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ROYAL COMMISSION INTO INSTITUTIONAL
RESPONSES TO CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE
Public Hearing - Case Study 13
(Day ACT36)
Level 17, Governor Macquarie Tower
Farrer Place, Sydney
On Tuesday, 1 July 2014 at 10am
Before
The Presiding Member:
Commissioners:
Justice Jennifer Ann Coate
Mr Robert Atkinson AO APM
Mr Andrew Murray
Counsel Assisting:
Ms Gail Furness SC
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT3975
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THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Good morning, Ms Furness.
MS FURNESS: Good morning, your Honour and Commissioners.
I call Gregory Sutton.

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Q. And you were released from prison on 4 April 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr Sutton, you commenced your first teaching
appointment at a North Queensland primary school in January
1973?
A. Correct.
Q. In January 1976, you commenced teaching primary school
students at Marist Sacred Heart Primary School at Mosman;
is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Why were you transferred from the primary school in
North Queensland to the Mosman primary school, to your
understanding?
A. My understanding is that it was a normal transfer.
Q. When you say "normal transfer", what was the process
for transfer in the 1970s?
A. The process, as I understand it, was that the list of
appointments for the following year was sent out, say,
October, maybe November, the previous year, and you saw
where you were transferred to.
Q. No-one said anything to you about the reason for the
transfer?
A. No.
Q. Were you provided with or did you receive counselling
at any time in the mid-1970s?
A. No.
Q. In January 1978 you commenced teaching at the Marist
Brothers primary school at Eastwood?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you given any reason for why you were transferred
to that school?
A. No.
Q. Did the same process you gave evidence about before
apply there?
A. Correct.
Q. In January 1980 you began teaching at Marist College
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3977 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Pearce junior school in Canberra?
A. Correct.
Q. Were you given any reason for your transfer to that
school?
A. No, other than that Eastwood closed.
Q. Eastwood closed shortly before January 1980, did it?
A. The previous year.
Q. In January 1983 you began teaching at St Thomas More
Primary School at Ruse?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you given any reason for your transfer to that
school?
A. No.
Q. Was the same process you have given evidence about
applied in that case?
A. Yes.
Q. In January 1985 you began teaching at St Carthage's
Primary School in Lismore?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you given any reason for your transfer to that
school?
A. No.
Q. Was that, again, the same process as was followed
before?
A. I believe I was called on that one, phoned, to say
that I would be moving to --
Q. Who called you?
A. The provincial at the time.
Q. Who was that?
A. Alman Dwyer.
Q. Were you given any reason?
A. No.
Q. Did you consider it different from the usual process?
A. I think the process changed at about that time, from
the list, to people being contacted. I'm not sure on that.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3978 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. In March 1986 you signed an undertaking; is that
right?
A. March 19 --
Q. 1986.
A. What undertaking?
Q. An undertaking that, among other things, prohibited
you from having any physical contact with children and
having children in your classroom outside class hours?
A. I don't recall that, but if there is a signed -
I don't recall it.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. I do not recall.
Q. In November 1986 you participated in a two-month
personal renewal course at Marcellin Hall, Auckland,
New Zealand?
A. Correct.
Q. What was the purpose of that course?
A. As I remember, it was an adult intimacy course for
religious personnel.
Q. Why did you attend that course?
A. A number of brothers were attending that course, and
I joined them, because I thought it would be a good thing
to do.
Q. It was your decision to attend the course?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Why did you think it would be a good thing to do?
A. I think I was in need of adult renewal, I suppose.
I can't remember exactly, but --
Q. What did you learn from the course?
A. More appropriate adult intimacy.
Q. What does that mean?
A. How to relate to adults on an adult level. I was
relating on children levels.
Q. You left the teaching position in Lismore in April
1987; that's right?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3979 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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A. Correct.
Q. What were the circumstances of you leaving that
position?
A. From my point of view, I had contacted the provincial
at the time, Brother Alman, and asked to be removed from
teaching, because I had been inappropriate with students.
Q. Was that the first time you had told the provincial
that you had been inappropriate with students?
A. Correct.
Q. What happened after you had that discussion with the
provincial?
A. He took me out of school.
Q. And where did he place you?
A. For a period of time at Provincial House.
Q. Provincial House was in Drummoyne?
A. Correct.
Q. What happened at Provincial House?
A. I did general duties there, but then I secured
a position at the Catholic Theological Union - or was
offered a position.
Q. I am sorry, I missed that?
A. I was offered a position there, and I accepted it.
Q. At the Provincial House, were there any children
present?
A. No.
Q. It was the administrative headquarters, if I can put
it that way, for the provincial, was it?
A. Correct, for the province, yes.
Q. You applied for a position at the Catholic Theological
Union?
A. I accepted a position that was offered, yes.
Q. What does that union do, or what did it do in the
mid-1980s?
A. It taught theological - theological students. It was
a graduate college for theological students.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3980 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. When you say "graduate college", what were the ages of
the students?
A. I suppose around 20 to 60.
Q. There were not teenagers present at that college?
A. No, they were all finished school.
Q. After taking that position, how long were you with the
union?
A. Until 1989, some time in 1989. July 1989.
Q. What happened in July 1989?
A. The position became redundant.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I was just at - I was studying, actually. I was doing
some unit studies.
Q. Where were you studying?
A. Kuring-gai. Kuring-gai Chase College of Advanced
Education.
Q. What were you studying?
A. Financial management.
Q. Did you hold a paid position within the order after
that time?
A. While I was at the theological college, that was not
a paid position within the order, no.
Q. So you received your stipend and you did that work?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first receive any counselling or
therapeutic interventions?
A. I had an assessment in 1987 - around May, I suppose.
Q. Who initiated you attending that assessment?
A. I think Alman Dwyer, the provincial.
Q. What was the purpose of the assessment?
A. I'm not sure what the purpose was.
Q. You weren't told?
A. I just went to the assessment.
Q. Were you able to gather from the nature of the
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3981 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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assessment what the purpose was?
A. I would say it would be in relation to my offending,
but I was not aware of those factors in assessments at that
time.
Q. Who carried out the assessment?
A. Vincent Ryan.
Q. What was the result for you of the assessment?
A. The result was that I came back to Sydney and back to
Drummoyne.
Q. Where were you when you did the assessment?
A. Melbourne.
Q. And where were you living then?
A. Sydney - Drummoyne.
Q. So you went to Melbourne for the assessment?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And came back to Sydney?
A. Yes.
Q. So you continued your work either at the provincial
headquarters or at the union after that?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. Did you receive the results of the assessment?
A. No.
Q. Did you understand that the results went to the
provincial?
A. I presume they did.
Q. So did anything further happen between you and the
provincial --
A. The provincial suggested I go to a counsellor,
a psychologist.
Q. Did you do that?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Didn't want to.
Q. Was that the only assessment you had prior to
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3982 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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attending the Southdown assessment program?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. You left Australia on 18 August 1989; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to leaving Australia, you had a discussion with
Brother Holdsworth and a person the Royal Commission refers
to as [ADO]; is that right - [ADO]'s father?
A. Yes.
Q. You have the pseudonym list in front of you, I think.
A. Yes, I am just looking at that. Yes.
Q. Can you follow that?
A. Yes. And the answer is yes to your question.
Q. You had that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened at that meeting?
A. John Holdsworth and the father came in to my room in
the residence I was living in and said they wished to speak
with me and what it was about, and it was about their son
and that I had sexually abused him. At that point, I think
John Holdsworth left the room and left me with the father.
Q. What was said between you and the father?
A. He asked me if I did it. I said yes. I think he -
I think he said, "Well, we don't want to see you around our
place any more." I think he may have said that, or I might
be imagining that.
Q. Did you tell John Holdsworth about the discussion you
had with the father?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell Brother Alexis Turton about the
discussion you had with the father?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell anyone else in the order?
A. No, no.
Q. Understanding that you left Australia on 18 August,
can you tell us when that discussion occurred?
A. I would have thought a week before, but I can't put an
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3983 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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exact date on it.
I don't know.
It may have been two weeks before.
Q. But it was in the order of weeks before you left, not
months?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Alexis Turton was the provincial at the time?
A. I believe so, yes. Yes, he was.
Q. After your discussion with the father of [ADO], when
did you next have a discussion with Brother Turton?
A. Between [ADO] and the time I left, somewhere in that
time, yes.
Q. How did that discussion come about?
A. It came about because he was informing me that there
was a police inquiry or investigation in matters from
Campbelltown.
Q. Did you have a discussion with him on the telephone or
did you meet with him?
A. I met with him.
Q. Where did you meet with him?
A. Either his place or my place. I can't remember.
Q. His place being --
A. Provincial House.
Q. And your place being?
A. Mary Street. I think it was Provincial House.
Q. How did the meeting come about? Did he invite you to
attend to meet him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he tell you why he wanted to meet with you?
A. He said, "Come and see me", I presume.
Q. Was there anything out of the ordinary about that
request?
A. Not from a provincial, no.
Q. Was there anyone else present at the meeting?
A. No.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3984 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. So what did he say to you at the meeting?
A. Exactly what I just said - that he has been informed
that there was a police inquiry or investigation into my
activities at Campbelltown.
Q. Into your activities at Campbelltown?
A. My offending at Campbelltown.
Q. Was there any preamble to him telling you that? Did
he say anything first?
A. He said he had been contacted.
Q. By whom?
A. A principal of a school in Campbelltown.
Q. Did he tell you the name of the school?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you the name of the principal?
A. Yes.
Q. What name did he tell you?
A. Brother Philip Slattery.
Q. Did you know Brother Philip Slattery?
A. I know of him. I have never lived with him. I have
never worked with him.
Q. What did he tell you that the principal had told him?
A. That he was contacted - that the principal was
contacted by a policeman, that there was an inquiry by the
police.
Q. The inquiry being into?
A. My offending at Campbelltown.
Q. Did he tell you anything else as to what the principal
said to him?
A. No.
Q. Did you respond to that information?
A. No.
Q. Was that the first time you had heard such an
investigation was under way?
A. Correct.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3985 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. What did he then say to you?
A. I don't know whether it was then or subsequent, but he
suggested that I go to Southdown for treatment.
Q. When you say "then or subsequent" --
A. I mean, in a matter of days or - it may have been
then.
Q. So you are not sure whether his suggestion was made at
that meeting or at another meeting?
A. Correct.
Q. Leaving aside, then, when that was said, what was said
to you?
A. That I go to Southdown for treatment.
Q. Did you know what Southdown was?
A. No idea.
Q. Did he tell you?
A. He gave me a brochure.
Q. Was it, as you understood, a direction to go to
Southdown?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't consider you had any choice?
A. No.
Q. Was there any talk at that meeting of your meeting
with [ADO]'s father?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said about that?
A. That he had - no - yes, that he had met with
John Holdsworth and that [ADO]'s father had met with me.
Q. What else did he say about that?
A. I don't think he said anything else about that.
Q. Did he ask you anything about that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Did you volunteer anything?
A. No, I didn't offer anything, no.
Q. When in the conversation did the meeting with [ADO]'s
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3986 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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father come up?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did it come up before he told you about his discussion
with the principal?
A. I don't know. I can't recall that. It all happened
around the same time. They may have happened on the same
day - the same meeting. I don't know.
Q. So there are two meetings, and you are not now sure
which of the discussions you have given evidence about
occurred at which meeting; is that right?
A. He informed me of the Campbelltown and he informed me
of the meeting with John Holdsworth and [ADO]'s father.
Q. At the same meeting?
A. I don't know that. I didn't meet with him very often,
so it could have been just the one meeting.
Q. So you don't now know whether it was one or more than
one meeting?
A. I never knew whether - I - yes, you're right.
Q. But at one or two meetings --
A. Yes.
Q. -- between speaking with [ADO]'s father and going
overseas --
A. Yes.
Q. -- you met with him?
A. Yes.
Q. And at one or more meetings, he told you the matters
you have just given evidence about; is that right?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. Was the direction, as you understood it, to go to
Southdown given after or before he told you that
John Holdsworth had spoken to him?
A. That was in relation to [ADO].
Q. Yes.
A. After.
Q. So is the order, as you best understand it, that he
told you about the police investigation, told you to go to
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3987 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Southdown and then mentioned --
A. No, the other way around.
Q. So you tell me the order?
A. He told me the police investigation, John Holdsworth
and Southdown, in that order. I'm - yes, I would go with
that.
Q. Did he contact Southdown in your company?
A. No.
Q. Did he give you a time frame within which you would be
expected to go to Southdown?
A. I think he wanted me there for the first assessment
period.
Q. Did he tell you when the first assessment period was?
A. Yes, he must have, yes, because I had the airline
ticket to get there.
Q. Did he give you the airline ticket at that meeting?
A. No. I had to pick it up.
Q. So what did you understand from your discussion with
Brother Turton about when you would go to Southdown?
A. I understood that I was to go to Chicago, land there
and then go on to the assessment in Canada.
Q. That understanding was based on what he said to you?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't talk to anyone else about the arrangement?
A. No, no.
Q. Why did you understand you were going to Chicago?
A. Because that's where the brothers had a residence.
Q. Was there any purpose in you going to Chicago?
A. Because there would be no accommodation at the
assessment.
Q. Where was the assessment going to take place?
A. Canada, in Ontario, Toronto - north of Toronto.
Q. When were you provided with the ticket?
A. I picked it up, and it would be two or three days
before I left.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3988 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. Just going back to the timing for a moment, when do
you think that meeting occurred with Brother Turton?
A. Four days before I picked the ticket up - I mean four
days before I left, at least.
Q. When you left that meeting, was it your understanding
from Brother Turton that you would be leaving as soon as
within four days?
A. Yes.
Q. Was a reason given to you for why you were leaving
within four days?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask?
A. No.
Q. Did it seem sudden to you?
A. It sounded extremely sudden to me.
Q. Did you question it?
A. I didn't question it.
Q. You didn't question the timing of it?
A. I didn't question the timing of it.
Q. Did you question the reasons for why you were being
directed to go to Southdown?
A. For treatment; I knew that.
Q. This was the second treatment that you had received
from the Marist Brothers - or this would be the second
treatment?
A. No.
Q. There was more than the assessment you have referred
to earlier before Southdown?
A. Oh, okay, if the assessment was treatment, yes.
I didn't regard that as treatment. Sorry, yes, I had that
assessment in, whenever it was, 1987.
Q. You had the assessment in 1987 and then you were being
sent for an assessment at Southdown?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the Southdown facility, as you understood then -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3989 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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this is at the meeting with Brother Turton - involve
treatment?
A. No.
Q. It was just an assessment?
A. It was an assessment, yes.
Q. You said that you understood you were directed to go
there for treatment?
A. Yes, but I had to go for assessment first.
Q. Your expectation was that treatment would follow that
assessment?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Had you had any treatment at the instigation of the
Marist Brothers before going to Southdown?
A. No.
Q. And you had had the two assessments you have given
evidence about?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you have any further discussion with
Brother Turton, after he had directed you to go to
Southdown, before you left?
A. Only arrangements to meet me at the airport in
Chicago.
Q. So arrangements for someone to meet you at the airport
in Chicago?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. So you understood he put those arrangements in place?
A. I understood that, yes.
Q. You picked up the ticket yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. And boarded the plane?
A. And boarded the plane.
Q. How long were you in Chicago?
A. A week.
Q. And you lived with the brothers in Chicago?
A. Correct.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3990 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. Did you see anyone from Australia when you were in
Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that?
A. Alexis Turton.
Q. What were the circumstances of seeing him in Chicago?
A. The circumstances were, I suppose, he was making sure
that I actually got there.
Q. So he turned up at the brothers community in Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. How long after you had arrived?
A. Four or five days.
Q. You met with him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. I think he was basically asking me how the trip was
and when am I - that I would be going on to Southdown. We
didn't talk too much.
Q. Did he tell you the purpose for his visit to Chicago?
A. No.
Q. You said that you suppose that he was making sure that
you actually got there. What was it that he said or did
that allowed you to form that impression?
A. I think it was just the concern or care that he had
for the brothers at that time.
Q. Now, you met with him once while you were staying at
Chicago?
A. Before assessment, yes.
Q. How long was he at the brothers community in Chicago?
A. He didn't stay there. It was a full house, so he
couldn't stay there. He stayed somewhere else.
Q. Did he visit you only once at that location?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in Chicago?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3991 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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A. One week.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. One week.
Q. And then you went to Southdown?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you next see or speak to Brother Turton?
A. After the week of assessment, I came back to Chicago.
I don't think I saw him between then and when I went for
treatment, and that was a period of about three months -
two months.
Q. Trying as best we can to work out the timing, you left
on 18 August?
A. Yes.
Q. You were in Chicago for a week?
A. One week.
Q. You then went to Southdown for a week?
A. One week.
Q. So we're at the end of August by now?
A. Yes - September, actually.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. We're into September.
Q. And then where did you go after --
A. I came back to Chicago.
Q. For how long?
A. Two and a half months.
Q. So that's September, October and halfway through
November?
A. Correct.
Q. During those two and a half months, did you have any
contact with Brother Turton?
A. Not to my knowledge, no. No, I did not. I don't
think he turned up, and I don't think I got a phone call.
Q. When did you next hear from Brother Turton?
A. After my treatment at Southdown.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3992 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. So this was after mid-November?
A. This was after July the following year.
Q. So when did you hear from him?
A. After July 1990.
Q. Where were you living in July?
A. Chicago.
Q. So you lived in Chicago at the brothers community
after the assessment and treatment; is that right?
A. I lived in Chicago after the assessment until the time
for the treatment, and then after the treatment until the
time I left.
Q. And when did you leave?
A. 1992, May 1992.
Q. So that's mid-November 1989 until May 1992, you lived
in Chicago; is that right? You tell me. You finished the
treatment and you were back in Chicago in mid-July 1989?
A. If it was 1989, I had not left Australia. I was back
in Chicago 1990, mid-July.
Q. Were you working?
A. No, I was studying. I went - I signed up for study.
Q. Where did you study?
A. Loyola.
Q. Were you living in the brothers community?
A. I was.
Q. When did you next see or hear from Brother Turton?
A. He came over for a visit. I asked him for papers to
be dispensed from the order.
Q. When was that?
A. No, that was 1991. 1991. Mid-1991, I think.
Q. You received those papers?
A. Yes.
Q. And you ultimately received the dispensation?
A. Correct.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3993 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. Did you have any further discussions with
Brother Turton after you had received your dispensation?
A. Discussions, no. Communication, yes.
Q. What was the communication?
A. He made a phone call to say that a court had issued
a warrant for me.
Q. When did he make that phone call?
A. 1992, the beginning of 1992, somewhere around the
beginning of 1992. That was a phone call.
Q. Where were you when you received the phone call?
A. I was in St Louis when I received the phone call.
Q. What were you doing in St Louis?
A. I was at an internship. I was doing an internship
with an organisation down there.
Q. Are you aware how Brother Turton discovered your
whereabouts in order to telephone you in St Louis?
A. No, I'm not aware.
Q. What did he say to you when he rang me?
A. Exactly that - exactly that there was a warrant
issued.
Q. Did he indicate what court had issued the warrant
or --
A. Yes, Lismore court.
Q. Did he tell you what the warrant was for in respect of
offences?
A. Offending in Lismore.
Q. Did he tell you how he had that information?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask him?
A. No.
Q. What else did he tell you?
A. That was about it.
Q. Well, what was your response to him telling you that
there was a warrant that had been issued?
A. My response was that I phoned Brother Sean Sammon, who
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3994 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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was the provincial of New York Province, and asked him what
I should do.
Q. Did you ask Brother Turton what you should do?
A. I did, yes. I did.
Q. What did he say?
A. "Stay there and live your life."
Q. You remember that conversation?
A. I remember him saying that - saying something to that
effect, "Stay where you are and live your new life."
Q. Did he tell you why he was telling you about the issue
of a warrant?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask?
A. No.
Q. After you asked his advice and he gave it, was
anything more said?
A. No, not to my - I can't recall.
Q. So that was the end of the telephone conversation?
A. That was the end of the telephone - yes.
Q. So you rang the provincial of New York, did you say?
A. Correct.
Q. Was that a person you had had contact with before?
A. No.
Q. Why did you ring him?
A. Well, I thought he might advise me on what to do.
Q. What did you consider your options to be, prior to
ringing the provincial for New York?
A. To do as Alexis had said, and that was to stay and
live my life.
Q. That was one option?
A. That was one option.
Q. Any others?
A. He didn't give any, and I wasn't aware of others that
were required of me at that time.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3995 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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Q. Why did you ring the provincial of New York if
Brother Turton had given you advice?
A. To see if he gave the same advice.
Q. What advice did he give you?
A. The same advice.
Q. Did you seek advice from anyone else?
A. No.
Q. Did you seek legal advice?
A. No.
Q. Did you understand what your legal position was?
A. No.
Q. What did you do after that discussion with the
provincial of New York?
A. Finished my studies. I was out of the order at that
time.
Q. You remained living in - where?
A. When I finished my studies, I moved to St Louis.
Q. And then you were arrested on 15 August 1995; that's
right?
A. That's right.
Q. So prior to your arrest and after the discussion with
Brother Turton that you have given evidence about, did you
have any further discussions with him?
A. He sent me a letter to say that I should not be
teaching in schools, because he had heard that I was
involved with a school.
Q. Were you involved with a school?
A. I was.
Q. Where did you teach?
A. I wasn't teaching.
Q. What were you doing?
A. I was the administrative principal, non-teaching
principal, of a grade school.
Q. Of a?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3996 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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A. Grade school.
Q. Does that mean primary school?
A. It means primary plus the first two years of
secondary.
Q. Did you make any admissions to that school before you
took up that position?
A. No.
Q. Let's come back to the letter. What did you do when
you received the letter?
A. I replied saying that I was not teaching children, and
the only teaching I had done was teaching of adults at
a TAFE-type college.
Q. Had you applied for any jobs that involved teaching
children in the States?
A. No, no.
Q. After having received that letter and replied to it,
did you have any further contact with Brother Turton?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any contact with anyone from the order in
Australia after being told by Brother Turton about the
warrant and before being arrested?
A. No.
Q. When you were arrested, was that the first time you
understood that the police were actively seeking you out?
A. Correct.
Q. No-one had told you prior to that?
A. No.
Q. Did you continue with your position as an
administrative principal at that school after your arrest?
A. After my arrest?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
MS FURNESS: Thank you. I have nothing further.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Thank you, Ms Furness.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3997 G J SUTTON (Ms Furness)
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MS DOUGLAS-BAKER:

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Q. Do you recall saying to Ms [ADM] words to the effect,
"We have to be more careful. One of the teachers suspects
something's going on"?
A. I don't recall making that statement.
Q. Do you recall mentioning a Mr Readons or Mr Reardons?
A. I don't - I don't recall that.
Q. Do you recall saying anything to the effect that any
adult at St Thomas More suspected you in relation --
A. No.
Q. Who was the principal at St Thomas More Primary School
in 1984?
A. Brother Mark May.
Q. Did Brother Mark ever approach you to discuss with you
any issue about your conduct in relation to Ms [ADM]?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever approach you in relation to your conduct
in relation to Ms [ADQ]?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any discussion with Brother Mark at the
end of 1984, towards the end of your teaching year at the
school?
A. No.
Q. Did any teacher at St Thomas More Primary School ever
raise with you the question of inappropriate conduct with
students?
A. No.
Q. I have no further questions about your time at
St Thomas More. I would like to ask you some questions,
however, moving forward in time to the time of your
sentencing in 1996. Did you ever convey an apology to
Ms [ADM] or Ms [ADQ]?
A. I wrote each victim - yes, I wrote each victim an
apology letter.
Q. Did you send that apology letter to either victim?
A. I gave them to my lawyer.
Q. Your lawyer at that time was Mr Greg Walsh?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT3999 G J SUTTON (Ms Douglas-Baker)
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A. Correct.
Q. In those letters, or in either letter, did you ever
acknowledge your wrongdoing?
A. I did.
Q. Are you aware that neither Ms [ADM] nor Ms [ADQ]
received those letters?
A. I can't explain why not.
Q. But are you aware?
A. I am now, yes.
Q. How did you become aware that neither received the
letter?
A. You just said so.
Q. You weren't made aware some weeks ago by Mr Walsh?
A. Correct - yes, I was.
Q. I don't wish to ask you anything about the
conversation you had with Mr Walsh, but I will ask you
this: did you initiate the giving of an apology, through
Mr Walsh, at the Royal Commission some weeks ago?
I withdraw that. I will approach it a different way.
About two or three weeks ago, Mr Walsh, appearing on your
behalf, conveyed an apology to each of Ms [ADM] and
Ms [ADQ]. Are you aware of that?
A. I am aware of that.
Q. Who initiated the giving of that apology?
A. I had initiated by writing the letters. He conveyed
that apology himself, because the opportunity arose.
Q. So is the Commission to understand that, having
discovered that neither letter was received by Ms [ADM] or
Ms [ADQ], you sought to rectify the situation and have
Mr Walsh convey the apology?
A. He rectified the situation that the letters did not
reach the victims.
Q. Just to be clear, is it your evidence that it was
Mr Walsh's initiation to give that apology at the
Royal Commission two or three weeks ago?
A. Yes, and he informed me that he had done so, and
I approved of what he had done. That's what I would have
done, and continue to do.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4000 G J SUTTON (Ms Douglas-Baker)
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MS DOUGLAS-BAKER: Thank you. No further questions.

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Q. Was the meeting at Southdown the time when you asked
for a dispensation?
A. No.
Q. Did that come at a further meeting?
A. Yes, back in Chicago.
Q. After the conclusion of the residency at Southdown?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you remember the name of the person that conducted
the assessment in Chicago?
A. There wasn't one.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. There wasn't an assessment in Chicago.
Q. Do you remember seeing a psychologist prior to going
into Southdown?
A. Yes, that was at Southdown.
Q. Do you remember telling him why you thought you had
been sent to Southdown?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what you said?
A. I was referred by the order and, in my opinion,
I thought, because of my offending.
Q. Did you say anything to them about investigations
under way in Australia at the time?
A. I said that I was being investigated, yes.
MR KERNAGHAN: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.
Thank you, Commissioners.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you. Do you want to go last,
Mr Skinner?
MR SKINNER: Your Honour, I obviously am interested,
perhaps, in cross-examining this witness. However, this
evidence is entirely fresh to me. I have no instructions
about any of it. I would need a short adjournment, in any
case, to get some instructions before I could reasonably
cross-examine.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4002 G J SUTTON (Mr Kernaghan)
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THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes, understood. Mr Gray?
MR GRAY:
Your Honour, I'm in a similar position.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: All right. Perhaps we will take
the mid-morning break early, will we, Ms Furness?
MS FURNESS: Perhaps if I could just say a few more things
about today, which might assist. We have Brother Crowe,
who has begun but not completed his evidence.
The Royal Commission intends to hold a public hearing
most likely next year - certainly not this year - into the
current practices, procedures and policies in respect of
a number of orders and dioceses of the Catholic Church,
including the Marist Brothers. At that occasion, it is
proposed that the current provincial - if it is
Brother Crowe, it is Brother Crowe - will be called to give
evidence about those current matters which are --
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
systems issues?
More generally in relation to
MS FURNESS: Yes, which are, of course, of vital interest
to the Royal Commission. His statement for this case study
covers a lot of those matters, and I don't propose to take
him through any of that orally, because there will be
another and better opportunity to do that, as I say,
probably next year.
I anticipate, therefore, that I will not be
particularly long with Brother Crowe. It is my submission
that the evidence of Brother Crowe should be completed
today, and I would invite your Honour and Commissioners to
sit until that occurs. Having said that, for my part,
I won't be much longer.
There are further inquiries that the Royal Commission
is undertaking in respect of this case study, and it will
not be able to be completed today with the evidence of
Brother Crowe. There will need to be an adjournment to
a date to be fixed, and that date will depend upon the
inquiries that are being made in respect of this case
study.
I indicate all of that so as to say that we have
Mr Sutton and Brother Crowe, and it would be ideal to
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4003 G J SUTTON
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complete their evidence today, if that is achievable.
I would certainly invite your Honour and Commissioners to
sit on if that is necessary to complete their evidence.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes. Thank you.
MS FURNESS:
If that helps.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: It does. Thank you. So having
heard that, Mr Skinner, we can take an extended mid-morning
break to allow you to take some instructions, and you, too,
Mr Gray.
MR SKINNER:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Thank you, your Honour.
Are you comfortable with that?
MR SKINNER: Not entirely, but I will take it for the
moment, thank you, your Honour.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: So we will take the mid-morning
break now - it's 5 to 11 - and resume at 11.30. I will
hear from either or both of you at that time with respect
to what your instructions are.
MS FURNESS:
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
Thank you, your Honour.
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, I understand that Mr Skinner and
Mr Gray may have something to say.
MR SKINNER: I am happy to go first, because perhaps I am
at some fault in creating this situation, for which
I apologise. I had thought that my client could not be
present here and monitor proceedings remotely. I didn't
realise he was half an hour or so away. So he hasn't yet
been able to come in, and I haven't yet been able to talk
to him.
I don't want to hold up proceedings otherwise in the
Commission. If Mr Sutton is able to remain for perhaps
further questioning from me, I would ask to be excused
while the Commission, if that's what it wants to do, goes
on with further evidence and therefore no further time is
taken. After I see my client, while that is happening,
I can come back and explain my position then, and maybe no
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4004 G J SUTTON
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time will be lost at all.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: All right. Thank you, Mr Skinner.
So just to be clear, what you are suggesting is that you
have no objection to counsel assisting resuming with
Brother Crowe and you will absent yourself to --
MR SKINNER: No, not at all. I am asking for a confined
adjournment, confined to this witness only, for my
purposes.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes, and you will excuse yourself
from the Bar table to take instructions while we are
otherwise proceeding with Brother Crowe; is that what you
are --
MR SKINNER:
could happen.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
that course.
MS FURNESS:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
concerns?
Yes, with your leave, Commissioner, if that
Yes, all right, no difficulty with
Perhaps we might hear from Mr Gray.
But with respect to Mr Skinner, no
MS FURNESS: No, I have no difficulty with continuing with
Brother Crowe.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes. Mr Gray?
MR GRAY: Your Honour, as would be apparent, I have also
had no opportunity to speak to Brother Alexis, for the same
reason that Mr Skinner has just mentioned, so I am not in
a position either to cross-examine Mr Sutton or even,
really, yet to decide whether to cross-examine Mr Sutton.
As the Commission may know, we were only notified at
about 6 o'clock last night that Mr Sutton was going to be
a witness. There has been no statement provided or any
summary of his anticipated evidence, as the practice
guideline envisages. I'm not criticising but simply
observing that that's the case. Quite a bit of what
Mr Sutton has had to say this morning is literally brand
new, from our point of view.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4005 G J SUTTON
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So after Mr Skinner has spoken to Brother Alexis,
those instructing me, I dare say, would need to be speaking
to Brother Alexis as well. For practical purposes, we
would have no objection to the Commission resuming with
Brother Crowe. I, of course, won't be able to absent
myself while that is happening, but at least if we do that,
then we could perhaps at least get to the end of
Brother Crowe's evidence and then see where things stand
after that.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: All right. Let's do that.
MS FURNESS: Certainly. I might just indicate that
nothing that has been done is contrary to the practice
guideline.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Thank you, Ms Furness.
Mr Sutton, I am not sure how much of that now is clear
to you, but what Mr Skinner is indicating is that he wants
the opportunity to speak with his client, Brother Turton,
before he makes a decision about what, if any, questions he
has for you. And Mr Gray has given the same indication.
That being so, what I'm doing is asking you now to
just step out of the witness box. So you are not excused,
but step out of the witness box and we are going to resume
with Brother Crowe and give both Mr Skinner and Mr Gray the
opportunity to speak with Brother Alexis, and then recall
you. Is that clear for you?
THE WITNESS:
I understand.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you. I just ask you to step
out of the witness box now.

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your statement with you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you turn to paragraph 126, and perhaps that can be
up on the screen. You refer there to a question asked of
you as to whether there has been a practice whereby
brothers were moved from one school to another because of
complaints of child sexual abuse. You answered that based
on your knowledge and on your review of the minutes of the
Sydney Province; that's right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Just dealing, firstly, with your knowledge, over what
period of time did you have knowledge relevant to answering
this question?
A. I was involved in leadership, do you mean, or what?
Q. Well, you were overseas for some period of time?
A. That's correct.
Q. You were vice-provincial for a period of time?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you had various other positions which were set out
in your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. So I am asking you about the knowledge that you drew
upon - where or what period of time or what position did
you hold where you gained the knowledge to provide the
evidence set out in paragraph 126?
A. I think it would have been, then, since 1989, when
I became involved in administration and leadership, yes.
Q. So your knowledge is not prior to 1989 - is that
right - that you are referring to in that paragraph?
A. That's correct. That's correct.
Q. The review of the minutes of the Sydney Province
from - over what period of time?
A. That went from 1948 until to date.
Q. You say that the number of such cases seems to have
been very small. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you come to that view based on what you had read
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in the minutes?
A. In the minutes, there seems to be only one clear case
of somebody going from a school to a school.
Q. Following a complaint of child sexual abuse?
A. That's correct, yes, and that was in 1949. Yes. The
other one which is clear is the one regarding John Chute.
Q. Was the case of John Chute evident from your knowledge
of the minutes, or because of the work you have done for
this hearing today?
A. It was evident from the minutes, but the minute had
actually been discovered just before Christmas last
year - in November, I think it was, or December.
Q. From the information that you now have, having
prepared yourself to give evidence, do you consider that
the transfer of then Brother Sutton fits within
paragraph 126?
A. No, I don't, actually, no.
Q. So your evidence of "very small" is Brother Chute and
somebody in the 1940s?
A. Yes, and then there is some reference in one of the
interviews of Brother Charles Howard where he makes
a reference to something. That's about it. But there is
nothing in the minutes to do with that.
Q. That reference would be the third person; is that
right? So that makes up your very small number?
A. Yes, that's right. Yes, mmm-hmm.
Q. When you gave evidence yesterday, I asked you whether
your review of the minutes gave rise to any information or
thoughts relevant to the work that this Royal Commission is
doing, and you indicated that there was very little in the
minutes in circumstances where you would have expected
more; is that fair?
A. Well, that's right. Well, there could have been more,
but it was probably evidence that it wasn't discussed at
the council.
Q. So is it the case that a review of the minutes of the
Sydney Province is not the most reliable source of
information in respect of the transfer of brothers?
A. Well, it's not the complete, anyway.
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Q. Your knowledge, as you say, was based on 1989 and
following?
A. That's right.
Q. In paragraph 127 you talk about the 1992 protocol. Is
it the case that prior to that protocol, there was nothing
in writing in place in respect of the transfer of brothers
and the warranty referred to?
A. That's correct.
Q. Can you help us with why that was inserted in the 1992
protocol?
A. I just - I think it was the whole question of
transparency, accountability, maybe liability.
Q. Were you involved in the drafting of that protocol?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. If we could turn to paragraph 135, you refer there to
Brother Chute and that you are not aware of any steps that
were taken to monitor him or otherwise enforce the
canonical warning after 1969; do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. I take it that your awareness was following the review
of the minutes that you referred to earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. You refer to Brother Chute being withdrawn from
teaching at the end of 1993 and that thereafter he did not
work with children. Can you tell us what was done to
ensure that he did not work with children after that period
of time?
A. His two appointments that were made there - as far as
I am aware, he was appointed to the conference centre at
Dundas, which was for adult programs; and, secondly, the
involvement that he had at Mittagong was in what was then -
it doesn't exist now - called Farmhouse, which was
a program for young adults. It was a centre for young
adults. And then, later on, he retired from that and was
living in the residence. So it wasn't working with
children at any stage.
Q. Can I turn to the litigation that Marist Brothers was
involved with in respect of the two brothers that we have
been dealing with.
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4009 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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Q. Were you involved in instructing, on behalf of the
order, in that litigation?
A. The litigation side of it was in the hands of Catholic
Church Insurance, but I was certainly involved in some
discussions. Whether that amounts to instruction is
a different question.
Q. Who was responsible, within the order, for giving
instructions of a factual or otherwise nature to CCI?
A. Myself.
Q. Perhaps if we could have tab 46 on the screen. This
was a telephone conference between CCI and the Marist
Brothers, recorded as being on the 27th of a month that had
a Wednesday in it in 2008. Can you help us whether you
were present at or participated in that telephone
conference? Certainly there is reference to Brother Alexis
in it.
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Perhaps if we can scroll down a bit further. Just
scrolling back up again, were you involved in discussions
about whether or not what is referred to there as the
"Ellis point", should or shouldn't be taken?
A. I was - I am generally aware of discussions around the
inclusion of the Ellis point. But as to this particular
conference, I'm not sure.
Q. Leaving aside this particular conference, do you
recall now what instructions you gave or response you gave
to whether or not the Ellis point, as referred to here,
should or shouldn't be taken in the litigation?
A. I think it's obvious from other documents that are in
the tender bundles that my position on this was, I suppose
you could say, ambivalent. I was concerned that the
position in taking the Ellis point seemed to deny a duty of
care and whether it was appropriate to use it for an
educational institution. Having said that, we were
committed to being insured, and the obligations of the
insurer were in terms of using all the legal avenues
available to them in a court of law in terms of what was
appropriate and what was available to them.
Q. When you say "the obligations of the insurer", how did
you form the view that the insurer had the obligations that
you refer to there?
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A. My understanding was that the insurer, in terms of
working with its reinsurers, had to be able to say that
they were defending themselves in an appropriate way, in
a full way.
Q. I understand that's your understanding. My question
is how did you form that understanding?
A. I would have received a legal advice that that was so.
Q. When did you receive that legal advice?
A. I couldn't say that, but this all happened early in
2008.
Q. So is your recollection that that legal advice was
given to you in and around 2008, when this litigation was
proceeding, or more recently?
A. I certainly knew that it was the position being taken
by CCI to use that defence, yes.
Q. You can't tell me how you gathered that knowledge?
A. No, I can't.
Q. Perhaps if we can have tab 56 on the screen. This is
an email from Brother Michael Green to the provincial.
Were you the provincial at this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Brother Michael Green?
A. Brother Michael Green was one of the - what we call
provincial councillors, which corresponds in this situation
to a trustee.
Q. He sets out his view in respect of the litigation. Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Just turning to the second paragraph, he is expressing
the view that it is important for the order to have
"a consistent and morally defensible position" --
A. Yes.
Q. -- "which is continually put out in both fora". Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you understand what the "both fora" is talking
about? Is that in legal proceedings and where else?
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A. It would be in the public - the public arena.
Q. Perhaps if we can then scroll down. There is an email
from you to him, I think, which is the beginning of that
string. In the paragraph that is on the screen, "Regarding
whether Kostka was an agent", do you see the third sentence
says:
We accept our moral liability by
encouraging people to go through the
Towards Healing process and we will reach
mediated settlements as well but not with
punitive or exemplary damages for
negligence.
That was the view that you held in 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a view you still hold?
A. I'm not a lawyer, so I really am not aware of the full
implications of the expression "punitive or exemplary
damages for negligence", but certainly the view that we
will reach mediated settlements has always been my view.
Q. Was your view in 2008 that those who wished to make
a complaint against a brother in respect of child sexual
abuse should be channelled towards the Towards Healing
process?
A. Not necessarily, no. As I said in that sentence
there, the idea of mediated settlements was the one that we
eventually did use and have used in many circumstances.
Q. By "mediated settlements", you mean a settlement or
negotiations that were entered into after proceedings may
have been initiated in the courts by one or more victims?
A. That's one process, but there are some other processes
that have been used, not in - maybe in the Sutton cases;
I'm not sure - where lawyers simply contact us on behalf of
clients, without necessarily registering them with the
Supreme Court.
Q. You instruct your lawyers on those occasions to enter
into meaningful dialogue about what they are seeking?
A. Yes. We would always instruct our lawyers, if the
matter comes to us from a lawyer, and then it would be
determined whether there is insurance cover and then the
whole question as to who takes the lead in terms of the
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negotiations.
Q. When you say "who takes the lead", either the CCI
lawyers or the brothers' lawyers?
A. Yes, well, in general, the CCI arrangement, or the
insurer's arrangement, is that in order to draw on the
insurance cover, they are the ones to take the lead in the
negotiations.
Q. Perhaps if we can have tab 227 on the screen. This is
a letter from Monahan + Rowell in June 2009 to CCI. Do you
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. You understood that Monahan + Rowell acted for CCI?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen this document before?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that as part of preparing to give evidence today?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can just scroll up, there is reference in
paragraph 4 to the lawyers for the insurers having
"significant evidence to the effect" - and the effect is
set out in paragraph 3. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Effectively, what they are saying is that three prior
provincials had sufficient relevant knowledge that
Brother Chute was behaving in a sexually inappropriate way
with young boys and failed to act decisively to address the
risk of that occurring again; is that how you read that?
A. That is how I read it.
Q. Then there is reference to the evidence being from
Brother Chute himself. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can scroll over to the next page, the insurer's
lawyers were advising the insurer, in paragraph 9, that
they had major concerns about relying on the evidence of
Brother Chute to prove prior knowledge. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was prior knowledge a relevant issue at this time,
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Brother Crowe?
A. This is a letter from the lawyers of the insurance
company, and so, for them, the prior knowledge would have
meant that we would lose or compromise our indemnity with
respect to Brother Chute and to ourselves as the ones who
had taken out the insurance.
Q. So the insurance arrangement you had with CCI was
that, in general terms, they would indemnify you in respect
of any claim unless you had prior knowledge of the
propensity of the accused; is that right?
A. Unless the leadership group did, yes.
Q. And so in relation to Brother Chute, it was a real
issue as to whether or not the leadership group did have
that prior knowledge --
A. Yes.
Q. -- so as to mean that the Marist Brothers themselves
would have to pay for any claims, as opposed to the
insurer?
A. That's right.
Q. And that was a live issue in relation to Chute?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it a live issue in relation to Sutton?
A. I believe so at one stage, yes.
Q. If we come down to paragraph 10, there is reference
there to the advice from the solicitors to CCI regarding
their prospects of success, in terms of relying on
Brother Chute, as a lot less than 50/50. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then noting that the Marist Brothers had proposed
that the indemnity issue be resolved between the Marist
Brothers and CCI on a 50/50 basis?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you involved in considering and ultimately
putting forward the 50/50 basis settlement with CCI?
A. I accepted the advice of my lawyer on that.
Q. Is it the case that by putting forward that proposal
and accepting that advice, you formed the view that the
Marist Brothers did have prior knowledge - that is, the
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relevant executive team did have prior knowledge - to some
extent in respect of each of Sutton and Chute?
A. I did not agree on the complete list of prior
knowledge, which we looked at before in number 4. I knew
that in 1962 there had been a notification of the principal
of a school, so I knew that at that level there had been
prior knowledge. I also knew that there were obviously
some questions around the whole issue of prior knowledge,
but no facts, in terms of the circumstances as we read back
there in number 4.
Q. When you say "no facts", do you mean no written
document which stated it unequivocally?
A. All that we had was the testimony of Brother Kostka
Chute, and if you read the statement, for example, of
Brother Charles Howard with respect to the same events, it
doesn't corroborate.
Q. Nevertheless, you were sufficiently of the view that
the knowledge that the leadership of the order had was
sufficient to have the Marist Brothers agree to pay half of
any claims that were made against it?
A. Yes, yes. It's partly because, also, we have a good
relationship with Catholic Church Insurance, and so this
seemed to be a fair thing to do.
Q. Fair on the basis of the prior knowledge of the
leadership?
A. Fair and questions around it, and the exposure that
CCI had, the same as ourselves.
Q. I don't understand that answer. "Fair and questions
around it" - what does that mean?
A. The questions that you are raising about what was the
real status of prior knowledge, and we also had the same
questions, so that's what I meant by "questions around it".
Q. The questions being that there was sufficient material
to satisfy you that there was sufficient prior knowledge to
warrant putting your hands in your pocket rather than
relying on the insurer; is that what you are saying?
A. No, I'm not saying that in terms of sufficient prior
knowledge. I'm just sort of saying there were questions.
Q. The questions were the extent of the prior knowledge;
is that right?
A. Certainly.
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Q. Any other questions, other than about the extent of
the prior knowledge?
A. For example, in the Penshurst cases, Brother Chute
said that he had informed Brother Charles Howard with
respect to something. It's not clear what the "something"
was, and it is certainly not clear whether he made any
admissions other than what he had said in some other cases
about hugging. So there is no determination there of
whether what was being disclosed at the time was a matter
of sexual assault.
Q. That example you have just given me is an example of
a question about the extent of prior knowledge, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. There is a document entitled "Marist Brothers Claims
Data", which was served on all the relevant parties last
week. Do you have a copy of that with you?
A. Yes.
MS FURNESS: Your Honour and Commissioners might recall
that there were some questions asked about this document
yesterday.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Yes.
MS FURNESS: Q. Do you understand, Brother Crowe, that
the data that is contained in these five or so pages were
provided by the Marist Brothers and CCI in relation to
claims for compensation?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you accept the accuracy of the material in
these five or so pages?
A. Yes.
MS FURNESS:
I tender that document.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Exhibit 13-38.
EXHIBIT #13-38 DOCUMENT TITLED "MARIST BROTHERS CLAIMS
DATA"
MS FURNESS: Q. The document relates only to claims of
child sexual abuse made against Brother Chute and former
Brother Sutton up to 6 September 2013; do you understand
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that?
A. Yes, I'm - 6 September 2013? I'm not sure about that
figure, whether it has gone on beyond that and whether it's
right up to date. I'm not sure.
Q. Well, it is up to the date of the summons, isn't it?
A. At least that.
Q. It was produced on 6 September, so there couldn't have
been produced, on 6 September, data relevant to further
matters, could there, after that date?
A. Was this produced on 6 September?
Q. I withdraw that. I am told that it has been updated.
You see in paragraph 2 it refers to 6 September, but I am
now informed that it has been updated - updated to quite
recently.
A. That's right.
Q. Just turning over to table 1, there is reference to
there being 48 complainants who had made claims in respect
of Chute. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Of the 48, 38 received a financial payment?
A. Yes.
Q. Two of those completed Towards Healing?
A. Yes.
Q. The average Towards Healing payment was $35,000?
A. Yes.
Q. And 35 received the benefit of either an out-of-court
settlement or a mediated settlement?
A. Yes.
Q. The average payments for those was just over $190,000;
do you see that?
A. The figure that I have is 178.
Q. That's the average payment.
A. Oh, sorry.
Q. If you look at the last column --
A. Yes, I see that now, yes.
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Q. -- the average out-of-court settlement was just over
$190,000?
A. Yes.
Q. The total payments in respect of Chute were over
$6.8 million?
A. Yes.
Q. In relation to Sutton, there were 21 complainants?
A. Yes.
Q. Eighteen of whom received a financial payment?
A. Yes.
Q. One person went through Towards Healing --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and received $25,000?
A. Yes.
Q. And 17 received an out-of-court settlement or
mediation, with the average being just over $105,000?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can turn to table 2, we can see from table 2
that 40 of the 48 claims made in respect of Chute concerned
his time at Marist College in Canberra; do you accept that?
A. Yes.
Q. If we look at the first two names on table 2, there is
reference to [AAB] and [AAJ]; do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. No reference to any financial support, compensation;
do you see that?
A. That's right.
Q. That is also the case in relation to [ACB] and [LAF].
Can you assist us with the circumstances in which they
complained and didn't receive any financial support?
A. My understanding is that where there is nothing
indicated there, the matters are still in progress.
Q. So they are current but unresolved claims?
A. Yes.
Q. So that's in respect of each of the ones I referred
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you to?
A. That's my understanding.
Q. Also on the second page, there is reference to two
others, [LAI] and [AAY]. So your understanding is that
where there is a name or pseudonym of a victim and no
money, it is a claim that has yet to be resolved?
A. I think that in at least one of those, there was no
payment made. There was some - there was an allegation,
but it wasn't sustained or something like that.
Q. So the order or its insurer wasn't satisfied --
A. That's correct, I think on one of those.
Q. If we could go back to that first page, that is, the
page preceding this one, do you see there is a reference to
[ADD] it says "Yes (3 Brothers and 1 lay teacher)"; do you
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. How are we to read that?
A. [ADD]? [ADD] is not on this --
Q. Is not on your pseudonym list?
A. No.
Q. So is it the case that you can't help us with [ADD]?
A. There's no name there. On the pseudonym list which
I have, there is no [ADD].
Q. So you can't assist us with that. What about [ACN]?
A. Yes, I can see that.
Q. How should we read the reference to "(2 Brothers and
1 lay teacher)" in that last column?
A. That the victim was assaulted by two brothers and one
lay teacher.
Q. The compensation, or the total payment, of just over
$26,500 was in respect of each of those or all of those?
A. Each of them.
Q. So $26,000-odd for each assault?
A. Yes.
Q. So we multiply that by three?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4019 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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Q. It is likely to be the same in respect of [ADD] and
[LAE], is it?
A. Yes.
Q. That we double the payment?
A. Yes. Well, in the case of [ADD], it's four times it,
isn't it?
Q. It is. You are right. It is double in relation to
[LAE]. Can you help us with whether the total payments in
table 1 take that into account?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. So it is not a straight question of addition; there
needs to be some multiplication in relation to those three?
A. In terms of the compensation payouts for Chute, it
would simply be an addition of that "Compensation" column.
Q. Legal expenses or costs were paid by the order in
respect of these matters in which the order engaged
lawyers; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, isn't it, in respect of Brother Chute,
that Carroll & O'Dea's professional costs and disbursements
amounted to $126,521?
A. Yes.
Q. And in respect of Brother Sutton, the amount of
Carroll & O'Dea's professional costs and disbursements was
nearly $78 ,000?
A. I believe so.
Q. In respect of the Marist College litigation, which is
litigation that involved both Brother Sutton and
Brother Chute, the legal fees were $238,728?
A. I'm not sure of what you are asking in the very last
one, please. I'm just looking for my notes on that.
Q. The reference I have is a separate reference to
Brothers Chute and Sutton, which I have taken you through.
A. Yes.
Q. And a third reference to the Marist College
litigation. Do you understand what that means?
A. Oh, that would be in relation to the matters before
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4020 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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the Supreme Court in Canberra, yes.
Q. There were separate professional costs and
disbursements in respect of those?
A. Yes.
Q. That amounted to $238,700-odd?
A. Yes.
I do understand that.
Q. Do you also understand that Catholic Church Insurance
also had legal costs which it had to pay in respect of its
role in the proceedings?
A. Yes.
Q. In respect of Brother Chute, CCI paid some
$1.361 million in legal fees?
A. I am not aware of those.
Q. Are you aware of the payment in respect of CCI to its
lawyers concerning the claims against Sutton as being
nearly $251,000?
A. I was not aware.
Q. In terms of the approach that the order is taking to
litigation in respect of each of these men that has not yet
been resolved, has there been any change in the approach
taken by the order over the last six months?
A. In regard to matters prior to 1970, when insurance -
when we were insured - prior to 1970, or maybe it's late
1969, we were insured. For matters prior to that, we do
not take, for example, the Ellis defence, and so we do
allow for the trustees to be named in a legal suit.
Q. You mean named and you don't take issue with them
being named; do you understand what I'm saying?
A. Yes.
Q. That you don't take issue that the trustees are
a proper defendant in respect of claims concerning conduct
prior to 1970; is that how I understand your answer?
A. We don't take issue with it, that's right.
Q. By reference to "matters prior to 1970", do you mean
when the conduct occurred prior to 1970?
A. Yes.
Q. So where the conduct occurred post 1970, or post 1969,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4021 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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whenever you were insured, all legal avenues available to
you are taken in respect of defending those claims in
a formal process; is that right?
A. Yes, but we have had continuing discussions with
Catholic Church Insurance in terms of particular matters.
My understanding is that they are also re-examining, in the
light of the discussions at the Royal Commission and, in
particular, the case study dealing with the Ellis matter,
and my understanding is that it is on a case-by-case basis
that there is a consideration given to what defence is
appropriate. As I said before, we have always taken the
position that we wanted the matters settled, and settled
quickly and justly, and so - yes.
Q. When you say "settled justly", what do you mean?
A. My understanding is that in the mediation processes,
the settlements, the mediation processes, exactly the same
criteria for determining damages would be used as if they
were in a court of law.
Q. With the exception of punitive damages?
A. Yes, with the exception.
Q. Why has a decision been made not to use, as you say,
exactly the same criteria for determining damages, by not
referring to punitive or exemplary damages?
A. The determination was simply in terms of making the -
handling the mediations in an appropriate way that was - in
the way that we were used to dealing with claims that came
against us.
Q. By which I take it you mean that any loss of income
would be compensated, if it was attributable --
A. There is a calculation made of that, yes.
Q. So your understanding is that the mediations are
conducted in a way that common law claims are generally
conducted?
A. Yes.
Q. However, the Towards Healing matters are conducted
differently?
A. Oh, very much so, because the nature of the process,
if I could use that word for a Towards Healing process, is
that the conversation, the dialogue, that is there is
around the needs of the victim, so there is a dialogue
around that - what would be a - what does the victim need
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4022 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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at this moment to promote healing.
Q. If a complainant elected to go through the Towards
Healing process and received a payment similar to that
usually provided in a Towards Healing process --
A. Yes.
Q. -- some $25,000 or $30,000, are they advised or spoken
to in respect of any other claims they may make?
A. There have been a number of cases where people have
come back and indicated ongoing needs, and we have
addressed those, and we will continue to do that.
Q. Are Towards Healing complainants required to sign any
release indicating that, on receipt of the moneys, they
won't take any legal action?
A. Yes, they do sign a deed of release. But the deed of
release is - in a sense, it is a way for them also to have
some closure on the event, so that they have a sense that
the process is completed. But there is always an
understanding - and it's in the Towards Healing
documentation itself there - that if people want to come
back for whatever reason, they can, especially if they feel
that there is something that has been incorrect in the
process, as we saw in the previous case study.
Q. But in relation to "come back", you mean come back in
a Towards Healing context?
A. Yes.
Q. But a person who goes through Towards Healing and
signs the deed is prevented by that deed from taking civil
action against the church; that's right, as you understand
it?
A. I'm not sure on that.
Q. What do you understand the deed of release to mean?
A. That the matter is settled - yes, sorry, I can - I'm
just going through in my own mind now, some of those
statements --
Q. Take your time, Brother Crowe. These are complex
issues.
A. Yes, yes. The statement on a deed of release - yes,
there is a release in that, where it says there that they
release us from any further legal obligations in respect of
this matter. That is correct, so that's there. But - I'm
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4023 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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just trying to think of any case in which one of the
Towards Healing people have actually come back and - maybe
they have at some stage. I just can't think for the moment
of a case, nothing to do with the Chute or Sutton ones, but
any others there, yes.
Q. Has the leadership group of the order revisited the
question of whether deeds of release should be sought in
Towards Healing matters?
A. No, not the trustees themselves. Our advisory group
is starting to look at a lot of those issues. We have an
advisory group, as I have mentioned in some of the papers,
dealing with professional standards matters, and we
certainly are continuing to look at and to learn from our
experience. As I said, the argument has always been, in
terms of the duty - sorry, the deed of release, it was
simply a way of saying to people, "Look, it's over; it's
finished", from their side, that they have a sense of
closure.
Q. So does the order have a sense of closure, doesn't it,
brother? The order won't then be faced with a civil claim
where they would be more likely to get well over $100,000,
closer to $200,000, than the $25,000 or the $30,000 under
Towards Healing; isn't that right?
A. Yes, as I said there. But we are still, in all these
cases, open to the needs of people and people coming back,
making their current needs known.
Q. The needs under Towards Healing don't extend to any
loss of earnings that might have been suffered and --
A. No, there is no calculation like that.
Q. The needs are primarily of a counselling nature; is
that right?
A. Well, that's fundamental. But then the - no, the
question is put far more broadly than that, yes, in terms
of --
Q. Could include accommodation, training, that sort of
thing?
A. That's right, that's right.
Q. Are you aware that the Archdiocese of Sydney, for
example, stopped using deeds of release in Towards Healing
matters some years ago?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4024 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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Q. When did you become aware of that?
A. Probably when I first came back into the country;
that's about 2008. In that same time, I had just arrived
back, and it was all new to me, the whole thing. So there
was a very sharp learning process going on, and through
discussions with my lawyer, or the lawyers, or particularly
one lawyer, I became aware of that.
Q. That hasn't caused your order to cease to use deeds of
release?
A. No.
Q. No?
A. No.
Q. Has a decision been made to continue to use deeds, or
is it just a matter that has been left as it is?
A. Really it has just been left as it is.
Q. So there hasn't been some sort of discussion and
decision made to maintain the use of deeds?
A. Not at a group level, other than sometimes in
a discussion between myself and the lawyer. I was aware
that there have been some other groups with a different
practice.
Q. You will no doubt be aware, brother, that other
entities within the broad Catholic Church umbrella have
publicly invited those dissatisfied with the payment or
process to come back and it will be revisited; you are
aware of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Christian Brothers is one example?
A. Yes.
Q. Has your order given consideration to that?
A. Very much so.
Q. With what result?
A. We are always open, as we have been, to people coming
back to us who are dissatisfied, and certainly if they
believe that any - well, either in the Towards Healing
process or in the civil litigation process, if they feel
that the amount was inadequate, unfair or that the
proceedings were at fault.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4025 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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Q. Do you have a process in place to deal with people who
come back in those circumstances?
A. That is developing. That is developing. At the
moment, it simply means that they would register their
needs and their demands with our Professional Standards
Office and that they would be dealt with within the
capacity, then, of the office to - in the same way that we
deal with other allegations, new allegations and things
that come through. But we don't have an independent
process at the moment. We are aware of all kinds of
schemes that are being examined at the moment through the -
in the church processes, at the moment, the National
Committee for Professional Standards. And there is a green
paper out at the moment on another body to be found - to be
established, which will help us to determine the right
process for doing this.
Q. Is that a body within or associated with the Catholic
Church - and I use that term broadly - or is it more
specific to your order?
A. No, I'm talking about something within the Catholic
Church or sort of sponsored by the Catholic Church. We are
not - as I said, we haven't set up an independent committee
for making judgments on these matters.
Q. You are aware that in Melbourne, with what is called
the Melbourne Response, there is a different approach?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with that?
A. Yes - well, generally. I'm familiar generally with
it, yes.
Q. Where there is a person who is paid by the archdiocese
to carry out assessments?
A. Yes.
Q. And somebody else to carry out determinations in terms
of amounts of money?
A. Yes.
Q. And that person is not an employee of or part of the
Catholic Church; they are generally from an independent
Bar. Are you aware of that?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4026 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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Q. Have you given any thought to that sort of structure?
A. The difficulty with the Melbourne Response up until
now is that it has been capped, rather than with that
particular process. Also, I am not aware of the
efficiencies of it in terms of the amount of cases to be
heard and things like that. But in terms of having
independent oversight, there is a big value to it,
obviously, in terms of transparency and ease of
communication for victims.
Q. You refer to the cap, and there is publicly known an
amount beyond which payment won't be made in the Melbourne
Response?
A. I believe it is under review.
Q. Yes. Yes, about $70,000 or thereabouts?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, isn't it, within the Marist Brothers,
that there is effectively a ceiling beyond which it would
be unusual for the order to go in respect of Towards
Healing payments?
A. Yes, that would be true.
Q. What is that ceiling?
A. No, we don't have a - I mean, there is no set number,
but just looking at the numbers, that would be so. It
looks to be, as you said there, around about $25,000 -
somewhere between $25,000 and $40,000.
Q. So that's the general amount that you get; not many
people get more than that?
A. In the Towards Healing, that would be so.
Q. Brother, the Royal Commission is very interested in
the current practices, policies and procedures of your
order in respect of complaint handling and matters of the
like?
A. Yes.
Q. But you would, I think, understand from what I said
earlier that that will be the subject of a separate
hearing, most likely next year?
A. I did hear that.
Q. We will certainly be inviting you - perhaps with the
aid of a summons, but we will certainly be inviting you,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4027 J J CROWE (Ms Furness)
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brother, to come back, and we will deal with all of the
issues in respect of current practices and procedures that
you have helpfully set out in your statement on that
occasion.
A. Yes, I do understand that.
Q. Just before I finish, you referred to a green paper.
Do you have a copy of that?
A. I do not have it with me here.
MS FURNESS: I would ask if those acting for the order or,
indeed, the Truth, Justice and Healing Council might
provide the Royal Commission with a copy of that paper?
MR GRAY: We can certainly do that, your Honour. I don't
know that we can do it right now, but --
MS FURNESS: No, it is not necessary to do it now, but --
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
In due course.
MS FURNESS: Yes. Thank you. They are my questions.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
MS DOUGLAS-BAKER:
MR KERNAGHAN:
No.
Thank you.

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around the question of why Kostka Chute was able to offend
for such a long period of time. Were you in the hearing
room at that time?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. I would like to ask you the same question, and
I preface it by saying that, as the current provincial and
a director of the trustee that runs the school, no doubt
you would have reflected on this question: why was Kostka
Chute able to offend against so many children in Marist
Brothers schools over a 31-year period?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give us your reflections on that?
A. The man was obviously a master of secrecy in terms of
his activities. There was a - the biggest reason - I would
agree with Brother Turton on this, that the biggest reason
would have been the level of trust, which is normal between
brothers, and that unless there was a particular reason for
being suspicious, it wouldn't be the normal attitude that
one brother would have towards another brother. So there
is a question there of dishonesty on his side in terms of
not being clear about his own difficulties.
My understanding is that when he made disclosures, and
we have seen some of what he - in some of the other
documents there, that he would use the euphemism of saying,
"I was involved in some hugging", and he would even
disclose this in terms of saying, "I need some help.
I need some help", or, "I need to deal with this." But, as
has been obvious in terms of the whole of the
Royal Commission, the euphemisms don't convey the full
meaning of sexual assault, and I don't believe that he
believed that he was involved in sexual assault. But it
hasn't helped in terms of his own disclosures.
In other words, he kept slipping underneath the radar.
As I said, the radar wasn't sort of out to find people.
That wasn't the situation. But he was able to remain in
positions without being challenged. And, you know, when
you go right back there to the 1950s, 1960s, some of those
early complaints from parents, yes, they weren't very
effectively dealt with at all - disastrous.
Q. Brother Crowe, thank you for that. That's really
helpful. Can I just add to that by saying that the
evidence appears to be that Kostka Chute committed offences
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4029 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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in public, or in the view of other people, sometimes in the
classroom in front of other children, and that some of his
offences involved taking children to closed places, his
office. It appears from the answers of Brother Turton that
despite many opportunities, no brothers actually conveyed
any concern about Kostka Chute over all of those years.
Can you give any explanation as to why that might have been
the case?
A. Obviously there has been a fair degree of ignorance,
and this has been a systemic failure in terms of not having
some of these child-protective measures in place, not
having the avenues for children to register their
discomfort or not feeling safe to do that or maybe not
feeling confident to do that. That's one side of it.
In terms of the observations of others, I note that in
one of the matters in the tender bundles there, not just
the brothers but a whole range of lay teachers were asked,
"What did you know?", and they all said the same thing,
apart from one woman, I think, in Canberra, saying she felt
he was a creep, or something like that. But the others all
said they had no knowledge or no particular reason for
questioning.
It's quite possible that somebody said to Kostka at
some stage, you know, "You've got too many kids around your
office." I believe that that sort of thing was said to
him.
Q. Do you think it's also possible that in the period -
and it was a long period - that Kostka Chute was actively
assaulting children, there was a reluctance on the part of
other brothers to inform on him?
A. I couldn't answer that, really. It's possible.
Q. Just looking at the matters that took place in Marist
College Canberra, do you agree that the document tendered
shows that an enormous number of offences took place at
that school, with Kostka Chute, Sutton and others which are
not the subject of this inquiry; would you agree with that?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Has Marist Brothers looked at the situation that
happened in Marist College Canberra with a view to
identifying factors that were present in the environment
there which made that happen, or which enabled that to
happen?
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A. I think there are two sides to the answer to that
question. The first question is whether the school itself
has done that, because they are the ones who have to
provide, today, for the safeguarding of children in the
school. And the school has done that in terms of
developing its own policies with respect to abuse and
handling complaints and all of that. So they have revised
all their systems and, yes, they have something in place at
the moment, which is well able to provide the guarantees
that the families and the students require for being in
a safe place. That's from their side.
From the brothers' side, have we done a specific
reflection on Canberra? I think I can say it has just been
ongoing and, in the development of our own policies, the
Canberra events certainly influenced the sorts of things
which we now put into our own province policies with
respect to that.
For example, the whole question of grooming, if
I could use that one as an example - there has been a whole
attempt at the moment to help people to well understand the
nature of grooming. Granted that in terms of the clientele
of the brothers at the moment, the average age and so on,
you are dealing with people who are over 75, in the main.
They are not always active in the sense of working with or
having unsupervised access to kids at the moment, anyway.
In the younger group, they are well schooled now in terms
of what constitutes grooming.
Q. I just want to move on to some other issues now. Am
I correct in understanding that Kostka Chute is still
a brother of the Marist order?
A. He is a brother under severe restrictions.
Q. But he is still a brother of the Marist order?
A. Yes.
Q. Have there been any moves taken to remove that status?
I'm not quite sure of the word. Would defrocking be the
correct word?
A. No, there haven't been. That doesn't mean that there
won't be.
Q. No moves at all to do that?
A. Well, I can't speak for all my predecessors and I must
say that I haven't discussed that with my immediate two
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4031 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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predecessors, as to whether they had considered the matter.
Q. Well, you are the current provincial. Have you
considered the matter?
A. Yes, in my own self, I have. But that doesn't count
for anything when I haven't discussed that fully with my
council.
Q. What do you think should happen? Do you think that
Kostka Chute should be able to present himself to the world
as a Marist Brother?
A. Well, he doesn't present himself to the world as
a Marist Brother at the moment. That's what I said. He's
under severe restrictions. He's not free to use the name
"Brother". He's not referred to as a brother, and he is
not in any way involved in activities associated with the
brothers.
In a sense, it's a care situation which we have for
him at the moment, which is simply as an elderly man and as
a man more or less going between low care, high care, how
do we appropriately exercise our own long-term
responsibilities to him, because he has no independent
finances and he has no way of suddenly arriving back and
making a claim on his family and all of that. So that's
a difficulty for us at the moment in terms of a person like
that.
Q. I have read some reference in the documents, the large
number of documents, that Kostka Chute also taught overseas
for a period. Are you aware of that?
A. No, I don't think so. He attended a program in the
United States, in Spokane. I don't think he was - I'm sure
he wasn't teaching there, though.
Q. I may have made a mistake in the documents. I will
check that. Just moving to something else, you are
a director of the Trustee of the Marist Trust?
A. Yes.
Q. And have been since 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. I note that you haven't set that out in your
statement. Is there any reason for that?
A. Oh, no, there is no particular reason for that,
because the two groups - the Provincial Council and the
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4032 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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body of trustees - are exactly the same. So it was just an
oversight on my side in terms of what would be appropriate
to put down in my responsibilities. At the last case
study, I said quite clearly there that I am the head
trustee, yes.
Q. Was there any discussion with Brother Heinrich or
Brother Turton as to whether or not they would note the
fact that they have been directors of the trust in their
statements?
A. No.
Q. No conversation about that?
A. No.
Q. It's just a coincidence that nobody says that they are
a trustee?
A. We don't normally speak of ourselves that way. We
speak of ourselves as being on the Provincial Council, so
that would be the reason for it. Really, it's only since
maybe 2008, when the litigation matters started to come up
in a very obvious way, that there was a full sense of the
implications of being a trustee in that sense, so therefore
of your name being included in a lawsuit. Yes.
Q. I note that Peter Gerard Carroll is also a member of
the directors of the trustee?
A. Yes.
Q. He is also special counsel, I understand, for
Carroll & O'Dea?
A. Sorry, special counsel?
Q. Yes. Certainly two people - no? Okay, I'm told that
I have got that wrong, that it is not the same person.
I did understand it was the same person, but I think
that I --
A. No.
Q. You would have heard me ask Brother Turton some
questions yesterday about the conduct of the litigation in
which my client was a plaintiff?
A. Yes.
Q. You would have heard me ask some questions about the
kinds of matters which were not admitted in the defence on
behalf of the church?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4033 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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A. Yes.
Q. Were you involved in making those decisions about how
the defence would be set up?
A. I mentioned before to counsel assisting that I was
certainly involved in conversations with my own lawyers and
the lawyers of CCI.
Q. And you gave instructions to your lawyers?
A. I gave instructions to our lawyers, but it was, as
I indicated before, CCI who were the lead lawyers in the
litigation matter.
Q. Did you read the pleadings - and by that I mean the
originating statement and the defence?
A. Yes.
Q. For all of the plaintiffs?
A. I couldn't say whether it was for all, but I certainly
did.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that my client claimed that
he was a student at Marist College and that the defence was
"Not admitted"; are you aware of that?
A. No. I am now. I have heard that, and I find it quite
unbelievable. But if it was a question of records not
being correct, I don't know, and I cannot explain that, and
I am sorry that that had happened.
Q. You would be aware that, obviously, the school has the
records and my client did not have the records; that's
obvious, isn't it?
A. Yes, yes, yes.
Q. I can tell you that what he needed to do was to prove
that he was a student at the school, which meant scurrying
around looking for school reports and yearbooks, and was
a very difficult process for him?
A. I can only take it as an example of the normal
procedures of the defence, if you like, in terms of such
claims, as making sure that the person concerned was where
he said he was and that what happened did happen.
Evidently, from what has been said, the initial inquiries
to the school didn't have the records straight. I have no
independent understanding of that, and I deeply regret it,
because I'm sure that it did cause great distress to [AAP].
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4034 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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Q. Do you understand that the defence also did not admit
that Kostka Chute had taught at the school between 1971 and
1991, as alleged by the plaintiffs? Did you have any
knowledge of why that was also not admitted?
A. No, and it surprises me now to hear that.
Q. The defence also did not admit that the first
defendant, which was the trustees, operated and was
responsible for the supervision of the teachers at the
school?
A. The Marist Brothers have always accepted
a responsibility in terms of the conduct of the school at
Marist College in Pearce. The particular legal entity
which was named, the Trustees of the Marist Brothers, prior
to 1986 was a land-holding company. It did not have the
legal status of being a body that operated schools, so that
the trustees - that whole name there, the Trustees of the
Marist Brothers - as a legal entity, in the same way as
I believe in the Ellis v Pell case, the Archdiocese of
Sydney, that it was registered - that was the normal thing
under the Catholic Church Community Act. And so that's who
it was. The trustees - that name, the Trustees of the
Marist Brothers, under which we are a body corporate, prior
to 1986 was simply for holding land.
Q. But you accept that the litigation was in 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. When the Marist Brothers Trust was certainly
a corporate body?
A. Yes. From 1986, that's right. In New South Wales,
the law changed.
Q. I just want to turn to another issue. You have
outlined to counsel assisting that there is a process by
which applicants who have settled with the church but at
some later stage are dissatisfied and want to come back -
there is some sort of, I will call it an appeal process; is
that correct?
A. I wouldn't say that it is a mechanism which is wholly
established, but certainly we are receiving more
applications for people for review of prior settlements.
Q. Is it possible to say how many applications you have
received for that review?
A. I'm aware of four - something like three or four now.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4035 J J CROWE (Ms McGlinchey)
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Q. What has been the result of those three or four?
A. We have in fact increased the - well, normally it does
involve an additional financial payment, and so that has
been granted.
Q. So those matters for review have been completed and
they have been successful?
A. Yes, and I would like to say that I have offered that
recently to other people involved in this particular case
study.
MS McGLINCHEY: Nothing further. Thank you.
MR KERNAGHAN: Your Honour, I am sorry, there is just
a matter that arose in my friend's questions. There is
just one area.

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Q. In your role as the head of the order, what steps have
you caused to be taken to have the order reach back into
its past and look for information from people who are in
positions to observe such behaviour regarding Mr Sutton or
anyone else?
A. No, I don't believe that we have done that. There is
a delicate matter there in terms of it turning into
a witch-hunt.
Q. A witch-hunt of whom?
A. In terms of the - well, in terms of - I shouldn't have
maybe used that term there. But in terms of asking
people - the simple answer is that I have not done it.
Q. For example, you would understand today, with the
knowledge that you have in your position today, the great
challenges that confront complainants in coming forward
about abuse that they have suffered? You would acknowledge
that that is a difficult thing for a person to do?
A. It is a very difficult thing to do at the personal,
emotional level, yes.
Q. You would acknowledge that that can be a very
difficult thing for people who have witnessed behaviours
trending in that direction to report about?
A. Yes.
Q. Particularly if they are reporting about their
colleagues?
A. If I can help you to understand what is happening
inside me at this stage, it's more than a colleague
relationship which we are dealing with here, because the
relationship between brothers is not that - simply that of
work colleagues. It is, as the name suggests, approaching
that of brothers in a family situation, and so it's not --
Q. Some of your brothers, through the history of your
order, have not been ignorant or blind to what is happening
around them; some of them have seen things and have raised
those issues, but the order has historically, it seems, at
least in the case of Brother Sutton, not done a great deal
in response to some of those claims. You would agree with
that as a general proposition?
A. I really don't know the extent of the observations or
the communications.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4037 J J CROWE (Mr Kernaghan)
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Q. Which is my question, which I will put more finely to
you: what have you done, as the head of your order, to
investigate that?
A. No, I haven't taken any particular action at the
moment in respect of that.
MR KERNAGHAN:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
MS FURNESS:
Thank you.
Thanks, Mr Kernaghan.
I note the time, your Honour.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes. We will take the luncheon
adjournment now until 2pm.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Mr Skinner, do you have any
questions of Brother Crowe?
MR SKINNER:
No, Commissioner, thank you.
MR S O'CONNELL: Commissioner, I appear for
Damian De Marco. I seek leave to ask questions of
Brother Crowe. I am standing in for Peter O'Brien.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:

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A. Yes.
Q. Would the order still be able to provide care for him
if he were defrocked?
A. That is the matter that is under consideration at the
moment.
Q. Would there be, when considering that matter, any
financial considerations to take into account?
A. My presumption is that he has no assets and that, in
as much as, as a brother, he has not been in any
income-earning capacity, the man is destitute.
Q. Let me make clearer what I'm asking. If he remains
within the order, the order will provide him financial
assistance; correct?
A. He receives a pension, so that is the limit of his
financial assistance.
Q. If he were to be defrocked, would he continue to
receive that pension?
A. Yes, as a citizen of Australia.
Q. Would there be any impact on him being defrocked on
the financial situation of the Marist order?
A. I think that we would feel an obligation to ensure
that he had adequate accommodation. Now, if this can be
done through a nursing facility or hostel or nursing
facility in which his pension, as is true for lots of other
Australians - then that's what we would do. It wouldn't be
an over-the-top arrangement in any particular case.
Q. But would there be a difference as to where the money
would come from, whether he were part of the order or not
part of the order?
A. As I said there, I mean, if the order needed to
provide some additional support in order to gain him
a place in a suitable facility, then that would come from
the order. But otherwise it would just simply be through
the assistance that is available to all Australians.
Q. Just quickly going over ground that is well known, he
was convicted in 2009 of 19 offences?
A. Yes.
Q. And gaoled for those offences?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4039 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. You appeared before this Commission in January to give
evidence?
A. Yes.
Q. You were asked a number of questions, when you
appeared previously, about convicted paedophiles still
being in the order?
A. Yes.
Q. You've given evidence today that the question of
whether he be defrocked or not is not a matter that you
have discussed fully with your council to this date?
A. That is true, it's not - we have not had a complete
and final discussion of the matter.
Q. So following his criminal convictions, no discussion
fully with your council?
A. The priority discussions at that stage were related to
his safety and where he would actually be accommodated.
Q. But then he spent a number of years in gaol, and
during those years in gaol no full discussion with your
council?
A. That's correct.
Q. Then when the questions were put to you in January,
and those questions reported in the media, again no
discussion fully with your council?
A. That's correct.
Q. I'm assuming in the last five years, you've had plenty
of opportunity to speak with your council about this
matter?
A. Well, in terms of numbers of meetings, yes. But in
terms of other matters, it hasn't had the priority, because
the circumstances which we were providing for him were ones
at the moment of supervision on our own behalf and on
behalf of society, and so that particular issue as to
status was not the priority concern. Our concern was the
safety of children and his own personal security.
Q. Did it ever cross your mind that his remaining in the
order and the remaining of other convicted paedophiles in
the order would cause substantial distress to persons who
had been affected?
A. I am aware of that.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4040 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. Was that ever discussed with your council?
A. It has not - that forms part of the discussion.
Q. I'll move on to another area. You gave evidence today
that in relation to the working up of a defence to the
various claims, your position was ambivalent; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You also then gave evidence that you were not aware of
the full implications of the expression "punitive or
exemplary damages"?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then that a deed of release was seen by you as
actually being something that would give claimants closure?
A. Yes.
Q. And the defence of making a claimant prove that they
actually went to the school in question was an example of
normal procedures of defence?
A. Yes.
Q. If the witness could be shown tab 64, have you seen
this document, sir?
A. I have.
Q. Can you tell the Commission who is responsible for the
creation of that document?
A. I believe it's myself, but I don't have it in front of
me now, other than on the screen, so I can't see the
signature at the bottom.
Q. But you believe that it was you who created it?
A. Yes, it has my name at the bottom.
Q. Can I get you to look at the paragraph five from the
bottom?
A. Yes.
Q. Actually, sorry, if we could go further up, on the
first page, five from the bottom of the first page,
starting with the words, "We will continue"?
A. Yes.
Q. Those are your words?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4041 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. No, I believe that originally they came into the
discussion from one of the other people present at the
meeting.
Q. But you created the document?
A. I did.
Q. And you wrote the words:
We will continue to "play hardball" ...
A. In inverted commas, yes.
Q. But then you continued to write, after that, the next
sentence:
A. Yes.
This means using all legal defence
strategies open to us ...
Q. Then:
A. Yes.
... Ellis-Pell; statutes of limitation,
etc.
Q. You then went on to say:
A. Yes.
If we offered a "corporate" target, we
would probably be up for $300,000 per
claimant ...
Q. And you ended that paragraph with:
A. Yes.
This figure alone should make us think
about our defence strategy.
Q. These, sir, were minutes really from a teleconference
which occurred on 21 July 2008?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4042 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. Present during this conference were a lawyer from
Carroll & O'Dea, Mr Howard Harrison?
A. Yes.
Q. The lawyer for the Catholic insurance, Pat Monahan?
A. Yes.
Q. Yourself and Alexis Turton?
A. Yes.
Q. It seems patently clear from that document, sir, that
you were thinking very carefully about your defence
strategy?
A. The group was thinking about our defence strategy,
yes.
Q. And you were a main part of that group?
A. I was one of the members of the group.
Q. In fact, you were the person who was instructing your
lawyers?
A. I was not instructing the CCI lawyers.
Q. You were the provincial at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. I would suggest, sir, that that document indicates
anything but being ambivalent?
A. There are many documents in the tender bundles, and
I think that over all the whole period it would be quite
clear --
Q. Just in relation to this document --
MS FURNESS:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Let the witness finish the answer.
We'll hear the answer.
Q. Keep going, Brother Crowe.
A. It would be quite clear that I was uncomfortable with
the type of strategy that was being proposed, and so any
one statement like this has to be taken along with a lot of
others.
MR O'CONNELL: Q. Would you agree that these particular
statements indicate an attitude that is anything but
ambivalent? It seems quite clear, doesn't it, to you?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4043 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. This is a group talk, yes.
Q. And at the time, you were fully aware of the
implications of punitive or exemplary damages?
A. No. I don't see those - no, I don't.
Q. You understand what those words mean, don't you, the
ordinary meaning?
A. Yes.
Q. It seems quite clear what they mean, doesn't it?
A. As I said, I'm not sure how that operates in
a litigation case.
Q. Are you aware of the simple prospect that it operates
so that a person gets damages that punish the party who
wronged them?
A. Yes.
Q. And additional damages for their suffering?
A. Yes.
Q. So you are aware of what the expression means?
A. I don't see those words on this page.
Q. No, no, I'm just asking you - forget the page. I'm
just asking you now, you know what those words mean?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're aware of the full implications?
A. I repeat I'm not fully aware how that works in the
legal sense.
Q. The deed of release, the idea that that's meant to be
some kind of closure - where did that idea come from?
A. That was my - in a sense, that was the advice that
I was given by my lawyer, that that was his experience and
that that was what people required and wanted.
Q. It was your lawyer's idea that people who had suffered
sexual abuse required a deed of release to feel closure?
A. The deed of release was one aspect of what was part of
the whole proceedings of a mediation or of a settlement
discussion.
Q. Did you or your lawyers ask any of the claimants
whether they felt that a deed of release would give them
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4044 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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closure?
A. I personally didn't.
Q. So when you give that evidence to the Commission
today, it's based on some idea given to you by your lawyer?
A. Yes.
Q. The issue of making persons prove that they went to
a particular school is an example of playing hardball, is
it not?
A. No, I don't think so. It's just a question, as I said
before, of whether the person was - the person said in his
claim that he went to a school, so it's normal that you
would check the school records, because that's what the
lawyers always ask for; can they be given the school
records.
Q. Did you instruct your lawyers to make things such as
attendance at school be proven by the defence [sic]?
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, I rise to my feet because, as
I understand it, none of these matters went to court. They
were all mediated, so there was no making any person prove
they went to a particular school, because the matter didn't
get to proof.
MR O'CONNELL: Q. Sorry, in the preparation for matters
going to court, did you instruct your lawyers to not agree
to any point, including points such as whether the person
went to the school?
A. I repeat that the direction of the legal defence was
in the hands of, in this case, Mr Patrick Monahan from the
Catholic Church Insurance, so I wasn't giving, myself,
personally, any instructions.
Q. I'll move on to another area. You gave evidence about
the order having questions about the status of evidence
relating to prior knowledge.
A. Yes.
Q. Then you answered some questions from my learned
friend Mr Kernaghan, where you indicated that you conducted
no investigation into the past?
A. That's correct, there has been no independent,
historical investigation.
Q. Would you concede that in fact the actions of the
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4045 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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order, with your knowledge, went further than not
conducting an investigation but actively attempted to keep
information from seeing the light of day?
A. I'm sorry, are you saying that in my time that is the
situation?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Can the witness be shown tab 84. Have you seen this
document?
A. Yes.
Q. This is an email from the lawyer, Howard Harrison,
addressed to you, "cc Keith Turton"?
A. Yes.
Q. Who I assume is Alexis Turton, dated 1 May 2009?
A. Yes.
Q. I would just like to take you to three parts of that
email. The first is the third line where Mr Harrison
says - and he's talking here about Brother Kostka:
Regrettably quite up front about various
discussions with Provincials over the
years ...
Then I'll take you further down to the line that begins,
"Trouble":
Trouble is fundamentally he has high
honesty and integrity levels and all of my
"suggestions" about not dumping on others
excessively go out the window pretty
quickly once there is a conversation under
way.
Then the final line:
A. Yes.
We would need to keep him well away from
the legal arena upon release.
Q. Would you agree that the language used by Mr Harrison
in this email would seem to indicate that rather than
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4046 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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viewing Brother Kostka as a source of information that may
bring out the truth and healing, he was actually seen as
a liability that may impact upon the Marist Brothers and
one that they need to sweep under the carpet, so to speak?
A. I agree that he does give the impression there of some
liability. However, I would also believe - because this,
once again, is all part of another series of
communications - that there were serious doubts as to the
evidence being given by John Chute.
Q. Did you respond to that email from Howard Harrison?
A. I don't know whether I would have responded in email
form or whether it was at another moment, because we were
having pretty frequent discussions, whether I chose such
a time to talk it through with him.
Q. What did you say to him about the line:
We would need to keep him well away from
the legal arena upon release.
A. I don't remember having made any statement back to him
on that.
Q. You didn't think that that was an important statement
for you to discuss with him?
A. I didn't know that there was going to be any question
of his coming into any legal arena prior to his - post his
release.
Q. My client, Mr De Marco, was cross-examined during this
Commission in relation to his memory. That
cross-examination was based on psychiatric material that
was made available to you through the civil proceedings,
which indicated that, in the past, he had used the drug
cannabis?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it your instructions to your lawyers to
cross-examine him on the basis of that material?
A. No, not directly.
Q. When you say "not directly", what does that mean?
A. There was a consistency in terms of the statement of
Brother Turton, and so there was - that was the - the
barrister representing Marist Brothers and the Truth,
Justice and Healing Council took that as the instruction.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4047 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. So you're saying your lawyer took as his instruction
what the supposed version of Brother Turton was?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that extend necessarily to cross-examining
Mr De Marco in relation to psychiatric material that had
been provided to you for the purpose of the civil
proceedings?
A. I certainly didn't give any direct instruction to the
barrister to do that, but it was obvious that where you had
consistent statements being made, there was going to be
some question as to which was the correct version.
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, I note that the transcript is
referring to "consistent statements". Could I just inquire
whether the witness said consistent or inconsistent
statements.
THE WITNESS: I meant inconsistent statements. Sorry.
MR O'CONNELL: Q. How do you feel about a victim of
sexual abuse being cross-examined on their memory on the
basis of psychiatric material provided for civil
proceedings?
A. I'm most distressed. Most distressed.
MR O'CONNELL:
Nothing further.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you, Mr O'Connell. Mr Gray?

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A. Yes.
Q. That note has itself four parts - (a), (b), (c) and
(d)?
A. Yes.
Q. With (a) being general court strategy, then on the
second page (b) being public relations, and (c) and (d) as
we can see?
A. Yes.
Q. In section (a), general court strategy, do you see
that the first line is:
CCI position:
court ...
et cetera?
A. Yes.
be of assistance to the
Q. And CCI's position in being of assistance to the court
is noted as involving identifying individuals as
appropriate defendants, and the types of individuals are
then noted?
A. Yes.
Q. Then there is an explanation of that point in the
third line about the trustees and the office of provincial
not being the appropriate defendants?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the next few lines, first of all, start with
"We":
We do accept a moral responsibility ... and
will make financial settlements.
Then there is something said about "Parkinson's position" -
that's Mr Parkinson, the lawyer for many of the plaintiffs
or claimants; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says:
We will continue to "play hardball" until
we move to mediation.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4049 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Then the next line is:
If we offered a "corporate" target ...
Certain results would follow.
that, it says:
Then at the end of all of
CCI will send us a written statement of
their approach.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a reasonable assumption that all of that
section, starting with, "CCI position: be of assistance",
down to, "CCI will send us a written statement of their
approach", is a note of what the CCI position was?
A. I think that's a fair statement.
Q. So when it was put to you, as I think it was by
Mr O'Connell, that passages like, "We will continue to
'play hardball'" and about using all defence strategies,
such as Ellis-Pell and statutes of limitation, were really
you saying that, is that the position, do you think?
A. I think I mentioned just a few moments ago there that
I believe that that was a collective "we".
Q. And as part of CCI's position?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to ask you a bit about the question of
mediation. Do you see that the line beginning,
"Parkinson's position" says:
Parkinson's position is to keep the matter
in the courts. He refuses to talk about
court-ordered mediation.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. If you turn the page, or it's scrolled down for you,
to the heading "Public relations", (b), do you see that
this appears:
We want to correct the false impression
given on the Lateline program by Parkinson
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4050 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. Yes.
that we are proposing Towards Healing
mediation for all. We are proposing
court-ordered mediation.
Q. I think civil claims, the evidence indicates, in
relation to Brother Chute started to be made from about
2008?
A. Yes.
Q. The first half of 2008, and sometimes that was by
filing statements of claim in court, sometimes it was by
letters of claim from lawyers; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. When that flow of claims and correspondence began and
thereafter, what was your attitude, as provincial, to how
to go about seeking to resolve those claims?
A. I'm not following. Again, please?
Q. When the flow of claims started to come in in the
first half of 2008, either by court statements of claim or
by legal letters, did you have a view yourself as to
whether and how it might be possible to resolve those
claims quickly or fairly?
A. I was always anxious that they be dealt with as soon
as possible, and there is evidence in the tender bundles
there and some other sheets there that I was concerned
about the delays involved and the impact of that on people.
Q. Did you communicate, either yourself or through your
lawyers, to either Mr Parkinson or other lawyers for
claimants, that willingness to try to resolve claims, for
example through mediation?
A. I believe I did, particularly through Mr Harrison, and
I know Mr Harrison had conversations at different times
with Mr Parkinson, for example, and we had had a meeting
quite early in the piece - I don't know whether Mr Harrison
was there, but it was certainly the CCI lawyers and myself,
and Mr Parkinson and QC, I think we had a QC as well, and
we indicated quite clearly at that stage our desire to move
straight into - as soon as possible into some form of
court-ordered mediation.
Q. When you say "early in the piece", is that in 2008?
A. Oh, very definitely.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4051 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. In the first half of 2008, do you think?
A. Yes. This was sort of prior to matters going into the
courtroom itself in the ACT Supreme Court.
Q. What was Mr Parkinson's response to your indication of
the desire to move as soon as possible into some form of
court-ordered mediation?
A. I believe he felt that in terms of doing the
litigation in the way in which he understood at the time,
the better thing would be not to go into mediation but to
proceed as far as he could in terms of the court
litigation.
Q. Is that what he said to you at that meeting that
you've mentioned?
A. I believe so.
Q. One other matter that Mr O'Connell put to you
concerned the questions that were put to Mr De Marco in
Canberra in relation to some psychiatric material; do you
remember being asked about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you present at every conference that took place
among representatives of the Marist Brothers and/or the
Truth, Justice and Healing Council with their lawyers?
A. I am not sure if I was present at all of them, no.
Q. Now, some other matters, if I may, Brother Crowe. In
September and October 1993, was there a meeting of the
general chapter of the Marist Brothers in Rome?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you made some inquiries which indicate that that
general chapter meeting that year was from 8 September to
23 October 1993?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you there for that meeting?
A. I was.
Q. Was Brother Alexis Turton there for that meeting?
A. He was.
Q. Were you both there until it concluded on 23 October?
A. I believe so.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4052 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. Do you know whether Brother Alexis Turton returned
thereafter straight back to Australia or not?
A. I really don't know.
Q. Then the next matter, Brother Crowe, is this -
I wonder if tender bundle tab 1 could be brought up,
please. This is a print-out of Brother Chute's ministry,
and I just want to ask you one thing, if we go to the third
page of it, the last four entries. I think you were asked
one or two questions about this this morning. Do you see,
according to the print-out, from January 1997 to December
2001, the workplace is stated as "Marist Farmhouse,
Mittagong"?
A. Yes.
Q. Then from 1 January 2002 to 31 December 2007, the
workplace is stated as "Marist Centre, Mittagong"?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your understanding, if any, or your knowledge,
as to where Brother Chute was working and living throughout
the whole period covered by those dates, that is, from
January 1997 to December 2007?
A. The first period there, 14 January 1997 to 31/12/01,
describes it as being part of the Marist Farmhouse
community, which was a project for young adults, a mixed
community of brothers and young adults and men and women,
and in that capacity there, he was a cook. He was very
much involved in the kitchen. There were difficulties in
the internal relationships there and also with the
efficiencies, and it was decided that it was better for him
to finish as part of that particular project. He wasn't
being a helpful person in terms of that project going
ahead. So he was moved down the road, in a sense,
approximately 800 metres to a kilometre, to another
residence of the brothers in that part of the property
which was called at that time there the Marist Centre,
Mittagong, but he didn't have any work responsibilities at
all. Effectively, he was retired from that stage. He had
a little vegetable garden out the back.
Q. Was there one community or two communities, that is,
in terms of the farmhouse and the centre?
A. At that stage, as in 1 January 2002, it was still two
communities. By the end, I'd have to check, but I believe
that around about 2005 or 2006, it became one community.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4053 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. During the second period there, 1 January 2002 to
31 December 2007, to your knowledge was he actually working
at the Marist Centre?
A. My knowledge is that he definitely was not, and there
was a professional group of cooks and cleaners involved.
Q. There were some questions asked this morning about the
proceedings brought by one particular claimant, Mr [AAP].
Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And various questions were put to you about what was
alleged in the statement of claim and what was admitted or
not admitted in the defence?
A. Yes.
MR GRAY: I wish to show Brother Crowe the actual
statement of claim and the actual defence with a view to
tendering them and having them added to the tender bundle.
I have raised this with counsel assisting, and the
Commission has these documents. So I wonder if that could
be done, if I can show them.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Yes.
MR GRAY: Q. Do you have those, Brother Crowe? Have
they been given to you?
A. No.
Q. As far as you know, Brother Crowe, is that the
statement of claim and the defence in the [AAP] proceedings
as filed with the court?
A. Yes.
MR GRAY: I tender those documents, or ask that they be
added to the tender bundle, with respect.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
They will need some redactions.
MS FURNESS: I'm happy to tender them. Not only do they
need redactions, but there is no Ringtail reference, so I'm
not sure whether they have indeed been produced to the
Royal Commission. We couldn't find them when we were asked
about them some time ago. I am certainly happy to have
them tendered.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4054 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
exhibit 13-39.
The documents will be marked
EXHIBIT #13-39 STATEMENT OF CLAIM AND DEFENCE IN THE [AAP]
PROCEEDINGS AS FILED WITH THE COURT
MR GRAY:
Thank you, your Honour.
Q. Another matter that I want to ask you about,
Brother Crowe, is this: were you here yesterday during
Brother Turton's evidence?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you notice there were some questions asked of
him as to why certain searches were carried out for
a period going back to 1970, and I think it was up to 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember questions being asked of him as to,
"Why not look for documents earlier than 1970?"
A. Yes.
Q. Are you able to assist the Commission from your
knowledge as to any reason or reasons why searches were
carried out for the period in question, namely, 1970 to
1994?
A. When the question was raised yesterday, I was thinking
to myself, what was so special about 1970? And
particularly as counsel at the time was asking the
question, he said, "Why didn't you go back and look at the
previous years?", but on the documents it said to 1970.
The only reason I could think of yesterday when the matter
came up was that our insurance kicked in in 1970. That was
the only reason that I could think of at the time.
Q. In addition to that, have you been shown today
a notice to produce issued by Porters Lawyers in July 2008
calling for the production of various documents, nearly all
of them for the period between 1970 and 1994?
A. Well, I was made aware of that this morning, yes.
MR GRAY: Again, I seek to ask Brother Crowe to look at
the document and then to have it added. I have raised this
as well.
Q. As you understand it now, was a reason for the search
going back as far as 1970 and not before simply that that
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4055 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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is what this notice called for?
A. Yes, as expressed in the schedule, in the third-last
page of this block of notes, yes. It says everything
that's there from 1970 to 1994.
MR GRAY:
bundle.
MS FURNESS:
I ask that that document be added to the tender
I tender that, your Honour.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Exhibit 13-40.
EXHIBIT #13-40 NOTICE TO PRODUCE ISSUED BY
PORTERS LAWYERS IN JULY 2008 CALLING FOR THE
PRODUCTION OF VARIOUS DOCUMENTS
MR GRAY: Q. This morning counsel assisting took you to
tender bundle 227, and I wonder if we could have that,
please. Tender bundle 227, Brother Crowe, you may or may
not know, actually has two letters in it, both dated
22 June 2009. You were taken this morning to the first of
those, and I'll start with that. That's the one that's on
the screen now. This is the letter from Monahan + Rowell,
the CCI solicitors, to CCI at that date. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 4, the solicitors say that they "do have
significant evidence" from Brother Chute to the effect,
picking up paragraph 3, that there was relevant knowledge
on the part of some superiors about Kostka Chute's behaving
in sexually inappropriate ways. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then in paragraph 5, the lawyers point out to CCI that
that evidence is from Brother Chute himself. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. That's the significant evidence they're referring to,
and do you see they then add that the interview is not
transcribed and Brother Chute would not sign a written
statement?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 6, they go on to say:
There is no significant corroboration
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4056 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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available.
A. That's right.
Q. Then in paragraph 7, they say:
Brother Kostka Chute would be challenged in
a Court of law as an unreliable witness -
a convicted paedophile ... who had evidence
led on his behalf at his criminal trial
that he is of diminished mental capacity,
and accordingly that his recollection of
events going back up to 47 years is neither
reliable nor credible.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 9 of that letter, the solicitors tell CCI
that they, the lawyers:
... would have major concerns about relying
on the evidence of Brother Kostka Chute to
prove "prior knowledge" of the relevant
Provincials.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you become aware at about this time or at any time
that those were the kinds of views that Monahan + Rowell
were expressing about the likely reliability of
Kostka Chute 's statements?
A. Not directly. I don't remember having any
conversations directly, certainly, either with Mr Monahan
or with CCI people themselves directly about that.
Q. But certainly the topic of whether there should be
some arrangement as to indemnity, which is, for example,
referred to in paragraph 11 and following of that letter,
was connected in part to a view being taken of the
reliability of what Kostka Chute was saying?
A. That's right, there was an openness on our side to
look at it.
Q. Then if I can take you to the second letter which is
part of tab 227, which is dated the same day, and it's also
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4057 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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from Monahan + Rowell to CCI, this seems to be a longer
letter covering some of the same ground in greater detail
and some additional ground. Could I draw your attention in
particular, first of all, to paragraph 11, which sums up
the point that there was what's called evidence from
Kostka Chute about what he had told three different Marist
provincials at various times.
Then in paragraph 12, they say that two of those
provincials were deceased, and the third one,
Brother Charles Howard, was alive, but he was hospitalised
and his short-term memory was significantly affected, but
his long-term memory seemed sound?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I'll skip over the next few paragraphs for
a moment to arrive at paragraph 17, where they summarise by
saying:
So our attempts to confirm and corroborate
what Brother Kostka Chute told us have not
borne fruit.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 19, they say:
... there would be those who would
challenge and doubt Brother Kostka's
reliability as a witness.
And they refer to the evidence at his criminal trial of his
diminished mental capacity, and so on?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 35 and following, they talk about the
problems associated with placing reliance on what
Kostka Chute was saying. Do you see paragraph 35 notes
that they are:
... acutely conscious of the fact that
there is no documentary corroboration of
Brother Kostka Chute's statement ... and
that Brother Charles Howard does not
remember the alleged events.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4058 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 36, they say, "So we", that is, Monahan +
Rowell and/or CCI - "are relying for our information on
a convicted paedophile", including someone whose evidence
at the trial was that he was of diminished mental capacity?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the second-last paragraph I want to show you is
paragraph 39. Do you see they say in paragraph 39:
We -
presumably Monahan + Rowell -
have a number of major concerns in this
regard ...
And there are six listed.
Subparagraph (d) is:
To be blunt, we would not be at all
surprised (and far from it) if he
remembered matters differently in the
witness box.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And at (e):
We would be even less surprised if he made
a number of generous concessions to the
barrister representing the Marist Brothers
who was cross-examining him, and if his
evidence was substantially
weakened/diminished (if not demolished) in
that process.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then in paragraph 42, they add that they were not
permitted to take a recording device to the interview with
Kostka Chute. They note that they are "relying on
handwritten notes taken by" Mr Monahan and Mr Bucci.
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4059 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. They say:
A. Yes.
We have no signed statement from
Brother Kostka, and are certain that he
would not agree to sign a statement.
Q. And in paragraph 52, Monahan + Rowell note some
observations that Carroll & O'Dea, the solicitors for the
Marist Brothers, had made in a letter of theirs, including,
at the first bullet point, that:
A. Yes.
The Marist Brothers have substantial
reservations as to the accuracy of
Brother Kostka Chute's recollections of
discussions with previous Provincials and
the actual nature of the interactions which
did take place between him and the
Provincials ...
Q. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the second bullet point, Carroll & O'Dea note
the inconsistency between what Brother Kostka Chute recalls
and the apparent recollections of Brother Charles Howard?
A. Yes.
Q. And the fourth bullet point is that it is difficult to
tell precisely from Kostka Chute's recollection exactly
what each provincial knew and the circumstances in which
that was conveyed to him. Do you see all that?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. What I want to take you to, in the light of that, are
some questions that were put to Brother Alexis in Canberra
concerning what the record - what was described as "the
record" in the Royal Commission - revealed about Charles
Howard in particular. At page 3653, Brother Alexis was
asked about the 1969 meeting of the Provincial Council,
July 1969?
A. Yes.
Q. Which contains the reference to the canonical
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4060 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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warning - you know the document I'm speaking about?
A. Yes. Actually, I'm not sure that there ever was
a document.
Q. I'm just referring to the minutes.
A. Yes.
Q. Just the minutes, which I'll show you in a second. At
page 3653 line 44, Brother Turton was asked whether it was
reasonable to assume that the provincial, Brother Howard,
was aware of admissions of sexual abuse made by
Kostka Chute which led up to the 1969 canonical warning, as
well as the admission in 1972, when he made the
appointment - that is, the appointment to Marist College
Canberra. I'll come back to the topic of the admission in
1972, but just focusing on the 1969 minute, the answer that
Brother Turton gave was:
Charles Howard was at that meeting where
the canonical warning was given, so
I accept that he would be aware of the
offence or allegation.
I don't know if you were in the hearing room --
A. I see that.
Q. Were you in the hearing room when this was being
covered?
A. Yes.
Q. Tender bundle 2 is an extract from, but not the whole
of, the minutes of that 1969 Provincial Council meeting.
The item in relation to Brother Kostka is on the second of
those two pages, if we can scroll to that, and I think
you've obviously seen this before?
A. Yes.
Q. If we could scroll down to the item concerning
Brother Kostka. You've already been asked about this, and
I don't need to dwell on it, but what I want to ask you is
this: if we go to the top of the minute, the first few
lines on the first page, do you see against the word
"Attendance", this appears:
Very Rev Brother Hilary, CG ...
That's "CG" standing for?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4061 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. General councillor.
Q. Then:
Rev Br Othmar (Provl), Br Gildas,
Br Demetrius, Br Alman ...
Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says:
A. Yes.
(and later in the meeting) Br Elias,
Br Victor and Br Ildephonsus.
Q. At that time, were any of Brother Elias,
Brother Victor or Brother Ildephonsus on the Provincial
Council?
A. From my research, no.
Q. Have you, in the last week or so, been able to see the
full set of minutes of which these first two pages are
part?
A. I have.
Q. And have you also been able to see the minutes of the
meeting of the Provincial Council immediately before this
one, in June 1969?
A. I have.
MR GRAY: I wonder if I could have those shown to
Brother Crowe, those two, and I'd like to ask him some
questions about them. Again, this has been raised with
counsel assisting.
Q. First of all, Brother Crowe - I think we've had this
in evidence already, but just for confirmation -
Brother Elias was the religious name of Brother Charles
Howard?
A. At one stage, yes, that's right.
Q. If we look at the minutes for 14 June 1969, do you see
there's an entry for "Correspondence. Brother Elias"?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4062 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Q. Which says:
Brother will be arriving in Sydney on
10 July and will be available immediately
for work on the Provincial Chapter.
Do you have hard copies with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And the people present at that meeting in June were
Brother Othmar as provincial, Brother Anselm,
Brother Gildas, Brother Demetrius and Brother Alman. Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. If we go to the full set of minutes for 19 July, they
are a total of four pages; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. After the entry for Brother Kostka, which is towards
the bottom of the second page, there are a further four
additional topics dealt with: firstly, Enoggera, which was
to do with a building issue and disputes concerning what
was to happen about the chapel and the administration
block, and so on. Can you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then there's an item which has been redacted, and then
at the bottom of page 3 there is a heading "Report from
Steering Committee - Provincial Chapter". Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. The minutes say:
A. Yes.
The members of the Steering Committee,
Brs Alman, Elias, Ildephonsus and Victor,
then presented to the Council a document on
some thoughts on the preparation and
organisation of the Provincial Chapter.
Q. And the topics listed for discussion were - and
they're set out. Then at the end of item 5, it says:
The Preparatory Committee will continue its
work and make its next submission to the
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4063 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Provincial Council on Monday, 4th August.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your understanding, having read the full
minutes and having regard to your own experience as
a member for quite some years of the Provincial Council, as
to whether, ordinarily, people not being members of the
Provincial Council were in attendance at its meetings?
A. People not members of the Provincial Council would not
normally attend meetings, except by invitation for
particular sections of the program of the council.
Q. What is your understanding, from looking at the full
set of the minutes for 19 July, as to whether the members
of the steering committee, apart from Brother Alman, who
was on the Provincial Council - namely, Brothers Elias,
Ildephonsus and Victor - were present for the whole of that
Provincial Council meeting or only for the part concerning
the Provincial Chapter?
A. My understanding from the way it's written here, and
then also from our practice, would be that they would have
only come in at the very end of the council meeting to
discuss this particular item.
Q. We can see that these minutes of 19 July have been
signed at the very end by Brother Othmar and others?
A. Yes.
Q. On your experience, would that indicate that those
minutes were signed as a correct record by those present at
the next meeting after July?
A. That would be the normal practice.
Q. And we can see, can see - could you tell me if this is
right - that they're not signed by any of Elias, Victor or
Ildephonsus?
A. That's right. Those names are not there.
Q. If, indeed, Brother Elias, as well as Victor and
Ildephonsus, only came into that meeting at the end for the
items concerning the Provincial Chapter, ordinarily would
those people have seen the minutes of the whole meeting at
some subsequent time?
A. No.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4064 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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MR GRAY: I ask that those documents be added to the
tender bundle, your Honour.
MS FURNESS:
I tender them, your Honour.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Exhibit 13-41.
EXHIBIT #13-41 MINUTES FOR THE MEETING OF THE PROVINCIAL
COUNCIL OF 14/06/1969 AND 19/07/1969
MR GRAY: Q. Also on page 3653 of the transcript -
I wonder if that could be brought up - at the top of that
page, at about line 5, counsel assisting, then Mr Beckett,
was asking some questions of Brother Alexis Turton, and at
the bottom of the previous stage and on to the top of this
page, he was establishing that Charles Howard took over as
provincial in 1972 and was there from August 1972 to
September 1976. You can see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I'll just ask you to read to yourself the
questions and answers from line 5 through to line 27.
A. Yes.
Q. You can see that Brother Alexis was accepting what was
being put to him as accurate in those last couple of
questions in particular?
A. Yes.
Q. One of the things he accepted was, at line 21:
I wasn't sure that he'd admitted to
Brother Howard, but if it's in the record
there, I accept that.
And counsel assisting said:
Yes, it's in a number of notes that relate
to an interview conducted with
Brother Kostka Chute.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to show you the notes of the interviews
relevant to this topic, which presumably comprise the
record. The first is tender bundle 81. You can see that
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4065 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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this is a document headed "Notes from Meeting at
JE Maconachie Correctional Centre in Canberra on 12 April
2009"?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the bottom of it, which you could see if it was
scrolled that far, it has the initials "HGH", presumably
Howard Harrison?
A. That would be correct.
Q. So these seem to be Mr Harrison's notes from a meeting
with Kostka Chute on 12 April 2009. I want to draw your
attention to some of the things that are contained in this
note. In particular, at the bottom of the first page, the
second-last item, there is a line beginning, "I made
wonderful progress".
A. Yes.
Q.
I made wonderful progress in terms of
understanding my own weaknesses and
problems when I was given the opportunity
to get help at Encompass in 2002.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. It says:
I do believe that it is regrettable that
this type of facility wasn't available to
religious in my situation prior to the
establishment of Encompass.
Then the next item, on the next page, is:
Whilst I may have tried to talk to my
superiors, I don't know how clearly I would
have been articulating my issues and
certainly in terms of generational change,
conversations around this kind of
difficulty were very difficult.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen this document before?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4066 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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A. I have.
Q. Then if I move forward to the third page, after some
particular complaints by particular people have been
mentioned, there is a heading that says, "History of
Seeking Treatment-Help"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that what Brother Kostka apparently said to
Mr Harrison on 12 April was, first:
On a number of occasions, I have raised the
problems that I had in a confessional
situation and was told to pray.
That's the first thing?
A. Yes.
Q. Secondly:
A. Yes.
When I was at Penshurst, I did see an
Oblate priest for some assistance and saw
him on a number of occasions.
Q. Thirdly:
A. Yes.
When I was on sabbatical leave in Fribourg,
I raised the matter with a psychologist and
he made sexual advance to me.
Q. And fourthly:
It wasn't until Brother Alexis confronted
issues with me in 1993 that I made any
disclosure.
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q.
I was removed from high school situations -
and we know that was in December 1993 -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4067 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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and ultimately, following the establishment
of Encompass, I got some serious help from
Encompass in ...
it's written there as "1992", but it should be 2002, as we
understand it?
A. That's correct.
Q. Then on the next page, under the heading "Discussions
with Provincials", Mr Harrison records Kostka Chute as
saying:
Next:
It was never easy for me to talk coherently
or clearly about this issue which troubled
me.
I do recall on one occasion trying to have
a conversation with Brother Weldon who was
in the process of having -
there must be a word missing there -
prior to leaving for a function. I do
remember trying to say something to him but
as to what I did actually articulate or
successfully convey, it is very hard for me
to now know.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then Mr Harrison records Brother Chute saying:
I was trying to say something to him about
the problem but I don't think I made myself
clear.
Then again:
On a number of occasions in a confessional
situation, I raised my behaviour and was
told to pray.
I did see a psychologist who was an Oblate
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4068 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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Father at Penshurst in the 1970s.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. In terms of that first record of what Kostka Chute
said, there is a series of expressions from Kostka Chute as
to his perhaps not having made himself very clear in
whatever he said to his superiors; do you agree?
A. Very much so.
Q. And, in particular, there is his straight-out
statement that:
It wasn't until Brother Alexis confronted
issues with me in 1993 that I made any
disclosure.
A. I accept that.
Q. Then we come to tender bundle 85 --
MS FURNESS: I rise, your Honour. I note the time, and
I note that we have Mr Sutton waiting. I wonder if my
friend can indicate whether he has any questions for
Mr Sutton, so we can send him on his way if he doesn't.
MR GRAY: Your Honour, I have discussed this with
Mr Skinner and, with great respect, it would be
appropriate, I submit, that Mr Skinner state his position
first.
MR SKINNER:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
I'm happy to do so.
Yes.
MR SKINNER: I do not wish to cross-examine Mr Sutton on
behalf of my client at this time.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thanks, Mr Skinner. Mr Gray?
MR GRAY: I'm not sure if anyone else does, your Honour,
either. I don't know whether my friend Mr O'Connell does,
for example.
MS FURNESS:
he does.
Perhaps if Mr Gray can just indicate whether
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4069 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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MR GRAY: This is the position, your Honour, particularly
in the light of what we have just heard from Mr Skinner:
we were given notice, at about 6 o'clock last night, that
Mr Sutton was going to be called. We had no knowledge of
what he was going to say until he said it this morning,
a few hours ago. Some of it, as I said this morning, is
new from the point of view of those instructing me, and
myself.
Other than a short conversation with Brother Alexis
over the lunch break, I and we have had no opportunity to
do any more about taking instructions or making inquiries
about what, if anything, we might want to put to Mr Sutton.
My preference, speaking on behalf of my clients, would
be to reserve my position, for these reasons: firstly, the
reasons that I have just mentioned; secondly, we heard from
counsel assisting this morning that the Commission is
engaging in further inquiries in relation to this matter
and that there is going to be an adjournment while those
inquiries are carried out. We anticipate that one
possibility is that we will be provided, in due course,
with either further documentary material by way of tender
and/or further witness statements or a further witness or
witnesses called to give evidence perhaps bearing upon the
matters that Mr Sutton has given evidence about.
My position is that I am not able at the moment to
embark upon cross-examination of Mr Sutton today, given the
absence of an opportunity to deal with all of those matters
and possibilities. So my request to the Commission is that
we be permitted to reserve our position until whatever
further material is forthcoming.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
that, Ms Furness?
MS FURNESS:
No.
Do you want to say anything about
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Mr O'Connell, do you want to join
in and say anything about whether or not you want to ask
any questions of Mr Sutton?
MR O'CONNELL: I did intend to ask just a few questions of
Mr Sutton. I'm happy to do that at a later time.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4070 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
want to say?
Mr Walsh, is there anything you
MR WALSH: I would just like to say this: Mr Sutton is
very anxious to conclude his evidence. He feels under a
somewhat stressful situation and his wife, at the moment,
needs to be able to get to where they live by 7 o'clock
tonight so she can access her medication. She has had
problems with carcinoma. He is very anxious. He thought
that the proceedings, so far as he was concerned, would
conclude today, so he is very anxious to conclude his
evidence, if he could, today.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: So that being so, Ms Furness, and
with nothing further to add, Mr Sutton could be released
today, not excused, and recalled when this hearing resumes?
MS FURNESS:
Yes, your Honour.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes. Are you able to go and convey
that to your client, Mr Walsh?
MR WALSH:
I will.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
MR GRAY:
Yes, Mr Gray.
Thank you, your Honour.
Q. Brother Crowe, I was just bringing you to tender
bundle tab 85. The material at this tab consists of
a letter from Monahan + Rowell to Carroll & O'Dea of 6 May
2009, and you will see in the second paragraph Mr Monahan
says:
As promised, I now attach copies of the
notes which Joe Bucci and I have prepared,
based on ...
their handwritten notes. He is referring to an interview
with Brother Kostka Chute in Canberra on "Thursday of last
week", which, it becomes apparent in a minute, was
30 April. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. So there are two sets of notes attached to that
letter. The first of them, it seems reasonably clear, is
Mr Joe Bucci's note. If we scroll a couple of pages on, do
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4071 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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you see that's the first one, headed "Interview with John
William Chute also known as 'Kostka Chute'"?
A. Yes.
Q. Dated Thursday, 30 April?
A. Yes.
Q. Present: Mr Harrison, Mr Monahan, Mr Bucci and
obviously Kostka Chute. Mr Bucci refers to him as "Koz"
throughout. The parts that I want to show you in
particular are at page 5 of that document. If we scroll
down to about two-thirds of the way down the page --
MR WALSH: Your Honour, do you mind if I am excused at
this stage so I can speak with Mr Sutton and his wife?
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
MR WALSH:
Thank you.
I will excuse you, Mr Walsh.
MR GRAY: Q. The page that I'm looking for is one which
has, at the very top of the page, the first line, "Howard
also asked about Quentin Duffy". On that page, if we could
scroll down about two-thirds of the way, do you see there
is a paragraph beginning:
A. Yes.
Koz stated that he had never mentioned any
of these incidents to Alman Dwyer ... The
only provincials that he had mentioned it
to were Brother Quentin Duffy ... Othmar
Weldon ... and ... Brother Charles
Howard ...
Q. And as to Charles Howard, Mr Bucci records:
In relation to Brother Charles Howard he
spoke to me -
that is, Charles Howard spoke to Kostka -
about a complaint that I had touched
a child. He -
presumably Charles Howard -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4072 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
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counselled me about it, later on he sent me
to Fribourg about 1976, 1977 ...
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then in the next paragraph, we have:
A. Yes.
Koz also stated that he went to a doctor,
psychiatrist around 1969-1972 in the
Mortdale area.
Q. Then in the next paragraph, what appears is:
The Marists were aware at the time that he
was seeing the oblate
priest...Brother Charles Howard was fully
aware of what had occurred, he told him
what exactly had happened what he had done.
He stated that he notified him that there
was a problem and he was trying to get
help.
Do you see all that?
A. Yes.
Q. As we can see, the complaint mentioned is touching
a child, and in the paragraph that I just took you to,
beginning "The Marists", there seem to be a series of
propositions, perhaps not all consistent with each other:
first of all, the Marists were aware of something;
secondly, Brother Howard was aware of something; thirdly
that "he" - presumably Kostka - told "him" - presumably
Charles Howard - what exactly had happened, what he had
done; and, lastly, perhaps differently, perhaps not, "He
stated that he notified him that there was a problem and he
was trying to get help". Do you see all that?
A. Yes.
Q. So that's the second note recording something of what
Brother Kostka said while in gaol in 2009, and then,
thirdly, there is Mr Monahan's note, which is the next one
in this tab. If we scroll a couple of pages on, we'll find
that. Do you see that's the one with the heading that you
can see on the screen now?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4073 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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A. Yes.
Q. Referring to the same date and with the same people
present, but this is, as I understand it, Mr Monahan's
note. If we could scroll to page 5, paragraph 35 of this
document, Mr Monahan records Kostka Chute saying:
I have never spoken about these issues to
Br Alman Dwyer ... I did speak to
Br Charles Howard ... I spoke to him about
a complaint against me that I had touched
a child.
He says that that complaint arose from his time at
Penshurst. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what Mr Monahan records Kostka Chute as saying
is:
I think that the Superior (Br Simon Murphy)
may have told Br Charles Howard about it.
Do you see that's the first point that is being made?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the next sentence is:
The parents complained to the Superior.
Alternatively, I might have told Br Charles
Howard about it ...
Do you see that next one?
A. Yes.
Q. The next sentence:
One way or another, he -
presumably Charles Howard -
knew about the complaint and I spoke to him
about it and admitted my behaviour.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4074 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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Q. So that again may be saying the same thing as what is
in the previous sentence or may not; would you agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Paragraph 35 goes on:
He -
presumably Charles Howard -
counselled me about it. Later I was sent
overseas to [Fribourg] in 1975 to 1976.
Here was my great chance to get something
done about my problem.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. It reads presumably as though Kostka Chute is linking
his being sent to Fribourg with whatever it was that he had
spoken to Charles Howard about?
A. Yes.
Q. Then in paragraph 37, he says that in Fribourg he did
his second novitiate. He says:
There were twelve of us there from around
the world. I thought: this is my chance.
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, I rise to my feet. My friend is
reading this somewhat lengthy document and seeking the
witness, who is not its author, to agree to presumptions he
is making about the document. This is not helpful to the
Royal Commission.
MR GRAY:
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
I will shorten it, your Honour.
Where is it going, Mr Gray?
MR GRAY: It's going to the record, in response to what
was put to Brother Turton about what the record consisted
of, at page 3653, and this is the third of four documents.
The fourth is the interview with Brother Charles Howard.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes, but there is no suggestion
that Brother Crowe was there. Brother Crowe is effectively
interpreting a document, isn't he?
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4075 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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MR GRAY: As Brother Alexis was being asked to do, without
having been shown the documents.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
MR GRAY:
Of course.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
the document.
Well, we can read the document.
And you can make submissions about
MR GRAY: Of course, indeed. I can speed up.
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, if I can be heard again, none of
these matters, as I understand it, were put to
Brother Turton, who gave evidence about it. He would have
been, one would have thought, an appropriate witness, if
that were the case. Secondly, submissions can be made
about how your Honour and the Commissioners should
interpret this document. It is not necessary for lengthy
oral evidence.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: That's what I have just suggested
to Mr Gray, that this is a matter for submissions. I am
assuming that what you are going to say, Mr Gray, is that
since Brother Turton gave that evidence, you have had
a closer look at this material and want to draw it to our
attention.
MR GRAY: That's certainly one of the things I want to
say, your Honour, yes. But I hear what has been said and
I will move rapidly to the end point.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Thank you.
MR GRAY: Q. I will lastly draw your attention in this
one to paragraph 39. Do you see that in that paragraph,
what we have is, four lines from the bottom:
Br Charles Howard would have known for
sure.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q.
I am pretty sure I would have told him.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4076 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I'll pass over that document and move to the last
one, which is tab 87. This is the interview with
Charles Howard. Have you seen this before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. If I can short-circuit it, are you aware that in that
interview, Brother Howard said that he did not recall
Brother Kostka mentioning these things to him at all?
A. I do.
Q. A question was ultimately put to Brother Alexis to the
effect that if the provincial, namely Charles Howard, in
1976 had known two things - namely, what was mentioned in
the 1969 Provincial Council minute, and, secondly, that
Kostka Chute had actually admitted to Charles Howard to
some form of sexual abuse - then he should not have
appointed Kostka Chute to Marist College Canberra?
A. I remember that.
Q. If in fact Charles Howard did not have either of those
pieces of knowledge --
MS FURNESS: I object, your Honour. I object to this
witness being used to deal with evidence that
Brother Turton gave.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER:
Yes.
MR GRAY: Your Honour, I am getting the evidence from this
witness, who is the current provincial, regardless of what
Brother Turton said about it.
MS FURNESS: If that is the case, your Honour, the
question should be put straight, not in relation to what
Brother Turton said or didn't say.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Yes, I was just having a look back
at the transcript. To make it clear to Brother Crowe that
you are not asking him to comment on Brother Turton's
evidence or what he said.
MR GRAY:
I'm happy to make that clear.
.1/07/2014 (ACT36) ACT4077 J J CROWE (Mr O'Connell)
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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Q. This question is simply put to you now, Brother Crowe,
simply in these terms: if, in fact, Charles Howard did not
know, as at 1976, one, what had happened at the 1969
Provincial Council meeting about Brother Kostka; and, two,
that Kostka had admitted to some form of sexual abuse to do
with Penshurst, would there have been any problem, so far
as you are aware, in his, as provincial, appointing
Kostka Chute to Canberra?
A. No.
MR GRAY: If your Honour would pardon me a minute, I think
I have completed what I wanted to ask. Yes, those are my
questions.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you, Mr Gray. Is there any
re-examination?
MS FURNESS:

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Q. Secondly, you were the vice-provincial to
Brother Turton --
A. Yes.
Q. -- for a period of time between I think you said 1992
and 1993?
A. 1992 and August 1993, yes.
Q. During that time, did Brother Turton discuss with you
or in your presence anything to do with former
Brother Sutton?
A. I can't remember. Honestly I can't remember. I think
that there may have been something there when his final
dispensation came through.
Q. That was in 1991, I think, wasn't it?
A. I think he applied in 1991. I think it came through
in 1992.
Q. Thank you. Was there anything said about the warrants
that issued?
A. No, I have no memory of that at all.
MS FURNESS: Thank you. Nothing further.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you, Brother Crowe. You are
excused.
THE WITNESS: Could I make one statement, please,
your Honour, to the victims, just a very short statement to
the victims?
MS FURNESS: Your Honour, this has arisen before, and on
each occasion the Royal Commission has not permitted
a witness to make a statement, either an opening or
a closing statement, but to answer questions.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: That's the answer, Brother Crowe.
It is a fraught process, and I think from the Commission's
point of view consistency is the appropriate way to go.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you. I will otherwise excuse
you, Brother Crowe.

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MS FURNESS: Now what remains, your Honour, is to adjourn
to a date to be fixed, and there will be discussions with
the relevant parties with leave as to when that date will
be.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: So the parties will be notified of
the resumption date, and the date will otherwise be
published on the website for those following the
proceedings.
MS FURNESS: I suspect there might be a process of
negotiation rather than merely informing, but certainly
a date will be arrived at and published.
THE PRESIDING MEMBER: Thank you. We will otherwise
adjourn.
AT 3.42PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED
TO A DATE TO BE FIXED
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT4080
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

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#13-39 [1] - 4055:4
#13-40 [1] - 4056:13
#13-41 [1] - 4065:8
$
$1.361 [1] - 4021:16
$100,000 [1] - 4024:23
$105,000 [1] - 4018:22
$126,521 [1] - 4020:27
$190,000 [2] -
4017:38, 4018:2
$200,000 [1] - 4024:24
$238,728 [1] - 4020:37
$25,000 [5] - 4018:18,
4023:8, 4024:24,
4027:28, 4027:29
$251,000 [1] - 4021:21
$26,500 [1] - 4019:40
$30,000 [2] - 4023:8,
4024:24
$300,000 [1] - 4042:32
$35,000 [1] - 4017:31
$40,000 [1] - 4027:29
$70,000 [1] - 4027:16
$78 [1] - 4020:32
'Kostka [1] - 4072:2
'play [1] - 4050:22
'
0
000 [1] - 4020:32
1
1 [10] - 3975:27,
4017:20, 4019:17,
4019:35, 4020:12,
4046:18, 4053:7,
4053:17, 4053:45,
4054:2
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4063:4
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10am [1] - 3975:27
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12 [6] - 3976:46,
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13-40 [1] - 4056:11
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14/06/1969 [1] -
4065:9
15 [4] - 3976:21,
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1940s [1] - 4008:23
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4061:12, 4061:16,
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4062:44, 4077:18,
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1969-1972 [1] -
4073:10
1970 [15] - 4021:28,
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1970s [3] - 3977:21,
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1976 [6] - 3977:10,
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4075:12, 4077:17,
4078:3
1977 [1] - 4073:2
1978 [1] - 3977:35
1980 [2] - 3977:47,
3978:8
1981 [1] - 4038:33
1983 [1] - 3978:11
1984 [3] - 3998:11,
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1985 [1] - 3978:23
1986 [7] - 3979:2,
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1987 [4] - 3979:47,
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3989:43
1989 [13] - 3981:10,
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3993:20, 3993:22,
3993:23, 4001:16,
4001:24, 4007:32,
4007:35, 4009:1
1990 [2] - 3993:6,
3993:24
1991 [5] - 3993:40,
4035:3, 4079:16,
4079:17
1992 [12] - 3993:18,
3993:20, 3994:10,
3994:11, 4009:5,
4009:11, 4068:6,
4079:5, 4079:7,
4079:18
1993 [8] - 4009:30,
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4067:38, 4067:47,
4069:16, 4079:6,
4079:7
1994 [4] - 4055:16,
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4056:4
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1996 [4] - 3976:22,
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3999:39
1997 [4] - 3976:35,
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4053:25
1999 [1] - 3976:39
2
2 [7] - 3976:25,
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4018:30, 4019:34,
4061:31
20 [1] - 3981:3
2000 [1] - 3976:44
2001 [1] - 4053:13
2002 [5] - 4053:17,
4053:45, 4054:2,
4066:23, 4068:6
2005 [1] - 4053:47
2006 [1] - 4053:47
2007 [4] - 4032:41,
4053:17, 4053:24,
4054:3
2008 [18] - 3977:2,
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4011:15, 4012:16,
4012:25, 4025:4,
4033:21, 4035:26,
4042:45, 4048:47,
4051:9, 4051:12,
4051:23, 4051:46,
4052:2, 4055:37,
4056:14
2009 [9] - 3976:32,
4013:11, 4039:43,
4046:18, 4056:21,
4066:3, 4066:12,
4071:32, 4073:43
2013 [2] - 4016:47,
4017:2
2014 [1] - 3975:27
21 [4] - 4018:9,
4042:45, 4048:47,
4065:30
22 [2] - 3998:42,
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227 [4] - 4013:10,
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23 [2] - 4052:37,
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238,700-odd [1] -
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26,000-odd [1] -
4019:43
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3
3 [4] - 4013:27,
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4063:29
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30 [2] - 4071:42,
4072:5
31 [2] - 4053:17,
4054:3
31-year [1] - 4029:11
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35 [5] - 4017:34,
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4074:5, 4075:5
36 [1] - 4059:3
3653 [4] - 4060:42,
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44 [1] - 4061:9
46 [1] - 4010:13
47 [1] - 4057:13
48 [3] - 4017:21,
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4th [1] - 4064:1
5
5 [7] - 4004:22,
4056:34, 4063:44,
4065:13, 4065:22,
4072:11, 4074:5
50/50 [3] - 4014:33,
4014:38, 4014:42
52 [1] - 4060:9
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6
6 [10] - 4005:40,
4016:47, 4017:2,
4017:9, 4017:10,
4017:12, 4017:15,
4056:45, 4070:4,
4071:31
6.8 [1] - 4018:6
60 [1] - 3981:3
64 [2] - 4041:25,
4048:41
67 [1] - 3976:25
7
7 [4] - 3976:35,
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AAB [1] - 4018:31
AAJ [2] - 4018:31,
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AAP [3] - 4028:38,
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AAP] [2] - 4034:46,
4054:9
Aaron [2] - 4001:10,
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AAY] [1] - 4019:5
able [19] - 3981:47,
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4011:2, 4029:1,
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absent [2] - 4005:6,
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ABUSE [1] - 3975:13
abuse [11] - 4007:8,
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abused [1] - 3983:25
ACB [1] - 4018:38
accept [8] - 4012:9,
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4069:19
accepted [5] -
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accepting [2] -
4014:46, 4065:25
access [2] - 4031:27,
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accommodated [1] -
4040:20
accommodation [4] -
3988:39, 4024:40,
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according [1] -
4053:12
accordingly [1] -
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accountability [1] -
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4004:1
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4000:4, 4037:19,
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4013:33, 4036:20
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ACT [1] - 4052:4
ACT36 [1] - 3975:18
acted [1] - 4013:15
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4078:25, 4078:31
actions [1] - 4045:47
active [1] - 4031:26
actively [3] - 3997:31,
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activities [4] - 3985:4,
3985:6, 4029:16,
4032:16
actual [3] - 4054:18,
4054:19, 4060:18
acutely [1] - 4058:42
ADD [6] - 4019:17,
4019:22, 4019:27,
4020:2, 4020:7
add [4] - 4029:46,
4056:40, 4059:42,
4071:15
ADD] [1] - 4019:29
added [5] - 4054:20,
4054:37, 4055:43,
4056:6, 4065:1
addition [3] - 4020:15,
4020:18, 4055:36
additional [5] -
4036:3, 4039:37,
4044:20, 4058:3,
4063:22
address [1] - 4013:33
addressed [2] -
4023:12, 4046:15
adequate [1] -
4039:27
adjourn [2] - 4080:2,
4080:17
adjournment [5] -
4002:44, 4003:41,
4005:9, 4038:14,
4070:21
ADM [10] - 3998:6,
3998:10, 3998:15,
3998:41, 3999:2,
3999:19, 3999:40,
4000:7, 4000:27,
4000:36
administration [2] -
4007:33, 4063:24
administrative [3] -
3980:35, 3996:44,
3997:38
admission [3] -
4001:35, 4061:13,
4061:15
admissions [4] -
3997:7, 4001:17,
4016:8, 4061:11
admit [2] - 4035:1,
4035:7
admitted [10] -
4001:27, 4033:46,
4034:24, 4035:4,
4054:14, 4054:15,
4065:32, 4074:43,
4077:19, 4078:5
ADO [5] - 3983:9,
3984:11, 3984:13,
4001:23, 4001:40
ADO] [2] - 3987:41,
4001:18
ADO]'s [6] - 3983:9,
3986:31, 3986:36,
3986:47, 3987:14,
3987:27
ADQ [6] - 3998:10,
3998:16, 3999:23,
3999:40, 4000:7,
4000:37
ADQ] [2] - 3998:7,
4000:28
adult [6] - 3979:24,
3979:36, 3979:40,
3979:43, 3999:11,
4009:36
adults [6] - 3979:43,
3997:14, 4009:39,
4009:40, 4053:27,
4053:28
advance [1] - 4067:31
Advanced [1] -
3981:20
advice [14] - 3995:21,
3996:3, 3996:4,
3996:6, 3996:7,
3996:9, 3996:12,
4011:8, 4011:10,
4011:14, 4014:31,
4014:43, 4014:46,
4044:36
advise [1] - 3995:35
advised [1] - 4023:8
advising [1] - 4013:42
advisory [2] -
4024:10, 4024:12
affected [2] - 4040:46,
4058:12
age [1] - 4031:24
agent [1] - 4012:6
ages [1] - 3981:1
ago [8] - 4000:18,
4000:24, 4000:26,
4000:44, 4024:46,
4050:25, 4054:45,
4070:7
agree [14] - 4015:3,
4015:21, 4029:17,
4030:37, 4030:40,
4037:43, 4043:45,
4045:28, 4046:46,
4047:5, 4060:5,
4069:9, 4075:2,
4075:32
ahead [1] - 4053:35
aid [1] - 4027:47
airline [2] - 3988:18,
3988:21
airport [2] - 3990:27,
3990:30
Alexis [22] - 3983:38,
3984:8, 3991:7,
3995:39, 4005:34,
4006:1, 4006:3,
4006:29, 4010:18,
4043:8, 4046:18,
4052:43, 4053:2,
4060:39, 4060:42,
4065:14, 4065:25,
4067:37, 4069:15,
4070:11, 4076:2,
4077:15
alienation [1] -
4038:44
alive [1] - 4058:11
allegation [2] -
4019:9, 4061:22
allegations [2] -
4026:9
alleged [3] - 4035:3,
4054:14, 4058:46
allow [2] - 4004:11,
4021:32
allowed [2] - 3976:39,
3991:32
Alman [9] - 3978:40,
3980:6, 3981:39,
4062:6, 4063:12,
4063:36, 4064:17,
4072:28, 4074:9
alone [1] - 4042:39
alternatively [1] -
4074:30
ambivalent [4] -
4010:36, 4041:7,
4043:28, 4043:47
amount [6] - 4020:30,
4025:46, 4027:5,
4027:12, 4027:31,
4048:43
amounted [2] -
4020:27, 4021:7
amounts [2] - 4010:6,
4026:40
Amy [1] - 3998:6
AND [2] - 4055:4,
4065:9
Andrew [1] - 3975:35
Ann [1] - 3975:33
Anselm [1] - 4063:11
answer [12] - 3983:16,
4015:32, 4021:40,
4030:34, 4031:1,
4036:28, 4037:14,
4043:35, 4043:37,
4061:16, 4079:36,
4079:38
answered [2] -
4007:8, 4045:41
answering [1] -
4007:14
answers [2] - 4030:4,
4065:22
anticipate [2] -
4003:31, 4070:22
anticipated [1] -
4005:42
anxious [4] - 4051:27,
4071:5, 4071:9,
4071:11
anyway [2] - 4008:46,
4031:27
AO [1] - 3975:34
apart [2] - 4030:20,
4064:17
APM [1] - 3975:34
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT2
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

apologise [1] -
4004:35
apology [9] - 3999:39,
3999:42, 3999:44,
4000:23, 4000:27,
4000:31, 4000:33,
4000:38, 4000:43
apparent [3] -
4005:33, 4060:29,
4071:41
Appeal [3] - 3976:35,
3976:41, 3976:44
appeal [3] - 3976:36,
3976:39, 4035:38
appear [7] - 3998:6,
4028:33, 4028:38,
4038:23, 4038:37,
4048:35, 4048:37
appeared [2] - 4040:2,
4040:7
appearing [1] -
4000:26
applicants [1] -
4035:36
applications [2] -
4035:42, 4035:44
applied [4] - 3978:20,
3980:39, 3997:17,
4079:17
apply [1] - 3977:44
appointed [2] -
4009:35, 4077:21
appointing [1] -
4078:7
appointment [3] -
3977:6, 4061:14
appointments [2] -
3977:23, 4009:34
approach [8] -
3999:18, 3999:22,
4000:25, 4021:24,
4021:26, 4026:28,
4050:9, 4050:17
approaching [1] -
4037:35
appropriate [12] -
3979:40, 4010:38,
4010:43, 4011:3,
4022:11, 4022:28,
4033:2, 4049:23,
4049:29, 4069:30,
4076:17, 4079:40
appropriately [1] -
4032:22
approved [1] -
4000:46
April [8] - 3976:21,
3977:2, 3979:46,
4066:2, 4066:12,
4067:10, 4071:42,
4072:5
Archdiocese [2] -
4024:44, 4035:19
archdiocese [1] -
4026:35
area [4] - 4036:16,
4041:5, 4045:36,
4073:11
arena [4] - 4012:1,
4046:42, 4047:20,
4047:28
argument [1] -
4024:15
arisen [1] - 4079:33
arose [3] - 4000:33,
4036:15, 4074:14
arrangement [6] -
3988:32, 4013:5,
4013:6, 4014:8,
4039:31, 4057:39
arrangements [3] -
3990:27, 3990:30,
3990:34
arrest [3] - 3996:30,
3997:38, 3997:39
arrested [4] - 3976:20,
3996:26, 3997:27,
3997:30
arrive [1] - 4058:17
arrived [3] - 3991:16,
4025:4, 4080:14
arriving [2] - 4032:24,
4063:3
articulate [1] -
4068:28
articulating [1] -
4066:39
AS [1] - 4055:5
aside [2] - 3986:13,
4010:30
aspect [1] - 4044:42
assault [4] - 4016:11,
4019:43, 4029:33,
4029:34
assaulted [4] -
4019:36, 4028:34,
4028:38, 4038:33
assaulting [1] -
4030:32
assessment [33] -
3981:36, 3981:38,
3981:41, 3981:45,
3982:1, 3982:6,
3982:9, 3982:13,
3982:19, 3982:29,
3982:47, 3983:1,
3988:14, 3988:17,
3988:27, 3988:40,
3988:42, 3989:37,
3989:39, 3989:41,
3989:43, 3989:44,
3990:5, 3990:6,
3990:10, 3990:13,
3991:38, 3992:10,
3993:12, 3993:13,
4002:13, 4002:17,
4036:35
assessments [3] -
3982:3, 3990:20,
4026:36
assets [1] - 4039:10
assist [4] - 4003:9,
4018:39, 4019:31,
4055:23
assistance [7] -
4039:16, 4039:18,
4039:40, 4049:15,
4049:21, 4050:15,
4067:22
Assisting [1] -
3975:41
assisting [10] -
4001:12, 4005:5,
4034:5, 4035:35,
4054:21, 4056:17,
4062:36, 4065:13,
4065:36, 4070:19
associated [3] -
4026:19, 4032:16,
4058:38
assume [2] - 4046:18,
4061:10
assuming [2] -
4040:32, 4076:25
assumption [1] -
4050:14
AT [1] - 4080:19
Atkinson [1] - 3975:34
attach [1] - 4071:35
attached [1] - 4071:45
attempt [1] - 4031:22
attempted [1] - 4046:2
attempts [1] - 4058:20
attend [4] - 3979:27,
3979:32, 3984:35,
4064:12
attendance [2] -
4045:19, 4064:10
Attendance [1] -
4061:43
attended [2] -
3998:10, 4032:32
attending [3] -
3979:28, 3981:38,
3983:1
attention [4] - 4058:3,
4066:13, 4076:28,
4076:36
attitude [3] - 4029:20,
4043:46, 4051:18
attributable [1] -
4022:33
Auckland [1] -
3979:19
August [12] - 3976:21,
3976:25, 3983:4,
3983:45, 3992:16,
3992:25, 3996:26,
4001:16, 4001:24,
4064:1, 4065:17,
4079:7
Australia [10] -
3976:21, 3983:4,
3983:7, 3983:45,
3991:2, 3993:23,
3997:26, 4002:32,
4039:22, 4053:3
Australians [2] -
4039:30, 4039:40
author [1] - 4075:32
available [9] -
4010:42, 4010:43,
4022:1, 4036:36,
4039:40, 4047:34,
4057:1, 4063:4,
4066:31
avenues [3] - 4010:41,
4022:1, 4030:12
average [6] - 4017:31,
4017:38, 4017:42,
4018:1, 4018:22,
4031:24
aware [49] - 3982:3,
3994:20, 3994:22,
3995:46, 4000:7,
4000:11, 4000:14,
4000:18, 4000:28,
4000:29, 4009:20,
4009:35, 4010:26,
4012:20, 4021:17,
4021:19, 4021:22,
4024:44, 4025:2,
4025:8, 4025:24,
4025:28, 4025:32,
4026:11, 4026:27,
4026:45, 4027:4,
4032:31, 4034:22,
4034:24, 4034:30,
4035:46, 4040:47,
4041:11, 4044:3,
4044:15, 4044:23,
4044:30, 4044:31,
4055:40, 4057:30,
4061:11, 4061:21,
4073:17, 4073:20,
4073:33, 4073:34,
4077:10, 4078:7
awareness [1] -
4009:25
B
background [1] -
4048:42
BAKER [5] - 3998:1,
3998:3, 3998:5,
4001:2, 4028:26
Baker [1] - 3998:6
Bar [2] - 4005:13,
4026:45
barrister [3] - 4047:46,
4048:11, 4059:33
based [7] - 3988:29,
4007:8, 4007:47,
4009:1, 4045:5,
4047:33, 4071:37
basis [6] - 4014:38,
4014:42, 4015:27,
4022:9, 4047:40,
4048:24
BE [1] - 4080:20
bearing [1] - 4070:26
became [4] - 3981:13,
4007:33, 4025:8,
4053:47
Beckett [1] - 4065:13
become [3] - 4000:14,
4025:2, 4057:30
becomes [1] - 4071:41
beg [3] - 3979:15,
3992:3, 3992:28
began [4] - 3977:47,
3978:11, 3978:23,
4051:17
beginning [7] -
3994:10, 3994:11,
4012:4, 4050:32,
4066:15, 4072:25,
4073:31
begins [1] - 4046:29
begun [1] - 4003:10
behalf [9] - 4000:27,
4010:2, 4012:38,
4033:47, 4040:38,
4040:39, 4057:10,
4069:38, 4070:16
behaving [2] -
4013:32, 4056:30
behaviour [6] -
4001:18, 4036:31,
4036:38, 4037:5,
4068:44, 4074:43
behaviours [1] -
4037:25
benefit [1] - 4017:34
best [2] - 3987:46,
3992:15
better [3] - 4003:28,
4052:11, 4053:32
between [17] -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT3
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

3982:36, 3983:28,
3984:13, 3987:27,
3992:11, 4010:14,
4014:37, 4025:24,
4027:29, 4029:18,
4032:21, 4035:2,
4037:34, 4055:39,
4060:19, 4060:28,
4079:5
beyond [3] - 4017:3,
4027:12, 4027:20
big [1] - 4027:7
biggest [2] - 4029:16,
4029:17
bit [3] - 4005:44,
4010:22, 4050:31
blind [1] - 4037:39
block [2] - 4056:3,
4063:25
blunt [1] - 4059:21
boarded [2] - 3990:40,
3990:41
body [8] - 4001:25,
4001:34, 4026:15,
4026:19, 4033:1,
4035:16, 4035:23,
4035:30
borne [1] - 4058:22
bottom [10] - 4041:33,
4041:36, 4041:39,
4041:43, 4063:21,
4063:29, 4065:15,
4066:6, 4066:14,
4076:38
box [4] - 4006:26,
4006:27, 4006:35,
4059:24
boy [1] - 4028:34
boys [1] - 4013:33
Br [13] - 4062:5,
4062:6, 4062:13,
4062:14, 4074:9,
4074:10, 4074:21,
4074:22, 4074:30,
4076:40
brand [1] - 4005:45
break [4] - 4003:6,
4004:11, 4004:22,
4070:12
bring [1] - 4047:2
bringing [1] - 4071:29
broad [1] - 4025:29
broadly [2] - 4024:37,
4026:20
brochure [1] - 3986:21
Brother [199] - 3980:6,
3983:8, 3983:38,
3984:12, 3985:23,
3985:25, 3988:25,
3989:3, 3989:8,
3990:1, 3990:25,
3992:9, 3992:42,
3992:46, 3993:35,
3994:2, 3994:20,
3994:47, 3995:4,
3996:3, 3996:31,
3997:22, 3997:26,
3999:16, 3999:18,
3999:26, 4001:16,
4001:23, 4001:34,
4001:40, 4001:43,
4003:9, 4003:18,
4003:32, 4003:33,
4003:41, 4003:47,
4005:6, 4005:14,
4005:29, 4005:34,
4006:1, 4006:3,
4006:5, 4006:8,
4006:21, 4006:28,
4006:29, 4006:39,
4006:47, 4008:18,
4008:22, 4008:25,
4009:20, 4009:29,
4010:18, 4011:24,
4011:28, 4011:29,
4013:32, 4013:38,
4013:44, 4014:1,
4014:5, 4014:14,
4014:33, 4015:14,
4015:16, 4016:4,
4016:5, 4016:28,
4016:46, 4016:47,
4020:25, 4020:30,
4020:36, 4020:37,
4021:15, 4023:42,
4028:32, 4028:46,
4028:47, 4029:17,
4029:45, 4030:4,
4032:11, 4032:13,
4033:7, 4033:8,
4033:40, 4036:42,
4037:42, 4038:19,
4038:25, 4038:33,
4038:38, 4043:39,
4046:23, 4047:1,
4047:45, 4048:3,
4048:34, 4051:8,
4052:30, 4052:43,
4053:2, 4053:6,
4053:8, 4053:22,
4054:18, 4054:27,
4054:31, 4055:10,
4055:11, 4055:42,
4056:19, 4056:28,
4056:35, 4056:41,
4057:7, 4057:23,
4058:11, 4058:21,
4058:30, 4058:44,
4058:45, 4060:4,
4060:16, 4060:28,
4060:29, 4060:39,
4060:42, 4061:9,
4061:10, 4061:17,
4061:33, 4061:39,
4061:45, 4062:18,
4062:19, 4062:34,
4062:38, 4062:40,
4062:45, 4063:11,
4063:12, 4063:20,
4064:17, 4064:28,
4064:41, 4065:14,
4065:25, 4065:33,
4065:40, 4067:9,
4067:37, 4068:21,
4068:35, 4069:15,
4070:11, 4071:29,
4071:40, 4072:30,
4072:31, 4072:38,
4073:34, 4073:43,
4075:41, 4075:43,
4075:46, 4076:2,
4076:16, 4076:26,
4077:11, 4077:12,
4077:15, 4077:29,
4077:35, 4077:39,
4077:42, 4077:43,
4078:1, 4078:4,
4078:22, 4078:26,
4078:32, 4079:2,
4079:9, 4079:11,
4079:26, 4079:38,
4079:45
brother [15] - 4012:26,
4024:22, 4025:28,
4027:35, 4028:1,
4029:21, 4031:33,
4031:34, 4031:36,
4032:15, 4036:21,
4038:43, 4039:11,
4063:3
Brother" [1] - 4032:15
brothers [26] -
3979:28, 3988:36,
3990:46, 3991:13,
3991:34, 3991:40,
3993:11, 3993:32,
4007:7, 4008:45,
4009:7, 4009:45,
4019:17, 4019:34,
4019:36, 4029:19,
4030:5, 4030:18,
4030:33, 4031:24,
4032:17, 4037:34,
4037:36, 4037:38,
4053:28, 4053:37
Brothers [32] -
3977:36, 3989:33,
3990:17, 4003:16,
4009:44, 4010:15,
4014:19, 4014:36,
4014:38, 4014:47,
4015:21, 4016:17,
4016:30, 4020:42,
4025:35, 4027:19,
4029:11, 4030:43,
4035:11, 4035:14,
4035:18, 4035:23,
4035:29, 4047:3,
4047:46, 4048:35,
4052:26, 4052:32,
4059:33, 4060:11,
4060:14, 4064:18
BROTHERS [1] -
4016:42
brothers' [2] - 4013:4,
4031:13
brought [4] - 3998:41,
4053:7, 4054:9,
4065:12
Brs [1] - 4063:36
Bucci [5] - 4059:45,
4071:36, 4072:8,
4072:9, 4072:36
Bucci's [1] - 4071:47
building [1] - 4063:23
bullet [3] - 4060:12,
4060:27, 4060:32
bundle [11] - 4053:7,
4054:20, 4054:37,
4056:7, 4056:18,
4056:19, 4061:31,
4065:2, 4065:47,
4069:21, 4071:30
bundles [4] - 4010:35,
4030:17, 4043:29,
4051:28
BY [10] - 3976:14,
3998:3, 4001:4,
4006:45, 4028:30,
4036:18, 4038:29,
4048:32, 4056:13,
4078:20
C
calculation [2] -
4022:34, 4024:32
CALLING [1] -
4056:14
Campbelltown [7] -
3984:19, 3985:4,
3985:6, 3985:7,
3985:14, 3985:35,
3987:13
Canada [2] - 3988:27,
3988:43
Canberra [17] -
3978:1, 4018:27,
4021:1, 4028:40,
4030:20, 4030:37,
4030:44, 4031:14,
4031:16, 4038:34,
4052:21, 4060:39,
4061:15, 4066:2,
4071:40, 4077:21,
4078:8
cannabis [1] -
4047:36
cannot [1] - 4034:27
canonical [4] -
4009:22, 4060:47,
4061:12, 4061:20
cap [1] - 4027:11
capacity [6] - 4026:8,
4039:12, 4053:29,
4057:11, 4058:34,
4059:6
capped [1] - 4027:3
carcinoma [1] -
4071:9
care [7] - 3991:33,
4010:38, 4032:19,
4032:21, 4038:47,
4039:3
careful [1] - 3999:3
carefully [1] - 4043:12
carpet [1] - 4047:4
carried [4] - 3982:6,
4055:15, 4055:25,
4070:22
Carroll [8] - 4020:26,
4020:31, 4033:26,
4033:31, 4043:2,
4060:10, 4060:27,
4071:31
carry [2] - 4026:36,
4026:39
Carthage's [1] -
3978:23
Case [1] - 3975:17
case [38] - 3978:20,
4001:22, 4002:45,
4003:25, 4003:39,
4003:43, 4005:44,
4008:2, 4008:9,
4008:43, 4009:6,
4014:45, 4018:38,
4019:27, 4020:7,
4020:25, 4022:8,
4022:9, 4023:25,
4024:1, 4024:4,
4027:19, 4030:8,
4033:3, 4035:19,
4036:9, 4036:24,
4036:41, 4036:43,
4037:42, 4039:31,
4044:13, 4045:32,
4076:18, 4077:37,
4078:46
case-by-case [1] -
4022:9
cases [7] - 4007:43,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT4
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4012:37, 4016:4,
4016:8, 4023:10,
4024:27, 4027:5
cast [1] - 3998:15
catch [1] - 4078:27
Catholic [15] -
3980:25, 3980:39,
4003:15, 4010:4,
4015:24, 4021:10,
4022:5, 4025:29,
4026:19, 4026:22,
4026:23, 4026:44,
4035:21, 4043:5,
4045:33
caused [2] - 4025:10,
4037:3
cc [1] - 4046:15
CCI [31] - 4010:10,
4010:14, 4011:18,
4013:3, 4013:5,
4013:11, 4013:15,
4014:8, 4014:31,
4014:38, 4014:42,
4015:30, 4016:30,
4021:15, 4021:19,
4034:7, 4034:11,
4043:22, 4049:15,
4050:8, 4050:15,
4050:16, 4050:17,
4051:40, 4056:24,
4056:34, 4057:19,
4057:36, 4058:1,
4059:4
CCI's [2] - 4049:21,
4050:28
cease [1] - 4025:10
ceiling [2] - 4027:20,
4027:25
Centre [1] - 4066:2
centre [6] - 4009:35,
4009:39, 4053:18,
4053:38, 4053:44,
4054:4
certain [3] - 4050:5,
4055:15, 4060:4
certainly [29] -
4003:13, 4004:2,
4006:13, 4010:5,
4010:18, 4011:17,
4012:22, 4015:47,
4016:7, 4024:14,
4025:43, 4027:46,
4027:47, 4028:15,
4031:16, 4033:34,
4034:6, 4034:19,
4035:29, 4035:41,
4048:10, 4051:40,
4054:45, 4057:35,
4057:38, 4066:40,
4076:30, 4078:45,
4080:13
cetera [1] - 4049:18
CG [2] - 4061:45,
4061:47
challenge [1] -
4058:30
challenged [2] -
4029:40, 4057:7
challenges [1] -
4037:18
chance [2] - 4075:13,
4075:28
change [2] - 4021:26,
4066:40
changed [2] -
3978:46, 4035:32
channelled [1] -
4012:27
chapel [1] - 4063:24
chapter [2] - 4052:32,
4052:36
Chapter [4] - 4063:5,
4063:39, 4064:21,
4064:43
Chapter" [1] - 4063:30
charges [1] - 3976:25
Charles [30] -
4008:25, 4015:16,
4016:5, 4058:11,
4058:45, 4060:29,
4060:41, 4061:19,
4062:40, 4065:16,
4072:31, 4072:36,
4072:38, 4072:41,
4072:46, 4073:19,
4073:36, 4074:10,
4074:22, 4074:30,
4074:40, 4075:9,
4075:21, 4075:43,
4076:40, 4077:7,
4077:16, 4077:19,
4077:24, 4078:2
Chase [1] - 3981:20
check [3] - 4032:37,
4045:14, 4053:46
Chicago [27] -
3988:26, 3988:35,
3988:38, 3990:28,
3990:31, 3990:43,
3990:46, 3991:3,
3991:9, 3991:13,
3991:27, 3991:37,
3991:40, 3991:47,
3992:10, 3992:19,
3992:32, 3993:9,
3993:11, 3993:13,
3993:21, 3993:22,
3993:24, 4001:43,
4002:7, 4002:13,
4002:17
child [8] - 4007:8,
4008:5, 4012:26,
4016:46, 4030:11,
4072:44, 4073:30,
4074:12
CHILD [1] - 3975:13
child-protective [1] -
4030:11
children [18] -
3976:26, 3979:10,
3979:11, 3979:44,
3980:31, 3997:13,
3997:18, 4009:31,
4009:32, 4009:42,
4029:10, 4030:2,
4030:3, 4030:12,
4030:32, 4031:4,
4036:32, 4040:41
choice [1] - 3986:27
chose [1] - 4047:14
Christian [1] -
4025:35
Christmas [1] -
4008:13
Church [12] - 4003:15,
4010:5, 4015:24,
4021:10, 4022:5,
4025:29, 4026:20,
4026:23, 4026:44,
4035:21, 4045:33
church [4] - 4023:33,
4026:13, 4033:47,
4035:36
Chute [73] - 4008:7,
4008:9, 4008:22,
4009:20, 4009:29,
4013:32, 4013:38,
4013:44, 4014:5,
4014:14, 4014:24,
4014:33, 4015:2,
4015:15, 4016:4,
4016:46, 4017:22,
4018:5, 4018:26,
4020:17, 4020:25,
4020:37, 4020:42,
4021:15, 4024:4,
4028:34, 4028:39,
4029:1, 4029:10,
4029:47, 4030:6,
4030:31, 4030:39,
4031:32, 4032:10,
4032:30, 4035:2,
4038:33, 4038:38,
4047:9, 4051:8,
4053:22, 4056:28,
4056:35, 4056:41,
4057:7, 4057:23,
4057:33, 4057:42,
4058:6, 4058:21,
4058:39, 4059:44,
4060:28, 4061:12,
4065:40, 4066:12,
4068:11, 4068:35,
4069:6, 4069:7,
4071:40, 4072:2,
4072:9, 4074:6,
4074:18, 4075:19,
4077:19, 4077:21,
4078:8, 4078:22,
4078:26, 4078:32
Chute' [1] - 4072:2
Chute's [5] - 4053:8,
4056:30, 4058:44,
4060:16, 4060:33
circuit [1] - 4077:10
circumstances [11] -
3980:3, 3991:9,
3991:10, 4008:37,
4012:31, 4015:9,
4018:39, 4026:3,
4040:37, 4060:34,
4078:36
citizen [1] - 4039:22
civil [7] - 4023:32,
4024:22, 4025:45,
4047:34, 4048:8,
4048:24, 4051:7
CLAIM [1] - 4055:4
claim [11] - 4014:10,
4019:7, 4024:22,
4032:25, 4045:13,
4051:13, 4051:14,
4051:23, 4054:14,
4054:19, 4054:32
claimant [3] -
4041:20, 4042:33,
4054:9
claimants [4] -
4041:17, 4044:46,
4049:40, 4051:34
claimed [1] - 4034:22
Claims [1] - 4016:17
claims [22] - 4014:20,
4015:22, 4016:31,
4016:45, 4017:21,
4018:26, 4018:44,
4021:20, 4021:39,
4022:2, 4022:29,
4022:37, 4023:9,
4034:41, 4037:43,
4041:7, 4051:7,
4051:17, 4051:19,
4051:22, 4051:26,
4051:34
CLAIMS [1] - 4016:42
clarify [1] - 4001:22
class [1] - 3979:11
classroom [3] -
3979:11, 3998:37,
4030:2
cleaners [1] - 4054:6
clear [19] - 4000:42,
4005:4, 4006:19,
4006:30, 4008:2,
4008:7, 4016:6,
4016:7, 4029:23,
4043:11, 4043:31,
4043:40, 4043:47,
4044:11, 4068:39,
4069:8, 4071:46,
4077:42, 4077:46
clearer [1] - 4039:14
clearly [4] - 4033:4,
4051:42, 4066:38,
4068:15
client [9] - 4004:35,
4004:46, 4006:21,
4033:42, 4034:22,
4034:31, 4047:31,
4069:38, 4071:21
clientele [1] - 4031:23
clients [2] - 4012:39,
4070:16
close [1] - 3998:38
closed [3] - 3978:6,
3978:8, 4030:3
closer [2] - 4024:24,
4076:27
closing [1] - 4079:36
closure [7] - 4023:19,
4024:19, 4024:21,
4041:17, 4044:35,
4044:41, 4045:1
Coate [1] - 3975:33
coherently [1] -
4068:14
coincidence [1] -
4033:16
colleague [1] -
4037:32
colleagues [2] -
4037:30, 4037:35
collective [1] -
4050:26
College [13] - 3977:47,
3981:20, 4018:27,
4020:35, 4020:45,
4028:40, 4030:37,
4030:44, 4034:23,
4035:13, 4038:33,
4061:14, 4077:21
college [5] - 3980:46,
3981:1, 3981:5,
3981:28, 3997:15
column [3] - 4017:45,
4019:35, 4020:18
comfortable [1] -
4004:16
coming [4] - 4024:27,
4025:42, 4037:18,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT5
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4047:28
commas [1] - 4042:12
commenced [3] -
3977:5, 3977:10,
3977:35
comment [1] -
4077:43
Commission [30] -
3976:16, 3983:8,
4000:24, 4000:35,
4000:44, 4001:11,
4003:12, 4003:25,
4003:38, 4004:42,
4004:44, 4005:39,
4006:4, 4008:35,
4022:7, 4027:35,
4028:13, 4029:32,
4040:2, 4041:29,
4045:4, 4047:32,
4054:22, 4054:44,
4055:23, 4060:41,
4070:19, 4070:32,
4075:34, 4079:34
COMMISSION [2] -
3975:12, 4080:19
Commission's [1] -
4079:39
Commissioner [3] -
4005:17, 4038:21,
4038:23
Commissioners [7] -
3975:34, 3976:3,
4002:36, 4003:34,
4004:2, 4016:22,
4076:19
committed [2] -
4010:40, 4029:47
Committee [4] -
4026:14, 4063:30,
4063:35, 4063:46
committee [2] -
4026:24, 4064:17
common [1] - 4022:37
communicate [1] -
4051:32
communication [3] -
3994:3, 3994:5,
4027:9
communications [2] -
4037:46, 4047:8
communities [2] -
4053:43, 4053:46
community [8] -
3991:13, 3991:40,
3993:11, 3993:32,
4053:27, 4053:28,
4053:43, 4053:47
Community [1] -
4035:21
company [3] - 3988:9,
4014:3, 4035:15
compensated [1] -
4022:33
Compensation [1] -
4020:18
compensation [4] -
4016:31, 4018:34,
4019:39, 4020:17
complainant [1] -
4023:3
complainants [4] -
4017:21, 4018:9,
4023:14, 4037:18
complained [2] -
4018:40, 4074:29
complaint [8] -
4008:5, 4012:26,
4027:37, 4072:43,
4073:29, 4074:11,
4074:14, 4074:42
complaints [4] -
4007:8, 4029:42,
4031:7, 4067:4
complete [5] - 4004:1,
4004:3, 4008:46,
4015:3, 4040:14
completed [7] -
4003:10, 4003:33,
4003:40, 4017:28,
4023:20, 4036:6,
4078:12
complex [1] - 4023:42
comprise [1] -
4065:46
compromise [1] -
4014:4
concede [1] - 4045:47
concern [4] - 3991:33,
4030:6, 4040:40
concerned [6] -
4010:36, 4018:26,
4034:41, 4051:29,
4052:20, 4071:10
concerning [8] -
3976:26, 4021:20,
4021:39, 4060:40,
4061:38, 4063:23,
4064:20, 4064:43
concerns [4] -
4005:26, 4013:43,
4057:22, 4059:16
concessions [1] -
4059:32
conclude [3] - 4071:5,
4071:11
concluded [1] -
4052:46
conclusion [1] -
4002:9
conduct [8] - 3999:19,
3999:22, 3999:32,
4021:39, 4021:44,
4021:47, 4033:41,
4035:12
conducted [6] -
4002:12, 4022:37,
4022:38, 4022:41,
4045:42, 4065:39
conducting [1] -
4046:2
conference [7] -
4009:35, 4010:14,
4010:18, 4010:28,
4010:30, 4043:1,
4052:25
confessional [2] -
4067:13, 4068:43
confident [1] -
4030:14
confined [2] - 4005:8,
4005:9
confirm [2] - 3976:11,
4058:20
confirmation [1] -
4062:39
confront [1] - 4037:18
confronted [2] -
4067:37, 4069:15
connected [1] -
4057:41
conscious [1] -
4058:42
consider [5] -
3978:45, 3986:27,
3995:37, 4008:17,
4038:42
consideration [3] -
4022:10, 4025:38,
4039:5
considerations [1] -
4039:9
considered [3] -
4032:1, 4032:4,
4036:37
considering [2] -
4014:41, 4039:8
consisted [1] -
4075:41
consistency [2] -
4047:44, 4079:40
consistent [5] -
4011:39, 4048:12,
4048:16, 4048:17,
4073:32
consists [1] - 4071:30
constitutes [1] -
4031:29
contact [7] - 3979:10,
3988:9, 3992:42,
3995:31, 3997:22,
3997:25, 4012:38
contacted [5] -
3978:47, 3980:5,
3985:11, 3985:30,
3985:31
contained [2] -
4016:29, 4066:13
contains [1] - 4060:47
context [1] - 4023:28
continually [1] -
4011:42
continue [10] -
3997:37, 4000:47,
4023:12, 4025:17,
4039:20, 4041:44,
4042:10, 4049:45,
4050:21, 4063:46
continued [2] -
3982:25, 4042:14
continuing [3] -
4005:28, 4022:4,
4024:14
CONTINUING [1] -
4006:45
contrary [1] - 4006:14
conversation [11] -
3986:47, 3995:10,
3995:25, 4000:22,
4001:15, 4001:34,
4022:45, 4033:13,
4046:36, 4068:21,
4070:11
conversations [4] -
4034:6, 4051:37,
4057:35, 4066:41
convey [5] - 3999:39,
4000:38, 4029:32,
4068:29, 4071:20
conveyed [4] -
4000:27, 4000:32,
4030:5, 4060:35
convicted [5] -
4039:43, 4040:7,
4040:44, 4057:9,
4059:5
convictions [1] -
4040:17
cook [1] - 4053:29
cooks [1] - 4054:6
copies [2] - 4063:7,
4071:35
copy [4] - 4006:47,
4016:19, 4028:8,
4028:13
corporate [4] -
4035:23, 4035:30,
4042:31, 4050:3
correct [56] - 3976:23,
3976:27, 3976:33,
3976:37, 3977:8,
3977:45, 3978:2,
3979:21, 3980:1,
3980:11, 3980:21,
3980:37, 3982:27,
3985:46, 3986:11,
3987:36, 3990:14,
3990:22, 3990:47,
3992:39, 3993:46,
3995:29, 3997:32,
3998:18, 4000:1,
4000:19, 4002:10,
4007:11, 4007:19,
4007:22, 4007:37,
4008:6, 4009:9,
4019:13, 4023:47,
4031:32, 4031:41,
4034:27, 4035:39,
4036:47, 4038:35,
4038:39, 4039:16,
4040:25, 4040:30,
4041:8, 4041:14,
4045:44, 4048:13,
4050:46, 4052:38,
4064:32, 4066:9,
4068:8, 4078:41
Correctional [1] -
4066:2
Correspondence [1] -
4062:45
correspondence [1] -
4051:17
corresponds [1] -
4011:30
corroborate [2] -
4015:17, 4058:20
corroboration [2] -
4056:47, 4058:43
costs [5] - 4020:20,
4020:26, 4020:31,
4021:3, 4021:11
council [13] - 4008:41,
4032:7, 4040:13,
4040:18, 4040:24,
4040:29, 4040:33,
4041:2, 4048:36,
4052:27, 4063:37,
4064:13, 4064:24
COUNCIL [1] - 4065:9
Council [16] -
4028:12, 4032:47,
4033:19, 4047:47,
4060:43, 4061:32,
4062:20, 4062:29,
4064:1, 4064:8,
4064:10, 4064:11,
4064:18, 4064:20,
4077:18, 4078:4
councillor [1] - 4062:1
councillors [1] -
4011:30
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT6
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

Counsel [1] - 3975:41
counsel [13] -
4001:12, 4005:5,
4033:30, 4033:32,
4034:5, 4035:35,
4054:21, 4055:29,
4056:17, 4062:36,
4065:13, 4065:36,
4070:19
counselled [2] -
4073:1, 4075:11
counselling [3] -
3977:31, 3981:34,
4024:34
counsellor [1] -
3982:38
count [1] - 4032:5
country [1] - 4025:3
couple [3] - 4065:26,
4071:47, 4073:45
course [14] - 3979:19,
3979:23, 3979:24,
3979:27, 3979:28,
3979:32, 3979:39,
4003:24, 4005:21,
4006:5, 4028:20,
4070:23, 4076:7,
4076:12
court [23] - 3994:6,
3994:28, 3994:30,
4010:42, 4017:34,
4018:1, 4018:21,
4022:19, 4045:22,
4045:28, 4049:7,
4049:12, 4049:16,
4049:21, 4050:37,
4051:3, 4051:13,
4051:23, 4051:44,
4052:8, 4052:12,
4054:33, 4057:8
Court [8] - 3976:30,
3976:35, 3976:39,
3976:40, 3976:44,
4012:40, 4021:1,
4052:4
COURT [1] - 4055:5
court-ordered [4] -
4050:37, 4051:3,
4051:44, 4052:8
courtroom [1] -
4052:4
courts [2] - 4012:35,
4050:36
cover [2] - 4012:46,
4013:7
covered [2] - 4053:23,
4061:28
covering [1] - 4058:2
covers [1] - 4003:26
created [2] - 4041:35,
4042:5
creating [1] - 4004:34
creation [1] - 4041:30
credible [1] - 4057:14
creep [1] - 4030:21
Criminal [3] - 3976:35,
3976:41, 3976:44
criminal [3] - 4040:17,
4057:10, 4058:33
criteria [2] - 4022:18,
4022:25
criticising [1] -
4005:43
cross [13] - 4002:42,
4002:46, 4005:36,
4005:37, 4040:43,
4047:31, 4047:33,
4047:40, 4048:6,
4048:23, 4059:34,
4069:37, 4070:30
cross-examination [2]
- 4047:33, 4070:30
cross-examine [5] -
4002:46, 4005:36,
4005:37, 4047:40,
4069:37
cross-examined [2] -
4047:31, 4048:23
cross-examining [3] -
4002:42, 4048:6,
4059:34
CROWE [1] - 4006:43
Crowe [42] - 4003:9,
4003:18, 4003:32,
4003:33, 4003:41,
4003:47, 4005:6,
4005:14, 4005:29,
4006:5, 4006:28,
4006:39, 4006:47,
4014:1, 4016:28,
4023:42, 4028:32,
4028:46, 4029:45,
4038:19, 4038:25,
4043:39, 4048:34,
4052:30, 4053:6,
4054:18, 4054:27,
4054:31, 4055:10,
4055:42, 4056:19,
4062:34, 4062:38,
4071:29, 4075:46,
4077:42, 4078:1,
4079:26, 4079:38,
4079:45
Crowe's [1] - 4006:8
current [10] - 4003:14,
4003:17, 4003:19,
4018:44, 4024:28,
4027:36, 4028:2,
4029:7, 4032:3,
4077:34
D
damages [10] -
4012:13, 4012:22,
4022:18, 4022:21,
4022:25, 4022:26,
4041:13, 4044:4,
4044:16, 4044:20
Damian [2] - 4038:24,
4038:32
dare [1] - 4006:2
Data [1] - 4016:18
data [2] - 4016:29,
4017:10
DATA [1] - 4016:43
DATE [1] - 4080:20
date [16] - 3976:32,
3984:1, 4003:42,
4007:41, 4017:4,
4017:6, 4017:11,
4040:13, 4056:24,
4074:3, 4080:3,
4080:4, 4080:8,
4080:14
dated [4] - 4046:18,
4056:20, 4057:47,
4072:5
dates [1] - 4053:23
days [8] - 3986:6,
3988:46, 3989:4,
3989:5, 3989:9,
3989:13, 3991:17,
4078:45
De [6] - 4038:24,
4038:32, 4047:31,
4048:7, 4052:20
deal [7] - 4026:2,
4026:9, 4028:1,
4029:30, 4037:42,
4070:31, 4077:28
dealing [7] - 4007:13,
4009:46, 4022:8,
4022:29, 4024:13,
4031:25, 4037:33
dealt [4] - 4026:7,
4029:43, 4051:27,
4063:22
deceased [1] -
4058:10
December [7] -
3976:44, 4008:14,
4053:12, 4053:17,
4053:24, 4054:3,
4067:47
decide [1] - 4005:37
decided [1] - 4053:32
decision [5] -
3979:32, 4006:22,
4022:24, 4025:17,
4025:22
decisions [1] - 4034:3
decisively [1] -
4013:33
deed [12] - 4023:17,
4023:32, 4023:37,
4023:44, 4024:16,
4041:16, 4044:34,
4044:41, 4044:42,
4044:47
deeds [5] - 4024:8,
4024:45, 4025:10,
4025:17, 4025:22
deeply [1] - 4034:45
defence [23] -
4011:18, 4021:31,
4022:10, 4033:46,
4034:4, 4034:15,
4034:23, 4034:40,
4035:1, 4035:7,
4041:6, 4041:20,
4041:22, 4042:17,
4042:40, 4043:12,
4043:14, 4045:19,
4045:31, 4050:22,
4054:15, 4054:19,
4054:32
DEFENCE [1] - 4055:4
defendant [2] -
4021:39, 4035:8
defendants [2] -
4049:23, 4049:29
defending [2] -
4011:3, 4022:2
defensible [1] -
4011:39
definitely [2] -
4051:47, 4054:5
defrocked [4] -
4039:4, 4039:20,
4039:24, 4040:12
defrocking [1] -
4031:40
degree [2] - 4030:9,
4036:30
delays [1] - 4051:30
delicate [1] - 4037:8
demands [1] - 4026:6
Demetrius [2] -
4062:6, 4063:12
demolished [1] -
4059:36
Denis [2] - 4001:6,
4036:21
deny [3] - 4001:25,
4001:29, 4010:37
described [1] -
4060:40
describes [1] -
4053:26
desire [2] - 4051:42,
4052:7
despite [1] - 4030:5
destitute [1] - 4039:12
detail [1] - 4058:2
determination [2] -
4016:9, 4022:27
determinations [1] -
4026:39
determine [1] -
4026:16
determined [1] -
4012:46
determining [2] -
4022:18, 4022:25
developing [3] -
4026:4, 4031:6
development [1] -
4031:15
device [1] - 4059:43
dialogue [3] -
4012:43, 4022:45,
4022:46
difference [1] -
4039:33
different [7] - 3978:45,
4000:25, 4010:7,
4025:25, 4026:28,
4051:37, 4058:6
differently [3] -
4022:42, 4059:23,
4073:37
difficult [6] - 4034:38,
4037:20, 4037:21,
4037:25, 4060:32,
4066:42
difficulties [5] -
4029:23, 4053:30,
4078:23, 4078:29,
4078:33
difficulty [6] -
4005:20, 4005:28,
4027:2, 4032:26,
4066:42, 4078:46
diminished [3] -
4057:11, 4058:34,
4059:6
dioceses [1] - 4003:15
direct [1] - 4048:10
directed [3] - 3989:29,
3990:8, 3990:25
direction [4] -
3986:23, 3987:38,
4037:26, 4045:31
directly [5] - 4047:41,
4047:43, 4057:34,
4057:35, 4057:36
director [2] - 4029:8,
4032:38
directors [2] - 4033:9,
4033:27
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT7
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

disastrous [1] -
4029:43
disbursements [3] -
4020:26, 4020:31,
4021:4
disciplinary [2] -
4078:25, 4078:31
disclose [1] - 4029:29
disclosed [1] -
4016:10
disclosure [2] -
4067:39, 4069:17
disclosures [2] -
4029:25, 4029:35
discomfort [1] -
4030:13
discovered [3] -
3994:20, 4000:36,
4008:13
discuss [4] - 3999:18,
4047:26, 4064:25,
4079:9
discussed [6] -
4008:40, 4031:47,
4032:6, 4040:13,
4041:2, 4069:28
discussion [26] -
3980:13, 3983:7,
3983:34, 3983:39,
3983:46, 3984:11,
3984:12, 3984:16,
3984:21, 3987:4,
3988:24, 3990:24,
3996:18, 3996:30,
3999:26, 4025:21,
4025:24, 4033:7,
4040:15, 4040:17,
4040:23, 4040:29,
4041:3, 4042:2,
4044:44, 4063:43
discussions [16] -
3987:11, 3994:1,
3994:3, 3996:32,
4010:6, 4010:23,
4010:26, 4022:4,
4022:7, 4025:7,
4040:19, 4046:26,
4047:14, 4060:17,
4068:10, 4080:3
dishonesty [1] -
4029:22
dismissed [1] -
3976:35
dispensation [4] -
3993:45, 3994:2,
4002:3, 4079:14
dispensed [1] -
3993:37
disputes [1] - 4063:23
dissatisfied [3] -
4025:30, 4025:43,
4035:37
distress [2] - 4034:46,
4040:45
distressed [2] -
4048:26
District [1] - 3976:30
doctor [1] - 4073:9
DOCUMENT [1] -
4016:42
document [32] -
4013:18, 4015:13,
4016:17, 4016:23,
4016:38, 4016:45,
4030:37, 4041:26,
4041:30, 4042:5,
4043:11, 4043:27,
4043:33, 4046:11,
4048:40, 4048:47,
4055:43, 4056:6,
4061:1, 4061:3,
4063:37, 4066:1,
4066:47, 4072:11,
4074:6, 4075:31,
4075:33, 4075:47,
4076:5, 4076:10,
4076:20, 4077:5
documentary [2] -
4058:43, 4070:24
documentation [1] -
4023:22
documents [15] -
4010:34, 4029:27,
4032:29, 4032:30,
4032:36, 4043:29,
4054:22, 4054:36,
4055:1, 4055:20,
4055:31, 4055:38,
4065:1, 4075:42,
4076:3
DOCUMENTS [1] -
4056:15
Doherty [4] - 4001:6,
4036:21, 4036:43
done [19] - 3997:14,
4000:45, 4000:46,
4000:47, 4006:14,
4008:10, 4009:31,
4031:3, 4031:5,
4031:13, 4037:7,
4037:14, 4037:42,
4038:2, 4039:28,
4054:23, 4073:21,
4073:37, 4075:14
double [2] - 4020:6,
4020:10
doubt [3] - 4025:28,
4029:8, 4058:30
doubts [1] - 4047:8
DOUGLAS [5] -
3998:1, 3998:3,
3998:5, 4001:2,
4028:26
Douglas [1] - 3998:6
DOUGLAS-BAKER
[5] - 3998:1, 3998:3,
3998:5, 4001:2,
4028:26
Douglas-Baker [1] -
3998:6
down [14] - 3994:18,
3998:15, 4010:22,
4012:3, 4014:30,
4033:3, 4046:29,
4050:16, 4050:42,
4053:35, 4061:38,
4072:12, 4072:24
drafting [1] - 4009:16
draw [5] - 4013:6,
4058:3, 4066:12,
4076:27, 4076:36
drew [1] - 4007:28
drug [1] - 4047:35
Drummoyne [3] -
3980:20, 3982:11,
3982:17
due [2] - 4028:20,
4070:23
Duffy [1] - 4072:30
Duffy" [1] - 4072:23
dumping [1] - 4046:34
Dundas [1] - 4009:36
during [8] - 3992:41,
4001:15, 4040:23,
4043:1, 4047:31,
4054:2, 4055:10,
4079:9
duties [1] - 3980:24
duty [2] - 4010:37,
4024:16
dwell [1] - 4061:40
Dwyer [4] - 3978:40,
3981:39, 4072:28,
4074:9
E
earliest [1] - 3976:31
early [5] - 4003:6,
4011:11, 4029:42,
4051:39, 4051:46
earning [1] - 4039:12
earnings [1] - 4024:31
ease [1] - 4027:8
Eastwood [3] -
3977:36, 3978:6,
3978:8
easy [1] - 4068:14
Education [1] -
3981:21
educational [1] -
4010:39
effect [7] - 3995:12,
3999:2, 3999:10,
4013:26, 4056:28,
4077:16
effectively [6] -
4013:30, 4027:20,
4029:43, 4038:42,
4053:40, 4075:46
efficiencies [2] -
4027:5, 4053:32
eighteen [1] - 4018:12
either [17] - 3982:25,
3984:26, 3999:44,
4000:3, 4004:23,
4005:36, 4013:3,
4017:34, 4025:44,
4051:23, 4051:32,
4051:33, 4057:35,
4069:43, 4070:24,
4077:24, 4079:35
elderly [1] - 4032:20
elected [1] - 4023:3
Elias [8] - 4062:13,
4062:18, 4062:40,
4062:45, 4063:36,
4064:18, 4064:37,
4064:41
Ellis [9] - 4010:25,
4010:27, 4010:32,
4010:37, 4021:31,
4022:8, 4035:19,
4042:24, 4050:23
Ellis-Pell [2] -
4042:24, 4050:23
email [7] - 4011:24,
4012:3, 4046:14,
4046:22, 4046:47,
4047:11, 4047:12
embark [1] - 4070:30
emotional [1] -
4037:22
employee [1] -
4026:43
enabled [1] - 4030:46
Encompass [4] -
4066:23, 4066:33,
4068:3, 4068:4
encouraging [1] -
4012:10
end [14] - 3992:25,
3995:25, 3995:26,
3999:27, 4006:7,
4009:30, 4050:5,
4053:46, 4063:44,
4064:24, 4064:28,
4064:42, 4076:32
ended [1] - 4042:37
enforce [1] - 4009:21
engaged [1] - 4020:21
engaging [1] -
4070:20
Enoggera [1] -
4063:22
enormous [1] -
4030:38
ensure [2] - 4009:32,
4039:26
enter [1] - 4012:42
entered [1] - 4012:34
entirely [2] - 4002:43,
4004:18
entities [1] - 4025:29
entitled [1] - 4016:17
entity [2] - 4035:13,
4035:18
entries [1] - 4053:10
entry [2] - 4062:45,
4063:20
environment [1] -
4030:45
envisages [1] -
4005:43
especially [1] -
4023:23
essentially [1] -
4048:43
established [2] -
4026:16, 4035:41
establishing [1] -
4065:16
establishment [2] -
4066:33, 4068:2
et [1] - 4049:18
etc [1] - 4042:25
euphemism [1] -
4029:27
euphemisms [1] -
4029:32
event [1] - 4023:19
events [4] - 4015:16,
4031:16, 4057:13,
4058:46
eventually [1] -
4012:31
evidence [59] -
3977:43, 3978:19,
3987:11, 3987:35,
3990:21, 3996:31,
4000:42, 4002:43,
4003:10, 4003:19,
4003:33, 4003:40,
4004:1, 4004:3,
4004:45, 4005:42,
4006:8, 4007:31,
4008:17, 4008:22,
4008:33, 4008:40,
4013:21, 4013:26,
4013:37, 4013:43,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT8
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4029:47, 4038:37,
4040:3, 4040:11,
4041:5, 4041:11,
4045:4, 4045:36,
4045:37, 4047:9,
4051:7, 4051:28,
4055:11, 4056:28,
4056:35, 4056:39,
4057:9, 4057:23,
4058:5, 4058:33,
4059:5, 4059:35,
4062:39, 4070:26,
4070:27, 4071:5,
4071:12, 4076:16,
4076:21, 4076:26,
4077:28, 4077:33,
4077:44
evident [2] - 4008:9,
4008:12
evidently [1] - 4034:43
exact [1] - 3984:1
exactly [10] - 3979:37,
3985:2, 3994:25,
4022:17, 4022:25,
4033:1, 4060:33,
4073:21, 4073:36
examination [3] -
4047:33, 4070:30,
4078:16
examine [5] - 4002:46,
4005:36, 4005:37,
4047:40, 4069:37
examined [3] -
4026:12, 4047:31,
4048:23
examining [4] -
4002:42, 4022:6,
4048:6, 4059:34
example [17] -
4015:15, 4016:4,
4016:13, 4021:31,
4024:45, 4025:35,
4031:20, 4031:21,
4034:39, 4037:16,
4041:21, 4045:9,
4051:35, 4051:38,
4057:39, 4069:44
except [1] - 4064:12
exception [2] -
4022:21, 4022:22
excessively [1] -
4046:35
excuse [4] - 4005:12,
4006:41, 4072:17,
4079:44
excused [5] - 4004:43,
4006:26, 4071:16,
4072:14, 4079:27
executive [1] - 4015:1
exemplary [5] -
4012:13, 4012:21,
4022:26, 4041:13,
4044:4
exercise [1] - 4032:22
exhibit [4] - 4016:40,
4055:2, 4056:11,
4065:6
EXHIBIT [4] - 4016:42,
4055:4, 4056:13,
4065:8
exist [1] - 4009:38
expectation [1] -
3990:12
expected [2] -
3988:13, 4008:37
expenses [1] -
4020:20
experience [4] -
4024:15, 4044:37,
4064:7, 4064:31
explain [3] - 4000:9,
4004:47, 4034:27
explanation [2] -
4030:7, 4049:27
exposure [1] -
4015:29
expressed [1] -
4056:2
expressing [2] -
4011:37, 4057:32
expression [3] -
4012:21, 4041:12,
4044:23
expressions [1] -
4069:7
extend [2] - 4024:30,
4048:6
extended [1] -
4004:10
extent [5] - 4015:2,
4015:45, 4016:2,
4016:14, 4037:45
extract [1] - 4061:31
extradited [1] -
3976:21
extremely [1] -
3989:20
eye [1] - 3998:15
F
faced [1] - 4024:22
facility [5] - 3989:47,
4039:28, 4039:29,
4039:38, 4066:31
fact [8] - 4033:9,
4034:22, 4036:2,
4043:20, 4045:47,
4058:42, 4077:24,
4078:2
factors [2] - 3982:3,
4030:45
facts [2] - 4015:9,
4015:12
factual [1] - 4010:10
failed [1] - 4013:33
failure [2] - 4030:10,
4036:30
fair [8] - 4008:38,
4015:25, 4015:27,
4015:29, 4015:32,
4030:9, 4036:29,
4050:18
fairly [1] - 4051:26
false [1] - 4050:46
familiar [3] - 4026:31,
4026:32, 4036:24
families [1] - 4031:10
family [2] - 4032:25,
4037:36
far [9] - 4009:34,
4024:37, 4052:12,
4054:31, 4055:47,
4059:22, 4066:7,
4071:10, 4078:6
farmhouse [2] -
4009:38, 4053:44
Farmhouse [2] -
4053:13, 4053:26
Farrer [1] - 3975:23
father [13] - 3983:9,
3983:22, 3983:26,
3983:28, 3983:35,
3983:39, 3984:11,
3986:31, 3986:36,
3987:1, 3987:14,
3987:27, 4069:1
fault [2] - 4004:34,
4025:47
February [1] - 3976:32
fees [2] - 4020:37,
4021:16
feet [2] - 4045:21,
4075:30
fellow [1] - 3998:26
felt [3] - 4030:20,
4044:47, 4052:9
few [7] - 4003:8,
4049:32, 4050:25,
4058:16, 4061:41,
4070:7, 4070:45
figure [3] - 4017:3,
4017:40, 4042:39
filed [1] - 4054:33
FILED [1] - 4055:5
filing [1] - 4051:13
final [3] - 4040:15,
4046:39, 4079:13
finances [1] - 4032:24
financial [11] -
3981:24, 4017:25,
4018:12, 4018:34,
4018:40, 4036:3,
4039:9, 4039:15,
4039:18, 4039:25,
4049:36
finely [1] - 4038:1
finish [3] - 4028:7,
4043:35, 4053:33
finished [5] - 3981:6,
3993:21, 3996:20,
3996:24, 4024:18
first [49] - 3977:5,
3980:9, 3981:34,
3985:10, 3985:44,
3988:14, 3988:17,
3990:10, 3997:4,
3997:30, 3998:15,
4004:33, 4018:30,
4019:15, 4025:3,
4031:2, 4035:7,
4036:46, 4041:43,
4046:22, 4048:34,
4048:39, 4048:42,
4049:13, 4049:32,
4051:12, 4051:23,
4052:2, 4053:25,
4056:21, 4058:4,
4060:12, 4061:41,
4061:42, 4062:24,
4062:38, 4065:47,
4066:14, 4067:10,
4067:16, 4069:6,
4069:31, 4071:46,
4072:1, 4072:22,
4073:33, 4074:24,
4078:27
firstly [4] - 4007:13,
4063:22, 4070:17,
4078:22
fits [1] - 4008:18
five [6] - 3991:17,
4016:29, 4016:35,
4040:32, 4041:38,
4041:43
fixed [2] - 4003:42,
4080:3
FIXED [1] - 4080:20
flow [2] - 4051:17,
4051:22
focusing [1] - 4061:16
follow [3] - 3983:15,
3990:12, 4050:5
followed [1] - 3978:31
following [11] -
3977:23, 3993:3,
4008:5, 4009:2,
4009:25, 4040:17,
4051:20, 4057:40,
4058:37, 4068:2,
4080:9
FOR [2] - 4056:14,
4065:8
fora [1] - 4011:46
fora" [1] - 4011:42
forget [1] - 4044:26
form [9] - 3991:32,
4001:35, 4010:46,
4011:7, 4047:13,
4051:43, 4052:7,
4077:20, 4078:5
formal [1] - 4022:3
formed [1] - 4014:46
former [4] - 4006:43,
4016:46, 4036:21,
4079:10
forms [1] - 4041:3
forthcoming [2] -
4036:37, 4070:34
forward [5] - 3999:38,
4014:42, 4014:45,
4037:18, 4067:3
four [15] - 3989:4,
3989:9, 3989:13,
3991:17, 4020:7,
4035:46, 4036:1,
4049:3, 4053:10,
4063:17, 4063:21,
4075:42, 4076:38
fourth [2] - 4060:32,
4075:43
fourthly [1] - 4067:35
frame [1] - 3988:12
fraught [1] - 4079:39
free [1] - 4032:14
frequent [1] - 4047:14
fresh [1] - 4002:43
Fribourg [5] -
4067:29, 4073:2,
4075:12, 4075:20,
4075:24
friend [5] - 4036:28,
4045:42, 4069:25,
4069:43, 4075:30
friend's [1] - 4036:15
front [6] - 3983:12,
3998:11, 3998:43,
4030:2, 4041:31,
4046:25
fruit [1] - 4058:22
full [13] - 3976:17,
3991:41, 4011:4,
4012:20, 4029:32,
4033:22, 4040:23,
4041:12, 4044:30,
4062:24, 4063:16,
4064:6, 4064:15
fully [7] - 4032:6,
4040:13, 4040:18,
4040:29, 4044:3,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT9
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4044:31, 4073:19
function [1] - 4068:26
fundamental [1] -
4024:36
fundamentally [1] -
4046:32
Furness [7] - 3975:41,
3976:1, 3997:46,
4003:6, 4006:17,
4070:37, 4071:14
FURNESS [45] -
3976:3, 3976:8,
3976:14, 3976:16,
3997:44, 4003:8,
4003:24, 4004:7,
4004:26, 4004:30,
4005:23, 4005:28,
4006:13, 4006:39,
4006:45, 4006:47,
4016:22, 4016:28,
4016:38, 4016:45,
4028:11, 4028:18,
4028:22, 4038:11,
4043:35, 4045:21,
4048:15, 4054:41,
4056:9, 4065:4,
4069:23, 4069:46,
4070:39, 4071:18,
4075:30, 4076:14,
4077:27, 4077:37,
4078:18, 4078:20,
4078:22, 4079:24,
4079:33, 4080:2,
4080:12
G
gai [2] - 3981:20
Gail [1] - 3975:41
gain [1] - 4039:37
gained [1] - 4007:30
gaol [3] - 4040:22,
4040:23, 4073:43
gaoled [1] - 4039:46
garden [1] - 4053:41
gather [1] - 3981:47
gathered [1] - 4011:20
general [10] - 3980:24,
4013:5, 4014:9,
4027:31, 4037:44,
4049:7, 4049:12,
4052:32, 4052:36,
4062:1
generally [6] -
4003:21, 4010:26,
4022:37, 4026:32,
4026:44
generational [1] -
4066:40
generous [1] -
4059:32
Gerard [1] - 4033:26
Gildas [2] - 4062:5,
4063:12
given [31] - 3977:39,
3978:4, 3978:15,
3978:19, 3978:27,
3978:42, 3987:11,
3987:35, 3987:39,
3989:12, 3990:20,
3996:3, 3996:31,
4006:23, 4011:15,
4016:13, 4022:10,
4025:38, 4027:1,
4040:11, 4044:37,
4045:5, 4045:15,
4047:9, 4050:47,
4054:28, 4061:20,
4066:22, 4070:4,
4070:27, 4070:30
Gooley [1] - 4048:37
Governor [1] -
3975:22
grade [3] - 3996:45,
3997:1, 3998:34
graduate [2] -
3980:46, 3981:1
granted [3] - 3976:11,
4031:23, 4036:4
Gray [16] - 4003:1,
4004:12, 4004:31,
4005:23, 4005:31,
4006:23, 4006:28,
4048:30, 4048:36,
4069:40, 4069:46,
4071:25, 4075:38,
4076:24, 4076:25,
4078:15
GRAY [30] - 4003:3,
4005:33, 4028:15,
4048:32, 4048:34,
4054:18, 4054:27,
4054:36, 4055:7,
4055:42, 4056:6,
4056:17, 4062:33,
4065:1, 4065:11,
4069:28, 4069:42,
4070:2, 4071:27,
4072:21, 4075:36,
4075:40, 4076:2,
4076:7, 4076:12,
4076:30, 4076:36,
4077:33, 4077:46,
4078:11
great [5] - 4034:46,
4037:17, 4037:42,
4069:29, 4075:13
greater [1] - 4058:2
green [2] - 4026:14,
4028:7
Green [3] - 4011:24,
4011:28, 4011:29
Greg [1] - 3999:47
Gregory [2] - 3976:4,
3976:18
GREGORY [1] -
3976:6
grooming [3] -
4031:20, 4031:23,
4031:29
ground [4] - 4001:26,
4039:42, 4058:2,
4058:3
group [12] - 4014:12,
4014:15, 4024:7,
4024:10, 4024:12,
4025:23, 4031:28,
4043:14, 4043:17,
4043:18, 4044:1,
4054:6
groups [2] - 4025:25,
4032:47
guarantees [1] -
4031:9
guideline [2] -
4005:43, 4006:15
guilty [1] - 3976:25
H
half [9] - 3976:31,
3992:35, 3992:41,
4004:37, 4015:21,
4036:46, 4051:12,
4051:23, 4052:2
halfway [1] - 3992:37
Hall [1] - 3979:19
handling [3] -
4022:28, 4027:37,
4031:7
hands [3] - 4010:4,
4015:40, 4045:32
handwritten [2] -
4059:45, 4071:39
happy [6] - 4004:33,
4054:41, 4054:45,
4069:33, 4070:46,
4077:46
hard [2] - 4063:7,
4068:29
hardball [3] - 4042:10,
4045:9, 4049:45
hardball' [1] - 4050:22
Harrison [13] - 4043:2,
4046:14, 4046:22,
4046:46, 4047:11,
4051:36, 4051:37,
4051:39, 4066:8,
4067:10, 4068:11,
4068:35, 4072:8
Harrison's [1] -
4066:11
head [5] - 3976:30,
3976:45, 4033:4,
4037:2, 4038:2
headed [2] - 4066:1,
4072:1
heading [5] - 4050:43,
4063:29, 4067:5,
4068:10, 4073:46
headquarters [2] -
3980:35, 3982:26
Healing [26] - 4012:11,
4012:27, 4017:28,
4017:31, 4018:15,
4022:41, 4022:44,
4023:4, 4023:5,
4023:14, 4023:21,
4023:28, 4023:31,
4024:2, 4024:9,
4024:25, 4024:30,
4024:45, 4025:44,
4027:22, 4027:33,
4028:12, 4047:47,
4048:36, 4051:1,
4052:27
healing [2] - 4023:1,
4047:2
hear [12] - 3992:46,
3993:5, 3993:35,
3998:7, 4001:7,
4004:23, 4005:23,
4027:44, 4028:43,
4035:5, 4043:37,
4076:31
heard [10] - 3985:44,
3996:34, 4004:10,
4027:6, 4033:40,
4033:45, 4034:25,
4070:3, 4070:18,
4076:14
Hearing [1] - 3975:17
hearing [8] - 4003:12,
4008:11, 4027:43,
4028:46, 4029:2,
4061:24, 4061:27,
4071:16
Heart [1] - 3977:11
Heinrich [1] - 4033:7
held [1] - 4012:16
Help [1] - 4067:6
help [12] - 4009:11,
4010:16, 4019:27,
4020:11, 4026:16,
4029:29, 4029:30,
4031:22, 4037:31,
4066:23, 4068:3,
4073:24
help" [1] - 4073:39
helped [1] - 4029:35
helpful [3] - 4029:46,
4053:34, 4075:33
helpfully [1] - 4028:3
helps [1] - 4004:7
HGH [1] - 4066:7
High [1] - 3976:39
high [3] - 4032:21,
4046:32, 4067:45
Hilary [1] - 4061:45
himself [6] - 4000:33,
4013:38, 4032:10,
4032:12, 4056:35,
4069:8
historical [1] -
4045:45
historically [1] -
4037:41
history [2] - 4037:38,
4067:5
hmm [1] - 4008:31
hold [5] - 3981:26,
4003:12, 4004:41,
4007:30, 4012:19
holding [2] - 4035:15,
4035:24
Holdsworth [8] -
3983:8, 3983:22,
3983:26, 3983:34,
3986:36, 3987:14,
3987:40, 3988:5
honestly [1] - 4079:12
honesty [1] - 4046:33
Honour [43] - 3976:3,
3998:1, 4002:35,
4002:41, 4003:3,
4003:34, 4004:2,
4004:14, 4004:19,
4004:26, 4004:30,
4005:33, 4016:22,
4028:15, 4028:26,
4036:14, 4038:11,
4045:21, 4048:15,
4055:7, 4056:9,
4065:2, 4065:4,
4069:23, 4069:28,
4069:42, 4070:2,
4071:18, 4071:27,
4072:14, 4075:30,
4075:36, 4076:14,
4076:19, 4076:31,
4077:27, 4077:33,
4077:37, 4078:11,
4078:18, 4079:30,
4079:33, 4080:2
hospitalised [1] -
4058:11
hostel [1] - 4039:28
hour [1] - 4004:37
hours [2] - 3979:11,
4070:7
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT10
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

house [1] - 3991:41
House [6] - 3980:18,
3980:20, 3980:23,
3980:31, 3984:29,
3984:32
Howard [39] -
4008:25, 4015:16,
4016:5, 4043:2,
4046:14, 4047:11,
4058:11, 4058:45,
4060:29, 4060:42,
4061:10, 4061:19,
4062:41, 4065:16,
4065:33, 4066:8,
4072:22, 4072:32,
4072:36, 4072:38,
4072:41, 4072:46,
4073:19, 4073:34,
4073:36, 4074:10,
4074:22, 4074:31,
4074:40, 4075:9,
4075:21, 4075:43,
4076:40, 4077:7,
4077:11, 4077:16,
4077:19, 4077:24,
4078:2
hugging [2] - 4016:9,
4029:28
hunt [2] - 4037:9,
4037:11
idea [6] - 3986:18,
4012:30, 4044:34,
4044:35, 4044:40,
4045:5
ideal [1] - 4003:47
identify [1] - 4036:31
identifying [2] -
4030:45, 4049:22
ignorance [2] -
4030:9, 4036:30
ignorant [1] - 4037:39
Ildephonsus [6] -
4062:14, 4062:19,
4063:36, 4064:19,
4064:38, 4064:42
imagining [1] -
3983:32
immediate [1] -
4031:47
immediately [2] -
4062:29, 4063:4
impact [3] - 4039:24,
4047:3, 4051:30
impediments [1] -
4078:35
implications [5] -
4012:21, 4033:23,
I
4041:12, 4044:4,
4044:30
important [2] -
4011:38, 4047:25
impression [3] -
3991:32, 4047:5,
4050:46
IN [2] - 4055:4,
4056:14
inadequate [1] -
4025:46
inappropriate [5] -
3980:7, 3980:10,
3999:32, 4013:32,
4056:31
incidents [1] -
4072:28
include [1] - 4024:40
included [1] - 4033:24
including [4] -
4003:16, 4045:29,
4059:5, 4060:11
inclusion [1] -
4010:27
income [2] - 4022:32,
4039:12
income-earning [1] -
4039:12
inconsistency [1] -
4060:28
inconsistent [2] -
4048:17, 4048:20
incorrect [1] - 4023:24
increased [1] - 4036:2
indeed [4] - 4028:12,
4054:43, 4064:41,
4076:12
indemnify [1] - 4014:9
indemnity [3] -
4014:4, 4014:37,
4057:39
independent [7] -
4026:10, 4026:24,
4026:44, 4027:7,
4032:23, 4034:45,
4045:44
indicate [9] - 3994:28,
4003:46, 4006:13,
4043:46, 4046:47,
4052:35, 4064:31,
4069:25, 4069:46
indicated [8] -
4001:26, 4008:36,
4018:42, 4023:11,
4034:11, 4045:42,
4047:35, 4051:42
indicates [2] -
4043:27, 4051:7
indicating [2] -
4006:20, 4023:15
indication [2] -
4006:23, 4052:6
individuals [2] -
4049:22, 4049:23
influenced [1] -
4031:16
inform [1] - 4030:33
information [11] -
3985:41, 3994:36,
4001:17, 4008:16,
4008:34, 4008:45,
4036:37, 4037:4,
4046:3, 4047:1,
4059:4
informed [6] - 3985:2,
3987:13, 4000:45,
4016:5, 4017:16
informing [3] -
3984:17, 4001:31,
4080:13
initial [1] - 4034:43
initials [1] - 4066:7
initiate [1] - 4000:23
initiated [4] - 3981:38,
4000:31, 4000:32,
4012:35
initiation [1] - 4000:43
inquire [1] - 4048:16
inquiries [7] -
4003:38, 4003:43,
4034:43, 4052:35,
4070:13, 4070:20,
4070:22
inquiry [5] - 3984:18,
3985:3, 3985:31,
3985:34, 4030:40
inserted [1] - 4009:11
inside [1] - 4037:32
instigation [1] -
3990:16
institution [1] -
4010:39
INSTITUTIONAL [1] -
3975:12
instruct [4] - 4012:42,
4012:44, 4045:18,
4045:28
instructing [5] -
4006:2, 4010:2,
4043:20, 4043:22,
4070:8
instruction [4] -
4010:6, 4047:47,
4048:2, 4048:10
instructions [12] -
4002:43, 4002:45,
4004:11, 4004:24,
4005:13, 4010:10,
4010:31, 4034:9,
4034:10, 4045:34,
4047:39, 4070:13
insurance [8] -
4012:46, 4013:7,
4014:2, 4014:6,
4014:8, 4021:28,
4043:5, 4055:33
Insurance [5] -
4010:5, 4015:24,
4021:10, 4022:5,
4045:33
insured [4] - 4010:40,
4021:29, 4021:30,
4022:1
insurer [8] - 4010:41,
4010:45, 4010:46,
4011:1, 4013:42,
4014:21, 4015:41,
4019:12
insurer's [2] - 4013:6,
4013:41
insurers [1] - 4013:25
integrity [1] - 4046:33
intend [1] - 4070:45
intends [1] - 4003:12
interactions [1] -
4060:18
interest [1] - 4003:24
interested [2] -
4002:41, 4027:35
internal [1] - 4053:31
internship [2] -
3994:17
interpret [1] - 4076:20
interpreted [1] -
4001:35
interpreting [1] -
4075:47
interventions [1] -
3981:35
interview [8] -
4056:40, 4059:43,
4065:39, 4071:39,
4072:1, 4075:43,
4077:6, 4077:11
interviews [2] -
4008:25, 4065:45
intimacy [2] - 3979:24,
3979:40
INTO [1] - 3975:12
inverted [1] - 4042:12
investigate [1] -
4038:3
investigated [1] -
4002:33
investigation [8] -
3984:18, 3985:3,
3985:45, 3987:47,
3988:5, 4045:43,
4045:45, 4046:2
investigations [1] -
4002:31
invitation [1] -
4064:12
invite [3] - 3984:34,
4003:34, 4004:2
invited [1] - 4025:30
inviting [2] - 4027:46,
4027:47
involve [2] - 3990:1,
4036:3
involved [22] -
3996:35, 3996:37,
3997:17, 4007:16,
4007:33, 4009:16,
4009:45, 4010:2,
4010:5, 4010:23,
4014:41, 4020:36,
4029:28, 4029:34,
4030:3, 4032:16,
4034:3, 4034:6,
4036:9, 4051:30,
4053:30, 4054:6
involvement [1] -
4009:37
involving [1] -
4049:22
issue [16] - 3995:14,
3999:19, 4013:47,
4014:15, 4014:24,
4014:27, 4014:37,
4015:8, 4021:34,
4021:38, 4021:41,
4035:34, 4040:39,
4045:8, 4063:23,
4068:15
ISSUED [1] - 4056:13
issued [6] - 3994:6,
3994:26, 3994:28,
3994:46, 4055:37,
4079:21
issues [10] - 4003:22,
4023:43, 4024:11,
4028:2, 4031:31,
4037:41, 4066:39,
4067:38, 4069:16,
4074:8
it" [1] - 4015:36
item [7] - 4061:33,
4061:38, 4063:28,
4063:44, 4064:25,
4066:15, 4066:35
items [1] - 4064:43
itself [4] - 4023:22,
4031:2, 4049:3,
4052:4
J
January [15] - 3977:6,
3977:10, 3977:35,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT11
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

3977:47, 3978:8,
3978:11, 3978:23,
4040:2, 4040:27,
4053:12, 4053:17,
4053:24, 4053:25,
4053:45, 4054:2
JE [1] - 4066:2
JEFFREY [1] -
4006:43
Jennifer [1] - 3975:33
jobs [1] - 3997:17
Joe [2] - 4071:36,
4071:47
John [11] - 3983:22,
3983:26, 3983:34,
3986:36, 3987:14,
3987:40, 3988:5,
4008:7, 4008:9,
4047:9, 4072:1
JOHN [1] - 4006:43
join [1] - 4070:41
joined [1] - 3979:29
JOSEPH [1] - 3976:6
Joseph [1] - 3976:18
judgment [1] -
4078:36
judgments [1] -
4026:25
JULY [1] - 4056:14
July [18] - 3975:27,
3976:35, 3981:10,
3981:12, 3993:3,
3993:6, 3993:8,
3993:22, 3993:24,
4042:45, 4048:47,
4055:37, 4060:44,
4063:4, 4063:16,
4064:16, 4064:27,
4064:33
June [5] - 4013:11,
4056:21, 4062:30,
4062:44, 4063:10
junior [1] - 3978:1
Justice [5] - 3975:33,
4028:12, 4047:47,
4048:36, 4052:27
justly [2] - 4022:13,
4022:15
K
Karen [1] - 4028:33
keep [5] - 4043:39,
4046:2, 4046:41,
4047:19, 4050:35
Keith [1] - 4046:15
kept [1] - 4029:37
KERNAGHAN [8] -
4001:4, 4001:6,
4002:35, 4028:28,
4036:14, 4036:18,
4036:20, 4038:7
Kernaghan [4] -
4001:10, 4036:20,
4038:9, 4045:42
kicked [1] - 4055:33
kids [2] - 4030:26,
4031:27
kilometre [1] -
4053:36
kind [3] - 4044:35,
4048:42, 4066:41
kinds [3] - 4026:11,
4033:46, 4057:31
kitchen [1] - 4053:30
knowledge [42] -
3992:43, 4007:9,
4007:13, 4007:14,
4007:28, 4007:30,
4007:35, 4008:9,
4009:1, 4011:20,
4013:31, 4013:44,
4013:47, 4014:3,
4014:10, 4014:16,
4014:47, 4015:1,
4015:4, 4015:7,
4015:8, 4015:20,
4015:27, 4015:35,
4015:39, 4015:43,
4015:45, 4016:3,
4016:14, 4030:22,
4035:4, 4037:17,
4045:38, 4046:1,
4053:21, 4054:3,
4054:5, 4055:24,
4056:29, 4057:24,
4070:5, 4077:25
known [6] - 4024:28,
4027:11, 4039:42,
4072:2, 4076:40,
4077:17
Kostka [55] - 4012:6,
4015:14, 4028:34,
4028:39, 4029:1,
4029:9, 4029:47,
4030:6, 4030:25,
4030:31, 4030:39,
4031:32, 4032:10,
4032:30, 4035:2,
4046:23, 4047:1,
4056:30, 4057:7,
4057:23, 4057:33,
4057:42, 4058:6,
4058:21, 4058:39,
4058:44, 4059:44,
4060:4, 4060:16,
4060:28, 4060:33,
4061:12, 4061:33,
4061:39, 4063:20,
4065:40, 4066:12,
4067:9, 4068:11,
4069:6, 4069:7,
4071:40, 4072:9,
4072:41, 4073:35,
4073:43, 4074:6,
4074:18, 4075:19,
4077:12, 4077:19,
4077:21, 4078:4,
4078:5, 4078:8
Kostka's [1] - 4058:30
Koz [3] - 4072:9,
4072:27, 4073:9
Kuring [2] - 3981:20
Kuring-gai [2] -
3981:20
L
LAE [1] - 4020:3
LAE] [1] - 4020:11
LAF] [1] - 4018:38
LAI [1] - 4019:5
land [3] - 3988:26,
4035:15, 4035:24
land-holding [1] -
4035:15
language [3] -
4001:25, 4001:34,
4046:46
large [1] - 4032:29
last [19] - 4002:38,
4005:40, 4008:13,
4016:18, 4017:45,
4019:35, 4020:38,
4021:27, 4033:3,
4040:32, 4053:10,
4056:2, 4059:9,
4062:23, 4065:26,
4066:15, 4070:4,
4071:40, 4077:5
lastly [2] - 4073:37,
4076:36
late [1] - 4021:29
lateline [1] - 4050:47
law [5] - 4010:42,
4022:19, 4022:37,
4035:32, 4057:8
lawsuit [1] - 4033:24
lawyer [15] - 3999:45,
3999:47, 4012:20,
4012:45, 4014:43,
4025:7, 4025:8,
4025:24, 4043:1,
4043:5, 4044:37,
4045:5, 4046:14,
4048:2, 4049:39
lawyer's [1] - 4044:40
lawyers [30] -
4012:38, 4012:42,
4012:44, 4013:4,
4013:25, 4013:42,
4014:2, 4020:22,
4021:20, 4025:7,
4034:6, 4034:7,
4034:9, 4034:10,
4034:11, 4043:21,
4043:22, 4044:46,
4045:15, 4045:18,
4045:28, 4047:39,
4051:14, 4051:33,
4051:40, 4052:27,
4056:34, 4057:20
Lawyers [1] - 4055:37
LAWYERS [1] -
4056:14
lay [4] - 4019:17,
4019:35, 4019:37,
4030:18
lead [6] - 4012:47,
4013:3, 4013:7,
4034:11, 4036:31,
4036:32
leadership [7] -
4007:16, 4007:33,
4014:12, 4014:15,
4015:20, 4015:28,
4024:7
learn [2] - 3979:39,
4024:14
learned [1] - 4045:41
learning [1] - 4025:6
least [6] - 3989:5,
4006:6, 4006:7,
4017:7, 4019:8,
4037:42
leave [6] - 3976:11,
3993:17, 4005:17,
4038:24, 4067:29,
4080:4
leaving [7] - 3980:3,
3983:7, 3986:13,
3989:8, 3989:12,
4010:30, 4068:26
led [2] - 4057:10,
4061:12
left [16] - 3979:46,
3983:4, 3983:26,
3983:45, 3984:4,
3984:13, 3988:47,
3989:5, 3989:7,
3990:26, 3992:15,
3993:15, 3993:23,
4025:18, 4025:19
legal [25] - 3996:12,
3996:15, 4010:41,
4011:8, 4011:10,
4011:14, 4011:47,
4020:20, 4020:37,
4021:11, 4021:16,
4021:32, 4022:1,
4023:16, 4023:46,
4035:13, 4035:16,
4035:18, 4042:17,
4044:32, 4045:31,
4046:42, 4047:20,
4047:28, 4051:24
lengthy [2] - 4075:31,
4076:20
less [3] - 4014:33,
4032:21, 4059:31
letter [19] - 3996:33,
3997:11, 3997:12,
3997:21, 3999:42,
3999:44, 4000:3,
4000:15, 4000:36,
4013:11, 4014:2,
4056:23, 4057:19,
4057:40, 4057:46,
4058:2, 4060:11,
4071:31, 4071:46
letters [7] - 4000:3,
4000:8, 4000:32,
4000:39, 4051:14,
4051:24, 4056:20
Level [1] - 3975:22
level [5] - 3979:43,
4015:6, 4025:23,
4029:18, 4037:22
levels [2] - 3979:44,
4046:33
liability [4] - 4009:14,
4012:9, 4047:3,
4047:6
life [3] - 3995:8,
3995:12, 3995:40
light [4] - 4022:7,
4046:3, 4060:38,
4070:3
likely [5] - 4003:13,
4020:2, 4024:23,
4027:43, 4057:32
limit [1] - 4039:17
limitation [2] -
4042:24, 4050:23
line [16] - 4036:29,
4046:22, 4046:29,
4046:39, 4047:17,
4049:13, 4049:28,
4050:1, 4050:32,
4061:9, 4065:13,
4065:22, 4065:30,
4066:15, 4072:22
lines [3] - 4049:32,
4061:42, 4076:38
linking [1] - 4075:19
Lismore [4] - 3978:24,
3979:46, 3994:30,
3994:34
list [7] - 3977:22,
3978:47, 3983:12,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT12
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

3998:11, 4015:3,
4019:24, 4019:28
listed [2] - 4059:19,
4063:43
literally [1] - 4005:45
litigation [18] -
4009:44, 4010:3,
4010:4, 4010:33,
4011:15, 4011:33,
4020:35, 4020:36,
4020:46, 4021:25,
4025:45, 4033:21,
4033:41, 4034:12,
4035:26, 4044:13,
4052:10, 4052:13
live [6] - 3995:8,
3995:12, 3995:40,
4014:24, 4014:27,
4071:7
lived [5] - 3985:26,
3990:46, 3993:11,
3993:13, 3993:20
living [7] - 3982:16,
3983:23, 3993:8,
3993:32, 3996:23,
4009:41, 4053:22
location [1] - 3991:44
long-term [2] -
4032:22, 4058:13
look [15] - 4017:45,
4018:30, 4024:11,
4024:14, 4024:17,
4037:4, 4041:38,
4048:41, 4055:20,
4055:30, 4055:42,
4057:44, 4062:44,
4076:27, 4077:41
looked [2] - 4015:4,
4030:43
looking [8] - 3983:13,
4001:26, 4020:39,
4027:27, 4030:36,
4034:37, 4064:15,
4072:21
looks [1] - 4027:28
lose [1] - 4014:4
loss [2] - 4022:32,
4024:31
lost [1] - 4005:1
Louis [4] - 3994:14,
3994:16, 3994:21,
3996:24
low [1] - 4032:21
loyalty [2] - 4038:38,
4038:40
Loyola [1] - 3993:30
lunch [1] - 4070:12
luncheon [1] -
4038:13
M
Maconachie [1] -
4066:2
Macquarie [1] -
3975:22
main [2] - 4031:25,
4043:17
maintain [1] - 4025:22
major [3] - 4013:43,
4057:22, 4059:16
man [4] - 4029:15,
4032:20, 4032:21,
4039:12
management [1] -
3981:24
Marcellin [2] -
3979:19, 4028:35
March [2] - 3979:2,
3979:4
Marco [6] - 4038:24,
4038:32, 4047:31,
4048:7, 4052:20
Marist [54] - 3977:11,
3977:35, 3977:47,
3989:33, 3990:17,
4003:16, 4009:44,
4010:14, 4014:19,
4014:36, 4014:37,
4014:47, 4015:21,
4016:17, 4016:30,
4018:27, 4020:35,
4020:45, 4027:19,
4028:40, 4029:10,
4030:36, 4030:43,
4030:44, 4031:33,
4031:36, 4032:11,
4032:13, 4032:38,
4034:23, 4035:11,
4035:13, 4035:14,
4035:18, 4035:23,
4035:29, 4038:33,
4039:25, 4047:3,
4047:46, 4048:35,
4052:26, 4052:32,
4053:13, 4053:18,
4053:26, 4053:38,
4054:4, 4058:6,
4059:33, 4060:11,
4060:14, 4061:14,
4077:21
MARIST [1] - 4016:42
Marists [3] - 4073:17,
4073:31, 4073:33
Mark [3] - 3999:16,
3999:18, 3999:26
marked [1] - 4055:1
Mary [1] - 3984:32
master [1] - 4029:15
material [11] -
4015:38, 4016:34,
4047:33, 4047:40,
4048:7, 4048:24,
4052:21, 4070:24,
4070:34, 4071:30,
4076:27
materials [1] -
4036:36
matter [27] - 3976:40,
3986:6, 4012:45,
4016:10, 4022:8,
4023:38, 4023:47,
4025:18, 4032:1,
4032:4, 4034:12,
4036:15, 4037:8,
4039:5, 4039:8,
4040:12, 4040:15,
4040:34, 4045:24,
4050:35, 4052:19,
4053:6, 4055:9,
4055:32, 4067:30,
4070:20, 4076:24
matters [34] - 3984:18,
3987:34, 4003:19,
4003:26, 4017:11,
4018:42, 4020:21,
4020:47, 4021:28,
4021:30, 4021:43,
4022:5, 4022:12,
4022:41, 4024:9,
4024:13, 4024:46,
4026:25, 4027:37,
4030:17, 4030:36,
4033:21, 4033:46,
4036:6, 4040:36,
4045:22, 4045:27,
4052:3, 4052:30,
4059:23, 4070:27,
4070:31, 4076:15,
4078:18
McGlinchey [5] -
4028:30, 4028:32,
4028:33, 4036:12,
4036:28
mean [23] - 3979:42,
3986:6, 3989:4,
3997:3, 4007:16,
4012:33, 4014:19,
4015:12, 4015:33,
4021:34, 4021:43,
4022:15, 4022:32,
4023:27, 4023:37,
4027:26, 4031:42,
4034:14, 4039:36,
4044:7, 4044:11,
4044:27, 4047:43
meaning [2] -
4029:33, 4044:8
meaningful [1] -
4012:43
means [5] - 3997:4,
4020:46, 4026:5,
4042:17, 4044:23
meant [5] - 4014:4,
4015:36, 4034:36,
4044:34, 4048:20
measures [1] -
4030:11
mechanism [1] -
4035:40
media [1] - 4040:28
mediated [6] -
4012:12, 4012:23,
4012:30, 4012:33,
4017:35, 4045:23
mediation [13] -
4018:22, 4022:16,
4022:17, 4044:43,
4049:46, 4050:32,
4050:37, 4051:2,
4051:3, 4051:35,
4051:44, 4052:8,
4052:11
mediations [2] -
4022:28, 4022:36
medication [1] -
4071:8
meet [7] - 3984:22,
3984:25, 3984:35,
3984:38, 3987:17,
3990:27, 3990:30
meeting [43] -
3983:18, 3983:21,
3984:34, 3984:45,
3985:1, 3986:10,
3986:30, 3986:41,
3986:47, 3987:8,
3987:12, 3987:14,
3987:16, 3987:18,
3987:21, 3988:21,
3989:3, 3989:7,
3990:1, 4002:2,
4002:6, 4042:3,
4051:38, 4052:15,
4052:31, 4052:36,
4052:40, 4052:43,
4060:43, 4061:19,
4061:32, 4062:13,
4062:29, 4063:10,
4064:20, 4064:24,
4064:33, 4064:42,
4064:44, 4066:11,
4078:4
MEETING [1] - 4065:8
Meeting [1] - 4066:1
meetings [6] -
3987:10, 3987:24,
3987:34, 4040:35,
4064:10, 4064:12
Melbourne [6] -
3982:14, 3982:19,
4026:27, 4026:28,
4027:2, 4027:12
Member [1] - 3975:33
member [2] - 4033:26,
4064:8
MEMBER [58] -
3976:1, 3976:10,
3997:46, 4002:38,
4003:1, 4003:5,
4003:21, 4004:5,
4004:9, 4004:16,
4004:21, 4005:3,
4005:12, 4005:20,
4005:25, 4005:31,
4006:11, 4006:17,
4006:34, 4006:41,
4016:26, 4016:40,
4028:20, 4028:24,
4038:9, 4038:13,
4038:18, 4038:27,
4043:37, 4048:30,
4054:25, 4054:39,
4055:1, 4056:11,
4065:6, 4069:35,
4069:40, 4070:36,
4070:41, 4071:1,
4071:14, 4071:20,
4071:25, 4072:17,
4075:38, 4075:45,
4076:5, 4076:9,
4076:23, 4076:34,
4077:31, 4077:41,
4078:15, 4079:26,
4079:38, 4079:44,
4080:7, 4080:16
members [5] -
4043:18, 4063:35,
4064:9, 4064:11,
4064:16
memory [5] - 4047:32,
4048:23, 4058:12,
4058:13, 4079:22
men [2] - 4021:25,
4053:28
mental [3] - 4057:11,
4058:34, 4059:6
mentioned [13] -
3988:1, 4005:35,
4024:12, 4034:5,
4038:46, 4050:25,
4052:16, 4067:5,
4070:18, 4072:27,
4072:29, 4073:29,
4077:17
mentioning [2] -
3999:7, 4077:12
merely [1] - 4080:13
met [8] - 3984:23,
3986:35, 3986:36,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT13
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

3987:31, 3991:19,
3991:36, 4001:43,
4001:46
metres [1] - 4053:36
Michael [3] - 4011:24,
4011:28, 4011:29
mid [7] - 3993:2,
3993:20, 3993:22,
3993:24, 4003:6,
4004:10, 4004:21
mid-1970s [1] -
3977:32
mid-1980s [1] -
3980:44
mid-1991 [1] - 3993:40
mid-July [2] -
3993:22, 3993:24
mid-morning [3] -
4003:6, 4004:10,
4004:21
mid-November [2] -
3993:2, 3993:20
might [16] - 3983:31,
3995:35, 4001:35,
4003:9, 4005:23,
4006:13, 4016:22,
4024:31, 4028:12,
4030:7, 4036:37,
4051:25, 4070:14,
4074:30, 4078:44,
4080:12
million [2] - 4018:6,
4021:16
mind [3] - 4023:39,
4040:43, 4072:14
minimum [2] -
3976:31, 3976:45
ministry [1] - 4053:8
minute [6] - 4008:12,
4061:16, 4061:41,
4071:41, 4077:18,
4078:11
MINUTES [1] - 4065:8
minutes [25] - 4007:9,
4007:39, 4008:1,
4008:2, 4008:10,
4008:12, 4008:27,
4008:34, 4008:37,
4008:43, 4009:26,
4042:44, 4061:5,
4061:8, 4061:32,
4062:24, 4062:28,
4062:44, 4063:16,
4063:33, 4064:7,
4064:16, 4064:27,
4064:32, 4064:44
misconduct [1] -
4001:23
missed [1] - 3980:28
missing [1] - 4068:24
mistake [1] - 4032:36
Mittagong [4] -
4009:37, 4053:14,
4053:18, 4053:39
mixed [1] - 4053:27
mmm-hmm [1] -
4008:31
molestation [1] -
4036:32
moment [24] - 3989:2,
4004:19, 4023:1,
4024:3, 4026:5,
4026:11, 4026:12,
4026:13, 4026:15,
4031:9, 4031:22,
4031:24, 4031:27,
4032:13, 4032:20,
4032:26, 4038:5,
4039:6, 4040:38,
4047:13, 4048:41,
4058:17, 4070:29,
4071:6
moments [1] -
4050:25
Monahan [17] -
4013:11, 4013:15,
4043:5, 4045:32,
4056:23, 4057:31,
4057:35, 4058:1,
4059:3, 4059:14,
4059:45, 4060:9,
4071:31, 4071:32,
4072:8, 4074:6,
4074:18
Monahan's [2] -
4073:44, 4074:4
Monday [1] - 4064:1
money [3] - 4019:7,
4026:40, 4039:33
moneys [1] - 4023:15
monitor [2] - 4004:36,
4009:21
month [2] - 3979:18,
4010:15
months [6] - 3984:5,
3992:12, 3992:13,
3992:35, 3992:41,
4021:27
moral [2] - 4012:9,
4049:35
morally [1] - 4011:39
morning [15] - 3976:1,
3976:3, 3976:10,
4003:6, 4004:10,
4004:21, 4005:45,
4053:11, 4054:8,
4055:40, 4056:17,
4056:21, 4070:6,
4070:7, 4070:19
Mortdale [1] - 4073:11
Mosman [2] - 3977:11,
3977:16
most [5] - 4003:13,
4008:44, 4027:43,
4048:26
move [9] - 4031:31,
4041:5, 4045:36,
4049:46, 4051:42,
4052:7, 4067:3,
4076:32, 4077:5
moved [3] - 3996:24,
4007:7, 4053:35
moves [2] - 4031:39,
4031:45
moving [3] - 3978:34,
3999:38, 4032:37
multiplication [1] -
4020:16
multiply [1] - 4019:46
Murphy [1] - 4074:21
Murray [1] - 3975:35
must [3] - 3988:18,
4031:46, 4068:24
N
name [22] - 3976:17,
3985:16, 3985:19,
3985:22, 3998:5,
3998:25, 3998:27,
4001:10, 4002:12,
4019:6, 4019:28,
4028:32, 4032:14,
4033:24, 4035:17,
4035:22, 4036:20,
4037:35, 4038:31,
4041:36, 4048:36,
4062:40
named [4] - 4021:32,
4021:34, 4021:35,
4035:14
namely [4] - 4055:25,
4064:18, 4077:16,
4077:17
names [3] - 3998:16,
4018:30, 4064:39
National [1] - 4026:13
nature [6] - 3981:47,
4010:10, 4022:43,
4024:34, 4031:23,
4060:18
nearly [3] - 4020:32,
4021:21, 4055:38
necessarily [3] -
4012:29, 4012:39,
4048:6
necessary [3] -
4004:3, 4028:18,
4076:20
need [16] - 3979:36,
4002:44, 4003:41,
4006:2, 4022:47,
4029:29, 4029:30,
4046:41, 4047:4,
4047:19, 4048:34,
4054:39, 4054:42,
4061:40, 4078:44
needed [2] - 4034:35,
4039:36
needs [9] - 4020:16,
4022:46, 4023:11,
4024:27, 4024:28,
4024:30, 4024:34,
4026:6, 4071:7
negligence [2] -
4012:14, 4012:22
negotiation [1] -
4080:13
negotiations [3] -
4012:34, 4013:1,
4013:8
never [6] - 3985:26,
3985:27, 3987:22,
4068:14, 4072:27,
4074:8
nevertheless [1] -
4015:19
new [5] - 3995:12,
4005:46, 4025:5,
4026:9, 4070:8
New [8] - 3976:29,
3979:20, 3995:1,
3995:28, 3995:38,
3996:2, 3996:19,
4035:31
next [25] - 3984:12,
3992:9, 3992:46,
3993:35, 4003:13,
4003:29, 4013:41,
4027:43, 4042:14,
4049:32, 4050:1,
4053:6, 4058:16,
4063:47, 4064:33,
4066:35, 4068:10,
4068:18, 4073:7,
4073:15, 4073:44,
4074:27, 4074:33,
4074:36
night [2] - 4005:40,
4070:4
no-one [2] - 3977:27,
3997:34
nobody [1] - 4033:16
nods) [1] - 4036:39
non [1] - 3996:44
non-teaching [1] -
3996:44
none [2] - 4045:22,
4076:14
normal [9] - 3977:18,
3977:20, 4029:18,
4029:20, 4034:39,
4035:20, 4041:22,
4045:13, 4064:34
normally [3] -
4033:18, 4036:2,
4064:12
north [1] - 3988:43
North [2] - 3977:6,
3977:16
note [19] - 4030:16,
4032:44, 4033:8,
4033:26, 4038:11,
4048:15, 4048:47,
4049:3, 4050:17,
4059:44, 4060:9,
4060:27, 4066:14,
4069:23, 4069:24,
4071:47, 4073:42,
4073:44, 4074:5
noted [2] - 4049:22,
4049:24
notes [11] - 4020:39,
4056:3, 4058:39,
4059:45, 4065:38,
4065:45, 4066:1,
4066:11, 4071:36,
4071:39, 4071:45
nothing [11] -
3997:44, 4002:35,
4006:14, 4008:27,
4009:6, 4018:41,
4024:4, 4036:12,
4048:28, 4071:15,
4079:24
notice [4] - 4055:14,
4055:37, 4056:1,
4070:4
NOTICE [1] - 4056:13
notification [1] -
4015:5
notified [4] - 4005:39,
4073:22, 4073:38,
4080:7
noting [1] - 4014:36
November [7] -
3976:29, 3977:24,
3979:18, 3992:38,
3993:2, 3993:20,
4008:14
novitiate [1] - 4075:25
number [19] -
3979:28, 4003:15,
4007:43, 4008:30,
4015:4, 4015:10,
4023:10, 4027:26,
4030:38, 4032:30,
4040:6, 4040:22,
4048:46, 4059:16,
4059:32, 4065:38,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT14
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4067:12, 4067:23,
4068:43
numbers [2] -
4027:27, 4040:35
nursing [2] - 4039:28
O
O'Brien [1] - 4038:25
o'clock [3] - 4005:40,
4070:4, 4071:7
O'CONNELL [8] -
4038:23, 4038:29,
4038:31, 4043:45,
4045:27, 4048:22,
4048:28, 4070:45
O'Connell [7] -
4038:31, 4048:30,
4048:40, 4050:21,
4052:19, 4069:43,
4070:41
O'Dea [5] - 4033:31,
4043:2, 4060:10,
4060:27, 4071:31
O'Dea's [2] - 4020:26,
4020:31
oath [1] - 4006:43
object [2] - 4077:27
objection [2] - 4005:5,
4006:4
Oblate [2] - 4067:22,
4068:47
oblate [1] - 4073:18
obligation [1] -
4039:26
obligations [4] -
4010:40, 4010:45,
4010:46, 4023:46
observations [3] -
4030:16, 4037:45,
4060:10
observe [2] - 4036:30,
4037:5
observing [1] -
4005:44
obvious [5] - 4010:34,
4029:31, 4033:22,
4034:32, 4048:11
obviously [9] -
4002:41, 4015:7,
4027:8, 4029:15,
4030:9, 4034:30,
4036:43, 4061:35,
4072:9
occasion [5] -
4001:16, 4003:16,
4028:4, 4068:20,
4079:34
occasions [4] -
4012:42, 4067:12,
4067:23, 4068:43
occupation [1] -
3976:17
occurred [7] -
3983:46, 3987:12,
3989:3, 4021:44,
4021:47, 4042:45,
4073:20
occurring [1] -
4013:34
occurs [1] - 4003:35
October [5] - 3977:24,
3992:37, 4052:31,
4052:37, 4052:46
OF [4] - 4055:4,
4056:15, 4065:8,
4065:9
offence [1] - 4061:22
offences [7] -
3976:26, 3994:33,
4029:47, 4030:3,
4030:38, 4039:43,
4039:46
offend [2] - 4029:1,
4029:10
offending [5] - 3982:2,
3985:7, 3985:35,
3994:34, 4002:29
offer [1] - 3986:45
offered [6] - 3980:26,
3980:29, 3980:41,
4036:8, 4042:31,
4050:3
Office [1] - 4026:7
office [4] - 4026:8,
4030:4, 4030:27,
4049:28
often [1] - 3987:17
once [4] - 3991:36,
3991:44, 4046:36,
4047:7
one [73] - 3977:27,
3978:33, 3987:18,
3987:20, 3987:21,
3987:24, 3987:34,
3992:1, 3992:4,
3992:20, 3992:23,
3995:42, 3995:43,
3997:34, 3999:3,
4002:14, 4007:7,
4008:2, 4008:7,
4008:24, 4011:29,
4012:30, 4012:35,
4012:36, 4014:28,
4018:15, 4019:8,
4019:13, 4019:16,
4019:36, 4020:39,
4024:1, 4025:8,
4025:35, 4029:21,
4030:14, 4030:17,
4030:20, 4031:21,
4036:16, 4042:2,
4043:18, 4043:42,
4044:42, 4047:4,
4052:19, 4053:9,
4053:11, 4053:43,
4053:47, 4054:9,
4056:22, 4058:10,
4062:30, 4062:42,
4065:30, 4068:20,
4070:22, 4072:1,
4072:21, 4073:44,
4073:46, 4074:33,
4074:38, 4076:17,
4076:30, 4076:37,
4077:6, 4078:3,
4078:25, 4078:31,
4079:29
ones [6] - 4013:7,
4014:5, 4018:47,
4024:4, 4031:3,
4040:37
ongoing [2] - 4023:11,
4031:15
Ontario [1] - 3988:43
open [3] - 4024:27,
4025:42, 4042:18
opening [1] - 4079:35
openness [1] -
4057:43
operated [2] - 4035:8,
4035:16
operates [2] -
4044:12, 4044:15
opinion [1] - 4002:28
opportunities [1] -
4030:5
opportunity [9] -
4000:33, 4003:28,
4005:34, 4006:21,
4006:29, 4040:33,
4066:22, 4070:12,
4070:31
opposed [1] - 4014:20
option [2] - 3995:42,
3995:43
options [1] - 3995:37
oral [1] - 4076:21
orally [1] - 4003:27
order [57] - 3981:26,
3981:29, 3983:42,
3984:4, 3987:46,
3988:4, 3988:6,
3993:37, 3994:21,
3996:20, 3997:25,
4002:28, 4010:3,
4010:9, 4011:38,
4013:6, 4015:20,
4019:12, 4020:20,
4020:21, 4021:24,
4021:27, 4024:7,
4024:21, 4024:22,
4025:10, 4025:38,
4026:21, 4027:21,
4027:37, 4028:11,
4031:33, 4031:36,
4037:2, 4037:3,
4037:39, 4037:41,
4038:2, 4038:46,
4039:3, 4039:15,
4039:25, 4039:34,
4039:35, 4039:36,
4039:37, 4039:39,
4040:8, 4040:44,
4040:45, 4045:37,
4046:1, 4078:25,
4078:31, 4078:38,
4078:40
ordered [4] - 4050:37,
4051:3, 4051:44,
4052:8
orders [1] - 4003:15
ordinarily [2] - 4064:9,
4064:43
ordinary [2] - 3984:41,
4044:8
organisation [2] -
3994:18, 4063:39
originally [1] - 4042:1
originating [1] -
4034:15
otherwise [8] -
4004:41, 4005:14,
4009:21, 4010:10,
4039:39, 4079:44,
4080:8, 4080:16
Othmar [4] - 4062:5,
4063:11, 4064:28,
4072:30
ourselves [4] -
4014:5, 4015:30,
4033:18, 4033:19
out-of-court [3] -
4017:34, 4018:1,
4018:21
outlined [1] - 4035:35
outside [1] - 3979:11
over-the-top [1] -
4039:31
overseas [4] -
3987:28, 4007:18,
4032:30, 4075:12
oversight [2] - 4027:7,
4033:2
own [13] - 4023:39,
4029:23, 4029:35,
4031:6, 4031:15,
4031:17, 4032:5,
4032:22, 4034:6,
4040:38, 4040:41,
4064:7, 4066:21
P
paedophile [2] -
4057:9, 4059:5
paedophiles [2] -
4040:7, 4040:44
page [33] - 3998:15,
4013:41, 4019:4,
4019:15, 4019:16,
4036:29, 4041:43,
4044:24, 4044:26,
4049:8, 4050:42,
4053:10, 4056:3,
4060:42, 4061:9,
4061:42, 4063:21,
4063:29, 4065:11,
4065:13, 4065:16,
4066:14, 4066:35,
4067:3, 4068:10,
4072:11, 4072:12,
4072:21, 4072:22,
4072:23, 4074:5,
4075:42
pages [7] - 4016:29,
4016:35, 4061:34,
4062:24, 4063:17,
4071:47, 4073:45
paid [5] - 3981:26,
3981:29, 4020:20,
4021:15, 4026:35
paper [3] - 4026:15,
4028:7, 4028:13
papers [3] - 3993:36,
3993:42, 4024:12
paragraph [47] -
3998:42, 3998:43,
3998:46, 4007:4,
4007:31, 4007:36,
4008:19, 4009:5,
4009:19, 4011:37,
4012:5, 4013:25,
4013:27, 4013:42,
4014:30, 4017:15,
4041:38, 4042:37,
4056:27, 4056:29,
4056:34, 4056:45,
4057:5, 4057:19,
4057:40, 4058:4,
4058:9, 4058:17,
4058:27, 4058:37,
4058:39, 4059:3,
4059:9, 4059:10,
4059:42, 4060:9,
4071:32, 4072:25,
4073:7, 4073:15,
4073:30, 4074:5,
4075:5, 4075:24,
4076:37
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT15
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

paragraphs [1] -
4058:16
pardon [4] - 3979:15,
3992:3, 3992:28,
4078:11
parents [2] - 4029:42,
4074:29
Parkinson [5] -
4049:39, 4050:47,
4051:33, 4051:38,
4051:41
Parkinson's [4] -
4049:38, 4050:33,
4050:35, 4052:6
part [20] - 4003:35,
4013:21, 4026:43,
4030:32, 4039:34,
4039:35, 4041:3,
4043:17, 4044:42,
4047:7, 4050:28,
4053:26, 4053:33,
4053:37, 4056:30,
4057:41, 4057:47,
4062:25, 4064:20,
4078:27
participated [2] -
3979:18, 4010:17
particular [29] -
4010:27, 4010:30,
4022:5, 4022:8,
4027:4, 4029:19,
4030:22, 4032:46,
4035:13, 4036:9,
4038:4, 4039:31,
4040:39, 4043:45,
4045:9, 4045:24,
4053:33, 4054:9,
4058:4, 4060:42,
4064:13, 4064:25,
4065:27, 4066:14,
4067:4, 4069:12,
4072:11, 4078:46
particularly [6] -
4003:32, 4025:7,
4037:29, 4051:36,
4055:29, 4070:2
parties [3] - 4016:18,
4080:4, 4080:7
partly [1] - 4015:23
parts [3] - 4046:21,
4049:3, 4072:10
party [1] - 4044:16
pass [1] - 4077:5
passages [1] -
4050:21
past [3] - 4037:4,
4045:43, 4047:35
Pat [1] - 4043:5
patently [1] - 4043:11
Patrick [1] - 4045:32
pay [3] - 4014:20,
4015:21, 4021:11
payment [12] -
4017:25, 4017:31,
4017:42, 4018:12,
4019:9, 4019:39,
4020:6, 4021:19,
4023:4, 4025:30,
4027:12, 4036:3
payments [4] -
4017:38, 4018:5,
4020:11, 4027:22
payouts [1] - 4020:17
Pearce [2] - 3978:1,
4035:13
Pell [3] - 4035:19,
4042:24, 4050:23
Penshurst [5] -
4016:4, 4067:21,
4069:1, 4074:15,
4078:6
pension [3] - 4039:17,
4039:21, 4039:29
people [33] - 3978:47,
4012:10, 4023:10,
4023:22, 4024:2,
4024:17, 4024:27,
4025:42, 4026:2,
4027:32, 4029:38,
4030:1, 4031:22,
4031:25, 4033:34,
4035:42, 4036:9,
4036:37, 4037:4,
4037:14, 4037:25,
4042:2, 4044:38,
4044:40, 4051:30,
4057:36, 4063:10,
4064:9, 4064:11,
4064:44, 4067:4,
4074:3
people's [1] - 4036:31
per [1] - 4042:32
perceive [2] - 4078:23,
4078:29
perhaps [20] -
4002:42, 4003:5,
4003:8, 4004:33,
4004:42, 4005:23,
4006:7, 4007:4,
4010:13, 4010:22,
4011:23, 4012:3,
4013:10, 4027:46,
4069:8, 4069:46,
4070:26, 4073:32,
4073:37
period [23] - 3980:18,
3988:15, 3988:17,
3992:12, 4007:14,
4007:18, 4007:21,
4007:29, 4007:40,
4009:32, 4029:2,
4029:11, 4030:30,
4030:31, 4032:31,
4043:30, 4053:23,
4053:25, 4054:2,
4055:16, 4055:25,
4055:39, 4079:5
permitted [3] -
4059:43, 4070:33,
4079:34
person [20] - 3983:8,
3995:31, 4002:12,
4008:29, 4018:15,
4023:31, 4026:35,
4026:43, 4032:26,
4033:35, 4033:36,
4034:41, 4037:20,
4043:20, 4044:16,
4045:12, 4045:23,
4045:29, 4053:34
personal [3] -
3979:19, 4037:21,
4040:41
personally [2] -
4045:2, 4045:34
personnel [1] -
3979:25
persons [2] - 4040:45,
4045:8
Peter [2] - 4033:26,
4038:25
Philip [2] - 3985:23,
3985:25
phone [6] - 3992:44,
3994:6, 3994:9,
3994:11, 3994:13,
3994:14
phoned [2] - 3978:33,
3994:47
physical [1] - 3979:10
pick [1] - 3988:22
picked [3] - 3988:46,
3989:4, 3990:37
picking [1] - 4056:29
piece [2] - 4051:39,
4051:46
pieces [1] - 4077:25
Place [1] - 3975:23
place [21] - 3976:12,
3980:17, 3983:31,
3984:26, 3984:28,
3984:31, 3988:42,
3990:34, 4009:7,
4026:2, 4030:11,
4030:36, 4030:38,
4031:8, 4031:11,
4039:38, 4052:25,
4060:19, 4078:24,
4078:30
places [1] - 4030:3
placing [1] - 4058:38
plaintiff [1] - 4033:42
plaintiffs [3] -
4034:18, 4035:3,
4049:39
plane [2] - 3990:40,
3990:41
play [2] - 4042:10,
4049:45
playing [1] - 4045:9
pleaded [1] - 3976:25
pleadings [1] -
4034:14
plenty [1] - 4040:32
plus [1] - 3997:4
pocket [1] - 4015:40
point [19] - 3980:5,
3983:25, 4005:46,
4010:25, 4010:27,
4010:32, 4010:37,
4045:29, 4048:46,
4049:27, 4056:34,
4058:5, 4060:12,
4060:27, 4060:32,
4070:8, 4074:24,
4076:32, 4079:40
points [2] - 4045:29,
4048:42
police [6] - 3984:18,
3985:3, 3985:32,
3987:47, 3988:5,
3997:31
policeman [1] -
3985:31
policies [5] - 4003:14,
4027:36, 4031:6,
4031:15, 4031:17
Porters [1] - 4055:37
PORTERS [1] -
4056:14
position [41] -
3979:46, 3980:4,
3980:25, 3980:26,
3980:29, 3980:39,
3980:41, 3981:8,
3981:13, 3981:26,
3981:29, 3996:15,
3997:8, 3997:37,
3998:30, 4003:3,
4004:47, 4005:36,
4007:29, 4010:35,
4010:37, 4011:17,
4011:39, 4022:12,
4036:38, 4037:17,
4041:7, 4049:15,
4049:21, 4049:38,
4050:15, 4050:17,
4050:24, 4050:28,
4050:33, 4050:35,
4069:30, 4070:2,
4070:17, 4070:29,
4070:33
positions [3] -
4007:24, 4029:40,
4037:5
possibilities [1] -
4070:32
possibility [1] -
4070:23
possible [8] -
4030:25, 4030:30,
4030:34, 4035:44,
4051:25, 4051:28,
4051:43, 4052:7
post [3] - 4021:47,
4047:28
practical [1] - 4006:3
practice [6] - 4005:42,
4006:14, 4007:6,
4025:26, 4064:23,
4064:34
practices [3] -
4003:14, 4027:36,
4028:2
pray [2] - 4067:14,
4068:45
preamble [1] - 3985:9
preceding [1] -
4019:16
precisely [1] - 4060:33
predecessors [2] -
4031:46, 4032:1
preface [1] - 4029:7
preference [1] -
4070:16
preparation [2] -
4045:27, 4063:38
Preparatory [1] -
4063:46
prepared [2] -
4008:17, 4071:36
preparing [1] -
4013:21
presence [1] -
4079:10
present [17] - 3980:32,
3981:5, 3984:45,
4004:36, 4010:17,
4030:45, 4032:10,
4032:12, 4042:2,
4043:1, 4052:25,
4052:28, 4063:10,
4064:19, 4064:32,
4072:8, 4074:4
presented [1] -
4063:37
Presiding [1] -
3975:33
PRESIDING [58] -
3976:1, 3976:10,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT16
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

3997:46, 4002:38,
4003:1, 4003:5,
4003:21, 4004:5,
4004:9, 4004:16,
4004:21, 4005:3,
4005:12, 4005:20,
4005:25, 4005:31,
4006:11, 4006:17,
4006:34, 4006:41,
4016:26, 4016:40,
4028:20, 4028:24,
4038:9, 4038:13,
4038:18, 4038:27,
4043:37, 4048:30,
4054:25, 4054:39,
4055:1, 4056:11,
4065:6, 4069:35,
4069:40, 4070:36,
4070:41, 4071:1,
4071:14, 4071:20,
4071:25, 4072:17,
4075:38, 4075:45,
4076:5, 4076:9,
4076:23, 4076:34,
4077:31, 4077:41,
4078:15, 4079:26,
4079:38, 4079:44,
4080:7, 4080:16
presumably [9] -
4059:14, 4065:46,
4066:7, 4072:46,
4073:35, 4074:40,
4075:9, 4075:19
presume [2] -
3982:34, 3984:39
presumption [1] -
4039:10
presumptions [1] -
4075:32
pretty [3] - 4046:35,
4047:14, 4076:47
prevented [1] -
4023:32
previous [7] -
3977:24, 3978:9,
4023:25, 4055:31,
4060:17, 4065:15,
4075:2
previously [2] -
3976:11, 4040:7
priest [1] - 4067:22
priest...Brother [1] -
4073:19
primarily [1] - 4024:34
primary [9] - 3977:6,
3977:10, 3977:15,
3977:16, 3977:36,
3997:3, 3997:4,
3998:32, 4028:34
Primary [6] - 3977:11,
3978:12, 3978:24,
3998:10, 3999:14,
3999:31
principal [11] -
3985:14, 3985:19,
3985:29, 3985:30,
3985:37, 3987:5,
3996:44, 3996:45,
3997:38, 3999:14,
4015:5
print [2] - 4053:8,
4053:12
print-out [2] - 4053:8,
4053:12
priority [3] - 4040:19,
4040:36, 4040:40
prison [1] - 3977:2
problem [5] - 4068:38,
4073:23, 4073:38,
4075:14, 4078:6
problems [4] -
4058:38, 4066:22,
4067:13, 4071:9
procedures [7] -
4003:14, 4027:36,
4028:2, 4034:40,
4041:22, 4078:24,
4078:30
proceed [2] - 4038:27,
4052:12
proceeding [2] -
4005:14, 4011:16
proceedings [14] -
4004:36, 4004:41,
4011:47, 4012:34,
4021:12, 4025:47,
4044:43, 4047:34,
4048:9, 4048:25,
4054:9, 4054:32,
4071:10, 4080:10
PROCEEDINGS [1] -
4055:5
process [32] -
3977:20, 3977:22,
3977:43, 3978:19,
3978:31, 3978:45,
3978:46, 4012:11,
4012:28, 4012:36,
4022:3, 4022:43,
4022:44, 4023:4,
4023:5, 4023:20,
4023:25, 4025:6,
4025:31, 4025:45,
4026:2, 4026:11,
4026:17, 4027:4,
4034:38, 4035:35,
4035:38, 4059:37,
4068:22, 4079:39,
4080:12
processes [7] -
4012:36, 4022:16,
4022:17, 4026:13,
4078:24, 4078:30,
4078:43
produce [1] - 4055:37
PRODUCE [1] -
4056:13
produced [4] - 4017:9,
4017:10, 4017:12,
4054:43
production [1] -
4055:38
PRODUCTION [1] -
4056:15
Professional [2] -
4026:6, 4026:14
professional [5] -
4020:26, 4020:31,
4021:3, 4024:13,
4054:6
program [5] - 3983:1,
4009:39, 4032:32,
4050:47, 4064:13
programs [1] -
4009:36
progress [2] -
4018:42, 4066:20
progress" [1] -
4066:16
prohibited [1] -
3979:9
project [3] - 4053:27,
4053:33, 4053:34
promised [1] -
4071:35
promote [1] - 4023:1
proof [1] - 4045:25
propensity [1] -
4014:11
proper [1] - 4021:39
properly [1] - 4078:39
property [1] - 4053:37
proposal [1] - 4014:45
propose [1] - 4003:26
proposed [3] -
4003:17, 4014:36,
4043:41
proposing [2] -
4051:1, 4051:2
proposition [1] -
4037:44
propositions [1] -
4073:32
prospect [1] - 4044:15
prospects [1] -
4014:32
protective [1] -
4030:11
protocol [4] - 4009:5,
4009:6, 4009:12,
4009:16
prove [6] - 4013:44,
4034:35, 4041:20,
4045:8, 4045:23,
4057:24
proven [1] - 4045:19
provide [7] - 4007:30,
4028:13, 4031:4,
4031:9, 4039:3,
4039:15, 4039:37
provided [8] -
3977:31, 3988:45,
4005:41, 4016:30,
4023:5, 4048:8,
4048:24, 4070:23
providing [1] -
4040:37
province [2] -
3980:37, 4031:17
Province [4] - 3995:1,
4007:10, 4007:39,
4008:44
Provincial [25] -
3980:18, 3980:20,
3980:23, 3980:31,
3984:29, 3984:32,
4032:47, 4033:19,
4060:43, 4061:32,
4062:19, 4062:29,
4063:5, 4063:30,
4063:39, 4064:1,
4064:8, 4064:10,
4064:11, 4064:18,
4064:20, 4064:21,
4064:43, 4077:18,
4078:4
provincial [35] -
3978:37, 3980:5,
3980:9, 3980:14,
3980:36, 3981:39,
3982:25, 3982:33,
3982:37, 3982:38,
3984:8, 3984:43,
3995:1, 3995:28,
3995:38, 3996:2,
3996:19, 4003:17,
4007:21, 4011:24,
4011:25, 4011:30,
4029:7, 4032:3,
4043:24, 4049:28,
4051:18, 4060:34,
4061:10, 4063:11,
4065:17, 4077:16,
4077:34, 4078:7,
4079:1
PROVINCIAL [1] -
4065:8
provincials [9] -
4013:31, 4046:26,
4057:25, 4058:7,
4058:10, 4060:17,
4060:20, 4068:11,
4072:29
Provl [1] - 4062:5
pseudonym [5] -
3983:12, 3998:11,
4019:6, 4019:24,
4019:28
pseudonyms [1] -
3998:17
psychiatric [4] -
4047:33, 4048:7,
4048:24, 4052:21
psychiatrist [1] -
4073:10
psychologist [4] -
3982:39, 4002:19,
4067:30, 4068:47
Public [1] - 3975:17
public [6] - 4003:12,
4012:1, 4030:1,
4049:8, 4050:43
publicly [2] - 4025:30,
4027:11
published [2] -
4080:9, 4080:14
punish [1] - 4044:16
punitive [6] - 4012:13,
4012:21, 4022:21,
4022:26, 4041:12,
4044:4
purpose [7] - 3979:23,
3981:41, 3981:42,
3982:1, 3988:38,
3991:27, 4048:8
purposes [2] -
4005:10, 4006:3
put [21] - 3980:35,
3983:47, 3990:34,
4011:42, 4024:37,
4031:17, 4033:3,
4038:1, 4040:27,
4050:20, 4052:19,
4052:20, 4054:13,
4060:39, 4065:26,
4070:14, 4075:41,
4076:15, 4077:15,
4077:38, 4078:1
putting [3] - 4014:42,
4014:45, 4015:40
Q
QC [2] - 4051:41
Queensland [2] -
3977:6, 3977:16
Quentin [2] - 4072:23,
4072:30
questioning [2] -
4004:43, 4030:23
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT17
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

questions [49] -
3998:1, 3998:23,
3998:25, 3999:36,
3999:37, 4001:2,
4001:12, 4006:22,
4015:8, 4015:29,
4015:32, 4015:34,
4015:36, 4015:38,
4015:43, 4015:45,
4016:2, 4016:23,
4028:22, 4028:26,
4028:47, 4033:41,
4033:45, 4036:15,
4038:19, 4038:24,
4040:6, 4040:27,
4040:28, 4045:37,
4045:41, 4048:39,
4052:20, 4053:11,
4054:8, 4054:13,
4055:14, 4055:19,
4060:39, 4062:35,
4065:14, 4065:22,
4065:27, 4069:25,
4070:43, 4070:45,
4078:13, 4079:36
quickly [4] - 4022:13,
4039:42, 4046:36,
4051:26
quite [14] - 4005:44,
4017:16, 4030:25,
4031:40, 4033:4,
4034:25, 4043:30,
4043:40, 4043:47,
4044:11, 4046:25,
4051:39, 4051:42,
4064:8
R
radar [2] - 4029:37,
4029:38
raise [1] - 3999:32
raised [8] - 4037:40,
4054:21, 4055:27,
4055:43, 4062:35,
4067:12, 4067:30,
4068:44
raising [1] - 4015:34
rang [2] - 3994:24,
3995:28
range [1] - 4030:18
rapidly [1] - 4076:32
rather [5] - 4015:40,
4027:3, 4038:40,
4046:47, 4080:13
re [2] - 4022:6,
4078:16
re-examination [1] -
4078:16
re-examining [1] -
4022:6
reach [4] - 4000:40,
4012:11, 4012:23,
4037:3
read [13] - 3998:46,
4007:47, 4013:34,
4013:35, 4015:9,
4015:15, 4019:21,
4019:34, 4032:29,
4034:14, 4064:6,
4065:21, 4076:5
reading [1] - 4075:31
readons [3] - 3998:26,
3998:37, 3999:7
readons' [1] - 3998:30
reads [1] - 4075:19
real [2] - 4014:14,
4015:35
realise [1] - 4004:37
really [10] - 4005:37,
4012:20, 4025:19,
4029:45, 4030:34,
4033:20, 4037:45,
4042:44, 4050:23,
4053:4
Reardons [2] -
3998:26, 3999:7
Reardons' [1] -
3998:30
reason [20] - 3977:27,
3977:39, 3978:4,
3978:15, 3978:27,
3978:42, 3989:12,
4005:35, 4023:23,
4029:16, 4029:17,
4029:19, 4030:22,
4032:45, 4032:46,
4033:20, 4055:24,
4055:32, 4055:34,
4055:46
reasonable [2] -
4050:14, 4061:10
reasonably [2] -
4002:45, 4071:46
reasons [4] - 3989:28,
4055:24, 4070:17,
4070:18
recalled [1] - 4071:16
receipt [1] - 4023:15
receive [6] - 3977:31,
3981:34, 3982:29,
4011:10, 4018:40,
4039:21
received [20] -
3981:31, 3989:32,
3993:42, 3993:45,
3994:2, 3994:13,
3994:14, 3997:12,
3997:21, 4000:8,
4000:14, 4000:36,
4011:8, 4017:25,
4017:34, 4018:12,
4018:18, 4018:21,
4023:4, 4035:45
receives [1] - 4039:17
receiving [1] -
4035:41
recently [3] - 4011:16,
4017:17, 4036:9
recollect [1] - 4001:33
recollection [3] -
4011:14, 4057:12,
4060:33
recollections [2] -
4060:16, 4060:29
record [8] - 4060:40,
4060:41, 4064:32,
4065:33, 4065:47,
4069:6, 4075:40,
4075:41
recorded [1] - 4010:15
recording [2] -
4059:43, 4073:42
records [11] -
4034:26, 4034:31,
4034:44, 4045:14,
4045:16, 4068:11,
4068:35, 4072:36,
4074:6, 4074:18
rectified [1] - 4000:39
rectify [1] - 4000:37
redacted [1] - 4063:28
redactions [2] -
4054:39, 4054:42
reduced [1] - 3976:45
redundant [1] -
3981:13
refer [7] - 3998:17,
4007:5, 4009:19,
4009:29, 4010:47,
4027:11, 4058:33
reference [21] -
4008:24, 4008:26,
4008:29, 4010:18,
4013:24, 4013:37,
4014:30, 4017:20,
4018:31, 4018:34,
4019:4, 4019:16,
4019:34, 4020:41,
4020:45, 4021:43,
4032:29, 4036:25,
4054:42, 4060:47
referred [10] -
3989:37, 4002:28,
4009:8, 4009:26,
4010:24, 4010:32,
4018:47, 4028:7,
4032:15, 4057:40
referring [7] -
4007:36, 4022:26,
4048:16, 4056:39,
4061:5, 4071:39,
4074:3
refers [3] - 3983:8,
4017:15, 4072:9
reflected [1] - 4029:9
reflection [1] -
4031:14
reflections [1] -
4029:14
refuses [1] - 4050:36
regard [4] - 3989:40,
4021:28, 4059:17,
4064:7
regarding [4] -
4008:7, 4012:5,
4014:31, 4037:5
regardless [1] -
4077:34
register [2] - 4026:5,
4030:12
registered [1] -
4035:20
registering [1] -
4012:39
regret [1] - 4034:45
regrettable [1] -
4066:30
regrettably [1] -
4046:25
reinsurers [1] - 4011:2
relate [2] - 3979:43,
4065:38
related [1] - 4040:19
relates [1] - 4016:45
relating [3] - 3976:26,
3979:44, 4045:38
relation [29] - 3982:2,
3987:41, 3999:11,
3999:19, 3999:22,
3999:23, 4001:11,
4003:21, 4014:14,
4014:24, 4014:27,
4016:30, 4018:9,
4018:38, 4020:10,
4020:16, 4020:47,
4023:27, 4041:6,
4043:33, 4047:32,
4048:7, 4051:8,
4052:21, 4061:33,
4070:20, 4072:38,
4077:38, 4078:22
relations [2] - 4049:8,
4050:43
relationship [3] -
4015:24, 4037:33,
4037:34
relationships [1] -
4053:31
release [20] - 3976:32,
4023:15, 4023:17,
4023:18, 4023:37,
4023:44, 4023:45,
4023:46, 4024:8,
4024:16, 4024:45,
4025:11, 4041:16,
4044:34, 4044:41,
4044:42, 4044:47,
4046:42, 4047:20,
4047:29
released [2] - 3977:2,
4071:15
relevant [13] -
4007:14, 4008:35,
4013:31, 4013:47,
4015:1, 4016:18,
4017:10, 4056:29,
4057:24, 4065:46,
4078:24, 4078:30,
4080:4
reliability [3] -
4057:32, 4057:42,
4058:31
reliable [2] - 4008:44,
4057:14
reliance [1] - 4058:38
religious [3] -
3979:25, 4062:40,
4066:32
reluctance [1] -
4030:32
relying [6] - 4013:43,
4014:32, 4015:41,
4057:22, 4059:4,
4059:44
remain [2] - 4004:42,
4029:39
remained [1] -
3996:23
remaining [2] -
4040:43, 4040:44
remains [2] - 4039:14,
4080:2
remember [20] -
3979:24, 3979:37,
3984:26, 3995:10,
3995:11, 4001:18,
4002:12, 4002:19,
4002:23, 4002:27,
4047:22, 4052:22,
4054:10, 4055:19,
4057:34, 4058:46,
4068:27, 4077:22,
4079:12
remembered [1] -
4059:23
remitted [1] - 3976:40
remotely [1] - 4004:36
remove [1] - 4031:39
removed [2] - 3980:6,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT18
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4067:45
renewal [2] - 3979:19,
3979:36
repeat [2] - 4044:31,
4045:31
replied [2] - 3997:13,
3997:21
report [2] - 4037:26,
4063:29
reported [1] - 4040:28
reporting [1] -
4037:29
reports [1] - 4034:37
represent [1] -
4038:32
representatives [1] -
4052:26
representing [3] -
3976:8, 4047:46,
4059:33
request [2] - 3984:42,
4070:32
require [1] - 4031:10
required [4] - 3995:47,
4023:14, 4044:38,
4044:41
research [1] - 4062:21
reservations [1] -
4060:15
reserve [2] - 4070:17,
4070:33
residence [4] -
3983:23, 3988:36,
4009:41, 4053:37
residency [1] - 4002:9
resolve [3] - 4051:19,
4051:25, 4051:34
resolved [3] -
4014:37, 4019:7,
4021:26
respect [44] - 3994:32,
4001:17, 4003:14,
4003:39, 4003:43,
4004:23, 4005:25,
4008:45, 4009:7,
4009:45, 4011:33,
4012:26, 4014:5,
4014:9, 4015:2,
4015:16, 4016:6,
4017:21, 4018:5,
4018:26, 4018:47,
4019:40, 4020:2,
4020:21, 4020:25,
4020:30, 4020:35,
4021:4, 4021:11,
4021:15, 4021:19,
4021:25, 4021:39,
4022:2, 4023:9,
4023:46, 4027:21,
4027:37, 4028:2,
4031:6, 4031:18,
4038:5, 4054:37,
4069:29
respond [2] - 3985:41,
4047:11
responded [1] -
4047:12
Response [3] -
4026:28, 4027:2,
4027:13
response [6] -
3994:45, 3994:47,
4010:31, 4037:43,
4052:6, 4075:40
RESPONSES [1] -
3975:13
responsibilities [3] -
4032:23, 4033:3,
4053:39
responsibility [5] -
4035:12, 4038:40,
4038:47, 4049:35,
4078:38
responsible [3] -
4010:9, 4035:9,
4041:29
rest [1] - 4048:46
restrictions [2] -
4031:34, 4032:14
result [4] - 3982:9,
3982:10, 4025:41,
4036:1
results [3] - 3982:29,
3982:32, 4050:5
resume [2] - 4004:22,
4006:27
resumes [1] - 4071:16
resuming [2] - 4005:5,
4006:4
resumption [1] -
4080:8
retired [3] - 3976:18,
4009:40, 4053:40
returned [1] - 4053:2
Rev [2] - 4061:45,
4062:5
revealed [1] - 4060:41
review [9] - 4007:9,
4007:39, 4008:34,
4008:43, 4009:25,
4027:14, 4035:42,
4035:45, 4036:6
revised [1] - 4031:7
revisited [2] - 4024:7,
4025:31
ring [2] - 3995:34,
3996:2
ringing [1] - 3995:38
Ringtail [1] - 4054:42
rise [4] - 4008:34,
4045:21, 4069:23,
4075:30
risk [1] - 4013:34
road [1] - 4053:35
Robert [1] - 3975:34
role [2] - 4021:12,
4037:2
Rome [1] - 4052:32
room [6] - 3983:22,
3983:26, 4028:46,
4029:3, 4061:24,
4061:27
Rowell [9] - 4013:11,
4013:15, 4056:23,
4057:31, 4058:1,
4059:4, 4059:14,
4060:9, 4071:31
Royal [16] - 3976:16,
3983:8, 4000:24,
4000:44, 4003:12,
4003:25, 4003:38,
4008:35, 4022:7,
4027:35, 4028:13,
4029:32, 4054:44,
4060:41, 4075:34,
4079:34
ROYAL [1] - 3975:12
runs [1] - 4029:8
Ruse [1] - 3978:12
Ryan [1] - 3982:7
S
sabbatical [1] -
4067:29
Sacred [1] - 3977:11
safe [2] - 4030:13,
4031:11
safeguarding [1] -
4031:4
safety [2] - 4040:20,
4040:41
Sammon [1] - 3994:47
satisfied [2] -
4019:12, 4078:40
satisfy [1] - 4015:39
saw [4] - 3977:24,
3992:11, 4023:25,
4067:22
SC [1] - 3975:41
schedule [1] - 4056:2
schemes [1] - 4026:12
school [51] - 3977:6,
3977:10, 3977:15,
3977:16, 3977:36,
3977:40, 3978:1,
3978:5, 3978:16,
3978:28, 3980:15,
3981:6, 3985:14,
3985:16, 3996:35,
3996:37, 3996:45,
3997:1, 3997:3,
3997:7, 3997:38,
3998:24, 3998:25,
3998:31, 3999:28,
4007:7, 4008:3,
4015:6, 4028:34,
4029:8, 4030:39,
4031:2, 4031:5,
4034:30, 4034:36,
4034:37, 4034:44,
4035:2, 4035:10,
4035:12, 4041:21,
4045:9, 4045:13,
4045:14, 4045:15,
4045:19, 4045:24,
4045:30, 4067:45
School [6] - 3977:11,
3978:12, 3978:24,
3998:10, 3999:14,
3999:31
schooled [1] -
4031:28
schools [3] - 3996:34,
4029:11, 4035:16
screen [9] - 3998:42,
4007:5, 4010:13,
4011:23, 4012:5,
4013:10, 4041:32,
4056:23, 4073:47
scroll [11] - 4010:22,
4012:3, 4013:24,
4013:41, 4061:34,
4061:38, 4071:47,
4072:11, 4072:24,
4073:45, 4074:5
scrolled [2] - 4050:42,
4066:7
scrolling [1] - 4010:23
scurrying [1] -
4034:36
Sean [1] - 3994:47
search [1] - 4055:46
searches [2] -
4055:15, 4055:24
second [16] - 3989:32,
3989:33, 4011:37,
4019:4, 4049:8,
4054:2, 4057:46,
4059:9, 4060:27,
4061:8, 4061:33,
4063:21, 4066:15,
4071:32, 4073:42,
4075:25
second-last [2] -
4059:9, 4066:15
secondary [1] -
3997:5
secondly [7] -
4009:36, 4067:19,
4070:18, 4073:34,
4076:18, 4077:18,
4079:1
secrecy [1] - 4029:15
section [2] - 4049:12,
4050:15
sections [1] - 4064:13
secured [1] - 3980:24
security [1] - 4040:41
see [98] - 3983:30,
3984:39, 3991:2,
3992:9, 3993:35,
3996:4, 3998:16,
4004:46, 4006:8,
4007:44, 4009:22,
4011:34, 4011:43,
4012:6, 4013:12,
4013:27, 4013:38,
4013:44, 4014:33,
4017:15, 4017:22,
4017:39, 4017:46,
4018:25, 4018:31,
4018:35, 4019:16,
4019:18, 4019:32,
4036:24, 4036:38,
4041:32, 4044:5,
4044:24, 4048:41,
4049:9, 4049:12,
4050:11, 4050:32,
4050:39, 4050:43,
4053:11, 4056:24,
4056:31, 4056:35,
4056:40, 4057:16,
4057:27, 4058:24,
4058:39, 4059:10,
4059:26, 4059:39,
4060:24, 4060:35,
4061:25, 4061:42,
4062:23, 4062:28,
4062:44, 4063:13,
4063:25, 4063:30,
4064:3, 4064:27,
4064:36, 4065:18,
4065:25, 4065:42,
4065:47, 4066:6,
4066:25, 4066:44,
4067:9, 4067:21,
4067:41, 4068:32,
4068:47, 4069:3,
4071:32, 4071:42,
4072:1, 4072:24,
4073:4, 4073:26,
4073:29, 4073:39,
4073:46, 4073:47,
4074:15, 4074:24,
4074:33, 4074:45,
4075:16, 4076:37,
4076:43, 4077:2
seeing [4] - 3991:9,
4002:19, 4046:3,
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT19
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4073:18
seek [4] - 3996:9,
3996:12, 4038:24,
4055:42
Seeking [1] - 4067:6
seeking [4] - 3997:31,
4012:43, 4051:19,
4075:31
seem [4] - 3989:19,
4046:47, 4066:11,
4073:31
self [1] - 4032:5
send [4] - 3999:44,
4050:8, 4050:16,
4069:26
sense [11] - 4023:18,
4023:19, 4024:18,
4024:21, 4031:26,
4032:19, 4033:22,
4033:23, 4044:32,
4044:36, 4053:35
sent [7] - 3977:23,
3989:44, 3996:33,
4002:24, 4073:1,
4075:11, 4075:20
sentence [9] -
3976:30, 3976:36,
3976:45, 4012:6,
4012:29, 4042:15,
4074:27, 4074:36,
4075:2
sentenced [1] -
3976:29
sentencing [1] -
3999:39
separate [3] -
4020:41, 4021:3,
4027:42
September [13] -
3976:39, 3992:26,
3992:29, 3992:37,
4016:47, 4017:2,
4017:9, 4017:10,
4017:12, 4017:15,
4052:31, 4052:36,
4065:18
series [3] - 4047:7,
4069:7, 4073:31
serious [2] - 4047:8,
4068:3
served [1] - 4016:18
set [12] - 4007:24,
4007:31, 4013:27,
4026:24, 4027:26,
4028:3, 4032:44,
4034:4, 4062:24,
4063:16, 4063:44,
4064:16
sets [2] - 4011:33,
4071:45
settled [5] - 4022:12,
4022:15, 4023:38,
4035:36
settlement [7] -
4012:33, 4014:42,
4017:35, 4018:1,
4018:21, 4044:43
settlements [7] -
4012:12, 4012:23,
4012:30, 4012:33,
4022:17, 4035:42,
4049:36
severe [2] - 4031:34,
4032:14
severity [1] - 3976:36
SEXUAL [1] - 3975:13
sexual [13] - 4007:8,
4008:5, 4012:26,
4016:11, 4016:46,
4029:33, 4029:34,
4044:41, 4048:23,
4061:11, 4067:31,
4077:20, 4078:5
sexually [6] - 3983:25,
4013:32, 4028:33,
4028:38, 4038:32,
4056:31
sharp [1] - 4025:6
sheets [1] - 4051:29
short [5] - 4002:44,
4058:12, 4070:11,
4077:10, 4079:30
short-circuit [1] -
4077:10
short-term [1] -
4058:12
shorten [1] - 4075:36
shortly [1] - 3978:8
show [6] - 4054:18,
4054:23, 4059:9,
4061:8, 4065:45,
4072:10
shown [5] - 4041:25,
4046:10, 4055:36,
4062:33, 4076:3
shows [1] - 4030:38
sic [1] - 4045:19
side [8] - 4010:4,
4024:18, 4029:22,
4030:14, 4031:11,
4031:13, 4033:2,
4057:43
sides [1] - 4031:1
sign [4] - 4023:14,
4023:17, 4056:41,
4060:5
signature [1] -
4041:33
signed [7] - 3979:2,
3979:12, 3993:27,
4060:3, 4064:28,
4064:32, 4064:37
significant [4] -
4013:26, 4056:28,
4056:39, 4056:47
significantly [1] -
4058:12
signs [1] - 4023:32
similar [2] - 4003:3,
4023:4
Simon [1] - 4074:21
simple [2] - 4037:14,
4044:15
simply [13] - 4005:43,
4012:38, 4020:18,
4022:27, 4024:17,
4026:5, 4032:20,
4035:24, 4037:34,
4039:39, 4055:47,
4078:1, 4078:2
sit [2] - 4003:35,
4004:3
situated [1] - 3998:37
situation [14] -
4000:37, 4000:39,
4004:34, 4011:30,
4029:39, 4030:43,
4032:19, 4037:36,
4039:25, 4046:5,
4066:32, 4067:14,
4068:44, 4071:6
situations [1] -
4067:45
six [2] - 4021:27,
4059:19
skinner [10] - 4002:39,
4004:10, 4004:30,
4005:3, 4005:25,
4005:35, 4006:1,
4006:20, 4006:28,
4006:41
Skinner [5] - 4038:18,
4069:29, 4069:30,
4069:40, 4070:3
SKINNER [9] -
4002:41, 4004:14,
4004:18, 4004:33,
4005:8, 4005:17,
4038:21, 4069:33,
4069:37
skip [1] - 4058:16
Slattery [2] - 3985:23,
3985:25
slipping [1] - 4029:37
small [3] - 4007:44,
4008:22, 4008:30
society [1] - 4040:39
solicitors [5] -
4014:31, 4056:24,
4056:27, 4057:19,
4060:10
someone [2] -
3990:30, 4059:5
something's [1] -
3999:4
sometimes [4] -
4025:23, 4030:1,
4051:12, 4051:13
somewhat [2] -
4071:6, 4075:31
somewhere [4] -
3984:13, 3991:42,
3994:10, 4027:29
son [1] - 3983:24
soon [4] - 3989:8,
4051:27, 4051:43,
4052:7
sorry [14] - 3980:28,
3989:40, 4002:16,
4017:43, 4023:38,
4024:16, 4033:32,
4034:28, 4036:14,
4041:42, 4045:27,
4046:4, 4048:20,
4078:27
sort [11] - 4015:43,
4024:40, 4025:21,
4026:23, 4027:1,
4029:38, 4030:27,
4035:38, 4052:3,
4078:25, 4078:31
sorts [1] - 4031:16
sought [2] - 4000:37,
4024:8
sound [1] - 4058:13
sounded [1] - 3989:20
source [2] - 4008:44,
4047:1
South [2] - 3976:29,
4035:31
Southdown [27] -
3983:1, 3986:3,
3986:15, 3986:17,
3986:24, 3987:39,
3988:1, 3988:6,
3988:9, 3988:13,
3988:25, 3989:29,
3989:38, 3989:44,
3989:47, 3990:17,
3990:26, 3991:24,
3992:6, 3992:22,
3992:47, 4001:46,
4002:2, 4002:9,
4002:20, 4002:21,
4002:24
speaking [4] -
3987:27, 4006:2,
4061:1, 4070:16
special [3] - 4033:30,
4033:32, 4055:28
specific [2] - 4026:21,
4031:13
specifically [1] -
4001:30
speed [1] - 4076:12
spent [1] - 4040:22
Spokane [1] - 4032:33
spoken [5] - 3987:40,
4006:1, 4023:8,
4074:8, 4075:21
sponsored [1] -
4026:23
St [12] - 3978:11,
3978:23, 3994:14,
3994:16, 3994:21,
3996:24, 3998:10,
3998:24, 3999:11,
3999:14, 3999:31,
3999:37
stage [13] - 4009:42,
4014:28, 4024:3,
4030:26, 4035:37,
4037:32, 4040:19,
4051:42, 4053:40,
4053:45, 4062:42,
4065:15, 4072:15
stand [1] - 4006:8
standards [1] -
4024:13
Standards [2] -
4026:6, 4026:14
standing [2] -
4038:25, 4061:47
start [3] - 4048:39,
4049:32, 4056:22
started [3] - 4033:21,
4051:8, 4051:22
starting [3] - 4024:11,
4041:44, 4050:15
state [1] - 4069:30
statement [31] -
3998:41, 3999:5,
4003:25, 4005:41,
4007:1, 4007:25,
4015:15, 4023:44,
4028:3, 4032:45,
4034:15, 4036:25,
4043:42, 4047:22,
4047:25, 4047:44,
4050:8, 4050:16,
4050:18, 4054:14,
4054:19, 4054:32,
4056:42, 4058:44,
4060:3, 4060:5,
4069:13, 4079:29,
4079:30, 4079:35,
4079:36
STATEMENT [1] -
4055:4
statements [10] -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT20
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4023:40, 4033:10,
4043:46, 4048:12,
4048:18, 4048:20,
4051:13, 4051:23,
4057:33, 4070:25
statements" [1] -
4048:16
States [3] - 3976:20,
3997:18, 4032:33
status [5] - 4015:35,
4031:39, 4035:16,
4040:40, 4045:37
statutes [2] - 4042:24,
4050:23
stay [5] - 3991:41,
3991:42, 3995:8,
3995:12, 3995:39
stayed [1] - 3991:42
staying [1] - 3991:36
Steering [2] - 4063:30,
4063:35
steering [1] - 4064:17
step [3] - 4006:26,
4006:27, 4006:34
steps [2] - 4009:20,
4037:2
Stewart [1] - 4038:31
still [11] - 3976:12,
4012:19, 4018:42,
4024:26, 4031:32,
4031:36, 4038:37,
4038:42, 4039:3,
4040:7, 4053:45
stipend [1] - 3981:31
stopped [1] - 4024:45
straight [6] - 4020:15,
4034:44, 4051:43,
4053:3, 4069:12,
4077:38
straight-out [1] -
4069:12
strategies [2] -
4042:18, 4050:22
strategy [6] - 4042:40,
4043:13, 4043:14,
4043:41, 4049:7,
4049:12
Street [1] - 3984:32
stressful [1] - 4071:6
string [1] - 4012:5
strong [1] - 4038:38
structure [1] - 4027:1
student [3] - 4028:40,
4034:23, 4034:36
students [8] -
3977:11, 3980:7,
3980:10, 3980:45,
3980:46, 3981:2,
3999:33, 4031:10
studies [3] - 3981:17,
3996:20, 3996:24
study [9] - 3993:27,
3993:29, 4003:25,
4003:39, 4003:44,
4022:8, 4023:25,
4033:4, 4036:10
Study [1] - 3975:17
studying [4] -
3981:16, 3981:19,
3981:23, 3993:27
subject [2] - 4027:42,
4030:40
submission [2] -
4003:32, 4063:47
submissions [3] -
4076:9, 4076:18,
4076:24
submit [1] - 4069:30
subparagraph [1] -
4059:19
subsequent [3] -
3986:2, 3986:5,
4064:45
substantial [2] -
4040:45, 4060:14
substantially [1] -
4059:35
success [1] - 4014:32
successful [1] -
4036:7
successfully [1] -
4068:29
sudden [2] - 3989:19,
3989:20
suddenly [1] -
4032:24
suffered [3] - 4024:31,
4037:19, 4044:40
suffering [1] - 4044:20
sufficient [5] -
4013:31, 4015:21,
4015:38, 4015:39,
4015:42
sufficiently [1] -
4015:19
suggest [1] - 4043:27
suggested [3] -
3982:38, 3986:3,
4076:23
suggesting [1] -
4005:4
suggestion [2] -
3986:9, 4075:45
suggestions [1] -
4046:34
suggests [1] -
4037:35
suit [1] - 4021:32
suitable [1] - 4039:38
summarise [1] -
4058:17
summary [1] -
4005:42
summons [2] -
4017:6, 4027:47
sums [1] - 4058:4
superior [2] - 4074:21,
4074:29
superiors [3] -
4056:30, 4066:38,
4069:9
supervision [2] -
4035:9, 4040:38
support [3] - 4018:34,
4018:40, 4039:37
suppose [6] -
3979:36, 3981:3,
3981:36, 3991:10,
3991:30, 4010:35
supposed [1] - 4048:3
Supreme [3] -
4012:40, 4021:1,
4052:4
surprised [2] -
4059:22, 4059:31
surprises [1] - 4035:5
suspect [1] - 4080:12
suspected [1] -
3999:11
suspects [1] - 3999:3
suspicious [1] -
4029:20
sustained [1] -
4019:10
Sutton [41] - 3976:4,
3976:18, 3976:20,
3977:5, 3998:5,
4003:47, 4004:42,
4005:36, 4005:37,
4005:40, 4005:45,
4006:19, 4008:18,
4012:37, 4014:27,
4015:2, 4016:47,
4018:9, 4020:30,
4020:36, 4020:42,
4021:20, 4024:4,
4030:39, 4036:24,
4036:42, 4037:5,
4037:42, 4069:24,
4069:26, 4069:37,
4070:5, 4070:14,
4070:27, 4070:30,
4070:43, 4070:46,
4071:4, 4071:15,
4072:15, 4079:11
SUTTON [1] - 3976:6
sweep [1] - 4047:4
sworn [1] - 3976:6
Sydney [10] - 3975:23,
3982:10, 3982:17,
3982:22, 4007:10,
4007:39, 4008:44,
4024:44, 4035:20,
4063:3
systemic [2] -
4030:10, 4036:30
systems [2] - 4003:22,
4031:8
T
tab [12] - 4010:13,
4011:23, 4013:10,
4041:25, 4046:10,
4048:41, 4053:7,
4057:47, 4071:30,
4073:45, 4077:6
table [6] - 4005:13,
4017:20, 4018:25,
4018:30, 4020:12
TAFE [1] - 3997:15
TAFE-type [1] -
3997:15
target [2] - 4042:31,
4050:3
taught [3] - 3980:45,
4032:30, 4035:2
teach [2] - 3996:40,
3998:34
teacher [8] - 3998:25,
3998:27, 3998:32,
3998:37, 3999:31,
4019:17, 4019:35,
4019:37
teachers [3] - 3999:3,
4030:18, 4035:9
teaching [18] - 3977:5,
3977:10, 3977:35,
3977:47, 3978:11,
3978:23, 3979:46,
3980:7, 3996:34,
3996:41, 3996:44,
3997:13, 3997:14,
3997:17, 3999:27,
4009:30, 4032:34
team [1] - 4015:1
teenagers [1] - 3981:5
teleconference [2] -
4042:44, 4048:47
telephone [6] -
3984:21, 3994:21,
3995:25, 3995:26,
4010:14, 4010:17
tender [21] - 4010:35,
4016:38, 4030:17,
4043:29, 4051:28,
4053:7, 4054:20,
4054:36, 4054:37,
4054:41, 4056:6,
4056:9, 4056:18,
4056:19, 4061:31,
4065:2, 4065:4,
4065:47, 4069:21,
4070:24, 4071:29
tendered [2] -
4030:37, 4054:46
tendering [1] -
4054:20
term [7] - 3976:31,
3976:45, 4026:20,
4032:22, 4037:13,
4058:12, 4058:13
terms [49] - 4010:41,
4010:42, 4011:1,
4012:47, 4014:9,
4014:32, 4015:9,
4015:42, 4020:17,
4021:24, 4022:5,
4022:27, 4024:16,
4024:37, 4026:39,
4027:5, 4027:6,
4027:8, 4029:15,
4029:22, 4029:29,
4029:31, 4029:35,
4030:10, 4030:16,
4031:5, 4031:23,
4031:28, 4032:26,
4033:2, 4034:40,
4035:12, 4037:8,
4037:12, 4037:13,
4040:35, 4040:36,
4047:44, 4052:9,
4052:12, 4053:34,
4053:44, 4066:20,
4066:40, 4069:6,
4078:2, 4078:23,
4078:30
testimony [1] -
4015:14
theirs [1] - 4060:11
themselves [4] -
4011:3, 4014:19,
4024:10, 4057:36
Theological [2] -
3980:25, 3980:39
theological [4] -
3980:45, 3980:46,
3981:28
therapeutic [1] -
3981:35
thereabouts [1] -
4027:16
thereafter [3] -
4009:30, 4051:18,
4053:3
therefore [3] -
4003:31, 4004:45,
4033:23
thinking [3] - 4043:12,
4043:14, 4055:27
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT21
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

third [10] - 4008:29,
4012:6, 4020:45,
4046:22, 4049:28,
4053:9, 4056:2,
4058:10, 4067:3,
4075:42
third-last [1] - 4056:2
thirdly [3] - 4067:27,
4073:34, 4073:44
thirds [2] - 4072:12,
4072:24
Thomas [7] - 3978:11,
3998:10, 3998:24,
3999:11, 3999:14,
3999:31, 3999:37
thoughts [2] -
4008:35, 4063:38
three [13] - 3988:46,
3992:12, 3998:35,
4000:26, 4000:44,
4013:30, 4019:46,
4020:16, 4035:46,
4036:1, 4046:21,
4048:42, 4058:6
throughout [2] -
4053:22, 4072:10
Thursday [2] -
4071:40, 4072:5
ticket [5] - 3988:19,
3988:21, 3988:45,
3989:4, 3990:37
timing [4] - 3989:2,
3989:25, 3989:26,
3992:15
TITLED [1] - 4016:42
TO [4] - 3975:13,
4056:13, 4080:20
today [17] - 4003:9,
4003:34, 4003:40,
4004:1, 4008:11,
4013:21, 4031:4,
4037:16, 4037:17,
4040:11, 4041:5,
4045:5, 4055:36,
4070:30, 4071:11,
4071:12, 4071:16
tonight [1] - 4071:8
took [10] - 3980:15,
3997:8, 4030:36,
4030:38, 4047:47,
4048:2, 4052:25,
4056:17, 4065:16,
4073:30
top [5] - 4039:31,
4061:41, 4065:12,
4065:15, 4072:22
topic [3] - 4057:38,
4061:15, 4065:46
topics [2] - 4063:22,
4063:43
Toronto [2] - 3988:43
total [4] - 4018:5,
4019:39, 4020:11,
4063:17
touched [2] - 4072:43,
4074:11
touching [1] - 4073:29
Towards [22] -
4012:11, 4012:27,
4017:28, 4017:31,
4018:15, 4022:41,
4022:44, 4023:3,
4023:5, 4023:14,
4023:21, 4023:28,
4023:31, 4024:2,
4024:9, 4024:25,
4024:30, 4024:45,
4025:44, 4027:21,
4027:33, 4051:1
towards [5] - 3999:27,
4001:18, 4012:27,
4029:21, 4063:20
Tower [1] - 3975:22
training [1] - 4024:40
transcribed [1] -
4056:41
transcript [4] -
4036:29, 4048:15,
4065:11, 4077:42
transfer [10] -
3977:18, 3977:20,
3977:21, 3977:28,
3978:4, 3978:15,
3978:27, 4008:18,
4008:45, 4009:7
transferred [3] -
3977:15, 3977:25,
3977:39
transparency [2] -
4009:14, 4027:8
treatment [17] -
3986:3, 3986:15,
3989:30, 3989:32,
3989:34, 3989:39,
3989:40, 3990:2,
3990:9, 3990:12,
3990:16, 3992:12,
3992:47, 3993:12,
3993:14, 3993:22
Treatment [1] - 4067:6
Treatment-Help [1] -
4067:6
trending [1] - 4037:26
trends [1] - 4036:31
trial [3] - 4057:10,
4058:33, 4059:6
tried [1] - 4066:37
trip [1] - 3991:23
trouble [2] - 4046:30,
4046:32
troubled [1] - 4068:15
true [3] - 4027:23,
4039:29, 4040:14
Trust [2] - 4032:38,
4035:29
trust [2] - 4029:18,
4033:9
Trustee [1] - 4032:38
trustee [6] - 4011:31,
4029:8, 4033:5,
4033:17, 4033:23,
4033:27
trustees [8] - 4021:32,
4021:38, 4024:10,
4033:1, 4035:8,
4035:17, 4035:22,
4049:28
Trustees [3] -
4035:14, 4035:17,
4035:22
truth [1] - 4047:2
Truth [4] - 4028:12,
4047:46, 4048:36,
4052:27
try [1] - 4051:34
trying [7] - 3992:15,
4024:1, 4068:20,
4068:27, 4068:37,
4073:23, 4073:39
Tuesday [1] - 3975:27
turn [6] - 4007:4,
4009:19, 4009:44,
4018:25, 4035:34,
4050:42
turned [2] - 3991:13,
3992:44
turning [3] - 4011:37,
4017:20, 4037:8
Turton [49] - 3983:38,
3984:8, 3984:12,
3988:25, 3989:3,
3989:8, 3990:1,
3990:25, 3991:7,
3992:9, 3992:42,
3992:46, 3993:35,
3994:2, 3994:20,
3995:4, 3996:3,
3996:31, 3997:22,
3997:26, 4001:16,
4001:23, 4001:34,
4001:40, 4001:43,
4006:21, 4028:47,
4029:17, 4030:4,
4033:8, 4033:40,
4043:8, 4046:15,
4046:18, 4047:45,
4048:3, 4052:43,
4053:2, 4061:9,
4061:17, 4065:14,
4075:41, 4076:16,
4076:26, 4077:29,
4077:35, 4077:39,
4079:2, 4079:9
Turton's [2] - 4055:11,
4077:43
twelve [1] - 4075:27
two [37] - 3979:18,
3984:1, 3987:10,
3987:24, 3988:46,
3990:20, 3992:13,
3992:35, 3992:41,
3997:4, 3998:20,
4000:26, 4000:44,
4009:34, 4009:45,
4017:28, 4018:30,
4019:4, 4019:36,
4031:1, 4031:47,
4032:47, 4033:34,
4053:11, 4053:43,
4053:45, 4056:20,
4058:9, 4061:34,
4062:24, 4062:34,
4071:45, 4072:12,
4072:24, 4077:17,
4078:4, 4078:18
two-month [1] -
3979:18
two-thirds [2] -
4072:12, 4072:24
type [3] - 3997:15,
4043:41, 4066:31
types [1] - 4049:23
U
ultimately [4] -
3993:45, 4014:41,
4068:2, 4077:15
umbrella [1] - 4025:29
unbelievable [1] -
4034:26
uncomfortable [1] -
4043:40
under [14] - 3985:45,
4002:32, 4024:24,
4024:30, 4027:14,
4031:34, 4032:14,
4035:21, 4035:23,
4039:5, 4046:36,
4047:4, 4068:10,
4071:5
underneath [1] -
4029:37
understood [11] -
3986:23, 3987:38,
3988:26, 3989:47,
3990:8, 3990:34,
3990:35, 3997:31,
4003:1, 4013:15,
4052:10
undertaking [4] -
3979:2, 3979:7,
3979:9, 4003:39
unequivocally [1] -
4015:13
unfair [1] - 4025:46
Union [2] - 3980:25,
3980:40
union [3] - 3980:43,
3981:9, 3982:26
unit [1] - 3981:17
United [2] - 3976:20,
4032:33
unless [3] - 4014:10,
4014:12, 4029:19
unreliable [1] - 4057:8
unresolved [1] -
4018:44
unsupervised [1] -
4031:27
unusual [1] - 4027:21
up [36] - 3987:1,
3987:4, 3988:22,
3988:46, 3989:4,
3990:37, 3991:13,
3992:44, 3993:27,
3997:8, 3998:42,
4004:41, 4007:5,
4008:30, 4010:23,
4013:24, 4016:47,
4017:4, 4017:6,
4026:24, 4027:2,
4033:21, 4034:4,
4041:6, 4041:42,
4042:32, 4046:25,
4053:7, 4055:16,
4055:33, 4056:29,
4057:13, 4058:4,
4061:12, 4065:12,
4076:12
updated [3] - 4017:14,
4017:16
usual [1] - 3978:45
V
value [1] - 4027:7
various [6] - 4007:24,
4041:7, 4046:25,
4054:13, 4055:38,
4058:7
VARIOUS [1] -
4056:15
vegetable [1] -
4053:41
version [2] - 4048:3,
4048:13
vice [2] - 4007:21,
4079:1
vice-provincial [2] -
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT22
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

4007:21, 4079:1
victim [8] - 3999:41,
3999:44, 4019:6,
4019:36, 4022:46,
4022:47, 4048:22
victims [5] - 4000:40,
4012:35, 4027:9,
4079:30, 4079:31
Victor [6] - 4062:14,
4062:19, 4063:36,
4064:19, 4064:37,
4064:41
view [20] - 3980:5,
4005:46, 4007:47,
4010:46, 4011:33,
4011:38, 4012:16,
4012:19, 4012:22,
4012:23, 4012:25,
4014:46, 4015:19,
4030:1, 4030:44,
4051:24, 4054:19,
4057:41, 4070:8,
4079:40
viewing [1] - 4047:1
views [1] - 4057:31
Vincent [1] - 3982:7
visit [3] - 3991:27,
3991:44, 3993:36
vital [1] - 4003:24
volunteer [2] -
3986:44, 4001:17
W
waiting [1] - 4069:24
Wales [2] - 3976:30,
4035:31
Walsh [11] - 3976:8,
3976:10, 3999:47,
4000:18, 4000:22,
4000:24, 4000:26,
4000:38, 4071:1,
4071:21, 4072:17
WALSH [4] - 4071:4,
4071:23, 4072:14,
4072:19
Walsh's [1] - 4000:43
wants [2] - 4004:44,
4006:20
warning [4] - 4009:22,
4061:1, 4061:12,
4061:20
warrant [8] - 3994:7,
3994:25, 3994:28,
3994:32, 3994:46,
3995:15, 3997:27,
4015:40
warrants [1] - 4079:20
warranty [1] - 4009:8
ways [1] - 4056:31
we" [1] - 4050:26
weakened/
diminished [1] -
4059:36
weaknesses [1] -
4066:21
website [1] - 4080:9
Wednesday [1] -
4010:16
week [12] - 3983:47,
3990:44, 3992:1,
3992:4, 3992:10,
3992:19, 3992:20,
3992:22, 3992:23,
4016:19, 4062:23,
4071:41
weeks [6] - 3984:1,
3984:4, 4000:18,
4000:24, 4000:26,
4000:44
Weldon [2] - 4068:21,
4072:31
whereabouts [1] -
3994:21
whereby [1] - 4007:6
whilst [1] - 4066:37
whole [15] - 4009:13,
4012:47, 4015:8,
4025:5, 4029:31,
4030:18, 4031:20,
4031:21, 4035:17,
4043:30, 4044:43,
4053:23, 4061:31,
4064:19, 4064:44
wholly [1] - 4035:40
wife [2] - 4071:6,
4072:15
William [1] - 4072:2
willingness [1] -
4051:34
window [1] - 4046:35
wish [3] - 4000:21,
4054:18, 4069:37
wished [2] - 3983:23,
4012:25
witch [2] - 4037:9,
4037:11
witch-hunt [2] -
4037:9, 4037:11
WITH [1] - 4055:5
withdraw [2] -
4000:25, 4017:14
withdrawn [1] -
4009:29
WITHDREW [2] -
4006:37, 4079:47
witness [21] -
4002:42, 4005:9,
4005:41, 4006:26,
4006:27, 4006:35,
4036:39, 4041:25,
4043:35, 4046:10,
4048:17, 4057:8,
4058:31, 4059:24,
4070:25, 4075:32,
4076:17, 4077:28,
4077:34, 4079:35
WITNESS [6] -
4006:32, 4006:37,
4048:20, 4079:29,
4079:42, 4079:47
witnessed [1] -
4037:25
witnesses [3] -
3998:6, 3998:20,
4070:26
woman [1] - 4030:20
women [1] - 4053:28
wonder [6] - 4053:7,
4054:22, 4056:18,
4062:33, 4065:12,
4069:24
wonderful [2] -
4066:16, 4066:20
word [5] - 4022:44,
4031:40, 4031:41,
4061:42, 4068:24
words [8] - 3999:2,
4029:37, 4041:44,
4041:47, 4042:8,
4044:7, 4044:24,
4044:27
workplace [2] -
4053:13, 4053:18
works [1] - 4044:31
world [3] - 4032:10,
4032:12, 4075:28
write [1] - 4042:14
writing [2] - 4000:32,
4009:7
written [6] - 4015:12,
4050:8, 4050:16,
4056:41, 4064:22,
4068:6
wrongdoing [1] -
4000:4
wronged [1] - 4044:17
wrote [3] - 3999:41,
4042:8
Y
year [11] - 3977:23,
3977:24, 3978:9,
3993:3, 3999:27,
4003:13, 4003:29,
4008:14, 4027:43,
4052:36
yearbooks [1] -
4034:37
years [14] - 3976:30,
3976:31, 3976:45,
3976:46, 3997:4,
4024:46, 4030:6,
4040:22, 4040:23,
4040:32, 4046:27,
4055:31, 4057:13,
4064:8
yesterday [7] -
4008:33, 4016:24,
4028:47, 4033:41,
4055:10, 4055:27,
4055:32
York [5] - 3995:1,
3995:28, 3995:38,
3996:2, 3996:19
young [5] - 4009:39,
4013:33, 4053:27,
4053:28
younger [1] - 4031:28
yourself [8] - 3990:37,
4005:6, 4005:12,
4008:17, 4043:8,
4051:24, 4051:32,
4065:21
Z
Zealand [1] - 3979:20
.1/07/2014 (ACT36)
ACT23
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation