PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES - United Kingdom Parliament

61 Debate on the Address
9 MAY 2012
Debate on the Address
62
Members next door have the same validity, legitimacy
and so on? If we empower the other Chamber, will we
have a political boxing match with them all the time as
we often have within this Chamber? I am sure that we
will address those questions, but personally I will not
hold my breath in expectation of imminent reform—
although I might be wrong, as I often am.
That is not to say that I favour the status quo, but I
do foresee problems—some visible ones, some undercurrents
—that could stymie our debate. We might come up with
wonderful solutions, but with the best will in the world,
will they happen? [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member
for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) wish to intervene?
I would be pleased to accept an intervention. [Interruption.]
It was just the way he was sitting. I beg his pardon.
Dr Murrison: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for
his invitation to intervene. He referred to excitement in
his remarks. How much did he detect across the country
in the run-up to the recent elections? I looked but could
not find any.
Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman has hit an interesting
note. The good people of Dwyfor Meirionnydd were
hugely underwhelmed at the thought of House of Lords
reform, given that there were at least another 210 subjects
they wanted to talk about first.
For what they are worth, I shall leave those comments
on Lords reform up in the air—pointless, as they may
well be.
The Gracious Speech contained several interesting
proposals, but as always the devil is in the detail.
Nevertheless, I shall speak on the basis of what I know
now of the speech. First, though, I would like to
congratulate Her Majesty on her reign and on having
been an excellent monarch for many years. I fully welcome
the Government’s intention to bring in the groceries
ombudsman—I think that is what it is called—in the
Gracious Speech. Many of us throughout the House have
championed such a thing for a long time. I first came to
it in about 2004—2005 possibly—and many people in
the Chamber and outside have argued similarly.
As we know, a draft Bill was published and scrutinised
during the last Session and might well be the basis of
the legislation coming before us shortly. Ministers in the
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs,
I and everyone in the Chamber are aware of the crisis in
the milk industry, for example. We need an ombudsman
with real powers and teeth to tackle these problems, as
the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds)
said. We owe it not only to the farming community but
to the many other suppliers to ensure that the ombudsman
can act to good effect. Unless we do that, I am afraid
that the measure might prove a damp squib.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Does the
right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be sensible to
seek amendments to ensure that the ombudsman’s powers
are in the Bill and not kept in reserve?
Mr Llwyd: I am always in favour, where possible, of
putting the powers in the Bill, because many things
happen by way of secondary legislation that slip through
on the nod, and suddenly we have unintended consequences
and law that is not as workable or useful as we might
have thought. I agree, therefore, with the hon. Gentleman.
I have heard it said that there will be a power to name
and shame. That is one thing that supermarkets, for
example, would be concerned about, but equally there
must be a power to impose substantial financial penalties.
Small financial penalties will not do the office justice;
they must be substantial if they are to mean anything
at all.
I referred to the dairy industry. The problems are not
unique to Wales—they are across the board—but since
1999 the number of Welsh dairy farmers has halved.
This week’s tuppence cut by Dairy Crest has wreaked
havoc on many people in north, mid and south Wales. It
is said that a cut of between 3p and 4p, for example,
means a loss of £65 million to the Welsh dairy sector. I
would like the EU dairy package on contracts introduced
on a compulsory rather than a voluntary basis, and
I hope that DEFRA Ministers will hold a full and frank
discussion with devolved Ministers on that basis.
This issue does not only concern dairy farmers, however;
suppliers in general are being hammered by the unfair
contract terms and pressures being applied. I remember
seeing several Ministers about this matter, including Lord
Bach, who said, candidly, “I need six or seven names and
examples of pressure being applied”, but dairy farmers,
concerned about being victimised and losing their contracts,
were not prepared to put their heads above the parapet.
As one said to me, “Half a loaf is better than no loaf at
all.” So, there we are. I understand that there will now
be a right to complain anonymously.
I will give the House the example of a farmer in the
constituency whom I have the privilege to represent
who bottles water—the purest water in Wales, apparently.
On occasion, I have even drunk it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
(Mr Crispin Blunt): When desperate.
Mr Llwyd: Well, with something else. [Interruption.]
The farmer came to an agreement with one of the
large supermarkets. Believe it or not, it came out like
this: the supplier was allowed 1.5p profit per litre of
water, but the water was sold by the supermarket for
more than 80p. He declined to do it. That 1.5p included
travelling from mid-Wales across to Shropshire to deliver
the water every day. It simply was not worth his while,
yet apparently those terms are typical. We need to get to
grips with these issues, otherwise all our home producers
—of good vegetables, apples and so on—will say, “Well,
it’s not worth it. We’re packing up.” That is the last thing
we want.
Dr Murrison: I agree absolutely with the right hon.
Gentleman’s remarks about producers and farmers. Of
course, my constituents, many of whom farm, would
expect me to say that. However, my constituents also
require good value for money from supermarkets. Does
he agree that it is important that supermarkets can
apply pressure to large multinational chains that produce
goods and from which consumers need good value?
There is a clear difference between the two.
Mr Llwyd: Yes, and one hopes that the ombudsman
will be involved in that scenario as well. We shall no
doubt consider the Bill shortly, and I hope that that
aspect will be covered; otherwise, we will be doing only
half the job. I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says.