FEF Newsthe problems that have provokedplasma physics until now <strong>and</strong> posedenormous difficulties, suddenly disappearin<strong>to</strong> thin air.Question: At the time, people saidthat the magnetically isolated diode(MID) couldn't possibly work.When I first proposed this concept—thatwas 10 or 12 years ago—itwas completely ignored. A few yearslater, a very prominent man explainedthat magnetic isolation belonged inmore or less the same category as theperpetual motion machine. He declaredin a letter published in thejournal Nature that anybody who proposedsuch a thing should build aworking model, just like the paten<strong>to</strong>ffice official who required the sameof inven<strong>to</strong>rs of perpetual motion machines.Since then, however, theprominent man has stated that thiskind of perpetual motion machinereally works, even though true perpetualmotion does not.Today MID is being used, for example,at Karlsruhe. They are alsopursuing inertial fusion there, <strong>and</strong> indeedwith ion beams generated byMIDs—albeit initially on a smallerscale than in the United States.technologies, which as allied technologiesfor fusion lead <strong>to</strong> decisive newperspectives, as with the productionof intense ion beams. In my opinionit will not be done simply with magneticisolation as such.What we need immediately aremagnetically isolated diodes that cangenerate ion beams of extremely highquality. The beams produced by thismeans are not so far of the desiredquality. So it has been not at all easy<strong>to</strong> focus on a tiny spot.produce fusion than here<strong>to</strong>fore imagined.Question: In the Federal Republic,not only is there no increase in investmentin fusion, but resources arebeing cut back, as for example atGarching. What do you think of thissituation?Basically, we should not recommendcutbacks, since that wouldmean dispensing with the know-howof this high-powered technology, <strong>and</strong>Question: That brings us <strong>to</strong> anothertheme. In the Federal Republic verylittle is being done in the field ofinertial fusion. Do you think moreshould be done, <strong>and</strong> why has so littlebeen done until now?In the mid-1950s there was a debateover what course fusion researchshould take, organized <strong>and</strong> led byProfessor von Weizsacker's administration.At that time it was decidednot <strong>to</strong> enter the field of inertial fusion,but <strong>to</strong> concentrate solely on magneticfusion. The state of inertial confinement<strong>to</strong>day thus reflects a decisiontaken very early, but which may yetbe reversed, as we see in Karlsruhe.Question: How in your opinionshould research in this field be carriedforward?I would say that we should puttremendous emphasis on these newMembers of the <strong>Fusion</strong> Energy Forum organizing in Munich. "They aredefinitely contributing a great deal <strong>to</strong> the formulation of a positive energypolicy."A laser beam is a beam of higherquality; sunlight or the beam of aflashlight represents only a poor qualityby comparison, since unlike lasersit cannot be focused on a point. Wemust do research on the focusing ofion beams <strong>to</strong> extremely fine dimensions.If we succeed here, then weshall have completely new perspectives<strong>and</strong> unforeseen breakthroughs,which will make it much easier <strong>to</strong>dispensing with the experts who havea wealth of knowledge about it. Andin financing particular projects, greatemphasis should be put on the latesttechnologies, as in the project underwayat Karlsruhe. There must be amultitude of approaches underway—say, 10 <strong>to</strong> 100 times as many as now.Then the Federal Republic wouldachieve importance on a world scalein this area, much as the Federal Re-56 FUSION Oc<strong>to</strong>ber-November 1981 FEF News
public has achieved importance in thefield of high-energy physics with thesynchrotron electron accelera<strong>to</strong>r inHamburg.Question: Recently in Bild der Wissenschaft[Image of Science, an antitechnologyGerman magazine], theSocial Democratic member of parliamentSteger expressed the view thatthe Federal Republic should eventuallyput an end <strong>to</strong> fusion research—when, say, projects like JET [the JointEuropean Torus] failed <strong>to</strong> produce thedesired results.It we terminate this research now,it would be comparable <strong>to</strong> havingended aeronautical research on theeve of the invention of the airplane.Put yourself in 1900, when all theprojects that had been tested untilthen had failed—for example, airrplanes driven by steam engines. Whatif we had given up <strong>and</strong> said, it won'twork, let's throw in the <strong>to</strong>wel? Theairplane would never have been developed,<strong>and</strong> people would havegone around saying, we can go n(j>further. We would be living <strong>to</strong>day a$in the era before 1903.So it would be a tremendous mistake,since there is no doubt thatcontrolled fusion is possible in principle.No doubt whatever. It's not aquestion of whether one or anotherproject achieves its goal, or evenwhen it does. Aeronautics is a perfectexample here. There was the Zeppelin,<strong>and</strong> there was the airplane. Bothworked, <strong>and</strong> it may be that both inertialfusion <strong>and</strong> magnetic fusion willwork, or also a third method that weare not yet working on <strong>to</strong>day or thatis not yet known <strong>to</strong> us. So it would bea mistake <strong>to</strong> say since the one won'twork, the other won't work: "If theZeppelin fails, forget about that airplaneidea."It would be not only sad, it wouldbe stupid. Because there is no questionbut that fusion will work. Wedon't know whether all the experimentsthat are planned will click orwhether just some of them will. Butthen, even when one experimentfails, you still have the expertise, <strong>and</strong>that is the most important investment.You have all the know-how, <strong>and</strong> itcan be put <strong>to</strong> work on another project.Question: At your lectures, the questionwas often raised whether we stillneed fission, since fusion is so promising.We need fission in any case. Thefirst fission reac<strong>to</strong>r was brought in<strong>to</strong>operation in 1942. With fusion we arestill in the situation in which fissionfound itself prior <strong>to</strong> 1942. By contrast,fission now has decades of technologicaldevelopment behind it. This isconspicuous in the fact that we haveavailable <strong>to</strong> us nuclear power plantsIf we terminated fusionresearch now, it would becomparable <strong>to</strong> havingended aeronauticalresearch on the eveof the inventionof the airplane.producing electricity on a large scale.We cannot afford simply <strong>to</strong> wait untilfusion reac<strong>to</strong>rs come on line. Weneed fission if only as an interim solution.If nuclear power plants are notbuilt in the Federal Republic, <strong>and</strong> thenuclear energy program comes <strong>to</strong> ahalt over the next 10 years, then thiswill lead, with inescapable certainty,<strong>to</strong> the economic collapse of the FederalRepublic.Question: What about the problemof waste disposal?This is where lies are spread amongthe people. It is claimed that theproblem of waste disposal has notbeen solved. In fact it is completelysolved, in technical detail. But ofcourse, if you don't build a wastedisposal center, you can't deal withany wastes, any more than you can flythe airplane if you don't build anairport.Question: Many people say weshould rely more on solar energy. TheIIASA report I mentioned says thatsolar energy will be more importantthan fusion over the next 50 years.What is your opinion?By no means. That is completelyinsane. Solar energy is <strong>to</strong>o inefficient.No amount of research can changethat. No matter how much money ispoured in<strong>to</strong> solar energy research, infact, no research can alter the limitsof solar radiation. Then people willsay we should build solar powerplants on or near the Sun. Unfortunately,that cannot be done. Solarenergy is like the emperor's newclothes—it isn't there. The best youcan do with solar energy is <strong>to</strong> makewarm water. And that is really all.There are even people who propose<strong>to</strong> introduce solar power in Sweden.Now, since Sweden is oftenovercast, <strong>and</strong> is relatively close <strong>to</strong> theNorth Pole, it isn't clear <strong>to</strong> me howthis Is supposed <strong>to</strong> work. It would bea truly hopeless enterprise. The otherargument, that the Third World hasplenty of sun, is also wrong. Evenunder the most favorable conditions,solar energy is still very uneconomical.Solar energy is insanely expensive.Because it is so inefficient, we wouldneed gigantic collec<strong>to</strong>r panels. If wewanted <strong>to</strong> supply the United Stateswith solar power <strong>and</strong> used the mostfavorable region—the AmericanSouthwest—we would cover thous<strong>and</strong>sof square kilometers just withcollec<strong>to</strong>rs, not <strong>to</strong> mention what theoutcome of a s<strong>and</strong>s<strong>to</strong>rm would be.Question: But we could also say thatfusion is a form of solar energy.Precisely. The Sun is actually a giantfusion reac<strong>to</strong>r. If we want <strong>to</strong> collectsolar energy at the Earth's surface, wecan only do so in two dimensions,that is, by means of collec<strong>to</strong>r surfaces.Its incidence is very irregular, <strong>and</strong>apart from cloudiness, there is nosunshine at night, as everbody knows.FEF NewsOc<strong>to</strong>ber-November 1981FUSION 57