acpo administration of firearms and explosives ... - Dorset Police

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ACPO Administration of Firearms and Explosives Licensing
ACPO ADMINISTRATION OF FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES
LICENSING WORKING GROUP
Meeting 02/2007
CHAIR:
SECRETARY:
MINUTES:
Adrian Whiting, ACC, Dorset Police
Sue Cox, Staff Officer, Dorset Police
Alex Webster, Dorset Police
DATE/TIME: Thursday 21st June 2007
LOCATION:
Room 604, West Midlands Police Headquarters
Lloyd House, Colmore Circus Queensway, Birmingham
07/02/01 ATTENDANCE AND APOLOGIES
1.1 Attendance
Adrian Whiting, ACC Dorset Police, Chair
Sue Cox, Dorset Police, Staff Officer
Alex Webster, Dorset Police, Minutes
Kevin Mathieson, DCC Tayside Police, ACPOS
Brian Ellis, Sussex (South East Region)
Gary Smith, MPS (London Region)
Roger Weedon, Surrey
Fiona Smith, West Yorkshire (North East Region)
Graham Widdecombe, Home Office
Les Spice, Gloucestershire (South West Region)
Richard Udall, Derbyshire (East Midlands Region)
Tony Slate, Derbyshire
Mick Fidgeon, Essex (Eastern Region)
Richard Dennison (Norfolk)
Fiona Windmill, Tayside/ACPOS
Jim Jones, GMP (North West Region)
John MacDonald, SCUF
Graham Biddle (rep Paul Dale) Staffordshire (West Midlands)
Dennis Wilmer, Home Office
Paul O’Loughlin, PSNI
1.2 Apologies received from:
Ian Fleming, Policy Officer, Scottish Executive
Bob Megahey, PSNI
Paul Dale, Staffordshire (West Midlands Region)
Dave Pryor, FSS
Helen Rees, Dyfed-Powys
Phil Healy, CUF
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1.3 The Chair welcomed everyone, particularly Kevin Mathieson
(representing ACPOS), Paul O’Loughlin from the PSNI and
Graham Biddle who he also thanked for undertaking venue and
catering arrangements. He took the opportunity of confirming
with members that he had now been officially appointed Chair of
ACPO FELWG.
1.4 The Chair also welcomed Martin Parker, Lead Scientist for
NaBis together with his colleague Tom Duffin. Mr Parker took
the opportunity of clarifying his letter to FLMS of 5 June 2007.
1.5 He confirmed the creation of 3 Forensic Hubs located in London,
Manchester and Birmingham and explained the necessity for,
and requested help in creating, a reference collection of firearms
and ammunition. Following extensive discussions with regard to
health and safety and legal/liability issues, the following actions
were agreed:
1.6 Regional representatives will inform FLM’s not to act on the
letter until legal issues are considered and resolved.
Action Point 1: Regional Reps
1.7 Martin Parker will seek appropriate legal advice with regard to
health and safety and liability issues and identify who can accept
liability for NaBIS.
Action Point 2: Martin Parker
1.8 As agreed when Bob Golding presented to a previous meeting
of FELWG, Martin Parker will arrange a meeting with Roger
Weedon and Mick Fidgeon so processes can be discussed and
clarified.
Action Point 3: Martin Parker
1.9 Once the actions above are complete, the Chair will take this
forward (either through FELWG or SCUF) by writing to Chief
Officers to obtain strategic sign-up.
Action Point 4: Chair
1.6 The Chair thanked Mr Parker and Mr Duffin for taking the time to
attend FELWG to clarify issues and agree a suitable way
forward.
07/02/02 MINUTES, ACTON POINTS & MATTERS ARISING
Previous Minutes – 20 th February 2007
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2.1 Amendments suggested by Fiona Windmill (12.3 and 13.6) have
been made. Members considered and agreed the previous
minutes which will now be circulated and published on the
Dorset Police Website. The minutes from today’s meeting will
be held in draft form only until verified at the next meeting, after
which they too will be published.
Outstanding Action Points
2.2 Action Point 1 – SCUF Updates & Work with CPS
Will be covered today by John MacDonald in SCUF update.
2.3 Action Point 2 – Practical Shot Gun Paper
Paper prepared and circulated to Scottish Executive and Fiona
Windmill prior to publication as FELWG Circulation.
Action complete
2.4 Action Point 3 – NFLMS User Group Meeting
Actions complete
2.5 Action Point 4 – Clarification re Data Cleansing
Action complete
2.6 Action Point 5 – Liaison with HSE re COER Exemption Times
Tony Slate reported that HSE have not yet responded to him
and it may be that some forces are not aware that the
exemptions are being withdrawn. Regional Representatives to
ensure FLMs know the position with regard to exemptions being
withdrawn.
Action Point 5: Regional Reps
2.7 Action Point 6 – BASC website re MSER
Action ongoing
2.8 Action Point 7 – FSS & RFD Status
The Chair has written to Mark Mastaglio (copied to Regional
Representatives for onward transmission to FLMs within their
areas for consistency of approach) together with ACPO lead on
FSS issues. Action with regard to Home Office considering
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appropriate exemption order within Firearms Act while looking at
air weapons will be covered in Home Office update today.
Action complete
2.9 Action Point 8 – Firearms Forms
Mick Fidgeon updated that the Home Office Forms Working
Group had met two weeks previously and work is in progress.
ACPO is being sighted on issues.
Action Complete
07/02/03 National Firearms Licensing Management System update
3.1 The Chair informed the group that the National Firearms
Licensing Management System is now operating in all Forces
within England & Wales.
3.2 The Chair requested that Regional Representatives ensure that
Regional User Groups are set up and that they identify a
suitable representative to sit on the national group (this does not
necessarily have to be FELWG regional reps).
Action Point 6: Regional Reps
Regional User Groups should comprise practitioners. If
practitioners are uncomfortable representing regions at the
national forum, managers will be acceptable but only so long as
they have the appropriate knowledge and understanding to be
able to deal with the issues and liaise thereafter with their
regions. The Chair’s preference is, however, that the
representative should be a ‘user.’
3.3 A schedule for regional meetings will be produced in due course.
3.4 Work is being undertaken by Anite on the ‘request for change
list’ and the microsite will hold the master copy.
3.5 The Command & Control Interface went live in Cambridgeshire
on the 16 & 17 June and if it continues to operate properly will
be available for roll-out to other Forces in the near future. Mick
Fidgeon will feedback any issues raised by Cambridgeshire.
Action Point 7: Mick Fidgeon
3.6 The Chair discussed concerns raised with regard to safety with
CSV file and its downloads, which gives details of live, expired
and revoked certificates but not refused or cancelled. The Chair
will liaise with Selvin Baker and highlight the importance of the
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CSV file including information on refused or cancelled
certificates.
Action Point 8: Chair
07/02/04 Explosives Update
4.1 Tony Slate spoke to his previously circulated paper highlighting
specific issues of note.
4.2 Reference the issues raised with regard to CPS and charging,
the Chair will take these forward with the CPS through SCUF
contacts.
Action Point 9: Chair
4.3 The ELO course between 1 – 6 October currently has 11
attendees which makes it marginally viable. Another 2
nominations are needed to ensure the course will take place. A
reminder will be sent to forces who should let either Tony or
Fiona Smith know by August whether they will be sending
anyone.
4.4 The Chair expressed his support for the ELO conference
scheduled to take place at Thames Valley in November.
07/02/05 Issues From Practitioners Group
5.1 Issues of interest raised at the Practitioners’ Group the day
before were highlighted by Richard Dennison. These will be
included in the minutes when published but included:
• The need to remove the previously circulated ‘health
warning’ issued with regard to .22 ISSF Single Shot Free
Pistols (ACPO Intranet letter of 29 December 2003
refers).
Action Point 10 – Chair (Secretary’s note: Action
completed by way of FELWG Circulation 07/07 of 3 July
2007)
• A paper by David Penn and Bill Harriman proposing
changes to HO guidance on antique firearms.
• ‘Accompanied condition’ on certificate for deer shooter (a
letter received from the Deer Society on the same issue is
being replied to by the Chair on behalf of ACPO FELWG).
BASC has suggested that pre-grant training for shooting
deer is still, in some instances, being required. Regional
Representatives will reiterate to FLMs that ‘informal’
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training is as valid as formal and that each case should
be individually assessed.
Action Point 10A – Regional Representatives
• An update on revised guidance should be available from
the Home Office towards the end of the summer.
07/02/06 Issues From Technical Group
6.1 The Chair informed members that work is currently underway to
produce the 3 rd Technical Newsletter.
6.2 A 4 th submission from Sutlers Stores (Pietta 1873 Colt Single
Action Army Revolver) has been examined by Dave Pryor. His
findings are that it should be regarded as an imitation firearm for
the purposes of the Firearms Acts 1968-1977 and Sutlers are
now, therefore, marketing this weapon.
07/02/07 Criminal Use of Firearms Update
7.1 John MacDonald updated members on points of interest
including.
‣ The control strategy which is now in place together with
associated delivery plans and rationalization of some 100
pieces of work.
‣ Firearms tracing (enhanced by NFLMS, NaBIS and the
Joint Firearms Intelligence Cell)
‣ Work with regard to international common procedural
practices
‣ Concerns with regard to overseas visitor checks. NCIS
previously performed this function and SOCA may do it
as an interim measure but not permanently. O/seas
visitor checks for licenses are not as stringent in many
countries as in ours and members took the opportunity of
summarising the issues for John MacDonald who will take
the opportunity of raising them at a meeting with Interpol
in July. Tony Slate undertook to forward issues with
regard to explosives and Gary Smith will assist in
producing a list of countries whose checks cause
concerns.
Action Point 11: Tony Slate, Gary Smith and John
MacDonald
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‣ The potential for an amnesty has been agreed but as
timings are important (NFLMS) this will not be before the
next calendar year.
07/02/08 Home Office Update
8.1 Graham Widdecombe updated members on developments with
regard to the most recent Commencement Order re the VCR Act
and took the opportunity of running through it’s contents. A new
order will probably be issued sometime next month with
remaining provisions coming into effect on 1 October.
8.2 Work is underway with the Gun Trade re register requirements
and a draft will be available for circulation within the next week
or so for comment.
8.3 The IPCC is currently looking at various aspects of the issue of
firearms certificates and may make recommendations with public
safety in mind. Closer scrutiny may be expected.
8.4 Dennis Wilmer referred to a previously circulated paper with
regard to ranges and notification by NRA and NRSA that they
will not carry out periodic checks. The recently issued Home
Office circular in this regard will not, therefore, be entirely
accurate and is unlikely to be reissued.
8.5 A copy of Glynn Alger’s letter to Dennis Wilmer dated 9 May will
be circulated to Regional Representatives for onward
transmission to FLMs so they are aware of this development and
the current situation.
Action Point 12: Sue Cox (Secretary’s note – completed by e-
mail on 26 June)
07/02/09 Handguns in Police Possession Compensation Scheme
9.1 Mick Fidgeon spoke to his previously circulated paper and
members considered the issues raised and options available.
9.2 Dennis Wilmer took the opportunity of giving the Home Office
position and requested more time before moves are made to
destroy handguns in police possession.
9.3 As the compensation scheme commenced in July 1997 and,
with most handguns having been in police possession for nearly
ten years, the Chair requested that the Home Office consider
disposal options.
Action Point 13: Home Office
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07/02/10 Deer Order- Amendment to Conditions
10.1 Mick Fidgeon referred to his previously circulated paper with
regard to DEFRA proposed amendments to the Deer Act 1991.
10.2 This was intended to forewarn members of possible changes
coming into force on 1 October 2007 and consider a suitable
way forward.
10.3 Option (B) was agreed as the policy position and members
agreed to the wording as set out in 4.1 (with the addition of “(as
amended)” after the words Deer Act 1991.
10.4 Fiona Windmill agreed to provide Sue Cox with details of the
Deer Commission for Scotland's website for circulation and
inclusion in the minutes.
Action Point 14: Fiona Windmill & Sue Cox (Secretary’s
note: action complete – please see website details below and
Sue Cox’s e-mail of 2 July to R/Reps).
10.5 In Mick Fidgeon’s absence, Tony Slate and Sue Cox will liaise in
mid September to ascertain the exact DEFRA proposals before
making any amendments to conditions on NFLMS. Simon
Dicketts informs this will merely require a formal letter from the
Chair of FELWG).
(http://www.dcs.gov.uk/BestPractice/FirearmsBallistics.aspx)
07/02/11 FELWG TOR
11.1 Members considered the FELWG draft TOR circulated with the
meeting papers.
11.2 It was agreed that once these had been amended to reflect
members’ comments, they would be formally adopted and
circulated by Sue Cox.
Action Point 15: Sue Cox (Secretary’s note: action complete –
please see Sue Cox’s e-mail of 2 July)
07/02/12 Transfer of Weapons between Forces
12.1 Mick Fidgeon referred to his previously circulated paper and
members considered the issues raised therein.
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12.2 After discussion, it was agreed to adopt Option C and the chair
agreed to liaise with those forces who are currently not
complying.
Action Point 16: The Chair
07/02/13 UK Athletics – Control of Starting Pistols
13.1 Jim Jones referred to a letter from UK Athletics, circulated with
the meeting papers and the problems encountered by them in
acquiring and retaining starting pistols.
13.2 After consideration members felt a way forward would be for UK
Athletics to apply for RFD status, with one nominated person
per force area. Obviously, this would require a consistent
approach throughout the country.
13.3 It was agreed that Jim Jones should suggest this course of
action to UK Athletics and explore with them the possibility of
using suitably coloured forward venting blank firers.
Action Point 17: Jim Jones
07/02/14 Western Re-enactors and Primers
14.1 Jim Jones passed around an e-mail received from John
Atherton, Firearms and Explosives Licensing Enquiry Officer in
GMP. This is just one example of potentially many such FAC
applications currently being received from re-enactment groups,
usually, to acquire primers for quick draw competitions.
14.2 It was agreed that Jim Jones would undertake a scoping
exercise and forward his findings to Dennis Wilmer who will then
explore the possibility of addressing the situation, if necessary,
by rectifying regulations.
Action Point 18: Jim Jones
07/02/15 Internet Sales of Air Rifles/Pistols
15.1 Jim Jones sought members views on internet sales of air rifles
and pistols and the definition of what constitutes a sale for face
to face delivery, especially in circumstances where the company
may be based in one country but the weapons made in another.
15.2 John MacDonald informed members that work is ongoing in this
area with Tim Crouch, Joint Firearms Intelligence Cell.
15.3 It was agreed that Jim Jones will liaise with Tim Crouch and his
findings will be assessed at the next meeting (matters arising)’
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Action Point 19: Jim Jones
07/02/16 Dispatch of Firearms Certificates
16.1 Members considered the contents of an e-mail received by Gary
Smith from Shruti Pandya following issues raised in the
communication from John Hensley to John Randall MP who, in
turn, raised this issue via Gerry Sutcliffe, Under Secretary of
State.
16.2 Members considered the content of Mr Hensley’s letter and felt
that disproportionate inconvenience would be caused to
members of the public in asking them to attend police stations to
collect their certificates especially when losses in the post are
minimal, set against the number of certificates sent out, and
taking into account the fact that postal system is used for the
conveyance of firearms themselves. To members’ knowledge
there has only been one recorded instance of misuse (which
was detected) and this predates 1997.
16.3 Members highlighted a number of administrative changes that
have been adopted to aid the overall security of the system
(labels, blank pages with addresses on them etc) and, taking all
issues into account, considered using the postal service an
appropriate way of despatching FACs.
Action Point 20 – Chair to respond to Shruti Pandya
(Secretary’s note: action completed by e-mail dated 2 July).
07/02/17 Medical Monitoring of Firearms Licence Holders
17.1 Members considered a previously circulated paper containing
proposals from Chief Inspector Pat Casserly of South Yorkshire
with regard to medical monitoring of licence holders.
17.2 This has been a consistently contentious area and many of Mr
Casserly’s helpful suggestions may have human right
considerations as well as needing primary legislation. At the
very least it would require a considerable move in position from
the medical profession which has, traditionally, resisted
becoming involved.
17.3 Members acknowledged that any measures taken within the
process, including references and the observations of counter
signatories, are only ever merely a snapshot in time but while no
system is ever 100% foolproof, the risk needs to be managed.
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17.4 It was agreed that the Chair will write to the Chair of the British
Medical Association to investigate avenues for joint working to
improve the current system and mitigate against the risks. Once
a reply has been received the Home Office and Department for
Health should be included in discussions. The Secretary will
thank CI Casserly for his proposals and update him on today’s
discussions.
Action Point 21: Chair and Sue Cox
07/02/18 Renewal Process
18.1 Members considered suggestions that some licence holders are
dissuaded from applying early for renewal of certificates due to
some forces’ insistence on the return of expiring certificates as
part of the renewal paperwork. In so doing, they believe they
are then unable to evidence continued lawful possession of
weapons, shooting or purchase of ammunition.
18.2 Members agreed that, as the information contained within the
certificate is required rather than the certificate itself, forces may
like to consider accepting photocopies for renewal purposes.
The holder can then be required to return the original once a
new certificate has been issued.
18.3 Some forces have, however, encountered reluctance on the part
of some certificate holders to return expired/cancelled
certificates and members consider that Licensing Departments
should remind applicants, either on the certificate itself or by way
of a covering letter at the time of issue, that certificates remain
the property of the Chief Constable.
18.4 The Chair will convey this to FLMs via Regional Reps.
Action Point 22: Chair
18.5 Members then considered the renewal process itself and
recommend the following as best practice:
‣ Twelve weeks in advance of the expiry date a renewal
form is sent out to the certificate holder
‣ At six weeks, a reminder is issued if the form has not
been returned
‣ If the form is then returned promptly with all necessary
information but the police are unable to delivery a
renewed certificate prior to expiry, a Section 7 permit is
appropriate and should be issued
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‣ If there is still no action from the applicant following the
six week reminder, a warning is issued advising the
individual of the need to lodge firearms with a RFD, or
other person with lawful authority to posses, at the
applicant’s expense, until a new certificate has been
issued.
18.6 The Chair will circulate this best practice advice to FLMs via
Regional Reps.
Action 23: Chair
(Secretary’s note: Actions 22 and 23 completed by way of
FELWG Circulation 08/07 of 4 July 2007)
07/02/19 AOB
19.1 CLA Game Fair, July 2007
Fiona Smith raised an issue with regard to displaying guns at
such events as the CLA and sought opinion on appropriate
certification.
19.2 If firearms were shotguns and they were lent to a certificate
holder for less than the required period there would be no issue
with displaying them. If they were Section 1 firearms, it would
be a matter of whether or not they breached the conditions for
display. If it’s under the authority of their registered firearms
dealership registration it is felt they should be re registered for
the new location.
19.3 Dorset Firearms Course
The Chair informed members that Dorset is currently
undertaking work on a FLM course and that Danny Bothwick is
available to be detached to forces if they wished.
Addendum: The FLM course that Dorset is currently
developing will be held within Dorset and Danny Bothwick
will not be delivering training at other locations. The course
should be ready for delivery from April 2008 and probably
last five and a half days – Monday to Saturday morning.
19.4 Tracing Registered Firearms Dealers
In answer to a question from John MacDonald with regard to
regulation of RFDs, Fiona Smith highlighted that this was
contained in the Procedural Good Practice Guidance. Fiona will
liaise with John MacDonald in this regard.
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Action 24 – Fiona Smith
19.5 Review of Procedural Good Practice Guidance and ACPO
Submission to the Home Office on Firearms Legislation
Members agreed it was timely to commission a review of the
above documents and those present were asked to consider
both prior to the next meeting and forward any comments they
may wish to make to Sue Cox.
Action 25 – All members
19.6 Amendment to Section 33 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act
1997
In answer to a question from Mick Fidgeon, Dennis Wilmer
informed those present that the VCR Act had impacted on a
response to the request contained in Mr Taylor’s letter to
Graham Widdecombe of 2 January 2004.
19.7 Position of Deputy Chair of FELWG
The Chair informed members that enquiries are being made to
identify a vice-chair but, should any force have knowledge of a
suitable candidate, they should let him know.
19.8 Mick Fidgeon
The Chair took the opportunity of wishing Mick Fidgeon best
wishes for his forthcoming overseas deployment.
07/02/20 Date, Time & Venue of Next Meeting
20.1 Date: Wednesday 31 October 2007
Venue: Sussex (exact location to be confirmed)
Time: 1000hrs
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