Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Major ContributorOfflinecornets?Reply #1 - Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 12:44amEeeww..., or however the kids say it these days. Scarey stuff. I suspectthat other than basic length to establish the pitch, the rest is prettyarcane. Hence, so many stencils. When someone stumbles upon a workingcombination copying is the next step.Trumpets, cornets, flugeland alto horns, for now.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #2 - Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 10:41amQuote Modify Split RemoveI lined up a few different configurations of instruments. The cornets thatconnect from leadpipe to third valve seem to be about the same length nomatter how bent. The straight trumpet like cornet leadpipe tube is shorterbut to the third valve and the first valve gets the extra length going out tothe bell. The trumpets have less configuration distinctions as to how thetubes measure and connect.However....the Flugal has the lead pipe connected to the first valve insteadof the third. And.... take a look at these three cornets. The Pan Americanon the bottom has its leadpipe connected to the first valve too. Theothers....and more standard way it seems...is to connect to the third valve.file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Now I know I'm just another old man with too much time on his hands andnot enough engineering sense to fully understand any technicalexplanation....however... just the wikopedia version would do just fine.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.com« Last Edit: Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 12:23pm by Niner »Back to topkevinView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWWRe: Theory of design of trumpets and98.230.65.201file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Major ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets, flugeland alto horns, for now.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:cornets?Reply #3 - Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 1:38pmQuote Modify Split RemoveWell, if you are brave enough to tackle this topic then I'm in too. Withoutspecialized knowledge of acoustics my comments will have to remain in therealm of the empirical. Hopefully someone who has actually designed andbuilt brass instruments that have been played by competent musicians willweigh in here.I believe that of all the elements that go toward making up a brassinstrument, the least significant is the wrap. All anyone has to do tounderstand this is pull out a "pocket cornet" and give it a blow. There is notighter, more convoluted wrap. Whether the leadpipe enters the valve blockfrom the first or third piston is also irrelevant. There are too manyexamples to mention.So that leaves a list of items that can be discussed individually but that allinteract together leaving the overall effect of the constituent itemsdependent on all the others. So some simple math will show how manypermutations there can be if say there are a half dozen elements. Then thenumber increases with every alteration of each part. It could theoreticallybe infinite.The beginnings of a list, and people could add to is possibly something likethis:The weight of the materialThe leadpipeThe Valve block ( including the path of the aircolumn as it progress throughthe valves)The Bell and stemI'm absolutely certain that any one of these items could be discussed atlength for at least a year if sufficient time and energy were allotted.There would likely still be arguments that went unresolved at the end ofthat time. That explains the vast variety of "modern" instruments. Thoseproduced from at least the early 19th century until today.The subject was interesting enough back in the day of the natural horn,but once the valve block or keys were introduced the potential forcontroversy has gone through the roof. I've heard it said that a horn canbe made to sound like a Bach or an Olds simply be exchanging the entirevalve block. Given the simple nature of the basic natural trumpet, thismakes some sense but I have two natural trumpets in Eb, one French, theother British and they don't sound alike at all. The bore, weight of metaland bell profile reasonably close but it goes to show the slightest differencemakes a world of difference.« Last Edit: Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 3:40pm by kevin »Back to topkevinView Profile Email Email Personal MessageRe: Theory of design of trumpets and50.93.86.61Quote Modify Split Removefile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Major ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets,flugeland alto horns, fornow.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:cornets?Reply #4 - Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 8:16pmThe singlemost confusing issue in brass design is the use of air in theperformers lungs. Other than the need for the player to use his breath toeffect the vibration of the lips and support the column of air within theinstrument, there is no difference between a brass horn and a violin in theway sound is produced. Basically, a membrane, tube or string which is"struck"or accuated in any manner in order to set vibration in motion. Thestrings use a sounding box to modify and enrich the sound. With a hornthe players lips buzz, establishing a standing wave within the tubing, thetubing thereby replacing the body of the stringed instrument, a gourd or afinely constructed wooden box or in this case a carefully constructedarrangement of tubes with a bell at the end. People wonder what theessence of a top quality instrument is and it is essentially the nature andthe refinements in these sounding boxes diaphrams or tubes. I lump theinstruments together like this because they all boil down to exactly thesame thing. A means of setting sound waves in air, in motion. The internetis full of material describing sound waves within tubes. The wave cyclesback and forth between the backbore and the bell. Hundreds of thousandsof hours of brass instruction could be saved if students were made tounderstand, from day one, that they are not blowing "through" anything,regardless of how much the image of a guy puffing away at the end of apipe suggests the act of "blowing".There are mechanical trumpets that require no air whatsoever to playsolid, clear tones. Trumpet automatons have been made throughoutEurope since the Renaissance just as modern researchers are doing today.Light a cigarette and play a short tune. Sure, eventually some smoke willmake it way through the horn but not in the way it would if you just blewforcefully through the instrument without playing.I'm an oldish guy with lots of time on my hands too and I like thinkingabout stuff that I'm involved in. The "rub" with brass instruments seems tobe in the way the standing wave is handled and the careful arrangement ofthe tubing diameter and bracing in regard the arcane "nodes". Which iswhere I find myself with absolutely nothing to say. I haven't studiedacoustics. it's enough to see that the arrangement must be optimized so asnot to interfere with the clear sounding of the nodes and the "partials" aswell. That's where the magic comes in. Just how all this is done by thecraftsman is driven by the particular sound he is after. There is no suchthing as the perfect anything let alone a brass instrument.« Last Edit: Aug 23 rd , 2012 at 11:41am by kevin »Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #5 - Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 9:29pmQuote Modify Split RemoveThanks Kevin for the thoughtful answers. Obviously you are way ahead ofme in getting a grip on the question of examining all of the pieces to thepuzzle of how a particular horn plays to the point it participates in the"form" that makes it what it is.I was wondering if there were some formula as to design of parts toproduce an expected note result. For instance.....to produce the keymoves to play a b flat concert scale that every middle school bandfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?plays...or used to play.. before starting any band practise, all of thecornets and trumpet players should go through the same key and lipvibration movements to produce an approximate sound result with eachnote as the scale is played. But....not all of the horns in a section are inthe same configuration much less the same brand or age. I was thinkingmaybe there was somewhere some rule of construction relative to brasspipe diameter to length as connected to the valve block to produce auniform result related to key stroke and proper lip vibration.It would seem to me that if someone were going to design a trumpet theywould have some mathematical formula for all of the pieces that wouldhave to plug in to produce a a horn that any trumpet player ought to beable to pick up and play with the same key strokes and expected resultfrom lip vibration. .Maybe what I'm asking is all a matter of trade secret.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kevinMajor ContributorOfflineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #6 - Aug 23 rd , 2012 at 11:53amNiner wrote on Aug 22 nd , 2012 at 9:29pm:Quote Modify Split Remove.......Maybe what I'm asking is all a matter of trade secret.Trumpets, cornets,flugeland alto horns, fornow.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:Going back to the old trumpeters Guilds, the craftsmen have maintainedsecrecy. Nobody wants to give the shop away.At a highschool band level, a mix of instruments is tolerated and to theparents, a varied group of instruments is fine. The tones produced are notall that far apart, but in large professional orchestras, the conductors canbe very picky about what they will allow. They are listening very closely.Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61bastrompetSenior Contributor(Planners)(Collectors)Researchers(repair)OfflineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #7 - Aug 23 rd , 2012 at 12:23pmQuote Modify Split RemoveQuote:Going back to the old trumpeters Guilds, the craftsmen have maintainedsecrecy. Nobody wants to give the shop away.Schilke studied the precise matter that you are discussing here. Hepublished all his findings and I remember a link somewhere on HUC to hispublication. No secrecy at all. Just a warning from me it is COMPLICATED.Enchanted by brassPosts: 1895Hilversum Netherlandsfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Gender:Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message80.56.202.10pryorphoneGlobal Moderator(Planners)(Collectors)Researchers(repair)OfflineOboes are best usedforsetting fire tobassoonsRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #8 - Aug 23 rd , 2012 at 2:02pmComplicated, and not without some qualification.Quote Modify Split RemoveI performed some ad hoc experiments with my trombone section backbefore my crash, with some very good ears, and what we determined wasthat almost every modification except bore profile never made it more thanthe immediate vicinity, in other words, not out to the hall.I began to think that Schilke's experiments were good for close-in effectonly.Posts: 999Wilmington, DEBack to topMichael KellerunPrincipaled Tuba EmeritusThe Delaware Symphony OrchestraView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW72.94.175.237NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #9 - Aug 24 th , 2012 at 12:43pmQuote Modify Split Removepryorphone, I know next to nothing about trombones, but the slideposition is obviously important, more or less, in achieving the desirednote. I say more or less, because someone who is young and a long wayfrom grown or somebody with a short arm and short reach has to havesome problems reaching the notes in the last position at arms length.A trumpet or cornet is more exact in that there is no slide tuning in actualplaying. And yeah I know that a band master, conductor, likes to get all ofhis horn sections in tune to his hearing to begin with but once the playingstarts I would think trumpet adjustments are ended.I'd think that a trumpet, cornet, flugal...and other such horns....would haveto be constructed to be to in a pretty narrowly defined performance slotright out of the factory. Even the cheap ones that nobody with anyexperience would want for various reasons probably find this slot in orderto have any chance of being sold and being replaced in any dealersinventory.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kevinMajor ContributorRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?thQuote Modify Split Removefile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Section LeaderOfflinePosts: 86Alabamacornets?Reply #12 - Sep 3 rd , 2012 at 12:05pmHere is another thought about the geometry of the structure. In thosehorns with the "balanced" valve block there seems to be different lengthof tube at least by lead pipe or bell pipe from more "unbalanced"configurations. Why doesn't this alter the exactness of some notes playedfrom one horn to another?Take a look at these horns that are all resting on a shelf with the belldown. Notice the next to last Olds Ambassador with the "balanced" blockand the Martin Dansant next to it to the right, although a narrower andslightly longer variation also has a, more or less, "balanced" block centerplacement. The Olds Super to the left of the Ambassador is somewherebetween " balanced" and unbalanced. The King Liberty to the far left isthe more ...standard.... unbalanced conventional version with the blocklocated nearer the mouthpiece.Back to tophttp://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201NinerSection LeaderOfflineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #13 - Sep 3 rd , 2012 at 1:05pmQuote Modify Split RemoveThought I should add this view. Same horns. Notice how the leadpipetube length overall , including the slide crook, seems longer on thebalanced horns.Posts: 86Alabamafile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Trumpets, cornets,flugeland alto horns, fornow.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:lengths and only so much can be derived from observation.If you asked someone which instrument had the longer lead pipe, a typicalcornet or a trumpet, they would probably pick the trumpet but the cornetleadpipe is often about 6" longer. Visual clues can be misleading. Theoryand design is a huge, complicated subject that few musicians would eventry to understand. Like pilots and flight theory. Some fall woefully short inthe theory department and can still fly well.Back to topPages: 1 2 3View Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61Reply Add Topic Notification Add to My Favorites Send Topic Print Mark as UnreadHorn-u-copia › Contributor's Cafe › Over Coffee ‹ No Topic | Next Topic ›(Moderators: pryorphone, kenton, gsmonks)Remove Move, Split & Splice Lock/Unlock Hide Sticky Remove Selected« Home ‹ Board Top of this page Forum Jump »Horn-u-copia » Powered by YaBB 2.5 AE!YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:08 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Sep 7th, 2012 at 12:27pmGood Afternoon kenton,you have 1 message, and nonew messages.A new 1899 Kessels catalog has been addedto the Library.Catalog Library Serial NumbersTradenames Links Search MembersAdmin User CP Help Logout HomeHorn-u-copia › Contributor's Cafe › Over Coffee › Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?(Moderators: pryorphone, kenton, gsmonks) ‹ No Topic | Next Topic ›Pages: 1 2 3Reply Add Topic Notification Add to My Favorites Send Topic Print Mark as UnreadMembers viewing this topic (1): kenton.Theory of design of trumpets and cornets? (Read 219 times)kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlinePosts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:Re: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #15 - Sep 4 th , 2012 at 8:28pmQuote Modify Split RemoveOH, Kevin, don't discourage the discussion, that is certainly fair game onhere. I suspect we may have a different perspective on the topic thanother sites.But maybe I should organize this a bit by moving the discussion toanother location where similar discussions have taken place in the past,and similar experiments have been undertaken to see if any sense can bemade out of the variations.Back to topView Profile Email Email WWW141.158.211.202NinerSection LeaderOfflineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #16 - Sep 4 th , 2012 at 9:29pmQuote Modify Split RemoveOk... I'll give up. Guess nobody here knows much about trumpetmechanical function and design. Just like me....and Kevin. Or, if theyknow, they aren't saying.Posts: 86Alabama« Last Edit: Sep 4 th , 2012 at 11:00pm by Niner »http://www.6thofthe31st.comfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?http://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kevinMajor ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets, flugeland alto horns, for now.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:Re: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #17 - Sep 4 th , 2012 at 11:44pmQuote Modify Split RemoveI didn't mean to sound discouraging. In fact, I wanted to encourage thegeneral line of inquiry by mentioning these other sites. They have regularmembers who are designers and builders of brass instruments. These guysif encouraged to do so have a lot to say. The archives alone could keep aperson busy for ages.As far as the distribution of tubing length fore and aft of the valve block,an average modern trumpet has around 24 inches of tubing before thevalves (balanced or otherwise), but the leadpipe portion comprises only 10to twelve inches. The remainder just goes toward filling out the averagelength. And, it is only an average length because the form of the bellmakes up the final accounting and this differs on most horns. There aresome very good explanations of this on the net. That's why when youmeasure a dozen or so old horns, they are all a little different length.These are modern horns, or instruments made after the late 1800's. Iconsider most of these instruments to be modern. But back in the day, thereal trumpets as opposed to the various horns and cornetti around, had noleadpipe whatever. They were simply the length of tubing with a flared bellat one end. The mouthpieces and backbore is all there was in the way of aleadpipe. This has always been the great argument about what constitutesa trumpet as opposed to a horn or cornet. Some classical valved trumpetswere made this way right up to the early 1900s. The purists claim that thisis in fact what makes a true trumpet with the sound and tone that wasknown back in the Orchestras in Beethoven and Haydns time.But, tastes and styles have changed and all instruments these days haveinternally tapered leadpipes of one fashion or another. These leadpipes arein fact where most of what wizardry there is goes on. Everybody has theirown formula and opinion on this. Trumpeters these days are often tradingout stock leadpipes for aftermarket pieces. I guess what I'm really tryingto say in a round about way is that the balanced business is only there to"balance" the horn physically, to make it easier to handle during longsessions. It has no effect on the sound of the instrument or the distributionof waves and nodes.Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61kevinMajor ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets,flugeland alto horns, fornow.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,Re: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #18 - Sep 4 th , 2012 at 11:55pmQuote Modify Split RemoveNiner wrote on Sep 4 th , 2012 at 9:29pm:Ok... I'll give up. Guess nobody here knows much about trumpetmechanical function and design. Just like me....and Kevin. Or, if theyknow, they aren't saying.Like Kenton said, maybe the members here do have a unique slant on thesubject, looking at it from a historic perspective. Most everyone here postson the other brass forums on occasion. The technical side of the businessis tricky and maybe we hesitate before putting our foot in our mouth. Likefile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?CanadaGender:they say discretion is the better part of valour. I on the other hand ambeyond embarassment. So I don't mind holding forth a little on anythingshort of organic chemistry or astrophysics.Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #19 - Sep 4 th , 2012 at 11:59pmQuote Modify Split RemoveA quick summary of some of the measurements I did a long time ago.Posts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:InstrumentBore% of horn beforevalvesFischer Trumpet .500 40 41Keefer Trumpet .500 47 45Cavalier Cornet .500 35 40Olds Cornet .500 54 41Wurlitzer Altohorn .500 9 73Lauther Civil War Vintage tenorsaxhorn.531 18 72King Sousaphone .703 17 80%conicalI quit building that table after it quickly became apparent that there wasno pattern developing.But, I bring it up at this stage because although I do believe there is somescience lurking in the construction of instruments, as clearly someinstruments do play with better intonation than others, etc., I do not findany evidence that the % of conical tubing, the position of the valves or themanner in which the tubing is bent or braced; has anything more thanincidental effect on the performance of the instrument.But then, I don't sell new instruments, so I don't have to posture as to whymy instrument plays better than the next guys.Back to topView Profile Email Email WWW141.158.211.202NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #20 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 12:07amQuote Modify Split RemoveQuote:guess what I'm really trying to say in a round about way is that thebalanced business is only there to "balance" the horn physically, tomake it easier to handle during long sessions. It has no effect on thesound of the instrument or the distribution of waves and nodesSo why is this so? There is probably a formula for total horn tube lengthrelated to tube diameter and metal density with added formula for slidegeometry and what the keys being utilized do to the path of the vibrationof that causes the sound or the feedback to the mouthpiece and the part itplays. Where the keys are and how they relate to the rest of it has tofile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?matter. Or is this astrophysics or organic chemistry?Up until at least the last couple of decades trumpets weren't constructedby computer model. Somebody with some mechanical ability and someformula constructed them. And... it wasn't done by a guy who could havebeen Einsteins twin brother either.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #21 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 8:39amQuote Modify Split RemoveNiner, Let me ask you this. Are you more interested in the auditoryfeedback you get as a player of an instrument, or are you interested in thesound heard by an audience? These are two fundamentally differenceareas of inquiry. And, will probably lead to very different experiments,matters of science and conclusions.Posts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:Back to topView Profile Email Email WWW141.158.211.202pryorphoneGlobal Moderator(Planners)(Collectors)Researchers(repair)OfflineOboes are best usedforsetting fire tobassoonsRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #22 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 9:24amQuote Modify Split RemoveMy take on this is that design is so complex and the variables sointerrelated that I would be surprised if anyone has gone very far from thetheoretical level in this area. It is much easier to do ad-hoc experimentsand work back through inference than construct a physical model thatactually works... sort of like predicting the weather: narrow probabilities ofobserved events with some theoretical guidance.And through my own experiments, local and house accoustics are verydifferent animals.Posts: 999Wilmington, DEBack to topMichael KellerunPrincipaled Tuba EmeritusThe Delaware Symphony OrchestraView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW72.94.175.237NinerSection LeaderOfflineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #23 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 10:20amQuote Modify Split RemoveI am not particularly interested in this inquiry with whatever the differenceis between what a player hears and what an audience hears when heplays. I'm just interested in what kind of rules a maker may have in mindfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?when making an instrument that will play in a standard recognizable way.Posts: 86AlabamaThere is a guy named Benoit Glazer that seems to be well versed inmodern trumpet design.He starts out saying at his site:Quote:I have been thinking about trumpet design for many years. There are afew things about traditional designs that have always bothered me, andI believe I have solved most of them.First, let me remind you of some laws of physics that apply to us.Sound travels at a constant velocity in a constant medium. And eventhough sound velocity is actually faster in a flared brass instrumentthan it is in the open air at sea level, that velocity is still affected by airdensity and sharp bends in a similar way than it would be in open air. Achange the mediums density changes the velocity, and a change invelocity is a change in pitch. That presents of a few problems in regardsto the sound that travels through the air column of a brass instrument.The real problem is double.http://www.benoitglazer.com/gpage2.htmlI don't know if he knows what he is talking about or not....but what I'minterested in knowing more about is along the lines of what he is sayingabout his designs.I'd think, even in my own admitted ignorance, that a trumpet would bedesigned with a set of mathematical equations that may include suchthings as lengths, diameters, tapers, metal properties, path bends,etc.,with values that can be adjusted as long as the equation is balanced.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlinePosts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:Re: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #24 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 11:51amQuote Modify Split RemoveNiner wrote on Sep 5 th , 2012 at 10:20am:I am not particularly interested in this inquiry with whatever thedifference is between what a player hears and what an audience hearswhen he plays. I'm just interested in what kind of rules a maker mayhave in mind when making an instrument that will play in a standardrecognizable way.But, you see, that is the point.Say you use one set of scientific principles to make the horn sound best tofile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?the player, another set of scientific principles to make the horn sound bestto the audience, another set of principles to make the trumpet sound morecornet like, another set of principles to make the horn easier to play,another set of principles to make the instrument more affordable tomanufacture, etc.And, all of that ignores the issue that even if you rely on that muchscience, there is still a disconnect. Science can only tell you measurablefindings. It can't tell you which are the good findings and the not so goodfindings. The assertions of quality are not made by science.Back to topView Profile Email Email WWW141.158.211.202NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #25 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 12:14pmQuote Modify Split RemoveCertainly there are actual tone differences among a cornet and a trumpetand a flugelhorn and whatever else uses the same valve/key movements toplay the same notes. And there certainly are actual sound differencesbetween like instruments within a discriptive class when made with only ageneral purpose in mind. And makers with skill seek after adjusting theirproducts to produce a desired effect. Yet..... there must be a set ofparameters that make a trumpet a trumpet and a cornet a cornet that donot require that all trumpets or all cornets look alike. And ...they don'tlook all alike as we know as we are interested in "obsure, Antique and OutofProduction Brass Instruments".Back to tophttp://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #26 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 5:49pmYes, but. . .Quote Modify Split RemoveThere are differences between a true trumpet, a modern trumpet, a cornet,a fluglehorn, etc.Posts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:And, there are differences between a tenor horn, a baritone, a euphonium,a tenor tuba, etc.BUT, there no clear dividing lines between each category.And, you can make a baritone sound more euphonium like, by changingmouthpieces. And, I suspect a mouthpiece change on a cornet might makeit sound more fluglehorn like.141.158.211.202file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Back to topkevinMajor ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets, flugeland alto horns, for now.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:View Profile Email Email WWWRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #27 - Sep 5 th , 2012 at 6:43pmQuote Modify Split Removehttp://www.cosmolearning.com/video-lectures/on-trumpet-mouthpiecesand-tone-part...This is worth watching, I'm sure some have seen this series of lectures butfor anyone who hasn't they are great fun and he makes it interesting. Onepoint he makes is that it's not only the mouthpiece and the instrument, butalso the mouthpiece and the player that makes the difference. Mouthpiecesare funny things. Only certain brass have them. As we know the Saxdoesn't. Mouthpieces bring some interesting things to an instrument butalso raise some difficult issues.Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61kevinMajor ContributorOfflineTrumpets, cornets,flugeland alto horns, fornow.Posts: 217Sylvan Lake, Alberta,CanadaGender:Re: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #28 - Yesterday at 10:22amQuote Modify Split RemoveNiner wrote on Sep 5 th , 2012 at 12:14pm:Certainly there are actual tone differences among a cornet and atrumpet and a flugelhorn ..... there must be a set of parameters thatmake a trumpet a trumpet and a cornet a cornet....As Kenton said, there "are" theoretically different parameters that guidethe design of this class but on close inspection of many examples of eachthese guidelines are known to be blurred and indefinite. The cornet issupposed to be more conical than the trumpet. Because there is generallymore length of tubing before the valves, the bells and stems flare morerapidly than on a trumpet.Within the same pitch, the length of tubing on all the crooks is the same orvery close. Flugels shouldn't be included in any comparison of trumpetsand cornets as they belong to a radically different branch of the family. Themodern flugel is more often than not a soprano saxhorn. The originalflugels are scarcely seen today. The French call them Bugles and theItalians the Soprano Flicorno. There is clearly as much confusion in thisfamily of instruments as there is between the trumpet and cornet. At onelevel, the business of design and the instruments themselves representmore a matter of "intent" than anything else. The slight variations in detail,the different mouthpieces and shanks, the expectations of the players andaudience and the differing styles of music all go together to maintain thissupposed divide between the two. The complaint for many years in the mid20th century was that the cornet was being designed to sound more andmore like a trumpet and from the trumpet school, the trumpets werebeginning to sound more and more like cornets. In fact both instrumentswere bowing to public taste and musical fashion and were to a large extentmerging toward one another. There is a joke that says "in the battlebetween the trumpet and the cornet, the cornet won." Trumpet playershate that sort of talk, but in fact, neither won. Both instruments haveevolved along the same lines.If we look at an old Boston 5 star or a Lyon & Healy "Own Make" or justfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?about any cornet made up until the early part of the 20th century, we willfind a completely different instrument than a trumpet. They can hardly bemade to sound alike regardless of mouthpiece selection. This isn't the casetoday. You can put a Rudy Muck 17C on a fairly modern Selmer cornet andthe same piece on a Bach clone trumpet and I don't think many untrainedpeople could tell the diff. Different shanks, lengths and backbores. Thenput say Bach 3Cs on both and they just sound warmer, more mellow butpretty much the same. Get out an old cornet from before WWI and it won'tmatter what mouthpiece you put on it, it will not sound like a trumpet.Sow what in modern design has brought all this to pass? I believe it's amatter of compromise in both designs. People wanted more projectionfrom the cornet but they also wanted the "Fat" sound in a trumpet sothere it is. Basically the same instruments. Different wrap.Certain modern boutique makers are putting the cornet back into it'scorner and making more of a proper little horn out of it than it has beenfor the last 50 years. Cornet (cornette) - little horn as in "horn". Whereasthe name "trumpet" harkens back to the brazen yards of the renaissancecourts. Blaring and shamelessly "out of tune" with the orchestra. Made insmall batches to insure an average pitch, which even then required smallcrooks to bring them together.Back to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message50.93.86.61NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #29 - Yesterday at 11:37amQuote Modify Split RemoveQuote:You can put a Rudy Muck 17C on a fairly modern Selmer cornet and thesame piece on a Bach clone trumpet and I don't think many untrainedpeople could tell the diff. Different shanks, lengths and backbores. Thenput say Bach 3Cs on both and they just sound warmer, more mellowbut pretty much the same. Get out an old cornet from before WWI andit won't matter what mouthpiece you put on it, it will not sound like atrumpetThat's one mans opinion. Given a fair listening test of both hypothicalhorns played one after the other I don't see how anybody with anysensabilty at all couldn't tell the difference. Maybe the mouthpiece shankfor a tumpet is different from that of a cornet for a reason.Besides....even if I agreed with you....this wouldn't have anything to dowith the question I asked to begin with.http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topPages: 1 2 3View Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201Reply Add Topic Notification Add to My Favorites Send Topic Print Mark as Unreadfile:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Horn-u-copia › Contributor's Cafe › Over Coffee ‹ No Topic | Next Topic ›(Moderators: pryorphone, kenton, gsmonks)Remove Move, Split & Splice Lock/Unlock Hide Sticky Remove Selected« Home ‹ Board Top of this page Forum Jump »Horn-u-copia » Powered by YaBB 2.5 AE!YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets2%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:17 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?Sep 7th, 2012 at 12:28pmGood Afternoon kenton,you have 1 message, and nonew messages.Horn-u-copia.net is sponsored byScottOfficeSolutions.comCatalog Library Serial NumbersTradenames Links Search MembersAdmin User CP Help Logout HomeHorn-u-copia › Contributor's Cafe › Over Coffee › Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?(Moderators: pryorphone, kenton, gsmonks) ‹ No Topic | Next Topic ›Pages: 1 2 3Reply Add Topic Notification Add to My Favorites Send Topic Print Mark as UnreadMembers viewing this topic (1): kenton.Theory of design of trumpets and cornets? (Read 220 times)NinerSection LeaderOfflinePosts: 86AlabamaRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #30 - Yesterday at 12:04pmQuote Modify Split RemoveJust to go back to the first observations about differences and what I'mtrying to ask. I'll attach a snapshot of a shelf of cornets. The first two areGrand Rapids cornets from 1924 and 1925 that are identical except thefinish and, with both, the leadpipes attach to the third valve case. Themiddle one is a 1950 Pan American with a different design and the leadpipeattaches to the first valve case. The last is a 59 Olds with the leadpipeattached to the third valve case. Notice the key block on the Olds is placedfurther away from the mouthpiece than the others.All of these sound like cornets and I don't think anybody who is familiarwith the sounds a cornet makes and a trumpet makes would confuse anyof these cornets with a trumpet if played by anybody with any modestdegree of talent.Notice the original mouthpieces on the older horns and then the couple ofOlds mouthpieces on the newer horns. Makes a difference in playing....butnot as much as the difference between a cornet and a trumpet.So...over a lot of years and in a lot of places a lot of somebodies havebeen designing and making a lot of trumpets and cornets with some kindof overall set of rules that aren't clear.... but I'm looking for somebodywho knows enough about what i"m asking that they can put some light onthe subject.file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets3%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:21 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?http://www.6thofthe31st.comhttp://www.Milsurpafterhours.comBack to topView Profile Email Email Personal Message WWW98.230.65.201kentonYaBB AdministratorOnlineRe: Theory of design of trumpets andcornets?Reply #31 - Today at 10:15amQuote Modify Split RemoveNiner wrote on Sep 5 th , 2012 at 10:20am:There is a guy named Benoit Glazer that seems to be well versed inmodern trumpet design.http://www.benoitglazer.com/gpage2.htmlPosts: 5450Punxsutawney, PaGender:file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets3%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:21 PM]

Horn-u-copia - Theory of design of trumpets and cornets?He has a series of 6 videos that are all very interesting.One of the questions that occurred to me as I listened to them, is whetherthe effect of the conical and cylindrical portions of the horn are dependenton the way they are laid out, or whether it is just the cumulative effect ofit all.Some horns are conical until they get to the valve section and are thencylindrical and then return to conical the rest of the way to the bell. Sometrombones are stepped in that they are conical until they get a ways intothe first inner tube where they are cylindrical, then are conical in the slidebow and then return to cylindrical in the second inner tube and then areconical after the slide. Some horns make this progression with relativelynarrow bore profiles,and some do so with much wider profiles.And, is there a relationship between horns that have a good pedal toneand the accuracy of the 5th harmonic?Back to topPages: 1 2 3View Profile Email Email WWW141.158.211.202Reply Add Topic Notification Add to My Favorites Send Topic Print Mark as UnreadHorn-u-copia › Contributor's Cafe › Over Coffee ‹ No Topic | Next Topic ›(Moderators: pryorphone, kenton, gsmonks)Remove Move, Split & Splice Lock/Unlock Hide Sticky Remove Selected« Home ‹ Board Top of this page Forum Jump »Horn-u-copia » Powered by YaBB 2.5 AE!YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.file:///L|/Temp/Horn-u-copia%20-%20Theory%20of%20design%20of%20trumpets%20and%20cornets3%20.htm[9/7/2012 12:29:21 PM]