Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Carl Wittmond Memoir
W787. Wittmond, Carl (1905-1997)
Interview and memoir
13 tapes, 670 mins., 211 pp., plus index
ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Wittmond, Democratic member of the Illinois House of Representatives 1955-67,
discusses issues and events of his years in the General Assembly: campaign and
election, legislative priorities, personalities, Cook County and southern Illinois
factions, a ferry project on the Illinois River at Brussels, the Great River Road
project, conservation and recreation programs and agricultural issues. He also
discusses his years before the legislature: family and life in Calhoun County and
Brussels, Illinois, Quincy College, politics and elections.
Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1982-83
OPEN
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© 1983, University of Illinois Board of Trustees

ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
CARL WITTMOND
PREPARED FOR THE IUINOIS LEGISLATIVE RESEARCH UNIT
BY THE ORAL HISTORY OFFICE, LEGISLATIVE STUOlES CENTER OF SANGAMON STATE UNIVERSITY
SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS
t 088

CARL WIITMOND
ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
1955-1 967
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Preface
This c~ral history of Carl Wittmond's service in the Illinois House of Representatives is a
product of the Illinois Legislative Research Unit's General Assembly Oral llistory
Program. The oral history technique adds :i distinctive new dimension to the unit's statutory
responsibility for performing research and collecting information conrerning the government
of the state.
Carl Wittmond was horn in Brussels, Illinois on Fehruary 2.1, 1905. His family had operated
a Cnlhoun County hotel and other businesses for several generations. As a young I)o!. he
helped in the family work and also came to love the unique region lying between the Illinois
and Mississippi rivers. He attended local schools and Quincy ('allege, after which he settled
in Brussels and assumed responsibilit>- for rnantiging the various family enterprises. In
addition to the, hotel and a restaurant, he practiced farming and later purchased a local
newspaper.
Lluring the, years of the Great Depression Mr. Wittrnortd became active in county Democrat
~mlitics. He met many of thr prominent state politicians of that era, and also served terms
on the local school board, as village trustee and as county public administrator. He and
his nife Zelora continued to make Brussels their home. Ifis 1950 campaign for election to
the lllinois House of Representatives was unsuccessfol, hut four years later he won. In all
Rlr. Wittmond served six terms in the house. from 1955 to 1967. While participating in most
of the major issues and programs of his time, he took a special interest in serving the special
needs of his Calhoun County constituents. He was instrumental in establishing a stateoperated
ferry across the Illinois River, and also in promoting construction of the Great
River Road along the Mississippi River. His rnemoir includcs candid observations about the
Iegislativt~ issues and personalities of his time. After leaving the legislat~~re in 196'7 he
rtmumed active management of his business interests.
Readers of this oral history should hear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken
word. Its informal, conversational style reprrsents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor
and to tap the narrator's memory. However. persons interested in listen in^ to the tapes
should understand that editoria1 considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from
the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should he regarded as primary
historical sources, as no effort was made to correct or rhallengc the narrator.
Keither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Snngamon Stair University is responsible
for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the
re:ider to judge.
The Lape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the fall of 1982
and the spring of 1983. hlr. Waygoner was born in 19'24 in Waggoner, a small farm-service
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

orrrniilnity in central Illinois. At ace 18, ht? enlisted for military rervirr in \Vorl~l\Var I1
and, as a U.S. Air Force comn~issioncti officer., continu~cl to serve 11nti1 1Yi:j. lJpon leaving
seraict,, he resumed his formal clluration, ;irhirving a rn;lrtrr degree in history at Sangan11111
State university. He was associated with the Sangamon State I!nirel.sity Or~d Ilistory
Office from l9i6 until his death in 1987.
Julir Alli!n transcribe11 thr tapes and, after the transcriptions ii-ere cditrd 11y hlirhael Tirpak,
prepared the typescript. Florence Hardin compiled the indrx. The .4ltr1n TelPgraph an11 the
Chicago TI.ihune provided valuat,le assistance in the pre-intervieiv research.
This oral history may be read, quote11 and cited freel?. It may no1 hr reproduced in s~holc~
or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, nithout twitten permission Eronl t h llli~ ~
nois Legislative Research Lnit, Suite A, 222 So. College, Springfield, Illinois. 6270.1.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Table of Contents
The Years Before ................................................................................................................................ 1
Farnily hat.hground in Calhoun ('m~nt? - Family hotel and othcr husinesses
- Life in (lalhoun County and on the rivers - F;

Carl Wittmond
SESSION I, TAPE 1, SIDE I
Q: Where were you born sir?
A: Brussels. Right here in this building.
Q: And when were you born?
A: In 1905, February the 24th.
Q: What was your father's name?
A: Charles H. Wittmond.
Q: Was he also born here in Brusse\s?
A: Yes.
Q: How long had the Wittmond family been in the Brussels area?
A: Around 153 years.
Q: One hundred and fifty-three from now?
A: Yes.
Q: So that would be in the 1840's ...
A: The 1840's then or . . .
Q: ... then or 1830's.
A: . . . something like that yes.
Q: Where did the3 came from before that?
A: Germany and Lithuania.
Q: Do you recalI hearing anything about when they came to the United States?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Not too much no. I never heard them discuss that too much.
Q: Would that have been about your great-grandfather then that . . .
A: Great-grandfather is the one that originally lol.ai.ed here starting a trading post,
Q: Where did he come from?
A: He came from Germany,
Q: Directly to Illinois?
A: Yes.
Q: Did anyone ever say anything about why he came to this part of the United States?
A: Never did hear anyone mention it.
$: What was his name?
A: Conrad
Q: And he settled here in the Brussels area then.
A: Yes.
Q: And set up a trading post here?
A: A trading post here yes.
Q: Was that here at this . ,
A: Right in this same spot . . .
Q: . . . present location?
A: . . . yes.
Q: So the Wittmonds have been in Calhoun County then here in the Brussels area far some
153 years you say.
A: Something on that, yes.
Q: I don't suppose you knew your great-grandfather.
A: No I can't recall. I seen some pictures of him and heard stories about him but I can't
reall really ever seeing him.
Q: How about your grandfather, his son?
A: That would be his - that's m y dad you mean?
Q: Oh I see, your father.
A: Yes.
Q: So this was your grandfather that came?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then your father.
A Yes.
Q: And that was Charles H.
A: Yes.
Q: Had your grandfather died then before you were born or do you remember him at all?
A: No he was still around when I was small. I think I rememhr hearing my mother speak
frequently of him. But I just can't recall vividly much abut him or so.
Q: What kind of person was your father?
A: Oh he was a kind of a meek sort of a fellow. He was too honest for his own good far
one thing.
Q: Oh. (chuckles)
A: TOO god hearted. Always in business all of his life, And I think they probably had
money years and years ago. And every time somebody got married, why, they would sharecrop
in here. And he, being in business, would have to finance them for their groceries and
living expenses from crop to crop. And people in those days was really honest. Everybody
paid. But then in later years it seemed like they had a lot of adverses and he was caught
in a credit squeeze. And every time a child was born he used to stand [when it would] be
christened, and be godfather. And seemed in a local community like this, he was called
upon to perform a lot of those feata.
Q: Ye. And was he still managing the trading post here then at that time?
A: He took it over from his father.
Q: J see, What kind of trading post was it? What kind of activities?
A: They used to buy furs and hogs - guess it was wild hogs - and they would store it
in a building here during the winter months when [they'd] salt it down and then they'd transport
it into St, his by sleds.
Q: How did they get across the river in those days?
A: Oh they had an old raft. In winter months, why, they drove acrosq see.
Q: Oh, on ice?
A: They didn't have the river traffic then to break up the ice. So the river got froze over
and stayed froze over from, probably from first of December until first of March. Now with
the boats constantly traveling the river, why, they just break it up. You can't cross it anymore
like you did years ago.
Q: Was the hotel started . . .
A: Not at that time no. Later years, why, when my father took over, then he started a
hotel. And he added some rooms to the building for people who would come up. Later on
the boats started, steam bats started to ply the rivers. And these traveling salesmen, or
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

drunimrrs the)- usetl to call then], that ~vould bring their wares, arld then the) n~,ul(i rvt
off at the first landing out of St. Louis, and that lvould be Calhoun I'oint ilo~l-n hcre. This
11-ould br the tirst high spot in the area that nas out of the Huoti \raters. The\- \vouliI mr'el
them there with a team of horses and a n-agun and i~ring their samples up here and the>
would stay overnight. And the) n-ould proreell up the count! hrrr nhrn \ve useti to have
a little hamlet evrry four or fire miles :lnd they n-ould contact the incrvhants in that little
area. They'd go up lo one side of the county and then down thr other ~ide of the counL>tvt~ile
this boat was in prr~press going to Keokuk and hack.
And then we catered only to lpeoplr like thal for meals, you kno\v. \Vr nrver hiid an\-t)o~i\-
else traveling through. You never had an)- people stay all night and have tiinnrr. or
somehody who would he traveling frium the other end would conle do\vn here and sta! all
nighl, and bring their horses, and we had a livery stahlc here ~vhere \\e took care uf t h ~
horses. I remember looking orer some books I seen where they got to stay overnigl~t and
get dinner and breakfast for a dollar a night and L~vrnty-tive cents for thc horse, I think
it mas, something like that to feed the hi~rse.
Q: I uniirrstand the hotel mas established sometime around 1890. Is LhaL
:I: In that area, yes. That's when the>- first started the
Q: Where is Calhour~ I'oint frim~ rvhrrr Lhe l'erry is no\\- that runs over to\~artl t;riifton'.'
A: That's on the Illinois River. This C:~lhoun Point is on the R.Iissis.

County that had a spur on this side of the river. And they'd run the cars right onto a barge
and then hit a spur on the other side of the river.
But that was supposed to have been a pretty good sized town. Post-Dispatch wrob a writeup,
I remember reading it, where they hwk a picture of an aid vault where they had kept
the money in the vault and - they didn't have no bank in those days and probably had
stores and different things down there.
Q: Now which river was this?
A That was on the Mississippi River.
Q: I see. So that would be in the vicinity where the ferry is now that goes over to . . .
A: Around where the Golden Eagle ferry is yes.
Q: Yes. Now were you born then in this building?
A: Right in the building. In fact, we used to have these bedrooms in this area at that perticular
time and I was born in one of the rmms there.
Q: I see. What wag your mother's name?
A: She was a Narup, Caroline Narup.
Q: And was she from this area here?
A: She was born in this area, yes.
Q: What abut her family? Had they been here very long in the area?
A: Well, what I would call long. I don't know how long they'd been here before she came
here. But she was born in this area. They came up Iron1 the South I think. They must
have been Yankees they called them. I don't know what they meant by that particularly,
but . . -
Q: What was her first name?
A: Caroline.
Q: And how many brothers and sisters did your father have?
A: (pause) Gosh, I should lmk that up. I don't know really. 1 knew he had one - Pete
Wittrnond.
Q: Were there any that you knew, that you recall talking with, or , . .
A: No I didn't know them. They were dead when I grew up along then. I think they died
earlier.
Q: What about your mother's brothers and sisters? Do you recall any of them?
A: Yes I knew all of them pretty well. They had quite a number in the family. There was
probably seven or eight of them.
Q Were there any ones in particular that you associated with more closely than the others?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Really I never associated with any of them very closely.
Q: Where was their home? Was it here in Brussels also, or . . .
A: Well they lived south here. They had a farm down along the river and that's where
they were raised. I do recall we u d to visit them on the farm. i thought that was a
treat. On Sunday afternoons we'd take the team of horses and a farm wagon and go down
to their place and we thought that was something to get down and romp the farmland. Now
in those days I didn't have any farms. We got rid of ours here. We used to go down and
visit them. I can recall how there used to lx a spring near their home, no refrigeration in
those days at all, and have to have the milk and butter all cooled by spring water. And
there would be snakes around there at that particular time and I recall I'd be scared to
death of a snake. But it seemed like they didn't never bother anybody, and never - seemed
like the food always tasted so much better when we went down there to visit them.
Q: I see. (chuckles) Because it was a little bit different I guess.
A: Yes.
Q: Alright, Are there any of the uncles or aunta that you recall at all?
A: Oh yes. One of them married a doctor. Aunt Mary, she was a very vivacious
person. She lived here for quite a while. She stayed with my mother when she was here
at the hotel. And she met a doctor here who was practicing. They got married and they
- she's way up in the nineties, must be ninety-some-odd years old now. She's traveled all,
over the world. I hear from her once in a while yet. She's got several children that she
[thought] ought to become doctors too, professional people. One's a dentist, one's a doctor.
Q: Where does she live now?
A: Lake Charles, Louisiana.
Q: She really went south then.
A: Yes.
Q: Were there any others that you recall, any uncles?
A: Oh I recall Bill. He was a brother of hers, he was a . . . automobile dealer at that
time. 1 recall he had an old - the old wooden-wheeled automobile. It was when the first
cars came out, trucks rather, and then some of the newer model automobiles. He always
got a new car. And he was quite a squirt in those days.
Q: Where was his business located?
A: Well he had a tavern here in the building. He rented a building here from it - part
of this building over here and he run a saloon in it. It was called a saloon in those days,
had a saloon in the building. And I was about five, six, seven or eight years old I guess
during that period. And 1 remember a lot of instances where people would have their -
what do you call it? An old gentleman out here would come in here eveq morning with
a team of mules when I'd go to school and when I'd come home about three-thirty or four
o'clwk they'd still be tied up here to the hitching rack. And then about five o'clock he'd
get in his little buggy and the mules would go out of town at a gallop. That would happen
dmost every day invariably.
Q: Oh. (chuckles)
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: It's peculiar how you always remember some little incidents like that.
Q: Were any of your uncles or your father interested in politics b any extent?
A No, I - oh I think he was on the town board, and treasurer of different organizations
around here. He was a very religious sort of a person.
Q: What religion was that?
A: Catholic.
Q: Catholic, yes. Now you were born here. What are your first memories of this building
itself? Is there anything that stands out in your mind from, say, when you were two or
three years old?
A: I can remember from the beginning we used to do quite a general merchandise business
here years ago. And all the people would come around here, congregate in the
evenings. And they would play pinochle and that's about the only pastime you had around
here. They'd eat popcorn, have apples and drink cider and played pinochle, that was about
it. Nobody had any money. You didn't have any cash. The people had chickens and had
eggs and so forth. They used to buy all their groceries in that method. I know we used
to have rooms filled with cases of eggs that people would bring in. Now nobody around
does that anymore. They've made a production out of it now. If you're not in the chicken
business, why, you just don't keep any chickens anymore.
But I can recall how every winter we was hemmed in. You couldn't get out. You'd have
to buy enough merchandise around the first of December to hold you over to first of
March. We'd have storage space here filled with sacks of coffee and Aour and beans and
we used to get cod oil shipped in by barrels and all the necessities of life in those
days. We'd just have to have enough to carry us over until about the first of March when
they made the first trip with the bat. And consequently in between time all we talked
about was trying to find some way of getting out of here, getting a bridge. If we only had
a bridge we would h better off. And that was my ambition then when I kept growing up. 1
was always wanting to promote a bridge. Every winter we talked about it but then spring
would come along and nobody had any interest any more in it.
Q: I see. Wae there a ferry at that time when you were quite young?
A: Well there was an old ferry. You used to have to push it over by hand, ta start
with. And then they finally got a little motor boat and in later years a ski which was
tied up alongside of a boat and then they'd shove you over. But a lot of times, even when
I grew up - this is still in the later years - you can go down, well, if the man was there
and handy, he'd moss you. If he wasn't, you'd just wait until he got there. You couldn't
go any place.
Q: Where was this? to Missouri?
A: No that's where the free ferry was. We never thought of a way going across to Missouri
until later years. Then they finally - someone put a paddle-wheel boat down in that area
which is still operating, the same bat.
Q: Oh. So this went toward Grafton.
A: Grafton, yes.
Q: Did you have any chores, say, before you started to school?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Oh yes? when any of these people would stay overnight, We didn't have no central heating
or anything like that. And we'd have to - in the first place we had water. We was
about the first one that had any water in the area. Nobody had any water systems. We
had to pump it up in a tank upstairs and then it would wme down by force, down into the
rooms. So that would be a chore to pump this water up there every night after you came
back from school. And also we'd have to get enough kinding and oorneobs and - use for
kindling and start a fire in the morning. We used to have to see that we had enough of
that around in the morning to start a fire in all the rooms, where we had a stove in every
room so that it would be halfway warm in their room when they got up in the
morning. That was one of our chores-
Q: What did you burn? Coal or woad?
A: Mostly wood thbse days. In later years we'd burn coal.
Q: Are thete coal deposits in Calhoun County? Or did . . .
A: There is but they never materialized. They never made use of them. There's a lot of
coaI deposits around here but I guess it's lower grade and they can go out here and bug
it cheaper. There was one party in particular. He tried to promote it but he wasn't very
sumssful at it so he give it up. Since then nohody ever had an interest in trying to use
it commercially,
Q: When you were, say, four or five gears old what was the size of Brussels?
A: Abut the same size it is now.
Q: And that's about what?
A: About 199, they call it.
Q; Is that right? (chuckles) What do you recall of church activities at around that age?
A: Wekl all of the activities centered around the chvrch. The church would have church,
you know, during the evenings, during Lent, they'd have church on probably Wednesday
night and Friday nights here, Sunday nights. That's about the only activity there was
around town, to go to church.
Q: Is that the same church that's here now?
A: Same church that's here now yes.
Q: That's out on the west side of Brussels.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember any of the priests in those days?
A: Oh yes, Father Stengel, he was one of the old-timers here. He ruled with an iron hand.
Q: Oh?
A: We'd had a tavern up the street here and they used to come into town to drink and they'd
be drinking around the bar and the children would come over to church. (Iaughts) They'd
wait until the last minute, and he'd come in to preach and they weren't there, he'd go right
over to the tavern and bring them out.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I see. (chuckles)
A: Out of the tavern, he'd. . . . Then they passed a law, I remember when I was a kid. you
couldn't open until noon on Sundays. And it seemed like beer would taste better then
hcauw you couldn't have it. They'd all want to get in before nmn.
Q: (chuckles) Well. Was he connected - wah the school connected with the church then?
A: School connected with church. They had nuns teaching here then. I went to school at
that particular time. That's one thing, I owe a lot to them for the type of education you'd
get. Compared to what you get today, how strict they were on you. I remember we had
one of them in particular. She was from Germany. And she was here for years and years
and years. They commanded respect. You were afraid of them. They had control of
everything. I remember my mother and father wanted me to take music lessons. And I sure
as hell hated to go take lessons. I was the only one in town who ever took a damned music
lesion and I'd go up with that damned briefcase and I'd have to go to their sisters' - what
you'd call a sisters' house and I'd sit there an hour and practice music.
Q: What instrument were you . . .
A: Piano. And I used to hate that. But they wouId do that for little or nothing. I don't
think they were paid very much. But 1 often tell the story of when I got in politics and
I had an old truck driver who went out with me. He never took a lesson in his life and
he'd sit down and they'd say, "Play thi$ Jim," and Jim would play any damned thing he'd
want to play. And here Z took lessons for years and I couldn't play a damned thing.
Q: Well- (chuckles)
A: Well that's the reason I'm a promoter of trying to teach someone something they were
adapted for instead of just sending them to schd and teaching them something. I thought
it would be foolish to try to make something out of somebody who wasn't adapted for that
particular profession.
Q: What kind of schoolwork did you like in those days in grade school?
A: I was god in mathematics all of the time, and I . . .
Q: Hi.
(taping $topped for introductions, then resumed)
Q: Now we were talking about the school days. You say you liked mathematics?
A: Yes. I'm disgusted with the kids today. 1 go into n place and they've got to have one
of thw damned machines and - when thgy're even working here, I can go out here and
add it up quicker before they ever wen get started with their machines. One day 1 bought
a lot of tape at some place, and for only eight dollars and something. The guys they had
to get a machine out to figure the tax on it and, my God, I was in a hurry. I had this dl
figured out before they ever even got their machine yet. They've got to get a machine for
everything. We were taught we could add.
And then I used to like history. Had an old fellow who stayed here in later yenm who was
quite a historian. Charley Hagen, he worked for Big Bill Thompson. He's the assistant
prasecutor out of Chicago. He's quite a historian. He's always bringing up things about
history.
Q: You say he worked for Big Bill Thompson . , .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Yes.
Q: . . . in Chicago':
A: Yes.
Q: A Republican?
A: Yes he's a Republican.
Q: (chuckles) Were there any of the nuns that you were particularly associated with or
liked particularly?
A: Oh yes, several. I can't recall their names anymore. I remember one of them. When
they wanted to go anyplace, they'd always call me to take them different places you know
if they had anything t.a go. And I thought that was quite an honor you know. I always
remember, they had to b back before dark if they went anywhere. If you'd take a trip
anywhere they had ta be back. I remember one time we had an old Model T Ford and we
got stuck down here in the creek. We couldn't get through and here I was, getting dark
on us, and didn't have much lights on the old Model T anyway. It had one of them old
magneto lights yet on top of it. And here this nun - several nuns there was, and they were
all scared to death about what's going to happen if they didn't get home in time.
But were very thorough in their teaching. They were intere~sted in trying to teach you
something. They taught you self-discipline too. That's another thing, I think, that I attribute
- whether I'm successful or not in anything - but I think that helped out a whole
lot to be able ta discipline yourself. And I always recall what she used to sag about
saving. They used to be very economical. I remembr she was the one who taught me that
you could take a drip of water and let it drip from an eavesdrop long enough - and i had
an old rock out here alongside the building. And I could remember that too, because she
taught us that and explained it to us. And I could see this old rock there and the rock,
just drip, drip, long enough that it wore a Role in that rock. She said you could take that
same amount of water and throw it over at one time and it wouldn't have any effect. And
that's the way I explained to a lot of people who go out here and throw nloney away, if
they go out here and spend it at one time. Then [whetl] they get back to business, they're
real tight as hell. See, that doesn't bother them. But if you've got these little leaks continually,
they eventually get the best of you. And they'll break you. But if you just go out
and spend it at one time and then settle down hack and be yourself again and be economical,
why, it doesn't bother you too much. But if you constantly let these little things get to
you, it will eventually affect you.
Then the priests in those days were really strict too. You'd walk down the sidewalk here
and. my God, everybods: would take their hats off to him. NQW kids come up with a bicycle
and run him off the street now. That's just the differenw in the way things were years
and years ago.
Q: Father Stengel, was he connected with the school in the church?
A: Oh they ran the whale thing.
Q: And the principal?
A: They ran the whole complex. When they were a priest, they were boss over it. They
need to discipline, all the nuns had to do was call the priest over . . .
Q: Oh, I see.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: . . . and he took care of you.
And you didn't run home to mom and dad or mom and dad would send you rrjght back to
achool in them days. 1 remember one time I got smart with something. I don't know what
- I come home and, hell, my dad whipped me all the way back to schoo1,
Q: Oh? (chuckles)
A: Yes.
Q: Who was the disciplinarian in your family, your father or your mother?
A: Well, [it would] depend. If [it] was something -1 severe, my dad was. But ordinarily
my mother was.
Q: Were you rather unruly or did you get along pretty well?
A: Oh I got along pretty well, only - I can't mall anything particular. They usually let
me do whatever T - can't recall I ever done anything that they ever got me into any trouble
over.
Q: What about school extracurricular activities, like sports for example? Was there much
of that?
I
A: Yes. We used toplay baseball. Wedidn't havethefacilitiesyou have today. We'd just
have to play it out here in the street or we'd play - didn't have football then or basketball,
either one. We didn't know w bt that was. But baseball, we'd play baseball and in fact
then I formed a team here for years and managed a team here in the town. We used to
have an old open truck. I'd get all the boys on the back end of the truck. And we'd take
them to visit all of the towns across the river and in the area within thirty-five, forty
mjIe. We used ta think like going over to Foley, Missouri, and Winfield, that was quite a
trip. J would load them up in the batk end of the truck, they'd all ride, and they thought
that was a treat. 1 was - finance of the whole thing, I took care of the finances. And
like we had a local diamond, why, I would sell sonfections of different kinds and sodas and
soft drinks and things. And try to make that eome out of expenses to buy uniform8 and
different things for the beam.
Q: How old were you when . . .
A: Oh I was pretty young then. I got operating and trading around when I was pretty
young, when I was fifteen, sixteen years old. In fact I bought a truck one time when I was
only sixteen years old. And ordinarily you don't - [you're] not allowed to buy anything
when you're [not] of age. But the guy who sold it to me and I owed him three hundred
dollars in addition to it, And he just took my note on it and never even thought about
gettingmydd tosign itor anybodyelse. And . . .
Q: When you were, say, in the first, second, third grade when you first started to school,
were you helping out in the store here at that time?
A: No I didn't help out much then. First, second or third grade I didn't do much but go
[to school] - in later years, then, you put eggs in the cases and kind of see if there's same
rotten eggs you know. It would just become natural to you. You'd check them. I maan
usually a lot of people would try to fleece you on that and bring you in some old rotten
eggs they had. And you didn't have the mess that they have nowadays to detect them; had
to just be ;something that comes natural to you to detect that.
Q: How could you tell when an egg was bad?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Oh you could feel of it. It geb light and . . .
Q: I know I've seen them candle them.
A: Well that's what we did too, was candle them, that's right. But you could just about
feel one. Immediately you'd feel the touch of it, it tells the difference.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2
Q: What did you do with all of those eggsf
A: We would take them in to market. Years ago they had a market down on Third Street
in St. Louis. That's been revised all now. That's a complex down there and a hotel and
different things. They've moved it up north farther. But years ago it was down on Third
Street near the river and down an the levies,
Q: What was a trip to them like? What all kinds of thin* did you take in?
A: Well, early in the operation we used to *transfer it by boats, see. And then that was
a treat for us b take a trip to St. tauis. I remember that's when I went along with my
dad before I was really operating. And go to St. Louis to buy merchandise for your operation
here. The boat wouldn't charge you anything for the trip because you shipped all your
freight with then And that was just a fringe benefit I guess.
Q: Was this a steamboat?
A: A steamboat, yes. And that was a thrill of a life because the guys would have a hand
on the boat and havedinner and they'd haveabar on there and havedrinks. And everybody
thought that was - well that was a highlight of our social life here too, to get to ride the
boat into St. buis. We would go down on a Monday night and then come back on Saturday
night and stay over in St. Louis the rest of the time. Then my dad would do the buying
and different little things and then they'd ship it out.
Q: Where did you stay while you were there?
A: Oh them days we used to stay at some friends of ours that we associated with. Never
went to a hotel. You never had enough money to pay a hotel bill. I don't know why it
was. We just never went to a hotel.
Q: W bat was downtown St. Louis like in those days?
A: Well it's a lot different. You take Washington Avenue them days, it was - that was
a street, my God. There were all the treasures and merchants were up an Washington
Avenue. Now you drjve down there and it's just a shambles the way it looks to you. In
fact I was down there a month or so ago and I'm afraid to even get out of my car in a
lot of the places down there. 1 always take somebody with me, a bodyguard with me
now. But even later in life when I started to truck, truck our stuff into town, we used to
sleep out in the truck out on Third Street there. We wouldn't think a thing about nobody
bothering us at all.
Q: I'll be darned. So the area has kind of changed.
A: It sure has.
Q: Did they have any showboats tie up near here SQ that you could . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Oh yes. You'd have a showboat here, an excursion boat they'd call them. And that was
a quite a treat too. That would happen during the summer months. They would make a
periodic trip up here. Naturally they had ail the entertainments and different things on
the boat. But getting back to later years, when the automobiles came in - even this took
place even in the horse and buggy days. But people who had money [rode the showboatsl.
And naturally we didn't have any money. My dad lost a lot of money and we were poor
people when I was young. I had to quit school because we couldn't afford to pay the tuition
anymore. And I wuldn't do too much with this.
But a lot of them did. Like Bob Meyers down here who owned all of this land down in
this section. He had four or five thousand acres of land. And he entertained a lot of influential
people out of St. Louis. Like he'd had Madame Schuniann-Heink and Edna Ferber
and different ones like that. And the Moons and the Gardners, they'd all mme up here. To
begin with, when they had the real good buggy and - surrey they'd call it - a team of
horses, he'd meet them at this point over here at the first landing. And he'd get on the
boat. Then he and his group would ride this boat upsea to the curve in the county and
the river. And as he'd eome along and the boat would keep stopping at each landing and
he eould ride this boat for three or four hours and then they'd meet him over here, see. It
wouldn't be over three or four miles difference. Then they would get off about three o'clock
in the morning. And they'd had six hours on the boat, had a lot of fun, had music and drinks
and food, everything. That was the social life in the area at that particular time.
Then when the automobile came into effect, why then they had a chauffeur who would meet
them. That was easily done because the automobile can run - he'd just run from landing
to landing. By the time the boat lands, he'd be at the next landing before the boat got
there and he'd just keep - whenever he wanted to get off, he'd just get off and come back
home.
Q: But you didn't get involved . . .
A: But I didn't get involved in that because 1 couIdn't afford it then. 1 was just a poor boy
trying to make a buck then.
Q: Do you remember any of the particular shows on the showboat, do you recall any . . .
A: Not too much, no. We used to have a lot of fights. lt seemed like they would always
wind up in a fight every time.
Q: Did you get involved in many tights?
A: Oh, I used to like to fight a little bit. {chuckles) Tt seemed like that you grew up with
it. You'd take care of yourself, You didn't have no wall. You learned to take care of
yourself.
Q: Do you remember any particular individuaIs of the show people that came by?
A: Offhand I don't. I remember s lot of them but I just can't recall who they were. I
wasn't too much interested in that. I thought that was kind of fmlishness anyway. 1 was
more interested in making money and didn't care much about - just like these, what do
you call these carnivals and different things that used to come through town? I wasn't much
of a sucker for that for some reason or other. I figured they was a little smarter than you
were. And 1 didn't fall for all like a lot of people did in these small towns. These boy8
would come into town and they always had some gimmick or something and take all of your
money and then move out of town.
I remember we had one across the street over here at one time. I know we had three or
four different ones. They took all of the money from the people and then the people started
raising hell about it.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

They used to come in with the old patent medicine and they'd sell them and some barker
would come up there and he'd come up with some special liniment or something, I don't
know. I ahvays recall the time I had a fellow selling eyeglasses. And I was a kid then,
real young. And he stayed at the hotel and he needed somebody to ride along with him
and show him where people lived. He'd give me a few bucks a day and that was a lot of
money in them days to get a couple dollars a day. A lot of people worked for a dollar
then. I'd make two dollars. That was a .lolot of money. Just to show him where they
lived. Aed I always recaIled be went to one place and he was getting thirty-five dollars
I think or twenty-five for his glasses. And thew people didn't want to pay and he kept
coming down and coming down. He come down to nine dollars and ninty-five cents. And
he come back down and hell, he'd still made five dollars.
Q: (laughter) He did pretty well. What was your first venture into business?
A: In business? Well, buying this truck was the first thing I - things were pretty tough
for us. We didn't have much money. A lat of times we didn't have enough, hardly enough,
to eat. As I said, we was wealthy at one time, and then my dad had to sell all of his farms
out because he had signed so many notes and he had to make them good. He had to sell
this piece of property and that piece of property. In fact we was going to lose this building
one time for - the mortgage was fifteen hundred dollars on it at that time. Everybcdy
thought he was going to lose it. We used to kneel down before the lighted candle and pray
that the Lord would save our home. In fact I told that story one night. Do you care if I
go ahead and tell this?
Q: No, fine.
A: I was out campaigning one time in Adams County and I said I'd never go back in a bar
again on a rainy Saturday morning. It was early, about this time of the day, and I went
in and the place was filled with people. And [when] I got in there, I wished I'd have never
stopped. YOU could just feel the atmosphere. And so 1 always asked the bartender if it
was proper to buy a drink because in same places the people are insulted if you buy them
a drink. You know, they think this kind of over. They argue with something. They think
they're just as good as you are. They want to show that they've got just as much money
as you have. So I always asked the bartender if it was proper. Yea, he said it was okay,
so I then give him a drink. And here come two old fellows, pretty well loaded - ''You
actually make a million dollars in the legislature, aren't you?"
Q: Well.
A: And well T didn't know what to say because if you argue with them, you're going to get
into trouble if you're out there drinking. So I stood there a while and I decided to pass
it up and they kept raising hell about it. And finally I said, "Just where in the hell did
you get that idea?" And they said, "Oh your opponent was is here." That's the reason
they were drunk to begin with see. He'd been in there drunk. I said, "Well he didn't tell
you that quite right." I said, "You know, 1 had that million dolIars before I got into the
legislature." Well that would have been bragging. That wouldn't have been any good you
know, ao I had to recall real quick. And I said, "Boy but T can remember the time when
we used to kneel down before a lighted candle and pray that the Lord would save our
home." %fore I went out of there I had them all for me.
But that was sure a ticklish situation to get into. 1 always recall that. I never want to
get into a psitian like that again because I didn't know what the hell to say because if
I'd have argued with them I'd have gotten into a big argument with them. And this way
I let them gain their point and T went along with their idea and then brought up another
deal and before I went out there, why, they felt sorry for me.
Q: Well, (chuckles) Using a truism that actually . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Yes it really happened. This thing really happened. But then I bought this truck and
the guy, Frank Powers - he's atill living over - he often mentions it. I ajways tell him
he's a fellow that sure give me a start in life. And he let me have this truck just on my
own note of three hundred dollars. And I went out here and bought all of these damned
apples on the ground. I had to get all of the school kids after school to go out here and
peddle them. Nobody ever did that in those days. We'd take these apples - in them days
people left their orchards more grassy and it didn't hurt the apples as much. It didn't bruise
them any. But you still couldn't put them in a barrel. They couldn't seH drops. I'd take
them and get these kids to shine them up and we didn't have no apple brushes those days,
you got to do it by hand.
We'd take this truck and we'd run, in them days, all of this area - like St. Louis was never
expanded like it is now. You'd have the little settlements like St. Anne's and St. John's
and Carsonville and all those towns. They were just little towns they were, and they wasn't
connected with St. Louis like they are now. buntry people would move off the farm,
couldn't exist anymore and they went into the city to get a job. And they would be god
buyers. They were looking for something. You'd go to one of them and they were friendly
and they would call up every neighbor, "This man's got some apples here," and they'd buy
big quantities. Gosh, we a lot of times would make a hundred, a hundred and fifty dollars
a day, And, my God, that was money in those days.
I remember we made m much one time - we used to wear leather boots and leather jackets
md went down to the Jefferson Hotel. That was an elite place in St. Luis those days, We
decided we were going to stay there. And, hell, they didn't want us there. And [when] they
seen us come in, they upped the room, fifty dollars. But we didn't give a damn what they
charged, We were going to stay there. (laughter)
I kept doing that for years. I mean nobody else ever got the idea. And nobody else ever
peddled apples. They didn't know what that was, going from door to door like that. So
I often remember we got the market saturated in these little rural areas and went into St.
Louis proper. Then we'd have to climb the steps and then the people would - they wanted
to buy ten cents worth, fifteen cents worth, and, hell, 1 couldn't fool around with that. I
remember we had a half a load left one day and we pulled them up to Altan and took them
all and gave them ta the orphanage.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Rather than fool around trying to sell them. But these smaller towns, guys, people that
- see, they were used to country life yet. And they would buy five, ten bushel and make
apple butter or make appte sauce or store them in their basement or someplace. But the
people who lived in the city, they just didn't do that. They'd keep buying ten, fifteen cents
worth at a time and you couldn't fool around and sell them that way.
So, that put me in position to have a little money. I had a little cash and then 1 got trading
around, buying automobiles and getting in the automobile business. And I made a Tittle
money. I had cash when nobody else had any msh. And . . .
Q: Now let's see, this would have been what, about 1920 or 1921?
A: Well, ~ es, 1919,1920 and 1921, yes. I was pretty young then. I wasn't very old.
Q: You say you were trading in cars at that time?
A: Yes I bought cars. The Dodge dealer over here, I'd get two or three old used ears and
then trade them for a new one, then sell the new one and make some money on it. I could
always trade. Seemed like 1 was an adapted trader.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q WeH. Did you base that on the hotel here or , .
A: Well I don't know what it is. It was just kind of a natural instinct I guess. I remember
Dad didn't like that idea. You know, he had a price on something. We had a pair of shoes,
four ninety-five, he didn't care who it was, it was four ninety-five. To me, if you wouldn't
pay four ninety-five, if I could get you at four wventy-five, I'd sell it. But he didn't believe
in that idea. He didn't go along with that. He figured that was unfair to the other
fellow. He ought to gay the same price. With me if I could make adea1 and make a dime,
I was going to sell it.
And then I got amiated with some Jewish people Iater in life and I got n good education
with them from a merchandising standpoint. They know how to merchandise. They know
how to get money. I never had any financial backing and didn't know how to get any
money. Every time I hold a deal, why, I had to go out and see where I was going to get
the money. By the time I got the money, then the deal was gone. So I asgociated with
some of these Jewish friends of mine. They didn't have any money either. But hell they'd
always came up with it. They were sure of themaelves and it's - collateral, they said, hell,
[ifl they had the collateral they wouldn't need the money.
So 1 learned how they did it. I remember I went to a bank one time and I got - finally
got associated with the First National Bank in Alton. They got to liking me and that give
me a goad boost. I remember I wrote a check one time for eighty thousand dollars. And
1 didn't know I was going to buy anything. But I farmed - naturally, this was years
later. And they didn't say I didn't have eighty thou~nd there, they just said, "His check
never did go bat" And that was good enough. But they liked me and they told me if
I ever needed any money, they'd takecareof me. So . . .
Q: Well let's see now, how far did you go in grade xhml then?
A: Well I got to go to grade school hem, and then I went to Quincy College to school. And
went up there.
Q: Was that the equivalent of high school, or . . .
A: High school yea, an academic course I was taking there. It was with the idea that I
could be priest probably. You know, you always thought that was everybody's am bitian
around the area. If you could become a priest, why, that waa the main ambition of most
people.
Q: Did you have that ambition?
A: Oh, I kind of thought maybe, to begin with. But then in hter years I just found out
I wasn't cut out for a priest particularly.
Q: How did you happen to go to Quincy College then?
A: I think the priest who was here had went there and I noticed years later like the students
who went there were always from some town where the priest had previously went there,
like over in Germantown, Breese, Highland, all them areae. The priest who had established
there had went there and naturally he always sent quite a few students he recommended
[who lived] through the area.
Q: Now you say you had problems because of tuition here in grade school.
A: No, not grade school. That didn't cost much, maybe muple bucks, fifty cents a month
or something like that. That's Quincy College, ie what I'm talking about wbere I felt like
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

my motber had to scrape around here and couldn't even have enough and me going to ~hool.
That's the reason 1 quit.
Q: How long did you go up there?
A: I went there three and ahalf yeam I guess. Then Iquit
Q: What about your experiences there? Do you recall any particular . . .
A: Oh, yes I can remember looking through the window and thinking - [I would] see thirtyfive
cent in some restaurant and [say] 'What the - hell with it," and have a nice hamburger
and a lunch there for thirty-five cents and never had the thirty-five cents to buy
it. (chuckles) But - yes, I met a lot of boys there that later on T got acquainted with
them. I met them around the areas.
That's another thing 1 think that's helped me out s lot, that's the training you get
there. That's one of the best schools. If I had a boy, I'm sure I would want him to go
to school like that, It's probably different today. But those days it wasn't a GO-ed
school. And we'd have to get up every morning at rt quarter to six. You had to go to chapel
at six o'clock and then you'd have marching down to breakfast, and you ate it whether you
liked it or not. You'd eat whatever you ate. It taught you to get along with people because
you had to aswckte with all the boys there and then you had to study when you was
them You made good use of your time there. I will say that. It's , . .
Q Were there any particular instructors there that you . . .
A: Admired, or . . .
8: Right.
A: Well the answer is Big Ed there who - then there's Father Julinn there who was also
kind of an inspiration to you, he . . .
Q: In what way?
A: Oh just the way they managed the &air always. I liked the way he could handle
things. He was a good negotiator. I always liked the way he stayed calm all the time. My
problem was I'd get mad too quick. And I'd always have to train myself for something to
get away from that. The Jewish people told me one time, they aid, "Every time you get
mad you lose out on a deal or something!' They said, 'You should never get mad. kt
theotherguy get madand then youcanoutdo theminanything youdo." But . . .
Q: Who were those people?
A: What?
Q: Who were those people? You say the Jewish people. Who were . .
A: Max Gales was one of them. Gale, all the Gales, but Max Gale in particular. He and
I grew up together. We went and we were kids. He was about sixteen, seventeen when
I was and we - I started out when I owned this truck. And I'd buy - he at the same
time had a little hole in the wall in a store, buying wwnds and straw hats and different
things and I'd bring them up here and sell them. So finally gloves and things like that,
shoes, not shoes particularly but gloves and hats and things like that. So then we got in
the business bgether. We bought - had an automobile agency. We had a Hudson, Essex
automobile agency bgether at one time. Then we had some stores in St. Louis and then
he had a big store on Eighth and Franklin in St. Louis that he ran, And I always bought
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

a lot of merchandise from him because he bought things in big quantities and I could benefit
by taking them from him. He was an excellent buyer. I remember we'd buy ties that retailed
dollar and a half. Dollar and a half was a big price for a tie. Some big department
store would change managem and wanted to - this manager didn't like it because he just
didn't want to takeover what the other man had in the store, like Famous Barr or Stix or
one of them. We'd buy those things for ten cents apiece. And, oh, I could take them out
and sell them for dollar, dollar and a quarter, which was a big profit.
And Z learned to be a good buyer from - I'm a good buyer. I'm a damned poor
seller. That's the reason I haven't been too successful in the stock market. I become
attached to things tcx, much. If I could sell, if I'd had somebody who taught me to sell,
I'd been very successful financially. But I'm always getting ahold of something I don't want
to [sell]. I'm a collector. I want to keep it all.
But the Jewish fellows taught me how to buy. !l%ey said, "Never get excited wer a purchase,"
he says. "Tf you lose out, there will always be another me come around
t~rn~rrow." And that's the truth. I found out that happens all the time. Most people get
too emotional and they pay more than anything's worth. If they want it, they pay more
than they really anticipate on paying for it.
Q: So the Gales - and these people were from St. Louis.
A: St. Louis yes. He often told me - that taught me to be pretty broad-minded too about
- see, people, like German people here, used to hate the Jews. And he used to visit me
here, a poor boy who would come up here. And he's a poor boy too and sit around here,
and these Germans, some of these Germans, can be overbearing you know. Especially
during the war. See, we used to praise Germans and then they got - [we were] supposed
to be against Germany during the World War, I remember, at that time too. Then, nobody
was allowed to even speak German or pray German, you know.
Q (chuckles) Is that right. You say you weren't aliowed to - who . . .
A: Well, there was so much sentiment against it, Gosh, if they thought you was connected
with Germany at all in them days, why, you was ostracized, almost.
Q: Were there people in the community here that disliked the Germans because of that,
or...
A: Well there were Germans but they still had it in for Germany. I remember two old men
up here got warmed up by the whiskey - that's when I was real young. And they got in
a fight up here and pulled his whilers out. I always recall that. Gee, my God, how they
fought,
But these Jews, this Jewish fellow - they never did like Jews, They always said - these
Germans, see, that's how narrow people are, always Blame the Jews for the war. They said,
"The Jews make all of the money off of the war." And I remember this boy would visit
me. And these old Germans were just pretty cocky you know, loud-mouthed. And they'd
tell him about Jews making all the money, and - I can remember one time he was out
to my farm out here along the river. The reason he liked to visit me was that I never tried
to entertain him. You know, he could do what he wanted to. He'd come here and he could
do whatever he wanted to. I have a lot of people like that, likes to visit me on that account
because I don't go out of my way to entertain them at all. If they want to do this, they
do it. I don't say, "Let's eat now," or, "Go here" or "Go there." I just let them - and
they like that. They - you go out there and sit along the river for a couple hours, and
one day he had a pair of shoes on, which wasn't - pretty wore, yet they was
comfortable. And this German kind of made fun of his shoes. Well, hell, he only bought
about six, seven pair from - had some penitentiary make them up for him, you know, but
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

that's how narrow people are you know. They was kind of making fun d him because he
was a Jewish kid. But he was very successful also. He made a lot of money and he owned
the biggest stores in St. Louis for a while before he died.
In fact, I needed some money one time and that's the reason I had a warm spot in my heart
for the Jews. I had & take over some property and 1 didn't have the money to do it with,
and I called him one night. I couldn't get no money from the banks around here. That's
before I had any connection with the bank of AIton. They were going to 4 1 this place, the
farm over here. I had a second mortgage on it and the first mortgage was nine thousand
dollars and I didn't know where the hell to get nine tihausand dollars. And the sale was
at eleven o'clock. The mail come in here at nine-thirty. And 1 called him that evening and
that morning at nine-thirty I had a draft for that amount of money, nine thousand dollars
so I could buy that damned farm. No note ot anything from him. When you've got a friend
like that - it's pretty nice to have a fellow like that.
But he and I traveled a lot, along later years h, tagether. We'd ga on vacation and different
thin@. And when they were up here they would eat my f d and never complain about
it st all. If I had pork sausage - you know, being German you always had pork sausage
or something like that. But when I went down to their home, they adhered strictly to their
traits, whatever they . . .
Q: Kosher food.
A: That was it. And I remember traveling one time. His name was Gailvid. That really
wasn't his name. You know, he took that name he said because his brother went to school
and he was ao windy they just called him Gale. (laughter) So that's the reason they named
him. But he was 8 Russian Jew.
And we went to a place, I can't remember . . . it was up in north or south. And his wife
was kind of pretty. I always loved her, but she was MI damned particular about everything,
had to look at a room first. [It was] an elaborate place, and walked down tbis - I: showed
this place and she said, "Of course you understand we adhere to a selected clientele." That
meant they didn't - and that made him so damned mad. He &ayq "You know, lady, what.
isn't good enough for my brethren isn't good enough for me!' And he wouldn't stay there
for hell.
Q: I'll be darned. (chuckles)
A: Very touchy on that. Boy I remember we sent out some letters one time for a vacation
trip and some high dass places. I got some mail back and they said the same thing. Well
he pitched them right away and he didn't want them. They didn't know if he was Jewish
because his name was Gales, see. And really when you'd see him, he didn't look that
Jewish. Especially his wife didn't look Jewish, a real sharp-looking gal, and he didn't have
the characteristic of a Jew either too much. But I sure admit that I certainly learned a
lot from him, from the experience.
He also taught me one time. He says - and I proved that one to one of the legislators
one time - he said, "When you go to - never ask them about signing a check or cashing
a check, just start writing it at.'" So we were in California one time and some of the legislators
were with me. One of them had to fly back and make a s-h over here at Illinois
University. He didn't have that much money. And his wife was with him. I'd drove my
car, He wants to fly back to make tbis speech and he didn't have that much cash with
him, He says, "Have you got any money?" And I said, 'Yes I've got some money." I said,
"What's the matter?" He said, 'They wouldn't cash my check there at the desk." So I
said, "How much do you need?" Re said, "I need about three hundred." I juet goes up there
and starts writing a check and I never asked them to cash it. I just give them - three
hundred dollars. I said, 'That's the way you've got to cash a check."
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I see. (laughter)
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1
Q: When we stopped we were talking about your brothers. Which was the oldest?
A: Will was.
Q: And what did he do?
A: Well, be went b Gem City Business College and then he went with Pierce Qi1
Company. See, what you'd do here, you'd go get a business school and then you'd all go
someplace to work. But he was head of the Pierce Oil Company, and then they consolidated
with somebody else. He died rather young.
And the 0 th brother was in the shoe business in St. Louis.
Q: That was Fred.
A: Fred, and he moved to California then and went out there with his family, just lived
out in California.
Q: And what did Ed do?
A: Ed was with the Standard Oil Company. He . . .
Q; Standard Oil.
A: Yes he was with them for forty years I think.
Q: Oh. Was this in Alton or in . . .
A: St. Louis. He was head of the St. h is office.
8: I see. What do you remember about your brothers when you were, say, in grade
school? What kinds of things did you do to get he^?
A: Well I didn't associate too much with them. They were older than I was, see. About
ten years spread, [&ween me and] the youngest one. I really didn't have a brother to aesociate
with too much.
When they already were left and went to St. Louis to get a job, you know, I'd think, that's
what I always wanted to do. But then i kind of left here and T'd just stay here. It used
to be you thought this would be the worst thing you could do ia stay here, that the thing
to do was get a job some place.
And I remember I had a banker here who stayed here with us. He went to school up in
Quincy for a while and he came home and he got a job at a bank. He was making forty
dollars a month and I thought, geez, if I muld just be a banker, that would be my
ambition. And he was always dressed you know. He wore a high collar and a tie. Funny
how you see somebody like that and you think you want to copy them and idolize them
because you know, gosh, they were doing pretty good for themselves.
But 1 used to be envious of everybody else that left here. For years you'd struggle
here. You'd try to make a living. You couldn't hardly make much money out of it either,
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

you know. It wasn't too prosperous. And thought the smart person was the one that
always pulled out. Now everybody wants to come back here.
Q: Well, you were way ahead of the time then.
A: I guess so.
Q: Why did you want to stay here? Any particular reason?
A: Well, I just liked to trade. Here's what I found out earlier, that I could get everybdy
- meet the same, all of the type of people right here without me having to go out and meeting
them. They'd come here, and I could associate with them. And I didn't have to spend
a lot of money or time to do it. They came here and I could entertain them a lot cheaper
here than me taking them someplace else and entertain. That was the trouble with a lot
of my friends who made a lot of money. They were a high-salaried bracket, but when they
summed it up at the end, they didn't have nothing left because it cost them all of that to
live my lifestyle. They wanted to do what I did, but - I could do it so much cheaper, I
could entertain fifteen, twenty people here - furnish them drinks and dinners - probably
wouldn't cost me over fifty dollars. And they'd take them out and be out two or three hundred
dollars and everything else on top of it.
I can remember one friend of mine had a Christmas party. Well, gosh, he give a Christmas
party, I think it cost him two thousand dollars. And, gmh, I had the party here and 1 know
it didn't cost me no five hundred dollars and I entertained twice as many people as he did. I
don't waste all the time running around to people. I can visit with them here or while I'm
working. Where if I had another job, I couldn't see them at all. I usually be tied up with
that position. And then you'd have to see them after you're away from the job or you
wouldn't have contact with them.
Q: Did you get involved with the operation gf the sbre here, and the . . .
A: Oh yes, I took it over. My dad died - and we were broke. Everybody thought we was
going to go brake. I had done the only probate and they said it was going to be done
again. See, we owed everybody and everybody owed us. I had a little money from that
trucking deal I was telling you about. I had saved that on the side. And my credit was
goad, and I. , . , In fact, the fellow who had the mortgage on the place, hotel here, thought
he was going to own it. I went to every creditor that we had. And this Jewish friend of
mine helped me out there too because he told me if I needed some money he'd give me some
money to help out. And we went to every creditor and we told them that ii they wanted
their money, they could get it right now, if they'd want to discount the account. If they
wanted to file it, they could get their money eventudly. It would probably be solvent but
it - might have to wait a long time till they got it. And every one of them except Endimtt
Johnson Shoe and Gill, Ward and Hester - we owed them about a thousand or eleven hundred
dollam and they wouldn't discount at all. But everyone else - a lot of the fruit companies
in St. Louis, Long Bell Fruit - I remember them. They were some Italians, pretty
strong with the Mafia, I guess they were. And they wrote me a nice letter and said anything
T wanted, just get. And that was real nice of them to do that. And all it cost me was a
hundred dollars to probate the estate.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: After I paid everybody else off nobody could do a damned thing. I paid the guys who
had the mortgage off, I paid everybody else off, and nobody else could do a damned thing. So
they said that could never be done again. But I said it could be - anybody else could do
the same doggoned thing if they'd want to do it. But it takes a lot of work.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Then business, after Dad died, seemed like things picked up, business started booming. And
we'd start making a lot of money again. And all the kids, we'd need any money, we'd just
dabble in and take it. We'd run it as a community affair.
Q: 1'11 be darned.
A: Whatever we needed we'd take, and it was nobody's business. So then there was a fellow
seeing us making all this money and they got jealous of us, see, and they wanted to buy
us out. I didn't have nothing to show for what I had. I was just doing it just as a cornmunity
deal. And then one day I told my mother that - she kept saying this man wanted
to buy us out and we ought to sell it and things like that kind of thing. "Well, sell it then,
I don't care." She said, "Well, you sell it then." I really didn't want to sell it because we
had a gold mine, you know. We were young my sisters, all of us - we was doing
alright. We had everything we wanted and we lived pretty good you know. We knew what
living was. We knew how to spend money because we'd been around a little bit.
And one day he come over and 1 made a deal with him, see, and real quick. (snaps
fingers) And put up a thousand dollars apiece on the deal. Otherwise they said he'd have
backed out. And he took over the business. And I had to guarantee my mother so much
money, see, that she was going to get ao much because she wanted her money out of it, But
anything over it I got left. That's why I got hooked up with those second mortgages, see. T
had to take all those -nd mortgages on things, hfore this guy - well he couldn't back
out. He didn't want to lose his thousand dollars. Everybody advised him not to get in the
business because he was a farmer. He didn't know enough about business. And sure
enough, he was in business two years and lost everything he had.
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: And then the place was all run down and nothing here anymore. Oh, I had a doctor,
had a dentist and bfore that a lawyer - every professional that's staying here in the village,
see. And we was really doing a landlord business. And then when he got ahold of it, they
all pulled out, just left, and then we had the building. In the meantime I went to Colorado
Springe and got in the tourist business for a while out there.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: 1'11 be darned.
A: And that's what was my ambition, to stay out there then, to live out in Colorado
Springs. But I had all these second mortgam here and during the Depression days, things
were tough, and [I] come W, and so I had to get back in buaineas again. I took it -
window lights had blown out and the mattresses were all shot and I had to tear out the
whole thing, start all over again. And then it seemed like things started picking up again.
Q What year was it your father died?
A: Oh, in 1927 1 guess it waa, 1927.
Q: Just before the crash then so you had . . .
A: Yes - just getting right into the crash, see.
Q: Well that - to what do you attribute the pickup in business after that? Do you think
it was your business acumen then that . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well, I guess it was. I guess 1 just have enough Jewish instinct, association, with me
that I could deal. I know I didn't hwe any money and I used to bug a lot of stuff on e dit
just to get the cash flow, see. My credit was good and so I didn't - I'd buy a couple of
big truckIoads of feed, or we'd call it bran and chipped stuff in those days. You didn't have
like your hog feed today. And I'd deliver that to a customer and probably pay cash. And
I had thirty or sixty days - that would give me thirty or sixty days there . . .
A: . . . run-on, see and then we had a floating deal too on checks where you could have your
checks ten, twelve days. Now you can cash them overnight. You can't do that. But we had
the advantage in those days. I always recall I went in this - and then T changed my operation
one time. T started getting a lot of money on credit. See, you had - that's what
we did in business, the credit business. I'd go to the Stix dry goods company one time. And
I bought a slug of merchandise, a couple, three, four thousand dollars.
(to maid coming in room) And - oh, would you take them clothes upstairs for me? Oh,
my watch, thank you. (laughs) So he called me in and said - I always remember, a kid
and just scared to death you know because, hell, I didn't have no cash reserve or
nothing. And this credit man was a big man too. You'd go in there and talk to him and
he says, '+Wittmond," he says, "see you've been in the house today buying some more merchandise.
Now let me give you a little advice," he says. "No matter how good a businessman
you think you are, how good a business you've got, do enough credit business, you'll eventually
go broke."
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: And 1'11 always remember that. And I came back home and I thought, "I'm going to
change my . . ." So I started on a different operation. And I started putting it on a cash
basia X came down and that did put me in a better position. I lost a lot of business, but
T knew where I was at. When I went to bed at night, I knew whit I had was paid for and
didn't have a lot of worries on my hand. It uaed to be you owed everybody and everybcdy
owed you and half of them didn't pay. I had credit. We threw two ox three ledgers away
I guess. Years later we got a lot of money from people who owed us that sent us a check
later on that just morally they knew they'd owed us. But we wasn't going ta bother them
anymore. But they mailed me a check years and years later, went away and got a job someplace
and made some money.
Q: Well where did you learn your business like bookkeeping and that sort of thing? Did
you get that at Quincy College?
A: I got that at Quincy College, yes, that helped some. And f get that from just natural
instinct. Like there's a farmer out here that I associate with too, has ability. We were
just hlking about it. He had lunch here a minute ago. And I'd just sit down with
him. He [was] talking about some of these fellows who - they can't even . . .
(taping stopped to peet customers, then resumed)
Q: The farmer you say?
A: Oh he has that same trait. He can go out here and he can look at something and just
size it up. He don't need no pencil or paper to figure it up. I guess that's just a gift that
you have. Some people have it and mme don't.
Q: And then you cultivate it as you use it?
A: Yes I think that helps out a whole lot. I think that by practice - I know I can walk
into a place and - why this Jewish friend taught me that too because we used to go out
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

and buy a lot of - in them days, see, we had a bunch like you have now, a lot of people
going broke. Be a lot of places for sale, and we'd go to these stores and - I remember
one fellow had a store up here and gosh, be was way up in inventory. He thought he had
so much merchandise on hand and he was trying to mll it, and he couldn't sell it. So he
asked me and X called this fellow up. He and I went over, We were in there three hours,
and we come up with a figure, And he always taught me, he says, "Like if you inventory
straw hats," he said, "you might as well just put zero. They're not worth a damn in
December." And we come up with a figure that he would have taken - but he wanted to
rent the building and we didn't want the building. We just wanted to move all of the merchandiw
out. And finally he sold at our figure. And here he was fooling around for months
and months with a different figure. But we put that &re on, so we had to be somewhere
near right. He finally had to sell it for that.
But they just naturally have an ability to know what anything's worth. You can size up what
anything's . . .
Q: Was this outfit in St. Louis or . . .
A: No it was in one of these smaller towns around this area.
8: Here in Calhoun Cvunty.
A: Yes.
Q: Yes.
A: But we used to go to different places and buy stores in St. Louis and close them out and
we'd buy all the merchandise. I used to get a kick out of - I couldn't do that in my area
here because I didn't have that kind of business but he used to do w lot of advertising. He'd
go someplace and buy some well-named shoe, for in~tanee. They'd close them out. All they
had was the six's and seven's and eleven's and twelve's and he'd get them. A thirty-five
dollar shoe for five dollars and he'd sell them for five ninety-nine and he didn't say what
size he had. You'd come down there, and be had the shoes alright, but he wouldn't have
your gize, But he'd get you in the store, at least you'd buy something while you was in
there. I don't know what - they might get on you nowadays if you did that type of advertising,
but years ago you could do that.
Q: Well let's see, I've forgotten what the next question was right there. Oh, what - now
in 1927 what did this complex look like, the hotel?
A: hoked about the same, only we didn't have as many dining roams then. We only had
me main dining room. We didn? have people come in like we do now all during the
day. We'd serve a meal at noon and an evening meal. The people who sta3::led here regularly
and come to stay overnight, that's all we would serve. There was nobody else to
serve. Nobody came into town. And the local people didn't eat, they wouldn't eat
here. They'd go home and eat. That's unusual for people to go out and eat years ago. You
usually went home to eat.
You want me to add why things changed now or do you want to wait until later on that,?
$: No go ahead.
A: Well, see, that's the type of business we had at that particular time. And as 1 said previously
we'd sit around and talk about this bridge, that if we just had a bridge we could get
out of here. And so every year and every year from the time when I was young kid, we'd
hear that. And then I got grown up a little bit. I went to school and got away and 1 wanted
to go gome place. I wanted to go to ballgames, go to a show in St. Louie. Well we'd have
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

to stay all night to go to a show and have to stay at a hotel and it cast us five times as
mu& as anybody else to go out for an evening.
So 1 kind of got interested in politics. I was on the town board, and then I got to be state
central, not state central committeeman - what is the - aver the legislators, =me-
thing . . .
Q: The county, or . . .
A: No it's in the district. Same fellow come in here and was a stranger. And he got ahqld
of me one day and, "Why don't you run for thnt?" And sure enough, we went up to a rneeting
and I got elected. They put me on the ballot, I got elected. 'It has the right to tell
how many you should run in a district, I forget.
Q: Oh, oh I see, senatorial . . .
A: Senatorial committeeman, that's what it is, yes. So I got that job. So that wae my first
start in getting acquainted. He was out of Chieago. He was just loafing around and staying
down here a couple of weeks, and he got me permanently interested in it.
So then I thought, "Well, hell, I'm ping to get in politics and get a bridge through." That
was a main ambition, to get a bridge. So I started out and I didn't even know a committeeman
when I first started out. You know I didn't know the function of politics, didn't
know. So I startad out, and sure enough I got elected. The first time I didn't get elected. I
ran one time and I got beat by just a few votea. And in those days they would count you
out. See, I: wasn't in with the party, and in them days they could reverse the - like eightyseven,
they made it twenty-seven, just enough to hat me. But I didn't object because I was
glad to get out of it. I worked hard and I was busy and it didn't bother me any. I'd met
n lot of people and J thought it was a god education and I didn't bdk. And that was the
bed thing I ever done because then I had the backing of all of the politicians and then they
give me a job. They called me into SpriMeld and wanted to know if I'd want a job. And
I said, "Oh yes I want a job!' Although I was buay BB hell myself, they give me a job as
arbitrator for the Industrial Commission-
I had the best job in the state of Illinois. I had a court reporter sent down here every
Monday morning out of Chicago and I could operate from Brussels.
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: And thnt gave me quite an experience throughout the state. I traveled the whole state
that way. And . . .
Q: We'll want to talk some more about that. That was under Stsvenmn?
A: That was under Stevenson yes. But promoting this bridge - then I couldn't get a
bridge. I had several feasibility studies through and found out they couldn't get somebody,
but - the best education I got on that was riding with a fellow, riding down from
Chicago. Every time you attended any affair of any kind, and they heard about you being
from Calhoun hun
ty, they would .. .
(taping interrupted ta meet customers, then resumed
A: . . . tried t~ make your acquaintance because they figured you had something to do with
bonds. Those days, pushing these bonds must have been a kind of a god deal to make some
money off of them.
So this fellow was riding down from Chicago one day. He said, 'Wittrnond," he said, "hell,
the only way you'll ever get a bridge through there is to get this set up as a primary road
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

system." He said, "You've got to be connected with some prime ribbon," T found out later
he was right. He was the only fellow that I ever met that ever knew what he was really
talking shut in that setup. He said, "If you just get it designated as Route 66" - see,
66 used to be a main route from Chicago to St. buis. He said, "Get it designated as Alternate
66," he said, "then youY11 have a chance to get a bridge." And that was the best advice
I ever had.
Well, anyway it proved not feasible to build a bridge but it worked around, I got - by negotiating
around on some tax deals 1 got a free ferry put in down here. And then the business
has changed. All these fellows that used to have to stay here at night, they could get home
over the weekend, see. They didn4t have to stay here. They had the ferry operating and
free, and they didn't have to stay here oavernight so they drove back to Alton and St. Louis
and - but then I changed my business too, I quit that type of business. I catered to that,
then, I enlarged my dining room and got all of the St. Louis people coming up here now
see. And that's when I got into the restaurant business.
Q: How did you go about doing that? Did you advertise in St. huis, w what . . .
A: Never advertised, never did advertise. I never even run an ad in my own
newspaper. The reason I didn't advertise was this, that if people come in and we can't bke
care of them, they have a squawk. You advertise and you're not serving - a lot of times
we had to turn 80 many away, on Sunday especially. It made me feel bad because all I
did was stand there and just turn them away at the door. And if you advertise they would
have a good reason to complain. This way they couldn't complain about it.
Q: You really didn't need to evidently.
A: No it seemed like business just picked up, and word of mouth, and it just kept spreading
and spreading.
Q: Now actually I guess the restaurant part of it or the dining room part of it is just an
expansion of what you were doing . . .
A: That's right. Yes, that's right, same way.
Q: . . . in feeding the people when they lived here. So you have always served family-style.
A: Family-style dinner, we stay catered to that all of the time.
Q: Yes.
A: We never did go in for the sandwiches or fast food deal. We always stayed with the
dinner.
Q: How did you go about finding someone that could do the cooking that the people would
eat?
A: Well that would, 1 guess, to most people seem a difficult deal to find someone. But first
I had my folks, my sister who was brought up in here - she was a natural for it throughout
the years. And she still comes up here and bakes pies . . .
Q: Oh is that right?
A: . . . two days a week.
Q: 1'11 be darned.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: I guess that just becamea a knack for you. 1 can't get nobody else to do it, Nobody
else can make pies. People drive for miles and miles. In fact, they just come up here and
want to eat the pie and we tell them we won't serve the pie unless they eat the dinner. So
- but after gomeone's been here a while - I've got several people here now who - they
know how we want them served, and after they're here a while they could get the knack
of serving the same - it's the same routine, the same thing all of the time so they ought
to learn something about it.
Q: We were talking a little bit ago about you have simplified it rather than . . .
A: Well like cutting down on varieties Iike - like I told you before about the one poaition
of serving apple pie. We u~ed to have a variety of pies and give them a berry pie and a
cream pie and different kinds of pies. And one day I was real swamped here with
business. And the girl was standing there waiting, and I was working real hard myself helping
them out. She stood there and stood there waiting for these ladies to make up their
mind what type of pie they was going to order, and so she finally got the gies, She bringa
them in to them, six of them. Then one of them seen this pie and says, "Can I taste
that?" And, "Oh, that's so delicious. Will you - honey, will you please change mine for
. . * I>
Q: Something else. (chuckles)
A: Something else, and I wasn't in a very good humor anyway that afternoon and I decided
from then on, no more gies. T had the girls make a suggestion before they was through
eating now: "We have dessert. We have apple pie or sherbert ice cream or vanilla ice cream
or something like that, or angel food cake," so they don't take too much of a deekion to
make up their mind. Then that makes it quicker because we have tQ operate on fast turnover
on our table. We're limited on the number of tables and people waiting there see people
sitting there. That's the reason we always tell the people that if they want to visit and
they have people to visit them to come during the week or some evening . . .
Q: Oh.
A: . . . during the week and we don't care how much time they take.
But it's fun being in business like this. I like it because you meet real - a lot of nice
people. It's very seldom that we run into anything.
One day I had a lady waiting here, an instance you run into - she stood there. We take
so many reservations and after we think we've taken all we can take care of, we just tell
them, "Don't you come any more unless they take a chance." And some of them want to
come anyway. So, this particular lady stood right there at that door. Every time I'd bring
in somebody from the bar or someplace, she'd say, "We was here before they were, we was
here before they were." And finally I thought about what that Jewish friend taught me
alongtimeago - nevergetmad,you know. But I didn't bother her for alongtime.
And finally I brought somebody in and she said that again. I was exhausted anyway and
I said, "Lady," I said, "1 told you before when you first came out" - I told her il was going
to be a long wait and she didn't have no reservation and I said, "You know, I didn't ask
you to come here and I told you when you come here that it was going to be quite a long
wait." And after I said it, I could have bit my tongue and 1 thought how stupid I was to
argue around with some customer. So I seated them and finally 1 did something else. They
come back up and said, "You know," and ~ihe - come hack here and she was still standing
there where I met her. And I said, "You know that you're the most persistent person I ever
met." I said, "Just for that, I'm going ta wait on you myself." I took her in there and
gave her a table and I started waiting on her and got her set up.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

And so then I turned her over to one of the girls. Then I thought, "Well I'll just take her
picture." And I went in then and took her picture for the newspaper. And then I got real
busy and didn't even see her no more, And she come looking all around the building for
someone, wanted to see me, and before abe left she said, "You know 1 want to apologize
lor making an ass out of myself."
Q: Well T we. (laughter)
A: But most people are really nice about it, they . . .
Q: I was wondering, does anyone object to the standard fare? Do they ever raise any cain
about it, or . . .
A: Never, never have anybody, that never did any - mast of our people are just wanting
the chance to get served. One day a fellow come in here, he was a hotilhot operator. He
come in. I had a big list of reservations. He come in for dinner, he juat had some girl
he wanted to make an impression on you know, a big shot boy, because he come to a little
town you know. 1 add, "You got reservations?" "Reservations! You don't need reservations
in a hick town like this!"
Q: Well, (laughter) He learned 1 guess.
A: But otherwise most pple accept it. They don't mind waiting. When you hear them
compliment on their dinner and they're well satisfied so you don't mind it but . . .
Q: Weil let's see now, you also have the bar over there.
A: Bar, yes.
Q: Now that'a in the old dogrun Z understand.
A: That's in the old dogrun, that's right. That's where it used to be in.
Q: Well let's see, in 1927 that wouldn't have been a barroom at that time. That was prnbibition
still on.
A: That was a store then. That waa a store.
Q: Part of the store, now, I see.
A: Yes, we had a grocery store and now we have a big dry-goods store. We used to have
dress gods and all that stuff, dry goods of all kinds and shoes and overaIls. We used to
sell more damned overalls and work gloves, and . . .
Q: Now the far end then of the hotel, J notice there's a post office . . .
A: That's where we have the post office.
Q: . . . in the front of it.
A: We had the post office in part of the building here, in the main building. And then we
- when 1 sold out that time for two years I moved it away. The fellow didn't want it. And
so then 1 had to take the building back. I had to move the post office back. The town kind
of raised hell abut it for a while. I said, "Hell, I might as well have it on wheels." That's
where I tell all the young people to - they're always afraid that they're going to do a little
extra something to somebody. And I always said, "Don't worry about it. It will always
pay off in the long run,"
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

they havr now. Gosh, you didn't have no limit on them then. You'd just go out and kill
them. 1n fact, some of the people made a husiness out of them, and kill them and hen
ship them then to the market. But I never done that. Ke'd just kill ours for what
wanted to eat.
Q: When did you first have your own gun?
A: Oh gosh we learned to shoot real early. Real small, probat~l>- ta-elvc, ttm, i~velvc >-ears
old we had a gun.
Q: What hind of a gun dill you use, shotgun. or
A: Well I first had a rifle, then I got a single-barrel and then I got a douhle-barreled
shotgun. I got quite a gun collection now.
Q: Yes I notired quite a few out there
(taping stopped to attend customers, then resumed)
Q: You say you didn't get involved with the comrnerrial part of hunting then through hpre
but there were some that did.
;I: Oh yes.
too.
Some of them used to make a living out of it, hunting around here. Fishing
Q: How about trapping? Did you rver do much trapping in this area'!
A: Just a little, not much. I never did rare much for trapping. (;ot lo get up too carly
in the morning.
Q- Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there a lot of it that aent on here?
A: Oh yes. The! used to kill a lot of - that \\-as another thing. h lo1 of r~mployc~rs nradr
their $pending rnone)- in the ~vintertinle tra~qling.
Q: Did qou handle the furs here at the
1: I dint. Thew ras a man across the slrcct o\rr hrrc nhr, (lid that Ilr lived o\c.r thprr
and he hnu~ht furs.
Q 1 guess they'd ship then1 off to St. Louis
A: They shipped thrnr off right there.
Q: And (lo you like fishing? L)o you tlu a lot of fishing?
4: I did. I used tn - it depends on as~r,ciation. I can assot.i:it(. with 11collie and firh ;ind
enjoy it. :lnd then you gc.1 inv~,lvrtl \\-ith bu.;inesc jrt11,le nho :irt3 coo t~i~sy ~u fish an11 thrn
you get tr,o bus? tu fish. I think that hiis a lut to 11,) \vith \\-hiif yu~! ( I ~ I or ho\v \'.I
to it. It's your asaoriations nirh pcoplr anti n-hat thcl~ do.
rt>itt.t
I renirmher u-hen I i.:ilne bark fr11n1 Colorado Spring; I'or a nhilr. I could ro111(~ 111) 10 i~
stop sign that \voul~l s;~!, "1)on't Xalk." Yuu'll sland ihc,rra and nnit until the (l:i~ni!rd -ign
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q. (chuckles) We11 this kind of gave you an
A: Yes it pive me an idea
Q: . . . example of how to go aboul
A: Go up to people to get them to . . .
Q: Well did you get actively in support of any of these individuals at that time?
zI: I was always indirectll- trying to support of Siti even thouph he was a Republican because
I could get him on the phone an\-time I wanted to, and he would do it. I know one time
they needed some sand to build a school up here one time. \Ire couldn't get no sand. Hell,
Sid had one of them damned dredge boats up there anti he said, "Where do you want that
sand at?" He just ~mlls right out there. "Where do you ivanl it?" Another time I wanled
some out at my farm - see, I've got a farm out here on the Mississippi River. Hell, he
set the damned boat up there and you know he (lumped that sand right on out over there
along the bank for me.
Q: I'll be darned
.A: Those days a congressman roulti respon~l by quirk action. Th~y didn't take them forev~r
to do something.
Q: \That ahout local politics in the 1:130's'.' \Vere yon beginning to gel involved at all in
the school board?
ti: \Veil, no, Hardin preclorninantl~ look carGI of that up there. They always had their nren
and they were entrenched. 'v'v'ell they'd just switch offices from sheriff to \vhalever it
\vas . . .
Q: Treasurer
A: Tronsurer and 1-icr versa. And anybody down on the point her? npver had nruch a chance
to clvrr run. In fact. I \v;is the tirsl on(, that (,rcr had nerve enouph to venture out into
any ~~olitickin~. R~fo1.e that most prol)lt~ ntwr hear11 of ('alhoun ('ounty.
And that's the reason I was always very ~ndearrti lo a fellon- by the name of Phil Kyiier. I-lc
\{-as I'ete Green's big right-hand man. IIe was the head of all of lhe state police in thc
state uf Illinois. And he got drinking. He had a (lrinkin~ problem too later on. Rul when
I \vent to Sl)ringfielrl, tt-h!-, he 51-asn't ashamed of hr~inp from Calhoun County. Most people
were kind of ashamed to he from Calhoun (:ounty. You know ihey Ihought, gosh, you \{-ere
an asshole place in the country. Rut he aasn'l. Ile let then1 know I was from Calhoun
;in({ he was from Calhoun. And he did a lot of leg~vork for me up there. They jusl kept
him on up ihclre later on, just kind of put~lic rclation man.
So then he got let out altogether. Ant1 I go1 him a job ciotvn here on the ferry. I put that
ferry in and I got him a job down there. A lot of the Democrats really hated it, Imt I felt
I was iniiet~ted tu him. He was so nice to mrx when I was new at the game ant1 he knew
all the ins and outs. Ht) ha11 been in theril and out so often that he knew who \>-as whu.
Q: \Vhat [)art of Calhoun Counly was he from?
1: I Ie was from Kampsville
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: His wife was n quite a prominent person. She worked in one of the offices up there fur
somr of the executives. And she was a he:iutiful woman and she had a lot of in LIIJ
there. Her name Edna, Edna Ryder. She \\-as real prominent up there in Springlield.
Q: Had you knoivn him in here in . . .
A: I knew of him, not to associate with him. They always had money, the Ryders and the
Kamps and the Suters, see, the>- were working up in Kampsville. Kampsville - I'm in a
bank up there now, but them days, that was another foreign rountry to us. \Ve never got
to Kampsville.
Q: So you didn't know murh about the area up there then at all.
A: KO I didn't know anything much about that particular area
Q: Was Calhoun County more Democratic than Republican'?
A: It was. leaned a little bit that way, yes. A little hit morr 1)rmocratic than Repuhliran
Q: Did you sense any change in that balance in the 1930'sY You kno\\- some of the places
went - like, Chicago went Denrocratic in the 1930's because of the Rooscvc,lt . . .
A: Yes
Q: . . . and that sort of thing
.1: FVell that changed here too. A lot of Republicans vent and voted Ilemocratic just
because they got to say they were for it, for some program that came up or something. I
don't know why. I can't recall too much about those programs :mymore. I think - what
did Roosevelt do? Come up with some farm - federal gr:lnt where you could get the
money. And I remembrr I heard a lot of farmers s11e:ik of it Inter on that the)- got to save
their farm hy being ahle to get the monej- some place. hloratorium be declarrd ur
something. That ~vny nohudy could foreclose on thrtn or something like that.
Q: Bank closurrl
11: Yes
Q: What was the impact of the Drprrssion here? Llid J-ou see much difference in thc \ray
peoplr lived because of the Depressiun?
A: \Veil yes I guess, but the people in this area rcally didn't, nrver did, put on a hig shon.
or anything. So really I guess they'd just do it a littlc less. It hurt them morc from ~vhat
the!- - like some of thenr lost their homes, lost their farms morr than anything else. .Is
long as the>- rspan~letl and folIol\-ed the status ~UII yrru never got hurt too murh trerause,
hell, you had enuugh. Ahout all you riid \!-as eat, and yt311 al\\-a?.; saisetl enough to tio [hat
anyway. And so >-UII didn't need a lot of money to do any thin^ elsr with. As long as they
had a fev hogs an11 paill their taxes, that n-as about it. 1.1111 didn't havc to Xl-orry atlout ;in?-
thing else. It hurt people likr us - in>- dad - more than anyone elst!, hi~ing in husinrss
anti crediting people and hr rouldn't pal- and . . .
Q: Couldn't crrllect from then1
,A: That's right, ihat's right. And FVI. spe~~t 111011ey. See, I vent to school am1 \\.is hall sonre
expense rhrrr, ~vhere the)- didn't have that. I'd buy :I suit of clothes once in ;I while \\here
the rest of the guys didn't - hell, they ditln't need a suit of clothes.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: You sa) you were going to school.
A: That was at Quincy
4: Well that was years ago before that, but I rnean you got accustomed to li~ing a little
bit.
Q: I see. I wanted to ask a little more about Quincy Iligh School up there. LVhat kind of
plant did they ha\-el
A: Oh they had one of the best in the country at that time, the bop' school exclusivel)-. You
stayed right there. They had athletics and it was ;I modern school. It still is. That's one
of the best. If I had a youngater I believe I'd sureL put him there. They discipline. I think
the secret uf success - nearly everybod- I assoriate with went to Quincy Collcgr and turned
out successfully, done something for themselves. Whether they became a priest or they
went back into the business world or something, it was a good foundation for them.
Q: You lived in a dormitory there, did you?
A: In a dormitory
Q: What is it? Two men to a room or some thin^
A: Oh, hell, no. IVts h;ld about fifty in a roorn then,
Q: Oh is that right?
11: Big dormiti~ry there. I remember the first night I went up there. 1 didn't kno~r what
the hell was gning on, and away from home. They'd blacken your face you kno\v. ant1 the
next morning yoli'ii get up and your face was pluml~ hlack and you didn't knon it, see.
A: Ev'ryhotly's laughing at you. Or they'd dump -ou out of bed - a hunch of them \\.auld
sneak up some night and you had a rot. see, and they'd thron- you out of hed. Or they'd
have these - e~erybody had a soap dish, a metal soap dish, and put it around )-oo so in
the dark you couldn't see and J-ou'd kick those things and you'd wake everybody in the are21
up. And always something prank, you know. But you got used - you found out that
there's no use getting mad. you know. That's good training for you. Because you didn't
knon- \vhn ilid it. You might as well make the best of it.
Q: That was kind of a hazing sort of thing.
A: Hazing yes
Q 1'11 be darned
Well did you settle into the school then pretth readily')
A: Oh yes, oh yes.
Q: I suppose you had a homesick period
A: Oh yes you do
Q: Re talked a little hit about the instructors up there before. Which instructc~rs (lo you
recall as being the most outstanding?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well there's a fellow hy the name of Big Ed. He was kind of a great hig - the guy
seemed like he had the rule of the roost over there. ilnil then there was a [~ri~fessl>r. I
can't rememher [what] he was. He was more of a business teacher, the 1)usinvss vnrl of
it. Russo, I think it was. Professor Russo. I can't remember the first - and Father Fritz,
he.. .
But the>- always had control of you, believe me, and you respectell them. When they said
something that was it. They'd give a smoker for the hoys anti hoy, that - t c ~ tear11 you
how to make a cigar, you know.
Q: Oh, really? (laughter)
A. You thought that was something
Q: Yes I guess so. Ln high school days.
A: Yes. They would teach you how to smoke a cigar.
Q: You yet sick at it?
A: If you're going to smoke, they wtmteil you to smok~ a cigar. Better than rigarettes, I
suppose.
Q: Big Ell, you say he was outgoing JVhat d~d he tench'!
A: I can't recall anymore what Big Ed taught. 1Ie. . . . I know we had Big Ed and Rig
Fritz. We'd call him Big Fritz and Big Ed and Rig Fritz and Russo. Anil Father Julian n,as
administrator. He was a tough cookie. HP was really sorry as hell if he - never had a
smile on his face.
Q: Well. Were there any nuns involved?
A: Oh, oh no, no no. All men. And they h:uI :I n-all around the whole hlock and these
monks, you'd call them, they would take a walk every eveninl: and noulri he walking up and
down the sidewalks around and we had to stay inside. But there again I got lo plai hall
at school and . . .
Q: I was going to ask about sports. Did they have a . . .
.4: Oh yes, you hail hasehall and you had haskethall, you had hoxvling. \Ye hail all thar
there. I used to like to howl. I gor to be a pretty good howler.
Q: Diil they have a honling allcy ilu\vn here, or
1: Ye h a a - what do you call it'' \Ye had some kind of a - got it hatk ilo\\-n hrrr,
\ye ililln't hare the kind you had up there. We had one of those \\-it11 sm;rllt:r halls
or t ~ n . . .
and . . . kink^' r ~ i n
:I: Yes something likv that. Hare a bunch of straw stai:kcil up, just haling.
Q: Oh, it \\as ~iurkhall, wasn't it?
A: Yes som~thing like that
Q: Did you play haskethall while you were up there?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Sunir. yes, oh yes. I've got several l~ictures. I rrnlenibrr nhcn I n-as playing or1 u team
up thrrr. I h:ive . . .
(2: \Vho did Quinry Iligh School ur Quinry College l~lay'!
A: Oh we played a lot of the local - pl;~yrd the high schools ;iround. got in ton-n. they had
another high school. And ttien we playcii Xlilconil~ and wr 11layrd FI;lnnibal anti iiitfrrent
towns likr that. Martin fiinnn n-as In!- idol up th~irt,. They nanirrl ttir fi~lil 1111 tliisrr nl'lrr
hinr now 1 belirv~!. Martin Ilinan. I think hr got killed in sonrr kind of a freah acciii'nt
some place in ralifornia somewhrrr.
Q' \+'hat was so ciistinguished about him? \Vtiat . . .
.A: Oh hc was just good at liis work in the athlctiv field. .And it seerued likc he look an
interest in the boys in what he ilid. And in teml)rranirnt, it secmrd like hl, - 1 always
rementher he nevcr got rough or loud or tough with anyone. He had control in a meek
w:iy. St.ill he had rontrol of it.
Q: Well let's ser now, ahat year \\-as this tlial you \vent up there, ahout 1915, or sornpplarr
along in thrrr?
A: In 1916, 1917, l!IlX anil 1919, I guess. 11 \\-as sornewhrrr iili~ng tha~.
Q: \Vlii~t was it, a I'o11r-year term or two years'!
A: Yes. Four years.
Q: So actually about th~i tirne you finished up thrrc, World \Var I was ahout hreaking out
at t.hat time.
A: Yrs.
Q: Was there eit.7. any indication that you rnighl he draftrtl or go into LVorld \Var I'!
A: No I was too young. I c(iuIdn'~ get in. I wanted to get in \Vorld \Var 11. I had it set
up, I was going to get in that one. I a-as looking for excitement you kntnv. I wasn'~ rnarrierl
anti I was looking for something. And I had it all set up, I \\-as going to get a cornmission
and evrrything. Antl thrn they changt~rt - they had thr age limit rhanged . . .
Q: I'll he darned
A: And just 11y thirts- days ~hry rut me ou~. I3ut it ivould hare heen a good rsperirnr.c for
me. And 1 could have done some good hvcause I knca something about lh:ct kind of n-urk.
Q: Ilow did you go about gutting that srt up?
A: There was sorrir - I yucss you'd c:ill hi111 colonel or \\-hat 1l0 you call him'! Some tlig
official who come doivn ant1 i~tv 3 lot. And hr liked a little ivaitrrss \vi. had herr rval
weI1. He was wanting to send her to srhool. A hell or 3 nice guy. And I got lo talking
to him one day and I wanted to (lo it and he's the one a.110 set it all up I'or mu.
Q: Oh is that right? (chu~.klesi 1'11 1,e darned
A: Yes.
Q: Whvrv was he assigned? Thrre in St. I,ouis?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well I don't knor~ where he was assigned. He was fruni Quincy at that timc. IIe iras
out of Quincy.
Q' Must ha\e been the Corps of Enginrrrs then
A: I can't recall anymore. Colonel somebody - he's a colonel. I rmmenrbrr that
hecause . .
Q: So you were just the wrong age for both of thr wars then?
21: Yes. Both the wars yes. I rvns wanting to get in but I was always looking for
sonrething. I thought I would like to get into things. I wanted to he a part of it. I thought
it would be a real good education for ttre to get around to learn so~nething. t~ut I nvver pot
in.
Q: Well let's see now you graduated - nhat year did >ou graduate from Quinry College'.'
A: I didn't get to graduate. I had to quit school. IvIy dad, couldn't afford to let nrr pu
anymore. I would have graduated I guess in another year, or half a year. And things got
so tough I start peddling apples then. In fact, I was peddlinp apples before then, hut 1 got
into this business, then took it over.
Q: Yes vou \rent into that. That xas \rhrre you pitked up the apples. he grounri al~ples'!
h: Yes, and sold therrr.
Q: These, I guess you'd call theni political activities - dill you helong ti, the sihool h(1a1.d
here at one tirne?
A: Belongrd at one tirne yes
Q: Hen did you come to get on the school hoard'
A: Well, until later years we didn't have a schuol hoard here. All we h;id was a 1);lrorhial
school, which war really rhe main school. The others was littir country schools. )ou know
they had eighteen, twenty pupils to a schoi~l. Priest herr rras rral activc in thr sthool.

Q: LVell hou did he po about getting the support?
A: How he did?
Q: Yes.
.4: LVell he picked his men. He alsays pirked out the opposite faith on his school board.
see. .And then he had control vf it anyxv:~>-. And he could get thenr to do nhatcver hr
wanted to, su then he was a pretty good politirian hinrself.
Q: \$-ell let's see, 1 don't quite understand nun-. LYas there a rrgular nonparuchial schools
at that tinrr also?
A: But they weren't set up like the! ar? today. \Ye just had a school - we had one m;u:
mas elected on some little board or sunlething. I can't recall rnuch :ibout it. There wasn't
nu~ch to art - that didn't amount to an)-thing. You \verrn't considerrd wry imliortant on
that board until n-is got this operation. It was really nnt considered to he in any official capacity
on the school.
Q: IYhvn (lid you get inrolrcll nith it'.'
A: e l 1 seen the n~c~ssity, ~IIII- hhadirapprrl xvc xvere when I n.;~.; to go lo school. and
1 kind of wanted t11r rest of the people here, the younger people, to have a better chance
to go to school than 1 had. At least to get a high school education Irecause aroun(1 here
it's difficult to go out here an11 get a job. You know. that's the first thing they, in later
yrars, they ask you, if you xvenl to high school. If you iliiin't have a high srhool, you couldn't
get a jot).
So then ar hati ;I hart1 time. \Ye hat1 to finance this too oursrlvvs. We sold some 11onds
kind 1 renieniber huying sonip or the bontis. ant1 there n-as a lot of jr;ilousy then 1)erause
of the hanks here an11 Harrlin up - H;irtiin Rank (li~ln't lhink they were worth anything
i~rrausr they didn't haw a rntirrg. N:iturall) y1,11 cr,ulrln't get a rating on anything. I know
one Iinlr I ~~-;intcri to niakr a li,;,n i)n the111 onw. Sotrir of thcnl, nrellrd sonic nirllrq. An11
rrird to us

A: Oh no, no they still got it here. They're using the whole thing themselves no\v. There's
a grade school with it, Catholic grade school. And they have a puhlic pr;lrl~> srhr1111 here
too. They've consolidated. Now naturally they gotten more pupils in hot11 of
them. The>-'re larger. They bus them in here now. 1,ittlr schools were all situated all over
the area, they have them in this area now by bus.
Q: Do they have a single bus system? Or is it
A: They've got it set up, it's a dual deal. They'd pick up both students. I don't ]\no\\- \vhat's
up about it now. The)- have a change every once in a while when the laws - th~~y'v~~
got
to abide by so many of these laws. You can't run it the way you want to run it yoursclf
now. They used to run - I always told them to do it. I'd offer to pay the hill and that's
where we used to have some difficulty.
But they was always wanted to he accredited so they could go to the university or go
someplace. But I always maintained that, hell, if you didn't have it, you didn't have it anyway
and all your damned papers didn't amount to anything Rut that was proper to have
it that way. And so they wanted to get credit, why - and state aid - why, you had to
abide hy all those rules. And it's turned out to be costly now.
Q: Yes sir. How long were you on the school hoard?
A: Well, a couple terms. I found nut it was a disadvantage to he in t~usiness and heing
on the school board. So I got off of it.
Q: What kind of disadvantage then?
.4: Oh, you always run into controversies in :my uf these little - if you !van( to be popular
or anything you don't want to get on t1111se thinps, any type of a board. road district or
any little kind of job. Gnless you just \\-ant to make a lot of sacrilices yourself. You're
got to make a decision and every time you make a decision you're going to n1:rke snnlehoily
mad one way or the other.
Q: What were some of the other decisions that ramp up while you were on the hoard?
A: Oh, naturally people in those days \\-ere clannish and religious you know, \\hat tlo you
call that over that now? I remember we'd fight the kids who would come from - Catholicpublic
school - we'd have a fight with them every night you know. And so later years 1
got away and associated with a lot of other people, and found out that - see, that heing
Germans we thought, well, we were just Germans, we were the most important people in
the world you know. Found out Jews were just as nice. Found out they were just nice
people. And the hlacks and anyone else. But when I came back home, and I hati heen away
a while, school and places, and one day at the bar then I often met one of other rrligions,
anti I said, "That's funny. When I was a kid they used to tell us that these people wouldn't
go to heaven. We was the nnlk- nnes going to go to heaven." Ile said, "You knobv, that's
a funny damned thing; the> told us that same goddamned thing."
Q: Yes. irhucklesr When did you set up the har over there?
4: l)h we always had a liar here. Ye:lrs hefore they - prohibition days, ant1 ~hrn the)
closed it up see.
Q. Yes
.4: .4nrl in l!I:iti when prohihition - \vhen it was voted in again, ~ hy, w-c t~ouglit it up again.
Q: Dirl you have a pretty good crowd there back in the 1930's and 1930's?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Oh yes sure, they used to dl, a lot of business here in those days
Q: One of the social centers of the village
A: Oh yes that's right.
Q: When did you yet involved with the trusteeship of the villaye?
.A: Oh that's when I ycrt the - prior to the - I hat1 to yet off of there on account i~f t~cing
in the liiluur business see.
Q: Oh I'll 1)~. darned. (chuckles)
A: Other\vise thry wanted me to be mayor, see, at that time. But I had a little contafls
outside and I got out a little more and I thought I'd hr the right men for the job. Rut
I couldn't he mayor and hold a liquor license.
(3 Oh'' I'll t~e darned. What camr up nhen you were on the boartl of trustrrs"
A: Oh we never had anything particular. That \\.;is just about the routine dral. You'ti
visit and get - I think xx-e got tn,o dollars a mceting or sc~~nnething like that, ihal's ahout
all there was. ilnii somrbody'd want a drain or a sewer or son~ething 11-ith a drive\\-ay and
there was nothing. Hall to build a few sidewalks and that's ahout the extent of that, there
was no accidents like it is nnw. Yon they've always got people complaining about this or
that or . . .
Q: IIow did you go ahi,ut keeping up the streets then?
A: Oh we did it by hand lahi~r. We just went out and cut thr weeds with this little
scythe. And scoo[r to shovel snow. we (lid a better job than thry do now. We'd al\va)-s h:ive
the snow off the sidewalk from her? to the church. We always had a sidr~valk all of tht,
way down this part anti then to the church. Then we had a hank in town. They'd always
ha\-^, the sidewalk cleared and peoplc'il grt out and cleared their own in front of itnrir
w:ilks. Hut now, hell they could care less. They just let it on there and nobody thinks about
getting ahold of a shovel anymore.
Q: I'll be darnrd. And you maintained the streets that way, a1 thr
.4: Well I used to do all nly own streets, yes
Q: Oh, is that right'!
A: Sure. I hail :i hard road in front of my place before anybody ever thought ahout a hard
road because I kcl~t min'. H:ul oil here anyway from the filling station, saved ihe oil ant1
just kept pourinrr it on thc highway, which would be against the law now. Somebody would
sue you if you had that. But those days, why, we'd settle the dust. In thr wintrrtimr it
stayed, it didn't gel mudd,. That's all that is out there now is just :i solitl mass of oil and
dirt, and pound it to make it solitl and waterproofed.
Q: I'll be darned. \Veil then - let's see, hack in the 1940's now, did you beco~r~e the public
administrator in thc carly 1940's?
ri Yes that's right, I was puhliv administrator then
Q: What docs that amount to?
A: Oh that's your handling of the estates wherr they tlon't desicnate anybody in their
will. And I hail a fen of them.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Did they come up very often?
A: Not too often no. Not anymore, not like they used to. Years ago they did hecause people
didn't make wills and wasn't conscious of it like they are now. Noiv all the banks and, well,
just everybody advertises the fact that you should have a will and have something settled
before you die. But in that day people didn't think about those things at all. They didn't
give it consideration and so you didn't handle big estates because there wasn't any too much,
there wasn't any big estates, mostly small ones.
Q: How did you come to get that position?
A: Oh I guess that the)- thought I - guess they assumed that I was capahle of handling
- attorneys in Hardin thought that. That was the county seat and they wanted somebody
I guess who had a little business ability. Should have some, you know, if you're going to
handle somebody else's financial affairs you should have some ahility towards that end. I
guess that's ahout it. They asked me one time to run and I ran.
Q: Well was it an elective position?
A: I was either elected or appointed, one or the other, I can't recall
Q: Seems to me it was appointed hy the governor,
A: It could be appointed I think. Probably could have been appointed. I forget, hut
Q: Now that was a county-wide
A
Yes, it was county-wide you know
Q: Well you don't recall then how you got the position or how you
A: All I do know that the attorneys had something to do with it. Rut otherwise I can't recall
much about it. You know I remember Rill Cox and other men were saying - even wh~n
I was younger and they were all older people, I was friendly toward the attorneys. I never
did a lot of business \\-it11 them. We used to stop and - remember when I'd go somrxhere
I enjoyed talking to them hecause they were well-read and kept up on things, especially on(,
in particular. IIe read a lot. Come hy his place two or three o'clock in the n~orning, you
know, I'd he on the way home froni snmeplart.. Even in later years when I r;ime home from
Springfield, I'd see his light and I'd stop in and then we'd discuss things n d I liked to
discuss things with hini because 11r was alert. IIe didn't have to look at a ~IIJ~J~ r~r s~,nicttrin!:
to come up with it. He knea it. I \\-as never no detail man myself. I \\-anted to do solnrthing
faster than that. And I could learn a lot from him because he read an11 I didn't have
to read it. I could usually get it from him. I wouldn't take time to . . .
Q: Who was that?
A: That was fellow the name of Rill Cox. IIe

ha\.? to come hc,ll:r to t'3t or sonietliirlg. It \\.as Lliv i~nly pl:ir(' to rat. :In(] so if tho. harl
any huiinrss in this are:,, thuy'ci all\-ays stop hrrr. S(I I i~nligine lh:?t hcl~red somr i't111: lire
to make contact nith all iht, ~lilTerrntypr 01' ~~eopl~ that I . . .
Q: rlid you haw niilch ocrasion to ~ I 1111 I to thr county seat'?
A: \Vull nrbt ti111 n~nch, no.
Q: Dill yuu go up for ally ruurt actions ur anything'
:I: Oh I nas on jury at 11iITrrent tiiiics. I always re~r:emt~t,r \vhc>n I n;~s a prctty young
kid I got on that. I gutlas it aas ibtleral jury. granrl jury, ant1 it n-as Springfirld. I tho~~xhl
that was (jliitt' a thrill. But . .
Q: In Springfield you say.
A. Yrs, in Slrrinytirld
Q: Do you re~~ielr~hrr any of' the vases that you Ilrard?
Ll. Nu I can't recall. They had onr or t\v

Q: 1 suppose you went up by train. up and hack
A: Oh yes.
Q: IVhat did J-ou do, go over to Altrjn
Q: . . . to catch the
A: . . . to catch the train
Q: Was the train running from (;r:rfton to Alton at that time?
A: Yes
Q. So that you really wrnt to Grafton and got on . . .
A: To Grafton to catch the train and go to Altc~n and all transfer
Q: Could you describe a train trip to Springfield?
A: Oh, naturally we didn't travel trains verb- much. A lot of people lived here for life and
never got on a train. It was something. It was kind of an experience for us doxvn
hrre. You know. I always recall ahout that train trip, this train from here to Grafton \ve
had, but I don't know what the name of it \\-as. [It xvas] a spur off of one uf the lines anti
it was locally controlled pretty well by some influential peopl~ around here hrcause ihry
could call up and if they \\-anted to wait an hour, hold it up fnr an hour thcl.~,. tl~c! could
call up and hold the train up
Q: Yes, you mentionrd that. (chuckles) Non that ran from Graf~i~n on il

Anii the Eagles anif the Elks, I had a lot of friends in Alton and I joinrtl over at
Alton. Alton was quite active at thc time. .And a lot of influential people belonged to thc
Eagles - nr not the Eagles, the Elks. Anit I kind of iranted to helong to it too. I always
rememher one fcllouv I-ho I kinti of ailmired. Rut ht, h;qli~tme(t to he in the liquor husiness
and thry blackballed him, tvouldn't lrl him in. I roul,l never stand Lhat Rut I joinrd over
at Alton because I had some relatives li\.eil in Alton. And .Allon was close to us. \Ye went
to Alton a lot.
Q: 110% oftrn would you attend the n~ectings over thrrr? (Jncr '1 rnonth, or
A: Oh, sre, I trucked in St. Louis. I'd go to St. 1,ouis and I could just make it all at onr
time. I'd probably stop by every time 1 went to St. I,ouis, I'd stop in u11 thcrc. It was a
convenience for me. And met a lot of prople in these organiz;ttions. thr Eagles
especially. And the Elks and I joinrd the Moose later on over here at Pittsfield hrcause
I owned land up there and evenings. I didn't have no place to go and I'd go out.
Q: When did you procure your I:ln,l :lround Pittsfirld?
A: Pittsfield, in 1910 1 guess it was or . . . either in 1945 to the 1!150's, in that arra, in that
time.
Q: Now you say you joinrd the Knights of Colu~nhus up thrrr.
At that time was it?
A: No I joined the Knights of Colunibus a long time heforr that. That !\-as the only place
they had an organization in this area was Pittsfield. It srcmed likr they took in this area.
Q Did ~ o go u to meetings up thrre verb often?
A: Not tuo often no. They'd ha1.e their monthly, or sometimes, affair, you'd attend that but
nothing regular. See, Pittsfield was so darrlned far aw:q frorn hrrr, that took a 111ng ti~nr. I
nrver went to Pittsfield until I got in politics. Even then 1 always belonged to the Knights
of (:i~luml)us. But as far as Fittsfield, it was a foreign country to us when I first ucnt to
Pittsfield.
Q. 1Iow did you rome to go to Pittsfirltl?
A: Well I had to go there on nrrount of - when I was in politics
Q: Oh I see.
A: Or you - you rrlean why I helonged
Q: Initially kou said hack in the early 1940's here
A: WeII, for your Knights of Columbus, this was part or thrir area for thr Knights of
Coiumhus.
Q: So your interest
A: I)o\+n in Calhoun County.
Q: Your int~,~.est there reall? started with the Knights of Columbus.
A: Well no, not particular. It's the only placc I hail to join (.he Knights. If I was going
1.0 join, that was it. That's right hrfore I ever had any interest in l'ittsfield and so I didn't
even know anyhody there at all.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Was there any Knights of Columbus activity here at all?
A No. It seemed like the priests - this one priest we'd have adrocales it and the next
one doesn't so . . .
Q: Well edently then in the late 1930's you became interested up in the Pittsfield
area? How did you rome to . . .
A: \Veil the first farm I bought, I just by chance - I \vas out campaigning ant1 it went
so cheap I just bought it. You know, I could hare made twenty thousan(l dollars that night
when I come home. And 1 just kept it. And then I kept buying land and that's horn- it
goes.
Q: Llid you rent it out then or did you
A. I hired men to run it for me for years. I wasn't a farmer. I had so many other interests
that I Anally decided to rent it all out, discontinue the help.
Q: Hou. do you get on a senatorial committee'? Was it election'!
A: Yes. You run on that
Q: When did you do that?
A: That was in the 1940's. I got started that way with this feIlo\\. Charlie Hayen, lhat
we mentioned before. He was always interested in politics. And some friend of his was risiting
him from Chicago. He mas kind of a behinti-the-scene man and I nrasn'1 familiar with
senatorial co~nmittee. I didn't know how to - "Get on it." be says. Tbere (vasn't murh
opposition to it anyway. So I ran and got elected and I remernher just - 1 can'^ recall
his name any longer. He's dead, now, hut he stayed around here a fe\v months. Then he
left and never did came hack any longer. He went to our organizatifrn meeling. And he
knew more about this setup and huw things operate than anybody else, and he read ~hrm
to us. This fellow's dead. He was from Chicago, see.
Q: I see
-4: I guess up there that job is really something. 1 think it's a payoff j11t1 up there. Down
here, well, they never knew what was a payoff.
Q: \Veil. (chuckles) What u-as the primary funclion of the com~ni:tee'l
A: Well you could tell how Inany could run see
Q: Yes.
A: These guys give you enough money, you'd say, "Okay let's only lvt one run," why, he's
sure of election. He didn't hare any opposition. Rut don.n in this :LI.C;I, \rhy, not~o(iy ewr
olfered you anything.
Q: Well what n-as the decision generally here, fur i\vo to run?
.I: You'd run two and let it on ihrir own. They come up with that idea.
Q: Did anyone ever approach y(~u to see if they coul(l get it lo he only one?
A: I can't recall if they e\.er did. h lot of times I had it in mind, I thought thal a-auld
be a good idea, but naturally nercr [lid. Nobody else ever ~hought about it. I don't think
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

half of the peul,lr never elen knrw what thr oRcr was and knew what the purpose of thc
office is.
Q: Hun- long dirl ~ o stay u with that committee?
A: I stayed on that several terms, I don't know, and then that's when I ran myself
Q: How about the Illinois Farm Bureau? When did you join the Farm Bureau?
A: Oh, I joined that way hack. It used to have its advantages. If you didn't brlong to the
bureau you couldn't huy a lot of things. See, if you wasn't a memher they wouldn't sell
you things.
Q: Oh I see.
.A: I was in the farming business. I needed a lot of things, like baskets an11 it wasn't as
convenient as today to buy merchandising in then1 days as il is now, you onll- had a few
people in the husiness. And then they used to be real competitive then in price too. But
now it seems like a lot of the individuals sell cheaper than thc Farm Bureau does.
(taping stopped for telephone conLrrsation, then resulned)
Q: %'e were talking ahout the Farm Bureau. You say the farm service agencies are not
competitive anymore with . . .
A: Not like they was years ago. No you've got too many other individuals who own their
branches too. and I guess they can really operate. Prohably better management than thr
Farm Bureau does. In fact you yet your fertilizers a lot cheaper from some of the otht'r
people than you can from farm organizations. And a lot of other merchandise that they
have. But they have some advantages I guess. And they sell this insurance and seems to
be a pretty good insurance. But being in the newspaper business I tried to divide rny insurance
up with a lot of different people so they'll adverlisr in the newspaper.
Q. \+'ell then did you rver aspire to oKce in the Farm Bure:~ul
Q: Diri they have an organization here so that
A: Years ago they had an organization hut it was run by one man, Henry Iiauyh. IIe was
quite an operator. But they thought later on that he was operating too much for his own
interests and they finally got rid of him. And then he started his own businrss and he reall>give
them competition, he had his own husiness. "ind he was a good oprrator. IIe could
sell cheaper than they did.
Q: So thvy didn't have regular organizational meetings then normally
11: KO. And after he left they had a hard time yettiny along because they didn't hale the
management, see. He ran the whoIe show. Then when something canre - I can't ~.et.all the
drtails of it anymore. But he was wrong and they were wrong But any!v:iy he rontinueil
in husiness and it seemed like he did all thr husiness in the county in that rrsprct, thr hig
end of it you know. Now they're pretty well set up agzain now, consolidated with Jersey
County, they have the two counties together.
Q: \Then did you decide to run for the house of representatives?
A: Oh I guess that was in the 195OSs, in 1950 I imagine, around that time. We were sitting
around here and always yriping about couldn't get out of here and we wasn't ci~tting no
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

oads. Everybody else mas hot we couldn't gel nothing dune in this area. Naturally I had
made a few bucks by that time, I had a few dollars and thought, well, I was going to do
wonders. You know you always think of what you're going to do. So I just ran for the
ru~i.
Q: Who suggested - no\\. you say, Charley Hagrn, n.as he still around at that time'!
A: He was still arounrl yes, he was the one that could kind of alrvays agitate it. He'd aluays
want you to do this, want you to do that. He knew a little something about the hasis of
things. But he rouldn't help me much as far as getting votes hecause he was alrvays on
the other side. I-le was a Republican, he was with Republican people. So . . .
Q: Onre you'd made the decision you were going to run in 1950 in the primarl-, how did
you go about getting votes?
A: I did everything wrong
A: I didn't know what a committeeman was. See, I wasn't familiar xith it at that time
and I didn't care. I didn't think they were important; I knerv what they rverr hut didn't
know they were important. I didn't know that was the proper way to do. So I was going
to go out and du it on my own. You know I was going through a town and - that's after
1 got all of the petitions lined up. And that's why I had - see, I had a tough time. I
ran when they had two tough candidates on the ticket, see. I never got a ticket. Bill Git~t~s
was one of them and Donahue. And Bill Gihbs, ever\-hod>- thought he was the kingyin. But
he got in trouble too, Bill did. He had arranged payroll deals, some strangers on the payroll.
and he finally was indicted on that one at least. I think he's still living.
But he was real popular around and I always liked Rill too. ~lnd h~ tlitln'l xant me to run
you know. 1Ie told me I was crazy for running. Brcausr he could always heat L)onahue,
I knew that. And I guess maybe hr thought I might give him some opyusition. So he discouraged
me from running. Ife mas from Quincy too.
But I came in thr town of Quincy. And let's see, \ras this priest living' No I don't think
he was living in Quincy at that time. Hut 1 don't know. Oh, 1'11 tell >-ou how I got - ,111
no, that's before I was arhitrator or after that, I forget. That's before I rras arbitriitr~r. I
was just ignorant as hell about things. I remember going into Pittsfield, didn't even have
a card and I went up and down the hars and different plares and introduced ni\-self. .And,
"Where's Brussels?" They didn't even know - here half of the people ncwr wen heard
where Brussels was see.
Q: Yes
A: But I tvas ambitious and had a lot of enern then, And I said I had a felt- hhurks, which
in them days if you had fifty or one hundrrd thousand dollars. >ou had nione\- conrparrtl
to today. And I was pretty !iberal. .And I didn't care about sl~ending it. Because I figlll.e~I.
"Well I've made some, I coillil spend it." So I did go out and I spent m>- o\vn
money. Nohody give me a nickel. And I had somebody that must hare told mc ahou~
sending out - I got ahold of one of these books and I didn't even know they had a book
out. I went to Springfield and got a hook and sent these out to these coinmitteen~zn and
got enough to run. And I must have - I did really \vnrk. 1 went out thrre and I was
determined to - I had a chauffeur and I'd go up and down. I drove a C'adillar. And
everybody thought that \\-as a handicap but that turne(l iiut to be an asset to mt,.
Q: Oh, in tx-hat way?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well, in the first place, they'd know you. There wasn'l many Cadillacs them
days. There wasn't too many around. You'd come inlo town with a Cadillac and every time
I'd come back tu my car there'd he a hunch of people around there. I'll alxvas-s renlemher
one little town up hrre. Some people said, "Oh you ought to get rid of that car. You ought
to drive a car." And I thought the hell with it. I'ti r:~ther be in romfurt anyway. So onr
guy was walking dou-n the street there in the little town. And thr frllos-s were sunning
thrnlselres out there on the porches around this town. And one of the guys said, "You ran
always tell a man hs- the kind of a dog he's got."
Q: Oh! (laughter1
A: I was fortunate in making the acquaintance of a lut of key people who was on the other
side of the fence or independent that way by not calling on the committermen at that particular
time.
Q: Yes I srt,.
A: And I came within forty-seven vates, I think it was, of winning. In fact the Quincy
Herald-Whig come out and said it was impossihle for me to win, and the>- wrote a hig stor>ahout
it afterwards, Rut what happened, I was cheated on the election. They switched the
tally like see.
.A: Well then peoplr - then they felt sorry for me. This Quincy Herald-Whig r:ome out
with tlig headlines and then I was important as hell hecausr I got beat see.
Q: Yes
A: That u-as the best thing that ever happened to me was because I g11t heat. But I was
so darnnrrl tired of politirs hj- that ti~tle I - they'd want me to have a recount, and I wasn't
about to have a recount. The)- could have had the danlned thing then. I didn't want to
have nothing to do xvith it anymore. And so I can see now hour easy it is if you've got
a man or two on the election rommittee. All he (lid was say hr'd made an error. he can't
do a thing about it. "I just madr, a mistake." It's up to you to change the whole thing. It's
costly as hell. Su then they'd want me to have a recount and I wasn't going to have no
rrcount. I comr back home, wen1 hack to work. I thought to hell with it. Had a lot of
fun. So . . .
Q: Do you think that actually happened that the1
A: Yes Yes thry found out it dill actually happen.
Q: Oh. (chucklr~s)
A: Su I had some people in here one day. Well they'd come in her? quite a hit. One fellow
y the name of Reynolds, his name was. He was an old railroader out of
Roodhouse. Koodhouse was quite a labor town them days. IIe'd always bring some
ladyfriend with him. Ilr was quite a spender and quite a sturyteller. Ilr mas the life of
the bar here. He'd come in on Sunday afternoon. And I guess his girlfriend got tire11 of
it and she was u-anting to go hoinr. And so he said, "Yup, we're ready to gc~." And they'd
go back in their car and he'd came - "I've got rlne more joke to tell," and he'd gone down
the line. And hr just thought she'd never pull away from him see. And finally time \rent
out, she got tired, she just left him hrre.
Q: Well! (chucklesJ
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well he didn't have no way - and he had to be at work the next morning, the railroad,
he had to go to work. I don't know what'd he do. So, hell, nobody else had any rars or
anything around. After I closed up I took him home. And I was talking with Charlie. But
I didn't even know then who he was or if he had any influence. But some way or another
- Stevenson was governor and Paul Po\\-ell. And another guy from over at Carlinville, he
used to come over here once in a while.
Q: Lyons?
A: No. Just another bigshot and he died, he. . . . Anyway, they had ch:~rge of the
patronage. And one of the fellows over at Olney \\-as caught taking some fun~ls some way
or another. They'd offer something on this job. And my name was brought up. And naturally
I had the business experience. But, hell, I never had no labor or no unions or
anything. And this guy got up on the house floor or wherever it was at the - speech and
said. "They'd better do something for that Carl Wittmond, see, down there." (laughs) I'll
be damned if I didn't get the job. And I really didn't want it. I had plenty of business
and work to do. Hell, 1 really didn't want no damn - didn't even know what an arbitrator
was. We never heard of them, we'd never heard of rhem.
So one day I got a call wanting a joh to come to Chicago. So I reported up to Chicag~]. So
I stayed over at the Sherman Hotel. And they paid my esprnirs and all and I went across
the street and I was sitting around there. And even then I'd deal in stocks and
everything. I was pretty active then dealing in this and that, and had this popcorn operation
and had nly orchards then too I think, had them orchards. And I'd he sitting thvre
and I was thinking about all of this operating going on and me working for these peanuts. I
thought peanuts than a damned job you know. I was about ready to give it up.
And finally the chairman, J. B. [B. Jay] Knight - all of the other arhitrators, they wrre
in fear of him because every - thought he took a drink. Man, they didn't e\.er want him
to take a drink. And he used to ask me to go out and have dinner with him. :In11 he',]
take a drink and I'd drink with him. And that wasn'l planned. we'd just have - hr'd take
a wine or two. And the rest of the boys. I ren~eniber they used to go, "He don't drink with
you, does he?" And [ said, "Sure he takes a drink."
But anyway, I'd become disgusted with that after a couple of weks. I just thought I was
going to quit. I told him. He said, "You mean you're going to give this - this is a pretty
lucrative deal," he said, "You mean to tell me yoo'rr going to give this job up?" An11 I
said, "I think I'm wasting my time." IIe said, "I'll tell you \\-hat >-IIU do. ~ h rlnn't y you
stay one more week and if >-ou don't like it, why, then don't cnmr hack." 30 I stayed one
more week.
(taping stopped to attend custonier, then resunled)
Q: So you had another week'!
.4: Stayed another week and then hr \vent overhoard entrrtaining me around an11 I turnrd
out, they said, to be one of the l~est arhitrntors there was. I had a hvttrr record than most
any of them up there. But that was - talk to them and grtting acquaintrtl ihroughout thr
state. See I traveled the whole stat^, all the way from Ke\\-anee ~ l~~\vn to Cairo.
Q: What did you 1111 as an arbitrator? What did >-ou find out the jo11 amnuntrd to thcn'!
A: Well 1 had hearings. I'euple had injuries of any sort in a tiispute and it was up tu rnr
to decide what the reward \vaa and so forth. And I always recall the first - see in Chicago.
\I-hy. I had other arhitrators in the building, and hearing cases. And I heard them toci
see. But if you ran into a problem you could call a recvss and go in :in11 ask sonirhody
to help me. When I was out on my own I had a rourt reporter conir 11o\vn hrrr ever>-
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Monday morning from Brussels. And my frsl setting was Decatur, first town I had on my
end of it, And I'd have about fifty cases set for that one town. N'ell then in the meantime
they changeil ilaj-light-savings time. They had the old time then. IIere I comt in ;In 11or1r
late to begin with. Courthouse was full of people. Anybody had heen around that time,
I'd have just have given them the satchel and . . .
Q: Be gone. (chuckles)
A: . . . pay them their expenses and came on home. But 1 went up therc to sit on the judge's
chambers and had this court reporter there. And called different cases and I always remember
one prettj- proud - he was a senator, Senator McLIowney I think it was, if that name's
right and I think it is, because we got to be real good friends later years. His wife had
died and then he asked me to continue and I was tickled to death to continue for him. But
he thought I was the greatest guy on earth because I did continue. .knit then re had a fen.
other little cases and I kept my mouth pretty well closed and didn't say too damned
much. We got through them. And I talked to a lot of the fellows later on that I'd met
and the>- said - told them how 1'11 felt that first time - they said, "Well, \ye was just as
afraid of you as you was of us."
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: And then after that, \\-h>, then ~ve'd go to smaller places and the) weren't so fortnal
anymore. Informal and felt more at ease at it. And ever)- other month you came aruund
the same circuit see.
Q: Hor much time was invol\.ed with this? Were you gone pretty much of the time?
.A That took two or three da) s every week yes
: And can you think of an example of a case that wouId kind of exempIify what you were
doing, or . . .
A: Oh yes. I had a lot of them. . . . For instance one time - well, this \\-as at what
town? It was Galesburg or somewhere that one woman sitting back in the t~ark and she
had her papers all over the - I thought shc was an attorney. Pinally I called urr if she
had a case herha, she was representing someone. See they always tcll you - that's where
they're \\.rang The)- always tell you that you can represent yourself, hut you can't. You
should hire an attorney in that partirular case. Rut . . .
Q: I see.
A: So she came up and she wanted to do their case. So I had her put her ease on. Wcll
she didn't know anything about law. And at the time she was from Tusarora. I think it
was over I'eoria probabIy or someplace where that name is from. They were rcprescnting
the school board. And this wrman had got hurt some way or another in the school
building. She was inspecting the new school building and she got hurt. And she was
radical you know, couldn't talk to her very much, but I tried to hold the case hut she was
always a-phrasing her question's wrong. They'd make objections and I'd sustain the ohjection
and we weren't gettinfi any place. And I felt sorry for her t'ecause really she hat1 a
case. I could take it under advisement, so I took it under advisement, see.
So Hill Brrk\\-orth, he handled more workmen's rompensation cases than anybody in the state
of Illinois. He was one of the best attorneys in the area. Almost every town I went to
he would have some casts there. So he was sitting in the back end and he camc up and
said, "Yuu know I was laughing, just laughing at you, I was just wondering just \vh:lt th~,
hell you were going to do in that position. You know that gal's got a case if she had
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

somebody handling it for I I ~ " He said, "If you'll tell her to keep her mouth shut. I'll take
that case."
SESSION 3, TAPE 5, SIDE 2
Q: Did he take it?
A: He did. So she took it. Well, sure enough. He came - and Bill \\.as sharp in his
work. The case was called again in a couple of more months later, and he came back. And
this fellow who was representing the school board got disgusted with the school hoard
because they were in the wrong, you know. The>- didn't carry any insurance. They didn't
have no insurance and they didn't make a settlelnent with this woman. They should have
give her something this fellow thought. But they had to get the state's attorney on it. I
think he was a new fellow, I can't remember who he was. IIe wasn't familiar with
workman's compensation and this Beckworth knew the law. And he's telling then1 xhat
he - well he's going to sue them because they didn't have the coverage - and what he
wasn't going to do. Then they called recess and they were just tickled to death to make
a settlement then see.
Q: Oh. (chuckles)
A: And we got her a reasonable amount of money. And before the whole courtroom she
came up there and sh? put her arms around me and this Beckworth and she said, "At last
I've found two honest men." And . . .
21: And then Bill -- I always admired him for that - he said, "For the recoril. I a-ant to
show in the record that I'm going to make no charge." He never even charged her anything.
Q: I'll be darned
.4: He said, "That's the way I do my Christmas present work." So we 3it and talked to
him.
Q: I'll ire darned
A: But I had lot of interesting cases. IIad one time one felloxi- - 1x-e hare all this trarroiom
gossip you know, hear about getting millions and thousantls of dollars. This gu>- ivas working
for Texaco Oil Company and he was real up - you kno\i- the>- (offered him ;I fair prier,
you know, in settlement because he was a good man and he had been with them for
years. But he'd go to this har and they'd teil him al~nut all of this stuff. Well it was statutory,
you only get so much. And he was going to hnvt, a hearing. I didn't know what the>-'(!
offered him, see. .4nd after the case was over I'd just give him about fire hundred d(ollars
more than they'd offered him. And, hell, he took with this and he went bark to \\-ark and
they said, "The only thing that happenell," the!- said, "you just give him just a little more,"
thar just satisfied his ego ser. since he pot it.
Another onr in partiru!ar that I alu-ays remembered \\.as down in F:iirtiCld. IlIi~l~>is. \vh~'re
a fellow had been killetl one night on a rainy night. And run into :i stall~vl trilrk on the
road. And th? question was whether you was subjrct to call tu-enty-four hours a day. JVell
me, I was familiar with oil operation and I know just you harr to go oul ihrrr - so I gi\.~
him the award, and his wife the award. And about six months later they \vantell tr~ rrnprn
the case. They'd found out that, hell, he'd bern out with another woman and she got hurt
but she got away and she went to the hospital. And thrn her and her husbarlil got into
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

an argunirnt Iatrr UII a1111 the12 shr snilched on him. Rut I \voul~in't - thr casr \\as iionr
irnd 1 11-asn't ahout 111 rro1lc.n it anymorr. That was thrir invc~stigation priw 111 th;~t.
It \\-as cluitr a lot ~1' rxperiencr. You had to use some goo~i common sc.nsl3 irr :I 101 of th~~sr
things. .And att~,rnrys liked thr nay 1 han[lled it l~ecausr I think it h'lprd rr~r lit,ing ill tilt
husincss. 1 roulil rnahr up nly mind. 1'11 nrvt,r \vant a l~rief. Th~,y'~l ~l\v;iys l)ring ;i
brief. I ilirln't ivnrrt no Irrivf. If \-ou'(l \\-ant to knor \\.hat it is. I'rl lrll ~ U I I right nun.. And
that \voullj givv thrm a chance tu - if thry'tI \\-ant tu alrpcal it, okay, an11 thvy can srttlr
it the next hour or rrext week, nhrnever they wanted to, the) didn't have to \v:iit six nrontl~s
or s~lmething. They coulti wait for appeal. And the>- liked to do husillrss that \Yay. Thq
a~>lvrciated it.
Q: Ho\v did !-ou conle to do it that \v;~y, rath~r than the 11111c'r iviiyl 1)id you hav~ ii course
in hobv to [lo this sort of thing?
.A: No I ~Iidn't h;rvc no course on it. I just raid the mflrr ~ ( I U - I nct:[it-(1 to practice up
- \veil I did take a Dale Carncgie coursu one tilne. I used to ~~ractice on prol~lr just to
sce if you could get them convinced.
Q: Well. (chucklesi
A: I never kne\v whether I could do that \virh that court repirrtcr I bird. He ha11 more, ~lan~nerl
r1egrl.r~ than ever could think ahout. .And riding nlc~ng I just tried to see \\-hat I roulrl (lo,
ser il I col~ld convince him on my \\-ay of thinking or not. I sure as hell coul(l almost r\-pry
time.
(3: I'll 1)l. llarllc~(l.
A: Whun I lirst took thc jo11 he was a la~vyer and had a la\\ drgrrr an11 I rlun't hno\v svlrar
all. Hell uf a nice lello\v. nut alter riding with him thrrr \vrrks, then I'rl - swrr. \\-I~II I
hall ;i good jot] arr~l he was still a court reporter. Rrcausr \\.hen I tirst st;irt~,i (1111 I 11;~il
a complex thcrr, thar lir shnrrlil have my juh.
Q: I s tclu~cklesi IVcll let's see, \vho Ivere !-ou \\-orking for thcn'! \Vli,~ n-as in rhargc
of the Commerce Commission :it that time?
:\: Oh, who wa?? (pause) I think Konan was - I think Konan, Jim Konan was hrad c~l
it.
Q: Ilid you meet him at that time or . . .
'1: Oh yes sure. I knew all of them 11p thrrr in Chicagu then
Q: Llid he have any guidance lor you? [)id lir think yml \\.P~I? going the right direction'!
A: Oh 1-es he said I mas the best orrr thry liatl, hr to111 mr that. See, I was no lab\zyrr
either. I was the only one that wasrr't a Ian-yrr.
Q. Is that right'?
'1: 1 was thc only one there. '1 Iot of funny things you hear ;ind things lihc this. SLY..
I always drovr a C;~dillar then too. And some guys wuuld say, "How in thv hell c;in " -
they thlrught I took moncy, see.
A: And some guy said. "tlcll, he don't need that god[lamne(l jol). HI. can 11uy anilthcr ratlillac
il he wants t(~," onc day when I \\-as in the restroom. This 11riust that I usc(l to visit
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

with I was telling you about - see when I first got the job I didn't know nhat to do, and
he didn't know too much about it. He said it had to be something about arbitration. He
didn't know what type it was. ITe said, "It must be pretty lucrative. But if I ever catch
you taking anything, you'll never be a friend of mine." And that was really good advice
from him because I could have got a little money every once in a while from somebody I
guess. They kind of suggested it. They never bothered me much on that.
And later on I was sure glad I didn't because I met all of those same people all over the
state later on. And if I'd have took five hundred or a thousand, they'd have had you tagged
then. That kind of gets me disgusted. IIere are some of these guys that are always talking
about their payoffs you know. My experience is this, you always - it's like a girl towards
a man. She has to give him some idea - only thing to refer to him - to offer you anything
to begin with. So . . .
Q: I see.
A: Nobody is just going to come right over to you here, "I'm going to give you so much
for this," or something like that. They'd have to have some idea along the way that you're
going to take it or you wouldn't take it. I know a lot of people think that I made a lot
of money off the legislature and I just let them talk. I never say anything to them. It.
cost me money to be in the legislature.
Q: You mentioned Paul Powell and have 3-ou thought of this individual from
Carlinville? His name yet?
A: Mike Seifert, I believe.
Q: Seifert
A: Mike Seifert, I think that's who. Yes Mike Seifert - him and Paul Powell, the) got
me the job.
Q: You knew Seifert I guess
A: Mike come over here one time. He's an attorney, anti he come over here one day and
the peach crop was short. And I had an orchard out here, just an orchard. And xvr weren't
even picking the peaches because there wasn't enough of them see. Them days we didn't
keep our orchard mowed either because we didn't hare no peaches. And he and a [hick
dealer took a Buick and ran over that whole orchard. And it was hilly and they'd see two
peaches on this tree, and naturally the pearhes mere big. And the>- went out therc and
picked four or fire bushels. And I said I didn't rharge them anything. Ancl thcy went ovcr
to Carlinville and they give those peaches away, and he didn't have a shirt lc,ft on him climbing
in those trees. But I guess he always remembers that. Then hc come over here to rat
orcasionall>- too I guess prior to that time. I imagine hr [lid. But I rernemher him getting
those peaches and he made surh a how-d'ye-do about giving away all th'se big
peaches. They grew to an excessive size because there weren't many on a tree.
But Mike and Pot%-ell was the ones that had charge of the patronage. And Stex-enson
wouldn't okah- an>-hoiiy. Stevenson !%-anted somebody in there that didn't knoxt- nothing.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: I guess he did, because he figured he wouldn't take nothing
Q: Well! (chuckles)
A: Adlai had that idea I think that he . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I I a n e llad you known Paul Po\%-ell ul) to that time?
tiad you met him?
A: Not real xvell, a littlr. HIIW lid I meet him? Well I Guess when I ran that first time
for office, that's the it \v:ls.
Q: Did he give you any help in runnin~ that first timr?
A: No he didn't give me no help. He was in with the other guys
Q: I see. (vhucklesi
A: They were a11 oppuslng me. I was on my own See they were in, and I was on the outside
Q: But then he u:ent along with helping you out after you'd
A: Well they said they'd hetter do si~rnething for this guy, Wittmond, he - when I got all
those votes.
(Taping stopped to attend customer, then resurned)
Q: SIJ you had met I'owell at that tirnr, hut
A: Yes but he didn't Rive me no help. Naturally he was in with them guys. Scrvc~l with
them and naturalll- he'd he for them, and not for me. But 1 guess I'd made an in~prrssion
on him, going out there which they didn't think I had a chancc to win, and got . . .
Q: Pretty close,
A: Close. And then they'd thought they ought to give me some thin^
Q: Yes.
11: I dirln't ask for a job
Q. Did you get to know Stevenson at that timr?
A: Oh yes. I got
: [low did you meet Stevenson?
A: IVell through this joh. Norma Lee Browning - not - MacMurray, Browning, \vh:~t the
hell was her name yet? She's a reporter - his srerrtary and I got to he real g~md
friends. I might have even mentioned her name the other day. She was Stevenson's righthand
man, a gal in Chicago. She was head of the commissions. She was secretary of the
commission up there. She was real close to me. She gave me a lot of hreaks.
Q: In what way? What do you mean?
A: Well, we was in the general-merchandise business and a lot of times it would he
husy. She'd have these cases set for my convenience too see. And like we used to do a
lot of l~usiness here at Christmas, mrrrhandisr husiness around Christmas time, and so thry
all got together and they decided to cancel all hearings during the month of December.
Q: I'll he darned
A. Let me stay bonir thr whole month of December
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Well let's see, Botchy Connors was the floor leader for Stelensun Did you get to know
William Connors at that time?
A: No. I didn't know him
Q: Were there those in Chicago that you became acquainted with at that time, powers-thatbe
in Chicago"
A: Oh there's alot of them up there that 1 knew. And I can't recall - for a few years
there I kept in contact with him. Every time I'd go to Chicago I'd go up to the commission
and visit with him. But other than that I had other interests and later years I just forgot
- a lot of them died and left. So I can't recall.
Oh, one woman - I'll tell this story about - we had one real good looking court reporter
down there. This fellow Hunt, he was one of them too. IIe was a hell of a nice guy out
of Chicago. But this !-oung fellow, I can't remember his name, a nice-looking young
man. We'd pull in Fairfield. And see, we were as important as hell. We'd pull into town
and everybody wanted to meet us especially, and we'd i;(o up to Elks Club and meet a lot
of people . . .
tap in^ stopped to attend customer, then resumed)
A: I forgot what we was on now
Q: You said when you pulled into a place like Fairfield . . .
A: Oh Fairfield - see, down in the oil drilling country, you know, we had a lot of rases
down there. Naturally the oil rnen wanted to entertain us. An11 crew too. And we'd go
up to the Elks Club, and these oil men liked to play poker or something. This young fello\v,
naturally he never knew his way around too much, never been around, prohahly never even
knew how to play cards. And I usually like to play cards myself too. \Ye gut in one
night. Somebody picked up our tab for our dinner and h;l(i all the drinks you'rl \\-ant. See
it was dry, but the clubs had drinks.
Q: Yes.
.4: And these wornen wanted to dance. You know, they were the upper rlass people. .And
hoy, they were nice-looking \vomen. And hell, he's a good-looking fellu\v and he n-as 2 gctotl
dancer. Here he'd never had it so good. IIr had all the women to dance with and all the
food he wanted to eat and all the drinking and it never cost hiln a penny.
Q: Well! (chuckles)
A: The)- always advised not to fraternize with any of our employees but I always (lid [he
opposite. I'd go with them and, because they weren't going to buy me off for a lish dinner
or nothing and I'd bu!- their dinner too if it had to be. they didn't have to huy mine. And
everybody else was afraid to do that. But I'll tell them, "Hell with it. 1'11 go out In eat
with who I wanted to eat with." I'rl play cards with them at night anii thrx nest nrorning
decide against them.
Q: Well. (chuckles) \Vhat types of things came up in the oil field that you had LO arbitrate'?
A: Oh they'd get injuries, all different tjpes of injuries.
Q. So these rr-ere nurmally betaeen lnhor and
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.4: Yes, somehody got hurt and
Q: . . . industri- and all. How about the oil business in general? I guess the find started
when? About 1937, I guess the boom took off.
A: Yes do\vn in that area. That's ~vl~en I was traveling down in that area. You'd sit in a
restaurant and you'tl just - somebody [would say,] "Count me in for five," "Count me in
for ten," she was really booming then. 1 was never a sucker for that quirk money. I always
paid out of it. But I did buy some land. I bought that Shelton land ~lown there. And then
I hit some oil on it.
Q: How did you come t11 huy that Shelton farm?
A: Oh, that's another thing by not knowing too much. And they always. . . . Sitting
around, oh, Judge Mills is one of them. IIe's another one \rho turned out to he a good frirnd
of mine down there. He's the one who told me, "Carl, don't ever take," he says. Ile said,
"1,ittle did I think when I took a few bucks" - he was the state's attorney one time -
"took a few bucks for permitting them some slot machines, that they were ever going tr~
start killing people." And he told me. lways remembered him telling me that. Why he
told me - see, I was fortunate in life I gurss to have people like that who kin11 of took
me under their wing, why. 1 don't know, but they would givc me some good sound advire
occasionally like that. And he a perfect stranger to me as far as that goes. I never known
him till I met, on a few cases. And I went up to his office several times.
So when this land came up and he said, "\Vittmond," - they always thought I had money
because I dror-e a Cadillac you knou-. And so just, "Make a good huy here," said. "Shelton
is going to be sold." I remember I took this fellow, Hunt, out, I think, :~nd\rc looked at
it. I had to buy him a new pair of shoes - I always carried a pair of overshcres in my
car. I was used to being a farmer, hut he didn't carry any. And he ruined his shors. I
hought him a new pair of shoes. Later on, if I'd have knew what I do I wouldn't even have
the nerve enough to walk over this land. Hell, he was shooting everybody that walks on
it. But hell . . .
Q: That's what I understand.
A: But me, I didn't know nothing about a gangster, they didn't scare me. So I went up to
that sale. And sure enough. I bought a lot of it. It was an unusual sale the way it was
cctnducted. But they thought I was a Chicago gangster then or something.
Q: Oh is that right? (chucklesl Why was it an unusual sale the way it was conducted?
A: Well I gums - I don't know, there was just so much implication there that - usually
when you have a sale you have an auctioneer. you bid here, bid there, hid there . . .
(taping stopped for lunch, then resumed)
Q: You were saying it was an unusual type of auction when you bought the
A: Yes. IJsually an auctioneer, he quotes a price and you've got a bidder here, so much,
so much, so here. But or1 there you made a bid and they'd your name, you'd bid fifty
thousand. They had three clerks with three legal pads like you've got there. And they'd
write, "\Vittmond, fifty-five," "Wittmond, fifty-five," and they'd keep repeating it. Every
time anybo~ly wuuld raise it, fifty-five thousand, they'd say fifty-five thousand. Keep on writing
it down. The first time and the last time I ever attended a sale like that. I3ut they
wanted to make damned sure it was right. They didn't have anybody could have a squabble,
say well that wasn't the hid or . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I'll be darned
h tap in^ stopped to attend customer, then resumed)
Q: Was there any question in your mind that you were going to be able to purchase that
land during the auction?
A: Oh I can't recall. 1 don't remember much. They said it in front of me, it would be a
bargain, and I did get a bargain. I sold it at a hell of a profit a few years later.
Q: Well how soon did you learn that there might be some problems in farming it?
A: Oh I learned that pretty quick. I couldn't get nobody to rent it, nobody would rent
it. They wouIdn't even go on it. And then for years they'd thought the>-'d stolen everything,
when you did rent out, off of it too. A lady they called Grandma down there, different
people would just go out and - see, this had been in negotiation for so long and Carl had
died and his widow had never wanted anything to do with him. People would just go down
and farm a few acres here, twenty-five, thirty acres here, and nobody got anything out of
it.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: I always recall sitting down at a little restaurant one day - kind of a high backboard
to it. And heard some fellows talking about it. See, some of this ground was \vet and I
had to drain it. And John Stelleck bought it and - guess he put it in his secretary's name
- lie didn't want no one to know who owned it. I couldn't get no service on it to - get
permission to go through it so I just went on and dug a ditch on through it without asking
anybody. So my auditors advised me to take a chance on it because that would give me
a chance to charge the whole thing off. And I didn't think we were doing anything wrong,
we was helping the whole area, drained the whole community. These fcllo\vs said. "I ~lon't
know who in the hell them guys are, they must t~e a hunch of gangsters." he says. .Ant1
1 thought, well my God, 1.1-e heen going overboard trying to treat everyhotly right you
know. I want to get along in the community and what they threw in my n.;i?. :\rill I happened
to think that u-hen I made that ditch in there I had to make a pretty good-sizcd
ditch. They couldn't go over and steal the timber oat of it any inore and that's what thry
were mad about.
Q: I see. (chuckles)
4 Couldn't get through the ditch
Q: I'll he darned. I understand that part of it was purl.ha.;rd hj- somconc vlir ant1 they
u-ere shot at when they mere trying to . . .
A: Oh yes they shot - I had a man \\-orking for nie who was sli~~r ;I\ nhrn hi. \\-as 11rivi11~
the tractor. Come up here and he wouldn't go t1:lck down to \\-ark. .\nil I thought he nilr
implicated with some women or something. But the\- just didn't want yon to farm it, tho!
weren't about to let you farm it at all.
Q: Did you get it farmed?
A: Yes I tinally got it under operation.
Q: How did yuu gu ahout doing it?
.I: Oh I just had to finally - I'd better not tell tuo much of this because Blackir's still living
and he might get ahold uf some of this, so I'd better keep quiet. You're ne\-er afraid of
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

him. Down there - see. Blackie uras one ~11o supposedly had it in for the Sheltons and
he could get in trouble down there. He got in trouhle too. He had to go to the penitentiary,
he's out now some way. I don't know. Supposed to he in Kansas. He's not supposed to
come over this way. He always was a friend of mine really until he got it in for rveryhody
now, which I guess you would being in the penitentiary a while. He was a lot lnure . . . had
deal even though he was wrong.
Q: And you finall> sold out. Did you have any trouble selling it?
A: Yes for a long time. I're still got some of it yet
Q: 011 you have
A: Some - yes, some land down
Q: Well let's see, horn long did the arbitrator job that you had last?
A: Four years.
Q: For four gears. Then you decided to try for the
A: Legislature.
Q. Xhat made you decide to proceed again with it?
:\: Oh let's see, how did I - who was running then'! Oh, Rill Gihhs got in trouhle, that's
the way it was. src. And Donahur. And so then I ran and I gut a hreak there hecausr
Gihhs was from Quincy and I got tu he pretty popular in Quincy. See this priest rvas don-n
here and moved to Quincy. I went to Quincy t:ollege and I got an in in there and I was
doing alright in Quincy. t\nd then in the meantime xhile I was arbitrator I made a lot
of friends in Quincy. And heing with all the attorneys I got to meet all of them and that
ga\-e me :I pretty good hasv that way.
IJ: Well
M'hat did the district cover at that time? JVhat
A: The first tirnt, I run rve had Adarns County. It was 110 mile or a 115-mile long, along
in that area, the distance from north to south. liail .&dams County, 11-e had Pike County,
n.c had Scott Count)- an11 ('alhoun County. And then I :ilrvays ran a big majority see. I
was \vay ahead of anybody ser. And then that made the party mad. They thought I was
keeping them from gctting tno rrpresentatives. 1 was the only one representative fur :I long
tinre in my district. I was the only elected Democrat of any of thv statr
officials. Kepuhlican bras 1,illian Schlagenhauf, she was frum (Juincy. She was a
Republican, hll the other people rvcre Rrpublicans, and I was the only I)ernocrat, see, in
the distrirt. And ronsrquently Democrat party figured I \\--as a detriment t(l then1 hecause
I had my orvn independent party brcause I acquired that when I \\-as nut. Thr first time
I didn't contact committeemen se?. Then when I was arhitrator I hat1 time nruun~i town
to gu and visit xith husinessmen sil I had a lot of the husinrssmen for me.
Just like the other da)- I was over at Jacksonrille sitting there and thr Kepuhlicans h;id
a party and had a - to do some birds and - I was at this tahlr and hell people started
strolling in to this littlr meeting they had and some guy, "Hey, "he saxs," you're not runnin~
are you? IIell, more Repohlicans talk to you than to the rest of 4-ou." Well I knen them
all from way h;rrk, some friends of mine, anrl . . .
Q: So you \\-ere kind of running as an independent then?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: TJsually the party always thought that all the time. They was always working against
me. They never give me no money. Or they always give the other guy money, hut I could
always beat them, and . . .
Q: Nuu this was in the primary you're talking ahout.
A: Yes. Well the general election too that's when they'd aluays do it too
Q: Oh they didn't support you for the general election so much?
A: They'd support mr do\vn the line but they'd always lean the other guy to give him mure
support to help him out. Figured I was going to get some :inyway. That's what they'd
preach. "Wittmond's going tu he high man anyway. Give thr vutes to the other guy, scc."
Q: I see
A: And I always had - even my good friends did that. Joe Knight fur instance, he did
that. I can remember he mad^ a big speech one time. And, hcil, he's nl? buddy-buddy-
. But they were so interested in trying to control the hous~'. see, that thr? xere going lo
elcct t\i-o. They wanted to elect t\vr> hy balancing it see.
Q: Yes. KO\\- let's see, this was in 1!W when you \yere running. Now that \vas just after
the reapportionment. Did that h;ive anything to do with the change in the situ;itionl l95:i
was the year it was authorized.
A: Well, then we had another counts or two. Wc had Morgan County that
Q: Was added in.
A: Then Green County - see, I had Morgan, Green and Jersey. I had Grern l~elnre. we.
but . . .
SESSION 1, T.APE fi, SIDE 1
Q: We were talking last time about your election campaign in 1954. What \rere the highlights
of that campaign? What were )-our primary objectives'?
A: That was the first year 1 ran wasn't it, 1954?
Q: Well, that would have been the timr you were elected
A: Oh, the time I was elected oh
Q: Yes.
A: You mean what I
Q: Yes what were your campaign issues and that sort of thing?
A: Well, number one was we didn't have any roads in t.his western part of the area at
all. That was one of the big selling points. And no direct route to St. Louis. I was al\vays
wanting to try to get a direct route from Quincy. Quincy didn't have a good way of ~oing
to St. Louis. And I always wanted to get a highway going north up to iletroit and then
going out to Griggsville. Eventually they're getting something set up along that line.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Nuniber two, the secretary of state opposed selling these license plates at local levels. It
was so damn hard for us to ever get a license here and my God we'd send them in, and
my God then we'd get arrested because we didn't have no license plates. And I wanted to
have them sold at the county seat. That was my program. But I never got the banks to
sell them or handle that matter. There was a lot of opposition to that. See - I didn't
have no - never did find out why. but the secretary of state's office thought it would he
too involved, too much chance of people keeping money. I guess maybe there was something
to that hecause the more people you've got handling money, the more chance you've got of
people stealing from you. But the banks are pretty responsible people for it. So now I guess
they've limited to all that. I don't think they have any law suits on that especially the wajthey've
got it set up now. And it's not too bad.
I wanted something along to copy after Missouri where if you hought a car you immediately
got a license plates, not have to run around here for a month. Rememher how inconvenient
here - when I used to do some traveling I'd huy a new car - usually hought a new car
to take a trip in - well then, hell, I had to wait a month to ever get the license or get
a title to it. And then you didn't want to travel in those days without a title to your car.
I rememher a couple of times I got into some difficulty in that manner going from state
to state.
Q: How did you go ahout extending your campaign up in the northern part of the district
where you perhaps were less known then?
21: Well, I was in apple business. That's the one thing I tried to emphasize. Trying to gpt
my nephew who's running now to be - something significant with you, that when they think
ahout you or this particular thing, they think about you. And I was in the apple business
in the hig scale. I owned the Sunrise Orchards here. And I would give apples away. Anrl
every charitable organization, bingo game or anything I alivays had apples.
It didn't have anything to (lo along with the election hut that was in that process anyway
of changing our packaging from haskets to boxes. 13ad this hox conlpany out uf (:hicago
came down here and solli me on the idea. And I mas the first one in the :lru \rho packaged
any apples in hnxes and paper cartons at that particular time. And then I took my sticker
and put it around this hox and made a beautiful package. You always got in nevt tu this
chairman or someone and I'd give him a bushel of apple or a hox of apples and thtsy'cl set
it right up there in their front and my gift always outshone anybody else. I'rol~ahl? would
be rheaper than anyone, but it would show up more.
Q: Yes sir. cchucklesl
.A: And that was a lot to do with it. And then I stressed on thc tlusiness peoplr. I alivays
went to the business people. And I could talk their language hecause I'ii heen in husiness
all my life. And I'd go into every little store in the hamlet. That \ri-;is:I lot of assistancr
to me hecause I knew a lot of salesmen who mould call on them that called on mr and
vice versa. .And I had pretty good response from the husint~ss people in that respect.
Q: \Yere there an? individuals in, say, Quincy that \\ere helpful to you, up in that
.A: Well, yes, there was. I - the second time I guess it was, this Monsignor, this prirst,
whn had hecn here - I think it was about that tinie, maybe he wasn't thprc >-hat. But in
later years he sure was helpful even if it wasn't that particular ca~npaign tlec:lusr he was
real popular and he would take me around and introduce me especially if the women had
:r something going on. He'd take me and introduce me around. And that helped out a lot
when you had somehody as influenlial as him to say, "I'd appreciate you giving him a vote. I
know him real well. He'd make a gootl man," or something like that He didn't come righl
out and say, "Here, you ought lo vote for him," or anything like that. But he could do it
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

in the bark way without making it look like it was to(^ political. Say, "I'd heen ;I friend of
his," and so forth and so forth.
And then I was lucky enough to meet a fellow I J ~ the name of Joe Herkenkamp up there.
He'd been a politician who got in some difficulties and he xvasn't popular with his party
either. I don't know, they tell me Joe went over there and he spent a lot of money and
kind of goofed off a lot when he was young. But anyway he was a real good fri~nll of
mine. Him and a fellow by the name of Logan ran the Moose Lo~lge. They were head of
the Moose. So, we developed a friendship, and practically I used their olfice for a
headquarters. In fact they even sent letters one timr aritten on the Moose's
letterheads. Said, "Dear Brother" - maybe that's the reason I joined the Moose probably
about that time.
Q: I see. (chuckles)
A: 1 think maybe that's where I reall>- eventually joined, was at Quinry. It said. "L)var
Brother Moose," that I was a member or something on that order, and write out ;I Iettcr
and that would help. Why they were so ansious for mc to he elected, I don't know. But
they used to go nut on Saturday nights after they clr~sed up their lodge and they'd go oul
and tark up signs around all these churches. They knew they'd be tore (io\r-n the nexl
day . . .
Q: Oh, is that right? (churkles)
A: . . . but at least they'd he there for one day. And he being an old-time j~oliririan, he
was like this Charlie Hagen, he knew all the angles. He had a sense of feeling also like
this Hagen. 1 remember ants time he kneu of a big family that - a lo1 of votcrs in it. And
he said, "Now they don't like me, but you go in and don't tell them l'm with you at :111.
I'll stay out here in the car," he said, "hut you . . ." He tol(l rile what to tell them. .And
sure enough, I got their support.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: And one time rroing into some restaurant in there, and he says, "You go on in thrre,
and I'll stay out." He says, "Recause I'll tio you more harm than good." It takes s smart
man to know that, to knouf where he can be helpful and where he won't be helpful. Most
people bar.re in. 1 also learned that you take some fellow who you think is influisntial, ran
do you more harm than good. One time I took - in fact he was a busincss associate of
mine and substantial from a finanrial angle in the locality. And I took him with me one
day to go out and campaign. And finall? had one fellow who called me bark to say, "Could
you come back some time when he's not with you?" See, he didn't want . . .
Q: I'll be darned
A: . . . to discuss anything as long as he was with me
Q: And did you find that they wanted to tiiscuss things prctt) much''
A: Well, there were some things. But really that wasn't important. But to them these
little things were important. Everybody has something that is real important. If you could
just listen, that's the secret. Just to let them talk, whatever they've got to discuss. It takes
a Iot of time.
Q: How did you handle that? Did you have a pitch that you would - you'd go in and say,
"How do you do, sir?" and then start talking? Was th~re any particular thing you'd say'?
A: Yes I'd just walk on in and I'd just say I'm from - see, it's kind of a novelty iinynay
to be from Calhoun County or Brussels because most people never heard of it. And it was
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

kind of a mystery place anyway, no railroatis. And that's one thing they'd - "Oh, yes, we're
heard about it, no railroads," and naturally I don't want to repeat what else they'd say about
it but a few things.
And I could talk with authority because I had made a few bucks. I was pretty sure of myself
because I was doing business and making money. And I had some confidence that I wasn't
afraid to walk into a hank and talk to a banker too because I didn't owe them anything. Or
if I did, I was big enough that I could pay it off or vice versa, and they were wanting my
business worse than I needed them. And I think that helped a whole lot, if you had
confidence. Where if you had an inferiority complex, it hurts you when you walk in. But
I was pretty confident in myself then.
Q: Did driving the Cadillac help up there in that area?
A: Yes it helped all th? time. A lot of my ad\zisors at that time said, "You ought to get
a little car to drive in." But I had back trouhle anyway, all of my life I had trouble -
and that's a far drive. I drove Cadillacs and it seemed like that did help me in my particular
position. They knew I was in business and they figured, I guess, "Well hell if he's in business,
if he isn't worth a damn" - Iike several of them remarked. One gub- thought. "You can
tell what type of man he is by the type of a dog he drives. A lot of them \vould say, "Well
hell I'll take a chance on him. Hell if he can make any money for himself, he'll leave a
little for me," or something like that. You know, if you made any money. they thought you
was crooked anyway, a lot of people did. So you figure, "Well if he does steal some, he'll
leave us have some of it," or something like that.
Q: What about other places up in that direction, like Pittsfield for example? Did you
A: Pittsfield I had some friends up there who - let's see, was I - I associated indirectly
with them beforehand in some business deals. A fello\v by the name of Lee Newman who
was head of production credit. I alxvays had an in. That was lucky to pet in with the key
people, financial people, it seemed Iike for some reason or other. Not that I had any maneshut
I had some dealings with them. And he was head of the production credit and naturally
had contacts in those days as there was a lot of farmers and u-hen he went artrund to visit
the farmer, he could say, "Well he's a pretty good guy. 1 believe I'd rote for him." We'll
hought a few pieces of property together. And had many dealings together.
And let's see, hot\- elscb would I - contacts did I have in Pittsfield? When I first started
out, I didn't have tnu much outside of him. But I'd easily acrguired a lot of help. I'll tell
you xhat helped in Quincy. was that Quincy was envious of Adams County, and . . .
Q: Oh?
A: . . . see dams County always had the representative. And I'ike ~vonld like to had one
down in this area.
A: That helped some too.
Q. Well let's see now, Jacksonville wasn't in the district at that time.
A: Jackson\ille wasn't in there the first tlrne I ran
Q: What trther centers were there besides Quincy and I'ittsfield?
A: We had Scott County, Winchester. Winrhester was a natural for me. Those type of
people just fit right in hecause they were small, we were small and they could never get
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

a representati\~e, so they went for me. 1 got a hreak there. 1 can rrrall that. I aln-ays
carried Winchester big. In fact I stop in there now and \.isit every time 1 go through there
because a lot of the old fellows are still living that done me a lot of go011. But a lot of Ihern
are feehle now. In fact one of them was just a handyman around the garagr o\-[,r thvre,
but everybody liked him and so they had me hc the pallbearer. And 1 had the only airconditioned
car in the area in those days. There wasn't no air-conditionc~i rars. Even the
funeral directors didn't have any. I had the Cadillac with the air conditioner. :And 1 took
all the pallbearers in my car. We had to drive about - a little town of Merritt oul there
- about fifteen miles from Winchester, and the roads were dusty and thcsrt fcllo~vs nc\.er
quit talking about it because they could ride in comfort while everybody else was out swallowing
this dust.
Q: Well what about driving out through the country? Did you stop and lalk to the farmers
in the fields and that sort of thing?
A: Oh yes every time I'd see somebody out on the road I'd stop my car and jun11) out and
talk to him. And I had the ability to talk to the farmer hecause 1 was actually ;r f;irm[xr. 1
was out doing a farm, farmed myself, 1 could drive, do anything. I could drive all the equipment
and drive a truck or do anything else. So I wasn't handicapped there in that respect.
Q: Well did you have cards that sou handed out'!
A: Oh yes. Cards and always had, "13usinessman and Farn~er" on it.
Jacksonville, when that area got to be part of the territory, that ma~ic? it a littlcx ~liffer~nt. I
always recall one morning I got up early out on the streets and campaigning and this fello\v
looked at it and, "Farmer! You one of them goddamnet1 farmers? Your damn equipment!"
Iie must have had an accident or something on the road. Farmers should be more conscious
of that today or someday there is going to be some legislation enacted that we can't move
this equipment back and forth. So it's going to hurt me because I've got several farms on
Route 36 up there and it's handy to be able to run this equipment from farm to farm wilhoul
having to load it on another vehicle. And I always tell my men to sure watch it. "If
anybody's behind you, get off the road - especially if there's an accumulation of trafic -
to let them go on by." But anyway this man, he was certainly mad at the farmers at that
particular time. And I thought, "My God, I've sure the got the wrong thing in this town."
But Jacksonville is entirely a different type of a place to operate than Quinry. Quinc? I
could go down the street and not one person did I ever insult. See a lot of people aluays
say, "They'll insult you, they'll do this, they'll do that." But not one person, up, down 1lam~shire
and Maine and all those streets - I used to go on every corner street. I'd say, "XI?
name is Carl Wittmond," and vice versa a lot of them would talk to you. And 1 rernemt~rr
later on somebody said, "lie seemed to be such a nice fellow," and you kno\v, I'd get somv
response from different people. Now, Jacksonville, you couldn't do that. They'd think you'd
flirt around if you'd do that in Jacksonville. The people are diflerent, different
reaction. Women down in Quincy would be on their way home from grocery shopping, you
could ask them to come in and have a drink with you, a beer, you know. But you'd ever
do that in Jacksonville, they'd put you in jail. Just a difference in area.
Q: Kind of uppity sort of
A: Well different, for some reason or other. I don't know what it was exactly.
Q: Well during the campaign did you feel pretty confident that you were going to be able
to ...
A: I was always confident yes. I always thought I could do anything, you kno\v. I just
figured I could do anything I wanted to do. I think I was trained that way. Aln~ost anything
I wanted to do, I did it. And 1 just figured by working hard enough you could gct
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

anything you'd want if you'd want it had enough. And I'd just want it h:i11 rnuugh and
I just thought I mas going to get it.
Q: What about confrontations? Who were you running against in the regular race?
.I: Well I had tough competition all the time see, with all the party, because I never mas
a party man. And they'd always put soniehody up to beat me. Antl county chairman, Don
Irving, is a heck of a nice - in fact he's the most important Democratic chairman in the
state of Illinois. Hz \\.as voted that several times. And I had to run against him. :And
he's tough competition when you go in and beat a man like that. and . . .
Q: You were able to beat him, were you?
A: Oh yes I defeated Don. 1Iard for me, too. He was real popular and that made it bad
aftvru-ards too when I ran against some other ones, because me heating him, he acted like
he was for me. but I could tell he was always - his argument was that he was throwing
his weight to the other party on account of trying to elect two, but it mas just a little resentment
underneath that I had heaten him. Naturally, that's only human nature to fed that
way.
Q: Did you have much problem because of the bullet-vote type of thing? The three-for-one?
A: Did I. You know, in the counties? Well see if you'd come from a big town you had
a big advantage, see there are more voters there and they'd plug free for you. That's the
reason every time I ran, especially the first time I ran, all the newspapers said I didn't have
a chance. You know, I mean the Quincy Herald-Whig came out and said there's no chance
of winning from a little county. But I really worked hard. I worked awful hard tl, win.
Q: Did you go talk to the Erald-Whig?
.A. Oh yes. I got to he ~ood frlends with the head of the Herald-LVh& and he endorsed
me several times.
Q: Oh'! See. there w;is a Pittsfield paprr also. Wasn't Paul Findley involved with it?
.4: I'aul Findley - well they had a Denlocratic paper thcn. Paul wasn't in it then. There
\%-as two papers there. Paul finally bought that paper nut, t h ~ 1)emocratic-Times . [I'ike
County Democrat-Times] ant1 they weren't ever for nie too niuch. They were for the other
side. Eventually they were friends of mine in later years hut earlier, some rpason, I don't
know why it was, whether it aas because I was in the tavern husiness - that hurt me to
a certain extent.
Q: Oh it did?
:A: Yes, me heing in the tavern business, a lot of then1 said, "\Vcll he's a hooze man. he's"
- \id I never drank, see.
Q: Yes
,A: Antl nohody could say anything about nle drinking hecause I never did drink. I could hall
all I'd want to drink but I just didn't want to drink. I used to argue that with Governor
Stevenson years ago. He was trying to regulate people's morals and ~ O I I sure get in
trouble. If you just tell somehody they can't do something, that's wh~n they want to do
it.
A But drinking, we old Germans - my dad made beer and anybody wanted a hottle of beer.
you could give it to then1 you know. And we always had lunch :it night ;~nd you could givc
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

them a hottle of heer and some cheese and crackers. To me I didn't give a damn allnut
the beer. I'd even have beer. And later on this fellow, Godar, I was telling yoti about -
when he got to be a big operator, he used to buy whiskey by the barrel because he entertaine~l
a lot of people.
Q: Yes.
A: Then we had whiskey stuck up in the attic and
Q: Yes you told about it evaporating on you.
A: Evaporating, yes. and they thought somebody stole it. But they hadn't known it at the
time. I could carry a fifth of whiskey in my hriefcase - when I was arbitrator I used to
always carry one with me. I could carry there for six months and never even open the
darned thing. But gambling, hecause it was such a sin and the ~ievil was going to get you,
I wanted to learn to gamble. I used to park my vehicle when I was working some place,
then walk up here so I could get to learn to play cards that way, learn to play cards.
Q: Well let's see now, as the regular election, what did ytru do election day? You go around
to the precincts and . . .
A: Oh yes I did. I went around, for first few >-ears I did yes. Hell, oh yes. I went around
and I would - see you had to stay away them days. They'd get in fights about bring too
rlose to it. I can't recall then when you had laws or - anyway, they took their politics
seriously. But I would just go from - maybe stand around an hour or so and had the people
in and see about votes where I thought it was needed. At some big precinct I'd stand outside
and as they walked in. give them one of my cards, you know_ stay au-ay far enough from
the poll.
Q: Think that was effertive?
A: Yes, I think it was. I think a lot of people are influeneed at the last minute. If you
have that knack of talking to them right and asking for their vote.
Q: Yes. Was that just here in Calhoun County or
A: Oh no. I stayed away from Calhoun Count>-. I left that to my key men here. I wrnt
to where they. in the bigger areas, and . . .
Q: IVhere? Over at Quincy for example?
A: Mostly Quincy or Pike County. onr or the other. He one of the other places. Pittsfield
or Quincy.
Q: Well then where did you go to learn the results that night?
A: Well we usually stayed here and kept the phones busy trying to find (rut. And in those
days it was really hard to find out :mything. You'd get in one report and then prettx sn~~n
you'd have another report. And by then they'd have them doubled up and mixed up and
a lot of tirries you didn't know until the next morning really.
Q: Well let's see now, you indicated in the 1950 election you thought there was sorrie manipulation
nf the votes. Was there that sort of thing that went on in the 1954 election?
A: In the 1953? &'el the Quincy Herald-Whig wrote quite an article on it And I think
it got quite out in the open and scared a lot of people a little hit.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Kind of cleaned it up then.
A: But I think it still happened. I don't know whether it happenrd any more but it could
- it has happened but it didn't mean that much because it was never that close. Because
I can rememher it happened down here already where they had it wrong. And the guys
just transposed a number or wrote the tally wrong or made a wrong addition or something
like that. But at this particular time those feu- votes just made the differenre.
But there's an old story about how they used to - when they count them, when you were
on one side you could just read off, so many you know, and nobody checked it that closr. Or
if you \\-as good, you'd have a little pencil in your - and you'd just check and go along
- if you was one of the election . . .
Q: Judges.
A: . . . judges, right. You could take this thing and they said they was just a piece of lead
and they just put right there as they'd go down the line or something. I never seen it
happen. But you hear a lot of things. Naturally that time I got heaten that close, why naturally,
everybody came up with an idea.
Q: Well what werr they doing \vith this piece of lead'? You mean they were making the
ballot invalid or something?
A. No they'd just marh an X in that as they'd go down the linr
Q: Oh I ser. Change the vote
A: \Vhen you're late at night and nobody around, you know, they're supposed to have -
see, they nevrr even had \vatchers then really. Everyhod). got tired and \vent home and
the fivr or \vlrotcver \\.as on the board was thrre alone. And nobody too nruch interested
anywas-. Or where you'vr got one fellow who re;~lly is interested, why, h~ could just sit therr
and he could take - and he'd get the joh of reading thrm see, and handle them. And he
could just take kind of a sharp prncil like this and just put an X in evrry one of them if
he wanted to.
Q: 1'11 be darnrd. (rhucklrsi Well then do you rec;rll how soon that first tinrr that you
learnrd that you h:~d won thr election?
A
You mean - 1 11,st in thr first election
Q: No I mean in 1951 when you won
h:I thinh 1 won by a pretty hig majority that time. I was prett sure of myself that timr
(taping stopped to grret rustomer, then requmrd)
(3. \Vrll let's ser now, whrn you felt prrtty sure that you \verr going to win this rlrction,
how did you go about figuring out what you were going to haw to do when you werr reprcsentativr?
A: Oh I don't know. I just played it from day to day. I never celebrated or nradr a hig
deal about it. It \\-as just another one of thr affairs. I nevrr was :I pvrson nruch lo crlrhrate
on a victory or anything because you cuuld lose tomorro\v or so. You'vr got to play
il on an average. So I never did go overboard on that. Just like a lo1 of prople used to
make a lot of money, do somrthing and then pretty soon they was making big spuds. and
thrn the next timr they lose it, well then they're even. So whenever I made a lot of nronry
it didn't make me any differenrr whether I madr a deal or made a haul on it. It nrver
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

made me any difference or thought any different or spent any more money or rice tersa.
figured tomorrow >nu might lose the same amount.
I
Q: Well then let's see now, you knew that you were going to h:~w to 11' a
representative. Did you do some studying to come up to speed as to \vhat you \\-t.re ~ n i n ~
to do?
A: No, I didn't. See in those days, first starting out you only had six months see.
Q: Biennial
A: Yes. They had a fellow hy the name of Noble Lee who was nominated to instrurt the
newcomers on what to do and how to operate and so forth.
Q: How did he go ahout doing that!
A: How did he go about it? He'd just call and advertise it that they werr going to hare
a session that particular evening and then you could attend if you wanted to.
Q: They'd hare a dinner, did they? and then
A: Oh, I don't think to begin with we had dinner. We couldn't afford dinner. It was later
on I think we had dinner. See when we first went up there we didn't get much nlont'y and
didn't have much money to operate on, see, we only got $3,500 1 think it was, or $".75tl. I
forget which, one or the other.
Q: You remember anything about that course or those sessions with Nohle Lee'!
Q: He was a Republican of course
A: Yes he was a Republican but when >-ou got up there, it didn't make much difference to
you whatever you were. In fact in) opponents in the Republicans, they got to be really
closer to me than iny Democrats.
Q: Oh IS that right?
A: Yes like Olrl H. B, lhnen and Old Man Green
Q Old Man Green, uas that
A: Hugh Green from .Jacksonville. They were very good friends of mine. And Ihnen, he was
always very cooperative and everything. IIe and I thought a lot together. He was a farmer,
he owned farmland, and he was a businessman. And . . .
Q: Well when you first got up there there would have been a caucus for the leadership.
A: Yes.
Q: What happened at that caucus that year in 1!)54?
:I: Oh, let's see
Q: Or in 1955 it wouId have been
A: I can't recall if that's the first one or the second time when we had all the ruckus about
- and when De La Cour - that must have been later. I - I think . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Yes that \+-as later
A: I can't remember who the - oh, that's right, \Varrzn Wood was the - we didn't have
murh to do ahout that. We was in the minority then. That's right.
Q: Well. \!-hat ahout the leadership on the Democratic side then?
A: Well that was always taken for granted, Paul Powell or
Q: Oh it was? Well let's see, Paul Powell had been Spcaker the term hefr~rr was it?
A: I think it was yes. And taken for granted that he was going to he the minority leader
Q: )tad ?-ou known Paul Powell prior to that?
A: Oh, yes, he got me that job as arbitrator for the Industrial Commission.
SESSION 4, TAPE 6, SIDE 2
Q. What about the seating arrangement'!
A: I got the last seat in the House. Somebody told me that's the place to get so you rould
get in and out easy. A lot of people could visit you without being conspicuous. and I pot
it and I kept it. See, there was a door there and you got a seat right here and somebordy
could come in and see you, ant1 you could sneak out without anybody knowing yrlu was rlut,
anti give me a chance to see a lot of people and it helped out a whole lot that way.
Q: How did you happen to get that first go-round?
A: I can't remember who give me that information. Somebody told me to 1111 that, to get
hack there. And naturally it give me an in with all the fellows hecause when we hat1 a
meeting that's where we had it, was back there then. The group was alw;~ys together,
Carrigan and Clyde Lee and Bert Baker and IIolloxvay and that bunch, several of them from
Chicago. It was easy to congregate back there so they'd just sit around or congregate
around my desk.
Q: So you got in on mosl . .
.I: That give me an in \vith thm~ :ill of the time on anything thrn
Q: Did you have a seatmate hark there?
A: Oh yes, Pfeffer was nl) sratmatr most thr time. Let, Pfetfer
Q. Did you get pretty cltrse u-ith Leo?
.I: Yes, Leo \ras real rlose, although hr's an entirely tlifferent type of fellow than I
\vas. More hrusk, and rough. you knou.. He wouldn't stand hack for any trouhle. Where
I would try to stay out of it. he didn't avoid any. He was hiy enough he rtiul~i protect himself
pretty good. And he'd protwt me too. So that helped out a whole lot.
Q: Do you remember any partirular example of his leaping in?
A: Oh yes. I rememher one time somehody wrote something ahout him. That's another
thing that kind of helperl. He'd tell me a whole lot of the things. He knew how to
operate. In fact, I'd vote his - we had a hutton there for - afterwards, and I'd vot
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

it. TIalf of the time he wasn't there at all. He'd be doing sonrething else all of the time,
moving around somewhere. But one time somebody wrote something ahout him. .And this
guy passed and he just jumped right ovrr the railing right at him. He got him around the
neck and I thought sure he was going to choke him because, Christ, he's a t~ig muscular
guy anyway. And T had to do my damnedest to get them apart.
Q: To pull him off.
A: Ile wasn't no diplomat in the way he operated. Like he got chairman of a
committee. He ran it just the way he wanted to run it. He didn't do it
diplomatically. That was it. Bingo, he just . . .
Q: I'll be darned. (chucklrs) Did he gixe )ou any tips on how to go about
A: Oh ges. When I was the vicr-chairman of the Revenue Committee, Johnny Morris \\as
mostly too busy doing something else, Johnny was always spending taxes, and he turned
that job over to me. And I carried all the meetings. And Leo used to tell me hov to operate
that too. If you're the chairman of the committee, why, you pretty much control those
things. And he showed me what to do
Q: What were some of the things he told you how to do?
A: Oh just not recognizr anybody. If you decide you want something, just close the meeting
Q: WelI. (chuckles)
A: Get it over with
Q: You remember any particular bills that were put through that way?
A: Well yes. One time the hotrl tax bill. I got accused of that but I don't know who in
the hell didn't want that damned tax on. To me it didn't make that much difference. But
I was on it so we put a subcommittee and we knew we was going to put somehody on the
subcommittee who opposed it and we killed the doggoned thing anyway. But there's a lot
of ways of promoting or killing a bill in a committee if you know how to maneuver around,
a lot of that stuff. But you just don't recognize the other fellow if he - that's the important
part of having the chairmanships in the . . .
Q: What committees did you want to be on that first go-round?
A: Oh I was wanting to be on Roads and Bridges for one thing. Naturallb- I was interester1
in roads and bridges. And then I was always interested in conservation and I got on that
one too, the Conservation Department [Waterways, Conservation, Fish and Game
Committee]. But we always had to take a couple minority ones that didn't amount to too
much, see. They usually give you two good ones and then b-ou took two or three of them
that didn't amount to too much. A lot of times they'd conflict. You couldn't attend all of
them anyway so you'd just pick the most important one.
And Agriculture. Naturally I was on that committee. There wasn't too many, too man)
men - in fact they had to pick out a lot of fellows who didn't know a (damned thing about
agriculture to have enough on the Agriculture Committee.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Well you [didn't get on Agriculture that first go-round though, it was the second go-round.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Probably was I think, yes. I didn't know nothing about
Q: Now you were on Industry and Labor Relations that first time
A: Yes. That's the one I shouldn't have been on. Put me on that on account of I was arhitrator
for the Industrial Commission, I guess that's the reason they put me on that one.
Q: Do you remember anything that occurr~tl
A: In that particular - no I can't recall too much. Oh I remember one hill. I can't recall
too much about it though. A fellow by the name of - it wasn't Cosentino - there's a
Cosentino running now. It was Constidine, it could have been Constidint,. And we were
seatmates then. And I always rerall how we'd discuss a certain bill pertaining to some -
I ran't recall what it was anymore in that respect. Wr agreed all the time on it and how
we was going to vote. Then when it come time to vote, he had ~ Irhange I his vote. And
he sat there and cried because he had to change his vote.
Q: Oh, really? (chuckles)
A: But he was obligated to somebody. (pause) And I just swore I'd never want to get in
that position. I never was in that position. I could vote any way I wanted to vote. Nobody
ever high-pressured me to vote. Oh they used to try. These women, I remember one time
they had this, oh, what was it - inserticide, you know, and garden clubs and things like
that. They'd go fanatics on that stuff. And they don't know nothing about it to begin
with. They was getting ahold of everybody. Every time you went in the door or out of
the door of the house. I finally told one of them, I said, "Lady, I own about six hundred
acres of apple orchards. And lady," I said, "I own about six hundred acres of orchar~ls and
it's costing me" - I don't know if my spraying hill then it was thirty-five or forty thousand
dollars a year. And I says. ''1 only hope you have some solution \\'here I didn't have to
spend that." I said, "I happen to have a few acreages that I've kind of neglected and the
Lord sure as hell didn't take care of that."
Q: e l (chuckles)
A: She didn't knou what the hell to say
Q. Xoxv in the middle of the 1950's was there a Chicago hloc against a downstate bloc?
A: They called it bloc. That's what this Hagen used to say about the Chicago blor. I c:m't
remember if it was Divinski - not Divinski . . .
11: Derwinski and I don't know - a bunch of names hut - I don't know if it really existed
or not. They called it a \Vest Side Bloc, seven or eight. of them. And Paul Powell was supposed
to have their support.
In fact, whtan I got my ferry bill through, the West Side Bloc voted for me. The)- used to
kid about it, "What in the hell does the Nest Side Bloc know about :I ferry?" But they
were for me for some reason or another. I don't know why, whether 1 voted for something
with them. But they nwcr did put any pressure on me or ask me to - not that I ever
rerall anything about that thing.
Q: Ko\v they were Republicans
.4. They were Kel~uhlicans . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: . . .the West Side Bloc
A: . . . ye. Hut they went along with me on it, whether they did it on Powell's 1~1rt or
what it was, I don't know. But to me it was like a fairy-tale. I used to hear allout thrn~
sinking them in the ocean up there, put them in concrete hlocks and all that baloney hut
then that's like gangsters. I just never heard all that stuff. And I just never had anything
to do with thern. Just like all that money that's floating around you know. I nwrr sevn
any of it. .And whether it was mysterious or what, I don't know. Whether it was really
therc or not there. I've heen accused myself of making millions out of the legisl:~ture. S(J
now I don't deny it because if I denied it they'd say . . .
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q. You said that nohody ever showed you any money up there.
A: Yes.
Q. I was wondering, nou Paul Powell was kind of a whceler-dealer
A: Yes
Q: . . . according to most people. One of the things he used to do e\,illently ws when people,
new people, came in he'd do something for them like getting a hill startetl or \\.hatever. Did
he help you in that respect?
A: To get a bill through'!
Q: Right. They . . .
A: Well if you had any knack about getting anything done, knew anyglhing ahout the operation,
you knew you had to have PauI Powell to help \-ou out rtr yrtu - useless to proceed. So
you soon learned that, that you'd better talk it over wilh him first l~relly soon. 'rhere's
a story - getting back to sitting all in the bark - we'd get talking one day, we was wailing
for a bill to concur. And a fellow by the name of - oh he's sheriff for one term down
in St. Clair County, one of the counties doum south here. And rve was discussing things,
and finally [he said],"You know, I've heen here long, I've learned one thing." And Bert Baker
spoke up and said, "What do you mean?" He says, "Well," he says, "you know this Powell
and this Choate went to a different school than we did." Ant1 Carrigan was one of them
and said, "Well why is that?" And he says, "Well where I went to school they taught me
subtraction, division and addition." He said, "Where those two went, they sure as hell didn't
teach them any division."
Q: Well, I'll be darned. (laughter)
A: But Powell never offered you any nloney. lie never did offer me any mone) or - I think
one campaign one time. I think, the committee did senti in $200. That's as biggest extent
of a rontrihution as I've ever had.
But yes it \%,as a known fact around the circuit that Powell was supposed to have a campaign
fund to defeat Daley in anything. You'd get some control downstate to have a little something
to say about putting a man on the ticket. My observation of it was this way, that
Powell didn't ask them for any money hut the people who were on the end knew that if
they ever wanted anything, Powell was the nlan they had to see and if they had any money
to rontribute to\x,ards anything they'd give it to Powell. Powell didn't keep it trr spend it,
he just. put it in this kitty. And he would always say indirectly you know, something ahout
his boys, always he for the hays or something like that. But most people took it for -
put it in his kitty.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Maybe a lot of them was in. Like Bill Lyons particularly one time. Bill needed some
help. I know Bill, he got some money from him or they was supposed to make a loan and
then you're supposed to pay it back out of this particular kitty. Bill was always financially
troubled himself. He had a lot of had lurk from a health standpoint. IIis family had a
lot of health problems. And his boy had something wrong with him. And then mayhe
they'd have to spend a lot on operations. And them days you didn't make any money either
in the job as far as that goes and you had a lot of expense, so - hut I don't know as I
recall telling about the time they tried to heat Powell for Speaker. I don't know as that
was . . .
Q: No you haven't told about that. That was when? In 1957 was it?
A: I think so,
Q: In 1957 and 1959.
A: See I,yons and Dixon and all, we were all good friends. They decided the>- were going
to have Alan Dixon for Speaker. And they were real close to me too hecause I associated
with all the group. They made a trip up there, Bert Baker . . . and I think Grindle was
with them, could have heen. And a hunch of the boys. And I wasn't too familiar. That's
about my first term I guess or second term up there. I hadn't been in there too long hut
I did know enough that I wanted to go with then1 berause I wanted to belong to the
group. But I had sense enough to tell them that if Powell didn't want it, why, then I'd
go for Alan ilixon, see.
(2: Oh I see. (chuckles)
>l: And Powell heard that later on and that made Powell a very good friend and vtaunch
supporter of mine all the time. If I ever wanted anything from Powell I could almost get
anything I'd want from Paul Powell. That was a good move I made. Because I nevvr made
an>- of those boys mad. They still remained my friend. In fact, Alan Dixon was down for
dinner here the other night and ate dinner with nle. Why I did that I don't know. It \\-as
just one of those things.
Q Well in 1957 Daley was wanting De La Cour
.A: De La Cour, that's right. I was roming down on the train I remember, and they had
that all set. They said that De La Cour was going to be the Speaker. And then 1 went
with Powell that time too. I don't know whether that was a different time or the time
hefore.
Q: No that was in 1957 I helieve that - when it occurred so . . .
A: Yes.
Q: . . . it would have heen your second term. What do you rememher about that fight? The
caucus there - the leadership caucus, I understand, split that year.
A: Was that the year they tried to get Dixon in too?
Q: I don't recall the Dixon
A: I can't recall. We had se~eral fights there on that, ahout the speakership. But that Dr
1.a Cour fight was a mean one that time. That's when Bill ('lark and I was good friends
too. And I'owrll had a go against Clark. Powell is a maneuverer though. He could get mad
and then he could change over and pass it up and he finally appointed Clark for something
to kind of pacify him and heal things over. \Veil that's what it takes to he a good politician
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

I guess. Hini and Stratton both are that way. They could fight like hell but when they come
- and then Dale)- too, they all three of them, they all operate together, all three of
them. Hell, I was in with theni on deals where the)- could give here ant1 give there. And
for the benefit of a11 of theni. they all got something. And the state was better off really
in that deal. But that's when Daleg- was mayor and Stratton was governor. And Poivell
was Speaker. They did a lot of maneuvering.
Q: Well that \vould have heen, let's see. 1957. I guess also the 1959 session
A: 1 can't rementher the years anymore. But I think that must have been the year that
I was on the Revenue Committee. Because that's when they had ti] have the half a rent
s;iles tau or they was going to he earmarked. Then they had a lot of trouble with the CTA
[Chicago Transit Authority] and they was needing the money for it. And they done a lot
of maneuvering around at that time.
Q: I understand Stratton and Daley did get along pretty well together.
A: They got along real good, yes. They'd trade, vice versa.
Q: What was your relationship with (:overnor Stratton? Did you meet him?
A: Real good. Oh yes, Stratton - you fh.lt ;it ease when you talkctl to Bill you knu\v, You
could talk to him. Talk your language. Hr aas like myself, I don't think he had too much
education as far as schooling was concernrd. Hr had a lot nf experience because he travcled
with his old man probably. He \\.as in politics. And hr knew the state. You cuulii t:ilk:
that's what I liked about him. You coul~i takh, a ~lelvg;itii~n in and say, "Oh, he>-, ho\i-'s ahout
my friend so-and-so down there?" or "1s that bridge o\Pr there still there?" or
something. And the people felt as if you did sonirthing and J-ou were son~ebodg-, you
know. You'd take some of these other governors that woulii go in there anti, hell, they cared
less and didn't know nothing about the damned thing. They didn't brief themselves any about
it to begin with.
Q: lie knew where Brussels was then
A: That's right. Ant1 the other people figured, "Well, hell, he nevcr said nothing ahout it
and you didn't do ni~thing." So it nude a had image on g-IIU. Where Bill, he would let the
group go out thinking that you were on the hall, that you had made a deal with him and
talkrd to him about it and he knew what the he11 you was talking about.
Q: Well did groups come up very often like that?
A: Oh yes, you'd have delegations all the time. They used to think that was the way lo
get anything done. Always some group, school group, road group or something that's . . .
Q: Did you ever have them kinti of influence your vote because they were in the gallery?
A: No. Some fellows did that. I never did. I wasn't no speaker, I was handirapped in (hat
respect. I couldn't speak good so I didn't make any attempt to do it. Another thing, I \\.as
handicapped too, and different than a lot of other politicians, 1 hail to l)e in the public ;ill
the time. I couldn't hide. These other fellows would go home and then their \vifh, \\.oulli
go to the door and say you weren't there.
Q: I see
A: Well I had to be here all the time. They could come in here and sce me anytime. And
I couldn't tell this gu) he's not here. I had to see him whether I ~rantcti tt] see h~nt or
not. I was available a11 the time. And it made a lot of difference I know a lot i ~ times f
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

other people would go see until they got tired of seeing him because, hell, the wife would
say, "Well, he's not here, come back," and he'd go back agaln. Well, hell, he's st111
there. But I didn't have that opportunity because I was open to the public all the time,
and . . .
Q: Did that cause you any problems? Were you frustrated by that?
A: No. Seemed like I was gifted to be able to say what I think without worrying too much
about it.
Q: Without people taking offense and that sort of thing?
A: Yes. Or me worrying too much about it. I guess if you worried much about it, I think
that you'd be in a quandry. I think that's a gift I had. I don't know how I'd attribute
it to. But if I'd made a deal, okay, it was a deal. If it was a rotten one - I think again
that helped out [that] the Jewish people taught me some of that. If you get into something,
get the hell out; was the best one . . . (laughs) . . . go ahead and do it. Get rid of it and
get in a new one, and vice versa. If I made a mistake, okay, I made a mistake. And I
wasn't afraid to make a mistake.
Q: Did you ever get caught having given your word on a bill or something and then found
out you shouldn't have . . .
A: No, I ne\.er was caught in that position. I was always cautious to not promise too
much. What 1 was trying to say, what I did I wouldn't go out here and promise a whole
lot. Even when I was campaigning I wouldn't go out here and tell them a hell of a
lot. Somebody was wanting a job or anything I wasn't going to promise them a joh. That's
where a lot of them got into trouble. Then the>- couldn't produce a job and then got into
a lot of difficulty that way.
Q. Did you have certain individuals that you turned to for information up there on suhjects
that you weren't particularly up on?
A: Well yes. Well, when I first went up, just like your schools, nobody else knew
anything. I knew less. And these little schools, you elected a school hoard and you didn't
know anything about it. You were just on there. So naturally when you get up there you
have a lot of problems.
I remember Liberty out of Quincy, for instance, they was having a lot of prohlems at that
particular time. And attended a meeting up there and people were sentimental, more so
then than they are now. They began to realize now that they can't be that way. Every
little town thought theie children should have just as good an education or - somebody
taught them that. That was the old sing-song you know. And Liberty thought because they
had a high school there, they ought to have everything that Quincy had. Well Quincy had
to get all the utility plants and everything else and the taxpayers, well, they had a big disadrantage
and they couldn't get it. And they were always complaining.
I remember we went up to a meeting. I went to a meeting up there. Well you'd hear them
talk about nlillions and millions of dollars and then, hell, I'd sit there and I didn't know
a hell of a lot more and none of the rest of them knew less. So I decided I was going to
find out something about it you know. I got tired of going to meetings and didn't know
what the hell the score was.
And so 1 thought, started to inquire, and I rememl~er a fellow by the name of George
Wilson. He was on the Republican side. Him and George Ihnen were serving
then. George said, "Hell, Carl, 1 don't know nothing about the damned thing," he said.
"Only one guy around here knows anything about that, and that's ('harlie Clabaugh."
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Oh yes
A: Said, "Talk to him." So I went to Charlie and then I spent some time with him and
he laid all of it out on a requisition base and all that. And I knew a little, you knon, the
generality ahout it. And I made a real stud!- of it.
So then 1 went out to a lot of these school boards and 1 went and told them - I'd go before
them and I'd tell them this way. 1 said. "I don't want you to feel embarrassed. Now you
just actually have got . . ." and then I'd tell them exactly how I felt. I said, "I went to
these meetings, 1 didn't know a damned thing, arid. I was determined to tinil out." I said,
"And I want you to feel the same way." They xere all professional people and I said, "I
xant you laymen just to ask me whatever you want to know." 4nd I went to a blnrkboard
and I explained it to them how your attendance and so forth applied to the state aid that
you received and vice versa and all that. And I had more people thank me after
that. Because, hell, they'd sit on boards for years and didn't knom a damned thing ahout
it either.
Rut they felt embarrassed, they didn't want anybody to knom they were ignorant on it. And
I explained that's the way I was. (laughs) I said, "I was ignorant ahout it and didn't know
anything and I want you to know that that happens. And if there's anything you don'l knom
you just feel free to ask." And they'd ask questions and I'd explain to them. And I'd had
more people later on, as I said, come up and thank me, that they felt the same way, they
didn't know anything ahout it. And so I went around to a lot of different srhools and told
them exactly how our school setup was.
Q: We11 let's see, the property tax modifier was coming in about that time
A: Yes.
Q: And I think that was caused primarily hecause of the school situation wasn't it?
A: On our assessment deal
Q: Equalization.
A: We was assessed unfairly. You'd get a popular assessor who everybody liked. Hell, if
he liked you, he'd cut your taxes down, if you had :i lot of influence and vice versa. So then
they pot this multiplier coming along. Supposed to equal it up. I don't knon. whether lhat's
good or bad.
Q: Well, what was your position on that as they were discussing whether to apply the . . .
A: Well I meant that it was all unfair. I've been against the whole setup and against -
my theory on taxes is altogether different than anyhody else's anyway. I used to argur with
Paul on sales tax. They used to argue that the poor people pay a11 the sales tax. I had
to disagree with them because my associates, they weren't poor people. They were, you
know, medium people, medium size. But rvery damned one of them was broke too. And
they spent all they made. So hell, they had to pay more money than the little man paid. If
you only made three thousand and spent it, if this guy makes fifty or sixty anti spent it
all, he paid a hell of a lot more than this guy who made three or four. Rut it seemed like
I could never get that through most of them's head because they thought the fellow who
made that hig money keeps it all. But ninety percent of my associates, hell, they're a11 hroke
to begin with.
Just like I had a fellow in here the other day. He's a broker friend And we got to talking
about a fellow we know. And we got talking about what he makes. He lives out in L:~(lue
[ Missouri]. I said, "How in the hell does he live out there" Row much money does he"
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

- "Oh." he said, "he makes eighty five, ninety thousand dollars a year." I said, "Ilo\\ in
thr hell can he live out in Ladue, out in that areal" Because I hail this friend of mine
I rvas telling you about, he had some home out there and I knew what he had in it. He
said, "That's the reason he can't drink beer and whiskey and play cards with you," he
says. "He hought a home, he paid $35,000 for it to start with. So he got it paid down a
little on it and got equity in it, and so then inflation took care of it and it got ~ I be I worth
up in the $'75,liOlJ hracket. So they gave him $75,000 or something on a $185 or $190,000
home. And he still owes over one hundred and some odd thousand. He's paying sixteen
percent interest." We had it figured out he was paying ahout $2500 n month pa>-nrrnt on
the danlned thing And when he took his salary, he got up in the 60 percent hracket, so
hr took home only 40 percent of his pay, so that brings it down. Time he took his interest
and his payment off of his home - then he had to rent a Mercedes and he paid $567 for
it a month, and then he had to havr a jeep or a four-wheel drive for his kids - hr didn't
have enough to go around. But a lot of people don't understand it. So he spent every nickel
he had.
My theory is this: if we'd just put a sales tax, 10 percent sales tax or n-hateier it is, on
every nickel everybody spends, we wouldn't need nothing else. I don't likp this tax where
you have to keep all these books and records. Everybody's cheating, and if >-ou don't get
caught, you get by. If you get caught, you go to jail, and everyhody lives in jeopardy. you
knoa. He wonders if he's going to get caught. And if they had a tax system where yi,u
paid as you go - whatever it is, make it high enough to take care of all of our expenditures
- you wouldn't have that problem. But you've still got people who argue that that's hard
on the poor peoplr. Well, I don't know whether they'd pay an>- more prrcentage than they
do now. I don't think they would.
Q: When you first went into the house, there w:ls the question of incorn? tas, whether thry
ought to be authorized or not.
A: I was for income tax. I I alwab-s believed in people who make it pay it, that's m> theory
to. That's the reason I said just like these people who make hig money, lrt them qrenrl
it and if you'd make a couple of hundred thousand dollars, you sprnd it all, you're going
ti] pay it in taxes. Spend it. That's the wab- most of them do. ,ill the people I know, they
don't save any money. Hell, they just spend it. I think our people ar? tauxht wrong in
a way. They think that sonieboiiy up here, higgies, got all the money, bnt just like when
they lose money, well hell, he don't make any more nlonej- :lnd he's hurt just as bad as the
other fellow is and rice versa.
Q: Your philosophj there sounds a little bit morr Republican than it is Democrat. 1s
that.. .
Q: You ever have any prohlems in that sense?
A: In thr house?
A: Well I did, yes. And they used to kid me ahout it, said I belongetl to thr other side
of thr aisle. But I was for the poor peugle herause I was poor myself. kit I happened
to mingle with the other side too. And you get the wrong ideas atiout it. The>-'re not fair
in their thinking.
Q: n'ell now let's see, in thinking nf Paul Powell, hark in 1949 and into 1950 - the early
1950's - they had ruade adjustments in the legislation so that you rould put this sort of
thing on harness racing. And he had . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

:\: HP got in on
'1: . . . hecause I \va.;n't allowed to yamhle at home. \Ve \\-as so strict on yamhling. 1 was
always interestcii in ya~nbling and I wanted to learn how to play cards. I yot to he thtz
hest cardplayer in the country, or hcst gamtller I'll say in all ways. And I n.:is liheral in
that respwt bec:aus~ after my nlother's, "You're sure going to go to hell." I fourr(l c~ut that
yuu sure as hell wasn't going to go to hcll hecause you're gambling yc~u know 2nd vice
versa. \Yell, you get those nuts.
So I votrti for a11 that, and not~otiy even had to ask mr8. I think that's one reason I got
a lr~t of favors from other people, t~ccausr they didn't h;t\-p 10 ask me to go along on a lot
of thos~ things. I did it hecause I believe that \Yay. I argu~tl against Stevenson on slot
machines. 1 figured if you want to gatntlle, let them yalnblr. Antl whatever they want to
I . I . And nut tr1- to make lairs to - that's what I'm against, a lot of these in the legislature
today they are alwiys for those ethnic groups that's - they've got more damned littlp
things that aggravate your people to death that don't mean a thing.
Q: YIIU n~entionr~il Stevenson there.
Back in 1951 he h;iri turned the state police loose
'1: Yes, I hail a 11i~ :lrgltmrnt wit11 him over that
Q: Oh?
.1: I was n-l,rkinK i'r~r him at that time. I had slot machines here - an11 my n:lrn(> \\away
up on tr~p of thc list someways or another, on account of Brussels or what it \\-:IS. .2nrl
I got a lot of kiiliiirry ;ihout that from the people around.
l3ut 1 used lo argur with hin~. I Tvas telling him, "1 had a friend of mine here, tlr rvas a
fellolv who - Charlie," 1 said. "They call him Charlie Zimmerman, was his n:lnlr. ,And
he's inherited a rou11le farms, and hc hammed around here. IIe was just one nf Ihu.;r types
of fellows. He just ncvcr worked, you knn\~. IIe dilly-dallied around. And he corlle in iir~cl
hc il-ould plah the slot mathines. HI. nw'r had much money ever. Owned the land hut
never had much cash. And he'd spend a r.oul)le of hucks. :And in those days rvc hail some
inHuential peoplc come in here like Mayor Coifman's xvifr. Mrs. Stremler here. IIer hushand
nas prosecutor, St. Louis. Anti they'd come up here for a drive for dinner. And they'd
he at the har, and they said, '('harlie, 11lay us a roll of these and split the jackpot.' And
so Charlip \~~ould play and they rvoul11 sit arni~rrd herc a cr~uplc hours. And Charlic had a
lot of fun and nobody ever non anything.
Hell, then we got the bingo tree. And Charlie would have a quarter or lifty cents to spend
anti somehnd>- else 51-ould say, 'Charlie, poll off a dollar's worth. and we'll split it.' Charlie
n.oulil pull the \vhnle damned tree off ant1 nohoti>- ever rvon nothing. And," I said, "the!-'vc
done away with slot machines, done away aith the bingo tree, Charlie don't have five rcnts
more now than 11r h:ld l~raf(~rc."
Stevenson's argum~nt was 1-ou took the money away from the poor. That was his :~rgon~cnt
against me, and I said, "The people I kno51-, you ain't taking anything axyay fr~~rn Lhcn~. 1
guess maybe I'm :I little cruel in that respect. 1 al51-ays figurrd you ought to he traincii
enough to know to take rare of :-ourself. You don't, you ought to have a ~uar~lian to t-k!.
care of you, maybe.
Q: Where did you iiiscuss this with Stever~son?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: Oh, in his ofice, many a time. I used to talk to hirr~ a lot. I was quite an admirer of
his. He's a very intellectual sort of a fellow. Hell, Po\vell didn't like hirn. I knew
that. And he give me my job because I hall a reputation that I u-ouldn't take,
see. Somehod>- give him that idea. And I rerr~ernt~er I \vent to several of his - when he
made a speech, I think it \\,as in Chicago one time. I had a hox seat up there someplace.
And he could talk way above n lot of people's heads, the trouhle \\-ith Stert~nson.
Me and this young Stevenson though, I just never did associate with him. I went to a fen.
campaigns with him some. His wife, I liked her vvry well. But I could never get close to
him. I don't think anybody else can either.
Q: Is he the samv type as his father then. is it
1: KO. I don't think he's gifted as well as his father. His father had some qualities there
that he - he could think pretty fast and he could come out - he was very articulate in
his speech. And this here young man doesn't have that image like his old man does. But
that's to my thinking. I hope he gets elected governor. I don't know whether he can or
not. I hope he does. I think he'd be honest hecause in the house nohody could persuade
him. He studied, he worked hard, he was there at his desk all the time, hut he just didn't
mingle with nobody and to get anything done in the house you've got to . . .
4: . . . mingle around a little hit or you don't get nothing done. That's to my
thinkiny. Now mayhe somebody else might have an entirely different version of what you
should do. Rut I always thought that if you're elected for your area you're supposed to get
something, that's what you were elected for, to get something for your area. (laughs)
Q: Oh I see
A: If you can't dl) that, why, you wasn't worth a damn
Q: Ycs. lchuckleli~ Well. Who was your closest associate the tirst >ear up there?
.A: Oh, I never tiid associate with any of them to really go out because I wasn't the type
to go out and I never got drunk, see, or go out and drink hecause I could never drink :I
lot. I never did care for it to begin with. And I was too tight to begin with too, I guess. 1'11
never spen~l a lot of money around. I didn't go out every night to somepiare. I used take
my bookwork, a lot of my work if I didn't have at home here to (lo. do a lot of my n\vn
bookwork there, I'd take it along up thcre to do from here, or . . .
(taping stoj~pu~l
greet customers, then resumed)
Q: You say you'd take )-our home\vorL from here up to there?
;I: Yes I use11 to take a lot 11f it up and do it in my ruoni and things like that. I never
I>un~mt.,I arountl much when I was tirst up there. I think ihat was a assot in a \v;~y. It's
iike that was the reason I didn't n-ant my nephew to get up there because he was pretty
young yet. .And it can make :I burn out of you pretty easilh. I've seen so many fellnn~
go had up there where you're not old enough. I was >oung enough but I n-as too t)us> I
guess lo get involved in too many things. Because it's tr~npting as hell to. you hnow, sit
around and drink.
Q: I understand that happened to Alan Dison when he tirst went up there, that he got to
running around a little hit.
A: Got tu playing around a little bit yes, yes. I used to hum around with Alan though. But
he wasn't as had as a lot of them were. He might have heen. But I neb-er hear11 too much
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

about him. But Bill Lyons \\-as grrat for tl~nt. It ruined his hralth really !inally. Rill drank
a hell of a lot. He liked to sing and he'd get out every night soniepl:ice and go out cverlnight
somewhere. And Grindle was grrat for that too. Grindle did it for a while.
Q: \Villiam Grindle?
A: Y e I'feffer loved to play cards. He liked to be out playing cards. That's another thing
where 1 got my education when I was a kid, becausr I stayed asray from cartis n.11t.n I ~ o t
away from hnmc see. I aln,ays thought that if you don'! knosr- who you're gambling xith,
not to gamt~le. I \rant to he in control. To hell with letting the other fello~!. I know I
told Leo one night - we were out and Leo was drinking - he went down. I think I give
him four or five hundred dollars and he had to hare some more. And I said. "Leo." I said.
"have you had your education yet? I-Iell," I said. "I had mine when I W:IS seventeen years
old. It didn't cost me near as much."
Q: Yes sir. (laughter) Well. Wherr ~litl you nurmally stay?
4: St, Kick Iiutel.
Q: That was Democratic headquarters then,
A: That was headquarters, !es. You could - in those days you could see 13-hocver you
wanted to see either in the St. Nick, the Leland or the 4be Linroln. You made the round
and naturally anybody in town. you'd get to see them. That's where they were. In latrr
years now it's entirely different. It's not like it was then.
(1: I understand Paul Powell used to set up, usually latr in the evening
A
Yes ever)- night.
Q: . . . on toward midnight.
A: We usrd to sit around there. I'm a great man for that too. I'm in the habit of that
yet. I never go to bed now till two o'clock, probably. I read or play cards or do sonrething
now. I kno!~ I've got some friends of mine, they'rr disgusted and my girlfriend, she raises
hell. She wants to go to her1 early. And I like to stay up late.
But Powell would do that. Hr'd sit there at St. Nick Hotel and chew the rag. 11nd I a1n.a~~
remember Opie Greathouse, hr was running the hotel, and a fellow by the name of Armstrong.
he \\-as around there then. One night we got a barrel of oysters in and Opie drcitlrd
to open them up. They come in, fresh oysters. So we had nysters down there. On 0~~ic.
naturally. Polvell never paid for nothing. You'd have to pick up the tab if you werr wing
to go for that.
Q. Is that right" You remember what you used to talk al)~)ut"
A: Oh, everything. Anything in general, tell stories. l'owell was great ahuut telling about
his southern Illinois, emphasize on how he had a tough time when hr was a kid. I guess
he did, I guess niaylle he did. I never knew him, you know, before he went trl Springtirld.
But just frorn hearing his side of thc story, huu he was in business too - he knew I was
in husiness and then he'd tell about him hring in thr grocery business and the restaurant
husiness :ilul a lot of the problems he had. And then he'd tell about his experience one
time ahuut - who nas it running against him? Was it - I think John Stelle opposed him
on? time, I had so damned many stories about it I can't recall. But one time - 15-r were
always kidding about - I brought up the minister froin up her? to say the prayer for one
u-eek. Pretty popular fellow from around here. And first time it had ever happened in the
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

district. Powell said, "YIIu'~ h~tter watch out. Ile'll be running against yo11 the next
time." That's what happened to hini. He said he brooght the minister up there and said,
"The next term, why hell, the minister liked it so well he just . . ."
Q: Stayed, huh? (chuckles)
A. IIe was his opponent the next election
Q: I'll be darned. I understand that Dixon and Simon and McCarthy and Mann
A: They were ralled the Young Turks, they called them up there. They kind of stuck
together on some things. One of them is in Chicago. He wpnt to he a congressman. What
was his name?
Q: Let's see, Mikva?
A: Mikva, Mikva. They were all friends. Mikva was a pretty good friend of mine. They kind
of handed together, more against Powell than anything else. But I stay~d with I'owell all
the time, even though they were friends of mine, hut I always went with Powell. That's
the reason a lot of people thought that we were in business together, I guess. In fact t h ~
Internal Revenue come down here and stayed with me a couple weeks. They thought that
I was in business with Powell.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Yes. When he died. But there was nothing like that. He never ever said anything to
me. It was just understanding that he needed anything I went the way I thought he would
want me, and he did what I'd want. I didn't have to ask him. He just did it automatically.
Like he knew I wanted this ferry down here, and I didn't ha1.e to go and talk to him about
it, he just understood it.
Q: LVhen did you start pushing for the ferry?
A: Oh 1 tirst tried to get a hridge, see
Q: Oh you did.
A: Yes. I ha11 a c~~ur~le of pieces of realty studies too to get a hridpe but that niwer was
feasible. 1 got thirty-five one time, seventy-five thousand, and finally I was beginninl: -
hell, it was just a waste uf money. throwing the money away getting these iianrned
studies. And then Bill 1,yons was smart enough - I think Bill, he knew how to operate,
I didn't. Bill I think was g~tting a rut out of that, whoever would g ~ the t contracts for
the studies, see.
Q: I'll be darned. (laughter)
A: He knew how to operate. He'd tinaple around some way or another.
Q: I see. And then so tinally you just abandoned the bridge ronrept
A: Yes. An11 took the ferry yes. By that time we had a different influx of people ron~inp
in and people can begin to see the bad effects a bridge would have. And so the>- decided
they didn't wr.:lnt a bridge. And so now they're glad they don't have a bridpe.
Q: What would be the bad effects?
A: Lye11 it would bring everybody in here. And this way it's secluded and that's the way
they want to keep it.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I see.
A: In fact they've got some in now they don't want. They wish they were out. If I had
started a little sooner in zoning and made it a little tougher to get in - hecause it's a privilege
now to be up here. You know, it's kind of costly deal, it will cost you more to live
here than any place in the country. People from St. Louis, they do own a place up here,
they "Well we're going up to our island." See, it's just about like Ted Kennedy out in Massachusetts
going over to his island. Well, they're going up to their island. It's about the sarne
thing.
Q: Well then you've indicated here that there was generally ;I bloc of downstaters from
southern Illinois, sort of thing And then there was a group of kind of Independents like
Simon and Mikva and that bunch
A: Sinion yes. Simon, he was kind of a loner in that respect for a long time. He wasn't
for Po\\zell. He went with Powell a lot of times on some things I think, as he needed
Poaell. But Paul and I disagreed too. We were friends, Paul Simon and I. But I could
never agree with him on a lot of his thinking. Naturally he knea what hc was doing. And
he was successful politically. And he was great for the little man. He was always coming
up with some kind of bill to protect somehody, something on that order. It seemed like
that was the trend, up to this time.
Q: Yes
A: But he opposed anything pertaining to gambling or anything. I alwab-s remember the
racetrack hill. One particular bill. As I said before, any racetrack bill I just went along
because I believe if you want to play the ponies, okay, play the ponies. It didn't makc no
difference to me. I never even went. I'd get tickets and never even take the time to go
to the tracks. But once a year they'd take us down there for dinner, I'd usually go then.
Many a time instead of going there I'd come horne and worked here.
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q: What racetrack was this that was involhed? Over at Cahokia or what one?
A: No, at Cahokia one time they had a bill. And so they knew Paul Simon opposetl all those
bills you know. He just had the reputation of opposing everything. And this one parti1:ular
time, why, they knew there was no use for Powell to speak or Choate to speak because they
figured they was all in on tbe racetrack deal then and nobody would pay any attention to
them. Rut picked Clyde Lee out this time. Clyde would speak. So everybody respected
CIS-de pretty well. He wasn't the hest speaker but he said something, people wouId pay
attention to him. He wasn't like Alan Dixon and Powell. Powell they always paid a lot
of attention to, but Choate and a lot of the others, they would just talk and nobody paid
a lot of attention to them while they were speaking. But they picked Clyde Lee out. But
they had to rehearse with Clyde as to what to say.
So the bill was called and sure enough, why, they had an objection from Paul Simon. Paul
gets up and he starts raising hell with Buster Workman's cigarette machines. I forget what
the he11 else he had, something else there, about - oh peoplr of ill-fame character owned
the horses and interest in it. And about the prostitutes. So somebody made an objection
to Paul getting off base, but Paul had this all arranged. He says, "That's alright. Just
let Mr. Simon . . ." just because he wanted the other guy to be able to sag ahai he wanted
to say.
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q: So - and you say Paul wanted him to keep on talking
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: Oh atlout - yes, hr shall have your torn. .And sure enough somebodv else made a few
remarks. And then hr got Clyde Lee's recognition. They had it all planned. So Clyde gets
up and he reads it ail of. He had it all planned on. He says, "I've picked out some prominent
hankers from over, in eastern Illinois around Olnel- and over in there that way" -
and Laxrence Fillen said - who had interest in some raerhorses, he said - "I dare you
to question . . ." and every Republican was on top, "I dare anybody to question their character
and su forth." And naturally every Republican here went a\vaj- and you know they
were all big Republicans, you - these names you'vr mentioned - he had that all rehearsed
hefore.
Q: Yes.
A: And he said about the cigarette and Mr. Simon mentioned ahout the cigarette
machines. He says, '$1 don't know if that makes any dilTerence. You can buy your cig;~rettes
someplace else." And then he went on about a frxi- more things. And then he said,
"What about the prostitutes?" He says, "I don't knon. nothing about it." FIe says, "I've
never seen any, but if Mr. Simon says they're there, they're there."
Q: Well! (laughter)
A: Poor old Paul, he
Q: Kind of took the wind out of him. (chuckles)
A: The board went on and the green light went on ;111 over. But they had planned on that
one for a long time because they knew he was going to lla\.e a lot of opposition on the damned
thing.
Q: Well. What was his reaction to that sort of thing?
.A: Who, Paul?
Q Yes
.A: Paul could takr it. That's one thing :rbout him, he could take drfrat. And wouldn't
bother hini.
(2: ryere there those that couldn't take defeat? I tinderstand that John Tl~iihy for exan~lllr
woul(1 get kind of . . .
A: Yes. John \i-otild get marl. John never did like me, somr reason or otlirr. I dun't knniv
\\h? l l and ~ I wasn't close at all, I don't knt~\r why. And he's a hell of a nice f~llu\v they
tell me, a high-type of fello\v. Liut I rould never figure it out. And it didn't hothrr nit. any.
1 didn't \\-ant nothing, didn't ask for it.
Q: Hayhe he thought you were too mu1.h of a southern illinoisian to
:I: Could have hern. Rut I got along with most of them, likr George Dunne. George Dlinne
was ;I real good friend of mine. I always thought he was a high caliher sort of a
felloiv. Kenny Rendt was another one. And 1,illian Piotro\vski, she was a judge up
there. I always really liked her. She was raal close to nie at the time.
Q Was ahr the softhall plav~r or something"
A: Xu, she's a Polish gal. Then one of the black boys up there, a big tall guy, I used to
go ...
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.\: Yo, Cecil and I didn't - he's real - I mean this is a handsome-looking guy, :I big guy
Q: Oh.'
.\: Oh gosh. Going to Chicago I used to always gi\-e him a ring, and he'd come over to the
Shernian Hotel and I'd have lunch with him.
(2: Jenkins'.'
.A: So it wasn't Jenkins.
I'd have to look a1 the Blue Book
.\: No it vasn't Arnistrong. Gosh thal's a shame that 1 don't knoiv, remember his
n;imt,. . . . I should pick up a Blue Book and if I'd look at the book I coultl rt,memt)r,r thr
I1;IIllP.
J : s . Now let's see, George Dunne \\-:IS kind of a leader during that time, wasn't hr'!
1: 1)unnr was, yes, some type of a - I ran't renremher what he \\.:I:: :lnymorr, i)ul he isas
kind of a leader, yes. IIe didn't socializr too much, go out anrj - fact, many a night hr
and 1 used to just take a stroll after dinner and just walk around an11 kill timr maylje for
an hour or so. Him and two or three other guys, some of the boys n.h(l didn't drink rnr~ch
or didn'l care ahout going out or anything. thry'd just pass away tinil' I,\- sornelhing like
;I little eserrise. get outside.
Q: Thr only other black that comes to mind at that time was (:orncal llaiis
.A: Oh he was quite an effective speaker. I ali~ays got along \vr.ell with him. 13111 lie's not
the one that I had in mind.
L): I guess Corneal Davis rii~l an arr-ful lot of coming down anti getting the IilncL ~wol,lr lo
support . . .
Q: . . . ('hoate and lhat sort of thing
.4: Yes he was quite an orator. And it seemr(1 like hc was pretty fair all thr ~inir. llim
and Powrll got along pretty good.
Q: \Vhu else was in the leadership froni Chicago at that time? \V:is John Ttiuhj coming
up'!
:\: Touhy was Speaker at onr time, yes Touhy. Rill Clark - Bill
Q: Evidently you were somewhat related with Bill Clark'! You . .
(1: . . . associated with him?
A: Yes we usrd to bum around together. I don't know. He ha11 a herd of cartlr ir-hen his
dad died down in Arkansas. And I was in lhe cattle busin~ss and I \\-:IS going to go down
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

thrsrr. ant1 Iru) them. And I don't knon \\-hat lral~prnrtl to the deal anymore. Mr. \\-;IS a clean-
~:ut looking I'ello\~- and I thought sonleila\ lir'tl h~ governor or something. '3n1l hc had
111lty. Srr. Ive used to havr- a lot uF )JOYS nut nT ('liicag~~ h \\-nul(l o conre dr~\vri lit'rt' ;in11
thrly were hard to sell on thtx state tivket !ou knots.. K~rner - Kerner \\-as easy 511111, th1.y
coulri scll him. t~ut I\-? had a lor of Chicago buys nho ~voi~lti come ti~~~vn hcrr ant1 th~,y'~l
try lo go out here :In11 took them around and yuu n-as han~licapped in selling thcni k~t,cn~isr
first place there \\as tcici nil~rli Chicago in them to start \vith. Anti thtx\- ~iirln't krion ritlthing
about the rural arr;r at all. Uut Clark \\.as nirc-looking anri clean-crrt looking, an11 spt~riir~(l
like h~ hati the al)ilily to catch on rtd quick. nut him :in11 D:il~,y niu.

Q: Oh to have Jersry ('aunt)"
.A: Yes
Q: Why not?
A: Well because, see, my good friends. like Joe Knight and Bill FVatts and Frank I'o\vers
and all the keh- Demtlcrats here \rho u-ere my personal friends, they were - Joe was tied
up with the Chicago boys and the organizati~~n to promote two legislators from the district
and thry thought 1 was going to run so heavy that they advocated two or thrrr votes for
mr and - split the vote ~lown in this district, elect t\\-n of them. And >lcl,airr, hr ngrrecl
to do that, but hr went up in Adams County and he pluggrd three for him. hnri gosh, hr
suamped me. I only got beat by 1,100 votes that limr Ihnen heat me by 1,100. .lnd hr
ran at~out 20.000 ahead. MacClain did.
Q: Because of the
:\: hly friends is the ones that promoted it. Joe gels up at t h state ~ park, hig deal over
there, and MrLain is crying hc wasn't going to get no votes. JIJP gets u11 and tells the guys
not to vote three because they figured they was going to plug thrrr for nir donn hrrr, which
theh- would have ser. He pleaded with thcn~ to dividc it up. Gir~ Jinr >lcl,ain a half a
vote anyway. Elect tjvo.
Q: Llid they plug you down here in this area?
A: Before that, in Jersey ('ounty. oh my God, ycs. This was my strongholrl. That's thr \\a!.
that n-as the danger of that. That's the reason not~o(ly takes a chance any Irmgrr Thr)
nouldn't take a chance \vhrn that was in operation. You \\-ere just going tu go uul :tnd grt
all you could get.
But the Democrats ryere so in rrrrd of these seats that thv\- \\-antvrl to xrt control of thr
House. And Joe being one belonged to the organization, hv ~vantetl - and I had the irr nn
it. Sec these were all my friends that was promoting that, Brovkhousr frorri over hrrr at
C'onror~i and all the fellows, they nras running :iroun~l, making trips aruund sa>-inn that, "\Vr
can elect two of them here. Just don't give Wittmond :ill th~, \-II~I>s." scr.
Q: Gerz. (chuckles)
A: They \\,as so sure I was going to get in that . . .
Q: You know they finally did an-ay with that cunu~lati\r vcltinl: thing. FVp1.v yoo in favor
of ...
A: 1 was in favor of it. yes
Q: Because of that ty11e reason?
:I: Yes
Q: Kin11 11f fights within thv party
,\: That's right. See what happened, the part>- was always fightinl: rile. 1 nvvc,r \\;is in \\ itll
the party rrally, you know, becausv they figured 1 - ~vrll one term 1 iliil Ixn \v:iy hixti. Anti
they said if 1 hadn't stoletr 311 the votrs they'll have had - atid it just h:~pl~vnvd th;~t thry
just needed that one member to control the house, hnrl thry t~la~r~rrl trrc, for it, that I st~lle
all the votes, see. So after that thry was all out to get me, grt thr votr, arril i~tl~

;mil the key Dcrnocrats. the) xverc very muc11 interested in getting control of this
housr That n-as what their mission was. Frcri ('ain and all them fellon.s. .Ant1 thray
\vorLrd tirelessly at it lo prornote to grt trvo. The) arrcn't rvorking ag:iinht rrrt,,
exactly. They wanted ~ I in P there hut the) als(1 wanted the other legislator. in thrre. But
thr \vay it turned out, he yo1 all the I(:rLe> 2nd Mis~er Ihner~ just squeaked in th;~t tinit: hy
1.100 votes.
(2: \Veil now Jor Knight, was he a state central cornn~itterrnan'!
.A: Fred Cain was state central comrnitteenian. They tvcrt. :lhout just likr this. (grsturrsl I
think J(lc \r:is one time, he aivp it to Cain, sornething like that. Rut .lor was the irrasurvr
of his party. see, state treasurer.
Q: Oh 1 see
1: And then he was thz director of financial institutions at the time. Now thrzy've hroke
it up. Called the Department of Finance, and the)'\r got a chairrnan in tho nri~~irtnient
of Banking. But at that tinre he had chargr of all the hanks and savings and l(~;lns.
Q: \Tell, now. Irt's see, it was l!%O 1 bzlieve - let's ser was that when Krnnedy ran'.' \\.as
selected at the corrvention in 1!)60?
.A: Yes
Q: Joe Knight
A: llr was a delegatr wasn't he?
Q: Yes, Joe Knight rras, yes. And fVilliani Grindle I recall was an alternatr that year, and
he retnernherrd Joe Knight out there. Ilitl you go to any of the conventions?
4: I was ahr-a\-s too 1)usy. I didn't have arry political ambi~ions to go any higher. Thiiy
ni~nted mt: to run for I7indley's represrntative spat the tirsl tinie. And I rould have prot~ahly
bra1 Pinrile)- at that p~rticular time see.
Q: 'This rvas the congressional seat
1 . But I didn't want to go, I couldn't afford LO go to I{-ashington and ~IL, :ityay
fro~n . . .
: I !
thrnl
So you nrvcr rrally srt.iously gave ;irry consi(lernti~~n t~> ('r~~rgreas thvn at an) Lirrii
4: So I never did nant it
(J: \Vhat :il~out the l!lil congrrssic~nal rrapportiontnent? you reniernb~!r anything ill~i~l~i
that? \VL' re rt'ilurrd hy ant. rut ih:it time. frnn~ twenty-live tu t\\f,rrty-four. rhic;t~[,
- - a-as a n~ovi ti, rivluce them from ten to nin~:. ;\nil as a mattvr uf fact it tinally rrt,nl
through that rvaj- I hrlievr. Ilo you recall anything :rhout that.'
:I: I rcrrr[.mt)vr we was tiyhtirrg arounti the housr abuut it. I just rvent along with tht' o;.g;inia;~tiiirr
that time i:ut I \\;isn't i~artivulariy intervstvrl in it. It didn't mean that I I I I I ~ ~
to rrrr t,ither n-ay.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: So sou didn't get involved in the partisan fighting in an)- \ray on it
A: No.
Q: Were yur~ approached by the Chicago people to vote
A: Oh yes. I went along with them because they went along with nrr on several things that
1 wantrd. So 1 went along with them on that particular time.
Q: 1 understand that the way that was fin;llly compromised was that they let the Chicago
people do the re-districting then after that reapportionment was made.
A: It took a long time.
Q: Do you recall anything ahout that particular compromise'?
A: I can't recall
Q: Llid that reapportionment in any way affert the area here?
A: No that didn't have much effect on it
Q: How about in 1963, that reapportionment fight? That was the one that the legislature
couldn't make up its nrinti on.
A: Yes that's when we \\,as drawing up maps. \t1e had a hundred different maps. \Ye was
all drawing up maps. That's when I was going to grt - brought in this lower end of thr
district over hrre. Part of Alton or Godfrey, somr Godfrey area and I don't know cuactllwhere
else it did go. Rut I was willing to accept any part of it I got out of it. I rcmembrr
going along with some of the other boys. We tried tr~ fix up a map which tlrouglrt \\:IS
suitable to us, advantageous to us at that particular time hut - I can't recall nrurlr ahout
it anymore because this area through here, seems like you can't depend on it. It could hex
a Democratic district one tinre, pretty soon it'll be a R~puhlican district. It was a swing
district. Depends on the individual.
Just like Findlry, since he's heen in he's helped make the whrlle thing a Republican district
out of it brcause people would vote for Findley anri they would votr thr rrst of the tickct
that way tuo and pull them over there. I know- I got a lot of good i)enrocra!s who years
ago wouldn't think about voting for a Rrpuhlican. But Findley did thrm some favors anti
especially during the Vietnam War I think uhen some of the boys had gone home or solnr
things he got done. And now they've turrred to he strong Repuhlieans. They'd havr nrvrr
heat him if it wouldn't have been for the changr !hat put him in :I new district too,
see. Otherwise Durhin would never haye heat him in this election year. But the waj- it
went they threw him in Deratnr and he didn't do anybody in Ijecatur any good. And 1
notice he got heat hl- 6,000 votes over there and !hat's what beat him. Becausr if thrl-'d
have left him anywhere near his old district here, why, they never would have heat him.
Q: Bob McCarthy from over at Llecatur was thinhinp one time of running against
Findlry. Did he ever discuss that with you?
A: Yes he discussed it with rnr. I told him he couldn't heat - 1 told Durl~in yc;~rs go.
he came down when he hati run against somebody. In fact he called nlr one d;ly ;1n11 hc
said, "Do you remember you told nrr that?" I forget who he u-as running against. Hut
he was running against somchodq-. And I said, "You seemed to br" - I nrrrr knciv
him. He'd come tiown to my place. And he sremed to be a very 1)~~rsonable sort of a
fellow. I said, "You certainly should get some place. Rut the nran you're running against
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

you ran't beat." I said, "Some day you ought to do alright in politirs." And sure enough
he did. He finally did.
Q: Finally rame through.
A: He finally got the right spot.
Q What do you remember about Bob Mrrarthy in the legislature7
Q He was in the house nith you 1 guess thvrc
1: Ycs he served in the house. He used to use my room :I lot. He didn't keep a room there
t~ecausr he only had a short drive back home. Trip of forty, fifty miles, it wasn't too far
when he lived over at Lincoln.
Q: Yes
.4: So I always had an extra bed in nl> room. And many a night Bob came in late and
wanted lo know if he rould have a place to stay or an extra bed or something :lnd he stayed
over several nights with me. nut he \vas pretty murh of a labor man though. kIe was on
lhr other side as far as I was in ihinking. But I never had anything to opposr him too
much about.
Q: Now he was pretty n~uch pushing the unrmployment compensation work?
A: Compensation yes.
Q: (:ompensation and that sort of thing.
11: !Vent a little o\erbu:~r(I on some of that I think
Q: IVell of coi11.sc thal was his business.
.A: That's his are in the hole, that's right.
it goe~.
He's in the law business, and that's the way
Q: Well let's see now, you don't recall anything particularly about the 1963 fights? Now
John Touliy for example was on the committee to . . .
!I: Yes I ran't ret:all too much about - I remember Touhy. Nice fellow hut he never
impressed ine too ~nurh as the leader. (pause) I guess lie got things done alright, I don't
know.
Q: Of course when 1112 gut to be Speaker ant1 he had 118 to fifty-nine
.4: Right. After that your vote \\.asn't too important. They could do anything they wanted
to do without your vote. 11 wasn't like lhat \vhen a lot of times the session's close. T\vo
votes cr SO, then the? needed your votv, ser. Made a lot of difference.
Q: 110 hou think that's a healthy situation alicn they get so lopsided with things'!
1: KO, o ' t 11's a lot better, ii it's rlow. Tor the people. A lot of fellows vote and don'l
undvrst;ln(l. They just use some iello\\-'s \.rite one way voting for a hill. And he's probal~ly
ag:iinst that bill. Somebody said, "I heard him say he's against it." A11d pretty soon you
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

look up and he's voted for it. And you wonder why. Well if it's going to he lopsided anyway,
it doesn't make any difference. So why should you jeopardize your position with
somebody if you might need someone. So you might as well go along because it's not going
to make any difference anyway either way, whether it's not going to pass or if it's already
passed. And it had enough to go pass, what's the difference if you voted for it. Some people
can't understand that. But unless you're in on the end they don't understand. But by you
voting for this fellow, although it is immaterial whether you voted or not, it looks had on
your part from the fellow sitting on the outside. But all you're really doing is putting
yourself in position to . . .
Q: Get something later on.
A: That's right, for his. Well you couldn't go to him and say when he looked, "He?. you
didn't vote for me. Why do you want me to come over there and vote for you?" Rut if
you've done voted for him, he's obligated to you, and the law is passed. It doesn't make
any difference anyway, it's going to pass anyway. A lot of them do that. They wait and
see if it's had 118 votes or whatever it needed to pass and then if it done passed, they go
along with theirs, see.
Q: I see
A: Or if it's only got thirty votes or forty votes then they might vote for it, knowing it's
not going to pass. It gets you in a bad position sometimes. It gets up there too close and
they'll play around with it and so it gets right near the passing line. Then somr of them
got nerve enough to withdraw their vote.
Q: I understand there were times when a person would vote on the board up thrre and then
real quick get down to the clerk and change . . .
A: To change your vote, oh yes. You did that frequently.
Q: You ever have occasion to do that?
A: Oh yes. I've had fellows switch already on me when
Q: Oh.
A: And especially - I can't remember what that was. That was afterwards -- something
about the women, women voters .
Q: Eight-hour day for professsional women?
A: Something about the women. This gal, she was in thr legislature. She rome down \\.ith
her arms outstretched and - I wish I could recall that exactly.
Q: Was that Mrs. Dawson by any chance?
A: No it wasn't Mrs. Dawson. And I got tired of it and I walked off of the floor and I'll
be damned if they didn't turn my switch on and tinally I looked back and, man, I got mad
then. And I went up and locked it up . . .
Q: I'll be darned
A: . . . so they didn't have a chance to do it. I guess it was something on the sami, order
as this ERA [Equal Rights Amendment] when they were promoting that. They'd go crazy.
Q: Well now let's see, Paul Randolph and Frances Dawson got toeether tu introduce that
bill to do away with the eight-hour day for professional women. That was ahout 1963 . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

:I: Yes I ren~ernher that.
:I: I prohahly Kent along with them on that.
Q: Yes it \vent through okab-. What did >-nu think ahout the electronic voting that replace11
the old roll call. Do you think that was hctter than having a roll call'!
1: I don't think il's better. Thc old roll call was a lot hetter than electronic. Rlorr ~firirnt.
it's quicker operatirig.
Q: YPS. I xuess you still hare an opportunity to explain your vote if you want to. :lnd
Q: I,rt's ser, thal redistricting !rent to the c:~~urts at that time. The s~nate got involred in
the one man, one vote thing, got into it and the courts finall) decitl~d that the senate \voul~l
hare to go one man, one 1-ote instead of the geographical areas the) had hefore. \\'hat did
you think of that change?
;I: \%'hen
the senate
Q The senate ha11 heen on a geoel.aphical hasis as opposzd to a population basis
11: Then they had to go hy population
Q: Yes sir
.A: \VeII I didn't see anything too tnuch wrong with that idea.
(laping stopped to grcet custumcrs, then resumed,
Q: \Vith the increase in numbers, they \\-t,nt from what? 153 to 177 that lirst srssion that
you n-ere up there. And I guess they hall to rt.11~ the chambers adding desks?
:\: Yes they had more desks and they didn't kno~v whirl1 side. I think they had to changc
them round and it 11~~pends [In \\-hich side had the niajority on to put thc (lcsks on. I can't
rcc-all an>-rnore - \vho had the majorit>- the firs1 y~,ar?
Q: I L~rlirve it \v~~uld hare - let's see, il was - \Varrrn \Yooii \r;rs the
.A: Yes \Varren Wood. The Democrats h:l~i thc majority. I believe, that year. I think they
hat1 . . .
Q: \Yell the Krp1lhlir:ins \v11u1(1 hart: ha11 it \\-ith \\'arren \Vood
Q: Yes.
;I: That's right. ye.;. wit11 \Y;irren oil >-es
:\: I thought htx made an excrllenl Spraker. He had an air about himself :ltiii it seeined
like he kept control (,f the house prrtt) \\ell. .And IIP \\:is always fair in his t1r:llinps.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Was he pretty pronrpt in
A: Yes he was. Anii I alaays thought he \vorild go up further in politic.; hut could ncwr
understand !!-hat was lacking in him that kept lrim fronr rising.
Q: I guess he ivas pretty hard hit when it wa3 decided that the)- \\ou!d go a%ead and lct
I'aul Pon~cll get in there instead of having a fight to ser if he could .;t;iy in 193!).
.A Yes I piless that hit him prett!, hard at that time.
Q: Ilo you recall that De La Cour and
:I: I)e I,a Cour and P~ju-ell?
Q: That whole thing. Which side were you on? Did )-ou go tu thr Fon-ell caucus or tht,
regular vaucus?
.A. I went to I'onell's caucus
Q: Oh you did'.'
A: Oh yes. In fact \re had that done set and I didn't think there nas :~nything to argue
aliout because I'o\\rll and Bob Craig and Pf~ffrr ancl myself, wr met Stratton up in Chicago
onr rial- and we agreed that's what we was going to do. And so I didn't think therr was
any ust, to - so I made ail of nrx - ohich turned out to be nq friends, n-ere 111)- frirnllh
and fri~>ntis later, like Joe Knight and Fred (kin n.;rs nrad at me hrcause I rlulle(l in tl~c
St. Nick Hijtel that erening when thry had the caurus r ~ i- c ~ Ire hall wnre strak hi~use
I believe it was. I can't recall.
Q: Out b~ the fairgrounds somewhere
.A: Yes. Only ordered for tu-enty ur eighteen. Turn~xl i~lt sevrral nrori, canie
over. Eberspnchrr and somehoriy elsr cartre in and they Terr fighting around ahout it. I:ut
any\v:iy 1 pulled up to the St. Kicholas llotel and Fred C:iin met me and s;iirl sonr~,thing
like. "LVhcre are s-ou going'.' Down to the Wittn~ond Hotel to ~ ;IVF:I cauclrs'?" or "('n~~r,t~sing
duan at the hotel?"
Q: 1 see. (laughter)
.A: EIe was mad ahout it because Ire was in with the Chicago group, Frril !vas, Freil
Cain. .And hr was my state central cummitteeman.
(2: Oh. 1 see. Well. Was there any p:~rticular hard feelings Iret\\cen the groups'?
.A: FII~ a while there was, >-es there was. Thry reall\- slugged ir our. It sern~e(i likc I ililin't
knou. therr was that much friction between Pnwr.li anrl these fello\\s. It t11(1k a long tilric
to heal that up too. .A lot uf them bo>-s. Really doe Knight was aln.a!s ;I good friend 01'
mine, hut 1 c~~uld tell underneath that he didn't like Po\veII too nil1~11. I rlon't kno!~ if it
was jealousy there or sonrething. And thr same uay with Fred Cnin rill,. Powell look
control. LVhrn he took control, he was t~~ss.
(2: .And I press he took control then though. I)o ~ O Lrrnrrr~~tler
I ;~n\thing about the HOIII.
action?
A: Oh, I can't recall anymore h o that ~ operat~rl anymore. Rut . . .
(2: 'Thr Rrl~itlli~,ans had the thumbs up. thumb3 donn sort of thing
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A:
Yes. they was \.otiny and vice versa.
Q: . . . when it comes to voting.
A: -4fraitI I can't recall what they had in mind one time for doing - I thought they was
going to pass it up and just have a majority or something bpcaose sorne of them refosed
to vote or something. But I don't know why the Republicans had to not votr, brcause we
swore, when we were up in Chicago, that we would stand pat regardless, see. And they
couldn't get the majority without us thr way they had it figured out, so . . .
Q: JYhy had you gone to Chicago'? What group was this?
A: I was up there on a commission trip myself. And they met us up there. I don't know
whether Zeigler was thew then or not, Zeigler. Can't recall. Iie could have been,
Zeigler. Craig, Pfeffer and Powell - he met us aver at this - 1 forgot if it was the La
Sallr Hotel or one of the hotels up therr. And then we met Stratton up there. Stratton
came in. So I rememher Stratton telling Po\vrll that he'd just as soon haw him as Speaker
as anybody else, something like that, it doesn't make that big of a difference.
Q: Yes I understand there was kind of an agreement betmeen Powell anri Stratton that
Stratton would put the Republicans hehind him.
A: Yes
Q: So you think there really was a togetherness hetween them?
A: U'ell that was my thinking, that it was already cut :rnd dried, see. But thry nradr a big
fuss over it, fighting arountl an the floor. .4nd, from what I thought to hegin with, "I don't
know why they're doing all this fussing when they've done decided who's going to be the
S~~eakrr." Because I came down on the train from Chicago ant1 I met Connors. He was
a quite a man thosr days and . . .
Q: That's Botch! Connors?
A: Yes the fpllow who had the big diamond on his finger and the big cigarette. He said
that - wherr does LIP La Cour comr in that there?
Q: That aas Daley that dec~d~tl Ue La Cour was . .
A: Llr La ('our - was that for the speakership, or - yes, that's right, yes. He said that
Lle La Cour was going to be the Speaker. Well I didn't say anything, but I thought; "UTrll
you don't knl~~i- what you're talking about sir, too much, because we're done made (iifferrnt
arrangements than that."
Q. And did you have occasion to talk to De 1.a ?our ahout this, before or after?
.\. Afterwards Joe and I got to be gootl friends It didn't bother him too much. It sernred
like he - see, he was just being pushed hy someone else.
Q: Yes. Now Corneal Davis I guess made some pretty good speeches during that.
A: Oh hr did, yes, thry were all talking
Q: I'VE heard that that was kind of disappoin~ing to Warren Wood ant1 that from then on
hr really didn't make any attempt to procerd on. Like the next time, perhaps he could haw
tried fur it again, but then they decided to let Powell win it the second time in 1961.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Yes
Q. Do you remember an) thing about that go-round?
A: I can't recall too much about that anymore. I don't know - can't recall if that was
- was that quite a contest then?
Q: No it wasn't, mainly because of the West Side Bloc 1 guess. They went with the
Democrats and the Republicans just couldn't do it even though they had a majority. What
do you remember of that West Side Bloc group like Granata and Capuzi and . . .
A: Capuzi - oh I never associated a lot w-ith them. I've probably been in their company
a number of times, drinking or something like that. They went along with me on my hills
that I wanted several times. And I can't recall, they might have asked me to go along. But
they never had no pressure put on me by them in any way. If there was, it was through
Powell. Powell might have said, "If you can help us out on this bill, why, I want you to
do so," or something like that. But if it was not pertinent to the West Side Bloc themselves
- well they never put any pressure on me.
Q: I've heard - I guess this would have gone up to that time in the late 1!)50's and the
early 1960's - of what they called the Silent Seven from Chicago. That was a bloc of Daley
peopIe that sat there and voted as they were direrted to. Do you recall anything about .
A: I recall a couple of them. I can't remember the fellorv sitting next to me. He was pruhably
one of them. Yes he cried one day. He was a total stranger to me and we got kind
of dose and might meet together and spend the evening together and we'd discuss some of
the bills once in a while. And I remember in particular that he had a bill up and we voted
alike together on it. And pretty soon he had to change his vote. And he sat there and
cried. That really scared me hut don't tell nobody. Then he told me that he had to vote
for that. Somebody told him to change his vote . . .
Q: FIe received instructions
A: . . . so he did. See, coming from a little town like our area I didn't know anything ahout
any operation like that. I'd usually vote the way I wanted to vote. Nobody told me what
to do.
Q: Well it seems that during that period of time - and this changed later when Phil Rock
and that hunch came in - that at that time Daley would send down two or three people
who were really sharp, like maybe Don O'Brien and people like that, and then send these
other people who would just do as instructed. Do you feel that was the case at that time
then?
A: Oh I never give it a thought, but I guess it could have been that wab- I)ec;~use seemed
like Daley usually got what he wanted some way or another. He'd mancu\.tLr round. But
I wasn't against Chicago because I always thought the state of Illinois needed ('hir:~gn
see. And when I was campaigning I always would campaign against Chicago but in lily
thinking I was taught that it's a big state and Chicago's a big city and they needrd each
other. You see, Chicago has done a lot for the whole state. Es1)ccially in the srhr~r~ls, i)cl.-
taining to the sales tax. And I figured they helped the southern part r,f the state out a
whole Iot.
Q: That sales tax now. One of the things that Daley didn't get done for - tvcxll until the
income tax came in and there was a trade-off then - was the increase of one-half rent in
the sales tax. He tried for that many sessions through there, all through the lBti(l's.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: What was your position on that? Wrrr your supporting him :~nd going for that?
A: Well 1 can't remember exact]>- how it was. I didn't go along with him a lot of times
on a lot of that type of - where our argument was it was none of our husiness, let them
run their own husiness up there on that deal if you can. I remember when they were putting
a bill through where the schools was participating a certain percentage of the salrs tax setup,
why, we usually went along on that. Rut Dalry had always a way of getting that CT.4
[Chicago Transit Authority] in on that deal. That was why it had to he subsidized
somehow. It was a sore every session, they never had enough funds. Rut I usually went
along with them.
SESSION 5, TAPE 8, SIDE 2
A: But after heing in Chicago a lot, 1 seen the problems they had with traffic, and I could
see why the CTA would be of benefit to the whole area. If the state had to build a new
highway to take care of the demand, why, it would rost us money in that mannrr too. So
one was as bad as the othrr. So. . .
Q: Let's see, it was in 1962 or 1963 I guess when Kerner wanted to increase the sales tax,
with one-half cent going I helieve to roads and one-half cent to the education.
A: Education, yes
Q: Now that failrd in that year as I recall. Do you remember anything about that particular
. . .
4: That's when Kerner was in.
Q: Yes.
A \That year was that?
Q: 1 think 1963 was when that was put in and failed
A: I can't recall
Q: Of course after the war there was considrrahl~ surplus and that kept dwindling down
A: Yes,
(2: And rvhen Stratton went out of olfice the appropriations exceeded the budgrt Tor that
)ear by $78 rnillion roughly. And Kernrr inherited that. Do you 1.rcal1 his atte~npt to adjust
that? For eranrple, the first move was to make a 10 percent cut across the tjoard on all
approl~riations, a 10 percent cot.
A: I remember that and I went along with that deal
Q: Oh you did?
4- Yrs
Q: I)itl >nu think in any way that it migh! have heen out of balancr then hy going 10 percent
across t he hoard?
1: s 1 i . I didn't think that was the right way to do it. Rut I remember \ye h:~d a
lot of hearings at that particular time. I can't rerncmt)t.r really the result of that, hu! I
rrmember a lot of hrarings on . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Let's see, that ~vould have heen 1963. I have your committees listed here. I have
Insuranre. You were on Banks and Savings and Loan then, Agriculture, and Water Conservation?
A: Conservation.
Q At that time. Did it come up in any of those committees? It prohabl> would not have
I guess.
'1: Not too much. The only thing in general was hearing ahout how it was unfair because
3ome people who really tried to keep their operations normal, they were penalized just as
much as those who's inflated it all the time and looking for ways to spend their money. >\nd
the one who was saving on it mas penalized just as much as the one who threw his ml,nr>away.
I recall quite a lot of arguments in that respect on that particular . . .
Q: &'ell now Public Aid, Mr. Maremont I believe
A: Mare~rwnt, yes
Q: . . . was in charge at that time, and he threatened to resign because of that 10 percent
cut.
A: Yes I recall that
Q: As a matter of fact, they 11i11l tu eonle in for an emergency appropriation L g~~rss to grt
them through that hienniel period. I 11clieve there was a s~>e~.ial session ralle~t in 196.1.
A: Yes
Q: You recall anything about that sperial session?
A. No I can't. I can't recall too much ahout that. I remember being called in for a special
session, we . . .
Q: Kerner was going to call it before the election and then derided to hold it after the rlection.
A: After the election
Q: Let's see, in regard to just functioning there, how did you organize your desk? What
did you keep on your desk or in your files or right there?
A: Oh we just had a big stack of hills right in front of us. I was fortunate to have it ;i
little better than most of them. I had one of the girls in the pool who took a little hetter
care of me than some of the other ones. And then finally some of my friends learned ahout
it and they got in on the deal too then. We'd pay her a little extra on the side And she
n-ould do you a little better job by doing that.
Q: Who was that?
A: That was Frances Edders. I was trying to think of her name the otllel. (la? ;in11 I cr>uliln't
remember it. Finally got her a joh with Powell and then we didn't have nolx~dy to 11o th:it
anymore. Most oI them just were put in there. They could care less. It is :i ~IIOI iic~;il
and they weren't working for nobody in particular. 1,uck.y enough to get ahold of OIII. :in(]
she happened to be one who was conscientious enough to do the job. And then she \vould
take care oI all my mail, but you had to do it all at your desk. You ~lilln't 11:lvr an oficc
them days.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q Did she usually do it at your desk? Or did she do it up in the pool?
A: Shr'rl come down to my desk and done most of it all the time, so made it a lot better
than having to go up . . .
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q: You mentioned the mail there. Now she would open it for you I guess, and then ~ou'd
go through it?
A: Yes you'd go through it.
Q: IIOW did you deride what was important and what wasn't important?
A: 1 don't know. (laughs) You just - comes natural to you. You had a general knowledge
of things and you'd just put your okay on - what 1 did was I just - she got so good for
me that 1 - she just about knew of my thinking and the way I would answer it a lot of
times and 1 could just put a mark on there. And then she'd go ahead and answer it for
me. Where I made the big mistake was telling some other boys about it, and then she had
a job on their hands too.
Q: I'll be darned. Was she still able to keep up with yours then after that?
A: Well after she got Powell's job then I couldn't expect her to. spe
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q: Well then, did it get out of hand then when yo11 didn't have her any longer? Or how
did you go about keeping it under cc~ntral?
A. Well she was nice enough, even when she worked for Powell then, she'd come over in
thc evenings and . . . 11o it for me. Up to the time I went out, she still was m)- secretary.
Q: Did 1.o~ do any of that mark at home or you take any of it home with you?
A: Not too much of it no. 1 didn't take much home. 1 done most of it up there
Q: Were there any mass mailing sort of things that you ignored or
A: Oh a lot of the nrail ynu w~uldn't even bother alrout answerina at all, especi:llly thesc
cards, things like ihat, you nrvrr answered cards. I:n!ess it was :L direct personal letter we
rli~ln't l~othor ahout answering at ;~11. I remember some of thesc orpanizations useti to get
a printed car11 and they'd have somebody to fill in, and sigr yuur name. h'e don't jluy nruch
attention to that. Somebody'(1 just hire some kids to till them out and send the111 to
>ou. You didn't know \%-ho they were. I rtanirniber whcn t~ingo was spnns(~re(i several tirnt.,,
thry al\vays \\-as [lr~inp that bingo hill, and we'd get a 1111 of nrail on that You might cl>onl
it oi~t ;mil stack it up and see which was - hail . . .
(2: Bigger
\ l a j i t yes. :\nd thrn ivhen I and PfrRes - ~\-e'(l sp(1nsored a hill to gt.1 silllir Funils
11y taxing the insuranct, rompanies. And that olltl wc goi ;I sesI1unst~ f'ro~~r. I ili(ln't knojv
there jvilre 30 many frat~~rna! urpanizations existed as di(l thtm Rut 111vstly all forms, scr.
~vhoever curlrpany or (~rganization\\-as against it or f~ls it, the>'d get :i vard printed a1111
they'd have it fillvd in. that type of thing. I rrever (lid pay i~u~ch attention to it 1 guess.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: That's right.
Q: So you didn't have much u-ork of that sort to do at homr then in answering lpttprs a1111
that sort of thing.
:I: h'o I had plenty uf work at home to do when I got homr. I didn't hother about it too
much. hly mostly homework was meeting people. I had a lot of people come in hecause
I was accessible to thrm . . . all thr time. And a lot of them took advantagr of that. Thry
knew I couldn't run away. I was there, and . . .
Q: LVril do you feel that you were handicapl~~vl to any extent by not havin~ a secretary 111)
there?
A: Yes, it's a lot better, I would think, thr way it's o~)~~at'(l todaj- \\-hen you've got a sc.cretar,,
you've got an office where you can take someholly ;in11 talk to somebody. lIere wr had
to talk to somebody around our desk. I was fortunate, more fortunate than most of them,
hecause I had the last seat in the house. And 1 could use hark there for my storage
spacr. And my seatmate was Leo Pfeffrr and he didn't care too much whatrver I did. And
I always had his chair accessible to a secretary therc who came down. And so it madr it
pretty ronvenient. Lro was a\

a lot of the cunstituents don't un~lerstand that see. They put pamphlets out several times,
"Wittmond's the only one that voted for this tax increase or thal tax increase." Well I was
the only one who had the opportunity to vote for it, the others weren't on that
committee. The average person, he don't know nothing about the committee hearings. all
he hears about is this increase in taxes As soon as it comes out of rommittre - if it came
out of committee the newspapers already got it as passed, see.
Q: 1 see
h: And peoy~le watching these things, and they look and see who voted for it. They'll say,
"Wittmond voted for it." In fact I remember one particular year when we \\-as passing somr
increases, we had the tases on liquor and cigarettes and they were pushing that pretty
heavily. 4nd my people in the area didn't want an increase becaus~ they're competitive with
Missouri and different places. But me heing in the tavern business. and - it would have
heen nice for me, to point to me and say. "Here's a man with a tavern hul he doesn't vote
for his own good," see, but gosh, I voted on taxes on food, I'd certainly have to put it on
liquor and cigarettes.
But the tavern men in the area rouldn't understand that at all. They didn't realize that
thp position I was in I could be helpful to them in a lot of other manners see. But that's
t h trouble ~ \vith too many constituents, they don't look thp overall picture of anything. They
just look at what you did in one particular area.
Q: Single-issue thinking. I think Charles Clabaugh called that, and he said it really ruined
the political business lat~ly. One of the reasons he got nut was herause people would raise
hell about one issue rpgardless of what you did on . . .
A: That's right, they do it on anything else. You vote nine times in their favor, if yr,u vote
ten times, you weren't any good. I know I roted for lahor a lot of times yuu knorv, was
a beneficiary to labor, and they never did give me a gu~ld rating.
Q: Because you voted against them on . . .
A: Because I voted against them several times. And if you don't go all the way, wh!
Q: Yes I've heard that with lahor. that they rvould hlackmark you if you even went
along . . .
A: And I was always always fair with labor hecause I didn't want to get a. . . . But 1 never
did want to get o\.erbo;rrd, somr of their freak hills that they come in nith. But they noulrl
never give rne a favorable rating of any kind.
Q- Norv let's see, Ruhe Soderstrom was around a1 that time wasn't he'.' for labor'?
A: Yes. h'o~ I almays liked Ruhe.
did . . . pressure you too much.
He seemed 11, he a prrtty fair-minrlcvl pcZrson. Ile nevrr
Q: Did you you usr lobbyists much to gain irrformation on what was goinc on'?
;I: Oh yes I always listened to them. 1 en.ioyc(t getting their kno\\-ledge any\va, \vhethc~.
I :~gree(i with them or not. Most of them I talked to told mr that, "\Ve just want ycui lo
1isti.n ti, CILI~ side," and I was glad lo hear that anyway. I liked to hear all the arguments
th1.y prusvnte,l. Anti I spent a lot of tinre listening to different lobhyists who probat~lj I nr\rr
did votu in favor of or for or an~thing.
Q: lion. did you get :~lonc with .Joe Meek?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Joe was alright. Jur was great.
Q: Did he ever come down to this area and
A: Oh yes. Joe come down to Brussels
Q: Oh he did?
A: Oh ycs he come to Brussels several times. I usually went along with his ide:is prctty
much. If I remember correctlj-, wasn't he for business or Chamher of Commerce?
Q: Yes. Ketailers.
'1: Yes, retailers was his issue
Q: At one time he was finally successful in getting that - \\hat was it? one-half cent or
something for - at least an amount for . . .
A: blerchants filling out the returns, yes,
Q: Right.
A: I rerall that.
W: You were probably for that.
A: Yes I was for that.
Q: Let's see, I'm trying tu think - how about Glen LVally, did you ever play pnker nith
him?
A: Glen who'.'
Q: Glen Wally from up at Peoria.
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumrdl
Q: Now Glen Wally was from up at . . .
A: I remember that name.
Q: , . . I eoa And he used to
A: I rememher that name. Yes I remenher that n:inlc, hut I can't, rerall - I nrxver assoriated
too much with him for some reason or anothrr. I don't know \r-hy.
Q: He'd ylrttcn into trouble earlier. Ant1 I unrierstand he was tighter than thc (lickcns. IIe
wouldn't huy a Coke for sumet~ody. (rhuckles)
A: I remember that nanle. But I never hail much ;issoc:iation with him
Q: Well it was Iocal utiIities I think mainly from Peoria and 1)eratur ;ind that :irc:i. I'm
trying to think of Maurice Scott for the - what was it? the Taxpayers' Fe~icration, or . . .
A: Maurice Scott yes.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Yes I remember him
Q: \Ye11 let's see, what ahout other sources of information, like the state library. lid you
ever have occasion to get over to the state lihrary'.'
A: Oh yes, I used to go over there. This Morris was very active in gathering information
up. Johnny spent a lot of time. Any subjec~ he rut into he \

A: That's before - that's \\-hen Kennedl ran I believe wasn't it?
Q. No in 1960 he ran of course. And in 1!l6.4 then the at-large election \\here that shcrt
came out and all that.
A: Oh, at-large
Q: Yes.
A: Well some of the areas that I didn't have, naturally I visit :I lot of places tha! - I I)\\-ned
property down in Wayne County and I'd traveled around thrr~ilgh that area quile a lor. Anrl
I did contact . . .
Itaping stopped to greet cu5tomers, then resumedl
Q So !nu traveled in Wayne County, and
:I: IVah-ne County, see I farmed. I'd bought quite a hit of farmland [io\vn th~re. .And 1'11
go duwn there ever\- week. I would stop at all the to\vns going ~io\\-n and ),ark, sornelirnes
go out r~f my way different places. Antl thrn I was pretty \\-ell known in Alton vhich was
out of nly district at that time too see, and I had a lot of husiness in there, ntl I hat1
heen pretty well acquainted. More acquainted in Alton than I was in, reall?, in rny district
because I'd done business with all the Alton people prior to getting into polilirs. Then I
kind of moved my operations more up north instead of going south. I'rex-iously \ve alxvays
went to Alton and St. Louis for most of our husiness and transactions.
Q: Were there particular individuals down in Wayne ('aunt) that you got to support \ou
or go out and ~vork for you down there?
A. Oh I didn't do any work particularly or have :lnyho(ly to xu out and do any work. I
just went around and visited them and I rould talk to the iieople who talked niy langnag~.
a lot of business people. I could always pet along with that segnient of people pretty \veil.
And naturally, tieing in the banking business at the same time tou I ~ised in \isif all the
tianks around the area.
Q: LJo you think that helped in your winning that election?
.A: Well it had to brcause I ran pretty good, you know, from a little rown and the11 I was
forty-third in the state at that tim?. So it had to do some good somr\vherr oulsid~ of my
district hecause 1 w-ouldn't have gotten them in my district. I had to get then1 oulside the
district.
Q. Was therr any help you got in the Chicago area at all7
A: Well 1 think the Chicago boys remembered me considering I wouldn't damage them :in?
and 1 was about as good as anyone up there for them. So they did give me their sul11)ort
too.
Q: Did you kind of try for name rrcognition or did you try for just t h straight-ticket ~
sort
nf voting?
4. W~ll, they had to have a name on that thing because they had a big selection there. You
know out of the whole group you only had so many lo gel c~lectcrl. Antl ?otl had Lo run LIT)
high or 1-ou wouldn't have got it. So you had to have your namtl on or . . .
Q: What about the ~lection day itself? IIow did you handle yoorself any differt~nt then than
any other election?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

11: 011 I never did get excited over :In!. election, I didn't crlehrate anj-. If I won, 11ka1-. If
I lost 1 guess it's the same old story. It's like anything else. I never gr,t excited over . . .
Q: Cuurse at that tirnc J-~LI had to wait a \vhile hefore you found out
A: Yes, before you fount1 out if 1-ou was elected or not. We always had to do that though
it seems like. .A lot of times, the next morning or noon hefore 13-e ever knew if we were,
really elected or not. See it always decided on the higgrr places than my home area. Even
if I carried it, I couldn't he certain of election until I heard from the more populated arras.
Q: Like
:I: Quincy and Jachs~~nville, later years and all those bigger towns.
Q: Now they had a special session which thry called in Januarj- of 196-1 figuring out how
they were going to do in that at-large election. Do you remember anything ahout that spc.cial
session?
A: I can't recall too much about that anymore.
Q: They finally decided they were going to limit to 118 candidates from each party
A
Then that's when the! got some hIue-ribbon vnndidates out wasn't it"
Q. Ye.; Well then the) held the convention later to decide
A: Yes there were several of - I think that's when Rill Farg got on the ticket onc year
up at Jacksonville. I think he was a - if I rememher correctly. ,In11 I think that's when
Katz did, that's the way he got on to start with?
Q: Yes, Ilarold Katz
,A: Katz. out of Chicago?
Q: Yrs.
'1: Quitc a nun~lvr of the fe1lon.s who had never had a chance t~, get in politics other\vise
got in on that tirhn.
Q: Yes. Marjorie Pehworth who was one also
A: Yes.
Q: r)i~l you get to know her very well?
Q: Yes. IIon. about the head of the ticket at that tirnr? Stevenson. Ste\rns(ln I guess
hraded the rlemocratic ticket ;in(] Eisenhower the Republican tirkct.
A: Rc[~ut)liran tickrt
Q: Earl Eisrnhowr.er I guess his nanre was, wasn't it?
. Ikr . . .
(>. [)ill you ohserve then? :ih legislators'!
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A. You mean after the) got elected. or
Q: Yes, after they got elected there
A: Well I never did get to know him, I never was very rlose to Stevenson. I don't knin. 11e
had an aloofness about him and he was always pretty inurh a loner. Hr \\-;is I)?
himself. He put in a lot of lime. He was alrvays at his desk, while rve rverc working. r~il
he didn't go out of his way to get :~cciuainted with anybody either. And I was :ilnays the
type that if they didn't want to associate with me, it was perfectly alright. Rut hr just didn't
fit in with our group over in ml- corner at all.
Q: Did he associate with a particular group? Or he was he a complete loner?
A: I think he was pretty much of ;i loner. 1 don't think he assoriateii xx-ith - I belieye
him and Paul Simon \\.as alrvays prcttl- close.
Q: Let's see, we're mentionetl [Iarold Katz therr. No\\- he was thc on? that got the Cmmission
on the Organization of the General Assembly going.
A: Yes,
Q: Prior to that time Harold Hoover had tried lor thrre sessi(ins to get a rornrnission estahlished
and failed to do so. 110 you recall his effort to . . .
A: Can't recall murh atjoiit him. I remember this Katz rome down t11r.r~ though. He \\-as
quite a operator it scrmrd like. IIe knew how to mix with people and hi)\\- to - w:is he
irr some kind of husin~,ss or something? Was it a drug husiness or a drug start,. or did hc
own . . .
Q: I don't kni~u. He was in the law business. He . . .
Q: . had a law firm, I know
1: And seemed like he got to be pretty popular and knew what he was doing too
Q Did he get along okay with the southern Illino~s people or Pouell'5 group?
11: Oh yes he seemed like he got along pretty well with - he knew how to give and t;ikr,
and . . .
Q. \Vould )ou classify him as an Independent"
:I: Yes I would yes.
He was pretty independent
Q: Do you recall the activity that led to the authorization of that commission, the ('OO(;A?
A: Kot too mnch about it any more. I can't recall. More so about him being real active
and pr(,moting it more than anything els?.
Q: Ilid he talk tr~ you :ihrrut the need for the commission?
it with him?
Do you rc~:ill ever discussing
A: Yes I had several conversations with him.
Q: \Yere there [lartieular things that you yourself thought ought to be changeil ill the ivajyou
were doing things?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

'1: Oh 1 probahl) thought there were a lot of things that should be changed. l)ut didn't think
there was much I could do about it. So I nex-er exerted myself too much in that tingle.
Q: What \yere some of the things you thought might work better if the! were rhangrd'
A: Oh, yclu knou- there was a lot of talk went on about doing away with ('hicago and all
that stuff see. 1 think there was too much propaganda to always try to di\.ide the tn-u sections,
Chicago and doxvnstate. If they would work together and thrrr would b~ too murh
friction, I think it would be a whole lot better for the state. Realizing that they
were . . . benefit for all the people and not just certain groups. We were always fighting
who was going to get most of the money spent on roads or on schools or whatever it w:ls. It
seemed like there was always a dividing line south of Springfield. They considered south of
Springlield ;IS no man's land. And nobody lived down there. Paul Powell kind of hated
Chic:igo, he used to say, "We'll show them that all the brains are not in Chicago."
*1: And naturally the Chicago fellows thought there was a hunch of dummies down in southern
Illinois.
Q: What a1)out the relationship between Powell and Daley? Do !II~ know how the! got
along?
A: That wasn't very good. The.y respected each other's - hoth looking for power. That's
the reason Powell always wanted to put himself in position. He worked constantly for that
position so he could he ready in case he needed anything in funds or hacking. cltherwise.
Speaking of that money that Powell had, ti lot of them thought that Powell used that for
his personal use. Well he never spent any money for his personal use. And most of that
was to put himself into position so he could deal with Daley, knowing that if he didn't have
a million dollars to put up when they coir~e along to put a man on the ticket, why, yo11
xvouldn't have a chance to get a man on the ticket
And that was his ambition all the timr, to 1119 in position so he could hold his own with
I)ale)-. But many a time I was in his nfficc and he would he on the phone. Him and Daley
rrally got into it and the words that they exhanged \vouldn't he fit to say. But \vhen the
chips were down though: when they needed each other for the good of the Democrat part!-.
then they would hoth go along.
Q: I'll he darned. e l In regard to that money of Powell's, thc hundreds of thousands
of dollars that were found in shoe boxes and stuff, I understand that a lot of that was aimell
at the fact that he was probably going to be running for governor, and . . .
A: He was building up a kitty that he could get - I don't know whether he xvanteri to run
for govornor or not. He discussed that several times, and - he always thought he'd havr
more patronage really hring in the secretary of state's office. He had control of a lot of
jotls. I don't think he u~~ul~l - he didn't have that under the merit system xvhen he was
there, (lid he?
.I: Conir right aftrr\vards. And he was always against that. Ho w:~sn't for that merit
system. He wantr~l to have a patronage deal. lle was a great believer that to the victor
hrlongs the spoils. I didn't go along with that philosophy all the time brcausr I thought
you ought to have soniebody capable for jobs you know. But nou-. realls-, the) don't have
anything tu work for ;~olitic:llly. You don't have anything to offer them an11 nothing to
rntice thm~ to get active. bIaybe he had something. But so many people lost interest in
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

govcrnnwnt today hecnusr - you go out and try to get thprn to votr "\Vhy should I
rote'.) Why should I get interested in politics? Nothing I car1 gpt." or son~rthing like t.hat.
Where brforr you allvays had some johs and that was always ronsidpred a ver\ lucrative
deal for either party. whoever controlled the secretary of state's offirp. lle had a lot of jobs
there to keep under your control.
Q: N'hat about your district? Did you have jobs that you were al~le lo
A: Oh yes. I always got my share of jobs except when - Don Irving xvas quite a
politician. He worked at it. He was a full-tinw committeenlan over there. And he really
put a lot of time in and always was placing jotls to the right people. That's t.he rcasnn
he controlled his county. Since he left. why, the county's went completel~- t.he other u-ay. It
used to be when ynu was on the Ilernocrat ticket. J-IILI got nuniinated on the Denlorrat ticket,
you was assured of election almost in Pikc (:ounty. But nox it's r~~ntrolled entirely b)
Republicans.
Q: This is Pike County you say'!
.k: Pike (:ounty.
And there was a lot of co~rnties - 111i;~ms (:ount? was a good county when
I was running too for 1)emocrats. And that's kind of turned around to the other \\-;is.
Q: So at that time there was ronsiderahle patronage when
Q: . . . there ~.oulil t~e a rh:~nge in the
A: . . .we'd get under the patronage.
Q: N'e11 let's ser, I guess with the administrative change in 1960 1 guess there would have
been a considerable adjustment at that time.
A: Yes. We got quite a few jobs put in
Q r)o you remember any particular jol>s that vou uere able to place people in at that time?
A: Nn big jobs. I always had a wrong slant at politics. that if somebody come in to me
who I really thought had something on thp ball - >-ou kn~~w, had a chance to really [in snmrthing
for himself - I always advised him to stay out of it. Rot, work for the stat?, unless
he just aanted to do it as a lark to get a litlle education. But to make a caretLr of it, I
told him it was a bad deal because I've seen what hallpens to many people when they were
in and they were out. When the party's in l~o\vr.r, they were in. And then when they were
out of power, then they were out and didn't have a jot>. 1 always told my friends, who was
really I thought friends who I wanted to ~ive the right advice, I always told th~m
they \vt.rtz
better off without a job. Many a time I had a fellow up there, a young fellow wanting a
job. I said, "You'r~ better off to go out here and getting a job someplacr rlstz." Antl I'd
help him yet a joh, place him somewhere else. And in your position you rooltl h~lp him
outside of the 3tate too because :l lot of the people xvould take your rernrnrnenilation if
somebody did \\-ant a job.
Q: How did Paul Po\sell raise that money? I understand that ocrasinnall~
A: Well, thu way that he got it was that - wasn't altogether as I ever operated undvr -
anybody who was in knew that if yciu wanted anything done, you had to have I'o\$-ell go
along with it. Ile had enough following to either defeat a 1)ill or make a bill. He had the
nucIeus of a bill to start with, see, so all you'd need was some additional help to get yo11
a bill put through. Where the same way if he was against it, why, he just about had enough
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

to hlock it if he wanted to. So many people came to me afterwards and said that - who
wasn't aware of it - and said, "I don't know how dumh I could he to come up there and
think I was going to ilo this and do that." And later on after associating around I could
give an opportunity to see how things really operate and then they told me later on. "I don't
know how dumh I could he to think I could do this or do that without - after seeing the
operation and how it really went."
So the fellow who was on - knew what the score was, they could go out here and try to
buy anything off when they needed it. They would give money to Powell ahead of time you
know through the course of the years. And Powell just had a kitty there and he stuck this
money in the kitty. Some fellow in different types of businesses or different things didn't
want - they got a lot of these nuisance hills come in. They knew they were going to pop
up every year or two. And there was always a sneaker. They could come in with
then]. And there was always a chance of it so if they didn't have somehody alert enough
to take care of it, Powell could kill the damned thing himself if he wanted to, and so it's
cheaper for them to donate hirn ten thousand dollars and take care of him than it was to
waste all the time watching them and be watching for them.
And Powell also - some of the hoys got in trouble financially or through sickness or something
or had throughout - prohably Powell made them a loan out of the deal. And at election
time where he thought somehody needed some help and that was one of the hoys that
went along, why, he would see that he was properly financed too. He never sent me much
because he figured I had enough. But I know a lot of the other hoys, he give them pretty
substantial amounts from the table.
Q: I understand one of the strengths of Paul Powell was that he was a full-time legislator
hack then.
A- He stayed there and he practically lived in Springfield all the time. And on? thing got
publicized about him is you could see Powell any time. In those days you had St. Nick Hotrl,
he stah-ed there. And naturally you could see everybody who was in the three hotels. If
they was in Springfield that day, you could contact them sometime. Sure, you could see
I'olvell. He done more business prob;ihl!- hefore hreakfast there with people he'd see and
meet.
And then even in his office, he had people comr in and see him, why, thry hail a full officr
and some of the boys nould tell them to send the secretary in and say, "Mr. so-and-so has
to leave no\\-. He's got a conference," or "He's got a me~ting." Powell would stay in that
office until nine, ten o'clock to see everyhody that was \\-aiting on him. It got to t h point ~
where he had the support of a11 the - lot of Democrat, Rel~uhlicans too.
He \\as very active in this fair deal which gives him a lot of support, hcrause he toclk
Q: Like county fairs . . .
A: ('ounty fairs ant1 dilferent things. Naturally a lot of them were - the he;rds of thrm
were Republicans and I'o\vcll was always great at promoting the fairs. 1Ie always pron~utrd.
seeing that the) \\,ere \vcll financed, he always comr up with hills that - I think I was on
n committrr with hinl un that too. And naturally those people, if they ever wanted to get
anything done. why, they had to have Ponell.
Q: Well let's see, it was a long time. or. Iel's sre - ;r (.ouplp sessions before you xx-err there,
in 1951. 1!153 I guess when he got into this ('hicago Downs racetrack.
A: Racetrack, he bought some
Q. .hi hou~ht, what was it. fifty thousand shares .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: For ten cents a share then yes
Q: Were you aware of that at the time?
A: I learned about it later. I could have bought some racetrack stock too real cheap. Rut
I didn't want any. I could have got a lot of stocks that they had offered to me, some of
the guys did, to get in on the deal. But I never cared. First place I wasn't interested in
racing. Racing just wasn't my hohbies at all. I never thought much of it. And from an
investment standpoint I didn't know nothing about it, and I didn't get into it. I always liked
to know a little something about where I put my money into something. I always dealed
in stocks at that time already anyway. I had my own portfolio and I owned two or three
other stocks that was offered - but one of them was that helicopter deal I think. Froni
the airport over to - what's that, that new - the airport they built out there?
Q: Oh at Springfield?
A: No at Chicago.
Q: O'Hare?
A: O'Hare. And supposed to have a helicopter deal. Could have got in on that deal,
because they had to have some legislation through at that time or something. I don't know
what it was they were - part of the - yes, to get to the airport out there I think we had
to have some legislation through and they was going to make a deal on some stocks for
everyone some but . . .
Q: There was a matter, I helieve, at that time of connecting that land to the city so
that . . .
A: Something on that, I can't recall what it was. Rut I could have got some - then it 11robably
turned out alright. But I had plenty of good stocks. And I wouldn't buy any other
stocks.
Q: How ahout this hlind trust that they set up to get Cahokia Downs started? Did hou know
ahout that?
A: I didn't know too much about it. I went along with all the racetrack deals. I don't know
why. I just did. To me, I thought, "UTell what the hell, if they or anybody is fool enough
to spend their money on racetracks, let them spend it." I was a great believer in not regulating
people's morals. If they want to gamhle, let them gamble, whatever they want lo
do. I never got anything out of it, never. Used to get a lot of tickets, get a stack of tickets
and I'd he down at the bar and never used lheni yet. Never did go and never cared ahout
going.
But I think a lot of people thought I made a lot of money on the racetracks because I always
went along and voted for all the bills. Rut one thing I did that was on account of knowing
Pou,ell and Ben Knight got interested too in a racetrack up in Chicago at that time too
and . . .
Q: Who was that?
A: Joe Knight. Ile got interested. He made a lot of money out of some valuable land up
there and raised horses clear up there to^). But none of them ever offered me any money
for any of my votes. Was just understood, if they'd have asked me, I'd have voted for it
anyway. But my thinking was all along in regard to gambling I was always prettbliberal.
If they wanted to run slot machines, they wouIdn't have to pay me. I'd just say
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

it would he alright or whatever they wanted to run because I could never see where you
couId du any good by curtailing all these things, by lam-.
Q: We11 what do you think of the commotion that went on in regard to gamhling with pinllall
machines? Think it was around 1961 or something along . . .
A: Yes. I rememher that too very well. I can rememher talking about - see, that's \\hen
Stevensun was governor. He and I used to disruss that quite a bit. We all\-ays liked the
governor real well. I thought he was a high-class man. But he and I had a different philosophy
in regard t(~ that altogether.
Q: Was that Stevenson or Kerner?
A: That was Stevenson at that - in 1951
Q: I see. I was thinking later, that
A: That \\-as later years
(2: I think it was around 1961 when they finally outlawed them for gambling. And that
\\-oulrl have been about the Kerner . . .
.A: Kerner
Q: So you weren't too much concerned with that, whether they (lid or didn't . . .
:I: Pinhall never mad? me a hell r~f a lot of difference.
I never cared much ahout that
Q: They had gone in the year that you came in the) had increased tremendousl~. the nulnher
of legislators. What was your position regarding the numbers that they hadl Wrre there
too man) or not enough?
A: Well I never did like the way the two and one or whatever it was, two in a district -
if you had two men of the same party and you had an opposite governor, the one in the
minority, he rvr~uld block your hill if you had a good hill. They wouldn't want to give you
credit for doing anything.
Q: LVant to wait until the next go-round.
A: Next governor. So what would ynu'vr done? You'd do a lot of work. I know \-:I roul~le
of tIe;~ls where the opposite party did a lot of work to get ever>-thing done. The olil)ositz
uf thcln in the governor's office, so the governnr wouldn't go along with it. The nrxt gi,-
roun~l, why, here comes a fellow from the opposite p:lrty. FIe's putting up thr sanre
thing. Hc had the foundation laid. FIe gets all thv credit for. it. And never even though
ahout the issue hcfore.
Norv I think it's going ti, he ;r lot hetter. You're going to have a man in thcrtj. You've
got one, and hr's going to get all the hlame, one way or the other. .And annthcr thing you
did, if you didn't get anything done; why, they'd t)l;rmr? it on the 0thc.r fcll~~n and vice
versa. And a lot of times they uwuldn't go along with you either if it \vas on the same
party. The>-'d figure you was going tn get too nruch credit and heconre iot~ pupl!lat. in the
election. The?- were always afraid of that it seemed like.
(2. IVhat :~t~out the specific numbers"
2011 or sonre . . .
I)u yuu fwl that this is adequate or shoul~i therr he
.I. No I think it's suficient thv way it is now. 1 think th~,y'\.c pretty ~x-rll got trrrilory that
gives them enough ivnrk anrl still it's snrall enough that - rn\-~kr thenr take care of it
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

too. It's not too far frorn anybody to see their legislator. I think he il iilcas that somebody else might promote for you but . . .
Q: Do you recall Leland Rayson? He was kind of a way-out
A: I can't remember him
Q: HI. was from south Chicago. And the next area was Scariano there
A: Scariano. 1 remember him very well and Mike Goodman was my . . .
Q: Srariano seemed to be ahle to get things done hetter than some of the Independents
A: Yes. UTell he got along with them a lot better.
Q: no you have any idea of how he did that, or . . .
A: KII I don't. only that he was very open. He had a nice personality, a lot better than
some of these fcllow~ who was real reserved with themselves. I don't know his trackgro~~nd.
\\,]lether he had been in business. What was he? U'as he a . . .
Q: A lawyer
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Yes.
A
somrthing.
fle might have had some training that would affect be in^ in business of some kind or
Q: Well, his big thing was being a lawyer for srhool districts
A: School districts
Q: . . . and that sort of thing around that area
A: I see
Q: One of his hig propositions that he was pushing all the time was open hearings. Do you
recall his actions . .
A: Oh yes I rememher that. Yes sir. And I thought that was a good idea 1)rcause too many
of these - different - I wonder what you'd call them? government agencies that have hrarings,
they run it to suit themselves. They don't let anybody know lrhat's ~oing on.
And I think a lot of them do it yet. Even some of them today is not aware that they're
not iillowed to do it. Because most people don't know that they are allowed to go into the
meetings. But that's something of importance. There's always somebody aware of it. I
know of several occasions around that I hear that somehody heard was going to he a meeting,
and the? went over purposely. And now if they wasn't allowed to get in, they couldn't hare
got in. But now they at least can get in. Even if thr>'re not wanted.
Q: How ahout Abner hlikva? Did you know him very well'?
11: Yes I ~ o to t know him pretty well. (pause) He didn't get along with the - he \%.as
kind of a. . . . kept to himself. Him and two or three other guys 11p there really kind of
formed a Ernup of their own if I rememher correctly. They were always mostly opposing
anything Powell did too, they . . .
Q: Oh'?
A: . . . weren't too much on Powell's theory
Q: [lid >nu get a sense of why they were against Powell so much or what
A: \Yell. I think there was a lot of jealous? ahout Po\vell for one thing. I think some of
these other fello\t-s rvould trade power, ant1 they couliln't get it. They'd likr to have il and
thry couldn't get it. I know the first time - I don't know whether I told you this or not
- the first time I accosted some of then] younger boys - and Powell was running for
Speaker 1 think. I can't rrmenrher who that was anymore. And Bill 1,yons and a gro11[1 of
them come up to sep me. I don't think he got to be Speaker. He got to he minority Ic:~llrr,
I guess, that's what it turned out to he. I don't think we had control of the house. But
iome of them was try in^ to - Alan Llixon %\-as one of them. He's a good friend of n~inr
today. Alan is. :lnd - he had ambition. Ire wanted to hare the job.
\Yell some of the younger tloys \\-as hacking him. The>- come up to see me. And luckily I
wasn't too - what do call - it might hare been I didn't know too much :~hout the
operatilly [proceilure] but I dirl tell them that if Porvell wasn't interested. then I \vould go
for Alan. Ilnd I was glad many a time later on that I said that hecause Po\vell had all
the follotving anyu-ay tu get - Alan tinally withdr~n. And he could do it diplonratically
and Powell was still supporting him where if I \vould have - but I'o\vcll still had a feeling
krg~~inst these other people who were backing Dixon, see.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Yes
A: FIe resented that very much. I remember Paul - a couple fellows he had helped. And
he said, "That's what you get by helping somebody out." So . . .
Q: Well Dixon was really pushing I guess from the beginning to
A: Oh yes. Divon was a pusher. He was ambitious and he was ivant~ng to - he loved
to talk.
Q: Oh is that, right?
A: Oh yes. Dixon was a good orator, considered a good orator. But he was too bounc !.ears
ago, people didn't pay much attention to Alan to start with. Ile'd go up there and that's
just - a lot of them liked to make a show. And it used to be common practice for you
to have the schools to visit you and different ones. When they were there you'd try to
arrange to have your bill up so you could speak on it so you rould have them ulr in the
gallery to listen to you, see. And Alan xvas great for that.
Q: Well. (rhuckles)
A: And half the other people would be around reading the newspaper. They heard the speech
so often that they didn't pay no attention to it. It made a bad impression on some of the
outsiders because they'd come back home thinking, "Ilell, nobody's doing a damned thing
sitting around there reading the newspaper." And well, you've heard it hefort,. you knew
all about it. But the ones from the outside didn't know what was going on.
Q. Did you do that ver)- much?
A: Not too often, once or twice 1 belitzvr
Q: L)o you remember an> speritir orrasions \+here it occurred'
4: Oh 1 rememlrer one time I had a group from Quincy over therr. 1 aanted to make an
impression on them. And 1 made a speech on it. And 1 had plenty rrf htalp to set it up
so they would - you'd have to be in with your Speaker and 1 think Warren Wood aas
Speaker then. Warren was always real friendly to me. 1 always liked Warren. He was very
cooperative of anything 4-ou wanted to do. He would sure help you out in any way.
Q. I suppose short of a political tangle of an) sort
4: Oh then it would he different yes.
Q: Well let's see now. Ralph Smith - wasn't he Speaker after
A: Let's see, was Ralph Speaker'!
Q: After Powell, I believe. The second time lhat Powell was Speaker, then it was - just
before Touhy, would have been 1963 1 guess.
A: Yes. Ralph turned out to be a real good friend of mine. But hv didn't have the follow in^
and the influence that he should have had for some reason or another. Hc got in because
he was the minority party all the lime in his district it seemed like. hn~l he really \v;~sn't
too well known in Alton, you know, in his own town because he didn't havv to c;~rnlr:~ign
any because he had control of the party. So he was just auto~natically elertrd. He didn't
have to go out like the rest of the boys did, whereas they had competition. And you'd ask
about him in Alton, not too many people knew him.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Well let's see, he lived in Edwards\ille didn't he? Or was he from Alton itself?
A: I think he was from Alton itself. He had an office at home
Q: :\nil people didn't know it thpre
A: Yes. His wife still comes up to have dinner with me once in a while now. I-le ran for
state senator that one time. He got appointed by - Dirksen's place.
Q: Oh. Well, this was in Congress you mean then.
A: Congress, yes
Q: What about William Pollack? Did you get to know him very well?
A: I didn't know him too well. I knew him. you know. He was a leader over on his -
ob-er on the Republican side. He worked hard. It seemed like he worked hard at his job. I
don't know whether he was real shrewd or not. See, I don't recall too much about some of
his deals but I remember he was real active on the Ruur when he was minority leader or
whatever it was. I can't recall what it was anymore.
Q: Yes he was minority leader
4: Minority leader, is that what it was?
(1: . . . when I'owell was in. And I've heard it said that he spoke on everything. .And
A: Yes he was always speaking, very active. But I don't know how much influence he
had. We on our side wouldn't pay much attention to him because me were pretty much
organized and anything he went for politicalwise, why, we'd always oppose anyway. They
were fighting for position pretty much then. And Poweli usually kept us advised pretty much
on bills. .And if it was an administration bill, why, you automatically knew that they
expected you to go along on that bill. So you didn't pay much attention to anything, what
anybody said. You knew how you were go in^ to vote already on it because you'd go along.
Q: Did you go along on most of the administration bills?
A. Ye3 unless they was too far out I uiually went along with them.
Q: Do you remember any that you considered were too far out'.'
A: Oh not offhand I don't. Can't recall any of then]. Once in a while I - can't remember
- ran't rer;ill what thry were - but several limes I said, "I belong on the olher side of
Ihe aisle," berause I u-auldn't go along with soruethin#.
Q: \Yell, what did 1'on.ell sag about that'!
.A: He :~lways upheld for me. He says
(taping slopped lo greet custonirrs, then resumed)
Q. So he wouidn'l sa? an auful lot \\ hvn you
A No he'd al\rays brin~ it up this way. IIe said, "No\v if it hurts you in your iiistrirl."
hr says, "it's perfectll- alright." He was alu.ays fair in that respect. Otherwise he told you
he'd rrrtainly not only appreciate it, he expected you ti1 ~o ;ilong.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Were there many caucuses?
A: Oh yes we caucuspd all the time
Q: Oh you did?
A: I believe so, more than the Republicans did. We always had a caucus. And Poivell and
Choate's the one that had control of the caucus, seemed like. And Choate done :I good job
with that too. That's the reason I couldn't understand whl- Choate didn't get going more
afterwards. But seemed like he needed Powell's surroundings some reason or nothe her
to ...
Q: I've understood or heard that Choate's not progrpssing - like when he got in the fight
with Redmond for the leadership and that sort of thing - it was partially a backlash because
of his association with . . .
A: With Powell?
Q: Yes
A: Yes I guess it could have been, because a lot of them - I know they still think I'm a
crook, a lot of them do. They'd see Po!vell's picture un the wall and they'll think, "He's
crooked." and I'll say, "UTell he hasn't stole any people's money." And I said, "What did
he do?" And they said. "Oh, he stole people's money." And I said, "Whose moneb- did he
steal?" I said, "Part of that was mine. He just didn't get around to get it h:~ck."
Q: (chuckles)
A: But they'd make accusations and they don't know what they're talking about. Ile ditln't
steal anybody's none)-. Just like that money that was found in that garage up there. tIe
probahly had a whole raft of mail, wasn't opened, a lot of it wasn't, checks. Well a lot of
people claimed they lost their money. We11 they lost their checks which was never
cashed. The checks were never cashed.
What happened, Powell give some of - this is what I was getting to before on your patronage
deal and jobs - if Powell gave somebody a job there that wasn't capable of that position,
the job was too big for him and he couldn't handle it and lie just takes the mails out by
boxes and just stashes out in that little garage there. And a couple of years later they finds
it all, applications, checks and all. If somebody was stupid enough to send it in in cash.
he probably lost that. But not many people do that totlay. They always tell you not to
send cash. But I've got some friends of mine, said, "Oh, we lost our money. We never get
it in our lives." And I said, "Check and see if you got )-our check cashed." Well they goes
back and checks their checks and their check was never cashed either. And they were just
to blame there.
So he didn't steal any of that money. And if Pow-ell ever heard of anybody doing anything,
he'd be fired. That's one thing I know because I was working for him for a year or so. I
don't know how or where he got the funds. I know he had a hell of a time funding it for
a whil?. Thpn he told me he better quit it because he might get caught doing it. I think
that's about th? funds prohahly. He probably picked that up. But I was working for
him. And all I did was go around to these pIaces to see how they aer? oy?rating. Antl
he said, "If you ever catch anybody that's not doing their job," he wanted to know.
I know a fellorv hy the name of Ciaccio who was an a~lministrati\.e assistant for
years. Ciaccio - he had arthritis. I remember it. And he used to resent me because I could
go into Powell's ofice any time, you know. I'd come in and Powell wanted to see me,
see. And he'd [Ciaccio] always want it to go through him.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Oh, I see.
A: Ht. thought that 1 should see him Well Powell didn't give a damn ahout him. He
wanted to see me. And I didn't want to see him. Powell wanted to kt~ow w.hat I
knew. And I could always go in. Now I hated to make this fellow mad hut I knew he resented
me all the time because - I don't know what he thought. I don't think he - I don't
know if he knew what I was doing, see. Because it wasn't on the . . .
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumed)
Q: So let's see. \re were talking about when you were working for Potvell. Where did you
po? What . .
A: Well I traveled all over the state
Q: Oh you did?
A: Yes it was a real good job for nit. because I got my expenses paid. And then I tvoul~l
run down to the farms in Fairfield. I could run down there every tveek and make it one
trip a week and I could stop, oh, at different towns, Bellerille and different - Granite City
and wherever they had a drivers license station. .knd visit around a little while. Then whilc
I upas down in Fairfield I could run over to Lawrenceville and all those places from
Fairfield. And wouldn't take long to run over and make three or four stops. Then if I
wanted to go to Chirago I rauld go to Chicago or go any place I wanted to go. I could pick
out my own place, any place I wanted to go. Why, nobody told me where to go.
Q: Was this without warning? You just popped into a station
A: Oh yes. Oh yes, absolutely
Q: Did > 011 find any ~iisrrepancies?
.k: Oh yes. We found several. Over at Quincy they were keeping the station open at night,
see. They did it for convenience for workers who didn't have a rhanre to get there (luring
the daytime so they kept them open on Wednesday night. So after you go to all the trouhle
of getting somebody a job and then they think it's too much work 10 take care of their job
see. And then there wouldn't 1)c anybody up at the station on those l~articular nights. So
I went up there and a lot of times I staged right there. And then they w-ould keep it
open. They didn't know when I \vas coming in.
So that went along for a year or so. Then finally I guess Powell had to run it through son~e
!rays. So then he hail me to come in, and I hall to sic11 in when I was there and \\.hen
I left.
Q: Oh is that right? (ctu~ckles)
A: But I (lon't know what happened then. I guess that's when he probably had ti1 pet some
appropriation or something for it. And they wanted to know actually what you n.:~s doing
so you had to - but then that was really no good because they kne\r yr,u \\.as thrrr
any\vay. Ycnl got more results by not reporting yourself. They didn't know who you n.err
when you'ci come into a place and you could sit around. You didn't nant to make yourself
too conspicuous. You could sit around and see what was going on.
Q: Dill any of the prople get mad at you when they were
A: The local people'!
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Yes, any of those people
A: Well one time we had an example over at a little town over here in my district. I was
following the girl operating it. I don't know, they got their signals mixed up. And neither
one of them reported one day. One thought the other was going to be there. And sure
enough, why, I happened to drop in, and the thing was closed.
Q: Well!
A: Then Ciaccio or what's his name, he immediately wanted to fire them all se'. BUL it
turned out that this fellow \!.as going to run for an office, political office. And I said, "Well
there's no use of firing him. He's going to run for an office. And," I said, "he might be
a good vote-getter and if he gets eIected and we don't need him, you're not going to have
to fire him anyway. And if he don't get elected, he'd have to resign heforr he'd run for
the office anyway. And then you won't have to hire him hack." Funny thing, though, this
fellow died and we didn't have to do anything so . . .
Q: Well. Solved the problem
A: Yes
Q: Let's see, this person - that's C-I-11-C-C-0, wasn't it?
A: Ciaccio was his name. They ralled hini Side Show
Q: Side Show
A: IIe was Ciacrio. IIe mas Paul's administrative assistant
Q: Was he pretty effertive?
A: Well, yes. He had to be real good I guess or Paul wouldn't have had him. IIe was an
administrator. He had some kind of a arthritis. I don't knon whether he's still living ur
not anymore, could he. He was a lawyer in Springfield, I think, of sonle type. Hut I could
tell he resented me heing too close to Po\velI. Whether he thought I was reporting on him
or something that he didn't know anything about or what, I don't know.
Q: Did Powell have others like that in other vicinities'!
A: Hr didn't to start with. I was the only one. And then he had to find jobs, I guess, for
somebody. And he put a couple of more on. I guess he put somp people on who were controversial,
you know, and they prohahly got an inquiry because I rrmemher him telling me,
"We're sure going to have to watch what we do. They're watching us pretty close now." ilnd
hefore I guess he got this money mayhe out of the - I was paid out of the kitty.
Q: Well, do you think maybe that might have had - what was his name - Porcaro, I think
they called hini . . .
A: Oh, yes, that's right, I'orcaro, he's another one, t.hat's right. I always recall that I'o\vc,ll
sap, "When I went to his wedding, I knelt down and he took from me and" - ahout all
he said. He thought he was t.he most trusted man he fvas and then he got into trouhle
on his drivers license that time. That's one reason he . . .
Q: Had to tighten up?
A: Yes. The last few months I had it, t.he last six months mayhe, we had distrirts. HI,
had to have more johs I guess so he got to divide it up some. So he give a fellow ilo\\-n
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

in the Granite City area - he was ti big politician doun there. I can't remrmt~er who he
was. I know him too, hut I can't recall his name. But he was quite a supporter of
Poll. And that's why we had to start signing in because they had to start showinp that
they did something. Before they didn't know whether you did anything or not. But I
always did somrthing. I was out working, probably more effective then than we \\-as in the
second way of operating.
Q: \Tell let's see, how come you got that job? Did >-OLI go ask for it?
.A: KO. KO, he just wanted to have nie on the payrrlll I guess or something. And he wanted
to know. I-le really wanted to do a good job. 1'11 say that about Po~vell. :\ lot of then1
thought otherwise. But he really wanted to make a namr for himself around that secretarjof
state's office. more effirient. than anybody else operated it. He wanted to have that name.
Powell tor~k a big pride in doing something like that and he wanted tc~ do it righl.
He was like Joe Knight was with his operation. Joe Knight will go down in history as one
of the country gentlemen who would never do anything dishonest or anything. And here
he pot caught up in that damned little deal with the governor. And that saving and loan
deal and nearly picked up all his estate. 1Vhic.h Joe really didn't do an>-thing out of the
w-ay. I can't see where he did anything out of the way.
SESSION 7, TAPE 10, SIDE 1
Q: You mentioned the other day your billbook was on your desk. Did you set up a s!-sten,
of any sort for keeping track of bills?
A: I had a book of mj- own that I would make a note of all the important hills that come
up. 1'11 have a stack of them a foot high or two foot high probably at the end of the
session. They just kept accumulating there on top of the desk. But then we acre given
a sheet every once in a while to try to compare our - caucusing grou],, what do you call
it'' - would send you a sheet and remind you when things \vould come up to you.
Q: Oh the important bills that
.4: The iml~ortant bills, yes.
Q: Thr. ones they figured were important. Flow ahout the [Legislalive] Uopsis and
Llid you use that verl- much?
.\ Oh j es It was verj helpful.
12: Let's sec, who was in the Legislative Reference Burrau at that tin~cl \Vas I'inklr there'?
A: Finklr, he was around
4: . . . in Springfield. Yes he was very :iccon~modating. He was verl- helpful
Q: Did yuu have him draft the hills frrr j-ou that
A. \Vhat was the ntlnre of the other fellon ther(1 too? I v:in't recall
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Who?
Q: Bobbitt was there.
A: Bobbitt. Bobbitt was there. Yes he'd draft several hills for me
Q: Ilow would you go about doing that'!
A: Oh you'd come up with an idea. First, you had your Reference Bureau setup and they
would get you all the data that you wanted. And then you'd give a general idea of what
you wanted. And they'd just draft the whole thing for you.
Q: You'd go in thrre and sit down with them and go over il
A: Yes
Q: Take them very long to get a draft out?
A: Oh it deprnds on what type of bill it was. You had to look hack and see if it was conHirting
with some other bills or whatever.
Q: On any of those bills, did you ever ask the Legislative ('nuncil to (in research'!
A: Oh yes they did a lot of rrsearrh on them, usually t)ef(~re they \voul(l draft your bill for
US see.
Q: Were there any other individuals in there that you remember working with?
A: Oh I can't recall their names anymore. I do definitrly rememhrr nohhitt and
Snicksnickle or whatever his name was. There was a few others in there that I become
personally acquainted wii.h too. I can't recall their names offhand.
Q: They had a little library there, or still have a little library. Did you wer have occasion
lo use it?
11: Not too much. Can't recall too much about that
Q: Do you remember Mrs. McCreary that was the librarian there for Ihe Rrference Bureau?
A: I don't recall her.
Q: She's still there. I don't
A: Is she?
Q. . . . know how many years she's been thrre. She's still around
Well let's see, once you had developed a bill like, say for example, the bills where you were
getting appropriations set up for the feasibility study on thr bridge, what did you (lo once
it started to move? Did you follow it closely, and . . .
A: Oh yes. You tried to keep pretty much awar? of whatever was going on and see how
Ihe pulse of everything was, see.
Q: Now you were on Road and Bridge Committee in 1955 and 1957. Was thal u-her? thcy
looked at that particular hill?
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

:I: Oh yes, oh yes
Q: What other road and bridge type items do you recall coming up while you wwre on that
committee your first two sessions?
.4: I can't recall too much. I remember several bills in regard to thew lower
~listricts. They wanted them to pay state-prevailing wages and then not let then1 just build
pieces r~f road. They used to have a road commissioner and not let them to just go out
there and build any way the)- u-anted to, if they wanted to build according to a state si~tbcification.
I never was too much fur that because I thought in our area it mas better for him to go
out and do a little, help the whole area, than it was to go out here and set up a projrct
and use all the money fur that one project. But they, most of them, u-as of the opinion that
too much money was wasted and doing no gor~d. "Like you put a rock in a hole for a spring,
hut it'd thaw out and then next spring it would do the same thing over again. Well I agree
with 1-ou." But at least it helped for a while. They \\,as wanting to build something permanent
when you'd build it. And I guess in the long run that's the proper may to do it. But
we didn't get nothing of that down in our area.
Q: Did you have any major roadway plans for down in the area?
A: Yes I had a plan but we kept getting a road out of a - see we had a federal highway
system that was from Hamburg and Hardin. And I was always wanting to get a road to
connect frurn Hardin to the ferries. And I mas constantly pushing. We finally put a lirtlr
at a time of what they called matching-funds program deal. Build some evrry four or five
years, as soon as the county got enough money to match the state on it. I forget what hallpened,
at 90 prrcent. We had to furnish 10 perrent. Federal and the state furnished !I0
percent of it. But these small counties had a hell of a time coming up with the 10
percent. So we had a space of times when we had an accumulation of funds somrtime. I
always told them the state would borrow money and I always told them to go ahead and
huild it. The state's not going to take it away from you after you build it anyway. But it
\\.as hard to convince a lot of proplr on that. But we just kind of convinced then], they
could not ser that part. My theory was you could promise them anything and as long as
you got it, they wasn't going to take it away after you had it.
Q: So you were able to get improvements on the roads
A: Oh yes me got a lot of improven~ents. And then I got that road resurfaced fron~ Atlas
down to Pleasant Hill. But that was more by having influence with the department. Yuu
didn't have to go through any legislation for that.
Q: LVell let's see now. you went for severaI sessions pushing for the bridge there to replace
the ferry.
A: Yes
Q When did you give up on that and turn to gelling a ferr) in there'!
:A: Well I talked to a lot of people. Naturally, those days, your hontls wrre in demand, and
all the bonding houses were very much interested in ~~icking up thrse bonds. This was a
~~r~ifitahle deal I guess. I didn't know too much :11iout financing bonds at that particular
ti111,. But cvery time I'd go someplace they knew that 1 was connecteit with thr
h r i e 4nd I'd go to Chicago or anywhere and they'd wan1 to entertain you and try to
get all the information possible they could pertaining to the bridge.
One day I harl a nlan coming down from Chicago with me on a train. I can't rernvrnt)er
who he was anymore. He said. "U'ittmond, you've got a good idea," he said, "but you'll never
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

2t.t it tl~rou~li until you have a road leading to this deal. An,l th:it iiin't hut a sr~conilary
l~igl~way." he says. And that was the most scnsihle remark I hcerd of anyhotly making
a~lxnarh of it. Hc knew what he was talking about heciiuse xi-hvn 1-ou'1.c traveling you 11irk
1113 a map. You always go bb- the marked route. Evcn though the othr:r road's a lot hrttrr,
you don't know anything about it. You're a stranger in the arra. You just pick the onr
that's a svcll-named highway. And if I could have got that rerouted and marked 66, which
was - 66 was a promint?nt highway years ago, [it's] IT.S. 55 no\\ - why, I cnul~l 11:lr.v got
a hridge then, see. See the study would have showed there ~voulti have been enough tratfir
to warrant it. But without a highway leading to it you couldn't get noho~ly going there
because you didn't have a highway to go over there then. The river was closed OH. Svv.
anybody would be foolish to - for a stranger to go into an area where he didn't knox if
he was going to get across the river or not. So how could you develi~l) any trxfic
there? You couldn't get any traffic. So every study I had made showrd it was nnt possi1)le
to fund a bridge.
So then one day I was talking to Ralph Martlesmeyer and I got talking about a free
ferry. And he thought that would be a pretty good idea. First thing, two or three of us
fellows was going to buy the ferry and put in one if I could get a permit from the state.
So I had to get a bill put through to get permission to put a bridge. The 0111 law was that
anybody operating had a mile on either side of the ferry, see - permit. You can't carry
them. No one could have come any closer to thr ferry. So there was no way in the area
to land, if you didn't get any closer to a mile to get to a highway. So I had to grt a trill
put through to permit you to - I think I worded it, "within a thousand feet of another
ferry," see. That was m)- first bill. Never thinking about a free ferry. I thought we n.oulil
put one in. I would get it funded some way.
And I had a couple of prominent citizens to gvt intvrvstv~l in it, Frank Powers and Bill LVatts
and Joe Knight. And we took a ride over. Joe Knight t)rought over a thing. It would have
been a profitable deal. I tried to tell them it would certainly be a money-rnaking deal. They
were going to try to make a stock company out of it, mayhe sell stock. And I was thinking
about getting a construction cornl,any to do the work for maybe 50 percent of the stock or
something like that.
But when it summed all UIJ, n~)t)o~ly seemed to have much enthusiasm ahout it. I remernhcr
Joe and I on a hot day one day u-e was ilr~wn and wr tore off a muffler off our car. .In11
then we ran out of gas. And Joe had tu walk about a . . .
Q: Well. ichucklesl
A: . . . half 21 mile up the hill and get surnehody's gas, and - it was a hectic da3-. So then
I thought, "\Vcll I'll try and get a free ferry." That was really hard to promote. There
was no money, no appropriation. anything to get clear. And half the people, the legislators,
didn't even know where Calhuun County was.
\Veil I had to do a lot of entertaining to get it known ahout the area and different things.
In fact I was trying to promote a deal to get a husload to take a trip down through the
area. See most people didn't even know where Calhuun County was. They'd never heard
of it when I first went in the legislature. As far as that goes, a lot of them still don't know
yrt. I tried to get some donations towards that. I couldn't get donations. One fellow give
me thirty-five dollars, I think from Pepsi-Cola. And I sent that bark to him too. I thought,
"Well hell if that's all I'm going to get, I might as well do it all myself."
So then I was talking to Ralph Martlesmeyer one day and I brought this suhjett up to
him. Well he didn't know if he could get any money funded for it. But I got talkinl: to
some of the other boys around. They were indehted to me an11 the)- s:~i~l. MPII, they'll go
along with me on the deal. That's how it goes. Everybody thought it u.as in~possit~lv to
get any appropriations for it.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

So I put the bill in anyway to get a free ferry. And luckily I got it on the first reading
and then I got it on the serr~nd reading, got it past the house and got it in the senate. .And
then begin to worry about it hecause I wasn't very influential in the senate. I hat1 a fmv
senator friends, Bill Ls-ons and Grindle and those boys. But they didn't have enough power
to - they figured Bill was out for something himself all the time. But he couldn't get too
many votes over there. And Lillian Schlagenhnuf nas a senator too. She's a swell woman
hut she didn't have any control over too many votes or influence over too many votes.
So I used to go in Peter's office and we used to he in there a lot. Anti I'd bring him up
some sausage, we'll fry some sausage in there, or play a little poker with him. One day
after that thin^ lagged around quite a while, and I was trying to promote it, he says, "That
ferry bill mean anything to you?" And I says, "You damned right it does." 1 said, ''I'ii
sure like to have it." He said. "How do you and Ralph Martlesmeyer get along?" I said,
"Oh, we're buddy-buddies." Ralph and I aIways did get along. Ralph went out of his way
a lot of times to hold up a conference for a delegation I'd brought up. He'd sneak out of
another meeting and come over and tell them to put them over in another room. And then
when I just. had a group come up unexpectedly, why, he would - oh, he was tied up hut
he'd sneak away five or ten minutes to come over and hold a meeting with your
delegation. So he and I were real - pretts- close, and so I said. "Well he and I get along
alright." And Peters said, "Well, give him a ring and ask him to hold that bill up for the"
- oh, what do you call it? "the . . . highway code."
And I called him up and he was embarrassed and started apologizing No, he didn't have
it quit? completed yet. And we was damned glad he didn't then. Peters hr~llered over and
said, "T?ll him to hold the damned thing up a while." And so Ralph did that. In the meantime
w? got my bill and cooperated in this highwa) code see. And then when it came on
the floor nobody knew - the>- couldn't delete it verl- well and nobody read the - don't read
it anyway, what the hell. you're going to vote for it anyway. It was an administration hill
anyway, the highway rode was, so hell they all voted for my ferry bill and didn't know what
they were voting for.
Q- ichuckles)
A: And I just left it sit on the first reading. Firs1 Peters said, "That thing sets out like
a sore eye there." IIe says, "You're going to have a hell of a time getting that through
the Appropri:~tions Committee with that." Which I \\auld have because when I had it in
the house Harry Stremlau got up and \\-as on the house Hoor and said noboily lived down
there and they didn't need any money like that spenl in that area.
So the> a11 voted for it. And the governor signed the bill. I was waitinx to actually see
if he signed the hill. The governor was alwabs in favor of it anyxvab-. 1'11 discussed it with
him quitr frequently already about the roails and hridges d0xi.n there ant1 the fur), And
ht.'d have went along anyway. .Any bill I finally got passed through the senate. hp'd sign
it, even though he was the oppositr party at that time, see.
Q: )That year a-as this?
;I: lTnder the Stratton adrninistr:~tion
(3: Stratton.
A I don't knlr\v nhat sear that uas anymore
Q: Well it nould havp had to have bren in 1955 or 1937, n~ayhe the first nu srcond
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: So it was Senator Peters then that helped you get it through, huh'.'
A: He really helped me yes. The rest of them all helped to get it through the houst,. I
need a lot of help from the rest of the hoys. But when it cxme right dnnn to it, Peters
was the one who advised me how to promote thc deal because after :dl you had to haw
money and get that thing through Appropriations. "You know over at thc senate." he said.
"you're going to have a problem." Because ever>-body else was wanting - nlonpy \v:ls tight
then. See 1 had to vote for the sales tax to get this passed through thv hol~s~.. Thtlt's ~IIP
reason the governor was aside, see, that's when my vote and Powell's vote and (?h~~:~tr's \ott>
was the three determining votes on that sales tau.
(taping stopped to greet customers, then resumedl
A: Twenty-five percent of the income derived frorr~ this land was taken a\v:~y 1)) the ferl~r:~I
government. I got that bill put through too. Several other representatives fror~r the district
tried it several times hut they could never get it through for some reason. I don't
know why. And I got that pushed through and it benefited all the counties, Calhoun nil
Pike and Jersey, all of them bordered the Illinois River all up and down the ri\.rr. Calhoun
County received a larger sum as a rebate and it put them in the black, prob:ihiy for the
first time for a long time, when they got that refund.
Q: I'm not quite clear. What had happened there'!
A: Well see the federal government took a lot of this land from the people and took it out
of taxation. And then they'd start using it for different things. They'd run it for elulrhouses
and different things. And then they farmed some of it. sonie of the people farrued
it. So I put a bill in that the counties should be entitled to a certain percent of that inconic,.
So they finally agreed to give 25 percent of the gross. what they got in taxes. So that \\-as
retroartive way hack to the time it was t:~kvn over which brought a nice sum to some of
the rnunties.
Q: Now you say this \r-;is federal t:~keovrr?
A: That's where I learned some people think you were making rnoney. I had a lot of calls
to make to this Corps of Engineers on that thing you know. They're out of Rock Island.
Q: Oh, yes.
A: ICver? time they'd call me they'd call collect. ilnci every time I'd call then1 - 1 had to
Eet a lot of different things straightened out. Why, people thought thc telcphonc rliiin't cost
you no thin^. The girl at the end of the week would say, "liere, you owe me so nioch mime>-,
you owe me" - and if you didn't have a credit card, why, she had a hill for you e\-cl.y
week. Hut the public they thought that all of that was free. They didn't think you 11:liil
I'nr anything like that.
Q: Did you have to work through your rcpresentativc or state scnator?
4: Oh ycs. Rill Lyons and Lillian Schlagenhauf was very helpful in that one too. She voted
that. That shouldn't have been no controversial bill. You know, it lvasn't henefiting ally
indiviiiual. This ferry \.hill, see, a lot of people thought it was henefiting nre personally. And
that was a hard one to get through because a lot of people took - and 1 had the local
politicians against me on that too hecause they didn't want me to put it ovcr. The>- xi-c2rc
good friends of the governor too, see, like the county chairman, hecause they'd rather have
some Republican . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: . . . get credit for it, see, if it was going to be done. And that was a hard one to put
t.hrough. But this here one benefited a lot of people and the public as well. So it xi-as not
too controversial. The onlj- thing, nobody knew anything about it. They wasn't aware of
it.
Q: Did you haie to speak for it on the floor then?
A: 1 didn't have to say too much. I just mentioned about the hill, what it did, and that
was ahout all. I never u-as much of a speaker to elaborate on anything. I could do more
work person-to-person than I could by getting up there and talking and all that becausr
I found out most of that talk didn't amount to anything anyway.
Q: Well. Did you support it in committee? Did you go in and speak for it?
A: Oh yes. 1 always used somebodj- else, because it looked too much likr for me, so I promoted
- in fact on that ferry bill 1 think I recall - was that the ferry hill or what was
that? I used Bill Scott. I tried to put him ahead see so they wouldn't think it was entireljfor
\Vittmond. I put Scott first on the hill. Anti that way they'd look at it., well, it wasn't
my bill too much. It wasn't for me. It was Scott's bill. And he had his following too
that'rl go along.
Q: And besides, that was the other party I guess too. And that might
A: No Bill was a Democrat
Q: Oh is that right?
A: He was a Democrat
Q: Oh. I'm thinking of the wrong Bill Scott.
A: He was very close to me. Hr was from Bloomington.
A. IIe was a quiet sort of a fellow. But he had a lot of friends arountl that would - if
he'd asked them to help him. they would help him. He'd rome down an11 visit me several
times afterwards and just loaf around for a da) or two.
n(l then I had to get some prul~le to conrr up in committees to testify you know for these
ilitferent projects. I often rrmarkrd how I askeil so many of them to come up. Anrl thtxn
\vhen it comes time, everybody was bush- - and one fellow in particular, Judge 1)ew:ir. 11r
came up here, he paid his expenses, he didn't ask. he didn't want me to pay him anything.
And he spent a clay up here and his testimony was really helpful in seruring it. And then
some of his enemies down there crucified him latcr on, you know, just because he got to
he a judge and then he . . .
itaping str>pr~ed to greet rustomers, then resumed)
Q. Judgr Deaar, h-ou say they rrurifiecl him'!
tl: Yes hr gut in trouhle. One of thr attorneys in the same town got mad at him over something
and then turned him in herause he give a little advice or did a little legal work on
th~. side for some friends. FIe never rven charged thrm for it, he was that type ol'
f~,llr~\v. But still and all, thry took t.he judgeship away from him. I recall that just about
killed him \\.hen they did that.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I'll he darned
A: He was the most civic-minded fellow I knew. .As I said hefore. he look off - and lie
was from Hardin too, and it wasn't benefiting him but he kne!- it ~vould henetit the whole
rommunity. Ile was always promoting something for the area. And he took his time off
and come up and testified on the hehalf. And we got it out of committee that day.
Q: He was there at Hardin you saj-?
A: He lived at Hardin. He was a judge at Hardin
Q: Well you say you were lining people up to come up and testify in committee. Did you
have any prohlem with getting them there for the committee nicwtings, that is, were the
committee meetings scheduled so that J-ou knew when the . . .
4: Yes you knew when it was going ti1 he there. Thej- werr nice enough atlnut that. They
knew when it was going to he in committee so that I - in fact 1 gurss I was on that committee
maybe. I can't recall hut I might have hesn.
Q: That !vould hare been Roads and Bridges
A: Yes. Water, Roads and Bridges. 1 guess I was on that committee. But I couldn't vote
on it herause I had the hill in.
Q: Oh I see
A: I rould testify nn it
Q: Lrt's see. one r ~ f the things that occurred in the middlc of the 1960's \\,:is thr move to
rrduce the number of committees. Do you recall that attempt that rame out of the COOGA?
A: Yes I can recall something on that. I don't remember too much about it
Q: Llid you feel there was adequate number of committees, or
A: Oh I thought there was. If they'd just attend them. The trouhle of it is they'd put these
Iegislators on too many committees and then they had hearings at the same time. The biggest
fault with the whole thing is we don't go to work early enough in the year. They fool around
for two or three munths before they get down to rcally \wrking at it and then they begin
to do something and then they got these hearings set and then you ronHirt with earh
other. That's the bad part ahout it.
Q: I guess they used proxies to take care of some of that
A: Yes.
Q: \Vhat did you think of proxy voting? Were you for or against it?
A: Oh, it !\-as alright hut it was not as satisfactory as you hsing present. I prefer that they
be present at the hearing. Would he a lot helter I think than ta send a proxy because a
lot of people just - they don't know what's goinp to take effect in the hearing. It might
change the whole hill. I know I did that onre or twice, voted by proxy. Hell I voted for
something I didn't even know I was voting for. Changed the thing entirely, see. Amended
it or something.
Q: Can you rememher what
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: I ctin't rrcall anymore \\.hat it was.
Q: Alright.
A: That's thr rrason it's hard to commit yourself on :I bill on the house floor. A lot of times
people n.ritr you, they want you to vote for this bill or that tiill, only it's foolish to commit
yoursrlf on a bill because yuu don't know how the bills are going to be when it's in the
final stagrs. $re. It may be entirely a dinerent conception of it at that particular time.
Q: I,\-r heard that sume people would Eet themselves in truuhlr by getting committed to a
tiill and not being ahle to . . .
A: Go along with it afterwards. They'd attach amendments to it ant1 you couldn't go for
that. And they'd say, "You promised me you were going to vote for that." And no.
Q: Did you ever run into a situation like that where you - someone
A. I think I have. I think I recall a couple times I was wishing the hell I had never committed
myself on something.
Q: Let's see, you mentioned the roadways. Now was Routr 100 through when hou got ~hr
ferry passed? Ferry bill?
A: We didn't have 100 then. We didn't have no - just any highway at all. I don't
Q: What kind of roadway was it that led to
A. Oh that's another thing 1 had to do to get this federal money. I had to grt a road huilt
to this ferry then. After 1 had the ferry the road wasn't any good see.
Q: Yes,
A: Then I had to pet the road built, get a right-of-way. And then to get fivier;il money
ivr had - in their requisition they had to have where you was going to KO si~lneplarr with
it. Well there \\.as a litlle settlement there, some of this property that the government -
I told you before about the federal land where they'd taken over this land from the property
oxvners. And they'd t~uild log eahins. There was - \ve couldn't think of no other idea. Sid
Simpson - \\.as it Sid Simpson? I guess it was Sid. \\,as hr the congressman then? Or
Findley? I can't remember who was. Findley was I purss.
Q. I1 must haxr hrrn 1957, \{as it?
:I: That was Findley in there then, I guess he was
Q: IIr's heen tu-t,lre terms.
A: Ilul I ~houcht it \\.;is Simpson. Anywa~ one or the othrr. I had to work with them a
lot on that deal to cet the matrhing funds for rhr ftadcral money to revamp that road from
Brussels lo thr frrry Thry just rouldn'l build tv a river or sonlethin~. And so they had
to have a - I don't knou what they called it. Ka~neii it sonlething, some setllrmrnt or
something to build to thal particular pri~ject. That wasn't rluitr 10 thr ferry. That went
along for several years 11eforr we COUIII e\wr get the road to thr frrry finished.
Q: Xo\v this \\as on thr Calhoun side that you were having the protilen~ with.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

(1: LVhat ahout the other side? The road
:\: Oh the othrr sidr you didn't have much lo do, just - see you had a highway already
running on the other side of the river going u11 tt~ the slate park.
Q: That was the Route 100
.4: That was Route 100.
Q When d~d thr ldra for thr Great Ri\er Road come up"
.A: Oh, that was way hack in the 1!1:30's. That was another pirce of the deal. Thry just kept
adding a few miles at a time, especially from Alton lo Grafton. I always xvorked along with
that, although TIlcAdams and - what's his name, 11-alton an11 .Idalns and
Cousleys, hlc.4darns had a lot - that's the reason they called it hlc.4(lanis I-Iiyh~vay for
a long time. h pretty prominent family out of Alton. And they are 111r onrs ivho slarted
thc promotional deal. But it took years and years and ywrs to finish that thing. You just
got to whittle at it at a time, they didn't have that kind of money appropriatetl for any~hing
like that.
Q: Was that the extension on through Grafton then'?
A: It came on up to Grafton yes
Q: How far north did that go? 1)id the Great River Road concept run all thr way up to
IIardin and north?
A: 1Vt.11 I don't know how they've got it marked no\\.. We was wanting it to cnme up to
Calhoun County, see. And I don't know whrther they got it marked. I think it went ol-rr.
on the - for a while it went over on the Missouri side from Quincy on do\vn on thr other.
side Thr way it should be, it should br from Quincy on down to Hamhurg and corn right
on down to Calhrrun County across to the Illinois sidr and then go along ant1 hit thr
McAdarns Highway over there. 13ut whoever's got enough influrnrr, they 11ull it frorn lrnr
side to another. [That's] the way it looks to me.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
SESSION 7, TAPE 10, SIDE 2
Q: So it still bounces hark and forth across the river.
A: Back and forth.
Q: Well let's see now, the Great Kihrr Road was a kinti of a segmrnt of a pal.h\\a! thr)
\\ere thinking of all the wiry down the Mississippi to New Orleans . . .
A: New Orleans.
Q: . . . at one time I guess.
A: Well at the time they wanted to build a road - \vr wrrr always promotint: a road heforr
I got to the legislature. We were trying to grt a hridge then. Shows you how things
change. We thought they'd connect Jefferson Barracks to the north of Rock Island, see, and
have a superhighway like the, what do you call it, the . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: hutuhahn, over in . . .
Q: Germany
4: . . . Germany. And we thoupht we would he safer to huild inland. Well then they come
along with the airplanes and posh, they could h~~mh you and it would be five minutes ditference
if they'd honth you over San Francisco or homh you orer St. Louis.
Q: Yes
A: SII that lost. I rern~mher I made several trips up to Rock Island, up over to the
arsenal. And that was the main subject of discussion and one reason to hare it huilt. And
naturally we were interested in havinp it huilt because we \\-ere going to pet a hridge.
Q: Oh, I see. You said you visited the arsenal occasionally?
4 Oh yes. That's before I was in the legislature though, that I \\,as attire in that
thing. Right after . . .
Q: What 11o you rememher ahout the visits up there at Rock Island?
A: Oh I can't recall too much. I rernenther how huge an operation that was. :At that particular
time to me I thought it was fantastic the way the hoists they had there, and - just
how I wasn't used tr~ too much major building at that time anyway. That's when I was
younger.
Q: Did you get involved with anything with the arsenal after you pot in the legislature?
A: No. One timc, I can't rememher, some senator over there, ran't recall what \re went
orer there for - to >loline and over in that area. And went over there on some kind of
a hearing. I don't kno\r ahat it was. I think we visited then. Next session he got heat
and defeatetl and that was the end of hirn. And I can't remember his name anymore. It
seemed like he was real popular at that particular time. But that's nothing unusual. Seems
like the one who did the most was the one that alaays pet defeated. One of them told me
one time, "If yo11 want to stay here long enough, just don't do nothinp."
Q: I see
A: And it was about the truth because every time you do something, you're got 511 percent
of the people who don't want what you want. And so >-ou always derclop that many
enemies
Q: What ahout other road projects? h'ow in the 1950's the heginning of the superhighways
rvas coming along. Xow Quincy I think wanted to get involved with a superhighway across
Illinois.
.A: Yes. The!- arc still laughinp over there. They (lid gct some intproientent orer in the
northern 1':lrt nf Quincy, northern and eastern part. They got some irnprorerncnts
there. Hut they aiivays lagge~i back 11ver in this distrtirt. Seemed like they didn't haw
too much over here.
: Lo you recall an:- m~\-rs at all at that time to get
:I: I can't too much. They always had their representative there who was .jupk~osed to hc
looking out for Quincy's interest. You had the senator from Quincy years ago ~rhen I \\as
there. And aluays hati a representative from orer there. So I never nanted to gel to -
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

oh. I always went along with them in anything they \vi~r interested in.
into too many major projects over there.
Rut I ncmvcr got
The unly thing 1 did for Quincy was the Soldiers' and Sailors' Home. That's when 1 h:~ri
to vote for a tax too. And I'd vote fur a liquor tax and 1 got all the tavern men mad at
me. The Soldiers' and Sailors' Home. Previously I'd always had the backing of all the tavern
owners berause being a tavern owner n~yself they thought l'd take care of thrm. But being
I was on this romn~ittee then at that time and they just inrreased the tax on liquor :ind
cigarettes and Quinry naturally was in opposition. Thpy were put in competition rather
from West Quincy people o\-er there who would sell cigarettes and liquor ant1 they were verL
much opposed to that tax. But 1 couldn't vote - there's a good example - I couldn't \.r~te
for a tax just to put it on food and then leave it off on liquor. It would look bad and me
being in the tavern businrss too and - so I had to vote for it and I madc all my friends
mad at me. They didn't untlerstanti the process, see. They thought I cc>uld just vote against
the lirduor and cigarette tax. And then the next year they put out a bulletin that I was
the only representative who voted for that tax increase. The rwt I I thrm ~ never had a
chance to because they weren't on the committee.
Q: Oh. This was committee action and not floor action.
A: Yes.
Q: Along about that time was when the) started the nl~ve to broaden the sales tax to include
services and that sort of thing Do )ou recall that?
A: Yes. We had a hotel tax one time, and I also got blamed on t.hat
Q: Oh. (chuckles)
A: They didn't want it, the hotel group didn't want it. 1 remember a coople of lobbyists
came over and they got ahold of I'owell. That's where 1 think Powell got a little gift l'rom
the boys at that particular time. Like one fellow said. "Iie'd never divide it ulr.'' IIe . . .
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: So I was chairman of the committee and he invited nle to suhsidize the suhcommittee
which I did. And then he appointed me - and H.B. Ihnrn I remember; he was in the district
too, and didn't make any difference - to kill the bill. And I think that's the hill, I
think it was, yes. So we put it in subcommittee to kill it. Then the fellow who had the
bill in, he complained that we didn't give him. . . . I think that's the one that he was talking
about, that he was sr~pposvd to appear and he didn't appear. And Powell called me and
told me, "Send it to subcommittee and we'll kill the damned thing." Then this guy complained
and they put me on the spot hecause he said he had other hearings to be there. But
he didn't notify me about it anyway. And then me being in the hotel business, they thought
that I was interested in killing it. To me it didn't amount to that much :ln)-w:iy. But see,
that's the way people get the wrong impression a lot of times.
Q. Well how would you kill it in the subcommittee? Were all the people that t~clunged to
the suhcommittee . . .
A: Against it? Yes you just appoint members who you knew woul~l votv against it
Q: Well, jeez. (chuckles) Did that happen vrry often, that
h. (chuckles) It did frequently. If you were a sharp enough operator you could promote
that.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Well. Do you recall any particular hills that you wanted to . . .
A: No, I never - I went along with a couple that I think they put me 011. Powell would
use his people who he - he was a unique promoter to know. Ile had political srnsr. 11r
exactly knew about how you felt and he would pick you for that particular purposr. .And
he could use you without you knowing you was heing used, really.
Q: \Veil. (chuckles) How did you - was that how 3-ou got to he vice-chairman of the
Rere~u~e Committee then? Apparently he appointed you then . . .
A: Oh yes he appointed me sure. He was the one who made the appointment. But like Mistrr
Ihnen. He knew Mister Ihnen. Ihnen wasn't obligated to Powell. Rut hr knew Ihnen
\va$n't for that tar see so he put him on there. Speaking of Ihnen, I always remember the
time he - naturally people come to conclusions too. The paper came out with the headlines
on this jai alai deal. You know there was supposed to have been some money on that
deal. I didn't know anything about it. I think I voted for it. I never girt. a crap of what
he thought of . . .
One day I got a long-distance call. Ihnen wanted to know if I was going to he home. I
said yes. He come down and boy, he was all frustrated and he was worried. The newspaper
come out kind of intimating that he and I voted fur it ant1 - just a lot of monej- on it. .4nd
he said, "You get any money on that?" And I knew he didn't get any. "No I didn't yet
any money on it." He says, "You voted for it." He was all worried about it, I wasn't
because I had voted for a11 of them anyway. see. And I was always - I didn't care. I
didn't worry about it. He was always worrird ahout it. "I wouldn't let it worry you
any." See, it looked bad on his part because he aasn't quite as liberal as I was in his voting.
Q: Oh. (chuckles)
A: When he voted for that it looked a littlr off base. But I know he didn't get nothing out
of the deal either. But later on they got ahold of this lohhyist I think \\.ho had this
money. And he had spent it himself. And they had a tape made of him an11 he trird to
say he give it to some people. And it ended up that one of them was me he tried to sa?
he give it to. Some fellow said, "Well I know he didn't take any." I forget how was it, he
said something about - I don't xi-ant to repeat this on this tape here . . .
A: But Bud asked nre, he don't need that money. I know he didn't yet any of it. And finally
they found out I didn't get any of it, see. But . . .
(2: Wrll let's see, I hat jai alai hill was defeated. That was to ;lllow jai alai in Chicago wasn't
it?
.A: Yrs. But Ihnen was alwavs worrying aboul that. Neaspaper came out with headlines
thal lhrrr was a payoff on it. And thrn he and I in the district, ac both voted for it. IIe
\\-:is surr \vorrird about it.
Q: \t-ell t11:it - son~~li~rir ~~riur to that I understand hat therr were a consi(1erahle numl)er.
of \~hal ihey c:illrrl frlrhrr bills. or conle-along bills, \\-here they woulii put in a hill in orde1.
to xrl an induslry or sonrrlhing to pay otl' to have them xithdraxv.
4: T I I 1111 I think, some of thix boys was making a living off of lhat I guess. The>alwa>
s s:ii~l Bill Lyons user1 to - well I think hr did, Bill used to do that quite a hit.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: He'd put in a hill like that, knowing he wasn't going to get no place but they \x-er? worried
it might so they would make a deal with him of some kind. He'd get suniething. lie'd
either get a job out of it for somebody or he'd get something out of it sonieh~)w. He was
good at promoting jobs for his district, whether it was for the stat? or for somt,
industry. Like - I can't remember that, another one - I got tied up in that too. But
I can't renieniber too much about it. It was way back when they had this - what do th~y
call this milk deal that was some - Pet Milk . . .
Q: Milnot?
A: hlilnot, that was it.
Q: From Litchfield
A: Milnot from Litchfield, that was it. See Bill was - that was his district
Q: Oh.
A: I can't recall too much about it but I know I was in on that deal. It was quite a
rigamorole on that thing.
Q: It went for years and years.
A: Years, yes. Then on the margarine deal, that was another une too.
Q: Oleo margarine
A: Oleo margarine deal. (laughter) I sh~)uld have mad? notes on some of those things so
I could have remembered them because . . .
Q: Well I understand the chiropractor bill was one of those also
A: That was another one. See, that was pretty tou~h because your medical associati~~n was
pretty - but I always went for the chiropractors.
Q: Oh you did.
A: Yes. And there's another example see. The Medical Association w-as a po\~erful lobb--
ist, but I always voted for the chiropractors. In fact I'll tell you what they did. And I
wasn't aware of it. I just liked them because they did me some good, the chiropractors
did. This one up near Chicago, I forget the name of it, they got quite an institution up
there, some school.
Q: I don't know - there was one in Dubuque, Iowa, I think it was
A: No this was in Illinois, out of Chicago. They got a bottle now made in that particular
town. I got one of them, one of those. . . . It's a school up there. It's quite a layout
they'v? got. And they - Lornbardo or 1,umbardo or Lumbard or something . . .
Q: Lombard? I think . . .
11: Something like that
Q: . . . there is a Lombard
A: St. Lumbardi or something like that They had me to come up there for a ueek. And
they x-rayed me and I found out then that there's more than just - this was later after
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

I'd voted for the bill. That would come up an11 then they would give me all the tests there
was. ntl didn't charge me a penny for it. It was nice of them to do that. 1 learned more
about chiropractic practices than I ever knew But I used to have a lot of hack trouble,
and doing a lot of driving and things, and neck. At times coming up through Altun or St.
Charles, when I used to go to St. Charles I used 10 go into the chiropraclor and give then1
- they only charged three dollars then. And I could feel like a different person. So I didn't
object to any legislation that they'd want, if they wanted to try to get rerognized. But I
see they've got this Senator Davidson, is it Davismeyer or what is it, Davidson'?
Q: Davidson
A: Daridson
Q: . . . from Springfield
A: Davi(1son. He is a chiropractor.
Q: Yes
A: And he was lobbying for them at tha~ particular time when I was there. Then I see he
got in politics now, anti so he's taking care of this.
Q: Yes. 1Ie's a senator now.
Let's see, I was thinking there was one other - oh, strip-mining hills along that time seem
to have been of that nature and . . .
A: Yes that uras another deal around Gillespie. Naturally I ~licin't have anything to do -
in my area we never had any mines over there. But that was another one of Hill 1,yons'
projects, over in that section. Thejfre s~ipposed to be ruining the country and they were
trying to - I can't recall too much about it, the pros and cons about it anymore, because
- I probably went along with Lyons on it, whatever he wanted on the thing. Whatever
he wanted to vote for them, I can't recall.
Q: Jim Holloway from down sr~uth here proposed a commission. And the commission was
formed to study that situation and then a control bill came as a result of that. That was
in l9fi5 I think. or 1963.
A: It was llollr>way's hill. I think I recall something un thnt. It was IIollorva>-'s bill. I
remember he asked mr something about a hill. That prol)ahl>- was the hill that he had
mentioned. n d I went along with him on his bills.
Q: Now Jim Hollo\ray had a hill anti Gale Williams. who was from the same district down
there at that time, had put in another bill because he didn't think Holloway's was strict
cnough. And there was considerable to-do over that. Do you recall anything at~out thc
fight over that?
I\: I can't recall too much hut I rememher there was a discussion ahout those two t~ills. I
can't recall too much about hen^. They were out in my area but I rememl~er Hollou-ay as
bcing u-orrieti ahout getting his hi11 through at that time. I can't recall whether he (lid or
not anymore. I think he [lid get it past the house. I don't remember \\hat happ~ne~l to it.
Q !Tell, Jim Hollo\\a!'s bill finally passed and went into eflecl
Let's see. \ve were talking about people down there - no\v. Bill Grindle had a comn~ission
in ihe rni(l(lle of the 1960's on highways. We \yere talking ahout transporlation a lit~lr whilp
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

ago. Do you recall his highwa>- commissions hill? Some of the things that came out of
it. For example there was a move to have state roads made countj- roads.
A: County roads.
Q: Revert to the counties and that sort of thing. A number of things came out of the
commission.
A: I can't recall too much ahout it. 1 did have some experiencp on having some of the ol(l
roads revert hack to the owners several different times. I can remember T had certain
instances where I had to do that. But that was no deal hecause there xvas usuallj no opposition
to that. People would just go along with you on it. You had to have prrn~ission from
the. . . . But Grindle's bill itself - Grindle's operating. I can't recall too n~uch about that.
Q: Did you get to knou William Grindle very well?
A: I knew him. I can't recall too much ahout Bill.
Q: He was in the senate of course so . . .
A: Yes. We had a proup together and I think he went along with me on my projects. He
and Lyons was real close together. Bill Lyons and Grindlc, \\-hen they pot in the senate,
they had a group over there who had a nucleus and . . .
Q: fell there was a group from southern Illinois, I guess, that kind of worked together for
that sort of t.hing. What about conservation-tl-pe activity? You were on the Waterways
. . .
A: Yes
A: . . and Conservation, Fish and Game Committee most the time. What types of th~ngs
came up? Were there hunting laws and that sort of thing that came up?
A: Yes, that was a touchy deal too because coming from a duck-hunting - you could never
satisfy a11 the duck hunters hecause they'd blame everybody for not having ducks. And the
department usually has a different idea than a lot of the hunters have. And I had a lot
of dealings with the Conservation Ikpartment directly. An11 u-hile I was on this committee
we - Palmer, I think it was Palmer then. Him or the next one after him. h fellow from
Havana was the assistant. I can't remember his name now. Anyway we went to Washinyton
to try to reclaim this canal.
Q: Oh, the Illinois-Michigan Canal?
A: The Illinois-Mississippi Canal. And we made quite a study of it and I think we did get
two million ~iollars to start. f e needed about seven, eight million dollars and we got two
million dollars to give us a start. I often wondered - I was often int.erestt.(l in checking
to see whatever resulted, what happencd to that, whether they ever complpted that or they
dropped it. Rut their idea then was to take over a lot of this land that had been mined I
guess, like we had a lot of different areas anti they had ponds there and they'd try to make
them shooting areas. They even wanted to get into the lodging and recreation businesses.
Q: Oh?
A: Naturally I was always interested in recreation because I was quite a pronloter of rerre;ition
myself. Rut I couldn't see the slate getting in that too murh because my rxperience
has been when you get too far away from things like that, they're not very sorressful,
and . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Let's see, the Zion [Illinois Beach] State I'ark, a lodge rip there was built by the state
I believe about that tinie.
21: I mas trying to think of some of the things. There was something very controversial.
deals we had because. . . . I know up in Washington we had to testify. And I remc.mt)er
I hrought up something - I can't recall what it was anymore - but they got a kirk out
of it.
Q: Who did you see in Washington?
A: Oh we seen Douglas and Llirkszn hoth. That's when Eisenho\ver was in. Kixon was
vice-president. Johnson was head of the - him and Dirksen was head of the Senate. They
ran the Senate that time.
Q: Did you get to know Johnson very well at that time?
A: Yes I got to know Lyndon pretty well. But 1 was always amused at the way he operated
the Senate. Ile'd stand on his heels and toes. He'd just fluctuate from one to
another. And he was tall anyway. And him and Dirksen would just speak over the aisle
there. They just stood up there, just opposite of each other. And if they'd deride that they
wanted - they'd yield to them five minutes or two minutes or three minutes. They took
over, they ran the show themselves.
Q: I'll be darned
A: And everybody else, the other - like congressmen, they stood now boy. Johnson
because he always had these big Cadillacs sitting out there in front. And . . .
Q: So he drove Cadillacs like you did around?
A: Yes hr was quite an operator around town. He hati it parked right out in front. And
a lot of the boys, they thought that was something, you knoxv. But he knew how to get
along with the Senate. But after he got to be president, I was disappointed in him. He
just wasn't cut out for that job I don't think.
Q: He had a rough go at it. He had the war going at that time and all.
11: Yes. He was hoss of the Senate and he was good at ronvincing people of a small area
to his side. But when he got up in the White EIouse he was overshadowed by the Kennedp
too. And that made it bad then on him.
Q: Did you meet him personally . . .
.4: Oh yes
Q: . . . then and get to know him'.'
A: Oh yes. And Dirksen too
Q: Do you remember any particular visits with him there?
A: With Dirksen or Douglas, all of them'!
Q: Well
t1: Oh I always remember Douglas, he had a kind of a - like see, he always wanted to
emphasize he was the senior senator.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: It seemed like Dirksen had more of an in. He was more maneuverer than the rest of
them was. He put on a better show. He'd slap you on the hack and, "You just wait here
five minutes," he says, "and I've just got to go up and see the president, I'll be right back,
and . . ."
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: And 1)ouglas I guess didn't have the connections with the president Dirksen had. And
he was always bringing up that - wanted to let us know he was the senior senator. He
was great on that dunes - he had something to do with the dunes up there.
Q: Oh the sand dunes?
A: The sand dunes up in Chicago. He was constantly harping on that deal. IIe mas a very
sincere person, Douglas was. I remember when I campaigned with him he mould alx3-ays
harp on saving the small farms. He and I was agreed all the time, until the last me weren't
never too friendly hecause, even though we campaigned a lot together, I could never agree
with his philosophy. He wanted to keep things - "forty-acre farms," he said. And I hallpened
to be a farmer then too. And I owned land. And I told him several times, "Senator,"
I said, "I got some of those farms. And I've got a forty-acre farm here. And," I said,
"years ago this man made a living off of it. He raised a family off of it. I can't even make
enough to pay the taxes on it when I operate it. Things are just getting bigger. You ought
to operate on a bigger scale or you just doesn't exist anymore." But he couldn't see
that. His idea was to keep them small, keep the farms small, keep the people on t.he
farm. But that wasn't the trend. It mas just the reverse. But he was sincere in his
thinking. He worked hard at it.
Q: What about your relationship with Dirksen? Did you meet with him at all'.'
A: It was a friendly relationship yes. And he was a very interesting fellow. Great to listen
to. (chuckles) He could really taIk, he put on a nice talk wherever he was at. He could
really do a show. He was the type of a senator that when you'd grow up that you would
think they were - way they would be, you know.
Q: He looked like it then
A: That's right, the way he looked with his hair.
Q You say you campaigned with Douglas. Did he come through the area here?
A: Oh yes he'd come through the area a lot of times. He'd frequently visit the area
too. During the time when he was in ofice he would rome hack and make a talk around
in different towns around the area.
Q: Did he get down to the Brussels . . .
A: Oh yes I've got a picture hanging on the wall of him, several pictures in fact. In fact,
I've got a picture of he and I, with his tousled hair blowing in the air, crossing the ferry,
the free ferry, down there. I took him over to Principia College the first time he'd ever Ilecn
over to the college. I had an in over at the college because all the college people come over
to the hotel, and they were very nice to us. They took us over and showed - first time
the senator had ever been over to the college. But that's area that he got beat.
Q: Well! (chuckle) So he shouldn't have gone to school I guess
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

:\: Ile nrust not have run ;my more. I forget \rho heat him that year.
Q: It \vould have been Percy?
A: Yes, Perry. I guess it was Percy
Q: Did you get lo know Percy at all?
A: Not Ion \vcll. Met him once and I never did have any association with Percy.
Q: Johnson, did you meet him in Illinuis?
A: Oh yes I got to meet Johnson.
Q: Did you meet him here in Illinois at any time?
A. No, not in Illinois. I met him out in Washington
Q: How about Dirksen? Did he ever pet down to the U'ittmond IIotelY
A: Oh. \vay in his early days when Ire \\.as vampaigning when he was a schoolteacher and
nobody thc~ught he had ;I chance to win.
A: 1 remenrber him conling down there and nohody thought he had - bu~
he just went from
all the little towns in that campaign. He w~)ulri visit erery\r.hrrr. And he surprised
them. Was it Scott Luras hc ran against?
(2: YPS I believe it was
A: Yes Scott didn't think hc could i~r beaten. I renrcmher Scott. I knew Scott real wt,ll
see. Scott considered himself the number two man in the counlry you know He was the
right-hanti-side man of Roosevelt I believe it was at that garticular time. And I remember
Scott coming up - Scott w:rs ver5- good friends of this fellow Charley Ilagen I was telling
you al~out.
Q: They knew each other from up Chicago way then?
A: Sonreway, 5-es. And I rememher Scott Loras in that campaign, telling ahout him being
the right-h:rnd man of the president. But this Douglas goes out there and that was an overstep
at that particular time. An upset.
But that ac1u;~lly gors to show how Scott probably spent most of his time in Washington
anti go1 too - I don't remember a lot of the - I wasn't too active in politics at that
time. Remember a lot of people, and some of' the little poIiticians who said, "Well, he don't
know us anynrore." R'rite him and he wouldn't answer his mail I gut.ss clr too busy or
somelhing. Which he did hare a lot to do at that particular time I think.
Q Y~s he nent into leadership there
.4 Ycs and he couldn't be bothered b) all this petty stuff.
Q: LVhich shows how important that petty stuff is I guess
A: That's ~.ight
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Yes sir. Now hoiv often did you make the trips to ~Vasliingtun? Llid you h;rve occasion
to go very often'.'
11: Oh a couple times. 1 remember one timr 1 - supposrd to go and BI)~ Craig was suppusr~l
to gu and then a delegation. We were all going to go to Chicago to catch a train on a Sunday
and supposed to be there Monday. And Boh Craig was driving and I told him I didn't know
if I could make it or not. I was right in our husy season at that particuIar time. Sunday
night some things worked real nicrly and some of the help said, "Well nhj don't you gct
awn?? Why don't you leave?"
SESSION 7. T.APE 11. SIDE 1
A: So I went upstairs and threw a shirt in my suitcasr and called thr airport. It was ahout
nine o'clock. I think it was eight-thirty, nine o'rlock. And so I caught a plane out of St.
Louis and I got in Washington about one or t\'o u'rl~rck. Next morning I wrnt to the he:~ring
that was scheduled. I was the only one there. The train was Iate. Craig got arrested for
speeding the hell over driving through. And here I had to wait on them until aftprnoon
hefore we could have a meeting. And I was the unr who wasn't supposed to bc there.
Q: Geez. (chuckles) Well what was the subject of the meeting'!
A: That's when we - on that canal.
Q: Oh I ser.
A: For one time or . .
Q Now let's see, that canaI - Paul Kandolpli uas connectrd with that
A: Randolph'? When was that . . .
Q: Did he go to Washington that time?
A: I guess he did. I don't remember. IIe wasn't too artiv~ though. I can't remrnther the
names of these fellows anymore. But we had a suite of ruunls up at thr Shorrhani
Ilotel. And for a whole week we stayed there.
Q: Well! And they did hold the hearing finally.
A: Oh, oh j-es. We had hearings on it. And we got two nlilliun dolIars appropriated for
it.
Q: LVeil at one time there was consideration of using that right-of-way for an expressway
out of Chicago. Do you recall that nloael
A: Well they talked about that too. We made several trips up there and oisitcrl the canal. I
didn't even know where it was at pre\riously. They had all these locks huilt anti all
dilapidated. And u-hat they were trying to do \\-as make recreation areas for these
people. And naturally u-e had a lot of opposition from dwvn southern Illinois hecause they
don't know how Chicago peopIe are hemmed in. They don't realize that you should have
to build public places for people to get out. They didn't have no place to go. They'rr not
like we are down south here, we can . . .
Q: Go out in the woods.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Wide open sparrs, that's right. .And to those folks there, that is really something you
knotv. I knew thry \\-ere very much interestetl in the project. But somebody who doesn't
visit thost, arras and hasn't heen living into a city don't realize how - you've got children
and don't have a place to go take them out. They need these parks and recreation
areas. And I nrvrr was opposed to them. A lot of people were, they vrre very much
opposed to sp~ndinp liuhlic money for it.
Q: Hou about drvelnpmmt of the state parks throughout the state, like Perr Marqurtte?
:I: 1 was wry much interested in doing that
Q: Wrre there any things at Pere Marquette specifically that you h~lprtl them get or were
interested in?
:I: Oh 1 can't remember anything specifically. Only acquiring some land. 1 made several
trips to different people trying to sell them on the idea. Some of thrm - just
impossible. They didn't want to give up their land, but the state has hew iloinp that
slowly. And acquiring as they died and maybe the younger genrration was mart, intt~rt~stt~d
in selling and getting the money. They were paying the premium for it a11 tht. timt., the
state did. That's one thing about the state, not like the federal governmrnt. The federal
government wants to take it for nothing a lot of times. But the state, they did pay mure
than the market value for it.
Q: LVell that recreational facility development, did you think of any of that for in ('alhoun
('ounty itself'! Were there areas in there that . . .
.A: Well the proplr thrre don't want anything developed in there too much. They a11 like
to keep it as is. They don't like to make it public. There's somrthing particular hut I can't
remember what it was anymore. Mayhe I was avoiding it, I can't recall. It will come to
rile sometime later.
To develop those things you've got to have somebody who had a personal intt,rest in
it. There was one man working for the state. And he had ;I lot of ground in about the
niiddle section of Calhoun County. He said in his studies there was nothing like it. And
it was surrounded pretty much by a road. And he was anxious to get that developed and
set aside as far as the state. But he developed some kind of a disease and he got handicapped
and then he wasn't too active and it just dwindled down. .4nd thr next one who
would take it over (loesn't see anything in that. So it just died down completely. You've
always got to have somebody personall>- interested in a project to really get anything done.
They become lokr\~~arm and then it don't mean nothing an>-more.
Q: There were a nomlrt~r di~wn in southern Illinois like, oh, the old church at Thehes.
A: Yes. Yes and then ahat's that, the Cross7
Q: The Hald Knoh Crr~ssl
A: Bald Knoh yes.
Q. Did you support that?
A: I supported that, yes. I wrnt along with it.
Q: Thej- never did pet much uf' a rllad I guess np to that
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

: Did >-nu have anything of that type in this area that - like over in .%Iton or any of the
area around that - historical landmarks or an>-thing . . .
A: No. And then that Rend Lake deal down thvrr, they - what !\,as that tieal? 1 can't
recall.
Q: Now Clyde Lee was pretty active in that and Paul Zeigler
A: Yes. Paul uas always down there. I don't kno\r-. They had a chance to get in on
it. With a little foresight, you could have picked up some lots down in that area and really
get another bargain. But 1 don't know if anybody did or ilot. 1 know several of them mentioned
it would be a good buy to buy some of that. But 1 never did. 1 just wonder if there
was any of them did.
Q: 1 don't know. I haven't heard anything of that nature. Yes thew was Rend Lake there
and over by hlurphysborc~ there was Kinkaid Lake I guess that was being dev~loprd about
that same time. And all thuse people seemed to work together.
A: Yes. That's one thing about the hoys down in southern Illinois. McCormick. Polvcll,
Choate, Grindle, when it comes to southern lllinois, they all stuck together.
Q: You didn't particularly have that kind of coalition over here in - what'! Somchody called
this part of the state Forgotonia, at some time. I forget who it was.
A: Yes. Was that me did that? Somebodq-, I don't know. I had something going one time.
Q. Someone was going to secede from the state of Illinois. (chuckles)
A: State of Illinois. Yes. Well that's the only reason I ever got in politics was hec:~usc \vr
never did yet anything over in this area. We never got anything. Our legislators lvcrcn't
wry active to begin with. We had a fello\v the name of Donohoo and he never (lid too
much. And Bill Thornton from Nebo over there in Pike County. (paus't Bill (;ihbs was
real active. But Bill got into a little trouhle on padding the payroll that time. :Ind hc \vas
just getting to where he was haring some clout. And th~n he got into trouble on that.
Q: Well. Payroll in where? In what department there?
A: I don't know what department it was. He halt four or five of them with a fictitious pa>--
roll and he was getting the checks.
Q: I'll be darned. (churhles)
Q: Rut none of them were too active in pushing it?
A: They didn't - seemed like they didn't push too much. They always . . . and 1,illian
Schlagenhauf was senator. She was a real lovely person but she never was real artive in
doing anything. If she did anything she'd probably want it for Quinry. You knr~a., lived
in Quincy. People didn't travel around too much those days.
Q: So they knew Quincy and Jacksonville but not the rest
:I: That's right.
Didn't know where Calhnun ('~~unty uas
SESSION 8, TAPE 12, SIDE 1
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: I'd like to ask first today abwt some judicial reform measures that occurred in the 1950's
leading up to 1962. 1 guess you had a justice of the peace there in Brussels didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your opinion abaut whether you should do away with justices of the peace or
not?
A: At that time I thought it was a good idea.
Q: Oh?
A: But later on I somewhat regretted it.
Q Why is that?
A: Oh they kind of lost the touch - these judges become too aloof and you don't get dawn
to the level like you. . . . And it\ too much trouble for the layman to get a fait play in
things. You have to hire an attorney where before you go before a justice of the peace at
least you could get a settlement without a big expense.
Q: Yes. What did they do? Consolidate at Hardin?
A: Yes, Hardifi. Everything is at the county seat now.
Q: So at that time you went along with the
A: I went aIong with the idea at first. I never give it too much thought thinking
that . . . oh, that your little areas would be too much favoritism among friends in it. But
later on I found out that that exists wherever you go. So it makes that much difference.
Q: Was there a justice of the peace there that . , .
A: Oh yes. We had a justice of the peace.
Q: What did he think of the idea?
A: Well naturally they all opposed it.
Q: Yes. (pause) They had nothing other than the justice of the peace outside of Hardin
in Calhoun County I guess, did they?
A: That's all they ever had in it since they came up with the circuit judges and then each
county had a judge. Then finally we got. a judge, local judge. But he travels elsewhere so
he really doesn't preside over his own county either. Probably a good thing too in a
way. He's got to be excused from a lot of cases anyway because he"$ familiar with them
or a familiar acquaintance of people who come before him 30 E imagine they trade places
that way. One county comes over to this county and this County goes to the other county.
Q: Did you get much involved at that time over the question as to whether you should elect
or appoint the judges?
A: Yes I did. I can't recall too much about it hut at that time I %-as real active in that
because I had some friends who - Judge Reardon over at Quincy who was really promoting
that at that particular time. He is a very close associate of mine. And he sold me on the
idea. And I really went and worked for it.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Now which way was this? To elect the judges or
A: Yes.
Q: So what do you mean you went and and worked on it? \Vhat types of things did you
do?
A: Oh, we had meetings around the area to acquaint the peoplr with \\-hat would happen
at that time and try to sell them on the idea that that was the best 5va)- to go. And I
h;ld taken his advirr at that particular time. I rememher very distinctly on that. He 1\33
:I high-caliber gentleman and 1 was taking his - but now I sometimes n-under whether 1
did the right thing or not.
Q: So if you were back you might do it differrntly, huh?
A: Yes. A lot of these consolidations are not working out to the benefit uf ~hr put~lir [ tlon't
think. I think there's a lot of the things wr could have continued wurking on a local lr\rl
and been just as well off.
Q: Yes. I've heard that a lot of people don't want to monkey nith the courts anymore because
it's too much trouble to . . .
A: That's right. I've had some rxperient: ;inrl I
used to criticize, peoplr who didn't proceed on anything. But aftrr going through nhat I did
nua. you're so glad to f0rgc.t about it and rven take your loss su j-ou don't - tht,y alnlos~
treat you like a criminal anymore if you want to proceed and got something.
Q: Oh, is that right? (chuckles)
A: Yes. Su 1 could see thr little man who isn't ai:qu:linted n-i~h our la\\-s and l~rocr(lure.
how you get disgusted and he'd just say, "\Yrll, the further you slay away fronr it, ilir llctter
hr is off." So . . .
Q: There was considerable pressure during the 1950's to make the changr in the court
system. Edward Saltiel was working for hoth the bars, Chicago Bar and the Illinois Bar
Association. Did you get to know Ed SaltieI very we117
4: 1 met him. As I said brfore, 1 wasn't impressed by anybodq- in particu1;ir. only Judge
Keardon. He's the one who sold me and I went along with his idea. Of rourse I alsays
had a lot of confidence in him and thought the information he was giving me \\-;is corrrcl
and proper. Persuasive felIon. I knew him. When I was arhi~rator of the Industrinl
Conlmission I nlet him. He was an attorney over there then. I met him ovrr in Quincy
then yrnrs before I ever got in the legislature. He was considered to he on? of rhr key men
in the community and the district.
Q: Did he help you in your campaigns?
.4: Oh yes. That's brfore it was against the law for - I forget if he was n jurigl'. \Yell.
he was a judge afterward. But at the time I can't remembrr if he - but an>rvay when
he was a judge naturally he couldn't do anything dirertly. Hut indirectly t~r could al\\-nys
put in a good word for you.
Q: What ahout the Hodge scandal husinrss? That orrilrred
A: The Hodge?
Q . . . in 1956 you knu~
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: Yes 1 can rt,call something of that. I r:rn r~,n~cmber there uas some approlrri:~tic~n t1tc.y
voled on. Saturally most of them they'd just vote for and forget about it atid they didn't
knon. ~vhat he - rrally examined too much anyway. Just took f~,r grantrd the con~rnitlee
r~,t.omrnendation and you voted for it.
llut Paul Simon, he was the only onc in the house I think, it \vas 159 menthers we had at
that particular time - and hr was the only one that voted arainst it. No1 that he knew
anything about it, but just because he wanted tu be against everything. Paul just voted
against ever>-thing. And hat made a hero out of hini when hc found out that l-l~xlg~. n-;rs
really in trouhle nn some financial affairs 1 guess.
Talking ahout him, an11 some friends of his from Granite City, just Sun~iay thq nrre
up. They nas talking about Orrillu, that he could have ha11 anything he asked for. lie u;is
the most popular man in the state ;it that time, could have buen the nexl governor. Or
any other ofire you \ranted to adhere to. But he must have been irniilicatc,d with some other
group of persons. I don't know how he could hare spent that kirid of monel- himself. Rut
I guess he's one of these country boys u-ho \rent to the hig city arld got involved \\-ith somr
last company. And they were too smart fur him. Hr got pretty liberal with the
money. But even with hou liberal he could have been, he had to hare somebndy else gelling
;I ILI~ of that funds or he couldn't have got away with that much money. That's my feeling
ahrlut it.
Q: \\'hen ~iid 1-ou lirst hear ahout it'.'
A: Oh, 1 hrard about it. Kerer give it a thought. 1 thought it uas just politics for a long
time until it actually happened. ilaughs~ .As 1 said he was real popular with 2111 of us, tlir
rlernocrats as far as thc Republicans. Why, 1 uscd tn go in his ofire rrequently an11 \r\.;inted
something done and I ~.ct.all - \\-ell 1 rnentiontlri this the other day - 1 recallc~i one time
1 \\-anted a drerize tloat tlrought up there at Kanipsville. One of my constituents n~~ciit>il
some help to get that fer1.3- ;m11 some boat landing rhanged thcrc at the linrnps~ille ferry.
They had tried all or thr olher resourres. And I happened to think ahout Orville. So I
\valked doa-n to his ofice and 1 told him ahout it. He gets on lhe phone. He sa-s. "Just
3 minutc, let me get on tht, ph~~nr." He says - ralled up, and, "Wherr they got that
goddamne11 harge at?" And they said, "Llou-n the ri\rer" - 1 don't knuu what rhe
distance. He says to me, "llave that up there Monday morninp" And hlon~lay ntorning
that thing was there. And see, he got lhe work done. All the other \vatrr\vays \\-hi) 11:id
charge, of it. you couldn't get anything done there at all. Hugut it done.
.Anti one day - as an example of hntv he thought - Ser~ator Lyons and 1 \\-as gourl
friends. iVr \\.alkerl into his ofice one day. Anti in those days \re had ;rllo\v;irit.~~ ror
travel. And evrryhu(i- \\-as trying to grt as much as they could. And some of thrm \\-oul~l
go by railroad, see, and try to figure the longest nay possible. iVcll, l.yons ~ O I Iup, I ~ "iVh~
don't you figure )-ours to St. 1,ouisY" lie sho\vs this place you coul(l gi,t on a train. And
[hen train fare to Springfirld and then figure it hat \\-as. I wen1 ill to Horlgc an11 ~ rtalkc~i
c
it uver, Lyons and I did, an11 Orville listened. lIe says. "FeIlo\\-s, l don't believe I'd du that
iT I \\-ere you. You knou so~nehody might he looking into th:~t and you might get in a li~lle
tro~te." llere he's advising us on a few dollars and h~re hr \voun~l ul) \\-ith :I rnilliorl
short. i laughter)
Q: .A different Icvcl of embezzlement thtal-c
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Were you familiar with the activities of Stratton then to adjust the fiscal Jystenl to preclude
that happening again'!
A: Ilow is that?
Q: Were you familiar with the chalrges that were made
A: Oh, trying to do away with the auditor, you mean?
Q: Yes that sort of thing.
A: Yes. &'ell, after that scandal came up, why, naturally they seen really what's the use
of it? So . . .
Q: What was your feeling at the time? L)id you think that they might well do anay with
it or . . .
A: Well after understanding how it operated 1 really didn't see - 1 thought the governor
should have more control of it there really. That's my opinion on it. I recall various
things. They tried to hold Stratton rvsr~onsihle for it at that particular time. lilarne hini
for it when he didn't have any jurisdiction over it because . . .
Q: One of the things they decided to do \vas separate the pre-audit from the post-audit
instead of having that in the same outtit . . .
A: That's right, yes
Q: . . . split them up. Walter Reum became a conrnritlee chairman. I believe of the Executive
Committee, in order to handle that sort of thing
A: Yes, I remember that
Q: Do you remember
4: 1 remember him, yes
Q: \That did you think of Walter Reum?
4: \Veil he's really a student. Very sincere and very eonscit!ntious
Q: Ilo you remember working very closely with him on anything'!
A: Oh, a few things I did. He was as I said a student and he worked al his job. Was
no foolishness about him. He didn't plaj- around any and he . . .
Q: IIou about the Department of Financial Institutions that was s ~ up'. t Did you get
involved in deciding what they were going to handle or which parts of it . . .
A: Oh, I didn't have too much to do with that. Naturally I went along with thr Kroup on
that particular time. Let's see, I can't recall too much about that offhand 1.011 IIIP~II ivhen
they took away from the hanks and - to put up a savings and loans?
Q: Right. And they set up a 1)epartment of Finanrial
A: Yes, Departmrnt of Financial Instilulions. Yes, I was active in that. .1,1r Knight was
a good friend of mine. And it seenred like somehow or another he warrlrrl ih;il. I didn't
know why.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Oh. He wanted the department you mean?
'1: He wantrd it changed this way. yes. And again I mas going on his reconunendatic~n on
that. I ligured he knew more about that than I did. And 1 thouyti~ he'd have more llo\vrr
il' he hail charge of all of it. Rut it seemed like hr xanted to rliviiie it up sonle way or
another. I could never understanil why he \\-anted it - or seemed . . .
I>: tle onlj u-anteti part of it
"l: Yes
Q: Let's see, nos- Joe Knight, he m;~s what? State I)emocratic I'arty chairman'!
A: I'arty chairman, jes
(2: That \\-as a pretty potvrrful positiun
A: That was really a powerful position. Yes, thq useti ttr al~vays intririiuce Joe, ('hicago
or any meeting. every Ucmocrat meeting he'd he up at the tahlr. lie had charye uf the
funds. Naturally he was t h ~ type nf man who could collect money too. Rut the: nlix--aiys
introduced him. Ilr o~ned a railroad. It wasn't long as that hut just as \vide as any of
thrm. So . . .
Q \$'ell'
(laughter)
A: He had a little spur over there at .Terneyville
Q: I srr. Yes hr was from Jerseycillr, 1 ~IIPJS.
A
IIe \v;ls from the Jerseyrille area round LIow, yes
Q: \fJ\'rll that was fairly closr so you rnust harp gotten to !inox\- him pretty well
A: Yes I did. He used to come over during the otf season. UTell even xvhrn I wasn't tllerr
he'd come over. But when I was there he'd always r:ome over and hare dinner a1 thc hotel
every aftprnoon. I guess hr didn't know xvh:~t to do with himself. He'd come ol-rr r:~rliest
about four o'clock and ac'd have :I drink or two. And then he'd procrrrl to eat and then
he'd yo back home. That's about as far as he yot through his later gears.
Q: Didn't he get into some financial difficulties?
.A: This was hcfore he got into this trouble. Whrn hv would come over to my place hr was
a very import:~nt fellow. In fact we put a lot of people to work in jobs because Joe hail
a lot I I influence.
~
And a lot of othtar favors \vr got hrought drlrrn lowards the area.
Rut he'd come into a place an11 - especially on Sundays, he'd hapl)en to 1)r down, so
everybody knea- Joe. you know, and would holler at him. Like old P:~ul I'owrll said, that
there's nothing tvtlrse than an old broken-down politician, am1 that's ahoul the truth. When
Joe was in his hey days, why, everybody wanted to talk to him and he couldn't eat without
somehody going up to his tahlc. Then after he got into this trouhlr we were going to talk
about, why. he'd come in and nobody would ex-en say hello tu him anymore. So that's rrally
what killed him. It wasn't so much from the physical standpoint as just the mental anil
it iiemoralized him so much that he just didn't have nu interest anymore in lifr.
A: Hi, died. I never did know the exact status of the tle:ll. His main trouhle xv:ls. I think,
getting in thal Civic Savings and 1,oan in C'hicirgo. 1 iion'l know xvhelht~r he was appointed
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

to hare a rr,rrirrr of that. But iinynay 1 sevn the court's record of it whrr? the) rlai~nt,thing you knew it n:lh (It.-
faulted. So mayhe thal's \r-hat the judge drcidrd. I\ny\\;ly it n.as ap~~eale~l iinii thtb higlirr
court sustained thc decision. Anti they pickrd UIJ his entire 'state on it. Iris rsti~te harl
to pay off. :In11 then the statr come over and l~icked his assets of his ilstatr up.
Q: \Yell, 1 ilnderstand that as treasurer in thr, l!Ifjil convention he hail silmc hjl

kno~r-. (;- I could have
got on but I refrainvd from accepting thern just on that hwsis hecause a lot of them \\-as
just junkets you'd go on_ \rere a trip anyway. It ~rnuldn't acconlplish an)-thing so I thnught
it was just a aasle of time.
Q: You scrred on thr :\griculture ('onlnritlee, I guess, alniost the whole time you \\-ere there.
A: All the tirne I was there 1-es.
Q Rut how ditl you crime to serve on that' Llid you request it, did y[,u'.'
:I: Yes. ..In11 another reason was, I Rues.; there \\-asn't to(, m:lny farmers rr;rlly, actually
farmers, a-hc ~vere in the legislature. In fact we had to put 8)n some who never 11a(l an>kno\\.lrdge
of farming ~vhatso~vrr on that rori~mittce.
: Ilu you recall n-ho some of t.hose people were?
2: I can't recall them hu: we use11 to kid them. .And they used tn ackno\vledgc that the>didn't
knon- anything about farming. They'd try to ask you somrthing ;ihout it. Rut ~i:ostl\-
I \\-as aln-:iys inlerested in farming, always nwnrd quite a bit of land and actu;~ll~ I'nr~neti
it and did know a little sornething ahoul agriculture.
Q: \\'hat Tvere some of the thing3 that cam? u)~ concerning farming here.:'
A: Oh, I remurnl~er used to he lhat thcay mere comj~l:~ining about these men l~ulting a
ro license thrse fertilizer people for on

like that. Usually some people in there never onn~ri a ru\\- or didn't know a thing about
any livestock or anything like that. They ~vould alnays rum? up \\-ith- like that.
Or we used to ha\-c this group that alnays opposed insectiritics, that's another thing, garden
rlul>s the>- called them. They'd probably play bridge :in~i talk atlout floners. Anrl thrn
they'd romc around there with ;luthorit!- on insectieidcs. I rernernt~er I onnecl ;I 1111 111'
orcharcis then. And my spray lill one year was eight>- one thousand dollars. Ant1 the!. Ihr
cluh, got ahold of me as soun as 1 come out of the house on? day and, "l)o an;iy \\.itti
irisertirities." And I said, "Lariies." I said, "I'd sure ~vish I could do that. I'tl save mt, a
lot uI' rnonc!-, but I had a fen acres I didn't get to, and the 1,ord surr rlirln't take car? oT
them hy himself, see." The bugs wrrr eating them all up, the wornis nas in the peaches
and al~ples. Rut I gu~ss they thought thtq nere doing some goo11, I guess the) . . .
Q: I guess thuy \I-eren't too successful I guess
A: Ko. They're still using them.
(2. \$'hat about cattle diseases like brucellosis?
(J. I believe it was up in the 1950's
:I: Yes that nas iquitr - ;ind then the)-'[i had anothrr nne there, cholera
vaccinations. That's :' funny thing too. They'd prohihit it. M'c \\-cnt to Canada on tha~ I
\vent lu Canada on a trip on that n here they never 1-accinatrrj ;In\ of their livestock. .And
cholvr:~ \\as extinct there and we folloired the same pattern.
I rrtneniher \re \vent out to some farm. \Ve had tu kill all of them on une particular farm
onc tinle. They just took a bulldozer and shoved them all in. The farmw lie complained
likc hell hut the state paid him a fair rice lor it. But seemed likc they nwrr eradicaled
that. But I don't know what really happened. (laughs) Like the old farnlvr s;i\s. "\$'ell
hell these retrrinnrians, or u-hoever v:rccinatrs, they can bring the cholcr:~ on thr f;irni." So
I don't know whether it's . . .
Rut I had farms \\,here I never vaccinated at all and I never had ;ins dise:ist,s. Rut there
was - hilly enough that the grountl Ivas always washed away and cleaned ant1 naturally
I tried that on another I'arm \\-ith level ground and muddy and \\-here they - I Ivas having
;I lot oT l~rul,lenl; n-ith diseases so I had to have a veterinarian frequentlb- in that case.
Q. The terrain itself have that much to [lo 11-ith something?
.A: Seems that way. yes. Yes, lvhcre the! have to walk around and live in his mire. \vily.
I guess the disease just stay into the soil. \Vht?rc if you have ;i sluping groirritl ~vhcarv the
rain u;ishes it all away, you come up to some clean soil again, why - t1ir.n I guess we had
larger acreages where we could more them around. UTe didn't keep tlir~ni cr~iii~~act either
as much as you would other~visu.
SESSION 8, TAPE 12. SI1)E 2
Q: \Vere (here :in? olh~r lyprs of diseases hosirics br~irellusis and cholera that you
A: I just can't recall, it's been so long ago. I rcmernber we had one good man 011 tlir~rr~.
\\as Johnnl- Lewis. Ile was a goo11 man on agri(.~~lt~irv. And then we had this Trllr,\v \\.ho
got to be - I think he was 1)ixon's scr:retary's dad. C:illah;in, old man Callahan, hr \\.;IS
on there. And then we had a fello\v the narne of Joe stlmc?body, Joe -- he \\;is :I tiiari
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

who knrn. sonrething ahuut agrirulture. He. . . . can't recall his name anymore. liut those
men were familiar nith rural areas and ahout farming.
Q: )That ahout soil conservation.' Did that come up:'
:I: Nnt too much ihen. That's taking place more in the last ten years. They've hren wry
:irti\-e no\\-. 1 advocate11 thal a long long time ago because on slime of in!. farms I vould
sre what was happeninx \\,hen the:- hertime eratiirated, especially hills .And \ve used to have
a lot or orchards. And rve grew a cover crop and ue didn't have an! \vast1 at that pal.ticular
tirnr. But after you'd slart cultivating and done :livay with ihe npjlle trees and a lot of
- just havr these heavy rains and it would n~ash the soil all drin.n the rivrr. rIncl they've
herome quite active now and they shoulcl too. They'rc advocating this nu-till (leal
non.. .And 1 think someday 5-ot1'11 prohat~ly see a lot of that done because they're getting
ahout as good of results crop\rise as they do by plowing the ground up and cultivating it
and getting it just like the garden \%-hen the:- 1)11,1v it.
Q: Did they h;iie any particul;ir prohlems with feed luts'l You knon they've had su much
trouble lately, contamination of soil and so on.
A: Yes. Well \ve didn't have loo murh of that then. Your feeti lt~ts lveren't cornpart as
they are now You diiln't put them - like your hogs, \ve didn't have ;in!- of that
pruhlem. You didn't knon what confinement feedin2 n-as then. The last years they've
started. E\-vr!. county arou~~rl that I'm familiar 11-ith, they all have it non-. And that's
going to tit, a prohleni, 1 ran tell that. You're going to see a lot of coniplaints. You drive
along the highwah- and you can smell th' odor and years ago they raised just as many lulgs
in the same county and you never knrx a hog existrd. Yo\v they ])roh;lhl\ don't have any
more hug.; but they'le gut them in rnore closer lnts and in that jiarti(.ular area it just fouls
the air and I imagine the puhlic is going to do a lot 01' rotnplaining.
Q: \Vhat ahout this Livestork Shipment and Sale (:omrnirsiun that you servcti on in l!,aT
arid 1!158Y Do you recall the objective of that cc~m~nissionl
A: Well. thc sales harn, that's another thing we kind of put hark on the feet. Repatilir
peoplc 11311 some ronlidenre years ago. Why, only thing you'd go to a sales t~arn to pick
uy) was sumehody who had an old ilisrased animal or wasn't al~lr to walk or rno!dn't ship
it on the other 1n:irkrt. the>-'d put it on a sale harn and that's \\hat you'd exprrt to gel
thrre. So they (:lttaned that up pretty well.
And they came up with solnr rules governing the type of structure of tht, s;rlr har11. You
ha0 to haw them rovered so it wasn't ;I manure lot. :Ind made them kwp tlirni srruhhed
up and cleaned iout. And naturally jtru had to have ;i veterinary then to\\-ards thost, last
years to, when you wrnt in, to see it \v;is varcinated, either when it came in or n.hrri it
went out.
Then also 11-e hail sorncxthing lo (11, with interst:itr sliipmenl. I know we rrsed to cluestion
~vhy \re \\-oai~l\\-ant to he more particular than the state or Missouri. Wr ost~l to have ;i
nran te.jting rattle. If somehody'(l hring thcnl over to an lllinoi.; sale harn. lvhy, we'd havr
son~ehody on the hurderlinr to check th~~sr uttle. I al\v:~ys tht~ught that line state \vil~~lcl
Ilr just as murh interes~rd as the other stale. And so I argued that enough that the! tinall\
dcci(lei1 to le! the federal take it over and let them handle it better than let the st:ites handle
it indiiidually. :I lot of these la\\--:i kind of conflirtrd \vith earh other. \Vhen somehuci\- from
Rlissouri cuul(1n't hring in a load nC cattle in Missouri, yuu hari to have thetl~ checker1 out
or vice versa. I ihink Missouri tonk them and \\r 11-ouiiln't take them fin. a long tirnr. Ilut
I just tigured oncts that tvr should he just ns n1u1.h inlerestetl in ~irople here in our Ileait11
as hlissouri pcol~le shor~lti hc in the health of their people. But the>- all rot it ~~nrkeii out
nun s(, it's uniform so . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: Did you travel much nith that commission?
'1: Yes we diri. JVP \v:inted to see how they operate in other places. A fello\\ hy the niimv
of Bob Craig was on that and some senator down in southern lllinois. I can'l rernenihrr
his name anymore. He \\-as real active on that also. And we traveled aroun~l (111ite a lot
to see ho\v they used to operate. And ive also had a lot trying to get some contr~)l rlf the
milk deal. Rut we could never do anything ahout that.
We went to California one time and \ve tried to pattern after California la\is. See, they're
set up where you've got a dairy herd, you can't just start selling milk. you've got to tia\.e
a permit to sell milk. And they could rontrol that because thev've got the ocean on one
side and the mountains on the other. Rut hou romp over here in these states, wh!-, it would
he pretty hard to do. If somehody wants to sell something. they grow it and just take. it
over the borderline. But I guess thes'vv got something worked out now so our milk supply
is working out pretty good.
Q: Where did you go in California? Did you go to the legislature there?
A: Yes \i-e attended the legislature. In fact we :ltten~leil thc legislature in 'very state where
\ve would visit and we had anything to do with something on that order. JVe'il see how they
regulated it. And on the milk deal in p:lrticular in C:llifornia and on thc sale l~arn - I
remember one of the largest sale barns was up in North Diiliuta. JVc went 1111 there and
seen ho\v they operated.
Ant1 a lot of them hark hcmre now pattern their ogeralion after the -- >oti car] gt~ lo thr
sale harn no\\ \vilh the assurance of getting some good livestock. In 1':ict. :I Int ni' thc p;ickt,rs
no\\- go to the sale harn ant1 buy their complete supply at a sale barn :inymort~. It sul.~
rhanges the marketing conditions of our livestork. .And it was a 1)onctit to thi, farrnc7r
berause he has less cspense. Ile can load a lot of it in his o\vn vehicle an11 irurk ant1 haul
il himself \\.here usetl to hc 5-ou hati to hare some trucker to haul it in to n market. Antl
it's quicker. Usually a sale harn is within reach of him, within an hijur or so rc.ach of his
farm. Anti so he doesn't havr much shrinkage that way of his lives~r,ck either.
Q: Did you have anything to do with the storkyards at St. Louis or Aiton'.'
A: Well we had some dealings with the stockyard. Fello\v by the name of - gosh, I used
to know him real well. He was in the hankirrg business too down there. IIe had storkyards
up at East St. Louis. But he was ver? cooperative. And they still have some operation
there at the stockyards yet, but nothing like they did years and years apo.
Q: That's at East St. Louis?
A. Yes, East St. Louis yes.
Q: There was a commission for four years from 1!l511 to 1961, the (:ommission to Study Interstate
Shifting and Sale of Agricultural Commodities that you served on. What do you recall
ahout [hat?
A. Well thal's when we were tryinp to promote the sale of prain tn Jn11:in :inil difTt,runt
places. And \ye were trying to puhlirize the fact that our soyhean - I rtmi.rn1~t.r il cnrrc,ctly
- \\.as a hetter hean than they raised other places. I don't know \vhi,tht.r it was or
not. Rut seemed like \\re did do some good. JVe pot some of the exporters to g1.1 intcrestcri
and start huxing some of our products over here.
Q: Ilow tiid you go ahout that? Did you do much traveling with that or . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: \Vr ~ntrrtainzd several - one time \vr had the amhassadors from all these diffrrent forrign
countries. And just one of us \wrr allutted a different group to i3ntertain that partirular
. . .
Q: \Vho did b-ou entrrtain?
:\: Let's see, ivho was it? One time I had a Belgian proup 1 helieve. I al\va)-\-s r~xnlcmher
one time I had a group out there at one I I ~ the farms. Lye enlerlaine~l them, and the
povernor's wife was out there. Kerner's wife, and she, really, a \vonderful person. But liked
tu drink too much. These people wasn't aware of it. And they were wanting to he soriahle
and they offered her a drink all the tirnr. Antl then finally I could nutic

A: No. No, never did.
Q: Let's see, we had an office estahlishcd in nrazil and the other one was in Hong Konp.
I guess.
A: Hong Kong. yes. Hong Kong Les, that's
Q: Did you meet any . . .
dl: Yes I met them over here, one or Lwo meetings at different times. But I never did go
over there.
Q: \Vere these the Communist Chinese that you me1 from Hong Kong area or were
they . . .
A: No they \rere from the proper, the proper - yes, fronl the mainland
Q: Was that the main function of that cnmmission then to
A: To promote our agricullural products, yes. We figured try to sell Lhat our ~)rr~ducLs was
hrtter, produce more than whatever they were going to make out of it Lhen lwr
tonwise. And u-e were supposed to have some statistics to prove that =,hat they raised down
in Mississippi and different places wasn't as gootl a betin as we had up here. The same with
our corn.
Q: Let's see the St. Lawrence Freeway opened up sometime along in there
A: Yes. \Ve took a trip up to Canada on that. I can't recall too nrurh aboul that
anymore. We went up to Quehec on that that Lime. We sludieti that url your highway
system. They mere about the first, what you'd call Lhe espressway. And tu my own Lhinking
at that time, I thought that's terrihle, you know. Tahe all the traffir: away from the
little towns, hecause a lot of them was existing from the tourists you know.
(3: Yes
A: Bul we traveled all up and down there. And 1 talked to a lot of them. :It tirst they
really was against it. You'd get up on these highways and there just was no pl:~cr to, nothing,
no place to huy any gas or restrooms or any commercial setup what.soever. An outlet
nnlj ahout every twent.y-five or thirty or mayhe further than that, they'd have an offlet, where
you could get your gas and so f0rt.h. And 1 thought that was terrihle. We traveled most
going on the St. Lawrence River, see.
Rut now 1 see we're patterning ours all after that Loo in a proper way. I was against that.,
hut I can see how I was wrong on it. Because we rnada a sludy - lihe Kolla,
Missouri. They thuught they were going to lose sc~ much money from this highway eliminating
from t.he town by bypassing the town. Rut it did and they're existing and doing more
business than ever. So and the same way in Canada. These trucks don't, spend :my rnnney
anyway the>- claim. That was their argument at that particular time. They usually fill u11
:~nd they've got enough gas to make the entire run. Anti so t.hey just go right on
through. And it's hetter for the trucks. Keeps them off the trafic. And it's bettcr for
the other area because it's kept the big trucks out of the xi-ay for your tourists who was
making use of that area for tourism. And I was wrong on that.. Rut when I first seen it
I was totally against it. I thought that would just r.uin these t.owns over here, thcn I
changed my mind locally on that whole thing now.
I relnemher I fought, went along wit.h all the other local people over at Pittsfield. Gosh,
we had meeting after meeting. An11 they wanted to bring this road, keep it throuuh
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

town. And a lot of people was complaining ;111(1ut their big trees. Yuu knu\\- I'ittslield has
got trrcs on hot11 sides, see, they're brautiful. And 1 alwah-s rc~ncmt~cr a guo11 friend of
mine, Eli 1.a~ IIr hat1 a motel there. An11 oh, he'd call me evrry day, keep that road
coming through this town and it would ruin the town and his husiness would go to hell. Sn
after 1 made a Cerv trips around an11 1'11 changed lily mind a little bit, and 1 was trying to
sell him on that irlca. hc,'~l just Ire better off if it (lid go aruund. Anti I told him onr d:?y.
I said, "Ed," I said, "hy thr timc this is built you and 1 vill he gonr anyu-ay." AIIII sure
rnough Ed's gone and I'm ahout ready to go. An11 the higha-ay's nnt tluilt yet. 11ut it is
started that (lircction. .And it's the hcst thing thal rver hap~)enrd. Thry'll do all the hosinrss
the\- want LO do thrre in trwn and be better off because it does L~ypass the toa-n.
Ko\v this environmentalist group has got the bridge held up or the expressa-ny a.011111 have
t~een huilt o5.w there. But, gosh, the proplr arid i~usinessmen in Pittslirld all Ecrught that
and fougllt that. Hut now their big problem is that these hig stores are coming in and building
on the o~~tsid' of the city. And thv\-'re taking their business all ~,utside this toxn. So
it isn't thv high\vay that done it, hurt their business, it's the Vi:~l-Mart and K-hlar: and
all them are coming into these little towns now, and Krogcr. and they're putting clal~nratr
la!ouls on the edge of to\\-n, and have plenty of parking. %ems like they're killing Lhe little
torvns ;is far 21s the do\vnto\rn district is concerned. I'd visit a half a dozen of then1 rect,ntly
and evcrl- one has got tht, s;lmc cornplaint. Jersch-rille, their hr~siness is all going 11ut to
thr edge of 105%-n on account uf \Val-blart moving out there, Pittsfield is the same way. -2nd
srrms like that's the way the merchandise business is today.
Q: Yes he I it' i n . Did the state I~yislature haw anything in p:lr.tirular ti] do with
Lhe S1. I.a\\~rrnre Preea.;ry opening or the . . .
A: l'hrre \%-as something bill I can't rcc;rll tr~r~ much irbout that anymore. That's t~ccn so
long ago.
Q: I knoa- the Deparlnienl of .Agriculture had to set up insp~.rtion sysrems and support
A: Yes \Ve \vent up there for some reason. I remember xhrn \viL?;me in town and \ve
got lo ihe hotel and, gosh, they cleared the hotel ;md the front of the hot~sl. I was driving
one of nry cars that time. And cleared the cntranre. .And always recall the instarice -
oh, it !%.as unusual - I was chairman of that thing at thal lime, teml~orary rhairriian or
somrthing. Anpva! it was up to me to - th:~t's what I alxays disagree xith our nic~tho(is
of politics. \Yr shr~llld train our rnen for thr joh fur which we don't havr any training.
We work like hell to nr;~ke a few hucks to be :ible to get in politics. And then you're not
familiar xith \\hat gl,~:s rjn. Where the other ~:ountries, they train their men from childh~~o~l
up.
\Ye had n rrieeting one particular time. And we had these high-l~arked chairs and had a
~iinnrr, n stat? dinner. They to;lstell to the presidenl of the LTnited States. And it \%-as my
turn to tuast to - and all, whilt, I was a kid x-r had king of England you kno\\-.. Who the
hell - thr Lord had to he x-ith me for me tn think ahout the queen because >-ou knobr- I
just ordinarily \\-oulti ha\.? thought - ~ ~ ~ L ~ !-ou'd I I . always talk about thp king of
England. Hut aftvr that I always tnld they ouglit to t~rief somebody \\-hen thry'd ~u sorileplace
to tell them \\-ha1 the customs of some country - and some little things might come
up that you might knwv tlut yo11 just wouldn't fanliliarize yourself wilh. And I think ~hey're
doing that a little bit no\v In our age the)- didn't 11o that but that's okay, n .~ took a chance
on it.
Q: LVell not, a-as thi.: a meeting thm with thr governmenl of
:I: Yvs, some type of - oncl of thr forms of gnrernmenl. I renicn11,er thry hati the change
of thr guards. And it was very inil~ressive.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: What other subjects came up at this meeting with the Canadians?
A: I can't recall anymore what did conic up
Q: Had you made any trips on the St. Lawrence
A: After that?
Q: . . . Freeway?
Q: Did you go hy boat that time?
A: Ko, car.
Q: By car? Drove up, huh?
A: Yes
Q: How ahout Mexico? Did you have any occasion to go down to Mexico?
A: Kot on commission trips, no. I've been to Mexico but never did go on commission trips
Q: Let's see, in 1959 they passed legislation to establish meat and poultry inspection. I)o
you recall anything about that?
A: Yes, yes we went to Chicago and, posh, we'd inspect some of the rest3ur:lnts hack
there. And they had to have these chirkens stacked up in the sun. And they'd just he
slimy. And that pot me so I'd never eat a piere of chicken away from home after that.
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: But that's one thing, these commissions did do some good. They brought in a lot of regulat.ions
that did correct a lot of that because seeing some of those things that really happened
would allnost make you against eating some of those things that they served.
Q: Was this the agricultural coninlittee that did the visits?
A: Yes that's one thing I can recall yet, those chickens. Because there's nothing worst than
had chickens. And they'd have them stacked in the hack. Ice was all off of them :~nd the
sun would be shining on them and they'd probahly take then] right out of the box and then
fry them that way or something and you'd think you were getting fresh chicken. That's
one thing they made a lot of progress on in the last few years. The merchandise you get
today, I know I had a chance to check a couple of them, even local, like a chicken distributor
here. And gosh, he's got stainless steel, he's got refrigeration and then when he ships them
out everything just is spic-and-span. And they've done a lot of advanrement in that respect.
Q: But there wasn't much control then before 1969.
A: Before that, no. But our biggest. prohlern it seemed like was in Chicago though. That's
where all the complaints came from. That's what usually starts a lot, I guess - \veil, Iwrtaining
to any law - just like crime today. They make laws before them that has the must
crimes hut in some place else probahly wouldn't hare any crime. But they still have that
same law adliere . . .
Q: Did >-ou visit any place other than Chicago to check
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

:I: Oh, n-c went a few other places but \r-e didn't have the complaints other places as you
dill. But it niadc it had for a lot of the smaller places to have a setup like the state was
requiring. you put a lot of them out of business. You take a lot of these proplr who were
trying to hutcher a little an their own. And l~r~hably were clean but the state started putting
so much requirements on them that they just put them out of husiness.
It \vas ahout like the nursing homes. same way, that was set up to start the same way hut
I was against that for a n-hile. I seen how nice some of t h smaller ~ ~ ones were taking
care of their patients. But ovrrall it's a big improvement, they need something like that
I guess. They've got to have laws to take care of it heeause everyl~o~iy isn't that thorough
like the people I was assnri:lted with who would do a joh like I thought they were going
to do. Ererybody doesn't do that type of a joh.
Q: One of the things thc Agriculture Committee would have hecn concerned with would he
!he fairs, like the State Fair for example.
.A. Yes
Q: Did you get involved with the operation of th~, State Fair'?
11: Oh I went along. Paul Powell was quite a . . . voice in that. He was kno~vn - anyhody
who wanted anything done on the fair or anything changed or tht, t~ctterrnent of the
fair. And Paul did do a lot of work on that. He took an interest in t11:it. And that mas
his ace in the hole. The Republicans went to him for advice and, rep~r~lless n.hrrher there
was a Republican in power or a L)eniocrat. Powell was the key man when i! come to the
state fairs. And I was al\va>-s :I Powell follower and anything Powell thought was good for
the fair I \vent along with.
Q: Do you go out to the fair very often?
A: Oh I uspd to yes. Hut after you've seen a fen nf them, why, you've seen them all. It's
just the same old routine.
Q: Clyile Lee was involved
A: Clyde Lee, yes he was real active in that too
Q: He helped get the Illinois Colt Stakes
A: Yes, down at L)uQuoin'. Yes.
(2: . . . horse racing event?
A: Yes, Clyde - well he stayed with that too. Clyde did a lot of \vork on that
SESSION 8, TAPE 13, SIDE I
Q: Do you remember any particular issues that rame up regarding the fair'!
,I: Offhand I can't recall anything
Q: nyhody rrpr \rant to get beer out thcrcl
..I: Oh yes they (lid, that hrought up a couple times. I can't recall too ~iiuch al~oiit that. Bli!
rrm~>rni~er that n.as an issue. And I went alon~. If they ~vanted to drink t~ccr. let then1
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

drink beer. Didn't make me any difference. That wasn't no big issue for me.
of them made a big issue out of that at that time.
nut some
I was always pretty liberal in thinking toward gambling or drinking. I used to argue that
with Governor Stevenson when he was governor. He wanted to do away with slot machines
and all that. And I said, "When you try to control people's morals, you hare a heck of a
time." And I was always brought up in a German familh-. I could drink all I wanted to
and I never cared about drinking, see. A lot of my friends' parents was real strict, \\-ouldn't
allow them to drink and my God, they got to be drunkards. But soon as you tell someboily
they can't do something, that's about when they want to do it.
Q: What about the distributive fund for rounty fairs and that sort of thing?
A: Yes, I can recall the)- fought around on that for a long time
Q: Were you supportive of the MrCormick Place, the use of . . .
A: Yes I supported that.
Q: What was your idea there? A lot of people didn't from downstate
A:I know they didn't. Oh I just thought that it was something that - it was xrell-publicized
and see, a lot of downstaters didn't go aIong with Chicago but I always helieved that Chicago
done the whoIe state some good. I went along with a lot of things with Chirago that some
of the other fellows didn't go along with.
I think we was a little narrow on that but just like on the schools, for instance. Years
ago when they first - that's when I was real interested on the Revenue ('ommittee that
time we had some increase in the sales tax. If it hadn't have been for Chicago on our equalization
base a lot of these little counties couldn't exist in their srhools. .And that money
came from Chica~o from sales tax. Where years ago our merchandise business was enlirely
different. See your mail order was sending out all the business. Chicago, Sears Roebuck,
Montgomery Ward and all them, you didn't have the local business like you do now.
And I was for the CTA [Chicago Transit Authority], subsidizing that. I happened lo hare
a good friend who was the head of that at that particular time over in Pike County. And
just to oppose it because it was Chicago, I never did do that. I figured, well, if they could
get by with CTA and furnish some transportation they may not have to have all the highway
up there, maybe we'll get a little downstate. Maybe I was wrong in think in^ that way, but
that's the way I always thought.
And I thought we always had something to be proud of in our state. The big cities like
Chicago, we'd had a lot of thin~s. I always pushed this for years and years and years. You
didn't have to go out of the state of Illinois to find everything you'd want. You rould go
to Chicago, if you'd travel the whole state, you'd not have to go to a foreign country. You'd
just about seen it all. You could just about get everything you wanted. And I pushed that
years and years ago, tourism. I tried to express that. I think it's paid off for me personally
in that respect because a lot of people's doing that today in their own litlle \my, in the
IittIe business I have. A lot of people are doing that now, making small trips, tr;~velin~
around the state, and stopping in at my place. Where years ago they thought they had to
go to a foreign country or California or someplace when they had a week or two and it would
take them three days or four days to get there. And four days to get hark and when they
were hack they were more out and tired and this way they enjoyed their vacation if they
got two weeks or so.
Q: Was there a formal organization, tourism or~anization, any at . . .
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

.A: Not at that timc but they promoted it later on after 1 got out of there. But I iil\v;~ys
said I nns an ambass;i~ior of my own. I promoled ihat. IGreat believer in that. I could
see just as much here in our :irt2a, just like rve've got some of the prettiest scenery you have
in the country just right around Calhoun Counly. I got a lot of criticism from my oivn
peu111~, IOC:I[ people, because I brought too man) people in our area. They tlitln't wan1 then]
in there, set?. T~P)- didn't benefit from then]. They thought I ivas the only one rvho 5v;is
benefiting. nut indirectly they benefit too but see thar's being narrow again. You dnn't look
far enough ahead. Yo~v I think a lot of people are looking at it differently because there
are so many pen11le are ernployed in different ways and hringing 11eo1~le in. Anil the statistics
sholx- that ever> lime you get a man in an area he's gootl Tor a hun~lre~i dollars a day,
and somebody gets it.
I know .Arizona is really promoting that now, Lrying to take a lot away from Florida. Seen
a rvrite-ul~. clnr of their reports. they said that the people up there wasn't rourtrous in
Pheonix, that they ~veren'l train~vl for that. They didn't pay then1 enough, tney tlitln't have
the right type personnel, a lot of the establishments didn't, that they urg'il then1 to gel
better help or train them better and pay then] niclre because if they could get that, keep
some people in there. how tt~uch more money t11~')- would spend in that area. And it's
true. It's getting to be one of the hig money factors in any area, is tourism.
Q: \Yell, while you wre in the legislature did >-ou have any particular acriorls that )-nu took
in order to increase tourism in Illinois'!
21: Oh I used to always try to promote - see we had a park doxvn there. I used to always
try to bring out to all my associates ahout thc heautiful park we had and about our rivers
anti ahout our ferries an11 in the section there rvas so~nething different than hey had anyplace
els~. Rut I never - let's see, diii we try to rstat~lish something on that? I think
we did. 1 can't recall I did that or I (lid then or Iatvr. I was on that Mississi1)pi River
highiny commission for a while. Brydia was the he:id of that and I think he took his ~vife
along one time and he ch:irgeiI it up to expense. And son~ehody criticized thal. .And 1 think
:hat stopped that then for a\vhile. So I think they yl~t that back into effect no!\-. And I
think they shoulri because ihey sh(~l11il continue lhat If they had a superhighivay up following
the river it ivould sure be beneficial to the \vhule area too because it ~vnultl draw a lot
of people to this area just to take a drive.
Q: Course thv Great River Kuad
.A.
Great River Road, yei
(2: . . . is kinti of a start on that
\Yell. were there an)- particular county fairs? Was there a cuunty fair at .Jerseyville that
,!ou ..
A: Jerseyville had a county fair, yes. And illorgan County had a fair, ant1 ;iii;in~s County
had a fair. They all had fairs in the district. And we finall? got one duwn in Calhoun
Count)- which I had surnething to do with. Paul Ue\var ivas real active then in promoting
it. He ivas a judge down our county. M'e ha11 ;r star; in a little way. .And they've
advanced. They'rp subsidized 1011 to a certain extent now anti thry havc what they call the
Apple Festival and I think they hind or work in on it.
Q: Ilo~v tlitl )ou go about getting that started?
A: Oh I think Dexx-ar was push in^ it. And thim I kind of associated him xith Powell and
that's the way \ve got things rolling on that deal.
Q: ;issocialed him with Fo\rell. what do you mean"
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

A: Well we introduceti him to Powell and Powell took it from there. He
Q: I see. Lrt's see, Powell, one of his main interest3 was a fair way down south there, I
guess around Vienna.
A: Vienna yes
Q: In that area.
A: Rut Powell had a reputation to be interested in all fairs. lie \\,as invited to all of
them. And he went to a lot of' them. Especially when he was campaigning, that was onr,
of his big issues. And he'd attend them all too. He'd always relate how much he'll (lontx
towartl the fairs and so forth.
Q: Did you get invulvrd officially like secretary or treasurer of the organization or anything:'
A: I never hat1 time to he in, you know, these detail work. I never was a detail man. I
didn't have time to do my own work.
Q: I see. (chuckles) How about the idea of the apple festival? Were you involved in that
then?
.4: Oh yes when it first started. I was one of the hip apple proxvers yt,ars and years apo
see. And I was instrumental in hringing groups in from all o\.er the statc. :\nd we'd havr
little knick-knacks at one of my farms. And then we'd take them 1111 to this hotrl. Then
we'd have meetings somewhere else. That's years and years ago. Rut that ;irc3;i, 111~ whole
thing's changed too now. I don't know :lhout this apple industry nhether it's - I said a
long time ago, "Everybody who's ever heen in this apple intiustry in a hig way will evr,ntu;~lly
go broke." I got out of it hefore I went broke.
A: I notirvrl Nuperit Stipanski, they're closing up the hig orchard over at Grafton
now. They'rv trying to unload it. The only on[> I know is Eckcrt, he's really holding
on. He's got the right merchandising mcthods. Rut if you get nlore orchard than you ran
actually takv care of yoursrlf with just one or two men, you're in problems.
Q: When you were invol\~eti with the AgriculLure Committee \%.as there any articular problem
that arose concerning migrant workers?
A: Oh yw. We had some groups who would oppose them because they diiln't havc f;iciIities,
proper facilities, for them to livp in, and toilets set up and things like that. So wc had
to make some laws on it in regard to that toir. And I guess thry hail some reason for coniplaint
in the way they were handled I guess. I know I had ti] hirr cluit.e a few myself. We'd
call on people who'd drop in during the season. But if you tlitln't have then1 you wouldn't
get your crops harvested. It had its good sides but il made it t~ad for us somet.imes, some
of the la\vs I made. Rut on the other hand you had to 11;ivc then1 too hecause sumo people
will take advantage of the situation.
Q. What kind of laws did you put in'! fIealth and that sort of thing?
A: llealth mostly, mostly health when I was in there. IIad to havc a building, rrect tluildings
and had to have a toilet built a certain way. And thcn you had to 11;iv(> :I t(lilc>t
wherever y~u're working place was so they didn't have too far to go. I know I hought sonle
of these 11ilrtable toilets and had thum set up different places. And you had tu h:lrv drinking
water anti. . . . Rut I think most people now do that automatically without hiivinp ;i \:in.
tu do it. I don't think anybody would - aroi~nii this area anyway. Mayhe tiown south in
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

some of then1 - hut their unions are taking over there so thry (lun't haw much
prohlern. They've probably seen it. Nou- the)-'re going overboard. They've probably got a
man haul water for every twenty migrant xvorkers or something. That's how it usnally
happens. It goes to the ertre~neither way.
Q Did an\ legislative matters rome U ~ concerning J apples or
:I: I can't recall too much. Joe Engel was quite an expert. He's a federal Inan on that
;it the time. Ere's dead no\\.. Joe is the one that always put the display on ;ipples at the
fair too. He done a wonderful job. He went to Chicagn and went to the floxver sht~w when
they had it and he displayed the flowers and. . . . I'm trying to think of some of the -
a lot of it came in when - pertaining to the fruits. Sevrral came through hecause I war
very much interested then at that particular time. Being in tile apple business.
Q: You mrntioned the insecticide business that came up then.
:I: Yes
Q: Anything else like th:lt that
A: There was something in re~ard to the package and things like that, in marketing. And
how you had to have them marked I call that. But there again somebody who was selfish.
just for a fexv dollars, trying tn (iefrat the Republicans and then somehod? had to come in
and make ;I I;LW to offset that. If you're running a husiness and xant to do it for )-our
own henrfit you try to give the huger his money's worth without gypping him to hegin with.
(taping stopped to greet customers, then rrsnniccil
Q: What about the marketing of cattle? You mentioned the sales harns that you'd Knttrn
involved with there. How ahout the - like Arrnour and Swift and that sort of thing'! The
actual butchering anti . . .
,I: Oh yes.
iVe'd
Q: . . . packing houses . . .
11: . . . see the slaughterhouse. Oh hat was one law. The method of killing them. I can't
recall too much ahout it tnit I rrmember I was very active in that one because we had a
ncw \\-a? (if - I don't know what group \\-as proposing that. And finally we visited a slauxhterhousr
to see h o they ~ killed them. Some of them had a hammvr and another one had
a ball and they had - finally got some guns. some shot that was sul~posed to kill them
instant. 4nd we introduced a bill on that rffect too. But again that originated from sonit,
group. They had a logical case there too.
.And it was - trouble of it is sometimes these fellou-s miss when they'd hit that hammer
and didn't kill thorn anti then the animals would suffer. The>- n-anted something more sure
if they shot them once, they were dead. I can't recall \vl~:it packina house that Xvas shere
the pig was still squealing and they ~iidn't kill him and they'd hang him up on this rack
and just roll him over. And thrn they'd slick him and that would kill him finally. And
their argument was that the animal \\-as suffering which I guess he did suffer. So they
wanted a more sure \Yay of killing them instantly. And that's what they put some hills
through. I can't recall too much what they - it's s~irrlething ahout a typo of a Kun that
had a load in it and it ivuuld kill them. So . . .
Q: I lid you visit the stncky;ir(l
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Q: . . . like at Chicago?
A: Oh yes, oh yes.
Q: How about the International Stock Show [International Livestock Exposition]' Did you
go to that . . .
A: Yes I went to that a few times too.
Q: [)id you raise any show cattle of any kind?
A: No I never did show any. I always prided myself in having good cattle. I used to have
some beautiful white-faced cattle. I kept registered cattle. But there's a lot of \x-ork
involved in doing that. It's not too profitable, there's more publicity than anything ~,lst,. I
usually hought them and then just kept the papers and never continued with thrm. I had
cattle which probably looked as good as show cattle but I never did show thern. I just
hought a hull the other day. It was a show over at the Angus Breeders Association. Hut
I'll just put it out on the pasture and pasture it out and breed my cows with it. I'rn not
going to curry it every day in great detail and all that.
Q: So you weren't too active then in attendance at fairs after you . . .
A: Not after I got out, no.
Q: Did you officiate at any fairs at all?
A: Oh years ago we had - sure, when we have - it was politics. Why, you'd always come
to the fair and you'd be one of the - introduce you and they'd make a speech and you know
you'd go to position for publicity's sake more than anything else. Always he several of us
who would do that. Have a parade usually too. Have a hig banner and sornetirncs you rode
ahead of the parade, depended on hou- much influence you had in the area. We were promoting
the fair too.
Q: Well. (chuckles)
A: If you were on the end you got the front seat, and
Q: On the distributive fund, there were attempts made along the line to raid that for. other
purposes other . . .
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever have any conflict over
A: I was always against raiding all of those there. Just like when they had something earmarked
I didn't like somebody - because they usually never paid it hark anyway. They
robbed a fund for this, robbed a highway fund, they robbed a gas fund, they rohbed the
school fund or whatever it was. And none of it was ever paid bark anyway. Naturally
when it was earmarked I always believed in it staying in your appropriation. I stayed pat
on that all the time. That was one rule I had. I didn't want to make any exceptions on
that hecause I know how easy it is to take away but you don't take it bark.
Q: Let's see it was the New York World's Fair. I've forgotten what year that occurred now
- 1965 was it, or 1963, sornetirne . . .
A: Yes. I had a chance to go out there with a group. I think they took a train or sornr,thing
goinp out that way from Chicago. But I didn't go. I think I wasn't ftseling too ~ood or
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

sonielhing happened. I think I had a hear! attack about that time and that kin11 of sloxved
me up sonre.
Q: Let's see, I think - w-rll I knoiv thr funds for lhat Illinois Pavilion, I think it xv:~.; a
~.iaviliun . . .
A: That's righl, yes. oh, I remember a lot about that, about !hat pavilion. I'd hale to read
up, kind of rehash that in nry memory. I remember about this . . .
Q: It seems like \Val! Llisney got involved with it
A: Yes
Q: .An animated Lincoln of sonre sort.
A: 'I'hat's right, oh yes. Th:~t was quile an issni).
(2: In what way? L)o you think il was a waste of money or what?
11: Something happened. I can'l rec:ill ton much. Something n-as funny about that. I
can't remember what that was anh~nrorc.. (pauscl nut I haci a lot of good comments on i!
from people who visited from Illinois. But 1 can't recall offhand then. nut I ~.c.rnemher no\\-,
somebody made some ol~position and made an issue of that.
Q: 1,rl's $re, I'aul Randolph arrd Clyde Lee I think !\.ere on that comn~ission
.A:
Yes.
Q: I don't know nho else was involvc~l with it. I knoxx- Paul Kandulph xwnt to I)i.;neyland
and . . .
:I: Yes. I had a chance to ro to that a1 lhat tinrv. I remember no\\-.. But for some reason
I didn't go. CI.v-de and I made one trip west. I can't recall \\-hat that was ahout
anynlorc. \VP went somei~hvre.
Q. \Vrll, he was on the sale
A: LVell, KT xx-~*nto Flrnver and Co111rado Springs I rememht.r, orre time, (:lyde and I
dill. Because I rvc:ill ahout going dowr~ to Colorado Springs. I used lo have snn~e tourist
cars down there. ,lnd it was quite diflerent then when \vc got down there fro111 wha! it
was when I \\-as back there years and years ago.
Q: \Vpll he n.na on the sale barn
.I: Salo Barn ('ommission.
,\: Yes, mayhe that nns it. Maybe that's \\.hat he was with. yes
(2: you didn't ect to New York fur
A: KO.
(2: . . . thtz fair sort 01 thing. What happened that you hati a heart attack? Ylni just
;I: Oh yes, kin(! of ;I strain. I don'! knoxx-.. \V,, h;id a lo! of issues ~.onri~r~ 1111 and I guess
1 !:IS just in a quand:~ry. Yon didn't know whirh \vay to go, a lot nf issues 1t1t.r~. And
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

then I think it \\-as I took them too seriously at that time. ilnd one night :iho11t midnight
I guess was I had that heart attack. So then I was out for quite a while.
Q: Was this in Springfield that it happened?
A: Yes in Sprin~field.
Q: Which hospital (lid you go to?
A: St. John's in Springfield
Q: Well that kind of slowed up your legislative activity for a while then'!
A: For a while, yes. Yes I wasn't allnwerl to 110 anything. I wasn't allo\ved to carry a tlriefcase
or anything. In fact I \\.as in the hospital for quitc a while and then I recuperated
for quite some time. I did everything the dortor sail1 He told you not to do anything,
not to have any exercise and I went down on the farm finally and went u-alking. And now
they tell you to do that. Twenty-five, thirty years later they cell you Lo walk and then they'd
tell you not to walk.
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Index
.Ahl.nhani Lincoln Hl~tcal. 1T2
:\darns Coi~nty. 1 l. 101. 101. 105, 128. 147,
197. 197
.Agriculture, Dcpartrnc,nt of. 1'33
Allon, 15, 19, 211. 26, ;31, 34-35, :39, 42, 43, 54,
.5.5, 58, 65, 86, 87, 130, 1-li, lr5,5, 168, 173, 180,
1!l0
Alton Boxboard and I'aper Company. 35
.American Medical .Issociation, 1-
American Packing Company, 51
.Angus Breedc,rs Association, 200
Apple Festival, 1117-198
:'Lrmes, Monroe (Blackiel, 100-101
Arrnr>rlr (meat company), .51. 19$1
.Ailas, l(i1
Eakrr. Hrrt. Jr. 111, 1l.i
E:ll~i Knob Cross, 179
Ilanking. Ilcpartrncnt of, 129
I3atchtan.n, 58, 64. 65. 66
Haugh. llrriry. 851
Bcck\vorth. \Villianl, 9::-!bi
Bcblgiuni, 191
I~ellevillc, 157
13inky. Ed, .58
Hloomington, 165
Blue Ilook, 126
~ -
Babbitt, 1,oren M., l.i!l-ltiO
Brazil, 192
Ilreesc, 16
IIrooks, (:. Jt'ayland ~i:'urlyi. TO, i2
Rrolrning, Nornia 1,t.r. $17
Br~~ss~ls, 1, 2, 6, #, 25, 21, dl, d5, 2 i, 59, 65,
!30. 9;~l. 101-10~>, 116, 112. 144, 167, 176, 181,
191
13t1~Ii?y1o\rn, .I7
Cahokia Downs, 121, 150
('ain. Fred, 129, 131
Cairo, Y2
i'alhoun County, 2, i-5, 8, 21, 25, 35, 37, I;?,
ti'>, 72, 73, 75, 76, 86, 87, 101, 104, 108, 152,
162, 161, 167, 168, 179, 180, 181, 196. 1!37
('alhoun I'oint, 4-5, 51
('allahan. Joseph, 188
Canada, 1'32
Capuzi, Louis F. illr)~~. 1:X
Carlinvillr, !J2, !J6
Carnegie, l)alr, 95
Carrigan, .James i)., 111. 111
Carrolltlln, 71
Carsonrille, 15
Cattle industry, 50-51
Chamber of Commerce, 1.12
i:hautauqua, 42
('hicago. 9, 10, 25, 26, 32, 16, .52, 69. 70, 71,
76, 88, 92, '37, 98, 99, 103, 111, 1l:i. 121. 13,
126-130 passim, 1.34-137 passim, 113. 111.
117, 150, 152, 157, 161, 171, li2, 17ti. 177,
178, 185, 185, 191, 196, 199, 200
Chicago Bar Association, 182
Chicago Do\rns Race Track, lilJ
Chicago Transit Authority, 116. 137. 1%
Clioale, Clyde L., :3!1, 114, 124, 126, 1.56, 161,
1 s0
('iacci~~. Kicliolas U. (Side Sho\rI, 1%. 1,ih
('i\.iv Sn\.ings and Loan, 185
Clahaugh. (:harles JV., 117-118, 1.11
Clark. \ViIliani (;. IBill), 115, 126-127
Cc~lot.:~do Sl~rings, 22, 36, 43-11, 67, 201
Cc~nrriiissic~ns: Illinois Comnrerce, 95, 117;
In~lustrinl 2.5, 19, 80, 111, 113, 182; Justice,
12; Livestc~ck Shipment and Sale, 189-1911;
Mississippi Scenic Parkway, 197;
Organization of' the General .Assembly
(COOG.1) (Katzl, 116. 166; Sale Barn, 201;
to Sludy Interstalr. Sliil~ping and Saic of'
ilyricultural Commoditirs. 1!10-1Y2
Con1rnillees I1,egislativt~): .Agriculture, 112,
l:38, 189, 195, 198; Appropriations, 163, 161;
Banks and savings and lc~ans, 1%;
E:uecutive, 181; Fish. (;ariir and LVildlil'e,
171; Industry arid LLI~CIS Rcl:~tions, 11:3;
Insurance, 1:38; Puhlic :liil, Health,
Well'arc and Sal'ety, 138; Res.eriue, 112, 116,
1-10, 171, 196; Roads and l3ridges, 112,
160.161, 166; Watcr!ra)-s, Conserva~ion,
Fish and Game, 112, 138
Cuncord, 128
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Connors. \Villiam J. (Botchy), $18, 135
(:onservalion, Department of, 112, li9
Considine, Huhert D.. 113
Cosentinu, Jerry, 11:;
Cousley, Paul, Sr., 168
(:ox. JVilliam 1). (Billy), 84-8.5
Craig, Robert, 134, 135, 178, 190
Cripple Creek, 41
llaley, Richard J., 11.1, 115, ll(i. 127, 135,
l:{ti. 137. 1.17
Daridson, John A,, li3
1)avis. Corneal A., 126, 135
Ilawson. Frances L., 132
De [,a Cuur. Joseph I,.. 110, 115, 134, 135
De Soto Hotel. 37
Ilran, Dizz?. 58
Decatur. 93. 130. 112
I)emocratic Party, 73, 76, 101-102, 107, 110,
128. 130. 1.17. 148. lh5
Denver, 201
Depression, The, 22, 76
I)er\vinski, Edward J., 113
1)etroit. 102
l)t,vvr, \Villiam E,, 71
I)v\vilr. Paul, 165, 197
Ilirksrn, Fherett M., 155. 175-177 passim
Ilisnry, Walt, 201
Ilisneylan(i, 201
Dixon, Alan J., 115. 121, 123. 124, 113, 153,
1,51, I88
Ilonohoo, Roy \V. IS0
Ilouglas, Paul, 175-176
lllJ\~, 1x5
Ilat~ai~ue, 172
Danne, (;eorg~ W.. 125, 126
Durhin. Kichard J., 130-131
I IuQuoin, 195
Etigles (Fraternal Society), 87
East St. I.ouis, 37, 51, 190
Elrersparher, Edxl-ard C., 133
Eck~rt. Neal, 1!4S
Edders, Frances, 138
Edna, Ryder, 76
Edwards\,illr, 155
F:Ifingham, 42
Eisenhower, rlwight D.. 115
F:isenhower, fihrl, 145
I*:lks Clah, 86, 87, 98
Endicott Johnson Shoe Company, 21
Engel, doe, 199
Engineers, Cr~rps of 80, 164
1;:thnic groups. 120
ICLhnir groups: Blilcks, 5.1, 82, 125, 126;
(:an:llli;~ns. 191; Chinese/, 192; Germans,
18, 19. :Xi-34, 4i, 82, 107, 196; Jewish, 16, 17,
18, 19, 21, 23, 2i, 61, ti?, 63, 82, 117; t'olish,
125; Russians, I!)
Fairfield. 94, !18, 157, 195
F'amuus Barr Departmvnt Store, 18
Farm Bureau. 89
Fary, Bill, 115
Federal Huilding. 55
Fvrher, Edna, 13. J2. 61
"Fetcher" Rills, lil
Fillen, Lawrence. 125
Finance, Departmvnt of, 129
Financial Institutions, Department of. 181
1x6
Finrlley. I'aul. 107. 129. 130. 167
Finkle, Jerome, 159
First N:~tionai Hank in Alton, 16
Fol~sy, 11. 58
Fort Myers, 6;
Fort I'irrce, 67
Gailrid, 19
Gale, Max, 17, 18, 19, GI, ti:+
(;ale, Mrs. Max, 6.3
Galeshurg, 93
Gay Old Ilog, 4'2
Gem City Business College, 20
Gem, The Yacht, 5.l
General Motors Curporation, 38
(;erniantr~uvn, 16
(;erniany, 1, 2, 9, Iti9
Gibhs, \Villiam F., 90, 101, 180
Gill, Ward and I lestvr ('ompany. 21
Gillesl)ie, 173
God:ir, (:harlrs, 32, -17-48. 108
Godfrey, 130
(:ulden, Eaglv ferry, 5, 36
(;oodman, Michael, 152
(;rafton, 4, 7, 42, 43, 14, 57, $6. Itix, 197
Granata, PeLer C., 136
Granite CiLy, 15'7, 15!4, 183
Granite CiLy Steel (hmpany, 45
Great River Road, 86, 16S, 197
(;reathorrse, (Jpie, 122
Green County. 102
Green, Dwight H. (Pete). 75
Griggsville. 109
Grindle, IViIliam I.., 115, 1Y2, 129, 1'13, 16:j,
173,174, 1x0
Hagen, Charles, 9, 46, 32, 70, 71-i2. 88, 40,
Y2. 104. 177
Hanihurg, 58, 161
Ilannitl:ll, 79
Hardin, 29, 32, 41, 51, 55, 57, 58, 5!)-60, 70,
73-74,75, 81, 84, 161, 166, 168, 181
liardin Bank. 81
I layes, 67-68
Heckenkamp, Jiwyh b:.. 104
Highland, 16
Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Hinan, Martin, 79
IIitler, Adolph, 33
liodge, Orville E., 182-183
Hollowai, James D., 111, 173
Hong Kong, 192
Hoover, Harold A,. 146
lhnen, 11. B., 110, 117, 128, 129, 170, lil
lllinois Bar Association, 182
lllinois Bottoms Lake, 35
lllinois Colt Stakes, 195
lllinois River, 4, 53, 55-56, 161
Illinois State Archives, 143
Illinois State Fair, 195
Illinois State Library, 143
Illinois and Michigan Canal, 174
Independent Voters of Illinois, 146, 152
Internal Revenue Service, 123
International Livestock Exposition, 200
Irving, [)on, 107, 1-18
Jacksonville, 48, 101, 105, 106, 110, 145, 180
Japan, 190
Jefferson Barracks, lfi8
Jefferson Hotel, 15
Jenkins, Charles J., 126
Jersey Count-, 89, 102, 127-128, 164
Jerseyrille, ti4, 185, 197
Joe Page Bridge, 73
Johnson, Lyndon B., 175, 177
Kaiser Wilhelm, 33
Kampsvillc, 29, 75, 7ti, 183
Katz, Harold A,, 115, 116
Kennedy, John F., 129, 144
Kennedy, Ted, 124
Keokuk, 4,32
Kerner, Helena, 191
Kerner, Otto, 127,137, 138, 151,191
Kewanee, 92
Kinkaid Lake, 180
Kissing Camels Peak, 44
Knight, Joseph, 92, 102, 128-129,134, 150,
159, 162, 184-18i
Knights of Columhus, 86, 87-88
Krogers, 193
La Salle Hotel, 135
Ladoe, 118
Lafayette, 35
Lake Charles, fi
Lar, Ed, 193
Las Vegas, 40, 186
La~vrenceuille, 157
Leclede Steel Company, 45
Lee, Clyde, 111, 124,125, 180,195, 201
Lee, h'oble FV., 110
Legislation: agriculture, 149, 172, 187-191,
194-200; banks and savings and loan
associations. 181; hudget :~n(l
approprialions, l:li, 183. 200; husincss anrl
economic developnrent, 190-191; civil
rights, I::%-1::::: crinre and corrections. 1'11;
ducati ion. 117-118, 1:l7. 13, 196: elections
and ~.c;ipj~ortionment. 10'2, 127-1:10. 1:3:3,
1-13, 151-152; gi~mhling. ll

l:~r~l~~s~~~t~t, >1:1ry, ltill
>I~GPP. 1;iIl. :)$
?~IcI,:~iri, Jim, 12s. IS7
>I?l>k, .Jot', 111-112
>Iere~lilli. Sarli, ::I
>lerrill, IOti
>I~Y~KLI, ]!I1
>It>yt,rs, Rol~vrt, I;?, 42, li2
>Iii~Ii:11~1, 2!+
>Iikr;~, Ahna,r .I., lZ3, 121, l.>:l
>11Inol, 172
Xlissi?s~)~),i l:iv?r, I, 5, 40, ,357, 75, 132, 1517
Xla>lin?, llj9
Xla~nlgut~~~t~ry \V;~ral, I !llj
\luusr.. I,u]-al 0rdr.r uf, Xti, 1U4
21orac.hr.s (';in(ii- ('u~npan]-, tii3
3111rgan ('ountj-, 102, 1117
Morris, John E;., 112, 110, 113
hlounr ('he) enne, 11
31~1rphyshoro. 180
S;I~II~, 13iI1, I, 92, 117-118, 156-158: prrcinct
c:lllt;lirrs (riistrirt rwmmittermrni, 90, 91,
IOi, l!!l, 1:U; voting rpcor~i, 111, 113, 133,
1;31, 1:4ti, 110, 111~ l%, 171. 172
Poll;~cL, \Villian~ E:.. 1,j:
Po\\ ell, Parll, 39, T2, $16, $17, 111, 113, 114-115,
118, 121, 1Z2-19ii passim, 138, 139, 1-13, 1.15,
117-l.JO passim. 11:~-lT,il. 164, 170-171, 180,
1 SO, 1 S,j, 19c5, 197-l!IX
Po\\-i~rs. F~xnk, 1.5. 1"s. 128, lCi2
Pr;liri? 13

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield

Carl Wittmond Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield