Illicit trade in native wildlife - witnesses Ando, Plant, Dawson, Green

CORRUPTION AND CRIME COMMISSION
OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA
COMMISSIONER: Kevin James Hammond
Held at Perth on the 23rd day of November 2004
Counsel Assisting:
Stephen Hall SC
Counsel Attending:
John C. Hammond
Michael L. Tudori
Copyright in this document is reserved to the Crown in right
of the State of Western Australia. Reproduction of this
document (or part thereof, in any format) except with the
prior written consent of the Attorney General is prohibited.

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HEARING COMMENCED AT 10.01 AM
COMMISSIONER: Yes. I see Mr Paull. I see Mr Hammond. Mr
Tudori's not here at this stage.
MR HALL: Mr Tudori's not here at this stage. He tells me
that he's likely to return by 11 o'clock.
COMMISSIONER: All right.
MR HALL: And it shouldn't be necessary to recall Mr Green
until that time.
COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. So where are we today?
MR HALL: Mr Ando remains in the witness box, sir, and I will
continue to examine him.
COMMISSIONER: All right.
ANDREA GIOVANNI ANDO:
EXAMINED BY MR HALL SC (Continuing):
MR HALL: Now, Mr Ando, I'm in a position to play you the
video of Mr Green's testimony at the private hearing in regard
to what you told him on the occasion that you met at your
father's house. I wonder if that video could be played.
VIDEO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: That's what you did, wasn't it, Mr Ando?---No.
Well, do you recall that one of the calls that you made to Mr
Green that I played to you yesterday, you indicated that the
matter had been sorted. Do you recall that?---Yes.
I suggest to you that you had sorted the matter by taking the
return fax of the registration details from CALM and ensuring
that no one saw them?---I can assure you that I have not seen
the return fax. I remember doing the fax but I have not seen
the return fax.
So the return fax was never on your desk?---I do not recall it
being on my desk.
You've never suggested to anybody that perhaps it was removed
by accident?---No.
That's not a story that you've considered telling?---No.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 121
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MR HALL: Remember yesterday I asked you about your private
hearing transcript, and you told the Commissioner yesterday
that the first time you knew what the registration details
were - that is, who the owner of the car was - was when you
were shown the response at your private hearing?---That's
correct.
Well, at your private hearing - this is at page 123 - you were
asked this question. This is before you were shown the return
facsimile; understand that?---Yes.
You were asked:
"Have you ever conducted a registration check on a vehicle
registered to a Philip Green?---Not that I - - well,
yes. Yes."
When I asked you about that yesterday you said you'd done
registration checks on him before; is that right?---I was
working with the special investigations unit for 2 years - -
Yes?--- - - and Phil Green was a person of interest.
Yes?---So there would have been 100 registration checks that
we did conduct during that investigation.
On Phil Green?---Yes.
And it was one of those you were referring to when you were
giving your evidence, was it?---That's correct.
Well, let me take you on then in your evidence, because it
goes on in this way. Question:
"And can you recall when you conducted this check?---I can't
remember.
"Now, you've indicated that you think you've conducted a
registration check for a vehicle registered to a
Philip Green. Do you recall whether you took any
action in relation to that check?---No.
"You - - ?---Didn't take any.
"You sent the information off in the usual way to the West
Australian police?---Our current policy in our office
is that if we get anonymous information that take it
as a grain of salt. So when I did that check I took
it as a grain of salt. There were no witnesses coming
forward. I had no witnesses coming forward.
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"So in relation to the check for Green you had anonymous
information; is that correct?---I had anonymous
information of a rego of a person."
It's quite clear that you were talking about the call I played
to you yesterday?---I think there's - - there's two stories
mixed up in that - - -
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WITNESS: - - - two stories mixed up in that - - that same
comment, if you look at it properly.
MR HALL: Really?---I was asked if I'd done a check on Mr
Green.
Yes?---And I agreed to that because we investigated Mr Green a
couple of years ago. And then I - - I would have gone on - -
asked another question and went on about receiving faxes
because I was - - got asked what the policy in relation to BCI
checks is.
Well, I don't think so, Mr Ando. This is your explanation,
you see, that you're giving as to why you haven't followed up,
why you didn't take any action, and you say, "Well, I didn't
take any action because it was an anonymous call and I took it
with a grain of salt." It's quite clear you're talking about
the call I played yesterday, isn't it?---No. I don't - -
that's - - that's what I mean. I investigated Mr Green and a
number of other aviculturists over 2 years. I conducted an
operation. I headed an operation and in that operation we
knocked Mr Green off and he - - he lost $40,00 worth of birds.
Yes. You told us that yesterday; but how many times have you
received anonymous information about Mr Green?---Well, that
was just during that operation. No other time. I didn't know
that was Mr Green until I saw the fax at the - - at the
hearing.
Look, Mr Ando, I put it to you it's quite clear from this
transcript that you were talking about the anonymous
information you received in September this year?---But how
could that be if I didn't know who - - who the person was?
But you did, didn't you, Mr Ando?---I did at the hearing.
You did know. You did receive the registration check back?---
No. I didn't.
So, are you saying that you had no idea, no inkling at all,
that the registration number you were given in that call was
Mr Green's until you were shown it here?---That's correct.
It never occurred to you that that might be Mr Green's?---No.
Never occurred to you that someone might have been testing
your integrity?---No.
Well, can I play you 198, please.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 124
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MR HALL: Right. That's you speaking to your wife, isn't
it?---That's correct.
This is the 16th of September. This is some several days
before the private hearing occurs?---This was during a time -
-
Now, wait until I ask you a question. This is some days
before the private hearing occurs and you have speculated that
someone has set you up with a rego check at a time when you
say you have no inkling that this rego check has got anything
to do with Mr Green. Why is that?---I had a number of people
come into my office saying they were going to do a search
warrant on my office and in my house. They looked through all
my paperwork, they looked for registrations, they looked for
BCI checks. I got two young kids at home. My wife is
stressing at home. That's 3 hours or couple of hours after
they did all that and my wife's asking me questions and I
don't know what the hell was going on. They want to go
through my house and the last thing I wanted was my wife to be
stressed, about 13 people on a summons to go through my own
home, with a 6 month old kid and a 3 year old kid.
Mr Ando - -?---Now, is that fair?
- - do you intend to answer my question?---That's - - that's
the answer.
No. It's not. I'm asking you why you thought you had been
set up in regard to this rego check if you had no inkling that
the registration check related to Mr Green?---I don't know.
You see, I put it to you that why you thought you'd been set
up is you knew the registration check related to Mr Green.
You knew you'd released those details and that's why you felt
you were susceptible, you were vulnerable?---I can tell you
why. Because the only thing the officers looked for in my - -
and I gave them everything I had, was BCI checks and rego
checks.
And they didn't find this BCI check, did they?---I don't know.
Well, I can tell you that the BCI check that is in our
possession came from BCI. The one that was sent to CALM was
not located - - -
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MR HALL: - - - was not located?---Well, I don't know where
that is.
Well, you know you removed it, didn't you?---I did not remove
it.
Why were you saying to your wife, "It could of got caught up
in paperwork. I don't know where it is"? You were trying out
stories you might give, weren't you?---No.
Well, why say, "I didn't take the rego off my desk" if the
truth was you'd never received it back at all?---I - - I
recall advising other officers that I had not received that
fax after a few days.
Well, why say that, "I didn't take it off my desk", if you'd
never got it back?---I don't know what - - I don't even know
what that's about.
Well, they're your words; surely you can help?---I do not
recall. I was under immense stress on that day. I don't know
what that means.
What you were doing here clearly was trying out, advancing
possible explanations that you might give for conduct that you
knew was improper?---You're trying to put words in my mouth.
Like, it's a bit unfair to do that.
Well, do you disagree with that, do you?---I do disagree.
Can you give me some other plausible explanation for this
conversation?---Well, I wanted to tell my wife that I have - -
a summons on my home and at work, that the Crime Corruption
Commission were there and they were looking for regos. That's
it. I don't know what - - what it was about.
"With that rego check. They would of set me up with that - -
"?---Why - - why would my wife know about any rego checks
anyway? I do hundreds - - there are probably a thousand rego
checks. If you go through BCI over seven years - -
Which rego check were you talking about?---I don't know.
Well, you were only talking about one: "They would have set
me up with that rego check"?---I do not know. I don't know.
That's the best you can do, is it?---Yes.
All right. Now, I asked you yesterday, when you first gave
evidence, about receiving a telephone call from Mr Plant; do
you recall that? On the morning of - - ?---Yes.
- - the 16th?---Yes.
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MR HALL: And he said he wanted to get through some
information to Mr Dawson. You rang Mr Dawson?---Yes, I did.
And he asked you to tell Mr Mell and you told Mr Mell?---Yes,
I did.
And you told me yesterday that at around that time, you
believe you also called Mr Green?---That's correct.
And that was in relation to your understanding that Mr Green
was going to the eastern states and would see your mutual
friend Charlie?---Well, not a mutual friend, but a friend - -
a person that I know.
Would see Charlie?---Yes.
And that's Charlie Sultana?---That's correct.
Who is also - - he has a business, doesn't he, selling birds,
amongst other animals?---Yes.
What have your dealings been with him?---No dealings. I've
only met him through Phil and he's come around my place. He's
met my family, my kids, my mum and dad. I met at Phil's
party.
Right. Have you ever been involved in any way at all in
sending birds to him?---Not me personally, no.
Not you personally?---No.
When you say not you personally, I mean, have you - - ?---
Well, I've never sent birds - -
- - involved - - do you know of birds being sent to him by
anyone related to you or who you are a friend of?---Well, when
we're doing investigations, a number of aviculturalists in
Western Australia sent birds to Charlie Sultana because he's
one of the biggest dealerships in - -
Yes?--- - - in the eastern states.
Have you ever been asked to provide birds to be sent to Mr
Sultana?---No.
If you did, you would certainly report that to your superiors,
I assume?---Most probably. Depends - - I don't know - - yeah,
probably - - I don't know. I do not know.
Right. What was the urgency about ringing Mr Green about
Charlie on this occasion?---Well, I knew he was going over for
a party of some sort so I just wanted to - - them to say hello
to Charlie for me.
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MR HALL: All right. What made you think he was going over
there for a party?---Because I'd talked to Mr Green on
numerous occasions prior and he said, yeah, he had a do over
there, at Charlie's place.
Right. What's that got to do with you?---Well, I say hello to
many people that Mr Green associates - - associates with, and
I just thought I'd say gidday. It's got a lot to do with me,
when I find him to be a fairly nice person.
Did you not think that there was some risk in you calling the
person who you had just been told was to be searched?---No,
because I didn't tell him anything.
COMMISSIONER: Before you go on, Mr Hall, were you meaning to
tender 198?
MR HALL: Yes. Thank you, sir.
COMMISSIONER: KO19.
MR HALL: Thank you, Commissioner.
EXHIBIT KO19 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape of telephone conversation
Barcode 198
COMMISSIONER: Can I take this opportunity, Mr Ando, simply to
say that the oath you took yesterday still applies and that it
is important that you tell the truth when questioned in this
Commission.
(TO MR HALL): Go on, Mr Hall.
MR HALL: Thank you, sir.
(TO WITNESS): All right. Well, I'd like to ask you the
question again that I asked you yesterday, Mr Ando. Is it not
the case that you gave a coded warning to Mr Green regarding
the information you had received from Mr Plant?---There is no
coded warning. I - - I don't understand what you're talking
about. I rang Mr Green because I got the phone call.
Obviously, being a friend, I might have felt a bit, but I - -
there was no code words and there was no information passed on
to Mr Green.
You rang Mr Green within minutes of - - -
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MR HALL: - - - Mr Green within minutes of receiving this
information from Mr Plant?---I don't - - I don't remember when
I did it. I just made sure - -
Well, perhaps I can remind you?---I made sure I told Mr
Dawson, who is the investigator, and I was a bit concerned as
why Customs had dealt with me when I got told that I had no -
- had no dealings with them at all any more, because I'd been
taken out of the special investigations unit. I had a
supervisor in the office that could have been called, so I
made sure that the right people knew.
Well, having received this information and speaking to Mr
Dawson and Mr Mell, you had ample opportunity to tell them
that Phil Green was a friend of yours - this person who you
knew was about to be searched?---I didn't want to say anything
about that.
You didn't want to, no?---Because he was a friend of mine 14
years ago, and I keep on going back to it, that I'd been - -
And he was still a friend of yours?---Yes.
Can we hear 199, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: "Today" you emphasise. Why "today"?---I don't know.
When's Charlie Sultana's birthday?---Well, when he was going
over - - I seriously don't - - I just thought it was around
this time of year.
Well, do you know when Charlie Sultana's birthday is?---No.
But I just knew that - -
Would it surprise you to know it's in February?---Yes.
Why were you emphasising the word "today"?---I don't know.
Well, I suggest to you you were emphasising it because what
you were trying to convey to Mr Green was that he was about to
be the subject of enforcement action?---But I don't understand
how someone can think that's going to be something in relation
to enforcement action. I knew he was going over for a party
at Charlie's place, and I just made sure that he wished him a
happy birthday, because I probably wouldn't speak to him
again.
Well, that should be enough then, shouldn't it, leaving a
message?---Well, I wanted to speak to him face to face.
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MR HALL: All right. But there's no need to do more than
that, is there?---Well, he could have come and visited me or
whatever.
Yes?---I can recall ringing him again. I wanted to speak to
him.
Right. Well, how many times did you call him?---Well, I
eventually got him on the phone.
Well, how many times did you call him?---Twice. I called him
on a mobile and couldn't get him, so then I called him at
home.
All right. This was at 8.23. A minute later - - can we
listen to 200, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: That was very faint, but you accept that that was
you leaving a message on Anne Gracie's mobile telephone?---
That's the same message, yes.
Same message, yes. A minute later. What was the urgency?---I
was trying to get a hold of him to speak to him.
Well, what was the urgency about wishing Charlie a - - ?---
Because - -
- - "happy birthday today"?---Because I knew he was going to
be leaving soon. That's what he had told me the week before.
Yes. Why was there any necessity to make several calls about
this?---Because I wanted to speak to him. Because not
everyone answers their messagebank.
And you did get through to him eventually, didn't you?---Yes.
What did you say to him then?---I just - - I don't know. I
probably said - - I can't recall. I'm sure I told him to wish
Charlie a happy birthday.
Mm hm. Anything else?---Not that I can recall.
So that was the full content of the message that you wanted to
convey to him; just to wish Charlie happy birthday?---Well,
he said to me he's in the middle of something, and that was
it. When someone sort of cuts you short, that's the end of
the conversation then, isn't it?
Well, did you think that what might have been occupying him
was in fact the search that you had received advice of?---
Well, I don't know.
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MR HALL: Let's listen to 180.
COMMISSIONER: 180?
MR HALL: 180.
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AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: That's you and Mr Green speaking?---Yes.
All right. You gave a rather knowing laugh after he said he
was in the midst of having a good day actually. What did you
think he meant by that?---Well, it sounded like - - it sounded
like he was in the middle of something because there was a lot
of noise in the background and he - - the way he spoke there
just sounded like he was cutting me off and he was busy. And
I could - - well, yeah, I can imagine obviously there's
something - - something going on but I didn't know exactly
what except for the information that I received from Malcolm
Plant.
You must have - - must have at least suspected that the search
was, in fact, going on at that time?---Possibly. Yes.
Well, this giving Charlie a happy birthday was simply code,
wasn't it, to warn him that he was to be searched?---No. We -
- there's no codes.
You were very insistent about him passing on a message from
you to give Charlie a happy birthday - three telephone calls -
even though Charlie's birthday was not for several months. Is
that what you're telling us?---He - - he's a truck driver and
he's hard to get a hold of and I knew he was going over there
for a do so I just made sure he - - and that's what I thought
it was for. He said he was having a do at Charlie's place.
I see.
(TO COMMISSIONER): Commissioner, can I tender 199 and 200?
COMMISSIONER: Yes. That's KO20 and KO21.
EXHIBIT KO20 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
EXHIBIT KO21 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
MR HALL: And 180 is already KO7.
COMMISSIONER: K07. Thank you.
MR HALL: Did you tell any of your superior officers that you
had had communication with Mr Green on this day?---No.
After?---No.
Why not?---Because I - - I thought it was irrelevant. When I
got told by Customs that they were going to do a search on his
place within half an hour, you know, that - - that's got
nothing - - that's why I tried to keep my distance from it. I
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got taken out of the special investigations unit. I wanted no
more to do with it. I was under extreme stress. I had got
threats from people and all I got from my office was, "You
need to deal with a counsellor", which was great, and I got a
lot of respect for that but I kept my distance from it. I had
my problems with Rick Dawson. We used to be great friends.
We didn't see eye to eye for a while and there was - - so I
just thought I'll keep clear from those situations. And
that's why I was put on general duties. I didn't need any
more stress in relation to any more of those sort of
investigations. That's why I pulled out of it.
MR HALL: Did you continue to maintain a relationship - - a
friendly relationship with Phil Green after this time?---Yes.
Did you meet with him following the execution of this search
warrant?---I - -
On or about the 21st of September?---We probably met a couple
of times.
Did you speak to him about being summonsed by this Commission
to give evidence at the private hearing?---No, because I got
told I'm not allowed to talk about the summons.
Where did you meet him?---I don't remember.
Yes.
(TO COMMISSIONER): Commissioner, at this time I would ask
that Mr Ando be stood down again. I wish to call some other
witnesses.
COMMISSIONER: If you'd please sit down - - stand down to the
back for the moment, Mr Ando.
WITNESS WITHDREW
MR HALL: Can I call Mr Malcolm Plant.
MALCOLM ROSS PLANT affirmed:
COMMISSIONER: Right. Thank you. Please sit down, Mr Plant.
EXAMINED BY MR HALL SC:
MR HALL: Now, Mr Plant, as we've heard in other evidence, you
are a Customs officer, I think?---That is correct. Yes.
And what's your position within Customs?---I'm an
investigation officer.
How long have you worked in that area in the Customs Service?-
--Approximately 10½ years.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 133
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MR HALL: Now, does your job bring you into contact with the
Department of Conservation and Land Management?---It does.
Do Customs on occasion conduct joint - - -
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MR HALL: - - - on occasion conduct joint investigations with
CALM?---We do, yes.
And I assume that relates to matters involving wildlife?---
That's correct, yes.
Does Customs have some responsibility in respect to
investigating illegal importations and exportations of flora
and fauna?---Yes. We are designated inspectors under the
Environmental Protection Biodiversity Conservation Act and we
operate with an MOU with the Department of Environment &
Heritage which administers that Act and we conduct
investigations on their behalf and monitor and police the
border in relation to that Act.
Can you give some idea of how many joint wildlife
investigations you've been involved in?---Approximately about
27.
And can you assess the success of joint wildlife
investigations with CALM?---On the whole, very successful.
Have you ever had cause to suspect that information from joint
wildlife investigations have been compromised?---I have, yes.
Are you able to give us some examples of such compromises
occurring?---I can. In August 2000 I was - - I'd received
information from CALM in relation to a - - a person who had
some macaws on his National Exotic Bird Register, which was a
requirement under an old scheme which the predecessor for DEH
used to run, which was the Department of Environment which was
an exotic register for imported birds and progeny. And the
information was that this person was falsifying his birds had
died and he was keeping - - he hadn't notified CALM, which was
administrating that on behalf of DEH, that the birds had died
and he was offering the places on his register for payment
which was an offence under the old Wildlife Protection Act
which was the Act which was in force prior to the EPBC Act
which carried a two-year sentence. After liaising with
Department of Environment in - - sorry, Environment Australia
which was the predecessor, the previous name of Environment &
Heritage in Canberra and in relation to obtaining warrants on
that person we planned to actually execute warrants - - I
swore - - I drafted warrants and planned to conduct a full
investigation into the matter, but four days prior to the
actual execution of those warrants, the suspect attended CALM
offices and volunteered the information that his birds had
died and he wished to amend his register.
Now, do you have another example of such a compromise?---Yes.
In October 2002, I was conducting an investigation into - -
23.11.04 M.R. PLANT XN 135
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with CALM as a joint operation in relation to the activities
of a suspect trafficker in wildlife who was providing eggs to
couriers and as part of that operation, CALM and Customs - -
we provided covert cameras in remote areas, with CALM, in
which to monitor the possible poaching on targeted nesting
areas. The idea was that once we could identify that those
nesting sites were being poached, we could then - - would give
us a better time-frame in relation to when the courier was due
to come over. We continued the monitoring, both Customs and
CALM shared the viewing of tapes and the changing of tapes,
etcetera, and after we were advised that the eggs - - that had
actually hatched and were now chicks, it became a domestic
issue because the MO for us is that basically they've got to
be eggs, so therefore the risk - - -
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WITNESS: - - - so therefore the risk for international
involvement was reduced and therefore we decided to pull the
cameras out. Approximately a week to 2 weeks after those
cameras were pulled out I was advised by CALM that the nests
which we had cameras in had been robbed.
MR HALL: Robbed of the chicks?---Yes.
All right. So in both of those cases you, I take it, believe
that the operations were compromised by some leak of
information?---I do, yes.
In respect of information, do I take it that it's necessary in
order to be effective in regulating this sort of illegal
activity, particularly if you're in a joint operation, to be
able to trust those with whom you're working?---Very much so.
And there needs to be able to be, to the extent necessary, a
free exchange of information between the agencies?---Where
it's legally possible, yes.
Have these past compromises had any effect upon the view of
Customs as to what information it can properly pass - - safely
pass to CALM?---Yes, it has, but it was more a case of who we
pass it to.
Yes?---I believe that what we did was, we tightened our
dissemination to a very select few, and with the understanding
that it would not go any further and that we could control the
operation better that way.
Right. Now, we've heard that there was a search on Mr Philip
Green's premises on the 16th of September 2004. Were you
involved in that search?---I was.
And why was the Customs Service involved?---Australian Customs
Service was conducting an investigation into an organisation
mainly based in the eastern states, but which we believed the
person whose residence we executed warrants on was involved,
and it was in relation to the importation of exotic eggs into
Australia and the collection for - - of eggs for export, both
in contravention of the EPBC Act. And also we believed there
may be some exotics already on - - illegally imported exotics
on the premises.
This was a nation-wide operation?---It was, yes.
And I think there were a number of search warrants also
executed in the eastern states?---That's correct.
Now, on the morning of the 16th of September did you make a
telephone call to Mr Ando?---I did.
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MR HALL: Where were you when you made that telephone call?---
I was at premises of Mr Green's.
Executing the warrant?---Assisting the execution of the
warrant. It was a CALM warrant.
It was a CALM warrant?---Yes.
Okay. Now, what did you say to Mr Ando?---Words to the effect
that I was trying to get in contact with Officer Dawson but
was unable to contact him, and asked him if he could pass on a
message to him.
And the message was - ?---That we were investigating - - that
we were doing an operation in New South Wales, and - - words
to the effect that we were doing an operation in New South
Wales and we believed that Mr Green was involved and, as a
result of that we would be executing a warrant later on that -
- on his premises.
All right. Well, in fact you were executing the warrant at
that time?---Yes.
And you were aware that this was in fact a way of testing Mr
Ando's integrity?---That is correct, yeah.
Now, in fact, I think - - was Mr Dawson also with you at the
time of the execution of the warrant?---He was, yes.
Are you able to tell me whether you observed that Mr Dawson
received a telephone call whilst you were doing the warrant?--
-Yes. He did receive a phone call.
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MR HALL: What about Mr Green? Did he receive any telephone
calls?---I wasn't in a position to see that.
All right. Now, when you spoke to Mr Ando regarding this
intention to execute a warrant on Mr Green, did he in any way
indicate to you that Mr Green was a personal friend of his?---
No, he did not.
Now, were you aware that Mr Ando had previously been a member
of the special investigation unit at CALM?---Yes.
Did you at any stage know that he had a personal friendship
with Mr Green?---No.
Has Mr Green long been a person of interest to both Customs
and CALM?---He's definitely been an interest to Customs and
from information I've received from CALM, yes, I understand of
great interest to them as well.
And now, I think you've been present during Mr Ando giving his
evidence, have you?---Yes.
You've heard him say that in relation to this relationship he
has with Mr Green, he considers it to be a matter - - a
private matter and that he keeps his work separate from that.
Can you tell me, in relation to Customs and the conduct of
joint operations, if you knew that someone - and bearing in
mind Mr Ando has previously been involved in investigations
relating to Mr Green - if you knew that someone in such a
position had a friendly relationship with a person who was
under investigation, would you consider that to be a risk in
relation to the investigation?---Definitely.
Is it something that you would expect to - - if it was a
Customs officer involved, that he would report it to you?---
Yes.
In such a circumstance, would you take some steps to limit the
amount of information available to such a person?---Yes, I
would.
Both, I take it, in the interests of the investigation and in
their own interests?---That's right. It's fair to them.
Now, can you tell me, Mr Plant, in relation to the Customs
Service, do Customs conduct security vetting or security
clearances on its officers?---Yes, we do.
To what level are Customs officers security cleared?---The
general area of Customs, most officers are to the protected
level. Officers in the investigation section and intelligence
section are to the highly protected level.
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MR HALL: And that security clearance, does that involve, to
your knowledge, some background checking of the person?---Yes.
It's passed to the AFP to conduct those inquiries.
All right. If CALM were to implement such a system in
relation to its investigative officers, would that provide a
measure of comfort for Customs in passing information and
conducting joint operations?---I believe it would make it
easier, yes.
I think there may well be some information that you are
prohibited from passing to CALM because of its security
status, is that right?---That is correct, yes.
You may have been present when I asked Mr Mell some questions
about the database that CALM has, certain elements of which
have got audit tracking on, the licensing database doesn't;
does Customs utilise audit tracking?---Yes, we do.
Do you use that on all your databases?---Yes, we do. I
understand from all the Customs systems, we have our own audit
trail and also within our shared databases. If it's police
online systems, only authorised persons are able to access
that and you must have a reason to access that system and it
is, again, this is an audit capacity on those systems to
actually who does it and our joint - - our other systems where
we jointly have intelligence systems with other agencies,
again, there are audit capacities within each of those
systems.
I asked Mr Cresswell some questions about - - -
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MR HALL: - - - Mr Cresswell some questions about bird
smuggling and the level of sophistication. Is it your
experience in the 10½ years or so that you've worked in the
area that bird smuggling has become more sophisticated?---Yes.
You mentioned also that there was - - at least in the matter
that you were investigating Mr Green for, there was an
exchange. There was both exotics being imported as well as
Australian wildlife being exported. Does the importation also
carry significant risks?---The importation has huge risks in
relation to quarantine risks it imposes. Apart from - - we
were talking about the avian flu situation. You have
varieties of Newcastle's disease, which can decimate aviaries
and then obviously we're looking at our own native varieties
as well as was previously stated the poultry industry.
Now, one of the examples that you gave of a previous suspected
compromise was where the register at CALM was not correct and
then the person concerned came in and sought that it be
amended?---Mm.
In respect of, for example, illegally imported birds, do you
rely upon the accuracy of the State licensing system in order
to determine whether birds are, in fact, illegally imported or
legitimate?---Yes.
If there are deficiencies in that system would that undermine
your imperatives in respect of investigating such matters?---
It would. Yes.
Yes. Thank you, Mr Plant. That's all the questions I have.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond.
MR HAMMOND: I don't have any questions, Mr Commissioner.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION
COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you.
(TO MR HALL): Mr Plant may now be excused?
MR HALL: Yes. He can.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Plant, thank you for your evidence. You're
free to go, if you wish.
WITNESS WITHDREW
MR HALL: Yes. I call Rick Dawson.
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RICKY DAVID DAWSON sworn:
COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Please sit down, Mr Dawson?---Thank
you.
Mr Hall.
EXAMINED BY MR HALL SC:
MR HALL: Mr Dawson, you're a wildlife officer with the
Department of Conservation and Land Management?---Yeah.
That's correct.
How long have you been employed in that department?---About 7½
years.
Do you have any investigative experience prior to that time?--
-Yeah. I did 21 years in the Navy as an investigator.
Training with the New South Wales Police, West Australian
Police, AFP, Customs.
Now, your present position is what?---It's been re-titled.
I'm now the Senior Investigator of the Special Compliance
Operation Unit, which used to be a special investigations
unit, formerly known as a special investigator.
Right; but your job duties haven't changed, I take it?---No.
Not at all. Not at all.
Now, we've just heard from Mr Plant. Can you confirm that on
occasions you conduct joint investigations with the Customs
Service in respect of wildlife trafficking?---Yeah.
Absolutely.
Is that what the Special Investigations Unit, or whatever it
may now be called, focuses on? The more complex,
sophisticated - -?---Yeah. Absolutely. But, I mean, we do a
wide range of things. We've been tasked by a lot of things by
our executive director to look into. The more complex, more
serious investigations. And part of our role is to liaise
with other State agencies and deal with the more serious
offences within CALM.
Now, in talking about those more serious offences, is it known
to you that some of the Australian fauna that is either taken
illegally from the wild or exported is of very significant
value overseas?---Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, my research with
Traffic Oceania and information from Customs and other
agencies suggests that our wildlife is extremely valuable
overseas.
Are there particular species of birds that are at risk in this
regard?---Most of the parrots are - - -
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WITNESS: - - - of the parrots are, in varying degree of.
There's no doubt that our black cockatoos are worth a lot more
overseas. Gang-gangs, some of the eastern states' black
cockatoos. Galahs and corellas have value overseas. Our
parrots are quite unique, so yes; they are valuable.
MR HALL: Now, can you tell me that in the conduct of your
work have you had any suspicions that CALM operations have
been compromised?---We - - I had received some information
from a couple of sources that suggested that that may be the
case. What we were doing at the time was, we - - you get that
all the time. People - - the best type of defence for them is
offence, and you often get - - they try to tarnish. So what
we do when we'd received the information, we were actually
collating it and validating it and trying to make a decision
as to where we would be sending that, but yeah; we have.
We heard Mr Mell say yesterday that one source of information
was tapes of conversations between Mr Mancini and Mr Green;
is that correct?---That's correct.
Now, did these issues relate to Mr Ando?---We had listened to
some - - I'd received information and, as a result of that,
what we try to do is validate it, so we were fairly convinced
that Mr Green and Mancini were aware of us listening to him,
so when we listened to the tapes we were quite cautious as to
what we believed, but they were talking in code or in - - in
not so much specifics. We received some information which
suggested that - - Mr Green would say, "My mate" or "Your
mate" or "Our mate" or "The mate over there" or "Your mate up
there."
So you had no name at that stage?---Not at all. But what we
did do is, if you actually listen to this - - spend a fair bit
of time and listen to the tapes you could actually pick up a
bit of a sequence. And I didn't listen to the actual tapes
personally until after they were vetted by Nick Phillips, my
partner, who spent a lot of time doing so. And when you put
them in sequence you could actually see that there was contact
between Phil Green and "My mate's mum" or "dad". So what we
did was we then conducted CCR checks and established that Phil
Green had contacted the Ando residence, or Ando senior
residence. As a result of that we were then trying to
establish what that meant.
Right. Now, I take it that your powers of investigation are
really quite limited. You are an investigator, generally
speaking, who focuses on wildlife offences?---Yeah. I've made
it very clear to my superiors that my job is to investigate
wildlife and not to investigate my fellow officers. I passed
the information as I've seen it's my duty to do so, and that's
as far as it's gone. I mean, there seems to be a perception
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that I've been out to get Mr Ando. That couldn't be further
from the truth.
MR HALL: Now, in fact, I think it was the case that it was
the CCC that approached CALM rather than the other way round?-
--That's quite - - quite ironically, we were in the process
that morning of working out what we should do with the
information when we were requested to attend the CCC that
afternoon. There was a bit of banter in the office that maybe
we were being listened to in the office. It was quite - -
quite a surprise to us, and very disappointing, I must add.
Disappointing that - - ?---Oh, well, I mean, I - - me and
Andrew, as he said, were good friends. I trusted him
implicitly. I mean, during his tough times I tried to support
him.
Can you tell me whether the allegations that have been made
during the course of this hearing about Mr Ando - and you're
aware that he's been suspended now for some period of time - -
?---Sure.
- - has that had an impact upon morale within CALM?---There's
no doubt within the office that collectively the office is
concerned about their private and professional integrities
being compromised. For me, as I said, you know, I - - I
actually like the guy. I mean, he's got a great family. I've
had him at my house. It's - - it's a bit surreal. It's a bit
hard to believe.
Well, whilst these allegations were pending, did this have an
impact upon the way in which you could conduct investigations?
The way you dealt with information?---I came from the navy
where I had a very high-security clearance, and I come from an
area where you always operated on the need to know, and from
the day I joined the department, in consultation with Dave
Mell, we actually tried to start - - adopt a need to know
principle, so we started to do that. But as a result of
information that started to filter through about Andrew, then
I felt it was important that we then really were quite
cautious about what we did. And in fact, we went to measures
where we - - where we would pretend that we were going
somewhere else than we where we were going. We'd pretend to
work on other jobs. Very cautious about leaving stuff lying
around. But in fairness, that's something that we've probably
adopted for some time anyway.
All right?---Even Andrew's been involved in that where he
worked for me.
Yes. I was coming to that. He in fact worked in the area of
wildlife investigations with you for a - - ?---Yeah. It was
about 18 months. It wasn't 2 years.
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MR HALL: Whilst he was working with you I take it he had
access to the intelligence database?---Limited. It's quite a
hard system to operate. Andrew had some access to some
information, sure.
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MR HALL: Now, was Mr Green, Mr Phil Green, a person of
interest at that time?---Mr Phil Green's been a person of
interest for a few years now. Andrew's listened to the tapes.
In the early days, Andrew was tasked with the responsibility
with Customs to jointly listen to the tapes and was quite
clear in them days, when they had no idea of us listening to
them, they were providing unsolicited information about their
activities, and Andrew was very aware of them activities. In
fact, he reported them to me.
Was Mr Green in fact prosecuted?---Yes, he was.
Now - - ?---And as Andrew said, he did head up that - - that
was the first job he had when he first come and joined, yeah.
Did he tell you either at that time or at any subsequent time
that he had a friendly relationship with Mr Green?---It's one
thing I find very surprising. I had no idea that he had any
relationship with him at all. I still find it hard to believe
that he had a relationship with him at that time when we
conducted the investigation. We took $32,000 worth of birds
off Mr Green. He wasn't very happy.
No, I can imagine. Now, I take it that Mr Ando was involved
in other investigations as well?---Yeah, many. I mean, he's a
wildlife investigator, you know? He's been - - he's been very
competent in years gone by, you know, had good results. Still
up to the last few days. I mean, I saw him deal with a lot of
section 79 notices, which is illegal import of birds and he
actually dealt with them.
Now, I don't want to get too much into the detail, but there
are certain forms that have to be lodged by those who both
keep birds and then intend to send them outside of Western
Australia?---Yes, that's correct.
Now, Mr Mell told us about different types of licence that can
be - - ?---Yes.
- - kept, and there are returns that have to be made,
particularly by dealers?---Yes.
And those returns are intended to enable the Department of
Conservation & Land Management, if it needs to do so, to check
the providence of a bird, to determine where it's come from?--
-Yes, that's the - - that's the aim of it.
Yes. In the course of your career as an investigator with
CALM, have you come across any allegations that these records
are falsified on occasion to legitimise wild-caught birds?---
In consultation with Andrew, and this is some of the issues
where he - - he reckons we - - I tried to steal his thunder,
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and as far as I'm concerned, that's - - that's not the case,
but we - - we worked on information and I've got a line that I
use quite consistently. It's all about the paperwork. And
that's what it's about. If you can actually legitimise birds,
then their value becomes, you know, far more. So yes, there -
- I mean, there has been information or suggestion over the
time of birds moving illegally. You hear snippets from the
eastern states as well as you do here about ways and means
that they try to legitimise birds.
MR HALL: Now, I want to ask you about some other persons of
interest. Mr Richard Polglase, is he a person of interest for
CALM?---Yeah. He's - - he has a large collection. He's moved
it east, he's moved it west, he's - - he's - - there's been
information that's come through on numerous occasions about
his potential activities. He - - his movements and the way
he's done it and the information has definitely made him a
point of interest - - sorry, I beg your pardon, a person of
interest. There's probably no one in our office that would
not disagree with that.
And has he been a person of interest for some years?---Yes.
Was he a person of interest at the time that Mr Ando was in
the special investigations unit?---Probably from about then,
but in the early days in fact, I had used Mr Polglase to
assist us in the housing of birds that we'd seized and had
considered him at the time to be someone we could probably
trust, but that changed as time went on.
You may have been present when Mr Ando gave evidence that on
an occasion he collected some yellow-tailed black cockatoos
from Mr Polglase that were for his father. Were you aware
that Mr Ando had ever had any dealings with Mr Polglase?---No.
No. I conducted an inspection of Mr Polglase's aviaries a
couple of weeks ago and he never mentioned it to me either.
Now, Mr Ando received an anonymous report in early September
of activity in the Moora area. Were you present when that
tape was played?---Yes.
And I think you may have also seen the video, did you?---Yes.
As an experienced wildlife officer, do you accept that that
tape and video-tape appears to indicate suspect behaviour?---
Oh, absolutely.
Would you investigate it?---Yeah. Absolutely.
Is there some procedure in place for how duty officers are to
treat anonymous reports of alleged illegal conduct?---Andrew
said before that we receive a lot, and some of them you need
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to validate. I mean, people can be malicious and provide
information that, you know, may not be true. So that's why we
go through a bit of a process, so if you receive that
information, then you would go and conduct BCI checks with
them. I mean, if that information had been current, I would
have contacted the local police or the Moora wildlife officers
and seen if they could attend the area - - -
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WITNESS: - - - if they could attend the area. I believe it
was some days later, from the - - is that the case?
MR HALL: Yes?---Yeah. Okay. So, we - - you know, we would
have definitely conducted a formal investigation into that and
if we'd found out that had been Phil Green I know that he's a
point of interest - - sorry, a person of interest for Customs
and I would have passed that information on as well.
Now, you've mentioned getting information from BCI. There is
a procedure whereby that's done. A formatted document that
you'd utilise?---Yeah. In fairness, I've probably only ever
done it five or six times. It's normally been the
responsibility of the person that works with me to do that.
So - - but my understanding of - - of how I've done it in the
past is either a fax, or now you can go by email - - it's sent
off to BCI. Then it's normally returned reasonably promptly
and then you deal with whatever comes.
All right. Well, on the morning of the 8th of September 2004
- - it may not have been the morning. At some time on that
day did Mr Ando speak to you about an anonymous report that
he'd received?---I don't recall the day but I - - I clearly
recall the incident because it was as a result of two separate
bits of information, two different information that we had
about someone who potentially may have been nest robbing.
Another one was done by an officer by the name of Matt Dowling
- and it was during the 2 weeks that I'd been away on a
kangaroo job just previously - and he'd actually, you know,
filled out IRs, done the checks and whatever, and I followed
up. And then that morning Andrew came to me with words to the
effect of, "I've received anonymous information", which is not
unusual, "About someone looking at - - someone with a ladder
on their car and galahs looking very stressed." Now, at the
time I was very busy. I can't recall whether I said, "Can you
please do the rego?", or he offered, but either way Andrew
went off and conducted the rego check. Well, he said to me
that he was going to.
Right. Now, did you ever hear back from him?---Yes. I can't
recall whether it was the next day or the day after. He
definitely came back into my office. He said to me words to
the effect of, "It's anonymous information. The rego doesn't
match the vehicle", or words to that effect. And I had a
laugh with him at the time saying that anyone driving around
with a ladder on their roof chasing galahs is an amateur and
is asking to be caught. And at no time did he say to me that
he had not received the fax. If he had not received the fax
then I would have suggested to him that he should probably resend
it.
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MR HALL: Now, the fax machine at these BCI reports come in,
is it a dedicated one? Is there one fax machine that they
come in on?---It's our dedicated fax but it's in the operation
room away from everyone and, you know, faxes come in without
people being aware.
Right. Have you seen Andrew Ando collect faxes from that fax
machine?---Sure. In fact, the day that he come to me I was
fairly - - Andrew had actually done the BCI check that day -
or a BCI check - because I walked past him at the printer and
I was chatting to him, as we always do. We get on very well
and have up until the 16th. And he - - he had a BCI form
coming out of the printer. I saw the heading. I could not
tell you what it was - - what the topic was but it was out of
the printer as opposed to the fax.
And was this before or after the conversation where he first
told - - ?---It's definitely after.
After?---I had a - - I have a - - a belief that - - or I felt
at the time that it was probably the fax that he was going to
send off in relation to the information. But, you know, we
get lots of - - lots of calls come in. We do lots of rego
checks.
Now, you've told me what you would have done had you received
this information. What you would expect a wildlife officer to
do having received this information. And I think you went on
to say that the fact that it was Phil Green - - we've seen the
BCI report now, which we've obtained from BCI. It shows that
that car was, in fact, Phil Green's. Mr Green and his wife
have conceded that they're on the video. Does that enhance
the significance of the information as far as you're
concerned?---Oh, absolutely. That time of year; prime nesting
time, prime egg time. Information - - that I and Andrew are
aware that Mr Green's been - - you know, well, it's been
suggested that he'd been involved in that type of activity. I
mean, absolutely we'd be investigating it.
All right. Well, Mr Dawson, moving on to another topic. Can
you tell me where you were at about 8.30 am on the morning of
the 16th of September?---I was at 27 Mararinga Way, Wundowie.
And that's Mr Green's address?---It is .
And what were you doing there?---I was executing a search
warrant in company of Customs, Police as a result of
information that was provided to us by the CCC.
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MR HALL: Having said that, were you looking to investigate
whether offences involving wildlife had been committed?---Yes.
And were some items seized?---We seized an incubator and a
number of galah, corella, major mitchell and a red-tail egg
and some chicks.
Are you aware that Customs conducted a number of searches in
the eastern states that were related to this investigation?---
I am aware, yes. I wasn't aware until that day.
Right. Now, in regard to the execution of that warrant, had
Mr Ando been told that that warrant was to be executed prior
to that day?---Prior to that day? No. I got a phone call
from him from that day. I was requested that day by the CCC
to - - that they were going to do an integrity test on Andrew,
which is not a great feeling when you're trying to conduct a
search and it's against one of your fellow officers, but, you
know, this is an opportunity to see whether these allegations
were true. So I - - I agreed to do it, and yes, I received a
phone call from Andrew suggesting that a search warrant was
going to be conducted later on, or words to that effect,
because Malcolm couldn't contact me. And that's the basis of
it.
Right. And you didn't tell him that in fact you were doing
that search at that time?---No. My words to him were that - -
because on the board I was supposed to be at Calingiri, and I
said to him, "Oh, I must have been away from the phone. I
didn't hear Malcolm calling me. Have you contacted the boss?"
and he said no, he hadn't but he would.
Now, did he indicate to you either in that conversation that
in fact he knew Green; that Green was a personal friend of
his?---No.
Did he indicate to you that he intended to call Green very
shortly after making the call to you?---No.
Did you notice whether Mr Green took a telephone call while
you were present?---He received numerous calls. In fact, he
received one call from Peter Mancini from gaol, and Peter
Mancini got on the phone and had a talk to me as well from
gaol.
Right. You may have heard me put some of the questions that I
did to Mr Plant. I wonder if you might comment on whether you
think some of the propositions I put to him might make a
difference in your working environment. In regard to security
checking, is that something that could be implemented in the
CALM environment?---Security checking of persons?
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MR HALL: Security clearances of investigative officers?---I
mean, it can't hurt, can it? I mean, in the environment that
I'd come from before - - before this was, you know, I had very
high security clearance.
Is it important to you and to CALM to have a close and
cooperative working relationship with Customs?---I've worked
very hard over the last 7 years. Malcolm Plant, if anyone,
will tell you I've worked very hard to try and foster a good
relationship with Customs, and if you look around Australia I
think CALM and Customs in WA have the best relationship and,
as a result, there's been some 27 offences.
Now, if there has been leaks of information from CALM, does
that run a risk that it could imperil the relationship between
Customs and CALM?---Oh, no doubt. And, you know, as a result
of this I'm hopeful that us and Customs are going to move
forward from this.
Good. Thank you, Mr Dawson.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond?
MR HAMMOND: Yes. If it please you, Mr Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR HAMMOND:
MR HAMMOND: Mr Dawson, you said that you were a friend of Mr
Ando's up until recently; is that correct?---Well, I haven't
seen him since the 16th of September.
That being the day on which he was suspended from office at
CALM?---Yes. Yeah.
And would you describe yourself as a close friend of Mr Ando?-
--No, not at all. But he's been to my house.
And you socialise together?---On a couple of occasions. Me
and Andrew - - you need to know that when you work in a
special investigations section you work close together as a
group. We've been out doing sandalwood jobs, spent plenty of
time away.
And you had told him, had you not, that you were an
investigator with the navy?---Yeah. Sure.
And you had told him you acted as an internal investigator
investigating other officers?---Yeah. No doubt. Yeah. That
was in a previous job. It's not something that I wanted to do
in CALM.
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MR HAMMOND: And is it the case that Mr Mell appointed you as
an investigator to investigate Mr Ando - - -
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MR HAMMOND: - - - investigate Mr Ando?---I mean, in the terms
of what you're saying, yes, that's correct. But what he was
doing was trying to validate. I mean, it - - it's - - you've
got to understand, I mean, people try and do this all the
time, try and cast aspersions. I'm sure there's stuff
floating around about me. The best way to protect your people
and - - is - - is to investigate it and see if there's any,
you know, substance to the rumour.
But Mr Mell appointed you to investigate Mr Ando, that's
correct, isn't it?---Oh, he appointed me to look into it.
Now, whether he actually said "investigate him", no. I don't
- - I don't think I was actually investigating him. I
actually - - I was just - -
Well, Mr Mell - - ?--- - - substant - -
You've heard Mr Mell's evidence, haven't you?---Yeah.
And Mr Mell said he appointed two people to investigate Mr
Ando?---Yeah, me and Nick Phillips looked into it. No doubt
about it.
So he did appoint you to investigate Mr Ando?
MR HALL: Commissioner, I said this before, but perhaps I
should say it again; I object to this line of questioning.
The allegations that are made in this Commission do not depend
in any way upon anything done by Mr Dawson by way of
investigating the conduct of Mr Ando. The evidence that is
relied upon by the Commission to establish that Mr Ando - - or
will be relied upon by the Commission to establish that Mr
Ando has engaged in corrupt conduct is quite independent of
anything done by Mr Dawson.
COMMISSIONER: I'll let Mr Hammond continue for the moment.
MR HAMMOND: Yes. May it please you, Mr Commissioner.
(TO WITNESS): So I take it your answer is "yes" to that
question?---Yeah, we - - we conducted inquiries, sure.
Yeah, and what were the nature of those inquiries that you
conducted in relation to Mr Ando?---We listened to some tapes.
We did some CCR checks, call charge record checks and that's
it. End of story.
And you must have felt that you had a conflict of interest in
investigating Mr Ando, if you were on a personal relationship
with him?---I never felt like I had a conflict at all. I was
actually hoping that they wouldn't be true.
But hadn't you, over the years, also had conflict with Mr
Ando?---Me and Mr Ando parted ways. He was, as he said
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himself, he was very stressed. If - - if you actually have a
good look into that, I actually had him in my office. I
suggested he take counselling. I went to the boss, I
supported him all the way through that. Yes, we did have a
conflict. He had more of a conflict with me than I had with
him. I think that's a little unfair.
MR HAMMOND: And your evidence to the Commissioner is that Mr
Ando was very competent as a wildlife officer until the last
few days of his employment?---Well, I had no reason until I
received the information. Even to that day, I mean, all I had
was information that he'd contacted Phil - - oh, sorry, that
Phil Green had contacted his parents.
And you also told the Commission that an allegation had been
made by Mr Ando against you to the effect that he'd tried to
steal your - - you'd tried to steal his thunder, is that
correct?---Oh well, I didn't even realise - - I didn't even
realise that was an issue. The boss called me in and said
that Andrew thought that I was taking all the credit for
everything done. Me and Andrew discussed that at length and
if that was the case, I apologised to him for that and agreed
to rectify that and we - - we departed, I believe, on good
terms.
In relation to complaints that are received by CALM, is it not
the case that there are a lot of complaints received on a
daily basis?---Oh, absolutely.
And not all of those complaints are investigated?---No. I
mean, as an officer, you need to make some decisions at the
time.
And if the complaint is one where the caller is anonymous,
does that derogate from the strength of the complaint?---No,
we've had some very good success on anonymous, so what you do
is you take the complaint, you investigate it, you see if
there's anything - - any substance to it and then you move
forward from there. Without anonymous complaints, you know,
no police force in the world would be able to work.
And you say on the date on which the check that BCI was done
allegedly by Mr - - well, done by Mr Ando, that you thought
you saw him in the facsimile room?---No, not at all.
You didn't think you saw him?---No. Not at all. I said, and
I'm clear with this, I'm fairly sure that he may have typed it
up on his computer, sent it to the printer, but I saw
definitely him going to the printer picking up a BCI request
form - -
But you didn't - - ?--- - - from the printer.
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MR HAMMOND: You didn't - - ?---I've no - - I've no - - I
don't know if he sent it, I don't know if he received it.
And you don't know what was on that BCI form, do you?---Not at
all. No.
So what happened in that room is pure speculation on your
part?---No, I didn't speculate that anything happened in that
room.
Well, you spec - - you say that he had a BCI form in his
hands?---Yeah. I - - I'm quite clear. I don't know if you
understand, what happens is the printer and the fax are some
distance away. I'm walking past my office to the other wing
and Mr Ando picked up a BCI form from the printer which had to
have been generated from our office. That is all I said.
And did you notice that in your capacity as a colleague of Mr
Ando's or in your capacity as investigating Mr Ando?---No, I
noticed it as I walked past. I mean, I was just there.
When you - - were you originally appointed to investigate Mr
Ando? Do you recall when that was - - -
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MR HAMMOND: - - - you recall when that was?---I was - - I was
appointed to investigate the allegation that had been made
and, as a result of that, it was some time before. But what
had actually happened was, we had had some problems with
Telstra of training CCRs, so there was a 2-month lag in
relation to us getting clearance, because they've changed the
way they do it. We used to receive all our CCRs by fax, and
we had some huge problems with our computer system and the
security stuff so it took a couple of months. In that time
I'd been appointed by the Director of Nature Conservation to
look into the kangaroo industry, which is my number one
priority, and I had operations and plans to undertake. So as
a result of that some time had actually elapsed before we were
in a position to receive that. As soon as we received the
information we then tried to correlate it, and I was
discussing it with my boss that morning of the 16th.
You say you were shocked by Mr Ando's behaviour after you
discovered the information that you'd received?---Shocked by -
- I don't know what you mean.
You and Mr Phillips, I think it was - particularly Mr Phillips
- listened to tapes?---Yes.
And those tapes indicated that Mr Ando may be leaking - - ?---
The tapes indicated - - I'll tell you straight. The tapes
indicated that Phil Green - "my mate" - was - - he had to call
his mate's mum to find out how to talk to her for a little
while that day. As a result of that we then correlated the
timings, the CCRs and the time when he said he was going to
call and when he called back to talk to Peter Mancini, they
all correlated in a nice neat package. I provided that
information to my boss. I never made any other assumptions
apart from that. They're the facts.
And your boss is who?---Dave Mell.
And are you superior to Mr Ando in ranking?---I'm a level 3.
And what was Mr Ando, to your knowledge?---He did - - when he
come and worked for me he got to acting level 3. I think he's
back to a 2 or 1. I couldn't tell you.
And was it you that wanted him removed from the special
compliance operations unit?---No. The decision was made
mainly by the boss. He was actually - - he was quite
irrational. He was quite distressed at the time. The
decision was made by the boss that it was in his best
interests. It was maybe believed that he was probably not
suited to the role. He has - - as he said, he received some
threatening phone calls, and they were concerning him. That
decision was made in the interests of Mr Ando and that's just
the way it is.
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MR HAMMOND: Do you recall some heated arguments between
yourself and Mr Ando?---No. I recall me and Mr Ando having
discussions, him venting his - - you know, his problems in
relation to what I did or what I had done over a period of
time, me sitting there listening and letting him have his - -
have his go, and then trying to work from that point. I mean,
he had some issues with the way I conduct business and, you
know, it's only reasonable that you listen to what they've got
to say, and if there's some substance to it, try and change
the way you do your business.
Mr Ando says that the relationship between you and he became
so broken down that at one point an argument endured for an
hour and a half and you broke down crying; is that correct?--
-That's not true. We had some discussions that went for that
length of time, no doubt, but as far as breaking down and
crying, that's not the truth.
Is it the case that employees were regularly allowed to use
equipment belonging to CALM?
COMMISSIONER: We're going down this track again, which is of
no relevance really to this inquiry, Mr Hammond.
MR HAMMOND: Sir, in the private transcript which has now been
made public those allegations were put to my client. I can
take you to them if you like.
MR HALL: Well, they're not being put now.
MR HAMMOND: Well, I understand they now form part of the
record, and they also form the basis upon which an adverse
inference can be made against my client. If counsel doesn't
wish to take that issue up in relation to the private use of
equipment then I'll desist from this line of questioning.
MR HALL: I don't wish to take that matter up.
MR HAMMOND: So there'll be no issue in relation to the use of
equipment by CALM officers.
COMMISSIONER: No.
MR HAMMOND: Mr Commissioner, I'm loath to trespass on the
direction that you made yesterday in relation to impugning or
seeking to impugn the credibility of witnesses called before
the Commission who have spoken against Mr Ando. I have a
number of matters that I wanted to put to this witness which
relate purely to issues of credibility, and I'd seek your
direction in that regard. They don't relate to the specific
allegations concerning Mr Ando but they do relate to this
person's position as an investigator of Mr Ando. And I would
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put to you that in that regard they are relevant. But I'm
certainly keen not to trespass - - -
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MR HAMMOND: - - - keen not to trespass.
COMMISSIONER: Well now, what are the factual issues which
have emerged from Mr Dawson's testimony which are relevant to
Mr Ando? They are, I suppose, the issue concerning the
facsimile.
MR HAMMOND: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: What else?
MR HAMMOND: He's made statements about Mr Ando's competency
but they've generally been favourable.
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR HAMMOND: He's made statements to the effect about the
breakdown in the relationship between himself and Mr Ando.
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR HAMMOND: He's made statements more pertinently about the
fact that he was utilised as an investigator of Mr Ando. I
would have thought upon that basis alone I'd be entitled to
call into question the validity of that appointment,
particularly bearing in mind the relationship that existed
between the two men, which seemed to oscillate between good
and bad, and he can't just be, in my respectfully submission,
a one-way street where Mr Ando's reputation is attacked,
particularly bearing - - in the context of the fact that this
man is a relatively junior officer at CALM. I think the whole
system in which he worked is surely relevant to his actions.
COMMISSIONER: Going back - -
MR HAMMOND: And, sir, sorry, if I may just continue.
COMMISSIONER: Please do.
MR HAMMOND: Maybe at a later stage, if this matter is taken
further and brought before another tribunal, that it may be
put why these matters weren't raised at the first opportunity.
But I'm happy to accept - -
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR HAMMOND: - - whatever your rulings on - -
COMMISSIONER: Do you want to make any observations, Mr Hall?
MR HALL: Well, I do, Mr Commissioner. Yes. I would have
thought that issues as to credibility only arise if there are
points of dispute with the witness' evidence. There seems to
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be precious little that Mr Hammond has, in fact, disputed that
Mr Dawson has given by way of evidence. Invited by you, he
has only indicated those four areas, I think, one of which
appears to be of no moment at all because Mr Dawson's evidence
is that Mr Ando previously had been competent.
In regard to him being an investigator, I've already indicated
that whatever Mr Dawson did in that regard is of no moment at
all to the determination of the issues before us here. It
would seem therefore, with great respect, that the credibility
of this witness does not - - is really not in issue. There is
nothing that Mr Hammond can point to that he takes issue with
that Mr Dawson has said that bears upon the matters you have
to determine. I can't for that reason see why it is relevant.
MR HAMMOND: Well, sir, maybe if I could just add to that.
COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hammond.
MR HAMMOND: I understand my friend's rebuttal on that point
but my point is essentially two fold and that is it also
relates to the culture in which Mr Ando worked and that is,
indeed, significant in terms of this Commission's
investigation. Now, there was one area which we've already
discounted, because there's no intention to make an adverse
inference, and that is the area where it's alleged that Mr
Ando may or may not have used equipment belonging to CALM but
that's no longer in issue as I understand counsel assisting.
But there are other - - several other areas which call into
question the systems which were in place at CALM and which
allowed what we say was corrupt or inappropriate behaviour to
occur and it was in that context that Mr Ando was employed, it
was in that context that allegations have been made against
his behaviour. Now, it could well be said, "Why weren't these
matters raised before the Commission when you had the
opportunity?"
Mr Commissioner, there's three broad areas - and I don't
intend to put them to the witness but merely to you - and one
is that CALM officers were indeed sanctioning corrupt
behaviour, and that is senior officers, in that they were
engaging in the sale of fish through the CALM office, storing
it at the CALM office, selling it on a cash basis without a
licence to do so. There was persistent downloading of
pornographic material on CALM recording equipment and using
CALM discs. This was so rife that employees of CALM either
left - and I can name one of those employees but I won't do
that at this juncture - and indeed there was also sexual
harassment perpetrated on various employees.
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Now, I know that this is beyond the scope of the investigation
of this Commission but I think it's valuable in terms of my
client's position that it - - the scene needs to be set for
the culture in which these officers operated - - -
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MR HAMMOND: - - - these officers operated and it also needs
to be acknowledged and recognised that my client is but a
junior officer of CALM operating under the guidance, either
appropriate or inappropriate guidance, of much senior
officers. And there are a number of allegations of this type
which will certainly reflect, probably adversely, on senior
officers of CALM. We really do not think that it's good
enough for all the allegations to be levelled at Mr Ando in
this vacuum, who is one of the most senior - - who's one of
the most junior officers.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall?
MR HALL: None of those matters self-evidently relate to
conduct which is in any way similar to that, that you are
examining here, Commissioner. If there are allegations of the
sort that Mr Hammond raises, the appropriate thing to do, in
fact, the necessary, the lawful thing to do, is to make proper
complaint to the Commission so that they can be investigated.
This is not a forum for every matter which Mr Hammond thinks
is somehow relevant under this broad heading of "culture" to
be ventilated. If there were some conduct that in a
meaningful way impacted upon the allegations made about Mr
Ando, then there might be some merit in his suggestion, but it
is difficult to see how, even if it were true, engaging in the
sale of fish for cash payment could somehow condone or make
proper what is alleged against Mr Ando. So with respect, the
matters raised by Mr Hammond could not possibly, on any view,
be relevant to the matters being investigated here, but I
would urge him to do the appropriate thing which is to put
those matters in writing with the appropriate evidential
indications and submit them to the Commission so that they can
be properly and thoroughly investigated.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond?
MR HAMMOND: Yes. Maybe if I could respond to one part of
that, and that is, Mr Ando has the opportunity to raise, in my
respectful submission, these allegations now and this is
indeed the appropriate forum. Counsel in his opening address
aid that corruption in the Public Service is an insidious
matter and it can manifest itself in many ways. Now, it's not
appropriate, in my respectful submission, just to confine the
climate in which Mr Ando operated to one or two allegations
without seeing the whole picture. Otherwise, in my respectful
submission, the investigation is jaundiced. I mean, it may,
Mr Commissioner - and this is indeed the thrust of my response
to counsel assisting - it may explain why Mr Ando thought it
was appropriate to continue his liaisons with people who were
persons of interest, that there was such a culture that
permeated at CALM that indeed it wasn't inappropriate for that
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to continue because of other actions that he saw carrying on
and being conducted at CALM himself. And Mr Commissioner, the
- - it seems to me that the broad purposes of this Act - - and
I know it's very convenient for counsel assisting just to
confine this to one narrow line of inquiry, but the broad
purposes of the Act under section 7A are:
"- - to improve continuously the integrity of and to reduce
the incidents of misconduct in the Public Sector."
Now, it's all very well to pick out one of the most junior
officers at CALM and point the gun at him, but what about all
the people that he worked with? Do we really believe that in
any organisation the insidious effects of inappropriate
behaviour, corruption, only exist in the realm of one man?
I'm not saying that - - and by that, I don't want to be seen
to be admitting that Mr Ando has indeed done anything. As his
counsel, I'm not entitled to do that, but it will be said why
haven't these matters been raised? Mr Commissioner, I respect
your direction on the matter and I will only proceed if you
give me authority to proceed.
COMMISSIONER: What counsel assisting suggests as the
appropriate course of action is the appropriate course of
action with respect to any person having complaints, not only
about CALM, but any other public sector institution in this
state. What I think is being put to me is that there were
other issues which were around the agency at the time and they
in some way - - -
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COMMISSIONER: - - - and they in some way might explain Mr
Ando's actions. Mr Ando seems to me, by my observations, to
be of full age and ability, and he's responsible for his own
actions. I cannot see at this stage any of those issues being
at all relevant to this inquiry before us. I think that you
have dealt with Mr Dawson on the factual matters upon which
issue can be taken, and I'm not proposed to - - I'm not
inclined in any way to reverse my previous ruling on what is
before me at this time.
MR HAMMOND: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: On that basis, have you finished with Mr
Dawson?
MR HAMMOND: I have, Mr Commissioner, thank you.
COMMISSIONER: Yes. Is there any re-examination?
MR HALL: There is not, thank you, sir.
NO RE-EXAMINATION
COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Dawson is free to go if he
wishes.
WITNESS: Thank you.
WITNESS WITHDREW
COMMISSIONER: We'll adjourn now until quarter to twelve.
HEARING ADJOURNED AT 11.30 AM
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HEARING RESUMED AT 11.45 PM
COMMISSIONER: Now, Mr Hall, where are we?
MR HALL: Commissioner, I would seek to now recall Mr Green.
COMMISSIONER: Yes, if Mr Green would come forward, please?
PHILIP GREEN
COMMISSIONER: Mr Tudori is present?
MR TUDORI: Yes. Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER: Good. Please sit down, Mr Green. You're still
on oath of course?---Yeah.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall?
EXAMINED BY MR HALL SC (continuing):
MR HALL: Mr Green, earlier this year, did you transport,
carry, some West Australian native bird eggs to the eastern
states?---That's correct.
And you took them to a Mr Collingridge, did you?---Correct.
And you had conversations, did you not, with Mr Collingridge
and also a Mr Grissel about the exportation of such eggs
overseas?---Yeah.
Yes?---Yes.
What were you hoping to get back in return?---Oh, just tradeoff
for birds. Originally the deal was that they wanted hand
- - wanted birds over there to hand-rear to free-flight.
All right, but subsequently there was some talk of there being
a courier coming every two weeks, was there not?---They told
me about that. I wasn't involved in that.
Right, but you knew that that's what you were being asked for
eggs for?---They'd asked me in one phone call.
Yes?---Yeah.
To fill a consignment that was being exported overseas?---
They'd asked me, yeah.
Yes. And you couldn't provide as many eggs as they wanted?---
No.
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MR HALL: But you looked for them, didn't you?---I had a look
around, yeah.
Yes. Now, in the end you were able to take some eggs to Mr
Collingridge?---Yeah. I took three.
Which you carried - - ?---Not from out of the wild, but - -
Well, you carried them personally over to Mr Collingridge?---
Yes.
And you did that knowing that it was illegal to transport eggs
to the eastern states, be they from the wild or laid by
captive birds?---Yes.
Now, you said you were expecting something back in return, an
exotic?---Yeah, bird, yeah.
Yes. Something specific?---Oh, yeah. Probably macaws if they
were available, yeah.
A Hyacinth Macaw?---No.
Hyacinth Macaws are very valuable, aren't they?---Yeah.
COMMISSIONER: What's the prefix?
MR HALL: A Hyacinth.
COMMISSIONER: Hyacinth?
MR HALL: I take it that refers to the different colours.
They're different coloured birds?---Different species.
I see. All right. So you were hoping to get a macaw; did you
get a macaw from - - ?---No.
- - Mr Collingridge? Now, Mr Grissel told you on one
occasion, did he not, that the reason why he could have no
further dealings with you was that a number of couriers had
been intercepted and arrested?---Yes.
And that that had in fact closed down the business that was
being run at that point in time?---Yes.
Now, can I play you this call, please? It's number 173, a
telephone call of the 23rd of August this year.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Mr Collingridge is based in Queensland I think, is
that right?---Yeah.
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MR HALL: And you accept, do you not, that he was there
talking about a courier going back, coming back - - going
overseas and coming back a couple of weeks later?---Yeah. I
think that's what he was referring to. Yeah.
Yeah; and the 60. Was that eggs?---Yeah.
As you understood it?---Yeah. I think that's what he was
talking about. Yeah.
All right. Can I then take you to 174?
COMMISSIONER: Are you tendering that?
MR HALL: It is already an exhibit, sir. It's KO3.
COMMISSIONER: KO3.
MR HALL: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER: Of course. Yes.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: All right. That's again about the same topic, isn't
it? Providing eggs for consignment?---Yeah.
For this courier?---Yeah.
And the pink ones you're there saying, I take it, that it's
difficult to get anything other than pink galah eggs?---Yeah.
But they are of value overseas. You know that, don't you?---
Lutino galahs?
No. Pink and grey. Just ordinary pink and grey galahs?---Oh,
yeah, I suppose. Yeah.
Yes. Now, can I ask you to listen to 175. Before that
starts; Charlie Sultana, do you know him?---Yeah.
Did you go to visit him at some time during this year?---
Charlie?
Yes?---Yeah.
Were you going to a do? A party of some sort?---Oh, his - -
yeah, a party for his grandson. Yeah.
His grandson?---Mm.
Did you go to it?---Yes.
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MR HALL: Can we listen to 175, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: You accept, don't you, that that's you speaking to
Charlie Sultana?---Yeah.
And where Mr Sultana says, "You done a delivery already?",
that's - - you had, in fact, taken some eggs over and
delivered them to Mr Grissel, hadn't you?---Yeah. Three galah
eggs.
Three. All right?---From my own birds.
Yes, but you knew that was unlawful to do that?---Yeah, but I
didn't know - - they weren't to be exported. He wanted them
for himself.
And then what Charlie Sultana was telling you was that they
had been broken - - ?---Apparently. Yeah. One of them.
- - by one of Mr Grissel's children?---Mm.
All right.
(TO COMMISSIONER): That one is tendered, Commissioner, as
KO4. The previous one I played I'm told has not been
tendered. If I could tender 174.
COMMISSIONER: So, 174 will become KO22. 175 is already
registered as KO4.
EXHIBIT KO22 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 174
MR HALL: Thank you, sir. Yes. Can we then play 170?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Again, you speaking to Mr Collingridge?---Yeah.
And when he says that "there's a next trip in 2, 2 weeks",
that's the courier, isn't it, who's going overseas?---I don't
know about overseas; to come over and pick them up, yeah.
To come over here and pick them up?---Well, you'd taken some
over before?---Yeah. I've only been there once with three.
But you knew that these were going overseas as well, didn't
you?---Not really.
Right. Well, I'll play you some more calls in a moment, but
when you then talk about you've "got a few" and you've "been
out", you were out collecting from the wild, weren't you?---I
hadn't collected any from the wild. I was looking around.
You were looking though?---Looking.
And you were looking to fill this order that Mr Collingridge
had effectively placed with you?---Oh, I was looking around
for mutation stuff for myself.
Yeah. You were looking out in the bush though?---Mm.
Yes?---Yes.
And the problem was that due to weather conditions the nesting
season seems to have been delayed; is that right?---Yeah.
Pretty much.
I tender that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO23.
EXHIBIT KO23 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 170
MR HALL: And can we then hear 183, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Again, you and Mr Collingridge?---Yeah.
And you're not - - well, at the beginning of that conversation
Mr Collingridge says that, "He" - that is his contact - "is
more worried about the stuff that's the other way as well."
That's the birds that - - the exotics that are being imported,
isn't it?---Yeah. Could be, yeah.
Well, that was your understanding, wasn't it?---Yeah. What he
was saying, yeah, I wasn't involved in it.
Well, you were involved in it to the extent that you expected
to get a macaw in return for what you'd - - ?---They were
birds that he had at his property already.
Well, the macaw that you were getting, you were going to use
this F10 on, were you?---No.
But you do use that on the exotics that you get?---Use it on
all birds, mm.
To wipe out Newcastle's disease, amongst other things?---No.
It's not just - - it's a disinfectant.
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MR HALL: We don't have Newcastle's disease in Australia, do
we?---Yeah, they had it in Newcastle, in chicks, but it's not
- -
No, it's not - - ?--- - - specifically for that, it's - -
- - named after Newcastle in Australia. Newcastle's disease
is unknown in Australia, apart from illegally-imported
exotics; did you not know that?---No, I thought they'd put
down a lot of chooks and chickens over the Newcastle - -
Oh, it's deadly to chickens?---But anyway, I mean, it's not
just for that. It's got about 10 different uses and a lot of
aviculturalists to use on their eggs and their birds. It's
used for nebulising. Stops candida and other diseases.
"I've been looking in 30 white-tails' nests"?---Yeah.
That's white-tailed black cockatoos?---Yeah.
You'd been out looking in those nests?---No. I told you
before, I wouldn't know where there was 30 nests.
But you'd had - - ?---I was just saying it - -
You had been up in the bush - - ?--- - - to him to keep him
off my back a bit.
But you had been looking in white-tail nests?---I'd been - -
I'd been looking in the bush at different mutations and
different birds, yeah.
And white-tails?---Not specifically, no. Probably - - I only
know where there's - - told you before, one or two, probably.
And you looked in those?---One.
With a view to seeing if there were any eggs that you could
take?---Just to see what was around.
But if there'd been eggs, you would have taken them?---Not
necessarily.
Well, that was why you were looking?---No.
Are white-tailed black cockatoos highly prized overseas?---
Yeah.
Very valuable birds?---Yeah, you already know that.
Well you know it too, don't you, Mr Green?---Mm.
23.11.04 P. GREEN XN 172
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MR HALL: Incidentally, can you confirm for me, when I asked
you about whether you had taken any consignments of eggs to
the eastern states at your private hearing, you initially
denied that you did, didn't you?---Yeah.
Can you recall why it was that you told me that you initially
denied it?
MR TUDORI: Sir, I rise at this stage - -
WITNESS: Not really.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Tudori?
MR TUDORI: I question the relevance of this line of
questioning into the scope and integrity - - into the public
sector. I fail to see the relevance of what this witness has
done relates to inquiry into the public sector.
COMMISSIONER: Well, it's not quite an inquiry into the public
sector, Mr Tudori. You will recall, and I go back to the
scope and purpose of this proposed examination and the scope
and purpose is to enable the Commission to make an assessment
and form an opinion as to whether misconduct by a public
officer including but not limited to Andrea Giovanni Ando has
or may have occurred, is or may be occurring or is or may be
able to occur or is likely to occur. And that convoluted
series of words is taken from the Act. I would have thought
that in the course of the last day and a half there has been
enough connection established between Mr Ando and Mr Green to
have justified the line of questioning. Could you make your
objection a bit more specific, however?
MR TUDORI: Mr Commissioner, I have no difficulty if this
relates to the tip-off or any knowledge that Mr Ando had of Mr
Green's involvement, but if the questioning relates solely to
activities that Mr Green has done, that had no knowledge of Mr
Ando, then I fail to see the relevance of that.
COMMISSIONER: Right. Do you want to respond to that, Mr
Hall?
MR HALL: Yeah, I'm happy to respond to that, Commissioner.
The relevance is that this is an inappropriate relationship,
that is, between Mr Ando and Mr Green, that it's not merely a
relationship with someone who keeps birds, but with someone
who, on his own admission, is engaged in illegal activity
involving those birds. That places this inappropriate
relationship into a much more serious category. This is not
matters of mere speculation on the part of the Commission,
it's not something that merely prejudices Mr Ando in the
course of his work, it's something that can potentially have
extremely serious consequences for the enforcement of the law.
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COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond?
MR HAMMOND: Purely in relation to that matter, it hasn't been
established before this Commission that Mr Ando was aware that
Mr Green may be involved in some smuggling racket. That
material hasn't been put before the Commission.
MR HALL: That is self-evident, I think, Commissioner.
MR HAMMOND: Well, with respect, it's entirely not. There is
no evidence whatsoever that Mr Ando has any knowledge of this
man's activities overseas.
MR HALL: I just thought I'd made it clear that the point was
to show that the nature of the relationship was inappropriate
because of what Mr Green was involved in, not because Mr Ando
may have known of that, but because it shows that a
relationship with a person in this industry can have very
serious consequences. I have not said, and quite pointedly
have not said, that Mr Ando knew of these activities - - -
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MR HALL: - - of these activities specifically that Mr Green
was involved in but having said that I should say to Mr
Hammond that this evidence is not yet finished and there is
further evidence to put to Mr Ando in due course.
COMMISSIONER: Will that evidence to be put to Mr Ando in due
course provide or suggest any linkage - - I'm sorry, you said
to Mr Andu - -
MR HALL: Ando - -
COMMISSIONER: - - Ando or to Mr Green?
MR HALL: It won't suggest linkage with this conduct that Mr
Green - - is being put to Mr Green at the moment.
MR HAMMOND: Well, then it's irrelevant, Mr Commissioner.
MR HALL: No, it's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant for
the precise reason that I just stated which is it
characterises the nature of the relationship. A relationship
with someone who is the subject of enforcement activity might
be thought to be of very little consequence if that person is
doing no more than keeping birds. But if that person is, in
fact, involved in illegal activity - whether it be to the
knowledge of Mr Ando or not - it shows the danger of such an
unlawful - - such an improper relationship. It shows that an
improper relationship of that sort can lead to difficulties in
the enforcement of the law, whether Mr Ando knows that or not.
MR HAMMOND: Sir, that's an incredibly long bow to draw, with
respect, and it's - - it's, if you like, a smear on Mr Ando
virtually by the association. It would suggest that anyone
that one comes into contact with, notwithstanding that you
don't know what their extra curricular activities may be, that
by virtue of those extra curricular activities which you have
no knowledge of that that in turn impugns the relationship.
That cannot be right.
COMMISSIONER: Well, that's not the argument for today,
however, but it might - -
MR HAMMOND: No.
COMMISSIONER: - - be the argument for later on. If the point
is to establish the - and I'll borrow a phrase from Mr Hammond
- "the extra curricular activities" of Mr Green, might it not
be said that what is already before the Commission clearly
points in that direction?
MR HALL: Yes. That is so. That is so. And I am content - -
there is perhaps one other call that I would seek to play to
Mr Green but - - that is so but can I take up one point that
23.11.04 P. GREEN 175
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Mr Hammond has said? Is not drawing a long bow in
circumstances where Mr Green is and was known to Mr Ando to be
a person who had engaged in illegal activities in the past.
It was not therefore - - it is not a long bow for him to have
at least some consciousness that Mr Green might be engaged in
some activities at the moment and, in fact, what this evidence
shows is that that is not mere speculation on the part of the
Commission. So, it is not a long bow to draw at all, with
respect, but I would seek to play perhaps just one more call
in regard to this matter.
MR HAMMOND: Well, sir, I maintain the objection because
clearly one cannot be impugned or have aspersions cast on them
merely because they don't know of their colleague's
acquaintances or business - -
COMMISSIONER: I look forward - - I look forward to your
argument in that connection.
MR HAMMOND: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: Which is an argument and a submission which
will have to be put - -
MR HAMMOND: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: - - and will be of interest but that's jumping
ahead a little.
MR HAMMOND: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: We've got a more instant problem at the moment.
MR HAMMOND: Yes. And can I also say that there's still no
evidence before this Commission that Mr Ando is aware of these
- - whatever these activities are that Mr Green is engaged in.
COMMISSIONER: Probably the evidence isn't finished yet.
(TO MR TUDORI): Back to you, Mr Tudori.
MR TUDORI: Yes. Thank you, Mr Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: I think you rose on the question of an issue
concerning a response that had previously been given. Well,
just clarify that for me.
MR TUDORI: Well, the previous responses have already been
given and they have been given - I don't take any issue with
that - but it's whether this line of questioning can continue
and as I understand it Mr Hall has indicated that he won't
persist that except for one more.
COMMISSIONER: One more call.
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MR TUDORI: But it's that one further call I still object to.
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR TUDORI: As, Mr Commissioner, you've put that the character
of this witness is already before the Commission I fail to see
what even one more call could possibly show relevance unless,
of course - - and I accept if it does go to knowledge of Mr
Ando then I don't object to that but unless there's some
direct connection then I do object to it.
COMMISSIONER: We're three-quarters of the way down the
straight. There's one more call to come. We'll let that call
come in.
(TO MR HALL): Mr Hall.
MR HALL: And I won't press the question regarding the
previous answers given.
COMMISSIONER: No. No. That's not necessary.
MR HALL: Can we hear 172, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Can you confirm for me that that's you speaking to
Jason Grissel?---Yeah.
Right. Now, at around that time had you become aware through
reports in the media that a number of couriers had been
intercepted and arrested at airports in Australia?---Yeah.
And is that what you in fact are talking about with Mr
Grissel?---That's what he's informing me of, yeah.
Yes. Well, when he says, "Mate, at this point of time I've
finished until further notice. They all work for the same
place," you understood him to be talking about those
couriers?---I gathered that's what he meant.
Yes?---I mean, that was the first conversation that he - -
that I'd had with him.
Yes. Well, except when you'd met him earlier and delivered
some eggs to him?---Yeah. But, I mean, I didn't know that
this was all involved in export then.
Right. Well, you certainly knew that at this point, didn't
you?---Oh, yeah. They're telling me that, yeah.
He's telling you that, "When they did the two of them in - the
two couriers - in fact that did the whole five of them in, and
so there's no one else that can do the job now with the stuff
that you've got there." So your stuff - your eggs - were
intended for these couriers; yes? Yes, Mr Green?---Well,
they were going to come over and pick and up and take them
back. I mean, at that stage I was only just finding out then
that they were going overseas.
All right. In respect of the licensing of birds, is it your
experience that the licensing system that exists in Western
Australia is lax?---Yeah. Pretty much.
It's such that you can play around with it, isn't it? They're
words that you've used?---I might have used them words, yeah.
Depends what you mean by "play around with it".
All right. Well, what do you mean - - when I said to you,
"It's lax," and you agreed with it, in what ways have you
found the licensing system to be lax?---Well, they don't - -
they don't push you to have your returns in on time or
anything. I mean, you can send them in 2 months late if you
forget about them. And I'm away, sometimes Anne does them,
yeah. They don't keep very good track of anything.
And when you say "they" don't push you, that's the - - ?---
CALM.
23.11.04 P. GREEN XN 178
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MR HALL: CALM don't push you?---Mm.
And what about the process of legitimising? Have you ever
heard of that?---Legitimising?
Yeah?---How do you mean?
Or covering. Providing a cover for a bird. That is, covering
a bird on a licence. Have you heard of that process?---I've
heard - - heard it mentioned, yeah. I mean, there's lots of
terms for covering.
Have you heard that term used?---Obtaining birds.
Sorry?---Licensing birds. They call covering obtaining birds,
licensing birds, looking after birds.
Have you heard of wild bird - - these wild-caught birds being
covered by somebody's licence?---I've heard people talk about
it.
Can you explain to me how that can be done - - -
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MR HALL: - - - to me how that can be done?---How?
Yeah. How?---Not really. I mean, I haven't done it.
You've heard of it being done?---Yeah. I've heard people talk
about it in conversation.
What's your understanding of how it can be done?---Pardon?
What's your understanding of how it is done?---How they - -
how they cover birds?
Yes?---Possibly if one dies, I suppose, it gets replaced with
another one. I mean, I don't know. I haven't - - I haven't -
- I haven't done it.
If a bird dies, is there any obligation to tell CALM that
that's occurred?---Not that I know of.
So you could then quite easily replace it with a wild bird and
no one would be any the wiser?---Yeah. Possibly, I suppose.
The returns that you're obliged to do; how often do you have
to do those?---Once a year.
When you say that they don't press you for those - - ?---
That's correct.
- - how long then after the year passes have you put in
returns?---Oh, I think - - I don't know. I mean, you'd have
to check with CALM. I'd say possibly our last - - not our
last licence, the one before was probably 3 months overdue.
You don't get a - - they send out a renewal probably a month
before. I mean, I'm away most of the time. Sometimes I
forget about it and they don't get back to you. I mean, yeah;
if I do a permit or something I might talk to one of the
blokes in the office in there and they'll say, "Your licence
is up for renewal," or "has expired" and I'll fill it in there
and then, or - - yeah; I mean, I don't know. They don't - -
it's not like in the eastern states anyway.
Now, on the morning of the 16th of September this year a
search warrant was executed at your premises, wasn't it?---
Yeah.
You recall that both Customs officers and CALM officers
attended at that time?---Yeah.
And you received a telephone call from Mr Ando, didn't you?---
Yeah.
23.11.04 P. GREEN XN 180
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MR HALL: Could we hear, please, KO20, which is barcode 199.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Now, who do you understand the Charlie is that's
being referred to there? Do you know any Charlies?---Yeah.
I'd say Charlie Sultana it would be, yeah.
Was it Charlie's birthday on the 16th of September?---No. I
couldn't remember when his birthday was, like I said before.
Do you know when his birthday is?---I have rang him for his
birthday, but, I mean, yeah, Andrew would remind me. I mean,
no; not exactly. I think you said February or something
before.
Yes?---Mm.
Do you accept that? It's the 8th of February?---Yeah. I'd
accept it, yeah.
Right. This was a code, wasn't it?---No.
It was a code to let you know that you were about to be
searched?---No, it isn't.
You were being searched at the time that that occurred?---
Yeah. That's correct.
Can we listen to T180, which is exhibit KO7, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: In saying that you were "in the midst of having a
good day, actually", what you were communicating to Mr Ando
was that you were in fact in the middle of a search at that
very moment?---I wasn't communicating anything. I was just
getting off the phone because I didn't know what was happening
at the time, like I told you before - - -
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WITNESS: - - - like I told you before, had 15 people or
something going through my house and I had a few phone calls
and I didn't really want to listen to any of them. I was too
busy involved in what was going on at home.
MR HALL: In respect of this passing on of the message, did
you ask Mr Ando either - - at any later stage why it was so
important that you pass on a message to Charlie Sultana about
giving him a happy birthday?---No. I'd probably really
forgotten about it. I mean, more involved in what was
happening at home. Mm. Forgotten all about the call.
Can I suggest to you that you had on an earlier occasion
agreed a form of words - a code - that would be used whereby
Mr Ando would alert you in the event that he became aware that
you were ever going to be searched?---No. Told you before
that's not - - that's incorrect. I don't know anything about
happy birthday being a code or anything like that.
I asked you a moment or two ago whether you'd ever used the
words that "the system that was in existence in Western
Australia was one that could be played around with." You said
you might have used those words?---Mm.
Were you - - ever suggested to anyone - for example, Mr
Collingridge, the person who has been the subject of some of
those calls I played you - ever suggested to him that it might
be a good idea to deal directly with you because the system
here was one that could be played around with?---Um, I don't
know. I mean, the conversation - - something could have come
up in conversation. I can't recall all the conversations I
had with him.
Right. Well, why would the laxity of the system help with the
sort of business that you were talking about with Mr
Collingridge?---I don't know that it would have.
I have one more call that I would then seek to play,
Commissioner. It's 253. It relates directly to these
questions I have just asked.
COMMISSIONER: All right.
MR HALL: 253.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Who were your couple of good contacts, Mr Green?---I
can't recall.
Oh, do try harder?---I can't recall. I can't recall the
conversation.
23.11.04 P. GREEN XN 182
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MR HALL: You were talking with Mr Collingridge?---Yeah.
Who you've previously talked to about exporting wildlife to at
least the eastern states and you're saying to him here, "Why
don't they deal directly with us? We've got a system we can
play around with and we've got a couple of good contacts."
Who are they?---Could have been bird dealers. Could have been
- - I don't know. People I associate with. I mean, I can't -
- nothing in that call - - no, I can't recall what that call
was about actually.
Contacts where?---I don't know.
Do you have any contacts in the Department of Conservation and
Land Management?---No. It wasn't - -
Do you have any friends there?--- - - to do with them.
Do you have any friends there?---I have friends. Yeah.
Mr Ando?---Yeah. I've already stated that he's a friend and
his parents.
Was he one of the couple of good contacts?---No.
That you were referring to?---No. I only had one contact in
there anyway, not a couple. Like you said there, I mean, I
can't - - can't recall what that conversation was actually
about.
Do you consider Mr Ando a good contact?---No.
Has he ever assisted you in providing you information?---The
only information is that little bit about Moora. You know,
that was cut short, as you already know, you've heard the - -
heard what I've said about that.
He's provided with you - - you with information on other
occasions, hasn't he?---No.
Commissioner, that's all the questions I have for Mr Green.
COMMISSIONER: Right.
MR HALL: I tender that, thank you. I've missed 172. It was
tendered as KO - - 172 was tendered as KO6 - -
COMMISSIONER: Oh, right.
MR HALL: - - and can I tender 253.
COMMISSIONER: 253 will be, I think, KO25. That right?
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ASSOCIATE: 24.
COMMISSIONER: 24. Oh, because - - yes.
EXHIBIT KO24 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 253
MR HALL: Thank you, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond, do you have any questions?
MR HAMMOND: No. Thank you, sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HAMMOND
COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Tudori.
MR TUDORI: No. No questions, sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TUDORI
COMMISSIONER: No questions?
MR TUDORI: No.
COMMISSIONER: You don't require Mr Green any further?
MR HALL: I don't. No, sir.
COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Green. You're free to go and
discharged from further attendance.
WITNESS WITHDREW
COMMISSIONER: I wonder should we adjourn at this stage?
MR TUDORI: Perhaps if I just could announce now that in light
of Mr Green being excused or no longer required that will be -
- that will cease my appearance before the Commission.
COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you, Mr Tudori.
MR HALL: Yes. It would be convenient to do that now,
Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: Would that worry you, Mr Hammond?
MR HAMMOND: No. Not at all, sir.
COMMISSIONER: Well, let's say we'll adjourn now and resume at
quarter to two. How's that?
HEARING ADJOURNED AT 12.32 PM
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HEARING RESUMED AT 1.47 PM
COMMISSIONER: Now, Mr Hall?
MR HALL: Commissioner, I would seek to recall Mr Ando.
ANDREA GIOVANNI ANDO:
COMMISSIONER: Please sit down there, Mr Ando.
EXAMINED BY MR HALL SC (Continuing):
MR HALL: Mr Ando, I asked you yesterday about any dealings
that you may have had with a Richard Polglase. Do you recall
that?---Yes.
And you told us that you had collected two birds on an
occasion?---That's correct.
Is that the only dealings that you've had with Mr Polglase?---
That's correct.
So have you spoken to him on the phone at all?---I'm sure I
probably have, yes.
About what?---About work issues, about licensing and stuff. I
don't recall totally, but I've had dealings with him on the
phone, yes.
Did you speak to him about the collection of these
yellow-tails before you went to collect them?---I'm sure I
did.
When you say you're sure you did, I take it you don't have a
recollection?---Well, I'm sure I contacted - - I'm sure I
contacted him to tell him that I will be picking them up.
Did you have any understanding of what the transaction was
between your father and Mr Polglase?---The transaction was
that the birds were going to go through Maurie Luke, so they
were arranged through - - between Polglase and Maurie Luke.
Yes?---When I found out about it, because I'd spoken to Mr
Polglase in the past, I thought it would be more wise for the
birds to go directly to dad's cages, otherwise they'd get
stressed out.
Why couldn't the birds be brought directly from Mr Polglase?--
-Because I was going out that way.
Yes, I know, but why did your father purchase through Maurie
Luke's shop? Why not purchase directly from Mr Polglase?---
Because my father has been doing work for Mr Luke.
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MR HALL: Do you know what was paid for these birds?---I don't
know.
Have you ever heard the phrase, "dummy permits"?---No.
Never?---Not that I know of.
Ever used that phrase yourself?---I've not used that phrase,
no.
You're quite sure about that?---Yeah. Pretty much.
What do you mean, "pretty much"?---Well, unless I've used it
doing an investigation, I don't recall using the term "dummy
permit", but there's many terms used for various permits in
investigation.
Have you ever heard of that phrase, "dummy permits", in the
course of your work?---Not that I recall.
Your father is licensed to keep parrots?---That's correct.
Including black cockatoos?---They're all black cockatoos.
All right. Do you know how many of each sort are on his
licence?---When I last did his licence there were three
white-tails, two red-tails and two yellow-tails.
Are the two yellow-tails the yellow-tails that you picked up
from Mr Polglase, I assume?---That's correct.
Do you know where Mr Polglase got them from?---No.
Were you not advised where Mr Polglase had got them from?---
No.
You weren't involved at all in the sourcing of those
yellow-tails?---No.
Do you know whether those yellow-tails were provided to your
father in return for some work that he had done for Mr
Polglase?---No. I believe he'd done work for Mr Luke.
Had he done anything at all by way of a favour or by way of
work for Mr Polglase?---Not that I'm aware of.
Has your father ever held more than the three white-tails that
are on his licence at his premises?---Three white-tails, two
red-tails and two yellow-tails.
Yes. But has he held more white-tails than three?---Not that
I'm aware of.
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MR HALL: Can I ask you to listen to this telephone call?
It's on the 26th of July 2004. It's barcode 212.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Who's Norm?---Norm is probably Norm Sullivan.
He is involved, is he not, in the bird-keeping fraternity?---
He is a bird-keeper, yes.
What was he delivering to your father?---I'm not totally sure.
I - - I recall trying to organise a number of birds for dad,
and I don't think he ended up getting all the birds that he
wanted anyway, and - -
What - - ?--- - - that's why - -
What sort of birds were they?---Well, he was going to get back
the three white-tails that Norm was looking after for him.
Well, your father's already got white-tails?---No, no. He had
- - he was building the cages. We received complaints for a
while, so Norm had took three away to look after while dad
finished the rest of the cages, because they were in a small
cage.
Why did he call them "plants" at first?---Well, there's also
plants involved because I cultivate roses and I also do
fuschias.
And it just happens to be the same number, is it? He's going
to bring six plants?---Well, I don't - - I - - I - - I do not
recall that conversation. That's nearly six months ago so I
don't - - I don't recall it.
Could it be that you were calling these birds "plants" because
you were at work and didn't want anyone to know what it was
you were talking about?---Possibly, but I don't - - I don't
know.
There were six white-tails being delivered, weren't there?---
No. Not that I know of. Dad - - dad had arranged with - -
with Norm to look after the birds. Now, he'd told me that the
cages are nearly ready so I took it on my bat to ring Norm to
ask for the birds back because the cages were finished.
Well, if three are being delivered, how does it make it 10?---
I don't - - that's what I - - that's what I mean. I - - it
doesn't make sense.
Well, it does if they're being delivered and there are more
white-tails at your father's premises than he is licensed to
keep?---There was never more white-tails at my father's
premises that I'm - - that I'm aware of.
Well, that's what I'm suggesting to you, that he was holding
white-tails at his premises that in fact he wasn't licensed to
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keep?---I don't - - I doubt it. I'd made sure that dad's
licences were always kept proper. Now and - -
MR HALL: Well, he kept birds there for Richard Polglase,
didn't he?---No.
You're quite sure about that?---Well, not that I'm aware of,
no.
It won't tell you by looking at that transcript?---Well, I - -
that's what I'm saying. I'm not aware of anything being held
by Richard - -
You're quite sure?---Yeah, I just remember talking to Richard
Polglase and I picked up two yellow-tails.
And that's it?---And the two - -
That's the sole content of your dealings with Richard
Polglase?---That I'm aware of, yes.
All right. Well, let's see if we can jog your memory:
"I don't want to talk about it" - you said - "because I'm at
work."
Why didn't you want to talk about it "now" if - - ?---Well,
it's the same reason that - -
- - there was nothing wrong with what you were doing?---We've
gone through this. The same answer as every other answer. I
didn't want to involve anyone at work.
But you're saying that he was licensed to keep these. Why
would you not want to talk to him about it, if he was licensed
to keep these birds?---Because I don't think it's anyone
else's business. A person's licence is their own personal
licence. It's got no - - no business of anyone else's.
You see your father refers to keeping them in the first one,
that is the first cage, because no one can see it. Do you see
that?---Yeah, because that - - that one there is completed.
That - - that cage there has been there for a very long time.
Yes, but "no one can see it", he says?---Well, because - -
There was some importance that no one could see these birds,
wasn't there?---Because of the complaints.
Well, how does not being able to see them stop them being
noisy?---Well, pretty obvious, when you see a bird and there's
no wall in the way, the noise is going to be much greater.
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MR HALL: "No one can see it". The point was that you didn't
want, or your father didn't want, anyone to see how many birds
were being kept there?---I - - I - - I can't answer that. I
don't - - I don't know what to answer to that.
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MR HALL: Can we listen to 213, please? Oh, sorry, I should
tender the previous one, Commissioner, which is - -
COMMISSIONER: KO25.
EXHIBIT KO25 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
MR HALL: And 213.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: In relation to the making a lot of noise, there had,
in fact - - I think you told us yesterday there had been a
complaint about the noise they made?---Yes.
And it was at that stage that you declared that your father
was a licensed keeper of birds?---Yes.
Have you ever indicated to your father that the noise wouldn't
be a problem because you were working at CALM and you were in
a position to see to any complaints that were made?---Not - -
no.
Never said anything like that?---No. I - - we'd received
complaints and I told Dad that when you get bigger - - when
the cages are bigger and the birds are on their own they will
be less stressed and they won't be as noisy.
Wasn't the real cause for concern that if they made a lot of
noise it might attract attention and the fact that there were
illegal white tails being kept at your father's premises would
become known?---No. That's not true. I can tell you what's
true though. Is that on numerous - -
You could just answer the questions, if you would?---No.
That's not true.
Can I tender that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO26.
EXHIBIT 26 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 213
MR HALL: And can we listen to 214, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 191
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MR HALL: So, you have used the phrase "dummy permit"?---
Obviously.
What do you understand it to mean?---I don't know. The - -
see, and that's - - it's clear in there as well is whatever he
does it's his - - his business.
Well, "Get a dummy," you say?---However he gets the yellow - -
however - - gets the yellow-tails, I don't know.
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MR HALL: We're not talking about yellow-tails here, are we?--
-That's what - - that's the only transaction we've had with Mr
Polglase is yellow-tails.
Well, the yellow-tails come in, don't they? The yellow-tails
aren't going out. It's the white-tails that are going out?---
Well, it's - - like, we're talking pretty much gobbledegook
there, so - -
Well, perhaps I can explain it to you. "There's some
white-tails here. They're being kept at your father's place.
They are being sent out to Victoria. Yellow-tails are coming
back." Is this ringing a bell?---That's incorrect.
Not correct?---No.
Well, let's go back to the beginning of this transcript. Your
father's a bit worried about having them there too long.
What's he worried about. What are "they"?---Well, that's the
thing. The birds bring in wild birds, okay. Now, throughout
the year we've had up to 30, 40 wild birds on top of the
cages. Now, that's where most of the complaints come from.
Our neighbour has got cancer, and he made - - we think he made
the original complaint. Now, since that original complaint my
dad and my neighbour - - and his neighbour have not talked,
okay. So the amount of birds that land on top of his antenna
and make such a racket is phenomenal.
Have you ever suggested to your father that he catch some of
these birds that are coming down on top of the cages to - - ?-
--No.
- - fill an order that someone - - ?---No. I've told him, and
I can quote this - - I told him to get a hose and hose them
away, because that's what I got directed from one of my
officers.
Just so I understand this, you've never told him that he
should go and catch one to fill an order?---Oh, I might have
mucked around. I could have said it mucking around, but - -
Right?--- - - yeah; never.
He's worried about having them for too long, not for the too
many. So there's too many. Not too many birds on top of the
cage; there's too many in the cages?---Yeah. Because there's
only one cage.
Yeah?---Two - - two red-tails and the white-tails in one cage
is not very good.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 193
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MR HALL: "When's the quickest?" he said. "When's the
quickest he can get rid of them?" You see that?---Well, I do
not recall that conversation. It's that long ago.
Well, it's not that long ago. It's in July this year?---If
you're under the stress that I'm under it's pretty long ago.
Well, a little while ago you told me that the only dealings
you'd had with Mr Polglase were about the collection of these
two yellow-tails?---I went to Mr Polglase's place, picked up
two yellow-tails. How he arranged the two yellow-tails I do
not know, and I tried to - - he's obviously talking about
that, so - -
This - - ?--- - - I didn't want to know.
This conversation is not about the collection of those two
yellow-tails, is it?---It is pretty much.
Is it? Explain that to me. What's a dummy permit got to do
with it?---I don't know.
A dummy permit. When you were going to collect these two
yellow-tails - - ?---I don't arrange - -
- - that had nothing to - - ?---I don't arrange - -
Wait. It had nothing to do with a dummy permit, did it?---I
don't arrange permits.
Well, he says, "I might even do a dummy permit." "Yeah.
Whatever, mate. We'll have them all there by lunch time,
mid-afternoon tomorrow." Now, you are at this time a serving
wildlife officer and someone is talking to you about a dummy
permit?---That's what I said, "Yeah. Whatever." I didn't
want to know anything about it.
You don't want to know about it as a wildlife officer at 6
o'clock - - ?---Someone's talking - - I knock off - -
- - about a dummy permit?---I knock off at 4.30.
Oh, I see. And after 4.30 you're no longer a wildlife
officer?---I'm a wildlife officer all the time. But what he
means and how he does things, I didn't want to know, because
that's how I distance myself.
Well, anyway, this is ten past four so you're definitely a
wildlife officer at ten past four. Why aren't you interested
in someone telling you that they're using a dummy permit?---I
don't know.
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MR HALL: Surely as a wildlife officer that should have
brought - - made alarm bells go off. Someone is using a dummy
permit to send some birds out of the state?---Well, was there
a dummy permit done? I don't know.
Whether you knew it or not, here's someone telling you they're
doing it?---Well, what does a dummy permit mean?
Well, what do you think it means?---I don't know.
Well, sitting there now, are you telling me if someone said to
you now, "I'm going to use a dummy permit to export some birds
out of Western Australia," that that wouldn't cause you some
concern as a wildlife officer?---I don't know what he means by
it, I don't know how he did it and I don't know what a dummy
permit means because I don't - - I'm not - - I don't get
involved in issuing permits.
Well, you see, you go on to tell him that nothing ever goes
wrong going out - that is, exporting birds from Western
Australia. You say there's - - he's asked - - he asked,
"There's no inspection here at all, is there?" and you say,
"Not on the way out, no"?---I said, "Not that I know of.
Well, no; in fact on the second page - - ?---Not that I'm
aware of.
About halfway down the page:
"If we were to send them out there's no - - there's - -
actually, I meant to ask you before; there's no
inspection here at all, is there?
"No. Not on the way out, no. Yeah, not that I'm aware of."
Well, why are you giving him that sort of comfort? He's
talking to you about whether there's going to be an
inspection, and you say, "Not that I'm aware of"?---I don't
know.
Why do you think he might be concerned about there being an
inspection on the way out, Mr Ando?---I don't know.
Because he's doing something illegal. That must have occurred
to you - - -
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MR HALL: - - - that must have occurred to you?---Not - - not
that I'm aware of.
Didn't it occur to you that he was concerned about an
inspection because he was doing something illegal?---I don't
even know what he meant by it.
You know, don't you, that it's illegal to export fauna, West
Australian fauna from Western Australia?---That's why he was
getting permits, obviously.
That's why he was getting a dummy permit, because these were
wild-caught birds?---I don't know - - I don't know what he
arranged to get the yellow-tails. That was his arrangement.
I don't even know where they came from.
You see at the bottom of that page, he's talking about:
"Yeah, well I will get a permit for - - cause I will probably
do is get a permit to send, say, four or five, oh,
five, and I'll send them out and then the very next
night, I'll send again."
So there are in excess of five - - ?---I don't - - I - -
- - of these things he's sending out?---I don't know what he
did to get the yellow-tails. That's what I'm trying to say to
you. All we did was obtain two yellow-tails from him.
What were the five things that he was obtaining from your
father, that your father was concerned about because there was
too many of them, that he was sending over east?---I do not
know.
They're white-tails, aren't they?---No. I - - I'm not aware
of any of that.
You - - you've - - all this conversation that you have with Mr
Polglase and you've got no idea, you say, of what he's talking
about?---No.
No idea what he needs a permit for, no idea what the four or
five are?---All I know is, is that he arranged obviously
something to get the two yellow-tails and what he did, I don't
know what he did to do that, so he was obviously trying to
tell me, but I don't understand what he's going on about. I'm
just going, "Yeah, all right. Yeah, all right."
And you've no idea what there were too many of in your
father's cages?---Too many black cockatoos in a small cage.
Yes, some of which are being sent over east?---No.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 196
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MR HALL: Isn't that what you're saying here?---No.
"He's anxious to get rid of them", and Mr Polglase is saying,
"Yeah, well I'm going to send four or five of those things"
over east?---Doesn't say anything about "those things."
Well, perhaps I'll play you some more then.
(TO COMMISSIONER): Can I tender that, Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER: KO27.
EXHIBIT KO27 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
MR HALL: 215, please?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: It is clear, isn't it, that Richard is coming to
your parents' place to pick these things up, the white-tails?-
--No.
"When will he come and pick them up?" your mother asks - - ?--
-It could have been cages, it could have been anything. Could
have been plants. I - - I seriously don't know. All I know
is that I picked up two yellow-tails.
Well, it could have been plants? Do plants make a lot of
noise, do they?---Well, the birds make a lot of noise.
Yes. So it's these birds, it's the white-tails, isn't it?---I
- - where did the white-tails come from? I don't - - I don't
understand - -
Well, what do you think it was? You're playing a role here,
clearly, in talking to Mr Polglase and then talking to your
parents. What was it that you say he was picking up?---The -
- I had - - the amount of phone calls I get, I don't even
remember what I did last week, let alone on the 26th of July,
and what that conversation is over. I do not know.
You say:
"But I told him that we want to get them out quick and he
said, `Yeah, fair enough.'"
Now, the reason I suggest you want to get them out quick is
that there are too many for the licence?---I don't know.
Your mother's concerned that they will attract attention
because there's so much noise and - - -
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MR HALL: - - - because there's so much noise and you say,
"Well, I'm duty officer so if there's problems we'll sort it
out."?---The noise issues is within the same issue. They're
in a small cage.
Well, how are you going to sort it out if there was a
problem?---I don't know. We're going to have - - we were
pretty close to finishing the cages obviously.
I suggest to you that you were going to sort it out because
being duty officer you would deflect any complaints that came
in until such time as the excess illegal parrots were
removed?---The amount of complaints we get about noise - - all
noise complaints get referred onto the shire anyway. Noise
complaints has got nothing to do with us at all.
You're in a position if such complaints came in to receive
them and to deflect them?---It's back to the shire.
Yes. If you pass it onto the shire?---Well, I'll tell the
people to refer to the shire because we got nothing - - we got
no legislation against noise.
Can we listen to 217, please? I'm sorry, I should have
tendered that one, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: 215 will, I think, be KO28.
EXHIBIT KO28 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 215
MR HALL: Thank you.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Right. You're there talking about Richard Polglase
coming to your father's place to pick up these birds, aren't
you?---I don't recall the conversation.
All right. You see that there's a reference there to Charlie
needing it quick. "Phil doesn't need another one." Oh,
because - - you say, "Because Charlie needed it quick. He got
it from somewhere else." You see you say that?---The only
thing I can remember is that Dad had bred a white-tail and it
was young and we were going to do a straight swap for an adult
bird.
Right. Well, it wasn't necessary, it would seem, for there to
be six picked up by Mr Polglase because Charlie, who was to
receive one of those six, had got one from somewhere else. Do
you accept that that's what was occurring?---There was an
arrangement and we - - the arrangement went through. There
was a swap of a young bird, that Dad had bred with Maurie, for
an adult bird. that's the only thing I can remember were the
transaction.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 198
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MR HALL: Well, what Charlie got though - -?---I don't know
what Charlie got.
- - was a white-tail?---I don't know what Charlie got because
it says - - we didn't need - - we didn't need to give that one
to Charlie so we didn't do it.
So, you don't know what's being talked about here again? You
don't know that they're white-tails?---No. I know that Dad
was going to give the young white-tail - - -
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WITNESS: - - - was going to give the young white-tail to
Maurie to send to Charlie, and that transaction fell through.
And that happened at another time.
MR HALL: Yes. It fell through because Charlie in fact got a
white-tail from someone else?---Obviously.
Yes. Indeed, I can show you 1185 - - sorry; 11845. If you
can bring that document on the screen.
(TO WITNESS): An export licence. The call I just played you
was the 27th of July and this is an export licence issued on
the 20th of July, and you can see that Mr Sultana has been
sent a Carnaby's black cockatoo from Mr Luke. So a matter of
a few days before this call that you have with your father.
You see that?---I don't know when the transaction happened,
but I know that dad gave a young Carnaby's cockatoo to Maurie,
and Maurie must have sent it to Charlie.
Yes. So it's plain, isn't it, then that - - ?---But I wasn't
aware - - I'd - - I'd have nothing to do with the arrangement
of that permit and how - - how that bird went over there. I
don't - -
I'm not suggesting you do, but what Charlie had got prior to
this call on the 27th of July was a white-tail black cockatoo.
That's what a Carnaby's is?---Possibly, yes.
Well, not possibly. You know that?---Well, yeah, it is, but I
don't know the dates and when the transaction occurred.
Yes. I'm not suggesting you do, but what I am suggesting is
that the transcript then of the conversation on the 27th of
July, what you're talking about is white-tailed cockatoos.
You don't need six because Charlie has already got one?---I
don't know.
So there are at least five of them that are at your father's
house that Richard Polglase is coming to collect?---Not that
I'm aware of. You're trying to put words in my mouth. It's a
bit unfair.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm asking you
what else this conversation of the 27th of July could mean
other than what I am putting to you?---I don't know.
Well, I'm giving you a fair opportunity. You tell me what it
means if it doesn't mean what I'm suggesting to you?---I don't
know what it means. I can't remember what - - like I said, I
can't remember what I did last week let alone 6 months ago, or
5 months ago. And you can ask my wife that.
Commissioner, can I tender the export licence?
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 200
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COMMISSIONER: Which I think will be KO29.
EXHIBIT KO29 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Export licence
MR HALL: Can we go back to the transcript? Yes. I'm just
going to go back to that. Can we go back to the transcript,
please?
(TO WITNESS): Towards the bottom of that page you say, "So he
will do five, or four first and then five." So there are
either nine or 10 depending on how you view that. Clearly
there are nine or 10 white-tails; isn't that what it means?--
-I've never seen nine or 10 white-tails.
Well, can you again suggest any other interpretation that can
be placed upon this, other than the one I'm suggesting to
you?---I've got no comment on that. I can't remember what the
conversation was about.
You know, don't you, that Mr Polglase did indeed ship - -
transport two loads of birds from Western Australia to
Victoria?---It could have been, but there was obviously some
arrangement he had made for yellow-tails. I don't know.
You spoke to him about the shipping out and then the shipping
back of yellow-tails, didn't you? The shipping out of
white-tails, the shipping back of yellow-tails?---I don't - -
I don't know.
You don't know?---No. He does transactions - - if you go
through his licence, the amount of transactions he's done in
relation to nine and 10 white-tails is probably pretty high.
In what capacity were you speaking to Mr Polglase? As a
wildlife officer or on behalf of your father - - -
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MR HALL: - - - or on behalf of your father? This is with
your father - - ?---On behalf of - -
- - yes - - ?---On behalf of my father.
I see. Did you ever bring the fact that Mr Polglase had
spoken about dummy permits to anyone - - to the attention of
anyone within the department?---No.
Why not?---I don't know. I investigated - - I've investigated
Mr Polglase on numerous occasions. I've done inspections of
his premises on numerous occasions. I've done inspections on
over 100 aviculturalists with the same amount of cockatoos,
the same names that come up all the time and it's just - -
that's my duty and that's what I do. I arrange - - I've - -
I've dropped their numbers after doing inspections on these
people's premises.
You talked about two shipments, two flights; can I show you a
consignment note 11846. As you can see from that, there was
indeed a consignment of live birds by Mr Polglase on the 29th
of July 2004 which is two days after your call to your father.
Now, and it was being sent to a Mr Tanaglia ?
in Melbourne.
You heard that name before?---Never.
COMMISSIONER: What was your answer then, sorry?---Sorry, I
never heard that name before.
MR HALL: Sir, I tender the consignment note.
COMMISSIONER: KO30.
EXHIBIT KO30 Mr Hall DATE 29.7.04
Consignment note 11846
MR HALL: And can I then show you a second consignment note,
11848, of the following day, again from Mr Polglase to Mr
Tanaglia, of live birds on the 30th of July 2004. I tender
that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO31.
EXHIBIT KO31 Mr Hall DATE 30.7.04
Consignment note 11848
COMMISSIONER: What was the meaning of "pieces, 1" then "live
birds", no sorry - -
MR HALL: That's a weight, I think.
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WITNESS: It's one box with live birds.
COMMISSIONER: Oh, one box.
MR HALL: Yes, that's correct.
COMMISSIONER: Okay.
MR HALL: It's an item. It becomes apparent in another
consignment note that I will show in a moment. It would seem
the number of live birds is not actually included on the
consignment notes, generally speaking.
COMMISSIONER: Oh. The "6" doesn't mean birds?
MR HALL: It doesn't. I think it's a weight, it's 6
kilograms, I think.
COMMISSIONER: Big birds.
MR HALL: Well, that's the case as well.
COMMISSIONER: Oh.
MR HALL: I think.
(TO WITNESS): So you can see, consistently with what you were
saying to your father, there were in fact two consignments
sent by Mr Polglase to Victoria within a couple of days of
your conversation?---Have you checked Mr Polglase's
transactions? He does on a weekly basis.
Well, what I want - - ?---He sends birds out on a weekly
basis.
Well, he may well do, but - - ?---So how can that be connected
to what I had in my conversation - -
Well, it can be connected because you're saying to your father
that "Richard is coming to collect some birds", four and then
five "within a couple of days"?---I don't know who - - where
he was going to collect them from. That's what I'm saying.
The only dealings was - -
He was collecting them from your father - - ?--- - - was two
yellow-tails from my father. That was - -
He's collecting them from your father. That's plain, from
these conversations?---I don't know where he's going to
collect them from.
Well, why do you think your mother in the previous
conversation was concerned about when he was coming to collect
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them because of the noise they made, if they weren't being
collected from your father's place?---I don't know.
MR HALL: All right. I tender 215, Commissioner - - sorry,
217.
COMMISSIONER: 217. There were two consignment notes, 11848
is 31.
MR HALL: Yes, and this is the transcript, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: Oh, right. 217, KO32.
MR HALL: Thank you.
EXHIBIT KO32 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Transcript of audio tape
Barcode 217
COMMISSIONER: Well, are there two consignment notes?
MR HALL: There are two consignment notes and they were - -
COMMISSIONER: Are you tendering them together as 31?
MR HALL: No. You - - I think they've been tendered as 30 and
31. The first consignment note was the 29th of July, that's
KO30 and the second was the 30th of July, that's KO31.
COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you.
MR HALL: Did you have anything to do with Maurie Luke
becoming involved in the transfer of the yellow-tails from Mr
Polglase to your father?---I do recall telling Maurie to make
sure that he puts them on his returns.
Ah, right. Well, you didn't tell us about that before. What
did you do - - ?---I've told it - -
- - about that?--- - - in a previous hearing.
What did you do about that?---I remember calling Maurie to - -
to make sure that - - because my father had the permit - - -
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WITNESS: - - - my father had the permit and I check returns
on a regular basis, being duty officer, and I'd not seen my
father's name on any of the permits but most of the bird
dealers returns aren't always up to date or aren't always done
properly. So, I made sure that Maurie placed those on the
permit.
MR HALL: Right. Did you ever check to see whether Maurie
Luke, in fact, had a licence for yellow-tails?---Not that I
recall. What do you mean? Licence for what? He's got a
licence to deal in any bird.
Did you check to see whether he had a licence specifically in
respect of yellow-tails? He has a personal licence as well as
a dealer's licence, doesn't he?---That's correct.
Have you checked his personal licence?---I may have.
What for?---I don't - - in the past I've checked everybody's
licence.
Right. Did you check it in respect of this matter?---Not that
I recall.
What I'm asking you specifically is did you check his personal
licence to see whether he was licensed to carry, to own two
yellow-tails?---Not that I recall.
Can I suggest to you that you did and you did so because there
was an attempt to, in fact, distance the source of these
yellow-tails - that is, Mr Polglase - from your father to make
it appear that they had come from Mr Luke rather than from Mr
Polglase?---That's incorrect.
And the reason that that was being done was that you didn't
want the illegal trade in the white-tails that was going
through your father's premises to be linked back to him by way
of these yellow-tails that he was getting him to - -?---That
is - - that's totally incorrect.
All right. Well, let's listen to 218.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: So, the intention was to keep it away from Mr
Polglase all together, wasn't it?---I was pretty honest in
saying that I got them from Mr Polglase because the - - Dad
did work for Mr - - for Mr Luke not Mr Polglase.
Yes. You've told us that you collected them from Mr Polglase
but what was going on here was that the records would show
that they came from Mr Luke. That was the intention, wasn't
it?---Because Dad did work for Mr Luke.
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MR HALL: I know you say that he did work for Mr Luke, but the
intention here in regard to the documentation was the
documents would show that they came from Mr Luke and not Mr
Polglase?---Through the returns. Yes.
But Mr Luke had never owned these yellow-tails?---No. What
they should have done - and I don't know why they didn't do it
- is transfer the birds from Mr Polglase to Mr Luke.
But - -?---But how they did it I don't know.
You see Mr Luke is becoming involved precisely in order to
place some distance between your father and Mr Polglase.
That's the case, isn't it?---Do you want me to tell you the
honest truth why?
Well - -?---It's because I'm friends with Mr - - Mr Green, Mr
Polglase, a lot of other people, and they don't all see eye to
eye. So, that's why I didn't want anyone to get involved with
anyone else while they're there. I mentioned it before in one
of the conversations that I - - about not wanting to be there
when someone else is there because if people don't like each
other that's got nothing to do with me - - -
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WITNESS: - - - that's got nothing to do with me.
MR HALL: Well, there's no - - ?---I can be friends with
whoever I want to be.
There's no reason to believe that Mr Polglase doesn't like
your father. He's going there to collect birds?---There's - -
I never said that there's no - - there's nothing wrong with Mr
Polglase and my father.
Well, then why couldn't Mr Polglase transfer them directly to
your father?---Because the original deal was my father had
done work for Mr Luke. And then the deal was going to be
between Maurie and Richard.
So when Polglase says, "That way we could keep it away from me
altogether," what did you understand that to mean?---Oh, so
there's no - - so there doesn't have to be a transfer from - -
obviously from Richard - - Mr Polglase to my father.
You see, but at this stage Mr Polglase didn't even know
whether Mr Luke had yellow-tails on his licence?---Mr Luke
doesn't need to have yellow-tails on his licence. He's got a
bird shop.
Yes. But they're clearly going to be put through his personal
licence?---Well, I can't - - well, that wasn't the case.
Well, he asked you to check it for you and you said, "Yep"?---
Well, if you have - - you've obviously got the other
conversation. I told you last time, I told Mr Luke to put
them on his returns.
Did you check Mr Luke's licence?---Not that I can recall. I
may have, but not that I can recall.
Well, why would you do that? Why would you do such a thing?--
-I don't know.
Well, you have access to the licence database, don't you, as a
wildlife officer?---Even if I did, it doesn't mean - - it
doesn't mean - - whether he's got yellow-tails or not doesn't
mean anything.
But you're not supposed to use that access in order to help
friends or relatives?---I didn't say - - I never told anyone
about any licences.
So you haven't - - you're telling me you would not - - ?---If
I did it is because Mr Luke would have asked for it. And if
it was an issue between me and Mr Luke I would have told Mr
Luke if he'd asked me.
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MR HALL: So you wouldn't have told Mr Polglase that, yes,
it's fine; Maurie Luke does have yellow-tails on his
licence?---No. Because I didn't want the transaction to be
like that.
Can I tender 218, Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER: 33.
EXHIBIT KO33 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
MR HALL: And might we listen to 219?
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
COMMISSIONER: I think before Mr Hall rises we just might have
a 10-minute break, and during the course of that break, Mr
Ando, I'd ask you to remember what I said to you this morning
about the seriousness of failing to give correct evidence
before this Commission. Just think about that. We'll have a
10-minute break.
HEARING ADJOURNED AT 2.40 PM
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HEARING RESUMED AT 2.50 PM
COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammond?
MR HAMMOND: Commissioner, during the adjournment, I took the
opportunity of speaking to my client, particularly in relation
to the statement that you made to him prior to rising for the
adjournment, and I've informed my client about the
consequences of not being frank with this Commission and I
took that indulgence after speaking to learned counsel
assisting, so I think there may be a change of heart from my
client in addressing or answering some of these questions.
COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that intelligence, Mr Hammond.
Mr Hall, would you continue?
MR HALL: Thank you, Commissioner.
(TO WITNESS): Now, Mr Ando, you've had an opportunity to
consider the evidence that you've given?
MR HAMMOND: And I'm happy for Mr Hall to ask any questions he
likes about the matters that were discussed in the
adjournment. I'll waive the privilege that attaches.
MR HALL: You had an opportunity to think about the answers
that you've given here today?---I did.
It is the case, is it not, that you knew that there were
numbers of white-tails at your father's - - ?---That's - -
premises?---That's correct. If I just take this opportunity.
I've been pretty afraid through this whole thing, both for me
and my family, for my - - for my father. I had some pretty
bad dealings when I was in wildlife, made a lot of friends and
had good relationships with them. I - - I had a lot of
threatening calls, was under an immense amount of stress.
Dealing with people in gaol for certain things, certain - -
had been charged under certain things. It wasn't my scene at
the time. My father got given white-tails from somebody, and
yes, he did swap those white-tails for the yellow-tails.
How many white-tails were there?---I - - I don't know totally,
I just know there was quite a few. Would've been probably
seven or eight.
And the idea was that they would be kept at your father's
premises for as short a time as possible?---That's right.
With a view to them then being collected by Mr Polglase and
sent to the eastern states?---That's correct.
Who delivered them to your father's premises?---They - - they
came from Peter Mancini. I don't know who they - - who
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dropped them off. It was arranged through friends of his and
I don't - - I've never met the man. I know of him. I've
never been to gaol to speak to him. There's a lot of people
and friends that I know that I don't know how they're
connected or whatever, and I don't get told too much. But I -
- I did get told that he had - - if you want to get yellowtails,
then he will supply the white-tails to swap them over.
MR HALL: All right. So these white-tails were kept at your
father's place, then - - ?---Yes, they were.
- - for some time and then they were collected by Richard
Polglase?---That's correct.
And you accept now, don't you, that those telephone calls
between you and Richard Polglase were you arranging for him to
collect them?---That's correct.
When he was talking about dummy permits, that was necessary to
do what?---Well, I don't know who he arranges dummy permits,
that's what I was trying to say before. People in licensing
do all the permits. How these people arrange their permits, I
don't really want to know, but I know that they've got large
collections of birds and they're able to cover numbers with -
- with their collection, so how he did his dummy permit, I'm
not 100 per cent sure.
Well, when you say "cover" it means that they can arrange for
the transfers of birds between them that are not necessarily
lawfully kept birds?---Whether they're lawfully kept or not,
dad didn't have them - - didn't keep them lawfully, I admit to
that.
Yes?---Okay. Where they came from, I'm not sure how many he
had or what the numbers were, but I'm assuming that he had
permits to keep white-tails. Like a lot of these people have
large numbers of black cockatoos.
Yes. Of course if you had permits to keep them, there would
be no need to use your father, would there?---No, they weren't
going to use my father, they were just giving them to my
father so my father could obtain the yellow-tails.
But you knew at the time that it was as it is now; unlawful to
export these out of the state?---Yes, I did. Although he had
a permit to do so. But I don't know - - that's what I'm
saying, I don't know how many he had on there.
All right. Now, in relation, then, to the yellow-tails, the
yellow-tails were to be effectively a payment back to your
father for doing this?---Yeah. Well, we were giving him
yellow - - white-tails in exchange for the two yellow-tails.
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MR HALL: All right. The yellow-tails coming from Victoria?--
-Yeah. I don't know where they came from.
All right. But that's what you were talking about on the
calls? There was to be a pair of those that your father was
to receive?---That's correct.
And that's - - they're the birds that you went to collect from
Richard Polglase?---That's correct.
Then why did Maurie Luke become involved?---Well, that's - -
dad had done quite a bit of work for Maurie and to stop that
connection between my father and other aviculturalists, that's
one thing I wanted to - - to stop - - I didn't really want a
total connection, so technically, I wanted the birds to go
from Richard Polglase to Maurie Luke, to be put into the shop,
to be put through the paperwork and then transfer from Maurie
to my father.
All right. But in fact they never went to Maurie Luke at
all?---No, they didn't.
And insofar as the paperwork suggested that the yellow-tails
that your father had got had come from Maurie Luke, that was
not true, was it - - -
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MR HALL: - - - that was not true, was it?---I don't even know
if that paperwork was done, because - -
Well, I can tell you?--- - - the only paperwork that was done
was I had told Maurie to put them on his returns.
Yes?---And I did the licence for my father.
Yes, but you told us that you checked to see whether Maurie
had done the paperwork and then contacted him to say, "Put a
return in"?---Yes. Correct.
So your intention was that Maurie would put a return in which
would provide a documented record that your father had
obtained these birds from Maurie Luke?---That's correct.
Whereas you in fact knew that he'd obtained them from Richard
Polglase?---Yes.
Did you look on the licensing database at CALM to see whether
Maurie Luke had - - ?---I seriously do not recall that.
Well, if I were to tell you that there are subsequent
telephone calls where you indicate that you have done so,
would you accept - - ?---Well, then obviously I would of. If
Maurie had said to Richard to check then I possibly would have
checked and - - and would have done it.
Can you tell me, Mr Ando, given that you were a wildlife
officer, given that you were charged with the responsibility
for protecting these birds that were being illegally exported,
why you did this?---The - - well, that never came - - the
source of the birds I was always under the impression were
legitimate off people's licence. The only thing that I may
have closed my eye to was the authority to transfer; to
distance my father from known aviculturalists. Because I did
not want him to come under scrutiny by anyone else, so if you
asked me, yes, I did do that to protect my father.
Well, it's something more than that, isn't it, because whether
they were lawfully kept or not - and I'll come back to that in
a moment - they couldn't be exported from Western Australia,
could they?---Yes, they can.
Well, except with a lawful permit?---With a permit, yes, and
that's why I thought Richard Polglase was arranging permits.
That's what we discussed.
Yes. But he was talking about dummy permits?---Well, I don't
know what permit he arranged, but he obviously - - he must
have done a permit. I'm assuming he's done a permit. That's
why - - and if that - - that's why I thought I'd disconnected
myself from that, my father got the yellow-tails, he got the
permit. What he does, that's his problem.
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MR HALL: It must have occurred to you that when he was
talking about dummy permits that there was at least a
possibility that these were wild-caught birds?---No. I think
the dummy permits - - I didn't think he wanted to transfer so
many birds in one hit. That's why, you know - - it's pretty
obvious to most wildlife officers if someone transfers eight
birds in one hit, that's quite a lot of birds. And I didn't
think - - I don't think he wanted to be detected in that way.
That's why I think he may have wanted to - - two dummy
permits instead of the one.
Right. Well, in those circumstances it must have occurred to
you that if this was - - if they were legitimate birds there'd
be no need to do it this way; to do it in two consignments?--
-I don't know what arrangement he had. The only thing - - one
thing I can remember is he said that he had other birds to
send to the eastern states, so how he did it I don't - - I'm
not sure.
You didn't report any of this activity to the people at CALM?-
--No, I didn't.
Even though you knew there was illegality going on?---The
illegality was the transfer from Peter Mancini to my father,
which I did not want anyone in the office to know about, and
that's pretty much - - and the transaction from Richard
Polglase to my father. I didn't want any - - any connections
to anyone to my father.
And your father keeping more birds than in fact he had a
licence for?---For a short time, yes.
Yes. Well, however long it was. Why did you never report
this activity to anyone at CALM?---Well, the people like - -
the people that have been mentioned, I used to investigate
into, and still do. They're people of interest both to CALM,
Customs and everyone. Whether there's evidence against them,
people of interest and actually doing something wrong is two
separate things. And, sure, people get charged all the time,
but it doesn't mean I know that they're involved in any
wildlife smuggling. It doesn't mean - - I don't go into that
sort of - - I don't want to know. All I was doing was looking
after my father - for my father's interest - that's all I was
doing. I didn't want to associate him to anybody. You know,
I've got friends from wildlife carers to aviculturalists to
wildlife park owners, and it's the same as everyone in our
office. They've got friends that deal in these things, and
we're interested in wildlife issues. My interest is birds
totally - - -
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WITNESS: - - - is birds totally and dealing with these people
I learnt a lot about wildlife.
MR HALL: You accept now, don't you, that you acted improperly
in the course of your - -?---I agree - - in relation to my
father, yes, I did act improperly. But it's - - seriously,
between me and you, is to protect my father from any scrutiny.
Well, in protecting your father it must have occurred to you
that you were helping Richard Polglase and perhaps Peter
Mancini unlawfully sending white-tails, a protected species in
Western Australia, to the eastern states?---That's where I
drew the line. To distance myself from getting involved in
exporting. I wanted Dad to have a pair of yellow-tails, pair
of white-tails, a pair of red-tails.
And in order to ensure that your Dad got those things, you
were prepared to turn a blind eye to things like dummy permits
being used?---Possibly.
Can you see how that compromised your position as a wildlife
officer?---Yes. I look at it now and, yes, I totally agree
with you.
Have you had a chance to re-consider the evidence you gave in
respect to Mr Green?---All the other - - I can - - all the
other evidence is - - is pretty much as it was. I seriously
don't remember everything that's happened. I seriously do not
remember that many calls and that many dealings. I've been
under some huge stress of late. Everything I did was for my
Dad. That's it. Everything I did was to protect him and
protect us from any association with anyone. Learning from
these people, Phil Green's and - - they're experienced birdkeepers.
I'd been told in the past from people in the office
not to deal with anyone but I thought well if they're my
friends they're my friends and I thought I could distance
myself from the work issue. Conflict of interest? Yes, I
agree with you, there obviously is a conflict there. But that
doesn't discount other people having friends and other people
having conflict but that's not for me to say.
Well, let me put this to you. When you spoke to Mr Green at
your father's house on the 11th of September this year can you
discount the possibility that you gave him the registration
number from the BCI check?---I don't remember getting the
registration number back. Okay. I do not recall getting the
registration number back. I don't know what registration Phil
has but I remember talking to him about receiving a report of
someone in the Moora area and I did tell him, "I've received a
report from someone in that - - in the Moora area."
Well, given that you can't recall receiving the BCI check
back, are you able to say with any certainty that you didn't
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pass that information onto him? That his registration number
had come back as that of the car seen in the area?---I don't
remember talking anything about the vehicle but he said, "I
was in the Moora area. It was probably me. Just don't worry
about it." And that's him protecting me to say, "Just - - the
less you know the better it - - better it is."
MR HALL: All right. But in telling you that, in giving you
that confirmation, "It was probably me", given the nature of
the information you'd received - -?---Yes.
- - the proper thing to do was to report that to your
superiors, wasn't it?---When he's - - well, not really because
I couldn't say that Mr Green came to my Dad's house and we had
a discussion about a vehicle seen in Moora. No. I didn't
want to do that.
You didn't want to do that because Phil was a friend?---That's
right. I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to
associate Phil, me and my father together with anyone in the
office.
Well, put all that to one side. Put aside that Phil was your
friend. Put aside that this was occurring at your father's
house. If this was some person of interest to CALM that was
telling you, "Yes, I am the person who was seen in the Moora
area with a ladder looking for nests", that's information that
it was your duty to pass on to your superiors, wasn't it?---If
I was in a work capacity and I - - and that's when I - - when
I did work with Rick I used to - - to mix - - I used to mix
with a lot of aviculturists and we used to receive a lot of
information and all that information - - -
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WITNESS: - - - and all that information was disseminated both
to Rick and to Customs. And, yes, I would have, in my work
capacity, if I was doing it back then when I was in SIU, yes,
I would have, 100 per cent.
MR HALL: If it hadn't been for your friendship and for your
father - - this occurring at your father's house, you would
have passed this information on?---If I was in my - - in work
capacity, yes.
Well, again, this was a circumstance in which your conflicting
loyalties impacted upon your duty?---This is post working in
the special investigations unit. But I was always friends
with Phil.
But that doesn't make a difference, does it, to your duty as a
wildlife officer?---I don't know. It's hard because of the
situation I was in.
I'd like to ask you similar questions in respect to the search
on the 16th of September. Now, we've heard evidence that on
the 16th of September Mr Plant told you that that search was
about to occur?---Yes. Yes.
Within moments of receiving that information, after passing it
on to Mr Dawson, you rang Mr Green. You left two messages and
then spoke to him personally?---I was satisfied that I'd given
the information, and I don't think it was going to make any
difference to any warrant at a later date. I was satisfied
that I advised both Rick and the chief wildlife officer, David
Mell. I thought, well, if he gets in trouble that's his own
problem, like it's happened in the past, and it's the same
thing. When his name come up I thought I'd give him a call.
But wasn't this a time - - given that his name had come up in
that context, he was about to be searched. This was a time
when you really should have been avoiding making contact with
Mr Green?---Possibly. Yes. But I'd made the call anyway.
The reason you were prompted to make the call was because
you'd been told this information about the search. You wanted
to pass that on somehow to Mr Green?---I didn't - - I
seriously didn't think it was going to make any difference at
all. I got told that within half an hour Phil Green's
residence was going to be raided. There was raids in New
South Wales, there was going to be raids in his house. I
don't think it would have made any difference at all to the
outcome of what happened to Mr Green.
So because you felt that it wouldn't make any difference you
thought there was no harm in telling him?---That's right. I
call - - as you've got conversations of it - - call the
Richard Polglases, the Norms the Phil Greens on a regular
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basis. I try not do it from work, but I do call them fairly
regularly.
MR HALL: Right. So when you rang him and said to "wish
Charlie a happy birthday today" - - ?---I seriously knew he
was going to go over east for a do.
Sure?---Okay. I seriously did. And that's all I said. He
said he was in the middle of something, so I basically laughed
knowing that what information I received from Malcolm Plant
was he was in the middle of a raid, then I laughed. So be it.
There's nothing I can do about it then, is there?
Of course there's nothing you can do about it because
unbeknownst to you the search is actually occurring, but what
I'm asking you is when you rang him your intention was to try
and convey to him - - ?---Not - - I don't think - -
- - that a search was about to occur?---No. I don't think so.
No.
Well, wasn't that what you were just saying to me a moment
ago? You didn't think - - ?---No. What I was saying to you I
was prompted - -
It wouldn't make a difference, you said?---Whether I called
him or not I wouldn't have made a difference, I wouldn't have
thought, so I called him anyway.
And said this about wishing Charlie a happy birthday "today"?-
--Well, wishing Charlie happy birthday. I tried to get a hold
of him, yes.
You were intending to convey to him that he needed to be
careful?---Well, not necessarily, no. Because Phil has been
in trouble before and so has everyone else, and that was me
trying to distance myself from issues. If they get in trouble
that's their problem, and they've told me that. Because, yes,
I am a junior officer in there. I've only been there 7 years.
I am one of the youngest in there, and there's people been
there a very long time. There's other issues that have arisen
in relation to investigations under other officers, and I
seriously was in some serious stress over work. And now I
think about it maybe I should have listened to my boss and
left when he told me to leave. He told me to leave 12 months
ago and I should have done it then, but I thought my friends
are my friends and that's it. But there was no conveying or
tipping off or anything like that.
You are suggesting to us that your judgment was impaired, are
you?---When I - - when I left SIU, yes. I - - I sought
counselling over numerous occasions. I had - - I had my wife,
who's pregnant, and a 3-year-old son, and I used to go home -
- -
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WITNESS: - - - I used to go home and think I don't really
need this pressure. We don't get paid enough to be put under
such pressure. The investigators side of it, I loved it. The
friends side of it - - I loved the wildlife side, I loved it,
but when it comes down to the crunch some of these things, I
prefer not to be involved in it at all. Some of the
activities that happened in the office, you know, I wish it
never came up but, you know, everybody has got friends who
deal with wildlife in our office. There's no doubt about it.
And I'm not the only one.
MR HALL: Did you become embittered?---Not totally. I still
did my job. If you go back to my record - - the amount of
work I used to do, especially in the last 12 months, is just -
- I used to come home happy saying to my wife, "I'm busting my
arse at work here." You know, I was getting breaches, I was
issuing cautions, I was flat out every single day; and I was
happy.
Well, as well as helping your father as best you could, you
also did look at the CALM computer, didn't you?---In relation
to what?
Well, you were prepared to look at the CALM computer and the
CALM documentation to make sure all the documentation was
correct?---Of - - for my father?
Yes?---Of course, but that's a standard - - it's a standard
thing. Like, the last thing I wanted was my father to have a
licence and there's no record of where these birds come from.
So, even if that record was not true you were prepared to
help?---Well, it wasn't meant to work out the way it did at
the end but the white-tails were legitimate, the red-tails
were legitimate. If you ask me now about the white-tails,
yes, we did receive white-tails. The last thing I wanted was
a transfer of eight white-tails from a Peter Mancini to my
father.
Yes. Well, I said I'd come back to that. You say the whitetails
were legitimate. It must have occurred to you that if
they were legitimate, if they were lawfully kept, there will
be no need to go through this convoluted process of
warehousing them at your father's - -?---It was to protect - -
- - moving them, sending - - wait. Sending them in two
consignments, having dummy permits. There would be no need
for all of that, would there?---There is because if you see a
Mr Ando associated to a Mr Green or a Mr Mancini it's not
going to look good on my - - on - - at work after being told
not to deal with anyone. And that's the honest truth. I did
not want my father associated with direct transfers from
aviculturists.
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MR HALL: Were you concerned about your own position, too?---
In times - - yeah, because I'd be questioned about that.
And you said it wouldn't look good at work if a Mr Ando was
associated with those people?---That's correct.
So, that would reflect on you, wouldn't it?---Yes.
You said you didn't intend for it to turn out the way it did
with the records?---Well, I didn't want to have to transfer
eight birds from Peter Mancini to my father and then my father
to Richard Polglase.
Well, what do you now know about what was done with the
records?---I don't know. All I - - I remember calling Maurie
to make sure that the yellow-tails be transferred and make
sure that his paperwork is up to date; and I didn't want
Maurie to get in trouble either because I knew my father had
done work for Maurie for white-tails, red-tails and he was
going to ongoing do work for him but I didn't want to put
Maurie out to have him supply all the birds to my father.
Do you not know that Maurie put in a return subsequently that
indicated that the birds that had been given to your father,
in fact, originated from Phil Green?---I'm not aware of that.
Doesn't that - - how does that - - returns normally show
transactions of birds in and birds out but it doesn't say that
the birds came from Phil Green to my father.
Well, it does to this extent?---Well, I'm not - -
If - - wait?---I'm not totally aware of that.
Wait. Wait. If Mr Luke didn't have any yellow-tails at one
point in time, receives them from Mr Green and then transfers
them to Mr Oreste Ando, that's the only place they could have
come from, isn't it?---No. The birds came from Richard
Polglase though.
I know?---But they should have - - if you ask down to the
letter of the law, the birds should have been transferred from
Richard Polglase to Maurie Luke, from Maurie Luke to my
father.
Yes; and that's what you didn't want to happen?---No. That's
what I wanted to happen. I wanted the birds to go through
Maurie to my father.
I see, but - - I'm sorry, you didn't want them to show that
they had come from Richard - -?- --They'd come straight from -
- to my father. That's correct.
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MR HALL: Yes.
(TO COMMISSIONER): Commissioner, I had a very large amount of
further material but there is little point in playing some of
that material - - -
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MR HALL: - - - some of that material, but it may be
appropriate for it to be reviewed to see whether it should be
put in the public forum. That is, by way of tendering it.
COMMISSIONER: So what do you have in mind, Mr Hall?
MR HALL: I have in mind, Commissioner, that we take a break
so that I can review the balance of the material to see
whether any further of it should be tendered as exhibits in
these proceedings.
COMMISSIONER: Will 20 minutes be adequate?
MR HALL: It would. Can I say at this point I would seek to
tender 219, which was played before the previous break.
COMMISSIONER: 34.
EXHIBIT KO34 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
Barcode 219
MR HALL: And, Commissioner, I'm reminded that some of the
earlier exhibits with the KO numbers were tendered at the
private hearing, and whilst you've lifted the restriction on
those private hearings, perhaps for the sake of completeness,
that you should indicate that those exhibits are also public
exhibits.
COMMISSIONER: Yes. Having lifted the restrictions on
publication of all that occurred in the private hearings, of
which I have done in the course of the day, it in my view then
follows that the exhibits tendered in the private hearings are
now in the public arena, as it were, and in fact the numbering
of exhibits follows on uninterrupted. We'll adjourn for 20
minutes.
HEARING ADJOURNED AT 3.17 PM
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HEARING RESUMED AT 3.35 PM
COMMISSIONER: Well now, where are we now, Mr Hall?
MR HALL: Yes, Commissioner. I find that it is necessary to
play Mr Ando some further material, notwithstanding the
answers he's given. But before doing so, I would like to go
back to the issue of the search on the morning of the 16th.
(TO WITNESS): In that regard, Mr Ando, I want to understand
exactly what you are saying. You accept, as I understand it,
that it was unwise in the circumstances for you to call Mr
Green when you had just been told by Mr Plant that a search
warrant was to be executed; is that right?---I didn't think it
- - not - - I didn't think it was unwise, but looking back at
it now, yes, it does look unwise. But I didn't know I was
going to be raided on the 16th, did I?
Well, you didn't know beforehand, but you knew when Mr Plant
told you?---That he was going to be raided?
Yes?---Yes.
And in that circumstance, it was not a wise thing to do, for
you to ring Mr Green for any reason?---Just - - people's names
come up all the time, it just gives me a - - I don't know,
just refreshes my memory to make - - give someone a phone
call.
Well, Mr Ando, I know you are not a stupid man, I know you are
an experienced wildlife officer; put yourself back on the
morning of the 16th of September for a moment. You have just
received advice from Mr Plant that your friend, Phil Green, is
about to be the subject in a short time of a search warrant?--
-Yes.
Now, it's not simply his name being mentioned and, "Oh, I must
contact Phil - -"?---If I wanted to call Phil and tell him
there was a raid, I would've said, "Phil, you are going to be
raided" and I would've left a message on his mobile phone.
The first time.
Well, that depends on how sophisticated you are?---I'm not
very - - I'm not sophisticated at all. Everything - - like I
said before, everything I've done is for my father. My house,
I'm in debt, I don't make millions of dollars out of wildlife.
Everything I did was for my father to get some birds.
There's no clandestine anything. There's no sophistication.
I don't know what their involvement is with smuggling, if
there is anything involved in that, because I don't want to
know.
The best thing for you to do - if that's true - the best thing
for you to do in that circumstance would be to have avoided
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 222
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calling Phil at all for any reason?---Well, looking back at it
now, yes, but at the time I obviously didn't think that.
MR HALL: Can I ask you to listen again to exhibit KO20 which
is T199.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Do you notice how you stress the word "today" in
that call?---Yeah, possibly, but you can tell by the tone of
my voice, it goes up and down all the time.
But you stress the word "today", don't you?---It's - - I
seriously do not recall that - - that day there was a very
stressful day for me, as you can understand.
This is very early in the morning, though. This is 8.23.
This is within moments of you being given the information
about this search?---But like I said, I satisfied myself, I
told my supervisors. I advised them they were going to be
raided. If I didn't want Phil Green to know, then I wouldn't
of said anything to anybody. Now, that call, Phil Green had
just wanted me to call him. I don't know why I called him.
Looking back at it now, obviously it looks very stupid, but I
don't know why. I knew he was going away but if I was going
to say there's a raid, I would've said there was a raid.
Well, he wasn't going away that day; how could he have wished
- - ?---He - - he goes away - -
- - Charlie a happy birthday "today"?---To give - - obviously
to give Charlie - - I don't - - I seriously don't know. I
seriously do not know.
You can see, can't you - - -
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MR HALL: - - - can see, can't you, Mr Ando, that this looks
rather like you are trying to tip Mr Green off?---I've never
tipped him off before and I don't see why I would tip him off
this time. There was no - - there was no point. I got told
that Phil Green is about to be raided. That's what I got
told.
Yes?---I spent time - - I rang - - I rang Rick Dawson. I went
into the office, spoke to Dave Mell. I told Dave Mell. And
then I went and rang Phil.
But he was being raided "today". He was being raided that
day?---That's correct.
Yes. But you thought he was travelling over east, but not
that day?---He goes - - that's the thing. He goes fairly
regularly on - - he drives a truck, and trying to get a hold
of him is pretty difficult.
Well, you're not - - ?---I don't know why - - I don't know why
I did it. I seriously do not know why.
You're not seriously maintaining to us, are you, that you were
trying to pass on a happy birthday message to Charlie
Sultana?---I knew he was going to a do to see Charlie, so
that's what I left - - that's the only message I left on the
phone.
COMMISSIONER: Hang on a moment. Mr Hall, will you trace for
me the three calls and their time line?
MR HALL: Yes, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: One - - there's - - the first call is at 8.23.
MR HALL: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER: And that's the one to the voicemail.
MR HALL: Yes.
COMMISSIONER: Now, what's the exhibit number for the next
one?
MR HALL: KO21.
COMMISSIONER: Are you in a position to play that?
MR HALL: Yes, I am. It's T200. It's very faint, I think,
and we might need to turn the volume up.
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 224
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MR HALL: This is 1 minute later, Commissioner, at 8.24.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Could you now play the land line?
MR HALL: It's KO7, 180 barcode.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
COMMISSIONER: There are three calls there, Mr Ando, within a
period of 3 minutes?---That's correct.
All designed to, as you say, convey a message to a Mr Sultana
of happy birthday?---Yes.
Do you seriously maintain to this Commission that those calls
did not have any significance by way of a warning?---There was
- - there's never been any code or anything. Looking at it
now it makes it fairly obvious that that's what it looks like,
but all I can remember is being told about Phil, thinking
about him, so I'll give him a call. There's nothing in my
mind to say, "Shit. You're being raided," or something. I
would have done that in the first instance on the mobile. I
wanted to speak to him face to face. I don't know why I did
it but I did it, and then halfway through he cut me off, and I
knew what was going on. I laughed. It was fairly obvious
that he was being raided and I just left it as that. And
that's basically what I did. And I thought, well, that's his
problem, not my problem. I had nothing to do with his raid or
whatever was happening, you know. If he got himself into
trouble that's his problem.
But just going back one step to when your mind says, "I'm
going to ring Phil," what are you going to ring Phil for?---I
seriously don't - - I don't know. If someone mentions someone
to me - - -
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WITNESS: - - - someone to me I might pick up the phone and
ring them straight away because I hadn't spoken to them for a
while. But I knew he was going away. I knew he wasn't going
to be too happy about being raided. Obviously we were going to
discuss it at a later date but there's nothing I can do about
it because it was nothing to do with me. He is a friend and
he would have said, "Yeah. Well, I got raided today", and so
be it. But there's not much else I can really say about it.
COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Hall.
MR HALL: You are conceding though that what prompted you to
ring Phil Green was this call from Mr Plant?---His name popped
in my head and I thought well this is the best time to give
him a call. He's in the middle of a raid. Then there's not
much I can do to help him out.
So, prior to that popping into your head you had had no
intention of calling with this message about Charlie's
birthday?---It was - - it was on my mind obviously because he
told me - - I don't know when he told me. It was always on my
mind but for me to catch up with people and talk to people is
very difficult because I like to get home straight away so - -
I've got a lot of friends and the only way I can do it is to
give them a call and if - - if his name's come up then I might
give him a call.
But it wasn't anything that prior to that time - - prior to
receiving the call from Mr Plant it wasn't something that - -
?---Not that morning. No.
- - figured prominently in your mind such that you'd made any
attempt to call Mr Green about it before?---I don't know. I
obviously thought about it, yes, but when I don't know.
See, if you were really anxious to call - - to pass on a
message to Mr Sultana about his birthday you could have called
him yourself, couldn't you?---Well, I'm not going to pay for
an over - - an eastern states call. I can't afford to pay for
those sort of calls.
What? Just to say, "Have a happy birthday."?---My wife would
kill me if she saw that on my - - on the phone bill.
So, this was important enough to make three calls within 3
minutes - -?---I obviously wanted to tell him. I don't know.
I've got Messagebank - - goes on whenever it wants to. You
might get a message that was 2 weeks ago. You don't always
listen to your Messagebank.
But that was the first thing you asked when you eventually got
through. "Did you get my message on your mobile?"?---Yeah,
about - - about Charlie - - wishing Charlie a happy birthday.
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And then he cut me off because he said he was the middle of
something and I knew what he was in the middle of.
MR HALL: You knew he was in the middle of - - it was still
fresh in your mind?---That's right.
Yeah. It was fresh in your mind because - -?---Malcolm Plant
had rang me.
- - that's, in fact, what you wanted to talk to him about?---
No. It wasn't what I - - that's the last thing I'd talk to -
-
Whether it was - -?--- - - to him about on the phone.
Whether it was a pre-arranged code or not your intention was
to pass on to him a warning?---No. It wasn't. You're trying
to put words in my mouth. It's a bit unfair. How many times
can I get asked about the same thing? I come clean with
everything that I wanted to do. All I wanted to do was
protect my father. I don't really care about anyone else. If
they get in trouble that's their problem. If I get - - I'm in
trouble and I'll cop it on the chin but - -
There was nothing at all suspicious about you wanting to wish
Charlie Sultana a happy birthday, I assume?---What do you mean
suspicious?
Well, there'd be nothing suspicious about that, is there, from
your perspective?---No.
You're saying that it's just a, "Wish him happy birthday."
Why did you make the call from outside?---Because the last
thing I want anyone to know is that I'm calling Phil Green. I
used my mobile outside. I don't talk inside.
Because it is inherently suspicious that you would be calling
Phil Green and you knew that?---We went through this before.
All my - - most of my phone calls have been outside or from
home. The last thing I'd do is introduce that sort of - -
those sort of people in the office. We share offices. We
don't have our own private office. Some people have the
luxury of having a door, they can close the door and talk to
whoever they want to. I don't have that luxury.
You see, but the first call you made - - who would know that
you were calling Phil Green. All you said was, "How are you
going, mate? I'm just ringing up to make sure you wish
Charlie a happy birthday today."?---I didn't know how long the
phone call was going to go for. I didn't know who was being -
- like, half way through he cut me off. I could have been on
the phone for ages.
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COMMISSIONER: But you knew he was being raided?---Well, there
and then, yes, because he told me he's in the middle of
something and I obviously got advised by Malcolm Plant that he
was going to be raided within half an hour. Whether I was
going to say anything to him or what - - wasn't going to
change anything.
MR HALL: So, you just put two and two together and realised
that because he was being cagey, because he said he was in the
midst of having a good day actually, and that sounded
sarcastic, that the raid must have started?---Yes.
Commissioner, I don't intend to take this matter any further.
COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you.
MR HALL: I think Mr Ando has been given every fair
opportunity to provide an explanation.
(TO WITNESS): Mr Ando, I want to play you some further calls
in respect of your dealings with Mr Polglase. Can I ask you
listen to this call, 224, a call on the 29th of July 2004?
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AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: Now, Mr Ando, you said that you hadn't seen these
birds, when I asked you how many were there?---I don't - - I
don't think I said that.
Yeah, I asked you how many were there and you said you thought
there were about nine, but you hadn't - - ?---That's - -
- - actually seen them?---Dad - - I obviously see them.
You obviously did, because you had a look at them?---Yes.
And in fact you were able to say that there were a certain
number of pairs?---I do, yes.
In respect of whether - - you see that Mr Polglase says, "Does
he" - I assume means your father - "want any more yellows
after that?" That's about half-way down the second page?---
Yeah.
Yes:
"I'm not sure, mate. What, do they want to do more, do they?"
"What" - sorry - "do they want to do more, do they?"
"He said they'll breed some this year, you know, like
he breeds them every year?" "Yep." "And he said we
can send any if he wants to do it again, we can send
him a young hand-raised pair or he said, if you know,
older stuff from the scrub."
Do you see that?---Where's that older stuff from the scrub?
Second page - -
"Or, you know, older stuff from the scrub"?---Yeah, I don't
know where he sources his birds from.
Well, he's telling you?---Well, then - - yeah, well, but I
didn't know that. When we got the white-tails - -
Well, you do now?--- - - he told me that they're legitimate.
You did at this point?---Yeah, but they're not from WA. Yeah,
I don't - - well, I don't want to lie - -
I'm sorry, it's not the yellow-tails that are coming from
Victoria he's talking about and he said, "We can send any. If
he wants to do it again, we can send him a young hand-raised
pair" or he said, "Or, you know, older stuff from the scrub."
This is the stuff going that way?---No, older stuff - -
To Victoria?--- - - yellows. He's talking about, "Yeah, yeah,
does he want any more yellows after that?"
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MR HALL: Yeah?---Yeah.
That's your father?---That's my father, yes.
Yep?---"He said they'll breed some this year, you know, like
he breeds them every year", yeah.
Yeah?---And he said, "Can send any, if he wants to do it
again, we'll send him a young hand-raised pair", so send him a
young hand-raised pair of white - - of yellow-tails - - -
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WITNESS: - - - hand-raised pair of white - - of yellow-tails
to my father.
MR HALL: Look, whichever way you view it, and I'd suggest to
you it's going the other way, but whichever way you view it,
here's Polglase telling you that some older stuff is being
taken from the scrub?---Older stuff from the scrub. Yeah.
Well, I can't deny that that's what was said there.
Well, you told me a while ago that you were in the belief that
the birds that were being dealt with were legitimate birds?---
I didn't know - -
Captive raised birds?---I don't know where Richard Polglase
gets his birds from.
Well, he's telling you - - ?---I obviously said - - yeah,
well, that's just one sentences in a million sentences that
have been said to me. I can't remember everything that's - -
like, that gets told you. Like - -
You see, even if it hadn't occurred to you before now that all
of this surreptitious means of sending these birds,
warehousing them, sending them by consignment, using dummy
permits indicated to you that wild birds were being taken,
here it was, plain as day?---I'm not denying anything. I
don't know where Richard Polglase gets his birds. I didn't
know. All I know is that we were going to swap white-tails
for yellow-tails. He talks about ones that are bred and the
rest of it, and I just thought as long as he's got his pair
now, because there was an urgency. There was a fair few days
had transpired that dad was keeping these birds, right. I
wanted the yellow-tails in and I wanted those birds out. I
didn't want them at dad's place. They were illegal - -
illegally kept there because he didn't have a permit for that
amount. I admit to that. And we didn't do any other
transactions, but we didn't have - - we don't even have room
for any more yellow-tails. So I was just going, "Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Yeah. Right."
How could you continue to labour under the belief that these
birds involved in these transactions were all legitimate birds
when Polglase himself was saying to you, "older stuff from the
scrub"?---I didn't know that in the initial transaction.
Well, even if that's so, you know it now. You know it at this
point in time. What did you do about it?---Obviously I did
nothing about it.
Couldn't possibly be legal to be sourcing older stuff from the
scrub, could it?---I think I've already admitted to many
illegal things that have already happened. I was just
obviously shrugging him off.
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MR HALL: You just - - ?---The last - -
You just weren't interested; you just didn't want to know
where he was getting the birds from, did you?---No. I didn't
want to know where he was getting the birds from.
Because you suspected that in fact they were coming from
illegal sources?---Not - - no. I - - all I wanted him was to
get the birds. I didn't care when they come from and how they
got them. As long as he arranged the permits and everything
was on the paper - - the paperwork was done.
Yep. So long as the paperwork was all straight - - ?---For my
father, yes.
- - it didn't matter to you where these birds had come from?--
-I didn't want - -
Whether they'd come from the scrub or not?---I didn't want to
know how he sourced his birds and who he got them from. He
obviously - - like, unless he physically went there - - I
didn't go to the scrub and get the birds. I didn't even know
the birds were from the scrub. The first ones he said were
legitimate, and he talked about a Gippsland yellow-tail. I
don't even - - like, I've said it before, yeah, okay; I agree
with you. I'm reading this now and obviously I said what I've
said there, but we've had a lot of conversations together and
I was just saying, "Yeah. No worries." As long as the
transaction is done for those two yellow-tails and the
paperwork was there, my father had a licence, I was satisfied.
That's all I cared about.
Mr Commissioner I tender 224.
COMMISSIONER: 224. KO35.
EXHIBIT KO35 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 224
MR HALL: We'll move on now to the 30th of July, and listen to
233, please.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Charlie Sultana wanted another white-tail?---By the
sounds of it, yes.
Because of the two that had been sent to him previously, one
had died?---I believe so.
And you were trying to locate a white-tail - - ?---Yes.
- - in order to send to him?---Yep.
You rang your father about it, but of course, he didn't have a
white-tail that could be sent?---That's right.
So you were going to ring Phil about it?---Yep.
You were going to try and source a white-tail so that it could
be sent to Charlie?---I was going to go to someone else that
had unlicensed ?
birds and they could sell them. That's why
Norm come up.
Well, this is extraordinary behaviour for a wildlife officer,
isn't it?---Well, because they asked us if we had any - - any
more white-tails and we didn't want to get rid of the three
that dad had. We'd already done a transaction for two yellowtails.
Right?---And that was it.
So your conduct, really, is extending beyond protecting your
father for having illegal white-tails, this is going to the
step where you're in fact helping Charlie Sultana find one in
- - ?---Well - -
- - Western Australia?--- - - dad got birds from Peter
Mancini, right, so he had stock tail - - a stock of birds
there. Now, we used the stock extra on top of dad's three, to
swap for the yellow-tails, so he was asking for white-tails.
That's why they asked me to get one because they knew that we
- - well, obviously knew that we had Peter's birds. Or that
we had extra birds.
They knew that you would be a person who could source a whitetail
for them, or believed you could?---They - - they all know
each other, those people. That's why dad said tell Norm to
give it to them.
Well, why didn't you just say, "Sort it out for yourselves.
Why do I have to get involved"?---Well, that's what dad said
to me. "Tell Norm."
Yeah, but why were you getting involved, then?---Because
they'd asked me and dad didn't have any more.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 233
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MR HALL: Well, you didn't just leave it at that, though. You
were going to ring Phil Green?---To tell him that we didn't
have any extra birds.
Do you know who Charlie sold the white-tails to?---No.
I tender 233.
COMMISSIONER: KO36.
EXHIBIT KO36 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
Barcode 233
MR HALL: Might we move forward now to the 9th of August and
listen to 239.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: So, you were questioned as to whether you had a
relationship with Richard Polglase?---Yes.
By?---Phil Green.
Sorry?---Phil Green.
And why were you concerned to conceal that?---Because Phil
doesn't like Richard Polglase.
All right?---And he basically told me off. He said, "You
shouldn't deal with him", dah dah dah dah dah. "You should
make Maurie do that." So, I just thought well - - better of
it and then I just agreed with him and that was it.
You didn't want to - -?---Upset.
- - poison your relationship with Phil Green?---Oh, not poison
it. I just didn't really - - I told him, "Really, it's none
of your business where I got it from", but I wanted to make
sure that, you know, Dad still got, you know, the birds and
that they were all licensed and legitimate.
Yes. I tender that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO37.
EXHIBIT KO37 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 239
MR HALL: 243.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: You're there talking about the yellow-tails that - -
?---That's - -
- - your father has received?---That's correct.
So, the yellow-tails having been received, the white-tails
having gone off, that should be an end of it as far as you're
concerned, shouldn't it?---I don't know. Possibly. Yeah. I
think I wanted Dad to get a pair of gang-gangs.
So, you mean having gone through all this you were going to go
on and help your father get some more birds through Mr
Polglase?---Possibly, but that never really eventuated -
whether I was going to do that or not - but Dad wanted a pair
of gang-gangs for the last cage. We got four cages. He's got
a cage of yellows; cage of reds; cage of whites; and one cage
to put a pair of gang-gangs in - or a collectus ? or whatever -
but just one more cage to fill.
23.11.04 A.G. ANDO XN 235
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MR HALL: Right. Were you going to send some more white-tails
over to get these gang-gangs?---I don't know. I don't know.
You don't know?---No.
Haven't thought that far?---Obviously - - I was obviously
going to do that because we discussed it. I can't remember
what we were going to do but Richard said, "If you do the same
deal, or whatever, we'll get some gang-gangs for your Dad."
COMMISSIONER: Do gang-gangs only come from the east?---Yes.
MR HALL: Yes.
(TO WITNESS): Very valuable parrots, aren't they?---Oh,
they're just, yeah, same price as most of the black cockies.
Which is - -?---They do vary.
Yes, but it's in the thousands, even within Australia?---Oh,
yeah, 1300 each.
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MR HALL: Yes. Commissioner, I tender - -
COMMISSIONER: That will be KO38.
EXHIBIT KO38 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 243
MR HALL: 245.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: On the second page of that transcript you say, "At
the end of the day, the paperwork, I've done it but used
Maurie's name." What did you do?---I told licensing that the
yellow-tails came from Maurie Luke, so the paperwork for my
father for that day - the day he had them - I wanted to make
sure he had a permit. So I said dad is getting the two
yellow-tails from Maurie Luke.
Right?---Okay. So then I was going to tell Maurie. And at
the time I was a bit upset because I'd been told off,
whatever, and I thought, well, they're dad's birds, and then
at the end of the day, you know, anyone can be friends and
anyone can be enemies with people, so it's only people's
opinions.
But you told licensing that your father had got these two
yellow-tails, to put it on his licence, even though no
paperwork had in fact come through from Maurie Luke?---It
doesn't matter. My dad needs to have a licence. If someone
gets a bird they need to be licensed straight away, so whether
someone else has done whatever, I ensured my father had a
licence for those birds on his premises on that date.
And you used Maurie's name - - ?---Well, I just said to them
that they got them from Maurie, but they don't - - they don't
put anything like that down - - -
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WITNESS: - - - put anything like that down. So it's up to
Maurie to put it in his returns, and he doesn't have to do
that till the end of the month.
MR HALL: All right, but you did that, spoke to licensing and
said that, knowing full well that he got them in fact from
Richard Polglase?---Yes.
All right. I tender 245.
COMMISSIONER: KO39.
EXHIBIT KO39 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
Barcode 245
MR HALL: I have only three more, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: All right. All right; 247.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
MR HALL: I take it that you were saying that you'd "hate to
see the day, you know, when they go to check it", because you
knew that this paper trail was false?---No.
The paper trail was false?---No, not for the red-tail and the
white-tails. My father bought - - my father got the whitetails
from Maurie and the red-tails from Maurie, right? Now,
I had a - -
But for the yellow-tails, it's false?---Sorry?
For the yellow-tails, the paper trail was false?---Well,
technically, yeah. Initially, dad was meant to get yellowtails
from Maurie, but that didn't happen. We've already
discussed that. They came - -
Yeah, yes, we've already - - ?--- - - from Richard Polglase.
- - discussed that, and that's why - - ?---But - -
- - you were - - you'd hate to see the day when they would go
and check it?---That's right.
It's not difficult, Mr Ando?---I know, but I'm trying to put -
-
Just concentrate - - ?--- - - extra things in there that I
don't think - - you know, like some of the stuff was done
properly and, yes, I do agree to the things that were done
wrong with the yellow-tail.
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MR HALL: You knew that if someone did, from CALM, ever went
and checked it, that you would be at risk?---I was concerned.
My father had a permit, I checked the returns and the - -
there was no returns in the book at one - - in the file at one
stage. Then all of a sudden popped up a whole heap of
photocopies, so I sort of thought, well maybe someone's
checked them or he's handed them in late. Bird dealers do
forget to do the returns quite often, but I thought in this
circumstance my father needs to have his permit up to date and
the paper trail should be there, so yes, I did tell Maurie to
make sure that the birds he got from him are on the - - on his
returns. And including the yellow-tails which I got from
Richard Polglase, which were meant to go to Maurie.
That is tendered, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: 40.
EXHIBIT KO40 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
Barcode KO40
MR HALL: 248.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: Why were you trying to get Maurie to cover whites -
- white-tails in as late as August?---It wasn't white-tails in
August. I think it was the red-tails.
Well - -?---The white-tails were on the 3rd of July 2003.
Well, if you're asking him to do that - -?---And he'd already
done it because I didn't see a return on that. So then I - -
Right?---Because I haven't seen any returns. And then I asked
him about the red-tails and I'd actually gone to the computer
and had a look when the - - sorry, you can't do that. Went to
Dad's hard copies, had a look when his first transaction was,
to make sure the date he received those birds - -
Yes?--- - - is the actual date that are put on the returns.
Yes?---And I forgot to look at the red-tails and yellow-tails.
So, I thought as long as they're on the return it doesn't
matter, Dad is licensed to keep them. So, he got the licence
- - when Dad got the birds he got the licence for them.
So, again you were chasing up Maurie Luke to put in the
returns that would establish the birds that were licensed to
your father were supported by - -?---They - - they came - -
- - these returns?---Well, they came from Maurie. The whitetails
- -
Yes?---And the red-tails came from Maurie.
But you were chasing Maurie Luke up to make sure that he put
in the right paperwork?---He puts them in there. That's
right.
In order to provide that paper trail for your father?---Well,
yeah, that's - - that's the - - the proper way to do it. Even
to cover Maurie. To make sure that he's put them in his
returns, too.
All right. I tender that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO41.
EXHIBIT KO41 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape 248
MR HALL: Finally, 249.
AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO HEARING
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MR HALL: There's nothing else of any relevance in this
particular call, Commissioner.
(TO WITNESS): There's a reference there to gangies; that's
gang-gang - - ?---That's correct.
- - cockatoos. Your father wanted to get some of those
through Richard Polglase?---Eventually. Or wherever.
Yes?---Richard's just, you know, saying, you know, he can get
them, but at the end of the day we could have got them through
Maurie or wherever. I just didn't want any more - - he - - he
just wanted them, put it that way.
I tender that, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: KO42.
EXHIBIT KO42 Mr Hall DATE (Unstated)
Audio tape
COMMISSIONER: Is that sufficient unto the day?
MR HALL: It is, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: All right. We'll adjourn again until tomorrow
morning, and Mr Ando will be here at 10.00 for the examination
to continue. We'll adjourn till 10.00 tomorrow.
WITNESS WITHDREW
HEARING ADJOURNED UNTIL 10 AM
WEDNESDAY, 24TH NOVEMBER 2004
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