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22<br />

„qronika+¨ esaubreba „naciona-<br />

luri moZraobis” politikuri<br />

sabWos Tavmjdomaris moadgiles,<br />

zaza bibilaSvils:<br />

_ Cemi azriT, Seqmnilia Cixuri<br />

situacia. igive Tqveni partiis mxardamWerebis<br />

SefasebiT, „naciona-<br />

luri moZraoba” ver aqtiurobs<br />

saTanadod, rogorc unda aqtiur-<br />

obdes. Tumca, marTali giTxraT,<br />

me piradad veRarc ki vxedav, vin<br />

ra unda gaakeTos, rom es situa-<br />

cia realurad Seicvalos. Seqmnil<br />

situaciaSi vgulisxmob im saSinel<br />

kriminogenur viTarebas, romel-<br />

ic dRes qveyanaSia: dRe ar gadis,<br />

vinmes yeli rom ar gamoWran, ar<br />

Cacxrilon, ar daWran. Tan ukve<br />

sam-sams Wrian erTbaSad. is brZe-<br />

ni kaci ki isev isteriulad daaTrevs<br />

xeebs, fasebi garbis, qveyana-<br />

Si trialebs ekonomikuri stagnacia,<br />

mZvinvarebs korufcia, ubedureba,<br />

saSveli arsaidan araa. piradad<br />

TqvenTvis Tu aris damakmayofilebeli<br />

Tqveni partiis aq-<br />

tiuroba da Tqveni azriT, sad<br />

aris gamosavali?<br />

_ qveyanaSi arsebuli realobis<br />

Sefasebas, ra Tqma unda, veTanxmebi.<br />

gacilebiT mwvavec viqnebodi _<br />

araerTxel miTqvams, rom es xelisufleba<br />

im problemebs, romelic<br />

Cveni qveynis winaSe dgas, ver gamoasworebs.<br />

ver gamoasworebs er-<br />

Ti martivi mizezis gamo, is Tavad<br />

aris am qveynis problema, is Tavad<br />

aris mizezi yvela im problemisa,<br />

romelic dRes Cven winaSe dgas.<br />

amixseniT, rogor unda gamoasworos<br />

korufcia korumpirebulma<br />

Cinovnikma? kalaZe korufcias xom<br />

ver mospobs? korufciaa misi politikuri<br />

arsi.<br />

_ mas SeuZlia, konkretuli<br />

korumpirebuli piri moiSoros<br />

korufciasTan brZolis egidiT,<br />

rogorc iSorebda SevardnaZe ax-<br />

algazrdobaSi.<br />

_ ra Tqma unda, mas SeuZlia,<br />

cixeSi Caasmevinos viRac, vinc ai-<br />

Ro, magaliTad, 3 aTasi dolaris<br />

qrTami, magram Tavad aiRebs mraval<br />

milions, an sammilionian saxelmwifo<br />

Sesyidvas tenderis gareSe<br />

Caatarebs, an „gazpromTan”<br />

dadebs moRalatur xelSekrulebas.<br />

_ Tumca aqve isic unda vTqvaT,<br />

rom arc enm-m, misma aqtiurma<br />

wevrebma Tu aqtiurma mxardamW-<br />

erebma ar unda gamoidon Tavi im<br />

3 aTasi dolaris amRebi meqrTa-<br />

mis dasacavad. ucnauri iyo mis<br />

janmrTelobaze zrunva, mis<br />

gasaTavisufleblad brZola...<br />

_ absoluturad geTanxmebi, im<br />

adamians (vinme abesaZezea saubari),<br />

namdvilad araferi etyoboda janmrTelobaSeryeulis.<br />

rogorc Cans,<br />

es iyo Tavidan bolomde dadgmuli<br />

speqtakli. Tavi moisawyla da<br />

moimkvdaruna. is aris Cveulebrivi<br />

meqrTame. sxva saqmea, rom milionebisa<br />

da miliardebis qurdebi aTasebis<br />

qurdebs erCian, magram aqlemis<br />

qurdi da nemsis qurdi orive<br />

qurdia. vimeoreb, es xelisufleba<br />

Tavad aris yvela im problemis mizezi<br />

da saTave, romelic Cveni qveynis<br />

winaSe dgas. rogor unda daamarcxos<br />

am xelisuflebam kriminali,<br />

rodesac Tavad dgas kriminalze?<br />

dRes xuTiaTaslariani giraos<br />

sanacvlod gamouSves ori naZirala,<br />

SoTa isakaZe da irakli rexviaSvili,<br />

„ocnebisa” da kalaZis<br />

aqtivistebi da, rogorc CvenTvis<br />

cnobilia, kalaZis colisZmis axlo<br />

megobrebi, romlebic ramdenime<br />

dRis win Tavs daesxnen uwesieres<br />

axalgazrdas, Cveni moZraobis<br />

aqtiur wevrs, kavkasiolog aleko<br />

kvaxaZes. Tavidan mas mosTxoves<br />

600-lariani onlain sesxis aReba<br />

da Tanxis maTTvis gadacema. rodesac<br />

uari miiRes, pirdapir Zala-<br />

rezo SatakiSvili<br />

597 94 42 50<br />

294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com<br />

dobaze gadavidnen. aleko kvaxaZes<br />

saxeze etyoboda sisxlis kvali,<br />

dasiebuli iyo, mas eqspertizac<br />

Cautarda. Tavdasxmisas daxeuli<br />

qurTuki policiaSi nivTmtkicebad<br />

datova, roca aRmoCnda, rom<br />

mas meore qurTukic ki ar aqvs! es<br />

naZiralebi, romlebic Cvens qveyanas<br />

aTobiT da asobiT milions<br />

hparaven, Tavisnair, oRond ufro<br />

wvrilman kriminalebs giraos sanacvlod<br />

uSveben gareT da Tan<br />

dagvcinian, _ kriminali unda SevamciroTo.<br />

rogor unda Seamciron<br />

kriminali, roca TviTon arian<br />

kriminalebi? msgavsi magaliTi SemiZlia<br />

aTobiT da asobiT mogiyvanoT...<br />

_ amis magaliTia basianSi mo-<br />

mxdari SemTxveva, roca sami piris<br />

damWreli giraoTi gamouSves da<br />

mxolod meore instanciaSi Seu-<br />

fardes patimroba, isic imitom,<br />

rom iZulebuli gaxdnen, radgan<br />

magrad dadga am basianis patro-<br />

ni, atyda skandali, isterika...<br />

_ sanam iusticiis saxlis win<br />

mkvlelebis, kriminaluri samyaros<br />

revanSis Zegli dgas, Cvens qveyana-<br />

Si kriminali ar Semcirdeba da situacia<br />

mxolod uaresobisken wava.<br />

da es Zegli idgeba manamde, vidre<br />

am qveyanas marTavs korumpirebuli<br />

Zala, kuriozuli saxeliT „qarTuli<br />

ocneba”. ra momentSic ivaniSvili<br />

aRar iqneba am qveynis mmar-<br />

Tveli, ra momentSic xalxi _ kanonmorCili,<br />

mSromeli adamianebi gaimarjveben,<br />

pirveli, rasac vizamT,<br />

iqneba am Zeglis simboluri demontaJi<br />

da misi dadgma „ocnebis” politikur<br />

saflavze. is, rom es Zegli<br />

dgas iusticiis saxlis win, aris<br />

Seuracxyofa TiToeuli kanonmorCili<br />

adamianisa da simbolo imisa,<br />

rom dRes am qveyanas korumpirebuli<br />

moRalateebi da kriminalebi<br />

marTaven. rac Seexeba Cveni<br />

partiis aqtiurobas, cxadia, zedmetia<br />

raime kmayofilebaze saubari.<br />

Cven kmayofilebi maSin ki ar<br />

viqnebiT, „endiais” an „airais” kvlevebSi<br />

5, 10 an, Tundac, 20%-iT<br />

meti rom gveqneba. Cven kmayofilebi<br />

viqnebiT mxolod maSin, rodesac<br />

Cvens moqalaqeebs daubrundebaT<br />

awmyosa da momavlis rwmena da<br />

imedi, rac gamoricxulia ivaniSvilis<br />

reJimis pirobebSi. kmayofilebi<br />

viqnebiT mxolod maSin, rodesac<br />

Cveni qveynis kanonmorCili,<br />

mSromeli moqalaqeebi Tavs igrZnoben<br />

daculad kriminalisgan,<br />

romelic „qarTulma ocnebam” auSva.<br />

kmayofilebi viqnebiT mxolod<br />

maSin, rodesac is totaluri korufcia,<br />

romelic qveyanaSi dabrunda,<br />

dasruldeba. Sesabamisad,<br />

bunebrivia, kmayofilebi ar varT.<br />

magram Semdeg ismis kiTxva, _ ra<br />

unda gavakeToT imisTvis, rom es<br />

realoba Seicvalos? ar minda,<br />

Tavis marTlebad, an Semgueblobad<br />

CamiTvaloT, ase namdvilad araa,<br />

magram unda gavacnobieroT, rom<br />

umZimes omSi vimyofebiT, meore mxares<br />

realurad dgas ruseTi. mTeli<br />

es kriminalebic, meqrTameebic,<br />

zogi Segnebulad da zogic Seugneblad<br />

(90% mainc Seugneblad)<br />

akeTeben rusul, anu antiqarTul<br />

da antisaxelmwifoebriv saqmes.<br />

Cveni qveynis winaaRmdeg muSaobs<br />

`rac ufro cudad<br />

aris rigiTi<br />

qarTveli, miT<br />

ufro kargad<br />

arian ivaniSvili<br />

da kalaZe~<br />

uzarmazari sainformacio-propagandistuli<br />

manqana. am propagandistuli<br />

manqanis 90% qarTulenovania,<br />

magram es aris rusuli propaganda.<br />

rodesac amas vambobdiT<br />

igive badri patarkaciSvilis<br />

dros, 2009 wels, an 2011 wels, bevri<br />

iSmuSneboda, Tvalebs zemoT<br />

karklavda, nu kargi, ra, yvelgan<br />

ruseTi gelandebaT, ra dagemar-<br />

TaT da ratom ar uSvebT, rom es<br />

SeiZleba ruseTis gareSec xdebodeso.<br />

ra Tqma unda, vuSvebT,<br />

magram gamocdilebam ra dagvanaxa?<br />

ruseTi ereva safrangeTis, germaniis<br />

arCevnebSi, kataloniis, breqsitis<br />

referendumebSi, amerikis<br />

arCevnebSi. Cven varT saqarTvelo,<br />

romelsac ruseTi realurad Tavis<br />

teritoriad miiCnevs da aq ar Caereoda<br />

arCevnebSi? aba, bedukaZe vin<br />

iyo, romelic mere rusebma „Jurnalisturi<br />

saqmianobisTvis” daajildoes?<br />

an is cxra Tvis bavSvi,<br />

barbare rafalianci, TavisiT Caxta<br />

qvevrSi da daixura sarqveli?<br />

es Zalaa dRes xelisuflebaSi, romelmac<br />

es yvelaferi gaakeTa, ai,<br />

amiT movidnen da amiT agrZeleben<br />

marTvas sinamdvileSi! sul ramdenime<br />

dRis win mokles generali qu-<br />

TaTelaZe. laparakoben, rom wilebi<br />

iyo realuri mizezi. manamde mokles<br />

lomar liguriani, Cveni partiis<br />

Tavmjdomare svaneTSi, maSinac<br />

ambobdnen, rom mizezi TiTqos<br />

sayofacxovrebo konfliqti iyo.<br />

magram ra mniSvneloba aqvs amas?<br />

faqtia, qveyanaSi viRacas SeuZlia,<br />

daiqiravos mkvleli, miagzavnos da<br />

moklas adamiani. rogorc mokles<br />

erosi kiwmariSvili, rogorc axla<br />

mokles generali quTaTelaZe,<br />

rogorc manamde mokles maisuraZe<br />

an xarZiani...<br />

_ problema isaa, rom gaadvile-<br />

bulia mkvleloba, Torem mizezi<br />

yovelTvis gamoiZebneba, bolo-<br />

bolo, manana kobaxiZiseul „iqneb,<br />

deda Seagina”-mde mivalT.<br />

_ diax, mizezs da motivs mniSvneloba<br />

ar aqvs, mkvleloba aris<br />

mkvleloba!<br />

_ metic, miT ufro saxifaToa,<br />

rodesac mkvlelobebi umniSvnelo<br />

mizeziT xdeba. erTia, rode-<br />

sac mkvlelobebi politikuri mo-<br />

tiviT xdeba, ase safrTxis qveS<br />

arian politikosebi da meorea,<br />

rodesac mkvlelobebi xdeba wil-<br />

ebze, sayofacxovrebo konfli-<br />

qtebis Sedegad. ase yvelas eqneba<br />

wilebze dava, sayofacxovrebo<br />

konfliqtebi da safrTxe pirTa<br />

gacilebiT farTo wres emuqreba,<br />

mTeli sazogadoeba safrTxis qve-<br />

Saa.<br />

_ diax, am mizezebs ise iSvelieben,<br />

gegoneba, amarTlebdes, an xsnides<br />

am danaSaulebs. ara, batonebo,<br />

piriqiTaa, lomar ligurianis<br />

mkvlelobis Semdeg misi ojaxis<br />

wevrebma pirdapir Tqves, rom es<br />

aris qveyanaSi gamefebuli dausjelobis<br />

sindromis Sedegi. igive<br />

xdeboda 90-ian wlebSi. 90-iani wlebis<br />

dabruneba aris am yvelafris<br />

bolo. ubralod, erTaderTi imitomaa<br />

naklebsavaraudo 90-iani<br />

wlebis qaosamde misvla, rom dRes<br />

aris marTuli qaosi da am marTuli<br />

qaosiT piradadaa dainteresebuli<br />

ivaniSvili. ivaniSvilis reJimi<br />

dgas politikuri Zalebis fragmentaciaze,<br />

vinaidan gacilebiT martivad<br />

da iafad axerxebs am fragmentebis<br />

Sesyidvas. reJimi dgas am<br />

marTul kriminalur qaosze, sadac,<br />

rogorc junglebSi, yvela<br />

yvelas winaaRmdegaa. am yvelafris<br />

TavSi TviTon dgas, ganmartoebuli,<br />

daculi, fuliT uzrunvelyofili.<br />

mTeli saxelmwifo manqana<br />

muSaobs misi da misi ojaxis usafrTxoebasa<br />

da mSvid Zilze da ara<br />

Cveni, Cveulebrivi moqalaqeebis<br />

usafrTxoebasa da mSvid Zilze.<br />

rac ufro cudad aris TiToeuli<br />

rigiTi moqalaqe, miT ufro ukeT<br />

aris ivaniSvili da miT ufro kargad<br />

arian mis garSemo arsebuli<br />

klanebis wevrebi.<br />

_ da ra unda gakeTdes am situ-<br />

aciidan Tavis dasaRwevad?<br />

_ dameTanxmeT, rom mZime da<br />

uTanasworo brZolaSi varT, enm-m<br />

Seqmna unikaluri precedenti saqarTvelos<br />

istoriaSi, araTu ubralod<br />

daTmo xelisufleba mSvidobianad,<br />

arCevnebis gziT, aramed<br />

xelisufleba organizebulad<br />

gadaabara am quCidan mosul, antisaxelmwifoebriv<br />

Zalas.<br />

_ dRemde xazs usvamT, rom es<br />

gadabareba iyo pozitiuri, Tum-<br />

ca ukve Cndeba mosazreba, rom es<br />

iyo swored Secdoma, rom am Zal-<br />

isTvis cocxali TaviT ar unda<br />

daeTmoT xelisufleba. Rirda ki<br />

demokratiisTvis amxela msxverplis<br />

gaReba da saxelmwifos am sa-<br />

frTxeSi Cagdeba?<br />

_ axla am Temaze saubari nagvianevicaa<br />

da spekulaciacaa, ar gvinda<br />

amaze saubari. ubralod, vityvi,<br />

rom enm-m ara mxolod mSvidobianad<br />

daTmo xelisufleba, aramed<br />

organizebulad gadaabara am<br />

antisaxelmwifoebriv Zalas da aswavla<br />

mas, ra ekeTebina. aswavla<br />

xalxs, romelsac saxelmwifoebriv<br />

SegnebasTan axlos ar hqonda Cavlili<br />

da mTeli politikuri kariera<br />

gatarebuli hqonda qarTul<br />

saxelmwifosTan brZolaSi. realurad,<br />

2012 wels moxda antisaxelmwifoebrivi<br />

Zalebis, kriminaluri<br />

da korumpirebuli klanebis revan-<br />

Si. da es revanSi grZeldeba dRemde.<br />

mimdinareobs „nacionaluri<br />

moZraobis” srulmasStabiani represiebi,<br />

devna, Cveni yvela lideri<br />

an cixeSia, an politikur devnilobaSia,<br />

aTi aTasze meti wevri aris<br />

prokuraturaSi dakiTxuli da<br />

dRemdea devnis safrTxis qveS.<br />

garda amisa, bolo arCevnebSi Cven,<br />

faqtobrivad, ufulod gavediT<br />

arCevnebze. anu is Sedegi, romelic<br />

davdeT da romelic, bunebrivia,<br />

sulac ar gvaZlevs kmayofilebis<br />

safuZvels, dadebulia swored<br />

am pirobebSi, rodesac partia arsebobs<br />

represiebsa da totaluri<br />

ufulobis pirobebSi. Cveni amocana<br />

am mocemulobis Secvlaa. Cveni<br />

amocana ar aris Tematuri oponireba,<br />

imaze dava, ama Tu im kanonis<br />

ama Tu im muxlsa Tu qvemuxl-<br />

Si konkretulad ra ideba. es, ra<br />

Tqma unda, calke aRebuli mniS-<br />

22 N1 (222) 23.01-29.01.2018 w.

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