicals. We brought speakers into this country here like<br />
Ralph Chaplin, the editor <strong>of</strong> the Industrial Worker one time and the<br />
author <strong>of</strong> many great I.W.W, songs. Be was probably the predominate<br />
labor songwriter <strong>of</strong> the period. Big Bill Thompson--we had them all<br />
here; we would bring anybody we could get. We'd go around and collect<br />
ni.cke1.s from each other and then we'd have little beer parti.es and<br />
picnics and rake a little mnney. We'd get a little money and bring<br />
an anarchist speaker in; we'd brtng a socialist speaker in--Eugene V.<br />
Debs. We had a group going all the time.<br />
And somehow or other, once you organize along ideological lines <strong>of</strong><br />
this kind, it seems like you always know where to find such persons<br />
in another town so you form a little group and that little group<br />
gets a little bigger and a little bigger. And <strong>Illinois</strong> represents<br />
that kind <strong>of</strong> a development in the. mining industry. Now haw many<br />
encamprnenrs in the United States among the coal miners or in the<br />
factory towns carried on like that? Did you know that at one time<br />
we used to have our own dramas? We produced our own dramas in this<br />
coal mining camp--our own shows. They weren'r all that refined, but<br />
call it drama if you want to, hut that's what we did. We would have<br />
great speakers, grea.t spea.kers. It's all. gone by the board.<br />
Q. What was the rcactian <strong>of</strong> the I.ocal population to your march?<br />
A. That's a good question, that's a dandy question. It gets us<br />
into another era, another phase. It makes no difference how active,<br />
how concerned a communi.ty becomes, socially speaking. you've always<br />
got the reactionary and conservative el.ements that remin. They vary<br />
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in some cases, some small, some rases a little larger, but these<br />
people, this element is thcre and how to move them out <strong>of</strong> that rut<br />
1'1.1 never know. But at the height <strong>of</strong> our movement here in <strong>Illinois</strong>,<br />
in organizational matters at least, we always had a certain numher<br />
<strong>of</strong> citizens in the community, for one reason or another, that represent<br />
the primitive idea; ,the obstinate idea <strong>of</strong> rernainiag in the rut<br />
and refusing to move forward despite any ecchnological development,<br />
despite the changes in the world. Primarily we found that it was<br />
religious in basis.<br />
The Father had told them too much about the Kingdom <strong>of</strong> God, you know,<br />
and forgot to tell them about the social implicatfons <strong>of</strong> the moment--<br />
the realittes <strong>of</strong> the moment. And they became immersed in this theology,<br />
in this superstition, and they were wairiag for, I suppose, God<br />
to rectify the social condirion and they remained the backward element<br />
<strong>of</strong> their community--the obstacles for our social progress. Whenever<br />
there was a strike, you heard their voices <strong>of</strong> lament. And if th.ey<br />
were political1.y oriented, they believed <strong>of</strong> course that the electoral<br />
process--either Humphrey or -Johnson--was going to save the world, or<br />
Kennedy or somebody else. Now I'm being a little Sarcastic, but<br />
th%s is my concept <strong>of</strong> it. And so you had the political schtsm, 'St<br />
was the Democrats that said, "My Democratic. candidate is the best.<br />
You elect him and you're going to resol-ve all your economic problems."<br />
And the other side was just as vocif erous about voting for the Republicans.<br />
That schismremainedand they forgot about their own destiny,<br />
their own welfare, their own solutions for their own probl.ems,.<br />
And so you had that element in your community, but what happened there<br />
is if you gained the support <strong>of</strong> the majozity <strong>of</strong> the community in your<br />
economic endeavors, or your political advocacies, they controlled<br />
the town, so to speak. The reaction element became silent in the<br />
face <strong>of</strong> that majority; they wouldn't cause you too much trouble if<br />
you had that much control; they remained silent because <strong>of</strong> the fear<br />
<strong>of</strong> the majority, you see. But where you didn't have that activist<br />
group, that development, then the rational element actually controlled<br />
in all sieuations. It di.dnlt make any difference what it was; if it<br />
was a social rissue, amnesty, birth control or what have you. This<br />
e1emen.t remainw in control and this i.s the direction in which this<br />
community always flows.<br />
Q. Are some cotrununities better than others? Could you name a few <strong>of</strong><br />
the so-called good ones?<br />
A. Wcll now, Gi1S.espi.e always had a socialist element--good strong<br />
socialist element. That socialist element showed up in all questions<br />
<strong>of</strong> politics; all questions <strong>of</strong> socia.1 concern. You could expecr a<br />
decent repsesenta,tion on any issue which came into that community.<br />
Whether it was civic, political or economic, it always showed in<br />
what took place. Benld, on the contrary, now this is an Italian and<br />
I'm Italian by descent. Something happened there; they lost the<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 31<br />
leadership there one time back. It used to be a hell <strong>of</strong> a town at<br />
one time, but everybody became a silent: social traveler--"We'll<br />
accept what is and the hell with tomorrow."<br />
So the community just sort <strong>of</strong> strayed waywardly away from all social.<br />
concern and it showed, too, in all these things I've menrioned and<br />
described. You could expect them to he reactionary in the mine situation<br />
if thc confrontation was between the coal miner and the coal<br />
operator on justifiable grounds. They were always lamenting that<br />
if they didn't come right out and say, "I'm against that," they'd<br />
say, "~et's take another course, let's reasan with them. After all,<br />
if wc lose this little condition, what the hell, that's not the end<br />
<strong>of</strong> the world. We'll accept it and go on." You know, things like<br />
that huild and develop and finally cngulf everybody. "Compromise,<br />
compromise. "<br />
Now Collinsville is Progressive. You go down there on a mine or<br />
civic issue, a political issue, speakers would be always good.<br />
Thcy're there with their money; they're there with the support.<br />
You know our labor and revolutionary periodics, they disappeared<br />
from the face <strong>of</strong> the United States a few years back. Evcry community<br />
years ago used to have flaming labor press, you know, in one form or<br />
another--magazines, papers. Everybody had a good paper like the<br />
Industrial Worker --, like the Socialist Paper, the Synd&calis,t, the<br />
---<br />
Anarchist. Everybody was distributing and disseminating literature<br />
in these communities. Of course we looked for it; we developed it;<br />
we sought it. And so the communities that had good social advoca~es,<br />
they were friendly, they were gregarious, they treated you right,<br />
There was no fighting, no stealing; we didn't have to lock our doors,<br />
our cars. We could leave a car out there with thirty million dollars<br />
worth <strong>of</strong> bullion in it--nobody would ever touch it. We had no palfcc;<br />
we didn't use no jail--we talked against jail.<br />
We had no churches in our towns. If a Catholic died and he wanted<br />
services from the Catholics, then a priest would come from Bunker<br />
Hill at a little chapel there, just for that purpose. We wanted to<br />
debate with a Catholic prZest about the question <strong>of</strong> religion and<br />
social things; we challenged him to debate either in his house <strong>of</strong><br />
worship or the saloon, we didn't care where--or On the street. So<br />
we had no churches; we had no polic-e; we had no guns except to hunt<br />
for food. WE had a hel"l <strong>of</strong> a community--had a hell <strong>of</strong> a region.<br />
Q. When you say community, you're meaning total community, not just<br />
the mine workers clement but the whole town?<br />
A. 1'11 tell you how Tar reaching it was. During the formation <strong>of</strong><br />
the Progressive Miners and the strike which ensued, we ran out <strong>of</strong><br />
food. Nobody had any food. Children were hungry and starving even<br />
in our town, especially those with eight or nine children in a family<br />
and some had ten.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 38<br />
Conditions became so bad and this was in the midst <strong>of</strong> all the farming<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners and all that ensued. The boys came to me<br />
one day and said, "<strong>Jack</strong>, you've been gone for a couple weeks down in<br />
Franklin County, but these kids are starving to death here." 1 said,<br />
"Why in the hell didn't you do something abotit it?" "Well, we're<br />
waiting for you to come back." 1 said, "Okay," so I organized a<br />
truck and four or five fellows and one night in the stealth <strong>of</strong> the<br />
darkness, we went out to Fred Stems--a farmer who lived out just west<br />
<strong>of</strong> Wilsonville--and we killed one <strong>of</strong> his steers and dragged it ta<br />
the hard road, took it to the basement <strong>of</strong> one <strong>of</strong> the fellow workers,<br />
butchered it, and distributed meat at five o'clock in the morning.<br />
A year and a half later the mines hadn't been working too much and<br />
what little work we were getting was on a division <strong>of</strong> work <strong>of</strong> five<br />
to one. The mine l~ad to work five shifts in order for US to get one<br />
shift--we were dividing work. And so we were making about five dol.lars<br />
a week, sometimes five dollars for two weeks. That was our pay. Our<br />
annua, wage in that period was about six hundred dollars or seven<br />
hundred dollars.<br />
A year and a half later, I went around among the boys and I said give<br />
me a nickel, a dime, whatever you got. 1 didn't even tell them--some<br />
<strong>of</strong> them you can't talk to you know. I collected $37.50, 1: drove out<br />
with a fellow to Fred Stems place and hc was fixing fences, hamering<br />
that fence. He looked up--he knew me--and said, '%i, <strong>Jack</strong>, what the<br />
hell brings you out here?" And I said, "f came out to pay you some<br />
money." He straightened up and looked at me and said, "You don't<br />
owe me any money. " And I said, "Yes I do. I' I' Naw," he said, "You<br />
don't owe me any money." You know, T had rented a house from him once<br />
before and he said, "You paid your rent." And I said, "No, I owe you<br />
tl<br />
some money, Naw, I' hc said, "You don't owe me any money. You're<br />
kidding. I' I said, "No, hcrc's what happened: About a year ago we<br />
were hungry. The kids were starving, we needed food, protein especially,<br />
and we came out here one night and butchered one <strong>of</strong> your big<br />
black steers. I would say that he weighed, just guessing, 1100 pounds."<br />
And T reached in my pocket and said, "Now I collected $37.50, that's<br />
every nickel I could get to pay for that damn steer." And he said,<br />
"Well., 1'11 be go to hell .I1 He said, "You know, I didn't even miss<br />
that stecr." I said, "Well, that's what happened.'' ell," he said,<br />
"Now by gosh, I didn't miss that steer, but since you tell me, thaz's<br />
my contribution to the kids and the strike." I said, "NO, I've<br />
collrcted this dam money, 1 didn't even put it down. I don't even<br />
know who in the hell I got it from now." And I stuck it in his pocket,<br />
So you see, he had bccn molded and melted into this kind <strong>of</strong> philosophical<br />
thing that had occurred in the village.<br />
Well, we had mother experience there. Nellie Gahagirn and two children,<br />
about two and three years old--her husband had left her, had abandoned<br />
her. Before that happened, they had bought this house, years before,<br />
on a financing basis and they were paying so much a month for it.<br />
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We11 after thc husband abandoned her, well Nellie was helpless. She<br />
had two little children and the home was being financed by the Staunton<br />
Building and Finance Company. One day, while wc were working and<br />
were unaware <strong>of</strong> it, the Sheri.ff came and evicted her from this home<br />
and moved her furniture into an old dil.apidated windowless old house<br />
that had served as a church years ago for a little old Baptist group<br />
or something--maybe five or ten people--and they had abandoned it,<br />
No windows, no doors, no nothing, no well,.no lights and there were<br />
some old rotten pews that had been left there--and they just piled<br />
her furniture in there.<br />
When 1 got home from the mine that night--1 was president <strong>of</strong> the local<br />
at the time--I came home and sct my dinner pail down on the floor and<br />
Tillie said, "Nellie Gahagan is in there, in the living room. She<br />
wants to talk to you." So I went in and Nellie Gahagan's father<br />
owned all that land on which that mine was developed and she had two<br />
brothers, from riches to poverty. Anyhow, she said, "~ack, today<br />
the Sheriff moved my furniture out <strong>of</strong> my house and me and my kids<br />
don't have any place to live and I just want you to come and see<br />
what they did with my furniture--the house they put it in." And 1<br />
said, "Well, I' 11 be glad to Nellie. " I fold Tillie I would eat<br />
supper later. So I walked down to this house about five or seven<br />
blocks from my place and there was this fusaiturc all just jammed--<br />
just rhrew in there. I said, "Oh, this is awful." I looked around<br />
and I said, "Well Nellie, 1'11 tell you, I: don't, think there is anything<br />
I can do for you other than make a collection." I said very<br />
sternly, "You know the law has taken its course and T can't violate<br />
the law you know," She said, "Well, 1 didn't expect you to <strong>Jack</strong>.<br />
I just wanted you or somebody to see what they did to me and my<br />
kids." So I said, "Well, 1'11 see about making a collection for you<br />
Nellie. I'<br />
Well this happened to be Wednesday night--our local meeting night.<br />
Gee, I only had about two or three hours to work. We'd meet at nine<br />
o'clock and we wouldn't adjourn sometime until midnight--we'd convene<br />
ar that hour anyhow. Anyhow, in that three hours I organized another<br />
truck and about six or seven other good fellow workers, or eight--as<br />
many as I thought I needed--and I ordered my friend, Eddie Bollard,<br />
to pick Mrs. Gahagan up, oh,about ten o'clock. I said, "1'11 adjourn<br />
the goddamned meeting even if they're trying to impeach the presidenr."<br />
I said, "I'll adjourn the meeting about ten o'clock and we'll be back<br />
down here with this truck and we'll load this damned furniture back<br />
up and take it righr back to her home." And we Set it up. Well,<br />
Eddie brought Mrs, Gahagan hack as pcr instructions, exactly ar ten<br />
o'clock, no, eleven o'clock and dumped her <strong>of</strong>f at the place where<br />
she had been evicted.<br />
And now she fills in the story the next day when I come home. She<br />
was sitting Tn my living room again. I said, "Hi, Nellie, how's<br />
ctrerything?" "Well," she said, "<strong>Jack</strong> I just want to tellu--she's an<br />
old typical American farmer girl, you know. She talks real drawly<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Battuel1.o 40<br />
like--she said, "I wanted to te1.l you I prayed and prayed and me and<br />
my I.it,tle children prayed and last: night when Mr. Bollard brought me<br />
back home and I went in and my furniture was gone and f said to my<br />
two little children, 'Well maybe Cod has answered our prayers. Let's<br />
go back to our old home and maybe the furniture will be there.' And<br />
you know what, Mr. Battuel1.0, that furnittrrc was there. It was all<br />
set up, even the window shades and everything."<br />
So they let Mrs, Gahagan stay in that house for three, four or five<br />
more years and then one day down in the mines, one <strong>of</strong> the agents for<br />
the Staunton Building and Loan said to me, "~hey're going to evict<br />
her again." And I said, "~ete," 1 said real quick--Pete Grachetto<br />
was his name-1 said, "I heard only last night that .if they ever<br />
touched Nellie Gahagan again, thcy're going to blow that damn house<br />
over into Montgomery County." They never touched her again, She<br />
lived there as long as I can remember, And rhe Building and Loan<br />
never said anything, wasn't too ungrateful, wasn't too unkind or too<br />
harsh.<br />
The sheriff--Mickey Siefert was States Attorney--and when Mrs. Gahagan<br />
wcrit up to get her mother's pension, he and Judge George, Mickey<br />
Siefert, got her into the private chambers and pummeled her for a<br />
half hour trying to get her to admit that <strong>Jack</strong> Ba.ttuello had moved<br />
11<br />
that furniture back in. And as she related it to me, she said, You<br />
know, Mr. <strong>Battuello</strong>, I would have died hcfore 2 would have ever to1.d<br />
them that you did that, but honestly I didn't know; I don't know who<br />
moved my furniture back in," She said, "I prayed, and 1 think that<br />
God did and I think he answered my prayers." By this time, <strong>of</strong> course,<br />
time ha.d elapsed and I got a little humorous, a 1-ittle facetious<br />
about it .tlo say the least and I said, "Wel.1 Nellie, I don' t know about<br />
God, but I imagine that Ei've gallons <strong>of</strong> gasoline and a couple <strong>of</strong><br />
workers did a hell <strong>of</strong> a I.ot about getting that furniture back in there.<br />
And it did at: that.<br />
Q, You mentioned churches as being conservative elemen~s in the<br />
town--any particular church or the churches in general?<br />
A. Churches generally. In the infancy <strong>of</strong> che labar organization in<br />
America, every church without exception in thosc communities, mining<br />
communities, in which I lived and worked; all <strong>of</strong> them were strictly<br />
opposed to unionism--labor unions. Labor unions were anathemato the<br />
churches, to the politicians, and all <strong>of</strong> them conspired to support:<br />
the governments--the coal operators fn one manner or another. The<br />
media was also on rhe side <strong>of</strong> the coal operators in that period.<br />
Some <strong>of</strong> them became a little more enlightened as time passed. Some<br />
churches in particular--some denominations--became a little bit more<br />
liberal. In many communities, the Unitarians were quite a social<br />
force. I've always admired the Jehovah's Witnesses although I'm an<br />
agnostic-I'm an athicst. I've always admired the Jehovah's Witnesses<br />
because <strong>of</strong> their opposition to war and their fight for civil liberties<br />
in dissemination <strong>of</strong> their religious tracts and their right to speak<br />
in assembly.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> 41<br />
Here <strong>of</strong> late in contemporary times, the great number <strong>of</strong> laymen among<br />
all denominations, including thc Catholics, have perceived the light<br />
<strong>of</strong> social progress and do something about it in one way or another.<br />
My father taught me some <strong>of</strong> this and he served as an acolyte in Ttaly--<br />
that's an altar boy. And <strong>of</strong> course Catholicism dominated Italy and<br />
every phase <strong>of</strong> Italian I.ife. When hc landed on the shores <strong>of</strong> America<br />
and noticed that the religious climate was just a little bit different<br />
here than it was in Italy, well, he excommunicated the Pope, Usually<br />
the Pope excommunicates the layman.<br />
Q. I noticed in your tape that you did with Nick, you said that<br />
you'd been excommunicated from towns.<br />
A. I have.<br />
Q. I wondered if that had meant literally the chuch excommunication?<br />
A. No.<br />
Q. You rnran.1: being thrown out <strong>of</strong> town.<br />
A. Politically and socially. Well, you see I represented philosophically<br />
speaking, an extreme, extreme philosophy--extreme ideology.<br />
Don't get me started talking about the present <strong>of</strong> our social order<br />
and our social world. (laughs)<br />
Q. ~et's go back again to the reaction <strong>of</strong> the local population to<br />
your march.<br />
A. Oh, it was magnificent. The women, I tell you the women really<br />
were magnificent in our struggle. They formed the Progressive Miners<br />
Auxiliary; they marched in <strong>Springfield</strong>; they marched on the picket<br />
lines; they were gassed and bayonetted. When we had strikes, they<br />
supported us with food and clothing and moral support. ~hey're great.<br />
Women are great. In a struggle, women are great. Once you get a<br />
woman marching, they're like a Kentucky people or the Tennessee<br />
people. Once they're converted away from snake cultism to unionism<br />
or to some other social crusade, damn, you can't have a better supporter.<br />
And you know women are courageous--they're courageous. Damn,<br />
I've seen them wouldn't back up from the militia being gassed, you<br />
know. Blow it right in their faces and they'd laidin the grass and<br />
bury their heads in that grass and clutch that grass and just lay<br />
there; they wouldn'~ love. They're tough.<br />
Q. Were there any women with you on the march?<br />
A. Oh, yes, A few <strong>of</strong> them sneaked in; they weren't supposed to be<br />
there, you know, because they're thc supp1.y lines, They had to keep<br />
food--we were couriers and transported it.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Batruello<br />
Q. You did? Tell me about that.<br />
A. Anticipating that we were going to have a successful seige, we'd<br />
have to have supply lines to keep us down there and to bring us food<br />
and bring us clothing. We'd get dirty pretty soon, you know, mybe<br />
after a week or two or thrcc and so they had to man the home ground.<br />
But women are magnificent. In every struggle I've ever participated<br />
in, they've been magnificent.<br />
Q. They were organizhg food at home and then they were planning<br />
to send it in to you?<br />
A. Oh yes. We had trucks and cars to come back and get it.<br />
Q. How many <strong>of</strong> you were in your truck?<br />
A. I'd say about forty or fifty. We had a big cattle truck. A<br />
g1ea.t big thing--you know those huge things.<br />
Q. Did it belong to one <strong>of</strong> the guys?<br />
A. Oh, we had volunteers that loaned us cars and bring rucks, and<br />
o'h, my goodness, everybody just poured in. I can't go any further<br />
than I did a while ago. They just--spontaneous--just a spontaneous<br />
uprising, a spontaneous converging <strong>of</strong> everybody's support.<br />
Q. The trucks and cars weren't just owned by miners.<br />
A. We had farmers support us, some--nut too many--but we had farmers<br />
and we had . . .<br />
Q. Marching w-ith you, too?<br />
A. And we had truckers. Oh., yes. They supported us. They furnishd<br />
their own gas. Yes, we had to borrow and steal gas, you know. We<br />
had no money.<br />
Q. Ibw did you do that?<br />
A. Oh, we just--by hook and crook. We'd sometimes take a net and<br />
go over to the Ellinois River and bring three or four ton <strong>of</strong> fish<br />
back and tlhcn have a community fish fry--whole communities, anybody,<br />
just general invitation--"come and eat. I'<br />
Q. Did you sell any fish to buy gas?<br />
A. We never, no. I stole Tillie's gold piece. I have twins you know,<br />
boys, and they were such handsomc little rascals and physically perfect.<br />
We entered them in the State Fair for eight consecutive ycars in conjunction<br />
with the State. Fair <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> Better Babies Conference.<br />
They won that title--The Best Twins in <strong>Illinois</strong> for eight consecutive<br />
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years. And in one <strong>of</strong> the awards she got a two dollar and fifty Cent<br />
gold piece among cups and ribbons--we got all that. But one day<br />
during the strike I found that $2.50 gold piece and I used it to buy<br />
gas and oil to haul that fish from the <strong>Illinois</strong> River to feed the<br />
community. 1 didn't tell her about it and one day she searched frantically<br />
and became hysterical. because she knew where she had put it<br />
and it wasn't there, And I let her believe the kids stole that damn<br />
thing for years. (laughter) I let her believe that those kids pilfered<br />
that damn $2.50 gold piece. Finally one day 1 confessed. But 1 said,<br />
"Tillie, it was for a good cause, don't worry." Bread cast on the<br />
water . . .<br />
Q. Were you afraid-<strong>of</strong> running into violence on your march?<br />
A. Something I never had, fear, when I was younger. I would have<br />
it now, but T didn't then.<br />
Q. The thought never crossed your mind.<br />
A. I've been faced with death about 50,000 times, wall, 50 times at<br />
least. 1 mean imminent death. They looked for me with guns several<br />
times, you know. And in picket lines there was shooting and bayonets.<br />
1 had the audacity in Taylorville, [inaudible] and my wife was in<br />
jail, too, you know, Wc all went to jail, hell, we went to jail.<br />
But when we marched on Tayl.orvil.l.e, they declared marshal law and<br />
not more than three people cou1.d congregate. If they did, they<br />
arrested you and they threw you in the courthouse, They had no place<br />
to p,ut you, so they put: you in the courthouse, They had the jail<br />
filled. But: anyhow, the militia was tear gassing us and had their<br />
bayonets you know; kepc pushing forward and pushing US back. And<br />
there was a young fellow right next to me who was pushing me back and<br />
in all that gas you can't breathe and you can't see--boy ir's an awful<br />
damn mess, it's nauseating--and I said to him, "I wonder what your<br />
father would think if he knew you were doing this to us? Do you know<br />
that we're asking only for bread, nor justice, just bread? You ought<br />
to be ashamed <strong>of</strong> yourself. Why don't you give me rhat damn rifle?"<br />
He gave me that damn rifle and you know he handed me that rifle and<br />
his corporal arrested him and took him out <strong>of</strong> the line. Yep.<br />
Q. But you never thought that you might be met with violence tn<br />
Franklin County or along the way?<br />
A. Well, there was some suspicion that we might be. There was some<br />
suspic5on but our feeling that the march and the numbers and the<br />
causes which we represented would overwhelm--supersede--that threat<br />
<strong>of</strong> violence. We somehow were naive to the point that we believed<br />
maybe the balance <strong>of</strong> power would flow to our side because <strong>of</strong> our cause.<br />
Tt di.dnl.t happen--it didn't happen.<br />
Q. Did you stop along the way?<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Bartuello 4 4<br />
A. For emergency purpose cars would pull out <strong>of</strong> line and drop into<br />
the woods and then catch us again. Yes, but that's all.<br />
Q. Did you ta.ke gas with you?<br />
A. No. Hell no. We had no money.<br />
Q. You mean one tank got you there?<br />
A. Well, if we did run out 01 gas we could manage. Somebody maybe<br />
had a couple <strong>of</strong> nickel there; they could manage to get maybe a gallon<br />
or two or whatever was necessary. There was no fear that if we run<br />
out <strong>of</strong> gas and abandoned our cars. Wc'd salvage them somehow; we'd<br />
go back and get them. We were just so serene in thc whole process.<br />
You never thought about 1 itt1.e eventualities--1itt'l e emergencies.<br />
We'd overcome them. Like the Ncgroes who have a want to say in the<br />
civil rights movement, " ~ will e overcome." And you do, you do.<br />
4. Did you have to stop at all along the way--your truck?<br />
A. No. Well, at Swansea wc did; that's the only time.<br />
Q. I was wondering how, for instance, a gas station operator would<br />
have treated you.<br />
A. Wel+l, he'd have so1.d us thc gas if we 'd have had the money, Well.,<br />
there would have been enough for emergency rationing a little bit,<br />
You know, everyone was so willing to dlvkde--if he had a dollar he'd<br />
give you fifty cen.ts. That was the thing. There was, 1 would say<br />
out <strong>of</strong> that 45 mile march, that chere was pr6babl.y 5,000 people didn't<br />
have a nickel in their pocket--dida't have a nickel. in their pocket.<br />
I was one; didn't have a damn nickel in my pocket--not a ntckel. I'm<br />
saying a nickel.<br />
Q, Where did the authorities stop you? Was that at Swaasea?<br />
A. Swansea was the First time.<br />
4. Where was the second timc?<br />
A. At the guns--at: the ambush. That's where we were stopped the<br />
second time. We run right into that ambush,<br />
Q. Where werc you In the l.ine <strong>of</strong> march at that time?<br />
A. Third car.<br />
Q. Who was the first? Can you remeniber?<br />
A. No, I don't. No, I don't.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Battuel.Lo<br />
Q. What was it like?<br />
A. Pandemonium when they shot into us. Pandemonium.<br />
Q. You hadn't expected it?<br />
A. Not that, no. No. We had an idea that when we got there that<br />
they were going to surround us with authorities to keep us intact and<br />
not let us get to thc mines. We figured that out. That we figured.<br />
We also felt that down in Franklin County there would be some kind<br />
<strong>of</strong> an injunction issued that would restrain. our activities. We figured<br />
that out. hat's what we figured, but never that ambush; we never<br />
figured that out. Never dreamed they'd do that to us.<br />
Q. So you were riding In the bac-k o f the truck.<br />
A. Yes, on the body.<br />
Q. This was an open truck.<br />
A. Yes.<br />
Q. And how were you first aware <strong>of</strong> the ambush?<br />
A. The shots.<br />
Q. Just pl.owing in?<br />
A. Shooting so they cou1.d hit the cars.<br />
END OF TAPE THREE<br />
A. The first fusillade <strong>of</strong> shots disabled the first: car. They shot<br />
into the tires and second one. And then it seemed to me, 1ooki.ng<br />
back and remembering in retrospect that the next fusillades <strong>of</strong> shots--<br />
they shot over our heads. Then sporadic bullets began to hit the<br />
cars. Now I deduced from that tha.t they 'had orders to shoot at he<br />
wheels and deflate the tires and then shoot overhead to intimidate<br />
us and then I figured then that certain ones <strong>of</strong> them decided, "The<br />
hell with them, shoot right into them." And then those are the ones<br />
that hit us, hit our people. Those are the shots that hit our people.<br />
For ,the most part, though, the shots were either low or overhead.<br />
Q. You had no warning. No one and . . .<br />
A. No, no, just all <strong>of</strong> a sudden without any warning. We never,<br />
never figured that that was going to come to be ambushed. We'd<br />
didn't think wc was going to be ambushed. That was never even given<br />
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any consideration. We thought we'd be harassed after we'd ge.t dawn<br />
in there with the authorities or probably circumscribe or an injunction<br />
which would calm them down. Then that ended it all.<br />
Q. No one sropped to say, "Fe'l.lows you can't come here?"<br />
A. Oh, no, no, no. The authortties after they searched us, this one<br />
said, "All right, you may proceed. I' We did.<br />
Q. So it was a complete surprise to you?<br />
A. Positively, cnmpl.ete1.y. Out <strong>of</strong> x clear sky.<br />
Q. Codd you see the men shooting or were they hidden?<br />
A. In the woods.<br />
Q. They were hidden?<br />
A. ~hese's a clump <strong>of</strong> woods like something like that: down there and<br />
they were in those woods. No, we couldn't see anybody. Well, we<br />
didn't take time to look, either. We didn't takc time, After that<br />
first fusillade that first car . . . well, I think thc first fusillade<br />
hit: one <strong>of</strong> our bays. Bullet: from a big rifle -33 went right through<br />
his . . . . HE dying today, too, incidentally. Whethet he's living<br />
roday, this morning or not. He's got cancer, Lefty Williams. He's<br />
from St, Louis. I got a call last night, he was the first one hit.<br />
Big bullet went right ~hrough his jaw. With that we left pell-mell<br />
through the fields. I outrun that kid . . .<br />
Q. How'd you get out <strong>of</strong> the truck,<br />
A. Just jumped out, Honey. I flew our <strong>of</strong> he damn thing.<br />
Q, All forty <strong>of</strong> you at the same time?<br />
A. Yes, all on top <strong>of</strong> each other.<br />
Q. Were chey firi.ng from both sides?<br />
A. No. One side,<br />
Q. Which side?<br />
A. Well, we were going south, would be on the right side, so it'd<br />
be west, wouldn't it? West side <strong>of</strong> the road, I gucss. Anyhow the<br />
shots werc coming from the woods on the right side <strong>of</strong> us, it'd be<br />
west. And af~er the Ei.rst warning we had, the only warning we had.<br />
And women got reports, see erroneous report that thcre were fifteen,<br />
twenty killed you know, and, oh, there was consternation back here<br />
something horrible. Women just fit to be .tied, you know, frantic.<br />
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And T suppose, you know how rumors will grow. From twenty it grew<br />
to fifty and pretty soon everybody was annihilated. I didn't get<br />
home for three or four days. We were the Last ones home.<br />
Q. I'm trying to picture this. These thousands <strong>of</strong> people suddenly<br />
being attacked by gun fire and then you're running away from the fire.<br />
Was ir jusr a sea <strong>of</strong> people running? Were you running into the woods.<br />
A. That's the proper word, that's the proper description. Just a<br />
sea <strong>of</strong> people just runni.ng frantically.<br />
Q. Did you find cover?<br />
A. Well, we r,un i.n the opposite dirccrioa, <strong>of</strong> course, down to another<br />
section <strong>of</strong> woods.<br />
Q. You had to run across . . .<br />
A. Fields.<br />
Q. Open fields?<br />
A. Yes. And the bullets whining over head all the while. There's<br />
no doubt that they could have done more damage and killed more people<br />
and wounded more people if they had actually shot right at us. But<br />
like 1 say it seemed from the pattern that I figured out that they<br />
intended to scare us and demolish our caravan and then only a few<br />
must have shot right into the mass <strong>of</strong> .the people.<br />
Q. Row fast did you run?<br />
A, Well, they say the record was 9.1 or 9.2 I think I exceeded tha-tl.<br />
For a hundred yards anyhow.<br />
Q. Where did you finally stop, then.<br />
A. Well, hours later we didn't come back to the original front <strong>of</strong><br />
the caravan but we circled around, and <strong>of</strong> course, that thing is like<br />
I say is forty miles long, you know, and we finally came back in to<br />
about the middle <strong>of</strong> the caravan some place and all cars were demolished<br />
and then, <strong>of</strong> course, we saw there was no more firing,no more gun men<br />
around, so we walked a little ways up towards the. front--not all the<br />
way. All those cars were pushed .in thc ditch, turned over, and food<br />
strung a11 over the place, and blankets, and pots, and pans, combs<br />
and you name it. Everything was just . . .<br />
Q. About what time was the ambush?<br />
A. When we finally walked in to Du Quoin that night?<br />
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Q, Now, what time was the ambush itsclf? About what time <strong>of</strong> day was<br />
it when they fired on you?<br />
A. \hat have you got in rherc?<br />
Q, Well, you know just . . .<br />
A, Well., I would say that it was sometime around noon, a little after<br />
noon, Mid-day I'd say.<br />
Q, So then what: time did you . . .<br />
A. Maybe a little later.<br />
Q. Was it when you got back?<br />
A. Bur by the time I made my way into DuQuoin--that's on foot though,<br />
<strong>of</strong> course--that was night. It was dark. It was eight or oh, nine<br />
o'clock, I guess. But a11 <strong>of</strong> this was on foot. We all walked in<br />
there and there was another mess there. Here was all these people,<br />
no cars, no transportation, no place to sleep--just on the ground.<br />
All strewn all over town and police, everybody, you know the police<br />
had everybody corralled pretry much didn't let you go anyplace. They<br />
herded you l ike cattle.<br />
Q. Any <strong>of</strong>fers <strong>of</strong> help?<br />
A. Not as far as I know. Not as far as I know. At least I didn't<br />
hear any.<br />
Q. Were they just firing on the first part <strong>of</strong> the caravan?<br />
A. No, as far as they could reach with the rtflss.<br />
Q. Well, you said the caravan was about forty miles long. So what<br />
happened to the back <strong>of</strong> the caravan?<br />
A. After that, then they came out <strong>of</strong> rhe woods after they got us<br />
a11 out <strong>of</strong> the cars running then they just demolished as many cars,<br />
oh God, hundreds <strong>of</strong> them. Then just sent down. the line with ball<br />
bats, pushing cars over, turning them over.<br />
(2. They went the whole thirty miles? As far as you know?<br />
A. No, I don't think they went the whole line, no. They went about<br />
ha.lf-way T guess. About half-way out, I suppose, But that was a<br />
mess. 1 don't think they got that thing cleaned up for a week.<br />
Q. Was here more than one ambush?<br />
A. No. That's it, Tha.t's the. only one, That was enough. That was<br />
enough.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> BattueLlo 4 9<br />
Q. Did you get anything to eat that night in DuQuoin? Anything to<br />
drink?<br />
A. Well, we had water. I can't tcll you about what everybody did.<br />
We just at that point in time wc were just $cuffling for ourselves,<br />
you know, a place to slcep or drink <strong>of</strong> water or somebody in the tail<br />
end <strong>of</strong> the march they could turn their cars around, see, in the tail<br />
end <strong>of</strong> the march and they salvaged their cars and their food. Well,<br />
there was a little contingent <strong>of</strong> that part <strong>of</strong> the caravan that had a<br />
little food and s~n'Ie--I didn't get no food--but some <strong>of</strong> them did.<br />
Q. Did they come into DuQuoin with you?<br />
A. Yes, yes, they all stayed there that first night. Al.1 stayed<br />
there.<br />
Q. Did you pick up food and stuff as you passed the ambushed caravan<br />
on your way in to UuQuoin?<br />
A. No, wc Figured they're still around and we didn't want to, you<br />
know, tarry. We didn't know where they were at actually.<br />
Q. Were there a bunch <strong>of</strong> you that stuck together? Can you remember?<br />
A. At that point in time as John Dean is one to say in his testimony,<br />
the (airp1an.e passes overhead) thing became total disarray, total<br />
disorganized and a state <strong>of</strong> ,~otal confusion. There was just no<br />
heroics that could be performed and to pull that line together again<br />
in the matter <strong>of</strong> the time that we had, just couldn't be. Everybody<br />
was just scuffling for themselves. We were friends and talking to<br />
each other and consoling each other but the big question was, "What<br />
do we do now? How are we going to do it to get our lines organized<br />
again? "<br />
Q. The truck you've bccn riding in, you camped again?<br />
A. As far as I knew it stayed up there for a week.<br />
Q. Did you see it?<br />
A. No.<br />
Q. You didn't see it a.fter you'd left it.<br />
A. No, no. It mtght have been there for a week, I don't know how<br />
in the hell it ever got back. That big portion <strong>of</strong> that front line<br />
stayed there for a few days, you know. The ones that could turn<br />
around that weren't hit weren't involved in the first fusSllade.<br />
They got their cars turned around and back to DuQuain. Quite a few<br />
<strong>of</strong> them. But then there was pandemonium in DuQuoin, Jesus, you<br />
ought to have seen that mess.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
Q. Whereabouts DuQuoin did you go?<br />
A. Just any place tha.t you could sleep.<br />
Q. Park?<br />
A. Or front yards, alleys, any place. That's where we stayed all<br />
night, And most <strong>of</strong> us didn't have any food. Those that salvaged<br />
their car, they had food. They went back, they were the first ones<br />
to go back, they were the first ones to return to the [inaudible],<br />
Q. How long were you in DuQuoin?<br />
A. I was there about two days. Two days, maybe three. 1 was still<br />
insisting on trying to get some organization out <strong>of</strong> that thing. But<br />
it's beyond our control, my control, anybody's control. There was<br />
just too much consternation, confusion, pandemonium. And there's<br />
some degree <strong>of</strong> fear because the authorities were hostile. The state<br />
police were terrible.<br />
Q. In what way?<br />
A. Oh, they wouldn't give you the time <strong>of</strong> the day, they were sarcastic,<br />
they cut you. Aurhoritarian in its highest decimal.<br />
Q. Do they bother you personally?<br />
A. They just kept you moving, that's all. 1£ you were in the wrong<br />
place or they thought you were in the wrong place they just moved you<br />
and clubs were nut, you know.<br />
Q. Were you clubbed?<br />
A. No, Nobody was clubbed as I know <strong>of</strong>. They were roughed up a<br />
little bit in DuQuoin but not too bad, not too bad. They were pushed<br />
around and cussed (airplane goes overhead) and maybe, you know slapped<br />
with a club too bad.<br />
Q. If you were there for two days, did you ever eat?<br />
A. Oh, yes. I had some friends down there and I finally sneaked<br />
around and got to their house. They don't live exactly in DuQuoin<br />
but just down the road, oh, about four or five miles from there.<br />
Yes, 1 went to their home and I fed up the next day a little bit.<br />
Q. Good. How about the rest <strong>of</strong> the guys?<br />
A. Oh, mast <strong>of</strong> them started and went right on home. All that had<br />
their cars, they could get thei-r cars turned around and come back.<br />
They all came home.<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
Q. So about how many <strong>of</strong> you stayed in DuQuoin?<br />
A. Oh, I'd say, as far as I know about ten or fifteen <strong>of</strong> the mare<br />
active leaders <strong>of</strong> the thing. But there was no hope to reorganizing<br />
the thing. 1t'd been broken up and successfully so,<br />
4, How did the other leaders survive?<br />
A. About the same way T did.<br />
Q. Friends?<br />
A, Some came back, some came back and some stayed down there but<br />
most <strong>of</strong> them had friends down there.<br />
Q. Were they miners?<br />
A. Yes.<br />
Q. Progressive?<br />
A. Yes. They paid the penalty too, you know. They lost their jobs.<br />
They were fi.red and 1.os.t their jobs and blacklisted.<br />
Q. Did you get any show <strong>of</strong> sympathy from the United Mine Workers<br />
since you really were brothers?<br />
A. Never got a chance to demonstrate it too much. We never got into<br />
the County, (clanging noisc)<br />
Q. They didn't come forward to help a.t all, after this?<br />
A. I still believe if we'd got into the county we would have pulled<br />
the county out for us, I'm sure. I feel sure about that. Now, I<br />
mi.gh.t be wrong but if we could have got into the county and talked<br />
with that show <strong>of</strong> power, demonstration, persuasion, if nothing else<br />
but numbers and we had a good cause and we could orate it damn elegantly<br />
too. No doubt in my mind we'd have struck every damn mine in that<br />
county, in southern part <strong>of</strong> the state. No doubt. But you see they<br />
used that force and it was surreptitious and secret, and it was instantaneous,<br />
and 5t broke us up, destroyed us. You can imagine being<br />
shot at with high powered rifles, you know, and there you are helpless<br />
and stranded in the middle <strong>of</strong> eighteen feet <strong>of</strong> concern and na<br />
place to go except run. And people are just not, even today and all<br />
<strong>of</strong> this cruelties are just not suhjecr to be .shot at, you know, in<br />
this matter. And so fear takes over. Preservation <strong>of</strong> life, the<br />
instinct to live, you know makes you run. Bur we couldn't, there was<br />
no hope <strong>of</strong> organizing that thing anymore. It just got beyond our<br />
control. It was just too big. It was catastrophic. But we did<br />
came back, the more activists and this was withnut the consent <strong>of</strong><br />
the district organization <strong>of</strong> the international union so called. Wr<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> BattueUo<br />
formed a rnil.i.tary rifle briga.de and we went to Coulterville and we<br />
encamped and wc dared those son-<strong>of</strong>-birches to come and get us. We<br />
dared them to come and get us.<br />
Q. Bow many <strong>of</strong> you were there in on that?<br />
A. Oh, in that camp wc had probably two hundred. Two hundred to two<br />
hundred and fifty, had a good battalion there. And we alternared,<br />
two hundred and ftfty on one shift and two fifty and two fifty, three<br />
shifts there. I tell you . . .<br />
Q. People coming in and going out all the time?<br />
A. Yes, and you didn't dare come in that there thing without a password<br />
or you'd have got it. (laughs)<br />
Q. What was the password?<br />
A. Why, L don't remember but we used a password. (laughter) We<br />
held that thing for a week and dared them son-<strong>of</strong>-bitches if I use<br />
that term.<br />
Q. whereabouts in Coultervill-e was it?<br />
A. Out in the woods about a mile out <strong>of</strong> town.<br />
Q, Did you tent?<br />
A. No, madam, Well, you could call them ten%, There was a couple<br />
<strong>of</strong> them that had some pup tents, you know. Most <strong>of</strong> us would sleep<br />
on the ground. If irs rained it rained, that's all. We were rained<br />
on. We had good ammunition and we had <strong>Springfield</strong> rifles, 30-30.<br />
We had men that wouldn't run. They never bothered us. Now if we<br />
could have . . . I don't know just was looking backwards a little bit<br />
but I think if thc leaders would have consulted with us about that<br />
moment or wc had <strong>of</strong> consulted with the leaders, we lost contact down<br />
there.<br />
Q. Which leaders?<br />
A. I'm talking about the <strong>of</strong>ficers. Cloud Percy and them.<br />
Q, Of the Progressives?<br />
A. Of the Progressives. If at that moment while we were holdjng the<br />
fort in Coulterville which was our doings <strong>of</strong> the radicals, ours alone.<br />
See, we didn't consult with the executive <strong>of</strong>ficers or anybody, We<br />
got rifles and we had to steal them, we got them, we went down there,<br />
we organized our group quietly see, once we get down there we start<br />
making noises, The whole state <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> knew we were camped down<br />
there with guns, And we dared the damn state police to come in and<br />
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get us. They never came. Nobody came. We'd have killed them. Pf<br />
they'd have tried we'd have killed them. (background <strong>of</strong> birds chirping)<br />
And I don't think we could have seen a search warrant that far away<br />
and we had our outpost established out quite a b i ~ , you know.<br />
They just wasn't going to get in there that's all. But if we could<br />
have got ahold <strong>of</strong> the <strong>of</strong>ficers at that moment maybe they could have<br />
used that as a wedge. Bring your forces down there first which we'd<br />
been amp1.y and well protected don't you see. And then knowing about<br />
the ambush that had happened we would have arranged some kind <strong>of</strong> plan<br />
for this army contingent to protect our: forces entering this town.<br />
That's looking backwards a 1ittl.e bit and when Ithink that could have<br />
been done. And we would have got in there by force if necessary,<br />
And it would have been one hell <strong>of</strong> a battle.<br />
Q. Why did you pick Coulterville?<br />
A. We picked any damned place we could go. The man that owned the<br />
land that's all we consulted.<br />
Q. Was he a farmer?<br />
A. Yes,<br />
Q. On your side?<br />
A, Friendly.<br />
Q. And how long were you encamped?<br />
A. About a week.<br />
Q. About a week. Looking back, did i,t accomplish anything?<br />
A. The fail.urc can be attributed to what 1 just described. I'd say<br />
to contact the <strong>of</strong>ficers at: that time and promote these plans to further<br />
another march. The failure rest in this area,<br />
Q. Did you try to contact Percy?<br />
A. We were encamped down there and wouldn'r move out <strong>of</strong> chere,<br />
Wouldn't move. Wouldn'~ move.<br />
Q. Did he try to con.tact you?<br />
A. No. You see there's a facet <strong>of</strong> this organization <strong>of</strong> Progressive<br />
Miners that rcmains enigmatic even to the insider. Why, they didn't<br />
show on the surface there at the beginning <strong>of</strong> the struggle there was<br />
always a difference between the <strong>of</strong>ficers that were elected, that were<br />
conservative, some cases reactionary. But at the moment <strong>of</strong> organization<br />
we didn't think about rhose things, didn't want to think about<br />
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them because. that was another form <strong>of</strong> alienation, estrangement and<br />
we didn't want that to happen. So we accepted their nominees, we<br />
didn't run against them, we didn't put any candidates against them.<br />
So there was a cleavage there ideologically always right from vhe<br />
beginning. Dormant perhaps but it was there. Top echelon was conservative.<br />
The next line 0% defense was the radicals. The leftwimgcrs<br />
we called them. And that difference remained all. through<br />
that struggle. And so whenever wc got into a situation <strong>of</strong> that kind<br />
tJe knew, nobody else knew anything about his or didn't think about<br />
i.t, but we knew the radicals, the articu1,ate radicals. T don't want<br />
to say intelleceuals but the articulate, we knew that when we got<br />
faced with an emergency or some kind <strong>of</strong> a plan to counteract John<br />
Lewis' maneuvers it requi.red sometimes a little harshness, you know,<br />
or a little rough stuff, maybe, in ddending ourselves that they<br />
would not go with us. They would say, "No .I1<br />
Now if we persisted in pursuing this counseling between our farces<br />
we knew that they would back <strong>of</strong>f, not only back <strong>of</strong>f from it but they<br />
would become critical and that would widen the gap between us. All<br />
for a schism, a difference there, a variance that would grow into<br />
hostility. Which did eventually just: the same. Although we didn't<br />
push the thing it finally came that way so we were reluctant sometimes<br />
to consult with these conservatives about drastic moves or drastic<br />
revolutionary maneuvers. We wanted to be bold in some <strong>of</strong> these things<br />
and always wanted to defend ourselves if need be with arms. If need<br />
be. But that was unthinkable in their language, their ideology, their<br />
approach to the thing.<br />
And so OUT failure to contact them spontaneously as we would if it<br />
was friendly didn't happen because we were fearful <strong>of</strong> widenhg that<br />
gap <strong>of</strong> difference, alienating them and becoming our chief critics.<br />
And latcr they became our head hunters. They expelled all nf us<br />
radicals. They got Gerry Allard, you know, was the editor, out.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> Batorus, executive warden, Dave Reed, out. They picked every<br />
radical out. They picked them out, sent them down the road. And as<br />
a result, Progressive Miners ceased to be, that's all. It quit ar;<br />
that mommt. It died.<br />
So in a sitdown strike, for instance, which followed 1937 all the<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers were against it. In the DuQuoin case, I've described that.<br />
When I. ini,tiated the DuQuoin case, they charged me with every crime<br />
under the sun. I was collaborating with the United Mine Workers for<br />
the expressed purpose <strong>of</strong> destroying the Progressive Miners <strong>of</strong> America.<br />
And I said, "Suppose that I succeed? I and my fellow workers succeed<br />
in getting these boys out <strong>of</strong> prison. Then what would you say?" They<br />
had no answer. When they were finally conditioned they pardoned [me]<br />
on Christmas Eve, I looked in their faces and their eyes and I still<br />
was asking the question, "Bow what do you expect? You've railroaded<br />
me out <strong>of</strong> my <strong>of</strong>fice, you've reduced the Progressive Miners ro an<br />
organization <strong>of</strong> compromise that stinks, you've scabbed aga.inst the<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> Battuell-o 5 5<br />
United Mine Workers during their strike, which stinks, that's not<br />
only compromise that ' s col,l.abnration with a vengeance, We 've got<br />
the DuQuoin boys out, we've emulated some <strong>of</strong> the working conditions<br />
in or through our organization <strong>of</strong> unity during this interim, what do<br />
you say now?" I kept asking them with my eyes and I. wanted to know.<br />
I never got an answer from them. Never an apology at that poiat.<br />
Not a apology. And later 1 got rit from the rank and file but not<br />
from them.<br />
Q. Now is Percy still in?<br />
A. Percy's dead, now.<br />
Q. The president could only be in two years and then he could be in<br />
another <strong>of</strong>fice for two years.<br />
A. Yes. Be couldn't succeed himself, And 1 wrote the fifst constitution,<br />
I was a member <strong>of</strong> the constitutional committee addressing the<br />
first constitution.<br />
Q. But Percy was the president at the time <strong>of</strong> the DuQuoin case?<br />
A. Yes. And Kep wa.s later. See they alternated. Kep was president<br />
and then Percy was president, Kep was secretary, Kep was president,<br />
Percy was international secretary, you know, and then when they run<br />
out <strong>of</strong> state <strong>of</strong>fices then they became international. They created<br />
an international paper organization, we didn't have ten cents worth<br />
<strong>of</strong> dues coming in. They c.reated an--and then Joe Ozanic became the<br />
international president and didn't have om dues payment. N0.t once.<br />
And then the conventions.<br />
Q. That's when you wrote thc constitution, that's what you thought<br />
you'd guarded against, wasn't it? So they fell into the same trap<br />
as the United's did,<br />
A. And part <strong>of</strong> it is my fault, too. Because when the Progressive<br />
Miners were formed I was pretty active in number one. As a matter<br />
<strong>of</strong> fact number one was the Progressive Miners for all practical purposes.<br />
Number one I.ocal was the Progressive Miners.<br />
Q. This is scholastic?<br />
A. Yes. And I served as prcsidcnt for two terms, They elected me<br />
to the convention, every year. And Progressive Miners without local<br />
number one would not: have been. When they run out <strong>of</strong> the state<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers they created an international union and they ran for international<br />
president and international secretary. That was the biggest<br />
Caddamn joke that was ever formed on the poor coal miners. And, <strong>of</strong><br />
course, I'm up there in a vanguard always critical about how you<br />
justify how do you explain, how do you defcnd the establishment <strong>of</strong><br />
an international union when we're confined to three little counties<br />
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wi.th two thousand, three .thousand membcrs? This is not only asininity,<br />
it is insane. Well, they didn't understand that, che <strong>of</strong>fricers,<br />
Communist, see. Always making trouble, Communist.<br />
But that's the story <strong>of</strong> my life. What rhe hell are you going to do.<br />
That's the story <strong>of</strong> my life to tell you about this Goddamn government<br />
<strong>of</strong> ours, our social system, our wealth. Things I think are insane,<br />
people take for granted, thhk that's just common place. What's going<br />
on in this place? And it's going to be that way, I suppose, until<br />
the end,<br />
Q. Did you see anyone injured in town during the ambush?<br />
A. Lester Brady .<br />
Q. Where was he? Where were you in relacion to him?<br />
A. He was ahead <strong>of</strong> me.<br />
Q. In the truck?<br />
A. No, he was ahead <strong>of</strong> me. Two cars ahead. First or second car.<br />
Be was in the first, leading.<br />
Q. Did you see him get hit?<br />
A. I didn't see him get hit. I know he was hit.<br />
Q. Did you see anyone else get hit?<br />
A. No. No, ma'am. After that or a fcw minutes after that I was on<br />
my ponies running like hell.<br />
Q. How many were injured? Have you any idea?<br />
A. No, f don't. No, T never did tabulate that and never did figure<br />
it out. There's quite a few that stayed down there for a week, Got<br />
in there and they got hemmed in by the county authorities. They were<br />
heaten up pretty goad.<br />
Q. Where?<br />
A. After the march.<br />
Q. In DuQuain, you mean?<br />
A, Yes. They scattered around little villages, you know, and they<br />
were hunted down. They were hun'ted down. Oh, yes. They hunted us<br />
like prey. I was hemmed in at Frank Loetta three weeks and couldn't<br />
get in and couldn't get out. Got in a.nd couldn't get out, Slept in<br />
cemeteries. Cemeteries at night.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> Battuellu<br />
Q . Which cemeteries?<br />
A. There at Zeigler. At Zeigler, One day we took over, three <strong>of</strong> us<br />
hemmed in there, me, Pat Asbray and Joc Prell. We were hemmed in<br />
there for three days and couldn't get out and not only slept in<br />
cemeteries but we took a person's home over, There was nobody home<br />
and they wcsc getting pretty close to us, catching up with US and<br />
all we had was two little pistols, damn lit~lc old pistols I think<br />
-32 they were and they had rifles, <strong>of</strong> course, high powered rifles and<br />
machine guns and they were looking for us and they caught up pretty<br />
close to us and we took over a house. Them was nobody homr. We<br />
knocked on the door and this was not too far from the Zeigler cemetery<br />
and there was nobody home so we went in.<br />
Now, this house is built on a hill side and the bottom part is basement,<br />
you know, and we could see to the south and we manned that as<br />
a fort w i ~ h our two 1ittl.e pistols and we had prccty good protection,<br />
the concrete wall. But nobody would attack us then. But this lady<br />
came home and found us in the house, there was three <strong>of</strong> us and we had<br />
taken possession <strong>of</strong> the house. She walked in. She was big red-headed,<br />
plump, overly plumply, and she was friendly. And she wanted to know,<br />
"What you doing here?" And wc said, "Wel.l, we gor to tell you. Wc're<br />
Progressive miners and they're hunting for us. And they've just about<br />
caught up with us here and we run inro your house." "Ah," she said,<br />
"that 's all right, I'm a Progressive Miner too. It I s okay .'I SO we<br />
stayed there. WE stayed there that day and that night and then during<br />
the next night we got out under cover <strong>of</strong> darkness. We moved again.<br />
Q. When was this, now?<br />
A. That was after the march that happened.<br />
Q. What were you doing in Zciglcr?<br />
A. Trying to get the miners to come out. Ray Edmund caught us in<br />
DuQuoin one night. Caught us with his thugs. Incidentally, Ray<br />
Ednunds and I became good friends out <strong>of</strong> this srruggle and he killed<br />
two, three, men, you know in this, in the Progressive Miners.<br />
Q. He killed Progressives?<br />
A. The latest one was Ed Ma.bic right on the Square in <strong>Springfield</strong>.<br />
Right on the square in <strong>Springfield</strong>. Right <strong>of</strong>f the square we had a<br />
hall light on the corner <strong>of</strong> North . . .<br />
Q. Fourth and Manroe? No, no, that was . .<br />
A. Northeast corner. Northeast corner,<br />
Q. Where was that again?<br />
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A. We had a hall . . .<br />
Q. The hall,<br />
A. Yes. Right on the northeast corner. That's northeast, yes.<br />
Northeast corner, Right on the corner and , . .<br />
Q. Of whi.ch streets was that?<br />
A. Well., 1 don't: know what street that is. That ought to be about,<br />
is that Sixth or what there? What is that? 1 don't remember. 1<br />
don't remember. Fifth or Sixth Street there. No. Well, it was<br />
Easter Day, I believe it was. Easter or Declaration Day?<br />
Q. Easter Sunday, I believe.<br />
A, I believc it was Easter. Anyhow Ray Edmunds is a bold son-<strong>of</strong>-abitch,<br />
you know. Whooo. Hc'd shoot you roo. He drove around there<br />
and miners just come out <strong>of</strong> the hall and loaded the street with thcm.<br />
Be couldn't get through with his car and they recognized him. Ed Mabie,<br />
I suppose, tsicd to open the door to get at him and he shot and killcd<br />
Ed Mabie right there. And then jumped out <strong>of</strong> his car and run up around<br />
the square disappeared and later was seen. Made bail from Taylorville.<br />
Oh, yes, Ray Edmunds killed two, three and, T wouldn't say we became<br />
good friends. I went to work later on as an organizer for CXO and<br />
AF <strong>of</strong> 2 District 50 all <strong>of</strong> three <strong>of</strong> thcm I organized for.<br />
Q. District 50?<br />
A. Yes, 1 wen.t and he was my boss when I was wirh District 50 in<br />
Chicago, You know, I never was treated any better. That's the damn<br />
truth and he one Lime had looked for me. I laid in ambush all night<br />
one night to kill him.<br />
Q. (laughs) Where did you do tha.t?<br />
A. I heard from a pretty good fel1.0~ that he was coming through on<br />
Route 4 going down south. He was corning from Gillespie. We laid<br />
there all night waittng for him. He caught me, Me and two other<br />
fel,l~ws in DuQuoin. I was going to make that miner's meeting that<br />
night and he caught us.<br />
Q. Now, which night was this?<br />
A. Oh, I don't know,<br />
Q, Oh, okay. Sorry.<br />
A. But we were in the cafeteria getting something to eat at Greek<br />
cafeteria, They had Zoods, short order and then some cars circling<br />
around, circulating around that building and I noticed that Goddamn<br />
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car go by wi.th three or four fellows in it two or three times. 'I, got<br />
curious and I went to the window waiting for it and sure as hell it<br />
was Ray Edmunds. Now it gets to be mtdnight and we haven't got our<br />
guns. Our guns are in a Goddamn car down the street down by the hall.<br />
We hadn't gotten to thc union meeting because they kept us from getting<br />
out, and we don'^ know llow to get out <strong>of</strong> there. So I asked that Creek<br />
if he'd let us stay upstairs--he had some room upstairs, not rented,<br />
just his own--"No. " "Would you loan us your: gun?" "No, I' He wouldn't<br />
loan us a gun. He said, "I'm going to close up at 12: 30." "well,<br />
if we walk out there we'rc dead. Be's going to kill us. here's no<br />
doabt about it. He's going to shoot us down like rats." So Pat Anbury<br />
said, "What are you going to do?" And 1 said, "Well, what the hell<br />
can we do?" He said, "Well, you better think about it, we got: to<br />
move out <strong>of</strong> here pretty soon."<br />
So S called the police and 1 told them who I was and where wc were<br />
at and we were being intimidated by thc United Mine Workers, didn't<br />
say kill, and we wanted protection down to our cars and out <strong>of</strong> town.<br />
The police came down and he said, "You walk on the sidewalks and I'll<br />
drive along the street with you." And we got in our cars (laughs)<br />
and stayed there just long enough and we didn't have any ideas where<br />
these other guys were at, now. They saw the policeman. And we got<br />
in that car and got to Pinckneyvillc.<br />
Now Joe Perell--I've got to describe him. He worked with the Teamsters,<br />
he's vice-president down there, he just retired. Worked for them for<br />
thirty years. And we p0.t to Pinckneyvillc and 1 said, "Why dan't we<br />
stop here and get a blow <strong>of</strong> fresh air." And so he stopped the car.<br />
Pat's in the back end and 1'm up front with Joe and Joe was driving.<br />
We stopped there and we crossed our leg and drew a great deep breath<br />
and Joe reac-hed over gingerly and pulled his pistol out with two<br />
fingers and raised it up cautiously and very carefulSy and he said,<br />
"Imagine what we've been in. " He said, "How do you shoot this damn<br />
thing?" (laughter) I said, "What a Goddamn army I had tonight. A<br />
son-<strong>of</strong>-a-bitch that can't shoot a pistol! He's got a and don't<br />
know how to shoot it ." (laughter)<br />
4. Kay Edmunds was Uni,ted Mine Workers?<br />
A. President, District President.<br />
Q. President. Of District 12?<br />
A. An international disrrict.<br />
Q. That's the whole state, right?<br />
A. An international board member.<br />
Q. Well, he made a habit <strong>of</strong> hunting for you guys?<br />
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A. Oh, yes. There's something other to be said about Ray, But he<br />
treated me fine after I organized for Dan Toband, truck driver in the<br />
Teamster Union, Louisville, Kentucky and Tennessee and Georgia and<br />
Fl.orida and then later I wenr LO work for District 50, he was my boss.<br />
And I was never treated better in my life. Ray Edmunds treated me<br />
like a gentleman. He called me Indian for some reason, I don't know<br />
why, but he called me Indian.<br />
1 recollect that 1 was organized with the Teamsters and damn our pay<br />
was miserable, We were getting sixty dollars a week, When I'd take<br />
my pay check home it would be more like fifteen dollars a week, twenty<br />
for your wife to livc on. And so I wasn't dohg very damn good and<br />
I was getting, now, forty years old and 1 was becoming a little fearful.<br />
a'bout security at my age. My family, I'd neglected them all <strong>of</strong> my<br />
life. I'd been on the road all the time, you know. I never was home.<br />
Tt's a wonder Tilly didn't run <strong>of</strong>f with four or five men. Hell, she<br />
should have. I wouldn't have blamed her. But anyhow, I decided by<br />
God 1 can't make any money here. I can't really gain any equity.<br />
So I thought I'd come back to 11linoi.s. And I came back to <strong>Illinois</strong><br />
and Goddamn i.f Ray Edmunds said, "Don't meet me at the Stsaford, not<br />
Straford, what is that, not St. Nick the one on the corner?<br />
Q. Leland?<br />
A. Went out <strong>of</strong> business.<br />
Q. Leland?<br />
A. Leland. Leland. I went. i.n there, I knew the manager <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Leland, I'd stayed there when I was on the joint state board. And<br />
we'd become acquainted, pretty good friends. I was going to Chicago,<br />
from Louisville to Chicago I stopped here. And Goddann if Ray doesn't<br />
come out <strong>of</strong> the meeting there at the Leland--a big dinner <strong>of</strong> some<br />
kind--and we run into each other. And he said--oh, by this rZme<br />
things had cooled down, you know, things were cool--we were no longer<br />
hunting each other. And he said, "Indian, what the hell. are you<br />
doing here?" I said, "Just going through. Going to Chicago ."<br />
"You still working at ~ouisvi~le?" I lied, I said, "Yes .I'<br />
Why, he<br />
said, "I've got: a hell <strong>of</strong> a meeting in there," and he says, "it's<br />
going to be over. Come on in and join us.'' He said, "And then after<br />
that we'll go up to the headquarters and sit down and do chatting."<br />
"Okay ." So I went in there and Goddamn i.f the first thing you know,<br />
why, he takes me a.nd goes towards the <strong>of</strong>fice and sets me down and he<br />
begins to pummel me with questions, "Why, don't: you go to work for<br />
me. " And I say, "Well, hell, I got a Job. " "Ah," he said, "you can<br />
resign but I don't think you're working down there. L think you . . .<br />
something tells me you're not: working down there.<br />
up here. Why don't you work for me?"<br />
You wouldn't be<br />
Well, to make a long story short, damn, if I don't go to work for him.<br />
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Sign me up and sends me to Chicago. And I was walking out <strong>of</strong> the<br />
<strong>of</strong>fice and he said, "~ey, Indian, come back here." Be said, "In<br />
addition to reporting to Brennan Ford up in Chicago," he said--that's<br />
the district manager up there. He said, "How about Tilly and the kids?"<br />
Now think <strong>of</strong> this. He remcmbcred Tilly and the kids! hat's how<br />
thoughtful he was. I said, "They're in ~ouisville." Well, he said,<br />
"You're not going to 1-eave them down thcre." T said, "For a while."<br />
He said, "You are like hell." He said, "I want you to go down there<br />
and get them right now." And he said, "I know you don't have any<br />
damn money." He sat down and wrote me a check for three hundred and<br />
fifty dollars, and he said, "You go down there and get those kids and<br />
Tilly loaded up and move them right to Chicago." I said, "I can't<br />
pay this back right away, you know. Only as f get it." "That's all<br />
right," he said. "Don't worry about it. " And he always forever when<br />
he sent me, later on kc sent me down here and made me regional director<br />
in Alton. I broke all these company unions in Alton, it was all company<br />
union, And every time I had a Goddamn certification far a election<br />
coming up the phone would ring and it would be Kay [who would] say,<br />
"Do you need some money down there?" They are always forever using<br />
money, you know. They want money to swing everything, Like the Nixon<br />
crowd. And Z say, "Hell, if I have to organize with money I ain't<br />
going to have a good organization." I'd say, "1'11 send you down<br />
a . . . (tape ends abruptly)<br />
A. What's our destiny? I think we ought to talk about this a little<br />
bir. History is fine. We ought to learn from history but 1 think<br />
we ought to be concerned maybe about our social conditions <strong>of</strong> today.<br />
Our waywardness <strong>of</strong> today. Where art thou going? That's the good<br />
question. Whar do you think, Nick? Nick won't answer. I can't get<br />
Nick to say anything. He's with the Democrats now and Goddamn I got<br />
to trcad cautiously here.<br />
Q. Now you and Ray Edmunds were working together. I'm sure there's<br />
not a single dat~ that you can set but when did that start cooling <strong>of</strong>f?<br />
A, The DuQuoin case wa.s the leader in subsiding the tensions and the<br />
hatred there between the leaders. Like when we were . . .<br />
Q. Like you and Ray Edmunds.<br />
A. When we were working with United Mine Workers on the DuQuoin case.<br />
Quite normally there would he a period <strong>of</strong> time where we discuss many<br />
ramifications <strong>of</strong> the mining industry and the miners' union had our<br />
problem. Our concerns, our own, "Where in "thc hell are wc going?"<br />
We asked each other things like this. If the move was good that pasticular<br />
moment, well, we elaborated and one wmd, one sentence led<br />
into a paragraph and a paragraph became a chapter and the chapter<br />
became the book. And we learned to trust each other at least in this<br />
realm <strong>of</strong> discussion and it brought a good feeling, Oh, we could quitc<br />
frantically say now killing ourselves like this in this factional<br />
struggle is not only insane it's criminal, criminal and it leads to<br />
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nothing good. And we would also elaborate part <strong>of</strong> it by saying, "In<br />
the midst <strong>of</strong> all OF this the coal operators reeking no reward from our<br />
blood and sweat and our factionalism hc derives pr<strong>of</strong>its by worsening<br />
conditions, hy creating hazards in the m h e or permitting them to<br />
remain in the mine. So it was all becoming just a senseless piece <strong>of</strong><br />
nonsense.<br />
4. After they threw you out <strong>of</strong> your position, were you still . . .<br />
A. Shur that thing <strong>of</strong>f £or a second. (tape turned <strong>of</strong>f and on again)<br />
Q. To check on the records, how many people were on the march? In<br />
approximate numbers.<br />
A. I'd have to guess about that, Nick. I'd have to guess at that.<br />
Q. That would be good. That's all right, ma.<br />
A. I'd say, ten, fifteen thousand.<br />
Q. Okay. You told us that you have no 5dea how many were injured<br />
in the ambush.<br />
A. No.<br />
Q. Were there any killed?<br />
A. No. No. No one was killed.<br />
Q. Do you have any idea how many people spent the first or two nights<br />
<strong>of</strong> the ambush in DuQuoin?<br />
A. Oh, I'd say the greater portion. I'd say at least ten thousand<br />
in DuQuoin that evening.<br />
Q. What was the population <strong>of</strong> DuQdoin at that time? Do you have any<br />
.idea?<br />
A. I'd have to guess about that too. I would say that ten, twelve<br />
thousand.<br />
Q. In other words it just about doubled. The population <strong>of</strong> the tom.<br />
A. Yes, Wc equaled the population, I'd say.<br />
Q. So there was a great congregation <strong>of</strong> Progressives in DuQuoin on<br />
that night. Was therc any tension <strong>of</strong> the town folks on that basis?<br />
A. Was there any what?<br />
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Q. Was there any tension? Or were they afraid . . ,<br />
A. I would say the DuQuoin people were secluded and fearful lather<br />
than helpful and cooperative.<br />
Q. And where did most <strong>of</strong> thc people who came from the march spend<br />
that night?<br />
A. On the lawns a.nd in the streets.<br />
Q. They just about took over the town and there was this gveat mass<br />
<strong>of</strong> humanity . . .<br />
A. Took over in one respect as far as numbers is concern.ed.<br />
Q. Peacefully, but . . ,<br />
A. Yes, but we were segregated to certain areas--we couldn't march<br />
around and pretend Like we're demonstrating, making speeches and so<br />
on and so forth.<br />
Q. Were great numbers <strong>of</strong> the pol-ice, National Guards etc. involved<br />
in DuQuoin?<br />
A. Great numbers <strong>of</strong> the state police were there in force that night*<br />
Great numbers. In addi.tion to that the county authorities had deputized<br />
literally hundreds <strong>of</strong> citizens.<br />
Q. Was there any violence in DuQuoin those two first nights except<br />
pushing by the. National Guard and an occasional clubbing?<br />
A. Except the. rough stuff on the part <strong>of</strong> the police and deputies and<br />
the deputized.<br />
Q. There was no bat~le?<br />
A. No.<br />
Q. Was the National Guard there?<br />
A. No.<br />
Q. Oh, there wasn't National Guard. Before you were talking about<br />
deputy sheriffs then?<br />
A. Deputy sherf ff s .<br />
Q. And the state troopers?<br />
A. Yes. In great numbers. In uth.er words we were restricted ta<br />
certain areas <strong>of</strong> the city. If we sought tu dispersc and sort <strong>of</strong><br />
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infiltrate the town we weren't permitted to do that.<br />
blocked <strong>of</strong>f and could stay only certain places.<br />
They had streets<br />
Q. In a few days foll.owing your stop in DuQuoin after the ambush, most<br />
<strong>of</strong> the marchers returned to their communi.ties, is that correct?<br />
A. Yes. ~hdt's right.<br />
9. Did any action take place after that, once the people came back<br />
to their comunitics, were there any fo1l.o~ up meetings, any discussion<br />
<strong>of</strong> what was to be done, if anything?<br />
A. Unfor~unately there was a period, a long, long, long period, <strong>of</strong><br />
the consternation and indignation and feudal laminations so to speak,<br />
Unfortunately in this respect somehow or other the leadership that<br />
had returned back just weren't capable <strong>of</strong> meeting that situation and<br />
organizing something out <strong>of</strong> it.<br />
Q. Would you say then that the . . .<br />
A. I'd say it was a period <strong>of</strong> complete, a vacuum so to speak, as a<br />
vacuum involving more lamentation and indignation than organization<br />
and discipline.<br />
Q. Wou1.d you say then thac the shock <strong>of</strong> the ambush was perhaps thc<br />
crucial factor in defeating the Progressive union?<br />
A. No. No.<br />
Q. No?<br />
A. No. No. That stiffened the backbone and increased the furor or<br />
anger among the miners. And deepened the enmity but as I said there<br />
was a period there following that disastrous march, the failure <strong>of</strong><br />
that march in which thcrc was a lack <strong>of</strong> discipline and organization<br />
and plans. Now on the other hand I've pointed out that among the<br />
radical elements, that we did something about it which we considered<br />
a proper response to this massacre as I might term it. We organized<br />
a battalion <strong>of</strong> riflemen and took possession <strong>of</strong> an encampment at<br />
Goulterville and stayed there a week and dared every son-<strong>of</strong>-a-bitch<br />
in the county and statc to come and get us.<br />
Now this was a unilateral action on our part. 1 explain aga.in very<br />
patiently because it needs explaining. That we were reluctant to<br />
approach the conservative leadership <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners whom<br />
we knew intimately, worked in the mines with them for years, that<br />
ideologically they were not capable <strong>of</strong> understanding action <strong>of</strong> this<br />
kind. These tactics were foreign LO these people and we were afraid<br />
<strong>of</strong> pushing the issue with them and asking their cooperation for fear<br />
~ha.t it would alienate our unity, our solidarity. Now, we were<br />
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absolutely right as events later proved because once or twice we<br />
attempted, well, let me give you a specific instance. Jerry AlJard<br />
was the editor <strong>of</strong> The Progressive Miner and Jerry Allard, ideologically<br />
is a socialist, a radical compared to the Keps and the Percys who were<br />
the <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miner. And Jerry was writing dynamic<br />
stuff in there. He wasn't calling them Mr. Mondell, he was calling<br />
them thugs, gunmen and thugs. And he was hdicting the state for<br />
its failure to exercise proper law and order so to speak. Ha was<br />
calling a spade a spade. A conservative <strong>of</strong>ficial began to say, "Now,<br />
Jerry, tone this paper. Tone down your tyrannies. This is no way<br />
to win the <strong>Illinois</strong> struggle." And we were saying, Jerry was saying<br />
through us, "You can go to hell. This is the way it is, this is the<br />
way it's going to be and this is what T'm going to keep saying."<br />
They got rid <strong>of</strong> him, fired him.<br />
Q. They did.<br />
A. Oh, sure, fired him. He was the first one that paid the penalty.<br />
Q. Al.lard was the editor.<br />
A. Sure he was removed. Bombed out and we raised hell, <strong>of</strong> course,<br />
we entered a local union, we threatened to stop thc payment <strong>of</strong> dues.<br />
We would raise hell. Well, now the hell continued so next they<br />
figured out a very elaborate scheme which is contained in this little<br />
pamphlet, between the coal operators and the <strong>of</strong>ficials in the Progsessive<br />
Miners to get the other radicals that were defending Jerry, that<br />
were proposing drastic fundamental movements and tactics. That was<br />
me and Dave Reed and Bill Capone and Mike Capone and John Fisher and<br />
a lot <strong>of</strong> others. So they moved on us. And they got us. The same way.<br />
So as I've said Sf we had to propose a rifle squadron at that period<br />
the same thing would have happened that later happened with Jerry<br />
and the other radicals when we kept insisting on proper tactics and<br />
proper program and proper planning. Revolutionary to them, it was.<br />
To them it was revolutionary but this is the only tactic that could<br />
win in this thing. We proposed the next best thing which also was<br />
the basis for our trial and expulsion: arganizati,onal unity, the<br />
pamphS.et describes that in detail. It's documented with stare <strong>of</strong>ficial<br />
letters and so on and so forth. Let's work organizationally not<br />
only will we eliminate harsh feeling and bitterness and blood thirstiness<br />
that exist among our ranks, not only will it terminate this<br />
senseless depredation and killing that's going on but it will safeguard<br />
and improve the conditions that we have, what few we have left,<br />
Ul.timately, logically this should 1-ead to organized unity. ~on't you see.<br />
By the way, we couldn't talk to these people, we did and we held<br />
meetings in ColLinsville, we held meetings, we met with the United<br />
Mine Worker. We invited the <strong>of</strong>ficial Lo go on, Here they were<br />
shooting, they call it on-ship shooting. Here's two and three<br />
hundred men in a mine and this is a condition that is unthinkable<br />
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and they allowed them to shoot in the mines while men were there.<br />
All this powder, smoke and fumes and this is a violent Goddamn violation<br />
<strong>of</strong> the contract and the mi-ning laws, the IllinoTs and the Federal,<br />
and nobody could stop that but we got Ray Edmunds and we went up there<br />
in the department <strong>of</strong> mines, went to the governor, we got that stopped.<br />
Multiply shooting, compensation laws, all these thfngs we stopped and<br />
we only had from the time they tried us until the time they expelled<br />
us. TJe only had a few months in there but yet we accomplished tremendous<br />
Eoddamn cooperation between the two unions, And we got to the point<br />
where by God we had a feeling <strong>of</strong> unity agairi. We were acting.<br />
Let me give you another example. Gillespie coal miners number one<br />
local union--twenty-four hundred members one day were confronted with<br />
the decision they had to make or else lose some more conditions, bad<br />
conditions for them. The coal company decided that anybody could<br />
repair electrical circuits and conduits. Anybody. And we said no.<br />
Bill Capone was the president at that time. I was the executive board<br />
member and so when the company tried to force this condition oa to<br />
the miners <strong>of</strong> Number 1 local they rebelled and they struck.<br />
They struck by slowing down not striking. They slowed down the production<br />
and the coal company was forced to close the nine down. Now,<br />
here's miners locked out, figuratively speaking, because the miners<br />
didn't strike. They cut down production, <strong>of</strong> course, that was supposed<br />
to he sub rosa and all. Well, Dave Reed and I went over to the<br />
United Mine Workers Mr. Ray Edmunds and we said, "Ray, the miners<br />
are striking in Gil.lespie for a damn good cause, they're Progressive<br />
miners but the United Mine Workers should recognize this as a legitimate<br />
strike for a good cause and you should not permit the Taylorville<br />
Peabody Coal Company to load Superior Coal Company carst'--which they<br />
inten.ded to ship over thcre and get them loaded, to supply their own<br />
domestic use. Ray Edmunds said, "l'm with you, We'll not Load their<br />
damn cars. We'll support your strike."<br />
Now, just think <strong>of</strong> this, figuratively speaking, two weeks before that<br />
we were killing each other. That's figuratively. And here now we're<br />
supporting each other in a strike agai.nst a coal opeator that was<br />
trying to worsen our condition. And we released a statement to that<br />
effect, The next morning the papers come out and here <strong>Jack</strong> McCleggan,<br />
Dave Reed, Progressive Miner <strong>of</strong>ficial, board member and president<br />
respectively agree with Ray Edmunds and district president <strong>of</strong> the<br />
United Mine Workers that they are going to cooperate in a cause benef<br />
icial to the miners .<br />
Well, you can imagine what Clyde Percy and them said the next day,<br />
"Gee," Their eyes told everything. We were charged with treason,<br />
Treason! Who is these two guys, they have no right to go up there<br />
and make an agreement with the United Mine Workers and so on and so<br />
on. I got the whole damn thing. It's in there. It's in there.<br />
There, it 's in thcre. Well.<br />
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Q. <strong>Jack</strong>, I would like to ask you a couple more questions before we<br />
conclude. You mentioned that following ambush, at Mulkeytown, you<br />
had come on a couple or more occasions to Franklin County to secret<br />
meetings with the miners . . .<br />
A. To try to revive the movement.<br />
Q. Have you participated in any secret meetings <strong>of</strong> this nature prior<br />
to the march? In Franklin County or in that general region?<br />
A. Yes' One. That's the day that I met Jerry Allard. This was in<br />
Zeigler. Or was in . . . Zeigler. The United Mine Worker was holding<br />
some kind <strong>of</strong> a regional meeting in Zeigler and I, along with<br />
about ten or fifteen real activists from Local Number 1, attended<br />
that meeting and that's the day that I met Jerry Allard.<br />
Q. What are your reco1.lections <strong>of</strong> those meetings?<br />
A. We did not speak down there that day but we did a lot <strong>of</strong> talking.<br />
And in addition to meeting Jerry we had formed out <strong>of</strong> that occasion<br />
a little click that was to endure for the reminder <strong>of</strong> the struggle<br />
and for our life time.<br />
Q. Oh, what are your recollcctions <strong>of</strong> what was the sentiment among<br />
thc miners in that area?<br />
A. In that particular meeting it was good. Tt was considerable<br />
griping about the state <strong>of</strong> affairs within the Unfted Mine Workers,<br />
the destruction <strong>of</strong> autonomy, the loss <strong>of</strong> referendum in the outlying<br />
states. The worsening <strong>of</strong> conditions in the State <strong>of</strong> IllinoSs is<br />
within the mines. It was wholesome and very spontaneous that day.<br />
But when the bosses and the preachers and all <strong>of</strong> them got to the<br />
miners in the real struggle hat followed thca all <strong>of</strong> that was somehow<br />
or othcr lost.<br />
Q. Of the first legal action that John Lewis took against the miners<br />
automony in <strong>Illinois</strong> was actual.1~ in Franklin County because he charged<br />
that union funds were embezzled and it was . . .<br />
A. Expelled. He expelled them.<br />
Q. Right. That the fact District 12 as a whole came in support <strong>of</strong><br />
Franklin County created more as the situation <strong>of</strong> the Progressive<br />
Miners came out. Why, if that was the case didn't the miners dawn<br />
south in Franklin County and surrounding areas come more actively in<br />
the Progressive ranks?<br />
A. I don't know whether I . . .<br />
Q. They were the first victims . . .<br />
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<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong><br />
A. I don't know . . . You were talking about the expulsion <strong>of</strong> the<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> the Sub-district 9.<br />
Q. Right.<br />
A. Wcll, that's not quite my version <strong>of</strong> it, my knowledge <strong>of</strong> the affair.<br />
I'm reluctant: to speak about this because I'm not, I don't have this<br />
research to even then as 1 should have. But from the knowledge that<br />
I have <strong>of</strong> that affair and thc affairs in Sub-district 9 and the persons<br />
involved who later became one member president <strong>of</strong> the Progressive<br />
Miners <strong>of</strong> America, later on, years later, was due to the fact <strong>of</strong> some<br />
embezzlement. Some mismanagement in tha.t <strong>of</strong>fice and there was not a<br />
great deal <strong>of</strong> uprising or resentment about chat in Franklin County<br />
and it had nothing to do about the formation or the leading <strong>of</strong> the<br />
formation <strong>of</strong> the Progressive Miners. It was pretty much a personal<br />
thing down there, involving persons within that district and I don't<br />
mind mentioning he's still living but Johnny Marshando was the secretary-treasurer<br />
<strong>of</strong> District 9, and after he was expelled he never<br />
supporred the Progressive Miners during its foerna.tion, during its<br />
struggles in the beginning but only after he was taken out <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>fice<br />
for reasons that are not just exactly pure that he became sympathetic<br />
to the Progressive Miners. Later [he] became participant and later<br />
still a president.<br />
9. <strong>Jack</strong>, as the caravan started from Gillespie and moved on down south<br />
and as you were gohg through the small towns et cetera on your way<br />
south, what were the local people doing? Were they smiling and<br />
waving at you or shaking their fist, throwing rocks or clubbing you?<br />
What was taking place?<br />
A. The entire caravan was wrlcome and greeted very friendly all the<br />
way to Swansea, After that it became hostile territory.<br />
Q. Have you any explanation why there was this sudden break in that<br />
local people's attitude? Friendly and then [it changed] aftcr a<br />
certain imaginary line that you crossed,<br />
A. Well, I said friendly involving that Zefgler meeting only. I<br />
cannot attest to the sentiment <strong>of</strong> the Franklin County people generally<br />
at that time because I had not made other then visitations for personal<br />
reasons, 1 have not made any great examinatton or visitation ro that<br />
area. There's much to be said abouc the attitudes <strong>of</strong> the southern,<br />
LittJk Egypt, they call it, and <strong>of</strong> course that needs another chapter<br />
to describe. Originally those people were southerners in their<br />
heritage and, <strong>of</strong> course, they brought wirh them the southern ways<br />
and the southern attitudes. It was not too closely aligned with the<br />
northern attitudes in the northern part <strong>of</strong> the state which was more<br />
liberal, more radical., more conversant with economic conditions.<br />
But I still. maintain had we got i.nto thc county and could have talked<br />
to them over a period <strong>of</strong> a week, there's no question in my mind that<br />
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we would have struck every mine down there and they would have eventually<br />
became the Progressives. I think the Mulkeytown march was disastrous<br />
for the Progressive Miners in this point <strong>of</strong> time, disastrous at least<br />
chat's the way I analyze it now.<br />
Q. At the point <strong>of</strong> ambush there was actually no battle, it was all<br />
one sided, is that correct? There was no resistance on the part <strong>of</strong><br />
the marchers.<br />
A. We never resisted, we were defenseless, we were weaponless, we<br />
<strong>of</strong>fered no resistance. As a matter <strong>of</strong> fact our whole tactic was one<br />
<strong>of</strong> pacifying, <strong>of</strong> persuading, <strong>of</strong> pleadings, one <strong>of</strong> convincing with<br />
logic and facts. We knew we could win with this tactic if we could<br />
get in there but we had no idea we'd be ambushed. We had, as I<br />
explained, we had talked about what they would do when we got there<br />
and we discussed among other things an injunction which would be<br />
issued naturally, perhaps even court martial law. We knew that the<br />
police would harass us and restrain US from participating in the<br />
community affairs and discussion with the citizens, we knew that.<br />
But some how or another we could have overcome that but when the<br />
ambush occurred all <strong>of</strong> that went down the drain and so we can only<br />
I-oak back in retrospect and use the word if.<br />
Q. You mentioned that there was no i.nvestiga.tion made.<br />
A. No, there wasn't even a loud outcry <strong>of</strong> indignatiod on the part<br />
<strong>of</strong> the citizens <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong>.<br />
Q. A number <strong>of</strong> peop1.e lost their property there didn't they? Their<br />
cars, their trucks, thcir personal belongings, and all <strong>of</strong> that,<br />
A. Oh, yes. Those Progressi.vc Miners, or sympathizers <strong>of</strong> Progressive<br />
Miners that joined in sentiment with our movement they lost their job,<br />
they lost their homes. Hundreds <strong>of</strong> them had Lo move out <strong>of</strong> there,<br />
move elsewhere.<br />
Q. There was no reimbursements for the cars that were destroyed?<br />
A. None, not a nickel in reparations, nothing. There was no money--<br />
who in the hell is going to give us reparations? There was no, the<br />
signkficant or what word am I struggling for? The unthinkable thing<br />
that happened in the state <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong>, the lack <strong>of</strong> moral indignation<br />
<strong>of</strong> what happened there, how it was done, how it occurred, nothing,<br />
not even a governor made a mild protest about it. Not even a governor.<br />
I know John Steele personally. 1 met with Homer. I've talked to a<br />
lot <strong>of</strong> representatives. That was my job doing a lot <strong>of</strong> proselytizing<br />
among senators, representatives, you know, a little lobbying up at<br />
the State House, the most crooked Goddamn Statehouse outside <strong>of</strong> New<br />
Jersey that there is in the IJnited States. But we never had no sympathy,<br />
no help, not even any complaints on the part <strong>of</strong> the <strong>Illinois</strong> enforcement<br />
agencies about the flagrant, violent, blatant violation <strong>of</strong> civil rights,<br />
civil liberties not a centile.<br />
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Q. No General Assembly investigation nor tried to follow up in any<br />
way,<br />
A. who?<br />
Q. The General Assembly in <strong>Springfield</strong>.<br />
A. Not a word.<br />
Q. What about local representatives, local state representatives at<br />
that time?<br />
A. Their lines formed in conjunction with the sympathies <strong>of</strong> the<br />
unions. If it was a Progrcssive territory, they were Progressives.<br />
If it was United Mine they were for the United Mine Worker. Oh,<br />
once in a while, I think that the only papers that really showed any<br />
interest or any inclination to defend ci.vi1 liberties was the<br />
-St. Louis<br />
Star Times and the Post D,ispatch. Occasionally they have an editorial<br />
and a lead story in it. But the height <strong>of</strong> the protest that was made<br />
came from those papers, <strong>Springfield</strong> papers, those were arch Republicans,<br />
you know, and they'd print the news as i.t happened bur wirh distortions<br />
at that, distortions at that. So it was hard to keep track <strong>of</strong> the<br />
press at that time. We did have, we had no . . . just no support,<br />
none at all. No indignation about what was happening.<br />
Q. You want to tell us anything else?<br />
A. I was interested in a later occurrence when twenty eight or thirty<br />
eight men. went: to prison? And I've heard that there were . . . let's<br />
see how does that go? The . . .<br />
Q. Eighteen. (laughs) How does that come abouc? That a small . . .<br />
A. Of course, that's an interesting, fascinating movement, too.<br />
This is a11 the indictment <strong>of</strong> these men that were sent to Atlanta<br />
is all part <strong>of</strong> the movement <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers to destroy<br />
the Progressive Miner. That is jusr another facet <strong>of</strong> it. We figured,<br />
well, if they could get a few <strong>of</strong> the leaders, you know, and sent them<br />
to jail, why, that would further destroy the, nullify activities <strong>of</strong><br />
the movement. Anyhow, primarily the indictment rest with the,Progressive<br />
Miners--the final indictment and then conviction rest with<br />
the Progressive Miners. It's a hell <strong>of</strong> a thing to say but it happened<br />
that way.<br />
I was subpoenaed and the United States Marshall came down to Wilsonville<br />
and go,t me and took me to <strong>Springfield</strong>. Next morning 1 was put<br />
into a room with about, oh, fifty, sixty other witnesses that: were<br />
waiting to appear before the Federal Grand Jury. And while 1 was<br />
$it,ting there 1 was listening to all the conversations that was going<br />
on in rherc in the conference room. It's supposed to be a secret room<br />
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You couldn't get out or get in without bailiff consent. I heard these<br />
various people talking and Progressive Miner members--and I kept hearing<br />
them say, "I don't know why they called me. T don't know a damn<br />
thing." And they were worrying about: ir. Some <strong>of</strong> them say, "Well,<br />
I know some good about this," and I thought LO myself, "How foolish<br />
and naive can these people be?" So I went arouad and whispered to<br />
them and said, "You're talkfng a little loud, you guys. This room<br />
can be bugged, you know. " Said, "Close .your damn trap. I' I heard one<br />
<strong>of</strong> them say, "Well, what am I going to do? I don't know nothing about<br />
tlhis damn thing and if I do know some6hing about it I don't wane to<br />
tell. about it." I said, ell, you're going ta have to go in there<br />
and do the best yo,u know how but <strong>of</strong> course you don't have to say anything<br />
you don't want to. You just don't know."<br />
There's been depredation, property destruction and railroad tracks<br />
and coal trucks, coal cars and all <strong>of</strong> that. Sure, there was some <strong>of</strong><br />
that. Hell., there was retaliation. There was--defensive purposes<br />
too. So I said, "Well, this room can be bugged, don't talk abourr<br />
that." "Oh, well, what can L tell. you?'' I said, "DO the best you<br />
know haw and don't get excited, take your time." "Well, what are<br />
you going to do?" I said, "Well, I'm sitting here thinking about<br />
tha.t very damn thing.'' And I'm pretty deep, I'm way at the top or<br />
at the "bottom, (laughs) I don't know which one you call it but,<br />
and I could talk a long time, you know, and say a lot <strong>of</strong> things and<br />
I thought, "Well, John, you've got to learn to protect yourself somehow<br />
and you're not going to lie about it if you don't have to. I'm<br />
going to tell you the damn truth about every damn word I'm telling<br />
you is the truth.<br />
So pretty soon the bailiff come in and said, "John <strong>Battuello</strong>." I wene<br />
into that Grand Jury room, first grand jury room I'd even been in my<br />
life and the first thing that I observed was here's twenty-three jurors<br />
sitting there a11 sprawled out, you know, all kind <strong>of</strong> manners. Their<br />
chairs tipped back and some <strong>of</strong> them drooping and some <strong>of</strong> them their<br />
legs crossed, all <strong>of</strong> them appeared bored, every damn one <strong>of</strong> them<br />
appeared bored. They had been listening to voluminous, monotonous<br />
testimony a1.l.. day.<br />
And I, didn't even know where the witness chair was at. So I seen the<br />
jurors and bailiff said, "This way Mr. Bat'tuello." And there was the<br />
~Stness chair and here's the counselor's table and there's about fifteen<br />
Federal lawyers sitting there and he led me around there and got up<br />
on the witness chair and beforc 1 could even take a breath he said,<br />
II<br />
Mr. <strong>Battuello</strong>, rise. " One <strong>of</strong> the lawyers dorm there, "Rise," and<br />
he gave me the oath, religious oath. I attempted to interrupt him.<br />
I said, "I decline LO take a religious oath." I said, "1'11 make an<br />
affirmation but I decline to take an oath." He just kept rambling on<br />
and completed the religious oath. And he said, "Be seated. What's<br />
your name? Whcre do you live? et cetera, et cetera."<br />
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Then he asked me, "DO you know Clyde Percy?--that was one <strong>of</strong> the<br />
presidents--"Do you know Bill Kik?" And he started leading me into<br />
questions about them. "Wl~at do you know about ,chis and what: db you<br />
know about that, what a.bout this?" Finally one <strong>of</strong> the other lawyers--<br />
thts all happened in a matter <strong>of</strong> five minutes--the other lawyer whispered<br />
something Lo him. The lawyer, he was cross-examining me looked<br />
up and said, "Did I: understand you to say that you refused to decline<br />
to take a religious oath?" And 3: said, "Yes, sir," And every Goddamn<br />
one <strong>of</strong> those jurors that had their chairs tipped back against the wall,<br />
let their chairs fall ~imul~taneous in one (laughs) big clank in that<br />
da.m jury room.<br />
And I: thought, "Now, he's going to get himself in a little deeper.<br />
He's going to ask me why I'm an agnostic or an atheist or an infidel,<br />
I know he's going to ask me this." And I. said, "Yes, sir." And f<br />
said, "I refuse to take a religious oath." And I, said, "I stated I<br />
would be happy to make an affirmation." And he said, "Why, do you<br />
refuse?" I said, "Because I'm agnosti.cally inclined."<br />
Now he started to lead me into another question and the other Lawyers<br />
(Laughs) two <strong>of</strong> them leaned over to him and he says, (laughs) "You<br />
better stop this." I heard him whisper something, "You better stop<br />
this or something, better get him an affirmation." And 1 heard him<br />
say, "How do you give an affirmation." He never in all his legal<br />
experience had ever given an affirmation, always a religious oath.<br />
And then I heard the guy say, "Just: delete the word <strong>of</strong> God and just<br />
substitute your word <strong>of</strong> honor." So he gave me an affirmation. (laughs)<br />
By this time I'd chilled everybody. He didn't want to ask me any more<br />
questions.<br />
He asked the bailiff to take me down and the bailiff told me, "Mr.<br />
oh, he was the chief prosecutor from Tennessee, Witiker, oh, T forget<br />
his name, "wanted to see me in his <strong>of</strong>fice a.t. two o'clock, privately."<br />
That's the only questions he asked me. Two o'clock I went in therc<br />
and I sat with that Witiker for two and a half hours, I'm sure he<br />
had that damn phone bugged because he wanted me to set in a certain<br />
place, see. You know, there were chairs there but I wanted to sit<br />
over here and he kept insisting T sit here. I said, "811 right let<br />
thc son-<strong>of</strong>-a-bitch be taped S don't case because I'm going to tell<br />
him something." We sat therc and honest to God we talked about<br />
socialism in France, socialism in England, socialism in Russia and<br />
nihilism in Russia, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harding, we talked about<br />
everythingand Tilly was sick at the time that he came and got me and<br />
I told him in the beginning that my wife was pretty sick and I'd certainly<br />
like to get home if it was possible,<br />
But afccr that conversation he thanked me, led me to the window to<br />
get my per diem expense, three dollars a day or what ever it was and<br />
wished Tilly well and a speedy recovery and I was released and I never<br />
heard no more from them.<br />
. . . 'I<br />
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But the Progressive Miners got in there, the members and the other<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers and they squabbled and squawked on each other and that's<br />
how that indictment came about. They told. They betrayed themselves.<br />
(laughs) That's right. That's a hell <strong>of</strong> a thing to say but that's<br />
how it came about. They squealed.<br />
No United Mine Worker was ever tried. They killed forty-rwo <strong>of</strong> our<br />
people. Forty-two <strong>of</strong> our people and they clubbed and they beat and<br />
and they violated every law, every concept <strong>of</strong> civil liberties and<br />
not one man was ever tried <strong>of</strong> the United Mine Workers. They sent us<br />
to jail. That's it folks.<br />
Q. T heard there were check stubs pfcked up from the United Mine<br />
Workers that would have hel-ped in the defense <strong>of</strong> these men but they<br />
were not used. Have you ever heard that story?<br />
A. No, no. No nothing about it.<br />
Q. I was wondering who your lawyer was that decided not to use this<br />
information.<br />
A. I don't know. I don't know nothing about chat. b don't know anything<br />
about that. Well, T helped to raise band for them. And the<br />
bond was real high, tom. Seventy-five thousand dollars, fifty thousand<br />
dollars Tor each person.<br />
Q. For cach one?<br />
Q, What we.re they charged with?<br />
A. Conspiracy, depredation and property destruction and interstate<br />
violations all across everything. And 1 can tell you truthfully to<br />
my knowledge not one <strong>of</strong> those men that went to prison . , . I don't<br />
know <strong>of</strong> a single violation that they ever made, not one act <strong>of</strong> violence<br />
or depredation or property destruction. I don't know any <strong>of</strong> them.<br />
Q. How did they select thcm?<br />
A. I don't know. I think they wanted to . . The United Mine<br />
Worker's purpose was to establish a pattern <strong>of</strong> intimidation, They<br />
didn't care too much for an individual. I was surprised I wasn't . . .<br />
Q. I was going to ask you. Now dPd you stay out <strong>of</strong> the net?<br />
A. Why, 1 don't how, except that I refused to take a religious oath<br />
and they let me go. I've talked to them don't forget I had a two and<br />
a half hour conference with Mr. Witiker, though, he was the chief<br />
prosecator. And he asked me questions about Percy, he asked me<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> 13attvello 74<br />
questions about Joe Ozanic, he asked me questions about Bill Kik,<br />
oh, for hours.<br />
We finally ended up talking about socialism and anarchism and nihilism<br />
and syndicalism but: he questioned me about thar and I told him he, for<br />
instance, he. asked me how well I knew Percy and how well was I knowledgeable<br />
about his activities as an individual, as a citizen and as a<br />
member <strong>of</strong> the Yrogresstve Miners. I said, "Pairl..y." "Well, what kind<br />
<strong>of</strong> a man is he?" And I sa.id, "~e' s a good Democrat. 'I And I. said,<br />
"I don't think he ever got outside <strong>of</strong> the realm <strong>of</strong> the Democratic<br />
party and all that it stands for. That's the extent <strong>of</strong> his activities.<br />
h little conservative in the labor movement, 1 said, but he's not<br />
violent." I said, "He's an upstanding, upright citizen," 13iL1 Kik,<br />
Joe Ozanic, I said the same thing and they'd spit him in my face if<br />
they had me in the same situation. They'd spit in my face.<br />
I think the guy you ought to interview is Joe Ozanic. He's a little<br />
older than I am. He's seventy-five or seventy-six and they tell me<br />
he's not in too good physical shape. There's the guy you ought to<br />
interview, Get yourself prepared with some material, me and others<br />
and then interview him and see what the hell answers he gives for<br />
his posftion ar that time. That's what you ought to do. I'd give<br />
five dollars out <strong>of</strong> my pocket or ten if I could just meet him accidentl-y,<br />
I've been trying to run in to him. I've drove a mile and<br />
just look around to scc if I could see htm on the streets and 1 don't<br />
want to go to his house because that's his domain and he might tell<br />
mc not to come in, see, and I don't want that, But I'd like to talk<br />
to Joe Ozanic. I'd give a million dollars if I had it just to talk<br />
to him. I'd like to blccd him out <strong>of</strong> . . . look back at his records<br />
and what he stood for. I'd call him a company stooge at that--twentyfive<br />
thousand [dollars bond]--I just figured 1 never had no repercussions<br />
from that. I indicted Mr. D. D. Wilcoxen, too. You know in my<br />
interview 1 said I'd said I'd never been <strong>of</strong>fered a bribe, That's not<br />
true I've bcen <strong>of</strong>fered lots <strong>of</strong> bribes in lots <strong>of</strong> forms.<br />
Q. From companies?<br />
A. From companks.<br />
Q. Or the other union?<br />
A. 1927 the Superior Coal Company <strong>of</strong>fered me a [job as] personnel<br />
director [<strong>of</strong> a company] he was buying if 1 would just be a good boy,<br />
come with him. I've organized Rroger Midwestern. Kroger Company<br />
<strong>of</strong>fered me personnel director. About at that time fifteen thousand<br />
doll-ars was about like sixty-five thousand dollars now. That's back<br />
lin the thirties. All T did was gum up their Goddamn transportation<br />
system and make them sign a union contract. I was <strong>of</strong>fered a job at<br />
the Sunshine Biscuit Company. Oh, every little bribe like that I got<br />
a lot <strong>of</strong> them. The only money bribe that I ever got was a stranger<br />
and never figured rit out yet. ~on't know who actually came from.<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>
<strong>Jack</strong> Batruello 75<br />
Came home one night from work i.n Wilsonville, I was working in a mine,<br />
active as hell, you know, in the union. That was a well-dressed fellow<br />
there. Tilly said he'd came about two o'clock and wanted to see me<br />
and . . .<br />
<strong>Jack</strong> <strong>Battuello</strong> <strong>Memoir</strong> -- Archives, <strong>University</strong> <strong>of</strong> <strong>Illinois</strong> at <strong>Springfield</strong>