InRO Monthly — December 2023

my perspective anyway — and I think from their perspective as well
— in a sense you're kind of like the Beatles to them at that time.
There's this huge explosion of interest in your work and you see it
reflected in the films from that time as well. But before I talk too
much — can you tell me a little about your recollection of meeting
some of these filmmakers in 1993, and just what it was like being at
Yamagata that year, based on your own memory?
throttled for a long time and suddenly, and for a period of time, the
possibility of working independently without any government
control or minimum government control may have opened up. I can
see why people would like this technique. You can make a film
about anything as long as there's available light.
SCM: (Laughs) True.
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FW: I can't remember when I first met Wu Wenguang, whether it
was Yamagata or if he called me up when he was in the States and
came to visit me. I'd have to go over my records, because I don't
remember which came first. [Ed: It would have been at Yamagata
first.] But Wu and I got along very well, and we talked; he came to
visit me up in Maine when I was editing something or other, I don't
remember what I was editing… And I'm a bit ambivalent about the
use of my films in China, because I would've preferred that they
had asked my permission to make copies. I understand — they
probably didn't make too many copies — but my films are very
popular in China, and I think I've only arranged for the sale of one
there. And one thing I share in common with Chinese filmmakers is
that I like to eat. So I understand all the arguments — they didn’t
have much money — but I probably would have given them to them
had they asked. I don't like the idea of just making copies and
circulating.
SCM: I completely understand that concern. The thing I'm
interested in now is talking just about why they were so popular in
China, because I think you understand to a certain extent, but also
because I've talked to these filmmakers… Anyway, what's your
impression of why they were so popular in China?
FW: Well, I don't really know. I've heard they were popular in China,
but I've never…that's about as far as it goes. Nobody’s ever told me
the use they were put to or how they might have influenced them,
and I can't make any judgment about that, not having seen their
work.
SCM: Sure. I understand.
FW: So obviously I'm pleased that they liked my films and the
technique that I use. I know from the one short visit I made to
China [that the technique] is very adaptable to life there. It's
adaptable to life anywhere, but… you know, I'm troubled by talking
about anything that's unique to China. But if I'm correct in thinking
that filmmakers’ — independent filmmakers’ — activity was
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FW: And you don't need much money if you've got the equipment.
SCM: My takeaway from talking to these filmmakers about why
your approach resonated so much with them is interesting
because I think it actually cuts against what you use that approach
for a lot in your own work. And what I mean by that is these
filmmakers… you have to realize, at the end of the 1980s, which
basically you're about a 10-plus-year period into being able to even
see documentaries, because of the Cultural Revolution. And, at that
time, the only documentaries that they were seeing really were
State propaganda, State TV. But there was starting to be a bit of a
development away from that. And filmmakers, especially because
of the change in technology and the more accessible filmmaking
technologies, were trying to do things differently. But what's
interesting to me is I think what resonated with them when they
saw specifically Zoo in 1993 [at Yamagata] is they saw in direct
cinema this ability to make films that are not propaganda, but that
are instead in this observational mode, and in a sense even a
passive observation. Or at least it doesn't have to be read as
politically antagonistic.
FW: I don't think that's accurate. No, passive observation is not an
accurate description of what I do. Because it's passive in the sense
that there's no intervention, but it is not passive in the actual way
the films were made.
SCM: Absolutely.
FW: Because they require thousands of choices.
SCM: Well, I think what's so interesting is that their experience with
it bore this out. So, there's a film called The Square, from 1994. It
was one of the first films that was made in China that was really
clearly influenced by your work, and it was only a year after they
had that exposure to your films. It's an observational portrait of
Tiananmen Square in 1994, and they're trying to just observe what
it's like to see the police presence there and to see the reporters
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