DPI Inquiry Public Hearing (Abraham ROUFAIL, William BURROWS)

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Reproduction of this document (or part thereof, in any format) except with the prior written consent of 

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_____ 

CORRUPTION AND CRIME COMMISSION 

OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA 

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS-SMITH 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 

AT PERTH ON WEDNESDAY, 18 FEBRUARY 2009, AT 2.10 PM 

Continued from 17/2/09 

Counsel assisting: 

MR B.E.F. TOOKER 

MS H.V.C. STAMP 

18/2/09 491 

(s&c)

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THE COMMISSIONER: Just before we continue there is one 

administrative matter that I would like to deal with. 

According to the Commission's standard practice the 

transcript of this public hearing, as I indicated earlier, 

is being placed on the Commission's web site as it becomes 

available. Last night at 7 pm the transcript of yesterday 

afternoon's session was placed on the web site. 

Unfortunately, a telephone intercept call was inserted into 

the transcript incorrectly. I should stress that the 

telephone intercept call that was published as part of the 

transcript was in fact the call previously played at the 

public hearing in January. This fault was detected this 

morning and the transcript taken down at 8 am. The error 

has now been rectified and the transcript of yesterday 

afternoon's session was placed back on the Commission's 

web site at 10.30 am this morning. I emphasise that there 

was no undisclosed or no unauthorised disclosure of 

telephone intercept material that had not publicly been 

disclosed at all. It was simply the insertion of an 

incorrect telephone intercept conversation at the wrong 

place in the transcript and that has now been corrected. 

Thank you. Now, Mr Roufail, you are still on your former 

oath, you understand that?---That's correct. 

I remind you that your evidence must be truthful, that it 

is an offence and also potentially a contempt of the 

Commission, which is punishable as a contempt of the 

Supreme Court to give false or misleading evidence. Do you 

understand that?---That's correct. 

Yes, all right, very well. Yes, Mr Tooker. 

TOOKER, MR: 

Thank you, Commissioner. 

Mr Roufail, I want to play you another telephone call now. 

It's CCC bar code T2165. Again, it's your daughter Susan 

talking to Coralie Raphael. 

Start of TI transcript, exhibit number T2165. 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

Hello. 

Hi. I was at the pits 

Yeah. 

18/2/09 ROUFAIL, A.M. XN 492 

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S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

C RAPHAEL: 

S JABBOUR: 

now I’ve (word inaudible) a third 

guy. Uhm I’ve he only did one car 

for me once before and sec I ent up 

to him today I had no car with me I 

said can you do me a favour I said 

I’ve got this, this, this, that I 

go yep takes it and does it. Anyway 

while I’m sitting I’m I’m pretty 

happy with myself so … comes up and 

hits me in the bum with a clipboard 

Who did? 

John one of the other you know John 

the one that’s been helping us. 

Right. 

He’s back here now so we’re back on 

track. So what does that mean he’s 

gonna keep doin’ ‘em for me 

(laughs) 

Mm. 

And Billy was there and Billy sort 

of stood around waiting for me to 

ask him that’s Billy’s number four. 

Billy helped Dad but I’m not gonna 

get Billy involved with with him 

because I’ve got three now and 

Billy helps Dad so I’ll let Dad do 

it for him. 

Yeah but your father’s not doing it 

anymore is he? 

Yeah he does he did two today. 

Oh did he? Yeah but what what 

happened with uhm the the result? 

I don’t know I have to ring up Mum 

this afternoon she’s gonna know. 

Oh this afternoon ‘cause ah yeah. 

But 

Alright. 

…I can easily get Billy because 

he’s done it for me in the past. 

End of TI transcript. 


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TOOKER, MR: Is it true that Billy helped you?---Billy 

helped me if car a hundred per cent right, otherwise he 

won't help me. 

So if you guaranteed to Billy that a car was a 

hundred per cent right, would he help you?---He help me if 

a car a hundred per cent right. I won't even take it to 

him unless it be a hundred per cent. 

And if you told him that it was a hundred per cent right, 

would he not have to see the car?---No, I always take the 

car to see it. 

That's not exactly true, because we have seen - - -?---I 

know, but this is - that's how it was. 

Did he help you out by passing cars without seeing them? 

---Not really. The only car he pass, are car which has 

done lower kilometre. All the car need work and being old 

car you have to take it there. 

Sure, so you took the old cars to the pits?---No, all late 

model, all got any complain, all late model car. 


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Is it the case that with new cars sometimes you didn't take 

them to the pits and he just took your word for it?---Yeah, 

the car a new car which has only done 20,000 kilometre. 

Only six months old. 

So if it was new - - -?---Yeah? 

- - - is it the case that sometimes you wouldn't take those 

cars to the pits?---No. Because a new car. 

Yes, and Billy would pass them anyway. Right?---He pass 

them and when I give him all the detail, the proper detail. 

The old car and new car come from Eastern State. Demo car 

from Newtown Toyota. That's only car he did pass. 

Yes; and so it was just like the green Mitsubishi ute: he 

would just take the paperwork - - -?---No, the green 

Mitsubishi ute is old car. Not a new car. 

Yes, but - - -?---But he took my word with the replace of 

tyres. 

Yes, so he took your word with the new cars just like he 

took your word with the green ute. Right?---He took my - 

yeah, that's correct; yeah. 

How many cars do you think he passed on your word alone?---I 

don't recall how many car. 

Is that because it's lots?---Pardon? 

Were there lots?---I couldn't understand what you say. I 

couldn't hear you. 

Lots. L-o-t-s?---Lot? Lot. 

THE COMMISSIONER: 

no; no. 

Were there lots of them?---Not a lot, 

Were there many cars?---No, not a lot; no. Not many cars. 

TOOKER, MR: How many do you think? How many do you 

think?---I don't - I don't record how many but this is 

only - only car I take to him with the lower kilometre. 

When they go there they take a number, not even check the 

car or nothing. I took a number to him. I tell him those 

the car, the colour, whole detail, because I been doing it 

for 30 years. I know what I'm doing and I take it to him 

and that's all he did. He didn't break a law. He didn't 

done nothing wrong. 


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All right, so when you say you take the paper you take the 

pit pass?---The pit pass. 

Yes?---And I take the - the detail each car. 

So the VIN number and all that stuff?---Whole detail, 

because this my job. I been doing it for 30 years. 

Yes. Are you sure that Billy didn't get anything for 

helping you out this way?---Mate, he get nothing out of me. 

Why - - -?---No-one, because I never get pay that much money 

to give. What I get - I get $50 a car or a hundred dollars 

a car. What I - what I going to give him? He doing his 

job. He get paid from the government. 

Can you help us to understand why he helped you out?---You 

know, you're Australian. 

Yes?---We're all friendly and that's the life is. 

Do you know Peter Howard down at the licensing centre? 

---Yeah, Peter Howard. I know Peter Howard. 

Yes. Do you get along with him quite well?---I get along 

with everyone, my friend. 

Has he ever inspected cars for you down at Welshpool?---He - 

he inspect car, yeah. 

Has he ever inspected cars for you at Eurotyres?---No. 

Has he ever passed a car without seeing it for you?---No. 

Have you ever given Peter Howard anything?---Never. 

Do you know John Piercey?---Pardon? 

Do you know John Piercey?---No. I don't know John Piercey. 

Do you know Brent Kain?---Brett (sic). I know John and 

Brett - Brett Kain; yeah, I know Brett. 

Yes? How do you know Brent Kain?---Through work, I do. 


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At Welshpool?---Welshpool, yeah. 

Do you get along well with Brent?---I get along with 

everyone. 

Has Brent helped you out with cars?---No, and John never 

helped with car. He examine every car when I take it, John. 

I know with John. 

You know John?---Yeah. 

He's from Welshpool too?---He just start only - been only 

about 12 months in the game there. 

Has John ever inspected any cars for you at Eurotyres?---He 

inspect car, yeah. He inspect - - - 

At Eurotyres?---He inspect ever car and full check. 

Just listen carefully. Has John ever inspected cars for you 

at Eurotyres?---I never been at Eurotyres when John in. 

Has Brent Kain ever inspected cars for you at Eurotyres? 

---Yeah. he was in my time. 

Has John Piercey inspected cars for you for at Welshpool? 

---Yes. 

Had Brent Kain inspected cars for you at Welshpool?---Yes. 

Has John Piercey ever passed a car for you without seeing 

the vehicle?---No. 

Had Brent Kain ever passed a vehicle for you without seeing 

the car?---No way, no. 

Have you ever given John Piercey anything?---No. 

Have you ever given Brent Kain anything?---Nothing. 

So is it your evidence - I will withdraw that. Are there 

any other examiners who have passed cars for you without 

seeing the car?---No-one. 

Just Bill?---Just Bill done one, those car late-model car. 

I used to take brand-new Mercedes and he look the car, 

brand-new car, that don't need to check it for Autostrada. 

I take all the car for Autostrada, brand-new BMW, brand-new 

Mercedes, why do you need to examine it? 

Do you know George Raphael?---Yeah, he's my nephew. 


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Do you know if George is involved in licensing cars? 

---That's his business, not to do with me what he does, 

that's his business. 

Yes, but do you know whether he does that or not?---No, I 

don't know. 

Have you ever used him to pass cars?---No. I don't know 

what he doing. 

Do you know who he uses to pass cars?---I know Barry, 

because he was in Kelmscott and I book car and I go to 

Kelmscott. They do the car for DVG. 

Who told you about Barry?---Well, I heard it on the TV now, 

but before he never help with even one item. The car got a 

light not working, he used to reject it for me, for DVG. 


Who did?---Barry. 

TOOKER, MR: You said that you would sometimes take cars to 

Barry at Kelmscott?---Yeah, Kelmscott station, yeah, book, 

DVG they book all the car. We take them up there. 

Who told you to go and see Barry?---No-one told me to see 

Barry. Whenever examine - I come, he check the car, 

sometime Barry, sometime Paul, somebody else, Peter, 

everyone there. 

Why did you go to Kelmscott?---Because DVG in Maddington. 

So you're saying it was closer to the cars that you were 

looking after?---Still even now. 

Would Barry Tanner help you out in the same way that Bill 

Burrows did?---No. Have nothing to do with them. 


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Would Barry Tanner always conduct an actual inspection on 

the vehicles?---Yeah, every vehicle inspected; yeah. 

So even to this day you are still passing cars over the 

pits, Mr Roufail?---Pardon? 

Even today you are still passing cars over the pits?---I 

still take car over the pit. 

Yes. In the last year have you been passing cars for Susan 

as well?---I did maybe two or three cars for her. She was 

sick and I take a car, help her with it. 

How much did she pay you?---Hundred dollars. 

Was that just for your time, for lining up down at the 

centre?---To line up. I help my daughter. 

When you helped your daughter out did you actually get in 

the line and wait or did you just go and see your friend, 

Bill Burrows?---I wait like everybody else. 

You have been in this game for 30 years of passing over the 

pits. Do you know anyone else who is involved in that 

industry, who does that?---No. Nothing happen till - till 

two years ago when the trouble started and people line up. 

I used to go 4.30 in the morning, wait to get - my line; 

and so busy, you know, not many people to do the work. 

That's why the people - that's why examiner tried to help 

the people because they get abuse and frustrated to people 

outside there waiting to get their car examination. 

So when did it start that you would just give the paperwork 

to Bill Burrows?---No, the only - only last - the last year 

and a bit because the people couldn't wait any more. 

And before that?---Before that was everything straight. 

I have no further questions for this witness, Commissioner. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. Thank you, Mr Tooker. 

Mr Roufail, I am not going to release you from your summons 

yet but in a moment you will be able to leave. It is 

probably the case that you will not have to come back, but 

just in case I will not release you from your summons. It 

may be that counsel assisting will have some further 

questions later on, depending upon what other witnesses may 

say, or it also may be the case that counsel representing 

other witnesses may want to ask you some questions in 

relation their clients; but we will let you know one way or 

the other whether you are required to come back or not. If 

you are required you will be required to attend here again 

at the time that we nominate, which we will discuss with 

you in due course, but we will let you know one way or the 


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other. Do you understand?---I will do so. If I'm fit, 

then I come. 

Yes, very well. Thank you for that?---Thanks. 

You are now excused for the time being?---Okay, thank you 

very much. 

(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 


Mr Tooker? 

TOOKER, MR: Thank you, Commissioner. I call William 

Brian Burrows. 

BURROWS, WILLIAM BRIAN called: 

THE COMMISSIONER: Just be seated for the moment, 

Mr Burrows. Yes, Mr Karstaedt? 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Commissioner, I ask for leave to appear on 

behalf of Mr Burrows. 


KARSTAEDT, MR: 

Yes, you have that leave. Thank you. 

Thank you. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Burrows, by section 138 of the act, 

before conducting an examination of you for the purposes of 

an investigation under the Corruption and Crime Commission 

Act I am required to inform you of the general scope and 

purpose of the investigation unless in the circumstances I 

do not think it desirable to do so. 


BURROWS, W.B. XN 

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I do consider that you should be informed of that and so I 

advise you that the general scope and purpose of the 

investigation is to determine if any public officer 

employed by the Department for Planning and Infrastructure 

has, is or may have engaged in misconduct in relation to 

the inspection, licensing and registration of motor 

vehicles or in any other function in their capacity as a 

public officer. Before your examination begins I will 

require you to take an oath or affirmation to tell the 

truth. Which would you prefer?---The oath. 

Thank you. Would you please stand then and take the oath? 

BURROWS, WILLIAM BRIAN sworn: 

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well, thank you. Please be 

seated. I will now tell you of your rights and obligations 

under the Corruption and Crime Commission Act. The act 

says that if you fail to answer any question relevant to 

the investigation that I require you to answer, you will be 

in contempt of the Commission. A contempt of the 

Commission is punishable as a contempt of the Supreme 

Court. You are not excused from the requirement to answer 

the question on the ground that the answer might 

incriminate or tend to incriminate you or render you liable 

to a penalty. When Mr Tooker asks you a question, he will 

be doing so on my behalf and you must answer. If I take 

the view that the question is not relevant or not 

appropriate, I will intervene. In the absence of that 

intervention, however, you must answer the question. I may 

ask you some questions myself in the course of the 

examination but for the most part the questions will be 

asked by Mr Tooker. However, the Corruption and Crime 

Commission Act provides protection for you in the following 

way: anything you say in your evidence here is not 

admissible and cannot be used in evidence against you in 

any criminal prosecution or proceedings against you for the 

imposition of a penalty. There are really only three 

exceptions to that. In your case the only circumstances in 

which what you say here can be used against you are (1) 

where you are charged with contempt of the Commission, as I 

have indicated, (2) where you are charged with an offence 

against the Corruption and Crime Commission Act, such as 

giving false or misleading evidence in this hearing, or (3) 

in disciplinary action against you. What you say here 

cannot be used as evidence against you in any prosecution 

for any other criminal offence. However, if you give 

evidence later in any civil or criminal proceeding which is 

not the same as what you say here, evidence may then be 

given of what you did say here. You must tell the truth 

here. You must give truthful answers to the questions 

asked of you and you have promised to do that by taking the 

oath. If you do give false or misleading evidence, you may 

be committing a crime under the Corruption and Crime 

Commission Act and the maximum penalty for giving false or 

18/2/09 BURROWS, W.B. XN 501 

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misleading evidence to the Commission is a fine of $100,000 

and five years' imprisonment. Do you understand all of 

that?---Yes. 

Thank you, very well. Yes, Mr Tooker? 


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TOOKER, MR: 


Mr Burrows, I understand that you have been sitting in the 

back of the hearing room. Is that right?---That's correct. 

So you would have heard the evidence of Mr Roufail. Is 

that right?---Yes. 

Okay. We are going to get to that in a minute, all right, 

but first I need to ask you some preliminary questions. Do 

you understand?---Yes. 

All right. I understand that you are an authorised vehicle 

examiner at DPI. Is that right?---Yes. 

And your examiner number is 224. Is that right?---Yes. 

How long have you worked for DPI?---Nearly nine years. 

Eight and a half years. 

Until recently I understand you were working at Welshpool 

licensing centre?---Most of the time, yes. 

So was that your permanent placement?---Yes. 

Until recently?---Yes. 

At Welshpool, and - - -?---But we do get moved from place 

to place from time to time. 

Yes. Did you work anywhere other than Welshpool - and I 

mean on a sort of permanent basis?---Over what period of 

time? 

Over those eight and a half years. Has it always been 

Welshpool?---No; no, I've worked at Midland, Kelmscott, 

O'Connor, East Perth and Welshpool. 

How long have you been working at Welshpool for?---Well, 

off and on for the last eight and a half years. 

In December of 08 were you working at Welshpool?---Yes. 

Yes; and you were working Monday to Friday at Welshpool? 

---Yes. 

Basically?---Yeah. 

How long had you been working at Welshpool prior to that? 

---Well, permanently - well, nothing is permanent in our 

department but mainly at Welshpool for the last four years; 

four, five years. 

Do you have some trade qualifications for this job?---Yes, 

I'm a motor mechanic. 


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What did you do before you joined DPI?---I drove buses for 

a few years. 

Have you ever been a mechanic in the private industry? 

---No. Well, I - yeah, I do part-time mechanicking (sic). 

I understand that there's an examination called a full 

examination and a minor examination. Is that right?---Yes. 

What's involved in a full examination?---Check all the 

vehicle details and basically check the lights, brakes, 

steering; jack it up, take it for a drive. 

When you say jack it up, do you mean get under the 

vehicle?---No, you normally do that on the pit. You don't 

get under a vehicle on a jack. It's unsafe. 

As a part of a full examination do you need to get under 

the vehicle?---Yeah, that's why it goes over the pit. 

I'm sorry, I just didn't understand you to say that that 

was a part of the full examination. It is though, isn't 

it?---Yes. 

Yes. So what do you mean by "jack it up"?---Well, you jack 

the front end up and check the ball joints, all the 

suspension parts; and rotate the tyre, check the - if it's 

a front-wheel drive vehicle check the constant velocity 

joints and just wheel bearings, stuff like that. 

What are you looking for when you go into the pit and look 

underneath the car?---There's a multitude of things. Check 

for, yeah, broken parts, split steering rack boots. Do a 

visual inspection of the brake pads if you can get a light 

in there. Check your tail shaft joints. Check the body 

condition. A number of things. Tyres. 


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There's an alternative to that and that would be using a 

hoist. Right?---Yes. 

What cars need to undergo a full examination?---Well, it's 

not just cars. It's most vehicles; all those that are 

unlicensed, yellow sticker, green sticker, and some 

vehicles from the Eastern State that are transferred that 

haven't been in an owner's name for more than 12 months. 

Yeah, there's been that many changes lately it's hard to 

keep up. 

And imported vehicles as well, do they need a full 

examination?---Yes; yeah, imported. 

What about a minor examination, what's involved there? 

---Just check the identity of the vehicle and the tyres. 

That's it, is it?---Contrary to the information you were 

given before, yeah. 

Where does that come from, that that's all you need to do? 

---It was in a written instruction. It's called A category 

vehicle inspection for vehicles under 60,000 kilometres and 

three years of age. 

So for vehicles that are three years or under or 

60,000 kilometres or under - - -?---Yes. 

- - - you can do a minor inspection. Is that right?---Yes. 

Are there any other vehicles that you can do minor 

inspections on?---Well, we do a lot of - you don't really 

call them minor inspections but things like excavators, 

bulldozers, skid steers, road rollers, all those type of 

equipment that we generally inspect at Welshpool, you just 

check the identity, measure it up, check the colour, that 

sort of thing. You don't - you don't jack up an excavator 

and check the wheel bearings or anything like that. 

There's all different types of inspections for different 

types of vehicles. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Are these all the subject of directives 

or instructions from the department?---Well, strictly 

speaking we don't have to inspect plant equipment at all. 

No. My question is: the various kinds of inspections that 

you are talking about, starting with what we have described 

as a minor inspection - - -?---Yep. 

- - - are the different types of inspections the subject of 

directives or instructions or whatever from the 

department?---Well - - - 

Written ones I mean?---There are all sorts of instructions, 

Commissioner, and basically they're all over the place and 


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I've been there nine years and I still don't know half of 

what's to be done, how to do it. It's very involved and 

there sort of is no direct business rules for us. It's 

different instructions for different vehicles. Just like 

instructions for disabled permits, you don't have to pay a 

fee or anything and then you're supposed to fax through the 

information to the medical centre, but half the examiners 

don't know that because they've never read the instruction. 

They've had no training on it. 

Is there an instruction?---There is, yes. 


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Is there a manual?---There's a manual, but that's just - 

that's not a like a business rule thing, how to examine a 

vehicle, that just basically lays out under different 

headings what you can look for in different types of 

vehicles. 

What you can or what you should look for?---What you should 

- well, to be honest I've never read it all. It's pretty 

involved. 

You have been there eight years. Where did you come from 

before that?---I drove buses for a few years and before 

that I was in the army. 

Yes. When you joined up, did you get any induction 

training?---We did two days at O'Connor, where we basically 

got shown what an MR1 form was and a work order, but of 

course we had no idea what we were doing it was all brand 

new to us, and then we were basically farmed out to an 

inspection centre and it was just on-the -job training. 

There was no formal testing or training. There was - to be 

honest, I didn't even do an induction, get shown where the 

toilets were. It was that rushed. They were all under the 

pump. They needed - when I joined there were six of us 

started at the same time. We didn't even have - I didn't 

have the right qualifications. They were just desperate to 

get examiners. 

Were you ever given any documents such as a manual or 

instructions--Yeah, from time to time. Yeah, the manual 

that I imagine you're talking about - - - 

What I'm asking you about?---Is something is the senior 

examiner at Welshpool developed and - but that's only over 

the last two or three years. 

When you say the senior examiner at Welshpool developed it, 

was that a manual that was peculiar to Welshpool or was 

it - - -?---Originally, yes, and he just - he got - because 

he, I don't know, had shown a few other people within the 

department he was asked if he could go ahead and make one 

for the whole of the department, but that all took time 

because there were mistakes in the manual that he had to 

correct and, just dates and times, and all sorts of things 

changed through the, you know, through the process of the 

different laws that are brought out, there's different 

lighting requirements and - - - 

I suppose things would change over time, wouldn't they, 

particularly with changes to regulations and so on?---All 

the time, Commissioner. 

So how are you kept abreast of those?---Generally, word of 

mouth through - look, one vehicle examination centre 

wouldn't have a clue what the other one's doing, and the 


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only reason we used to find out was because we used to get 

moved from station to station and you'd say, "No, that's 

wrong. That's not how you do it, you've got to do it this 

way." 

What's the hierarchy within DPI so far as vehicle 

inspections are concerned? If you have the licensing 

centre, the examiners at the licensing centre, who is in 

charge there?---Well, it used to be called a senior 

examiner, but with the change of times they now call him a 

team leader, which means nothing to the general public that 

come in and start looking the for person in charge. They 

want to see the senior vehicle examiner, and above that it 

has been chaos for the last probably four or five years. 

We've had different managers, we have had no formal 

training or anything. 

All right. Sticking with the hierarchy for the moment, 

let's talk about what it is at the present time?---Yeah. 

After the team leader, that is above the team leader, who 

is there?---That's a good question. 

I don't necessarily mean in terms of a name, but do you 

know the position?---Well, it used to be called the 

coordinator. 


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Yes?---And then above that it was the manager of vehicle 

operations; but what they call them now I've got no idea 

because they changed the structure and now a guy - well, 

when I was last there it was a fellow called Bruce Moore 

and he was in charge of basically all of licensing, but he 

didn't know diddly squat about vehicle examinations. 

Is there any form of training provided to vehicle 

examiners?---The only formal training I've done, I did a 

gas course last year at Challenger TAFE. 

What was that for?---Gas installation. 

What about in terms of training for the way in which you 

are supposed to conduct vehicle examinations or report on 

them or basically do that job?---That was basically left to 

the senior examiner in the - in the licensing centre; but 

as you've heard over the last few years, we've been so busy 

that we haven't been able to do any training whatsoever. 

We've been that busy licensing vehicles we've been - like 

people said, people were lining up at 2 o'clock in the 

morning just to get over the pits. 

What hours did you work, generally speaking?---7.30 till 

4.30 and - because we did do some overtime but then there 

were restrictions on money so they cut out overtime and 

these poor people were just lined up for - one woman I 

remember she was there for eight hours and then I had to go 

and tell her she couldn't come over the pits. She was 

distraught. 

So let me just go back to the documentation. What 

documentation, if any, do you have access to at Welshpool? 

Documentation going to how to conduct examinations, I 

mean?---Well - - - 

And I include in that access to computer-based information 

of course?---Yeah, well, there's another problem we've had: 

never had any proper computer training. The manual is now 

apparently on a disk but you'll find that the disk is only 

compatible to some computers because they haven't got the 

right software and so it's a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

Do you use the computer much or at all for training 

purposes or to learn how you are supposed to do your job? 

---If there's a specific topic that we're looking at at the 

time, then we'll just go to that specific topic; but we 

won't actually scan through the whole manual because 

there's just so much in there. Like Australian Design 

Rules originally used to be two manuals that were 

three-inches thick and basically you had to be an engineer 

to understand what they said. 

All right, thank you. Yes, Mr Tooker? 


2.43 

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TOOKER, MR: 

Thank you, sir. 

Mr Burrows, typically how long does it take to do a full 

inspection of a vehicle over the pits? From when they 

present with their inspection receipt to you handing them 

the paperwork at the end after you have done the computer? 

---Generally we work on half an hour. 

What about a - - -?---That's a car. 

Yes?---A heavy - - - 

Your standard four-door passenger vehicle?---There's light 

vehicles and heavy vehicles. 

Yes. I'm talking about four-door standard passenger 

vehicles?---Okay, yeah. Light vehicle. 

About 30 minutes?---About 30 minutes. That's - that's the 

general time given to - at a booking centre to examine a 

vehicle. 

Sure, but is that how it works generally? It takes you 

about half an hour from whoa to go?---Yeah; but, you know, 

some vehicles are easier than others and there are 

operators that know the procedures so they go through 

quicker. You don't have to explain, "Turn the headlights 

on and put it on high beam," and then they ask, "Which 

ones? How do you do that?" and, you know. If you get a 

person that comes over the pits often, which the more 

experienced people do, we target them so that - because we 

know it's going to make our job easier to examine the 

vehicle. 


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What do you mean you target them?---Well, you just - the 

people that come over the pits more often know the 

procedure. They know - they drive onto the pit, we don't 

have to guide them on, then we don't have to say, "Turn the 

engine off, turn the headlights on" and "Try your 

right-hand indicator." "You need to turn your ignition 

on," all that sort of stuff. If someone comes over the 

pits daily, which a lot of the dealers do, they just know 

the procedure. They just drive on the pit, flick the 

headlights on, try the indicators, high beam, toot the 

horn, windscreen wipers, washers, go round the back, check 

the tail lights, brake lights, reverse lights. Then you go 

underneath, check the steering, it's all done - that 

process is done in literally five minutes, and then all 

that's required is to jack it up and take it for a drive. 

So you're basically - if you've got an experienced 

operator, it's over in 10 minutes that process, but then 

you've y got to go and do the paperwork. 

On average, would you say it takes about 30 minutes for 

your standard four-door passenger car for a full 

inspection?---That's what I said before. 

What about your typical minor examination on a four-door 

passenger car. How long does that take?---Five minutes, 

max. 

With all the paperwork?---Generally, yeah. If it's an 

Eastern States one, probably a little bit longer, but if it 

has been licensed in Western Australia, five minutes by the 

time you - again, if you've got an experienced operator. 

So you check the tyres to make sure it's got tread. Is 

that basically the position?---That's - yeah. 

And the details, why do you need to check the details? 

---The vehicle identification, VIN number, engine number 

and compliance date. 

To make sure it's the actual vehicle that you're dealing 

with, not some ghosted car or something like that? Is that 

the position--Yeah. Yeah, you check the identity. It's 

hard to ghost a vehicle nowadays. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Judging by the trade, somebody is doing 

it quite well?---Is that right? 

Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: 


Abraham Roufail, do you know him?---Yes. 

When did you first meet him?---Probably not long after I 

started. 


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Did you get to meet him through Welshpool first?---Yes. 

Was he a regular customer through Welshpool back then? 

---Yes. 

Did you get to know him quite well over the years?---Of 

course. 

Would you describe him as a friend or not?---Not someone - 

just every time he comes in the pits, yeah, he's very 

friendly. 

He's friendly?---Yeah. I sort of don't go to dinner with 

him or anything. 

Can you give us some idea of how he operated, how often he 

was in there and what kind of character he was?---In the 

old days he'd in three or four times a day before the 

queues were out the gate. He was always in with vehicles. 

That was his job. Sorry, what was the remainder of 

that - - - 

Yes, just how often he would come in and what kind of a 

character he was around the licensing centre?---He was 

always - like Abe said, he knew everyone. He'd refer to 

people he knew 30 years ago, you know, say, "I saw 

so-and-so," you know. Yeah, he's generally very well-known 

in the industry. 


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Have you done a lot of examinations for Mr Roufail over the 

years?---Lots. 

Would you say that you have done more for him than the 

others?---Possibly, yeah. 

Can you tell us - - -?---Because - - - 

Sorry?---Like I said, you know, you get a good operator 

that knows what they're doing, it makes your job easier and 

you can - and he generally brought in very good vehicles 

so, you know, once you become a bit more experienced you 

get a bit more thrifty and you make your job easier by 

picking people that know what they're doing and - - - 

But how do you pick them?---Well, because they come back 

all the time. Like there's certain dealers that come in 

all the time; John Hughes, Action Motors, Fobus, like all - 

we know all of the people from there. Fobus bring in, you 

know, Westside - like they used to be WA Auto Auctions but 

they changed their name but, you know, the guys - we used 

to know the guys. All the time they used to come in; you 

know, they'd bring - they'd be down there eight times a 

day. 

THE COMMISSIONER: I would like to understand how it works 

in a practical sense, so let's perhaps go back to the 

beginning. We have heard that at Welshpool appointments 

cannot be made?---No. 

People wanting cars examined or vehicles examined have to 

queue. They have to line up?---Yes. 

How does it work from that point on, physically?---Well, 

there's - when we first start in the morning someone will 

open the gate and they all come in and queue up and 

then - - - 

How many pits are there?---There's three pits and they're 

broken down into heavy vehicles, cars and medium-sized 

vehicles, but we use two lanes for cars basically and the 

other one is heavy vehicles. 

Are examiners allocated to individual pits or what?---No, 

no, no. 

How does that work?---You just go out and select the next 

person which is a dog's breakfast again. You call out and 

say, "Who's next," and about three hands go up in the air. 

What do you do now? 

As a vehicle examiner you could be looking at any category 

of vehicle over any pit. Is that right?---Yeah. There's 

three pits but there's other - there's two other lanes. 


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Yes?---One for trailers and one for new vehicles. So you 

can go out and there'd be a selection of five lanes 

basically. 

So does that still apply though - as a vehicle examiner you 

go out and you get the next vehicle in line, in effect, but 

you could find yourself then dealing with any type of 

vehicle in any of the lanes or over any pit. Is that 

right?---That's correct. 

Yes, Mr Tooker? 

TOOKER, MR: 


You have used the word "target" and you have said that you 

target these experienced operators. How do you do that? 

---Well, you go out and, you know - because you're working 

there you know who is in the line, who is - you know, 

because they all stand around and chat and you say, 

"There's so-and-so," and, "There's so-and-so," and they 

also come up and say hello because we've been working, you 

know, in partnership for years. They've been coming to the 

pits for years and years and years. 

So if Abe Roufail was in the line, you would know about it 

because he would probably come up and say hello and you 

would know he was there?---Yeah. Abe says hello to 

everyone. 

And so if you knew that an experienced operator like Abe 

Roufail was in the line, then you would be looking to get 

him next or whatever?---For sure; makes your job easier. 


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THE COMMISSIONER: But if there's a queue how do you 

actually pull people out of the queue?---Well, there's - 

sometimes there can be eight examiners so, you know, 

between six and eight examiners, so the queue sort of - 

people don't think it moves fast but on our standard it 

does move along pretty well; and you just, you know, Abe's 

always anxious to get over the pit anyway so he's always 

ready to go, where the other people can be sitting on the 

seat on the side and you go out and say, "Who's next?" and 

if there's no-one in the car or, you know, they'll be 

talking to someone else down the queue; because they're 

sitting there for hours, they all basically have a meeting. 

TOOKER, MR: So it's not like the cars are lined up behind 

each other?---Yeah. 

They are?---Yeah, but - - - 

So he would have to get to the front of one of those queues 

wouldn't he?---Yeah; yeah. 

Which queue does he use?---Well, generally he uses the new 

vehicle which is now for the minor inspections as well; and 

the other thing, if the queues are shorter you obviously 

get in the shorter queue. It's like going to the bank, you 

know, you get in the shortest queue. Even - you know, even 

though it says "heavy vehicles" you can still put a car in 

the line. 

So would Abe generally put his cars in the new vehicle line 

even if they weren't new vehicles?---Not generally, no. 

Not that I'm aware of, no. He just - because he's been 

doing it for 30 years he knows the way things operate and 

he just goes to the - you know, the - what looks to be the 

quickest queue. 

And do you work on a particular pit during the day or is 

all over the pits?---No. 

So it's not like you get allocated to the new vehicle pit 

and that's what you do all day?---No; no. There mightn't 

be any new vehicles there. You'd have nothing to do all 

day. You go out and just select one of the next ones 

along. 

So there's a bit of discretion there for you? You might 

have five cars at the front of the queues and - - -? 

---Well, a new bloke's going to go out and just - it's - 

like it's human nature to go to the first vehicle you see 

rather than the last one, and the new blokes will generally 

go out and select the first queue because it's there; but 

us that have been there a bit longer will go out and say, 

"There's an easy job on lane 4, we'll go and do that one." 

So you get to be a bit thrifty over the years. 


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Have you ever done an examination for Abe where he wasn't 

in the line and you did it sort of off to the side?---Yes. 

Yes. Where would he generally park his cars for doing 

that?---Just on the side. 

And what, would he call you over, come and see you, 

whatever, and say, "Could you do a quick one for me"? 

---He'd catch my attention and we'd have a look, yeah. 

THE COMMISSIONER: I suppose this process that you are 

describing where you have examiners come out and looking 

for the easy job, as you have just said, pull people out 

from different parts of the line, it might not go over too 

well with other people who were ahead of them in the line? 

---You have a few punch-ups. 

TOOKER, MR: Have you ever done an examination for Abe on 

the side that should have been a full examination? 

---Possibly, yeah. I don't - I can't remember if, you 

know, it's been an A or a full one. 

What's an A?---An A is just an identity check. 

Is that a minor inspection?---Yeah, a minor inspection. 

THE COMMISSIONER: I think you said earlier that - you 

referred earlier to there being an instruction in relation 

to that?---Yes. 

Do you know what it's called or where we would find it?---I 

think it's just minor inspection. It'll be on - Mr Jenner 

will be able to help you out. 


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64/27/sjr 

All right, we can follow that up?---It's - it'll be on the 

system there somewhere. 

TOOKER, MR: How often would it be that you would go and 

help out Abe by examining a car on the side?---Not often, 

just - you know, if there was a queue out the gate, there's 

a lane down the right-hand side where you can drive past 

and if the queue is out the gate, he's probably just drive 

down the side with a - because you can't even get to the 

other pits or the other lanes, because it's that full with 

vehicles, he'd just come down the side there and, yeah, 

just do the vehicle on the side. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you give us an indication of how 

many vehicles you might get queued up at any one stage 

there?---The first day we started TRELIS they were out the 

gate, down Murray Road and around on Orrong Road. There 

was probably 200 vehicles in the queue. It was just chaos. 

What about since then?---Well, when - at the peak when 

everyone was coming over, I used to go down the line and I 

used to have to tell people to move their vehicle, because 

they were blocking the roadway. You couldn't get into the 

pits. The people at work couldn't get in to come to work 

because the gate was blocked with vehicles. I used to have 

to go up and move vehicles so that the office staff could 

get into work. 

Okay, this is Welshpool where you can't make appointments. 

There are other centres where - - -?---No, this is long - 

this is before the booking system started. That all - the 

booking system didn't start until recently after the 

George McCulloch report. 

Right. When was that?---Exactly, I can't remember. It 

would be probably 18 months ago, Commissioner. 

What was that on?---That was on the debacle of the 

licensing system basically. He did a full - no, it was 

when the Rugby world cup was on, just before the Rugby 

world cup in France. I don't remember the date, but I 

remember he got a trip over there from the department 

basically, because of the report he did. The report was 

basically on the shortcomings of the licensing system, 

driver's licences, vehicle licences, where vehicle 

examination centres should be, where licensing centres 

should be. He did all the demographics, the population 

growths and all that sort of stuff, and yeah, basically all 

that came out of it was a booking system. 

How do you find the booking system works?---I don't really 

know, Commissioner, because we haven't got - - - 

Did you ever work with it?---I did for a little while at - 

probably a week or two at Kelmscott, but it was pretty good 


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because you were just sitting on your butt all day. 

Why is that?---Because people didn't show up for 

appointments. It was - you know, and you were given a 

certain amount of time to do a vehicle and if you did it in 

a shorter period of time, then you'd just sit around and 

wait for another vehicle to come, and they mightn't show 

up, so yeah, it was a pretty cruisey life for them, 

meanwhile we were working out butts off. 


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65/29/rds 

Mr Burrows, have you ever gone to Eurotyres to inspect a 

vehicle?---No. 

Have you ever passed a vehicle for Abe Roufail without 

actually seeing the vehicle?---Yes. 

How many times do you reckon you have done that?---Once or 

twice, a few more maybe. Mainly new vehicles. 

How did you know they were new vehicles?---Because of the 

date of manufacture and the - yeah. 

THE COMMISSIONER: On the form you mean?---No. You can 

search the vehicle on the computer and it comes up a 2007, 

2008 vehicle. Probably, you know, like Newtown Toyota. 

They only deal with like demo cars and things like that. 

TOOKER, MR: You would have seen that evidence that I 

played earlier in relation to the lime-green Mitsubishi 

ute?---Yes. 

You never saw that vehicle, did you?---No; no. I don't 

recall that one at all. 

So can you tell me what happened in relation to that one, 

with the paperwork?---No. To be honest, no, I don't - 

don't recall at all. 

THE COMMISSIONER: I suppose you wouldn't have much to 

recall, would you? It would just be the document?---Yeah. 

TOOKER, MR: Do you think it would be accurate as 

Mr Roufail said, that he gave you his word that it 

was - - -?---Yeah; yeah. 

- - - he had changed the tyres and everything was okay? 

---Because he was in the tyre business I thought, well, 

yeah, he's going to do the right thing by the customer and 

generally look after them and do the right thing by me. 

So you knew it was a yellow sticker for that one?---Yeah. 

I must've. 

You would have seen the MR that came up on the screen? 

---Yeah; yeah. 

Would you like me to show it to you again just to - - -? 

---No. It was all my writing. 

It was your handwriting?---Yep. 

So it had words scribbled over it, "work order", at the 

top. You could hardly read it but I think I could just 

make it out?---Yeah. 


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Was that you?---Yep. That was a bit of a - what's the word 

for it? I can't think of the word for it but what happened 

was - previously we just used to throw the MR1s in the bin. 

We were told there was no need to keep them. So we used to 

throw them in the bin, and then we just used to keep the 

MRs for the vehicles that were licensed and then, to make 

our job even harder, we had to write out an MR1 for a work 

order which was already licensed. All the vehicle details 

are there. All we were doing was checking the numbers and 

then we had to fill out this form in - you know, completely 

fill out the form and, yeah, it just made more work for us 

when we were already under the pump. 

Have you passed any other vehicles that had yellow stickers 

for Abe Roufail?---Not that I recall. 

Did Abe give you any money - - -?---No. 

- - - for doing that job?---No. 

For any jobs?---No. 

Did you ever get anything out of him?---He used to bring in 

some Lebanese bread and throw it on the counter and we'd 

all get some - take some Lebanese bread home at the end of 

the day or occasionally - I don't know if Abe did but might 

bring a carton of beer in or something but no, nothing 

else. 

Did you ever pass vehicles without inspecting them for 

anyone else?---Not that I know of. 

So why did you provide these favours to Abe Roufail? 

---Basically, like I said, we sort of had a bit of a 

rapport over all the years and just - you know, you just 

get to help out some people more than others. 


Spark & Cannon

66/31/glj 

Obviously this is your chance to provide any other 

explanation that you have. Do you have any, apart from the 

fact that you got to know him over the years, as to why you 

might pass vehicles without inspecting them or go off to 

the side and do them quickly even though he didn't line 

up?---Well, can you rephrase that? 

Is there any other reason for you helping out Abe Roufail 

in this way?---No. I've just basically known him for 

practically the time I've worked there and, you know, we've 

just become sort of friendly over the years. 

Sure. How long would you say it has been going on that you 

have perhaps passed cars without seeing them?---Since - 

since we're under the pump, you know, in the last 12 months 

or so that we were really under the pump and you just try 

and help people out, make it so they didn't have to sit in 

a queue for eight hours and - yeah. 

THE COMMISSIONER: So have you done it for anyone else? 

---Possibly some friends. You tell them to come down the 

side and just do a quick check on their vehicle. 

Have you passed any other vehicles for anyone else without 

actually seeing the vehicles?---No; no. 

TOOKER, MR: I want to show you those charts that we 

showed to Mr Roufail?---Mm'hm. 

We will start with chart 5. All right, this is a chart 

from June 2004 to December 2008 and if we focus on your 

cluster which is at the far left. You heard me explain 

these clusters to Mr Roufail. Do you understand - - -? 

---Yeah. 

- - - generally how they operate?---Yeah. 

All right, so each one is a pit pass. So you did 272 in 

that three and a half year period for Mr Roufail, and if we 

move to the right I think your next best competitor would 

be Peter Howard on 119; and then if you move further 

across, third place 32 examinations; fourth place, 30. If 

we keep moving across, 18 et cetera, et cetera. It goes 

down?---Are they all - - - 

What's your explanation for the fact that you have done a 

disproportionate number of examinations for Mr Roufail? 

---Well, I've probably been there the longest; and also, 

you know, like I said you make your job easier, go and pick 

an easy target and get the job done and out of there. 

THE COMMISSIONER: So they would - - -?---See, some of 

those people that - like Jackie Chan - - - 


3.07 

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Would you like us to make that bigger? We can expand that 

if you want to see it?---Yes, see, Geoff Chan's - he was 

only on the pits for a short time so obviously if he's only 

been there six months he's not going to do as many jobs as 

I have that have been there for four years. Same with 

Peter. Peter was at O'Connor so, you know, average it out 

and the time you spent there, it creates a different 

statistic. 


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67/33/sjr 

So were you at Welshpool for that entire three and a half 

year period?---I'd say so, yeah. 

Was anyone else there for that entire period?---Who are the 

other people? Peter was away at O'Connor for a long time. 

THE COMMISSIONER: We can of course break those statistics 

down in different ways. We can break it down in date 

orders and all sorts of things?---You know what they say 

about statistics, Commission, don't you. 

Yes. We are talking about hard, objective material here. 

All I'm talking about is analysing what's there?---Yeah. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Commissioner, may I just ask whether it 

could be clarified whether this - - - 

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you just move to the left, in 

front of the microphone. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: I'm sorry, whether this diagram only 

relates to Welshpool as opposed to the licensing centres 

generally. 


Mr Tooker? 

Yes. That's the case, is it not, 

TOOKER, MR: This chart, if we go to the heading, 

represents, as I understand it, all of the inspections done 

for A and J Roufail Auto Repairs over that period, so 

if - - - 


So it's not just Welshpool? 

TOOKER, MR: That's right. So if A and J Roufail Auto 

Repairs purchased a pit pass or MR receipt, we can link 

that back to who inspected - - - 


So it's not just Welshpool? 

TOOKER, MR: It's not just Welshpool, it's all the pits, 

all the pit passes over those three and a half years?---I 

was going to say, because Paul Moir hasn't been at 

Welshpool for years, so he must've done his work at 

Kelmscott. There's all sorts of variants in there that can 

be explained. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, we can look at those and obviously 

we will, but if it's not just Welshpool over that period of 

time, then that does go to the point that you were making, 

I think, Mr Burrows, because it covers all of the 

inspections over that period of time anywhere?---Yeah. 

Mm'hm, but you know, if you average it out, it's about one 

a week, so that's not an extraordinary number of vehicles. 


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You're saying, as I understand your evidence, so there is 

no particular reason for that as far as you're concerned, 

it's just the way the figures fall out?---Well, yeah, and 

because you know, like I say, you target certain people 

because you know it's going to make your job easier. If 

you've got an A vehicle that's going to take you five 

minutes, you're going to choose that over another vehicle 

that is going to take you an hour. 

A couple of thoughts that occur about that. You have to be 

there for your whole working day anyway, you're supposed to 

be examining vehicles?---Yeah. 

That answer suggests to me that what you would be looking 

for it to get a significantly higher number through in the 

period. Would that be the point of it?---Yeah, that as 

well as - you're not going to go out and purposely pick a 

work order that could take you an hour, and create all the 

extra paperwork involved in doing a work order, against an 

A vehicle or a box trailer or - it's - - - 

Okay, so it's easier to do an A vehicle, not only because 

the inspection is simpler, but because there's not likely 

to be any more paperwork or other things associated with 

it?---The paperwork is a whole lot easier, you know. 


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TOOKER, MR: You talk about targeting people in the line. 

Did you ever feel that Abe Roufail targeted you as an 

inspector?---I suppose it went both ways, you know. The 

same with people from Action Motors. I mean, if you do a 

graph on Action Motors or WA Auto Auctions, or for instance 

GTE I did 75 in one day at GTE. I mean, it makes 55 in a 

year look pretty ordinary, doesn't it, when I do 75 in a 

year - in a day. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that at the licensing centre or 

somewhere else?---No; no, I went on site and did that. 

Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: Did you ever feel uncomfortable or anything; 

that you were being targeted or - - -?---I wouldn't say 

uncomfortable but it just sort of - it got a bit 

monotonous, you know. Sometimes you'd want to talk to 

other people and I got to know a lot about Abe's medical 

history and his father and his - you know, we'd swap notes 

on different family members and, yeah, we became sort of 

very personal in a lot of ways. Like Abe's had his medical 

problems and his father was crook and, you know? You sort 

of - it sort of creates a conversation when you first get 

to the - get to meet them on the next day, you know, "How 

you going? How's your ticker going?" and all that sort of 

stuff. 

Did you ever feel uneasy when you passed a yellow sticker 

for him without seeing the car?---Yeah; yeah. It's just 

not the right thing to do. 

Did you ever wish sometimes he'd just go away and leave you 

alone?---Yeah, sometimes; yeah. 

I need to show you, I think, an MR1 for that lime-green 

Triton ute because there's a question I need to ask you 

about it. CCC bar code 1182. All right, that's the one we 

were talking about earlier. That's your handwriting 

there?---Yeah; yeah. 

And then on the bottom of that page that's your signature? 

---Yeah. 

Yes; and then if we go over the page to the very bottom of 

page 2, again that's your signature on 31 October?---Yes. 

Yes; and it does read in that box, doesn't it, "I certify 

that I have inspected this vehicle in accordance with the 

policies and procedures of the department and that it is in 

a roadworthy condition"?---Yes. 

With that car you didn't inspect it so you weren't in a 

position to certify it?---That's correct. 


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3.15 

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Is that what made you uneasy, that - - -?---Yeah. 

- - - you were certifying these things as 

roadworthy - - -?---Yes. 

- - - and you hadn't seen them?---Yeah. 

All right. 

THE COMMISSIONER: So why did you?---On the day I probably 

had a point of weakness and the people out the gate and, 

yeah, couldn't be bothered making him come in, I suppose. 

It's just it's been pretty stressful over the past couple 

of years and anything to make your job just that little bit 

easier, help people out in the queue, you just do it. 


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69/38/rds 

Did you also do it because it was something that he would 

regularly ask you to do?---No. He just - because it was - 

I think it had something to do with tyres and he was in - 

or his daughter was in the tyre business and I just took 

his word for it that he was going to do it properly. 

If we can go back to the chart. Perhaps this time chart 6 

because it shows that upper bit clearer. You would have 

seen from the earlier evidence that there was this one 

fail. I have got some more information about that one now. 

It's a 2004 scooter, a black scooter. Do you remember that 

one?---I don't think so. 

I have got the paperwork. It looks like you have passed it 

on the paperwork but somehow there has been some mix-up 

with the computer and it was failed on the computer at one 

point. Is this ringing any bells?---No. 

Just if we focus on that red one in Mr Burrows' cluster. 

The computer system has pulled it up as a failure, that one 

on 10 November 2008?---Mm'hm. 

But the paperwork actually shows it as a pass. We have 

obtained these over lunch. Can you assist us at all in 

relation to that scooter? 

THE COMMISSIONER: Would you like to look at the 

paperwork?---Yeah, if possible; yeah. It doesn't ring a 

bell. 

TOOKER, MR: I can show Mr Burrows the certificate of 

inspection for MR560730. 


Thank you?---(indistinct) scooter, yep. 

TOOKER, MR: Commissioner, I should say that - I ask that 

further inquiries be made in relation to this vehicle, 

given that it's a stand-out one fail out of 272 and we are 

trying to get to the bottom of why Mr Burrows failed - why 

it's coming up as a fail, this one vehicle. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So the position, as I understand 

it, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Burrows, is that the 

paperwork that you have there in front of you is the 

certificate relating to that vehicle and the certificate 

indicates it was a pass. Is that correct?---Yes. We print 

out another form and sometimes you can click the wrong box 

on the - the mouse moves and instead of "pass", it goes 

"fail", so I don't - I can't explain that. 

Do you want to see that, Mr Karstaedt? Do you want to see 

those documents? 


Yes, please. 


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Yes, very well. 

Thank you. 

TOOKER, MR: Just so I'm clear, you are saying it's 

possible that it could have been a click of the mouse? 

---Yeah; yeah, and sometimes we - you automatically stamp 

and sign things, you know, and there's numerous occasions 

where you actually sign it as being passed and it's 

actually failed and you go - and the customers goes around 

the front to license it and then they say, "It hasn't been 

passed on the computer system," because we failed it on the 

computer system but passed it on the paperwork. So it can 

come back and bite you on the bum. 


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So if that's the case that it is a pass, then it looks like 

it's a hundred per cent pass rate for Mr Roufail then? 

---Could be. 

Do you know what your normal fail rate is?---It's not very 

high. 

Out of a hundred, how many on average would it be?---I 

wouldn't have a clue. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Sir, could I just ask - - - 


Yes. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: A normal failure rate, I just wonder 

whether it might be appropriate to compare apples with 

apples. Is just an average overall or an average - - - 

THE COMMISSIONER: I think the question is directed to the 

witness's overall failure rate. 





Considering all types of customers? 

Yes. 

Very well. Thank you. 

Is that correct, Mr Tooker? 

TOOKER, MR: 

Yes, Commissioner?---I wouldn't know. 

Can you give us any idea out of a hundred how many you 

would fail on average, across all vehicles?---Probably two 

or three, four, not many. When I first went for the 

interview we were told that our job was to pass people, so 

that's what we generally try and do. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Who told you that?---That was then the 

coordinator at the time. 

At Welshpool?---No, no, when we did the initial interview 

for the job. 

Yes?---He - there was the manager and the coordinator 

interviewed us and then basically the next week we started. 

Okay. 

TOOKER, MR: You would have heard some calls that I played 

to Roufail between Coco and Susan Jabbour?---Mm'hm. 

There was some talk in those calls, I can play them to you 

again if you want, about you not doing them any more. Do 

you remember hearing that?---Yeah, I've got no idea what it 


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refers to. 

No. There wasn't a time when you said to Abe Roufail, 

"Look, I'm not doing your cars any more. Go away"?---No, I 

don't think so. No. I might've gone on leave or something 

like - - - 

That was going to be my next question. In late 2008, did 

you have any extended periods of leave?---No. I went into 

the technical section for a while. 


When was that?---At Welshpool. 

When?---Probably October or November, I'm not - round about 

then. 

For how long?---About three or four weeks, I think. 

TOOKER, MR: What's the technical section?---That's the 

section - we call it "tech section" but it's now referred 

to as the vehicle safety branch. That's basically where 

people apply for modifications, different inquiries about 

how to license different types of vehicles, like normal 

vehicles that aren't generally licensed for road use, that 

sort of thing. They give out technical advice to 

customers, answer a lot of phone calls from the contact 

centre. 

The Jabbours, Susan and Jimy Jabbour, do you know them?---I 

know Susie, yeah. 


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You know that they run Eurotyres?---Yes. 

Have you examined many cars for them?---I don't recall 

doing any actually. 

All right?---Susie used to bring cars over for Abe before, 

so I would've done them years ago when she - I think she 

left school and went and worked there part-time or 

something and then she went and got married and then they 

took over the business. So from time to time she's been in 

and I would've done some cars. 

Yes. I will just show you chart 3 now. Previously I 

showed you charts for pit passes for Abe Roufail. These 

are the pit passes for J. and S. Jabbour, so it's Jimy and 

Susan Jabbour out at Eurotyres?---Mm'hm. 

Again, this is from June 2004 to December 2008 - and, 

Commissioner, it's not three and a half years; I have 

miscalculated, it's four and half years. 


Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: So I put that on the record; but if we move 

to the centre of the document and focus in on the examiners 

we should be able to pick up Mr Burrows. It's cluster 5 

from the left. There it is. 


There he is. 

TOOKER, MR: All right. So that shows you doing 

eight examinations for them. If you look at the dates they 

are generally 07 and 08. Do you see that?---Yep. 

Have you ever conducted an on-site inspection for the 

Jabbours out at Eurotyres?---No. 

Have you ever had Susie come up to you and say, "Can you 

inspect one around the side"?---No. 

Have you ever inspected a car for the Jabbours without 

actually inspecting the car? Sorry, have you ever passed a 

car for the Jabbours without actually inspecting the car? 

---No. 

Do you know of any other examiners at Welshpool or 

elsewhere who have passed cars without inspecting them? 

---No. 

Do you know any other businessmen like Mr Roufail who seem 

to put cars over the pits for a business, for car yards? 

Is there anyone else like that out there?---I imagine there 

are. I'm just trying to think. No, I can't think of any 

at the time. 


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Do you know George Raphael?---No. 

I want to show you an email now. It's CCC bar code 1178. 

Just have a read of that email and see if you remember it? 

---Yes, I do. 

So it's an email dated 1 December 2008 and it's from you to 

Bruce Moore. Is that right?---Yes. 

And Bruce Moore works at the department?---He's - he was 

the person in charge of our licensing section, over - of 

all the licensing sections. 

So was he the manager of vehicle operations--I'm not sure 

that's his title. 

Okay. Just in a summary, can you tell us what this email 

was about--Yeah, I was relieving as the team leader and we 

were - we're supposed to conduct an audit on all the MR1s 

and I came across some that I didn't think were quite 

correct so I went and consulted with another senior person 

at Welshpool in the audit section and that's not the email 

that I originally drafted up but he - he embellished it, 

you could say. 

THE COMMISSIONER: How did he do that? It's your email, 

isn't it?---Yeah. He - we sat together and wrote the 

email, then he forwarded it to me and then I forwarded it 

on to Bruce Moore. 

TOOKER, MR: Who told you to do an audit of MR1s?---It was 

a procedure. It had just come into place a month or so 

before where the senior examiner had to audit all the MR1s 

and find any faults on the MR1, like missing details. 

Because what was happening was people were putting the car 

down as white and it was actually black; and that's another 

problem we've got, is that the computer brings back the old 

colour and if you don't check it it doesn't get corrected. 

So we were basically just checking the MR1s, and any - any 

details that were missing we'd give it back to the examiner 

to make sure that they'd filled in the correct details. 

Is this because there's an audit done of the MR1s, the 

original ones compared to the computer and it's a KPI 

measurement? Is that how it was told to you?---I - to be 

honest, I just - I think I must've recently came out of the 

tech section and in fact I think that was - I think that 

was the second or the first day I was in that position. 

I'd come out of the technical section so I must have been 

in there in November because that's dated 1 December; and 

it was my first day as acting team leader and, yeah, I just 

- going through the MR1s and I found these, what looked 

like odd - odd occurrences on the - on the MR1s. 


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What was odd?---The fact that the booking sheet didn't 

reflect the jobs that were on the MR1s and the MR32s, I 

think you call them. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Is the booking sheet the log, 

effectively, of the vehicles that have been through the 

licensing centre?---No, there's an on-site booking system 

and those companies that book up, ring up and book for an 

on-site inspection they're all listed on it, and some of 

those - - - 

I see. When you go out to them, you mean?---Yes. 

Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: So what was the irregularity? There was the 

on-line, the on-site booking sheet and then you had the 

MR1s, what was the problem?---Well, the one examiner hadn't 

actually - had listed 10 jobs on his sheet that weren't on 

the actual running sheet for the on-site bookings, and then 

when I had a look at them, there were three there that were 

write-offs, and this particular examiner hates doing writeoffs 

and we had stopped doing write-offs at Welshpool the 

month before, so that was odd, and there were a couple of 

others at a couple of car yards and I think, I'm not sure 

what the others were, but they just didn't gel with me. 

Who are we talking about, what examiner?---Brent Kain. 

I think you talked about an MR32 before. Is it an MR23, 

the daily work sheet?---Yeah, it could be. Yeah. 

I might just pull up the MR23 that's relevant to this. 

Yes, here it is. It's CCC bar code 1216. That email was 

sent on the 28th - sorry, that email is on 1 December 08? 

---Mm'hm. 

This is the MR23 for 28 November 08?---That's correct. 

Do you see that, in the top right-hand corner? This one, 

the examiner's details, surname, in the top left says 

Howard/Brent?---Mm'hm. 

Would that be Peter Howard and Brent Kain?---Yes. 

And then if we scroll through the pages for this date, 

you've got the second page and then over the page, the 

third page, and then over the page, page 4, and it looks 

like a total of 83 on-site inspections. Do you see that? 

---Yeah. 


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Yes. Is that out of the ordinary to do 83 on-site 

inspections - - -?---No. 

- - - for a two-man team in a day?---No. 

Okay; and why is that not out of the ordinary?---Well, it's 

not - not unusual but it's a high figure, which can be done 

in a day because mainly they're all new vehicles. 

If we look at these - sorry to go back, but perhaps if we 

go back to page 1 - they get a status code don't they for 

the type of vehicle?---Yep. 

So all those A's on page 1, what are they? They are minor 

inspections are they?---They're all minor, yeah. 

And then the second page?---Yeah, minor and - - - 

A large number of A's and some H's. What are H's?---New 

vehicles. 

And I's? It says "one entry per vehicle". What does that 

mean?---What do you mean? 

The code down at the bottom. Bottom left-hand corner 

there's a key to what the letters mean?---Yeah, "I". 

Generally it's like a modification or something like that. 

All right; and over the page to page 3, we have got a 

whole - - - 

THE COMMISSIONER: This is page 3. 

TOOKER, MR: Yes, this is page 3. I think we were on 

page 2 before. 

Yes, they are all A's; and then over to page 4, we have got 

some more H's?---Mm'hm. 

And then there's a further page though for this date. Go 

over. No, it's not there. 


No, this is 4 of four. 

TOOKER, MR: 

bar code. 

Sorry, Commissioner, it has a separate 


Very well. 

TOOKER, MR: So I call for CCC bar code 1217. Just keep 

in your mind that that's the MR23 for 28 November for Peter 

Howard and Brent Kain. All right, this one is also 

28 November and it's in the name of Kain. Is this the 

sheet that troubled you?---Yes. 


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Yes; and just explain to us again, perhaps with reference 

to the type of examinations that were being conducted, why 

this concerned you?---Initially because of the inspections 

they'd done, Peter and Brent had done together; and then 

Brent had a separate sheet and when I looked at the 

vehicles on that sheet it just didn't make sense. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Why doesn't it?---Well, because when I 

checked three of them, three of them were write-offs. 

Which ones were they?---Without checking, Commissioner, I 

wouldn't know. 

You can't tell from the form?---Possibly the top three. 

Yes?---Then the other thing that didn't jell was Polmac 

Trailers. 

Yes?---And Cannington and Raphael House didn't jell. 

TOOKER, MR: Who runs Cannington Autohouse, do you know? 

---The Raphael boys. 

It's George Raphael's brother isn't it?---I don't know. 

It's Tony and Michael. 

Yes?---I don't know if it's his brother or not. 


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And Raphael House, who runs that? Do you know?---It's the 

same place. 

In your evidence earlier, you said that this wasn't on the 

on-site booking sheet. Do you mean to say that all of 

these car yards and various places on this sheet weren't 

listed on the booking system?---As far as I can remember, 

yeah. 

Tell me, I think you said earlier, your usual full 

inspection would take half an hour?---Yeah. 

And a B inspection of an unlicensed vehicle would be half 

an hour?---Mm'hm. 


That's a yes, I take it?---Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: So if you count up the B's, you've got three 

hours of work there, plus another half an hour in the new 

vehicles. Is that right?---That's right. 

So you've got about three and a half hour's work just 

sitting on that sheet there?---Yeah. 

Plus 83 vehicles on that same day?---Yeah. 

Is that what smelled a bit funny?---Yes. 

Was anything done about that, do you know?---I just sent 

the email and then two days later we were all put off, 

so - - - 

Did you ever speak to Brent Kain about that?---No. 

THE COMMISSIONER: When you say you were all put off, do 

you mean you were all stood down, I think, weren't you? 

---Yes. 

And that was a result of the Commission's investigation, 

was it not?---Yes. 

Yes. 

TOOKER, MR: 

Yes, I have no further questions. 


All right, thank you, Mr Tooker. 

Mr Burrows, as I think you have already indicated you were 

here earlier when evidence was given by Susan Jabbour and 

Abraham Roufail. Is that correct?---Yes. 

Did it come as a surprise to you to learn the nature of 

Mrs Jabbour's dealings in particular with individual DPI 

vehicle inspectors?---Yes. 


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In what way?---I - it just didn't seem that those guys 

would get involved in that sort of stuff. 

What was your reaction to the process that she was 

describing in terms of whether you consider that to be a 

correct way of going business or not?---A bit dodgy. 

A bit dodgy? All right. One of the explanations she gave 

and you have made a similar point in perhaps a different 

way, is that one of the purposes was to avoid queuing? 

---Yes. 

Obviously, allowing her or indeed her father to get ahead 

of other people in the queue in the sense of being dealt 

with more quickly than others would assist them. Would you 

agree?---Yes. Yes. 

As I understand your evidence, that sort of thing in 

relation to Mr Roufail, for example, and you also from your 

point of view assisted you, is that right, in the sense 

that it made it easier for you to do your job?---Yes, so 

you don't have to explain everything in single-word 

syllables to new people. 


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Would you agree though that giving preferential treatment 

to people like that would obviously have had the 

countervailing effect of putting other people at a 

disadvantage?---For sure but most of the dealers did a 

similar thing, you know. They all know the system and how 

it operates. 

I was just directing my thinking there though of course to 

other people in the line, in the queue - - -?---Yeah. 

- - - many of whom, on your evidence, could have been 

waiting for many hours?---That's correct, yeah, but the 

thing is they're probably only going to be there once and 

Abe and the others do it for - you know, on a business 

basis. 

I suppose if you have one person there for some hours it 

might, nonetheless, be rather important for them to be 

dealt with as quickly as anyone else?---Yeah, and a lot of 

the big businesses used to jump up and down and they were 

given a priority service. They were given preference for 

on-site inspections. They were - - - 

I suppose the on-site inspections was one formal way of DPI 

attempting to deal with the problem that you have 

identified, to get the inspections done for the dealers off 

site; that is to say, off the licensing site, which would 

assist them but also mean that the people who weren't 

dealers could get through more quickly?---A bit of a - - - 

Would that be the intent of it?---A bit of a catch 22 

because it took people away from the pits to go and do the 

jobs for the other people which basically meant they got 

preference and they were given, you know, an advantage over 

other people. 

Yes. Mr Burrows, I take it you understand one of the 

purposes of this Commission is to continuously improve the 

integrity of and to reduce the incidents of misconduct in 

the public sector. You understand that, do you?---Yes. 

On reflection do you consider that you acted with integrity 

in your dealings with Mr Raphael - I'm sorry, with 

Mr - - -?---Roufail, Mr Roufail? 

No. Yes, Mr Roufail. I'm talking, for example, about the 

lime-green vehicle?---Yeah. I'm very disappointed with 

myself. 

What do you think on reflection about the notion of giving 

preferential treatment in the way you have to him and 

others that you think might get things through more 

quickly?---Well, Commissioner, we shouldn't have to do 

that. We should have enough staff. We should have enough 

vehicle examination centres. We should have better - 


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proper training and procedures to avoid all this. I mean, 

the whole thing is a dog's breakfast and has been for many 

years. 

All right. If you were to be asked what lesson not only 

that you but other vehicle examiners, DPI or the public 

sector, could learn from the experience we have been 

talking about here today and in earlier public hearings, is 

there anything that you would like to suggest?---A 

multitude, Commissioner. There's just so much wrong with 

our system at the moment. It just really needs staffing 

for a start, and simple things like numberplates - you 

know, we go through the process of identifying all the 

vehicles and passing them and then they go and license 

them. I went to one business recently and I had to go and 

look at three vehicles and each vehicle had the wrong 

numberplates on. So it goes all the way down the line to 

the detailer in the car yard or the person, you know - 

they've screwed the wrong numberplates on the wrong 

vehicles. All three of them had the wrong numberplates on 

and it was only three vehicles licensed and they stuffed 

that up. 


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Who is "they" though there?---The dealer. 

Yes, all right. So I suppose it would be fair to say, 

wouldn't it, that that's one of the reasons we have 

official vehicle examiners to check - - -?---Yeah, but 

that's - - - 

- - - this, amongst other things isn't it?---That's past - 

that's down the line from us. We're the first stage of the 

process. This is - and we don't get to see the last stage 

where they screw the numberplates on. That's - - - 

I see?---You could screw the numberplates on anything and 

the way things are you've got a pretty good chance of not 

getting caught. 

Yes, but I was really directing my question to your role? 

---Okay, yeah. 

So if you had a vehicle come in for an inspection and it 

was one of those and it had the wrong numberplate, you 

would be expected to pick that up straight off, wouldn't 

you?---One bloke came in with a stolen numberplate on the 

front of his vehicle and a trailer numberplate on the back 

of it. I mean, there's some fair dinkum twits out there. 

Yes, but that's the sort of thing you expect the vehicle 

examiners to pick up - - -?---That's our - - - 

- - - basically, wouldn't you?---Yeah; yeah. Yeah; yeah. 

Yep. 

Yes, all right?---We just need to have more formal 

training. We need to have a lot more staff. I mean, even 

the facilities we have are just atrocious. All we've got 

to do - to use to check wheel bearings on a truck, we've 

got a jack and a tyre lever; that's it. The police have 

got more inspection facilities than what we have on the 

road. They've got a rolling road that they can check 

things. We've got nothing. Absolutely nothing. We're 

just - we're about 30 years behind the times. I was 

recently in the Northern Territory and they've got far 

better vehicle examination facilities than us, and they 

have annual examinations and - we wouldn't examine 

1 per cent of the fleet of vehicles on the road in Western 

Australia. We just haven't got enough staff. It's just 

crazy. We have just been under so much pressure to get the 

vehicles licensed that we - I'd say most of us take 

shortcuts every now and then because it's just - you're 

just under so much pressure to get the vehicles passed; 

and, you know, this poor woman that was in the queue for 

eight hours with a little baby, I fair dinkum felt for her. 

All right, thank you. Anything arising out of that, 

Mr Tooker? 


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TOOKER, MR: 

No, thank you, sir. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Karstaedt, is there anything else - 

any other area you think needs to be covered? 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Your Honour, may I just seek some 

clarification in relation to - - - 


you may. 

If you stand in front of the microphone 

KARSTAEDT, MR: I think this one is better. May I just 

seek some clarification in relation to the cluster on 

chart 6? 


Yes. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: May I just - - - 






look at? 

Would you like the cluster shown? 

Yes, please. If that could be done. 


Thank you. 

Which particular part would you like to 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Commissioner, could I just ask a question 

just before I look at the actual document? 


Yes. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: Mr Burrows, do you know which licensing 

centre Mr Abraham Roufail used in the four years or so that 

this diagram represents?---I'd say mainly Welshpool. 

Okay. Do you know in which area his premises were 

situated?---I think it's in Kewdale or Welshpool. Yeah, 

Star Street. 


Just a moment. Yes, Mr Tooker? 

TOOKER, MR: Chart 6 just deals with 2008, I'm afraid. 

Chart 5 is for the four and a half years. 


you, Mr Karstaedt? 

Yes. You wanted the four-year one did 

KARSTAEDT, MR: I'm sorry about that. I wanted chart 5, 

sir. 




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KARSTAEDT, MR: Chart 5. Sorry about that. So just to 

clarify, you understand that Mr Abraham Roufail used mainly 

the Welshpool licensing centre?---Yes. 


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Are you able to see chart 5? Perhaps you could answer this 

from your memory of seeing the enlargement previously, but 

do you know if there's anyone else on that chart that had 

worked at Welshpool as long as you had?---Possibly no-one. 

You had worked at Welshpool throughout that particular 

period?---Yes. 

Do you know of any other examiner who comes to mind who had 

worked at Welshpool for that entire period of time?---I 

haven't been able to see all the names. Probably - there's 

only a couple that have been there for the majority of the 

time. Most of the guys are new, they have only been there 

six, 12 months, so obviously they're not going to examine 

the same amount of vehicles over a four-year period that I 

had, because they haven't been there. 

Yes. Commissioner, may I just ask a question about the 

average number of vehicles that are passed and failed? 


Yes. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: I think we established from this that in 

respect of Mr Abe Roufail's vehicles for that period, you 

passed either all of them or all of them except for one. I 

think you were then asked the question of - I can't 

remember the precise words, but generally what is the fail 

rate?---Yes. 

And I think you said three or four out of a hundred?---Yes. 

Is that an average fail rate?---For all examiners or - - - 

For yourself?---For myself? Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. 

Okay. Did Mr Roufail's vehicles that he brought in 

represent the average type of vehicle that you examined? 

---No. 

How did his vehicles differ from the average?---Mainly, he 

was bringing them for car yards that had relatively new 

vehicles that were generally in very good condition. 

Your Honour - sorry, Commissioner, I just wanted to ask one 

final question about his previous experience. 


Yes, certainly. 

KARSTAEDT, MR: In terms of previous experience, I think 

you mentioned that you were in the army at some stage? 

---Yes. 

Prior to being a bus driver?---Yeah. I was in the army for 

20 years. 


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Did that involve any work similar to what you did at DPI? 

---I was - I started as an apprentice in the army and then 

worked my way up and I generally did vehicle examinations 

most of the way through the last 10 years in the army. 

So you were a vehicle examiner at that stage as well? 

---Yeah. We used to inspect the vehicles for repairs. 

Just lastly, in terms of that question of preferential 

treatment, while you perhaps were giving attention to 

Mr Abraham Roufail and other people were waiting in the 

queue, other examiners - would other examiners who hadn't 

been working as long as you had at Welshpool be giving 

attention to any specific customers while you were 

attending perhaps to Mr Roufail at that particular time? 

---I think yeah, possibly, because everyone sort of knows 

someone from a previous business. I mean, it's a small 

town, so you get to know - - - 

I suppose what referring to is you said that you were able 

to pick what you considered to be the more straightforward 

type or work where the customer would know what to do? 

---Yes. 

What was the position with vehicle examiners who hadn't 

worked as long as you? Were they able to assess potential 

customers in the same way from your observations? 

---Possibly not, because their experience - they wouldn't 

know one face from another. 


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Were other people waiting in queues being served generally 

while you were perhaps attending to Mr Roufail's vehicles? 

---Yeah; yeah. There'd be a constant stream of examiners 

coming and going and - yeah. 



arising, Mr Tooker? 

Thank you, Mr Karstaedt. Anything 

TOOKER, MR: 

No, thank you. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Thank you. 

Mr Burrows, you have heard what I have said to the previous 

witnesses. You may be excused for the time being once we 

finish today, but I won't discharge you from your summons 

at this stage. It may be that counsel assisting may have 

some further questions to be asked of you in public 

hearing, depending upon how this investigation progresses; 

and in any event it may also be the case that counsel 

representing individual witnesses may wish to ask you some 

questions and seek leave to do so. But if we do require 

you back we will certainly advise you of that and if that 

is the case then you will be required to attend here again, 

but in any event we will let you know whether you are or 

are not going to be required as soon as we are in a 

position to let you know. Do you understand that?---Is 

that in the next two days, Commissioner? 

Why, are you planning on going somewhere?---I was hoping to 

go on a holiday, yeah. 

How long would you be away?---Well, we're planning one in 

April for three weeks; that was all. 

Yes?---So it could be any time in the future? 

We have to see how this investigation progresses, of 

course?---Okay. 

We don't quite know where it's going to end up yet, but we 

will be mindful of that. We will keep in touch with you. 

We won't interfere with your holiday. Let me put it that 

way?---Thank you. 

All right? All right, you are now discharged from further 

attendance here at this stage in any event. 

(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Tooker, I take it there's not much 

point in going on further this afternoon with anyone? 

TOOKER, MR: 

No, there isn't, sir. 


3.59 

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morning? 

What time do we need to start in the 

TOOKER, MR: I would propose that we start at 9.30, 

Commissioner. 

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Is that convenient for whoever we 

are going to be calling? 

TOOKER, MR: Yes. I understand that Mr Lindsay is 

representing the next witness and will be available at 

9.30. 

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, very well. In that case we 

will adjourn then until 9.30 tomorrow morning. Thank you. 

AT 4.02 PM THE MATTER WAS ADJOURNED UNTIL 

THURSDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 2009 


Spark & Cannon

DPI Inquiry Public Hearing (Abraham ROUFAIL, William BURROWS)

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