Howard Herron Memoir - University of Illinois Springfield

University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Howard Herron Memoir
H436. Herron, Howard (1897-1986)
Interview and memoir
5 tapes, 450 mins., 2 vols., 108 pp.
Herron, long-time resident and businessman in Auburn, Illinois, discusses early
20th century home and social life in Auburn: his family history, cooking and
home remedies, housework, rural education, courtship and marriage, social
events, entertainment, immigrants, Auburn businesses, the Great Depression and
WPA activities, electricity and early radio, and activities of the Ku Klux Klan. He
also recalls the business district fire of 1910 and fire protection, WWI, 1918
influenza epidemic, Pearl Harbor and the WWII homefront. He discusses his
careers: farming, horse racing, real estate, ownership of an automobile dealership,
and coal mining. He recalls coal mining union activities, violence between the
PMA and the UMW, and black lung disease.
Interview by Shirley Marshall, 1980
OPEN
See collateral file: interviewer's notes, photocopies of automobile advertisements,
photographs of Herron and his family, scrip issued during the Depression by the
Springfield Credit Clearing Committee, and a 1942 automobile price list.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1980 University of Illinois Board of Trustees

Preface
This manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded interview conducted
by Shirley Marshall for the Oral History Office, Sangamon State
Universlty in November of 1980. Shirley Marshall transcribed and edited
the transcript. Mr. Herron reviewed the transcript.
Howard Herron was born in Batchtown, Calhoun County, Illinois in 1897 into
a miner's family. The family moved to Auburn, Sangamon County, Illinois
when Howard was about six years of age. Except for a twenty-two month
tour in the navy, Howard has spent the rest of his life in Auburn.
Howard's many occupations include being a jockey, a car salesman then
owner of the Chevrolet dealership, a real estate broker, a coal miner
and a farm worker.
~oward's recollections include commentary on early Auburn businesses,
schools, WPA and PWA activities in Auburn, and early home and social
life. He provides eyewitness testimony to the 1910 fire that destroyed
the business district of the city and also describes the 1911 cyclone.
This interview was conducted in his mobile home which is located next to the
American Legion Home in Auburn.
Shirley Marshall is public librarian in Auburn and is beginning a
collection of oral histories of Auburn to be housed in the Auburn
Public Library.
Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a
transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and
editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is
inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not
responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views
expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be
reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical,
without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon
State University, Springfield, Illinois 62708.

Table of Contents (cont.)
Auburn Business District Fire of 1910 .............. 54
Spurlock-James Shooting ..................... 56
Progressive Mine Workers of America ............... 56
Pearl Harbor Announcement .................... 57
Establishing Real Estate Business ................ 58
Pasniks-Brendle Shooting .................... 60
Formation of the REA and PWA .................. 60
Announcement of F?)R's Death ................... 61
Ms . Lanham and School Days ................... 62
Automabile Dealership Franchise ................. 64
Social Events in Auburn ..................... 66
World War I1 Homefront Efforts ................ -70
Observations on Vietnam War ................... 75
Ku Klux Klan in Auburn ..................... 76
Electricity ..........................-80
Home and Social Life in Auburn ................. 82
EarlyRadio ........................... 85
Reflections on Childhood ................... -88
Dr . Malmgren. Mayor of Auburn .................. 90
Parks Home ........................... 90
Reflections on Present Life ................... 92
Governor Horner Anecdote .................... 94
Coal Mining Days ........................ 96
Faust's Slaughter House ..................... 96
Frank Halford. J . P ....................... 96
Chautauqua ........................... 96
Traveling Carnivals ...................... -98
Saloons and Prohibition .................... 100

Howard Herron, October 28, 1980, Auburn, Illinois.
Shirley Marshall, Interviewer.
Good morning, Howard.
Good morning.
Howard, when and where were you born?
I was born in Batchtown, Illinois.
And on what day?
On March 28, 1897.
Who were your parents?
Thomas J. Herron, or no, Thomas Herron and Sarah Elizabeth Berron.
Can you tell me something about your father's side of the family?
Yes, my father's father and my grandfather came down the Ohio River
to Cairo and then they came up the river to Calhoun County and there they
located and went into the horticulture business of raising apples and
there they lived and died.
Q: What nationality were they?
A: Irish and English. My father and grandfather were Irish and my
mother and grandmother was English.
Q: Do you remember your grandmother's maiden name?
A: No, I don't, never knew that.
Q: Did they come over from the Old Country?
A: I don't know that.
Q: But they did have an apple business?
A: They had orchards, they planted the trees and raised orchards. Built
a log house they lived in. They were pioneers in those days.
Q: What kind of boat did they come down the Ohio River in?

Howard Berron 2
A: I wouldn't know that. I didn't hear. All I remember is them
telling me about how they came down the river. My uncles told me.
Q: How many children did your grandparents have?
A: They had two boys, John and William.
Q: Were there any girls?
A: No, no girls.
Q: Two boys?
A: Two boys.
Q: One of them had to be your father?
A: Yes. No, one of them was my uncle. Oh, yes, this is my father's
side you are talking about.
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, yes, one of them was my father. Oh, I was wrong there because
there was eight boys and one girl.
Q: Eight boys and one girl.
A: On my father's, I was thinking on my mother's side.
Q: Okay. So John and William are uncles on your mother's side?
A: Yes, on my mother's side. There was Tom and Tim, they were twins,
that was my father, Tom was my father and Tim, his twin brother. And
there was Fulton and he was struck by Lightning while plowing in the
field and there was Tom, Tim, Fulton, John, Simon, Sylvester; how many we
got there?
Q: Six, six boys so far. You said there were eight boys.
A: Scott, I can't think of the other one.
Q: Who was the girl?
A: Dora, D-o-r-a.
Q: Do you remember any of these uncles or your aunt?
A: Oh, yes, they always had family reunions I remember going to. My
Uncle John moved here before we did.
Q: To Auburn?
A: Yes, he was an engineer at the mine, coal mine.

Howard Herron 3
Q: I see.
A: And he got my uncles and my father to come up here looking for
greener pastures and he came and my uncle got him a job at the mine.
Q: Oh, your father worked in the mine?
A: On top, he was into firing the boilers. Made the steam that hoisted
the coal.
Q: And your mother's side of the family. Do you remember anything about
them?
A: They were Surgeons, Surgeon was the name for them. They also were
pioneers, but I don't know how they got here or where but there was just
two boys, John--William and John.
Q: And your mother?
A: And my mother and her sister, Maggie and a sister Madie.
Q: And a sister?
Q: Madie?
Q: And your mother's name is?
A: Sarah Elizabeth.
Q: What nationality were they?
A: They were Irish, Scotch Irish.
Q: And do you know whether they came over from the Old Country?
A: No, I don't know. I know my uncles always were so proud of the Irish
but I didn't care much about it. Didn't pay much attention to it. My
Uncle Bill was always proud of being an Irish.
Q: What kind of religion did they have?
A: Protestant.
Q: On both sides of your family, Protestant, okay. When were you born
again, 18901
A: Eighteen hundred ninety-seven, March 28, 1897.
Q: March 28?

Howard Hexron 4
A: Eighteen hundred ninety-seven.
Q: Yes.
A: Eighty-three years old now. I'll be 84 this coming March.
Q: Was your father in Auburn at the time that he met your mother?
A: No, they were all, I remember them telling me, us boys, the stories
when they, my father and his brothers, two or three of them would put in
the crops, help their father put in the crops. They'd get their horses
ready and they would take off for Kansas and they were cowboys. They
would meet--I remember them going into Dodge City, I'm talking about
Dodge City where they would have a cattle drive and drive their cattle
from Texas up to Dodge City where they had--there was no railroads then.
I can remember that they would swim their horses across the Mississippi
River and they would always be sure that they took a title for their
horse because if you didn't have a title to your horse and they caught
you with a horse, they would string you up on a tree.
Q: Oh, dear.
A: Oh, that was the days they did that to stop the thieving and stealing
of horses. That's the way they told that to me. we'd sit around and eat
popcorn and they'd eat half of it and they'd tell us all their experiences.
That was all the entertainment we had in the wintertime.
Q: What was Dodge City like in those days?
A: Oh, I wouldn't know.
Q: Did they tell about any barroom fights or any shootouts or anything
like that?
A: Oh, I suppose they did but they didn't tell us.
Q: Did they meet any famous sheriff?
A: Well, I remember one time they was, word got out that in Hamburg,
Illinois that Jesse James amd his gang were there and that they were
going to head south, just north of my aunt's house, my Aunt Maggie's.
There was a road there going from their home to what they called Red's
Landing on the Mississippi River to a big cutaway in the road and a big
bank on each side. Several of Charlie ~c~ab's boys and a lot of them got
up on this bank and they were laying for Jesse James. And they all had
their guns and they was ready to kill him, but they all got chicken and
they didn't, none of them would shoot. So Jesse James and his gang
passed on and went an around to Red's Landing, that's on the Mississippi
River. And there was a poor guy that lived along the--he was a River Rat
you might say that lived on there and he never had anything. But he took
his boat and he hauled the James boys across the river and they swam
their horses across. And from that time on this man and his wife and
family had all the clothes and food and everything they ever wanted. I

Howard Herron 5
guess Jesse James wanted to make it right with them, that they didn't
have to depend on anybody after that. This McNab told me that story and
I know he used to work in a grocery store here when they moved up here to
Auburn fr>om Hamburg. And they just didn't get them all right then, that
they'd get them, so they just, none of them would do the job.
Q: But he actually did see Jesse James?
A: Yes, he told me several times the same story and I know it was true
because every time he told the story the same time, three times, you know
it was right and he was telling the truth because you can't remember how
you tell it.
Q: That's good. So your uncles were cowboys, farmers . . .
A: My uncles and my father.
Q: Your father was also a cowboy?
A: Yes, when they wanted food they would just go out and kill ducks or
rabbits or anything, Their log cabin is still right there, still on
Birds' farm where they were born and raised.
Q: Is that right?
A: Still stands there.
Q: Isn't that close to here?
A: Oh, yes. Down here just south of Hamburg, Illinois. Right next to,
our family cemetery is there too.
Q: Is
that where most of your family is buried?
A: We 11, not most, I wouldn't say most but there is quite a few buried
there, cause as they grew older they scattered. They were like quail you
know.
Q: But you did get together and have family reunions?
A: Oh, yes, we do, we have one every year. Had a Herron family reunion,
was held here the first Sunday in October and there was about forty some
here.
Q: Do you still do that?
A: Oh, yes and there was some from Detroit, Chicago, Centralia and they
come from all over.
Q: What are some of the things that the people grew up to do?
A: Oh, getting back to my Grandfather Herron, his sister was the second
wife of President Howard William Taft. She was the second wife of his
and she was, now this is, I'm quoting family history they have and I know

Howard Herron 6
b-
it's a fact because when Governor Green was inaugurated, he was governor
of the State of Illinois, they had the governors of all the states invited
to the inauguration and they was to wear the dress in the olden times.
And my father's, my grandfather's sister, she wore the, the governor's
wife of Ohio if I can get it right, wore the same dress that Emily Herron
Taft wore when she wore that gown to the inauguration of Governor Green.
Q: That's interesting. Do you have pictures of those?
A: No, I don't. No, all that was just history traced back. We have a
historian. I got a cousin that used to be a school teacher. She got all
this stuff.
Q: Well, that's very good.
A: They have to read most of this a time or two. hat's where I got
this. She read this at the reunion.
Q: That's interesting. Was there anyone else in your family that was
important?
A: No, no. I was the first Chevrolet dealer in Auburn.
Q: Where was your Chevrolet Company?
A: Right, I started that business right over there.
Q: That's Fifth and Adams?
A: First day of August, first day of October, 1926, I started the
Chevrolet business.
Q: How did you get into that business?
A: Well, I used to work in the coal mine, and my mother was sick, and I
quit school, and I went to work in the coal mine to help my father pay
the doctor bills and my mother, then she died.
Q: How old were you then?
A: I was about, she died on the 17th of December, 1917, now when she
died I volunteered to join the navy. I figured well, I was working in
the coal mine in Divernon and I moved back over here and so I said to the
boys up there after the War was over I went through the navy all during
the War and then when I got discharged I didn't go back to the coal mine.
I was sitting in the barber shop and I said to Bill Hooks, the barber,
"I'm going over here and get a job selling Fords," and he said, "You
can't even run one, how are you going to get a job?" I said, "I can learn."
Finally I went over and I shook hands and I shook hands with Mr. Latham
and I said, he just purchased this agency, chis Ford Agency, and I said,
"I always thought you needed a good salesman." He said, "What makes you
think we need a good salesman?" I said, "Well, I looked around here and
I don't see, I see a lot a sharp cars and tractors around here and nobody
taking them away from you," and he said, "I'm going to give you a job just

Howard Herron 7
on account of your guts." So I took a job selling Fords, $25 guaranteed
and 3 percent override commission and what I wanted was to get him to
furnish me with a car. I couldn't buy a car, coal miners' salaries
didn't pay enough and anyway I gave all my money to my dad to help pay
the bills. I was wanting that job so I could have something to ride the
girls with so I got him to furnish me a car. And he said, "When do you
want to start?" I said, "Well, Mr. Latham, I don' t know how to run one."
He said, "What? You want a job selling them and don't even know how to
run one?" I said, "1 can learn." He said, "Wally." Wally Fleming was a
mechanic and he said, "Take this guy out and teach him, get one of those
old cars out there and show him the road and head him north out of town,
so he can learn to drive." I never will forget the roads were dusty, or
frozen, they weren't dusty, they were just frozen and horse tracks and
just as raugh as they could be. I stayed with it and you didn't have to
know very much to learn how to drive a Ford car. And so I went on and
that was in January.
Q: How old were you then?
A: I was about 21 and so he said one day, "Where's all these automobiles
you said you were going to sell?" I said, "1'11 get 'em, 1'11 get 'em."
I said, "What I need is I need a new car," they gave me an old car. I
said, "What I need is a new car so I can create a little attention like
when I go into a town like Glenarm, Divernon or Thayer." And so he
said, "What do you want?" I said, "Give me a new touring car. I can
haul a lot of girls in that." (laughs) So he started out and I said,
"1'11 show you one of these days," and I had a lot of them lined up. See in
them days we had to wait on your turn to get one and so I started out on
the road, the weather got nice, the farmers all drove the roads. I
started out to Glenarm, I had a deposit on a car they were trying to buy.
For $450 you could buy a Ford car then and I got a $25 deposit on one
there and I went to Divernon and I got one there, and I went to Thayer
and I got two. I come in and I had a $100 deposit on four automobiles.
The old man said, "BY God, you can sell cars," and so 3: went right then
and I stayed with them until--that was about 1922. In 1926 I began to
lose sales to Chevrolet and I said, "Somebody is going to come in here
with Chevrolets and it might as well be me." So I went to the banker and
I had these fingers mashed off over there in the garage and the insurance
company gave me $750. 1 had my car, a demonstrator, 1 hadn't paid on
that in about a month. I owned it myself and so T went to the banker
here. My uncle used to be president of the bank, Simon Herron, and he
was also supervisor and a member of the high school board and he didn't
like it. He lived on a farm out here. So he give up the presidency of
the bank to Mr. Stockdale. I told him, I said, "Chevrolet, General
Motors is going to have a big meeting in St. Louis and I can get down
there and get that franchise from Chevsolet for this city." And he said,
"Well, that's a good thing. Auburn needs something like that." I said,
"Well, I don't have very much money." He said, "How much money you got?"
I said, "$750 and I got enough money to buy Grant out, Grant Tire
Company there, the stock that they had." So he said, "Here's the checkbook,
go down there and get you a carload of cars and give them the check just
like you have the money." And he said, "When you come back give us the
number of the cars and then when you sell them come in and pay it off ."
I said, "Okay." So I did and I got the contract, the franchise, and I

Howard Herron 8
started in and I had $750 invested. And I didn't more than get
started than my wife, she, in the meantime, and I got married too, and
she come home that evening and she was crying. And I said, "What you
crying about?" She said she went to a Sunday School class party and she
said, "Everybody says you're going to go broke," I said, "I got some
news for you, I'm broke to start with." And I said, "Don't let that
worry your little pretty head at all, cause I'm broke now. It's either
got to go or else." So I kept it two years and Chevrolet wanted me to
put in their system of bookkeeping and a monthly report of my entire
business and everything. And they also wanted to own you, so I wouldn't
stand for that and I told them, "You get me a fellow that will buy this
place. I'd like to have a bigger place." I said, "I've been selling
automobiles four years now. I got enemies and I've got friends. I'd
like to have a bigger agency." So they said all right and I sold it out
for $8,000. I started out with $750 and sold it for $8,000. So they
said, "Well, go over to Hoopeston, Illinois." Well, I went over there
and I didn't like it and I said, "No, Hoopeston's a canning factory over
there." I said to the hotel manager, "This town looks like a pretty good
business town." I said, "How's this Chevrolet dealer doing here?" He
said, "Oh, he's no good, he sells them Chevrolets and says anything goes
wrong with them, and they need fixing," he says, "go on and fix it yourself."
The dealer says, "What do you think you're getting here, Cadillac?" He
says, "Go fix it yourself." So then I came back and this hotel manager
said, "Right now things are pretty good here. When the canning season's
over you couldn't raise a dog fight out here in the streets." I said,
"Well, that's enough for me." I come back and so Mr. Non, he called me
up and said, "We got a place for you now, what do you think of it?" And
I said, "No good." I didn't like it. See, I said if you find a place
that I like, I didn't like it. We couldn't get along at all. The
telegraph, the telephone operator was a good friend of mine and she
called me and she said, "I'm going to let you in on something.'' She
said, "I overheard the talk," she was piking. She said, "Mr. Non told
the branch manager, road manager here, whatever you do, sell that contract
to Herron. Get him back in that business." So I took that and I said,
"Well you have to change the rules a little bit. You can't dictate to
Chevrolet Motor Company." I said, "Well, they can't dictate to me either.
I'm a member of the Chamber of Commerce. In fact I'm secretary of the
Chamber of Commerce here. I belong to the church and I went to the
schools here. I'm bigger in Auburn than they are. They are bigger than
I am in Detroit but not here." He said, "Well, you're kind of independent,
ain't you?" And I said, "Well, I hope to be all my life, independent and
I don't have to be some servant to anybody.'' Well, that was the end of
that.
Q: Howard, I would like to ask you some questions about when you were a
little boy and what you can remember about your mother and your father.
What was the home like when you were a little boy?
A: Well, we always had a pleasant home. My father was a good man and so
was my mother, a good woman, and I remember the first home I remember was
in Batchtown, Illinois. We lived, my father bought what you call, used
to call the creamery, had a creamery, made cheese and stuff there. And
so they went out of business and my father bought that and he changed it
into a home, fixed it into a home, and it was a nice home. There's where

Howard Herron 9
I remember starting to school, I went to school, that was the first time
I went to school. Right by my house was a big ravine and my father used
to set traps out there and I seen my first skunk out there. I went to
school there the first year and then the next year we moved to Auburn.
Q: Well, back there in that home, can you remember what the kitchen
looked like?
A: No, I don' t.
Q: A cook stove?
A: Oh, they had a wood stove, everything was wood.
Q: Did you have to help carry the wood?
A: Oh, yes, my brother was older than I was, and he would chop it, and I
would carry it, and we would cart it up under a big ravine that sat on
the east side and on the west side was where we would put wood in under
the house to keep it out of the snow. We carried this wood up as we
needed it. I remember my father. In those days, they were young people
and they had a dance, and my father, I know, I remember them talking
about it. I guess I had gone to bed or they had put me to bed and it
wound up a big free-for-all fight. The Beeves boys, 1 remember him
telling about it, the Reeves boys came down there and they were going to
break up the dance and it wound up in a fight. My father had on a coat
and a vest and one of them cut him with a razor, he cut right down and it
didn't go through the vest. They played rough in them days, very crude
as I found out later as I got older. Then we moved to Auburn.
Q: Well, how old was your mother and your father when they married?
A: I wouldn't know, I never did know.
Q: They never said? How many children did they have?
A: Well, there was three boys and one girl and my little sister died
with pneumonia. I never did remember her. But I heard them tell about
her. She died of pneumonia.
Q: Were your brothers both older than you?
A: No, my oldest brother, Cecil, run a cafe here in town until he died.
And my youngest brother died in 1960 something.
Q: And what was his name?
A: Paul, his name was Paul. Cecil was my oldest, and Howard is mine.
Q: Did Paul live here in Auburn too and what did he do?
A: Well, he worked in the coal mine and when the coal mine shut down,
why he worked for me in the garage, ran the gas pumps and things like
that.

Howard Herron 10
Q: When you were a very small boy before you went to school, what are
some of the remembrances that you had. What are some things that you did
in the summertime?
A: Oh, when we lived here?
Q: No, when, before you went to school.
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Did you go swimming at any ponds or fishing?
A: Now there was no water around there, only the Mississippi River was
about three miles from Batchtown, maybe four but we just used to always
go out with mother and we'd go take buckets and we'd go out and pick
blackberries. And I remember that the snakes would get up and lay in the
top in those bushes, in the blackberry bushes because when the birds
would come to get the berries, the snakes would grab them birds and eat
the birds. I remember we would get chiggers all over us and so we'd get
home and we had a summer kitchen.
Q: What's a summer kitchen?
A. Well, that's a place where mother washed. They had a wood stove out
there and a boiler and they'd heat the water and have a wash machine you
cranked by hand and they, I think she baked some in there too, if I'm
right.
Q: Was it screened in?
A: Yes.
Q: To keep cool?
A: Oh, yes, it was, the walls inside were just 2 x 4's and that was what
we called a summer kitchen. They used to cook out there a lot of times
in the summertime. I remember we played marbles out there on the floor
and my mother, oh, she was a wonderful cook, and she could make candy
that would melt in your mouth. Pease's don't make any chocolates any
better than she could. And she would hide that candy and we knew when we
come home we could smell that she'd been making candy that day. And we
would play marbles in the summer kitchen in the fall of the year. And so
my brother, I don't know what made him do it, lifted the lid of the
washing machine and they found a big batch of the candy and he said, "I
found it boys, I found it." I remember one time when we were picking
blackberries and came home and the church, I forget what church it was, I
think it was the Methodist Church, it was about two blocks or a block and
a half, maybe a block or a block and a half from us. And there was a
hallway or a breezeway between the summer kitchen and the house and
lightning struck there and it carried over and it knocked my mother down.
It didn't hurt her, it just knocked her down and apparently she wasn't
hurt, but we were all excited over that, of course. But getting back to
these chiggers. We'd get chiggers all over us out in these blackberries,
oh, they'd grow wild out in the country, great big beauties. And mother,

Howard Herron 11
she'd get a rag, a coal oil rag, and she'd make us boys strip off and
she'd take this rag and just rub it all over us and then take a bath.
The kerosene would kill the chiggers. Did you ever get chiggers?
Q: Yes.
A: You know what they
are.
Q: Terrible.
A: Itch. That's how they got rid of the chiggers.
Q: So you probably remember her blackberry pies. Was that one of your
favorite things that she fixed for you?
A: Oh, yes, she was--we belonged to the Methodist Church and she
belonged to the Ladies Aid Society and whenever they had a cookout or a
bazaar or whatever you call it, and my mother's bread was always spoken
for before she got it there, because she could make good bread. I
remember we would come home and we'd smell that chili sauce cooking and
I'd want the heel of the bread and some chili sauce on it. It'd make you
want to fight your father when you smelled that chili sauce cooking.
Q: What were your favorite meals that she fixed?
A: Oh, she'd fix everything. We had plenty of meat. We raised hogs.
We had a pen that had three, four or five hogs in it, my father would
butcher those hogs and we had a smokehouse-like and put that meat in this
and cure it, smoke it with hickory and sassafras, hickory wood, sassafras
and some other kind of wood.
Q: Where do you get sassafras?
A: Out in the timbers.
Q: Is it a tree or a root or what is it?
A: It's a tree, a little tree, shrubbery, and you pull up the roots, cut
off the roots and you boil that and every spring we always had to have
our sassafras tea and sulfur.
Q: And sulfur? What was the sulfur for?
A: Oh, I don't know, they said--and acifidity. Did you ever smell
acifidity?
Q: I never heard of it.
A: Acifidity. She used to make little bags of it. If you ever smelled
it, you wouldn't want it. She'd make little bags and string around us
with a chunk of acifidity. It's a gum-like stuff and if you hang it
around your neck, it's supposed to keep you from getting sick. Old
maid's tales. And then my dad, he'd make everyone of us wear one of
those and oh, I used to hate him when he gave us that acifidity and every

Howard Herron 12
kid in school had to have it. That was an old witch's tale, that's about
all it was. If nothing, the smell would keep everything away, animals
and all. It was terrible. (laughs)
Q: Was your father a farmer?
A: No, he was a barber. He was a jack of all trades. He was a barber.
He come up here, my uncle got him a job as a fireman of the boilers, but
way later on he owned some thrash machines. As I got older and my brother
got older, we had to take the wagon and the team and we'd haul the water
tank for the engine and he had a separator and a clover hauler.
Q: A clover hauler?
A: Yes, it took the seed out of clover and the hay, just like you would
wheat or oats. You've seen thrashers, haven't you?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, a clover hauler is just like a thrasher. It's the same thing
as a separator only for finer seeds. And he would do custom work for
farmers, thrash their wheat and then in the wintertime, well, he was a
barber.
Q: I see.
A: He was a good provider.
Q: What kind of hair cuts did he give in those days?
A: Just like I got today. They didn't have whiskers. My son's hair,
it's like Abe Lincoln's. I started growing a moustache one day and I
said this ain't for me. It's so easy to cut off and you have to trim
them and everything. His wife trimmed his beard for him and everything
and I said, "Give me the razor." They had a Gillette razor. I shaved
today, I generally shave everyday.
Q: Did your father have a moustache?
A: Yes, he'd come home from that coal mine and the dust was in it and
his breath would freeze from that ice and he'd (sniff) spit it out and it
was enough to gag a pig.
Q: Did they have chickens too?
A: Oh, yes, we had chicken pen.
Q: Did you raise your own vegetables?
A: Yes, we had our own garden.
Q: You probably had to do quite a bit of work around the house.

Howard Berron 13
A: I'll never forget as long as I live when we moved to Auburn they were
having a big carnival and picnic at Virden on the 4th of July. We had a
sweet potato ridge farther from here to your--there was three of them, a
ridge for each one of us boys as long as from here to your car out there
was in garden. And Dad said, "Now boys, you clean all those weeds out of
those sweet potatoes, 1'11 give you a dollar apiece and you can go over
to Virden to the picnic." Well, we could go to Virden for a nickel.
Then when we got down to Virden we'd have $.go to spend, nickel down and
a nickel back and we just worked like Trojans that day to get that done.
And about 11:OO boom, boom, boom, the thunder started coming and by this
time we got done and here she come. It rained and it rained like a
torrent and he said, "Oh, boys, better stay home today and guess we can
go over some other day," and that about fixed me. That was one of my
first disappointments. I hated that day as long as I lived. I hated
Minnie Christensen, too. When I started to school here I had to go in
the second grade and my school teacher was Minnie Christensen and she
asked me my name and I told her Howard William Herron. Well, she didn't
put dawn the Howard and so she said, "William, William," and I looked
around for William and I didn't see William and finally she said,"Youl'
and "Aren't you William?" And L said, "No, Ma'am, I'm Howard." And she
had me come up right in front of the class and she had a paddle about
that long and about that wide and a hand on it and boy she spanked my
butt with that thing right in front of everybody. And I hated her guts
till she died. I was right, she didn't write it down, see and so she
never apologized and I never did either and so that's the way it stood.
I said, "You put down Howard William Herron, that's my name." I said,
"That's what I told you." And she said, "I whipped you for lying to me."
And I said, "I didn't lie to you." And she said, "Yes, you did, I'll
whip you again if you don't think you did." So I just shut up, I saw I
couldn't win. So I just hated her guts from that time on. But I had a
fine teacher, she's living today. She's over a hundred years old, Eva
Hedrick, and she taught me more in school than anybody. And she was a
fine woman and up till this day every year I take a big bouquet of
flowers to her and have as Long as I can remember.
Q: That's wonderful.
A: And one day she said, I was running a movie picture machine for the
theater here and I was staying up late till 11:OO and sometimes it was
midnight before I'd get home. And she told my dad that he ought to make
me quit. She had an interest in me. She was my Sunday School teacher
too and she said, "You stay after school." I said, "Oh, my God, what
have I done now?" In them days we had to line up and you had to walk
clear out and stay in Line till you got outside. You didn't just run out
haphazardly across the yard or anything and there was a teacher that
stood there and watched you until you all got out and you didn't get out
of line. And anyway I said, "What have I done now?" And so, she came
back in and she said, "Get over," I slid over and she sat down beside me
and she said, "Get out your arithmetic." And I did and she says, "Now,
Howard, you're just as smart as the rest of these children. Why can't
you paper a room?" And I said, "I don't know, I just can't do it right."
And she explained it all to me and we went all through it and everything
and you know it was just like a boil. It come to a head and I got the
knack of it and I didn't have no trouble from that time on, and I've

Howard Herron 14
always been grateful to her for that. And here I thought I was going to
get spanked for something I had done wrong, and she just wanted to help
me and I never will forget her, and to this day she is still living.
Q: What was your school like?
A: Oh, it's all torn down. There was two rooms. One was the first
grade and the second grade in the old building. There was eight rooms,
four rooms on the first floor with a great big stairway, upstairs, front
and back, and there was four rooms upstairs. High school was upstairs
and well the two rooms upstairs, the third and fourth, fifth, sixth and
seventh grades were on the four rooms on the first floor and two rooms on
the second floor and the other two was the high school. Of course that
was back in 1900, 4, 5, 6, along in there and . . .
Q: Where was the school located?
A: Right down where it is now. That was all playground. We used to
play there.
Q: Where did you live at that time?
A: I lived in the west end of town up here. And my father, when we came
here, he bought the house where Bill Coker lives now and I guess he could
get $20,000 for it now. My father bought that house for $750 brand new,
nobody ever lived in it when we came to Auburn in 1904, he bought that
house for $750.
Q: Where is that located now?
A: It's on, I'll have to get the telephone book here to find the street.
Q: That was on West Monroe Street. So you walked to school?
A: Yes, we had to walk to school rain, sleet, snow or what. I sure
walked up there and old John Richler was the janitor and they wouldn't
let us bring our lunch regardless and the school board upheld it.
End of Tape One, Side One
Q: Good evening, Howard. Let's talk about some times when you were a
kid again and you told me what you did in the summertime, but what are
some of the things that you can remember that you did in the fall?
A: Well, we gathered nuts and, of course, we had on Halloween, we had
pumpkins and we, of course, we always had cows and we had a big pumpkin
patch and cut the pumpkins up to feed the cows.
Q: You did?
A: Oh, yes, they'd eat the pumpkins, the cows would eat the pumpkins.
We cut them in small chunks. They loved those pumpkins.

Howard Hezron 15
Q: Didn't your mother make pumpkin pie out of them?
A: Oh, yes, she made pumpkin pies. She was a wonderful cook until she
got sick and . . .
Q: Did you make jack-o-lanterns?
A: No, no, my uncles, after my Grandfather Surgeon died, my two uncles,
they kept or stayed on the farm and the apple orchards they run them.
They would come to Batchtown with a big wagon on Thanksgiving Day and on
weekends and they'd get mother and us boys and they would always want us
to go out there with them because they had an old elderly woman that kind
of cooked for them. She always smoked, old Mrs. Powell was her name, and
she always smoked a clay pipe and I remember that real well. And my
Uncle John, my Uncle W i l l had an organ and he played the organ and so . . .
Q: You said you went out there on a wagon?
A: They'd come into town with a big wagon and get us to go out. And
they always wanted my mother to come out and stay the weekends and do a
lot of the cooking for them because this old lady Powell wasn't much of a
cook. And so they would keep us out there, get us to stay, they'd
entertain us, they'd do anything to get us to stay out there with them.
Q: This wagon was pulled by a horse?
A: Yes, two horses.
Q: Two horses?
A: Yes, it was just an ordinary wagon that had the spring seats. On
Thanksgiving Day we either had a goose for Thanksgiving or a goose for
Christmas. My mother always had one of the two. We had a goose for
Thanksgiving or so that she could get the goose grease and she would mix
that goose grease with turpentine and camphor and grease our chests when
we had colds. And that was . . .did I tell you about the acifidity?
Q: Yes, you did. So she made up medicines, some home remedies?
A: Home remedies.
Q: Did you raise geese at your farm?
A: My uncles did, but we didn't, we lived in town.
Q: Oh, that's right.
A: But my uncles sometimes they'd have geese, where they got them I
don't know, but they always had them.
Q: What other type food did your mother fix for Thanksgiving?

Howard Herron 16
A: Oh, pumpkin pie and popcorn balls and cracker jacks. She made some
kind of cracker jacks, too. On Christmas, we put up some stockings and
if we got an orange or a pocket knife or a new pair of stockings we had a
wonderful Christmas in them days. We were poor people. The mice didn't
stick around very long.
Q: Did you make little gifts for each other?
A: No, we did that in school. Teachers, they'd draw turkeys and
everything on the blackboard and then we'd make them out of, cut them and
take the scissors and cut them out, turkeys and geese, out with the
scissors, out of paper.
Q: Did your grandparents come to these Thanksgiving dinners or Christmas
dinners?
A: Well, not my mother's father. My mother's father and my grandfather
on my mother's side didn't because they were, my Grandpa Surgeon passed
away. I remember one time he was pretty sick and Dr. Barry, in them days
you see they didn't have nurses or anything, the neighbors would go in
and sit up. My Uncle Scott, that's my father's brother, he lived right
close there too and he and a fellow by the name of Grant Cunningham
would go over and sit up with Grandpa Surgeon. And Dr. Barry said that,
he always, my grandfather always said, "Give me a toddy. I want another
toddy." That was whiskey and warm water and sugar and they, I was told
this by my Uncle Scott and Dr. Barry, said now, "Don't give him anymore
toddys, he's had enough for the night." So this Grant Cunningham, that
night my grandpa said, ''I want more toddy, I want more toddy." And so
Cunningham said to my Uncle Scott, "Well, hell, Scott, let's give him a
stiff one." So they did and he fixed him a stiff one and contrary to the
doctor's orders. And the old guy drank it and he got better and he lived
two more years. That's the truth.
Q: How about the grandparents on your father's side? Did they come to
the dinners? Did you go to visit them when you were little?
A: Not much then. They lived north. See they lived north of Batchtown,
near Hamburg. Hamburg and Batchtown was, it was about say maybe eight or
ten miles south of there. And the only means of transportation was horse
and buggy or horse and wagon and it was too far to go and the horses
would get tired. They didn't have nothing but log cabin and my father
and brothers and all his brothers and them they had to--I told you the
other day that this log cabin still is there. And they had a loft and
the boys would get up there and I heard my father tell how the snow would
drift in the cracks and they'd push the covers off. And they all had
feather beds and they killed wild ducks and they raised ducks too and
they saved the feathers to make these feather beds. And they would push
this snow out and then go downstairs at the fireplace and they didn't
have a stove. And my grandmother used to cook with a, she would take a
kettle, iron kettle and she'd mix corn bread up and cakes and stuff and
she'd cook it. And she'd just put the lid on there and she'd get the
coals in the fireplace and how she did it, 1'11 never know. But she'd
cook that stuff in there and cut that coal and she'd stick it in there
and put the coals over the kettle, in the iron kettle and she knew just

Howard Herron 17
when to take that corn bread out and when to take that cake out.
just delicious and we ate cornbread and muffins.
It was
Q:
What did your grandmother look like?
A: Oh, she always had a, I don't know what you call them, a Mother
Hubbard dress or whatever you like. And she was grey headed and had kind
of a square face, and grey hair, of course. And my grandfather he was
not a very tall man, he wasn't as tall as I am and he had great big long
whiskers come clear down here to a point and they were just white as
snow. He chewed tiger fine cut tobacco and never ever got a little of
that amber tobacco juice on those whiskers when he'd go to spit, he'd go
(spit) like that and he spit from here to that cabinet over there. My
mother, when we lived in the west part of Auburn, he'd come down and they
lived the first house south of what used to be the Christian Church, it's
torn down now. And my mother would say, "Well, the preacher's in town,
going to have dinner over at Aunt Dora's today." Grandpa's coming down
the road and he come down the street that the road goes out of town and
here he come with his came and he walked for about a block and then he
stopped and look all around and then he would go, stop and go another
block. And he lived to be, I don't know how old he was. I thought I had
some pictures of him here but I don't know. I'll look and see if I can
find them but I don't think I can.
Q: Did your grandparents move to Auburn when your father moved to Auburn?
A: No, they were here, they were here first. They lived on a farm out
west of town here. The first house going west toward Waverly on the
north side of the road. That's where they farmed. When we got to Auburn,
we came in here on the C&A Train, and we walked out there, and we stayed
all night there the first night we came to Auburn. Our clothing and our
furniture and what we had and everything was put on a steamboat Villa
Calhoun, and you go down to Alton, and then they transferred it on to the
C&A Railroad, and then they shipped it here to Auburn.
Q: Can you remember that trip by steamboat?
A: Oh, yes, I had my first "boughten" pants. And I remember they hauled
everything on this steamboat to Villa Calhoun and they had a big stairways
going up. You've been on one, haven't you? The big stairway goes up and
they had a great big bull tied down here. And they had him tied tight
and he couldn't get out and we'd run back up the stairs. We were devils
I guess.
Q: How long a trip was that, from when you started until you got to
Alron?
A: Well, we got up early in the morning and a big wagon took us to
Waverly to the West Point landing. That's when we got on our way from
Batchtown to the West Point and the steamboat Villa Calhoun would land
there and we loaded up. And oh, I thought it was fine to be on a boat
and the negroes took it, you know, and we go down to Alton. And then
they pulled into Alton, and then they unloaded stuff, and I don't know
how drays took it and went to the depot here and get it. So then we, my

Howard Berron 18
father bought this house I told you about for $775 or $750, that's it and
a brand new house.
Q: Did you say that a dray brought your belongings?
A: No, no, my uncle, I don't know what took it from the boat to the
railroad but my grandpa had teams of horses and wagons and they rode it
down then to their house down there.
Q: Was that your first steamboat ride?
A: That's the first steamboat and first train I ever seen.
Q: And the first train ride? What was the train like?
A: Oh, I can't remember now. We came on the C&A train and we stopped
here. We got into Auburn about 6:00 at night, just about this dark and
they didn't have that many street lights like they have now. And so we
walked out to my father's, my grandfather's. And then the next day they,
I guess it was, they come in with their wagon and loaded the furniture
and they took it down to that house that my father bought and there we
started living again. That's where I started school from there.
Q: Can you remember what the inside of that train looked like when you
came over?
A: No, just an old style train.
Q: Steam engine?
A: Oh yes, steam engine. It had a bell on it that rang most of the
time, a steam bell.
Q: Did they stop at every little town?
A: No, mostly. There wasn't that many towns between. Alton and Upper
Alton and Eodfrey and Carlinville, Girard, Virden and Auburn. hat's
about all the stops there were.
Q: When you were talking about riding on the wagon when you were a
little boy, did you ever have hay rides?
A: Oh, yes, later on when I went to school we had hay rides. Some of
the children and their folks would have a wagon that lived at the edge of
town and I remember we had one big party out at the Illinois State Game
Farm that used to be out south of town where the country club is now.
And that was the State Game Farm where they raised pheasants by the
thousands and shipped them all over the state and the hunters would go
out and kill them. And Doc Weaver was the state commissioner here in
town and it employed about twelve or fourteen men out there and if a
fellow had a job with them he had a pretty good job. They'd always meet
uptown on the square at a wagon and they'd go out to the Farm on the hay
rack or on the wagon. I remember one time, I can't remember her last
name but she was English, her father was a gameskeeper from England who

Howard Herron 19
came over here. Gertrude was her first name and she had a birthday party
out there and out at the farm and everybody was invited in our class and
everybody was boy, girl, boy, girl. I had my first date that night.
Q: How old were you then?
A: Oh, 1 was ten or twelve years old then and Anita Bradley was her
name. She's dead now and oh, all we done was held hands and help them
over the fence or something like that. Went out in the timber and picked
flowers and came back and had ice cream and cake and then they brought us
all back to town and we played ring-around-the-rosie, old style games.
Q: Talking about this pheasant farm, what would be the price of a
pheasant in those days?
A: Oh, they didn't sell them.
Q: They did not sell them, they were not used to eat?
A: No, well, yes, they were, they would ship them in crates to other
parts of the state and turn them loose to inhabit the state with the
pheasants. The farmers got so that they hated the pheasants because the
pheasants would go along and the corn would get up about that high and
they'd pull the corn up and they'd eat the grain off of it, finally the
State had to do away with the State Game Farm. I remember one time they
had a cyclone came over across here and it blew over all the coops and it
just killed them by the thousands. They took two cars from the railroad
here and then went out and went around and picked up them dead birds and
put them on these boxcars and took them to Chicago and took them to the
poor people. They were New Pork dressed. That same night of that cyclone
we went to Pawnee to a football game at the high school over there, and
it broke all the window lights in the train and had telephone poles down
on the tracks between here and Pawnee. And we couldn't, some of us, the
rest of us had the hotel reserved there, all the rooms in the hotel, what
rooms they had. And some of the boys, some of the Pawnee football players
took some of the boys home with them to stay all night and about ten of
us stayed up in the jail, the courtroom. And the professor over at
Pawnee went, every town had a livery stable then, didn't have automobiles
then. If you went any place, you'd go hire a horse and a buggy. And so
the professor, went and got blankets, horse blankets, they had nice
cloths, they kept the horse blankets clean, they were nice, and they gave
us all a blanket a piece and that's when we came home. When we went over
there it was just short sleeve weather and that's, that was the eleventh
month, eleventh day in 1911 when it happened. I'll never forget it as
long as I live and we slept on the tables there in the courtroom and come
home the next morning on the train. And the window lights were out and
it was pretty cold and we had a horse blanket around us. We brought the
horse blankets to school and they got them all together and took them
back over to the livery barn.
Q: A cyclone in November?
A: Eleventh month, eleventh day in 1911. Quite a cyclone in Texas too
then. They said the ~utton's Clothing Store here that hail came down

Howard Herron 20
eleven inches in circumference. It went through the skylight and they
picked it up and measured it and it was eleven inches in circumference.
Q: Good heavens!
A: It was quite a storm. We couldn't come home, and we went over there
in a team of wagons and two horses when we went over there to play football.
Q: How
Pawnee?
long would it take you to go by horse and wagon from here to
A: Oh,
about three or four hours.
The horse could only go so fast.
Q: Did
you ever own a horse when you were young?
A: We1 1, I was a jockey. When we had a racetrack here, a fellow by the
name of Bert Vaughn had a running horse and they couldn't get anybody to
ride him. I always did love horses and I was working for Jerico. He had
two race horses. One was named Shoestring Billy and the other Silver
Abbey. This Dr. Wheeler says have a running race and the last one in the
race would be a running race. Bert Vaughn owned this running horse and
he said, "I haven't got any jockey." Dr. Weaver said, "Well, here's a
jockey right here," and he grabbed me. He said, "You' 11 ride him." And
I said, "Yes, I'll ride him." And so I did, but I didn't win the race
because he was a good ole horse. He was a tall, long-gaited horse, he
didn't get started, so he couldn't get away very fast, you know. And St.
Louis Joe, a horse we called him St. Louis Joe, he was faster and so he
got away quicker than, but when the race was over well, he just got
stretched out and started to run good because he would take a long stride.
Q: Was horse racing a popular sport then?
A: Oh, yes, Auburn had a racetrack. Virden and New Berlin had a
racetrack and it had a meet this week and then in Virden next week, this
week, this week.
Q: Did you have any famous jockeys in this area?
A: Well, I guess I was about as famous as any of them and I went, I
heard of a, well I was about fifteen years old then, and I heard of a
fellow in Carlinville that had a horse, good running horse. So I went
down there to see this fellow and made a deal with him that I'd take the
horse and we'd split the profit on him. And so I started. Spring News
was the horse's name. His mother was Evening News and his father's name
was Main Spring by Evening News and the colt was Spring News. That's the
one I rode and I remember the race was held at Virden and I took this
horse. I walked and rode him a while and then I'd get tired and I'd get
off. It was quite a ways from Carlinville to Virden and we got there.and
I put him in the livery barn and I guess I slept all night with him in
the stall. Horses will never step on you and I put a rope across the
corner of the stall because he would smell around you and just keep you
awake. So John Quinn, Earl Faust and Ted Reagan came down there and John
Harms and they said to me, "Can you win with him Howard?" And I said,
"Well, I think so." I said, "I haven't even got $10 for the entry fee."

Howard Herron 2 1
They said, "Well, we'll pay the entrance fee and we'll make it worth your
while if you win this race, we're going to bet a lot of money on you.11 I
said, "I'll ride him as long as he's got hair." And two horses, there
were three or four horses in the race but these two, Guy Housman (name of
a horse) and my horse, we broke together. They said we could put a horse
blanket over us all the way around the track. We got to the last turn,
he was crowding a little bit, and I just took my bat, I had a bat about
that long, and I said, "Lay over, lay over." And he pulled his horse
just a little bit and threw him off stride and that let me get about that
far ahead of him and that's they way we finished. They gave me $25 for
riding, winning that race. I got the purse too, the $50 purse. I got
that. Of course, I had to split that with Mr. Utt the fellow that was
the owner of the horse. So then it went on, the race business flourished
quite a bit and Tom Strevey in Taylorville, he was a blacksmith, and he
told me about a horse in Edinburg owned by Dr. Walter, a veterinarian in
Edinburg, had a horse named Tapioca. She was a good old mare and she
could run half a mile like a streak of lightning. So Tom Street brought
her over here to me and I rode her in a race here and won it easy. And I
went in the circuit every week in the county fairs in the fall of the
year. And I'd have to go to school and then I'd get on the interurban
and they'd go over there and Strevey would take care of the horse and I'd
be there the day of the race to ride the horse. And so it wound up, I
know it wound up in a free for all fight out here. Shoestring Billie and
Gift-of-Million was the two horses, whichever one got the pole, the pole
means the inside track, and whoever would get around that pole, he
generally won the race. This fellow named Jerico had a barn out there
where they cooled the horses off and shed them so the sun wouldn't get to
them. And so it was going down there into the barn and the first heat
was over and Ned Provines drove Gift-of-Million and Jerico drove
Shoestring Billie. And Jerico took his buggy whip and hit Provines right
across the face with it and started the fight. That was in the fall of
the year, that was the last, the races had been going on for a couple of
years, and anyway that was how they wound up the race. They had a nice
big grandstand out there and everything on the way to the cemetery, just
right where those oil tanks are, just right across the street. If you
get on an airplane, I flew over it in an airplane and you can see even in
the corn, you can see a difference where, you can see the indentation
where that racetrack used to be. But that wound up the racetrack.
Course them days you didn't have auto- mobiles, you'd go then to the
livery stable and rent you a horse and a buggy, and they had lap robes
and everything. That's the way it was for transportation. I remember
when Dr. White got a car here. Us kids, it'd make a track in the dust
and us kids were barefooted and we'd run around and we'd track that dust
so we got to see the car. It was quite a site in them days.
Q: Your first car. The first time you saw a car?
A: The first time we saw a car. Dr. White owned it.
Q: What did it look like?
A: Well, it looked like an old car, looked like an old Ford. It didn't
have a steering wheel, it had like this.

Howard Herron 2 2
Q: A rod or a guide?
A: You didn't have a wheel to turn.
Q: Did it have a top on it?
A: No, yes, no, it didn't either. It didn't have a top. I think I
lived in a wonderful age and I suppose you and other children or kids are
going to see more than I ever seen because you can't stand in the way of
prosperity, progress. Because well, everything, I seen the horse and
buggy go, I seen the automobile come, I seen the radio come, I seen the
television come, I seen them go to the moon, or the planet up there and I
guess I've seen quite a bit.
Q: Yes, you have.
A: And you and a lot of people your age. You'll see a lot more stuff.
Q: It's hard to imagine.
A: Yes, you can't stand in the way of progress.
Q: Well, let's go back again a little bit to springtime when you were
little. Do you remember what Easter was like?
A: Oh, yes, we just had Easter eggs, that's about all that, and we all
went to Sunday school of course and that was the birthday of Christ or
the Resurrection.
Q: Yes, did your mother have a new hat?
A: Oh, yes, my mother, she made hats.
Q: She made hats?
A: Yes, my mother was a good seamstress. She made hats and she was a
good and wonderful cook and she always had some kind of a doings around
Easter.
Q: She designed her own hats to wear to church?
A: She designed them and she made them and sold them. She made all our
clothes until we came up here and I had my first "boughten," first pair
of "boughten" pants and oh, I always thought that was the finest thing I
ever had. Because she'd take Uncle John and Uncle Bill's suits and she'd
cut them down and rip them all up and make me and my brother a suit of
clothes just like she could anybody. She could sew, in them days, they
had to do that.
Q: In church, did you sing?
A: Yes, we had Mrs. Hedrick, I told you about her. She was my Sunday
School teacher and they'd always have an Easter Cantata or something like
that, whatever you call it.

Howard Herron
Q: Cantata?
A: Cantata. They'd have everybody speak a little piece. I guess they
still do it.
Q: Did you have a special Easter dinner?
A: Well, no, at home we did but not at church.
Q: Did you have traditional ham?
A: Oh, yes. Oh, I don't know about that.
Q: Did you color eggs?
A: My mother used to color eggs. They'd get sassafras roots and color
them, used the roots to color them.
Q: What color did you get from sassafras?
A: Beige, browns and some other kind of weed they got they used for
coloring, I can't remember. I know, well, it was just first one thing
and then another.
Q: What were 4th of July celebrations like when you were a boy?
A: Now you're getting to where you're coming into the Auburn's Free Fish
Fry. They used to have the biggest affair here. We had ten saloons and
nine churches and they had a big platform built in each corner of the
square. And they bought fish by the ton, and they'd build it, and they'd
fill it with lard, and they'd fry this fish. And you'd come and get all
the fish you wanted for nothing. The saloons furnished the money and
Auburn had a band. They didn't have a high school band in them days,
they'd have just an ordinary band with different ones around town, taught
themselves mostly. They could play pretty good and they had outside
entertainment would come, actors and tumblers and things like that. And
I remember the people would come here and they'd bring, oh, from Virden,
Thayer and Waverly, they'd bring a wagon and bring their tea and hay and
corn for their horses. And they'd sleep under the wagons, and they had
their own blankets and stayed for the three day fish fry. All free.
Q: Three days?
A: Three days and before the fish fry we'd get in cars and they'd take
the band. And I always went with them and we had a billy goat we'd take
along too. And we'd get off in a town and we'd parade and tell them all
about the fish fry and us kids, we'd go along. We had a little fish
about this long out of cardboard and a string in there with a loop and
we'd hook that on to all the cars and it was in every business house
about the Auburn Fish Fry. And I remember the tumblers would be on one
corner and on one they had a tall pole. They set it up in front of the
Nazarene Church or just about in front of it and I forget how tall it
was. And they had a cable run from it to the northwest corner of the
square and this Okay Stewart was his name, and he got on this platform

Howard Herron
and he had these pink tights and He'd holler, "Is the man with the gun
ready? If the man with the gun is ready I'm all ready too." They'd
shoot the gun and this fellow would hang by his teeth on a rubber grip.
And this boy'd just come down on this pulley that was two blocks long and
he was really yelling something and he had a big blanket and a canvass of
some kind and when he hit, he stopped him so he wouldn't get hurt.
Q:
It makes your neck hurt thinking about it.
A: It didn't hurt me. We were anxious to see it. We were always ready
to see it. My father raised from four to five hogs and he, after we sold
that house, we bought another house that had a whole block in the southwest
part of town. And we had a cow and he always raised four-five hogs and
Lou Alberts and Butch Harms would butcher. They'd make a date like if
they come the 5th of December this year to kill your hogs and they'd come
in and all we had to do was get the wood ready and they'd come in with
their wagon and tripod or whatever it is. They'd be there about 4:30,
5:00 in the morning and they'd have all those hogs shot and hung up on
the trestle there and they had them a11 cut up, lard rendered, and
sausage made. And us kids would go down the street giving everybody some
liver, everybody had liver when we butchered. And so they would make a
date next year for the same time. Everybody had them around town, had to
raise their own hogs. My father had a smokehouse and they used sassafras
and hickory and sassafras, hickory and something else, some kind of wood
they smoked it. Boy those were good hams too. That was the best ham. I
can taste them yet.
Q: Those smokehouses, were they all enclosed?
A: Well, yes, they were enclosed, but they has a. . . .
Q: Had place for the draft?
A: Smoke would come out through the cracks, but they'd hang them hogs up
in the wintertime and they'd salt them, put salt over them and they'd
hang them up. And the first time that they thawed, they would get around
the hams, so then they'd brush all that salt off and then they'd take
sugar and stuffing. It really tasted good. We traded in the store, and
they took milk. We never paid anything at the grocery store because we
just traded milk. He had three children, him and his wife and we took
milk to them about everyday. And groceries never cost like they do naw
and we just traded groceries for milk. And I took care of Dr. Britton's
horses. I told you I loved horses. I took care of Old Dr. Britton's
horses for him and if we needed a doctor why he would come and he never
would charge us because I took care of his horses and he never would
charge us.
Q: Did you do the milking?
A: Oh, yes, a lot of times.
Q: How much milk would you get from a cow?

Howard Herron 25
A: Oh, we had a cow one time, we bought a gurnsey cow and we had to milk
her three times a day. She gave so much milk and we had an over supply
of milk. We'd just feed it to the hogs. And I'll never forget my father
said to me one day, he was going out to thrash and he said, "Howard, I
want you to put some lye, worm them hogs with a little lye." I didn't
know. I got a can of lye and a bucket of water and dumped in there and
in the trough and the pigs would drag one way and then they'd squeal and
bite the dirt. So anyway it didn't kill them but it killed all the
worms. Dad would be gone all week thrashing wheat. They'd go from one
house to the other thrashing and when he got home well, he didn't know
about this and I didn't tell him. I learned not to put that much lye in
the water. That was too much.
Q: Well, when you were ten years old, you said you worked on a farm.
A: Oh, yes, I went work for Beansy Blockly out here. I had what you
call a sulky low. Three horses. All you had to do was sit on there and
drive the horses and then kick your foot. I got two bits a day and my
board, and the next year I got fifty cents a day and my board, and then
the next year I finally got a dollar and my board.
Q: Wow!
A: That was when school was out. Everybody had something to do in them
days. If you didn't work, well, you didn't eat I guess. I remember
mother used to say, "Boys," we'd play out in the yard and she'd say,
"wash them feet," and we'd go back and pump the water on them. And I
tell you I'll never forget, she said, "Now I want to see them feet, them
sheets are getting too dirty too quick." We didn't wash them, we just
pumped water. It was cold, you know, coming out of the well and we
didn't want to get our feet cold and so we just pumped and she'd hear the
pump going and think we were washing them, but we didn't wash them.
Q: Did you go barefoot a lot?
A: Oh, yes. We didn' t take our long underwear off until the 1st of May,
then we got to go barefooted. Then we would go barefooted until frost.
We'd go swimming out here and we just ran off and went swimming out in
the creek out here. And she forbid us to go unless some elderly people
went with us so we would come home and have dirt on our face and I suppose
she knew we had been swimming.
Q: Did you learn how to swim by yourself?
A: Oh, yes, had to. If it hadn't been for Charles Martin, I wouldn't be
here today. There was a log across the creek and there came a big rain
and Sugar Creek was coming out. And I went and jumped in the water out
there before I could really swim very good. The current was so fast it
took me and Charlie Martin out on that log and a board was on the log and
he grabbed me by the hair and throwed me up and walked me back and got me
out.
Q: Howard, how old were you then?

Howard Herron 2 6
A: Oh, about ten, twelve. Maybe fifteen, I don't know. But I learned
to swim good from that time on.
Q: Did you ever have a pet?
A: Oh, yes, we had dogs. I had a dog. I had a little terrier and my
brother he had an "old red" they called him. Loren Gates, my neighbor,
had a shepherd dog and in them days, they didn't plow the fields where
the wheat was in the fall of the year because they didn't have time then.
They just had all horses and the horses couldn't get the work done like a
tractor does.
End of Tape One, Side Two.
Q: Howard, do you want to continue on about your dog story?
A: Well we generally had a weenie or two around, we had a ice box with
just ice and a lid and we would get up about five in the morning and one
of us would go down and take a weenie and go down to ~ave's house when
they got up, we'd give Old Water Boy a piece of that weenie and we'd lure
him over to our house. Then all three of us, I and my brother and Ron
Gates, would take our dogs and go out in the fields in the country, the
rabbits were thick then. We would go down to those fields and we would
holler, "Here it comes," and Old Water Boy would stick up his head and he
made about two or three jumps and he reached over and grabbed those
rabbits. We'd cut their heads off and slit them in the stomach and throw
their intestines out. It was nothing to go out and get fifty rabbits and
skin the hair off. We went over to Wineman's store. He would give us
fifteen cents for those rabbits and he'd sell them for twenty cents.
He'd hook the hind leg and he always left one foot on, They'd hook those
rabbits all over that pole and the women would come in and see a rabbit
that they want and then they would freeze them. We had cold winters and
lots of snow in those days. More then, than they do now, I think.
Bobsleds, everybody had a bobsled, every farmer did. So that's the way
we earned our spending money. We'd easily get fifty rabbits in a day.
They were just thick.
Q: Did you shoot them with a gun?
A: No, the dogs would catch them, we didn't have any guns. Guns cost
money and shells cost money. We just had a knife so we could cut their
heads off and we just cut them right down here and give them a pull like
that, (indicating) and the guts would fall out and we'd pull the hair and
the hide off of it. Then take them up to Wineman's.
Q: Did you take some home to Mom to cook?
A: Oh, she had rabbits whenever she wanted them. I ate so much rabbit I
could hop. (laughs) We enjoyed it.
Q: So besides your farming, what else did you do as a young boy for a
job?

Howard Herron 27
Q: Well, my first job outside of farming, every evening after school,
was at Butler Poultry company down here. They'd go out to the country,
every farmer raised chickens, and they'd bring these chickens (into town.
They had what they call ruffers, they would hook them in the hooks there
and they would stick them in their brain and they would throw them over
to us kids. We'd pick the pin feathers off and then they put them all in
a barrel and put a big cake of ice on them. Then they would put burlap
over the top and take them out to the depot, and the train, they called
it number eighty. It came in at eight o'clock, and they would ship them
to New York. They were New York dressed, they didn't even take the
intestines out of them at the Butler Poultry Company down here.
Q: Where was that located?
A: Right down here where the city had their machinery. That was the
Butler Poultry House. (3rd and Washington Street)
Q: The city garage?
A: Yes. Us kids would get, they got five cents for ruffing and killing
them and we got two cents for pinning them. We worked all day and made
about forty cents, but we had something to do, we'd get chicken lice all
over us. They don't hurt you but they'd run you to death, they would run
a11 over you.
Q: So what did you spend your money on then?
A: Oh, ice cream cones.
Q: Where did you get your ice cream cones?
A: Well, they had ice cream then.
Q: How did they keep that ice cream cold?
A: They had some kind of a big barrel like thing and a big can about
that long, about ten gallon, about that big around and they put ice all
around it and pushed half of it down and put salt around there. Did you
ever see them make homemade ice cream? Well, that's the way they had
that can, they packed it in there, and they and a cork down in the bottom,
and they pulled it out and let the water out and then they'd do the same
thing and keep it cold that way. Charlie White had a popcorn machine,
you could get a sack of popcorn for a nickel and every Saturday night
they had a band concert. Every Saturday night was a big night. The
farmers came to town, and the band would play.
Q: Did they dance?
A: No.
Q: There was no place to dance.
A: They had a dance at the opera house, that is what they called it,

Howard Herron 2 8
Q: Where was the opera house?
A: Well, it was on the left side of the square, back over where, do you
know where that there Kay's place used to be? The upstairs covered two
buildings there, there used to be a stairway going up there, but it is
closed up.
Q: Did they have a stage?
A: Yes, a stage. They would have a band and these shows would come to
town. And there was a Negro, he'd walk out in the street, and he'd spin
that wife around like that and he was just advertising for the show that
night. And a lot of times us kids would come home from school and some
of them drunks and the saloon keepers would get drunk too and they'd
throw money out in the street in the mud and us kids would go out in that
mud and get that money and then we went home and washed our shoes off.
Q: Can you remember some of the plays that you saw there? Some of the
entertainment?
A: Well, by name I don't think I could, but my brother and I used to go
to the shows and we could go home and put the whole show on verbatim for
my mother and dad. They had Uncle om's Cabin and I don't know what all.
Q: You speak of your brother quite a lot but you had two brothers, is
that correct? Were you closer to one than the other?
A: Well, my oldest brother was, he was kind of fleshy, they called him
Fat. They nicknamed him Fat. He was the best-hearted one of the whole
bunch. My youngest brother, he was kind of, I don't know how to describe
him, he was kind of a loner, you might say, and he died, about six years
ago. He was a good boy but he was a little subdued.
Q: So it's your older brother that you went to the movie with or went to
the shows with?
A: Yes. He ran a cafe here on the west side of the square for years
until he died. He died of cancer of the lungs. He smoked cigarettes. I
told him it was going to kill him.
Q: Were there any movies when you were a boy?
A: Yes, they started what they called a Nickelodeon on the east side of
the square. There was a vacant place there and you could see a picture
show for a nickel. Nickelodeon.
Q: Silent movies?
A: Yes.
Q: And someone played---
A: Keystone Cops and the girl played the piano. Louise Hakes played the
piano .

Howard Herron 2 9
Q: Was she from around here?
A: Yes, her father ran a saloon.
(2: That takes quite a bit of talent playing one of those pianos?
A: Louise was . . . .
Q: Did she play fast?
A: Yes, she was pretty good at it though. And there used to be a Chili
Parlor on the south side of the square. I'd go in there, by the livery
stable, old John Isaac had a saloon and Sug Armstrong had a chili parlor
there. Just a little narrow place on the sidewalk. Had stools in there
and a little table. Tables like booths and he made good chili too. Gave
ten cents for a bowl of chili.
Q: Describe what the inside of a grocery store looked like when you were
real young.
A: Well, this Wineman store I was telling you about had four clerks and
a bookkeeper and you'd come in the store and tell the clerk what you
wanted and he would go get it for you and he would weigh it on the
scales. They had a barrel of sauerkraut and a barrel of pickles and
sacks of potatoes and they had two delivery wagons. One for the east
side of town and one for the west. The people would call, if they had a
phone, or they would send their children down and list the groceries they
want. They'd fill them all up and charge them and you'd go in on pay
day. Most of the people worked in the mine here or the game farm, and
they would, about 10:OO in the morning well, the east side would start
out with his route and the west side would start out with his route and
then when the dad would go to pay the grocery bill, the kids that were
along would get a sack of candy.
Q: Oh, what kind of candy?
A: Oh, Christmas candy mostly, ordinary candy. They didn't have it
wrapped like that. They had trays in there, a showcase to keep the flies
off.
Q: Did you have licorice?
A: Licorice whip, and when they had . . . .
Q:
What was your favorite kind of candy?
A: They had a butcher shop and he didn't sell nothing but meat and if
you were going to town, a kid would say, "Are you going to the market, to
the butchers, can I go with you?" Well, if you get twenty cents worth of
beef steak, it would be enough for three or four people and the butcher
would give you a weenie and if a kid would come in he would get a weenie
too.

Howard Herron
Q: Like the bank does with the suckers?
A: Yes. I'll never forget a boat full of English came over here and
they, Willie Turner was one of their names and Jimmie Richardson, and we
were out in the yard one day and he says, "Where does the chemist live?"
And I didn't know what a chemist was and I said, "What do you mean a
chemist?" and he said, "Where you get the pills, the medicine." I said,
"You mean the Doctor?" He said, "No, the chemist, the chemist. Where
you get the balls, the balls, the baseballs." "Oh, you want the
drugstore." He wanted to know where you could buy a baseball. They just
didn't know what that was in England. A baseball. Boy they all went for
baseball. People would come in here, some Italian family would come in
and they'd write back to Italy or France. This town was originally
farming town but they would go out to the coal mine and they'd send them
money to come over here. They would get them a job in the mines. That's
how, at one time this was all made up after a few years, the mines got
going so good here and why there were Czechoslovakians, Lithuanians,
Polish, Irish, French, Italian, everything. That's why we got Yasinski's
and all, Baschieri and it used to be Jones, Brown and Herron and Smith
and names like that.
Q: Most of these people settled on the east side of town?
A: Yes, most of them settled on the east side of town. They kind of
kept to theirselves.
Q: Was there a language problem?
A: Well, to a certain extent. When I started the Chevrolet business, I
was the lawyer, the secretary, their advisor and they'd come to me with
all their problems and I always treated them right and honestly. And
I'll say this, they were good people to pay their bills, better than the
Americans. The Americans would cheat you out if they could. Not the
foreign people. I'll never forget I sold a fellow a car, Felician Gignet
was his name.
Q: What's the name?
A: Felician Gignet. I sold him a used car and he had paid it all but
$40. This was later on, during the depression of 1929 and I bought Dr.
art's house then. I had just come back, I sold my business, and come
back from California, we went to California, my wife and son and I, put
my money in three banks and they all went broke. I had to start over and
Felician came down to my house and he stood there and he had his hat in
his hand and he said, "Mr. Percy, I owe you but I cannot pay." He said,
It
I got no money, I got no work, I got no money." I said, "Well, let me
look at the books," and I went in and he only owed $40. And I had made a
pretty good profit on the car and I said, "Just forget it, Felician," so
I wound up tearing the bill up and he had the rear end of his pants out
and I gave him a suit of clothes. He was honest and most of the foreign
people were very honest. They had to be, they were taught that way over
there.

Howard Herron 3 1
Q: When did Auburn have their first coal mine?
A: Well, they were here when I came. We came here in 1904 and they were
here because my dad went to work at the Lefton Mine. There was the
Lefton Mine, the Auburn Alton Coal Company and the Solomon Mine.
Q: And your father went to work in a coal mine and he was also a farmer?
A: Well, no, he wasn't a farmer, he owned the machines later on. Be
became involved with the thrashing machine, that was later on, but when
we came here we were just poor people from Calhoun County, so poor that
the mice wouldn't stick around.
Q: What kind of hours did he have to work at the coal mine?
A: Eight hours a day.
Q: Five days a week or six?
A: Six days a week and sometimes he'd work seven and they'd give him a
little overtime because they had to clean the boilers. They had to clean
the lime out of the boilers. Did you ever see a tea kettle lime up? The
boilers would lime up with this hard water, the steam would run the
engines that hoisted the coal up out of the line and . . . .
Q: That was his job then?
A: He went to work firing those boilers. Scooped the coal in, they had
to carry the ashes out. They used a wheelbarrow. My uncle was the
hoisting engineer, he had one of the best jobs--you had to have so many
years experience and state license to be a hoisting engineer. He went
into the thrashing business with the farmers. He baught engines and a
separator and a boiler and paid for it by the month.
Q: Did you ever work for the coal mine?
A: Oh, yes, I started working for the coal mine at a dollar and a
quarter a day.
Q: How old were you?
A: I lied. I said I was sixteen, but I was only fifteen.
Q: You had to be sixteen to start working?
Q: You had to go to school till you were sixteen. My mother was sick
all the time and bedfast and we had to have the doctors come from
Springfield and we just well throwed the money out in the street because
that doctor couldn't do no good, but we tried. When your mother is sick,
you do anything you can to try and help. So I quit school, the eighth
grade and that's as far as I got and I went to work at the coal mine.
Q: What job did you have there?

Howard Berron 32
A: Open and shut the door, letting the mule and driver through. The
mule would pull a cart with coal on them and I had to have the doors to
shoot the air to make the air go down in the mine. And this fan would
blow down the air about a mile or two and I'd have to open the door and
let the mules and the driver in. The cars had no brakes on them. He'd
whistle and I would hear him coming and I'd open the door and then when
he'd get by I'd shut the door. That's all I had to do and sometimes I'd
go to sleep and someone would come and wake me up.
Q: Were there any bad accidents in the mine?
A: Sometimes. When a man got killed, well, everybody would quit work
for the day. Not too many. They were pretty careful. So then I got a
job as what they call a greaseman. I was greasing the cars that haul the
coal and I got $2.62 a day. I was making the money. Later on I got a
job driving a mule and taking the coal, that paid $2.84 a day.
Q: Was that kind of dangerous?
A: Yes, you had the mules in front of you and you had to stand there
with one foot on the platform and one on the tailchain and the other hand
on the mule's rumpus. If you come to a hill you had to go down a hill
pretty fast and you'd always jump off and put a scrag in the wheel, make
the wheel slide on the iron rail, hold it back and then you'd hitch on
the back and hold your head around and look this way and kind of shine a
little light for the mule but them mules could see in the dark. When
they went down there, they never came out until the spring, until the
mine shut down.
Q: Could they go blind?
A: They would be blind for a day or two because the light was bright
when they first were brought out. They'd wander round and stuff like
that. But after a day or two on top, first of April when the mine would
generally shut down, they didn't need the coal so bad, they'd come out of
the mine and they'd bring the mules out and put them out in the pasture
and pull them back in the fall, back down in the mine in the fall.
Q: The mines didn't operate in the summer?
A: Some of them did, but this one over here the Old Auburn-Alton Coal
Company, generally furnished some coal for the railroad and they didn't
use as much.
Q: Where was that mine located?
A: Just north of ~utler's Poultry House.
Q: Is that where the area sunk in about fifteen years ago?
A: Yes, you know where the lake is out there at the ballpark, little
lake they got there? Well the tire yard was there. The tire yard was
here and the tile yard was here and the mine was here and Butler's was
here. The mine shaft went down and then a little ways was a fan, a great

Howard Herron 33
big steam engine fan which ran day and night to keep the air blowing
through that mine.
Q: So it is possible that the house that I lived in over on Park Avenue
was right on top of a mine?
A: Yes, it was. There is a coal belt right underneath us right now.
Q: Well, what would happen, you think, if we had an earthquake here in
Auburn?
A: Oh, it is 365 feet down there, straight down. There was a big fire
down there and the west side of the fire was a couple blocks west of the
Methodist Church. The mine got on fire and the air and the water and the
sulfur somewhere caught fire and they had to seal the whole part of the
mine off. They used kind of a plaster of Paris and brick and cement and
shut the air off. They had to smother it out and its all mine two or
three miles west of town, east of town, all mined out.
You asked me if we had an earthquake here, I'm telling you now that there
is many a layer of rock and slate and six to eight feet of coal space
that we wouldn't fall any farther than that. It's the least of our
worries because I have been here all of my life since I was about seven
years old and it never failed yet. But now when the Peanut Mine, the old
mine here where I started, when it closed down, they would take the mules
out of the mine, bring them up one at a time, put them an pasture and
then when the demand for coal became greater in the fall, they would take
them back down in the mine again. Then when the Peanut here, everybody
called it the Peanut Mine, when it closed down the last time, Charles
McMann and myself went to Divernon and we got a job on the night shift
over there driving the mules. The Divernon Mine was one of the finest
coal mines in the country, ever known around here. They had a lot of
rock top. Just solid rock and you had no props to hold it up or anything.
It was a good clean mine. We worked there and we got, as the day shift
lost their drivers, we moved from the night shift to the day shift. Then
World War I started to come. France and them were in to it and we were
involved to the extent that they raised our pay to $5.00 a day, from
$2.84 to $5.00 a day because they wanted coal. In the meantime my mother
died and I came back over to Auburn.
They wanted me to get Dr. Woolover, that I spoke of that owned this
horse, and this veterinary at Edinburg, bought twenty-one horses and
mules for France and they had them all assembled in the livery barn at
Chatham, Illinois. He had me go and take those twenty-one horses from
the Edinburg. When I got them all tied together and put my saddle in
the car, I went to Chatham. Si Shelton ran the livery barn in Chatham.
He helped me and we got them all lined up and we tied a lead on the back
horse to bring in to the tail of the front horse. We went down the road,
so I had a buckskin colored horse and horses are like sheep, you get one
with an odd color they follow him better. And so I got as far as Beamington,
Illinois, that was about two thirds of the way to Edinburg. Well, I had
to water the horses. A fellow had a little grocery store there, all it
was was a house and a watering trough and this was at Beamington. He
helped me water them and get them tied together again. I left Chatham

Howard Berron 3 4
about 8:00 in the morning and I got to Edinburg with my twenty-one horses
about 4:00 in the afternoon. Then I caught the train from Edinburg to
Springfield and the Interurban train from Springfield to Auburn and my
job was through. Well, my mother as I said had died, and my father had
gone to St. Louis so I just decided that I was going to be in the draft.
I was only nineteen years old then and I would soon be called in the
draft and so I just went and got four of the guys to go with me. We all
went and joined the navy and we got as far as Peoria and the fellow said
to me, "Do you want to join the navy?" And I said, "Yes." "Well, you
better get downstairs and eat all the bananas you can and drink all of
the water you can because you aren't going to make the weight." I didn't
weigh about 130 pounds. Had to have 136, so I did and when we came back
I think he still gave me a pound extra and anyway I got into the navy.
1'11 never forget, the draft was going out of Peoria to the Great Lakes
in Chicago Training Camp and four of them got on the draft and I was left
there all alone by myself. And I was the instigator of the whole thing
and I felt pretty put out. But they put me up in the best hotel and I
got a ticket to the show. The next day was Sunday and they didn't have
the draft going out of there--they called it a shipment, a draft. And
they went Monday morning, they had another draft going to Great Lakes, so
I went with them. Well, I went to the navy.
Q: What was Great Lakes like at that time?
A: It was a training station for the sailors.
Q: Did you have wooden barracks?
A: Oh, brick barracks.
Q: Nice barracks?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your training, what did it consist of?
Q: Apprentice Seaman, Seaman and I went through what they call the
Coxman School, C-o-x-m-a-n. Coxman School. I was shipped out after six
weeks of training. I was shipped to Erie, Pennsylvania and I boarded the
- U.S.S. Essex that was a training ship. So was the train out of Great
-9
Lakes. Then I was sent to board ship, Blueridge Troop Ship, troop ship
called the Blueridge and after that. . . .
Q: How large was a ship like that?
A: A passenger ship. On the Great Lakes. Had to cut twenty feet off of
the bow and about eight feet off of her stern and we had to take it round
through the lakes and up to Quebec and that's when I ran in terrible cold
weather up in Quebec, Canada. Then we got to the Boston Navy Pard, I was
transferred to destroyers. And our duty then was to take care of the
convoy, we kept watch out for the submarines, to keep them from destroying
our convoy of men and food and everything we were shipping over to England
and France.

Howard Herron 3 5
Q: Did you see any submarines?
A: Oh, yes I saw lots of submarines. We dropped depth charges but we
didn't know whether we got on, if we dropped depth charges, if we saw the
big oil slick, we knew we got them. If we didn't see an oil slick, well,
we weren't sure if we had them, I never was, I was scared. We got
through all right.
Q: Were you ever attacked?
A: Oh yes. We had a man that always stayed in the crow's nest way up
high on a ship and he would have glasses. If he would see a periscope
anywhere--once in a while some guys would decide that they would just
want to see them shoot. They were all young fellows, full of hell, some
of them were more than full of hell. . . . I was glad when it was all
over.
Q: How long were you out at a time?
A: The first time we went clear across, carried the convoy across and
headquartered in France and we would come back with oil and water and
food. Then come back with another convoy about halfway and they would
meet a convoy coming from the States and we would take over the care for
them and they would take over the care of us so we just stayed in France
back and forth, we always got halfway across. That began to get
monotonous so. . . .
Q: That's a lot of water, isn't it?
A: A lot of water between here and France.
Q: What time of year was this?
A: Mostly the wintertime.
Q: The winter?
A: Fall and winter. We were halfway across the ocean coming back and we
got word that we were missed and we were very happy. So we got into
Boston then, we'd change ships, I can't tell you all the names of them.
We'd take these destroyers and run them awful hard and they had to be put
in the dry dock about three or Sour months to get the particles scraped
off of the bottom, get them general overhauled for safety and. . . .
Q: How long were you in the navy altogether?
A: Twenty-two months and twenty-two days. I have my discharge up here
in my lockbox.
Q: What kind of pay did a seaman get in those days?
A: Oh, about a dollar a day. I think it was $36 a month.

Howard Herron 36
Q: What was your food like?
A: Good food, we had good food.
Q: When you stopped at France, did you have time to see any of the
country?
A: Well, yes, we would go to shore at night and take a chocolate bar or
a cake of soap and trade that for food and anything else in France because
they didn't have any soap or chocolate candy or nothing like that. If
you wanted a date with a gal all you had to do was to have a chocolate
bar. I was sent out with the receiving ship, what they called a receiving
ship, nothing but a camp. So I got a job, a fellow named McPherson and I
was in the Boston navy yard. They sent us what they called subsistance,
where they gave us $2.50 a day to live on the outside, and I got a job
working at a restaurant just outside of the navy yard. This fellow that
owned that, he and Vic McPherson, they were Commissary Stewarts in the
navy and they wanted me to stay there and go to work at the bar for the
restaurant. They owned five restaurants, so I stayed there until I got
homesick.
Q: How long were you there?
A: I stayed there about three months, and I told them I had to get home
and settle in the States.
Q: Did you make lots of friends in the navy?
A: Oh, yes, but I've forgotten all of them now. They all scattered.
Q: Did you keep in contact with any of them afterwards?
A: Some of them every once in a while. They soon died out. They had
their home lives the same as I did. But anyway I went back to this when
I got out of the navy, I left McPherson and them. I quit and I come back
home here and I went to Divernon. I worked a while and then I quit the
mine and then I went to get a job at Mr. Latham's selling cars. I told
you about before.
Q: Can I ask you a few more things about the coal mine? I've never been
in one and it is hard for me to imagine how back in those days they had
equipment to dig that deep, what did they use and how did they go about
that?
A: Well, they didn't dig, they would drill a hold, they'd drill in there
and then they'd shoot a little shot here. Then they would put a deeper
shot in here, a hold about that big around and fill that full of powder
and then would tamp that with clay and wet paper or whatever and there
would be a shotfire come around at night. All the men in the daythe
would be quitting and going home and there would be nobody in the mine
but a couple of shotfires. They would come around in the afternoon and
count your shots and they would go around and light these shots on the
run. They would light the shots and keep on running and that would all
be blown out and that would blow that coal out.

Howard Herron 3 7
Q: That must have been a very dangerous thing.
A: It was, but the shotfires were dangerous, not ours. The shot-fire
had the most dangerous part of it.
Q: What kind of money or compensation did they get for that type of
work?
A: I don't know, but they got a pretty good wage, but, they couldn't
build mansions with it. But anyway. . . .
Q: Now that's how they got the veins of mines. How did they get down
that deep to start with then? How did the mules get all the way down
there?
A: They had just like an elevator, you'd go straight down.
Q: What did they dig those with? By hand or did they have machines that
did that?
A: No, hand, Just dug them by hand. They had to dig a hole there as
big as twelve by twelve straight down. They hoisted the dirt and all
that stuff out and then when they got to the coal vein, they started
spreading out. They'd bring the coal out and up. They had a cage and
they would put a mule in the cage. A man would stand on the top of the
cage and have a rope around the mule's head--and this mine over here was
a small mine--and they had to turn his head halfway to get him and bring
him up and put him in pasture. They did the same proce-dure when they
put him down in the ground. The mule, when he went to a coal mine, he
was there maybe for a year before he ever got out. They had a barn down
there and a manger and hay and lots of mice and rats down there. They
went down with the hay and stuff.
Q: What kind of light though, was there a light in that barn?
A: No, you had a light on your head.
Q: Well, the mules were in pitch black I suppose?
A: They got so where they told me the mules could see. I think they
could see in the dark like a cat after they were there so long. Anyway
that was very crude to what it is now. Now they don't, the coal mines
are dug on a slope and everything comes out on a conveyor. If you ever
have a chance to go to Pawnee you can see a conveyor coming up out of
there going right over across 104 to the big power plant, and it goes
right from the coal mine to the power plant, and goes into the power
plant and the power is sent to Chicago, but that's all modern stuff now.
If I was to go in the coal mine now, I'd be lost.
Q: Did they get the coal off of the walls more or less with picks?
A: They would shoot it. They'd blow that out and like this is the wall
here, we don't call it a wall, they called it a face then and you'd go in
this way.

Howard Herron 38
Q: Straight in?
A: No, angled.
Q: Angled.
A: And you'd put the powder and everything and that would blow that
right out that way.
End of Tape Two, Side One.
A: Then that would be a vein. They would take that, shoot on that side,
they would drill a hole on that side and only deeper, deep as this would
allow, and then that would be a vacancy here for this shot to come up.
Otherwise it would be on what they call on the solid. That's when you
had a shot on the solid, that was a blow, that would blow a shot back and
create a dust and have a dust explosion. And that's what Panther Creek
Mine--I told a fellow there one day I says I was driving, I was riding
trips for Bill Daugherty.
Q: You were riding what?
A: Trips.
Q: Trips?
A: Trips, that is a trip of cars, coal mine cars. They were being
loaded.
Q: You told this fellow?
A: I told him, 1 said, "If I ever saw a shot as that one, that's one."
He says, "Oh, what do you know about coal mining, Mr. Old Fellow you?" I
said, "I know enough that I have got my license to dig coal if I wanted
to and that looks like it's on the solid to me." And he sayd, "Oh, go on
and tend to your business," and so I did. And that shot was a windy shot
and that's the one where that night Lon Coski got killed.
Q: Lon Coski.
A: Yes.
Q: How old a person was he?
A: Oh, he was about 45-50 years old. He was a shotfire.
Q: And he had a family here in Auburn.
A: He lit the shot that killed him, but then the other fellow packed the
shot, he drilled them and tamped the shot that killed him. Anyway. . . .

Howard Herron 3 9
Q: When someone was killed like that. . . .
A: The mine stops.
Q: Do they have some sort of signal or whistle or anything that they
used?
A: No, just when the driver would come in from the bottom with the empty
cars, he'd say, "Well, so and so got killed or there was a big fall and a
roof came in in some places, got several men under." Everybody would
quit and they would all go home.
Q: Well, didn't they have rescue squads in those days that would go back
and try and get these people out?
A: Yes, there was, they were crude, they would just work day and night
to try and get men out. To get their brother coal miners out,
Q: Did the families come and stand outside and wait?
A: No, they never did around here. Now, they did at Cherry Mine when
that was a terrible explosion up at Cherry, Illinois. I saw pictures of
them standing around, people waiting and waiting to see if their husbands
were going to come out.
Q: Was there ever any compensation for the families of these miners, I
mean what did they do then?
A: There was some, but nothing compared to. . . . That's why the
miners had the strike here so often, to get better conditions. That's
why Virden had a mine down there that brought in a bunch of Negroes that
were going to run that mine, and that's what they call the Virden Massacre
or something. White coal miners around Virden and Auburn went down
there. They had barricades built of hay bales and everything where they
were going to house these Negroes, they started shooting when the train
backed up. The engineer just pulled the train out. They just left and
they never came back, so they gave that up as a bad job, the miners won
that fiasco or whatever you call it.
Q: Then there were unions back then in your day?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you belong to a union?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: What did you have to pay as a union member?
A: Oh about a dollar and a half or two dollars a year, a month maybe, a
dollar a month, something like that. That was in its infancy. It was a
hard struggle for the miners to get to where they have got to now. Now
the miners get good salaries. They live like gentlemen and they have
nice homes and they have nice families. They are staking another coal
mine out here by Lowder now.

1 Howard Herron 40
Q: Did you read in the paper just two weeks ago there was a bad mine
disaster in Virden that killed a young man. So they still do have
accidents.
A: Oh yes, but that was mostly the fault of the company. There's always
a squabble between the union and the company because the company would
take every advantage for their part and the union people had to Eight
for, stand up for their rights. I have a friend right now that works in
the mine and he makes about $50 a day. But he works and they produce
well, one man can produce about twenty times the amount of coal a day
that we used to do then back in the old days.
Q: When you worked at a coal mine here, did most of the people in this
town have coal type furnaces?
A: Yes, everybody did.
Q: And was there a company that delivered this coal to their homes?
A: No, anybody in town would, half a dozen or more men, what they called
draymen.
Q: Drayman? What is the word dray?
A: Well, d-r-a-y and m-e-n, I guess. They're teamsters, they were
draymen or teamsters and they had a team and a wagon and if you wanted a
load of coal you would meet him on the street and you'd say, "Hey, Dick,
get me a load of coal." They'd haul a load of coal and if you worked at
the coal mine, you give them your number and they would just charge you
and the union would take it off of your pay. That's the way you got your
coal.
Q: Were these wagons very big and sturdy?
A: Oh, they were just ordinary wagons. They would scoop it in and scoop
it out. Everybody had a coal shed and cob house or kindling house and
they had to. . . .
Q: I'm curious about the woman's side when these miners came home black
all over, with dust all over their clothes, did you have some place to
wash outside of the house?
A: Some of them had what you called summer kitchens. They would have
water warm for them and they would come and take a bath and you would
never know they were coal miners after they were home a while. Then, see
that's one thing that, where the unions had to fight, now they got wash
houses right at the mine and they are nice too. But they took their time
and strikes and everything, perseverance for the miners to fight for
their rights and compensation in case someone got hurt, the coal mine
would pay the doctor bills. But that took time and the coal miners had
to go a long ways before they got those conditions. But now they've got
very good conditions and there are not so many, I don't think there is
near as many casualties in the mine now as there used to be and they
don't have props. They used to have to prop coal up. Posts like that

Howard Herron 41
would hold that slick stuff from falling down. Now they don't do that.
They put a bolt up in there and they have a piece of slab iron and they
put that up there and it holds it up. I know if I was still a coal miner
today, I would get lost.
Q: I was always curious--aren't you taking a chance of digging down in
hopes that you'll find coal or was there some way that you could detect
that there was actually coal?
A: Oh, they know, they drill, the same way that they drill for oil.
They drill test holes and they get those casings, every time they take a
casing out they analyze it, see what it is. They know, they can tell how
deep that coal is and some places, I have seen them where the coal vein
was nine feet deep. The contour of a coal mine is similar to the contour
of the land above. You can tell where creeks are and they have hills
down in the coal mine. I used to drive a mule out here at Peabody Coal
Mine and when we were out at the southwest part of the underground, and
we'd get to the top of the hill and when we started down, well, I had
what they called spragues, about that big around and about that long.
And he'd slip that in the holes of the wheels and we'd slip that in there
and then we would just slide down and we'd slip that in there on two
wheels and it would just slide down. Two wheels were on the one side
running and we would put one sprague in the car and two and another and
depending on the size of the hill and you'd go down the hill and that
mule had to outrun that car to keep him from--he was an his own.
Q: Did mules get killed down there?
A: Oh, lots of times. Then you'd get on the back car and as a rule you
would hold your head down a little bit to kind of make a light for the
mule as much as you could. But then when you got down, you'd get off and
just jump on the front end and you would ride down this bumper there and
one foot on the chair here and one foot on the bumper and one hand on the
mule's rump. Sometimes those mules were mean and they would kick you.
Sometimes there were a lot of good mules and sometimes you would find a
mean one.
Q: Did you ever get kicked by a mule?
A: Oh, yes, I was kicked by a mule on the farm. That's their only
weapon.
Q: These lights you had on your hats, What were they, battery operated
or were they, . . .
A: They used to be what they called sunshine kind of a salve like, more
like a vaseline, that they would put in there and they had a big torch on
it and a baffle on the back so the flame wouldn't come over your head.
Q: A baffle?
A: A baffle over your head so that the flame, the torch wouldn't come
over your back over your head. And then they got to where they used
carbide lights, a little lamp about this big. And you'd unscrew a part

Howard Herron 4 2
of it and put about half full or two thirds full of carbide and screw it
up here. And then there was a little tank of water up here and you could
set that with the gauge and that water would drip down in to that and
that made the gas and you lit your gas and that was good light.
Q: You could make it brighter or dimmer?
A: Well, of course if you got too much water on it you would put it out.
You would learn to run your light.
Q: The carbide has an odor to it, doesn't it?
A: Stinky odor. But it furnished a good light, they were not real
bright lights. Tt was made of carbide gas you would burn the gas you
always had a cigarette lighter.
Q: I'm curious, was it terribly cold and damp in these mines?
A: Nice and warm, when I walked out that coal mine, out south, Peabody
Coal Mine--I know one morning I just dreaded to go, it was seven below
zero and 1 hoped night never would come. I had to walk home and there
was no way of transportation and you had to walk along the side of the
railroad to get back into Auburn. I had everything wrapped around my
head and everything else and that was when my mother was sick then. I
would get home and I would have to do the cooking for my dad and my
younger brother and get up at 4:00 in the morning or 5:00 and cook
breakfast and get ready to go back to the coal mine. You would have to
face that seven below zero and oh, I tell you, it was hell.
Q: But once you got down under there, it was warm?
A: Oh, everybody would hurry to get down, it was just like going into a
cellar. It was nice down there.
Q: Was coal dust kind of hard on the miners? Did they wear something
over their nose and mouths?
A: Some did and some didn't. hat's why now they have what they call
Black Lung. The coal miners have what they call a Black Lung now. They
finally got it the last few years, within the last four years or five,
Congress passed the law well--I got the Black Lung and we had to go--you
had to work in the mine so long and the doctor would send you up to the
hospital. You'd blow in a thing and then they would take your picture,
they seat back for me for four months after I did that, they sent one
into Baltimore, Maryland. I got a letter and they wanted me to come back
to the Memorial Hospital, they wanted a second picture of my lungs. So I
did and they took a second picture of my lungs and they would give you, I
collected about, well, they pay from the start, I forget how much money.
But it's a sub- stantial pay and they still, if any medicine pertains to
my lungs, why they pay for the medicine. Your Black Lung check comes
every day. That's a law. That's where the union comes in. These men
were just dying with TB and asthma and emphysema and everything. And
they finally got this law through, this Black Lung Law, every ton of coal
that comes out of the coal mine wherever it be, has to pay so much tax

Howard Herron 4 3
into the government for this Black Lung. The widow women, a lot of widow
women was left, their husbands died from it, they get-- lot of women
right here in Auburn--they get Black Lung from their husband. Now after
they awarded me the Black Lung, I got a letter from them if I would prove
up that I was married, that I would add so much too for my wife. And so
I did and they well, after she passed away I had to tell them and they
took off what they was giving for her. It was a wonderful thing. Black
Lung.
Q: Are you taking medicine for that?
A: I take Quinidine. I take one pill every morning.
Q: Do you have any trouble catching your breath?
A: No, I had a heart attack. I had a heart attack in 1949 and I was in
the hospital in Milwaukee. I was on my way to Canada and it hit me there
and I was in the hospital three months and for two months I couldn't get
out of bed. I got over it I guess and I am still taking medicine.
Q: I understand that during World War T there was a terrible flu
epidemic, do you remember anything about that?
A: Yes, of course I was in the navy then and I was appointed police of
the ship and you worked four hours on and about eight hours off. And
then you'd go back four and on the ship where the heat comes from the
boiler room up there, they would pile up there, the men would and cold
and sick and everything else. And they had their pea coats on, that was
a heavy blue coat, and the captain would say, "Get them off of there, get
them off of that thing." You would get them off of it and you'd go away
and come back and they would be piled up there again just like they were
before, and you had to do it again, and you hated to do it but. . . .
Q: They were trying to keep warm?
A: Yes, but the captain wanted them off of there, and if they did have
the flu they would give it to the other guy. I remember our Chief Mate,
Red Griep was his name, we pulled into New York and we had to take him
over to the side in a stretcher and put him in a boat and take him to a
hospital. And he looked up and smiled and he said, "Look out now, don't
you drop me." If we would have dropped him we would have dropped him in
the water of course, but we took him and he did die that night. But I
was very fortunate, I went through it all and I never got sick. When I
was at Great Lakes I had a job of taking eight men, firing squad were
called there, pallbearers, and there was more than eight men, there was a
firing squad. I'd take an eight men, firing squad and pallbearers and
color guards and they would meet us at the Great Lakes Training Station.
This was my first job in the navy. They would take us to some funeral
home and we had some sailors died and we would conduct a funeral there
and then. They would take us in taxicabs to the next funeral. We'd make
four funerals a day. That was my job for a while. I was glad to get rid
of that job. They had an awful nice meal for us at the place where we
would go. I saw them lined up at Great Lakes, they died like flies.
They didn' t have boxes to send them in. They would just cart them up.

Howard Herron 44
It was below zero and they would have a tag on them, a big tag with their
name and number and where they lived and everything else about him, the
father's name, on his big toe and they would cart them along.
Q: That must have been very frightening.
A: A dead man would never hurt you.
Q: But I mean to know that so many were dying.
A: Well, you just hoped you wouldn't get it. I can say knock on wood, I
never even got a cough all during the flu epidemic. And then I, after I
got home here, I asked, "Where's Mr. Wineman here, where's Mr. Arbuckle
who used to run the livery barn, Wineman and Arbuckle." They said, "Hey,
they kicked the bucket with the flu." Well, the story and they told me
that after the fellows that drank a lot of liquor, if they got the flu,
it killed them. And if you got the flu and you weren't a drinker, they
would give you whiskey and it cured the flu. That's what their best
remedy the doctor would give you, they'd give you whiskey. That's what
they tell me. The flu epidemic was practically old when I got discharged
and got home.
Q: There were other boys that left Auburn when you did for the navy.
Did you see them or did they make it through?
A: Yes, they all, one fellow, he got color blind. He got chickenpox and
got color blind and he's dead now and they are almost all dead, the five
that went together with me.
Q: But they didn't die during the war?
A: No, I know one died in California, he was in the plumbing business.
And Fritz Ruski, that was a friend of mine, he and I, Ruski and I, stayed
together. A fellow name of Harris, he was captain of a PT boat, that's
one of these here guard boats. And there was Ruski, he went to
gunnersmen's school and I went in the cocksman school at Great Lakes and
we could see each other. He was on the second floor and I was on the
first floor so we had to sleep in hammocks and they didn't have no beds.
Everything was hammocks aboard ship too, you had a hammock, there wasn't
any room for a bed. You had to learn to lace your hammock and put it up
there and you got graded on everything. You had to learn it all. So
then Grider, a fellow by the name of Grider, he died with a heart attack,
he was, and Hank Harms, he died here just a while back, a couple, about
three years ago I guess. He died, and Fritz. . . .
Q: Was there a Fritz?
A: Fritz Ruski.
Q: How did it affect the people that stayed at home, were they all
trying to conserve or. . . .
A: Oh yes, they did everything, they knitted sweaters for us and sent us
sweaters and gloves. And they, I know the KP Lodge here, they sent me an

Howard Herron 45
Illinois watch, somebody stole it and they cut a hole in my hammock and
got it but that wasn't their fault. The KP Lodge sent everyone of us,
everybody that went from Auburn, a watch. There was a lot to do back
home here too. You had to keep the home fires burning and there was
supplies, they were keeping the supplies for the army and the navy both.
In them days, cannons over in France and everything, cannons were drawn
by horses and mules and that's where Doc Woolover from Edinburg would
line up these horses and he was selling them over to France, that was a
business for him. I told you about that.
Q: Was your father still working in the coal mine while you were in the
service?
A: No, he was, yes, he was a fireman. He made steam to run the machinery.
Q: Did you get terribly homesick while you were away?
A: No, not too bad, oh, I never, the first night I laid in my bunk and I
cried pretty much. I was in the middle of the ocean and it was rough and
I said, ''What did I get into?"
Q: id you ever get seasick?
A: Oh, yes, not very often.
Q: It's terrible, isn't it?
A: You get used to it, but I remember I was very fortunate, I was
transferred to four different ships eventually. One station and four
different ships and every place that I went to Dr. Woods from Cincinnati,
Ohio, he was just a civilian doctor who volunteered for army work. He
was either on that ship when I got there or I was on the ship when he was
transferred there and we got to be good friends and I would go down in
what they called Sick Bay. He would say, "Open your mouths and you can
say aaah." He was a pretty good friend. I, my hair was starting to come
out, and he said just get some straight alcohol and he got it for me and
every day put that alcohol on it and I did and I still got a little hair.
Q: You think that helped?
A: Well, it must have. He told me to and I did it.
Q: Howard, I'd like to ask you about some events that happened in your
life. What year were you married?
A: I was married in 1919. I'll have to go back on that.
Q: Where did you meet your wife?
A: At her house.
Q: She lived here in Auburn.

Howard Herron 4 6
A: When I got home from the service I was sitting out there at the park
with some fellows and a cousin of mine lived out near, out south of town.
Bert Jenkins was his name and he come over and he said, "Howard, I need a
man to help with the thrashing." And he said, "I would like for you to
come out and help." And I said, "well, I don't have any overalls or
nothing to wear, just got white shirts and blue pants, blue serge pants."
And he said, "Oh, come on. You can always wash them or get new ones."
And I said, "Well, I'll try. I'm not used to the sun," and I wasn't
tanned at all then. So I went out with him and he gave me, hitched up
with a mule and a young mule tied to the old mule, and he sent me over to
J. C. Nuckols' house to help thrash. Now I rode a bundle wagon over
there. That happened to be my wife's father farmed that and that's where
I met my wife.
Q: What's a bundle wagon?
A: They used to buy combined wheat and they didn't combine it they just
binded it. They bound it with a string and tied them all up and put a
cap on one and they would let it sit there until it was thrashed. You
would have to put those bundles on a wagon and haul them into the thrash
machine.
Q: How much did one of those bundles weigh?
A: Oh anywhere from ten to fifteen pounds, twenty.
Q: Depending on whether they were dry or wet?
A: It had to do with how heavy the yield of wheat was. I don't know
what you call the stem of the wheat. The grains was in there and then
the machine ran through it and shoveled all the grain out into the wagon
and then it was sold.
Q: So your wife lived there on the farm?
A: And of course we had dinner there and I met her then. So they called
me "The Dude" because I had a white shirt and all of the rest of them had
overalls and blue chambray shirts. And out in front of her house was
beautiful maple trees and the field that we were loading the wheat out of
was south of the house. They would come by there and I was head of, they
were ahead of me a couple of wagons, and I stopped there in the shade and
the team was hot too. And my wife and her sister and Buelah Shutt came
out and wanted to how if I would like to have a donut and I said yes.
And they had iced tea and donuts. That's where I met my wife, right then
and there.
Q: How long did you court her before you married?
A: Oh about a year. Her brother was a good friend of mine too. I sold
Fords then and I got a job, that's when I got the job selling Fords, when
I wanted a car. 1. was getting a car furnished and every time on Sunday I
was always invited out for dinner. Her brother would invite me and so, I
guess, every evening, all the boys and girls around the neighborhood all
gathered there and they had a sandwich of some kind. And they would fly

Howard Herron 4 7
out and go to different places, shows, dances. I was married the eighth
day of February and 1 will have to look in the Bible for the exact year.
Q: How old were you?
A: I was about, we would have been married about sixty years now. I'm
eighty-three.
Q: You were about twenty-three years old.
A: Twenty-three or twenty-four years old.
Q: Where did you get married?
A: There was a Methodist preacher in Carlinville. We went to
Carlinville to get our license. It was in February and my brother-in-law
had the flu. I went out to get her and I was rooming in that house right
across the street over here, Ms. Kitty McGinnis. I had rented a house
where Dr. ~ouse's dental office is now and I rented that house all furnished
from Mrs. Clark. I had it a11 ready so the day I was to get laarried, I
got up about 6:00 in the morning and took all my clothes over there and I
went out to her house to get her and then we went on to Carlinville. You
didn't have to have no doctor's certificate to go through that so we went
to Carlinville to the Court House and got a license to get married. I
asked him if there was a Methodist minister around and he said, "Yes, I
got one right down the street about a block." He said, "1'11 call him up
for you.'' I said, "DO," and he called him. And so we went down and he
called a Negro for the witness and the Methodist preacher performed the
ceremony and we got in the car and we went back uptown. They had a
bakery shop there and they had little angel food cakes about that big
around (indicating) and so I got one and coffee and that was our wedding
cake. So then we got to St. Louis to honeymoon. I didn't have enough
money to take a train, so we went to St. Louis and we went to the shows.
I never will forget she wore rayon stockings and they slipped down. Most
of the stores, the buildings, were closed, business houses, except we had
to go about two blocks from the hotel to the theater. She would get back
in there and pull up her stockings and I'd stand in front of her. We
went to the Orpheum Theater there and then we came back and we stayed all
night at the hotel. I said the next day, I said, "Why are we staying
here for, spending money for a hotel when we got a home?" And she said,
"Well, that's all right, I'd rather go home." And I said, "Let's go."
So we got home and that night they had a big snowstorm on the way home
and had a big chivaree.
Q: What's a chivaree?
A: Well, everybody in the neighborhood, anybody gets married or anything,
they got shotguns and tubs and horns and everything else and they all
gathered around. And then when the wedding supper comes in they all come
out behind the rooms and trees and everything else and made all kinds of
noise and they always had a big feed. They brought a lot of presents
too. That was the starting of our wedding and my wife and . . . . let me
look here in the Bible. . . . T was married the eighth day of February,
1923, Carlinville, Illinois.

Howard Herron 4 8
Q: Do you want to talk with me about some trips you might have taken
during your married lif el
A: Oh yes, we took a trip when Tommy was a little fellow.
Q: Tommy's your son?
A: Yes.
Q: When was he born?
A: He was born the fourth day of--my father-in-law gave us this book
when we were married--he was born September the fourth, 1927. At St.
~ohn's Hospital.
Q: So you took a trip with him?
A: Well, not then, I don't know, several years after that. Five or six
years after that. We took a trip up to Detroit and went to Canada and
went all through Canada and down through Buffalo, New Pork. That was our
honeymoon really.
Q: Did you see Niagara Falls?
A: Yes, we stayed all night right there and then we went to New York,
Pennsylvania, Virginia, Washington D.C., all through the National
Geographic Zoo there. And then we went on to Virginia and Kentucky,
through Tennessee and the Black Hills, and then we went back up to
Kentucky. My wife was born in Kentucky and we had cousins there and we
stopped there and I guess we stayed a week.
Q: That was a nice long trip then.
A: Yes, it was.
Q: And what did you travel in?
A: I had a new Plymouth automobile. I was selling them. I had my own
business. The next year after I sold the Chevrolet business-- we went on
the twenty-second of July, 1927. I sold my business and put the money in
all three banks and we went to California and went up to Washington. I
knew a fellow when he lived here on the farm. Mr. HunLey was his name
and I sold him a tractor, all farm tools and everything. He sold out and
moved to Longview, Washington, and he came back here on a visit and he
said, "If you ever come West, be sure to come and see me." I said maybe
I will. So we went out there and they treated us royally. His daughter
ran a grocery store right along the river there but I forget the name and
it was during the Salmon Run. These fishermen along there, his daughter
made arrangements for us to go with them on the Salmon Haul. So he and
she and I and Tom went along with these regular fishermen. They had two
boats. They'd start out this way; they would feed the nets out, and they
would go clear across that river, and they would float until the boats
came together, and the nets were together. They had an Oldsmobile motor
in the back of the boat and I sit there and would throw it in and out of

Howard Herron 49
gear. There would be fish that would come in there that would be three
feet long and they'd hit them over the head with a club. Big salmon and
they would roll them over. When they got the catch, they got the nets
all reeled in, then we pulled up along side a canning factory for fish.
A big ship, and these men sold this catch to the canning factory and they
would give them a check for it. They begged us to come and go with them
the next day again because they said that we brought them good luck.
They are very superstitious. But no, we didn't want to go any more.
They wanted me to stay there and they said, "If you'll stay here, I'll
furnish you all the trucks and everything else." There they didn't burn
coal, they burned wood. All I would do was to supply wood for the winters
and so my wife said, "No way, too far from home." But before we got
there we went through Yellowstone Park and we watched Old Faithful blow.
Then Tom wanted to go to the toilet and I took him over to the place and
there was a building there, a big building. There was a bear coming from
the south and one coming from the west going east and they were going to
meet. I was a little ways from them and I started growling and I'd go,
11
R-r-,
I I
r-r-r. And I said to Tommy, "Watch those bears." Just as soon
as they met they just started running. And then we went over to the
restaurant there, a place in the park and I ran into a fellow, a friend
of mine from Divernon. He started a southern route up through California
and Arizona and around that way and I was going up the northern way, and
anyway that was before we got around in Washington. I should have told
you about that sooner, but anyway we went back down to San Francisco and
I had a friend there. And we rented an apartment right next to him and
we stayed there a week. We went from there on to Hollywood and we didn't
know we was in Hollywood and we got us an apartment for twenty-five
dollars a month.
Q: Did you see any movie stars while you were there?
A: Oh yes, a friend of mine, a school mate, he was selling Fords there
and we--I can't think of his name--he was a notorious actor and some
wealthy woman married him. We delivered a new car to him on Christmas
Day. We stayed there all that winter and I got a job selling the
automobiles and of course the depression had hit then. 1 got a letter
from my brother-in-law and he said all the banks here went broke and I
had a job selling cars to Harms Chevrolet Company. I was the leading
salesman and I sold one new car and one used one. But those fellows who
owned the business there, they gave us all a turkey for Christmas. That
was Wilmington, California, just halfway between Long Beach and San
Pedro, California. So then at Wilmington there was a girl that used to
be neighbors. She was married to a fellow from here, Casey Jones we
called him. He was an engineer at the mine and he and his wife, they
moved to California and they had the filling station there. I'd loaf
over there and my wife would be there visiting with her of an evening.
So in 1933 we left there and I'm most certain it was 1933.
End of Tape Two, Side Two
Q: Howard, we're talking about your trip to California and you were just
explaining to me about an earthquake.

Howard Herron 5 0
A: That was at Long Beach, California. We were on the train and left
the day before. We didn't get in the earthquake. We weren't there when
it happened but it was bad.
Q: Did you hear from your friends that were still there?
A: Oh, yes, and they were all right. They weren't hurt or anything.
This was around about five or six miles around there. Long Beach was
where the damage was done. That's where they brought this steamship,
they got her there now and people pay to go out and see it. We got home,
and my father-in-law and my brother-in-law, they met us at the Wabash
Railroad Depot and we got home and we were glad to get home.
Q: No place like home.
A: A friend of mine, Jack Pierce, came down, heard I was in town, and he
came down and said, "~ave you got any money, Howard?" I said, "I got
$300." He said, "Let me have half of it." I said, "Okay," and he said,
"I don't have enough money to make change." I dedided to sell my car, I
had a Buick car, and sold it in California to a doctor to get home on.
And I had a $1,000 Government bond originally in the Farmers Bank
Building lock box in Springfield. They wouldn't let my brother-in-law
have a key to get in and get it out so I had to do it myself. If I
hadn't had that $1,000 bond I would have had to stand in the soup line
with the rest of the people. But I got it out just as soon as I got
home. Jack Pierce didn't keep that money not over two weeks and he gave
it back and wanted to pay me interest. I said, "No, forget it," cause we
were good friends.
Q: Well, things were bad here in Auburn?
A: Oh, yes, they had soup lines. People don't know what hard times was.
Oh, I want to tell you. I've got a piece of script that we used, script
for money and I got some in there. Just a two dollar and a half one, I
think. They had a clearing house in Springfield and if you were worth
it, you could sign a note for it and they would give you $100 worth 05
script. Now, you used that script. It was just like money. I'll show
it to you after while. They took that and used that for money and each
fellow would endorse it. If I owed you two dollars and a half, why, I
would endorse it and give it to you and you're paid. Then you could go
on and pay somebody else you owed and finally it would get back to the
clearing house and that's the way we did business for a while.
Q: Would that be sort of like the beginning of writing checks as we know
it today?
A: Oh, no. Well, I guess maybe it was. I don't know but 1'11 get one
of them and show you right now.
Q: Okay.
A: The depression was the mines closed down, a lot of them, they had no
coal to sell, no place to sell the coal, they didn't work steady and they
had soup lines. The Miner's Union, for instance, they went in and they'd
have a soup kitchen over here.

Howard Herron 5 1
Q: Where did they have that?
A: That was where Rua's store is now. And the people would just line up
there and go to get soup, but we didn't have to because I had that $1,000
bond.
Q: Did most people have their own gardens and try to raise their own
stock?
A: Oh, yes. When I, my father, we always had about four or five pigs
and we had a cow and we'd butcher those pigs. Mr. Billy Alberts and
Butch Hahn, they would come to our house and all we'd have to do is have
the wood ready. They would come and kill those hogs, and have their
stomachs strung up on the poles, and have them dressed, and the lard
rendered and the sausage made, and ready to leave for home by 4:00 in the
afternoon, but they'd get there about 4:30, 5:00 in the morning. Before
we got up they'd shoot those hogs and have them dressed and scalded and
everything. And then we'd have to make a date that year for the next
year. Say if it was the twelfth of December, we'd have them for the
twelfth of December, we'd have them for the twelfth of December the next
year. Everybody, that was their business was butchering hogs. Of course
now you can't even. Why, I went over here at the butcher place, the
locker, and I wanted to buy a couple of hog's heads. My sister-in-law
makes the best head cheese you could ever eat and they said, the guy
said, "I can't sell you any. Anything that's been shot with a lead
bullet, the state won't let them eat it." I said, "That's a bummer.
They eat them all their lives and the pioneers and everybody else that's
the way they killed the game was with a rifle."
Q: Well, did the people try to help each other pretty much?
A: Oh, yes, when we butchered the hogs, well my brother and I had a
little wagon and Dad would fix it all up. We went down the street
distributing liver to all the neighbors, whoever wanted liver, and then
when they butchered they gave us some. See. Because we wouldn't all
butcher at the same time, you get tired of the liver, liver everyday.
And I told you about the smokehouse, how they used it to cure that meat.
Q: Yes. Well, since the mines closed down, was there enough coal for
people to keep warm in the winter for here in Auburn?
A: Oh, yes. There was--one of them would stay. As a rule, you filled
your coal house in the fall, and a lot of them cut wood and some of them
burned wood too.
Q: Did any of them lose their homes?
A: Oh, yes. And I bought a house when the banks ran broke and that was
from a result of this depression. We call this a depression. This ain't
no depression and they blamed poor old Carter for it. He didn't have no
more to do with it than you and I did. I bought a house from the First
Federal Savings and Loan, a building and loan in Springfield for $400 and
all I had to do was just pay the payments on it. I had to pay nothing
down and two or three years later I sold it for $3,000. But I put a new
furnace in it. Then they had this building here, this American Legion

Howard Herron 5 2
building and we bought that for $250. This whole block here and of
course we remodeled that building there. So that's how times was tough.
Q: Did you live in the American Legion Home?
A: No, no. 1 bought a home for $1500, a nice place up there and I sold
it for $4000 to Doc Surface and it's a nice bungalow. I bought it at an
auction. See after the receivers, all these fellows who went broke and
these merchants and banks went broke, these mortgages were due. They
couldn't collect the mortgages and everything so they, some man, I forget
his name now, he was the overseer of all of it. They had an auction sale
and sold all these houses at auctions and I bought two of them at auctions.
And I bought one, this one over here, and bought that from the First
Federal. I didn't have to have any money to buy that, and this one over
here. I bought with the money on it. And the Building and Loan started
again and they loaned me money to buy that, I bought another one up in
the west part of town from old man Garver and I sold it later on.
Q: Did you rent this property out?
A: No, well, yes, I rented the Garver property out but T sold it to Mr.
Ward, the retired Methodist Minister. One of the houses I sold to Doc
Surface and then Marie Riehle, my wife and I and her mother, they took
over the operating of the Commercial Hotel where Marie is. Marie was
traveling with her husband and so we kept it about a year. I give it up
because I went back in the Ford business.
Q: But you ran the hotel business there for a year?
A: Just about a year, yes. My wife and her mother and I still had a
partner with Schuster in the Ford agency.
Q: Did your wife and mother do the cooking there?
A: Oh, yes, they did the cooking and made the beds and everything else
in there. They hired help, a girl that lived out in the country,
Florence Perkin was her name, and she'd come in and help work.
Q: Do you remember what kinds of things were being done through the WPA
here in Auburn.
A: That came later on.
Q: That came later on?
A: Oh yes, this pavement was laid here.
Q: Around the square?
A: Around the square. *
Q: About what year do you think that was?

Howard Herron 53
A: Oh, 1933 or 1934, I know the water works was put in here, city water
was put in here 1934. I got a job with timekeeping for the contractor
that put it in but the PWA loaned the city the money to do it.
Q: I see. Before that everybody was pumping water from wells?
A: Yes, had their own well and you had a square box on the top of it, of
your well platform and you'd have spike nails driven around and ropes and
you'd lower your butter down in there and your milk down in that well to.
0 . .
Q: Keep it cool?
A: Keep it cool and I remember my mother lost her false teeth in there
in that well and we had to pump that well dry. My brother was the littlest
one, he went through that hole in the box and he went down and Paul, that
was his name, and he went down and found mother's false teeth. She
scalded them and cleaned them off and went right along, nobody ever heard
of it.
Q: Didn't that take a lot of work pumping that dry?
A: Oh yes. We just had to pump day and night because the water kept
running in but we finally we got a--my father had a thrash machine wagon,
tank that they hauled water for the thrash machine. We put that big hose
down there and then we'd get on that and we'd have that pumping and then
we'd have the regular pump too. We never would have got it dry if we
hadn't had that pump on that wagon. But now, later on we got gasoline to
do that pumping. My brothers, we had to do it the hard way.
Q: What was a woman's routine like back in those days? Did she have to
get up pretty early and pump the water and heat it up?
A: Well, course, T had it a little different. I had to cook and
everything else. I worked at the mine and I'd get up about 4:30 and I'd
build a fire in the cook stove. I'd fry potatoes and sausage and stuff
like that and then I'd fix my dinner bucket: for my dad and I. My brother,
Paul, he had to fend for himself when he got up.
Q: What was a dinner bucket like? What did you have in it?
A: Well, there was two sections. It was around this way and then there
was a section that fit like a double boiler only it had a bail to it.
And our water, we carried the water in the lower part that we had to take
in the mine and have to drink. And then the upper part was for the food
and we put a lid on and then a bail on there.
Q: Did you take sandwiches or did you take soup or what did you take?
A: No, just sandwiches and pie and cake and things like that. And
water.
Q: Did women back in those days so all their own baking?

Howard Herron 5 4
A: Yes, mostly, they used to have an interurban track, that used to go
around town here. A car went every hour and they used to ship from
Hartman's Bakery in Springfield. They used to ship baskets full, great
big wicker baskets full of bread for the grocery stores here. They had a
bakery shop started later on then but my mother before she got sick, she
was one of the best bakers. Whenever there was something to do with the
church, well, she'd always furnish the bread and her bread was all spoken
for before we got there. They used to make chili sauce and pickled and
canned everything. Everything was canned, they didn't have any canned
goods like they have now.
Q: When your wife and your mother-in-law ran the hotel, did they had to
cook three meals a day and work a11 day ling at it?
A: Yes, we had a telephone. A big sleet storm come through here and
broke all the wires down and the telephone company, telegraph along the
railroad. They stayed there and they'd travel clear from Girard in order
to get to stay here at the hotel and they'd cook everything and they
served Sunday dinner.
Q: About how many people did they cook for?
A: Oh, about twelve on this crew that come through fixing the telephone
wires. They were here about three or four weeks and they cooked for them
all the time.
Q: About how many rooms are in that hotel?
A: I think there's twelve rooms upstairs.
Q: Do you remember the terrible fire back in 1910 that burnt that side
of the square down?
A: I remember to the extent that we saw it on the way to school. We
seen it smoking and we hurried out. I remember all the stores that used
to be there and everything. Oh, Henry Riehle, he had a butcher shop
there where ~i's Beauty Parlor is now and then the hotel was where the
hotel is now. It was a frame building. It burnt to the ground. And
then Shoot Armstrong had a bowling alley there and John M = K ~ had ~ a
grocery store along the east side there of the square and there was
Schlitz Saloon there, sold Schlitz beer. I don't remember who operated
that now but that's about the extent ot it.
Q: Does anybody know how that fire started?
A: No. I never did hear. I wouldn't know.
Q: What were the fire departments like in those days?
A: Oh, I can't hardly tell you. They had two wheels, it was on kind of
a wagon like and there was a big bar across here. There was a big brass
pump in here and there was one on each side. About four men would get on
this side and four on that side, then it would go up and down.

Howard Herron 55
Q: Oh, they had to pump?
A: They pumped the water for the Eire and the wagon. There was a great
big wagon that held the hoses up and the first wagon--the first man that
got a team of horses there, and got it hooked on to the fire department,
he got $2.00 for hauling the fire engine to the fire.
Q: Oh, so the volunteers had to provide the horses too?
A: Yes, well, they'd just grab any horse, any man that come along with a
wagon, then they'd go get the fire, Nine chances to ten, it was all
burned down when they got there.
Q: I undersand it started very early in the morning.
A: Well, we didn't know it. I was asleep and I didn't know anything
about it until we went to school and saw it still smoldering there.
Q: So there's been a great improvement in our fire department over the
years?
A: Oh, my yes, we have an up to date fire department here now. We've
got one station over on the east side of the square and one right in back
of the building here.
Q: It's still volunteer though, isn't it?
A: Yes, but they train and they've got good equipment, but it's
volunteer. I read one time where in Pennsylvania, had one of the most
outstanding volunteer fire departments there. And the volunteers there,
they had just like they have in Springfield, they all slept upstairs and
they'd slide down the poles and get--but they'd come and stay all night
there in their turns. Then the next night they weren't there and every
so often somebody would have to stay there and sleep twenty-four hours a
day. Then they'd get a relief in the morning, then they'd go to work. I
read that. That was in Hershey, Pennsylvania, the name of the town that
had such a outstanding volunteer fire department.
Q: Well, here in Auburn though the men go to their own homes and if
there is a fire, they have a special phone, don't they?
A: Oh yes. Now they have--each one of them carries a beeper on his
belt. And like my wife, she got up, she had a stroke, her memory was
bad. So I had to go to the toilet and I went in there and I saw her
light and I thought, "What was she up for at this time of night." And I
opened the door and she wasn't in there. It was eight below zero and I
called the police. They said they'd get the squad car and ride out. In
about thirty-five minutes I think from the time I called them, they found
her out in the northwest part of town. She didn't have nothing on but a
little hood thing around her head and no stockings and well, she was just
half way dressed. And when she come back her legs were just as red as
fire and she just made a beeline for her bed and crawled in the bed. I
thought sure she'd have pneumonia or something but it never even made her
sick.

Howard Herron 5 6
Q: Can I ask you if you remember a couple of fellows in town by the name
of James and Spurlock? Do you remember anything connected with them?
A: Well, right where the Senior Citizens Building is now, James used to
keep books for Latham Motor Company when I was there selling cars. And
so they got in business together, Spurlock and James. They were putting
in this water works then and Louis Riehle, drove up to get some gas.
James had it all planned, they had a new Ford in their showroom and James
was going to get that Ford and take off and leave town and take all the
money. Spurlock was there and he was sitting waiting for him in the car.
He had a little revolver. Inside the toilet up over head was a rack and
they just put a shotgun up there. James acted like he was going to the
toilet and he saw that rifle up there on the wall and he reached up and
got that shotgun and he came out and he shot Spurlock and killed him. He
just picked him up and threw him over behind some oil drums. Spurlock
was a little fellow and James, a big fellow. Then James saw Louis Riehle
out there with his truck waiting for him and to come and serve him gas.
And he (Riehle) heard the shots and he (James) knew he was caught, but he
just took that shotgun and that brake rod and just put it on his chest
right here and took this brake rod and pushed on the trigger and just
killed himself right then. Just that quick too. He killed James and
then killed himself. A lot of weird things happened at Auburn, any other
town. Every town is a Peyton Place, did you know that?
Q: Did you ever remember an Elmer Morris?
A: Yes, he was a good carpenter.
Q: Do you remember that day that he was struck by a train and killed?
A: No, I lived in Springfield then but I knew Elmer Morris real well and
he was a good friend of mine. He lived out here on the farm then, but he
worked at the mine. His son was a good carpenter later on. His son was
in school when that happened,
Q: Do you remember back in 1932 when more than four-hundred miners from
Auburn made a trip to Taylorville to oppose the $5.00 wage law that
Taylorville miners had to work under?
A: No, that was, you got the town wrong. They went to southern
Illinois. That was a form of what they called a PWA. It was pulling
away from the United Mine Workers. They went down there in trucks and to
stop the non-union fellows from working. They got a section down there
they wasn't looking for and they had to run all through the corn fields
and they took their trucks and everything else and finally they,
Progressive Mine Workers of America, that's was what it was. They was
forming, it wasn't Taylorville, it was southern Illinois.
Q: But there was quite a lot of miners that banded together and went
down there, is that correct?
A: Yes, yes. There wasn't over one-hundred fifty or two-hundred of them
at the most. Now that happened when we were in California.

Howard Herron 5 7
Q: I see.
A: But 1 knew all about it.
Q: They met up with some volunteer sheriffs and police workers that kind
of....
A: Protect the men down there.
Q: Damaged their cars?
A: Yes, Ben Lewis, they finally found his car and the State Police got
his car back for him. He loaned it to them. Ben Lewis was a farmer but
he loaned them his truck when they went down there. They went through
the cornfields and everything to get away from them. The folks that went
down from Auburn, they weren't prepared for all that gun work, They
wanted to do it peacefully.
Q: So they had quite some stories to tell when they got back?
A: Oh, I guess they did.
Q: Do you remember back in 1932 when the library was started here in
Au bur a?
A: Well, yes, but I didn't pay much attention ta it. I couldn't tell
you much about it.
Q: Do you remember where it was located?
A: No, I don't. See, after World War 11, that's when the Japs blew up
Pearl Harbor.
Q: Yes. Do you remember where you were the day that they bombed Pearl
Harbor?
A: I lived in Springfield and I belonged to the American Legion and my
son belonged to the Sons of the American Legion. I was going over there
to get him and they came running in and said they bombed Pearl Harbor.
There was an awful excitement then, I tell you. I lived in Springfield
then, I moved to Springfield and I sold cars for Latham Motor Company.
This war comes on, I volunteered for war work.
They sent me to the fairgrounds. There was an Army Air Force Depot and I
was on the Fire Department there. I got promoted to where I was Captain
of the Fire Department. And then when the war was over, the war lasted
about five or six years, and all that time we had so much lumber piled up
there, oh tanks, trucks and everything else. I moved out when my motherin-law
died and we moved out here to keep house for my father-in-law.
They wanted me to stay where I could be on call for the fire because
there was a lot of perishable stuff. All that airplane stuff was all
over the fairgrounds and I had, in order to keep my job, we moved back to
Springfield and I stayed there. A11 the the I kept thinking, "Well, now
there's going to be a good living between the guy that's got and the guy

Howard Herron 58
that wants because all this lumber around here was," there was no houses
built or anything else. So I went over to the library and I got books on
real estate and studied Fee Simple back in England and I wanted to start
selling real estate, so I did. I got a job selling real estate with Lou
Hannon and Matt Strum.
I sold the first house in Springfield, the first brick bungalow for
$15,000, and I was the %oy Wonder". After I sold this house I said,
"Now Nat, I'm ready for my commission," and he said, "I don't owe you
commission." He says, "1 ain't going to keep track of your social
security and stuff." He says, "Go over and get your license with the
state." I said, "Well, I can't do that yet till they have a class to
take the license exam." 1 went, I was prepared and I went over there and
took my exam and I didn't have a bit of trouble. In 1934 I don't remember
the date, I have my license hanging on my office in there now. You had
to have your license framed so everyone could see and so that's how I got
in the real estate business and I was in the real estate business ever
since. I'm the oldest real estate broker id Illinois, in Sangamon County,
and by age and most certain, I'm the oldest by years of experience. I
can tell you what year 1 got my license, my first license.
Q: Did you do pretty good in your real estate business?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Did you have a company of your own?
A: I was just my own man.
Q: You were your own man. Your office was in your home?
A: Right in there. I have to have it displayed there. My first office
was in Springfield. hat's over where they called it the Diane's Sweet
Shop there, Tom and Sally's Card Shop and I had a big neon sign, H. W.
Herron. Had a big neon sign right across there and Jim O'Brien went in
with me for companionship. Be had a phone and 1 had a phone but there
was no trick to selling. If I met somebody on the street and they'd say,
11
Hey Herron, how would you like to sell my property?" "What do you want
for it?" I says. "Well, I've got to have $4,000." I said, "Okay, maybe
I can sell it for six." See in them days, they'd take it away from you.
So it was a good business to be in.
Q: The real estate business isn't too good right now.
A: No, I haven't made $60 all year. That was when I appraised a house
here for the high school. Armando Tranquilli, he was over taxed and he
took it before the Board and Review and had his tax reduced. I didn't
want to charge him but he stuck a $20 bill in my pocket. I couldn't
fight him off.
Q: Do you remember any people by the name of Pulliam from Auburn?
A: Pulliam?

Howard Herron
Q: Robert Pulliam?
A: No. I guess there used to be a Pulliam over around Lowder.
Q: Well, a Robert Pulliam was one of the first settlers in Sangamon
County.
A: Oh, that's way before my time.
Q: Do you remember any important sports figures from Auburn? Anybody
that was in sports?
Q: Oh, yes. Auburn used to have a champion football team, in the state
of Illinois here.
Q: What year was that?
A: Oh, 1'11 tell you who can tell you more about that than anybody and
he can show you the pictures. He's got the pictures of the team. Duncan
Barbee.
Q: Duncan Barbee.
A: Tell him that I sent you down there.
Q: Okay. Do you know anybody named Bart Lewis?
A: Oh, yes. I just sold twenty-two acres of land out here where the
Beatty Implement Company was, for his (Bart Lewis') daughter. He was the
United States Champion Bubble Shot, shotgun and he--have you ever seen a
trap shoot. Clay pigeons where they had them shoot two out and he'd go
boom boom and get them both. He worked for the Western Cartridge Company
in Auburn. He traveled for them and he owned a farm out north of town.
They were quite chummy, him and his brother Bob, and they would go to the
picnics. Everybody would get drunk and everything and they'd bet who
could light a match with a .22 rifle. Bob would hold it in his mouth and
he would too. He'd just stand there and hold this match like that and
old Bob he'd stay off about fifty yards and he'd shoot that rifle and
light that match. And they charged so much to get to see how to do that.
They made a lot of money on the picnics, oh, they had all kinds of things
going on.
Q: I think I read where one time they gave away a Ford (at a picnic).
A: Yes, that was later on though. Max Lehman gave that. The funny part
of it was that it was a little crooked. ~essler's owned the Ford agency
here and they bought, the American Legion raffled off this Ford. Kessler,
he took about $50 worth of chances on it, the dealer that sold them the
Ford. And 10 and behold, they drew his number and it looked crooked but
it wasn't so Kessler gave it back to the American Legion and they did it
over again. They raffled off twice and that was where they got some of
the money to remodel this building here. I was the first and the only
charter member of the American Legion here that's living. The rest of
them are all dead. We formed the charter in 1922, 1 think it was. Right
after the service.

Howard Herroa 60
Q: Do you remember anything about the attempt to bomb Bill Pasniks'
home? What that could have been about?
A: Yes, well, Bill Pasniks killed a fellow. I don't know whether he did
it or not, I didn't know anything about that. But I know that Bill
Pasniks was playing rum over here at the Brendle Saloon and him and
Brendle got into a dispute over something. Pasniks went home and got his
gun, come back and shot Brendle who was sitting in a chair. Just shot
him right there and went on home, but he got out of it. In them days if
you had enough money, you could get out of anything.
Q: Did he have money?
A: Well, he sold his home and everything. He took off and he went to
Detroit and stayed up there with his son I think. But the house is still
there, they didn't bomb his house, but they might have, but I didn't know
anything about that bombing. I was living in Springfield then.
Q: Do you remember when the REA was formed? When they first had
electricity for the farmers?
A: Oh yes, that was about 1934, shortly after the depression, that was
along about PWA time. Franklin D. Roosevelt's the fellow for that.
Q: What did you think about Franklin Roosevelt?
A: One of the greatest presidents we ever had outside of Barry Truman.
He was one fine man. You have no idea how bad things were then. Nobody
had anything. The banks went all broke. He closed every bank in the
United States and they couldn't open them until they proved theirselves
liable and able to do business. And he started PWA, Public Works
Administration and he had the farmers producing so much pork that the
farmers couldn't get anything for their pork. They'd take these little
pigs and you'd just kill them and bury them. I remember when the
Republicans would all say, "Oh, he killed them little pigs." Well, it
was the greatest thing he ever done. He got the farmers on their feet
and he had fixed it, oh, I can't go into it. Men couldn't get work
because nobody had that much to hire them and there was a big slag pile
out here. Peabody Coal Company washed their coal and put that slag there
and it was burned to red shale. I was in the garage business there later
on and T furnished a truck and everything and a driver and hauled it all
away and fixed the roads so they could get to the cemetery through the
mud. They made sidewalks here and they done everything, they got PWA to
give the money to them and taxes, later on we made a little money, See
if nobody is working, they ain't paying taxes. They got all the work and
they got them paying taxes and then they took that money to pay off the
debt that they give to us. He was a wonderful man. He was a smart man.
I tell you I cried when he died. He died with a cerebral hemorrhage.
Q: You could remember that day?
A: Yea, sir.

Howard Herron 6 1
Q: Wasn't that a Sunday?
A: I don't remember that. I just remember when it happened. He was
down at the home they had for crippled children. They all took shots to
get rid of it.
Q: Infantile Paralysis.
A: Yes, infantile paralysis. See, he had infantile paralysis. He
walked with braces, Roosevelt brought America out of the doldrums.
America was down and everybody was disgusted. You had nothing to bank on
or nothing else but Franklin D. Roosevelt, he was an old timer, you
talked to him. He said, "How are you?" Oh, he was the finest man that
there eves was. But Harry Truman was Vice President and he just took
over and of course he was a student of FDR and he kept it on. Truman was
the next best, well-liked President. I guess him and Roosevelt ever was
outside of George Washington and Abe Lincoln, but I think they played Abe
Lincoln, played that to death, Springfield has.
End of Tape Three, Side One
Q: Howard, I would like to ask you about Kitty McKinnis who you told me
one time owned a set of apartments where you lived.
A: That's right and that was on the corner of Fifth and Adam Street and
everybody knew her as Miss Kitty. She was employed by the bank at Auburn,
the Auburn State Bank. There was mostly men that roomed there at that
time, instead of apartments, they are apartment buildings now. There's
four apartments in that building, but before she sold it out, well she
had I and Mr. Pierce and Jim, I can't think of his last name now.
Q: Well, Kitty worked at the bank and then did she come home and sort of
take care of the apartments too?
A: Yes, she did and toward the last though Mrs. Bradley and her got a
room there and they took care of, kept the apartments clean and everything.
Q: And Kitty never told you about any of the old time days?
A: No, she never ever did.
Q: But you did mention a Ms. Johnnie Lanham?
A: Yes, well, Ms. Johnnie Lanham, she used to be my school teacher in
the sixth grade and she was a wonderful woman. Her father lived to be
over 100 years old and after he passed away, why she later come to, when
my wife and I and my son, I sold my business and we moved, took a trip to
California, and Ms. Kitty or Ms. Johnnie Lanham came to room at our
house. And she stayed there until she moved to the Parks Memorial Home
and there she took a lifetime membership in that, Parks Memorial Home and
she lived there until she died. She was over 100 herself, I think,
before she passed away.

Howard Herron 6 2
Q: What are some of the things that Ms. Lanham told you about in the old
days?
A: Oh, she was quite a Republican and she, of course, lived during the
Civil War. Her father was a veteran of the Civil War and he was quite
comical and full of fun. If the kids would tease him or anything he
would take his cane and hit them across the shin with it. Everybody had
a lot of fun with him. He had great long white whiskers and that's-about
all I remember.
Q: Did he fight for the North or for the South?
A: The North, but Ms. Lanham I know she always worked to help the best
she could to get a Republican selected. I remember one time in school
she was telling us about, teaching us about politics, how they work and
she said, "Above all things remember our President right or wrong, he is
our President." I never did forget that.
Q: That's very good.
A: And so anyway she lived at the Parks Memorial Home where she passed
away and when that was I don' t remember.
Q: Did your teachers have a pretty good influence on your life, do you
think?
A: Well, yes, she and Mrs. Eva Hedrick had the most. I couldn't paper a
room, I could never get it right and besides that she was my Sunday
School teacher. I worked of an evening for a picture show here and I ran
a movie picture machine that had the old arc lights instead of the lighting
they have now. I would never get home until about 11:OO or later and
sometimes I would go to sleep in school. One day she--I' 11 never forget
this--she said, "You stay after school." She pointed at me and I said,
"Oh, boy, what have I done?" In them days we had to form a line and we
walked, marched right out in line to the end of the street and until you
got out in the street. She ran a tight ship and there was no fooling
around. I was worried about what I was kept in for. When she got back
from after she watched the children all go out to the end of the street,
and then she came back and she said, "Scoot over." I scooted over and
she sat down beside of me and said, "Now get out your arithmetic." I
forgot something I should have said. Before that a11 happened she come
down to my house and talked to my mother and father. Said that I wasn't
quite attentive enough in school and that there was something wrong and
she wondered what it would be. They said, "Well, he stays up late at
night." She says, "Well, I would think that you would put a stop to that
and that will help a lot with his work." So my dad said, "You'll have to
give up that job running that movie picture machine." So I did and
anyway getting back to where she had me get over there in the seat and
get out my arithmetic. She says, "Now you're just as smart as the rest
of the children, Howard. Whey can't you paper a room?" I couldn't take
out the doors and get it right you know. In fact I didn't set my heart
to it enough and I was shirking on the job I guess you would call it now.
Anyway it was just like a boil after it burst, it just hit me or triggered
it and I got the knack of it and I had no trouble after that. I think I

Howard Herron 6 3
told you before I always used to send her a bouquet after that. She was
a fine woman and she is still living, Ms. Eva Hedrick is. Course the
poor soul, she's senile now. But she was a fine woman and I always
appreciated what she did for me.
Q: Do you remember any of the principals that were at the school?
A: Yes, there was Professor Parren, and Montgomery and Chapin, Chapman,
Dr. Chapman, Professor Chapman. I remember those three. This Marion,
I'm trying to think of his last name, Lucus.
Q: Marion Lucus?
A: I think that's right. He was a little fellow, And that's about all
that I remember.
Q: What kind of games did you play at school in those days?
A: We played weak horse.
Q: Weak horse?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you play weak horse?
A: There was fences around the north side and one fellow would stand
with his legs like this and another fellow would stand with his head in
between his legs and you would hold his shoulders. Another fellow would
just line up that way and make a horse and the other one would run and
jump and jump, see how far up they could jump up on the horse. The
horses would begin to wiggle and try to throw them off and as soon as the
fellows hit the ground, they lost. No prizes or anything, just to pass
time. And then we played shinny on your own side, everybody had a club
and a croquet ball. We had a big ground down there where the old school
building used to stand and you just get whatever side you get on. You
hit the ball and you played that until recess was over and the school
bell would ring and we had to go into school. I never will forget one
time Earl Mead was practicing throwing a hammer and the hammer throw.
You'd swing it around and around and the lead ball. And John Bressler,
the janitor, was walking out there and that lead hammer hit him right
between the shoulders. He went down to the ground, so they gave him a
little first aid but he got all right. Wasn't too much damage done.
Q: Was this the janitor that was there for such a long time?
A: Yes. John Bressler.
Q: Do you remember anything about John ~ressler's family?
A: He had a son that was in the National Guard, Frank, that's all that I
. . . . I think his wife had died young and that was all, they batched.

Howard Berron 64
Q: Did they ever have dances when you were in school?
A: No, see I never went past the eighth grade. That's as far as I got.
I had to quit the eighth, I quit school at the eighth grade and went to
work at the tile yard and from the tile yard to the coal mine in order to
help my father pay the doctor bills. We had a doctor come out here from
Springfield, a chiropractor and we just as well throwed our money in the
street. But we tried. As long as your mother's sick, you do anything to
help her. We learned to cook, all of us. And that was another thing Mr.
Hedrick and Ms. Lanham would do. I would sit home this week and do the
cooking and my mother would tell us from the bed what to do and we all
learned to cook. Everyone of us can prepare as good a meal as anybody
and I've stayed in good hands ever since. Well any way my older brother
and I would be working and staying home and cooking and the housework,
Ms. Hedrick would bring the homework home and she'd sketch it out and
then I'd do it and that's the only way we kept our schooling up.
Q: Well, that's good.
A: And Ms. Lanham did the same thing with my older brother. He was
ahead of me in school and when Ms. Lanham was teaching, well, she'd make
it out and give it to me and I'd take it home and give it to my brother.
Geography, arithmetic and that.
Q: When you were a boy, you had a lot of different jobs and you worked
hard. Did you ever at moments say I want to be something when I grow up?
Was there something in particular that you thought you'd like to do?
A: Well, yes. I never gave it much thought as long as I was, until I
was working in the coal mine and the coal mine was figuring on closing
down. There was rumor that they were closing down and I said, "I'm going
to get out of this business." I said, "I worked in a coal mine a11 my
life and I never will own one." And so I got a job selling cars for
Latham Motor Company and I had told you that before. So 1 sold cars for
Latham Motor Company for about a year and then he sold the business to
some fellows from Clinton or Lincoln, Illinois. A fellow named Bob
Tribbit came to manage it, the Ford Motor Sales, and so that's when I got
my fingers mashed off and I got $750. That's when I told you prior to
this when I went into the bank and got the backing of the bank to go to
the General Motors meeting in St. Louis and get the Chevrolet franchise.
I went two years after I started, or two and half years after I started.
I quit the coal mine and started to work there. I said, "I owned a
business of my own, so I was headed right." So I stayed, sold
automobiles until I was in the automobile business practically in and out
for--I sold the Chevrolet and brought the Ford. I kept it a while and I
sold it and the war come on and I volunteered. Well, before that, after
I had sold out, I sold cars for Metropolitan Chevrolet Company in
Springfield and then World War I1 came on and I volunteered for war work.
You had no cars to sell. There were seventeen salesmen there and I
belonged to the One-hundred Car Club and I sold one-hundred cars in a
year. You had to sell one-hundred cars a year and they all had a big
turkey banquet. The guys that won, divided up in teams and the team that

Howard Herron 6 5
sold the most cars, they ate turkey and the other guys had to sit across
from them and ate beans and it was fun. They had a big celebration,
party, of course. So I volunteered for war work and they sent me to the
fairgrounds with the Fire Department. I studied it pretty good and I got
to be a Captain of the Fire Department there.
Course that war lasted about five or six years and there was a depot,
Army Air Corps and the Army Air Corps took over the State fairgrounds.
There was so much lumber piled around there and oh, just tons of it you
might say. And I said to myself, "Well, if its going to be a good living
between the man that's got and the one that wants. They're not building
any houses and I'm going to get in the real estate business." So I went
up to the library and I got books and Fee Simple back in England. And I
went and I told you what I sold some real estate-- first $15,000 bungalow.
And I was forced to work for--after I got a job selling real estate when
the war was over and I sold that house. When I told them I wanted my
commission they said, "Well, I don't want to pay no commission, go take
your examination." So I did and I got my license and I just moved down
the street from them and went in business for myself.
Q: Well, if you had it all to do over again, would there have been any
changes in the kind of work that you might have done?
A: No, I was happy with it all.
Q: You were happy with it?
A: Very happy. I got married when I was selling Ford cars.
Q: Tell me a little bit about your wife. Did she have certain hobbies
or. . . .
A: She was a fine woman. I never will forget one time after I started
in business for myself she belonged to the Methodist Church and Sunday
School and they always had a party. Once a month they had this party and
I come home one evening and she was crying. I said, "Why are you crying?"
She said, "They all say you're going to get broke." I says, "Listen," I
put my arm around her. I said, "You tell them don't worry about it. I'm
already broke to start with and I can't go broke. I'm already broke."
She started laughing. When World War I1 come on and my son joined the
Navy and I was working at the fairgrounds where I worked twenty-four
hours off and twenty-four on, she didn't want to be by herself. We lived
in Springfield then and she went over to Rolands Department Store and got
her a job as a salesclerk.
And so the first time I come home she walked all around and she said, "I
have you know I'm a saleslady now." So she worked and she went from
there to Myers Brothers. She worked for Myers Brothers for years. She
liked, well we moved to Springfield so she could work another six months
at Myers Brothers--well, if she could have done that, she could draw a
pension from Myers Brothers and besides her social security. But she had
this stroke and she got sick and she never regained.

Howard Herron 66
Q: How old was she when she had this stroke?
A: Well, when she died she was about eighty-one. About eighty years old
when she had the stroke. The first one, then she had two or three. She
was in Parks Memorial Home for two and a half years.
Q: When you were first married, what kind of social activities were
there here in town?
A: Oh, I belonged to the American Legion and I was Chairman of the
American Legion Dance Club. We had a dance about every two weeks,
commercial dance I guess. It was $2.00 a couple. We had big orchestras
come in here and play and one night I had two orchestras come in. We
always had contracts with them, Dunlap out of Jacksonville, and Fate C.
Marble and his Alabama Coons they called them from St. Louis and here
come Fate C. Dunlap and Marble had forgot to send me a contract to sign
and I sent it back to him and his band. Six piece band came in a train
there and they got in here and so here I was the chairman of the Dance
Club and had two orchestras.
Well, I got busy and I said well, I went to Earl Hines restaurant here.
"Would you be willing to feed these six orchestra men from Jacksonville
if they will play for an evening meal?" He was a member of the American
Legion too so he said, yes, he'd help out. So when I went over to the
theater and I got them and the boys from Dunlap said that they could put
on a vaudevilles show if they let them in free. They could come to the
dance and they didn't have to pay anything but just enjoy it. So the
theater paid them a little something and a Negro band is what it was, and
anyway they had to pay their own dinners and that. So they played for
the dance and the boys from Jacksonville, they got their supper and they
got to dance free and they took it all good naturedly because it was just
one of those mistakes. Marble said, "It was all my fault, T should have
sent you the contract."
Q: That's good. Well, did you ever go to a place called Irvin's Park?
A: Yes, that was way when I was just a kid. They had picnics there and
they always had a dance every weekend there. They had special cars run
from St. Louis to Springfield down here and they would stop off there and
unload the people. There was a great big dance hall and a saloon and a
restaurant and they had picnics out there too.
Q: Who owned that?
A: Jim Irvin owned that. Irvin's Electric Park it was known as.
Q: Where was it located?
A: Just about two and a half miles north of Auburn. On the ITS Railroad
and there would be a car on this ITS Railroad that would go each way
every hour from St. Louis to Peoria and its all torn down now. You see
those mobile homes along there when you go out south of town here. Well
that used to be a railroad right of way. It went right around town here
and then straight north was Irvin's Park. That was a big attraction, oh

Howard Herron 67
they came from Ear and near, to go to Irvin's Park. And they would spend
every Sunday. Every Sunday was a day of picnicing, and dance there.
They took in so much money out there. When I was a young kid, I'd see
them. They had the deputy sheriff and taking the money in the bag and
they had one of these there three wheel scooters. Did you ever see them
operate. . . .
Q: Oh, they called them Herdie Gerdies, didn't they?
A: Oh, something like that. They were scooters of Herdie Gerdies and
they would bring up money and the bank. This deputy sheriff, he'd ride
with Irvin and one man pulled this thing and it had three wheels. Two on
the main line and across the middle at an angle like. That was a Herdie
Gerdie or whatever. We called them scooters. A boxcar inspector, or a
car inspector, he used one. And one man could lift that up and take it
off the track and put it back on by himself. There was a lot of times
when they had a big picnic out there they'd have a bag full of money and
they'd bring it in and put it in the bank.
Q: They weren't afraid they'd be robbed between Irvin's Park and the
bank?
A: Oh, they had a shotgun. The deputy sheriff would ride on the back of
it with a shotgun.
Q: Was there much crime at all in. . . .
A: Not much, well we had a few fights. Lots of drunken fights.
Q: But you did have a jail?
A: Auburn had a jail. We had a fire department. Whoever we got a hold
of first, the fellow who had a team of horses and get over there and he
come to the fire and he got two and a half for doing that. And then they
had a big bar right across there and three or four of us would ride and
get on that side and four or five on this side and they'd pump that by
hand.
Q: By hand?
A: Had nothing only cisterns to get the water out in the water system.
The water system went in here in 1934.
Q: Do you ever remember a very dry summer when you were a kid when there
wasn't much water in the wells and you had to be careful about that?
A: Yes, oh I can't remember the year. I can't remember the year but it
was along about in 1935, I think it was. Along in there and the corn was
dried up in the field. It got up to 115 degrees above zero and I remember
Fred Lockridge and my brother and my father-in- law farmed out south of
town here. And the roastin ears would get about that big and the corn
was just burnt up and I said to Fred Lockridge one time, "Can't you feed
that to your cattle?" And he said, "No, they won't eat it, it's bitter."
It just turned black, the corn just turned black. That was the worst
that I have ever seen,

Howard Herron 6 8
Q: So times were pretty hard for the farmers if the weather wasn't good?
A: Farming is the biggest gamble there is. He depends on the weather
and the chinch bugs and army worms and everything.
Q: And even in the stock market.
A: And the stock market.
Q: Well, that's changed now. They know pretty well, they got rid of
the--they pulled the hedges out of here. They used to have a lot of
hedge fences around here. The farmers pulled them out of the ground.
They take a lot of moisture out of the ground and fertility too and they
had to take those, most of the farmers fences are a11 pulled out now.
Q: What was a hedge fence like? I mean how did they make them?
A: Well, it just looked like, you've seen them over here. It's like--
they just let them grow up and make highposts then they cut it down and
make post, fence posts out of them. They got rid of all of that hedge.
The chinch bugs harbored there, and they laid their eggs in there, and
they'd hatch in the spring and they'd kill the wheat and corn. The army
worms, 1 remember army worms come through south of the cemetery here one
the. They would drag a log along and mash the worms. They took a post
hole digger and made a big hole and they put a tar line there. They'd
come across the tar line and they'd get there and they would put kerosene
in there and it would burn them worms up, those were army worms and cinch
bugs
Q: You didn't have insecticides then. The government didn't subsidize?
A: No, no subsidizing.
Q: So times could have been very hard for them.
A: They were. Farmers didn't farm as big as they do now. My fatherin-law
farmed bigger than everybody. He farmed 600 acres of land out
there. He didn't own it, he rented it and he farmed the estate.
Q: The people had animals and their own gardens and their own chickens?
A: Everybody in town had chickens and when we lived in town here my
father owned a whole block up there. We had four or five hogs that we
would butcher every year, and we had a cow and we milked it and we would
deliver milk, had the milkman here named Beech. He ran the wagon that
had a ten gallon milk can in there and he had a little strainer like. If
a fly would drop in there he would get it out so the women didn't know it
and nobody died of diphtheria from it or typhoid fever. He ring a bell
and the women would come out with a bucket about that big around and
about that tall.
The kids would take their lunch to school and they'd hear the bell ring.
They'd get out there with their little bucket and pay a nickel for a half
a gallon or a quart of milk. hat's what it cost them. Most of the

Howard Herron 6 9
farmers came to town and they sold their eggs to the grocer and the
people bought the eggs. They made butter and they sold their butter.
Also, we didn't know what creamy butter was then. We didn't know what
oleo was then either. That was invented later.
Q: How did people keep their things cold or cool?
A: Every well had a box at the top and it had spike nails in it and a
rope. You'd put your butter in one of the cans and bucket and put that
down there. If you had milk you put it in there and if you had fresh
meats you put it over here in this. Did I tell you when my mother
dropped her false teeth in there and we had to pump it dry to get her
teeth out?
Q: Did you have an old ice box?
A: No. Later we did but Butler, he had the poultry out here, and he
handled ice. ~e'd go down to Virden and pick up the ice. They had to
wait till the pond froze up, the creek and then they'd go out and cut
that ice and put it up in the winter. They put a lot of sawdust around
it to keep it and then they would have to wash the sawdust off of it.
~he~'d waste half of it doing that that way. There was not much ice.
Q: Did you have house to house ice delivery or anything like that?
A: Later on, when we were progressing. When we started to progress,
see.
Q: Well, I would like to talk a little if you don't mind about World War
I1 and how it affected the people at their home. Howard, this is a very
special day in your life probably because you spent part of your life in
World War I and you probably have a lot to tell me about the Armistice
Day.
A: Well, yes, I was in the service twenty-two months two weeks,
twenty-two months and twenty-two days.
Q: Do you remember when they started celebrating Armistice Day?
A: Well, we were halfway in between here and France and on the ocean
coming back with the convoy and we got the news on the ship. Of course
when we landed in New York then there was--it was two days before we got
into New York. And of course, the big parade and everything was on then
and everybody was having a good time. Glad that it was over.
Q: Did you parade in Auburn?
A: No, well, I didn't get back to Auburn for oh, two or three months
after the Armistice Day.
Q: But I mean every year Auburn had their little parade and the American
Legion men all participate?

Howard Herron 7 0
A: Used to but they're getting down to where they don't. They have a
banquet every year, the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign War
have a dinner for all of us and our wives. And tonight they are having
one and I don't even think that there will be only five veterans left.
I'm the only living charter member in the American Legion and the rest of
them have all passed on.
Q: Did you eves march in one of the American Legion Parades?
A: Oh yes. Every year. I missed it there for a while. There was quite
a few of us in them days.
Q: And you would go over to Veterans Park?
A: Yes, and go past the Senior Citizens home and to Veterans Park.
Helen Harms, I think, planted a tree in the park here, in honor of her
first husband. He enlisted at the same time that I did and we'd stop
there and fire a salute and then we'd go on to the cemetery and have a
program. We'd have a speaker and fire a salute and play taps. And we
would have one to play taps up there and we would have one way down at
the end of the cemetery and he'd bring the echo back. He'd play the
echo.
Q: I always thought it was a very impressive ceremony.
A: It was. But they're getting down now, I think there's only about
five of us left, but I'm not sure. Frank Fitzue, he's in the nursing
home in Virden, and there's supposed to be four of us there tonight and
there's several widows of course. Ladies live longer than men.
Q: Sometimes.
A: Sometimes, they say the good die young. (laughs)
Q: We were going to talk about World War I1 a little bit and how it
affected the people on the home front. Do you remember some of the
things that the people had to do during the war to help out or to do
their part?
A: They rationed gasoline and that was the biggest thing. And the sugar
was rationed and meat was rationed. The rents were frozen on the houses,
people renting, and they just put the freeze on about as much as they
could.
Q: Were tires hard to get?
A: Yes. We had to have an order from a place, I forget what they called
it now, but there was a headquarters in each county and you had to go
there and have, like if you were working for the ammunitions factory out
in Illiopolis, that was east of Springfield. Everybody that traded there
had to go to the headquarters and the manager, they made ammunition
there, and lots of people worked out of there and there was plenty
employment. You had to get orders for a tire. I was selling cars for
the Metropolitan Chevrolet when the war broke out and we kept our

Howard Herron 7 1
demonstrators.
premium then but. . . .
We had no more cars for sale and automobiles were a
Q: Did a lot of people have to jack up their cars during the duration?
A: No, nobody wasted gasoline but everybody cooperated with it as they
could and had plenty to eat but it was rationed.
Q: Do you remember if shoes were rationed?
A: No, I don't remember that, did you?
Q: Yes, I remember that.
A: No, I never did.
Q: I guess because of the rubber soles.
A: I never needed any shoes. I had plenty. But it lasted about six
years, I believe it was about six years. s hat's when I learned to. . . .
Q: What did or how did they ration things?
A: Stamps. Books of stamps. People smuggled them.
Q: Oh dear, a lot of that went on? Black market, is that what it was
called?
A: There was black market in meat then and things like that too. Some
wouldn't partake and some did, but it was that way with everything.
There were bootleggers, the country was dry. You wouldn't remember that
I guess.
Q: No, but Ive heard of that. According to some of the tales there was
quite a bit of that going on here in Auburn.
A: Oh tes. You didn't have to go far. There was home brew and what
they called Deigo Bed Wine. They'd shoot the barrel with ether some way
and you better not drink very much of that because it would make you
sick. I never was much of a drinker. I never partaked in that very
much.
Q: During that time had you ever heard of any rumors about any Chicago
gangsters being hiding out in Auburn?
A: Oh yes. I knew one time they came down here, they'd come down here
and load their trucks. There was a place out here south of Auburn that
was manufacturing this alcohol. And they had the big vats and everything,
concrete vats. And they'd go in to Springfield, they broke a wheel on a
truck and they had to get a wheel for that rtuck. Nobody was ever arrested
or anything else.
Q: People weren't being arrested for making their own booze then?

Howard Herron 72
A: Well, not much. The states attorney would come down and the sheriff's
office, they would come down and raid the places but nobody ever went to
jail very much. They must have dealt under the table a little bit, that
was all. That's always in anything like that, seems like when there's a
demand for it, they can raise the price, or they will get it some way.
Q: Well, let's go back to World War 11, we got off the subject just a
little bit, but do you remember whether the housewives did anything
special during the war to help out?
A: Oh, they made bandages for the wounded soldiers and the churches
would have meetings and women would attend these meetings. They'd have
coffee and donuts or something like that. They'd all make bandages and
pads for the heavy wounds and they sent them into the Red Cross.
Q: Would they knit gloves and scarves and hats?
A: Yes, I had a sweater myself that they knitted. They sent them to our
ship, the first ship that I was on and there was about 125 on that ship.
It was a destroyer and everyone of us got a new sweater and I don't know
where they came from but the Red Cross brought them there. When we was
on the other side of the ocean, we were in France they had cigarettes,
but you'd have to buy them from the Red Cross, but the Salvation Army you
would get them for nothing.
Q: What were your feelings about the Red Cross? Do you think that they
were doing a good job?
A: Yes, but then there is always gripers. Everybody can't do anything,
but somebody will gripe about it. But they did a lot of good. I know
when after the war was over and, I moved to Springfield, my wife and I
and Tommy, we lived at 514 West Monroe Street. I had the hiccups so bad
that nobody could stop them. And so Dr. Clark, my sister- in-law's
brother-in-law was a doctor and he was a captain in the army. . . .
End of Tape Three, Side Two
A: Yes, he tried to stop the hiccups, I had them for two or three days
and two or three nights. So they got an order from the Red Cross to stop
the fast train that went from Chicago. We called it the Red Flyer or
something like that from Chicago to St. Louis. They put me on a stretcher
in Springfield and took me to the Jefferson Veterans Hospital in St.
Louis. My wife went with me, she rode up in the baggage car with me.
1'11 never forget I would vomit, it was just like coffee grounds. They
had an ambulance meet me at the depot and they took me to the hospital.
I was down there about seven or eight days before they got them stopped.
They did everything.
Q: Heavens, that must have been a terrible experience.
A: I'll say so, I was pretty sore, jerking like that.

Howard Herron 7 3
Q: What did they say was wrong?
A: Just, I had the hiccups, hiccups is a spasm of the diaphram, is what
it. And they put me in ice water and I remember one time they give
me--they said, "Do you drink?" And I said, "No, not habitually." So
they brought me a glass with the best tasting whiskey I ever tasted.
Several years after that I had, the Red Cross, I'm getting ahead of
myself, the Red Cross paid my bill and they sent me a notice. I
reimbursed the Red Cross because the hospital fees were not much, they
didn't cost me anything. They didn't cost me anything when I had a heart
attack that time in Milwaukee, but I carry a card in my pocket now that
anytime I need to go to a Veterans Hospital all I got to do is present
that card and they'll take me right into the hospital.
Q: Back to some of the things that the housewives did, do you remember
if they saved grease and . . . .
A: Yes, they did. There was prizes given for canned goods with labels
on them and a lot of them saved those labels and turned them in and then
they got premiums. I started to tell you about later on I had this
hiccups again. That was several years later and they took me to St.
~ohn's Hospital and Dr. Koeningsburg was my doctor. They did everything
they could think of to do to stop them. They called Dr. Stocker from the
T.B. (Princess) Sanitarium and that was before it was closed down. They
took me up and they cut on this side. There is a scar there across here,
that's what they call the vagus nerve.
Q: On your neck there?
A: Yea. And they said that ought to stop them. Well, it didn't. So
then the next day they took me up and they cut the vagus nerve on this
side of my neck. There is a scar right down there that you can't see on
account of my collar now. That stopped them and they fixed my bed when I
got home. The head of the bed had two pieces of four by four and they
raised it up, the head of my bed and I had to sleep like this with my
head up higher than my feet. 1 haven't had the hiccups since. That was
fifteen or twenty years ago.
Q: Well, that's a terrible thing to have the hiccups so long. Did
somebody ever try to scare you out of them?
A: Well, they scared me, they had me blowing in a paper bag and the
Jefferson Barracks had a tub that had ice water and they bathed me in
that. They did everything, anytime anybody suggested anything, they
tried it.
Q: They were kind of experimenting on you then?
A: Well, nothing was doing it, stopping them so they just kept it up
till they could stop them.
Q: Do you remember if people who had sons in the war placed a star in
the window, didn't they, for every son that they had in the war?

Howard Herron 74
A: Yes, but you see I was in World War I and I wasn't here then. And I
didn't know then after the war, well, it was quite a while before I got
back to Auburn because it was about four months before they got us all
discharged.
Q: During World War 11, do you remember whether they had blackouts or
not in your area?
A: Yes, they did, they had sirens going and they were supposed to meet
at certain places. In case a bomb would hit, you'd go there to the
schools or churches or different places and you'd get into the basements
or what ever.
Q: Those were bomb shelters then?
A: Yes, that's what they called bomb shelters.
Q: Did they have people that organized this like the Civil Defense?
A: Yes, they were in different areas in the city. Like in this part,
wards, there were four wards here and each ward had a place and that was
where they'd go.
Q: Usually how long did those drills last?
A: Oh, not too long, not over a half hour, they'd practice them.
Q: Were you warned in advance?
A: No, they had the fire alarm, they'd pull it by surprise and everybody
would go there and that was the way they did it. As soon as they all
gathered, it only lasted about 30 minutes and then everybody would go
back to their business or work or whatever. The businesses would lock
their doors and go to them.
Q: Now you talked about one place in Riverton that became an ammunition
factory. Did a lot of factories . . . .
A: No, that was Illiopolis.
Q: Illiopolis, 1'm sorry. Did a lot of factories sort of change over to
some wartime activities during that time?
A: No, the government came in there and they built roads and they built
the buildings and everything else. They manufactured the bullets and the
shells and everything else. They had two shifts, they worked day and
night. They had a night shift and a day shift. Those buildings are all
still out there. They sold them to different ones and I know some people
had a big hatchery out there where they hatched ducks and chickens andthey'd
sell them. The farmers would go in there and get their chickens.
They'd have incubators at home. I think there was a grain business out
there too. Some kind of grain purchasing, grain and seeds.

Howard Herron 7 5
Q: Did a lot of women go to work?
A: Yes, mostly women. They had a special train that would go from
Springfield out there and a special train to bring them back.
Q: Was that sort of when slacks came in to the picture? Women started
wearing slacks and handkerchiefs around their heads to keep their hair
from being caught in the machinery and so forth?
A: hat's right. Everybody did what they were told. To harmonize and
make everything work out.
Q: Was money hard to get at that time? Were people . . . .
A: No, no, money was plentiful.
Q: They had money but they couldn't buy a lot of the things that they
wanted probably?
A: Well, everything was rationed. You couldn't buy to excess. There
was no waste. At Illiopolis they had mounds built. They'd dig down a
little ways. They were what they called ammunition dumps and it just
looked like, you've seen pictured of Eskimo ice huts? They are large.
Q: They look like that?
A: They looked like huts, they'd make these shells to put in cannons and
they'd pile them up in there and they'd ship them out to overseas.
Q: Do you remember anything about war bond drives?
A: Yes, they had drives. If you didn't buy a war bond, you weren't very
patriotic.
Q: People seemed to be more patriotic during those times, didn't they?
A: Well, yes, but they'll be that way again if we're ever attacked.
Q: You're sure that. . . .
A: Oh yes.
Q: You have faith in this younger generation that they would go to war?
A: Sure.
Q: What do you feel about some of these boys that didn't want to go to
Vietnam? Did you feel that that was justified?
A: Well, no, I wasn't one of them, I was past that, but the way it
turned out to be, it was an unjust war. It wasn't a war, they didn't go
in to win. If they had gone to win, I don't think there would have been
much hesitancy about it, about wanting to go. But when all the news came
back with these booby traps and all those boys getting killed over there

Howard Herron 7 6
and everything, and there's no, it didn't seem like it was organized
right.
They talked guns and butter. It finally got so that there was plenty of
butter and they had plenty of guns too and yet there, they didn't go into
Vietnam to win. And that's why a lot of those boys didn't go and I've
heard several other elderly fellows say if I had it to do over anything
like that, I wouldn't go either. Because there wasn't, it's proven--that
one thing I thought was going to hurt Nixon and that was because he said
it was a just war in one of his speeches. Well, it wasn't a just war
because what'd we ever get out of it? They just walked out, left the
guns and airplanes and everything else there, that's it.
Q: That war rather hurt our image towards the world, didn't it?
A: Yes, it did. In a way we were fighting Russia more in a sense
because Russia was supplying and China was supplying Vietnam. That was a
bad place. The terrain was either of mountainous or it was swampy.
Q: And those people over there, they had been in war most all their
lives.
A: Yes, France tried to whip them out and France withdrew and pulled
everything back to France. Then United States took it up and I think
Eisenhower was the first one that sent the troops in there. Then I was
Cold one time that that's the reason that Johnson didn't run for
reelection for President was because on account of that war and he knew
he'd get beat. I just heard that, that's not my opinion. I heard that.
Q: What kind of a war do you think we might ever have if we are in one
again?
A: It'll be an atomic war. It will be over pretty fast and that's just
my opinion.
Q: Well, that's what we're asking you for is your opinion. Howard,
let's talk a little bit about--it occurred to me that there was a Ku Klux
Klan in Auburn. I never knew anything about that, have you ever seen one
or know anything about that?
A: Well, I never belonged to them but they'd meet out here south of town
and they didn't do any. . . .
Q: They weren't violent?
A: Well, that was nothing but a political organization to elect Glen
Small governor of the state of Illinois. That was all this Ku Klux Klan
was for. That's the way it looked.
Q: And was he governor?
A: He was elected governor.

Howard Herron 7 7
Q: He was elected governor?
A: Yes. I was just a young fellow then. I was married though and I
heard a politician say that that was what they were for, to elect Glen
Small the governor.
Q: About what time was this in your life?
A: About 1925.
Q: You were a young man then?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they ride into town?
A: No, they just had a meeting out there out south of town here in a
pasture out there and we drove by. They didn't bother you, you just went
on by and they had a fellow standing at the gate and unless you belonged
you didn't get in.
Q: Did you ever see them in their sheets?
A: Oh yes. And they had a big red cross, a big cross burning but it
didn't last long. That's why a lot of them felt that was for that
election purpose.
Q: So you feel it was more political than religious?
A: That wasn't my feelings exactly, but that was what I heard. The
smarter guys were the politicians though.
Q: I understood though that back in the olden days when Auburn was just
getting its start, that the people who lived on the east side of town
were not considered as good as the people on the west side of the track.
Was there some sort of controversy there?
A: Well, there was the east sid-and the west side but most of the
foreign people settled on the east side. The residents on this side, I
can say this for the east side, I was in business for myself later on at
the tailend of that. But the foreign people, I was their lawyer and
advisor, and a lot of them trusted me. They all traded with me and they
all paid, when I sold out, everyone that could, came to pay their bills.
I remember one fellow by the name of Felitian Gignet, and I had bought
Dr. Hart's house up here and I moved back from Springfield here, and he
came down to my house. I'd sold him a car, a used car, and he came down
to my house and he stood there with his hat in his hand and he said, my
nickname, they call me Percy. He said, "Mr. Percy, I'm sorry, I owe you
for $40 on the car but I can't pay. I got no money, I got no job." And
I said, "Well, wait till I get my book."
And I went and got the books and I said, "yes, that's $40." So I just
got the papers and he turned around and I happened to see the seat of his
pants was out. I went and got a suit of clothes I give him, and tore up

Howard Berron 7 8
the papers. I said, "Felitian, call it square because I made a pretty
good profit from the used car." He was a gentleman and as I say, now all
the people that owed me money on the east side, they paid, pretty near
everyone of them to the dime.
Some people on this side, the aristocratic part as they called it then,
they didn't. Well, I just got so tired of trying to collect it. During
the depression you couldn't collect anything because they didn't have it
either and they'd lie about it. The east people were more honest than the
people over here, when you get right down to it. I just got so disgusted
that one day I slipped down in the basement and I took the Accounts
Receivable Ledger and it was $6,702. I'll never forget it as long as I
live and I just threw it in the furnace and burnt it up. My wife said,
11
You're crazy", and I said, "No, I'm not." I said, "Those people are
good to me and they paid their bills and they would pay if they could,"
and I just got it off my mind and started over.
Q: That was very good of you.
A: I didn't lose anything by it and I still have a lot of friends.
Q: Do you think because some of these people spoke foreign languages and
perhaps had different religious beliefs that that was one reason why the
people on the west side didn't want to accept them?
A: Oh, they accepted them, they accepted their business. But it was a
case of some fellow would come here say from Italy and he'd write to
friends. There would be about a half a dozen from Italy would come over
here and they'd settle over there in that part of town. They would
settle close to where a friend was and they mostly couldn't speak English
very fluently and they learned as fast as they could. They learned
faster than we would if we went over to their country. They couldn't
mingle was all, because they didn't know our language and we didn't know
theirs. But as I said, they learned it faster than we would if we would
have been in their country. But a lot of good people over there and they
all raised their children and they are all in school now and that's all
forgotten. They have decent homes over there and that's all forgotten.
Q: Do you think the people of Auburn today are, there's hardly any
prejudice left?
A: No, there's no prejudice at all.
Q: What do you think the people of Auburn would say if the black
community developed here?
A: Well, that'sa.. . .
Q: Do you think there would be some prejudice there?
A: There would be bound to be. We had one Negro here, Dr. Wheeler. He
was the State Game Commissioner and he had charge of the State Game Farm
out here south of town and I told you about that before.

Howard Herron 79
Q: He was black?
A: He was a Negro and he had this--this Dr. Wheeler was a big fine man.
He got this Negro here to practice boxing with him and they'd go out to a
barn right where the Auburn State Bank is. Dr. Wheeler's office was
right there and this barn was there and he had race horses and things and
bull dogs. Ferguson was the name, Fergie, and everybody liked Fergie.
He'd carry a wrench with him and a loaf of bread and whatever he would
eat on it. Dr. Wheeler took care of him good and he didn't bother anybody
and he was--everybody said, "Hello Fergie, how are you?"
Q: Now Dr. Wheeler was black or. . . .
A: No, he was a white man.
Q: Dr. Wheeler was white, but Ferguson was the black man?
A: Yes, he lived here until he died. I'll never forget to tell a story
about him. Mr. Hart was secretary of the Building and Loan Association
here. He had a farm right out south of town here and go over and catch a
car on into town. Ferguson had a big stand and each farmer would cross
the railroad and the farmers would bring their milk in and ship their
milk in the cans to Springfield and they had this stand built on post
legs. They'd stand on that platform and put the milk right into the
railroad car.
So a bad storm was coming up and Mr. Hart was a very religious fellow,
Sunday school leader and so forth. He said, "Ferguson, you prepared to
meet your maker?'' Fergie grabbed him by both hands and he said, "Mr.
Hart, don't you go away and leave me here now." I guess it was true too.
In a way he was kind of afraid of death of Negroes. He said, "Mr. Hart,
don't you go away and leave me here now."
Q: Do you ever remember seeing an Indian?
A: Not here. I saw them in shows.
Q: Do you ever remember hearing anything about Indian mounds or anything
about Indian reservations that happened to be in this area?
A: No. There was some down there around Cahokia Mounds down near St.
Louis and over by Macomb, there are Indian mounds over there. Not: around
here.
Q: Did you ever remember a Charles McMahon?
A: Oh yes.
Q: Do you remember when Charles McMahon escaped a burning building that
claimed the life of Harry F. Winkley Jr.?
A: No, I don't remember that. But this Charles McMahon, he and I were
roommates. We went to Divernon and got a job in the coal mine there. We
were both at the same boarding house and we were roommates.

Howard Herron 80
He was quite a poker player. He was a good one. He was tongue-tied. He
talked like it.
Q: Oh, was he?
A: Yes. There was a guy named Guiney who ran a hot dog and chili stand
there on that street just in front of the elevator there. Be had worked
for him. Guiney was his name. His father owned a restaurant and McMahon
used to work there for him. When Guiney would go home he would stay
there and run the place. Fellows would go in there and I'll try to tell
you just like it. Somebody would come in and they would order chili and
hot dogs and they'd tell them to charge it. Charles McMahon would say,
"Jesus Christ, you come here and get a hot dog and you eat chili and you
say charge it." He says, "1 ain' t going to do it." He says, "So how are
you getting your money?" He said, "Well, I have to charge it I guess."
That was when he was a young boy.
He was the only kid in town that had a pair of felt boots, We'd hop the
bobsled and the farmers would come into town in the snowy weather and
everybody had a bobsled but they didn't have any cars then. They came to
town in their bobsled and we'd hop bobs. We'd hop on the sled and they'd
give us a ride out in the country and we'd meet another one coming in and
we. . . .
Q: Now a bobsled was pulled by a horse? Two horses?
A: Yes, as a rule. Now a sleigh was a cutter they called it. It was
pulled by sometimes one horse or two horses, whichever they wanted. They
all had sleighbells and buckles around the horses and the horses would
trot. The sleighbells were kind of noisy when you were out in the evening
on a still night and the sleighbells could be heard going different ways.
If a fellow had a good horse and a sleigh, he'd get a good girl. (laughs)
You'd hear the sleighbells ringing.
Q: That must have been kind of nice because you go out on a night now
and all you hear is the roar of the automobile engines. I suppose they
didn't have electric street lights so much then like they do now and
maybe it was darker.
A: They didn't then, that's true. They did have a light plant here,
city owned. When they started the first electric machines and irons, at
1Q:OO in the morning they could turn on their iron and do their washing,
otherwise they couldn't. Tt cost too much to fire it up and there was a
time set when you could use it and a time set when you couldn't but most
everybody had coal oil lamps. I got one in there yet. My wife. . . .
Q: They had coal oil stoves then too, didn't they?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that sort of follow the wood stove and the coal stove?
A: Yes. They were called little heaters. You filled it with about a
gallon of kerosene and had a wick to it and you had to watch them.
~he~'d go up in smoke if you didn't watch them.

Howard Herron 8 1
Q: Were there lots of fires due to this type of cooking?
A: No, not anymore than there is I guess now. Well, yes, there might
have been more but everybody had to be careful. Your children was taught
to stay away from the fire.
Q: When electricity came, I guess the housewives, it was kind of a
wonderful thing for her. She could have the electric iron and did she
have an electric washing machine with a wringer on it?
A: Well, we didn't for a long the. 1 know we had one that you had a
wheel that you turn like that. Some of them had them where you could put
your foot like this and run it.
Q: That you could pedal?
A: You could push your foot and pull back and push the handle and push
forward the same way an your foot. Ours had a wheel to crank and mother
would set an alarm clock there and she'd say, "Fifteen minutes now,
boys. "
Q: Oh, you boys had to crank that for fifteen minutes?
A: Yes, when there was washing to do.
Q: And what kind of soap did you use for your clothing?
A: Homemade soap. They saved the grease to make the soap. They put the
soap with lye and that's what made the soap.
Q: Did you ever have to help with that?
A: Oh, I stirred it a lot of times.
Q: How did they make the cakes of soap?
A: Oh, they just let it set. After they cooked it so long, they got the
grease hot and put the lye in it and stirred it so long. And then just
leave it, put it, put a wooden lid over it, the kettle, and soon as it
got cool, take it out and cut it.
A: How often would a person have to make soap then?
A: Oh, two or three times a year.
Q: Oh.
A: My mother used to--she'd set the clock and go and we'd sneak up five
minutes, we'd turn the clock up. we'd turn it up five minutes on her.
She was pretty doxy. It was like at night she would say, "Boys, wash
them feet." And we'd go out to the well and pump the water and we'd go
to the back door and she'd say, "I want to see those feet." She said,
"Them sheets are getting dirty too fast." And when she washed she'd have
to boil the clothes. If they weren't boiled they were terrible. You

Howard Herron 8 2
didn't have the detergent like they have now, bleach, and everything.
They had a big old copper boiler. There're antiques now, sold high, and
the women would boil the water and put the sheets and pillow cases in
that washtub right next to it. Then take a long stick and hold that up
and then they'd switch it over into the tub and. . . .
Q: That must have been an all day process?
A: It was an all day process and then pretty near everyone had a summer
kitchen they called them. They had clotheslines in there and they hung
their clothes up in there. We had a little laundry stove and we built a
fire in that to keep it warm in there and the heat would dry them. It
was nothing to go by a house where there was clothes hanging on the
clothesline and a pair of long-johns hanging there that looked like a man
hanging by his hands. The wind would blow them and they were froze
stiff. Well, we just had to do it, that was the way of life.
Q: On the very coldest winter days, how did you manage to stay warm?
A: Oh. . . .
Q: You couldn't have a stove in every room?
A: No, but we had at least two. One in the living room and one in the
kitchen, had a big cook stove in the kitchen and the heating stove. My
father bought what they called a hard coal burner. Had to get the coal
from Pennsylvania, I think.
Q: Why did you have to get coal from Pennsylvania?
A: It was what they called hard coal and there was no ashes to it. When
it got burned there was just a white ash. There was glass all around it
and it would just light up the whole room and you were society when you
got a hard coal burner.
Q: We're going back to some of those things now, did you know that?
A: The hard coal burners? I don't know.
Q: The wood burning stoves?
A: Oh yes. Well, they've got some kind of a way now that they can but I
don't know of anybody around here that--a few put in fireplaces but not
very many put in the other.
Q: Did you burn the front side of your body and freeze the back side on
these stoves?
A: I can tell you about a real case of that. My youngest brother, Paul,
when we lived up in the west part of town and we had to walk to and from
school and I told you before Bressler wouldn't let us bring our dinner.
Said there was too many crumbs and he had to clean them up and the School
Board stuck with him. Anyway we got home this one evening from school
and mother wasn't there. She'd gone some place, the Ladies Ald Society

Howard Herron
or something at the church, and my brother said, "Oh, I've got to go to
the toilet." He ran out to the toilet and he came back. I had to turn
the heat on and 1 had it good and hot. The stove would get red. He came
back and he pulled down his pants and backed his behind up to the stove
and he just went like that. (makes searing naise) He had a big blister
on each cheek of his butt.
Q: Oh my goodness.
A: He had to sleep on his stomach for about a month. Oh, he cried, but
there was nothing we could do but to put same lard or butter on it.
Q: Did you have feather beds to sleep on?
A: Yes, everybody had to have feather beds.
Q: That must have been nice and warm?
A: It was. That's how we kept warn. Some of them had--for each bed
mother had a feather bed quilt, just about that thick all filled with
feathers. She'd sewed it by hand and most every house in town would have
what they called a quilting horse. Women would sew the patches or emblems
on them and then they'd roll it up. When they got it rolled up they'd
have a quilt done. They'd have quilting bees. Some woman would have a
quilt or two. They could make a couple quilts in an afternoon.
Q: Some sort of a social gathering?
A: Yes. Back when they were first started here, I can remember this
when I was little. Mr. Stout, who ran the drug store and he told me
about this now. I didn' t see it. He said, "Howard, you know, we use to
have a singing school." I was young fellow about 18 years old when he
told me this. Be said, "They had a singing school and we'd meet at Mrs.
~rown's for the day." He said we had a teacher here that knew a little
about singing and he'd sing a song and a verse and then we'd all sing it
and that' s how they learned the song. Everybody in town would learn the
songs, church songs and otherwise. When they got--Mrs. Brown, maybe next
week, she'd serve a glass of water and then next week, Mrs. O'Brien would
serve a piece of cake and the next house they served cookies and a cookie
and a drink for them. That's where they got the saying, "Try to outdo
the Jones."
Broke up the singing school, they served them too much. It broke up, the
singing school and then he said they finally got a band organized here
then. They used to have a big wagon and it had seats across there like
that. You've seen pictures of them like a circus. You've probably seen
them in a circus parade. The band wagon was pulled by horses and that's
what they called the band wagon. Auburn would take their band wagon and
the band would go to Waverly. They'd have a picnic and Auburn would play
fox them and then later in Auburn or Virden. Every town had a band
wagon.
Q: Back in the olden days, did people have player pianos and Victrolas
and things like that in their homes?

Howard Herron 84
A: Didn't know what they were.
Q: You didn' t have one?
A: Didn't even know they existed.
Q: Where did they get their instruments, these that were able to play in
the band?
A: Oh, I don't know, they had a few horns and base fiddles and violins
and banjos and accordions and French harps and all that stuff, but I
don't know where they got it, I guess they sent to Sears Roebuck and got
them. My mother and my father and his brother, my uncle they'd, we lived
by them, an alley between us. They'd send down to the Sears Roebuck and
get a big order between them. We'd get sugar and everything else there,
Sears Roebuck. They'd ship it in and. . . .
Q: Did Sears and Roebuck put a catalog out back in your days?
A: Yes, everybody had to have a catalog in the privy. (laughs) By fall
you were over in the harness section. (laughs)
Q: Well on the hottest days of the year I guess everybody was pretty
glad when electric fans were invented?
A: Whoever was thrashing on the farms, he would have a dinner, they
always fixed a nice dinner. Neighbors would help and they'd have big
long tables and they could seat 18 to 20 at a table and they had them
dinners. I can't remember what I wanted to tell you.
Q: During the summertime when they had electric fans.
A: Oh yes. The flies, they had the screen doors, the best they could
get. And of course when you opened the screen doors they would get in
and all the girls, young ladies, would want to see the boys too. They'd
come in for dinner and they had great big limbs they cut off the trees
with the leaves on them and they'd stand by the table and fight the flies
off for you. That was their (girls) job. The boys that worked out in
the field.
Q: Just like the king and his harem then?
A: (laughter) Not quite. Many a match was made I guess through that.
I know that's where I met my wife was helping thrash over there. I told
you that before.
Q: When was the first time that you had a radio in your home?
A: After I got married.
Q: Did you have a favorite radio program back in those days?
A: Some fellows gave chain stores the dickins. Everybody would listen
to him. A fellow by the name of Kessler here used to make radios and

Howard Herron 85
he'd get those plastic boards and saw them and they come ordered that
way. You could order one and then he knew how to do it. He was an
electrician.
Q: He would put it together?
A: He would put it together. That was the first radio. They would squeal
and squaw and we had an awful time getting them tuned in. Dr. Britton came
in the drug store one morning and he said everybody had to tell what program
they got last night. He said, "Well, I got chili last night." I said, "You
did?" He said, "Yes, yes, I did, 1 got it on my vest." (laughs)
Another story he said, I don't know if you want to write this or not. 1
used to get constipated once in a while and then I'd have to call the
doctor. Doc Britton here, he'd come and he said, "Now Howard, I'm getting
tired of coming out here and opening you up." He said keep my head cool
and my feet warm and my bowels open and I'd do fine.
Q: He had a philosophy for lots of things along with his medication.
End of Tape Four, Side One
A: Well, when Auburn had the first fish fry his [Doc Brittoa] office is
over there on that southeast corner of the square, northeast corner of the
square and they'd always put the merry-go-round there. His barn was back
there and I always took care of Doc Britton's horses for him. I always
loved horses even when I rode them in the races here. This old fellow that
owned the merry-go-round he said--Doc House was standing there and old
Doc had his arm around me. He took my hat off and swished my hair and he
told this old fellow that owned the merry-go-round. "This is my boy."
He didn't have a boy at that time. He had a boy later on and he said,
h his is my boy." He said, "~r. Britton, if this is your boy ," he put
his arm around my shoulder and he said, "Sonny, boy, you can ride this
merry-go-round anytime for nothing. You get on and ride." So I did, I
was the envy of the town. (laughs) I'd just hop on and ride until I'd
get tired and I'd hop off and on. I told Doc Britton, I said, "He told
me to do that." Every year they would come back there and I'd say, "I'm
DOC ~ ritton's boy." And he said, "Oh, 1 ain't forgot you." And I had it
good for two or three years. I would ride that merry-go-round. (laughs)
Q: But did you have a favorite radio program, did you like Fibber McGee
OF. . . .
A: Fibber McGee and Molly and Amos and Andy and that's about it.
Q: And you got all the news I guess?
A: We got WLS from Chicago and they had. . . . I can't remember.

Howard Herron 86
Q: Did you ever hear Lawrence Welk?
A: No, he wasn't even born then.
Q: He wasn't?
A: I don't suppose.
Q: Was that the closest radio station you had, WLS?
A: St. Louis. KSD in St. Louis and WLS in Chicago. They had a quartet.
Q: Barbershop?
A: No, I can't think of their name.
Q: Would it be on the radio you mean?
A: The Blue Ridge Mountain Boys or something like that.
Q: Oh.
A: And they were a quartet.
Q: Did the people of Auburn like square dancing and that kind of music
when you were young?
A: Well, when I was a kid they did but when I was able to go to dances
they didn't. They had them at their homes out in the country. If
somebody was going to have a dance, everybody was invited, everybody
would tell everybody. You didn't have any special people, just word of
mouth. I was chairman up there, I told you about that.
Q: What was the population of Auburn along the time that you were a
teenager ?
A: I don't suppose it was over 1500 people.
Q: Well, that's pretty good. It hasn't grown all that much since you
were a teenager, has it?
A: I said 1500, I guess.
Q: Well, it's about twice that now.
A: Well, it wasn't that big. I don't suppose there was even a thousand
people here.
Q: And everybody knew everybody?
A: Oh, yes. When I was in business over here I knew everybody and pert
near how much money they had in the bank. They don't think I did but I
thought I did.

Howard Herron 8 7
Q: So if somebody was in need most of the neighbors sort of took over
and helped?
A: Oh yes. When there was a child born on the block well they'd help.
The day before two or three mid-wives in town they'd say, "We're going to
have a ganny dance, figure we're going to have the ganny dance tomorrow."
They figured the baby would be born tomorrow and they called them ganny
dances. They'd say so-and-so is going to have a ganny dance tomorrow.
Q: So the women made little baby clothes.
A: One would boil the water and the other would boil the chicken and
have chicken soup and they'd get ready for it. Everybody helped each
other.
Q: That's nice. Do you think there's so much of that nowadays?
A: Well, there's more or less--when my wife died, we belonged to the
Methodist Church and she taught Sunday School, and she helped them with
church work too. When the funeral was over, refreshments would be served
at the church. When you got there you didn't ever see such dinner in
your life. Everybody brought dishes of food and ham and chicken.
Everybody at the funeral was welcome to come. And of course, I give a
donation to the church because the people that did it did it out of the
goodnesss of their heart and I made a donation to the church for it.
They did a good job. I would give it to the church anyway. But that's
the way, everybody helped each other.
Q: Well, people still care, but they seem to be going at a faster pace
nowadays, don't you think?
A: Well, it was nothing to walk into town three or four miles in them
days. If you didn't have a horse and buggy, you'd walk.
Q: If you would ask a kid to walk that far now, they'd think that was a
terrible thing, wouldn't they?
A: Well, they would have their father prosecuted. These kids go along
here everyday. They eat and go to school and they want allowance. Well,
I didn't know what an allowance was in my life until I got to working for
myself and I made my own allowance. Course my dad was--I'll never
forget one time he said--we had three sweet potatoes rows. My dad said,
"Boys, there's three boys and three rows of sweet potatoes. You can cut
all the weeds out of them sweet potatoes and you can go to Virden to the
picnic and 1'11 give you a dollar a piece." We thought that was a fine
thing, and it was. It cost a nickel to go down and a nickel to come back
and we had all of that money to spend. Our rides would never cost over a
dime in them days and now they're 75~, 8 5 ~ and maybe a dollar, I don't
know. I haven't been on the merry-go-round lately.
Q: Well, you were talking about the sweet potatoes.
A: Oh, yes, about 11:00, we was just finishing up and we had them all
done. A big black cloud come up and thunder started to roar and it was

Howard Herron 8 8
just pouring down rain. Dad said, "Oh boys, you better stay home I
guess, you can go next week." But that took all the joy out of it, that
rain. We was all set to go to Virden to that carnival. We were treated
good as we could be.
Q: Do you think kids are more spoiled today than they used to be?
A: Oh yes, you had your chores to do. We had a coal house and a cob
house and a wood shed. And during the summer when we would go home from
school, we would go through the alleys. The stores would have a pile of
boxes, they'd ship oranges in crates, and they'd have crackers in boxes
and loose crackers and oyster crackers in boxes. We'd get one of them
boxes, and especially if it was raining, we'd cover our heads with it and
walk on home. When we got home we'd cut that all up and put it in the
wood house shed and they'd have us take a batch in every night for the
cook stove to build a fire. We had a big chunk like this to put in the
heating stove and it would hold all night and it would heat up the house.
We had our chores to do and we had them done. You had to get out and do
it after dark.
Q: Did parents punish their children more do you think in those days? I
mean did you ever get spankings or. . . .
A: I don' t, I can' t even remember when my father spanked me. I knew if
I had to do it and I was taught, you was taught when you were little.
Q: You had your responsibilities.
A: I remember one time we was down in Kentucky. I wasn't there, my wife
was telling me about it, but she was born and raised in Kentucky and now
they feed the kids first. We didn't get fed first, we would wait till
the old folks ate and then we got to eat. She said her cousin Jack was
sitting at the back porch and he started to cry. He said, "There goes
the last piece of chicken, we're not going to get any." So that's the
way it was. But there was always plenty for the kids. You weren't
robbed blind, you were told. You were told what you had to do and you
knew you had to do it and you did it. But it's got away.
Q: I think it would be very difficult on these spoiled children if there
ever came a time when things not so easy. Jobs are harder to get and
money is tighter. I think they're going to find it more difficult.
A: They don't how what hard times are. Getting back to Dr. Britton.
He later on had a boy and a daughter and I was older than them and his
boy was kind of a sissified kid in a way. They called him "Sister Red"
at school. And he said to me, "There's one thing about it." I said,
hat's that DOC?" He said, "He's got a champagne appetite and a peanut
income." He always wanted the best. Of course Doc didn't give it to
him. He said he had a champagne appetite and a peanut income. I never
did forget that.
Q: Do you think discipline in school was better in your days than it is
today?

Howard Herron 89
A: Yes, I got spanked the first day I went to school. Minnie
Christianson, it wasn't my fault, I told you about that.
Q: Back in those days they did spank children?
A: Yes, sir. They knew when to behave too.
Q: Embarrassed you in front of your classmates and now they don't do
that.
A: I remember I was in the fourth grade and Miss Leila Smith was my
teacher. She had a hat with a red bird on it and it happened right over
here on this corner. They had a big tree with a bush like what they
called snowballs, in the summer they were white. Cockie Bowman, they
called him Cockie because he was always cocky. He threw a snowball as
she went by. He cut loose of the snowball and he hit that hat and
knocked her hat off. She saw who it was and she was in our class too and
school didn't more than take up and she said, "Charles Bowman, come down
here." He got down there and she had her paddle and she said, "Lay down
on this bench." That was a recitation bench. Everybody marched up. . . .
Q: Recitation bench?
A: It was a big long bench in front of the school room and so she
started working on him. He jumped up all the time. She said, "Come
here, Andrew." Andrew was a guy that everybody called him Corky. She
said, "Sit right down on his head." He sat right down on the top of his
head and boy she flew into him with that paddle good. I never did forget
that. Corky Bernard, they're both dead. I guess I'm about the only one
living in the whole durn works.
Q: What do you think about the kids now, that in some of the schools the
teachers have to have policeman in the hallway to protect the teachers?
A: Terrible, terrible. I don't know what's going to come.
Q: Do you think it's their upbringing?
A: Well, I would think it begins at home. Well, I tell you I can see it
now and I probably was a party to it more or less. But my son, I'm proud
of him. He never gave me any trouble in any way and he's retired. He
was Supervisor of Engineers for the Bell Telephone Company in Chicago.
Anyway, if you're taught at home how to behave-- and we taught Tommy to
always be nice to elderly people and to this day if he sees an old lady
going across the street, he would help her. He even did that when he was
a little kid and I always told him that was a nice thing to do.
I told him one time, there was some kids out to our house, it was a small
place about twelve acres of pasture and all, and there was a big chicken
house there. I had some chickens, I was raising a few chickens and there
was three or four kids there playing with Tom and they were about four
or five years old. And one of them left the door open and the chickens
got out and I wanted to know who did that. None of them spoke up and

Howard Herron 90
finally Tom said, "I: did it, Daddy." And so when they left I said, "Come
on, Tom, I want to talk to you." He came over and sat down by me. I
said, "~'m going to tell you something now, I'll stick with you if you'll
always tell me the truth. I'll stick with you, anything but murder. I
won't stick with you for that. And I don't think he ever told me a lie,
I don't believe he did. I told him when he was in high school, "Now
Tommy, you're in high school and you're going to be going with the girls.
Pick out the girl that you might want to make your wife," I said.
We got in the car and we drove over to Tobin's farm, they raised Black
Angus cattle. I said, "You see thase cattle over there." I said, "They're
all pure bred." I said, "When you get married, marry a pure bred. Check
in their family and see if there is any criminals in the family and no
tuberculosis." It was terrible in those days. If you got TB you was a
1 I
goner". They help that now with medicine. So when 1 laid in the hospital
in Milwaukee and he was working--he was a lineman then for the Bell
Telephone Company. He had about three or four years in, two years in by
that time. He was working in Beardstown and we lived in Springfield. He
met a girl there, a telephone operator over there. I told him to pick a
girl with character. "Look at her mother, chances are your wife will
look like her mother." You know I was in Milwaukee in this hospital in
the bed laying there, and I got a letter from him and he said, in his
closing statement, "Dad, I think I met the girl I want to make my wife."
And down at the bottom he said, 'IPS, she's a thoroughbred."
Q: Oh, he remembered that.
A: I was kind of glad. He's been a good boy. He's retired and he don't
have to want for anything.
Q: Do you remember when Dr. Malmberg came to town?
A: Yes, sir. He didn't have nothing but his suitcase and he lived in a
little four room house down here on Fifth Street here. He had an office
where there's a chiropractor here now, what's his name? His office was
there then.
Q: Dr. Kessler?
A: Yes, that's where Malmberg's office was then and he did real good
here. Dr. Malmberg was well liked.
Q: So he was not a rich man when he came here?
A: No, he made it himself.
Q: He later became Mayor of Auburn?
A: Yes. And I don't know, he built that building out there where they're
at now. This Parks Home over here was given to them by Mrs. Parks and it
was just a frame building, a big two story frame building. It had a lot
of room. And they owed $1800 and my father-in-law was over there and of
course he was 87 years old. We wanted him to come in off the farm and go
over there. He had his own room and it was $65 a month was all it cost
him. Room and board and everything else and he was allowed to bring his
own furniture in.

Howard Herron 9 1
Mrs. Church told me, we can never raise enough money to pay off this
mortgage that we owe, $1800. So I said, "Well, I'll see what I can do
about it." I had a friend that was a farmer out here and I said, "He
always come to me for advice and everything." I said, "Paul," I said,
"What are you going to do with your money when you die?" He had quite a
bit of land and I said, "If you'd give $300 and I'd give $200, we can
raise enough money to pay off that mortgage for them, the Parks Home."
He said, "Let them get their money like I got mine."
So I just didn't think anymore of it and then about a week after that
why, or two weeks maybe he come up, he lived up in the west end of town,
he came down and wanted to know about things. He drove up and I was
reading the paper under the shade tree and it was early in the morning
about 8:OO. He sat around and sat around and I said, "What's on your
mind, Paul, what do you want now?" He said, "You know you were talking
about raising that money over there for Parks Home." I said, "Yes, I'm
still trying." He said, "I believe I'll take you up on that." I said,
"All, right." So we started and we finally--it wasn't about two weeks,
and so he said, ''I'll give you $200 don't put it down as Beatty Implement
Company. I don't want people to know how much I give and I'm not doing
it for advertising," he said. We did put down Beatty Implement Company
but we didn't say how much.
Some people just gave us a dollar. We had the Auburn paper publish it
every week. It was almost two or three weeks at the most. Some gave $5,
$10, some $1, $2, $2.50 but we never upt it down how much and so we got
it raised.
I think it was $3,000, I went down to see Mrs. Church. We took it and
paid off the note and it was marked paid. I took it back there and she
cried and we gave her the rest of the money and said, "Just take the rest
of this money and I: don't know who to give it back to, you buy things
that you need here." So then about a year after that, well, when we got
back home T said to Paul, "Now tell me the truth. How much did that
lower your income tax by?" He said, "Oh, Howard you're too smart." I
said, "It put you in lower income tax bracket, didn't it?"
About two years later Dr. Malmberg called me one day and he said, "Howard,
did you ever keep the records of the money you raised to pay off that
home over there?" "I did," I said, "I got the little book and I got the
amount everybody gave." He said, "Can we have it?" I said, "For what
purpose?" He said, "Well, it was for business purpose." He said, "For
business purposes but I'll tell you, I'm figuring on buying it." He
said, "I hope you don' t tell anyone." Be didn' t want it to be known yet.
So I said, "Yes, you can have it but I want it back." And I still got it
and he said give it to Mary, his secretary and he said, "Now, we're going
to send everybody a letter that donated telling them they could have
their money back or they could take stock in the place." I said, "That's
fine, that's all right." Pert near everyone took their money back because
they knew it was going to be personal. So Beatty and Malmberg practically
owned that nursing home.
Q: Before it was a nursing home, when it was a two story white frame
building, who lived there?

Howard Herron 9 2
A: Mss Izzie Parks. She belonged to the Advent Christian Church and
she gave it to them to operate a home.
Q: Did she live there alone?
A: Oh yes. Well, her sisters and folks all died off but she lived there
by herself and she had a cow. And she had a man come and milk the cow
for her and work around the yard.
Q: Wasn't that a big long yard with a drive right up through some walnut
tree?
A: All those trees there, well, you know where that home is now.
Q: Yes.
A: Right down south clear out there, there were two rows of trees in the
driveway and a sidewalk.
Q: It must have been beautiful?
A: It was and on the west side of it was two or three apple trees and us
kids would eat them. The school building was right where this one is now
and all that was school yard and an outside toilet. The girls was on one
side, on the south side and the boys on the north side. Didn't have
plumbing in those days. There were two apple trees along in there and we
could get one anytime we wanted an apple. It was all right with Miss
Izzie. She had them there for a purpose I guess and she was a nice
woman. She was so precise.
Q: Was she?
A: Oh she was so nice. She was a fine woman. She was so religious,
they said. She came in the drug store. She said she'd like to have a
can of concentrated falsehoods. She wouldn't say "lie". It wasn't true
but Googie Fitz made that story up about her. I don't know if there's
anything else I can tell you.
Q: Yes, I want to ask you your feelings about some things. Do you feel
that the country is doing enough for the elderly?
A: Well, I don't know, I really don't think that they do.
Q: Do you feel that the social security laws are fair to widows who have
never worked?
A: Social security laws are only fair to the doctors. The American
Medical Association, all the doctors contributed to a lot of money to
fight social security law. They finally got the social security law
through after all and it was the greatest bonanza that happened. The
doctors were afraid there was going to be a set price. They could all
lay a charge, that's the reason why they fought it and now that they got
it why, look at the price that the doctors get. Social security for
instance, my doctor bill for instance, was $20, office call, $18 or $20

Howard Herron 93
an office call. They don't regulate the price the doctors can charge at
all. There's Medicare. Now you pay extra for that Medicare. You have
to pay the doctor and then you send your bill to them and they'll send
you 80 percent of what they call reasonable doctor's charge. They have
an $18 office call, they'll say $10 is a reasonable charge and that's all
they'll pay, 80 percent of that $10.
Q: I saw on TV the other night that social security funds will be short.
A: I saw that too. They predicted if Reagan was elected, Reagan said
that he wanted to put the social security in the hands of the states and
make it be voluntary. But it would never work. It was voluntary before
because the young folks had to keep the old folks and the old folks wore
themselves out raising the yaung ones.
Q: Do you think that was a good thing that the grandparents lived with
the children and raised the young children while they, the children went
out to work?
A: Well, it had to be.
Q: But you as an older person prefer to live independently?
A: hat's the reason ~ ' m here now, I don't want to ever have to go to
the nursing home. My wife had to go there and it cost me $30,000 for two
and a half years for her to stay in Parks Home. That didn't pay the
doctor bill, or the drug store. But I don't regret it. 1'm just happy
that I had it to do with.
Q: But you really prefer to live alone? You would not like to live with
your son and daughter-in-law?
A: No house is big enough for two people, two families. My father-in-law
and my wife and her sister and their brother, he's got a nice farm around
here. We wanted him to quit the farm and come and stay with us three
months or four months and then her four months and then with Bud four
months. He said, "No way." He said, "No house is big enough for two
families." He said, "I got my ways and you've got your ways." Be said,
"1'11 get in your hair and you'll get in my hair and we won't be friends
and we won't be relatives anymore, we'll be enemies. T want it this
way. "
So one day, we couldn't get him to leave the farm, and my wife and I and
Tommy we moved out there. My wife kept the house for him and cooking and
everything. So one day I was out there I was listening then to a football
game one Sunday afternoon and he was sitting in there in his chair. He
hollered out, "Howard, do you suppose there is a place over there at
Parks Home so I can get a room there." I said, "Boy." I jumped up and I
said, "1 don't know but we can sure find out in a hurry."
And we got in the car and rode over there. He said, "Mr. Nuckols, we got
a nice front room here and you can bring your own dresser and your bed
and everything here and put it in here. It'll be $65 a month and you'll
get your board and everything else for that and care and everything." He

Howard Herron 9 4
said he wanted to move in right away. He said, "You can't, Mr. Nuckols.
You have to wait until we have it painted and redecorate it and everything.
It will take about four days," they said.
So they repainted it and decorated it up and he lived there until he
died. He was happy. He walked down, he'd shovel snow from that Parks
Home clear around here to this street. ~e'd get up early in the morning
and he'd come up here and walk around the square. The fellows he used to
trade with, the harness maker and the blacksmith and my brother-in-law,
or my brother and my sister-in-law. They ran a restaurant or cafe on the
west side of the square right, where that Kay's store used to be, and
she'd always put a piece of pie and then he'd go on down there. Mrs.
Church spoiled him too. We had him come down to our house for dinner on
Sunday and holidays and shortly after dinner he'd soon get tired and he'd
say, "Howard, if you ain't real busy, I'll just let you take me home."
He was happy and we took him home. Mrs. Church wauld put a piece of pie
back for him. They were all that way. Course it wasn't as populated
over there as they are now. It's a big thing now. There was only half a
dozen, maybe ten at the most over there in them days.
Q: Howard, who is the most important person you ever met?
A: Well, I don' t know, that would be hard to say.
Q: That's hard to say.
A: I m et some captains in the navy who was great men.
Q: Did you ever know any governors?
A: Yes, I did know Governor Dunn, no, Governor Horner. Everybody liked
Governor Horner. He was a fine man. He was a Democrat but the Republicans
and Democrats and everyone, all he had to do was run and he got elected.
When he died, he died of a heart attack and his entire estate was $600
and he could have been a millionaire. If it had been anybody else. . . .
but Horner's entire estate was $600 and he was an honest man. The funny
part of it was the Illinois State Journal was a Republican paper and the
Illinois State Register was a Democrat paper and they were both for
Horner. It didn't make much difference what politics they had, they were
for Horner. He was a good man and I went to a football game over in
Champaign the day they dedicated the stadium there and that's the day
that Red Grange ran wild over Michigan.
This side of the river there was a little place there that sold chili and
hot dogs. We pulled in there and Horner was there with his driver, he
(Horner) was a bachelor and his driver and a couple of fellows he had
with him were getting a hot dog. There was a little kid standing there
and he was looking at Governor Horner. Governor Horner was a pretty good
sized man and you wouldn't even think Horner was even noticing that kid.
But Horner said to that kid, "You want a bite?" And that kid took a bite
and he said, "Now you can have it, 1'11 get myself another one." That's
the things he would do. He was just a good man.

Howard Herron 95
Q: Howard, who did you most admire in your life time, was there someone
you really admired?
A: Franklin D. Roosevelt, he was a great man. When this country was
down in the dumps, he. . . . I bought a house here for $400, over here
from the First Federal Savings and Loan. And I didn't have to pay
anything down, all I had to do was start paying the monthly payments that
the fellow owed. The mortgage was much more than that but they let me
have it at that price. Then I bought another house up there when they
had an auction and I bought a house for $1500 and the house sold for
3,000 in a year or two years after that.
In the meantime, every bank went broke and people was losing everything
they had. Closed everything they had down and they had to prove they
could operate in the black, instead of the red or they couldn't open.
Then the Bank Examiner's examined it and that's when they opened the
banks. Then he put out a WPA, what they called a Works Progress
Administration. That's how we got the City Water Works here in Auburn is
through the WPA. We didn't have the money and they furnish the money for
the wages to put these men to work and then when they got working and
they got money, they became taxpayers. That was one of the reasons I was
voting for Carter was because he was going to do the same thing. That
was his motto. I admired Roosevelt, I believe, better than any of them.
Woodrow Wilson was a good man. He was a better educated man maybe than
Roosevelt but he didn't have the know how that Roosevelt did. I always
thought Franklin D. Roosevelt was, and his wife would be next, because
she was a wonderful woman too. You probably read of her.
Q: Eleanor
A: Eleanor Roosevelt. Those two were about the most famous people that
I admired.
9: Where is the prettiest place you've ever been in your lifetime?
A: I believe Florida. Florida is the prettiest place. I went down
there in the wintertime and it was summer down there. This Kapok Tree, I
showed you there, restaurants there and fine places. If you ordered a
steak and you wanted it medium well, you got a pink pick stuck in the
steak it was medium, and if it was rare it would be red and if it was
well done it would be brownish like. That's the way it was in the
restaurants. You had to sit and wait. The whole state of Florida, I
wasn't there only one winter. But towards the last I didn't like the way
it started raining a lot like that but then I went to Phoenix, Arizona.
My wife and I went to Phoenix, Arizona for six winters. 1 had a nephew
and a niece out there.
Q: Did you think that was pretty?
A: It was pretty there but it was sandy and deserts but this Florida was
all greening and in flowers. It was pretty and it was real nice.
Q: Well, Howard, we're almost at the end of our interview and I just
want to thank you so much for confiding in me a11 of your experiences.

Howard Herron 9 6
There will be a lot of people in the future that will be very happy to
read about your lifetime. I appreciate that very much.
End of Tape Four, Side Two
Q: Well, Howard, you wanted to talk to me a little bit about the coal
mining days.
A: Well in the days the mines would lay idle. Lots of times in the
summer; the first of April, the mines would be shut down, because the
houses weren't being heated and they din't need the coal. They took the
mules out of the mines by putting hoods over their heads. The cage they
brought them up in was small. The mules were then put out into the
pastures. In the fall they put them back into the mines.
Q: Why did they put the hoods on their heads? To keep them from being
frightened?
A: Well, they were coming out of the dark. They had been in the dark
for about six months. They would let them get use to the light easy.
Auburn also had slaughter houses.
Q: What was the name of that?
A: Faust's Slaughter House. They would kill the cattle there and butcher
them. In those days a butcher house, or butcher shop, as it was called,
handled nothing but meat. Faust had one on the south side of the square
and Riehle had one on the east side of the square, about where Vi's
Beauty Parlor is now. Right in that same spot. When the mines were
idle, the men would loaf by the slaughter house. There were a lot of
trees out there, a lot of nice trees, shady grass. The men played poker,
rum, seven-up and just anything to enjoy them-selves. They would always
have a big keg of beer. They called that the "Coconut Grove".
Q: After the big night club?
A: Well, that was no night club. It was just a daytime affair. They
were starting to talk prohibition then. One day someone in town swore
out a warrant and had them arrested. They went out and arrested a whole
bunch of the miners and brought them in. They brought them before the
police magistrate and he was one of them, had been all day. They were
brought before him and he fined everyone of them $8.00 and he was one of
them. (laughs)
Q: Did they get upset with him?
A: Oh yes, they did. I know that happened, but I don't know what
happened after that.
Q: Who was the police magistrate then?

Howard Herron 9 7
A: A man named Grant. They called him Ulysses S. Grant, but that wasn't
his name, that was his nickname. There was another justice of the peace.
His name was MacMurdo. There was always a race between he and Judge
Nuchols to who would be the justice of the peace. Then, another fellow
got in who wanted to be the justice of the peace too. Course they only
elected one. His name was Halford, Frank Balford. They called him
llChappyll Halford for a nickame. I remember one instance very clearly,
There was a Lithuanian man and his wife came into his office. His office
was in the hotel, south of the theatre which is closed now. They said,
'We want a divorce." He said, "All right you buggers." He was an Englishman.
So, he wrote out some kind of papers. He had no more legal right to give
them a divorce than you or I. And, so they left. They were drunk. They
left arm in arm, although they were divorced. Later they came back that
same evening after sleeping it off and wanted to get married again. I
happened to be there at the time. Old happy" Halford said, "Where is
that bloody paper I gave you?" You know how the British talk. He said,
"Gimme that bloody paper." So, they gave him the paper and he tore it up
and said, "You're married again. Go right ahead, you're married again
now." The man said, "She has to kiss the feet. In my country when you
get a divorce, you have to kiss the feet." Old Chappy said, "Get out.
There'll be no kissing the feet or the behinds either in this place.
You're divorced now, get out." He charged them $25.00 when he divorced
them and $25.00 when he married them. (laughs)
Every summer a Chautauqua would be here. There would always be
entertainment. I remember one time they had Billy Brian speak here.
This was the beginning of pushing for prohibition. They kept at it and
kept at it. Every year they would have a prohibition in the school yard.
They had a big tent and raised a little money there. Everyone bought a
season ticket. They had entertainment and a good speaker. So,
eventually they had an election in Auburn Township. The city of Auburn
voted for prohibition.
No liquor could be sold in the city of Auburn, but outside the city
corporate limits, outside in the township--the township was wet and they
city was dry. That went on for two or three years. "Bubby" Jacobs at
the livery barn had a Ford Model-T train car and Ed Orr had a Ford Model-T
train car and they had a shuttle bus from Auburn to Thayer. Thayer had
saloons; that was still in Auburn Township. They would take the miners
or whaever wanted to go and charge them twenty-five cents for a round
trip. They would haul them down and they would drink all they wanted and
they would have their stub to get back and they would bring them home.
That was Jacobs and Orr.
Q: Can you tell me a little more about the Chautauqua? That sounds like
an Indian name. What was the purpose of that?
A: The Chautauqua? It was educational. There were quartets and bands
and lectures. The Chautauqua would last for maybe three weeks, right out
here by the schoolhouse. They had a program and you had to pay admission.
The basic of it was prohibition.

Howard Herron 98
Q: Did they bring their own seats?
A: Oh, no. They had a big tent and the seats were folding chairs. They
had a stage.
Q: Who helped them put it up? Did they ask some of the boys from Auburn
to help them?
A: Well, they had a Chautauqua Committee. They had everything put up and
ready and took tickets at the door. It always ended up with a speaker.
His topic was life in general and what prohibition was doing to the
country; causing divorces and . . . .
Q: I wasn't aware that anyone could vote on whether they could have
taverns or not after the amendment was passed.
A: Well, this was before the amendment.
Q: And there was lots of turmoil in every county and every city?
A: This brought about the Volstead Act, which was prohibition in the
whole United States.
Q: Were there lots of women involved in getting rid of the taverns?
A: Oh, mostly, mostly.
Q: They objected to the men spending their money that way?
A: Yes. And they had carnivals that would come in here. That may be
digressing a little bit. They had carnivals come in here on a train,
they had three or four passenger cars like. They had their tents and
merry-go-rounds and everything else. They would pull their cars in out
here at the park by the railroad, where the depot use to be. They would
unload there in a circle. They didn't have hard roads then, so they
traveled by train. I remember one time they had a balloon ascension.
They would have a big trench built and they would throw hot water,
kerosene rather, and the heat from the kerosene and wood would raise the
balloon and a man would parachute out. That was the main attraction.
Q: Did the balloon come back down where they could get it again?
A: Oh yes. That was a business.
Q: Did the carnivals have their om trains?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the people live in the cars?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did they get off the track?

Howard Herron 99
A: They stayed right on the track.
Q: They switched off then.
A: Yes, right by the elevator and the lumber yard. The land near there
was all vacant and that's where they would hold the carnivals. One time
they had what they called a hootchie-kootchie show. That was a girlie
show. They would tell, "They're going to take them all off tonight,
boy." (laughs) I remember one time "Scoop" Gallagher's wife and Mae
Leach and three or four women--I don't remember the rest of the names--Doc
Laird was the mayor. After midnight this show was to go on for men only.
These women waited until the show got started and the men all got in
there and they had their butcher knives and they went around and cut the
ropes and the tent fell in. It was the awfulest scramble of men you ever
heard tell of. That was the end of the hootchie-kootchie show. (laughs)
Q: Were you sorry the day the depot was torn down?
A: It didn't make any difference to me.
Q: You didn't think they should keep it and maybe use it for a museum?
A: No. I know where lots of the brick are that were in it. My nephew
got a lot of the brick. He's going to build a building of some kind.
The bricks are hauled away, because the railroad wanted them hauled away
so they don't have to pay taxes on it. I told you about the shuttle
buses. In the spring or summer of the year I know two men would take
great big wagons to Beardstown. Beardstown was known for its watermelon.
They would take about a day and a half to drive to Beardstown. They'd
load up a load of melons and then come back here and then peddle those
melons. They would drive up the streets and sell the melons.
Q: About how much was a melon in those days?
A: A quarter.
Q: Have you tried to buy one lately? Do you have any idea how much they
are?
A: About $2 now. Maybe I'm a little chintzy, but I make a list now when
I go to Springfield to shop.
Q: Then you think there's quite a bit of savings to go to Springfield
shopping?
A: Oh, no question about it.
Q: What about the gasoline it takes though?
A: That would have to be taken into consideration. You would have to
make a list of what you need and if you don't offset the cost of the
gasoline you're just as well off to shop here. But, not many do that.
You can go out here and see carts just full. They have about $100 worth
in them.

Howard Herron
Q: I'm like you though. With my large family I save more by going to
Springfield. It's kind of a shame because small towns are very nice for
a lot of things. We have nice shops like the flower shop. That's a real
convenience.
A: Use to be in Auburn we had three barber shops. They employed seven
barbers. Now we have only one barber shop.
Q: And one chair I guess?
A: Yes, one chair and they let their hair grow. I don't let mine grow.
I couldn't do that at all.
Q: What did a haircut cost back in the day of the three barber shops?
A: Twenty-five cents. Then they raised to thirty-five.
Q: Was that sort of a place to go and just catch up on the news?
A: Oh yes. While you were waiting your turn someone had something to
say.
Q: Do you think men are just as much gossips as women?
A: No. I don't think they are. My wife use to tell me some stories
that I would never hear in the barber shop. There was something else I
wanted to tell you. I told you about the Methodist Church breaking down,
didn' t I?
Q: Are you a member of the Methodist Church? I saw some articles in the
paper not too long ago about their history.
A: Yes. I was about the next to the oldest one to belong there, but my
picture wasn't in there. Eva Hedrick was my Sunday School teacher.
Q: And she was a member of that church?
A: Yes. Here while back she bought a new piano for the church.
Q: I wouldn't imagine that an old maid school teacher would have very
much money.
A: Well she was always employed and they have teacher's insurance too.
And they own their own property. She and her sister live together. I
don't know whether I should tell about this or not. There was this
fellow lived in Thayer they called l lack Cat". He advertised in the
saloons down there. Of course, Auburn was dry. He advertised that he
would devour a mouse alive. They were standing up and looking over
people's heads, and sure enough, he took the mouse alive and he killed
him and right there he bit his head off and ate him. And he ate the
mouse alive. Reeves Brothers promoted the thing. It was held in their
building. And they lost a lot of business, because people were afraid to
go in and drink out of the glass that fellow drank out of.

Howard Nerron 101
Q: So they thought that something that was going to help their business
ended up hurting their business after all?
A: It sure did.
Q: Well, that was some story. I guess it takes all kinds of people. I
can't imagine anyone doing that though.
A: Getting back to prohibition. There was a wholesale house here in the
south part of town, and Bogart had a wholesale house over in the northeast
part of town, just outside the corporate limits. You could go out there
and buy a keg of beer and wheel it inside the city limits and drink it.
That was all right. But, there were no saloons in Auburn.
Q: What did some of these saloon owners do then for a living? Did they
convert their shops to something different? Clothing or anything of that
nature?
A: No. They boot-legged, mostly.
Q: I see. They sold with their doors closed, I guess?
A: All the people would go outside the town to buy.
Q: This beer that was being sold in the taverns in those days, was it
homebr ew?
A: No, it was real beer. That was before. . . .
Q: Well, what kind of beer? Can you remember any of the brands?
A: Oh, yes. Anheiser BUSC~.
Q: Bow about Reisch?
A: Reisch Brewery from Springfield, and Lamps Beer, Schlitz Beer, Pabst
Blue Ribbon.
Q: So the beer making industry was going to town then?
A: Oh, yes. That was practically what brought on prohibition. You see,
did I tell you how many churches and saloons there were?
Q: There was one more saloon than churches, Is that correct?
A: Yes, that's right.
Q: Well, it must have taken some men to vote against it.
A: Oh yes.
Q:
It couldn't have been all ladies to make it pass.

Howard Herron 102
A: No, it wasn't all Ladies.
Q: Probably a lot of the church congregations?
A: That's right. The church foundations were the ones that did it.
They had a secret ballot. They had booths and advertised before election
day. Of course, they had to get all of these legal papers to hold all of
these elections.
Q: But they repealed that amendment later on. So they must have thought
it wasn't working out too good,
A: It was working out too good, but it was national--after that came the
Volsted Act. That was the entire United States. Then that was bootleg
too. They made homebrew and made wine in their cellars.
Q: Then that was when you heard so much about the gangsters from Chicago?
A: That's right. St. Louis and New Orleans--every city. Well, finally
the people didn't want it. It was worse and caused more trouble. So
when Roosevelt was elected they did away with the Volsted Act.
Q: Did the taverns open up again immediately in Auburn?
A: Yes. For part of that they sold two percent beer, only two percent
alcohol. Then, later they sold five percent.
End of Tape Five, Side One