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Page 14 Senate Monday, 27 February 2017 Dr Heriot: No, Chair. CHAIR: Senator Bernardi. Senator BERNARDI: Hello, Mr Stefanic. I know you have missed me the last little while. I have a few follow-up questions for you on some of the previous discussions we have had and on some new ones. Firstly, I want to turn my mind to an incident report of June last year which I understand involved a PSS officer and supervisors. It was on 25 June. Are you familiar with that incident? Mr Stefanic: Not from memory, Senator. Perhaps I can ask Mr Cooper. Mr Cooper: I think I am aware of the incident you are referring to, Senator. Senator BERNARDI: Were any incident reports written regarding this matter? Mr Cooper: I would have to take that on notice, Senator. I am certainly aware of the incident, I have certainly received emails about the incident and I am certainly aware of discussions that have taken place about that incident. Senator BERNARDI: Let me get this right, Mr Cooper. I know the first rule of estimates is not to tell a fib, the second rule is not to give out any information that you do not want to be known and the third rule is not to embarrass the department. But you are telling me you are aware of the incident and you are aware of emails but you do not know whether any reports were written in respect of it. You want me to believe that? Mr Cooper: Senator, I would like you to believe it because it is the truth. But, also, I can find out in a matter of minutes. That was some time ago. There has been a lot of work and a lot of activity underway in security branch and, before I categorically say that to you that there was or was not an incident report—I expect there is— I will confirm that in the next few minutes. Senator BERNARDI: Sure. That is on notice and someone is getting that information in the next couple of minutes. Is that right? Mr Cooper: Yes. Senator BERNARDI: What then is the process if there is an incident between supervisors and PSS officers? Surely there must be a protocol about incidents such that reports have to be written? Mr Cooper: Yes, there is. If there was an incident it will be documented in some way, I would expect. Senator BERNARDI: What is the normal protocol? Who is asked to prepare reports in respect of these incidences? Mr Cooper: I would imagine it would be the supervisor. Other people involved in an incident would be required. If we speak about a security incident more generally, the most appropriate people involved in an incident would submit an incident report. Senator BERNARDI: So if there were two people involved in an incident both of them would be asked to put a report in? Mr Cooper: That would normally be the case, yes. Senator BERNARDI: What circumstances would there be where both people involved in an incident were not expected to provide a report? Mr Cooper: I am not sure that I can think of one. Senator BERNARDI: What I am interested in is how many reports were submitted and by whom in respect of this incident. Are we getting that information now? Mr Cooper: I can confirm that incident reports were provided and they were sent to HR. Senator BERNARDI: How many incident reports were prepared? Mr Cooper: I will have to find that out for you. Senator BERNARDI: I am sure they are listening as they are doing it. Mr Cooper: I am sure they are, Senator. The other point we should make about this incident is that, if it is clearly the one we are both talking about, it is currently under investigation within the department and it may be inappropriate to talk about it in more detail. Senator BERNARDI: It is not about the detail. I am interested in the reports. I am interested in how many reports were done and whether both the supervisor and the PSS officer were asked to make reports. Mr Cooper: I expect to have that answer for you very shortly, Senator. Senator BERNARDI: They should be able to tell you almost straightaway, shouldn't they? FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
Monday, 27 February 2017 Senate Page 15 Mr Cooper: The first answer came in quite quickly. I expect— Senator BERNARDI: What happens when a PSS officer makes a complaint under the Code of Conduct? Ms Croke: When a matter is referred to HR as a potential Code of Conduct issue, they would do a preliminary look to see if it was, in fact, a Code of Conduct issue. If they thought it looked like there was a case that should be investigated further, we would then initiate an investigation into that matter. Senator BERNARDI: When is it referred to HR, an incident like this—or in a circumstance where there is a problem in relation to the Code of Conduct? Ms Croke: It needs to be referred by the area of the department where the matter was initiated. Quite often there are discussions between supervisors and their staff, and with managers, that are managed locally—because the issue is not considered to be of such a nature that it should be referred to HR as a potential Code of Conduct issue. Where there is a case that the manager, or the person who was affected, feels it is necessary it be taken further, they can come to HR at any time. HR then makes that initial judgement. Senator BERNARDI: I asked about the time frame. If there is a complaint made, how long before it is referred to HR? Ms Croke: It depends on the nature of the complaint. It depends on to whom it is made. I can only answer from the HR point of view. When it gets to HR, we deal with those matters relatively quickly. But there may be issues that a manager feels are quite reasonable to cope with within their normal management operations. If they think there is an issue between staff, they might feel it is sufficient to sit down and talk to staff about their behaviour and what happened and to try to resolve it through a mediation process or a discussion with the staff. It depends on the extent of the incident and the issue. It is a judgement for managers to make: whether it is a serious issue that needs to be taken further. Senator BERNARDI: If a complaint is made, you would expect statements to be taken in a timely manner— is that correct? Ms Croke: There would normally be statements. Certainly at the point where we get an investigator in, the investigator, as part of the process, would talk to all of the individuals concerned. Senator BERNARDI: But the investigation into a complaint by managers should be done in a timely manner? Ms Croke: I would anticipate that managers would deal with issues within their area fairly quickly, yes. Senator BERNARDI: If it were then referred to HR, would that come under you, Ms Croke, or does that come under Mr Cooper? Ms Croke: That is in my area. Senator BERNARDI: How long would it take to get a resolution? Ms Croke: It depends what you mean by 'resolution'. I am not trying to be tricky. It also depends on the case. It might be that HR would have an initial conversation with the managers and the staff involved, and it might be able to be resolved through discussion. There might not be anything that would lead HR to believe there was a need for further investigation. If we do go down the route of doing a formal investigation of a code matter, that can take some time. Senator BERNARDI: I will go back to Mr Cooper. What was your involvement in this incident? Mr Cooper: The incident was reported to me. I sought assurance that the incident was being addressed. I am aware that there were some differences of opinion and some inconsistencies in views about the incident. I spoke personally to the person who made the initial complaint. I applied judgement and my experience to the matter, and— Senator BERNARDI: How long did it take you to apply your judgement and experience to resolve the matter? Mr Cooper: I was applying my judgement and experience to the matter from the moment it was brought to my attention? Senator BERNARDI: How long did it rest with you? Mr Cooper: It rested with me for too long at a point, and I have apologised for that. Senator BERNARDI: How long is too long? Mr Cooper: It was a number of weeks. I will just see if I have the information here. Senator BERNARDI: Weeks or months? Mr Cooper: Perhaps it is months. FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
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