Movement 111

Afghanistan and they've invited us to support them."'
The US currently has sanctions against Cuba because
it's Communist and undemocratic, but Saudi and
Kuwait have no democracy at all. lt is nothing to do
with justice, international law or human rights, but
makes sense when you factor in oil and the naked
war for resources. Humanity as a species must reach
a point where we can step beyond personal or
national interest. With the state of military
technolos/, if we don't the human race will end. I
can't think that's sensible - that's not in your interest,
or mine.'
However, Benn is a feryent internationalist. He
draws a distinction between globalisation and
internationalism. The lMF, NATO, the World Bank and
so on. are concerned with the former - the free
movement of capital, the restriction of labour and the
control of the world by money. lntemationalism is
about the common interest everyone in the world has
in peace, justice and democracy.
The UN is, on paper, an intemationalist organisation.
Every country sends their delegates, many ftom
democratically elected govemments, to the General
Assembly. lt has a foundational Charter and is
probably more democratic than our 1832 Parliament
where working people were un-represented. Benn
contends that there is much scope for reform, but the
UN is the best hope at the moment. lts organs are all
about development for the benefit of the ordinary
person - the Charter, the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights, the World Heath Organisation, agricultuml
organisations, UNESCO. The UN represents a
pledge from a previous generation to succeeding
ones, that is severely threatened by cunent US
policy. Bush talks of 'full spectrum dominance', the
'axis of evil powers', pours money into Star Wars
technologr. These are an attempt to dominate the
world from Washinglton, which is a threat to peace.
Washington in tum disregards the UN as it is a threat
to its empire.
Benn believes $obalisation is already breaking
down. Enron is the biggest bankruptcy in history, the
Japanese economy is in a state of collapse, Argentina
has recently had five presidents in 12 days because
the peso was linked to the dollar and therefore they
lost control of their economy. Benn remembers the
Depression of the 1930s and fears what extreme
times lead people to do to protect themselves.
Unless we deal with the underlying problems, the
theory that $obalisation will work is the most
idealistic of all.
Benn is at his most animated now. Earlier I was
having a convercation, perhaps with a lecturer. Now
I'm feeling the full force of a passionate campaigner.
'We have abolished the human being and created the
consumer. lfyou have no money you can't consume
so you don't count. The people who need things most
don't get what they need. lf you build a world on profit
instead of on need then you will have wide disparity
of weatth and poverty.' A lot of people, particularly
younger people, see they must do something -
protest at Seattle, Genoa and so on. lt's only a start
but it is a $obal movement for some form of
democratic control.
I suggest that Communism was an attempt to
structure the world around need, but that no-one
could reasonably defend it. Benn agrees, but says
the fatal weakness was that Communism wasn't
democratic. When Communism collapsed what
happened in Russia? Disaster. Look at Apartheid, a
non-democratic, capitalist system. lt collapsed.
Turmoil has followed.
Democracy is the most controversial idea,
especially for people in power. Religions are antidemocratic
- the Pope doesn't want it, he wants to
appoint cardinals himself. The mullahs aren't elected
in lran. Society doesn't elect heads of multi-nationals
or media moguls. Democracy is the most controversial
idea in the world. lf you have democracy people
will vote for policies that meet their needs. The
mayoral election in London was instructive - Livingstone
was denied the Labour ticket by the party
hierarchy, stood as an independent on a popular
platform, won hands down and arguably has been
hindered by the government ever since. Likewise the
UK should be able to elect a head of state. Benn
dismisses my claim that an unelected and therefore
non-partisan monarch is preferable to George Bush,
saying if a titular head of state is prefened they can
still be elected. ln passing he accuses me of deepseated
anti-democratic tendencies!
The discussion has been broad, but this is supposedly
a Christian magazine and it's about time I asked
something vaguely religious, so I slip in an innocuous
little question. As a supporter of disestablishment,
what role does Benn think is appropriate for
organised reli$on in our modern sociegp
'lf I advocated the nationalisation of the Roman
Catholic, Jewish and Muslim faiths, so that the Prime
Minister would appoint their leaders, you would think
I was mad and quite properly so. Henry Vlll nationalised
the Church of En$and because the Pope
raised more money in tithes than the king got in
taxation, and because he wanted a divorce. So it was
nationalised, the monarch is the head of the Church
of En$and and consequently a British Prime Minister,
who could be a Muslim, appoints the head of the
An$ican community. The fact the Church of En$and
doesn't want to be free is most interesting. The
bishops are in the House of Lords and have position
and status. Disestablishment will come, the appointment
of Carey's successor will move it forward and it
will happen, and the Church of En$and Wll have to
re-establish itself.'
So even the supplementary question boils down to
power politics. The man is driven! I felt like a pupil in
a tutorial. Writing up the interview I can think of many
questions I should have asked, but Benn was so
entertaining, so reasonable and pleasant that I just
sat back and enjoyed his company. His incidence is
old - the clothes, the pipe, the clutter. But his
essence is young - the ener$/, the ideas, the need to
still be involved. lt is a lovely conjunction. He is so in
command of himself and his subject, indeed he is so
charismatic, that it is dfficult not to be swept along
by his enthusiasm. lt nags at me that if this man is so
reasonable, his ideas so decent, so attractive, why
then have we not paid more heed? Has he been a
voice crying in the wildem""r"
,1t_
Julian lswis
interview
Benn is a
fervent
internationalist
who draws
a distinction
between
globalisation
and
internationalism
Democracy
is the most
controversial
idea in the
world. lf you
have democracy
people will vote
for policies
that meet
their needs
movementl13