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18Forever Activists continued from pg. 3what was going on no matter howmuch was happening. One of the reasonswe're ignorant is because we'retreated like mushrooms...kept inthe dark, piled over with shit and wegrow fine. And we contributebecause we continually buy the productsthat run the media—networkespecially—with Procter and Gamble,General Foods and all that stuff.Issues: You think media excludeswomen from the power structure?Flo: Why would they include us inthe power structure when by leavingus out, they have one less crowd toworry about? Now, if they decide,because Jesse Helms is so antiwomenand anti-media, to recruit usto join them to fight the right wing,we might get some results...but,right now they treat us like enemies.Although we may soon be the onlyfriends they have, between onegroup and another, Ted Turner, JesseHelms and all these other entrepreneursand merger-makers, but it certainlywon't be because we werepolitically astute enough to press ourpoint at this moment.Issues: The women's movement hasbeen criticized for being a white,middle-class women's movementand, I think I can speak for all of us,we don't want it to be so. Somehow,we've failed to reach black women.Why haven't we been able to reach,not just black women, but women ofcolor in general?Flo: Because you're white. I thinkmore because you're white thanbecause the issues don't interestthem. In other words, I think they'remore suspicious of racism in whitepeople than they are of sexism in thecommunity in general and I think it'sdumb because I think I'm smarterthan most white people and I alsothink that's because I'm a lawyerand I'm very self-assured. No matterhow powerful and rich and anythingelse that black people are, theyreturn to a sense of powerlessnessand feeling victimized when theytalk to white people. They knowthat black people (black men especially)can be doing them in, but theydon't have the same sense of mistrustfor black people. Why shouldblacks trust whites? After all, blackpeople went into the labor movementand wound up getting trashedby unions that won't let 'em comein; and they are very accustomed tohelping people when they're tryingto be powerful politically and thenbeing left out and trashed. Thewomen's movement has been no different—nobetter—and in fact,worse, because women are very racistfrom the git go. Socialists thatdominated the labor movementwere a little smarter and were a littlemore understanding of racism ina philosophical way. But the womenin the feminist community were onlypoliticized as far as sexism went andnot politicized as far as racism orclasscism to the same extent. Howmany people work on your magazine?Issues: Six.Flo: How many black women do youhave?Issues: We have a lot of black womenat CHOICES, in every area and in allcapacities. We aren't really a magazinepublisher. CHOICES is a women'smedical center and we decided toput out On the Issues because webelieve in putting a large part of ourprofits back into the women's movement.Besides, we believe there isvery little right now in the way of areal feminist publication that dealswith a wide range of social, medicaland political issues from a feministperspective the way ours does.Flo: But you see, if you took a blackwoman working in the center andyou put her on the magazine, thenthat would be evidence that you'reinterested in black people. See, inother words, when it gets to the"goodies," they find they are invited,but they are not served.Issues: I'm not sure they'd consider ita "goodie."Flo: Well, but it's still an honor. Theyare on a masthead and they coulduse it sometime to get a job.Issues: We've never thought in termsof "white" or "black"—simply who isbest equipped to do the job.Flo: I think it's much more a questionof your not knowing enough blackpeople. They used to do that whenthey were hiring secretaries...they'dwant Lena Home at 65 words perminute, and if she left, that was theend of the black people. We tried itand it didn't work. See? But 1 thinkyou just don't know enough blackpeople and so, because you don'tknow people, you get white peoplethat you don't know to that extenteither. But you know more whitepeople and there are 10 times morewhite people than there are blackpeople. But nobody just comes offthe street... white or black. And,keep in mind, there are events thatblack people have that you don't getto, so that black people don't knowwhat you're up to and you don'tknow what they're up to.Don't forget you're goingagainst a very racist and scary andbrutal society which teaches blacksfaster than you can pay them. Peopleare very much afraid of authority.Most people believe their parentsare right. And that's why if Reagansays something, they think he's gota certain amount of right on his sideand they know he's got a certainamount of power. Their boss is probablywhite and everybody they'rescared of and mistrust are whitepeople. The more they see that blackpeople are already on board, themore they are reassured. Anotherthing—black women think you'reonly concerned about your ownissues. You're not saying anythingabout the New York Eight', or anythingthat black women are into.They want to see feminists come inwhere women are involved in theblack community, whether its abouta feminist issue or not. See, that'swhat they can understand and seegetting together with. So, they haveas much right to say "why aren't youwith them?" as you have to say"where are the black women?" I'vebeen hearing this from whitewomen ever since I started in the'60s. I still work with white womenbecause I think they're importantand I understand the pathology—butthere's no reason for black women tobe with you guys because you're notrelevant to them and you don't cometo them when the issues are simpleand simple numbers could make adifference. They're more sophisticatedand you need them worse thanthey need you. So, they don't believeyou're interested in them, and youdon't believe they're interested inyou—and you're both right. Neverthe twain shall meet.Issues: "Never" is a long time. Just inthe things we've discussed today wecan see where mistakes have beenmade and where avenues ofapproachment can be investigated.Flo: Ahh-huh."The New York Eight are four black womenand four black men with histories as majoractivists in the Black Liberation movement.In October, 1984. sometime after midnight,continued on pg. 19