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Page 18 Senate Wednesday, 1 March 2017 Mr Richardson: You get limited examples of that. But it is a furphy that a public servant walks out the door and a consultant walks in the door. That is simply a furphy. There are limited examples where we can point to that but, in general, that is not the case. Senator KIM CARR: Are there any provisions within your administrative framework that prevent public servants from actually doing that? Mr Richardson: No. Senator KIM CARR: None. There are no provisions to prevent it? Mr Richardson: No. Senator KIM CARR: Should there be? Mr Richardson: That is a matter for government and the Parliament. That would involve both APS and the ADF. Senator KIM CARR: Well, there are conflicts of interest provisions, for instance– Mr Richardson: There are. Senator KIM CARR: within the public service guidelines. Mr Richardson: We do have provisions relating to that. It is a really interesting issue and something that you grapple with as a matter of principle. Equally, if you have worked in the ADF for 25 or 30 years and that has been your total life's work and you then leave, are we going to deny that person an opportunity to get employment utilising the skills that they have developed? That will probably be in the Defence industry. There are conflicting principles here. Senator KIM CARR: There are recent cases I can tell you of in regards to the CSIRO, for instance, where people have walked out of very senior positions straight into companies working directly in areas for which that previous public servant was responsible. Do you have that situation in Defence? Mr Richardson: There have certainly been instances where people have left Defence and walked straight into areas which I would question. Senator KIM CARR: So what do you do under that circumstance? Mr Richardson: I simply note it. Senator KIM CARR: There is no other provision available to you as a secretary? Mr Richardson: There are some restrictions in place in certain areas in terms of what they can do. But there is considerable movement between Defence and the defence industry. There is a lot of movement backwards and forwards and it does raise a lot of issues, in my view. CHAIR: Can I ask you to pause there? Senator KIM CARR: Sure. I do have some follow-through on a couple of contracts specifically, if I could. CHAIR: You can come back to those. Senator Ludlam. Senator LUDLAM: I want to ask a couple of fairly high-level questions to begin with, which you might want to take on, Minister, if you feel like I'm straying into policy. I want to quote Michael Green, who is a former national security adviser to President Bush the younger. he said about new president Donald Trump: …we've never had a president come into office with such an unpredictable style of communication and with such alarm among our closest friends and allies. I'm interested to know how the department is managing the Trump administrations contradictory and, in my view, quite alarming statements? Mr Richardson: I can respond to that. I do not believe the current administration has been making contradictory and alarming statements. Senator LUDLAM: So we are going to war with China then? Mr Richardson: No, I do not believe the Trump administration has said we are going to war with China. Senator LUDLAM: What about Iran? Mr Richardson: I do not believe the Trump administration has said they are going to war with China. Senator LUDLAM: We must be reading different reports. Go ahead; I will let you answer. Mr Richardson: I think that is a matter of public record. I do not believe the Trump administration has said that it is going to war with either country. FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
Wednesday, 1 March 2017 Senate Page 19 Senator LUDLAM: Mr Richardson, what is your view on torture? Do you believe that torture techniques like water boarding absolutely work, as stated by president Donald Trump? Mr Richardson: I will keep my views on such matters to myself. Senator LUDLAM: Okay. I will ask you a policy question rather than a personal view. What is Australian government policy on torture as it relates to Defence and intelligence? Mr Richardson: We do not utilise torture. Senator LUDLAM: Do we support our allies using it? Mr Richardson: As a general principle we are opposed to the use of torture. Senator LUDLAM: I am very glad to hear it, Mr Richardson. Has that view been communicated to our colleagues at a ministerial or a departmental level? Mr Richardson: To who? Senator LUDLAM: Either you to your counterpart in the United States government— Mr Richardson: Why? Why would we do that? Senator LUDLAM: We are not concerned that the Trump administration is reintroducing torture as a means of intelligence gathering? Mr Richardson: He has said no such thing. Senator LUDLAM: The US commander in chief has said that they are proposing to introduce things way worse than water boarding. Senator Payne: And you would know, Senator, if you were to canvass the entirety of the remarks in that context, that the president of the United States has also indicated that the Secretary of Defence's views on this matter are ones that he has taken on board. Senator LUDLAM: That is one of the contradictions I was referring to, Mr Richardson. Mr Richardson: No, the President was very clear. During the campaign the President spoke positively about water boarding and the like. As President, what he said—and I stand to be corrected—was that personally he did not have a problem with water boarding and the like. However, he has delegated that decision-making to the Secretary of Defence who is a decorated and highly respected military officer who was opposed to it and said he would not pursue such methods. I think Trump has been very clear on it. Senator Payne: And so has Secretary Mattis. Senator LUDLAM: He has been utterly contradictory, as I think you have just identified. He said one thing before the election and now you are pointing out that he said something quite different after. It’s okay; we will move on. CHAIR: Different interpretations, Senator Ludlam. Senator LUDLAM: Certainly, it is an interpretation. Will Australia continue to use intelligence sourced from the United States under the five eyes agreement if that intelligence was obtained through torture? Mr Richardson: We do not know how the intelligence is obtained. We intelligence share with the US and it saves Australian lives. We value the intelligence that the US shares with us. Senator LUDLAM: Do we do any due diligence or will we in future, since this issue has been raised? Mr Richardson: No. Senator LUDLAM: So we do not mind whether it was obtained through torture or not? Mr Richardson: Is not a question of that. Senator LUDLAM: No, it is now. Mr Richardson: We share intelligence. We have long-standing arrangements and the national interest is served by it. And Australian lives have been saved because of it. Senator LUDLAM: Is our national interest served if we are implicated in torture as an intelligence gathering technique? Mr Richardson: Our national interest is served by the intelligence sharing arrangements we have with the United States. Senator LUDLAM: You did not answer my question. Mr Richardson: I have answered it as far as I going to. FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
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