Exclusive Interview with Shuttle Pilot Robert Crippen

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InternationalQuestion: Does this mean that youare banking on the JET for the industrialrealization of fusion, or are youcounting on the French fusion programto achieve this?Assuming we achieve—when I saywe, I mean maybe the JET program,maybe the American large tokamak,or maybe the Japanese—assumingsomebody achieves scientific breakevenby the end of the decade, thenI believe that before a significantamount of energy is produced fromfusion, we will probably have to wait20 to 30 years for industrial realization.There will still be all the engineeringand industrial development side. Andfusion, like all energy, is capital intensive.An interesting point is that thelower the fuel costs—the recurringcosts—of an energy producing system,the higher its capital costs. Whena new source of energy becomes economicallycompetitive, the sum of theamortization of the capital investmentplus the recurring costs are, by definition,equal to those combined costsfor all other sources of energy. So ifan energy source has a lower fuelreplacement cost, it obviously has ahigher investment cost. And thatmeans we are limited by the availabilityof capital. This is true for all newenergy sources, and it will be true forfusion, too.Between the point of scientificbreakeven and a real fusion-basedindustry, probably 20 or 25 years willgo by. The question of industrial developmentof fusion will arise only in1990, and it is at that time that theproblem will become urgent.How we will do it at that time, Idon't know.Question: What can you tell us aboutthe breakthroughs achieved in fusionby the Ecole Polytechnique team?By the way, the Ecole is not uniquein its line of research; there is a teamworking on the same line at the Universityof Rochester. The general ideathey are researching is that if we workat a shorter wavelength for inertialconfinement with laser light compression,the light is absorbed essentiallyin the area of the plasma density suchEDFFrench Embassy Press and Information DivisionAn aerial view of the 750,000-kilowatt nuclear power station at Chinon, France.With the change in government, a question mark now hangs over France'sambitious nuclear and R&D programs. Inset: Pierre Aigrain, state secretary forresearch in the Ciscard government.that the plasma frequency is close tothe wavelength. And if the wavelengthis shorter, then the higher densityregions and the mean free pathof fast electrons are smaller; there isa smaller proportion of fast electronsmoving to the center of target andpreheating the target—something thescientists would like to avoid—so apparentlybetter compression characteristicsare achieved by working withshorter wavelengths.If confirmed by further studies, thiswork could change the order of magnitudeof energy required for inertialconfinement.It also means that the kind of laserneeded would presumably not be thesame. This ultraviolet light can be producedby quadrupling the frequencyof the 1.06 micron neodymium glasslaser. But it's obvious that if what iswanted is the ultraviolet light, lookingat ultraviolet lasers like Eximer lasers,krypton-fluoride lasers, and thingslike that may be a better solution. Sothe Ecole's work may have an influenceon the kind of lasers that wehave to develop.Question: U.S.-European cooperationreceived a major blow with the cancellationof the joint NASA-ESA SolarPolar Mission. Do you see any hopefor reviving this program?I would hope that possibly otherprojects could be started in cooperationwith the United States in this areaof basic science.Question: Perhaps with the success ofthe Columbia Space Shuttle there willbe a new wave of support from theU.S. side?We can hope that Congress willgive more money to NASA and that52 FUSION August 1981 International
ENJOY WIM &7 ITS MSfNASA will be able to start either thesame project or a new project.Question: Some institutions, for examplethe Club of Rome, claim thatwe have entered the postindustrialsociety. Do you think this is true?I think that it's partially true, if whatis meant is that new types of services—whichby the way are stronglytechnology dependent—such as thestoring, processing, and treatment ofinformation are an increasing share ofGNP and are going to go on increasing.And if you call a society in whichthe share of those services has becomelarge and may become a majority,then it's true that we are movingtoward a postindustrial society.The point I would like to make isthat this kind of postindustrial societyis a big user of science and technology.Second, it is obvious that such asociety exists only if the industrialhardware part of the system is there,too. The cost of that hardware, theproportion of that hardware in GNP,may be small and may even be decreasing,but it is essential. If it is notthere, the rest is not there.For the same reason, the number ofpeople involved in primary agriculturein the developed countries hasbeen going down. But that doesn'tmean food production is going down.Fortunately, food production hasbeen going up, and I believe thatindustrial production will be going upin terms of included R&D.So it's true, we have entered thepostindustrial society, but in the postindustrialsociety the role of industryis enormous!Question: Does this mean that thereare two definitions of the postindustrialsociety—the one that you havejust given and the one put forward bythe environmentalist movement, forexample?That's not the postindustrial society.That's the preindustrial and, to someextent, the precivilization society. Ihope this is not the way we are moving.I don't believe we should have asociety that is a combination of stoneage economics plus philosophical discussions.IVew aijd unique wii?e bucketdfills wipe without iceaijd will keep it for 5 Ijours atits iqost eiyoyable tenjperature.This remarkable improvement on the traditional winebucket — called the Glacierware Wine Chiller — not only chillsin 10 minutes without any ice whatsoever but will keep awine chilled and at its most enjoyable temperature for aslong as 5 hours.So why keep your wines in the refrigerator — where theymust be stored vertically? You can chill them right at thetable when you de-cork them to let them "breathe".No more wet, drippy bottles, and the label alwaysremains dry and in place. A welcome addition to your winecellar, the Glacierware Wine Chiller is available in Burgundy,Ebony and Wedgewood Blue at only $24.95.International
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Page 51 and 52: WashingtonLittle ProgressOn Fusion
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