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in the hallway during the McCourt divorce trial, about thisrespect or regard you give to others. You take everythingdown to a level where we’re not talking about esotericissues, we’re talking about simple issues we can all resolve.DB: If you just think about these issues, you can find commonground. If you really think through what you’re tryingto accomplish, think it through, and you find the groundthat’s sustainable, you can explain it.One of the greatest cases I ever did was defend two StudentNonviolent Coordinating Committee workers. I got them offof a traffic offense and resisting arrest in Bolivar County,Mississippi. And it was before a judge that was a product ofthe system, very biased, very antagonistic to out of state Yankeelawyers who’d come down. Ultimately he declared thedefendants not guilty. I lost a lot more of those cases thanI won, but every once in a while you won one because youwere able to make the judge see through prejudice and makea judgment that was more in keeping with the principles ofthe law. And you appeal to their principles.I tell you, part of the way I got the acquittal was crossexamining the arresting officer and making absolutely clearthat he was lying. Judges don’t like people who lie underoath even if they sympathize. It sort of stinks up their courtroomand that’s a bad mistake.LD: Where did you learn the ability to sit there and torturesomebody?DB: It’s not that different from the Socratic dialogue.LD: But it’s very uncomfortable for a lot of people.DB: Because I’m dyslexic, I grew up listening. And crossexaminationis almost equal listening, because when youare listening, you’re hearing little things. To ask whether heagrees that not allowing gays to marry while children arebeing raised by gays is not good for the children, that’s atricky question, because you narrow it down so that’s theonly thing he can say. But you have to listen. If you pick thequestions right, the only way to answer the questions tosupport what you want in the case is to lie.LD: You really enjoy that.DB: Oh yeah. No question because that is the way you getat truth. Cross examination is probably the best way wehave to really get at the truth. We put somebody on the witnessstand, call them to answer questions and it takes anextraordinary person to be able to successfully lie withoutbeing tripped up.LD: It amuses me that you’ve been at this for some timenow, and you’re not unclear about what it is you’re doing.Some lawyers still ask how does he do this?DB: Well, I will outwork the other side every single time. Atthe start of every trial, the other side starts out working ashard as I do. But at some point, they say, "I’m going to goout with my girlfriend," or spouse, go to the opera, go seethe latest movie. And at every trial I’ve ever had, the otherside stops working as hard as me – if they ever did, sometimesthey never do.The other thing is patience. I’m very patient. I will waitfor the right opportunity. I don’t try to make things happenor feel frustrated or impatient. Part of it is patienceto develop your story in a way that maybe his is the mostdramatic story in the beginning, but yours builds overtime.LD: You also have the confidence to extract that one thingabout a case, which may seem odd or underplayed to alawyer who wants to say there are 53 important things.DB: Exactly. In Microsoft, general counsel Bill Neukom,who I like, would go out and say after court, “My witnessmade 48 points,” and David Boies only attacked four ofthem. The problem was, those were the four importantones and when we attacked those four points, they had nocredibility left. He was absolutely right – I had only four ofhis 48 points, but they were what mattered!There was another case, a huge international arbitration.We defended Westinghouse against claims it bribed ahenchman of Ferdinand Marcos to get a contract with thePhillipines’ National Power Corporation. And they broughtin an expert from General Electric to testify about the contract,and there are 100 things you could ask him about. SoI asked him how many times he had read the contract. Andhe said he hadn’t. And I said, "You didn’t read the contractyourself?" He said no. And I said, "No further questions."We won the arbitration because of that and a lot of otherthings.And that was something the arbitrator really appreciatedand the other side just went berserk about. They said, "Thisis outrageous!" And I said, "Do I understand that counselfor the National Power Board is objecting that I did not askmore questions on cross examination?" Because peoplefrom time to time have objected that I ask too many questionson cross examination, but never too few.When I tried the Westmoreland case, the lead lawyeron the other side was very well prepared and very tightlywound, while I was relaxed, and he made mistakes. Heshowed a videotape and didn’t operate it right. A lot of lawyersget very agitated and yell at the tech people. I’d just saymy client is the expert in this, and I’m not. I would explainthe case and if you do that, people react a lot better thanthey react to shouting.LD: It’s an extraordinary ability to go from being comfortableand confident one moment with the judge, to utterlydestroying a witness within two sentences.DB: Well, you’ve got to have both sides. Because peoplehave both sides. If you’re dealing with somebody sometimesyou get mad at them. And what juries are looking foris authenticity, someone who is real. A jury is like 12 peoplewho you lock into a boat in a storm and they have no ideahow to get out. And then two people come along and onesays I know the way, and the other says no, I know the way.If you understand your job is to be the one that the 12jurors follow, then you can win your case. ■L A W D R A G O N 198 I s s u e 13
KIESEL BOUCHER& LARSON LLPPaul R. KieselRaymond P. BoucherKIESEL BOUCHER LARSON LLP is a plaintiffs’ law firm, specializing in classaction, mass tort, wrongful death and catastrophic personal injury matters. KBL hasprosecuted numerous California and nationwide class actions, and served as plaintiffs' liaisoncounsel in the clergy abuse claims against the Archdiocese of Los Angeles,San Diego and Orange counties.Each matter is handled by a team of attorneys and support staff. We prideourselves on the use of technology to achieve the best possible results for ourclients. Our attorneys have received numerous honors, including A-V ratingsfrom Martindale-Hubbell. Mr. Boucher was recently named Trial Lawyer of the Year by both theConsumer Attorneys of California and the Consumer Attorneys Association of Los Angeles. Mr.Kiesel and Mr. Boucher have been named to the Lawdragon 500 Leading Lawyers in America.CONTACT US AT: www.kbla.com or (310)854-4444
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