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Page 38 Senate Friday, 21 October 2016 evident or stated in the reports. I was making that point to differentiate the Four Corners report from the two reports. The Four Corners report required us to have a royal commission, because a royal commission has the powers, if there is obviously a culture within something, to be able to pull those matters apart. And it certainly was not evident at all from the two reports, and that was the point I was making. Senator McALLISTER: There are reports that were in the public domain almost a year before the Four Corners program. They go to the very limited training for the officers in those facilities that was completely inadequate in the face of the task they were assigned. The acting general manager in the report, on page 25, talks about the fact that a youth justice officer receives three days training and that there is no way in the world the training is adequate. That was the response to the culture of brutality, that I would assert is evident in the report. I think the report is chilling. Were you aware of that element of the report? Senator Scullion: Certainly, it was on the public record that there had been a number of recommendations. When this came out in the media there were the reports, and not only had sixteen recommendations, including issues around training, been accepted, but 15 of them had been adopted. The training was a fundamental part of that, and it is good to see that the Northern Territory government has implemented those changes. That was monitored by organisations like NAAJA and the legal aid commission, a group of obviously independent people, ensuring that those changes were real. That is what we knew at the time. Senator McALLISTER: On 23 September the Northern Territory News and the ABC reported claims of abuse of children by staff at Don Dale, and you referenced those in your opening remarks. The ABC report quoted that: … some staff made young people fight, with the winner getting extra soft drink and chocolate. And: There was poo sitting on the ground one time and a young fella got dared to eat its shit and they videoed it and put it on SnapChat to all their friends and they gave him a Coke and a chocolate. Were you made aware of the article at that time? Senator Scullion: I can remember in general terms, particularly because of the reference to bird faeces. It is not something you forget in a hurry. But I can also remember in that same report that those matters were being dealt with, and that was the context of those reports. Those reports had come out and those matters were being dealt with as part of those recommendations by the Northern Territory government. Those were the news reports. It was not in isolation—that 'this has happened' and they are not talking about anything else. This had happened, those are the sorts of things that were happening, and the news report went on to say that those recommendations had been accepted and implemented. Senator McALLISTER: So you accept that that is a fairly graphic description of a problem, because it is so memorable—faeces? Senator Scullion: That is correct. Of course it is. Senator McALLISTER: Of course. And you were fully aware of it at the time? Senator Scullion: I was made aware at the time in the media, and the media were saying two things. They were saying, 'This happened, and this is what is being done to ensure it doesn’t happen again.' They were released on news media at the same time. That was the context of the media articles at the time. Senator McALLISTER: So you were fully aware, but confident that others were dealing with it? Senator Scullion: That seemed to be the indication in both the media and the meeting brief. Senator McALLISTER: There was another report on 12 November in 2015, last year, that appeared on the ABC and contained claims about the use of spit hoods and mechanical restraint— Senator Scullion: I am sorry, can you remind me which report that was? Senator McALLISTER: Yes, I can table it. Senator Scullion: No, that is not necessary. There were a lot of reports and stuff and different dates, and I am just not that agile. Senator McALLISTER: There have been a lot of reports, it is true. This was well documented in the public domain. On 12 November 2105 another report appeared on the ABC and it was published by— Senator Scullion: A media report? No, that is okay. I thought it was actually a report report. My apologies. Senator McALLISTER: Sorry. It was published by Kate Wild. Senator Scullion: Just a media report. I understand. FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
Friday, 21 October 2016 Senate Page 39 Senator McALLISTER: I can table the document if that would help you. Senator Scullion: No, that is okay. I thought you were referring to one of the other reports. My apologies. Senator McALLISTER: It was published by Kate Wild, and it talked about the claims of the use of spit hoods and mechanical restraint chairs at Don Dale. Were you aware of that report? Senator Scullion: I cannot recall reading that particular report, that particular piece of media. I cannot recall. Senator McALLISTER: Can anyone in the department assist? Were you aware of that report? Senator Scullion: They cannot assist in whether or not I read it. But that is to the best of my recollection. Senator McALLISTER: No, I am certainly not asking them that. Mr Tongue, was the department aware of those reports? Mr Matthews: Without seeing the exact article, I could not tell you exactly. Senator McALLISTER: I can table it. Mr Matthews: With the QTBs that we had done around the time—the first one was October, then subsequently in November and into March next year—it is possible that it would have been picked up in the media scanning we have done and updated in one of the QTBs, possibly. Without seeing the exact article, I do not know. I would have to go back and check. Senator McALLISTER: Right. You may have known about it, but you were not asked to provide a brief to the minister? Mr Matthews: I would guess that, if we were aware of it, if it had changed, it would have been something we would have looked at to see whether it would change the tone of the background material or something in the question time briefing. That would be the normal process. CHAIR: Since you have mentioned question time briefs, Minister, in between the release of this report that Senator McAllister has been referring to and the Four Corners episode airing, how many questions did you receive in question time in the Senate from opposition members on the Don Dale detention centre? Senator Scullion: I can recall that there were none on the specific issues around this. CHAIR: So, as Senator McAllister said, this was an issue that was in the media and was reported on, but was not raised with you once in Senate question time? How about in Senate estimates? Senator Scullion: No, there were none in Senate estimates and, as I said, I have perhaps made an assumption. I do not wish to verbal any of the committee, but we had the children's commissioner giving evidence at an estimates hearing in the Northern Territory saying basically, 'I think all of these things are in hand; they are all being done.' No doubt, my colleagues around the table would have had a level of comfort from that and other assurances that yes, this might have been horrid, but this is being done. I guess a lot of people would find it difficult to make the direct connection in a jurisdictional faction between the Commonwealth and correctional services in the Northern Territory. CHAIR: There have obviously been a lot of questions since the airing of the Four Corners report. In your view, would it be fair to say that the Four Corners report piqued the interest of opposition members? Senator Scullion: You would have to ask them. There is no doubt that everybody felt that it was just shocking. CHAIR: Agreed. Senator Scullion: The Four Corners report was just horrible and shocking, and it has given us all a shake. We are doing our best within our capacity, as I indicated in my opening statement, to ensure that those circumstances never happen again, and we have all got to play our part in it. It might be state and territory jurisdiction, but, for me particularly, because we have such a high level of Indigenous incarceration in this space, we have to have a particular and much higher level of interest. In my opening statement I outlined those actions that we have taken to ensure that we know about everything, and we have certainly been at great lengths to assist the states and territories at those peak levels—at those particularly pointed places on entry to incarceration—to ensure that we know about the recidivism and all of those matters that I dealt with in my opening remarks. Senator DODSON: Chair, on your use of the term 'piqued interest', from memory it was a term that the minister used in response to these matters and not necessarily relevant to members of the opposition. Senator Scullion: Again, I was disappointed with the opposition's fantasy in the Federation Chamber yesterday, where the fantasy was that I was actually offered the opportunity by the ABC to see it early. That is the fantasy. That is how twisted this stuff gets. In fact, I asked to see it and they denied me the opportunity. You FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
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