Odds and Ends Essays, Blogs, Internet Discussions, Interviews and Miscellany

In the list you give Carol Anne Duffy and Simon Armitage aren’t avant-garde poets. The others could or not be
“learnèd”. What does that word mean anyway in this day and age? The point is that avant-garde poets who work in
academia (whether they are learnèd or not) have influence and prestige in avant-garde publishing, conferencing and
networking circles, which is helpful to them and any of their students whom they choose to promote.
Peter Riley
Surely what you say about avant-garde poets and their relation to the academy is the same as for any other kind of
poet. Of course creative writing tutors promote, as far as they are able, what they think are brilliant students. Before
C W [creative writing] it was done through personal extra-mural contacts, and still is. If there is a problem, it is the
same problem for non-avant-garde poets.
Some avant-garde practices were invented within universities and have never been anywhere else. Some avantgarde
poets claim to scorn the success which is attained through networking, conferences and all that, as a model of a
corrupt society. Possibly some non-avant-garde poets do too.
Thanks for clarifying the issue. I missed some earlier contributions, including Tim’s essay. Not being an A-G [avantgarde]
poet I have little to say.
David Lace
Peter, I agree, the problem does exist within mainstream academic poetry circles but according to the original
Argotist piece [the feature about academic poetry at The Argotist Online] about the issue, the problem manifests itself
more concertedly and is more organised than any individual academic mainstream poetry tutor giving a helping
hand to one or two of his/her promising students.
I think Jeffrey earlier alluded to it being something along these lines, rather than the haphazard way it operates in
non-avant-garde academic poetry circles.
Another thing that the Argotist piece seems to be saying is that this problem is not one that is associated with avantgarde
poetry per se, but is connected to avant-garde poetry as it manifests itself and is taught and promoted in
academia. So I don’t think the Argotist piece is anti-avant-garde poetry in principle.
Tim is an avant-garde poet and he too is critical of the situation, as are his friends (who might also be avant-garde
poets), as he said earlier: ‘I have friends who privately agree with me but who for understandable reasons prefer not
to debate it’. Presumably they prefer not to debate it because they feel that doing so might damage their standing
within avant-garde poetry circles.
Tim also said earlier: ‘I think there are multiple reasons why the issues I raise in the article are not being talked
about, and most of those reasons are connected with the problem itself, so it’s a Catch 22’. I agree with him.
Tim Allen
It depends on who is doing the talking David. While I suppose I am one side of a certain line the term covers such a
wide variety of different poetic practises these days that the only real pointer it gives is to a kind of community of
names, not tribal exactly but similar. As I’ve said here before I don’t particularly mind what my stuff [poetry] gets
called but I am interested when people try to eek out particulars. In some respects I don’t think some of my work is
any closer to the avant than a poet such as Peter Riley, but it depends on what work we are referring to. Peter Riley
says he is not an avant-garde poet and I suppose he is right, but the “community of names” he is associated with, and
who tend to be the ones who appreciate his work most, definitely include many who get so labelled etc.
Nevertheless, some of the things that currently mark out a poet as being called “experimental” or avant are pretty
obvious-those who incorporate technology as an integral part of the work (and not just a means)-those whose
work appears to cross boundaries with other art forms (this would include the performative) - those whose
processes of composition include methodologies associated with artificial forms, found texts, restrictions and chance
- and those whose work appears to break the usual rules of language etc. But after that it becomes a bit more
difficult but thinking of a lot of work that has appeared over the past decade I would include-those whose work
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