Mana moana, mana tangata Testimonies on depletion and ...

<strong>Mana</strong> <strong>moana</strong>, <strong>mana</strong> <strong>tangata</strong>
<strong>Testimonies</strong> on depletion and restoration of
mahinga kai

Cover Photo: Chris Hepburn
Jonathan Dick, Rachel Turner, Janet Stephenson, Rau Kirikiri and Henrik Moller
Tirohia he Huarahi Research Report #1
Centre for Sustainability (CSAFE)
PO Box 56, Dunedin
University of Otago
www.csafe.org.nz
March 2012
ii

Mauriora ki te whaiao, ki te ao mārama
Ko Ranginui kei runga ko Papatuanuku kei raro
Ko Tāne ki uta ko Tangaroa ki tai
He mokopuna maha, he whaiwhakaaro tahi
Tū mai ko te ao hurihuri e tuohu ana
Tihei mauri ora
iii

About this report
We are honoured in this report to be able to share the observations of kaitiaki (Māori
environmental guardians) relating to the state of their traditional food-gathering areas, and
their work to try to restore them to abundance. The report is a compliation of quotes drawn
from interviews undertaken as part of the Tirohia he Huarahi research project. Tirohia he
Huarahi (also entitled Plans, Power, Partnerships) was a 3-year Marsden-funded project (2009-
2012) examining barriers to, and benefits that could arise from, more active participation of
<strong>tangata</strong> whenua (people of the land) in the <strong>mana</strong>gement of mahinga kai (traditional foodgathering
areas and associated practices).
The research team carried out in-depth interviews with kaitiaki (environmental guardians) from
fourteen iwi (tribes) across the North Island of New Zealand, who have been actively working to
protect and restore mahinga kai. The research was conducted according to the approval
granted by the University of Otago Ethics Committee (Permit no. 08/175).
The interviews were recorded on audio tapes and transcribed, and then returned to
interviewees for checking and for their approval to use the information in publications. We also
held a two-day workshop with kaitiaki to reflect on our interim findings, and to confirm their
support for sharing some of the testimonies through this report. We then sent a draft of this
report around the kaitiaki who were interviewed, for their review and feedback, and followed
up personally with each one, to ensure they were happy with the contents of this report.
The report consists of excerpts from the interviews and the workshop discussions, grouped into
themes. We have not attempted to interpret the testimonies apart from a brief summary of
the main themes at the start of each section.
The testimonies reveal a deep concern at the continued despoliation of coastal ecosystems and
the unfavourable consequences of this for their respective local communities. They also reveal
the strong commitment of kaitiaki to restoring the health and abundance of mahinga kai.
All the participants have approved publication of their iwi affiliations and the excerpts of
transcripts presented here. They hope that other kaitiaki, researchers, policy makers and
resource <strong>mana</strong>gers might use the testimonies recorded here to help improve the health of the
environment, and through this, the health of the people. We ask that any such users duly
acknowledge the material as coming from this report.
To all of the interviewees and workshop participants who have contributed to this report, thank
you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. No reira, tenei te mihi ki a koutou katoa i tuku
mai i o koutou taonga kia kitea ake te ao. Ka nui te aroha.
v

This report was compiled by Rachel Turner. The interviews were mainly conducted by Jonathan
Dick, with assistance from Rauru Kirikiri, Janet Stephenson and Henrik Moller. All are members
of the Tirohia he Huarahi research team.
The Tirohia he Huarahi research team (from left): Rachel Turner, Janet Stephenson, Jonathan
Dick, Rauru Kirikiri, Henrik Moller and Nicole McCrossin.
vi

Interviewee key
Each quote is numbered as below to show the iwi affiliation of the interviewee and/or workshop
participant.
1 Te Rarawa
2 Ngāti Maniapoto
3 Ngāti Pāhauwera
4 Rongomaiwahine
5; 5b (in workshop) Ngāti Kahungunu
6 Ngāti Kahungunu,
Kairākau
7 Ngāti Kahungunu
8 Ngāti Maniapoto,
Waikato
9 Ngāti Porou ki
Harataunga
10; 10b (in workshop) Ngāti Porou ki
Harataunga
11 Ngā Rauru
12 Ngāti Rangiwewehi
13; 13b (in workshop) Ngāti Rangiwewehi
14; 14b (in workshop) Te Arawa
15; 15b (in workshop) Te Arawa
16 Ngāi Te Ruruku
17 Ngāti Kuta/Patukeha
18; 18b (in workshop) Te Whānau-ā-Apanui
19 Ngāti Kahungunu
20; 20b (in workshop) Ngāti Kuia
21 Te Whānau-ā-Apanui
22 Ngāti Kahungunu
23 New Zealand
24 Ngāti Raukawa
25; 25b (in workshop) Ngā Puhi
26 Ngāti Pikiao, Te Arawa
27 Te Arawa
28 Ngā Puhi
29; 29b (in workshop) Rākaipaaka, Ngāti
Kahungunu
30 Ngāti Kahungunu
31 Te Arawa
Interviewers
1 Jonathan Dick
2 Henrik Moller
3 Janet Stephenson
vii

Iwi locations
viii

Table of Contents
Kai<strong>moana</strong> Abundance & Environmental Impact ............... 1
Changing Methods of Accessing Kai<strong>moana</strong> ....................... 1
Commercial Pressure .................................................... 4
Poaching & Other Pressures .......................................... 6
Past Abundance & Present State ................................ 8
Recreational Pressure .......................................... 19
Past & Current Impact of Land Uses on Kai<strong>moana</strong> ............ 22
Aspirations for Kai<strong>moana</strong> Abundance ....................... 28
Kaitiaki Action ............................................................. 33
Problem Recognition ................................................... 35
Conflict & Resolution ................................................... 58
Goal Setting ............................................................. 68
Initiating Change ................................................... 87
Relationship Building (networks) ................................ 97
Leadership ............................................................. 105
Monitoring; Issuing Permits .......................................... 118
Kaitiaki Formal Training Tools ................................ 116
Legal Mechanisms & Government Intervention ............. 119
Barriers for Iwi/Hapū .......................................... 121
ix

Helpers; Enablers .................................................... 157
Legal Mechanisms Attempted to Use by Iwi ....................... 171
Failure .............................................................. 184
Success .................................................... 188
Relationships with Government ................................. 194
Spirituality ......................................................................... 235
x

Kai<strong>moana</strong> Abundance & Environmental Impact on Kai<strong>moana</strong>
What is affecting kai<strong>moana</strong> abundance? What actions can be done to reduce pressure on kai and bring
back abundance? What activities most impact kai<strong>moana</strong>?
Changing Methods of Accessing Kai<strong>moana</strong>
How can kaitiaki and communities positively affect their mahinga kai areas and bring back kai<strong>moana</strong>
abundance?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Study species lifecycle to determine when it is best to gather; change back to seasonal gathering
Dive for kai so elders don’t have to
Produce your own food using aquaculture to take pressure off wild stocks
Rotate areas for gathering; give areas a ‘breather’; rāhui for particular areas
Gather middle-sized fish and leave breeders alone
Restock species
When kai<strong>moana</strong> isn’t able to be gathered like it used to be, then knowledge is lost; cultural
practises aren’t able to be maintained
The tradition of trading kai has been denigrated by loss of abundance and law (kereru)
you rotate your areas so that the stock doesn't get hit – Interviewee #2
.....................
why don't you go and put your scuba gear on and go and dive? because these rocks here, our old people
could be gathering the kai. – Interviewee #4
.....................
over time, we've lost the movement of pātiki, knowing when they come in and when they go back out
again. So I believe that they are there, but I think we need to re-look at their life cycle, their movements
again – Interviewee #8
.....................
1

You take pressure off wild stocks; by producing food you’re taking the pressure off. We were hoping if
we got successful to reseed, if we were going to be successful we would be able to supply food to the
marae – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Tangaroa is quite resilient despite the best endeavours of humankind. I suspect if you
gave it a breather, give it a bit of space you might find how it bounces back.
Interviewee #15- ... if he knows that we're doing this he will look after us too.
.....................
Pātaka system ... we’re trying to change the whole concept of diving back to seasonal – Interviewee #16
.....................
we tell our people the middle size is better. – Interviewee #16
.....................
...trying to restock again because we need to look at try and help mating. – Interviewee #16
.....................
we close all the beaches down and regenerate it – Interviewee #16
.....................
...we wanted a pātaka system – Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewee #18 - one of our kuia told us when they were kids they weren’t allowed to touch the trout
once they got past the wahapū. Once they got off the awa it was hands off. They got past you, leave
them alone. They are going to spawn. If you can’t catch them out of the lake you’ve got to leave them
alone and I grabbed that and I said, ‘Hey, that’s an old fishing tikanga.’ Although the law might say, ‘You
can fish out there,’ we got to start saying, ‘No you can’t. Our tūpuna have not allowed that. We don’t
allow that,’
Interviewer #1 – So is that a system of rāhui in particular areas?
Interviewee #18 – Yes,
.....................
we don’t have those stories to share anymore or we can’t go down and boast about our watercress and
take people down... it all comes back to kai. ... We always come back to kai and that’s the epitome of
2

our <strong>mana</strong>akitanga, how well we can feed each other, but even those relationships to the whenua, ... you
could go down as a group and collect watercress kōrero and the next minute the stories come out, ... so
the kōrero comes, ... so we’re not getting out there so much so we’re not talking and sharing the stories
so much – Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #19 – that’s the thing, ... is creating stuff, creating inland, give the <strong>moana</strong> a rest, you know,
I’m interested to see how this bloody mussel farm goes ... In Napier, you know I’ve never seen mussels
growing out in the sea on bloody strings and stuff. You know I’ve seen them growing in sheltered areas
down in Nelson and stuff and you know, where they’re protected, but to grow out in the ocean I think
they should have tried it first.
Interviewer #1 – So is that successful, you think that there’s a potential here for Maketu for a similar
venture?
Interviewee #19 – I think, yeah I think there would be because that green-lipped mussel is taking over
this Maketu mussel, you know, it just breeds so profusely, other than, well it gets taken, but you know,
the old Maketu mussel is getting a bit scarcer because the green-lipped are moving in and taking over
because it’s a faster-growing mussel, but yeah, it could be but then again, we mightn’t have the room.
We mightn’t have the room here
.....................
as early as last Christmas when we were at home we were struggling to catch a snapper and then we got
a report that they were all floating just outside the bay there. Someone had scooped them all up and
then dumped them because it was cheaper to dump them than bring them back in. So another solution
for that, for the fish dumping, that was given by <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki was the pātaka system. I mean a lot of
these things, these themes they keep recurring throughout all the different iwi groups so a pātaka
system, I think, it has been trialled in a couple of different areas, but that would be something along the
lines of rather than dumping fish, maybe store them or give them to the local <strong>tangata</strong> whenua and they
could use it as part of their customary allowance – Interviewee #10b
.....................
We had specific beds. So we had this bed, you don’t touch it, that’s for tangis. That one there, that’s for
21st, happy occasions. – Interviewee #10b
3

Commercial Pressure
What can be done about commercial impacts?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Ban commercial fishing in areas
Ask commercial fishers to cut back on take
they are seeing the commercial fisher boats going up and down the coastline ... Trawlers, ... and when
our people are waking up in the morning, particularly our kaumatua and kuia and they are seeing those
boats just outside the waves taking their kai. When they go and have a kai, it takes between 2 to 4
weeks, maybe a month, before they are able to start catching fish again because those trawlers just
seem to wipe the whole inshore fishery out ... So with these boats going over those particular fish holes,
they are wiping out what's in there and it's taking a while for those holes to recover because we're
having to wait for more tides, more things to come through – Interviewee #1
.....................
if we could prove that the seed of the stocks were down, getting down, we have to say to the
commercial guys, ‘Our stocks are going down, what are you going to do about it as part of your way for
preservation of this area? Are you going to cut back?’ – Interviewee #2
.....................
the common denominator amongst everybody was we wanted to ban commercial fishing. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
Interviewee #19 - one of the old Western Bay mayors ... he said he’d like to see commercial fishermen
outside the tip of Coromandel to the tip of (X?) Bay you know, he’d like to see all the commercial people
go out and down in Napier it’s bad and in Hawke’s Bay main they come right into the bloody shore, you
know, here at least they stay at six or eight km ... they’re pretty good here because they know we can
spot a number we’ll ring it in. Long liners can come in about three kms ... kahawai being caught
commercially and being sold to Australia for bait you know, I think something’s wrong there [laughs].
That’s our kai. That’s our kai you know, if you go down to the fish and chips shop and you try and buy a
smoked kahawai under $22, ridiculous, ridiculous and I remember as a kid selling them for 20 cents
outside the pub, two bob outside the pub in Waiarua
.....................
4

There’s only a very small area that you can get, collect kai<strong>moana</strong>, pāua and kina and that part is at the
Tamure, Kahawai that’s a concern the overfishing with the commercial vessels coming in close. Because
that’s some of our traditional ground, mainly one of the areas Kai Tamure that’s the name of the urupā
for the whole area up, well Ngāti Kauaha there’s the launching area for one of the waka. Pākehā has
married into the hapū of Ngāti Kauaha and a whaler from 1830s that is, listed as a traditional area along
the snapper area, for fishing. – Interviewee #30
.....................
There’s not a lot of areas that people want to get to unless the trawlers come in right in close. That’s
the only way they’re getting depleted. Not from people fishing locally – Interviewee #30
5

Poaching & Other Pressures
Who are the poachers? What impact are they having on abundance? What can be done to counter
poachers? What other pressures are there?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Poachers are both Māori and non-Māori; in some areas, non-local iwi members are the greatest
poachers
After trawlers leave an area it takes between 2-4 weeks for locals to start to see kai come back
Globalisation and development has a big impact – more mouths to feed
There aren’t enough people on the ground to prevent poaching
the poaching that's going on, both non-Māori and Māori in respect of poaching – Interviewee #1
.....................
they ravage, rape and pillage, I call it, our seafood areas – Interviewee #13
.....................
The people that are abusing it are our own people, [iwi-X] in-landers. ...They don't live here so they
don't have to see it depleting, ...They get what they want and then they bugger off for another year and
they don't realise well, there's 100 other, 1,000 other people doing that as well ... the power is in
numbers and with [iwi-X] in [X] and they just are quite arrogant when they come here. We’re just the
[X] people, so they are quite arrogant about ignoring us trying to conserve anything. They don't think
about it at all - Interviewee #15
.....................
Long as we can catch what we want and they want and be plenty left for everybody, then we don’t have
a problem. – Interviewee #16
.....................
there’s a huge variation between what the scientists, who are really the key people informing the
<strong>mana</strong>gers to inform the Minister. It’s not the local community. There is no mechanism, there is no
mechanism for MaF to gauge local community knowledge on what’s happening on their coasts, there’s
none. The only way they’ll get informed is if someone rings up the 0800 POACH number to say
someone’s, looks like they’re infringing the law – Interviewee #20
.....................
6

I think the biggest problem is ... the poachers or these people who just don’t listen to the rules. I mean
we’ve got all the Ministry signs up saying what the sizes are, what the catch is and people still don’t
listen and that’s where I sympathise with the, you know, with the compliance people. They just don’t,
Ministry just doesn’t have enough people on the ground. I think they do a good, the Ministry does a
good job in the coastal watch you know, because you see it on TV and I think they’re doing a marvellous
job, but I think there needs to be more budget for, to have more compliance people because I think, I’m
not too sure what the numbers are from within our area – Interviewee #26
.....................
Interviewee #25b – Well to use a good example, we used to have lots of kina eaters, we don’t anymore.
They used to come down every weekend from wherever, from inland to the beach, carloads, 8, 9, 10
carloads of a whanau would turn up and all it would do was get kina. That’s all they were interested in
was kina, by the sackload, take them back to wherever. When the works fell over and they lost their
economic transport ability, they don’t come down any more. The consequence, kina populations are
(burging?) and they have been negative in terms of decimating the seaweed and the other ecology
surrounding it, so we all lose out because the people from inland don't come and get kina like they used
to. Pākehā they recognise it, they’ll go out there and they just won’t eat them but they’ll smash them
open and reduce their impact ... it’s all over the bay. We have a big problem with kina. Kina are
creating barrens.
Interviewee #5b – They’re not a good kina either are they? Because they’re all competing for what little
foods there are
Interviewee #25b – They’re skinny. They’re underformed. They’re in starvation mode
.....................
Interviewee #15b – the council is going to re-divert the river back through the estuary. So the dynamics
will change and like you said, like a lot of the Pākehā people are onto it and doing their best, but our
own people from inland come over as if they’ve got a God-given right to just plunder, basically.
Interviewee 33b – And have they lived within the rules of the taiāpure?
Interviewee #15b – No, because they don’t, they’ve got kaumatua inland that write out their permits
and it’s allowed by law. You know, every marae inland writes out a permit. They’ve got no idea what
the stocks are like or if there’s been a tangi or a drowning or a rāhui or anything, just plunder and
sometimes you see like those people that have got swept out to sea on their boat, you know, the boat
ran out of petrol or something
7

Past Abundance & Present State
What did stocks and mahinga kai areas used to look like? How is food gathering harder than it used to
be? How does kai<strong>moana</strong> abundance look now? What is available?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Decline in flatfish, shark, pipi, kina, eels, kahawai, watercress, kākahi, kōura, tarakihi, and
whitebait; degradation of resources; There has been no improvement in stocks; stocks have
depleted; no abundance; Kai is no longer plentiful, abundant, or sustainable
There was plenty of kai in interviewees’ childhoods; 50 years ago; grandparents’ era
You have to dive to get kai now where it was once plentiful; It is getting harder to access kai
(having to go further out; unable to find legal size)
<strong>Mana</strong>akitanga is negatively affected; Knowledge is unable to be transferred to younger
generations
Areas that sustained families during the Great Depression are polluted and depleted now
There used to be a stronger relationship with the <strong>moana</strong> because people were fully reliant on it
for food
Dredging and pollution from farming and forestry has negatively impacted waterways (which
affects cultural wellbeing)
There are a few areas where species are coming back
there are kai<strong>moana</strong> out there now that are no longer available to them. ... We used to have that or our
tūpuna used to collect the tītī our (timitimiti?) right up until the 1940s or 1950s, 1959 was the last time
they harvested their last tītī bird and what they had come to realise then was the reason that they didn't
return the following year was there was no kai for them anymore. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewee#1 - our people ... are seeing the degradation to the resources that they have had access to
since they were born in the time of their tūpuna.
Interviewer #1 – Degradation of abundance or degradation of the whole-
Interviewee #1– The whole coastline
8

.....................
we did find that the stocks were, had changed over the years. – Interviewee #2
.....................
I can remember when I was a kid, that would be the ideal world. If we're talking about mahinga kai then
I would be going back 50+ years where fish was plentiful, eels were plentiful, kahawai were plentiful and
there've been no barriers on quota or limits on what one can catch. ... I suppose those days are gone
now – Interviewee #3
.....................
when we were younger there was a lot of kai. – Interviewee #4
.....................
I remember being in a dinghy and me and my dad ... reached out over the side and we were grabbing
kinas off this rock and now you've actually got to put scuba gear on and go quite deep to get amounts of
kai<strong>moana</strong> to feed people at maraes so that we carry on our hospitality, our traditions, which is to feed
the people. – Interviewee #4
.....................
‘Well you know what the pipis are like up here now and out of our love, I've sent my mokos and my
sons to go and get you some pipis and to take them back down to Mahia and transplant that because
we've got,’ they had heard about the trouble that we're in. – Interviewee #4
.....................
we've grown up and we have dived and we have fished, we have been on the sea and we have seen no
improvement of anything we've seen at the time in the stocks. – Interviewee #4
.....................
... in terms of a birth right around being able to feed ourselves and our whanau/whānui, and to pass that
down to respective generations, it’s just not possible ... it’s on the background of having childhood
experiences that weren’t able to be passed on to the next generation. – Interviewee #5
.....................
I cannot get my daughter, who’s 14, a fish off our traditional reef. – Interviewee #5
.....................
... the local people saying that there wasn't this species or that species. You had to go out a distance
around about 1 1/2 km for kina – Interviewee #6
9

.....................
...one of the local recreational kaumatuas out at Kairakau and many others that have always said that
there's no legal sized paua around – Interviewee #6
.....................
Maybe like inshore depletion, like there's no easy access– Interviewee #7
.....................
So they always had dry pātiki at their (pokai?) but over the years, as the numbers reduced for whatever
reason, they blamed the commercial fishermen for that. They weren't able to provide that at their
(pokai?) ... Dried pātiki, dried (manu?) and shark liver, which was once upon a time quite plentiful. ...
because they used to (strangle?) pipi onto (toutou?) and they used to be on the table as well and there
is a big decline in that species – Interviewee #8
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So you’re referring to a time of abundance. Is that the case now?
Interviewee #13 – It’s about in the 60s. No.
Interviewee #12– No, absolutely not.
Interviewee #14– Maybe in the lakes and outside of Rotorua, but not here. ... You can still get kōura out
of it. ... It’s not to say that’s it’s not there but in abundance, no.
.....................
... Interviewee #13 - kaumatua talked about a time when the river, it was that plentiful, the watercress,
that it even grew out into the lake, partly around by the lake and my mother talked about a time when
the wharekai was placed right beside the river and when they were young and cooking for the marae,
they could basically just walk outside the backdoor and pick watercress ... that was quite common for
them.
Interviewee #14– [X] got old photographs of, actually of (hangis?) going around ... You can actually still
see the watercress in the river so it was that plentiful. As you see today the river runs down the (?) the
mouth from there, right up past the marae. That’s how plentiful it was. It was just right through the
river and all they talk about was just enough room down the middle of the river that people could
squeeze through on a little boat or something. Other than that it was that full of watercress that
carloads of people whether they were local or from town here would come out at different times to get
watercress
Interviewee 13 – ... everybody would have their little bunches of watercress to take home and I can
remember that quite vividly, actually. Everybody left with their kai. The other kai that they talked about
which was quite plentiful was kākahi. ...she’s 78 now. She talks about an age of being between eight
10

and ten and feeling quite self sufficient to take yourself to the river to get a watercress and get her some
kākahi and then just take it back...
Interviewee 14 –this is the era of the Great Depression. ... passed on that the river fed them, sustained
them, ... because the lake even though a great amount of pollution has happened, they’re still in a fit
enough state to cope with it, unlike it is today.
.....................
... Uncle [X] talked about a time of if you wanted to show off your skill as being a good koura collector,
then you would go to the clay rocks and the lake, ... he said if you were on a short time frame and you
had to get a kai back to the marae, he said, ‘You would dive into the rivers where the raupō were and
get the koura out of that,’ and so he called that the ‘lazy man activity,’ you know, whereas the other one
was the skill of collecting koura [laughs].... Well it was that plentiful. Another koroua... he spoke to us
about a time when he’d go out, he was one of our avid fisherman, and he’d go out and he’d put on a
woollen jersey. He knew there was this hollow log that sat in a certain area of the lake and what he’d
do is he’d dive in, actually dive through the log, come back up, take off the jersey and shake all the koura
out, put it back on and do it again and then head back onto shore and that’s how plentiful and healthy
they were, that they were not just in the river, but they were out in the lake as well. They’re still around
but again when we talk ‘plentiful’ and ‘abundance’ and ‘sustainable,’ the answer’s no. – Interviewee #13
.....................
my mother's family, ... they never ever had meat. ... every three months they'd have a feed of meat to
give to the priest. Otherwise, they lived on fish or the sea, kai<strong>moana</strong> and vegetables that they grew
themselves . ...I can remember the days when we used to say to Mum, my brothers and sisters, ‘What
are we having for tea tonight?’ And Mum would say, ‘Crayfish,’ and we'd say, ‘Not again!’ ... stuff you
could get out in the ocean you could get in the estuary there was that good– Interviewee #15
.....................
... in their 80s still gathering from around the foreshore ... It was just part of their relationship with the
<strong>moana</strong>. ... I have a vision for those days but it certainly needs us. – Interviewee #15
.....................
My grandfather, he used to go out ... That's what we did. It was just abundance out there. There was
just, it was like carpets of fish – Interviewee #15
.....................
...we've only got now pipis left in our estuary, flounder, bit of pātiki, but that's it – Interviewee #15
.....................
we’ve found is that we now have another, we now catch crayfish, whereas before we didn’t. Our old
11

people get a good taste of it now because we give it out to them. – Interviewee #16
.....................
the abundance of fish wasn't as it used to be. In fact, I can remember our kaumatua getting up and
saying, ‘We used to catch fish there, tarakihi at the back of [X] Bay there, on the west side of Cape [X]
But they are no more. Maunganui Bay used to be full of fish, they’re there no more. – Interviewee #17
.....................
we've got photographs that go back to the 50s and then the 60s and 70s and you can see the change is
quite huge. – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So how would you describe the health of the <strong>moana</strong> outside Maketu and the estuary?
Interviewee #19 – Pretty good, pretty good, but it still needs looking after. It still needs looking after
you know, we’ve got so many bloody pumps that are pumping all this water out of these drains for
farmlands and stuff and it’s all going into the Kaituna, into the estuary ... we’ve got to monitor that
water more often than what it’s been monitored by government agencies, you know, we should be
doing it ourselves. If we had the facilities we should be doing it ourselves.
.....................
Is there fish in the water for the community and I think that’s where we’re at for our Tirohia he Huarahi,
aren’t we? We’re hearing from our locals that it’s not that accessible – Interviewee #20
.....................
as a young person in my lifetime and I’m 67, I was able to go down to the beach with my parents and my
grandparents and gather seafood just on the shore. Today that’s not there anymore – Interviewee #22
.....................
...we used to have nets pulling in whitebait, I mean, nets that stretched all leading up to 20 feet wide
and the kids were helping the older people to pull the nets in and they were full and we’d only do that
once and we’d have food for the whole pā. You know, I’m talking about in the 1950s. Now you’d be
lucky to see inanga or whitebait in the river at all. So where has this all gone, sort of come back to the
chemicals and that that have been feeding into the river, the you know, poisoning of the forests and
pine resin and the sap running through the land and getting washed into the waterways, yeah I’ve seen
a lot of changes. ... we used to go down and catch eels ... then we’d just go around the rocks and lift up
the rocks and find a couple of eels ... You can’t see them today. You’ve got to go to an aquarium to see
an eel or go a long, long way into the back to catch them anymore. – Interviewee #22
.....................
12

our mokopuna, they have nothing to see. They only have stories that they hear from us about the
certain types of food and the abundance of the food that was available to us. Without protecting some
of these areas there’s nowhere for our kids to go and learn about the <strong>moana</strong> and Tangaroa and the food
basket of Ahuriri, – Interviewee #22
.....................
I work with the Department of Conservation, and they found spawning grounds in there that, left
untouched, the spawning has increased the number of whitebait in the area ...if we protected for a little
while then nature will take its course. – Interviewee #22
.....................
what we’re finding today in there is that the plankton and food life is there but we haven’t got the fish in
there. – Interviewee #22
.....................
...why doesn’t Moremore come?’ And the meeting house was silent. This is how my uncle answered, he
said, ‘Well he doesn’t need to. There are signs up all over the place. ‘Don’t take the food, it’s poison.’’ –
Interviewee #22
.....................
One of the things here is that we can’t eel in some of our AGMs because of the accumulating heavy
metals, arsenic and mercury. … it’s in the plants and it’s in the fish and our people need to and would
like to be eating those regularly, but we can’t, we wouldn’t, here because of the high cancer risk. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
Rotorua with the flow of all the dirty water that’s going straight down there now and thank God they
put that wall in because it’s helping Rotoiti to recover... So there must be effect on our Kai<strong>moana</strong>
because it goes out the cut. Very little of it goes out the Maketu estuary. I mean it’s controlled by a
control gate and but the people are asking for the river to be returned to the estuary because it’s
affected the way it is now, it’s affected the growth of our kai<strong>moana</strong> in there and because I remember
back in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s, that when the river was flowing straight through the estuary before they
put the cut in and man, it was just full of life of fish. You had sharks coming up, you had sting rays
coming up, you had snapper coming through. You don’t see any of those now. - Interviewee #26
.....................
Interviewer #1 – Okay, brilliant. So what are some of the big changes you’ve seen over the last 20, 30
years in your time of going out to Maketu?
Interviewee #26– Oh, it’s like what I’ve said earlier, when the Kaituna was running through the Maketu
13

estuary it was just abundance of fish
Interviewer #1 – And you feel that the abundance isn’t there?
Interviewee #26– No, nothing
.....................
[Floodgates] restricted the flow and caused a build-up of sand on the Maketu harbour, a bar, and it
depleted a lot of the young fish that the nursery within the estuary, they did not come back in here and
so we lost the inanga. We lost the snapper, trevally, that used to come in and quite a large amount of
eels. We’ve lost the tuangi and the pipis themselves have changed in the way that they’ve become
more sickly looking, compared to what it used to be. – Interviewee #27
.....................
All the cockles used to be huge in the old days. - Interviewee #26
.....................
the pipi beds were well known within Te Arawa, Tauranga, Ngāti Rangi, even Ngāti Awa. It was known
right throughout the motu the abundance of food that you could gather here in Maketu - Interviewee
#27
.....................
Interviewer #1 - how do you feel when you grew up with an access to something that was abundant and
then it’s gone in a short space of time?
Interviewee #27 –it’s hard to explain to my mokopuna what was and what is and that’s the sad part
about it, to grow up in a place like Maketu and how beautiful everything was and the river was so
peaceful, so quiet ... as a young fellow I can remember more people coming from inland to Maketu and
this is in the ‘50s and early ‘60s than there are today because there was an abundance of pipis and
cockles, tuangis, and (titikaus?) but that’s been depleted. The pipi beds have come back, but they are
not the same pipi.
.....................
I can recall the river, practically all year round, right up the side you could travel was full of watercress.
There’s nothing left. - Interviewee #27
.....................
Interviewee #27 - it was one big influx of people that used to come to Maketu to, was just to gather
kai<strong>moana</strong>, whether it was pipis, mussels, kina, even there’s a multitude of (herion?), trevally, kahawai in
our estuary and mullet. They’ve all gone. Kahawai don’t come in this channel anymore, only the stray
ones, but big schools used to come right up. They’ve all gone. ... All the breeding grounds of all the
14

inanga, whitebait, have all disappeared in the lower Kaituna catchment. They’ve been destroyed by the
saline, saltwater and they’ve gone further up the river and there’s not a lot when they come back in
because whitebait always seem to go back to their breeding ground. We don’t get much whitebait in
Maketu anymore.
Interviewer #1 – So a direct result is there’s no kai for the table isn’t it?’
Interviewee #27 – There’s no kai for the table
.....................
Interviewee #27 - Maketu was well known for the kai<strong>moana</strong> and when I was young, there was more
people on that pipi bed and diving than you’ll see today and I’m, that’s really serious about that and
there was just multitudes of people here back in the ‘50s and early ‘60s and the awa and the estuary
deteriorated, saw them dropping off.
Interviewer #1 – So there’s no way you can teach the next generation lessons in relation to the estuary
because there’s nothing there.
Interviewee #27 – No, there’s nothing there. There’s nothing nice about it to talk about. When you, if I
look at the back of the estuary there, they could see what I’m talking about, the fauna and the flora that
was, they’ve all gone, disappeared. There’s an island behind the marae. It’s only half the size of what it
was. There’s an island behind that one four times bigger that completely disappeared because of the
saltwater caused the erosion. The growth of fauna died with the saltwater and the islands eroded.
.....................
Interviewee #27 - I can remember as a young fellow the Kaituna River all the way up there, right up to, it
went as far as the Waitangi Bridge. It was magic. It was like in a different world when you left the urban
locality of Maketu at the time, which was a few hours around, but up there was like going up the, like
the Amazon River. It was magic and I recall all that and it is sand I got there now, just dead (?), dead
everything. Even the flax are dying because the saltwater goes up so far now. … not just the saltwater,
the farm effluent.
Interviewer #1 –… we’ve gone from a state of abundance down to a state of, I guess, (te kore?) isn’t it?
Nothingness?
Interviewee #27 – Nothingness.
.....................
the Kaituna used to wind its way down to Maketu like a snake. They’ve straightened all that river out to
get rid of the water quicker and now the width of the Kaituna would have been, in the old days, some
place 10 metres, some places 15 metres, no wider than that, but used to greeny-coloured water. ... was
still abundant of flax as a young fellow. There was millions of bird life. We didn’t have to go to lengths
to get a fish or a mussel. ... My father went up there once a month because he wanted a feed on the
15

(kakau?), so we went up the Kaituna. You can’t get that up there anymore because of the saltwater,
plus having other deterioration. The watercress grew right along the river as far as I went up the river,
watercress all year round. So therefore there was an abundance of tuna, even trout was down there
and every other fish you could think of and then you come into the estuary and that’s where you found
all the kai<strong>moana</strong>, all the breeding grounds there, that wetlands right inside the estuary there. There was
acres of it and it was where all the inanga went to breed. They didn’t have to go way up the Kaituna...
we used to fish down there in whitebaiting season, there was no trouble to get 30 or 40 kilos of
whitebait a day, not anymore. - Interviewee #27
.....................
Interviewer #1 - You’re famous for the mussel here, aren’t you? Maketu mussels
Interviewee #27 – Yeah, they are being depleted.
.....................
Interviewee #27 - what’s deteriorated today is affecting our people.
Interviewer #1 – So a direct correlation between a healthy environment and a paru environment and the
(arano?) of the people isn’t it?
Interviewee #27 – Yeah
.....................
One of the things we used to do at Rangiwai was as soon as we got a call that there was a tangi we’d all
meet at the tuangi bed and that was the first thing we all did. We all knew it. We didn’t have to ring
each other and say, ‘Meet me at the bed,’ but we went, we’d go and while we were picking tuangi, you
know, we’d be talking about the preparation of the marae, what we needed to do, who’s going to do
what, all of that sort of thing. So although it’s not a <strong>mana</strong>gement regime itself, it’s just something that,
because the tuangi bed is no longer there, we don’t do that anymore. So it’s a practice we’ve lost and
you know, it’s just something that’s sad and that I would like to see reversed and be revived and another
thing was about whanau-level, where the whanau sort of sit in this, is I experienced the special
knowledge of kai preparation over there and the ability to catch a fish is so important on a whanau level
because they are the only ones who knew how to make (Puku?) kōkī and how to do the dried shark and
where that dried kai went and I don’t see that, I never hear of even anymore, people drying shark and
making (Puku?) kōkī out of the liver and stuff. I mean you don’t even get a shark in your net anymore,
but I think, yeah, that needs to be reversed. That needs to be revised - Interviewee #31
.....................
Interviewer #2 – So would you say that the loss of the kai has undermined your social capital?
Interviewee #18b – Yep
16

Interviewer #2 – And could you say how for us ...
Interviewee #18b – The ability to retain [mātauranga] and pass it on. That’s huge social capital, spiritual
well-being, the community strength that grows from that and then you get the by(?) and you get
succession. You get continuity. It’s the social capital that people on the grassroots are in, just fit in,
really.
.....................
Interviewee #18b – Rangiwewehi are the same ... say, ‘If the river’s not well, the people are not well,’ in
all senses of the word.
Interviewee #14b – It’s a little bit like a coin, the coin is you know, one side is just the other side of the
other side and you can’t have one side without the other. That’s really what it is.
Interviewee #5b – So one way, another way of looking at the same thing is like the kai might be the
physical nourishment, but without everything that supports that kai being there then you are looking at
depletion of what else nourishes you, you know, the wairua, the (hine arau?)
.....................
I remember when we used to go out whitebaiting with my Mum, it was never in August. It was always
earlier. It was always around June, May/June. Those were the- and it was plentiful, well I mean
probably the reasons why it’s changed is because of the depletion of those things. I don’t know, but
when you get to August … they’re just about out of season, to us, but I reckon that legislation has
changed access to that too – Interviewee #29
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Have things changed for the better or for the worse for Rakaipaaka?
Interviewee #29 – I reckon for the worse because once those tikanga things start going we just lose our
identity, we lose everything that was transferred to us from our old people, you know, I was thinking,
‘Geez, this is really frustrating having to sit here for hours and getting this much in the bucket or why,
when we used to go way out with our Mums.’ One of the things with tikanga, you never take a big
bucket. We used to end up going home naked because Mum would take all our clothes off to fill up
those with whitebait, but that’s how it was. That’s how it was but you go to the river now, you can sit
there all day and just keep, not worth bloody, rather to let them go.
.....................
some of the research that’s come out from our Koro, Kuia still here with us. It’s not that abundant, is it?
Not in our customary area. Well I’m saying that because just from knowing our customary area –
Interviewee #29
.....................
17

he’s not a scientist but that was one of the biggest and loudest things he said when the Aotearoa
Fisheries and Ngāti Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated CE came to present us with this. He said, ‘Well you
know, I’m not this. I’m not that, but reality tells me if you start touching that stuff we’re going to lose
what we have available at the moment.’ – Interviewee #29
.....................
But we’re still, it’ll be still good for our own knowledge to know, to know that that is plentiful. We know
that it’s there because of the people that go out there that catch the fish and they go and get the kina
and the pāua, monitoring permits not so much that. There’s not so much kina. There’s only one area,
that’s Te Uruti out, they call it Black’s Beach, but it’s Te Uruti is the Māori name for it. That’s the only
area we get that and the rest are surf clams and Tamure and pipi, yeah well, yeah pipi as well –
Interviewee #29
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So do you think the fishery is very abundant and is easily accessible for Rakaipaaka
people?
Interviewee #30 – It’s accessible, it’s accessible
Interviewee #29 – For those who know the abundance
Interviewee #30 – Yeah the people, yeah, I’ve seen a photo of Tom Kane a boat, in the ‘50s and ‘60s, the
ground was littered with big, must have been snapper and that
.....................
the old man would talk about whitebait they used to get full kerosene tins – Interviewee #30
.....................
the whitebait in the river does go right to the awa. Because everybody says the awa is me, I am the
awa. Well that’s it. If your awa is dead well the hapū or the people are dying too – Interviewee #30
18

Recreational Pressure
How does legislation play a role in recreational fishing? How does recreational pressure affect kai<strong>moana</strong>
abundance?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
The current permit system is an inadequate way of regulating take
Some recreational fishers wipe out an entire area’s worth of stock; some take out more people
to get higher take
Non-locals aren’t as aware of the impact they are causing
Pākehās and Asians are taking more than they used to
you've got people using the current permit system as a tool, and forever will be a tool, to get undersized
stuff, sort of mocking it a bit, – Interviewee #4
.....................
Yeah, generally a guy from Gisbourne gets the license for the whole of the coastline I think. ... But
apparently the last time he came down here he did a good job and the beds are only just starting to
return. – Interviewee #6
.....................
...The ordinary person comes out here and gets a thing, they don't care, – Interviewee #15
.....................
that the reason the chappo took 3 kids out was to boost the numbers of kai <strong>moana</strong> he could take and
that’s why he (the boat owner) took three kids out. That was to improve their take so they could take
more.’ that's why they had the kids out. – Interviewee #15
.....................
The last time we went it was ’97, during summer there’s 167 pots and they’re all recreational. None of it
belonged to us and that’s why we get pissed off. – Interviewee #16
.....................
‘During winter there’s 87 damn pots or 97 damn pots out there.’ ... when it comes to summer what
happens is everybody’s got a pot out there, but none of them are commercial and none of them belong
to us and we usually count 142 by November, ...you run into these bloody pots everywhere ... –
Interviewee #16
19

.....................
Every bugger with a diving suit’s out there every day. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Well now you’ve got every Pākehā hunting for pāuas. Pākehās are starting to like kinas. Every Asian,
doesn’t matter where, be it Korean, Chinese or what, they all like it. Then you’ve got every bloody
islander that’s out there, they like it and you can’t feed them because, well, the old people, I don’t know
where they come from but they’re all diving and there’s nothing there. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewee #19 – Oh, I think you know, we’ve got to be careful. We’re getting more and more people
here every summer. More and more people.
Interviewer #1 – So more pressure?
Interviewee #19 – More pressure on our kai<strong>moana</strong>, that’s including the pipis inshore, like you know,
Little Waihi, down here in the summertime. It’s just loaded with people, loaded with people ... Used to
go up on the bank and you know, ‘Hey you Māoris, getting the weekend meat are you?’ [laughs] Christ,
but you know, you can get about, say on a Saturday or a Sunday or public holiday you can get about 40,
50 people in either estuary.
Interviewer #1 – That’s a lot of kai
Interviewee #19 – That’s a lot of kai going out, yeah. People come down here in the busloads, you
know, whether they have permits or not, we don’t know.
Interviewer #1 – But they don’t need a permit. They can get 50 each in their bucket.
Interviewee #19 – 150
...
Interviewer #1 – Okay, so in terms of the changes they’ve been, it’s more of a population pressure really,
isn’t it?
Interviewee #19 – Population explosion. We had Asians coming down here from Auckland and I’m quite
thankful for the guy that runs the camp. He says, ‘[Interviewee #19], you better get down here, there’s a
couple of vanloads and they were scraping the little seedlings off the rocks with paint-scrapers and I
asked one of them that could speak English ... I said, ‘What do you use those for?’ They said they pound
them up for food flavouring.
.....................
20

Interviewee #19 –they put in safety rails and stuff and there’s 20 or 30 people along there and the rest
along the beaches.
Interviewer #1 – What are they catching?
Interviewee #19 – Kahawai mainly, along the beaches further you get the odd snapper and what I like
about it is they’re all getting a kai, they’re all getting a kai.
Interviewer #1 – It’s about getting a kai isn’t it?
Interviewee #19 – Yeah, that’s the bottom line, get a kai. You got the whitebaiters working at the
moment ... you’ll go down there now ... people will stay there all night fishing, all night and yeah, they’ll
take home a kai, you know, whether it’s a half a dozen kahawai or a dozen. At least they’re taking it
back for other people and I haven’t heard of any of them selling it
.....................
people collect kina year round in New Zealand, but in fact, they’re fattest at a particular time in the year
and that’s when would be the normal time to gather kina, but ... everyone just expects to go and access
it, you know, 24/7 – Interviewee #20
.....................
Interviewee #30 - amateur fishermen and that you know, as a sport people do, it’s a sport. It’s their way
of life. It’s their kai because you know, 20 kahawai, but when they’re running you know, you might get
bloody three or four times that much …
Interviewee #29 – That’s common sense stuff.
Interviewer #1 – It totally is, yeah
Interviewee #30 – That’s our way of life, yeah.
Interviewer #1 – It’s not a sport. It’s actually survival-
Interviewee #29 – Our livelihood, yeah
21

Past & Current Impact of Land Uses
What land uses most impact kai<strong>moana</strong>? What is the affect they are having on kai?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Land-use practices have hindered harvesting for decades
Land development, farming and forestry impact kai<strong>moana</strong>
Whitebait and eels are no longer available due to the pollution of rivers through forestry
Raw sewage used to be dumped into the rivers
Lake regulation, diggers dredging rivers, councils removing raupō from rivers due to tourist risks,
draining farm land, diverting rivers, groynes in rivers, agriculture, horticulture, urban
development, population increase, stop banks, land reclamation, dams, culverts, farm pollution,
forestry, sewage etc. have detrimentally affected waterways; no iwi/rangatiratanga control
over these actions
Te Awanga reef is so badly impacted by land-use practices that we haven’t been able to harvest on there
since I was 14. That was 36 years ago, – Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewee #13 - they told us that our watercress had gone because of the lake being regulated and so
what we did is we blamed our watercress going because council was taking off too much water because
that’s what we could see, but scientifically, that’s got to do with that lake and that whole regulation and
the different waters.
Interviewee #14 – ... there were basically a time when they put diggers down the rivers like they do with
drains to clean the rivers out. So they’ve actually ... In a form have dredged the riverbeds as well to
clear all the rubbish out but in doing so, they took all the natural vegetation, everything out of the river
as well, so that had to have had detrimental impact. You add that with the gates and then the further
pollution and no wonder our river’s not as healthy as it was.
Interviewee #13 – The other thing that they removed from our rivers was the raupō growing in the river
and what they were saying was that, with the (kati?) grass and stuff like that, it was a bit of a tourist risk
because kids and tourists would get themselves cut. Having that discussion with the old people, they
understood that the raupō was the natural filtration for the river. So what they have done is taken away
the ecology, you know?
.....................
22

like stuff you could get out in the ocean you could get in the estuary there was that good and that
changed in 1958 when the government at the time subsidised farmers to drain their lands and as a
consequence the Kaituna River was diverted before it got to the estuary and so as a consequence I think
we've only got now pipis left in our estuary, flounder, bit of pātiki, but that's it ... with the trying to drain
lands around here because this was a huge raupō area, ... there's all this pressure from farmers to get
some drainage going so they could use the land for dairying, whatever and that sort of happened late
1950s. There'd been a big flood and so the government helped secure funding to divert the river ... the
Ministry of Works was involved, drainage boards and that and the engineer said, ‘Don’t do it. It's not
going to work,’ and the Ministry of Works, I think, refused to listen and did it and it didn't stop the
flooding, but they put in the thing and then the groyne so it couldn't close again because they used to
deal with it all the time to close up, nature used to close it and that's just how it happens here, put
groynes in to keep it open here. The thing is that it never cured the flooding so that damage was done
and since that time, really, it's just been, the Kaituna River has just been looked at as a big drain. ... Wai
4 which was the claim for the Kaituna, Waitangi Tribunal claim and that happened when (?) Rotorua
District Council were going to put their sewerage in because the Kaituna actually comes from (?) from
Lake Rotoiti it starts and of course the Rotorua District Council at the time were going to put their
sewage raw into pipes and then divert it down to the Kaituna River. ...It didn't matter the damage it had
done, river’s just silted up since, or the estuary has. I think that for all of us in Maketu, the estuary was
why we were here. It's quite emotional actually, so the estuary, the families that were standing by the
estuary, it was just our culture really, and the estuary was why we were here. – Interviewee #15
.....................
When I first came out to Waihou with my [X] I was 16, watercress was all up and down the river. We
could go there now and you could hardly find any, you know, it’s a good 25 years later. So you know,
the obvious ones, the sedimentation, (?) nutrient loading from the surrounding farmlands, all of those
things that have impacted on our waterways, but really the probably biggest significant influence on
that has been the local authorities and I guess, the disconnection between the iwi and the local
authorities historically in that there were no dialogue between them to, for us to share the loss of those
resources and also, I guess, they had no taringa at the time to hear any of the kōrero so thankfully that’s
starting to change but yeah, that’s a huge question. I think it boils down to the loss of rangatiratanga
over the ability to control the land and what it was used for which has created the situation we have
now. – Interviewee #18
.....................
You got to be so careful, like one time they had a contract digging the pipeline, well they were supposed
to go underground across the pipi bed at (Rowaihi?) to (Pukehina?) to this water main, but they’re
supposed to go underground. Apparently he ran into trouble and so he used a bloody digger, going in at
low tide and digging up this trench and these people ring me up from (Rowaihi?) says, ‘Jesus
[Interviewee #19], you better get down here!’ So I got down there and I thought, ‘Oh Christ,’ and I
stopped the contract work. I stopped the contract work. I said, ‘Listen, we’re going to have to talk
about this because you’re going over pipi beds and stuff,’ and he said, ‘Oh I don’t think there’s any pipi
beds here. ...,’ I said that’s by-the-by, they move.’ I said they move so we closed the whole operation
23

down – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #22- Some of the big changes I’ve seen is the, what seems to be a rush towards land
development, farming, forestry, we seem to have this slash-and-burn attitude whereby we fill the land
up with trees, we cut it all down, we fill the land up with food which is good, with the horticulture,
viticulture and the growing of grain and corn and all that, but there comes, there’s a cause and effect
there that, the affect on that is the (super?) and the chemicals that are put into land, which then flows
on into the waterways and that downstream affect kills the life form in the waters.
Interviewer #1 – Huge impact isn’t it?
Interviewee #22– Yes and we used to see, I can remember fishing with my uncles and aunties as a young
fellow on the Ngaruoro River and we used to have nets pulling in whitebait, I mean, nets that stretched
all leading up to 20 feet wide and the kids were helping the older people to pull the nets in and they
were full and we’d only do that once and we’d have food for the whole pā. You know, I’m talking about
in the 1950s. Now you’d be lucky to see inanga or whitebait in the river at all. So where has this all
gone, sort of come back to the chemicals and that that have been feeding into the river, the you know,
poisoning of the forests and pine resin and the sap running through the land and getting washed into
the waterways, yeah I’ve seen a lot of changes. Eels, we used to go down and catch eels during the day,
... You can’t see them today. You’ve got to go to an aquarium to see an eel or go a long, long way into
the back to catch them anymore.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – It is a shame. It is a shame. So what would be the things that have impacted on that,
do you think? What’s impacted on-
Interviewee #22– Well I think it’s land development, farming, cropping and you know, today, I go up the
road, ...‘Well I thought the side of the road belonged to the local authority and you weren’t allowed to
grow on there,’ but these vineyards are growing right up to the road. Who gives authority for that, you
know, I’d like to know where did they get the resource consent to do that and you know, there’s a lot of
things going on that we are not privy to. We’re not part of the decision-making in terms of how the land
gets developed. It just seems to be wholesale, you know, just willy-nilly. Now there’s so many vineyards
and horticulture and agriculture on the plains the rivers are drying up during, long before summer
comes around. The water take off there must be incredible and, but we don’t know about this
.....................
...we had stories, which were quite old, some of them, about the loss of, but the changes in there,
because we had a motorway put through, we’ve had culverts put in there. The flow of the food through
there has been controlled and the entry of the larger fish, to a degree, has been controlled. –
Interviewee #22
.....................
24

the estuary is right alongside the industry ... most of the runoff and waste water was running straight
into the estuary. ... I can remember not too long ago when the sewer from the Napier hospital flowed
straight into the (Scarpa??), raw sewer, and we used to sit there at lunchtime watching it. – Interviewee
#22
.....................
One of the things here is that we can’t eel in some of our AGMs because of the accumulating heavy
metals, arsenic and mercury. It makes all of our kuia (?) because of contact, (Wairaki?) and so, you
know, it’s in the plants and it’s in the fish and our people need to and would like to be eating those
regularly, but we can’t, we wouldn’t, here because of the high cancer risk. – Interviewee #24
.....................
Interviewee #26 - I think there’s been, there is an impact, mainly from you know, the dairy units,
farming, that sort of thing that has impacted on our environmental issues that we have. And it has
affected some of the breeding grounds, I suppose, of our fish and not so much the you know, the kuku
and all that, the shellfish. I think one of the issues for Maketu in the estuaries, in Maketu estuary and
the (little Waihi?) estuary’s is, I suppose it is quality, water quality and for Maketu estuary it’s been
more the flow of the fresh water, of the Kaituna River flowing out towards the cut, …
Interviewer #1 – And you’ve, the Kaituna’s had some heavy pollutants hasn’t it? Over the years? In
fact, there’s a Waitangi Tribunal claim around it, isn’t there?
Interviewee #26 – From the, yeah from the dairy units all up the Kaituna
.....................
Rotorua with the flow of all the dirty water that’s going straight down there now and thank God they
put that wall in because it’s helping Rotoiti to recover... So there must be effect on our Kai<strong>moana</strong>
because it goes out the cut. Very little of it goes out the Maketu estuary. I mean it’s controlled by a
control gate and but the people are asking for the river to be returned to the estuary because it’s
affected the way it is now, it’s affected the growth of our kai<strong>moana</strong> in there and because I remember
back in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s, that when the river was flowing straight through the estuary before they
put the cut in and man, it was just full of life of fish. You had sharks coming up, you had sting rays
coming up, you had snapper coming through. You don’t see any of those now, but my understanding of
the, something like 10, 15 years, they’re thinking of putting it back into the, in the next couple of years. -
Interviewee #26
.....................
the Kaituna used to wind its way down to Maketu like a snake. They’ve straightened all that river out to
get rid of the water quicker – Interviewee #27
.....................
25

Interviewee #27 - [Land use] has damaged the waterways, the effluent coming off the lands and other
than the effluent, the native other pine that they planted further up the river when they fell, when we
get a big storm we see all the other bits along that come floating down the river, clogs up around the
estuary and the Kaituna cut up the river there and that’s only happened since the pine was planted, but
the farmlands that have been created along the river banks and the kiwi fruit orchards have been just
detrimental to the health of the river.
Interviewer #1 – What’s the, Maketu estuary had some floodgates put in didn’t it?
Interviewee #27 – ... Yes, it restricted the flow and caused a build-up of sand on the Maketu harbour, a
bar, and it depleted a lot of the young fish that the nursery within the estuary, they did not come back in
here and so we lost the inanga. We lost the snapper, trevally, that used to come in and quite a large
amount of eels. We’ve lost the tuangi and the pipis themselves have changed in the way that they’ve
become more sickly looking, compared to what it used to be.
.....................
Interviewee #27 – Further up the Kaituna, there was the milling done, but not actually a mill. There was
a mill in Waitangi, there, and the other bad thing is the Waiati Stream in Te Puke that feeds into the
Kaituna River, is where the Te Puke sewerage scheme runs into ... and all the sprays, now you’ve got kiwi
fruit orchards that are on the boundaries of the river banks and what they spray those orchards with,
with a bit of rain, will naturally end up in the river and the health of the river has deteriorated that bad.
I can recall the river, practically all year round, right up the side you could travel was full of watercress.
There’s nothing left. - Interviewee #27
.....................
to me, the major problem is the drainage they’ve done on wetlands. They’ve more than tripled them,
just to get rid of the water faster and naturally all of the cowsheds, all of them have settling ponds. And
what happens when there’s a heavy rain? It just leaches into the drains and into the rivers. ... Every year
we get a warning from the health department passed over the radio, ‘Don’t eat shellfish.’ Nonsense,
that never used to exist. The law of what should be broadcast over the radio is, ‘No more toxins will be
fed into your waterways to damage your seafood.’ That’s what it should be telling us over the radio.
Not ‘Don’t eat shellfish because of the high level of toxins.’ We’ve been listening to that for years and
done nothing about it. - Interviewee #27
.....................
Interviewee #27 - It was magic and I recall all that and it is sand I got there now, just dead (?), dead
everything. Even the flax are dying because the saltwater goes up so far now. ... And the, not just the
saltwater, the farm effluent.
Interviewer #1 – ... we’ve gone from a state of abundance down to a state of, I guess, (te kore?) isn’t it?
Nothingness?
26

Interviewee #27 – Nothingness.
.....................
if you drain the wetlands for farming, the wetlands are the core of protection for our <strong>moana</strong>, for our
other awa, if you don’t have that protective thing there, that’s contributing to the death of our spirit as
well you know, our rivers start to get polluted and our <strong>moana</strong> starts to become, because there’s no sieve
between anymore. Or for economic development for who, you know, and for how long? And I suppose
that’s looking at it from a Western perspective, the economic development side of things is, that’s only
one aspect of the mauri of us as a people, as, you know, our connection to the land, to everything. It is
taking away those things that mean so much to us – Interviewee # 29b
.....................
I think one of the other things, too, impacting on our rohe<strong>moana</strong> is the silting. You go up in the airplane
and you see all that silting coming out from the ngutu awa into the <strong>moana</strong> so that would be one of the
big impacts, silting out into the maona and that would probably be a result of harvesting, forestry or
deforestation – Interviewee #29
.....................
Farming, yeah, that is a big impact and estuaries whitebait really, yeah so it’s very small amount and
that’s because a lot of those estuaries right from the awa cattle grazing from the banks destroying all
their habitats – Interviewee #30
27

Aspirations for Abundance
What is important to the Māori community in terms of kai<strong>moana</strong> abundance? How can these goals be
achieved?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
The health of the iwi is deteriorating due to high rates of diabetes. This is because kai<strong>moana</strong>
isn’t available and is being substituted with Pākehā foods.
Kai<strong>moana</strong> is an expression of <strong>mana</strong> and <strong>mana</strong>akitanga and is vital to values, beliefs, and identity
Mātauranga Māori should be included in environmental programmes; noa forms of
sustainability like closing off areas should be used
Plentiful, accessible kai<strong>moana</strong> <strong>mana</strong>ged by iwi without government interference is a utopia.
Also good relationships between community and government and government resources are
needed.
Abundance = sustainability of the resource, being able to demonstrate kaitiakitanga, species
choice, plentiful fish, healthy environment; goals also include future generations’ ability to have
access to kai, better awareness between communities, restoration and preservation of kai,
sustainable takes, growing Indigenous knowledge,
Plans for the future include educating fishermen, reseeding and setting up aquaculture farms,
creating pātaka systems
It's about sustainability. – Interviewee #2
.....................
our main concern really is not so much the foreshore and seabed, but it's our rivers, tidy up our rivers,
the health of our rivers. – Interviewee #3
.....................
I can remember when I was a kid, that would be the ideal world. If we're talking about mahinga kai then
I would be going back 50+ years where fish was plentiful, eels were plentiful, kahawai were plentiful and
there've been no barriers on quota or limits on what one can catch. ...I suppose those days are gone
now because we had to be able to store fish for the winter. That would be my ideal world, fish was
plentiful. – Interviewee #3
.....................
28

But yeah, my utopia would be the like that my ancestors, in terms of fish anyway, would have no
problems. – Interviewee #3
.....................
I’d like to see environmental revitalisation, some sort of overlap with mātauranga Māori. – Interviewee
#5
.....................
Interviewer #1 -If you had a utopia for the Kairakau Lands Trust, if you had a free, a blank canvas on how
the <strong>moana</strong> looks and you were the person that set the rules and the standards and everything for that
rohe, what does that picture look like [X]?
Interviewee #6 – Plenty of kai<strong>moana</strong>,
Interviewee #7 – Yeah
Interviewee #6 – Closer to shore and accessible and onsite kaitiaki that have <strong>mana</strong>gement guidelines or
just guidelines with how they issued permits and a plan to how they <strong>mana</strong>ge the rohe <strong>moana</strong>, little
interfering from the government [laughs] good relationships with community, lots of enforcement,
100% compliance [laughs]. You said ‘utopia’.
.....................
We wanted the long-term objective is about kaitiakitanga. It is about being able to demonstrate
kaitiakitanga now and in the future. It's also about sustainability of resourcing and it's also going back to
using some of the traditional noa forms of how sustainability goes including closed areas, (erama?), but
the long-term objective of such a plan was to make sure there was kai for our tamariki and their tamariki
and their (kiatu?) and using today's environment, we thought that the plan would move us somewhere
down that track. – Interviewee #11
.....................
That picture looks like an abundance. It looks like species choice. It looks like healthy environment. It
looks like better awareness between all communities, yeah and it looks like an abundance for all in a
sustainable way. – Interviewee #11
.....................
we needed to clearly identify areas that could be set aside say, for the children and you know, family
areas and other areas that could be set aside for fishermen so that that clash, we could at least educate
them. We did talk about setting up things such as aquaculture farms, looking at reseeding the awa with
both – the main focus was actually koura, but we did also note that the possibility if we could get the
funding and plus the expertise, which is more important, looking at freshwater, indigenous freshwater
fish. – Interviewee #14
29

.....................
the taiāpure at Maketu was to preserve the kai there. – Interviewee #14
.....................
‘first things first.’ Let’s look after ourselves and our rohe, make sure we can get things working and
growing again and sustainable and then we start looking beyond the rohe and then the long-term future
for the nation, ... – Interviewee #14
.....................
Restoration and trying to preserve what's there in the meantime, sustainable takes, staying at that level
once it's restored, preserving and sustaining, ... to grow that Indigenous knowledge ...because we
haven't been able to fish like we used to and in quantities, we've lost a lot of knowledge. .... We didn't
want no money, we just wanted our river back ... we don't want money. We want to have what we used
to have back again and I think that's our achievement, that's what we’re after. – Interviewee #15
.....................
That’s the utopia is everybody’s got a pātaka, we close it during winter and we will guard it. Now
summer we open it up then you have a fisheries officer or somebody standing on our beaches with a
tent saying, ‘Come one and all, go diving but you’ve got to go through here,’ ... then we’re away and
then reseeding, reseeding every winter for five years. Then doing a stock take of what’s out there again,
having a look and then start again for another five years. So that you’re no longer, then you’ll help
nature, then you’ll help guard what they’ve got. Then you leave it. We have heaps of kai for that, but
what we don’t have is heaps of food in there for it to eat so we need to reseed, reseed, that’s my utopia.
– Interviewee #16
.....................
It’s good to have a post in the ground. ... I try to simplify how I look at the fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement
challenges and to me, there’s no need for a KRA document of the Ministry that’s 30 pages deep. To me,
there’s one KRA, how much kai<strong>moana</strong>’s on the table. If I’m an amateur fisherman or fisherwoman and
I’m wanting to go and catch a couple of kahawai from my local river mouth, am I able to? That’s a real
simple KRA. If I am looking to dive for kai for a tangi, can I get paua and kina reasonably enough? You
know, that’s a simple KRA. Commercially, can I go and catch my allocation of quota easily enough
without having to you know, have a huge catch-per-unit effort trying to achieve that? So to me, it’s
quite a simple KRA. Is there fish in the water for the community – Interviewee #20
.....................
What are the challenges for the next generation? Again I would put it in the same simple KRA format,
you know, what is the other, next generation able to ensure that the generation behind them have
access to kai<strong>moana</strong>. It’s that simple, to me. The, I like the idea of where you go ahead two or three
30

generations and then look back. I mean I think that’s quite a good way to look at how you should
<strong>mana</strong>ge, will have that in your mind, you know. So effectively, try and think like the next generation and
look back – Interviewee #20
.....................
the driving force behind the mātaitai, obviously, is conservation. We want to be able to ensure that the
kai in our <strong>moana</strong> is there for all New Zealanders (mairamau?) that we are able to go and get this, ... as a
young person in my lifetime and I’m 67, I was able to go down to the beach with my parents and my
grandparents and gather seafood just on the shore. Today that’s not there anymore and there’s a
number of reasons for that but ... we believe that by putting in some protection mechanisms and some
constraints around our waterways and our beaches that it will assist to bring back the kai that was
abundant and we could all enjoy, once again, the foods of Tangaroa– Interviewee #22
.....................
There is a lot of diabetes in our Iwi which is directly attributable to our genetic disposition to seafood
and our genetic inability to cope with dairy products, sugar and wheaten foods as well as Pākehā
genetics. So our [inherent] taste for kai<strong>moana</strong> and our ability to put kai<strong>moana</strong> on the table is very
important. – Interviewee #25
.....................
Most important reason for kai<strong>moana</strong> is the <strong>mana</strong> of the tupapaku i.e. tangihanga and provision for the
guests and mourners to be able to concentrate on the relationship aspects of the funeral rather that the
day to day requirement s of hosting. In this regard the Kai<strong>moana</strong> is an expression of the ability and
knowledge to provide for the hapū and guests. – Interviewee #25
.....................
if the fish is getting fished out, it seems to make sense that we start restocking. Does the Act support
that as (?) through the RMA that we can actually go there to develop that, I mean, whether it’s marine
or freshwater, I mean, that’s where we’re headed is land-based freshwater act, well, for us and the
(Kuratau?), it’s the freshwater resources, land-based, of course, because of the RMA issues about watertaking,
discharge and blah, blah, blah, but does the Fisheries Act have any mechanisms in there to
support that or anything like that? It seems quite fundamental if it’s being fished out, well put some in –
Interviewee #18b
.....................
to a lot of <strong>tangata</strong> whenua those are important things, the lifeblood of the awa, whether it’s the Wairoa
River or the Nuhaka or Mohaka. That’s a very important thing. Not just to get a few whitebait on the
table but that’s sort of like the tuna is their <strong>mana</strong> and the crayfish and the kai<strong>moana</strong> is the <strong>mana</strong> of
Rongomaiwahine sort of thing because, I’m not saying the whitebait is the <strong>mana</strong> of Rakiapaaka but you
know, the best thing if you haven’t got that, you’re disempowered, your own kai – Interviewee #30
31

Kaitiaki Action
What are the kaitiaki doing to bring about change to the rate of loss of kai?
Summary of key points:
Reseeding kai
furthering Māori education to better understand Treaty rights
trying to gain better relations with Crown and therefore have more input into decisions
increase capacity building within iwi
exercising kaitiakitanga customary law
Quotes:
we <strong>mana</strong>ged to convince the Minister to keep each foreshore and seabed team. – Interviewee #3
.....................
when the mussels were getting too heavy for the float, ... they are just getting weight on them and it's
sinking the float. Then we have to dive down to the bottom and pull them back up and just keep
thinning them out, putting more lines up. We only started off with two lines, now we've got 20 because
we've had to take them off and grow them, seed them out onto another line. – Interviewee #4
.....................
When I went away to study, I studied the Treaty of Waitangi and I realised what my rights were to this
land that I had inherited. ... as far as I am concerned, they are interfering with my undisturbed rights
under Article Three. I refuse to pay rates, basically because my parents, ... gave a lot of their land for the
roads, for the schools, for reserves, for libraries, for recreational use-– Interviewee #9
.....................
18 months ago, the iwi only had one employee ...that poor secretary had to look after every entity in the
iwi marae and that was only 18 months ago. ... 18 months down the track we have a staff of 22 ... we’re
actually in a position of <strong>mana</strong>ging growth, rather than growth’s just upon you and then what do you do.
– Interviewee #13
.....................
we actually raised over $5,000 through the web site from whanaus all around the world that couldn’t
get home but wanted to– Interviewee #13
.....................
33

There was absolute commitment, like we had this background in Maketu and we were just really
clinging for our lives so there was an absolute commitment and the estuary, you know, it looks at us
every day. It was all part of that. – Interviewee #15
.....................
they wanted to sink the boat into our rohe. ... so now we have this boat, but the boat, there was three
reasons why we bought the boat. ... The first one was because we were linked to the boat, we didn't
want to go down with it so... The second thing was there was some economic upside through divers’
fees and maybe some intellectual properties stuff but we haven't tested that yet. The third thing was
the fishery enhancement, which was another primary reason ... it was really built around an economic
base for the community because we knew that it sort of put us into that tourism spectrum as it were. ...
it was a symbol of our kaitiakitanga. It was our pō, that was in the ground that no one could take it
away from us. It was exercising kaitiakitanga. – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewer #1 - And so the rāhui has been in effect for?
Interviewee #17– Since March this year and to support it, we did this brochure. Now we know it has no
legal traction from a L-A-W point of view, but we were exercising kaitiaki customary law, and to me, we
have a right under the Treaty to do that, but people still go in there and fish and all we can do is shoo
them away and I know that that cause (eruptions?) inside the Ministry of Fisheries-
34

Problem Recognition
What have iwi identified as the problems? How are these identified and what solutions are offered?
Summary of key points:
Problems include commercial fishing; reliance on funding; the Crown’s lack of recognition of
Treaty rights; people taking advantage of the permit system; not being able to collect fish (which
is a birthright) to teach younger generations; no accessibility of kai due to depletion; compliance
costs; species that don’t occur naturally anymore have to be farmed now (which affects
heritage); Fishing permit costs for those gathering for marae; consents by businesses to put
sewage in waterways; councils diverting rivers; farmers taking precedence over iwi in the eyes
of the Crown; Fisheries officers/laws denying elders the right to gather kai for themselves; the
number of people reliant on kai<strong>moana</strong> increases every year; councils breaching the RMA in
regards to development affecting the fishery; pine forestry polluting water; L-A-W not coinciding
with L-O-R-E; the Crown definition of ownership ‘I’ conflicting with the Māori definition ‘we’;
University & Crown systems challenge Māori belief systems; tangi are legally recognised as
occasions for customary gathering, but other celebrations are not; council reps don't adequately
inform or represent the people under them
Solutions include mātaitai; replacing stock; rangitahi stepping in to ensure kai is available to
elders; conducting research studies on kai<strong>moana</strong> areas to identify problems with species;
monitoring catch; need more recognition of <strong>tangata</strong> whenua by Crown, aquaculture; looking
after the wellbeing of future generations; concentrate on the health of rivers; creating plans to
restore rivers; gazetting areas so that kai<strong>moana</strong> stops declining; creating rāhui/ no-take areas to
let fish stock increase; creating Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans and being pro-active; grassroots
projects/local community taking action
Kaitiakitanga should be exercised in order to maintain the health of the <strong>moana</strong>
Some iwi research has shown that it is Māori locals who are depleting the resource more than
Pākehā
The value of the <strong>moana</strong> and waterways is inherent in holistic Māori culture
Quotes:
doing visual tests ... we did find that the stocks ... had changed over the years. So what we looked for
was a solution in that to, or something to preserve the stocks– Interviewee #2
.....................
our main concern really is not so much the foreshore and seabed, but it's our rivers, tidy up our rivers,
the health of our rivers. ... I mean the (Morehaka?), Waihua River and the Waikari River. There's a lot of
work that needs to be done– Interviewee #3
.....................
[we] were spending a lot more time with our older people and hearing the stories and their dreams of
what they wanted. Since we were young, we've got the legs, we have got the motivation and have
35

some other technical skills that our older people don't have are just not as fast as we are, we could help
them out and because their dreams are our dreams too in the thing was, was that they wanted to see
something before they passed away– Interviewee #4
.....................
we had pots along the transect and we would do day and night dives on them to see if there's any
difference. Then we would actually, before the pot was pulled up, we would dive down to that pot to
see how much crayfish were on the outside of the pot and how much was inside ... – Interviewee #4
.....................
but now we are also, we've got a stunted growth, like the native mussel, down in the front there and
there's so much of that they are competing for food so they are really small. – Interviewee #4
.....................
That was another barrier, people would always blame something else and I started to think, well that's a
natural human thing isn't it? Instead of blaming ourselves, whereas a matter of fact, it was us and this is
all proved. All these rāhui and research that we found out, they've realised it's us and it's ourselves. It's
not, a lot of the things when we did (?) surveys, people, local people used to see these flash boats go
out, come back in, ‘Oh, there's 6 rods on there that means he's taken his quota, 20 fish per person,’ and
I was like, ‘Dear, oh dear, when are we going to understand that it's ourselves?’ That’s why we did (?)
survey, to write down, get the information down because people are still blaming the Pākehā. –
Interviewee #4
.....................
here's a typical example, Pākehā goes out, flash boat, with the biscuit and everything, dive gear and
stuff, comes back, two kahawai, so happy, over the moon about these two kahawai, Māori go out, two
boats, two big bins full of kahawai, still not happy and then uses it for cray bait, you know, come on,
Pākehā just went out for a feed. – Interviewee #4
.....................
...you've got people using the current permit system as a tool, and forever will be a tool, to get
undersized stuff, sort of mocking it a bit, ... So eliminate that, you'd have a particular boat that goes out,
that does all the harvesting for customary. ... eliminating a whole lot of illegal stuff and then you've got
to catch going to where it's supposed to go. That catch would also be monitored. It will be measured.
It will be recorded. – Interviewee #4
.....................
The Coastal Hapū Collective is that fish is one of the many resource issues, resource <strong>mana</strong>gement issues
that face the coastal hapū. We’re also interested in education, justice, agriculture, anything economic
around the vitality of a hapū– Interviewee #5
36

.....................
I cannot get my daughter, who’s 14, a fish off our traditional reef. It’s as simple as that. It’s just the
birthright, to be well. – Interviewee #5
.....................
I think, be more prescriptive at a governance level around picking up those tools that [X] and [X] have
devised, because they’re strong tools but I don’t think we’ve- we’re a long way from adequately utilising
them– Interviewee #5
.....................
the local people saying that there wasn't this species or that species. You had to go out a distance
around about 1 1/2 km for kina ... a lot of our people don't have boats – Interviewee #6
.....................
part of the Crown resource is the Navy and if there's a partnership we ought to have the right to
whatever information they give to the Ministry and to be also forthcoming to <strong>tangata</strong> whenua, whether
it be iwi or hapū. – Interviewee #6
.....................
The other one I thought of was [muffled] just some recognition of who <strong>tangata</strong> whenua are. –
Interviewee #7
.....................
we needed to be looking at around the <strong>mana</strong>gement of the kai<strong>moana</strong> in the area and how we were
going to do that. – Interviewee #8
.....................
the common denominator amongst everybody was we wanted to ban commercial fishing. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
I suppose that's why we sort of headed down the track of mātaitai, first of all, is that it would achieve
our outcome of wanting to remove commercial fishing. It would also give us that opportunity to look at
how can we start looking at replacing and we also knew that it would give us the opportunity to look at
research that could be done around us three species and surveys that we could be doing. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
37

when we ... let MeF know we were picking the seaweed up off the beach ... they stopped us and they
said, ‘No,’ we had to get a licence to do that and then we had to get the seaweed we picked off the
beach and take it over to Whitianga to their premises and have it weighed to see how much we were
taking from the sea. ... It was 1 hour 20 minutes to get the seaweed from our house to MFish and then 1
hour 20 minutes back. We felt that that was another obstacle that was put in our way to advance our
farm. ... each species that we intended, or we were researching, we had to get a special licence. Each
licence were costing $1000 or more. – Interviewee #9
.....................
if you go back and look at the pre-Settlement documents about what Rauru was all about, it was about
revitalisation of a number of areas which have been lost over time ... honouring our tūpuna and
providing a future for our tamariki mokopuna became the overall goal of why we would A) enter into
settlement, and because we had fought so hard in the negotiations in settlement, we did a lot of reading
about where we thought various government departments were going in terms of meeting their
statutory obligations. We felt by having a good relationship with MFish in the early days we could read
into the future about where we thought the whole regulatory body was going in terms of our kai<strong>moana</strong>,
our taonga species that we felt as if this plan or a plan of sorts, would be an intergenerational plan and if
we were to give proper (credies?) to our kaitiakitanga, this was one way in which we could support that
kaupapa of sustainability, not only for us, this generation but going forward. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Interviewee #12 - I guess the ironic thing about it all is that we now have to farm watercress and kākahi
and even koura. They’re not naturally, they don’t naturally grow anymore.
Interviewee #14– So in other words, we’re having to perform our own interventions to try and reclaim
back ... not just our traditional resources, but our heritage.
.....................
traditionally, our old people would just stand outside their backdoor basically and fish, but now you
actually have to have a licence to fish and I understand that the licences cost $90 for a child or a 140 for
a family. ... some of our guys that go to collect the kai for tangi and stuff, nine times out of ten don’t
hold licences, have always (mahi’ed?) kai for the marae and for their families and politically they’re
called ‘poachers,’ ... but for us, they’re actually part of our pātaka kai because they’re not just get the
fish, they get the wild pork. They’re the guys that are there boning the meat, if we need it, you know?
There’s that whole tikanga aspect that we’re now trying to be in (wanahau?) about that because our
boys are saying, ‘I got a $2000 fine for poaching off your river.’ And we know that that’s our river, ...
that’s $2000 that’s not going to our families, that’s having to go to a whole other court system and stuff
– Interviewee #13
.....................
Could be better for a number of reasons. We believe and it’s being proved that there’s less water
coming out of [the Awahou] due to some of the improvements to the lake. We’ve been told they were
38

improvements, such as the Ohau Channel gates. They control the water level of Lake Rotorua. What
appears to happen now, and it has been proved, is once those gates are either fully closed or even
partially closed that there’s a backup of water which does end up in our river. In terms of health-wise,
that means not enough water being pushed through to clear the river, so sediments and such. ...
There’s a second tributary to the Awahou River. That goes through farmland so what you’re getting up
there is the runoff, whether it be from fertiliser being used on the farming land. We’re not 100 percent
certain it still is, but there was a time when as a lot of farmers used to do, where they just pumped the
milk shed waste directly into the river. ... as soon as you have a steady rain as we do today, then the
river turns green and you can really see the full runoff from the farming further up central road. –
Interviewee #14
.....................
like I said it's a big drain, so the first, and one of the excuses for not putting the river back when it didn't
work was the, by that time the Rangiuru Freezing works had been built and they used to put their raw
offal into that river. They've gradually cleaned up their act but it's still, they still have a consent to put
some stuff in there. The other consent is held by Environment Bay of Plenty and that's a consent to
divert, now Rotorua’s nitrogen and phosphorus, which is destroying the lakes. They've built that Ohau
channel wall and that diverts Rotorua's paru down the Kaituna as well so the biggest, apart from the loss
of the natural environment, the biggest thing is the nitrogen pollutants, storm water pollutants,
Tauranga City Council, they just got a comprehensive storm water discharge to discharge into the
Kaituna, their storm water for Papamoa and we fought that– Interviewee #15
.....................
the farmers take precedence because they (Environment BOP) are there to look after the river and
drainage scheme mandated by government, so they(Environment BOP) look after them. ... the river
and drainage scheme have precedence over <strong>tangata</strong> whenua so really it all comes down to a lack of
political power. ...The estuary's name is Ongataro(?). ... so we took back the name recently. Ongataro
is the name of the estuary so the Environment Bay of Plenty has finally listened to the people ...there's a
huge plan around that how to restore the river, the remaining wetlands, all that sort of stuff, but that's
all about trying to bring back, that's all about being kaitiaki because we've got nothing so we've got to
restore it all we've got to put it back. – Interviewee #15
.....................
we’d go along and talk to the elders there and one of the biggest things they all said is that, yep, it
wasn’t so much that we were going to take a piece of the land and make it a gazetted area, it was that
we needed to look after it because they said, ‘Well, the shellfish and all that are declining so we need to
close them.’ We couldn’t take the whole area that used to be there. We just needed to take a bit to
start off and we hoped that everybody would follow in the years to come. Well, starting from then, I got
them all to sign and they’re all and the things they said at that time, ‘Nah, close the bloody thing.’ –
Interviewee #16
.....................
39

Our long term objective was for us to always be able to go to the <strong>moana</strong> and get a feed, doesn’t matter
where we were or who we were as long as they were able to go and get what they want. See, I had a
Nana that ate pāuas about this big and she’d just go down and just get her kit and then go down and get
them. Well one day there was this ornery fisheries person was there. And she still went to get them
and he tried to stop her ... And she didn’t take any notice and in the end I told them to let her go. ... I
said, ‘Their grandmother’s been doing this for the last 80 years. You ain’t going to stop her.’ –
Interviewee #16
.....................
So that’s one of the reasons why we chose the mātaitai so we can actually make a difference in fishing in
there. – Interviewee #16
.....................
but the thing is there’s more and more people eating our food. – Interviewee #16
.....................
With the development of housing and coastal plans and in particular, the roads that ... haven't been tarsealed
for 32 years, it appeared to us that there was a breach by the councils themselves in the RMA Act
and the impacts and causes that was affecting the fishery– Interviewee #17
.....................
we understood the mangroves and the sea grass as particular areas of breeding for small fish, scallops,
pipi, rock oysters, kūtai and the like and we knew that the negative impact on these species also
affected the fishery as a whole. What we do understand is that what affects the fishery in one area will
affect it somewhere else so other areas like the Kawakawa River pollution was another effect that we
were concerned about– Interviewee #17
.....................
we have a holistic view of the whenua and the <strong>moana</strong>. ... our values and our principles that we live by in
a society structure that we have built up over the many generations is built around the sea and the land,
so it's always been inbred in us to take care of the land and the sea, which includes the fishery because
in doing so it will take care of us. So those values are inherent in the way we live and they still are. –
Interviewee #17
.....................
the sea grass meadows are of vital importance because of the role it plays in harbouring eggs and
allowing small fish to grow. We've undertaken our own studies on the sea grass meadows and I will
make those available to you. We just finished a big study. – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewee #17 - we could see this slick on the water ... it was starting to come into the rocks and I
went down and felt it and it was oil, pine oil, that had been given off from the pine trees. ... well it's an
oil and it lapped itself up onto the rocks and then ... It gathers on the water and so as the tide moves in
40

and out this slick just goes, ... that answered my question as to why the rock oysters, they are there no
more and so we took the water samples ... And we got them analysed and it was pine oil and we got a
report back from a Northern Regional Council scientist, or water analyst, and he concurred with us that
that would damage the, it suffocates apparently, suffocates the shellfish. ... we’ve since encouraged the
owner of the pine forest to cut the trees down, which he is going to do in the next five years. ... the
boys tell me, ‘No, that happens every September.’ And he says, ‘If you go around the other side, the Bay
is loaded with it.’... Coastal pine, and I think there's some recognition that it is destructive. ... And I think
at 90 mile Beach there’s one area where it's been linked to the loss of the toheroa [cross dialogue]
Interviewer #1 – It’s been attributed to the loss there?
Interviewee #17– Yeah, from my understanding, it was having effects on the Toheroa stock because they
suck it in.
.....................
Interviewee #18 - a kōrero we had around fishing for trout, ... they’re one of the main food sources for
our old people. The law, L-A-W allows for fishing right up to our bridge back at the main road from the
wahapū right to the bridge, however, when we were developing our iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plan ... one of our
kuia told us when they were kids they weren’t allowed to touch the trout once they got past the
wahapū. Once they got off the awa it was hands off. They got past you, leave them alone. They are
going to spawn. If you can’t catch them out of the lake you’ve got to leave them alone and I grabbed
that and I said, ‘Hey, that’s an old fishing tikanga.’ Although the law might say, ‘You can fish out there,’
we got to start saying, ‘No you can’t. Our tūpuna have not allowed that. We don’t allow that,’ and we
have to teach ourselves that too, but that’s something that I’ve really embraced with our iwi
<strong>mana</strong>gement plan and that’s going to take a bit of time but that’s something we want to push. This is
how they used to practise it and that’s what we need to do.
Interviewer #1 – So is that a system of rāhui in particular areas?
Interviewee #18– Yes
.....................
Interviewer #1 - do you think there’s enough there, enough umph really, inside the negotiations to swing
the pendulum to that where there is a greater emphasis on tikanga Māori for running your
environment?
Interviewee #18– I’d hate to think that we would need the Crown to teach us how to behave to each
other ... that’s something we need to sort out, ... I find that the Treaty process puts us back in that divide
and rule process again because we start scrapping over bits of whenua and money and things like that
and it becomes about ownership rather than relationships and those two come from two very different
belief systems, you know, ownership is a Western concept. It’s based on individual title, individual
tenure and we’re a collective people that operate from the ‘we’ and so it’s like the ‘I’ versus the ‘we’ and
so the Crown process will always be an ‘I’ process and we’re trying to operate as a ‘we’ so it’s a round
hole, square peg thing and we see it that way. So no, we can’t look to the Crown to be the conduit for
41

that because it won’t. It’s created the situation we’re in now. It’s not going to fix things because it’s
what’s created that (rahi?) ... that’s a fact. We need to release ourselves from our colonising
institutionalised Western thinking back to our relationship way of thinking and then we will be able to
get over ourselves and move towards what’s best for the whenua, not what’s best for me and you or
this one or that one. It’s what’s best for the whenua first and if that’s alright then we will all be alright.
... I try not to use the word ‘ownership’ at all in any of those kōrero because it’s not our kupu ... let’s put
ourselves aside and focus on the aroha te a whenua and we can’t go wrong, you know, if we put that
first then all of our dreams will be met. ... how we operate as a collective, needs to be unified
.....................
it’s very reactive. ... we feel in transition, I feel that even Māori are in that transition phase of moving
out of reactive-ness to proactive-ness and that’s where our Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans and things come into
play, ... We’re becoming proactive, but we’re still having to react to status quo way of doing things. –
Interviewee #18
.....................
it does create conflict because we’re trying to undo 150 years of institutionalism, ... particularly I find
our biggest tensions are with our most educated within Western systems,... challenges what they’ve
been taught and what they believe and what a lot of the (<strong>mana</strong>wa?) sits in, ... because there’s a lot of
<strong>mana</strong> in that mantle that’s been bestowed on them either by University or Crown or whoever, it
challenges that. It challenges all of that and therefore, most people don’t like that and it’s going back to
that power and control stuff, most people don’t want to give that up. – Interviewee #18
.....................
the ability through the settlement to access kai<strong>moana</strong> ... inland. ... that settlement only allows for
kai<strong>moana</strong> for tangi, that’s it, which is cool, but we’ve had some major big hui like our Deed of
Settlement date, you know, signing, we went to ... the CEO of the Fisheries Trust ... we were at a tangi
and, ‘So what’s the ability to access kai<strong>moana</strong> for bigger huis?’ Because we were about to have our
signing ceremony, ‘Any chance of getting some fish for that?’ He goes, ‘Oh, no, the policy only allows
for tangi,’ and ... we do celebrate things too. We don’t just bury people in our land and he talked about,
‘Oh it would be really hard to say what’s hui and what’s not a hui,’ you know, but I thought, ‘No, that’s
not cool. We should be able to feed manuhiri that come for celebrations as well, not just for tangi ... I
suppose we’d have to look at what constitutes a hui of import, ... but hui a iwi I think, is a hui of import.
So I think that’s one of the falldowns of that system is that we can’t access it if, you got to die. You’ve
got to die before you can get some of that kai<strong>moana</strong> there. There’s something messed up with that, –
Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #19 – It’s not a problem if you’ve got a hui on,’ but the fisheries, they claim the hui is a
tangi, a tangi, a tangi, I think that was it. That was the bottom line and we’re trying to say a hui is for
21sts, weddings, fairwells and everything like that and I’ve had many a run-in with the senior officer in
Tauranga over this.
42

Interviewer #1 – It’s a bit of a difference of opinion on what is actually fishing right
Interviewee #19 – Yeah, they actually told me I was issuing too many permits and I said, ‘Well you know,
go, you want to sort it out? We can go and sort it out, but you know, you’ve got to remember that three
or four bags of mussels for a tangi or for a 21st birthday with Māori, this is over a period of two or three
days.’ And they have the opinion that it’s just for one meal, you know, I said, ‘No, that’s over a period of
two or three days,’ and you know, that’s what we, that’s how I interpret it to be.
.....................
So we’ve got that many divers telling us, ‘Oh they’re getting cleaned up,’ you know, and because we’re
not official fisheries officer, we can’t go there and stop people because we’re not getting paid for it for a
start and a lot of people were coming from out of outer areas, but we could pull them up if they’d never
had a local permit for the area that we were policing, the taiāpure area. We could pull them up and we
could ring their people that issued the permit, ‘You know, it would be nice if you rang us and said you’re
sending people over with a permit for a hui or tangi or whatever,’ - Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 – I think the taiāpure needs to encourage these hapūs and that to have representatives
on that. Go back to what it was, you know, five or six years ago with ten or twelve representatives, half
of them didn’t come to the meetings, but you knew where they were, you know what permits they were
issuing because they were coming to me to get another book and we take out the copies and we knew
exactly what was coming at of the sea from out of those books, but that control has been taken out of
our hands and back to the hapūs and iwis and geez, we wouldn’t have a clue what’s coming out, just
what I see with my eyes.
Interviewer #1 – Okay so clearly there’s times when you had almost a utopia, you know, or things were
working really well, eh, so it can be-
Interviewee #19 – Oh, I’d say about five or six years, we were on a high, we were on a high
.....................
Interviewee #19 – That’s a lot of kai going out, yeah. People come down here in the busloads, you
know, whether they have permits or not, we don’t know.
Interviewer #1 – But they don’t need a permit. They can get 50 each in their bucket.
Interviewee #19 – 150 ... Yeah that’s why we’re trying to talk about cutting down the take, like all the
organisations on either side of us had dropped their mussel take down to 25 and that’s what we should
be doing too. I think it’s in the, I think [X]’s put it in the framework. 25 and 150 pipis, that’s only a 2-
Litre ice cream containerful, that’s how we thought, probably leave it at that, but it really needs
surveying again. I really think after this summer and if a rāhui needs to be put on it, let’s do it.
.....................
43

Interviewer #3 –... the next question is your perspective on whether these tools that you’ve just been
describing actually help and improve the abundance of kai<strong>moana</strong>.
Interviewee #20 – It was generally accepted in my time at Fisheries that mātaitai and taiāpure have no
impact whatsoever on abundance.
Interviewer #3 – You mean they’re seen as just feel-good things?
Interviewee #20 – Some would argue they’re nothing but a bit of a hindrance to the objectives of the
quota <strong>mana</strong>gement system and they would argue that any, yeah, any intervention on property rights
was a poor intervention. When from, the scientists would argue that when there’s spat from a
particular species and it drifts on the ocean currents, a lot of the species do. It’s just a fairly random
approach to reproduction, they would argue if you wrapped a mātaitai or prohibition around a
particular reef, how does that, doesn’t mean that the spat’s going to actually stop on that reef, which is
a fair point, you know.
Interviewer #3 – So did you yourself have a sense that there was any, that there’s been any evidence of
any of these tools enhancing abundance, especially ones that have been in place for so many years?
Interviewee #20 – The, part of the, at the mega-scale, again, and the challenge of <strong>mana</strong>ging the fishery
you have, good science is supposed to inform the various levels of maximum sustainable yield, so
basically the extraction level of a fish species. So good science is supposed to inform what is the level of,
what’s the safe level of extraction. It’s as simple as that to me and that, once you know those safe
levels, then the Minister can set the extraction level and whether not to increase it or decrease it for any
given species. Fundamental weakness is there’s not enough money to research our fisheries.
.....................
as [X] says, ‘New Zealand knows a lot about the Chatham rise and Hoki stocks and a few other high
value export species, but that’s it.’ So that’s the key and an unanswered question I have is where’s all
the research money gone? If we’ve been running the quota <strong>mana</strong>gement system for 25 years, if we, I
don’t know, let’s say, well at the moment it’s 20 million dollars on research per annum. So let’s say it
was only 10 million, that’s still a quarter of a billion dollars on research money over the last 25 years, yet
we know nothing about everything. We know a lot about a few high value export species - Interviewee
#20
.....................
Yeah, it’s pretty obvious to me that the biggest question facing us in the 21st century is the environment
and our environmentality. There’s no bigger question to me than the green question and so if you’re
sort of thinking of the generation behind us and how they would look back and go, ‘Oh gosh they did a
good thing in the start of the 21st century,’ you know, and it might be the carbon emissions, it might be
we changed our approach to farming where we didn’t let stock, because everyone’s, they stock graze
right in every waterway, don’t they? Going where they see as a pretty easy irrigation system, whereas
that’s, I think there’s some fairly big evidence, clear evidence that that’s quite an unhealthy thing. It’s
44

damaging the ecology with those waterways which damages the, it’s had huge impact on the nurseries
of estuarine and all those tributary areas for fisheries, our fishery. So those are the kind of, those are
the challenges, I would say, the thinking, like think ahead. Try and think like our children should be
thinking and look back at us. I think that’s quite a, would be a great way to do it because we’re driven
by margins, aren’t we? Three percent, four percent, five percent growth per annum and that’s almost
like you’re wringing every last drop out of something and I wonder if there’s a smarter way of doing it. I
suspect there is, knowing what we now know about the impact of intensive farming, particularly on the
waterways because we can see it. We can see, we know that people can’t catch a feed in their local awa
anymore because there’s a metre or two of mud, sedimentation build-up which has pretty much
smothered all life underneath it and so on and so on. We know there’s no fish in the particular areas
because the nurseries, the estuarine areas are heavily grazed - Interviewee #20
.....................
I would say quite a lot rests on Māori to solve a range of these problems, or challenges we’ve
confronted by now. I would imagine part of the reaction you’ll get from Māori communities is that, ‘Oh
now you’re ready to listen. We could have told you that behaving this way wasn’t actually very good for
any of us,’ and so that being the case, I think Māori have always known, Māori communities have known
that the heavy industrialisation of a fishery isn’t a smart way to run a fishery. Having said that, Māori
are locked into the model based on the Treaty of Waitangi Settlement 1992, so they’re locked into the
same model and in fact, at the time pretty much the new model was created where the fish was split
into this customary, recreational, and commercial bean, which it’s a concept that still doesn’t, I still
don’t think I understand, really - Interviewee #20
.....................
our mokopuna, they have nothing to see. They only have stories that they hear from us about the
certain types of food and the abundance of the food that was available to us. Without protecting some
of these areas there’s nowhere for our kids to go and learn about the <strong>moana</strong> and Tangaroa and the food
basket of Ahuriri, ... if we are successful in closing part of our beach off because ... I wasn’t aware just
how important it was until my mokopuna, he’s four, came home and told me all about his visit to
Harding Road and looking at all the shells and that at the seafront and I thought, ‘Gosh, you know, we
really need to take this seriously. We talk about it. We continually berate local government and central
government about the things that they’re not doing, but at the grassroots level, I think we can make a
difference as well if we lobby the right people and join together. Do this collectively.’ – Interviewee #22
.....................
since I’ve been involved, and I’ve only been involved for 12 months, prior to that I’d been like everybody
else, sitting outside looking in the window and the window has been somewhat fogged up. Now that
I’m involved in a bigger way, I’m asking questions, I’m going to hui, but I’m not getting any of the
answers. ... but from a communal type person, hapū/iwi related and someone is purporting to speak on
my behalf, ... everybody, all the hapū, then I think I should be told. There should be information about
it. We shouldn’t be held down. ... there’s a hell of a lot of people underneath me that you know, are
waiting for the trickledown effect and they don’t know about it. So with knowledge comes power and if
45

you empower people, you’ll get the support, but if you don’t tell them anything, feed them mushrooms
and keep them in the dark-– Interviewee #22
.....................
After the talks we gave her some kai to take away like you normally do and she said, ‘Oh I don’t know
whether I can get this in the boot of my car. I’ve got so much crayfish in there.’ ‘Oh, where’d you get
the crayfish from Minister?’ ‘From Ngāti Kahungunu Incorporated.’ Now that’s my own story. I saw it
with my own eyes, but I’ve never seen a crayfish on my marae, on the table there. So is it working? I
don’t think it is because I don’t believe that there’s a proper plan in place for it to work. – Interviewee
#22
.....................
very few agencies were really on the board with how they’re going to deal with Māori. Their willingness
was also varied. Their capacity to know how and what that meant was extremely varied. Some were
very prepared. They knew exactly what the responsibilities were. They were really welcoming of the
accord. They could see where it was going to have really good effect. Others were like, ‘Oh we’re just
not sure how we’re going to do this. We don’t know. We’re not doing a very good job of implementing
our Treaty principles. We’re nervous. We don’t know who you are,’ and that came out and so what
really, what became really important was them developing a relationship with us and understanding us
as iwi before we went too far. – Interviewee #24
.....................
I think one of the probably biggest challenges, [X], just my own personal view is that all of the iwi agreed
to a collective framework on the principles that we all know, a holistic approach to the environment
works best and we wanted to see the river <strong>mana</strong>ged as a whole living being, you know, and to restore
mauri and to restore and protect the river we had to work together collectively and the challenge will
be, the challenge I think, I see some of the challenges what will be the relationship between the River
Authority and the Regional Council because you’ve introduced a whole new authority into an
established RMA and LGA process so that’s going to be a really interesting kind of testing point for a
while. What’s the relationship between the Waikato River Authority and the respective iwi authorities
in terms of making decisions within a particular rohe? And that can be, it could be as simple as if the
River Authority are called on to appoint a commissioner in relation to a consent within the Raukawa
rohe we would firmly expect them to contact us and say, ‘Who would you recommend in that instance?’
But the right that we absolutely retain in agreeing to the wider co-<strong>mana</strong>gement framework was that we
are <strong>mana</strong> whenua in our rohe and we maintain <strong>mana</strong> whenua and we won’t move from that point and
understandably all the other iwi at the same point, but so that’s going to be really interesting to see a
new collective organisation for the whole of the river which everyone’s really passionate about, so that
interface. It will be the changing of the culture as we’ve talked about during the interview, you know,
and the changing of those things takes some time - Interviewee #24
.....................
46

<strong>Mana</strong> <strong>moana</strong> is a concept that is hapū-based and an extension to the <strong>mana</strong> of marae as the hapū-run
marae. In the relevant legislation the retention of Kaitiakitanga exists. This is an opportunity to retain
the principles of our kaitiakitanga. Aspects of the <strong>moana</strong> that require kaitiakitanga are;
i) the health of the fishery
ii) a vision for the kai<strong>moana</strong> to support Takutai hapū
iii) supporting the integration of freshwater and marine environments
iv) to have these encapsulated in a Maori context consistent with our emigration from Hawaiki nui. –
Interviewee #25
.....................
Policy implementation, generally requires funding to achieve the aims. We need to change this reliance
to a more independent basis for action. In this case the rohe <strong>moana</strong> <strong>mana</strong>gement team, te Komiti
Whakature i nga Taonga a Tangaroa, continually require funding to assist in the implementation of their
<strong>mana</strong>gement plans. They are in a mental deficit paradigm. The strength of the iwi to think is more
important than the ability to receive funding opportunities. The Treaty is an example of what we are
capable of. It is an agreement and recognition of our Sovereignty ...the current Crown administration
does not reinforce our indigenous rights via the United Nation Declaration of Indigenous rights]. –
Interviewee #25
.....................
Oysters ... were one of the species that Maori complained were being harvested by Pākehā contrary to
te Tiriti. Pākehā had no right to harvest taonga expressly protected by te Tiriti. This lead to the 1860
Oyster Reserves Act and the establishment of reserves for Maori consumption not commercial activity
although during World War 2 Oysters were harvested from the same reserves and used in the War
effort.
Now the oyster farms are being blamed for the sedimentation of the harbours when in fact they are
only a measure of the effect ...The causes of sedimentation are very complex and relate more to the
accelerated natural processes bought on by agricultural /pastoral land clearing practices of farmers and
settlements inland. – Interviewee #25
.....................
Interviewee #27 – One thing though I must finish off with, I have noticed as growing up, and prior to my
eldest sisters and brothers, my father and all of them, they never had the sort of problems we have like
today with the young ones. There’s marijuana, other excesses, things that they shouldn’t be doing and I
look back and I think the beauty of Maketu, the health of our kai<strong>moana</strong> bed and the everything else
pertaining to the Kaituna River, we and the people ourself, maintain the beauty of that within ourselves
47

and our health and nothing was bad. The people acted with goodness and what’s deteriorated today is
affecting our people.
Interviewer #1 – So a direct correlation between a healthy environment and a paru environment and the
(arano?) of the people isn’t it?
Interviewee #27 – Yeah
.....................
what concerned us most was the ability still to be hapū and our very identity was being altered by the
Crown constructs which were visited upon us and of course, we ended up looking like idiots with
internal squabbles. We didn’t want to buy into that. That wasn’t where we were at. All we wanted was
the identity of hapū to remain as they had been for hundreds of, you know, since the time of the Treaty
... so and the worst thing was that the mātauranga surrounding when a fish swam or didn’t swim, when
you caught and you didn’t catch, who you traded with and how, all that has been utterly and totally
disrupted and alienated by, and is still happening today, a pātaka system. Someone else goes and
catches the fish, they land it, it’s stored somewhere and you know, where’s the tamariki that your taking
out, you know, when they’re old enough to be safe in the waka to actually learn this stuff as they go -
Interviewee #5b
.....................
I think that reintegrative approach around to we define who we are and then hopefully in a postsettlement
environment we’ll also be defining who we are, you know, we’re still working at that –
Interviewee #5b
.....................
as early as last Christmas when we were at home we were struggling to catch a snapper and then we got
a report that they were all floating just outside the bay there. Someone had scooped them all up and
then dumped them because it was cheaper to dump them than bring them back in. So another solution
for that, for the fish dumping, that was given by <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki was the pātaka system – Interviewee
#10b
.....................
I still feel that it’s a historical scenario that’s still happening, but you know, like you’ve got people that
are working on, through processes, working on strategies, <strong>mana</strong>gement plans and everything else, but
the fish is still being depleted. You know, who’s watching that side of it? That is the reality of it all.
We’re tied up over here and no one’s really having the resources to be able to get out there –
Interviewee #13b
.....................
some of these mahinga kai have been around for generations and some of us could actually, especially
48

the coastal people, when you start talking about the different (toku?) of kai out there, certain families
have known where those (toku?) have been for generations, let’s face it, a couple of hundred years, if
not longer, and all of a sudden what was once theirs is no longer theirs. Where they had full control,
they have no control and that becomes that total disconnection and it’s not simply about control, but
it’s a disconnection from, people see it as a resource, but I would see it more as a, more like a, I don’t
want to say wāhi tapu because it puts it into a different sense, but you know, it’s a special place to those
families and once you take that ability to go there, to access the resource and also to protect the
resource, you definitely affect the health and wellbeing of those families. Protection is a huge part or I
suppose, the ability to protect – Interviewee #14b
.....................
Interviewee #15b – From our area it’s recognising the environmental damage that is done by farming
and restoration of the estuaries where, I think it’s 80, 90% on the Ocean Fisheries start anyway, and I
think it’s got to be that and because we’re close to that, we live there and that’s what we can see, that’s
where it hits us hard and Ministry of Fish and that you know, they were not even in that space.
Interviewer #3 – No, because this is on land, isn’t it?
Interviewee #15b – Well we live on the land but we see what’s happening in our estuary and we know
what needs to happen
.....................
when I was interviewing a chap about customary fishery in Maketu, one of the kaukainga, he sort of got
upset about, ‘What’s customary fisheries?’ And he went out, he said to me, ‘To me customary fisheries
is letting me go out and get a kai when I want to, like I always have and my grandmother did. It’s not
about having a permit and dah, dah, dah.’ So there are different perceptions of what even customary is
and I think sometimes we buy into the definition that legislation has put and even and now I see that
legislation being (mihimihi-ed?) by all the kai<strong>moana</strong> so that now there’s no difference at all between
customary and commercial, according to them and I don’t, I wonder if the iwi will follow that path too.
So I think we need to work out are we talking about the same thing with customary fisheries stuff? Is it
going and getting a kai when you want as we’ve done or is it the other tikanga around it? I don’t know.
See we can’t do that whanau thing like permission in Maketu because every Te Arawa iwi reckons they
own Maketu you see. So they all come in and they’re really quite arrogant and override the haukainga
about what they get and entitled to and it’s, trying not to find a swear word [laughter] It’s just ‘help
yourself and dare to stop me’ sort of attitude. So it’s going to be a bigger problem, that’s why I want to
get onto the education side and restoring the estuary so I can say to them, ‘Where were you when I was
restoring the estuary?’ Because I know they won’t be there, you know, putting the eelgrass back in and
making sure the stocks are healthy again and getting rid of the sediment out of the estuary –
Interviewee #15b
.....................
49

we’ve got whenua around the lakes, for instance, I’d never ever go and help myself to any kai over
there. I don’t live there, but in reverse, ‘Oh no, what’s yours is mine.’ I remember getting into an
argument, when, we’ve got a marae that’s out of commission. It’s been out of commission for a
generation and so when the fisheries money came, no I went over to a land meeting where we’ve got
shares, all the people at this marae got shares in this whenua and land and it’s in forestry and they get
millions, but said, ‘We want some money to helping our marae,’ and he says, ‘Oh no, this is only for the
lands, the people, the maraes that associate with these lands,’ it was an excuse to cut us all out, anyway
and, ‘the 50,000 we give out every year to these five maraes is only these maraes, you know, it’s not you
fellows. The whenua is not associated with your marae.’ So I said, ‘Oh can you give back our fisheries
money then please?’ “Oh no, no, the government did that,’ and I said, ‘Well you don’t need to listen to
the government.’ It was a huge uproar but that’s the same thing, isn’t it? Our garden is the sea and
they get the benefits of it, the putea and he said, ‘Oh well what’s yours is ours. What’s mine is mine.’
So it’s really, like you say, the dynamics have really changed – Interviewee #15b
.....................
I haven’t seen any research on, people talk about it, the pipi beds gone, but I haven’t seen anything to
say why, research saying why – Interviewee #15b
.....................
because we value all of the things we value and the way the system is today continues that. It’s the
round peg, square hole scenario we get to live in ... Is it our vehicle or is it someone else’s we’re trying
to change to fit us? It will never fit because it’s not ours – Interviewee #18b
.....................
now that we’re moving into asset-based type <strong>mana</strong>gement we now wanted to go like that and so for our
plans, going to have to be changed to reflect, well actually. So we’re just submitted to district plan last
week. When we reviewed our original submission about two or three years ago, it was all very much
preservation, conservation, ‘Stay away from here, don’t do this there.’ We had to do a 180 because
we’re now in this position where we actually, oh no, we want to develop those areas. Now we’re okay
about that if we’re controlling that and so that’s where we have to (?) and review all our submissions
because we’re moving into that user stage. So that’s been a bit of a, I think that’s where we’re going,
you know, in the post-Treaty stage, in terms of kaitiakitanga. The real concern is you know, when we’re
in the protection stage it’s very easy to say, ‘Hands off the river and that’s my maunga, that’s my awa,’
but now we’re in this development stage where we’re now wanting to use those resources so are we all
going to keep walking that talk, or what? Because that, to me, is the biggest issue we’ve got as iwi.
Before us is can we walk that conservation talk and still develop? Are we going to be Māori business
which has got a lot of social considerations or are we just going to be Māori in business – Interviewee
#18b
.....................
50

I forgot that the Rotorua Lakes Strategy to clean up the lakes, the (?) that dropped was that crew that
just to have a clean lake is not what everybody wants. It’s the wellbeing that comes from having a clean
lake, yeah, and they’ve just realised that although they might have all these techniques they think can
clean up this lake, it’s not satisfying the community. Why, because it’s not about having good water
quality and clarity and you know, the all that sort of scientific analysis. If it’s clean then we can do this,
then we can do that – Interviewee #18b
.....................
we were in that process at the moment and we see our resource consent holder spraying blackberries,
spraying, you know, with this water-take. We have had our whanau experience like levels of water in,
you know, like underground water for them in the summer which is what we depend on, particularly in
the country. So we’ve asked them to come out and talk with us. They (haven’t, regional council?) And
you know [Interviewee #5b] just happens to be one of the employees ... but we’re working through it
and I think it’s around, Māori are quite (na ware?) with or not having the intelligence to be able to go
and engage with local councils, regional councils, so they tend to just put up with the issues they have.
So, yeah, no I think that’s all part of this thing here and I think it’s just about local councils and it’s about
the government’s priorities of the day as well, you know, there’s the economic development, social
development, just a focus. So you tick the boxes – Interviewee #29b
.....................
Interviewee #20b – isn’t the question is that ... we’re finding in the post-settlement phase, we’re still
bound by our Westminster mentality?
Interviewee #14b – Correct
Interviewee #20b – I think that’s the question
.....................
I started thinking to myself what is this utopia we’re kind of talking about you know, is it around having
better <strong>mana</strong>gement systems in place to <strong>mana</strong>ge fish and for what purpose? Fish for recreational
purposes, fish for commercial purposes, is it fish for cultural purposes? And when I think that I always
think of Māori being caught in just about all of those. Māori are commercial, they’re recreational,
they’re cultural in a way that non-Māori aren’t. I mean, most if you talk about a Pākehā commercial
fishermen, he doesn’t give a stuff about cultural fisheries and all that sort of stuff. So he only has one
thing in mind. It sort of takes me back to, I’ll quote a phrase where Māori has to be twice as good as any
Pākehā because you’ve got to be a good Pākehā and a good Māori [laughs] If you’re a Pākehā all you
have to do is be a good Pākehā, you don’t have to worry about being a good Māori – Interviewee #21
.....................
So the end result for us was the Toheroa Accord, which in 2000 they tried to institute, only one iwi
picked it up, the other five iwi kept harvesting off (?) beds of toheroa and the toheroa were increasing,
51

increasing, increasing in numbers to the point that the main bed was 16kms long in 2004. The local
people, without any scientific knowledge said, ‘The toheroa are going to be leaving the beach soon.’
And they all said, ‘Rubbish!’ ... They all got together, they accepted the local people’s kōrero, the iwi
rūnanga groups. They made a decision that they would all stop harvesting or issuing permits for harvest
and they did and that was it. All over, all done and so there was an agreement amongst the people and
within two months the toheroa were gone as well – Interviewee #25b
.....................
Interviewee #20b – What happens [Interviewee #25b and #29b] where your key person isn’t resourced
to go to hui to get that perspective for, not only, turns out not only for their hapū, but then low and
behold that they’re supposed to be giving the perspective of their nearest neighbours up and down the
coast. They’re not resourced and then they’re supposed to go back and communicate those decisions
that have been made in a, and probably a foreign environment where there’s the language that’s
spoken that’s hard to digest.
Interviewee #29b – See that’s a good thing and a bad thing. The minute our whanau find out that
someone’s getting paid to do blah, blah, blah they’re going to jump up and down. So initially I think to
get an engagement you have to be quite committed to the kaupapa, like us as <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki I think
that’s where it’s at. It’s about our commitment, not only about the <strong>moana</strong> or the preservation of the kai
or any, it’s about the whole environment. So there’s a commitment in itself there. Maybe later on if we
can get maybe $100 to provide the marae venue you know, I don’t know. There has to be a certain
amount of resource somehow along the track, but I don’t think it, yeah it shouldn’t be focused at a
person. It should be focused at the benefits for everybody. How we do that is easy, I think, just being,
making sure that you maintain or you’re talking what you’ve been put before, that your values are
there, your Māori values are there first.
Interviewee #25b – Yeah, resourcing does come, we acknowledge that but what you make of resourcing
actually turns people off. They basically clam up and that’s bloody kaupapa working for the Crown. So
and lack of resourcing is not new to this country, I mean we’ve made tremendous progress given that
we’ve been constricted by resourcing ... So it can be done, but just picking up on what should be done
and that engagement process, what I like is the Rapiti model that they’ve got and I think that’s the
model which everybody really should be adopting all the time where you have the framework for all of
their planning that’s based around their community plans, the environmental plan, the fisheries plan,
the other plans that relate to, based on their resources, what are the needs of their people, where they
are, what resources you’ve got available. Those form the framework and so all the subsequent activity
are aligned to those frame- those outcomes and those processes identified within that framework.
Once that is gone, the next thing is to the get it into the council so the LTCCP engagements can be done
on their terms, responding to an LTCCP, as you said last night, there’s a massive job. You know they got
a whole department work on the plan for months, basically 12 months, and we got to turn it around,
pull it apart, restructure it into our paradigm three weeks, it can’t be done. Forget it, you know, it’s just
not possible, not at an iwi level, not at a hapū level, not at a whanau level. You just cannot do it. So the
solution we think that best fits us is the environmental <strong>mana</strong>gement plans, fisheries plans under the
52

RMA. That’s where we’re getting purchase and that’s where we’re seeing that people have gone
through that process, in particular, hapū-based or marae-based communities that engenders an
ownership and invigorates their ability to discourse amongst themselves in congress and from that you
get further growth of other projects
.....................
Interviewer #2 – where would you have Ministry of Fisheries in your Utopia?
Interviewee #29b – Nowhere
.....................
Interviewer #2 – That’s the facts now, but if you had a magic powder to sprinkle around the rooms of
Ministry of Fisheries in Wellington in your new utopia, if they changed in some way would you want
them as part of your utopia or would you want them gone?
Interviewee #29b – Gone
Interviewee #10b - ... I spoke to some of our kaumatua when I was doing our Fish Plan in (Hauraki?) and
one of the older gentlemen, he said to, I said to him, ‘What would your utopia look like?’ He said, ‘Well
we’d use our own resources to fund our own programmes,’ and that’s it in a nutshell, basically. So yeah
we could use the money ourselves if there was to be any. We’d put customary above everything else, so
customary first. Commercial would be last. Yeah, he was quite an interesting character, he said things
to me like, ‘[Interviewee #10b] you tell me the first Pākehā that put a fishing line in the sea out here, has
he established a Pākehā customary right?’ So you know, things like that, he really used to get me
thinking. So yeah, it was quite interesting talking to some of those old people, but pretty much, he
thought that the Ministry of Fisheries didn’t really need to play a part, didn’t really need to be here.
.....................
we have [X]’s (Minority?) Report to the Kahawai legal challenge around the TAC and the mechanisms
and whereabouts do the TACC sit within the allocation model. Now the [X]’s report was that the Crown
should take the total allowable catch, deduct from them the customary, the recreational and the
environmental. What’s left is the commercial catch. (Tu<strong>mana</strong>?) Report is my understanding. The rest
of the court said, ‘No, it goes commercial allocation and then there’s a small division at the bottom for
what’s left over,’ but there’s no data to support whether that allocation meets the needs of all the
people who are the interested parties in that conversation – Interviewee #25b
.....................
And the problem is that there is this pervasive attitude within Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> in particular, and
Ministry of Fisheries, that mahinga (mātaitai?) are small discreet areas that operate completely within
isolation from all the other ecology that sits around it. Same way the snapper quota system operates in
complete isolation with other species and harbour species that they sit within. Crayfish being the same,
53

kina they don’t operate in isolation. It just is not good. A mahinga mātaitai around one hectare of
mussel beds is just not sufficient. Interesting to read some of these kaitiaki kōrero about what they say
used to happen. One month we’d go here for this and another month we’d go there, oh they’re rubbish.
We went every day, you know, we had a fish every bloody day and it wasn’t one species of fish. We had
20 different species of fish – Interviewee #25b
.....................
Like [Interviewee #21] did this morning, Motherhood and Apple Pie. If it’s not visibly obvious to you
then you’re way disconnected. Yeah it’s just common sense and if you can’t identify what’s out there
then you’re in a sad state – Interviewee #25b
.....................
I think one of the things which is unknown, not so much unknown, but given less regard, is the role of
the species of fish play in the ecology. (Belmukas?) there was a good picture of them on YouTube the
other night, something in one of the (?) or something, a hippopotamus under water with its mouth wide
open, and what was happening? A whole lot of fish were cleaning its teeth. It stand stock still, mouth
wide open and the fish were in there and you see these bloody reef examples of sharks coming into a
bay and getting serviced by a whole heap of small fish that come in and clean the ticks off them and
clean their, they’re moving down their gills, shark sits there and get addressed and then there it moves
off and another one comes in. And I think there are roles that these fish play in our ecology which are
not understood and the one that really concerns me is (paoe?) We don’t have big schools of (paoe?) like
we used to but we have this degradation of the fishery – Interviewee #25b
.....................
some of the research that’s come out from our Koro, Kuia still here with us. It’s not that abundant, is it?
Not in our customary area. Well I’m saying that because just from knowing our customary area, we’re
not really sure so I suppose that’s why we like to get involved in the kaitiakitanga to focus on pushing for
establishing fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan so that we know, you know, so in these fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement
plans we’d like to see proper research going down, you know, where are we going to get that support
from? Who’s going to help resource that? None of us that live in Ngāti Rakaipaaka have got any type of
boat that’s available or any type of person who can go out there and do that ourselves. We have to
depend on some kind of resources that are available to us – Interviewee #29
.....................
Interviewee #29 - it’s obviously going to take a while because there is, all of that work is still being done
voluntarily by Māori.
Interviewer #1 – So it’s hard to be empowered … It’s hard because it means late nights, right? Tapping
away on a keyboard or something or going to hui voluntarily. Is that frustrating?
Interviewee #29 – Yeah. Right. It is. I mean, you know, in the non-Māori worldview they can moan as
54

much as they can but in the non-Māori worldview it’s a lot easier because they haven’t got all these
different, they haven’t got all these different people to contend with. They haven’t got all these
different areas to contend with. They haven’t got all these different personalities like Māori.
.....................
Interviewee #29 - I remember when we used to go out whitebaiting with my Mum, it was never in
August. It was always earlier. It was always around June, May/June. Those were the- and it was
plentiful, well I mean probably the reasons why it’s changed is because of the depletion of those things.
I don’t know, but when you get to August you’re just about of, they’re just about out of season, to us,
but I reckon that legislation has changed access to that too. Is that what you were asking?
Interviewer #1- Yeah what’s changed and what’s impacting on Rakaipaaka’s ability to feed Rakaipaaka in
terms of the fishery.
Interviewee #29 – Well those legislation has impacted on us and times when I traditionally used to go
out was May/June.
.....................
Interviewee #29 - I mean I’m not saying that people in those government departments aren’t, haven’t
got a little bit of knowledge about it, but it’s not all the same. It’s not all the same like for us in Ngāti
Rakaipaaka, they can’t say that our needs are the same as Rongomaiwahine who are just next door.
They can’t say that the Whakaki-nui-a-rua people’s needs are the same as ours or ours are the same as
theirs. We’re different, that’s what I’m talking about.
Interviewer #1 – So the one plan to rule the world-type approach isn’t at all going to work, is it?
Interviewee #29 – No, no, hell no.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So is it fair to say there’s a little bit of tension between what Rakaipaaka wants for its
people and for the health of the fishery and the awa and what’s, I guess, coming from Ngāti Kahungunu
Incorporated?
Interviewee #30 – You wouldn’t say tension because a lot of Rakaipaaka are not aware of, they don’t
really think that much, not really interested much, but most of them would be against that surf clams
thing, but a lot of people are not aware of anything really.
.....................
Interviewee #30 – We hear from Rongomaiwahine right from Waikokopu to Pahauwera might be
different now because getting control but to Waihua anyway. There’s been no fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement
plan in place or anything
Interviewee #29 – There’s nothing
55

Interviewer #1 – Which is great if you’re a quota holder because it means-
Interviewee #29 – They can do what they want
Interviewer #1 – The rules around commercial extraction –
Interviewee #30 – All these other hapū are just the same as us. They’ve got nothing, no resources or
anything.
Interviewer #1 – Okay, are you feeling very empowered as the fishery spokespeople for Ngāti
Rakaipaaka
Interviewee #29 – Not really,
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So plenty of people coming into the rohe, running over the top of everything and –
Interviewee #29 – Expectations being put up there but nothing actually-
Interviewee #30 – Ten percent or something and this te mea te mea
Interviewer #1 – So are you pissed off?
Interviewee #29 – Oh yeah, but then you know, what’s new? What’s new in terms of what needs to
happen you know? Māori expected to be part of just a New Zealander, what does that mean? What
does that mean, I mean [laughs] have to give Māori people their, we’re the Indigenous people of New
Zealand. I don’t know. It does get very frustrating but somebody’s got to keep going
.....................
Interviewee #30 - natural land access is blocked or not, you have to get down there on the one hand,
come in on a motorbike to have a look because it’s a Māori land incorporation stopping the people
accessing the land, to the beach.
Interviewee #29 – There is a right of way, that’s District Council, District Council right of way to the
beach. They’re not willing to open it up. It’s going to cost too much money. We’re not asking for a
highway to the ngutu awa and beach we’re just asking for a way that we can, a lot of our kids don’t even
know what the beach looks like because there is no access
Interviewee #30 – But the resource is still there
Interviewer #1 – Can’t get to it?
Interviewee #29 – No
Interviewee #30 – The resource is still there even though
56

.....................
Interviewee #29 - just in terms of fishing, the whitebait seasons changed from what we traditionally
knew we always went down to the awa with Mum, Dad May and June to do the fishing. July was the
fishing, you know, the end of the whitebaiting season. Now we don’t start until August and that’s like a
no-no for us. That was, you’d never go past July for whitebaiting. Now you go August, September,
October, November, so is that impacting on there. I don’t know, they must have done their fishing
thing. I don’t even know the reasons why we used to go down there. For u it was a traditional thing.
For me now it would have been a traditional thing, but you know, it would have been, probably the
legislation has changed because of the cycle of the whitebait, I don’t know.
Interviewer #1 – You mentioned a number of elders have passed away, is there a loss of-
Interviewee #29 – Yeah, hell yeah there’s a huge loss of everything you know,
Interviewee #30 – Yeah pa tuna you know what those are, you put hīnaki to make the pa. No one makes
those anymore
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Conflict & Resolution
What are the causes of conflict? What are the options for resolution?
Summary of key points:
Iwi are asked to prove continuous contiguous use in order to have customary access
Strong relationships need to be formed between customary, commercial, and recreational so
everyone can support each other in <strong>mana</strong>ging kai
Western structures are a foreign concept and do not fit with a holistic Māori view
Mussel farms are a bone of contention between farmers and local communities
Transplanting can help increase stock (but it’s illegal)
Public perception of rāhui is to close off areas so only Māori have access; public perception is
also that Māori projects get funding (even when they don’t)
Lack of support from Min Fish; government paperwork; lack of support from local government;
MinFish processes are counter-productive
Lack of hapū representation within iwi; iwi groups need to find commonalities to work together
so that <strong>mana</strong> is not diminished
Positive outcomes occur when regional bodies & local communities work together when setting
up mātaitai
There is a lack of funding for Māori-led conservation projects
Debate still around whether Māori conceded tinorangatiratanga and who has the rights to land
There is a lack of understanding when the Crown imposes limitations on mātaitai or restricts
elders from collecting kai<strong>moana</strong>
Iwi sometimes are pitted against other iwi in court
Some iwi have gained a mutual respect with Crown agencies in fighting for spiritual recognition
of the importance of waterways to the iwi
Water is wasted in toilets and sewerage when this is not the traditional way of disposing of
waste
Communities must come together to solve issues because government won’t
Regional councils are just now starting to recognise iwi/hapū interests due to claims
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Quotes:
within the fisheries mechanism if we could prove that continuous contiguous use, we had or the
whanau, hapū have <strong>mana</strong>gement of the fishery right up to that 12K mark ... provided more than what
the kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations ... currently allow. – Interviewee #1
.....................
... in Rakanui, they had a taiāpure there and we studied the scenarios and that and which way we’d like
to go and we ended up deciding on the mātaitai which would give us by-laws that we could, just within
that area. So it was more flexible for us. – Interviewee #2
.....................
we wanted to run it our way. We wanted to get it up and running. The only big issue and that was, for
us, was going to be funding, how we are going to fund it. – Interviewee #2
.....................
signing the Treaty, we understand that we never conceded tinorangatiratanga. We never conceded
ownership of our rivers, foreshore and seabed and that to us is tinorangatiratanga. We might have to
not use the word ‘ownership,’ especially of our rivers. I think there's still some big debate there as to
who owns the bed of the (?) River. The Crown are saying they don't own it. We are not saying that we
don't own it. So who owns the bed of the (Waihua?) River? – Interviewee #3
.....................
traditionally people used to transplant, my grand uncle, [X]... he used to always bring back kai and some
was for distributing throughout the community ... he was one of the ones that I know of for sure, and
that's written down in our family records, that he used to bring back different seafoods from other areas
and transplant them. So he went up north into basically where [X] from and bought these three types of
tuatuas back and when I told [X] about this he thought of the brilliant idea. He's going to repeat history,
basically, ... we tagged them and put them back into the sea and we haven't found them all but we've
come across them again and they have still got their tags on them and they've grown. I think just off the
top of my head, I think the most that one has grown was three mils so that was quite good. –
Interviewee #4
.....................
so we just closed it, got the (hahi?) into close it and, ‘Anybody got any questions, just come and ask. It's
pretty obvious why we're closing these areas off,’ but did you know what? Surprisingly enough, people
thought that we closed off by (Waikokapu?), the mussels closed off, so that we could eat the mussels. ...
there are no mussels down there – Interviewee #4
.....................
‘Well, what if we just pluck a bit here, just thin them out a bit, transplant them-‘ ‘Ah, no, can't do that,
no.’ So we did it because you know when people say you can't do something I like to prove them wrong
and it would prove them wrong because they grow, – Interviewee #4
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.....................
So we proved that, no they just need to be thinned out so they can eat their own food and clean the
barnacles off those. So we would pick them up, clean the barnacles off the mussels, transplant through
those and put them on a single rope with an anchor down the bottom and now they are growing so
those mussels there. – Interviewee #4
.....................
Getting people to change their minds of thinking like, don't want to say hard-headed, but at the time, I
remember all those bad words they used to think of saying to them but I knew I couldn't. The ones that
were fixed in their minds about this is how it should be done, even local people, which I didn't expect, or
saying, ‘You should do it through Ministry of Fisheries because you're going to get the support, you're
going to get them to police it.’ I said, ‘They can't even police what's happening there now. -Interviewee
#4
.....................
see paperwork, that's a barrier but the way to overcome it is not to do it. We are emphasising the
urgent need of this to happen. Well when you're trying to fill out paperwork that could take several
months, overcome that, just do it… and listen to people. Oh, a barrier was people listening to us
because we were young, ... So we joke at it now. We say, ‘Hey, I remember you wanting to cut down
the rāhui signs and do all of this. Nice feed? See what I mean,’ but we knew we had to close those
areas off as a way to restock and show people that these are a good method. – Interviewee #4
.....................
we could see with the MIO processes that they’d actually excluded the hapū ... we asked to be seen, to
meet with Ngāti Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated and we met with our letters not being replied to. We sat
in a couple of their board meetings and we basically drummed out that there was a lot of suspicion that
we were just after money and that was just so absurd sitting there with people who represented us at
board level and yet didn’t want to hear our concerns ... if it ever came to a vote then they’d be outvoted
two-two-two rather than two and two and four, four from the Coastal Hapū Collective so the whole Ki
Uta Ki Tai determined that the Hapū Collective could have four so I think that’s quite amazing on itself.
... the worst demonstration of behaviour came from the chair of Te Kupenga. So and it was, I was really
disappointed that that’s the level of leadership that Te Kupenga have opted for. The old days of
screaming matches, we had not seen that within Ki Uta Ki Tai. There’s no place for it so I don’t know
what possessed the person to behave in that manner. – Interviewee #5
.....................
Yeah, well that's actually came out positive with this mātaitai working with regional councils all of those
local bodies,... And even local community– Interviewee #6
.....................
I think there needs to be some form of communication between the three sectors which is customary,
commercial, recreational. I think there ... should be good relationships from senior down to those who
work on the ground. ... I think just letting us do what we need to do in our areas with the support that
60

we need to be doing what we're doing in our areas and what we've been gazetted and mandated to do
and what we're going to do, what we really need. – Interviewee #8
.....................
I went to a paua conference I got up and I asked how on earth we could access this FORST funding ... I
had a little tap on the shoulder and a man said to me, ‘Here’s my card. I’m from Bell Gully from
Wellington.’ He said, ‘We’ve got all the money you require for your farm.’ He said, ‘So here’s my card.
You come and see us and just be in touch and we’ll foot the money for your farm.’ Well, of course I go
back home and tell our partners, absolutely thrilled about this opportunity. He wouldn’t let us. Our
partners said, ‘No,’ because they would take too much of the, we can do this but it was very difficult –
Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So for that question, virtually zero help from anybody?
Interviewee #9– Zero.
Interviewer #1 – ... There was a lack of willingness to even listen or at least meet you halfway or
anything.
Interviewee #9– Exactly. Most people didn’t understand what we were trying to achieve. That was the
problem.
.....................
A lot of people thought around the peninsula where we lived that we were running that farm on Māori
money, believe you me there was not one cent of Māori money put into the actual farm project, with
the exception of Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> who paid for our education. – Interviewee #9
.....................
we installed the mātaitai ... so we could try and preserve what we got ... we advocate that to everybody
that we talk to is to use that tool, but somewhere along the line, the Ministry got the idea that when you
have a mātaitai it’s only a mile long. I don’t know where they got that perception from and it had to be
in front of a bloody marae. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Well she was getting a feed for her and her family and I said, well they tried to get it and put it back and
I wrote her a permit and gave it to her. I said, ‘Give it to those fellows.’ So she did and said, ‘Thank you
very much.’ And I said, ‘Next time we come to the beach,’ well she was only diving for her family. I said,
‘The difference between a fucking crook and a person that’s got to feed themselves is pretty obvious. ...
– Interviewee #16
.....................
Yeah we were going through this gazettement process to get the other hapū in and we had Ngāti Wai
who still hang out and Ngāti Hine and Ngāti Rehia. They haven't signed up to our gazettement or lifted
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their objections because Ngāti Rehia have their own gazettement in place and we endorse that but they
didn't endorse ours. The second one was Ngāti Hine because they had other interests which had more
to do with their commercial fishing quota which was held by Ngāpuhi and I think that they felt that they
needed some coastline to protect that... And so the motives to object to us were totally nothing to do
with us. They were people's own self-interests and I thought that was really unfair that we had to
endure that. ... I mean we could have gone to court and thrashed it out. ... I didn't want to do that, ...
that whole business of bringing them all on board to support our application was a bit of a drama and
we could justify it because we had a Fish Plan that they didn't have. In fact, none of them have got a
Fish Plan, so we are saying, 'Well how can you object? You haven't even got a Fish Plan, what are you
objecting against?’ And they didn't really have an objection but it was an objection and they wouldn’t
lift it. So I think the process of MinFish need to be re-examined and in fact, I just felt that [X] was hiding
behind the objection rather than trying to find a way through it and I can understand this but since I'm
not a (?) I can understand this position because he is guided by the rulebook and I guess he's got a
responsibility to the objectors as well. – Interviewee #17
.....................
when you lock horns enough with somebody you sort of start developing a healthy respect for each
other ... we got recognition of all three points of the Section 6e, 7a, Section 8, first iwi to ever be
accorded all three of those sections in the RMA. ... that’s in our Environment Court ruling, that’s
precedent. That’s a precedent for Environmental law. No iwi have ever been accorded all three
sections of the Act and what’s unique is that they recognise the spiritual relationship Rangiwewehi have
to the Taniwha Springs or to the puna, which our law recognises spiritual values. It doesn’t get done. It
doesn’t happen, that’s the first time. ... It took a lot of work and it emptied our coffers. – Interviewee
#18
.....................
Interviewee #18- our council want to close the loop on the lake in terms of waste water system and put
everyone (?) the septics onto the council system and our people are just loving that idea because ...
we’re pretty slack on maintaining our septic tanks ... but I had to say to council and to ourselves... ‘Why
are we flushing all of our beautiful spring water down the toilet? Why are we doing that,’ and you know
the reason we have all of these (Raururauru?) is because we add water to our tūtae. That’s not natural.
That never happens in nature, you know, and we used to not even do that. That’s not our practice, to
add water to our tūtae. We dry compost it. ‘We’re going to go back to dry composting and toilets and
long-drops,’ but yeah long-drops aren’t long-drops anymore, they’re very much more technologically
advanced these days ... the next question to ourselves was, ‘Yeah, ka pai, flush the toilet, gone, not our
problem anymore,’ but are we being responsible by doing that, you know, we’re just being part of the
problem. Yeah, it didn’t go down well, but that’s the challenge. We’ve got to keep challenging
ourselves. Why are we perpetuating these things? That’s our beautiful spring water and down the
toilet she goes.
Interviewer #1– ... Do you think things are getting better?
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Interviewee #18– Yeah, yep, totally, fully. It can only get better, I think. It’s the grassroots movements,
you know, taking control of our own communities and not waiting for the government to fix us up
because they’re not going to
.....................
You got to be so careful, like one time they had a contract digging the pipeline, well they were supposed
to go underground across the pipi bed at (Rowaihi?) to (Pukehina?) to this water main, but they’re
supposed to go underground. Apparently he ran into trouble and so he used a bloody digger, going in at
low tide and digging up this trench and these people ring me up from (Rowaihi?) says, ‘Jesus
[Interviewee #19], you better get down here!’ So I got down there and I thought, ‘Oh Christ,’ and I
stopped the contract work. I stopped the contract work. I said, ‘Listen, we’re going to have to talk
about this because you’re going over pipi beds and stuff,’ and he said, ‘Oh I don’t think there’s any pipi
beds here. We never come-,’ I said that’s by-the-by, they move.’ I said they move so we closed the
whole operation down and they were an Auckland company and then EBoP came down and bloody
regional council came down and says, ‘Oh [Interviewee #19], I think you’re going a bit too far about
stopping this big contract,’ and I said, ‘Well you know, it just doesn’t seem right to me that he’s digging
this big trench across the estuary,’ and the guy from Auckland contracts said, ‘Yeah, well we’ve got a
consent to do it,’ and this Māori guy from regional council said, ‘No you haven’t.’ So I won, the only
fight I’ve ever won. Yeah so they packed up and went back to Auckland – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #22 - we’re starting to be notified of these things because of the land claims. I know there’s
a, the Hawke’s Bay regional council forming an environment team whereby we’re going to be invited
onto it to put up nominations to sit on that conservation team to provide advice and to be involved in
planning on what goes on within our rohe and on the rivers and on the waterways. It’ll be interesting to
just see how much notice is taken of that committee, but I guess, having the opportunity to be at the
table is better than sitting at your kai table talking about it when you might be able to be sitting at the
table where you’re helping to make decisions
Interviewer #1 – Yes, yes. Okay and what about the other councils then, the Hastings and the Napier, do
they-
Interviewee #22– Slowly coming on board. They didn’t even know who we were. Once we got the
mandate from the Crown to take our claim to ratification we decided to put together a delivery to take
to the councils to let them know who we are, how big a players we are in the development of our region
and it’s only at that time that we’ve done it in the last 12 months, since we’ve done this delivery, that
they know who we are and so they’re starting to treat with us, but up until then, it was a quasi-Māori
committee that was selected, ... we didn’t accept that committee because we didn’t think it had any
power
.....................
prior to that I’d been like everybody else, sitting outside looking in the window and the window has
been somewhat fogged up. ...I’m going to hui, but I’m not getting any of the answers... There should be
63

information about it. We shouldn’t be held down. ... there’s a hell of a lot of people underneath me
that you know, are waiting for the trickledown effect and they don’t know about it. So with knowledge
comes power and if you empower people, you’ll get the support, but if you don’t tell them anything,
feed them mushrooms and keep them in the dark-– Interviewee #22
.....................
very few agencies were really on the board with how they’re going to deal with Māori. Their willingness
was also varied. Their capacity to know how and what that meant was extremely varied. Some were
very prepared. They knew exactly what the responsibilities were. They were really welcoming of the
accord. They could see where it was going to have really good effect. Others were like, ‘Oh we’re just
not sure how we’re going to do this. We don’t know. We’re not doing a very good job of implementing
our Treaty principles. We’re nervous. We don’t know who you are,’ and that came out and so what
really, what became really important was them developing a relationship with us and understanding us
as iwi before we went too far. There’s a lot of nervousness. – Interviewee #24
.....................
Yeah of whole range of people. It’s the community as much as public servants and elected members for
whatever level. I think it’s a significant change and it’s fearful for some, others are embracing it and
Māori will have a much more prominent, visible and real role in decision-making and that’s going to
make life uncomfortable for some people, I think, but it’s a role and place we’ve waited a long time to
be at.- Interviewee #24
.....................
There are some barriers at this point in time to the concept of integrated catchments <strong>mana</strong>gement with
marine activity but we expect these to be broken down over time. As anyone who deals with
Conservation activities will tell you at some point all of the strategies require <strong>mana</strong>gement of the
Ecosystem for successful advancement. The Western Ministerial structures are quite separate in their
approach and a natural consequence of budgeting reporting and responsibility and although this a
foreign concept at present we believe that more Maori approach of a holistic view wherein all things are
related in some manner or other will become the more successful method for solving very complex
problems. Separate administrations of departments is not very consistent with our interpretation of te
Tiriti principles. – Interviewee #25
.....................
We have green lipped mussels in abundance because of the marine farms but not much credit is given
to this situation. In fact the opposite occurs where all mussel farmers request fishermen to remove
snapper from the farm areas as they consume far too much product than the farmers would like. The
mussel lines are also home to many other life forms including seaweeds and are a strong ecosystem
component. These mussel farms are a fishermen’s dream but the general public don’t want them
established in this region. – Interviewee #25
.....................
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we’ve had meetings, hopefully there’s been a promise of the Kaituna being returned within the next two
years and you know, it’d be a wonderful sight for the people to see the river flowing back like it
normally… It’s got to be done at stages to see if the system will work again. – Interviewee #27
.....................
then we can build, I think, our nationhood out of that commonality and I see that it’s really starting to
happen and it’s supported by the good old Treaty stuff. So now that environment, environmental,
climate change, all that sort of thing are global. It’s like all of a sudden we’re in a situation where do
have a common language and therefore we can share each other’s guidance – Interviewee #5b
.....................
I’ve seen in one of the, another iwi along the East Coast, there up in Coromandel. They lost so many of
their resources, just the sheer population of the whole of Auckland coming there for a holiday and it got
depleted. They started putting in DoC reserves because they just couldn’t, people actually, they were
telling me stories about people coming into their traditional mussel beds, collecting a sack of mussels,
carrying it across the paddock and then they have a sack each and, ‘Oh these are too heavy,’ so they
leave the sack in the paddock and to rot and now this mussel bed is completely dead. Yeah, so they
resorted to go to DoC to close it down for everybody – Interviewee #10b
.....................
in 2006 we began mediation with the local council. By 2007 both parties were becoming quite
frustrated and so we decided to file with the Māori Court and pending their resource consent and post
our Environment Court experience, we then looked at what were all the mechanisms about in direct
negotiations and we decided to end the Treaty process, but what started it, [Interviewee #18b], was that
opposing water-taking out of our particular springs. It wasn’t so much the water-taking, it was the
amount of water that they wanted to increase and the length of time that they wanted to get it. Our
previous experience was it was only 10 years, now they were asking us for 25 year water consent and
almost triple the amount of the taking and at that point in time our people said, ‘No more.’ And that’s
what began our Treaty journey – Interviewee #13b
.....................
I was talking before about how we are coming into our asset base and are becoming more drivers of our
own future and things like that and how are we going to behave, although it doesn’t work with the way
the economic system is, we have to lead by example, which is by cutting back and not saying profit for
profit’s sake, you know, the quadruple bottom line accounting and it means making less money than
your competitor, which I find that’s a hard pill to swallow for a lot of Māori business, but that’s the
reality. If you’re going to walk your talk you’re going to have to cut back – Interviewee #18b
.....................
Interviewee #14b - to pull it together and sometimes some of our Crown officials or Crown agents don’t,
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aren’t willing to make it merge, whereas some have taken the time to do it.
Interviewee #29b – At some point those values systems will conflict and it’s when you got to get off the
fence and make a choice
.....................
Interviewee #20b - has anyone tried to define a commercial fish under a customary setting? Big
question ...
Interviewee #5b – Yeah it was which you know how we sort of coined the phrase ‘customercial’?
Interviewee #20b – Customercial? [laughs] That’s a good one actually.
Interviewee #5b – Right and why the Hapū Collective got together as hapū and tried to put, to
reintegrate customary, commercial, you know, a lot because once upon a time, pre-European, there
wasn’t any distinguishing between the two, you know, so now we’ve been chopped up into the pot, but
it was interesting that MFish presentation the other night that [X] gave, that in this pie diagram has
headed up (Māori intuition?). As far as I’m aware, we coined that phrase, [X], to be precise, around
what we’re trying to achieve with the asset holding company and the hapū and the Iwi Incorporated and
then the forum, which opted out of this process right before we signed it off, opted back in.
.....................
Interviewee #15b - So there’s things happening and I think this might be the time to define Ministry of
Fish’s role.
Interviewee #29b – Yeah absolutely
Interviewee #20b – So you’re going to come up short because they’ve already defined it and it’s called
Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans that look like this and so basically you’re going to be criteria 3 which is under
development you know, so [Interviewee #31] you’ve arrived at a point where it’s just better to carry on
without them because they’ll just get in the way or confuse.
Interviewee #31 – I think so and I think like [Interviewee #25b] said you will put your fisheries plans with
your iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plan and lodge it with regional councils under the Act, yeah. It still gives it that
national statute toward recognition through the Act.
.....................
we have been approached by Aotea Fisheries to do some surveys along there. We’ve told them that
they can do the surveys, but they aren’t to go in there to do any sort of harvesting or whatever until we-
well, no, it’s really we don’t even want to see the report. Well I suppose we do want to see the report
just to see how plentiful they are. We know that there’s no way we’re going to let them go in there and
do any harvesting though because that’s one of our main, you know, main kai. So if they can say to us,
‘Yes, there’s plenty there.’ ‘Oh, well thank you for doing that for us, we want that to remain like that.
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Just leave it alone.’ – Interviewee #29
.....................
one of the biggest things that we’ve been successful in so far is the extraction of kōhatu within the river.
We’ve been able to stop roading companies coming in on maybe three occasions. So for us, most of the
kōhatu are at the head at the top there, the awa. So it’s always been a worry for us that these roading
companies are going to continue to come in and for us if they start mucking around with that there’s
more silting that’s going to happen out there because they take that away. Floods happen, I mean
there’s a reason why those kōhatu have been put up there in the first place to slow the flow of the river
down – Interviewee #29
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Goal Setting
What are the long- and short-term goals of the kaitiaki? How are these identified?
Summary of key points:
Sustainability; access; kaitiakitanga; preservation; revitalisation; whanaungatanga;
<strong>mana</strong>akitanga; wairuatanga
Having a hapū-based, bottom-up approach to kaitiakitanga
Set up mātaitai to ban commercial fishing
Increasing education as a key to furthering progress, building capacity and succession planning,
and conducting marine research
Holding up the Treaty; be included in legislation; have power-sharing with the Crown
Ability to maintain a traditional diet based on kai<strong>moana</strong>
Maintaining hapū identity/<strong>mana</strong>
“we seek a calm seascape where people interact where <strong>mana</strong>gement is considered across a
wide range of factors and benefits. A seascape populated by seabirds and with stands of bush
for them to roost in. A seascape where the birdsong is complimented by te reo of our fishermen
and hapū continuing to do what defines us”
Provide kai<strong>moana</strong> for children; set up restricted fishing areas available only to elderly
Develop rāhui to preserve kai; temporarily close spawning areas
An abundant and diverse range of kai
Owning a boat to monitor catch; collect all customary kai for an area; decrease illegal fishing
Set up more spawning/reseeding programmes
Internationally train iwi members
Revive traditional knowledge; educate mokopuna
Protect whakapapa, customary rights, <strong>mana</strong>whenua, <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong>, <strong>mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong>,
tinorangatiratanga
Developing fish plans/mātaitai; establishing ownership of traditional resources; reclaim heritage
Blending L-A-W and L-O-R-E to establish kaitiakitanga
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Cut quotas
Quotes:
The long-term goals, environmentally for Te Rūnanga is to ensure that our coastal environment is
sustained in such a way that it allows our whanau and hapū to flourish and develop. That's the Rūnanga
vision or strategy. Now at the hapū level there is more about the exercise with tinorangatiratanga and
the kaitiakitanga and <strong>mana</strong>gement of their coastal environment that they have tūpuna rights over. –
Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1- So the driver is having a flourishing hapū base, that's the goal?
Interviewee #1– Yes
Interviewer #1 – There is no other, everything else flows from that-
Interviewee #1– Yeah, everything comes from the bottom and how we end up reaching our vision for
our strategy is through the structure of our Rūnanga and our Rūnanga is made up of 23 marae, each of
those 23 marae have two trustees that they put forward. The first is your primary voting delegate and
the second is just your standard so there's just a standard.
.....................
there was some concern that they were the preservation of our food stocks and that and the doing
visual tests and that we did find that the stocks were, had changed over the years. So what we looked
for was a solution in that to, or something to preserve the stocks– Interviewee #2
.....................
we looked at preservation over the area and therefore for food stocks and at that stage there was a
mātaitai in Aotea– Interviewee #2
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So the idea of having by-laws was an attractive option?
Interviewee #2– Yes, we could regulate the area and implement those regulations.
.....................
One of our biggest oppositions has been the community board ... it really interested them you know as
to how this was going to operate and at the end of the evening they understood a lot more about the
mātaitai reserve, not all of it, but they had a bit of understanding. Initially they thought it was a reserve
that was going to stop them from taking part in fishing and getting their bits, but I think the key to us
was sustainability. – Interviewee #2
.....................
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Interviewer #1 – That would have been quite good, almost like a revolving rāhui-
Interviewee #2– Exactly, that was our first concept when we first talked about the 186: we closed up
part of this area and used the other area every six months, but in order to do that, we had to do analysis
on the area, what food stocks were there and we had to have a place to start from. So basically, just
where we were looking at. Once we knew what sort of food stocks were in the area, then we could
work off that over the next five years, 10 years because it's a bigger plan. It's not just about putting
something here, we wanted to have evidence behind it to say that the stocks were there for our own
good.
.....................
I suppose our main objective really was, at that time, was the sea, ownership of our traditional
resources. – Interviewee #3
.....................
we had in our head wanted to do. We were very mentally prepared and we were, support-wise we
were prepared. We were prepared because we're well supported by our old people, a lot of the old
people, which was good. So that's all, we never, they were our korowai really. They were like the
feathers along the back of our korowai which gave us more comfort and every time we stood up there
was a lot of hammering, trying to hammer us back down, but I think because we were that prepared and
that staunch on the kaupapa that, ‘What are your kids going to eat? What are you doing to try and get
some kai for your kids? I don't know about you but we pretty much still depends on the sea. I'd rather
be eating stuff from the sea and the land then I would be travelling into town.’ I know that some of
those days are gone and stuff, but we still like to live that way. – Interviewee #4
.....................
because we still have to eat because that's one thing I'm pretty sure that our tīpuna look after our food
to just keep on growing and growing and growing on forever like a marine reserve. I'm pretty sure they
would have liked to have, you know, they're growing it for a purpose and so that's why you have a
rāhui– Interviewee #4
.....................
I want mussels between here and there. I want oysters over there and there– Interviewee #4
.....................
It looks like having a boat, the group of people that are actively <strong>mana</strong>ging the thing, they would have a
boat and they would have a boat that could monitor what comes in – Interviewee #4
.....................
you've got people using the current permit system as a tool, and forever will be a tool, to get undersized
stuff, sort of mocking it a bit, but that's how it's got into, people have become clever and that system,
which is being formed have found out ways in which they can use it. So eliminate that, you'd have a
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particular boat that goes out, that does all the harvesting for customary. Then you've got, eliminating a
whole lot of illegal stuff and then you've got to catch going to where it's supposed to go. That catch
would also be monitored. It will be measured. It will be recorded. – Interviewee #4
.....................
now another thing that would need to be done is have more, probably, HFOs into place so that they are
resourced. They may not be resourced financially, but they've got resources, equipment to help that
extra thing. – Interviewee #4
.....................
Certain areas that are accessible should be just closed off to old people so that they could just take their
little bucket were there (?) down there, sat down and just forage in the roots because they miss that. If
there's no place for our old people to have a kai and get that nice taste that balances them back or gives
them gout if they've had too much, they feel weak. They don't feel that connection either. But love to
see more old people on the boat. – Interviewee #4
.....................
I'd like to see and spawn more kinas down there, see more spawning programs where humans can
intervene in a positive way, not in a negative way which is just taking. But like to see people giving
back– Interviewee #4
.....................
so as a result we went about looking to structure ourselves and we’re now Incorporated, but it’s taken a
long, it’s a long haul– Interviewee #5
.....................
The Coastal Hapū Collective was, we determined to call ourselves the Hapū Collective. We didn’t want
to be involved in iwi wars. We didn’t see that that was our business. We just wanted to ensure that
each hapū retained its own <strong>mana</strong>. So our main objective is to whaka<strong>mana</strong> ia hapū ia hapū. –
Interviewee #5
.....................
it’s our birthright to look after ourselves and each other and the more legislation that was being written,
the less we were involved in the picture. – Interviewee #5
.....................
We weren’t looking for examples. All we could see was where the gaps were and there were gaping
wounds in our own flesh that we wanted to heal from the bottom up. – Interviewee #5
.....................
like sending people internationally for best practice and so up with the picture, networks that they
establish during their training phase. Who knows where it will take them, but at some point in time it
will benefit [X], whanui. – Interviewee #5
.....................
We don’t want to be splintered factions torn apart by different pieces of legislation. We want to be
integrated in the fishery and integrated as people. We owe it to ourselves. – Interviewee #5
.....................
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the mātauranga Māori contains more knowledge than what I picked up at Uni so if there’s, what I would
like to see is a total revival of that traditional knowledge and the transmission of it. ...we have to go that
bit further to guarantee our mokopuna their birthright. So I think we need to create employment for
them and opportunities so that they are free to move amongst and around and within mātauranga
Māori and they’re not dispossessed due to being on the poverty line and having to suffer in their quality
of life so that their children are born healthy and that they deservedly are happy in their home
environment and then their mātauranga is more accessible. ... I would love to see balance and
maramataka what you find where and when, how they’re fished because behind that you get the fish
behaviour, which is a scientific term for how fish behave. [laughs] Just to enhance their wellbeing and
encourage leadership so that the whanau/hapū/iwi never die. – Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what were the long-term objectives of the Kairakau Lands Trust and applying for the
mātaitai?
Interviewee #7- Access to kai<strong>moana</strong>, sustainability, kaitiakitanga.
.....................
we needed to be looking at around the <strong>mana</strong>gement of the kai<strong>moana</strong> in the area and how we were
going to do that. – Interviewee #8
.....................
I suppose that's why we sort of headed down the track of mātaitai, first of all, is that it would achieve
our outcome of wanting to remove commercial fishing. It would also give us that opportunity to look at
how can we start looking at replacing and we also knew that it would give us the opportunity to look at
research that could be done around us three species and surveys that we could be doing. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
In this role that we have agreed to take on, education is what I believe will help us achieve or work or
progress what we believe we’re there for. Education is going to help us feedback to those who
nominated us, to those who support us, what we want to do and why we want to do it to because
without it I don't think we would be able to do anything. Education, I think, is what's going to build our
capacity to help with succession planning because there needs to be succession planning after us, like
we can't be the beginning and the end. We need to be looking at how we can be doing succession
planning and I believe, education will play a big part in that because we won't have to do it otherwise
and so if we are looking at succession planning, we need to have education to up-skill and build capacity
for those who come behind us. So for me, education has quite a large role to play and how the
education is delivered and accessed and provided is also something that with the relationships of the
agencies that hopefully we can come to some agreement on as to how we work through. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
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I think we all have to understand the movement of our fish because for me, there is enough evidence
around, I've seen enough evidence around now to know that they come into the shallows at a certain
time of the year and day go back out into the deep at a certain time of year and again, we go back to
education. – Interviewee #8
.....................
we wanted to try and make a living off the land. – Interviewee #9
.....................
We wanted to protect our whakapapa, our customary rights, <strong>mana</strong>whenua, <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong>, <strong>mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong>
and tinorangatiratanga – Interviewee #9
.....................
We wanted to utilise the natural resources that we had inherited from my parents so we decided to look
into land-based aquaculture, that is pumping water from the sea, putting it onto the land in tanks and
with the view to farming crayfish and paua, or even kina, – Interviewee #9
.....................
The long term objectives were for us to successfully set up a aquaculture facility that could sustain us as
a family and the land block. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewer #1- So not only sustain the whanau but the wider community?
Interviewee #9 – Exactly, yes.
Interviewee #10 – And be part of the world economy.
.....................
the basis for the plan was to give effect to the Deed of Settlement and the protocols, fish protocols, that
was paramount. We could see regionally and nationally downward pressure on all types of resources,
kai<strong>moana</strong> being one of them and that we had to be proactive about how we played our role as kaitiaki, –
Interviewee #11
.....................
the whole vision of [iwi -X] has always been about revitalisation. There are essentially 10, nine muka or
nine strands that run along that big vision and one of them, there are a number of them, there is
whanaungatanga, mānakitanga, (oraungatanga?), kaitiakitanga, wairuatanga, (marama?). We wanted
the long-term objective is about kaitiakitanga. It is about being able to demonstrate kaitiakitanga now
and in the future. It's also about sustainability of resourcing and it's also going back to using some of the
traditional (noa forms?) of how sustainability goes including closed areas, (erama?), but the long-term
objective of such a plan was to make sure there was kai for our tamariki and their tamariki and their
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(kiatu?) and using today's environment, we thought that the plan would move us somewhere down that
track. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Having a blank canvas sometimes can be really challenging if you don't have a start point. Our start
point was understanding who we are, what we're about, where we want to go to and the whole idea of
having a Pātaka o Tangaroa, or a fish plan, as opposed to throwing it together with an environmental
plan. We want to be seen in a tangible way of how we deal to that part of our mahi in Tangaroa, as
opposed to DoC, as opposed to other things that we do. – Interviewee #11
.....................
the main objective was sustainability of the resource, the kai, healthy environment, all that stuff. So
that gave us the most satisfaction of being able to, in our worldview anyway, pull that off, marrying L-A-
W and L-O-R-E to the extent that we think that we can deliver our kaitiakitanga– Interviewee #11
.....................
That picture looks like an abundance. It looks like species choice. It looks like healthy environment. It
looks like better awareness between all communities, yeah and it looks like an abundance for all in a
sustainable way. ... that's where we think that this plan will take us, but not in isolation. We've offered
it up to the rest of Taranaki iwi as a blueprint because fundamentally our values and that are all the
same. How we interpret it might be slightly different but fundamentally they are the same. –
Interviewee #11
.....................
we cannot turn away from the challenge of making L-A-W, L-O-R-E work because our kids and their kids
are going to be living in that environment anyway. I think that's not only for this work in commercialism
and business, anything we do. They do meet. Sometimes the people do have a problem of what takes
precedence and that's more the issue rather than can they and while the Westminster's system tells you
that there is one law for all, we know, those of us who live in Māoridom, that there is other sets of laws
as well. So yes they can work hand-in-hand. – Interviewee #11
.....................
That gives us some confidence that we will, at the end of the day, still have kai there for our mokopuna
and their mokopuna. – Interviewee #11
.....................
no watercress grows there anymore, so I guess [iwi-X]’s aim now is to replenish the river with
watercress. – Interviewee #12
.....................
Interviewee #12 - I guess the ironic thing about it all is that we now have to farm watercress and kākahi
and even koura. They’re not naturally, they don’t naturally grow anymore.
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Interviewee #14– So in other words, we’re having to perform our own interventions to try and reclaim
back ... not just our traditional resources, but our heritage.
.....................
it is our intention to publicly notify our iwi environment <strong>mana</strong>gement plan on our web site and it is our
intention to put out the strategic plan and once we have our annual business plan signed off it is our
intention to put all those documents out there too. ... in terms of our process, first we take the
information back to the house, we share it with our people. When our people sign it off, then it
becomes public, as far as we’re concerned and then we’ll put it through that web site stuff and
everything. – Interviewee #13
.....................
Interviewer #1- why did you choose to go down the taiāpure because it was hot on the heels of the 1992
SeaLord’s settlement?
Interviewee #15– Yeah
Interviewer #1 - It was seen as a good tool to have?
Interviewee #15– Yeah
Interviewer #1 – The motive was restoring kai<strong>moana</strong> abundance?
Interviewee #15– And having control of it of that so that we could restore it. It was to restore, yeah, and
having control enough to be able to restore control taken, things like that, but there's always been that
environmental restoration ethos there in that mix always.
.....................
Because I think it has to happen. If we can see that the kai<strong>moana</strong> has come back and Tangaroa’s been
looked after, then we can revisit upping quotas but I don't think, I think it's overfished anyway. It's going
to be really hard to see that utopia without cutting some of the quotas– Interviewee #15
.....................
Our long term objective was for us to always be able to go to the <strong>moana</strong> and get a feed, doesn’t matter
where we were or who we were as long as they were able to go and get what they want. – Interviewee
#16
.....................
one thing for a utopia is that reseeding, reseed, reseed for the next five years when we get money from
foreshore, but the thing is is that the dive there closes during winter. That’s the utopia is everybody’s
got a pātaka, we close it during winter and we will guard it. Now summer we open it up then you have a
fisheries officer or somebody standing on our beaches with a tent saying, ‘Come one and all, go diving
but you’ve got to go through here,’ give them the means to measure on every beach we’ve got and
then we’re away and then reseeding, reseeding every winter for five years. Then doing a stock take of
what’s out there again, having a look and then start again for another five years. So that you’re no
longer, then you’ll help nature, then you’ll help guard what they’ve got. Then you leave it. We have
75

heaps of kai for that, but what we don’t have is heaps of food in there for it to eat so we need to reseed,
reseed, that’s my utopia. And mine is to start a five-year plan where, I know (farfetched?) but we just
keep reseeding and reseeding. During that time I’d like to get the high schools involved, you know, you
get seven forms, six forms, they always like days off at school. We’ll show them how to do it, you know.
You take a whole busload of them out, ...Get there early, get them all out there, start reseeding all along
our coastline, ... And then the next two days after that, come back, reseed again and we’re looking at
every three or four days for the first month and then stop in the later months and check what you have
in there and reseed again and then after three or four months, have a look, then move, move the
operation a bit further down and start that one and then after three months you come back where you
started, do that again and then you do the next ones. Then you go down a bit further and help them.
Then you come back to the beginning again every three months, now that’s nine months. Every three
months you’re coming back. – Interviewee #16
.....................
people don't come to look at houses on the hill. They come to see the nature. They come to interact
with the waterways and the fisheries and for that economy to have value long-term, there needed to be
a set of rules, I guess, put in place by which we, as Māori, could live by but also would give effect to the
economy that it was reliant on it. – Interviewee #17
.....................
we felt as though we were doing something to help the fishery. We are totally reliant on it as a coastal
people, totally. We could see that it needed help and so we undertook a couple of things, a couple of
real important things. – Interviewee #17
.....................
the communities that live there ..., in their own way, can work together in exercising kaitiakitanga and
I'm not talking just about Māori. I'm talking about also the Europeans that live there because those
same principles can be absorbed by them if we embrace them into what is kaitiakitanga and we've
actually started doing that. ... It also means that the Māori, who are the biggest landowners out there,
also play their part. If all of those elements come together then you will sustain an economy that can
keep everybody together. But if you rape and pillage it, it is going to disconnect you are going to
disconnect it. – Interviewee #17
.....................
I would like us to have influence over the fishery in the inner Bay of Islands. I have to say that the rules
that have applied up until now haven't really sustained the fishery. In fact it's gone the other way. I also
think that there are a lot of dynamics at play. Commercial fishing is really important and Māori are a big
part of that, but they shouldn't be hanging off the Cape (Bret?) Peninsula with a pair of (sailors?) and
picking up schools and schools of kahawai. ... They need to be pushed out. Now the thing is though
that the inner bay is really important to the ecology of the area because it's a breeding ground. It's not a
place where big fish gather. It's where little fish grow and they need to be given a chance. Also, the
restrictions need to be imposed on seasonal openings and closings. For example, in September, October
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when the snapper come into spawn off that reef down off the back of (Motorua?) They should be left
alone,...if you break that cycle it damages the fishery ... that's the way we understand it. So we are
saying that it would be nice to have a model that is built around not how much you take out but how
much you put in – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewee #19 – [the taiāpure] had achieved quite a bit, but it could do more.
Interviewer #1 – Could do more, but that’s great, isn’t it? That’s a great outcome-
Interviewee #19 – I think with the recent layoff in the last three or four years it died. It needs to be
picked up again, you know, but it needs to be picked up again to where it was, yeah, that’s my thinking
of it. That’s my thinking of it. It needs to be picked up to where it was.
.....................
Interviewee #20 – I don’t know if I’d call the Kahungunu one species-by-species. This was their own
Ngāti Kahungunu-driven one. So it was outside-
Interviewer #3 – Oh this wasn’t the Fish plan?
Interviewee #20 – Well it’s their Fish plan, Ngāti Kahungunu, that’s all they have and that’s driven by
themselves and I know MFish contributed $50,000. I know Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> contributed $50,000+ and
Ngāti Kahungunu itself, so yeah, I believe it was at least a quarter of a million dollars in producing that
plan.
.....................
Yeah, it’s pretty obvious to me that the biggest question facing us in the 21st century is the environment
and our environmentality. There’s no bigger question to me than the green question and so if you’re
sort of thinking of the generation behind us and how they would look back and go, ‘Oh gosh they did a
good thing in the start of the 21st century,’ you know, and it might be the carbon emissions, it might be
we changed our approach to farming where we didn’t let stock, because everyone’s, they stock graze
right in every waterway, don’t they? Going where they see as a pretty easy irrigation system, whereas
that’s, I think there’s some fairly big evidence, clear evidence that that’s quite an unhealthy thing. It’s
damaging the ecology with those waterways which damages the, it’s had huge impact on the nurseries
of estuarine and all those tributary areas for fisheries, our fishery. So those are the kind of, those are
the challenges, I would say, the thinking, like think ahead. Try and think like our children should be
thinking and look back at us - Interviewee #20
.....................
I believe that we’re actually on the road towards power-sharing, but we have to be ever-vigilant because
it’s not going to be given to us. We have to make sure that we tick all the boxes and that we’re able to
prove to the Crown that not only do we want to have this power-sharing, but we have a right to it ...
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nowhere is, in my view, is Māori principles, Māori tikanga and Māori kawa is taken into consideration
when making laws, bylaws, toward the conservation of our food source ... originally before colonisation
we were the ultimate, consummate conservationists. – Interviewee #22
.....................
Interviewer #1 – Yes. Do you find it easy to take action, like could you put in a rāhui without the use of
say the statutory powers or options and do you feel that people would respect that? Do you think the
community’s in tune with the aspirations and vision of the hapū? This isn’t a question here, I’m just
asking.
Interviewee #22– I think that ultimately everybody is concerned about the wellbeing of our whenua and
our waterways, but I don’t believe that everybody is properly informed about each other and how each
other relate to the land and legislation and bylaws are something that are foreign to most people, until
you do something wrong, then you get to know about the law. What we took was ours as right. There
are bylaws in place that say, ‘No, that’s not correct.’ And so knowledge is probably the key to, I guess, to
the understanding of how we can relate to each other and how we can connect with the land and how
we can ultimately protect and conserve the land, our waterways and the food.
.....................
we are supported by our own hapū. Financially, we put our hands in our own pockets, but we know that
with the settlements we’ll start to be able to financially viable and we hope that however the local
authorities’ financed we will be part of that because we will become a partner. That’s our desire within
the region, to <strong>mana</strong>ge all of our resources. – Interviewee #22
.....................
In our deed and in the other deeds there is provision for the iwi for all of the other iwi to develop our
own objectives for the Waikato River and we will be doing that shortly. We will be starting that process
shortly and obviously for [iwi-X] to develop them for the Waipara River in its entirety. So the objectives
were, iwi-specific and that’s something that our deed provides for. – Interviewee #24
.....................
I think objectives will be very, very important and they will be a benchmark against which people can
assess policy, our monitoring results, in other effectiveness of policy and planning tools, because
without objectives, without clear-stated objectives, what are you measuring against and it could be
visionary, other visionary (straintments?). There might be something that looks like objectives, but I
think having a clear-stated set of objectives is very important and you can see the power of those in the
vision strategy. ... So these were objectives developed by the Guardians Establishment Committee and
consultation with the River iwi and the wider community and these objectives have gone straight into
the RPS and they are very, very powerful. When the River Authority, which is now taken over from the
GEC who developed these original objectives, when we reviewed the vision strategy, we then had to
take into account the other iwi objectives. So those are the [iwi-X] specific objectives and they have
been incorporated into these objectives, but these are, and we had to have particular recognition for
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those objectives. So I think you’re right. I think the objectives will be a core, will be a very important
part of any kind of co-<strong>mana</strong>gement framework in the future. – Interviewee #24
.....................
[iwi-X]’s different in that they’ve gone through the process before us, so their objectives will be in their
deed and the visions, the GEC’s, the vision strategy’s objectives will be in the Settlement legislation. The
objective and strategies, the vision strategy is also enabled through the Ngāti Tuwharetoa, Raukawa and
Te Arawa Waikato River Act. So our piece of legislation, so it’s good, in effect, too, through legislation.
So they’re clearly stated in our deed. – Interviewee #24
.....................
We didn’t want to lock people into a whole lot of, sort of, you’ll do such-and-such at a certain day of the
year and it was more about trying to establish a relationship and understand each other a bit better.
The Fisheries Accord is quite significant in that there’s got to be an iwi fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan
developed as a part of our iwi environmental <strong>mana</strong>gement plan and the iwi fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan
has to encompass our commercial, customary, recreational and environmental fisheries aspirations and
that’s not something we’ve ever had before. – Interviewee #24
.....................
We’re arguing that through the objectives provided for in the vision strategy, which is now a part of the
regional policy statement that the regional council has to give effect to the restoration and protection of
the relationship of Waikato River iwi according the tikanga and kawa with the Waikato River including
the economic, social, cultural and spiritual relationships. So we’re arguing for a preferred status activity
rule to give effect to our economic relationship as part of our wider relationship with the river because
unless we’re able to develop our lands and unless we’re able to develop our fisheries, where does that
leave us in terms of our overall, our overarching relationships. So there’s an example of how without
the vision strategy, without it being dropped into the RPS we would never have been able to get a leg up
on that argument. – Interviewee #24
.....................
So getting our plan in place will be just fantastic because it will be our blueprint, you know, it will be,
when you deal with us, what are we expecting, what are our visions, what are our goals and aspirations
and so the capacity and capability funding money has allowed me to employ both senior and
intermediate staff and developing that plan that one of our senior staff that’s basically entirely her job
for the next two years is to run that programme and make sure that plan is developed. – Interviewee
#24
.....................
one of the reasons why we haven’t done one, [X], is that all the previous five years while I’ve been on
my own, I’ve not wanted to write one that’s just a desktop exercise and then it just sits on the shelf at all
79

of those local authorities and I knew if we did one I wanted to do a really good one and spend the time
because it’s the kōrero, it’s the whakaaro, the kōrero which raised through the process that actually is
important as the plan in itself and we sort of doing it, like we set, the Anglican church is a two-house
model, so there will be all the stuff with our people but we’re also going to work it through with our
partners and stakeholders at the same time and get the crossovers so we get the linkages. – Interviewee
#24
.....................
there’s a very strong provision for us in setting regulations, yep. So we hope to become the issuers of
permits. We’ll have kaitiaki on the river and we’ll be issuing our own permits and etc, etc for customary
fishing activities on the river, yeah, but there are a whole lot of other customary activities associated
with the river that (a)?) went out and (?) from doing. We don’t get access or whatever and so that was
one of those key things was to try and, is that again, about that relationship with awa is nurturing all
aspects of that relationship. – Interviewee #24
.....................
I think one of the probably biggest challenges, [X], just my own personal view is that all of the iwi agreed
to a collective framework on the principles that we all know, a holistic approach to the environment
works best and we wanted to see the river <strong>mana</strong>ged as a whole living being, you know, and to restore
mauri and to restore and protect the river we had to work together collectively and the challenge will
be, the challenge I think, I see some of the challenges what will be the relationship between the River
Authority and the Regional Council because you’ve introduced a whole new authority into an
established RMA and LGA process so that’s going to be a really interesting kind of testing point for a
while. What’s the relationship between the Waikato River Authority and the respective iwi authorities
in terms of making decisions within a particular rohe? And that can be, it could be as simple as if the
River Authority are called on to appoint a commissioner in relation to a consent within the [X] rohe we
would firmly expect them to contact us and say, ‘Who would you recommend in that instance?’ But the
right that we absolutely retain in agreeing to the wider co-<strong>mana</strong>gement framework was that we are
<strong>mana</strong> whenua in our rohe and we maintain <strong>mana</strong> whenua and we won’t move from that point and
understandably all the other iwi at the same point, but so that’s going to be really interesting to see a
new collective organisation for the whole of the river which everyone’s really passionate about, so that
interface. It will be the changing of the culture as we’ve talked about during the interview, you know,
and the changing of those things takes some time– Interviewee #24
.....................
I think ownership’s going to be something that will take much longer because actually there’s a huge
tribal water for instance, as well, like some people, our tribe for example, doesn’t want to talk about
ownership. We sort of think how can you own something that owns you so our kawa, our tikanga is that
we’re here to look after it but we certainly don’t own it, but we’re responsible for <strong>mana</strong>ging it in a
prudent way. What I’m saying is that there has to be a at a national policy statement level, if not higher,
a formal recognition of the relationship between iwi and water and that should filter down through all
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water <strong>mana</strong>gement and governance in New Zealand. These are recognised Treaty rights, as it should be
for minerals and costal stuff, those sorts of things, but that would have been extremely helpful. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
3] The continued health of our people is supported by several planks;
i) whanaungatanga whakapapa i.e. our beneficial relationships to each other which are fundamental and
essential to our identity- this is based on hapū relationships from our ancestor [X] through his sons [X]
and [X] to us the descendants.
ii) Important for [X] is the standing and upholding of te Tiriti
iii) The strength of kuia and Kaumatua to guide our continued development.
iv) Traditional diet based on kai<strong>moana</strong> – Interviewee #25
.....................
One of the underlying principles of the rohe <strong>moana</strong> establishment process has always been that
eventually the Takiwaa notifications would become fused into a single <strong>mana</strong>gement regime as espoused
by the tatou, tatou phrase. This is an overarching strategy formulated and consistent with the Te
Rūnanga a Iwi o [X]Takiwaa structure. This outcome would then maintain the inter hapū relationships.
Other outcomes would be the successful use of the Regulations to maintain our hapū identity and
extend the Kaitiakitanga within the Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regs into the Maori paradigm of integrated <strong>mana</strong>gement
across freshwater and marine environments. – Interviewee #25
.....................
Looking forward - we seek a calm seascape where people interact where <strong>mana</strong>gement is considered
across a wide range of factors and benefits. A seascape populated by seabirds and with stands of bush
for them to roost in. A seascape where the birdsong is complimented by te reo of our fishermen and
hapū continuing to do what defines us– Interviewee #25
.....................
I think our vision is no different to the mātaitai reserve body. We all want to do the same thing,
maintain the health and the preserving of the food stocks … That is the main object – Interviewee #27
.....................
I thought it was just the sewage from Napier and Hastings, you know, it’s highly emotive, that obviously
five river systems finishing up in that one wee stretch from the cape around to Port Napier, I mean
something’s got to give and so I don’t think how are we going to get our abundance back because like
talking about <strong>mana</strong>gement I think is such a dream when we don’t even have the fish to start with. So it
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would be great if we could see some effort put towards, well restoring those bivalve beds up and down
our coast you know, as a national effort – Interviewee #5b
.....................
as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua haukainga, we can’t afford the next grave to contain the last amount of traditional
knowledge, you know, so we have to be proactive about picking up what’s left and moving forward and
to get our young people involved because they come down to spade. They’re in the schools, come to do
the digging, the planting, the maintaining, all that sort of thing and you know, these programmes like
two and a half years old and you know, we’ve sort of doing more and more and more as time goes on –
Interviewee #5b
.....................
Actually, under a utopia customary rights wouldn’t need to enter the colonial process and they wouldn’t
need to go into the political system to be recognised and then after that, subject to commercial lobby
and then after commercial lobby it’s always introduced for the physical good of the nation. So under a
utopia, customary rights would come first – Interviewee #10b
.....................
One of the models that we consider just in doing a, I’m not sure what you’d call it, but it’s our way of
doing a quick assessment of the things that we get into development. We use it as an assessment
model ... and we call it C-STEPLES. Now I’ve got from the University, you know, the development model
called PESTES you remember the PESTES model? PESTES, P-E-S-T-E-S and it’s about Political,
Environmental and all those sorts of things. Well what we do is we kind of step back and we redefine
that PESTES model and we call it C-STEPLES and the things that we look at when we’re evaluating
something seeing which way we’re going to approach it is to use this model and what it is is it’s our
indicators about what are the impacts of this on your Culture, on our Spirituality, on our Environment.
What are the Political things that will enable this to happen or inhibit it, our barriers. What are the Legal
implications of this legislation ... What are the Economic benefits of development of the, and of course,
it must have some Social wellbeing and the (?) attached to it. So I was just offering that as a kind of
support to understand the context ... so I’ve written it down here, Cultural, Spiritual, [Technological],
Environmental, Political, Legal, Economic, Social. That’s the C-STEPLES model that we use - Interviewee
#13b
.....................
we need to have an input and an impact as we go along the process so that when we come out at Deed
of Settlement, we’re not just beginning. We’ve actually got to a platform where we’re, if we wanted to
go into developmental strategies, it’s just a matter of identifying the right path and then following it and
so we’ve been very lucky. We have achieved (?) where some others haven’t – Interviewee #14b
.....................
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We’ve investigated ourselves and we talked about fishing and aquaculture and what we’re looking at is
probably Step 1, still investigating, but Step 1 would be about setting up a programme for reseeding
koura into our rivers, but something that we’ve always promoted, not just as part of our Treaty
Settlement negotiations, but also as an environmental model for ourselves is we, and you’ve heard of
the watercress model, and that watercress model is our little river in its heyday was known throughout
Te Arawa as the main river for watercress. You got a hui on or a tangi in the ‘40s, ‘50s, and ‘60s, that
was the river you went to get watercress to feed your marae. In the ‘30s we’ve got kaumatua as part of
our historical negotiations that (??) was eating our trout, our koura and getting our watercress. So the
green was always watercress. So part of our environmental model is again, is the watercress model and
if the day a watercress grows throughout our watercress again, naturally, after we’ve reseeded it and it
comes back after you’ve gone and harvested it, that’s the day we can say, ‘Our river, our environment is
healthy.’ – Interviewee #14b
.....................
that’s what we refer to when we refer to time and time again, both our own people and with
government officials to the watercress model. Part of it is because we also know that it’s a filter so we
know that if it’s healthy then our river’s healthy. If our river’s healthy, we’re healthy – Interviewee #14b
.....................
Yeah, I’m just generalising here, but historically the relationships with hapū, iwi and local government,
they’re not great and so we’ve had to use our Treaty processes to try and improve that relationship
because we need to establish a mātaitai or your taiāpure, we had to deal with that. So you use
whatever tools you’ve got – Interviewee #18b
.....................
you can’t tell me that these things that we’re talking about that they cannot fit within the legislations
and the policies that are set by the government. You cannot tell me that and this fellow over here, he
can make it fit, because he knows what we’re saying, he knows what our feelings are and we’ve
evidenced that through our Treaty claims stuff you know, and it’s about sitting there, listening, us having
kōrero like this to find a way how to make it fit, make it happen – Interviewee #18b
.....................
Interviewee #14b - don’t develop for development sake only. If you’re going to develop, make sure it’s
enhancing what you’ve got, not going to destroy it and that’s really in terms of what development
should be like and that’s why I go with the quadruple accounting, because quadruple accounting, all it is
is a philosophy and make sure that communities get something out of it too. It’s not just solely about
making profit. ... It’s about everything that makes up our environment and our (?) what we live on. So
that’s the type of prospectus we as Māori corporates, I believe, need to be investigated ... because there
has been a drive by certain groups to profit for profit’s sake and I don’t support that.
Interviewee #18b – How do we build the social capital and how do we quantify it? On the balance
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sheet, which is what counts for most people, unless you can see the social capital quantified on there is
not, you’re wasting your money, you’re wasting the money on the kids, or doing these things that are
not going to produce a dollar, now we did something where we’re adamant about the social capitalbuilding
is number one and it might cost you a bit more in the short-term but in the long-term it’s going
to pay off ten-fold. So you’ve got to reflect that for the bean counters.
.....................
So the end result for us was the Toheroa Accord, which in 2000 they tried to institute, only one iwi
picked it up, the other five iwi kept harvesting off (?) beds of toheroa and the toheroa were increasing,
increasing, increasing in numbers to the point that the main bed was 16kms long in 2004. The local
people, without any scientific knowledge said, ‘The toheroa are going to be leaving the beach soon.’
And they all said, ‘Rubbish!’ [background noise] They all got together, they accepted the local people’s
kōrero, the iwi rūnanga groups. They made a decision that they would all stop harvesting or issuing
permits for harvest and they did and that was it. All over, all done and so there was an agreement
amongst the people and within two months the toheroa were gone as well – Interviewee #25b
.....................
Interviewee #10b –in terms of a utopia, I would like to see at least one food basket for each marae in
the country to enable them to supply, give their <strong>mana</strong>akitanga to their guests. So I’m not coming from
the top, I’m coming from the bottom now to try to give at least a minimum
Interviewee #25b – Yeah and food basket? What does that mean?
Interviewee #10b – it could be a mātaitai, something like that so that they basically, you know, a
sustainable kai<strong>moana</strong> basket so that people can <strong>mana</strong>aki their guests. It would be nice to see one for
each marae.
.....................
You know we can’t solve these things overnight, but the first thing we need to do in my opinion is to
secure good knowledge around what fish is being extracted and what fish needs to be left behind –
Interviewee #25b
.....................
A utopia for me, I guess, would be best indicated by those end results, how easy it is to go fishing, how
far you have to go, how often you can go and the quality of the fish that you come back with. The
utopia for me would be best measured by that, not necessarily the processes that lead to those results
but those would be preferable outcomes and so I’d want to see the same sort of traditional fishing
grounds used as we know used to exist. For example, from Rapiti to Russell, a distance of 22 kms,
there’s 19 pipi beds which are now defunct. They’re not there. We would like to see each of those 19
beds up again and running and at the moment everyone has to go to one bed (Pokai tane?) That’s the
only one that’s left and at massive impact on it. If we had the other 19 beds available, I think all of them
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would be in a much healthier position. So that would be an indicator of utopia. All of our known
traditional grounds were actually consistent and able to be used – Interviewee #25b
.....................
But the visions are, yeah, all of that is the same because what we want to do is see that we are able to
go and get a pipi today, tomorrow, you know, right into the future. That’s all it is and at the end of the
day, that’s what it boils down to – Interviewee #29b
.....................
this is where the individual property rights stuff comes in too I suppose is that yeah we are in align to
that providing that, well it will be ours at the end of the day, no one else’s because we’re the ones who
are living here. We’re the <strong>tangata</strong> whenua of this area. We’d like to see that stuff that the kai<strong>moana</strong>
are available for us forever, not just you know, but how do we do that? How do we do that? How do
we get the resources? There’s the Ministry of Fisheries, I don’t know whether I’ve got any confidence in
them anymore. When we started off with the Te Kupenga forum, Te Kupenga a Maui thinking that this
is where we were going to get some support – Interviewee #29
.....................
Yeah we’ve got an iwi authority that’s been established to Iwi Rakaipaaka and the vision for the people
was so that everything would be centralised in one thing so it would address all the issues that come up,
whether it be fishing, whether it be Treaty, whether it be resource consent, local government stuff that
imposed on the, you know, they might, resource consent applications I’m talking about, yeah anything
around development that may impact on the environment – Interviewee #29
.....................
We’re having to deal with other issues which we know are important, but we still want some stuff
happening straightaway in our area you know? We want to see a research boat out there having a look
at what’s in there. We want to see you know, us getting together just having a wānanga to say, ‘Well
actually we have got sort of a templated,’ well that’s the last I knew before I left, we had a templated
fisheries thing for ourself. What does Rakaipaaka want to see happen in their rohe<strong>moana</strong>? So there
were a few things that Rakaipaaka indicated from previous wānanga. They want to see what does a
mātaitai do for us? What does a taiāpure do for us? What does a, you know, what are the things? How
can we get commercial if we’re eligible for that? How can we get our own fisheries assets back from
Ngāti Kahungunu to <strong>mana</strong>ge ourselves, you know, that’s all part of fisheries planning. How can we get
our own people out there fishing in our rohe? Can we do our own pāua farm and things like that? –
Interviewee #29
.....................
I think, for me, what I’ve learnt is that there is an ability to have some sort of plan and these are the
things we might be able to include in our plan. We know that there’s NIWA who can provide us with
85

esearch people – Interviewee #29
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Initiating Change
What are the actions taken by iwi and individuals to help bring about change?
Summary of key points:
Furthering education for Māori to help fill <strong>mana</strong>gement roles
Set up community-based (grass roots) marine projects; don’t wait for government solutions;
lead by example
Rangitahi are taking initiatives toward making a difference and starting monitoring/reseeding
programmes (illegally)
Iwi fundraisers to help fund projects
Convince younger people to dive for kai so that elders can collect in shallow water; encourage
dropping off food to elders; give rangitahi something to do/be a part of
Teach other fishermen to give back to the environment
Insisting on te reo being used in dealing with the Crown
Philosophy change around dealing with the Crown regarding funding and paperwork (work
within the Crown system to get what you need)
Reduce quotas
Encourage people to take middle-sized (not largest) fish
Restocking crayfish has helped make them available to elders
Creating fish plans in order for councils to include hapū values in planning
Utilising the Treaty Settlement process to have spiritual values legally recognised; setting
precedent for environmental law
Adapt tikanga, according to the current situation, but maintain kawa at all times
Correct your own whanau when you see them doing something that could harm the
environment; get them thinking of new ways to do things
Utilise opportunities that come out of conflict with Crown
Quotes:
I noticed was that our people were wanting the <strong>mana</strong>gement of their fisheries. They were wanting the
<strong>mana</strong>gement of the conservationist states, all of those resources, yet, there was nobody on the ground
87

to deal with how they are going to be <strong>mana</strong>ged at that level. So I ended up becoming a second-timearound
student and done the Bachelor of Iwi Environmental <strong>Mana</strong>gement degree by Te Wānanga o
Aotearoa. – Interviewee #1
.....................
I think we wanted to implement some of our cultural values and I think that was the closest to it. –
Interviewee #2
.....................
I mentioned the phrase ‘tinorangatiratanga’, I must admit that I think the Crown are reluctant to use
Māori words in the Deed of Settlement so we might be lucky if they used the word ‘rangatiratanga’ or
‘rangatira’, rangatiratanga or tinorangatiratanga. Tinorangatiratanga, I don't think they’d be happy
inserting that in the other protocols, but we are fighting that. ... The use of Māori words, they are
reluctant to use. We are maintaining a strong commitment that we want these words used, especially
tinorangatiratanga. I mean it's our court too with the Treaty and that. ... So we're striking resistance to
the use of, mainly that phrase, tinorangatiratanga. – Interviewee #3
.....................
So we set up this thing, ..., Coastal Marine Strategy, – Interviewee #4
.....................
we went and got some money and put it into that so we started growing karengo that way, but then we
also knew from stories of our old people how they used to transplant karengo back in the days and we
transplanted that and that's grown pretty well now. – Interviewee #4
.....................
me and [X] stood up, took a stand and said, ‘This is what were going to do this is why we're going to do
it, for our old people and ourselves and future generations and we're going to make sure that it happens
because we're sick of the talking.’ We were really quite sick of talking. So we thought of all these ways
of how we could, first of all find out what was in the sea, ... through some research that I had done with
Bay of Plenty Polytech, some underwater surveying techniques. We do similar techniques to that to do
kina, paua, crayfish surveying. So those were 50 x 10 m transects. The paua one was 50 x 2 m. The kina
one was the same as the koura one and we also carried out these other projects, like we had pots along
the transect and we would do day and night dives on them to see if there's any difference. Then we
would actually, before the pot was pulled up, we would dive down to that pot to see how much crayfish
were on the outside of the pot and how much was inside, measure what was female, male (?)–
Interviewee #4
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Or is it the other way, [X], the law doesn't fit the coastal need, Tangaroa’s need.
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Interviewee #4- The urgent need, like for an example, we've brought pipis down, and I don't care where
this goes, because they can go and look for them if they want to, ..., Somehow there's people in
(Waiotahi?) found out and they invited us back up there again. Me, [X], and a couple of others went up
and we actually thought we were going to get a growling(?) actually and so we went up to go and face
our growling and they came in and it was amazing
.....................
So we just had some water and so we put them in there and changed the water that we brought from
up there, put them in there and brought them down. So [X] transplanted them the next day and they
result from that we did some surveys after that, where some birds had eaten them, the ones that were
quite up high. We collected the shells of those, but 2000, over 2000, but less than 2500 were still in
there and what happened to those, we measured those. We plotted them in. We got handheld GPS,
plotted them in the water to see where they moved to and it just seems that after two years of closing it
off they had a really good spawn because there is like thousands in there. Before it was closed off there
was nothing in there over 3 mil, 3 cm after three years, or say, two and a half years, they basically, it was
the average of 5 cm. They were averaging 5 cm and the biggest one in there would have been our own,
which was would have been the ones which we transplanted from up there, was 10 cm so they've grown
another 3 cm. So the results from that, had we gone through the paperwork, I don't think we would've
been able to achieve any of that. Another thing that we had done was that we grew mussels, still
growing now– Interviewee #4
.....................
Financially, we were okay because we achieved heaps with what we had. ...So the food was donated,
our time was donated to cook it and the people just needed to come along, pay 20 bucks. There a
couple raffles going on too. We would also, at that time, to a couple of kapa haka items and then share
with them what it is we're doing. And so (Tau whanau?) you know, tell people this is what we're doing
and this is why we are having it and be proud to be a part of something that we all know that you all
want. – Interviewee #4
.....................
we used to sit there and see these bloody people that I knew could dive, that I knew could dive with
scuba gear and yet they're going out on the rocks. (?) ‘What can I do about this?’ So I used to go down
there and I said, ‘What do you think that you should, you can dive, can't you?’ And they were like,
‘Yeah, you know we can dive.’ I says, ‘Well why don't you go and put your scuba gear on and go and
dive because these rocks here, our old people could be gathering the kai. They don't need much. You
are taking a sack full of something that old people can eat over two months, ..., I used to say to them in
a nice way, so that they would listen because if you went down there and approach them in an ugly way,
they'll just get ugly back at you and they used to understand but it's not until you tell them and those
people have never been back there and now they are dropping food off of the old people, which is good.
– Interviewee #4
.....................
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He's 56 and he, I asked him to give a speech to the (young ones?) and he goes, he started off with,
‘When I was first starting diving, there was pāuas on top of pāuas, kinas on top of pāuas, now I'm still
diving and at those same areas and even anywhere else we’re driving there's paua here, paua there,’
and he says, ‘Over my years I've taken, taken and I have been given back and we're hoping that we can
install what we are teaching you now to give back,’ that sort of thing. I admit that I've taken and taken
and taken so this is a way for me to give back, – Interviewee #4
.....................
it was also good having a lot of younger people being out there in the community doing something
possible because ..., a lot of the young people at that stage here were just young, dumb, did nothing,
lazy wasters and things like that so it used to offend me a bit. ..., they can do something. They are not
useless. You just got to give them something to do– Interviewee #4
.....................
So we went through a whole philosophy change as well from quite happily accepting [X] as a volunteer
organisation to having to realise we need to, in terms of trying to complete our Treaty claims, we had to
change how we were operating and become an iwi authority and what with all that entailed, our
responsibilities in terms of resource <strong>mana</strong>gement, responsibilities of actual funding organisations, what
that meant, how, our funding application and all, you know. The first step of getting funding from any
organisation, it was like a learning curve for all of us. (?), but we can all have a hand in it now. You go
back 15 years ago, she [X] was the only one who could fill out our funding form. That was the
development that’s happened since then to the group you see today. – Interviewee #14
.....................
We were looking at knocking it down from six to three. I said, ‘How many people eat bloody crayfish
every day?’ ... that’s our biggest worry now is recreational use ... – Interviewee #16
.....................
we tell our people the middle size is better. ...as long as we have our breeders, we will always have
plenty there, but we’ve got to look at the practical side too and start buying some pāuas and restocking
from, getting money from Frst and all them you know and trying to restock again because we need to
look at try and help mating. – Interviewee #16
.....................
we’ve found is that we now have another, we now catch crayfish, whereas before we didn’t. Our old
people get a good taste of it now because we give it out to them. – Interviewee #16
.....................
that was really the reason why we did our fish plan, was a conjunct to doing a hapū plan as a defence
mechanism to councils to say that there were levels of standards by which we operated as a hapū and
we want them encompassed in their planning. In the past, the only consultation we had was more to do
with what you would call sacred areas, wāhi tapu and the only known tool of objection was a wāhi tapu,
when in fact, we found that the fishery was really where the impact was being caused and we knew also
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that we had rights under the Treaty to protect our fishery or our (tohunga?). So that was really the
thrust of it. – Interviewee #17
.....................
we’re only just coming to a place of relating in a good way and that’s been through the Treaty
settlement process. ... we got recognition of all three points of the Section 6e, 7a, Section 8, first iwi to
ever be accorded all three of those sections in the RMA. ... that’s in our Environment Court ruling, that’s
precedent. That’s a precedent for Environmental law. No iwi have ever been accorded all three
sections of the Act and what’s unique is that they recognise the spiritual relationship [X] have to the
Taniwha Springs or to the puna, which our law recognises spiritual values. It doesn’t get done. It
doesn’t happen, that’s the first time. – Interviewee #18
.....................
when it comes to our ability to make change I’m 110% optimist. I believe our tūpuna have the answers
for this whenua. We’ve got to stop looking outside and start looking within, because ..., the mātauranga
is there. ... it just blows my mind fully how deep and onto it they are, tūpuna were, ... they didn’t do
nothing without damn good reasons and real holistically-based reasons, you know, it has to be right on
all those levels before they did anything, so whenever there’s a question as to why we did something,
you know, well there better be a bloody good reason first and let’s find out what those reasons are
before we start messing with it and usually once we understand what the reasons were it becomes less
left to mess with it, just about tweaking it to be more effective about current situation. ... don’t mess
with the kawa, change the tikanga, but don’t mess with the kawa. Kawa is the centralness of that
reason we practice what we practice. Kawa is set by the gods and we can’t mess with that. Tikanga is
set by the people so we can change those things. – Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #18- I saw that some of the old uncles who were ex-Minister of Works workers, they dug a
little channel right to the river and that’s where the hose went and so the pump was pumping this
waste, kitchen waste, well it was waste water and was just channelling. They dug a nice, little channel
and it went straight in the river and I was like, ‘Oh my gosh! What’s that?’ That was their whole way of
thinking, you know,
Interviewer #1 – Just put it into the nearest waterway
Interviewee #18– Yeah, that’s why I was like ... I say, ‘That’s not cool, Uncle. We just had a big scrap
with the REC about them taking our water and that we love our awa and what are we doing? That’s not
cool. Put it into the grass. At least it will filter its way, you know, that’s the best we can do right now
with our five cents until we can fix the blinkin’ thing,’ but that’s an example of our own trying to,
because of that thinking, back to that thinking again.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Do you think things are getting better?
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Interviewee #18– Yeah, yep, totally, fully. It can only get better, I think. It’s the grassroots movements,
you know, taking control of our own communities and not waiting for the government to fix us up
because they’re not going to ... we’ve got to lead by example, ... we have to pull our belts tighter and we
need to be the ones to lead that change because you only lead by example and that doesn’t go down
well at all, but that’s just how it is.
.....................
Interviewee #18- It’s just getting the fellow with all the lollies ie. The Crown or the government to want
to sit down and play, you know, at the end of the day they hold all the power and the authority unless
they want to sit and play with you, they’re not going to and so we had to jump up and down and make a
big noise before we appeared on their radar and now everything’s much better, but you don’t get the
opportunities until you come into conflict, you know, it seems.
Interviewer #1 – You almost have to have the conflict sometimes in order to create a relationship,
almost
Interviewee #18– To create change, it takes, (what? said) takes a revolution to create a resolution.
Sometimes you have to say, ‘No, enough is enough,’ before people say, ‘Okay. Okay, I’ll be nice. I’ll be
nice and I’ll play nice.’ And it’s stink because you get your back pushed into a wall first. Unfortunately,
we wait until ... got our backs to the wall and we’ve got nowhere else to go... what it takes to get you to
the wall is the debilitating part, you know, and it took [iwi-X], what, 20-something years to get up from
the debilitating struggle, having their puna taken to get to a point of response and that’s a lot of time.
.....................
the taiāpure has put a bounty on the starfish ... it has to be the orange, eleven-armed starfish. We pay a
dollar. So if you get a half a sackful with 20 or 30 starfish in it and it’s quite common to get that, you’ll
get about 20 or 30 bucks, you know, and that pays for your you know, your air or your petrol for your
boat – Interviewee #19
.....................
we have a breeding programme up here for the whitebait and we have a guy, [X] in Rotorua, who’s on
the taiāpure with us and that’s his baby. He’s created that in the last three to four years and he’s done
very well. He seeks the funding for it through EBoP, you know, which has been fantastic. I don’t know if
it’s because he’s a Pākehā or what, he gets funding, but when I was there, sometimes our chairman, [X],
brings over the forestry workers and that and we do planting around the drains where the whitebait
come in to breed, burrow pits, it’s called. So yeah, that’s about the only programme that’s ongoing,
ongoing and has been well funded – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 – That’s a lot of kai going out, yeah. People come down here in the busloads, you
know, whether they have permits or not, we don’t know.
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Interviewer #1 – But they don’t need a permit. They can get 50 each in their bucket.
Interviewee #19 – 150 ... that’s why we’re trying to talk about cutting down the take, like all the
organisations on either side of us had dropped their mussel take down to 25 and that’s what we should
be doing too. ... I think [X]’s put it in the framework. 25 and 150 pipis, that’s only a 2-Litre ice cream
containerful, that’s how we thought, probably leave it at that, but it really needs surveying again. I
really think after this summer and if a rāhui needs to be put on it, let’s do it.
.....................
I think there’s scope for rāhui to be a more recognised tool, and I mean rāhui that isn’t actually endorsed
via an MFish process. Rāhui that a community buys into, you know, if you’ve got a community that says,
‘Well let’s leave an area or let’s only harvest at particular times and that’s rāhui, I would see huge
potential for that you know, so potentially the government could just fund ... not a huge fund, but a,
some way of empowering those communities to control the harvesting of kai<strong>moana</strong> in their area. And
A) that would sit quite comfortably with <strong>tangata</strong> whenua and a lot of communities too, I suspect, are
quite passionate about ensuring that the kai<strong>moana</strong> is available for the next generation – Interviewee
#20
.....................
Interviewer #3 – were you able to change MFish processes to achieve things and implement changes as
a result of a request from <strong>tangata</strong> tiaki kaitiaki?
Interviewee #20 – Did we change things? Yes ... getting the mātaitai in has changed because there’s
considerable opposition to mātaitai, firstly from the amateur community because they get a scare that
there’s going to be Māori-only fishing areas. They whip themselves up into a bit of a frenzy over that.
Commercially, they now have, well they’ve had for five years, their own how-to-object-to-a-mātaitai
application set of guidelines. So the commercial guys are very organised, as you’d imagine and they, so
to get a mātaitai through is actually quite an achievement, so in that respect, yeah there were changes
that occurred. It’s been locked up now though since the mātaitai process is all but come to a halt
.....................
our mokopuna, they have nothing to see. They only have stories that they hear from us about the
certain types of food and the abundance of the food that was available to us. Without protecting some
of these areas there’s nowhere for our kids to go and learn about the <strong>moana</strong> and Tangaroa and the food
basket of Ahuriri, so I’m pleased to be able to support that and to be able to make a difference there if
we are successful in closing part of our beach off because the schools use it quite regularly along there
and I wasn’t aware just how important it was until my mokopuna, he’s four, came home and told me all
about his visit to Harding Road and looking at all the shells and that at the seafront and I thought, ‘Gosh,
you know, we really need to take this seriously. We talk about it. We continually berate local
government and central government about the things that they’re not doing, but at the grassroots level,
I think we can make a difference as well if we lobby the right people and join together. Do this
collectively.’ – Interviewee #22
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all the hapū, then I think I should be told. ...That’s my feelings on how I’ve been at hui. Say, ‘Well we’ve
already been there. We don’t need to go there anymore, [X], we all know about that.’ ‘Well you might,’
but I feel that I’m pretty well high up on the, on Maslow’s hierarchy scale and I don’t know about it and
there’s a hell of a lot of people underneath me that you know, are waiting for the trickledown effect and
they don’t know about it. So with knowledge comes power and if you empower people, you’ll get the
support, but if you don’t tell them anything, feed them mushrooms and keep them in the dark-–
Interviewee #22
.....................
what we’re finding is that the practitioners, the resource consent processing guys and the policy stuff,
they’ve wanted something like this. They’ve wanted to give effect to much greater environmental
change for a long time, but the political nature of regional and local government is such that the councils
get nervous about pushing something and back off and the staff are desperate to do something about
the environment but they haven’t had the mandate or they don’t feel like they’ve had the mandate and
so it’s what’s really interesting is that the empathy and the acceptance and the willingness to work with
us from the practitioners, themselves. – Interviewee #24
.....................
So we’ve got the hook that hooks that are unmovable because they are legislated and then you just
build off those foundations and the other question you asked me, is it really going to give effect to
change? It’s going to take time. We’re changing cultures. We really are and so it’s going to take time to
give effect to it. It’s not going to happen overnight. – Interviewee #24
.....................
we’ve had meetings, hopefully there’s been a promise of the Kaituna being returned within the next two
years and you know, it’d be a wonderful sight for the people to see the river flowing back like it
normally, except the fact that it’ll have to be (?) stages of (calm?), feed it so you don’t completely all at
one go. It’s got to be done at stages to see if the system will work again. – Interviewee #27
.....................
can we afford not to be a part of planning processes. I mean and in my opinion with what we’ve been
through now, the answer is, ‘No, we can’t.’ The real issue is that we need to be finding the resources,
both human and capital-type resources to actually do it – Interviewee #14b
.....................
Interviewee #5b – We have our charitable trust, that’s right, but anyway there’s, what we were able to
do was, I think, show that we had numbers and that, as a result, meant that Ngā (Hiwi te Moana?) the
chairperson then and the chairperson now arranged a meeting and we sat in Quality Inn in Napier and
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we shared what we had in common and then over a pretty condensed period of time, 12 months, all
the, the asset holding company, Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated, Hapū Collective drew together what’s
now called the Ngāti Kahungunu- what’s it called?
Interviewee #29b – Kahungunu Collective
Interviewee #5b – Yeah, strategic plan and we <strong>mana</strong>ged to get an MFish official at the time to get our
pūtea rolling so, and [Interviewee #20b] was that official-
.....................
Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> does a lot of reseeding work on various projects ... successful reseeding programmes –
Interviewee #20b
.....................
I think it’s about ensuring social outcomes as well. In other words, you know, it’s not just profit for
profit’s sake – Interviewee #14b
.....................
Interviewee #18b - We had that dual focus, but restorational, environmental sustainability always came
first and then you made your living after-
Interviewee #14b – After, yeah
Interviewee #29b – And feels like the fisheries industry and the consequential Acts and all that have
other focus, as we know. It’s always been about making a dollar, and then now, oh gosh, we better start
looking at some sustainability stuff, but like Tuahine was saying, you know, if you choose to go with that
and do that then or choose not to, then that’s fine, you know, you’re not going to get change unless you
do something
.....................
Interviewee #25b – No other agency had any authority. These are customary harvesting authorisations
and only we were able to authorise it, so it’s irrelevant what Ministry of Fisheries wanted to do. So they
were the only ones able to gain access to the fishery. So some of the other voluntary rāhui that have
been imposed in some of the bays, so Mount Maunganui’s one and one out in (Rapiti?) at the moment
around the wreck, those are doing pretty well, but that’s a community engagement. Fisheries have a set
of legislation backups to them which takes so long to get things done. You’re better off just getting the
community to buy it and hey, ‘What can we agree on? What can we do?’ And then by volunteering and
interest. They become very effective in administrating rehabilitation really, regeneration of fish stock.
Interviewee #15b – Can I just add something there? When (Kahuamona?) this is Māori hua minority in
an urban area, well they, just what you said, they <strong>mana</strong>ged to capture voluntary input by, when they
post a rāhui they had a huge ceremony publicised it, did it with kaumatua went out at dawn. The whole
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community knew about it, Pākehā as well, so Ministry of Fish in (?) will tell you, Pākehā were the rāhui,
they were the ones that would bring Ministry of Fish, ‘Look there’s somebody down there out where the
rāhui is.’ So it was really effective when they brought the whole community on, like you said and still
had a Māori ceremony for it, did that properly, fed the people and got them onboard and so everybody
was monitoring it. It worked well.
.....................
It’s nice to have all that groundwork done and all the nice values but there is a practical reality that (we
know what?) funds, that’s looked on as a conversation so those people are responsible in my opinion for
leading that conversation and supplying the frameworks so that hapū in their own economy and the
hapū and the community around them are design a solution, and implement a solution which fits their
context and their capacity. It may be designed around a certain species ... their main kai on the table ...
the signature things, East Coast crayfish, it’s all you hear about, crayfish, crayfish, crayfish, crayfish, ...
So each one’s got their own signature and you want to build on it and let that wealth and experience
create a common intellectual capacity, capital amongst everybody and an assurance, a human agency
part of assurance as well, too. So that people can see that they can work together. They can get the
benefits. It’s just a matter of prioritising after, which projects and which relationship that will deliver,
either quickly or in a manner that offsets the critical nature of the detrimental effects that are coming
downstream – Interviewee #25b
.....................
So all the community members, I just talking as a community member, I suppose, I’d like to sort of know
what, though I do, but I’m just saying, what a taiāpure is, what the effects are, maybe educational
programmes around those things so you get a bit of engagement and the preservation of kai<strong>moana</strong>
including in those educational programmes the communication, a way to communicate, you know, let’s
leave out all this terminology that people don’t understand. Let’s just be very basic about the way we
talk to people. I think a lot of the confusion around, I mean, that strategy that you guys used,
[Interviewee #25b] is absolutely awesome, but I’m just talking about now talking to engaging <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua. Communications is very important and the way you talk, very basic, I know people like
kinaesthetic people, more visual, more visual, like to see the pictures. ... draw a picture about that
situation, this is what’s going to happen. So what we do between that and there, visual communication
with our <strong>tangata</strong> whenua because really, you know, at the end of the day, Māori call a hui or whoever
calls a hui, nobody goes because oh, ‘What are they going to talk about,’ you know. ‘They want us to
contribute to like an LTCCP Plan. Are they going to listen? What are they going to say? Are they going
to talk about ticking the box,’ so I think it’s about user-friendly communication tools that gets people to
engage at the local level, at the community level – Interviewee #29b
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Relationship Building: (networks)
How important are relationships? What can be gained from them?
Summary of key points:
Quotes:
Looking at other iwi’s experiences/protocols/tools at hand
Good relationships with MinFish will benefit the iwi
One iwi formed a committee of kaitiaki to work towards a common goal; this enabled Min Fish,
regional councils, DoC, and NIWA to want to engage with them and keep them informed
Good relationships should be formed between customary, commercial, and recreational fishers
Agencies should provide research needs and scientific knowledge to the iwi; iwi should have
final say
Maintain good relationships between iwi/hapū/individuals/elders in
community/whanau/business partners/local & regional councils/NIWA
The Treaty Settlement process has resulted in a respectful relationship between some iwi and
Crown; relationships differ based on the hua they come from
Relationships of trust and honesty are ideal; win hearts through love, not conflict; these
relationships are made with individuals, not agencies. When the agencies change their people,
the relationships change also.
Agencies should keep people informed on how things they do will impact them
Yeah, they provided benchmarks to look at and we used those for their protocols as baselines in seeing
how we could enhance it, what they had. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - But OTS would have helped cover some of your costs and things as well.
Interviewee # 1– Yeah, OTS within our terms of negotiation, that’s available online as well and you’ll see
in there that there are certain milestones that we needed to meet and we were paid out according to
those milestones.
.....................
if you had a relationship with the Ministry of Fisheries you could say that things would work in your
favour and you wouldn't get anything less than what [iwi-X] had got. – Interviewee #1
.....................
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we had support from our people, our older people which basically that's all at that time that we really
considered needing– Interviewee #4
.....................
the Asset Holding Company and Ngāti Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated and Te Kupenga and the Hapū
Collective met at the Blue Water Hotel ... So at that point in time, three of the four parties, all except for
Te Kupenga, decided to join forces and create a plan and I think it was at that time the name Kahungunu
Ki Uta Ki Tai was mooted ...at that meeting the Te Kupenga people said that they would take part as long
as they had an equal status to the Coastal Hapū Collective and there’s, as Coastal Hapū Collective we all
broke into a different caucus groups. We went back to the table and suggested that the Te Kupenga as
it sits under its hapū and that they way that the Te Kupenga, Te Kupenga’s way through to the table was
through their hapū door– Interviewee #5
.....................
some of them are our whanau. Me and others were inviting our whanaunga even though they were
Ministry employees along to listen in our Ki Uta Ki Tau hui so that they could be up-schooled at a hapū
level as hapū members and it was up to them how they worked that information in their professional
roles. So initially they were sitting around the table as hapū members, the MFish employees who
happened to be whanaunga. So I hope that that sort of relationship still stands, is open and
transparent, – Interviewee #5
.....................
we’re related right throughout it so even though our main hapū, as stated in documentation or pepeha,
then we’ve got whanaunga right throughout Kahungunu whanui and that binds us together. So we want
to respect each other’s relationship because they are our whanaunga and I think we want a fair deal for
each other. ... in all fairness Kahungunu Iwi Inc. and the Asset Holding Company have been more and
more receptive to suggestions that have come out through the Ki Uta Ki Tai second hīkoi. – Interviewee
#5
.....................
we went from being coastal to now incorporating everybody. So if a non-coastal hapū is interested in
joining the Hapū Collective then our doors are open-– Interviewee #5
.....................
even since it was completed there’s a whole lot less talking past each other. There seems to be active
listening going on in all parties, not just one party and I, here Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> is a bit divided at times–
Interviewee #5
.....................
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<strong>mana</strong>ging those relationships as a result of the process of the mātaitai. The process can be quite, ...
divisive– Interviewee #7
.....................
We finally met 2006, had an AGM and agreed at the AGM that we would form a committee of all those
<strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki that were gazetted. At that meeting in 2006, I was nominated as chairperson of the
committee when we agreed that we would meet monthly so that we could come to form our
relationship and see how we would progress the committee. – Interviewee #8
.....................
we had an agreement, an unwritten agreement amongst us that we would be a committee and it was an
unwritten agreement because we needed to understand how we would work together. – Interviewee #8
.....................
the good thing about that process was it brought us all together because we've not been known to be
together, especially all those maraes that are around that area. We probably have, but I've not seen it
up over the years. This was that opportunity for us to be all working together as one under one
umbrella... started building relationships, ... bringing back into the group ideas and discussions that
those who belong to the different marae would meet monthly, they would then come back to the group
with feedback and so, if there was anything good that came out of all was the relationships that we built
amongst one another to work to a common agreement and that's what I found was good about the
process. – Interviewee #8
.....................
So what I learned as we proceeded down this track of wanting to rebuild was that there were groups
who wanted to have relationships with us and Ministry of Fisheries was with us right from the beginning
anyway and that was both the (?potaka waina?) but I also found that Environment Waitato(?) were
making contact and wanting to have some discussion on how they could support. Department of
Conservation were wanting to engage. I've also got contacted by NIWA who were wanting to engage as
well. Those are probably the three groups that I found were knocking on my door and wanting to have
some discussions about how we might want to work together. ... what came out of those was that they
informed us of any activity that they were going to be doing on the harbour. So they kept us informed
as to what they were doing. When, for example, they were spraying, there's a grass in the harbour, they
were spraying because they wanted to eradicate and they would let us know so that we could let
whanau know if they were wanting to go and get shellfish not to do that even though it was publicly,
even though there were big public notices, they let us know, that sort of stuff. I think that's really all.
They were just wanting to build relationships and seeing how we would all work together, especially
Māori sectors of those departments. – Interviewee #8
.....................
it was all around relationship building and seeing how we all fitted together, see how we all work
together. – Interviewee #8
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there needs to be some form of communication between the three sectors which is customary,
commercial, recreational. ...should be good relationships from senior down to those who work on the
ground. – Interviewee #8
.....................
there needs to be agency involvement through an understanding of how all parties should work
together ... it's important that everyone understands who has the final say at the end of the day to the
area that you're going to be looking after and <strong>mana</strong>ging so that there can be a working relationship
between all parties ... – Interviewee #8
.....................
I believe that we need to have a relationship where there is an understanding that we have the last say
at the end of the day. We need to be understood that it's our direction as to how we believe it should
be looked after with some advice from those who can provide it and how we're going to be looking after
that area and providing in restoring it and maintaining it and the other agencies to have a role to play
because we don't have the research skills. We don't have the survey skills. We don't have some times,
knowledge on how to write reports and documents when we're wanting to make things happen so we
need to have relationships with those agencies who can support us with that, but it's how that
relationship is understood and agreed to is important. – Interviewee #8
.....................
to me, the relationships between the agencies are really important. If we decide that we want to put a
bylaw in on and say, pipis for a purpose to see how they, how we might be able to build them back up
again then we need the relationships with those other agencies who will help us reinforce those,
because we can't do it on our own. – Interviewee #8
.....................
We loved our partners, ... I got to the stage where I could ring them up and just say, ‘[X], I need 5 Grand
in the bank,’ and he’d put it in. ... You know, it was just, develop a strong relationship with these guys. –
Interviewee #10
.....................
We knew what was contained in our protocols, in our fish protocols. We didn't necessarily understand it
in depth so that took a certain amount of maturing of the relationship between us and our MFish people
on the ground. We were in constant consultation with them. – Interviewee #11
.....................
they actually brought 4 councils together because our areas ([X] and [X]) are impacted on by 4 councils,
Environment Bay of Plenty, Tauranga City Council, Western Bay and Rotorua. They all impact on [X] via
the [X] River so we had them all on board cooperating as well and the planner’s finished and the plan
they've launched now but there's money in the 10 year budget, Environment Bay of Plenty to do their
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part, which is the major part. The other councils, ... they haven't put their hands in their pockets yet and
the biggest is Rotorua with their paru coming down the Kaituna River. – Interviewee #15
.....................
Not only did we have the biggest mātaitai out of everybody, but the way we’re doing it and plus with
NIWA’s help, the different things we needed to go through, the old history, the ones, the older ones
were, the pictures of the whole coastline and all the rest of it. – Interviewee #16
....................
the example at our time was Rapaki. ... they said, ‘Take what you want.’ – Interviewee #16
.....................
I see that without ... great relationships, ... we’re only just coming to a place of relating in a good way
and that’s been through the Treaty settlement process. ... when you lock horns enough with somebody
you sort of start developing a healthy respect for each other. Well I think the council have come to that
point of respecting [X] because of our Environment Court was the penultimate of our clashes and I think
although there is a statement (the REC?) one, I believe we won because they didn’t get anywhere near
what they wanted, but we got recognition of all three points of the Section 6e, 7a, Section 8, first iwi to
ever be accorded all three of those sections in the RMA. – Interviewee #18
.....................
now we have this healthy respect relationship between us and the Council and which is now improving
because of the (OTS?) push ... you see that, the big difference in relationships in regionals and districts
and I reckon that’s because of the hua they come from, the place that they come from. Well that’s how
I see it. It’s a fundamental engrained thing. – Interviewee #18
.....................
I think once we share with people we’ve got to really hold fast to those values of <strong>mana</strong>akitanga,
whanaungatanga, and aroha and when we operate in those values, you when hearts, you win hearts and
it’s about winning hearts. It’s about reaching out in love, not in conflict, reaching out to create a
relationship of trust and honesty, you know, once you’ve got a relationship with someone it’s really hard
to say no and it’s really hard to not respect each other when you like each other and you want to honour
each other because you like each other. So it’s about creating the relationship first. Once you get the
relationship right, then it becomes quite reciprocal and respectful and so I guess that’s the danger of
working with Crown agencies that change people all the time because you develop the relationship with
the person, not with the organisation ... you’ve created all these good relationships around the motu, so
(Te Whati?) would have been poorer for it by your leaving because that next person who comes along
has to now redevelop a relationship-– Interviewee #18
.....................
We were really aware of that when we were negotiating the accords and you know, we negotiated five
all at one time. So you can imagine, respectively all the agencies would turn up and they were really
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upfront about that from the start and just saying, ‘Look, we want to do our best, but we’re all
hamstrung,’ and that’s fine to a point, but it’s within the context of resolution of historical issues and
there has to be some commitment to change in the future and so we took quite a strategic approach to
our accords. We didn’t want to lock people into a whole lot of meetings. We didn’t want to lock people
into a whole lot of, sort of, you’ll do such-and-such at a certain day of the year and it was more about
trying to establish a relationship and understand each other a bit better. – Interviewee #24
.....................
What struck me, [X], to be honest, was that very few agencies were really on the board with how they’re
going to deal with Māori. Their willingness was also varied. Their capacity to know how and what that
meant was extremely varied. Some were very prepared. They knew exactly what the responsibilities
were. They were really welcoming of the accord. They could see where it was going to have really good
effect. Others were like, ‘Oh we’re just not sure how we’re going to do this. We don’t know. We’re not
doing a very good job of implementing our Treaty principles. We’re nervous. We don’t know who you
are,’ and that came out and so what really, what became really important was them developing a
relationship with us and understanding us as iwi before we went too far. There’s a lot of nervousness. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
I’ve not wanted to write one that’s just a desktop exercise and then it just sits on the shelf at all of those
local authorities and I knew if we did one I wanted to do a really good one and spend the time because
it’s the kōrero, it’s the whakaaro, the kōrero which raised through the process that actually is important
... the Anglican church is a two-house model, so there will be all the stuff with our people but we’re also
going to work it through with our partners and stakeholders at the same time and get the crossovers so
we get the linkages. ... I’ve seen so many, and people put their hearts and souls into them and then they
just, either not written in a way that planners can use them. There isn’t the relationship behind the
documents so people are afraid to ask, all sorts of reasons. – Interviewee #24
.....................
We don’t get access or whatever and so that was one of those key things ... about that relationship with
awa is nurturing all aspects of that relationship. – Interviewee #24
.....................
all of the iwi agreed to a collective framework on the principles that we all know, a holistic approach to
the environment works best and we wanted to see the river <strong>mana</strong>ged as a whole living being, ... and to
restore mauri and to restore and protect the river we had to work together collectively ... some of the
challenges what will be the relationship between the River Authority and the Regional Council because
you’ve introduced a whole new authority into an established RMA and LGA process so that’s going to be
a really interesting kind of testing point for a while. What’s the relationship between the Waikato River
Authority and the respective iwi authorities in terms of making decisions within a particular rohe? ... it
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could be as simple as if the River Authority are called on to appoint a commissioner in relation to a
consent within the [X] rohe we would firmly expect them to contact us and say, ‘Who would you
recommend in that instance?’ But the right that we absolutely retain in agreeing to the wider co<strong>mana</strong>gement
framework was that we are <strong>mana</strong> whenua in our rohe and we maintain <strong>mana</strong> whenua and
we won’t move from that point and understandably all the other iwi at the same point, but so that’s
going to be really interesting to see a new collective organisation for the whole of the river which
everyone’s really passionate about, so that interface. It will be the changing of the culture as we’ve
talked about during the interview, you know, and the changing of those things takes some time–
Interviewee #24
.....................
3] The continued health of our people is supported by several planks;
i) whanaungatanga whakapapa i.e. our beneficial relationships to each other which are fundamental and
essential to our identity- this is based on hapū relationships from our ancestor [X] through his sons [X]
and [X] to us the descendants. – Interviewee #25
.....................
Even though the marae in Otara was also being opened that weekend Tainui drove right past to
maintain the relationship with Te Rawhiti. We recognize that Tainui have played a leading role in the
Treaty Settlement process that spawned the Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regulations and the subsequent rohe <strong>moana</strong>
notifications. – Interviewee #25
.....................
One of the underlying principles of the rohe <strong>moana</strong> establishment process has always been that
eventually the Takiwaa notifications would become fused into a single <strong>mana</strong>gement regime as espoused
by the tatou, tatou phrase. This is an overarching strategy formulated and consistent with the [iwi-X]
structure. This outcome would then maintain the inter hapū relationships. Other outcomes would be
the successful use of the Regulations to maintain our hapū identity and extend the Kaitiakitanga within
the Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regs into the Māori paradigm of integrated <strong>mana</strong>gement across freshwater and marine
environments. – Interviewee #25
.....................
Interviewer #1 – Do you feel that the agencies, particularly MFish are good at listening to the committee,
in terms of the committee aspirations and objectives?
Interviewee #26 – Yeah, yeah, we have a good relationship with you know, the compliance people, all of
the Ministry of Fisheries, there’s always different paces at times that turn up, but no, we’ve had a,
Mokohiti Brown did a huge job, really, in the role that he played, not only for Maketu taiāpure, but for
the whole of the coastal area. I mean he broke down a lot of barriers.
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We’ve always been a part of the Coastal Hapū Collective. The Coastal Hapū Collective have always come
from the hapū perspective. We’re still there. We’ve been with them for the last, probably, maybe six
years, since they started – Interviewee #29
.....................
Interviewee #29 - the Coastal Hapū Collective got a bit of pūtea from Te Puni Kōkiri, so that’s their own,
because they’ve got their own legal structure as well. They’ve got their own incorporated society, not
sure they’re a charitable trust yet, but they’ve got their own legal entity and the reason so they can get
some pūtea for themselves. They don’t get much. They only got $2,500 I think from somewhere
Interviewer #1 – Which really only runs one, two, three hui really.
Interviewee #29 – It’s that they’re able, they always make sure that Rakaipaaka is in there to travel, like
they gave us money to get to Porangahau because they wanted us there because we were one of the
originals that set it up so they’re going to give [Interviewee #30] and I travel money to go. [X] and [X] are
always saying, ‘We’ve got to have you there.’
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So have you got a support network?
Interviewee #29 – Just our people
Interviewee #30 – The people, the local people will come around and supporting. They’re quiet, but
yeah
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Leadership
What qualities make a good leader?
Summary of key points:
Formal education
Initiative to form projects; take action; write <strong>mana</strong>gement plans; lead the way for other groups;
organise workshops; submit publications; speak out in order to get noticed
Ability to wear many hats
Traditional knowledge (locations of important areas)
Quotes:
I noticed was that our people were wanting the <strong>mana</strong>gement of their fisheries. They were wanting the
<strong>mana</strong>gement of the conservationist states, all of those resources, yet, there was nobody on the ground
to deal with how they are going to be <strong>mana</strong>ged at that level. So I ended up becoming a second-timearound
student and done the Bachelor of Iwi Environmental <strong>Mana</strong>gement degree by Te Wānanga o
Aotearoa. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Basically, we wanted to <strong>mana</strong>ge our area, set up our <strong>mana</strong>gement plan that dealt with that area,
basically for us to regulate our area, implement our own fisheries staff. ... out of our discussions, we
decided to set up a committee that basically took the application completed, after this, set up
committee to take it to a draft form for our <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. Then once that's all formed and signed
off, then we would elect a committee to carry on those regulations. So basically it was the (?) we set up
a few to take it to, initially take it to the stages where a committee would take the whole project on ... I
think if we had a <strong>mana</strong>gement plan it probably would've helped us with our structure and place quicker
and the ministry and that– Interviewee #2
.....................
Well it will make it easier for other groups coming on board because we are paving the way basically.
It's costing us a fair bit of time, effort and I suppose, money, that other groups hopefully will give us
credit for, really, because we've broken the ice or we are breaking the ice. And the councils know that,
they know that we were the first group, that they need to get it right for other groups that are coming
on. – Interviewee #3
.....................
we were basically sick and tired of people just talking ... Since we were young, we've got the legs, we
have got the motivation and have some other technical skills that our older people don't have are just
not as fast as we are, we could help them out and because their dreams are our dreams too in the thing
was, was that they wanted to see something before they passed away– Interviewee #4
.....................
traditionally people used to transplant, my grand uncle, [X], ... when he used to go on his travels he used
to take up kai from here so he could go up there and distribute it too to family up there. Anyway, he
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was one of the ones that I know of for sure, and that's written down in our family records, that he used
to bring back different seafoods from other areas and transplant them. – Interviewee #4
.....................
I was already involved in some environmental fisheries stuff anyway and said to them, ‘Do you mind if I
represent you on this Coastal Hapū Collective?’ and I explained what we were up to and gave them
reports and then I had their full support right from the beginning. ... I’m also [iwi-X] and I’ve worked on
the Taiāpure Committee there for six years ... representation around the Kahungunu Tai table, there was
the Asset Holding Company, NKII and the Collective, so there were initially two reps per group, per
organisation and then some technical advisors so there was [X] from Victoria is a technical advisor to the
whole, myself, I’m a technical advisor to the Hapū Collective. Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> came along as a
technical advisor to the whole and just because this hasn’t happened elsewhere– Interviewee #5
.....................
What [X] has been inspired to do developed from that particular event. She now has a paper out that’s
being consulted with the groups and that because she wants to get into monthly workshops on
perspective of water, on land, environment and those types of things and she wants to invite our
community to attend those seminars, you know. – Interviewee #13
.....................
our kids are out there doing it and then we’ve got another set of our iwi that have all got the esotericals
going down, the challenge is to bring them together, like our (leaders is taki?) ...we got our old fellows
and we take them for drives, they’ll start talking about these places. I think, ‘Dang, got to get you and
you together,’ you know, they know where they are but they don’t know what they’ve got. These ones
know what they’re about. We’ve got to bring them together somehow and preserve, you know, so
we’ve got a project going on, we’re seeking funding to do that, get our old people up on the back of a
ATV or a four-wheel-drive or whatever, because once you ask them in the whare and go, ‘I don’t know
anything,’ and then you get them out there and oh, they’re awake, you know, so that’s what we’ve got
to bring together because these kids are going to be the kaitiaki and they know where they are.
Although my (mahi?) I couldn’t know where it is on a map (?)– Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #18- It can only get better, I think. It’s the grassroots movements, you know, taking control
of our own communities and not waiting for the government to fix us up because they’re not going to
Interviewer #1 – So it’s leadership?
Interviewee#18 – Yeah... we’ve got to lead by example, ...we need to be the ones to lead that change
because you only lead by example and that doesn’t go down well at all, but that’s just how it is. It’s just
how it is.
.....................
For my part I’ve made sure that my family have a, know their responsibilities, so I’ve made, steered, I
haven’t made, steered [Interviewee #31] to Marine Studies along the way and my eldest daughter is in
Communications and my son is a teacher, so my brother’s a fisherman, his son’s a fisherman. So our
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family thing has been to adapt to the modern world, but recognise our responsibility to our, as a
whanau with that knowledge to our community. So I don’t know if that answers, but that’s how I feel
and so that’s why I say, well I’m, part of our responsibility it’s come down to us. It’s why I’m on the
Maketu Board of Trustees to make sure that there’s a kaitiaki module so that all those kids can learn
about their inheritance and to be aware of <strong>mana</strong>ging it and looking after it and I think, and adapting to
the modern world we also are very active in submitting on government things, you have coastal policy,
iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement, all those sort of things. I think that’s part of what we have to do too, but at the
whanau level, I do assert myself in a community meeting on these sorts of issues and I’m not scared to
do that. Sometimes I’ll shut up on things that I’m not an expert in. We’re not experts in everything, but
you know, if I think I can add I will assert myself. If I think someone’s going the wrong direction, I’ll
assert myself, yes – Interviewee #15b
.....................
Yes, I think when you talk to large populations then there is a leadership role there from our publicly
elected leaders, they must take the lead on that. They are the ones ultimately who manifest the
framework in which we exist. I could talk about the policy people writing good papers and being
evidence of research-based ... but we know. When Price Waterhouse Cooper says we want to increase
the income, they’re very (welcome?) and it’s about the tax, it’s got nothing to do with [laughter] We
have 24 objectives and one of them is protection for the environment so that’s the advancement of
previous, and we’ll talk about the 2020 strategy for fisheries in particular – Interviewee #25b
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Monitoring; Issuing Permits
When and how are permits issued? When are they declined? How is catch and stock monitored?
Summary of key points:
Restocking projects can help iwi monitor rates of growth
Iwi should be able to police mahinga kai areas
If iwi could prove that stocks were down, they could ask commercial to cut back on quota
Some people abuse customary permits, but iwi reps should handle punishment
Elders have been known to be hassled by Fisheries officers for collecting kai
Quotes:
we used to sit there and see these bloody people that I knew could dive, that I knew could dive with
scuba gear and yet they're going out on the rocks. (?) ‘What can I do about this?’ So I used to go down
there and I said, ‘What do you think that you should, you can dive, can't you?’ And they were like,
‘Yeah, you know we can dive.’ I says, ‘Well why don't you go and put your scuba gear on and go and
dive because these rocks here, our old people could be gathering the kai. They don't need much. You
are taking a sack full of something that old people can eat over two months, you know, I used to say to
them in a nice way, so that they would listen because if you went down there and approach them in an
ugly way, they'll just get ugly back at you and they used to understand but it's not until you tell them
and those people have never been back there and now they are dropping food off of the old people,
which is good. – Interviewee #4
.....................
Are we allowed to eat them?’ ‘No, we are going to make these ones spawn too and monitor them.’ ...
we’d go down there and we’d just talk to them and just see if they know. ‘Can you see any pāuas in
there?’ and they were like, ‘No.’ ‘Well, those things there are paua, but you can't touch them because
we're doing a project on them.’ – Interviewee #4
.....................
The Air Force, you know, that's the partnership, but there isn't one. So when we took our thing out to
200 nautical miles because we believed there was a partnership, they say to us, ‘Well how do you police
it?’ And we are saying, ‘The same way as you do.’ – Interviewee #6
.....................
You know when you can write authorisations. You know when you shouldn't be writing authorisations
out. You get to learn how to effectively <strong>mana</strong>ge your fish stocks. If you know these things, whereas if
you don't, you'll just think because of technology now that I can just go and catch whenever I want. No,
so you need to, we need to know, especially for going to be writing authorisations, we need to know. –
Interviewee #8
.....................
in terms of <strong>mana</strong>ging resources like the taiāpure and customary permits where some people abuse it,
but again, it’s up to those who are representatives of the iwi on their board to get to see their people
and tell them off if they do. – Interviewee #14
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‘Sooner or later, we will put it down and we will know how much each one takes. – Interviewee #16
.....................
I had a Nana that ate pāuas about this big and she’d just go down and just get her kit and then go down
and get them. Well one day there was this ornery fisheries person was there. And she still went to get
them and he tried to stop her and at that time she had four of her mokos there ... and they were going
to beat the shit out of this guy for stopping their grandmother. And she didn’t take any notice and in
the end I told them to let her go. ... Well she was getting a feed for her and her family and I said, well
they tried to get it and put it back and I wrote her a permit and gave it to her. ... well she was only
diving for her family. I said, ‘The difference between a fucking crook and a person that’s got to feed
themselves is pretty obvious. I said, ‘So you virtually got to have a look and why are you pulling these
people up?’ I said, ‘She can’t dive every (?) that she kept and she only got enough to feed her and her
kids,’ same with this other lady who went down and got about ten and they were all undersize. I said,
‘And you’re worrying about these people?’ – Interviewee #16
.....................
just a guy that walks around in the taiāpure area, in the taiāpure area, yeah, the taiāpure has been
legislated to look after and I used to go with the honorary fisheries guys and the permanent fisheries
guys and do a tour and got a bit of insight on what the fisheries people do as in interviewing,
interviewing people with quota and stuff, divers and fishers and all that sort of stuff so that was a good
insight. I did that for about a couple of years with the local fishery boys from the Ministry of Fish and
then I ended up being the permit issuer for the taiāpure for about three years and I’ve only just recently
given it up because too many people’s calling into my house – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 – I think it’s only one time I come across a family. This was over in (Papa?) out of our
area and I was just going along for the ride really, that we struck trouble with the tuatuas, the people
just had too many tuatuas and tried to run us over in their car, but then another time, another Māori
family was getting pipis and had heaps of pipis which they weren’t entitled to and we’re trying to tell
them, ‘No, you’re Te Arawa. You know the rules. You know you can just go and see one of the
kaumatuas here and get a permit. It’s not a problem if you’ve got a hui on,’ but the fisheries, they claim
the hui is a tangi, a tangi, a tangi, I think that was it. That was the bottom line and we’re trying to say a
hui is for 21sts, weddings, fairwells and everything like that and I’ve had many a run-in with the senior
officer in Tauranga over this.
Interviewer #1 – It’s a bit of a difference of opinion on what is actually fishing right
Interviewee #19 – Yeah, they actually told me I was issuing too many permits and I said, ‘Well you know,
go, you want to sort it out? We can go and sort it out, but you know, you’ve got to remember that three
or four bags of mussels for a tangi or for a 21st birthday with Māori, this is over a period of two or three
days.’ And they have the opinion that it’s just for one meal, you know, I said, ‘No, that’s over a period of
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two or three days,’ and you know, that’s what we, that’s how I interpret it to be.
.....................
So we’ve got that many divers telling us, ‘Oh they’re getting cleaned up,’ you know, and because we’re
not official fisheries officer, we can’t go there and stop people because we’re not getting paid for it for a
start and a lot of people were coming from out of outer areas, but we could pull them up if they’d never
had a local permit for the area that we were policing, the taiāpure area. We could pull them up and we
could ring their people that issued the permit, ‘You know, it would be nice if you rang us and said you’re
sending people over with a permit for a hui or tangi or whatever,’ – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 – He was the most helpful person. He was the most helpful person, other than the guys
sitting in the office. You know, he’d talk about stuff and he’d say, ‘Oh [Interviewee #19] these people
they’ve got some stuff here, but they had to come late and you wouldn’t issue them a permit.’ I said,
‘No, no, you know, dark time is out of time, but if they come and saw me in the morning, I’d issue them.’
He said, ‘Would you mind doing it you know,’ ‘Oh, okay, not a problem, but you know, after five o’clock,
that’s my time you know,’ but they were coming up here at half past five, ten o’clock at night, six o’clock
in the morning. I said, ‘(Manger?) off.’ You know, but then again, some of it, they, people are in a hurry
and they’ve got to catch the tides. That’s the thing. ... I’m a member of the Coast Guard here as well,
and our bars are so dangerous, we’re talking about that Kaituna, Maketu Bar and (Pokeina?). They’re so
dangerous at low tide that they’ve got to catch that tide and sometimes I’m a bit harsh on not issuing
that permit and thinking about that and all of a sudden I’m getting called out in the bloody middle of the
night and the Coast Guard go out and pick them up.
.....................
Field officer, that was what I was ... Field officer, a grass-picker – Interviewee #19
.....................
they just say, ‘Here comes Big [Interviewee #19], you know, just coming to check,’ but geez, I don’t think
I’ve ever caught a person knowingly that he was over the limit you know – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 – All those people fishing out in one day and we had no control of whatever, what are
they doing-
Interviewer #1 – Is that frustrating?
Interviewee #19 – Yeah
Interviewer #1 – Because you’re like here, you’re local 40 years is local and yet you’re not actually
empowered
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Interviewee #19 – It is frustrating. I’ve actually brought it up in the taiāpure meeting. I says, ‘I can’t say
nothing when I’m working on the survey thing because I’m working for a different organisation.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So how would you describe the health of the <strong>moana</strong> outside Maketu and the estuary?
Interviewee #19 – Pretty good, pretty good, but it still needs looking after. It still needs looking after
you know, we’ve got so many bloody pumps that are pumping all this water out of these drains for
farmlands and stuff and it’s all going into the Kaituna, into the estuary, we’ve just got to, we’ve got to
monitor that water more often than what it’s been monitored by government agencies, you know, we
should be doing it ourselves. If we had the facilities we should be doing it ourselves.
Interviewer #1 – So what does greater monitoring mean? More clipboards?
Interviewee #19 – No, I think you’ve got to be active, you’ve got to be active and actually take samples,
take samples and do the measuring, do the own work, you know, get your shit in order before you write
anything down.
.....................
Interviewee #19 – We had Asians coming down here from Auckland and I’m quite thankful for the guy
that runs the camp. He says, ‘[Interviewee #19], you better get down here, there’s a couple of vanloads
and they were scraping the little seedlings off the rocks with paint-scrapers and I asked one of them that
could speak English ... I said, ‘What do you use those for?’ They said they pound them up for food
flavouring. I says, ‘You won’t be pounding anymore.’ Took them all back and away you go, you know,
and really I actually couldn’t do that lawfully, but you know, they took the hint and buggered off. As
long as I got me two pips on my shirt and stuff and you look important. That frightens them. They never
ask you for ID although I do carry ID from the taiāpure. I always carry my ID from the taiāpure around
but on that is that Fish Care Officer Ministry of Fish, but I’m no longer Fish Care Officer. It’s just bluff
and a lot of the people, I’ve never been called on my bluff yet. I’ve just been so lucky that, well no, if I
have trouble I’ll just yell out to another guy on another boat to come over and give me a hand. Or
they’ll, if I’m inspecting a boat or just having a look, they’ll pull up in the carpark and make sure it’s
alright, you know, that sort of thing. You don’t have to carry bloody battle dress and all this bloody shit
[laughs]
Interviewer #1 – No, so are things changing for the better or for the worse, do you think, [X]?
Interviewee #19 – So I think things are not changing for the better or not changing for the worse, either.
They’ve just got to keep an eye on things. You’ve just got to keep an eye on things.
Interviewer #1 – So that means you’ve got to be active? You’ve got to be in the space in order to be-
Interviewee #19 – Yeah you’ve got to keep your eye on it, yeah, keep your eye on it. You’ve got to keep
your eye on the ball because once it gets out of hand, it’s a long time replenishment,
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A lot of our older ones we’ve interviewed talk about checking people’s catch bags and what have they
got and informing that there’s rāhui or other interventions in play. So I, to me, that’s the ultimate
because there’s nothing like the locals looking out for the local area. In fact, it’s better than, because by
the time you’re ringing up the police or the fisheries officer, you know, the incident’s come and gone,
whereas if people knew that there was an active community, series of community beach-walkers –
Interviewee #20
.....................
we hope to become the issuers of permits. We’ll have kaitiaki on the river and we’ll be issuing our own
permits and etc, etc for customary fishing activities on the river... – Interviewee #24
.....................
we’ll try and go back to the Ministry and say, ‘Maybe for these areas that the paua don’t grow to the
real big sizes, maybe there should be another limit size.’ I think the biggest problem is like everything
else around New Zealand, the poachers or these people who just don’t listen to the rules. I mean we’ve
got all the Ministry signs up saying what the sizes are, what the catch is and people still don’t listen and
that’s where I sympathise with the, you know, with the compliance people. They just don’t, Ministry
just doesn’t have enough people on the ground. I think they do a good, the Ministry does a good job in
the coastal watch you know, because you see it on TV and I think they’re doing a marvellous job, but I
think there needs to be more budget for, to have more compliance people because I think, I’m not too
sure what the numbers are from within our area. I think they might be only about four or five at the
most, (cover?) from tens right down to the coast – Interviewee #26
.....................
And unfortunate for some, some of those people, they’re getting on in age now and they’re not, I mean
they still love to go out there and tell these people off, but they’re frightened they might get done in. –
Interviewee #26
.....................
we do have rules and regulations like, here’s one for an example, gathering kai<strong>moana</strong>. You know, we
have those for any diver that goes out that (may get?) abide by that, otherwise they can’t prosecute or
challenge them, but we’ll remember them and say, ‘You won’t get another permit.’ – Interviewee #27
.....................
my grandfather was one of the kaitiaki at home. I used to watch the people come home and ask if they
could go around the rocks asking where to go and he used to check their kete on the way back and
usually they used to drop a few off to him as well. I’m lucky if anybody gives me the finger as they go
past [laughs] So I don’t command the same sort of respect that my grandfather had in looking after our
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kai<strong>moana</strong>. Things have changed – Interviewee #10b
.....................
One of the common things that I was hearing when I was interviewing <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki up North and on
the East Coast of the Coromandel was the idea of having customary rangers and I think do in America,
don’t they? Where they’ve got rangers on reserves and that’s, so it would be interesting to see what
you know, and have a look at how those models are actually working overseas. Yeah a lot of the
different iwi groups were saying, a customary ranger would help because, one of the problems we get
locally is that the fisheries officers tend to target the local boats or the (Pohara?) boats that are not very
flash and that so they, a lot of the locals felt they were being targeted so that was almost a solution
there. Also the customary rangers might help supervise because one of the things, another common
theme was that outsiders would come in and dive on a customary traditional fishing grounds like beds
that were reserved for tangi and marae and there’s no way in our legislation of policing or preventing
that from happening. So that was perhaps a solution for that as well. In fact, the customary rangers
seem to be a solution for quite a few things, another one was fish dumping – Interviewee #10b
.....................
my grandfather, the people used to just come and open their bags up and show him but I was too
young. I didn’t really get the kōrero behind that. Grandpa didn’t really used to talk about himself much
or say anything, I just used to see that happening – Interviewee #10b
.....................
Interviewer #2 – So is there a bigger message here, [Interviewee #10b], that surveillance needs to
change in a utopia, it’s not adequate at the moment and you would like more surveillance?
Interviewee #10b – Yeah, well, some of the groups felt that. They say, ‘Look you know, when we get it,
there’s no officers here. We hardly ever get officers and when they do come in all they do is raid us, the
locals. So and when we ring them up they never turn up. It’s their day off or it’s too wet, too cold.’ So
there’s, yeah it does vary from place to place, but they’re saying that, ‘We would prefer our own people
get these resources and have jobs and be able to work from home. We’re already here. It’s expensive
coming all the way from town to come down and police us here in the middle of nowhere. Why can’t
we have a local ranger-type person?’
.....................
Interviewee #14b - We’re still caught up in the current justice system as well, but it was a really
appropriate way that whatever transgression it was if the other tribe could go to, whether it was an
individual or (?) that individual transgressed, but it was the whole tribe that was actually to pay for it-
Interviewee #18b – Pay the price, yeah
Interviewee #14b – And so that became quite a ... transgression, basically lost your tribe’s kawa the
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lock, stock and barrel for that could be that’s food ... that’s everything and that put you out of, that
made you think about the right thing I suppose ... think of just yourself as an individual.
Interviewer #3 – Before, kaitiaki using muru as a technique?
Interviewee #14b – Oh it’s lost, it’s not there now. So a lot of the concepts of tapu and noa, it’s
something we should be investigating ... I believe it sits alongside those other two concepts because it’s
something that (New Zealand is considering as part of our regulation?)
Interviewee #29b – Something that might be due for revisiting and you know, our tikanga evolves, that’s
how we evolve
Interviewee #5b – Could the Environment Court be seen as muru? [laughs][everyone laughs] I suppose
the ultimate outcome is to have self-regulation and if that’s (ngatu whakamai patu?) well you know,
then your whanau will regulate you, ‘Hey, we’re all going to pay the price for your stupidness. Toe the
line.’ You know, that sort of thing? Rather than here’s a fine, go away and they just keep doing it.
Interviewee #18b – Yeah that’s right.
Interviewee #14b – ... and then it becomes more of a badge of honour ...
Interviewee #5b – I have seen it, I have seen it. ...
Interviewee #14b – And it’s a badge of honour ... whereas before it was ... if you poach the reserve
because it’s the rest of the tribe that cops it.
.....................
There’s a case up North where one of our HFOs, really good fellow just took his uniform off and went
down to the beachfront and talked like a local. ... I think he might have taken down some sports gear or
a baseball or something like that. It was highly affective. Completely outside the existing regime, but it
was what they felt was in their (<strong>mana</strong>?) that they had the right to do was to assert their authority over
resources in there and depletion affected them more than anybody else. So people who came in and
these were crooks, were whakapapa to the area, that’s how they knew where to go and find them
because they could do this but they weren’t integrated within the kainga and the marae and hapū
system. They were acting outside of that system, whether they’re Māori or not, doesn’t matter,
therefore they’re outlaws to some extent. And these fellows just went down the beach and just told
them, you know, ‘Our place, we know who you are. Who know who your relations, but when you come
in here you act like the rest of us.’ - Interviewee #25b
.....................
in the Far North we took 18 months of engagement with everybody on the beach. Once we had that the
information come to us because the good fishermen, they tell you who the crooks are and when you get
that confirmed by four or five sources, then you confirm the motus operandi of the crooks, then you
plan operations to target them. So it was sort of like a transition phase. If, however, the crooks are the
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locals and they’re not the Asians that are coming in that people talked about, then you have to actually
target the people who are doing the harvesting themselves, so it varies from place to place and fishery
to fishery – Interviewee #25b
.....................
Interviewee #10b – Do you think it would be a good idea, a permitting system for the recreational
sector?
Interviewee #25b – Yeah I do think it would be a good system, but it’s completely impractical. I can tell
you Māori in the North are not going to take any form of permitting and in any form in anyone, not by
us, probably only by their local kaumatua and nobody else could impose a permitting system on them.
So I believe that you need to have the data, you know, if there is a big sector of, and you could do some
simple estimates around snapper extraction, which I think is around 1,500 tonne TAC for snapper and if
we said that there’s say 100,000 you know, are recreational fishers and they took a kilo each, you know,
but there’s not 100 tonne. Now that’s just on a yearly basis, you know, most of us probably take about
ten kilos each, well there’s 1,000 tonne and the TAC is 1,500 tonne.
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Kaitiaki Formal Training, Tools
What education and training do kaitiaki go through?
Summary of key points:
University degrees around resource <strong>mana</strong>gement
SITO training around available customary tools; [X] teaching about roles and responsibilities; [X]
& [X] teach maumahara education – kaitiaki training for MFish
Education is the key to succession planning
Cultural environmental monitoring toolkits are needed to identify problems and can be useful in
the Environment Court
Quotes:
Yeah and it was myself and 15 others that completed the degree in 2006. About a quarter of those
students now have a relationship or are working for the iwi authorities. So that degree provided me
with the tools to be able to make a contribution and to input and participate at a national and
international level if needed. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Our programme was the first two years was run out of Kaitaia and we were having our monthly noho up
here and our degree year was held down and Whangarei. We were having our monthly noho down
there, but during those three years of study, we were given different papers to write etc. etc. and I
based all of mine around resource <strong>mana</strong>gement on developing practical ways on how our people can
feed into the process so that they can be heard, but in doing that, but I found out and have identified as
that there, amongst our people, there has been a long distrust of government, or especially local
government since the demise of the County Council and the birth of Far North District Council. –
Interviewee #1
.....................
[X] started meeting with us and explaining our roles and responsibilities and our mandatory obligations
in completing our forms. It was during this time, that we started asking him for some training other
than what he was giving now so that we could understand our responsibilities. Then we, as a committee
had an opportunity to do some SITO training and that was around customary <strong>mana</strong>gement. ... That
training opened our eyes to realising that our role wasn't just around organisations, that we were also to
look at the <strong>mana</strong>gement of the kai in the rohe <strong>moana</strong> that we were gazetted ... It was that training that
made us aware of the customary tools that were available to us and investigating what those customary
tools looked like, then deciding which of those customary tools might we like to consider that would
work best for us in the biggest thing that the group had in common was wanted to ban commercial
fishing ... During the training, we were able to identify what used to be because of stories amongst those
of us that were with us ... It was all sort of trial and error and it was just dream stuff and it was from the
116

timeline that we did in the training it gave us direction as to what we knew was there, what we know is
there and what we would like to look at. – Interviewee #8
.....................
In this role that we have agreed to take on, education is what I believe will help us achieve or work or
progress what we believe we’re there for. Education is going to help us feedback to those who
nominated us, to those who support us, what we want to do and why we want to do it to because
without it I don't think we would be able to do anything. Education, I think, is what's going to build our
capacity to help with succession planning because there needs to be succession planning after us, like
we can't be the beginning and the end. We need to be looking at how we can be doing succession
planning and I believe, education will play a big part in that because we won't have to do it otherwise
and so if we are looking at succession planning, we need to have education to up-skill and build capacity
for those who come behind us. So for me, education has quite a large role to play and how the
education is delivered and accessed and provided is also something that with the relationships of the
agencies that hopefully we can come to some agreement on as to how we work through. – Interviewee
#8
.....................
Interviewee #10– [X].
Interviewee #9 – Yes, [X]....We worked with them. They were wonderful....They were wonderful people.
...
Interviewee #10 – They do maumahara education now. ... They do all the kaitiaki training for the
Ministry of Fisheries.
Interviewee #9 – Good on them because whatever they’re doing, they deserve it because they were
both very, very hard workers, very obliging,
.....................
One of the models that we consider just in doing a, I’m not sure what you’d call it, but it’s our way of
doing a quick assessment of the things that we get into development. We use it as an assessment
model or as a (?) tool and we call it C-STEPLES. Now I’ve got from the University, you know, the
development model called PESTES you remember the PESTES model? PESTES, P-E-S-T-E-S and it’s about
Political, Environmental and all those sorts of things. Well what we do is we kind of step back and we
redefine that PESTES model and we call it C-STEPLES and the things that we look at when we’re
evaluating something seeing which way we’re going to approach it is to use this model and what it is is
it’s our indicators about what are the impacts of this on your Culture, on our Spirituality, on our
Environment. What are the Political things that will enable this to happen or inhibit it, our barriers.
What are the Legal implications of this legislation, some people (?). What are the Economic benefits of
development of the, and of course, it must have some Social wellbeing and the (?) attached to it. So I
was just offering that as a kind of support to understand the context ... so I’ve written it down here,
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Cultural, Spiritual, [Technological], Environmental, Political, Legal, Economic, Social. That’s the C-
STEPLES model that we use – Interviewee #13b
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Legal Mechanisms & Government Intervention
What legal mechanisms can be utilised in order to protect mahinga kai and bring back an abundance of
kai?
Summary of key points:
Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans; Fish Plans; Kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations; apply for customary rights due to the
Foreshore & Seabed Act; utilise hui with Councils in order to have the iwi voice heard
Quotes:
we've got 18 plans that are in various stages of finality. Five plans have been completed. ... she’s our
community researcher and she is the one that out there with the whanau and hapū developing those
plans, being their scribe and if they need environmental advice, ... they called me in and I work with
them on the fisheries section or, mainly the fisheries section in the LGA, local government stuff, RMA
stuff and we have a dedicated conservation officer within our ranks as well, also sits in the same unit as I
do and he delivers all the conservations. – Interviewee #1
.....................
We were compelled in a way to apply for customary rights order as a consequence of the Foreshore and
Seabed Act ... the decision from the Crown was that we go directly into Treaty negotiations. So April
2008, that's when we went into direct negotiations with the Foreshore and Seabed – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Okay, so you're quite unique in that your request for customary rights order ended up
being a catalyst for settlement negotiations and the government continued to negotiate with you along
those lines.
Interviewee #3– That’s correct
.....................
<strong>Mana</strong> Ahuriri Incorporated, is a whole of catchment <strong>mana</strong>gement which Nelson District Council has in
place with Landcare, <strong>Mana</strong>aki Whenua. – Interviewee #5
.....................
EBoP was trying to get this culture created where they go out to each rohe in the Environment Bay of
Plenty Community, they will go out and they will run a marae hui once a month and about two months
ago they ran their marae hui at (Taremaunga?) and they had a hui in the area. From that particular hui,
before that hui started, they wrote to [X] and asked if she would do a presentation about the
environmental concerns relating to the organisation and the rohe. So [X] did a 25 page Power Point and
just hammered all these particular areas. ... They [EBoP] admitted that were a little bit bruised and
battered because they had just got the crank, is what they termed it. Theysaid they will take our
information away and they will be in touch with us about a week to two later. Two weeks later they got
in touch to invite us to go along to the planning session with their <strong>mana</strong>gers in the organisation to
119

actually present our iwi Environment <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plan and to provide some in-service training about
how those <strong>mana</strong>gers could work with this plan and work with iwi and that. – Interviewee #13
.....................
So the Kaitiakitanga enunciated within the Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regs is linked to the principle of Kaitiakitanga
across the whole of the societal structures. – Interviewee #25
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Barriers for Iwi/Hapū
What are the barriers for hapū in using government mechanisms?
Summary of key points:
Government protocols are not an easy process and iwi/hapū sometimes have to look to other
iwi for examples
Paying rates to councils for services iwi/hapū don’t use; financial barriers; money spent on
offices, staff, lawyers; Ministry pays only 1/5 of fees; reliance on funding to achieve aims; Little
funding for hapū initiatives; more financial support available for commercial than for <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua; NIWA charges were horrendous;
Government wants iwi/hapū to ‘walk in the Pākehā world’; ‘nowhere are Māori principles,
Māori tikanga and Māori kawa taken into consideration when making laws, by-laws, toward
conservation of our food source’
New laws set iwi/hapū back in the Foreshore & Seabed process; review of the Act was a barrier
Wasting time in bureaucratic processes; very time consuming; Ministry slowing the process
Ticking all of the government boxes without having government tick the iwi/hapū boxes (not
reciprocal input); government marginalising iwi/hapū; government not upholding their side of
the Treaty partnership
Local government giving no support; legal mechanisms not understood by iwi/hapū; Iwi/hapū
values not understood by government; they are quite separate approaches; Te Puni Kōkiri
weren’t helpful; District & Regional councils weren’t helpful; MFish weren’t helpful (raided
farms looking for illegal fish transfers)
Iwi objections to other iwi
Crown does not reinforce indigenous rights; does not provide ‘assistance to <strong>tangata</strong> whenua’ as
stated in Customary Fishing Regs
The requirement to get a special permit from MFish in order to transplant kai; gather seaweed;
draw water off of land; lots of paperwork asking for things to be defined
Community misunderstanding of the goal of projects; lack of social support; public idea that
areas are closed off so only Māori can have access to kai; public perception that Māori projects
are overfunded; locals with their hands out expecting money from Māori ventures;
Iwi not including/consulting hapū in plans
Legislation not adequately consulting iwi/hapū regarding Māori commercial fishing rights
121

The prevent test is confusing and not adequately explained by government ; government not
available to answer these questions; government giving commercial sector more information
than Māori ‘setting <strong>tangata</strong> whenua against <strong>tangata</strong> whenua’; application process is an unfair
process (‘bullshit’)
‘We were totally unprepared for the avalanche of compliance imposed on us by the Pākehā laws
which we never conceded our rights to. We had a terrible time trying to distinguish between
our rights as Māori landowners and coming to terms with the current L-A-W.’; rights were not
conceded to Regional Councils; Article III rights are being trampled on by government
The reluctance of Crown to use te reo in Deeds of Settlement
Frustration exists when iwi have to prove their customary rights or explain just how much of a
resource they need to use; or what the fish goes to (hui, tangi etc); kai<strong>moana</strong> is only allowed for
tangi
MFish officers threatening to arrest people that are gathering kai for customary use; individual
fishing licences are too expensive for customary gathering
Pollution of estuaries degrades local culture; city councils being given rights to discharge into
rivers; negative psychological impact associated with the poor health of waterways; Kōrero is
lost due to depletion of kai; Māori feel disenfranchised; Not being able to provide for
<strong>mana</strong>akitanga is very embarrassing, diminishes <strong>mana</strong>/identity
Farmers take precedence over <strong>tangata</strong> whenua; Māori have no political power when going up
against farmers
The QMS is set at an unsustainable level
The gazettement process isn’t user-friendly
The RMA took away iwi’s ‘ability to exercise <strong>mana</strong>whenua and <strong>mana</strong> motuhake’. Section 33
hasn’t been exercised
Trust relationships don’t get succeeded in government agencies because they aren’t familybased
Iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plans are a good tool for agencies but agencies should still consult with iwi
MinFish <strong>mana</strong>ges fishing, not fish
Quotes:
We basically were handed a square peg. We had to carve it up for ourselves in during the process of
working through the protocols we were looking at other models or other iwi there were leading the
charge and we reflected or we had to look at [iwi-X] and [iwi-X]. – Interviewee #1
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.....................
Because when you were paying rates, you knew that your rates were going back to your county, now
when we are paying rates, us over in the Western (ward?) that are paying rates, we don't have waste
water treatment facilities. We don't have clean reticulated water systems or any council services, yet
we are rated for them. We don't use Council cemeteries, yet we are still rated and make contributions
to maintain Council cemeteries. We've asked them to review that, but they say, ‘Well, you are a
ratepayer of the district. You will continue to make a contribution.’ Until we push that issue a bit
further on than we will get there but it is going to take time and we realise and understand that. –
Interviewee #1
.....................
Yeah and for them to engage now, the older generation they've turned to us younger ones for the
younger ones to take up the reins and take the lead, just step up and be responsible, hapū and iwi
leaders, but they want us to maintain our tikanga, which we will but they also want us to be able to walk
in the Pākehā world but still hold onto our cultural values our cultural [iwi-X] values. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - You’ve got a big boardroom at the office?
Interviewee #1– Yep, yep. A big boardroom that we can hardly pay the mortgage on
.....................
Interviewee #1- those iwi that were in the Foreshore and Seabed process, who are still in that process
will be affected because then it's back to square one again on what new law is going to come in place.
Interviewer #1 –So I'm going to write ‘[iwi-X] back to square one.’ Is that right?
Interviewee #1– Yeah
Interviewer #1 – Oha
Interviewee – Yeah
Interviewer #1 – Square one, and you happy about that?
Interviewee – No
.....................
A year and a half. Six months of negotiating a terms of negotiation and then probably about three
months, a waste of bloody time and playing touchy-feely between ourselves as negotiators and or
justice, playing touchy-feely, doing work plans and how we're going to do things which we do recognise
and understand as part of the process– Interviewee #1
.....................
123

So yeah, we were ticking all of their boxes and we were coming to try and tick ours, there was nothing.
... If we had of reached some type of agreement, we would have been safe because we would have just
got over that (lilt?) ... it’s marginalised [iwi-X] again from getting our rights– Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewee #1- it was a waste of our time and waste of our resources. We ended up at the moment
with quite a large deficit that our rūnanga governance are going to have to pay.
Interviewer #1 – An overdraft deficit? As in money spent on time and staff and trips-
Interviewee #1– On legal fees.
.....................
We approached the Minister and provided them with the quantitative figure of it all and the cost
directly related for Foreshore and Seabed and he responded by making a contribution towards it, which
only amounted to probably about a fifth of our total deficit. – Interviewee #1
.....................
People that had no clue about what we were talking about. They were good, quick with their pen, but in
terms of interpretation and understanding, there’s a whole lot to be-– Interviewee #1
.....................
it’s not them that we have the angst with, it’s the mechanics that we have the angst with and how those
mechanics are delivered. – Interviewee #1
.....................
In terms of local government, we got no support. We got no recognition and we, our interests in the
Foreshore and Seabed area can’t be provided for without our interests being recognised. – Interviewee
#1
.....................
Well the big barrier? It’s affected not only us but others to follow, was the review of the Act. –
Interviewee #1
.....................
... They are asking for us to define things, really define things and if they’d had that in the first
application it would have been a different story because we would have known where we were going
and know what information we were giving away, but now they are coming back to us and saying that
you didn’t supply the information right from the start, which is because the application was insufficient
... Very limited application when I filled it in ... they just threw out this bit of, out these questions and
they were very vague. We put in what we thought was sufficient information to cover off on the sheet
and according to them now that it isn't so if they had made it that clear, right from the start we wouldn't
be where we are now, with the long finished the application. – Interviewee #2
.....................
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If you put the same application forward today, then chuck it out, because things haven’t changed. If you
went right through [X] again today, he'd just have a look at it and chuck it out and say, ‘You you haven't
got sufficient information.’ – Interviewee #2
.....................
If the application wasn't sufficient there shouldn't have been a public hui at that time. There should've
been more work done on the application if he didn't think it was sufficient, but the public hui went
ahead, time went by, the marae has actually ended up just going ahead and doing things to try to
progress it and it hasn't worked. He continues to ask for more information about our significance to the
area and why we are going out 3 km. We can tell him about, well we can go back into Te (?) Mahanga,
went out 20 km and said, ‘This is our area.’ Also got connections possibly go out 200 km but we can't
<strong>mana</strong>ge that. It didn't think we said to [X] was, because he came back, ‘Oh we've got a number of
applications. I can't come in to see anybody any time.’ We highlighted to him, ‘That is your job. We're
doing this for the love of our place and not getting any payment for it and we've still got lives to run as
well.’ So it's a lot of work and you've got to find the time to pull everybody together. – Interviewee #2
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Okay and you mentioned the Department of Conservation were fairly rigid and of-
Interviewee #3- ... I've got no problems with the local staff. It's just that the main person we deal with in
our negotiations from the head office is very difficult and we are still working on the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement
regime, but we are making sure that we will get most of what we want anyway. So we won't settle
unless we are happy with what’s in the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement regime and DoC. It's in draft at the moment. I
think we will get there
.....................
I mentioned the phrase ‘tinorangatiratanga’, I must admit that I think the Crown are reluctant to use
Māori words in the Deed of Settlement so we might be lucky if they used the word ‘rangatiratanga’ or
‘rangatira’, rangatiratanga or tinorangatiratanga. Tinorangatiratanga, I don't think they’d be happy
inserting that in the other protocols, but we are fighting that. ... The use of Māori words, they are
reluctant to use. We are maintaining a strong commitment that we want these words used, especially
tinorangatiratanga. I mean it's our court too with the Treaty and that. ... So we're striking resistance to
the use of, mainly that phrase, tinorangatiratanga. – Interviewee #3
.....................
We’ve had problems even getting ownership of the hangi stones. That's an issue that we've been
fighting. We own the hangi stones but-...It's part of gravel, you know, who owns the gravel? (Waihua?)
River, if you own the bed of the river, I suppose you own the gravel and the hangi stones are included as
gravel. – Interviewee #3
.....................
125

the kahawai may not be important to other people, but to our ancestors they were the main source of
protein. ... but most of my ancestors were fishermen people, were fishermen. Whenever they got the
chance they'd go out. In our customary rights order it was not only, well it wasn't about fisheries really.
It was about other things like sand and hangi stones, driftwood. That's a silly thing about it, having to
prove your customary rights. God, I thought it was silly. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewer #1 - that was because you had to prove undisturbed occupation?
Interviewee#3 - Yeah you had to prove your, you know, that you occupy, not only that, they are asking
questions like, ‘How much sand would you take or,’ you know, (ata?) pools or as far as we're concerned,
we take it on a needs basis. Whenever the need was, we’d go down there and take whatever, barrel of
sand or pumice and they say, ‘Well can't you put it into bucketfuls or travel loads or-.’ So it was quite a
ridiculous sort of hearing, really. You had to justify how much in terms of quantity.
.....................
You need resource consents or you need, to transplant stuff you've got to fill in a form by the Ministry of
Fisheries, I can't remember what the name is at the moment and don't give two hoots about it either. ...
Yeah, special permit. – Interviewee #4
.....................
If it didn't take much time and if we're allowed to do it straight away, we would go through all that
paperwork. So I guess that's a barrier as well for some people along the coast, especially if you've got
just old people on the committee, how are they supposed to fill out those paper works? – Interviewee
#4
.....................
we tagged them and put them back into the sea ... I think the most that one has grown was three mils so
that was quite good. ...-anyway the pathway is not through, it's all illegal. All this goodness is illegal.
That's basically what it boils down to. Unfortunately. We would like to go through it the right way but I
quite enjoy breaking the law if it's for this. – Interviewee #4
.....................
every time we stood up there was a lot of hammering, trying to hammer us back down, ... – Interviewee
#4
.....................
Not all the old people around here were supportive. ... we thought would understand and they just put
us down and put us down and put us down and put us down-– Interviewee #4
.....................
126

Interviewer #1 - Why are people afraid to support?
Interviewee #4– Just lack of understanding and lack of knowing what we were doing, even though we
said to them, ‘This is what we're doing. We’re growing mussels. We are growing oysters. We're
growing pāuas. We are transplanting kina. We're spawning kina,’ you know. Still that didn't seem-we
must have, when we were saying it took them it was interpreting as, I don't know.
.....................
Surprisingly enough, people thought that we closed off by (Waikokapu?), the mussels closed off, so that
we could eat the mussels. I says, ‘You go down there and you have a look at what mussels are down
there. I'll bet you $1000, and I'll use that money on research, that, because you are going to lose this
bet, that there are no mussels down there ... – Interviewee #4
.....................
Foreshore/Seabed scenario where we were being locked out of our own coastline again and the
mandated iwi organisation preparations which excluded hapū– Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Māori commercial fishing rights. I mean, what is that?
Interviewee#5 – by the legislation. Well who’s defining that? It’s not us. Some policy analyst in an
office, somewhere.
.....................
There’s always lurking in the background about the Oceans Policy– Interviewee #5
.....................
The barrier really for Hapū Collective is that out of all the factions involved, all the organisations– NKII,
Asset Holding Company, the initial Ki Uta Ki Tai, we weren’t resourced in any way so there’s people
existing on the Kahungunu fish money; ... we met prior to the meetings for coffee and breakfast the day
of the other main Ki Uta Ki Tai. That’s what we could afford time wise and financially. So that’s been a
real barrier to the Hapū Collective rigorously teasing apart our perspectives on the drafts of the strategy
going forward. It’s not just meeting, it’s also people’s phones, computers, the whole communication
scenario – Interviewee #5
.....................
Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> is resourced and now we’re a fifth of the people involved in that implementation plan,
not a third and so we’re getting a hapū voice, well is it being heard? – Interviewee #5
.....................
127

What was actually happening, you were forcing those people that didn't have the luxury or the boat to
actually break the law by taking the small sizes because they couldn't get out. – Interviewee #6
.....................
I think that the commercial centre’s really well supported when it comes, not from local or central
government but from within because they have the money to and so they have both the resources and
the know-how when it comes to getting things done. I don't think that <strong>tangata</strong> whenua have that kind
of same level of support. – Interviewee #7
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So what are the barriers, what have you found are the barriers to achieving your
objectives?
Interviewee#7 – Government [laughs] government
.....................
Interviewee #6 - You know, for me, it's looking for that partnership of the Treaty and it wasn't there
Interviewee #7 - Ministers who don't understand, CEs who don't understand, officials that don't
understand.
.....................
Interviewee #6- guidelines which had arose from the prevent test and it was foreign to most, or if not
all, of us except the Ministry of Fishery people and it was only a word. No one knew what it actually
meant.
Interviewer #1 – Did the Ministry make available at the time then following that question the mātaitai
guidelines that they'd developed?
Interviewee #6- I think that came later. That didn't, and when I say later, it probably appeared about six
months later.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Do you think the process is a well-organised process? Because it's quite a simple, if
you look at a customary regulation-
Interviewee #7– It appears simpler than it is
.....................
Interviewee #6 -They sent me over to the court, barriers or obstructions that you haven't heard of, you
know, appear on the table. So I guess they were actually as we were going along with our application,
they were formulising, then other guidelines or interpretations.
128

Interviewee #7 – I mean, there are times when the Ministry has slowed up the application like because
of staff turnover or the Ministry contacted the commercial sector for more information.
.....................
Interviewee #7- The thing that I've noticed with [X] is he does contact the commercial sector for more
information and he does ring them up and let them know like about the re-consultation and that and
because of that communication, I suppose, it's open or giving the commercial sector more information,
you know, they are more informed and then the commercial sector has turned around and used that
information against the Lands Trust as the applicants. Like the example with [X], how even before the
notice was re-advertised for the second load of consultation, that was coming out the following day, but
[X] rang commercial, I suppose it would've been [X] because he's got a good relationship with [X] and he
told him that the application was going to be re-advertised and then [X] is ringing up the Ministry saying
that the Lands Trust isn’t the mandated body that, yeah, so it's giving the commercial, like [X] was giving
the commercial sector kind of a means to kind of use, a means to set <strong>tangata</strong> whenua against <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua.
Interviewer #1 - So government official creating war-
Interviewee #7– He may not have been intending to but that's how the commercial sector can use
information like that. Yeah, and so it makes it unfair in terms for us because we are having to therefore
turn around and justify to [X] why the Lands Trust applied.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So quite a bit of effort by the Ministry to talk to commercial operators. How many
times does the Ministry contact you a year, like say the spatial allocations team? Are they ringing you
every month to give you an update on the progress of your application?
Interviewee #6– No, it laid somewhere and before [X] was appointed as a (Fishery?) personnel and then
we progressed another step and then they started to send, you know, these workers. Oh, they
communicated and then probably, it's sort of like a hot iron. As long as it was hot for that period of
time, well there would be action and requests and then there'd be a response to that request and then
it would just, because the iron's gone cold and that's what it was sort of like
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Do you think it's a very fair process, what you are experiencing?
Interviewee #6– Eh, bullshit, it’s…
Interviewer #1 – Do you think it's designed, do you think the process is being used to assist you to
achieve your objectives?
Interviewee #6– The bullshit part comes in that. Let's go back to that [X] sort of thing. The Ministry has
the officers to check out, to make sure. One would think that we are not wasting money. This is a
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genuine. They are <strong>tangata</strong> whenua, blah, blah, this and that. Now surely they would have checked that
that was the right mandated body to apply, put the application in and then you get a complaint from a
Joe Blogs and that sort of going to put, you know, hold up the application or put it into default. As luck
would have it, we had the minutes where [X] attended the meeting and we were able to provide, but
why the hell did we have to provide it when that was the role, in this case, [X] and whoever else came
out to see us to satisfy-
Interviewer #1 – To verify
Interviewee #6– Yeah, everything and then to be told that, ‘We had a complaint that you weren't the
mandated body and you never were,’ by one person
.....................
Clause 33 of the Customary Fishing Regulation and it says, ‘Assistance to <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki,’ and many a
times we've asked for that and I can say that Te Kupenga forum has asked and we never ever got it. –
Interviewee #6
.....................
Interviewee #6- Yeah, the koha, the actual (person?) koha and as another example was that, unless
they've changed it, amended it, that the forum has a set amount of approximately 20K per annum.
Later on, the Freshwater and they are large number of people and we are told we are to amalgamate
and there's only the one 20K. Where’s this bloody partnership and all that sort of thing?
Interviewer #1 – So access to resources is, there is no access
Interviewee #6– No, will they hold the purse strings and then they got the audacity to return to treasury
something like 12 million, unspent because they didn't have a place, ...They didn't have the, didn't
employ the people for those specific roles yet and they're telling us they don't have the resource.
.....................
due to process around the objections from Kawhia, then we sort of have to wait, – Interviewee #8
.....................
I don't believe that there were barriers as such because I'm mindful of the length of time it took to
achieve it. I don't believe, there might have been some hiccups and some misunderstandings because
there weren't any objections and I think the (?) team may have wanted to make sure that they had
covered their bases efficiently or effectively, but I don't believe that areas which prolong the process
more than I think, I really don't. – Interviewee #8
.....................
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We were totally unprepared for the avalanche of compliance imposed on us by the Pākehā laws which
we never conceded our rights to. We had a terrible time trying to distinguish between our rights as
Māori landowners and coming to terms with the current L-A-W. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - We weren’t prepared really in a manner that the requirements for us to get our licence
to enable us to fish farm and you had to get, unbelievable or not, we had to get a freshwater fish farm
licence. It was anything but freshwater. It was saltwater.
Interviewee #10- You needed the right to extract water and to discharge water. There were bills from
Environment Waikato. Does that stuff fit into another question later or, no? What else did you need?
We needed to have a licence to, a fishing licence to pick up the seaweed off our own beach-
Interviewee #9 – Oh, that was another thing. That was, yeah I’ve got that later. Although our whanau
share resource rights in Harataunga, few were able to progress the horrendous Resource <strong>Mana</strong>gement
Act and the requirements of it.
.....................
Interviewee #9 - I was one of the objectors to the Waikato Resource <strong>Mana</strong>gement formation. ...When
the Waikato Regional Council held their meeting around the country, around the Hauraki Districts, we
were the only two that got up to object to the Waikato Regional Council coming into our area, enforcing
their laws and trying to, and saying that they were going to run the place from there on in or they were
going to <strong>mana</strong>ge our resources. We never ever conceded those resources to the Waikato Regional
Council or anyone else. ... There were problems with the Waikato Regional Council because they
objected to us putting our pipes along what they termed the foreshore, but of course, they hadn’t done
their homework. They had not realised that the rights that we held to that property were our rights
from the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Interviewee #10 – We were there before they were formed and as we were progressing with our farm
other groups and new government organisations were being created were starting to put their hands
out for resources that we own. Even when I started to collect the seaweed, then all of a sudden
seaweed became gazetted. I asked if we could have, if I could use seaweed in my ponds to clean up the
effluent because being an applied scientist, I just wanted to be responsible so I was charged $1000 by
MFish to have the privilege of being able to use seaweed ... ‘How come the leaders and the trailblazers
are –‘
Interviewee #9 – Punished
Interviewee #10 – Are punished for doing this. I’m doing the right thing and I couldn’t keep up. I
couldn’t keep up with all the money that I had to fork out to everybody.
.....................
Interviewee #9 - when we started picking the seaweed up as [X] was saying, they decided that, well
they, I don’t know whether it was the regional council or MeF You see, I always felt that Mef, they were
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pretty slow, they didn’t have, as I said to you, they never had any policies in place, in terms of landbased
farming they had no knowledge because it had never ever been done and so therefore, when we
let them know, let MeF know we were picking the seaweed up off the beach when there was a good
easterly wind, they stopped us and they said, ‘No,’ we had to get a licence to do that and then we had to
get the seaweed we picked off the beach and take it over to Whitianga to their premises and have it
weighed to see how much we were taking from the sea.
Interviewee #10 – Because I needed a licensed fish receiver to weigh it or become a licensed fish
receiver myself.
.....................
It was 1 hour 20 minutes to get the seaweed from our house to MFish and then 1 hour 20 minutes back.
We felt that that was another obstacle that was put in our way to advance our farm. ... Now what I
didn’t understand with Mfish was we had to have a freshwater fish farm licence, then we had, then if we
wanted to do other species on our farm, they said we had to make an application for what they called a
‘variations licence.’ We applied. We got the variation licence because they never told us, MFish, that
variation licence only pertained to one species. What does the word ‘variation’ mean? So each species
that we intended, or we were researching, we had to get a special licence. Each licence were costing
$1000 or more. – Interviewee #9
.....................
I think it was 33 broods of paua, brood-stock, for over $3,000 and we had to do that. The law required
us to do that instead of being able to just go and take the pāuas out of the sea right outside my house.
We weren’t allowed to do it. ... MFish were on our back every inch of the way. They actually raided our
farm four times; never came up with a thing. ... - I hated them. ...I just despised them for what they did
to us. – Interviewee #9
.....................
it was very, very difficult to achieve, especially going through compliance. Compliance, there was just an
avalanche of compliance, unbelievable, unbelievable– Interviewee #9
.....................
Te Puni Kōkiri were absolutely hopeless. They visited our farm at least five or six times, ...But none of
them had the intellect to understand, no put it, it’s true, to understand exactly what we were doing,
none of them. We never got an ounce of help from them because-– Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #10 – [X] collected what, six years of papers. What happened is they’ll say, ‘Oh, go to Te
Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong>,’ and they say, ‘Oh, go to Ministry of Economic Development,’ and they’ll say, ‘Go to…’
and so you have this big. ‘Go to Hauraki Māori Trust Board. Oh, go to…’ and it goes in a big circle and
then you’re back to square one.
Interviewee #9– Back to hopeless Te Puni Kōkiri.
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Interviewee #10 – And Te Puni Kōkiri, they come in and they said, I said, ‘Have you guys got any (?) in?’
‘No.’ ‘Well what do you do?’ ‘Oh, we give advice.’ ‘Oh what sort of advice can you give me about
aquaculture?’ ‘Oh aquaculture, we thought you said ‘agriculture,’ ‘Oh, okay, well thanks for that, see
ya.’
Interviewee #9 – These were the sort of answers we got from the staff at Te Puni Kōkiri and as for
government agencies, no, there was nothing from the TCDC
.....................
they are interfering with my undisturbed rights under Article Three. – Interviewee #9
.....................
And the public works took (metal?) off our property for years and years without a cent of compensation.
They owe me as far as I’m concerned. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewer #1 - the Thames District Council had no interest-
Interviewee #9– No input.
Interviewer #1 – What about your Waikato Regional Council?
Interviewee #9- ... So I agreed to pay drawing water from my <strong>moana</strong>.
Interviewee #10 – Drawing your own water off your own land.
.....................
I agreed to pay the Waikato Regional Council, I think it was 800 and something dollars a year to draw
water from my own <strong>moana</strong>. – Interviewee #9
.....................
they thought we had pipes on public property but they didn’t realise that we owned it. – Interviewee
#10
.....................
MFish ... I viewed them the same as I viewed Te Puni Kōkiri. They were brainless. They would come
onto the property and you know, all guns drawn in all their uniforms and they never ever got anything
on us. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - Totally out of their comfort zone, you know, as with MFish, as with Te Puni Kōkiri. All
the people that got various government departments sent to us for help were hopeless because they
didn’t know what we were trying to do.
Interviewee #10 – TCDC’s got the reputation as being the worst council in New Zealand.
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Interviewee #9– In New Zealand.
.....................
so there was zilch support from the government and apart from that FRST funding that we got and we
were all made to share. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee#9 - Well, we did sell crayfish and MeF came in again to put the water in, ‘Hang on, you need
to have a licence to sell crayfish and you’ve got to have big,’ What was it? ‘You’ve got to sell big
crayfish.’ First of all, Tauranga stopped us from selling crayfish and then we wrote a letter to the
Minister of Fisheries, who told Tauranga to back off us.
Interviewer #1 – Tauranga who, council or Tauranga MFish?
Interviewee #9– MeF, Tauranga MeF, because anything Whitianga couldn’t cope with, they went to
Tauranga, but of course, we had in Auckland, it was good. ... it was just the compliance boys that came
around in the uniforms and guns, there were guns blazing that I didn’t like. I objected to them and they
got nothing.
.....................
As far as NIWA were concerned, I felt that the charges were horrendous for what they contributed. –
Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - The barriers came from every angle. There were more barriers than success stories, ...
Interviewee #10 –... that’s policy of MFish to get rid of the small players, even in fishing, you know, it’s,
so what you do is you up the fees so that only the big players can actually afford to pay them
.....................
Interviewee #10 - you’ll see the big Te Puni Kōkiri building and it’s got beautiful glass moulding and you
see the guys all in suits, but what do they actually give? You know, and their perception is and then you
read ‘Way forward for Māori in aquaculture, paua farming.’ Why is it a way forward for Māori? You
know, there’s Māoris get into it and then you got to pay NIWA for all the research and science.
Interviewee #9 – Even before we started we’ve had, it cost us 35,000, even before we started and that
was just communication between us, the scientists and MeF and well, I should say, in compliance, even
before we got a licence and you know, and everything.
Interviewee #10 – I think it was five grand a day for your feasibility study from NIWA.
Interviewee #9 – That’s right, we had a feasibility study from NIWA- ... To see whether it was viable and
then, yeah, $35,000 later, they said, ‘Yes, it is.’
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Interviewee #10 – You should sue them, because it’s not. [laughs]
.....................
I find that upsetting when you see the newspaper and public attitude is that if you’re Māori and you’re
in aquaculture the money gets thrown at you. That there is that perception that Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> will
support, the Hauraki Māori Trust Board will support, Te Puni Kōkiri will support, there’s all this money,
CEGs will give you money and we couldn’t find it. We found little bits every now and again. It feels like
a lifeline at the time. – Interviewee #10
.....................
Interviewee #10 – They [Hauraki Māori Trust Board] wanted a piece of the action, but other than that
they wouldn’t give us two cents.
Interviewee #9 –But I didn’t want any part of the Hauraki Māori Trust Board, basically because I’d seen
how they run the Trust Board which wasn’t successful.
.....................
I do not have the stamina to go through all that again. I just simply don’t. We’d never do it, never do it.
There’s, and you know, before you’re even selling, people had their hands out for money. People
wanted money from every area. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - What was that thing with MeF over, they raided our farm and it was the wrong farm.
This was another time with MeF.
Interviewee #10– Yeah, they said that we hadn’t reported any, we hadn’t done any of our fish transfers
for 12 months so they wanted to see our paperwork ...actually the scientist or the investigator, he was
just thumbing through it and I could hear him saying to the officer, ‘Hey, this guys records here are
immaculate. What do you mean? He’s even got the receipts to say that they’ve gone. What are you
talking about?’
.....................
The first real Paepae (whakapakari?) was last year so that's some 2 1/2 years after settlement or three
years after settlement, quite disappointed in that because government departments and their policy
analysts, they send senior <strong>mana</strong>gers, but it's CEO to CEO is the intention of that. [X], yes, we do see, but
it hasn't worked all that well, I must say, because there's always a reason why they can't meet with us
and last year I do know that we threatened that they were actually breaching the protocol, that we
would want to re-litigate a contemporary breach. That actually brought them to the table for some
reason, I don't know. – Interviewee #11
.....................
I think that Paepae (whakapakari?) is actually not generally understood very well by government
departments. I do note if you check the (hand-?) for the first reading of the Ngāti Apa bill in the House
135

last month is that (Pariko Horimia?) did make a Reference to Paepae Rangatira, Paepae (whakapakari?)
and he hoped that similar protocols worked better than the first one. Post his comments we did write
to him and say that there's two sides to making these partnerships and protocols work, Mr. Horomia,
and one of them is your availability. So I think there's still some work to be done in Paepae Rangatira,
Paepae (whakapakari?) but fundamentally, the philosophy behind those protocols are very good. –
Interviewee #11
.....................
I think that we've missed an opportunity in so much as the, there's imposition on the paua size in
Taranaki that if we had have got an agreement from the Ministry and a different launch date, and we
never saw that coming, I think we would've been able to stop that. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Interviewer #1 - What were barriers to achieving your objectives for Te Pātaka o Tangaroa?
Interviewee #11– Time, because the team was so small and because being the CEO of a developing postsettlement
governance entity (first?) there's only one of the things you have to do. So in the whole
gambit of things, allocating time to get [X] in the same room as the rest of the small team.
.....................
Interviewee #13 - In terms of the council regulating the lake, they say the importance of regulating the
lake is for recreational boating and recreational fishermen ... our river had a natural runoff, but now you
can clearly see that the lake in some instances is almost making its way up to the marae and that’s from
the river mouth and that’s just highly unacceptable and we were on a (plight?) around our negotiations
to get those gates either relooked at or that they’re regulated at a particular time ...the environment
court they told us that our watercress had gone because of the lake being regulated ... is we blamed our
watercress going because council was taking off too much water ...but scientifically, that’s got to do with
that lake and that whole regulation ...
Interviewee #14 – ...there were basically a time when they put diggers down the rivers like they do with
drains to clean the rivers out. So they’ve actually- ... In a form have dredged the riverbeds as well to
clear all the rubbish out but in doing so, they took all the natural vegetation, everything out of the river
as well, so that had to have had detrimental impact. You add that with the gates and then the further
pollution and no wonder our river’s not as healthy as it was.
Interviewee #13 – The other thing that they removed from our rivers was the raupō growing in the river
and what they were saying was that, with the (kati?) grass and stuff like that, it was a bit of a tourist risk
because kids and tourists would get themselves cut. Having that discussion with the old people, they
understood that the raupō was the natural filtration for the river. So what they have done is taken away
the ecology, you know?
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.....................
Interviewee #13 - I’ve been at the marae and got a call off the local Coast Guard to ask whether we’ve
got a tangi at the marae because some of our people are out there and we did and of course, they’re
questioning me saying, ‘What’s your name, who’s the name of the tangi?’ and stuff like that and I’m
thinking, ‘Well what’s your authority to ask me all these questions?’ and then they go through and say,
‘We’re going to arrest these people unless it’s settled,’ you know.
Interviewer #1 – Is that MFish officers, is it?
Interviewee #13 – Yes, yes.
Interviewee #14 – Must be.
.....................
traditionally, our old people would just stand outside their backdoor basically and fish, but now you
actually have to have a licence to fish and I understand that the licences cost $90 for a child or a 140 for
a family. Now, that’s actually not easy to come by, so the Te Arawa Trust Board, what they do is they
give an allocation per iwi, right, and we have an entity in our iwi called (tangarua?) and (tangarua’s?) job
is all the fisheries area and stuff like that, but of course, what they’ve found with the (tangarua?)
allocation is that same old, same old seems to get the licences so at the last hui on Arawa they have now
moved to change that whole distribution thing, but the point I’m starting to drive through now is that
some of our guys that go to collect the kai for tangi and stuff, nine times out of ten don’t hold licences,
have always (mahi’ed?) kai for the marae and for their families and politically they’re called ‘poachers,’
you know, but for us, they’re actually part of our pātaka kai because they’re not just get the fish, they
get the wild pork. ... There’s that whole tikanga aspect that we’re now trying to be in (wanahau?) about
that because our boys are saying, ‘I got a $2000 fine for poaching off your river.’ And we know that
that’s our river, but they’re making their point and I think, ‘How do we support that?’ because now
that’s $2000 that’s not going to our families, that’s having to go to a whole other court system and stuff
so that’s just something else I want to raise. – Interviewee #13
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what have been the barriers facing [iwi-X] and perhaps some of the current ones-
Interviewee #14– Funding was definitely part of it, ... I think all voluntary organisations have this, which
is, ‘I’ll get to it when I’m not working,’ and so things do get done, but it’s like on a stop-and-start basis.
... There’s a large number of local Pākehā families, people drive past hundreds of springs, you know, (?)
we are a group with no resources whatsoever and you know, basically the leaseholder walked out on us.
We had nothing here and all we got for 15 years was complaints in the newspaper about us not doing
anything. You understand the (?) trying to work with Māori land, but it’s virtually impossible to get a
[background noise] because of our (terms of collateral?) and we have this group of people up there
constantly knocking us as well. That created a barrier simply because certain organisations started to
not want to deal with us because we’re just those useless Māoris out on the back blocks and I tell you if
you were to go through the local regs papers, archives, you’d see that come up at least two or three
times a year.
.....................
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so that was a barrier as well ... public perception. Number Two, you know how easy it is for an
individual to actually take that up in their own mind. So that had an impact on our people. Lucky for us
it made more people angrier [laughs] so that’s [muffled] you know that’s another barrier as well. –
Interviewee #14
.....................
like stuff you could get out in the ocean you could get in the estuary there was that good and that
changed in 1958 when the government at the time subsidised farmers to drain their lands and as a
consequence the Kaituna River was diverted before it got to the estuary and so as a consequence I think
we've only got now pipis left in our estuary, flounder, bit of pātiki, but that's it and pipis and they don't
know how long the pipis are going to last because of these sedimentation that's coming in, ... So there's
all this pressure from farmers to get some drainage going so they could use the land for dairying,
whatever and that sort of happened late 1950s. There'd been a big flood and so the government helped
secure funding to divert the river and at the time they were getting studies done, the Ministry of Works
was involved, drainage boards and that and the engineer said, ‘Don’t do it. It's not going to work,’ and
the Ministry of Works, I think, refused to listen and did it and it didn't stop the flooding, but they put in
the thing and then the groyne so it couldn't close again because they used to deal with it all the time to
close up, nature used to close it and that's just how it happens here, put groynes in to keep it open here.
The thing is that it never cured the flooding so that damage was done and since that time, really, it's just
been, the Kaituna River has just been looked at as a big drain. That's how people look at it, not <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua because we took the Wai claim in 1994, 1984, ...as a result of our claim the Rotorua District
Council, city Council got all that government subsidy so they could put sewage plants and can stop
putting their tiko in the Kaituna. It didn't matter the damage it had done, river’s just silted up since, or
the estuary has. I think that for all of us in Maketu, the estuary was why we were here. It's quite
emotional actually, so the estuary, the families that were standing by the estuary, it was just our culture
really, and the estuary was why we were here. – Interviewee #15
.....................
the Rangiuru Freezing works had been built and they used to put their raw offal into that river. They've
gradually cleaned up their act but it's still, they still have a consent to put some stuff in there. The other
consent is held by Environment Bay of Plenty and that's a consent to divert, now Rotorua’s nitrogen and
phosphorus, which is destroying the lakes. They've built that Ohau channel wall and that diverts
Rotorua's paru down the Kaituna as well so the biggest, apart from the loss of the natural environment,
the biggest thing is the nitrogen pollutants, storm water pollutants, Tauranga City Council, they just got
a comprehensive storm water discharge to discharge into the Kaituna, their storm water for Papamoa
and we fought that-– Interviewee #15
.....................
farmers are protected still, you know, from that 1950s era so with Environment Bay of Plenty, ... farmers
take precedence because they (Environment BOP) are there to look after the river and drainage scheme
mandated by government, so they(Environment BOP) look after them. They actually prepare
submissions on their behalf ... even to Environment Bay of Plenty itself, the river and drainage scheme
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have precedence over <strong>tangata</strong> whenua so really it all comes down to a lack of political power. It's, fight
it all the way trying to get things done, – Interviewee #15
.....................
always asked the Ministry of Fisheries for resources and always been turned down– Interviewee #15
.....................
they said, ‘We’re going to set up a quota <strong>mana</strong>gement system and all the Ministry of Fish staff bought
boats and fished day and night, 24 hours so they put this huge high-level that the quota was based on
that previous 12 months fishing and it was an unsustainable, unnatural take. So that's where the
problem started really, – Interviewee #15
.....................
It was just part of their relationship with the <strong>moana</strong>. There was no fear of anything at all so I have a
vision for those days but it certainly needs us. I don't think the Ministry of Fish can do it, being
empowered to be able to do that. – Interviewee #15
.....................
So along at that time when the 186 got lost at the Ministry somewhere, sort of drifted off and nobody
ever heard of it. ... they made the bloody thing bigger. We didn’t want it that big... Somewhere along
the line, we lost it, well we didn’t lose it, the Ministry lost it. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Well, with the Pākehā side of the community because they don’t inform them. Most of it is it’s not that
we run it or they run it or we both run it, it’s sharing the knowledge that they don’t get. Most people
will tell you, ‘Oh, well that stops us from fishing.’ It doesn’t stop them from doing anything. –
Interviewee #16
.....................
we have problems with in the Ministry is they always want to know where it goes....‘Oh we want to
follow it,’ I said, ‘Whatever marae does with it is their business. It’s got nothing to do with you.’ I said,
‘Once we give it away, it’s their business.’ And they said, ‘Oh, well they might want to give it away to
somebody else?’ I said, ‘That’s their business. What they do with it on their marae is their business.’ I
said, ‘If they want to eat it every day, well that’s their business too.’ So the Ministry in their great faith,
said, ‘Well we want dates.’ I said, ‘Dates for what?’ ‘When you have your huis.’ I said, ‘I could give you
a date for every hui that’s coming up. Doesn’t mean we’re going to have any crayfish there.’ I said,
‘Well we’re trying to get everybody to change over to the pātaka system during winter.’ – Interviewee
#16
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Interviewer #1 - So the Ministry’s process didn’t even prepare the wider public very well, did it?
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Interviewee #16– Well it didn’t prepare anybody, you know. We knew we were going to get it sooner or
later, that was okay, but they rang us up at lunchtime and said, ‘Everybody’s got to get out,’ ... they rang
up every (?) and said, ‘No, you got to pull everything out. Get out now.’ And I said, ‘That makes us
fucking look stink.’ That’s how bad it looked. ... I couldn’t believe how stupid the Ministry was. I said,
‘Just inform them, let them move out and then that’s it.’ ... I took to the Ministry what we were going to
do was get a commercial fellow and we were going to offer to take his by catch. They tried to stop us. I
said, ‘No buy the permit from him and we’ll take all his by catch
.....................
they’re women, ... they’re the ones that feed families. ... They’re doing it because they’re broke ... the
Ministry always catches the broke ones instead of the buggers that are in front of them. – Interviewee
#16
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We had problems with our compliance. They always want to know where it goes, ... They seem to
expect us to hide it away and give it away. ... The perception with compliance is, ‘Oh, you got to hide
your thing.’ I said, ‘If you want to know anything ask.’ I said, ‘We don’t care.’ And so a few times
they’ve got it wrong and they said, ‘Oh you shouldn’t do that.’ I said, ‘Bullshit, why should we hide away
because of you fellows?’ I’m not going in no bloody car park and get crayfish off a truck, put it on my
truck.’ ... He said, ‘Oh it doesn’t look right.’ I said, ‘I don’t care if it doesn’t look right or not. I’m not
hiding around the corner.’ Because we usually catch some of them when they’re coming back from (?)
just take it off their truck and put it on ours or put it in our van or that and I said, ‘Don’t ever hide when
you’re doing this.’ I said, ‘It’s the buggers hiding in the car park that everybody’s watching.’ –
Interviewee #16
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Now our compliance, you don’t see them. They’re like assholes now. Can’t even talk to them. ... no
one trusts them anymore. Once upon a time, they were good. They would all go out and help them, –
Interviewee #16
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Ngāti Rehia have their own gazettement in place and we endorse that but they didn't endorse ours. The
second one was Ngāti Hine because they had other interests which had more to do with their
commercial fishing quota which was held by Ngāpuhi and I think that they felt that they needed some
coastline to protect that.... And so the motives to object to us were totally nothing to do with us. They
were people's own self-interests and I thought that was really unfair that we had to endure that. ... we
could have gone to court and thrashed it out. We could have. I didn't want to do that, ... none of them
have got a Fish Plan, so we are saying, 'Well how can you object? You haven't even got a Fish Plan, what
are you objecting against?’ And they didn't really have an objection but it was an objection and they
wouldn’t lift it. So I think the process of MinFish need to be re-examined and in fact, I just felt that [X]
was hiding behind the objection rather than trying to find a way through it and I can understand this but
since I'm not a (?) I can understand this position because he is guided by the rulebook and I guess he's
got a responsibility to the objectors as well. – Interviewee #17
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And I can understand that MinFish doesn't want to get involved in rohe boundaries or areas. ... the
thing is though, you only need one person to have a stitcher on and the whole thing crashes and burns.
– Interviewee #17
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I think if there were some rules and I'm not saying that MinFish should be judge and jury, but maybe
there is a process that they go through. It's a bit tighter than what it is. – Interviewee #17
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Oh I think the gazettement process needs to be made a bit more user-friendly. ... you want to get buy-in
from everybody, but objecting for the sake of objecting isn't really an objection. – Interviewee #17
.....................
I think it's an unfair process. I think it's a barrier. It's a barrier because you don't have the resources,
you know, I'm talking about the financial resources. I'm not saying they should get paid but you know,
we've been fortunate with MinFish that we have been able to complete the research data and do that
and there was some payment for that to compensate the people who did it. – Interviewee #17
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during my studies when we did look at the development of the RMA, it started off quite sustainablyfocused,
the focus was sustainable development. That was the main focus of it. Then it got tampered
with by the powers of the different lobby parties such as Fish & Game, you know, and now we’ve got
protection for a non-indigenous species. It’s the only non-indigenous species that is accorded
protection under the RMA ... Brown trout, ... that shows the political influence that went into the
development of that legislation. Also the other lobby powers coming out of the dairy industry, they
brought back what was intended and what it is today is, in terms of what the legislation ended up
spitting out, were two different things because of the political influence as it was being drafted or
written. So I think they started off really well, then the politics kicked in and it got changed and the
economic focus was really pushed. So like when we say that the people who helped draft that
legislation ... when they had their hand to it, it was a good document that really supported things, not
just Māori things but sustainable <strong>mana</strong>gement of resources, but of course, when anything hits
Parliament it becomes quite political and that focus gets lost. So when you say intent I think we go right
back to the Genesis of the RMA, not just what the legislation spitted out, ... had pure intent and you
know, I think the course of time has a put up boundaries around the RMA if anything, just like most law,
the precedent will start putting boundaries around it, case setting precedent. ... were there other tools
to help us achieve our needs, and yes, there are. It could be better. It could always be better, but the
tools that were there that were quite good got taken out within months, such as iwi affected parties,
you now have to show you are directly affected before you can be an affective party and things like that.
Those were all watered down or taken out completely under the guise of holding up the works ... at the
end of the day it took away our ability to exercise our <strong>mana</strong>whenua and our <strong>mana</strong> motuhake, so yeah, I
think it’s being progressively squeezed rather than opened up such as the Section 33, our ability to
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transfer pāuas, you know, I don’t think that’s been exercised well at all. Nobody’s been able to get
through that process without it getting, well I’m yet to hear of an iwi that’s fully exercised that, other
than Tainui’s done that water, river-– Interviewee #18
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I have yet to see real obvious signs that somebody’s reading [the plan] and voicing back what we’re
saying, but what it has done is put us on their radar and they do know they must come and see us. Of
course, the RMA only allows for it to be given regard when they’re reviewing or changing or writing
District Plans or Regional Plans, policy statements and things like that, however, so that’s where we’re at
now. – Interviewee #18
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we have experienced a big change in the way they [Environment Court] engage in us and they want to
engage with us, yeah and that’s cool in that respect. I think what now needs to occur is the support to
go with that ... everyone at the table bar the local iwi, local hapū are on a payroll of some sort, ... the
only ones who seem to be not engaged in that process or ... not recognised ... in a financial way are local
iwi and the emphasis we try to push is that this is specialist knowledge. This is expert knowledge that
you won’t get anywhere else just as you need to go and get a consultant, engage in engineer with his
expert knowledge to determine your project or a planner or a whatever, these people to have a set of
expertise that you won’t find anywhere and therefore you must compensate them for that, their time
and their energy and their resource and their skill ...one of our regional council huis Transit New Zealand
were talking about their next round of engagement submissions required and I was just, ‘(?) Oh no, not
a damned submission to write,’ you know, and that’s us who are in a resourced office. What about the
cousins who are working out the back room still or having, running out in the wharekai, you know, how
about them? How do they <strong>mana</strong>ge to respond to all these requests for iwi approval, you know and I
really believe that that needs to be resourced because those people are giving up their time and energy
to help your kaupapa ... usually it’s about what the Council want. It’s not usually about them coming
out, ‘Oh we want to give you good lighting and good waste service,’ you know, usually it’s about a new
road to support development or a new something to serve, ... so there’s always a big ask on the time
and energy of the iwi or the hapū but there’s no reciprocating support, whether it even be just send
someone out to do writing on our behalf or sit there talk and they write the damn thing you know. –
Interviewee #18
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we’re poor on all levels on the table, spiritually because those stories, we don’t have those stories to
share anymore or we can’t go down and boast about our watercress and take people down, ‘Look at
that,’ you know, so it’s that <strong>mana</strong> stuff crunches into your ability to maintain your hapū <strong>mana</strong> by being
able to put on the table, you know, because it all comes back to kai. You know how we are. We always
come back to kai and that’s the epitome of our <strong>mana</strong>akitanga, how well we can feed each other, but
even those relationships to the whenua, you know, you could go down as a group and collect watercress
kōrero and the next minute the stories come out, ‘Oh, I remember when so-and-so, Uncle used to get in
the …,’ you know, you’re there so the kōrero comes, you know, so we’re not getting out there so much
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so we’re not talking and sharing the stories so much if you know what I mean. We’re very much a
theoretical race– Interviewee #18
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Interviewer #1 – Yeah that’s right and because the haukāinga doesn’t move, does it?
Interviewee #18– No, we’ll never change and that face may change, but that relationship will be passed
on. ‘No, they’re alright, boy. We’ve got them. Ke te pai. Oh, I trust your word, Uncle, so I will,’ you
know? So that, there’s succession in that. That trust relationship gets succeeded, but it doesn’t occur in
these government organisations because they’re not focused, you know they’re not family-based. You
know what I’m saying? ... That person’s integrity has been questioned because the policy changes
.....................
What’s interesting is that quote, that settlement only allows for kai<strong>moana</strong> for tangi, that’s it, which is
cool, but we’ve had some major big hui like our Deed of Settlement date, you know, signing, we went to
just the fellow, the CEO of the Fisheries Trust is my husband’s cousin, his first cousin, we were at a tangi
and, ‘So what’s the ability to access kai<strong>moana</strong> for bigger huis?’ Because we were about to have our
signing ceremony, ‘Any chance of getting some fish for that?’ He goes, ‘Oh, no, the policy only allows
for tangi,’ and I thought, ‘Well that’s a bit…,’ you know, we do celebrate things too. We don’t just bury
people in our land and he talked about, ‘Oh it would be really hard to say what’s hui and what’s not a
hui,’ you know, but I thought, ‘No, that’s not cool. We should be able to feed manuhiri that come for
celebrations as well, not just for tangi and I mean I suppose we’d have to look at what constitutes a hui
of import, you know, but hui (a iwi?) I think, is a hui of import. So I think that’s one of the falldowns of
that system is that we can’t access it if, you got to die. You’ve got to die before you can get some of that
kai<strong>moana</strong> there. There’s something messed up with that, you know. – Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewer #1 –Were agencies supportive?
Interviewee #18– No, all the agencies were massive, you know, they’ve very much come to grips with
Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans and if anything, they encourage them because it’s a vehicle for which they can
understand where the people are coming from ... just have to be careful they don’t become the onestop-shop
and don’t even bother coming to see you because we’ll just read your Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plan,
you know, sometimes it’s a good thing because it’s like, don’t even bother knocking if you want to do
something that’s way out of the scope that we think is acceptable, don’t bother knocking, but the other
side of it is you still should ask, maybe if it does say that we might be okay with that don’t assume that
that is safe. So it’s a double-edged sword but these ones, these particular (?) body outfits are screaming
down the door for them. Barriers? Probably I find some of our biggest barriers are ourselves trying to
regulate ourselves, trying to get ourselves to embrace these things we’ve been talking about
.....................
Interviewer #1 –what opportunities are there for you in your role for to have a real say or a greater
participation, a real influence over the <strong>mana</strong>gement of the local resources?
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Interviewee #18– I guess that’s where the Treaty process has been helpful. Also, you know the other
instruments we’ve talked about, iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plans, MoAs with local government, those are all
there. It’s just getting the fellow with all the lollies ie. The Crown or the government to want to sit down
and play, you know, at the end of the day they hold all the power and the authority unless they want to
sit and play with you, they’re not going to and so we had to jump up and down and make a big noise
before we appeared on their radar and now everything’s much better, but you don’t get the
opportunities until you come into conflict, you know, it seems. ... To create change, it takes, (what? said)
takes a revolution to create a resolution. Sometimes you have to say, ‘No, enough is enough,’ before
people say, ‘Okay. Okay, I’ll be nice. I’ll be nice and I’ll play nice.’ And it’s stink because you get your
back pushed into a wall first. Unfortunately, we wait until we’ve been you know, got our backs to the
wall and we’ve got nowhere else to go, ‘Oh well, arrrr,’ want to fight back, but what it takes to get you
to the wall is the debilitating part, you know, and it took [iwi-X], what, 20-something years to get up
from the debilitating struggle, having their puna taken to get to a point of response and that’s a lot of
time.
.....................
just a guy that walks around in the taiāpure area, in the taiāpure area, yeah, the taiāpure has been
legislated to look after and I used to go with the honorary fisheries guys and the permanent fisheries
guys and do a tour and got a bit of insight on what the fisheries people do as in interviewing,
interviewing people with quota and stuff, divers and fishers and all that sort of stuff so that was a good
insight. I did that for about a couple of years with the local fishery boys from the Ministry of Fish and
then I ended up being the permit issuer for the taiāpure for about three years and I’ve only just recently
given it up because too many people’s calling into my house. I was supposed to work from the office
down at the seabed, but oh, I’ll never get me lawns done. [laughs] Especially because it was a nonpaying
job. It was a non-paying job. It was all voluntary – Interviewee #19
.....................
I still feel that the government should be funding it, not the internal iwi that’s need that money for other
things like creating employment for the young people. I think the government should be funding it –
Interviewee #19
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Interviewee #19– It’s not a problem if you’ve got a hui on,’ but the fisheries, they claim the hui is a tangi,
a tangi, a tangi, I think that was it. That was the bottom line and we’re trying to say a hui is for 21sts,
weddings, fairwells and everything like that and I’ve had many a run-in with the senior officer in
Tauranga over this.
Interviewer #1 – It’s a bit of a difference of opinion on what is actually fishing right
Interviewee #19 – Yeah, they actually told me I was issuing too many permits and I said, ‘Well you know,
go, you want to sort it out? We can go and sort it out, but you know, you’ve got to remember that three
or four bags of mussels for a tangi or for a 21st birthday with Māori, this is over a period of two or three
days.’ And they have the opinion that it’s just for one meal, you know, I said, ‘No, that’s over a period of
two or three days,’ and you know, that’s what we, that’s how I interpret it to be.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So the rāhui was, had legal powers behind it or was it voluntary?
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Interviewee #19 – No, it was a voluntary thing. ... But the only trouble is with that, we had the Ministry
of Fish saying you could still go in there and get your quota and that sort of kicked us in the ass a bit, you
know, instead of trying to help. [X], you know, he was with us, but he said, ‘What we should have gone
was for the 186a or something, but we thought we’d be more realistic having that, it was too much
paperwork to go for that 186a. You know it’s good over in Tauranga because they were getting
thrashed and then we got getting thrashed, but we thought rāhui was good and when you had the
backing of the community behind you, especially all your local divers and stuff, you know, they’d keep
an eye on things. Then you had the Ministry of Fish coming in and saying, ‘Aww, you’re still allowed
your 50 mussels,’ and I thought, even though we weren’t issuing permits, only for tangi at that particular
time, only for tangi, not weddings, not huis and that’s the only thing that broke the rāhui was the
Ministry of Fish saying, ‘You know, you’re still entitled to get your 150 pipis
.....................
I think Ministry of Fish have hindered us quite a bit. When we had to control, when [X] was in the
Ministry of Fish, we issued the books out to our people that we made permit issuers. Then when [X] left
they recalled the books and partly rightly so, because each iwi can go to the Ministry of Fish and get a
book, permit book, each hapū, each iwi, each hapū, but then again we lost control of who was issuing
permits. The taiāpure lost control of who was issuing the permits and that’s, and the Ministry of Fish
wouldn’t back us, like they won’t even give us a book now to issue permits. Yeah so it’s all been given to
the iwis and we don’t know if Joe Bloggs to whoever have got – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewer #1 - are you well connected between what happens here on the coast and what’s happening
at the boardroom level of (Tikautahatanga?)? ...
Interviewee #19 – I think we are connected, but not in a funding way, not in a funding way. We are
connected. They like to hear what’s going on, what are we doing and stuff like and we do have a
representative on that board, but funding-wise, no. But you know, they do slip us some pennies now
and again. They do slip us some pennies, but I still think it’s not for them to supply the money to do this
research work out here. I think it should be government-funded. It’s for everybody. ... If it’s just for
Māori, if it was just for Māori and just for this hapū or this iwi, I’d go along with that, you know, we’d
fund it ourselves and, but it’s for everybody. ... Everybody’s got that access
.....................
I think you know, if iwis are given their areas to look after, and so they should, so they should look after
it. They know more about it than anybody else, you know, the other government agencies, unless they
fund proper research people to go in there and do the research and the survey work – Interviewee #19
.....................
They could be undersized and we haven’t got a foot to stand on. ... but if we had the powers that the
taiāpure should have, like we had in the past we could have done something about it. We had never
had powers of arrest. We never had powers of arrest, but we had powers to stop and ask and interview
– Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewee #19 –it sort of slowed down a bit in the last couple of years. You know, you know, the other
hapū members need to come back onto it, you know, when you have a meeting and there’s only three
or four people there and two of them are Ministry of Fisheries, you know, you sort of, Ministry of Fish
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coming ... And they say, ‘Gee, what am I doing here? I could’ve been at home you know, there’s only
two or three members of the taiāpure there, but-
Interviewer #1 – So is there young ones coming through to back up the old uncles and aunties that are-
Interviewee #19 – Not yet, no.
.....................
Interviewee #19 – We had it all, yep, we had it all. Still had no funding [laughs], still had no funding you
know, we’re just living from hand-to-mouth, but yep, we had it all and we was going for the second
stage and but it all sort of fell to pieces. Yeah I think, I think, yeah, when we lost [X] and we lost [X]-
Interviewer #1 – They take with them more than just a job. They take their relationships they’ve forged,
all the momentum they’ve created because they’ve got a good feel for what’s working and they push
things along.
Interviewee #19 – And this girl, [X], you know, she does her best, but her hands are tied because you
know, she’s Ministry of Fish people so she can only do so much and she’s been a big help with the
taiāpure in the same way that [X] is but only in a lower sort of scale and sometimes, you know, she’s got
just stay the course,
.....................
Interviewee #19 – [The taiāpure] has a ten-year, twelve-year plan and stuff, but we haven’t sort of got it
by the balls, if I may say that expression. We haven’t got it by the balls and squeezed it. It still needs to
be done. It still needs to be done and the way that things have fallen around us, we’re getting there
ever so slowly, but we could have got there a lot quicker with the support of all the iwis and hapūs that
should have a, well they’re all entitled to a delegate or to a, what do you call it, a representative on this
taiāpure, but they never come.
.....................
Interviewee #19 – Because we have these meetings and no bastard shows up, you know, where’s these
representatives from all these hapūs and iwis and whanaus you know, they should be there. They
should know what’s going on, but you know, it’s like we have to push it, but you know, we can only do
so much when you haven’t got no pūtea. You can only do so much and that’s why we need to get back
this big strong group again like we used to.
Interviewer #1 – So it’s doable
Interviewee #19 – It is doable. It is so easy
Interviewer #1 – On a shoestring budget, in fact, no budget
Interviewee #19 – We just, we’ve done it before. We’ve done it before, but now as times get harder,
petrol’s gone up, people don’t want to use their boats for nothing. You don’t want to use your car for
nothing, you know, everybody wants to be recompensed.
.....................
Interviewer #3 – So if you think about the quota <strong>mana</strong>gement system as it is and their levels of
knowledge and then you reflect on local area <strong>mana</strong>gement tools that we were talking about and maybe
that, I think you were indicating that there isn’t any official evidence that a difference has been made in
terms of the abundance of species there, but can you say something about knowledge at that level, at
the local community level that might contrast with the sort of knowledge that scientists might have
about fisheries more generally in those big areas?
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Interviewee #20 – Yes, the answer is yes, there’s a huge contrast in approach. You know, the local
community is very passionate about its own backyard, isn’t it? And the fisheries scientist has to try and
make sense of fish species on such a huge scale and I think there’s a narrowness and there’s a weakness
in their approach in that they’re trying to understand what they can about a species but they don’t
actually, they’re still groping in the dark in some respects. They don’t actually know and so I think they
do the best they can with what they’ve got. I think that certainly seems to be the case.
Interviewer #3 – This is, are you talking about fisheries MaF scientists, right
Interviewee #20 – Scientists, yes, but the, they’re all contracted, NIWA and other scientists, they
contract in. Plus MaF has a team of, I think it’s not many, a half-dozen scientists in-house, but yeah,
there’s a huge variation between what the scientists, who are really the key people informing the
<strong>mana</strong>gers to inform the Minister. It’s not the local community. There is no mechanism, there is no
mechanism for MaF to gauge local community knowledge on what’s happening on their coasts, there’s
none. The only way they’ll get informed is if someone rings up the 0800 POACH number to say
someone’s, looks like they’re infringing the law.
.....................
They were trying to empower their communities, but at no time would an MFish official think that they
were anything but informing the fisheries officials’ decision-making. The fisheries officials are there to
ensure the Minister makes the decisions, so yes, they were of value for engaging because a lot of effort
went into those, creating that engagement model, but I know now that MaF is saying it doesn’t have the
resources to engage with that model anymore and it’s going up to the QMA level. So you’re back to that
scenario of three or four representatives sitting around a table on behalf of everybody else, along that
coastline, so I mean the chances of that being very community-inclusive model is virtually zero, really. I
mean it’s a lot of pressure on a few people to be the conduit – Interviewee #20
.....................
Interviewee #20 – Under the current government, I don’t think, I think the Minister, Phil Heatley, put out
a directive quite early on that MFish staff weren’t to be seen assisting them in these applications. So it’s
quite interesting that they are seen as a spinoff of the SeaLord’s deal, the 1992 Treaty of Waitangi
Fisheries Settlement Act and there was, from that, as part of a commercial redress, but also there was
supposed to be a customary redress, which was where the customary regulations comes from, so that’s
the South Island Customary regs and North Island kai<strong>moana</strong> customary regulations. So they were seen
as the customary redress arm of that settlement and inside that is the mātaitai (total?) access to the
mātaitai. So it’s interesting that, a flow-on effect of the settlement was the, what that particular
settlement, was the ability to in a mātaitai, yet you know, 20 years later now, 19 years later is a real-
Interviewer #3 – So the government, at least this government, seems to be actively standing in the way
of getting more mātaitai on the ground, is that what you’re saying?
Interviewee #20 – It would appear so if you were judging them on the turnover of mātaitai and I think
there’s up to 50 mātaitai applications in the queue and the truth is you can find fault in anything in the
MFish process, from what I can see, that seems to be their culture, looking for faults.
Interviewer #3 – Right, as an excuse to slow things up you mean?
Interviewee #20 – Oh, there’s a, you know, you can justify inactivity or negative decisions it would seem
on a range of things in that. Having said that though, Ngāi Tahu have had considerable success, to my
understanding.
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Interviewee #20 - In the North Island it’s quite a, what’s the word, -
Interviewer #3 – Contested?
Interviewee #20 – Heavily and in fact a lot of them, it’s quite a few areas that are locked in dispute and it
was the North Island where I think it was [X] created the, what do they call it? ‘Partial gazetting’ was the
new term that was created and it was where there’s areas of dispute like this they would go either side
of the line and distance and that would allow it to go through so it was gray areas.
Interviewer #3 – Right, so the area of dispute was just left for now?
Interviewee #20 – Yeah because some of those boundary disputes are you know, it’d be very, very
difficult to you know, resolve and particularly using the Crown process ... because Crown process is quite
black and white. It likes to have a line on a GIS map, isn’t it? GPS coordinations, coordinates around it.
So yes, there’s real competition. It’s a different challenge, real different challenge. And I’ve heard the
South Island iwi including the Te Ohu Iwi have created their iwi fisheries plan so it would be good to get
inside that. So that’s, and you know, not any time soon will they be being produced in the North Island
on such a collective scale.
.....................
Interviewee #20 - a lot of it’s voluntary you know. So what you’ve got people from (Maniora?) a bit of
an honorarium, it’s still a day out of your own life, isn’t it?
Interviewer #3– So are you telling me that the Fish plans that these iwi and hapū put so much effort into
are now essentially sitting on a shelf somewhere?
Interviewee #20 – Well apart from Ngāi Tahu, apart from Ngāti Kahungunu, and two or three others, I
don’t think they have progressed at all and I know inside the, at the deputy chief executive level of
MFish, I don’t think they’re at all motivated in seeing them through, even though on paper and on their
brochures they’ll say it’s all about these iwi fisheries planned outcomes, I don’t think there’s a lot of buyin
inside the Ministry.
.....................
it’s not necessarily based on a Māori engagement model. It’s based on, you’re dealing with boardroom
rūnanga-type level. So and so that was the commercial settlement and at the time it was about getting
the settlement, commercial, getting Māori to agree to that commercial model, settlement model and
later in the event these customary regulations one we’re going to eventuate and that’s when we’ll get
the Māori experts in and I think it worked alright in the South Island, but in the North Island there was
issues over the inclusion of freshwater because there was issues over lakebeds, challenges over lakebed
ownership issues with Taupo and with Rotorua at the time, all those sort of lakes, and I think, because
Margaret Mutu was part of that, but I think they walked out because they got upset that it was being
dictated to by the Pākehā/government analysts and they were saying it wasn’t built on a Māori model so
it was doomed to fail - Interviewee #20
.....................
I must explain initially the political scene of Kahungunu in terms of hapū relationship. In Kahungunu we
believe that hapū are the rightful owners of the land and not the Kahungunu iwi. Kahungunu iwi, as you
probably are aware, is a name given for the many hundreds of hapū within Kahungunu. We believe that
there is a very big mistake made by the Crown when they deal with us as people within Kahungunu and
the Crown tends to lump us together as an iwi. ... Kahungunu do not own the land that I live on, my
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hapū does, the hapū the whanui within that hapū and therein you will find controversy every time you
interview people within Kahungunu and you talk about iwi, but, in fact, it’s hapū who have the
responsibility for that particular area where they live. – Interviewee #22
.....................
Well I haven’t found [local and central government] very helpful at all ... they don’t have more than a
passing interest in our views about the land, about life itself within New Zealand. They never had a need
to because they’re in power and so to be able to take part in that power-sharing, you have to have
some, what we call, tinorangatiratanga recognised and through the land claims it’s just starting to come
about and, I guess, it’s power begets power and when that starts to happen people start to take notice
of the person who’s now controlling the stick, I guess, and so things are starting to change with the land
claims and we’re starting to now get into dialogue and make more of a difference in terms of who we
are as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua. – Interviewee #22
.....................
I feel that we are working towards sharing the decision-making, ... there’s a long way to go in terms of
our, talk to the Crown as our, and the people of New Zealand as our Treaty partners. There’s a long way
to go for that to happen, but I believe that we’re actually on the road towards power-sharing, but we
have to be ever-vigilant because it’s not going to be given to us. We have to make sure that we tick all
the boxes and that we’re able to prove to the Crown that not only do we want to have this powersharing,
but we have a right to it and I think then we’ll start to see some difference in terms of
conservation within our, on our lands, in our waterways and in the sea because nowhere is, in my view,
is Māori principles, Māori tikanga and Māori kawa is taken into consideration when making laws,
bylaws, toward the conservation of our food source and we think it’s important, I think it’s important
because originally before colonisation we were the ultimate, consummate conservationists. –
Interviewee #22
.....................
What struck me, [X], to be honest, was that very few agencies were really on the board with how they’re
going to deal with Māori. Their willingness was also varied. Their capacity to know how and what that
meant was extremely varied. Some were very prepared. They knew exactly what the responsibilities
were. They were really welcoming of the accord. They could see where it was going to have really good
effect. Others were like, ‘Oh we’re just not sure how we’re going to do this. We don’t know. We’re not
doing a very good job of implementing our Treaty principles. We’re nervous. We don’t know who you
are,’ and that came out and so what really, what became really important was them developing a
relationship with us and understanding us as iwi before we went too far. There’s a lot of nervousness. –
Interviewee #24
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Policy implementation, generally requires funding to achieve the aims. We need to change this reliance
to a more independent basis for action. In this case the rohe <strong>moana</strong> <strong>mana</strong>gement team, te Komiti
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Whakature i nga Taonga a Tangaroa, continually require funding to assist in the implementation of their
<strong>mana</strong>gement plans. They are in a mental deficit paradigm. The strength of the iwi to think is more
important than the ability receive funding opportunities. The Treaty is an example of what we are
capable of. It is an agreement and recognition of our Sovereignty and a direct development of te
Whakaputanga o te Whakaminenga o Ngaa Hapū, [although the current Crown administration does not
reinforce our indigenous rights via the United Nation Declaration of Indigenous rights]. – Interviewee
#25
.....................
There are some barriers at this point in time to the concept of integrated catchments <strong>mana</strong>gement with
marine activity but we expect these to be broken down over time. ... The Western Ministerial structures
are quite separate in their approach and a natural consequence of budgeting reporting and
responsibility and although this a foreign concept at present we believe that more Māori approach of a
holistic view wherein all things are related in some manner or other will become the more successful
method for solving very complex problems. Separate administrations of departments is not very
consistent with our interpretation of te Tiriti principles. – Interviewee #25
.....................
The Utopian outcomes may best be described or circumscribed by the Oyster Farm debate/problem.
Oysters are a good example in many ways. First they were one of the species that Maori complained
were being harvested by Pākehā contrary to te Tiriti. Pākehā had no right to harvest taonga expressly
protected by te Tiriti. This lead to the 1860 Oyster Reserves Act and the establishment of reserves for
Māori consumption not commercial activity although during World War 2 Oysters were harvested from
the same reserves and used in the War effort.
Now the oyster farms are being blamed for the sedimentation of the harbours when in fact they are
only a measure of the effect and in the absence of any other ‘yardstick ‘ across acres of mudflats a stick
will become the unofficial and anecdotal reference point. The causes of sedimentation are very complex
and relate more to the accelerated natural processes bought on by agricultural /pastoral land clearing
practices of farmers and settlements inland. – Interviewee #25
.....................
[X] is one group and because they’re going for their settlement and I think they, in my view, and I’ve
said it at meetings, they’ve got their settlement that they’re worried about and they’re claiming some of
the coastline for Te Arawa. … I find that pretty sad that they still can’t stay with the taiāpure and help
run it, but I suppose I do understand that they’re going for their settlement and then they want their
tinorangatiratanga, I suppose and that’s understandable, but when you think about the <strong>mana</strong>gement of
the <strong>moana</strong>, we’ve got to be doing it together. Sorry, you know, regardless of your settlement, we need
to be a collective <strong>mana</strong>gement group, whether it’s a taiāpure or whether it’s another structure to
<strong>mana</strong>ge the coastline of Te Arawa, including [X], … we’ve got to do it together. So we’ve lost half the
committee when [X] don’t come any more. [X]’s not there at the moment. Who else is not there? [X]’s
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not there. … we said, ‘Well we’ll just leave the doors open.’ Hopefully they’ll come back once they’ve
done their settlement and we’re just struggling along on our own. We meet once a month, on a regular
basis… and sometimes there’s four or five of us there. Sometimes there’s three of us there and we just
carry on. - Interviewee #26
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So having the committee in place, do you think it’s been quite empowering for the
community?
Interviewee #27 – Initially, yes, but now it’s got to the stage that even the taiāpure body who’s
becoming a lot of frustrations, over the years the amount of work we used to do, policing the, as <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua, the kai<strong>moana</strong> that has been taken from the <strong>moana</strong> and I’m sorry to say that we weren’t given
full support from the Ministry of Fish and I honestly believe that the Ministry of Fisheries should have
been funding us for doing that particular work. We were trying to maintain the preservation of our
kai<strong>moana</strong>, for all users.
.....................
Interviewer #1– Okay, with the taiāpure, what would you differently in hindsight? Would you go to the
effort of setting up a taiāpure committee, knowing what you know now?
Interviewee #27– Ah, if , I thought if, knowing what I know now, no, because I’d see what this lack of
support we get from all governmental departments.
Interviewer #1 – Do you think the taiāpure has achieved what it originally intended to achieve for
Maketu?
Interviewee #27– No, no, as I said, we have barriers that have been created and we can’t overcome
them because the law is not on our side.
.....................
Interviewer #1 –what were the barriers to trying to get this application through? ...
Interviewee #28– The attitude of the special <strong>mana</strong>ger, actually, not understanding where we were
coming from as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua. You know, he's an academic. How he sees things is a lot different to
how we see it. His was to the finer detail where we could see the bigger picture of things. I feel that
he's taken, he supported more of the objectives than the people who objected to the process than what
he has for us because he's taken all this time to try and contact them all again regardless of what the
lawyer has said about them not having a, you know, none of them have come back to him. They didn't
seem to think he was representing them anymore.
.....................
It will come under and but every piece of legislation that I’m aware of, is actually punitive. It punishes
you know, what we’d like to contribute. We’re not able to contribute. There’s not an opportunity for
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inputting the body, the width and breadth, and depth and the global nature of the way that <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua view not just the fish, but its environment and the people and all these issues that are current
today. So the Ministry of Fisheries legislation: customary, recreational, commercial, whatever, it’s like
severely wanting and I’m a trained scientist so, but I choose to go more down the social road, but you
know, even if you look at the stats, there’s great big holes in the methodology and how are they ever
going to accurately get a fix on the biomass? And they just need to shake the whole thing up and start
again. ... the MFish legislation that I’m aware of is punitive. It’s punishing. They don’t want to know
what people can contribute and whether you’re a fisherman you know, so that their bottom line is a
legal one around the dollar as far as I can tell – Interviewee #5b
.....................
so that would be a measure of success if the principle on which the corporate entity operated factored
in the hapū view of the world, you know, then we could live with that, but right now the money side of
being Ngāti Kahungunu is quite divorced – Interviewee #5b
.....................
the <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki were being brought together but not, with MFish officials or employees/officials, but
they weren’t resourced in any way to report back to the hapū. So in the end, well it’s still very real
today, there’s a really poor relationship among the majority of <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki with their actual hapū –
Interviewee #5b
.....................
what concerned us most was the ability still to be hapū and our very identity was being altered by the
Crown constructs which were visited upon us and of course, we ended up looking like idiots with
internal squabbles. We didn’t want to buy into that. That wasn’t where we were at. All we wanted was
the identity of hapū to remain as they had been for hundreds of, you know, since the time of the Treaty
– Interviewee #5b
.....................
at this stage Rongomaiwahine was up to Kahungunu because of the Fisheries Settlement, you know, so
at the time, still a lot like that, but so there we were in the boardroom and we get hysterics from the
Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated board members, ‘All you want is money!’ They didn’t hear what we had to
say, but we wanted the opportunity to carry on fishing, you know, in a contemporary context based on
the fact that the <strong>mana</strong>whenua is what our iwi incorporated gained the fishery asset out of and
whanaunga (?) we still haven’t changed that position, but the Coastal Hapū Collective went in again to
the boardroom, got drummed out a second time – Interviewee #5b
.....................
the definition that’s in the Act, that’s a good definition, but if you were to go to each hapū through
Aotearoa, each hapū would probably give you a different definition of what kaitiakitanga is to be. ... So
in a general, generic term, it’s a fine definition, but now, it’s exactly what [Interviewee #18b] said, it’s
become THE definition – Interviewee #14b
.....................
At Maketu it’s really hard because when they diverted our river from the estuary the whole ecology
changed so we lost a lot of the tikanga that revolved around it you know, so that’s why we’re so much
into wanting restoration research and like the research that we’ve done on tikanga that we have got still
and putting it into the schools and teaching another generation. I even found that when they put rāhui
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on for a long time at Maketu, people started forgetting things. It doesn’t take much to forget. So I don’t
know if that answers your questions. It’s really hard. ... I know the mātauranga Māori of our estuary
goes the respect and the restoration and that connectedness again with it. So they won’t ever let our
estuary get like that again, the next generation – Interviewee #15b
.....................
The influence if you’re at a post-Treaty stage, you seem to have a lot more influence in those processes
because you’ve (seen that engagement?) versus the ones who are just going there and it’s like pushing
uphill. There’s a whole gradient going on amongst iwi in that respect –Interviewee #18b
.....................
we really thought that we were getting headways ahead you know, because they were coming, Ministry
of Fisheries, this was an official group formed through the Ministry of Fisheries and we really thought
that we were getting headways ahead with fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plans – not even! They just wanted
to come and say, ‘Well you know, this is what we,’ and they let us stay in their flash motels you know,
and gave us a nice guy, but at the end of the day, you know, we actually mandated this fisheries
<strong>mana</strong>gement plan, well we all supported it as a model that we could all use and, ‘We want you to now
resource it. Try it out as a pilot.’ They basically made us all cry in the room to say, ‘Well you know, we
can’t do that. Sorry.’ You know, it was really, really terrible – Interviewee #29b
.....................
We’re still in the same position though, in terms of resourcing. We’ve still got Ngāti Kahungunu Iwi
Incorporated and the Asset Holding Company, they’re still getting resourced over here to do their mahi
and Kahungunu, the Coastal Hapū Collective was still struggling along with no resources. We were doing
all the work – Interviewee #29b
.....................
the awa you’re talking about, when that was taken in ’66, ... the iwi got a huge kick in the guts, huge kick
in the guts, and were basically knocked to their knees and it’s only been in the last, you know, since our
environmental process that we’ve been able to actually get up and start to move from reactive to
proactive ... but that was figuratively and literally kicked in the guts and it’s taken (three?) years for the
iwi to recover from it spiritually – Interviewee #18b
.....................
Interviewee #29b – I can give you an example, even one of our Nannies who couldn’t eat, she had a bit
of a, we found out later that she had a bit of a throat infection that was affecting her whole wellbeing
and so my husband went out and, ‘Oh she just needs a feed of pipi,’ you know, because that’s what we
do when we get unwell and, of course, yes, it brought her appetite back slowly and actually healed that
(mamai?) that was in her so.
Interviewer #2 – I find that all beautiful and inspiring. It’s –
Interviewee #29b – I think we forget about those because we get hung up in the process of you know,
trying to meet the needs of the RMA, trying to meet the needs of what government of the day is trying
to achieve ... but we forget about who we are really as, I mean, just as a human being. We forget about
those simple things that we all take for granted but we all know they’re there when they’re needed,
yeah.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – So originally Rakaipaaka was very supportive of that Te Kupenga a Maui forum?
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Interviewee #29 – Yeah, we were until you know, we kept going thinking that we were going to get
some sort of support for our vision anyway for our customary fishing area and that was basically to find
out about what the forum was trying to achieve, which we thought was a great thing because it was
going to help us get a fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan together and it was going to bring the resources. It
was going to support you know, maybe into commercial fishing, but just we had a meeting down in
Masterton and this Ministry of Fisheries people all came. It was beautiful. You were on the scene,
[Interviewer #1], and then all of a sudden we said, ‘Well you know, okay, we’ve got a Rongomaiwahine
people that have bought a draft plan. We see it fitting into what the Ministry of Fisheries is trying to
achieve through their Fisheries Deed of Settlement or Fisheries Bill,’ and then we asked, ‘Is this going to
be resourced?’ and then they said, ‘No, there isn’t going to be any resources. Not to Rongomaiwahine.’
And yet they had the vote, they had the people that were able to do it. They had the plan. … They had
all of it but the Ministry of Fisheries couldn’t, they didn’t say why they just said that resources weren’t
available.
Interviewer #1 – How did that make you feel when
Interviewee #29 – Well, we got pretty pissed off [laughs] It did, it made us feel like we wasted like four
meetings, four meetings, four months of travel you know, expectation. We were overwhelmed that
there was finally we had a link straight to government, straight to the government organisation that was
going to help us
.....................
so is it that the Ministry of Fisheries that have got a resource there or is it that iwi/hapū have to look for
their own resource elsewhere? Is it just that the Ministry of Fisheries are meeting with us just to say,
‘Well these are the things that we have to achieve, realistically we haven’t got any resource to help you
get to where you have, is it that iwi/hapū have to go to kaitiaki, have to go to Te Ihu Kai<strong>moana</strong>, have to
go to Aotea Fisheries, have to go to you know, where do we go to if it’s not them? – Interviewee #29
.....................
Coastal Hapū had never had any resources. They did <strong>mana</strong>ge to secure a project with Te Puni Kōkiri to
do some consultation with all the coastal hapū from Turakirae to Paritu. That’s all they’ve been
resources with and so that was just happening then this other fisheries forum came up Te Kupenga so
we thought, ‘Oh, Ministry of Fisheries must have something to help us.’ So we jumped on there too,
thinking, ‘Okay we’re not going to push this one aside. We’re still going to go with them as well.’ … but
now we’ve sort of disregarded the Ministry of Fisheries model because it’s bullshit - Interviewee #29
.....................
Rakaipaaka got no information, no resourcing, nothing at all, Te Rūnanga o Rakaipaaka is an iwi, a hapū
or whatever. Nothing comes from the government, nothing from anywhere. No resources, mātauranga
or scientific research or pūtea. It’s guesswork, fisherman goes out and says, ‘Oh the fishing was good
today or it wasn’t. That’s all. That’s all it is – Interviewee #30
.....................
Interviewee #29 – I think that that’s where if Ngāti Rakaipaaka succeeds, that’s Kahungunu Ki Uta Ki Tai,
we did here Coastal Hapū Collective members saying Coastal Hapū Collective have to meet so that we
can say from our, the hapū perspective things like what [Interviewee #30]’s saying, you know, we’re still
getting nothing.
Interviewee #30 - Ngāti Kere are very frustrated
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.....................
Interviewer #1 – So is it fair to say there’s a little bit of tension between what Rakaipaaka wants for its
people and for the health of the fishery and the awa and what’s, I guess, coming from Ngāti Kahungunu
Incorporated?
Interviewee #30 – You wouldn’t say tension because a lot of Rakaipaaka are not aware of, they don’t
really think that much, not really interested much, but most of them would be against that surf clams
thing, but a lot of people are not aware of anything really.
Interviewer #1 – So people are not very aware of what Kahungunu does on behalf of them?
Interviewee #30 – No they just see it as 10, 15 most local at the hui, or 10, I suppose, Hau kainga from
Rakaipaaka been informed, not a lot of us could’ve been. They changed the date of the bloody hui …
and the venue.
Interviewer #1 – So it throws people a bit, doesn’t it? People get a bit hōhā.
Interviewee #29 – You have to run a wee bit of strategies but I still think that we’re holding onto
something. It’s still, the Coastal Hapū Collective haven’t gone away from what they were originally set
up for. I mean, they have to be there to keep real like [Interviewee #30]’s saying.
Interviewer #1 – They get nothing from nobody, is that right?
Interviewee #29 – No, exactly
.....................
Interviewee #29 – It’s that they’re able, they always make sure that Rakaipaaka is in there to travel, like
they gave us money to get to Porangahau because they wanted us there because we were one of the
originals that set it up so they’re going to give [Interviewee #30] and I travel money to go. [X] and [X] are
always saying, ‘We’ve got to have you there.’
Interviewer #1 – So they’ll give you a petrol voucher?
Interviewee #29 – They’ll give us some petrol vouchers, yeah.
Interviewer #1 – That really doesn’t cover the cost though, does it?
Interviewee #29 – Not really, so if the car breaks down, get a flat tire, that’s still like extra cost, yeah, so
we just hope and pray we’re going to get there and back on whatever they give us-
.....................
Interviewee #30 – Yeah well when Ngā Hiwi brought that scientist fellow, I don’t know where the hell he
was from, Pakeha fellow and we asked him-
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #30 – Older fellow, older
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #29 – Yeah, yeah
Interviewee #30 – And you know, he bring back another report or follow-up, he never sent us a copy of
the report and then he never sent us any more-
Interviewer #1 – So no follow-up?
Interviewee #30 – No, no
Interviewee #29 – Absolutely nothing
.....................
Interviewer #1 – There’s a lot of Rakaipaaka that don’t live in Nuhaka is that right?
Interviewee #29 – Yeah
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Interviewer #1 – Like chasing work in Heretaunga or Sydney or Wellington
Interviewee #30 – Yeah, yeah
Interviewee #29 – We don’t stop them from participating, but when they try to overrun what they don’t
know what’s going on in the community, that’s when it becomes a huge effect on-
Interviewer #1 – There’s a lot of tension … the ones in the big city folk with the-
Interviewee #29 – Yeah, well we need their knowledge. We need their knowledge-
.....................
So it was really then in one sense we were able to continue with our cultural practises, but it also taught
us that we had to do wrong to maintain that <strong>mana</strong> and more importantly, it was okay to do so –
Interviewee #21
.....................
Interviewee #20b – But isn’t there limitations though on what we deal with in terms of our Westminster
model? And Kahungunu touched on the terms of reference are they’re actually grounded in a different
world.
Interviewee #21 – ... we have an experience with tikanga, whereas when you look at the models are that
are regulating our kai<strong>moana</strong> now, it’s (turu?) so once you’re looking at tikanga uses (turu?) It’s law
versus tradition and sometimes those two intercept and other times they don’t touch.
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Helpers; Enablers
Who/what has helped the process of using government mechanisms?
Summary of key points:
Most interviewees named individuals that were helpers, not government agencies, showing
their relationship is with the individuals themselves and not the agencies
Central government; MinFish; OTS; DoC; Environment Waikato; NIWA; AFL; Specific Individuals
at MeF; Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong>; Māori MPs; local and central government; the Minister; Wairua
District Council; DoC (local staff only were helpful, head office was very difficult to work with);
TPK; EBoP; [X]; Te Arawa Lakes Trust; Far North District Council; specific individuals from MFish;
Regional councils;
These helpers provided funding, training, open discussions, support , building relationships,
helping with surveys, helping to develop fish plans or iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plans; negotiating with
Crown; providing scientific advice;
Paepae Rangatira (Paepae whakapakari) relationship protocol in Ngā Rauru Deed of Settlement
allowing a direct line to the Ministers
Regional councils give accord to things Māori because they were born out of the RMA
Quotes:
Central government, that is just to say (?) In terms of conservation, Ministry of Fisheries, yeah they
were keen to come and have a talk to us, what those extended mechanisms were-– Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - But OTS would have helped cover some of your costs and things as well.
Interviewee #1– Yeah, OTS within our terms of negotiation, that’s available online as well and you’ll see
in there that there are certain milestones that we needed to meet and we were paid out according to
those milestones.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what level of support did you get from either the District Council or MFish or DoC or
anyone?
Interviewee #2– At that stage I think the biggest probably we got was really from MFish and that was
our people that were in there like [X]. He was very supportive ...
Interviewer #1 – You’d mentioned [X], [X] helped a bit?
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Interviewee #2– Yeah, she was quite good actually. It was her, [X]. At that stage, there was Forbes, the
<strong>Mana</strong>hira, but I think the key one there was [X]. [X] was the one ...
.....................
Interviewee #28 - To be fair to the (?) without [X] and them, we had, there were only limited in their
support they can give as an MFish person, as a whanau member. It's really hard for them as well, but
they continued to try and help move us along. They've actually been amazing, (?) and Uncle [X] and
them. I know that they've been out there, they've done everything they possibly, if we ask for
something, they've done it, and they're getting pulled from the other end as well and being asked not to
support these applications like their positions wider therefore so I think it's been really hard for them.
Interviewee #2 - At the start, it was left up to us to decide which avenue you wanted to go down and we
decided mātaitai. So they supported that. In order for us to get it, they took us through the steps in
order to get it in part of that was through Melanie and other avenues. So they helped us a lot.
.....................
we <strong>mana</strong>ged to negotiate with the Minister that we wanted to carry on with his team. So he made a
decision that he'll keep in negotiation going with his foreshore and seabed and apart from that, there's
been site visits where he has come up, so we are developing a good relationship. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Yeah and that may have been as a consequence of being involved in foreshore and seabed. I don't know
whether you get the same access doing this is when you are with OTS, but [X] obviously has been of
great assistance for us, in terms meeting with the Ministers. ... She’s the chief negotiator for the Crown
in terms of our negotiations and she seems to show a lot of willingness to help us with our negotiations.
We know that her time is busy, she is a great help. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewee #3- The Wairua Council are very supportive because there are a lot of Crown land that was
taken for use some years back that are now, they would be (able?) for Pahauwera, were taken by, what
an Act. Do you know the Act?
Interviewer #1 – Public Works Act?
Interviewee #3– Yeah, Public Works Act and now they're available to return, for return and that's our
dealings with the Wairua District Council so there's quite a few bits of land that the Wairua District
Council are making available and we have concerns about the Waihua River and I think Wairua was very
confident, help us sort of look after, help us with those concerns.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Okay and you mentioned the Department of Conservation were fairly rigid and of-
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Interviewee #3- We get on well with the local staff. I mean I must admit I've got no problems with the
local staff. It's just that the main person we deal with in our negotiations from the head office is very
difficult ...
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Have Ministry Fishery representatives or NIWA representatives helped or been
supportive of that surveying data because that's really important?
Interviewee #4- I guess it's supportive in a way of just letting us do what we want. That's supportive.
.....................
so support from MFish, yes, we went out of budget in the original Ki Uta Ki Tai strategic planning phase
so MFish were awesome in contributing. Their original budget was $100 Grand. There was 25 offered
and accepted by MFish to work on <strong>moana</strong>, Asset Holding Company and NKII. Because we went over
budget then we’ve approached other people in some capacity and AFL has offered to assist on the
grounds that it’s the hapū who invite them onboard and AFL are ready to rock to assist. – Interviewee #5
.....................
[X], mainly [X], he was very helpful and you know he would come out and then we’d go to the (?)
beaches and pointing out which was in the mātaitai, which wasn't and the reason why and all that sort
of thing. – Interviewee #6
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what was the level of support you got from local government people?
Interviewee #6– No good (except for what we were?) talking about with [X]
Interviewer #1 – [X] was the man?
Interviewee #6 - Yeah and there was a-
Interviewee#7 – There was extension services
Interviewee #6- I think there was a lady from Wellington too,
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #6– Yeah there was
Interviewee #7– A little bit
Interviewee #6 – Yeah there was a lady that would come up, fly to Napier from the Ministry-
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #6 – Yeah
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Interviewee #7– Or [X] She was from (spatial?) She used to work for [X]
Interviewee #6 – Yeah and then she went overseas, [X].
Interviewer #1 - So was [X] quite useful?
Interviewee #7– She went to DoC
Interviewee #6 – Oh to DoC, yeah they were all very good, but the main, the key person was [X].
.....................
[X] started meeting with us and explaining our roles and responsibilities and our mandatory obligations
in completing our forms. – Interviewee #8
.....................
Interviewee #8- So what I learned as we proceeded down this track of wanting to rebuild was that there
were groups who wanted to have relationships with us and Ministry of Fisheries was with us right from
the beginning ... Environment Waitato(?) were making contact and wanting to have some discussion on
how they could support. Department of Conservation were wanting to engage. I've also got contacted
by NIWA who were wanting to engage as well. Those are probably the three groups that I found were
knocking on my door and wanting to have some discussions about how we might want to work
together.
Interviewer #1 – Did things evolve further than just a discussion with those groups than a knock on the
door?
Interviewee #8– Yep, what came out of those was that they informed us of any activity that they were
going to be doing on the harbour. So they kept us informed as to what they were doing. When, for
example, they were spraying... they would let us know so that we could let whanau know if they were
wanting to go and get shellfish not to do that even though it was publicly, even though there were big
public notices, they let us know, that sort of stuff. I think that's really all. They were just wanting to
build relationships and seeing how we would all work together, especially Māori sectors of those
departments.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So did the Environment Waikato do a water testing or do anything in terms of riverbank
restoration?
Interviewee #8– No, they didn't and they didn't because we were still new, we didn't know what we
wanted.
Interviewer #1 – Have they attended any committee meetings at all?
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Interviewee #8– They have, yes, they have done and they've asked to be notified when we are having
them so that they can attend and share whatever it is that might be going on and how we might be able
to work together, so yes, they have been.
.....................
Interviewee #10– [X].
Interviewee #9 – Yes, [X].
Interviewer #1 – [X] and [X].
Interviewee #9 – We worked with them. They were wonderful.
Interviewer #1– Yeah they are wonderful guys.
Interviewee #9 – They were wonderful people.
Interviewer #1 – Maumahara Consultants
Interviewee #10 – Yes
Interviewee #9– Maumahara, that’s right.
Interviewee #10– They do maumahara education now.
Interviewer #1 – They do kaitiaki training
Interviewee #10 – Yeah they do. They do all the kaitiaki training for the Ministry of Fisheries.
Interviewer #1 –Well sought after people.
Interviewee #10 – They’re on a good-
Interviewee #9– Good on them because whatever they’re doing, they deserve it because they were both
very, very hard workers, very obliging,
.....................
Interviewee #9 - Well, we did sell crayfish and MeF came in again to put the water in, ‘Hang on, you
need to have a licence to sell crayfish and you’ve got to have big,’ What was it? ‘You’ve got to sell big
crayfish.’ First of all, Tauranga stopped us from selling crayfish and then we wrote a letter to the
Minister of Fisheries, who told Tauranga to back off us.
Interviewer #1 – Tauranga who, council or Tauranga MFish?
Interviewee#9 – MeF, Tauranga MeF, because anything Whitianga couldn’t cope with, they went to
Tauranga, but of course, we had in Auckland, it was good. Now there was a fellow called [X] there. Now
he was really very-
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Interviewer #1 –The old fellow
Interviewee #9 – Now he was very good.
Interviewee #10 –Yeah he was my mate. I used to use him quite a bit.
Interviewer #1 – So there were particular individuals inside of agencies that could see where you were
going.
Interviewee #9 – Yes, it was just the compliance boys that came around in the uniforms and guns, there
were guns blazing that I didn’t like. I objected to them and they got nothing.
.....................
A lot of people thought around the peninsula where we lived that we were running that farm on Māori
money, believe you me there was not one cent of Māori money put into the actual farm project, with
the exception of Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> who paid for our education– Interviewee #9
.....................
We knew what was contained in our protocols, in our fish protocols. We didn't necessarily understand it
in depth so that took a certain amount of maturing of the relationship between us and our MFish people
on the ground. We were in constant consultation with them. – Interviewee #11
.....................
we had some great discussions with ones like [X]and you too, I think, [X] and (Te Taihua uru?) of
(Fora/forum?) when you guys come along. – Interviewee #11
.....................
in our Deed of Settlement there's this Paepae Rangatira, (paepae whakapakari?) relationship protocol.
Paepae Rangatira allows Ngā Rauru Rangatira to meet with the Crown’s Rangatira annually. The
objective of that protocol is to talk about the health of the relationship under the Treaty and also to
discuss issues of importance, both for the Crown and for Ngā Rauru. ... we had a direct line, so to speak,
to Ministers. – Interviewee #11
.....................
I've got to take my hat off to [X], who's very good at designing such protocols. So [X] was really the
architect of Paepae Rangatira, Paepae (whakapakari?) that allows us direct access to political things.
Also we are not (overly?) situated. We're very close. (Wanonga?) ties with (Tirianga?) and most of the
Māori MPs anyway, so yeah, they are all helpful. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Bring in the great advice that we had in the likes of [X] from MFish, [X] to a lesser extent, but the good
policy writers, plus some of our own guys and the whanau that we had was mainly our marae and hapū.
– Interviewee #11
.....................
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MFish were great, MFish were great for the development of the Te Pātaka o Tangaroa fish plan or iwi
<strong>mana</strong>gement plan, whatever they call it. ... So your question about how much support that we got from
local government and central government, quite a, as much as we wanted actually and I just think that
sometimes iwi don't know how to ask or what to ask for but we were pretty clear about what we
needed. – Interviewee #11
.....................
I just thank [X] for being so tenacious and patient but I do know that once we did get to meet we made
plenty of progress in a short time and one thing that I know and [X] would agree with, is that in terms of
developing a plan, we kept it away from the politicians of the iwi– Interviewee #11
.....................
Interviewer #1 – Did TPK resource you to develop those plans?
Interviewee #13– TPK have paid us, yeah, they have, actually. What they pay, what TPK paid for is a
project <strong>mana</strong>ger and some project outputs. I can’t remember the first year of funding. I think it was
about 80K the first year of funding. This last round of funding was around 124 and I’m not sure what the
next round of funding will be about.
.....................
if there’s an EBoP meeting around water, we’ll get invites and then we can pass it on to our CEO. We’re
on a first name basis with the CEOs, not so much the CEOs, but the GMs and then their environmental
people, field people, as well so there’s Andy Brewer who’s in contact with us around the lake strategies.
– Interviewee #14
.....................
Interviewee #15- I'm sure it will end up Environment Bay of Plenty because you know, that's in their
kaupapa to do it, but Western Bay, as part of their commitment have got a plan developed, but I think
their idea for regenerating the raupō is so that they can use it to put their water from the sewerage
system in. So I think they have got a different agenda. They're going to use it for filtering their water
but no, that's the Te Arawa Lakes Trust, they're prepared to donate big time-
Interviewer #1 – That’s generous
Interviewee #15- It is generous. They could have drained that. It's a degraded swamp. They could have
drained it and put in (?) or anything else. It's a huge area and the whole community benefits from that.
.....................
the other thing we did was put in a mātaitai which covered from (Tahua Otuku?) all the way to Waikare
and the other mātaitai covered the whole of (Paimea?). Now about 4 or 5 layers going around and
around in circles, it came up and it was [X]. It was through his efforts we finally got it actually. So we
owe a lot to that one person from (Ngāpuhi?). Kia ora [X], but he was the one that helped us and we got
it in and it took six years. – Interviewee #16
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.....................
one of the things that our elders told us is we could never beat the Ministry of Fisheries from the
outside. They said a lot of people are going to misinterpret us and because the new kai<strong>moana</strong>
regulations came out, these old fellows said, ‘We need to get in there and work within the law and get
what we want. ... At that time we had help from the Ministry of Fisheries which was the Māori liaison
officers and that was [X]. From Nelson we had [X] and [X]- oh gee I forgot her last name – they were
really a good help... – Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewee #16- ‘Go and see this fellow and if you want to close anything down they’ll put the signs up
for you.’ I said, ‘Does it cost any money?’ He said, ‘No, no, no.’ He’ll find the money to put the signs up.
I said, ‘Oh good. So will the Ministry.’ So yeah, we got a bit of hell from talking to him. We never closed
anything of course, but we just told him what we were doing. Again our biggest helpers at that time was
[X] that gave us a good hand.
Interviewer #1 – So MFish did offer to have some guys to help coach you through the application?
Interviewee#16 – Yeah, MFish had [X] and [X]. The ones that came after me had no help. They were
terrible. In fact, they promoted it more than they did. I mean, the people they had after [X] came was
[X]. They were brilliant. They got everything I needed to know. They gave me a list of what I needed to
do; used [X] as a liaison officer that took me around and I saw the hapūs, got all the <strong>tangata</strong> whenua
stuff done, we think. One of the first things that helped us was [X] when we used their boat. They had a
lot of good fellows that were in compliance at that time. They had a fellow that was, their boss was [X]something-
Interviewer #1 – [X]? [X]?
Interviewee #16– No. [X] or something. He was the team leader, this other guy. Oh he was excellent. I
mean he’s finished now, but he was terrific. All we did was write him a letter. He gave us three of his
compliance people and we did a research in part of our area, (?) out on the boat. They helped with the
diving. They said, ‘Oh there’s some here, some there.’ And we did a quick survey on our way back and
while we were doing that they were checking pots. They were doing compliance stuff, but we were on
the boat and they were giving us a hand. What was that guy’s name? [X]-something. Before that [X].
Well we were both there, but this guys was, he was the team leader. He was excellent. And he was
more than willing to help with customary fishing and we were more than willing to help him catch
crooks, actually. The first ten people they prosecuted was all related to me, but the thing with it was
that we had a good relationship-
.....................
Interviewee #16- I like McPhee. He’ll tell you straight up, straight to your face. That’s why I liked
Heatley the Minister, before he became Minister.
Interviewer #1 – Straight-talking?
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Interviewee #16– That’s what we want, someone who’ll say, ‘No, why?’ And then I’ll say, ‘Well, how can
I do that?’ ‘Well you see these people and then maybe you can.’ There’s never a definite ‘no,’ so you
accommodate whatever it is to get it. Well those ones, you accommodated them and then you were
waiting for the next 20 bloody years.
.....................
Interviewee #17- Oh I think it was a funded program. It was about eight grand, I think he cost us in the
end.
Interviewer #1 – Eight grand, the Regional Council or the District Council picked up a lion's share of that?
Interviewee#17 – Yes, they did.
Interviewer #1 – Fantastic. So that's quite generous really, of one of the District Councils to actually
offer up a resource like that. Normally you get their in-house people that are kind of focused on the inhouse.
Interviewee#17 – Yeah, no it was and I think also the Council needed some direction as well, when that
happened they needed to understand because I think, to be fair to them, there was probably a lot of
objections from Māori that weren't always substantive and I think by having a plan gave them some
boundaries they could work within. So I think they were seeking an outcome that would help them as
well.
.....................
[Far North District Council] took it on board and they wrote it into their annual plan, I think, but it did
create another burden for them in that once we started to tell the world about our hapū plan, it
triggered a lot of interest from other hapū and all of a sudden there was more hapū plans being
developed, only for the Council to realise that they never had the resources to support so many hapū
plans ... – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewer #1 - And I'll put [X] as team leader.
Interviewee #17– Yeah, she was the driver, really
Interviewer #1 – The driver for Ngāti Kuta?
Interviewee #17– Yes
.....................
No, MinFish are good, [X] and [X] in particular are good in the early days and [X] since then, we can't
complain, not at all. In fact, we've had some good support from MinFish, very good support. In fact,
one of them was [X] from Nelson, [X] something, scientist? – Interviewee #17
.....................
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Interviewee #17- Yeah, could be, she was bloody good.
Interviewer #1 – Yeah [X] skinny, looks like a running person, yes, [X]. She would've provided quite a lot
of scientific advice or she has the ability to provide scientific advice. Probably, she would have found
there's not a lot of local inshore stock fish data. It's kind of on a bigger scale, isn't it? That's the
challenge of fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement.
Interviewee #17– Yeah and then, I mean, fish counts is something that we need to establish but that's
on a local basis
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So the Far North Council, the Ministry of Fisheries people, it doesn't sound like they put
up many barriers at all. In fact they've been very useful.
Interviewee #17- Not at all, yeah they have. They have supported it. I think it's important to know that
we are just weekend warriors too and we can only do so much, you know, we only come together once
a month. It relies a lot on voluntary work.
.....................
you’ll find regional councils are brilliant because they were born out of the RMA, which required them
to give accord to things Māori so from the outset they have been open and embracing things Māori.
That’s part of their institutionalised philosophy. – Interviewee #18
.....................
the biggest thing is that we’re on the radar and they come and see us and they know they have to come
and see us and they’re not told to come and see us, they come and see us and that’s huge movement
from a place where we would not even be given the decency of a knock on the door, I mean, little steps,
little steps. Yeah it took 150 years to get here. It’s going to take a bit of time to turn the waka around
and go the other way, you know. – Interviewee #18
.....................
that’s where we’re lucky, this generation, we are able to talk with the authorities because they do have
a set of ears now through those processes such, through the RMA and things like that that have
accorded some rights to our ways. It still could be improved, but it’s better than the situation our
tūpuna were in– Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #19 – you had a guy there in the fisheries and he was bloody good, what the hell, Māori
guy, really good, same sort of job you were in.
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #19 – [X]
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Interviewer #1 – He’s with Eastern Bays now isn’t he?
Interviewee #19 – With the iwis, yeah ... He was the most helpful person. He was the most helpful
person, other than the guys sitting in the office. You know, he’d talk about stuff and he’d say, ‘Oh
[Interviewee #19] these people, they’ve got some stuff here, but they had to come late and you
wouldn’t issue them a permit.’ I said, ‘No, no, you know, dark time is out of time, but if they come and
saw me in the morning, I’d issue them.’ He said, ‘Would you mind doing it you know,’ ‘Oh, okay, not a
problem, but you know, after five o’clock, that’s my time you know,’
.....................
Interviewee #19– I used to go along with the guy from, what the hell is his name, from Auckland. He
was one of the bosses of the Ministry of Fish and he was right behind us what we were doing. He
actually helped set us up before I came on the scene, this guy and then something happened and he
backed away and went on out on his own, creating his own work
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #19 – Not [X], but I’ve done a lot of work with [X]
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #19 – [X], he was the man that gave us a heap of help. [X] was damn good too, you know,
whenever there’s study work to be done in this area on pipi beds, I’m the first one he calls, you know,
‘(jack us up a team?) let’s do it one weekend,’ ‘Yep.’ Yeah [X] is, what was the girl’s name, his offsider?
But [X]’s in Perth now. He started up this [Company X] thing, sets it all up, then he buggers off to Perth,
the prick!
Interviewer #1 – Got [X]
Interviewee #19 – [X] runs it now, yeah, yeah , so then [X] bugs off to Perth on another contract-
Interviewer #1 – So for a period of time it sounds like the taiāpure committee had all the things like good
support, body networks,
Interviewee #19 – Yes, they had it all
.....................
Interviewee #19 – We had it all, yep, we had it all. Still had no funding [laughs], still had no funding you
know, we’re just living from hand-to-mouth, but yep, we had it all and we was going for the second
stage and but it all sort of fell to pieces. Yeah I think, I think, yeah, when we lost [X] and we lost [X]-
Interviewer #1 – They take with them more than just a job. They take their relationships they’ve forged,
all the momentum they’ve created because they’ve got a good feel for what’s working and they push
things along.
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Interviewee #19 – And this girl, [X], you know, she does her best, but her hands are tied because you
know, she’s Ministry of Fish people so she can only do so much and she’s been a big help with the
taiāpure in the same way that [X] is but only in a lower sort of scale and sometimes, you know, she’s got
just stay the course,
.....................
Interviewer #1– You’ve described as sort of a- do you feel very empowered or do you see potential to be
more greatly empowered with the development of the AIP and, ultimately, the Deed of Settlement?
Interviewee#22 – I feel that we are working towards sharing the decision-making, which I guess is the
power you talk about and I think that there’s a long way to go in terms of our, talk to the Crown as our,
and the people of New Zealand as our Treaty partners. There’s a long way to go for that to happen, but
I believe that we’re actually on the road towards power-sharing, but we have to be ever-vigilant because
it’s not going to be given to us. We have to make sure that we tick all the boxes and that we’re able to
prove to the Crown that not only do we want to have this power-sharing, but we have a right to it and I
think then we’ll start to see some difference in terms of conservation within our, on our lands, in our
waterways and in the sea because nowhere is, in my view, is Māori principles, Māori tikanga and Māori
kawa is taken into consideration when making laws, bylaws, toward the conservation of our food source
and we think it’s important, I think it’s important because originally before colonisation we were the
ultimate, consummate conservationists.
.....................
So there’s funding comes from different streams. There is specific funding from the Crown to the River
Authority and that funds the ongoing operations of the River Authority and that’s to the tune of about a
million dollars a year. So that has to fund all of the participants, the representatives and the secretariat
and the years, the five-yearly review of the vision strategy. ...When that study’s finished, we’ll have
discussions with you so that we’ll hear what you can bring to the table. So there’s funding for those
structures and that cleanup fund and the same, the members of the River Authority Act is the corporate
trustee for the cleanup fund, so they act as the cleanup Trust. It’s not a separate organisation. And
then there’s specific funding to each iwi and that’s to the tune of 30 million dollars each over 30 years
for capacity capability funding. So that’s, as you’re sitting here today, at the Raukawa Iwi Authority
headquarters. That’s to keep our team going, our environmental team so we can fulfil our obligations
under the deed. As I said earlier, Waikato-Tainui also received a further 50 million dollars for river
restoration projects on top of their 30 million and they received 20 million dollars for the endowment
college at (?) as yet none of the other tribes have received any of that sort of restoration funding. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
I think it’s improving, it’s improving and there’s been a lot of meetings taking place within the
community of Maketu and you have other little groups there, the Bird people and you know, they got
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that many committees in Maketu for such a small place and people have their passion in looking after
the environment. Maketu taiāpure is looking after, we have a member and his name is [X] who does a
lot of work on his own and he tried to get the community involved and the taiāpure involved and after,
they call it the borrow pits up the Kaituna- ... he’s very pro-active you know, in what he does and
passionate about what he does ... He also plays a big part in the recreational fisheries at a high level, ...
the borrow pits is where he’s, he (?) a breeding ground for whitebait, but it’s that bad that the eels have
been a nuisance to him, you know, as far as trying to making sure that you know, the environment there
is to help the white bait to breed and that. So he’s an interesting person to talk to and about the
taiāpure and we just let him do his own thing. We try and help him financially, you know, to do some of
his work, either if it’s petrol vouchers or those sort of things. He does his own applications for his jobs
to the EBoP or council and he gets council involved, Western Bay and he’s got a good relationship so
he’s, and he wants to do all his projects along the river and where land owners are willing for him to do
that and he’s even got the land owners to help fence off those areas so the stock don’t come down. So
yeah, no he’s really good, more so than some of our own Māori members. ... we’ve been trying to find
some work force to come and help him to do that. ... he’s done a lot of replanting as well and he’s done
a magic job. He’s got a good Power Point presentation on that and what he’s done. We do our own
surveys on kai<strong>moana</strong>, like the mussels and the paua and we’ve done a few of those so we’ve got all that
on record. ... and we’ve been fortunate, students from the Polytech, from Bay of Plenty Polytech, they,
we have a person called [X] that was his role and <strong>mana</strong>gement could be a bit better but at least he’s
<strong>mana</strong>ged to get students to come out and do the surveys and they do all the diving and we just provide
some resources for them – Interviewee #26
.....................
we have a good relationship with you know, the compliance people, all of the Ministry of Fisheries,
there’s always different paces at times that turn up, but no, we’ve had a, [X] did a huge job, really, in the
role that he played, not only for Maketu taiāpure, but for the whole of the coastal area. I mean he
broke down a lot of barriers. ... broke down a lot of barriers and he was a good operator, actually. ... You
know, he was able to break those barriers down and I got a couple of committee members that moaned
all the time, you know, about the Ministry of Fisheries and has a crack at the [X], has a crack at the
compliance and that’s [X], been there all his life and he knows that coastline inside out.– Interviewee
#26
.....................
I don’t think [MFish] know we’ve got one [a plan] and to be fair to them, because of staff change, when
[X] was there, he knew that we had a plan, actually that raises something next time one or the others,
because they change, you know, this guy that we work with at the moment, [X], don’t really know him
but he (?seems?) you know, he seems to be a good guy. – Interviewee #26
.....................
There is a guy that comes from Maketu ... He’s, you know, he’s got his skipper’s licence, plenty
experience. At least we got that person that we can call on and he’d be about 65 now. He’s actually
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one of the directors on our company, (Pou?) Te Arawa fisheries. Interviewee - #26
.....................
Interviewee #27 – Well thankfully, we do get our support from, financial is from Te Arawa fishing body
with (kotai I tanga?) and support we get, we do get a lot of support from Waikato University with the
Marine Biology students and whatever … Poly Tech as well. Maketu primary school and that’s one big
help.
Interviewer #1– Okay, so what’s the relationship like between the taiāpure committee and (Te ku taihi?)
or and Te Arawa Fisheries?
Interviewee #27– Oh, very good, very good. We don’t have any issues. I, personally, don’t have an
issue.
.....................
Interviewee #5b – Yeah, strategic plan and we <strong>mana</strong>ged to get an MFish official at the time to get our
pūtea rolling so, and [Interviewee #20b] was that official-
Interviewee #20b – I can’t take all the credit because [X] was moneybags
Interviewee #5b – Yeah, well 10k and then –
Interviewee #29b – 10k
Interviewee #5b – Yeah, well that was something. We hadn’t had anything before that.
Interviewer #2 – You got 10k to put together the –
Interviewee #5b – To get us rolling
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Legal Mechanisms Attempted to Use by Iwi
Utilising Foreshore and Seabed protocols for iwi/hapū interests; create strategic plans, annual
plans, hapū <strong>mana</strong>gement plans; iwi environmental <strong>mana</strong>gement plans; land use plans;
developmental protocol plans; customary tools such as mātaitai to ban commercial fishing &
replenish stock (chosen because it’s more flexible & gave the community by-laws); groupings of
marae and hapū pursuant to Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regs; applications with MFish to transplant kai; rotating
rāhui; become mandated iwi orgs; forming inclusive hapū collective groups; land-based
aquaculture projects; 186 closures; set up mātaitai committees; Fish plans; Deeds of Settlement
provided resources, money; the development of Trusts after Treaty Settlement; taiāpure to
preserve kai & regain control of resources; taiāpure boards; implementing estuary strategies to
restore rivers; gazettement; pātaka systems to increase availability of kai to the community;
presenting <strong>mana</strong>gement plans to councils, agencies (DoC), and Ministers to give them status;
opposing the Foreshore Act; engaging MFish and DoC using NIWA data for scientific support of
indications of loss of kai; sinking the Canterbury Friggett
Quotes:
In terms of the Foreshore and Seabed protocols, there are different protocols within there that would
recognise and provide for whanau, hapū and iwi interests. There is an environmental protocol that
deals mainly with local government and regional government. There was a conservation protocol for an
extended conservation protocol and extended fisheries mechanisms. Since we are talking about
fisheries, we’ll stick to that protocol. Contained within that protocol it actually, apart from providing
that recognition and provision for Māori to actively <strong>mana</strong>ge our coastline and fisheries within that
coastline area, it extended out to the 12-mile limit, however, we only would be given that extended
mechanism if we could prove through the courts that we had continuous contiguous use of that
foreshore and seabed, meaning that we have to prove that that land that we, the foreshore and seabed
that we are claiming, we have to prove that the land that was adjacent to or next to the foreshore and
seabed was still owned by Māori who descended from the original owners. For Te Rarawa having gone
through that exercise, in terms of Māori-owned land on the coastline, only about a third of the land is
still in Māori land title. Another third, or just over a third is in general title, probably three quarters of
that general title is now owned by non-Māori. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewee #1- 56 people including the CEO, they all got together about 2 1/2 years ago now and
created a Te Rarawa Strategic Plan of where they were aware of the trustees want Te Rarawa and their
people to be in the next five years. ... we've now produced annual plans ... Our annual plan, this is the
second year that we've had, or we're going into our second year of an operational annual plan and that's
how we are going to deliver the –
Interviewer #1 – Report back that, (āwangawanga?) where we are going, this is the step for the year-
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Interviewee#1 – All of that. Now that's at the iwi level. Now going back home to the grassroots level,
what we've gone and done is provided our marae hapū with the tools to be able to develop their hapū
<strong>mana</strong>gement plans and development plans and that provides them or the whanau on the ground the
opportunity to give direction to the rūnanga. None of those plans, within there, will be taken and they
will feed into our annual planning process as well and when the (strat?) plan’s all up for reviews then the
vision may need to change just so, to be consistent with what's all coming through.
.....................
Interviewee #2- 2001 is when I sent the letter off to [X] asking for a 186 closure ... what we looked for
was a solution in that to, or something to preserve the stocks and that's where we came up with the 186
closure. ... I sent the letter off to Ministry of Fisheries and that stage the letter was addressed to [X]
from the Ministry. We did have a confirmation that the letter had been received but over some time
period or over a period of time there was no action taken and as time went on of course, we waited and
waited and waited and it was actually [X] triggered the application again- ... For a 186, yeah. Well
virtually he wanted to find out where the application laid and during that time period, I think it was a
period of about three years looking at the dates and that, he picked up on it and said, no the application
just laid there so he asked the Ministry to do something about it, but during that time he had moved
back into the role of (?) I think that was and he was like the Māori liaison between Ministry of Fisheries
and hapū and iwi so he actually brought it to our attention that the application laid there, but at the
same time, he was doing the kaitiaki implementation with kaitiaki, setting up those and implementing
kaitiaki for the areas.
Interviewer #1– The kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations-
Interviewee#2 – Yes, the kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations. So the application for a 186 was put on hold until we
did the setup of the kaitiaki.
Interviewer #1 – And when was the decision to go into the mātaitai?
Interviewee#2 - After we had discussions with [X] and through those discussions we'd implement our
kaitiaki first and then after doing so, carry on with the mātaitai reserve overlooking options for longterm
sustainability
.....................
Interviewee #2- we looked at preservation over the area and therefore for food stocks and at that stage
there was a mātaitai in (Aotea?) –
Interviewer #1 – (Aotea?) taiāpure
Interviewee #2- Which was done in Rakanui, they had a taiāpure there and we studied the scenarios and
that and which way we’d like to go and we ended up deciding on the mātaitai which would give us bylaws
that we could, just within that area. So it was more flexible for us.
.....................
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Basically, we wanted to <strong>mana</strong>ge our area, set up our <strong>mana</strong>gement plan that dealt with that area,
basically for us to regulate our area, implement our own fisheries staff. ... we decided to set up a
committee that basically took the application completed, after this, set up committee to take it to a
draft form for our <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. Then once that's all formed and signed off, then we would elect a
committee to carry on on those regulations. So basically it was the (?) we set up a few to take it to,
initially take it to the stages where a committee would take the whole project on. – Interviewee #2
.....................
At the start, it was left up to us to decide which avenue you wanted to go down and we decided
mātaitai. So they supported that. In order for us to get it, they took us through the steps in order to get
it in part of that was through [X] and other avenues. So they helped us a lot. – Interviewee #2
.....................
Interviewee #2- The only reason that years ago one month you might go to this area, next month you
might go to that area and so on, you just have areas so that you rotate your areas so that the stock
doesn't get hit in one (?) There’s all those sort of things....
Interviewer #1...almost like a revolving rāhui-
Interviewee #2– Exactly, that was our first concept when we first talked about the 186: we closed up
part of this area and used the other area every six months, but in order to do that, we had to do analysis
on the area, what food stocks were there and we had to have a place to start from. So basically, just
where we were looking at. Once we knew what sort of food stocks were in the area, then we could
work off that over the next five years, 10 years because it's a bigger plan. It's not just about putting
something here, we wanted to have evidence behind it to say that the stocks were there for our own
good.
.....................
two formal structures were put in place as a consequence of Treaty negotiations. One was Ngāti
Pahauwera Development Trust to look after the operational side of things and the other was the Ngāti
Pahauwera Tiaki Trust, a holding trust to keep some of our reserve lands, I suppose, conservation lands
safe from interference if the Development Trust goes upside down sort of thing– Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewer #1 - And so the difference, [X], between the Tiaki Trust and the Development Trust is that is
the Development Trust going to be sort of a post-settlement entity?
Interviewee #3– Yep to look after the assets, basically the commercial side of things [cross dialogue] the
assets
Interviewer #1 – And the Tiaki Trust will be where land is vested with?
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Interviewee#3 – The lands that will be of no commercial interest just as a safe card in case the business
goes underground then those lands will be protected.
Interviewer #1 – And [X] with Ngāti Pahauwera you're currently in negotiations with the government?
Interviewee #3– Yep. At this stage now we're getting close to a Deed of Settlement. Hopefully by the
end of March we’ll have final Deed of Settlement for it and we will be travelling around the country-
.....................
Interviewee#3 - Yep, to get the entity mandated into a trustee someplace for the new entity.
Interviewer #1 – And that's where the Pahauwera Development and Tiaki Trusts come from?
Interviewee #3– Yeah, they were formally established and trustees by May, June, July of 2008, the
trustees were already in place.
.....................
You need resource consents or you need, to transplant stuff you've got to fill in a form by the Ministry of
Fisheries– Interviewee #4
.....................
Now these MPAs, there's no take. There's only no take for a certain period of time and that's why rāhui
is a very good tool to use, because you close it off and then you close off for a purpose, for certain day,
to a certain day, then when it opens you have a (?) on that kai so people can see the improvements and
enjoy it and then perhaps, two years later come back and close it off again. That rāhui would shift to
another area of need if it needed it. – Interviewee #4
.....................
We need to say the end result for that rāhui was over a five-year period but it's actually become for
years, over a five-year period we need to have it closed for a certain time, open, close for a certain time,
open. So closed for two years and open for a certain time, like a couple of months and then closed again
for two years, something like that. And that will help restock it just for the first five years. So twice, and
that will work– Interviewee #4
.....................
so the idea was to put the Ki Uta Ki Tai Ngāti Kahungunu Iwi Incorporated fulfilled all the requirements
to become a mandated iwi organisation– Interviewee #5
.....................
The Coastal Hapū Collective is now seven years old ... there’s a three-fold reason why the Hapū
Collective got together. I suppose in the proper order that would be the issue with the customary regs.,
the Foreshore/Seabed scenario where we were being locked out of our own coastline again and the
mandated iwi organisation preparations which excluded hapū so we met quite regularly and ultimately
decided we couldn’t call ourselves, we needed to see that other, we needed to formalise ourselves as a
174

group and so proceeded to hīkoi in each of those six taiwhenua areas so we agreed, TPK funded us
$50,000 to do that and we set up, what we call the ‘Blue Book,’ which is a doorstopper really, the size of
a city’s phonebook. – Interviewee #5
.....................
if we collectivise along the coast, then we can whaka<strong>mana</strong> those values to our neighbours and those
further afield. – Interviewee #5
.....................
as part of the Ki Uta Ki Tai that we, as the name implies, Ki Uta, we’ve decided to include in the strategy
for freshwater, we went from being coastal to now incorporating everybody. So if a non-coastal hapū is
interested in joining the Hapū Collective then our doors are open-– Interviewee #5
.....................
<strong>Mana</strong> Ahuriri Incorporated, is a whole of catchment <strong>mana</strong>gement which Nelson District Council has in
place with Landcare, <strong>Mana</strong>aki Whenua. – Interviewee #5
.....................
the Kaiwhakahaere group involving a rep. from each of the four; Ministry, my sister [X], was put there by
[X] from Te Kupenga. Meka Whaitiri, the CEO of NKII, Aramanu Ropiha now, representing Asset Holding
Company, [X] representing the Hapū Collective and Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> is [X] – Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewer #1 - What was good about going into the mātaitai? Using the mātaitai as a tool, what was
the good thing about that?
Interviewee #6- Well we were able to look, you know, that replenish the stock on whatever species
because there's also the paua. What's his name, [X], [X] is one of the local recreational kaumatuas out
at Kairakau and many others that have always said that there's no legal sized paua around
.....................
when we knew what we wanted a customary tool, to ban commercial fishing, we knew that the mātaitai
was the tool that we wanted because that was the tool that addressed what we were wanting, but we
also had to take into consideration that there was a taiāpure in our area as well, – Interviewee #8
.....................
We wanted to utilise the natural resources that we had inherited from my parents so we decided to look
into land-based aquaculture, that is pumping water from the sea, putting it onto the land in tanks and
with the view to farming crayfish and paua, or even kina, for that matter. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Te Pātaka o Tangaroa plan that [X] spearheaded a couple of years ago on behalf of Ngā Rauru and it’s a
document about <strong>mana</strong>gement ...the basis for the plan was to give effect to the Deed of Settlement and
the protocols, fish protocols, that was paramount. We could see regionally and nationally downward
pressure on all types of resources, kai<strong>moana</strong> being one of them and that we had to be proactive about
how we played our role as kaitiaki, – Interviewee #11
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.....................
if you go back and look at the pre-Settlement documents about what Rauru was all about, it was about
revitalisation of a number of areas which have been lost over time and so the overall vision of
(Wakatipua o Ngā Rauru kitahitonga katoa?) or the revitalisation of Ngā Rauru (kitahitonga?) by
honouring our tūpuna and providing a future for our tamariki mokopuna became the overall goal of why
we would A) enter into settlement, ... we felt as if this plan or a plan of sorts, would be an
intergenerational plan and if we were to give proper (credies?) to our kaitiakitanga, this was one way in
which we could support that kaupapa of sustainability, not only for us, this generation but going
forward. ... Ngā Rauru doesn't see itself sitting outside the law and so the whole objective of putting
this structure and this planning around it was with all of those things in mind. – Interviewee #11
.....................
what settlement did for us on the 26 July 2005, was actually give us the ability to resource and that's
time, people, money and skill to be able to develop this type of work here. We didn't think there was a
lot to be gained from having plans at the beginning and that's again, about resourcing. There was only a
few of us in the iwi who could get things done so you had to concentrate on kaupapa matua and get
those through first and then everything falls out of that, so post-settlement afforded us the ability to be
able to provide more detail in the aspirations on how we would meet our aspirations. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Interviewee #11- essentially Pātaka o Tangaroa to be honest, was slightly forced on us by the Māori
Fisheries regulations in the need to set up a mandated, what do you call it-
Interviewer #1 - Iwi organisation, MIO, yeah
.....................
Te Kotahitanga o Te Arawa Waka Fisheries from the time of its inception to 2002, 2003 where I came off
as a trustee. In that time we didn’t have a formal, look at a formal structure for mahinga kai. What we
moved into was initiating a taiāpure and a taiāpure was based around Maketu. Also at that time, I’m
unsure of what the current developments are in terms of taiāpure is, are, or in the future of mahinga
kai, but we hadn’t investigated in terms of freshwater fisheries. We’d only looked at in terms of Maketu
. Again, we were just looking at what that meant for us and trying to protect the mātaitai, the kai<strong>moana</strong>
of that area. So at that time we didn’t have a investigation to what a formal structure could look like for
that. In terms of the taiāpure, it sits with, from what I can remember and I don’t believe they’ve
restructured it as of yet, but you had representatives from both the inland tribes, basically for Te
Kotahitanga itself, being reps on that board-– Interviewee #14
.....................
In terms of the taiāpure, what that meant is I can’t remember exactly how many reps we had, but the
board has at least between two to four, I think, working on inland on the taiāpure board with the other
representatives being locals, whether they were board members or whether they were just interested
parties out on the coast, but they all did have whakapapa connections back to Te Arawa. So that’s how
176

that board was made up over there and that board also governs the, alongside the Kotahitanga, for
instance we need a customary permit to go and get kai<strong>moana</strong>. Those of us from inland would go to the
local office of the Kotahitanga and get a permit, but that permit actually sits under the taiāpure. –
Interviewee #14
.....................
the iwi environment <strong>mana</strong>gement plan was developed to clearly articulate our iwi’s intent with our
environment within our rohe and that’s why it was developed. – Interviewee #13
.....................
so that was a decision met by all the affiliate fishing iwi to participate in that taiāpure. Again, the main
thing is, the taiāpure at Maketu was to preserve the kai there. – Interviewee #14
.....................
If you were talking our iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plan, it wasn’t our environmental plan, it was the
developmental plan because it came in an era when that’s what our focus was so part of this current
plan that we have has been a review and update and definitely an inclusion of environmental policies. –
Interviewee #14
.....................
it was actually a part of our overall iwi plan that we would get to this particular point and we would
develop an iwi environmental <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. It’s come out of a project that we’ve subscribed with
Te Puni Kōkiri for three years. The first year was we would do the iwi environment <strong>mana</strong>gement plan.
The second year, which is this year, we’ve done the Māori land and best land use plan in the rohe and
next year we will look at the development protocol plans and the development protocol plans are more
centred around papa kāinga housing and those types of developments. – Interviewee #13
.....................
In terms of our own body, we were in, for want of a better word, say a state of flux because we weren’t
sure what type of level entity we should be. We knew we needed to participate, but we couldn’t
because we seemed to be caught up in a whole number of different groups because we were also
affiliated to a local rūnanga as well and it took all of 10 to 13-odd years to pull ourselves out of all these
other bodies that we were part of and to establish this thing called Te Maru and then also to get a fish
recognition from the local authority. So we had to go through that as well. So what you’ve seen, my
friend, is actually near on that 24 years of the development of the hapū from a group that was operated
out of its marae committee to the group we are today which is still operating out of the marae
committee in a form, but we’ve set up entities around it, so we can actually do it in a way that meets
legal requirements, but still meets our tikanga. – Interviewee #14
.....................
the generation before me did start doing things about wanting the river returned in trying to <strong>mana</strong>ge
the fisheries and look after the estuary as much as they could and I think that's why they put the
177

taiāpure in. It was just part of the ethos at the time to look after the estuary or look after the kai<strong>moana</strong>
and I think there was a responsibility on us to do that. We were kaitiaki. – Interviewee #15
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Could we perhaps touch on the taiāpure, the establishment of the taiāpure and the
process and how you went about and why you went about supporting the taiāpure initiative-
Interviewee #15- That was part of the Sea Lord’s deal, you know, came under that customary fisheries
aspect and we were the first ones, as I understand, applying and it was all because we had the thing
behind us, the experience with the river, our kai<strong>moana</strong> being taken away. So we were onto it, really,
said, ‘Well shit, this might be the avenue to get back control of the kai<strong>moana</strong> and looking after it and reestablishing
it.’ So the kuia and koro at the time, which is, like I say a generation before me and many of
them passed away, said, ’Let’s do it.’ They were also fighting the rest of Te Arawa as coastal people over
the Sealords putea so they were already fired up. They saw it as an avenue to restore and protect what
was left so they went, yeah the first to apply but the second one to be awarded.
.....................
They agreed to it over there in Rotorua, the paru down the river. That was the only option to save the
lakes and we, at this end, went to the Environment Court, took out as much as we could to stop it, but
we knew there's only a couple of us again, it's about lack of capabilities, too, amongst our people so we
tried to stop it, so you know, Te Arawa was split, so we sort of understood it would only be a temporary
measure until they get the lakes cleaned up. Probably the biggest thing that has been getting the
Kaituna Maketu estuary strategy, whether it's getting the river restored through the estuary is going to
be huge thing and that's all part of, so kai<strong>moana</strong>’s brought back-– Interviewee #15
.....................
we’d go along and talk to the elders there and one of the biggest things they all said is that, yep, it
wasn’t so much that we were going to take a piece of the land and make it a gazetted area, it was that
we needed to look after it because they said, ‘Well, the shellfish and all that are declining so we need to
close them.’ We couldn’t take the whole area that used to be there. We just needed to take a bit to
start off and we hoped that everybody would follow in the years to come. Well, starting from then, I got
them all to sign and they’re all and the things they said at that time, ‘Nah, close the bloody thing.’ –
Interviewee #16
.....................
We gazetted in 1999 and that became law in ’99. Then the two kaitiakis was myself and [X], which was
my father, at that time. So, and we were going to marae meetings and explaining it to different maraes
what we were doing but no one was really interested in that at that time so we gazetted. At the same
time, in 2000, we also put in a 186 that covered Harding Rd., only because we wanted our reserve in the
middle of the (?) and the other thing we did was put in a mātaitai which covered from (Tahua Otuku?) all
the way to Waikare and the other mātaitai covered the whole of (Paimea?). Now about 4 or 5 layers
going around and around in circles, it came up and it was [X]. It was through his efforts we finally got it
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actually. So we owe a lot to that one person from (Ngāpuhi?). Kia ora [X], but he was the one that
helped us and we got it in and it took six years. – Interviewee #16
.....................
So along at that time when the 186 got lost at the Ministry somewhere, sort of drifted off and nobody
ever heard of it. 186 was done at a shared meeting and [X] was chairman at the time. In fact, what they
did is they made the bloody thing bigger. We didn’t want it that big, our reserve on Harding Rd., but
they drew it from Harding Rd. all the way to Surf Lifesaving Club on (?) Shore. All we wanted was
(Rarewhanga?) and Harding Rd. And so we left it and the thing that way from the wharf to (?) Shore
Lifesaving Club and we left it. Somewhere along the line, we lost it, well we didn’t lose it, the Ministry
lost it. – Interviewee #16
.....................
we looked at all the tools that were available with taiāpure, mātaitai and whatever. We found that
taiāpure was too long and too exhausting and we found out that it was a waste of time, really. Why,
was because you had too many barriers upon you that way and the second one was for mātaitai, we
could run the thing our way and what we wanted and put tikanga in there and we could get the
community to help support us along the way as long as they understood what we were talking about. –
Interviewee #16
.....................
Pātaka system is like having something available during winter that’s not available during winter.
...we’re trying to change the whole concept of diving back to seasonal, but until we get the pātaka
system in and using it during winter, we can’t close it off because some people when they dive they like
the pāuas and all that and that’s still alright during the winter so we send them out. – Interviewee #16
.....................
One of the things in a mātaitai, and I said, ‘We’ll be doing this for a couple of years,’ probably by 2010 or
2011, we will close three-quarters of it down. ... and leave the rest open for everybody ...there’ll be no
shellfish coming out of there. The only places it will come out will be mussels and these particular areas
that we point out, but everything else will be nothing. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Once upon a time they would used to go in winter and during summer while everybody’d be out there,
well it doesn’t happen anymore. Every bugger with a diving suit’s out there every day. So rather than
that we will look at, by the time we finish the research we’ll be looking at seasonal and we’ll close the
whole lot down during winter. But until we start doing our pātaka system and getting it right, why we
started this mātaitai, that’s our best bet that we can hope for. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Does the mātaitai have a <strong>mana</strong>gement plan in place?
Interviewee#16 – Yeah, yeah, we do. That’s one of the other things we’ve got to do in the next couple
of years.
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.....................
Interviewer #1 - Still waiting for your 186 closure.
Interviewee #16– Oh hell, that’s long gone. We were lucky that you fellows came along and wanted to
do it again, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered about it. I would have left it because to me, the one in
front of that road, or in front of that park, we had wanted it reserved and closed everything down. We
didn’t mind when they came along and reused it. As long as it stayed closed. The 186 is once every
three years, were all good, but one of the things that it wasn’t was permanent. I don’t mind them
fishing or that’s one of the rules that we have with them, but the 186 is, we’ll keep closing it forever
because one, we don’t want it open.
.....................
the Ngāti Kuta (mia patu kiha ? koutou?) Rapiti Fisheries <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plan. ... Well, actually (?) we
wrote the plan mainly to set some benchmarks. We served it up to the Council and presented it to
them. They accepted it and we knew they couldn't refuse it because it was coming from bottom up and
it was from hapū and they had obligations to receive it. So we first put it into the Far North District
Council. We then went to the Northern Regional Council and presented it there. We presented it to the
Department of Conservation. We presented it to Horomia. [the then-Minister of Māori Affairs] ... And
that was really to give it a status in the minds of those agencies. – Interviewee #17
.....................
2004 I think we finished our hapū plan but contained in the hapū plan was for whenua but also there
was a fishery component to it because we see the two going hand in hand– Interviewee #17
.....................
Then we said well the fishery, which is part of the land, and all of this happened at the same time as the
Seabed and Foreshore Repeal Act was being embedded and because we opposed the Foreshore Act and
so we had an idea of the relationship between the two because we were putting in submissions. So I
think all of that was swimming around in our minds at the time that the relationship between the two
and so it was much easier for us to translate some of that learnings into the sea ... it was more about a
vehicle to actually allow us to do it. – Interviewee #17
.....................
NIWA catch levels, a customary permit to reckon the actual counts and charter filings, you know, all of
those things add up to understanding what's going on down there and they need to be matched up with
our customary indicators so that we do have some technical support for what we're seeing. It's not just
us, a bunch of Māoris jumping up and down and stamping their feet, which has been the case in the
past. So the dependence on sound data was really important because then you could engage the
MinFishes and the DoCs and the councils- ... and then you can engage them and start getting things at
least on the table and hopefully resolved– Interviewee #17
.....................
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they wanted to sink the boat into our rohe. So anyway, the owners of the Canterbury went bust and so
we bought out the debt and so now we have this boat, but the boat, there was three reasons why we
bought the boat. One was- ... Canterbury Friggett. One was, well there are four reasons really. The first
one was because we were linked to the boat, we didn't want to go down with it so, as another Māori
organisation failed, that was a primary driver. The second thing was there was some economic upside
through divers’ fees and maybe some intellectual properties stuff but we haven't tested that yet. The
third thing was the fishery enhancement, which was another primary reason why we- ... bring the
fishery back in that area ... it was really built around an economic base for the community because we
knew that it sort of put us into that tourism spectrum as it were. Oh no, it was a symbol of our
kaitiakitanga. It was our pō, that was in the ground that no one could take it away from us. It was
exercising kaitiakitanga. – Interviewee #17
.....................
So we thought, ‘Well, we'll just do our own rāhui.’ So we took our old people out there. They did a
blessing. In fact, it was quite a moving thing to watch these old people, as if they just naturally came to
them. They just went down, I just found it fascinating. – Interviewee #17
.....................
We have since applied for a 186 now and I think it got notified in the paper yesterday– Interviewee #17
.....................
Rāhui was excellent. You could move it, you ... but you could move it from, we had it in one area from
the point to mouth of the Little Waihi River, then probably about another year later we move it around
this side, because that side has got away and stuff like that and that’s why I’m into rāhuis and I’m not
into marine reserves – Interviewee #19
.....................
Interviewer #3 – I’m inferring from what you’re saying that at least one of the benefits of a customary
rāhui is that it’s locally controlled and locally <strong>mana</strong>ged, but also is it that it’s much simpler to, a much
simpler process to get established because you’re not having to get the permission of Ministries. Is that
another advantage? It’s a much faster, more flexible mechanism, would you say?
Interviewee #20 – That’s right because the Ministry processes are cumbersome and slow, you know,
there are two sustainability rounds per annum, they, it’s quite a formal process they’re going through to
make change and they look at, they, I’ve heard people say it costs up to $50,000 to change one
regulation. So that’s the cost they see and so they are very mindful of cost and they base that on the
amount of staff hours and because they have a very, well they used to have a very laborious and internal
process they go through and dozens of people look at something on its way to the Minister’s office. So,
I, yeah, community-based action is, it can happen pretty quickly
Interviewer #3 – Yeah, yeah, and it can change fairly quickly too, so that –
Interviewee #20 – Absolutely-
Interviewer #3 – You don’t have to go back to the Minister to lift a rāhui, you can just-
Interviewee #20 – Absolutely and just on, and one other point about the noticeable change in
abundance, it would be, where there are temporary fishing closures, like there’s one at (Pukirua?) Bay.
There was one in Kaikōura, absolutely kai<strong>moana</strong> does come back. The problem being what happens
181

once you lift that fishing closure? It actually, you know people can go straight back in there. So really
they are just that, just a temporary fix but you know, you need some, there’s you know, if abundance is
an issue, there must be other, you know, you do need to look at other ways and that’s why I like the
rāhui concept. Which would be localised reefs, like I think at home in Napier, the (Pania?) reef’s pretty
famous up home, the (tangaweau waipatiki?) reefs. So yeah, it’s locally accessible reefs to the locals.
.....................
Interviewer #1 – Brilliant. Now you’re very unique along this coast in that you’ve got an incredible tool
called the mātaitai and you’ve got that through, well quite an extensive part of that rohe on the
foreshore there isn’t it?
Interviewee#22 – Yes we have. That’s the Moremore mātaitai
Interviewer #1 – And that’s been in place for about five years, six years?
Interviewee #22– Yeah I think so, yeah
.....................
the driving force behind the mātaitai, obviously, is conservation. We want to be able to ensure that the
kai in our <strong>moana</strong> is there for all New Zealanders (mairamau?) that we are able to go and get this, you
know, as a young person in my lifetime and I’m 67, I was able to go down to the beach with my parents
and my grandparents and gather seafood just on the shore. Today that’s not there anymore and there’s
a number of reasons for that but you know, we believe that by putting in some protection mechanisms
and some constraints around our waterways and our beaches that it will assist to bring back the kai that
was abundant and we could all enjoy, once again, the foods of Tangaroa– Interviewee #22
.....................
The Crown has signalled that they will not agree to a comprehensive framework for co-<strong>mana</strong>gement
anywhere else as they have for the Waikato River. They’ve already signalled that they are not putting
some things on the table and they are very reluctant to put such a comprehensive framework together
again. ... but the Crown has already said, for example, it won’t put the accords that it has given us on
the table again to other iwi. – Interviewee #24
.....................
Taiamai ki te Marangai Takiwaa of Te Rūnanga a Iwi o Ngapuhi– a traditional grouping of fourteen marae
and their associated hapū – is the first established pursuant to the Kai<strong>moana</strong> Regulations in Northland. –
Interviewee #25
.....................
we raved about Ngāi Tahu for a while, but then you realise that in their separation of business from
social, corporate to hapū, they had the business side, but had lost the values we’re talking about and the
hapū have and basically they created a separation between themselves and their beneficiaries. So that’s
a very, well I believe, you know, for like hapū/iwi organisations, that’s very dangerous to, because there
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has to be some type of difference made but not a total separation – Interviewee #14b
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Failure
What initiatives haven’t worked for iwi?
Summary of key points:
AIPs
Aquaculture ventures due to MFish getting rid of smaller players and lack of funding; NIWA
overcharged for what they contributed;
186 applications stalled
Quotes:
we had a signing at my marae two years ago and currently, to be truthful with you, that AIP isn’t worth
the paper it is written on now. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Did the 186 get implemented? Did you put a, did that actually get passed in law or
something, the year it got closed?
Interviewee #2– No, it didn't. I sent the letter off to Ministry of Fisheries and that stage the letter was
addressed to Bob Drey from the Ministry. We did have a confirmation that the letter had been received
but over some time period or over a period of time there was no action taken and as time went on of
course, we waited and waited and waited and it was actually [X] triggered the application again-
.....................
we were sort of involved in the taiāpure and that when they talked about that one and it actually
extended right down to Marokopa I think, but for some reason or other, they had to cut that one back
so we never actually got involved in it – Interviewee #2
.....................
I couldn’t believe, the big, huge thing for me was a variation licence ... just a bloody nightmare, actually.
I’d never got through it again. – Interviewee #9
.....................
It was so bad, the experience. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - The barriers came from every angle. There were more barriers than success stories, ...
Interviewee #10 –Even from an MFish perspective, the barriers to entry, you know, that’s policy of
MFish to get rid of the small players, even in fishing, you know, it’s, so what you do is you up the fees so
that only the big players can actually afford to pay them
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.....................
Interviewee #10 - you’ll see the big Te Puni Kōkiri building and it’s got beautiful glass moulding and you
see the guys all in suits, but what do they actually give? You know, and their perception is and then you
read ‘Way forward for Māori in aquaculture, paua farming.’ Why is it a way forward for Māori? You
know, there’s Māoris get into it and then you got to pay NIWA for all the research and science.
Interviewee #9– Even before we started we’ve had, it cost us 35,000, even before we started and that
was just communication between us, the scientists and MeF and well, I should say, in compliance, even
before we got a licence and you know, and everything.
Interviewee #10 – I think it was five grand a day for your feasibility study from NIWA. ...
Interviewee #9 –To see whether it was viable and then, yeah, $35,000 later, they said, ‘Yes, it is.’
Interviewee #10 – You should sue them, because it’s not. [laughs]
Interviewee #9 – No, it is good. I still believe that it could work, but you need money. You need
substance, money to really make it successful.
.....................
I don’t think I, I do not have the stamina to go through all that again. I just simply don’t. We’d never do
it, never do it. ... before you’re even selling, people had their hands out for money. People wanted
money from every area. – Interviewee #9
.....................
the Minister of Treaty Negotiations said that accords, to the extent that they’re available in the Waikato
River co-<strong>mana</strong>gement agreements will not be available and they’ve said that based on the fact that they
think that the aspects of the accord should be being implemented through a business-as-usual approach
and so they don’t need to be to that level again, which I think sorely, sorely misses the mark. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
Interviewee #29b - they told us, look we want you to start working on a fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. We
want you to get all these people involved in developing it. So we did that and we came up with the
perfect model like [Interviewee #5b]’s just saying, that’s another one, and they said, ‘No.’ Okay so what
we’re saying now is we’ve done what you wanted us to do. We now need this to be resourced. Very
hard for a whole lot of hapū, iwi to come together and agree on one hapū/iwi to actually use it as a pilot
on behalf of all of us and we all agreed to do that and they said, ‘No, there was no resource.’ I tell you
our kuia kawa cried in that room.
Interviewee #15b - It’s disgusting.
Interviewee #5b – It is disgusting
.....................
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Interviewer #1 – So originally Rakaipaaka was very supportive of that Te Kupenga a Maui forum?
Interviewee #29 – Yeah, we were until you know, we kept going thinking that we were going to get
some sort of support for our vision anyway for our customary fishing area and that was basically to find
out about what the forum was trying to achieve, which we thought was a great thing because it was
going to help us get a fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan together and it was going to bring the resources. It
was going to support you know, maybe into commercial fishing, but just we had a meeting down in
Masterton and this Ministry of Fisheries people all came. It was beautiful. You were on the scene,
[Interviewer #1], and then all of a sudden we said, ‘Well you know, okay, we’ve got a Rongomaiwahine
people that have bought a draft plan. We see it fitting into what the Ministry of Fisheries is trying to
achieve through their Fisheries Deed of Settlement or Fisheries Bill,’ and then we asked, ‘Is this going to
be resourced?’ and then they said, ‘No, there isn’t going to be any resources. Not to Rongomaiwahine.’
And yet they had the vote, they had the people that were able to do it. They had the plan. … They had
all of it but the Ministry of Fisheries couldn’t, they didn’t say why they just said that resources weren’t
available.
Interviewer #1 – How did that make you feel when
Interviewee #29 – Well, we got pretty pissed off [laughs] It did, it made us feel like we wasted like four
meetings, four meetings, four months of travel you know, expectation. We were overwhelmed that
there was finally we had a link straight to government, straight to the government organisation that was
going to help us
.....................
well we saw that this plan was going to achieve was exactly what we were trying to achieve, I mean, you
know, it didn’t matter whether we weren’t going to be resourced so why not support this one that we
saw would be the beginning of something for all of us but then we just got basically told, ‘No,’ you know,
there wasn’t anything going to be available and we just always told them what we thought of them in a
nice way and got up and left and never came back, went to one more hoping to see that they would see
the reason, and don’t come and keep meeting with us. It’s just a tick box thing because you know, the
Ministry of Fisheries have to do this, this, this. Okay you’re saying you’re doing this, this, this but you’re
not doing this other more important thing because for us as Māori we’re looking for, we’re doers, you
know, we want to get to the end point. It doesn’t matter how we get there. You tell us how we have to
get there and we’ll do the best we can for nothing. If that’s what it takes to get there, for nothing, but
don’t tell us while we’re just about there that you can’t help us finish it off – Interviewee #29
.....................
Yeah but how are they supposed to actually achieve that? So yeah I don’t know. Are we saying the
wrong thing? Are we just talking a hole in their head? Do we not know enough about the fisheries bill?
Is there no resources you know, people just should have told us that right from the beginning. They just
want us to establish our own Ministry of Fisheries, I mean our Fisheries <strong>Mana</strong>gement plans and then
what, it just sits on the shelf. It does nothing – Interviewee #29
186

.....................
I guess the simple test is what business is making money out of it now, isn’t it? Because that’s really
what’s going to drive how the Act responds and I don’t think anyone’s had success, have they? Did Ngā
Puhi try a, it’s not a salmon fishery, it’s called a kingfish fishery I think and that didn’t work – Interviewee
#20b
187

Success
What initiatives have worked for iwi?
Summary of key points:
Forming committees of gazetted <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki built relationships and allowed them to more
easily work toward common agreements
No barriers to establishing mātaitai for one iwi
Gaining social support for (illegally) transplanting kai
In one area the marine strategy (mussel farm) has succeeded in giving the community access to
mussels and pipi
Fish plans have been signed off and are operational documents
The pātaka kai system is working well for giving people their customary rights for fish
Quick process from application to implementation of taiāpure in one area (2 years)
Rāhui (not legally recognised) still has poachers, but area is exercising kaitiaki customary law
The Treaty Settlement process has allowed one iwi to gain a good relationship with Crown
through conflict; same iwi was accorded Section 6, 7, and 8 of RMA (first time in history); They
also had their spiritual relationship with their waterways formally recognised; Being vocal in the
Environment Court put them on agencies’ radar
Quotes:
We have signed off our historical Te Rarawa claims and gone and reached an AIP agreement with that. –
Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Or is it the other way, [X], the law doesn't fit the coastal need, Tangaroa’s need.
Interviewee#4 - The urgent need, like for an example, we've brought pipis down, and I don't care where
this goes, because they can go and look for them if they want to, or someone reads this and goes, ‘Oh,
I'm going to look for this.’ We got some, some people found out in Wai<strong>mana</strong>(?) what we were doing
here in [X] because of the paper. We just closed off these areas, put rāhui in four areas, one of them
was the pipi bed. Somehow there's people in (Waiotahi?) found out and they invited us back up there
again. Me, [X], and a couple of others went up and we actually thought we were going to get a
growling(?) actually and so we went up to go and face our growling and they came in and it was amazing
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So what are the successes of Mahia Coastal Marine Strategy?
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Interviewee #4– Well, now we've got mussels. Now we've got actually nice green-lipped mussels, now,
you know, because they've just come off a farm,
.....................
The pipi bed is a good case. The mussels are a good case too because now they are grown, they are
growing that heaps– Interviewee #4
.....................
Our rohe structure started in 2006, the <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki that were nominated by our 6 marae in our rohe
<strong>moana</strong> were gazetted 2001. We finally met 2006, had an AGM and agreed at the AGM that we would
form a committee of all those <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki that were gazetted. – Interviewee #8
.....................
the good thing about that process [gazetting first, then investigating the customary tools, and ultimately
deciding on the mātaitai] was it brought us all together because we've not been known to be together,
especially all those maraes that are around that area. ...This was that opportunity for us to be all
working together as one under one umbrella. It started, and in that it started building relationships, it
started building, bringing back into the group ideas and discussions that those who belong to the
different marae would meet monthly, they would then come back to the group with feedback and so, if
there was anything good that came out of all was the relationships that we built amongst one another
to work to a common agreement and that's what I found was good about the process. – Interviewee #8
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Were there barriers that you experienced in trying to establish, I guess firstly, the rohe
<strong>moana</strong>, secondly, establishing the committee and thirdly, the mātaitai itself. Were there significant
barriers along the way?
Interviewee#8 – If I think about the rohe <strong>moana</strong>, I don't believe there were any barriers because I
remember signing a nomination form and I know it wasn't long after that we actually got gazetted. So I
don't think there was any there.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Has the plan then, has that gone around Te Katu Rauru?
Interviewee #11– Yep
Interviewer #1 – And that's been signed off?
Interviewee#11 – Yep
Interviewer #1 – And ratified?
Interviewee#11 – Yep
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Interviewer #1– Excellent, so that's an operational document
.....................
Interviewee#13 - Te Ohu Kai Moana
Interviewer #1 – It’s a pātaka kai scenario?
Interviewee #13– It is pātaka kai. That’s what they call it.
Interviewee #14– What they’ve organised basically is with, is that Moana Fisheries? Out of Tauranga,
Moana Fisheries, whenever there’s a tangihanga with an affiliate marae body group, affiliate marae,
that marae has a right, once they’ve contacted the local board to access ten kilos of fish from say
((name?)) fisheries, whatever fish that they have available at the time. You can’t just walk up there and
say, ‘I want 10K of snapper.’ It’s what they’ve got there, but you can, basically it’s filleted, everything’s
boned, and you just walk out with it like that and go straight back home.
Interviewer #1– I would imagine that’s been set up under the Amateur Fishing Regulations, that kind of
arrangement-
Interviewee #14 – Probably, but it all sits, the whole viewpoint of it is it’s still customary rights and that’s
why we’re accessing it. We had a trial of it back in the late 90s and then we stopped it because it was
actually costing us. Obviously the boards and that has (read back?) through these other regulations and
it’s been in place now for at least two, maybe even three years.
Interviewer #1 – And that pātaka kai scenario is working well?
Interviewee #13– Yes, it’s excellent.
.....................
Interviewee #15- No, from 1994 it was first applied for and then the thing finished in 1996.
Interviewer #1 – That would have to be the quickest approved taiāpure in the history of this land.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - And so the rāhui has been in effect for?
Interviewee #17– Since March this year and to support it [the rāhui], we did this brochure. Now we
know it has no legal traction from a L-A-W point of view, but we were exercising kaitiaki customary law,
and to me, we have a right under the Treaty to do that, but people still go in there and fish and all we
can do is shoo them away and I know that that cause (eruptions?) inside the Ministry of Fisheries-
.....................
190

Interviewee#18 – I see that without (?) great relationships, (?) we’re only just coming to a place of
relating in a good way and that’s been through the Treaty settlement process.
Interviewer #1 – And that’s only by getting the help of the Treaty settlements and whatnot to push them
isn’t it into action?
Interviewee#18 – Yes, exactly, until then, no
Interviewer #1 – So if there wasn’t a push from Wellington it begs the question really, doesn’t it?
Interviewee #18– Yeah, although we, you know, when you lock horns enough with somebody you sort
of start developing a healthy respect for each other? Well I think the council have come to that point of
respecting [X] because of our Environment Court was the penultimate of our clashes and I think
although there is a statement (the REC?) one, I believe we won because they didn’t get anywhere near
what they wanted, but we got recognition of all three points of the Section 6e, 7a, Section 8, first iwi to
ever be accorded all three of those sections in the RMA. ... that’s in our Environment Court ruling, that’s
precedent. That’s a precedent for Environmental law. No iwi have ever been accorded all three
sections of the Act and what’s unique is that they recognise the spiritual relationship [iwi-X] have to the
Taniwha Springs or to the puna, which our law recognises spiritual values. It doesn’t get done. It
doesn’t happen, that’s the first time.
.....................
one thing I’ve learnt working with local government is the squeaky wheel gets the oil and unless you say
something your silence is taken as approval and because we’ve been quite vocal about our wanting to
have input, wanting to be recognised and I think the biggest one was, again, I think the Environment
Court. That’s really put us on everybody’s radar in terms of the local government bodies and so yes, we
have experienced a big change in the way they engage in us and they want to engage with us, yeah and
that’s cool in that respect. – Interviewee #18
.....................
Interviewee #19 – No, I like the idea how they can put a rāhui in place like they did it for the mussels
over three years. We did it for the pipi beds over two years I think it was.
Interviewer #1 – And people respect the rāhui?
Interviewee #19 – And it was excellent
Interviewer #1 – Brilliant
Interviewee #19– It was excellent and the locals helped us out by telling people. We had signs up and
they’d get defaced you know, and pulled down.
Interviewer #1 – So the rāhui was, had legal powers behind it or was it voluntary?
Interviewee #19 – No, it was a voluntary thing.
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.....................
Oh, there’s a, you know, you can justify inactivity or negative decisions it would seem on a range of
things in that. Having said that though, Ngāi Tahu have had considerable success, to my understanding.
I’m not entirely current with all the applications of late, but I know when I was there, we worked with
them on a series of mātaitai and regulations and temporary closures and they did quite a methodical,
had a very methodical and considerate approach, like they surveyed their own people, each of the
rūnanga and they mapped it out on a GIS map and they got all the particular reefs and they asked hard
questions themself, ‘Well do we need the whole reef or do we need just part of the reef,’ and I think
because they’re quite, they had quite a methodical, they had a really good, and MFish were heavily
involved in the process, and a considered process, it was, and they were quite conservative, too, in their
approach. In contrast to the North Island there was a lot of applications that were quite large in scale
and you know, from the opponents of those kind of applications they would argue that they’re being
used as a way of kicking everybody out you know, and exercising rangatiratanga over the <strong>moana</strong>, which
has its problems, using rules and laws to exercise one’s rangatiratanga. It’s a hard way of doing it I
would have thought, you know, relying on agents of the Crown. So having said that, in the south, well in
Ngāi Tahu, in particular, there’s reasonable success and I would, yeah, so there’s a lot to be made of
how, what’s the model, successful model Ngāi Tahu have followed, or used, and to see if that can be
replicated elsewhere – Interviewee #20
.....................
because Waikato-Tainui Settlement is a Deed of Settlement under Treaty claims, that’s effectively
created changes, or process under the RMA as a result of Treaty Settlement, which has never happened
before. So you’re getting a much closer alignment between Treaty Settlement stuff and RMA stuff,
which signals a new era for New Zealand, and an important one, because before people have fought it
out in the courts and they’ve kept the Treaty separate from the RMA and the fact that it’s now, there’s
new precedent with the Waikato-Tainui Settlement. – Interviewee #24
.....................
the vision strategy’s objectives will be in the Settlement legislation. The objective and strategies, the
vision strategy is also enabled through the Ngāti Tuwharetoa, Raukawa and Te Arawa Waikato River Act.
So our piece of legislation, so it’s good, in effect, too, through legislation. So they’re clearly stated in our
deed. – Interviewee #24
.....................
we negotiated our accords so our accords are separate to the strategies, right? Our accords are
separate documents between Raukawa and the respective Minister, but we negotiated the accords with
Te Arawa. We did collective negotiations so they were in the room, we were in the room with them.
And what was very helpful was that both the negotiator for Te Arawa and I, got a policy planning
background in public policy sector developments stuff background and so we were able to bring our
whakaaro from Raukawa in our vision and know what we wanted and know what was going to translate
192

into progress for our people and then look at what the statements of intent were for those agencies and
work through their work programmes and see where the alignment was and try to do that strategically.
So it was very hard work in that we were negotiating five at once. So I had to deal with five agencies but
each of those agencies only had to deal with me and it was the workload more than the expertise why
that was the problem, really. – Interviewee #24
.....................
we’ve fought long and hard for those things in negotiation and the issue was that both Labour and
National governments, because we had to negotiate with both of them over the time period were very
clear that this had to happen within the RMA environment and the LGA environment. They weren’t
prepared to make any changes to the RMA or LGA and so none of this could be (?) RMA and so we had
long discussions with t he chief RMA lawyer from Crown Hall about the way we were structuring this and
the language we used and we had that hierarchy of language definitely in mind, give effect to, have
particular regard to take into account and we fought very hard to keep getting the highest level of
recognition, not knowing how it’s been so reasonably diminished in the past and yes, it probably still is a
risk in the framework. – Interviewee #24
.....................
Interviewer #1 - joint <strong>mana</strong>gement agreements, are they binding?
Interviewee #24– Yes ... Binding from the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement framework legislation
.....................
the joint <strong>mana</strong>gement agreement will provide for the local authority and the Raukawa Settlement Trust
to work together in relation to the exercise of the following functions to hours and duties in the RMA,
monitoring and enforcement and accords (for clause?) XXX. Preparation review are same. So it actually
goes a lot further than [muffled] be able to talk with you about those things. It actually talks about how
you will work together. – Interviewee #24
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Relationships with Government
(Most of the helpers listed in Helpers/Enablers show positive relationships with government, some are
repeated below)
Summary of key points:
Government requires iwi to prove continuous/contiguous use of land before they are taken into
consideration as affected parties; New Zealand government to the time of colonisation has had
shoddy dealings with Māori around land and kai<strong>moana</strong>, proving Māori land title is harder due to
this- [so current government policies are influenced by past ones]
There has been a long distrust of local government
Iwi/hapū must tick all of government’s boxes, but that is not reciprocated by government
Government monetary contributions are only a fraction of what iwi/hapū need; Resourcing is a
barrier; if iwi/hapū had a good relationship with MinFish they would be adequately resourced
Got no support from local government in dealing with Foreshore and Seabed interests
Environment Waikato attends iwi committee meetings and have been helpful
Iwi need to have good relationships with agencies and need their support/skills/knowledge
The Crown does not reinforce Māori indigenous rights vie the UN Declaration of Indigenous
Rights
Regional Council gave no help, DoC had no money, MFish tried to help; ‘you have to make
making MFish policies work’; MFish and AFL(?) were good at helping hapū; MFish are great at
helping develop Fish plans
Legislation doesn’t adequately represent iwi/hapū parties
Māori commercial rights are defined by policy analysts, not iwi
Local government helped out; was supportive
The Treaty partnership is not being upheld by government (Ministers, CEs, officials);
government is a barrier
Some government agencies give the commercial sector more information than iwi and that can
be used against iwi
Iwi have asked for ‘Assistance to <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki’ (Clause 33, customary fishing reg) and have
not received it
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Government holds the purse strings, but doesn’t allocate funds adequately
MFish were useless; No support from government agencies; MFish raided the aquaculture farm
looking for illegal activities; didn’t provide help at all; MFish are hated and despised; no
communication or policy within MFish
TPK were hopeless, didn’t help at all; no help from TCDC – labelled as the worst council in New
Zealand
No support from government aside from FRST funding; compliance was a nightmare
Annual meetings between Crown & iwi are set out in one iwi’s Deed of Settlement to ensure
better relationships; but there’s always a reason why Crown can’t meet with iwi and the
protocol is not well understood by government
Māori MPs are helpful;
MoUs favour local government, not iwi
Iwi/hapū need to be given the chance to explain how local government can give effect to
<strong>tangata</strong> whenua as is written in the RMA
Office of Treaty Settlements is difficult to work with
Some iwi are developing good relationships with Ministers
DoC is rigid in their thinking, the person located in head office of DoC is difficult
Some iwi are successfully working toward co-<strong>mana</strong>gement with Crown
Iwi/hapū have to justify to Crown how much of a resource they think they will use, when
traditionally this is done on a needs-only basis
TPK have provided some iwi/hapū with funding for projects
Traditional customary gatherers are labelled as poachers by Crown agencies
Local authorities agendas sometimes conflict with iwi/hapū agendas, but they do not come to
iwi to consult with them; agencies come from a different mindset than iwi
Government agencies aren’t community-oriented
EBoP actively sought how they could work within iwi plans
Government recognises farmers over iwi
No dialogue between iwi and local authorities; they need to release some power in order to gain
trust
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Quotes:
The Waikato River Settlement document is an example of power-sharing
Iwi cannot look to Crown to fix problems because they are responsible for creating the current
situations
The danger of working with Crown agencies is that the relationship is made with the person and
not the agency so it is constantly changing because they are not family-based
Crown research institutes are a bit easier to work with than most government agencies
we only would be given that extended mechanism if we could prove through the courts that we had
continuous contiguous use of that foreshore and seabed, meaning that we have to prove that that land
that we, the foreshore and seabed that we are claiming, we have to prove that the land that was
adjacent to or next to the foreshore and seabed was still owned by Māori who descended from the
original owners. For Te Rarawa having gone through that exercise, in terms of Māori-owned land on the
coastline, only about a third of the land is still in Māori land title. Another third, or just over a third is in
general title, probably three quarters of that general title is now owned by non-Māori. – Interviewee #1
.....................
And that kōrero goes right back into the 1830s, that was pre-Treaty times when our tūpuna started
seeing that as being an issue because there was one stage there where Māori were providing their kai
source to the colonisers and then somehow they saw it got ripped out of them through shoddy dealings,
pre-Treaty and pre-Parliament times in that kind of just raises that ugly head of the New Zealand
Shipping Company who was the major player in the construct of New Zealand Parliament in New
Zealand government and through their relationships with other countries they were able to influence
say, the Dutch shipping line to keep their eyes open for fishing boats not flying a flag that's heading up
to the north, to England, to go and take the kai and the Dutch shipping company, they ended up seizing
two Māori vessels and taking them back up to hold, under arrest and detain them there for two years
until those vessels were provided with the flag and it was Te Whakaputanga that the kōrero or the
Declaration of Independence, pre-Treaty, which was signed in 1835 and last signed by my tūpuna in ’39,
that provided that flag to the vessels so those vessels could return, but coming back up to now, although
our tūpuna were saying the same kōrero when we look at our whakapapa, other tūpuna were saying the
same kōrero as well and through the recent customary fisheries research we've done it highlights the
fact that our western seaboard was loaded with various kai<strong>moana</strong> and there are kai<strong>moana</strong> out there
now that are no longer available to them. – Interviewee #1
.....................
amongst our people, there has been a long distrust of government, or especially local government since
the demise of the County Council and the birth of Far North District Council. – Interviewee #1
.....................
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It doesn't matter if you’re local government or central government, the feeling is the same, the distrust,
the sentiments that Hone has voiced is an underlying feeling that people have or an underlying thought
that people have out there in Te Rarawa, however, it's not to be taken out of context. It's not to be seen
as the way in which English words are used. They are just annoyed with what happened-– Interviewee
#1
.....................
So yeah, we were ticking all of their boxes and we were coming to try and tick ours, there was nothing.
– Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewer #1 - [cross dialogue] as you’ve already mentioned how you, a lot of distrust on the agencies
and the programs they’re pedalling, no matter how eloquently packaged it looks-
Interviewee #1– Yep, and how nicely they [agencies] smile with you and they’re ripping your balls out,
but they still got a smile on their face and they’re not swearing.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Did OTS come and pick up the bill on that or legal aid come and pick up the bill for that?
Interviewee #1– We approached the Minister and provided them with the quantitative figure of it all
and the cost directly related for Foreshore and Seabed and he responded by making a contribution
towards it, which only amounted to probably about a fifth of our total deficit.
.....................
In terms of local government, we got no support. We got no recognition and we, our interests in the
Foreshore and Seabed area can’t be provided for without our interests being recognised. – Interviewee
#1
.....................
That was announced, that was a National Party policy before going into the elections that they were
going to support a review of the Act, but part of that policy, probably still on their website, didn’t
mention a repeal of the Act. It only spoke about the (?) ways of how to enhance it, as opposed to
repealing the Act itself. Resourcing is a constant barrier, not only just for fisheries but for general iwi
infrastructure- ... if you had a relationship with the Ministry of Fisheries you could say that things would
work in your favour and you wouldn't get anything less than what [iwi-X] had got. – Interviewee #1
.....................
Interviewee #2- I think from the Ministry of Fisheries point of view, I don’t believe that, looking now,
that there was sufficient information for us there ... there was discussions over the mātaitai on which
way we wanted to go and she actually brought the application sheets up and at this stage, ... it wasn’t
really defined on some of the areas, which probably suited us because we were pretty particular about
our information being given out, but in hindsight, now, looking back, I think the application could have
been a lot better, which would alleviate a lot of these issues that we’re having now. ... when we did the
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application, the questions that were asked weren’t really defined or it was pretty broad, so in relation to
what they are asking now. They are asking for us to define things, really define things and if they’d had
that in the first application it would have been a different story because we would have known where
we were going and know what information we were giving away, but now they are coming back to us
and saying that you didn’t supply the information right from the start, which is because the application
was insufficient, very clear.
Interviewer #1 – But they, on that last page or so of the regulations, all it says is name, area, (kowaikai?)
and that's your connection to that area,
Interviewee #2– Very limited application when I filled it in and that's my point, I'm saying now is that if
the application, at that stage, I think if they would, just going into mātaitais at that stage and they had
figured out themselves, how they were going to do it, so they just threw out this bit of, out these
questions and they were very vague. We put in what we thought was sufficient information to cover off
on the sheet and according to them now that it isn't so if they had made it that clear, right from the start
we wouldn't be where we are now, with the long finished the application.
Interviewer #1 – It’s quite interesting because they amended the kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations about two years
ago to provide for freshwater mātaitai options in the North. I'm surprised with your experience, if
there's more and more information being requested you would've thought they would perhaps have
taken an opportunity to change the rulebook.
Interviewee #2– Exactly, yet will they amended that yeah and this is the whole point of saying now is
that because they didn't have, but didn't ask the questions at that stage, we answer the questions, they
are holding back with our application. That's what's stalling our application.
.....................
One of our biggest oppositions has been the community board because we do have, (?) <strong>moana</strong>. We are
involved in the (<strong>moana</strong> way?) with the community board. There are a couple of our representatives
that use it but I don't think they do enough and that was the issue because when we had our meeting
and then I think there is close to 100 people there, this is during the week, so obviously they were out
there, these two, it really interested them you know as to how this was going to operate and at the end
of the evening they understood a lot more about the mātaitai reserve, not all of it, but they had a bit of
understanding. Initially they thought it was a reserve that was going to stop them from taking part in
fishing and getting their bits, but I think the key to us was sustainability. – Interviewee #2
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what level of support did you get from either the District Council or MFish or DoC or
anyone?
Interviewee #2– At that stage I think the biggest probably we got was really from MFish and that was
our people that were in there like [X]. He was very supportive...
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... Interviewer #1 – You’d mentioned [X], [X] helped a bit?
Interviewee #2– Yeah, she was quite good actually. It was her, [X]. At that stage, there was Forbes, the
<strong>Mana</strong>hira, but I think the key one there was [X]. [X] was the one that, because they set up the whole hui
and all you have to do was just turn up and of course we set it up off the record. We also did up during
the week hoping that we wouldn't get anybody but they all came from Taranaki and all.
Interviewer #1 – Alright, so the million dollar question is what were the barriers to trying to get this
application through?
Interviewee #2 – [X] would probably answer that one a bit better.
Interviewee #28– The attitude of the special <strong>mana</strong>ger, actually, not understanding where we were
coming from as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua. You know, he's an academic. How he sees things is a lot different to
how we see it. His was to the finer detail where we could see the bigger picture of things. I feel that
he's taken, he supported more of the objectives than the people who objected to the process than what
he has for us because he's taken all this time to try and contact them all again regardless of what the
lawyer has said about them not having a, you know, none of them have come back to him. They didn't
seem to think he was representing them anymore. So he's done his-
.....................
we still maintain that our tinorangatiratanga under the Crown, the Crown doesn't like the use of it
though. Somehow or other looked sideways when we talk about tinorangatiratanga but you know,
regardless we maintain that we had tinorangatiratanga over the foreshore and seabed in our (?)
freshwaters and they were never conceded and that's the only issue that I- they probably will not accept
that [iwi-X] maintains ownership but we're still working on it. I suppose our main objective really was, at
that time, was the sea, ownership of our traditional resources. – Interviewee #3
.....................
We’re lucky, I guess, that we are with Foreshore and Seabed part of the Justice Department and
somehow just listening to the more experienced negotiators, they feel that Office Treaty settlements
are difficult to negotiate with when they find the foreshore and seabed (?)better (?)– Interviewee #3
.....................
Well getting back to the Minister, the Foreshore and Seabed Act review, I think, was the catalyst for us
to meet with the Minister because the news we got at the time was that it could've been false that this
foreshore and seabed team was going to, what's the word, that there didn't appear to be any need to
hold on to this foreshore and seabed team, in terms of negotiations with us because they had more
important things to do having to do with the Act and there was a suggestion as I said before earlier that
perhaps he was looking at putting us back with OTS but we <strong>mana</strong>ged to negotiate with the Minister that
we wanted to carry on with his team. So he made a decision that he'll keep in negotiation going with his
199

foreshore and seabed and apart from that, there's been site visits where he has come up, so we are
developing a good relationship. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewee #3- Yeah and that may have been as a consequence of being involved in foreshore and
seabed. I don't know whether you get the same access doing this is when you are with OTS, but [X]
obviously has been of great assistance for us, in terms meeting with the Ministers. ... She’s the chief
negotiator for the Crown in terms of our negotiations and she seems to show a lot of willingness to help
us with our negotiations. We know that her time is busy, she is a great help.
Interviewer #1 – Okay, and she's been fairly good at getting the results for [Iwi-X]?
Interviewee#3 – It’s at times slow coming forward, but there's reasons for that and in terms of her main
role, I guess, is to look at the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement issues with the Hawkes Bay Regional Council and with
DoC. my personal opinion, I feel like DoC’s a lot of, the head office, DoC’s not a very easy group to get
along with. They are pretty rigid in their thinking. The Hawkes Bay Regional Council, well, we're still
waiting on a decision from the councillors as to whether they will accept the proposal given to them by
[X] of a regional planning committee.
.....................
The Wairua Council are very supportive because there are a lot of Crown land that was taken for use
some years back that are now, ... now they're available to return, for return and that's our dealings with
the Wairua District Council so there's quite a few bits of land that the Wairua District Council are making
available and we have concerns about the Waihua River and I think Wairua was very confident, help us
sort of look after, help us with those concerns. Apart from that, our main, the main group is the Hawkes
Bay Regional Council, then the Hastings District Council, then the Napier District Council, we haven't had
a relationship with. We don't see the need there. Hastings District Council, in terms of our wider area
interests, that's south of the Waikari River. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Okay and you mentioned the Department of Conservation were fairly rigid and of-
Interviewee #3- We get on well with the local staff. I mean I must admit I've got no problems with the
local staff. It's just that the main person we deal with in our negotiations from the head office is very
difficult and we are still working on the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement regime, but we are making sure that we will get
most of what we want anyway. So we won't settle unless we are happy with what’s in the co<strong>mana</strong>gement
regime and DoC. It's in draft at the moment. I think we will get there
.....................
there has been the odd discussion with the Ministry of Fisheries personnel but I'm sort of not aware
what has, since the foreshore and seabed review there has been very little happening in that area.
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We're still waiting for a response from the Crown. Hopefully the Minister might be able to give us some
response at the end of this week as to where we can go. – Interviewee #3
.....................
We’ve had problems even getting ownership of the hangi stones. That's an issue that we've been
fighting. We own the hangi stones but- ... It's part of gravel, you know, who owns the gravel?
(Waihua?) River, if you own the bed of the river, I suppose you own the gravel and the hangi stones are
included as gravel. ... I think we're gradually having success there that we will end up having control over
the allocation of gravel and that's going to be part of co-<strong>mana</strong>gement. The good thing about this
Regional Planning Committee, I think it's more than co-<strong>mana</strong>gement, basically co-governance because
that's where we wanted to have a say, is in governance and that's why some councillors I think are
reluctant to give away that- ... that power, I suppose, governance power. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Yeah you had to prove your, you know, that you occupy, not only that, they are asking questions like,
‘How much sand would you take or,’ you know, (ata?) pools or as far as we're concerned, we take it on a
needs basis. Whenever the need was, we’d go down there and take whatever, barrel of sand or pumice
and they say, ‘Well can't you put it into bucketfuls or travel loads or-.’ So it was quite a ridiculous sort of
hearing, really. You had to justify how much in terms of quantity. – Interviewee #3
.....................
Interviewer #1 - What level of support you get from District Council, regional counsel or government
departments like DoC or Ministry of Fisheries?
Interviewee#4 - District Council, there's something I wanted to say but I actually can't say it. We, what
support did we get? Basically, one of those ‘leave us alone’ things. We just do what we want, you
know, but also from the District Council, we got, I just asked them to print off because a lot of things we
had to print off our brochures and that and he's like, (?) ‘Okay, I'll put them through my photocopier,’
typed up. I don't know how well they were put, whether they recognised or anything, but they printed
off basically anything that we needed. Once you get the message out.
Interviewer #1 – Did Hawkes Bay Regional Counsel help?
Interviewee#4 – No, no, they didn't even, no.
Interviewer #1 – Department of Conservation?
Interviewee #4– No, they had no money, well council didn't have the money. They are too worried
about where wastewater is going
Interviewer #1– What about Ministry of Fisheries?
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Interviewee #4– Well there is that project that they sponsored, but that's really got nothing to do with
MCMS. That research thing with, to apply for that but that wasn't to do the research, that was to do
character-wise customary fishing of Mahia. So that was more or less Waitangi about to it, but not about
MCMS. Support? They liked it. They liked the concept. Oh no, we did go down south, they flew me
and [X] down so they supported us, flying us around and feeding us when we went down to Nelson and
they wanted to have a look at it and see how it could fit in, I've still got all those papers too, how it could
fit into what we were doing. They did try and help...
.....................
I'm not demoting Ministry of Fisheries’ policies or anything like that because they can work. You just
have to make them work. – Interviewee #4
.....................
it’s our birthright to look after ourselves and each other and the more legislation that was being written,
the less we were involved in the picture. – Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewee #5- Actually there wasn’t anyone from regional district-
Interviewer #1 – Okay, no one from the councils-
Interviewee #5– No. Part of the implementation plan is looking at how we relate to other agencies so
we haven’t got to that yet. Sorry, so support from MFish, yes, we went out of budget in the original Ki
Uta Ki Tai strategic planning phase so MFish were awesome in contributing. Their original budget was
$100 Grand. There was 25 offered and accepted by MFish to work on <strong>moana</strong>, Asset Holding Company
and NKII. Because we went over budget then we’ve approached other people in some capacity and AFL
has offered to assist on the grounds that it’s the hapū who invite them onboard and AFL are ready to
rock to assist.
Interviewer #1 – Okay, so not only cash there, right, they’ve been contributing analysts and tohunga
from the various departments-
Interviewee#5 – Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong> is very interested because we have been informed that there’s no
such effort elsewhere in the motu so our whole purpose
.....................
We don’t want to be splintered factions torn apart by different pieces of legislation. We want to be
integrated in the fishery and integrated as people. We owe it to ourselves. – Interviewee #5
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Māori commercial fishing rights. I mean, what is that?
Interviewee #5– by the legislation. Well who’s defining that? It’s not us. Some policy analyst in an
office, somewhere.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - what was the level of support you got from local government people?
Interviewee #6 – No good (except for what we were?) talking about with [X]
Interviewer #1 – [X] was the man?
202

Interviewee#6 - Yeah and there was a-
Interviewee #7– There was extension services
Interviewee#6 - I think there was a lady from Wellington too,
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #6 – Yeah there was
Interviewee #7 – A little bit
Interviewee #6 – Yeah there was a lady that would come up, fly to Napier from the Ministry-
Interviewer #1 – [X]?
Interviewee #6 – Yeah
Interviewee #7– Or [X] She was from (spatial?) She used to work for [X]
Interviewee #6 – Yeah and then she went overseas, [X].
Interviewer #1 - So was [X] quite useful?
Interviewee #7 – She went to DoC
Interviewee#6 – Oh to DoC, yeah they were all very good, but the main, the key person was [X].
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So what are the barriers, what have you found are the barriers to achieving your
objectives?
Interviewee #7 – Government [laughs] government
Interviewer #1 – Any particular department of the government? Or those south of (Plymouthon?)
Interviewee#6 - You know, for me, it's looking for that partnership of the Treaty and it wasn't there
Interviewee #7 - Ministers who don't understand, CEs who don't understand, officials that don't
understand.
Interviewer #1 – Don’t understand partnership?
Interviewee #7 – Yeah
Interviewer #1 – And the reason why a kaitiaki would apply for this?
Interviewee #7 – Yeah
.....................
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Interviewee #7- The thing that I've noticed with [X] is he does contact the commercial sector for more
information and he does ring them up and let them know like about the re-consultation and that and
because of that communication, I suppose, it's open or giving the commercial sector more information,
you know, they are more informed and then the commercial sector has turned around and used that
information against the Lands Trust as the applicants. Like the example with [X], how even before the
notice was re-advertised for the second load of consultation, that was coming out the following day, but
[X] rang commercial, I suppose it would've been [X] because he's got a good relationship with [X] and he
told him that the application was going to be re-advertised and then [X] is ringing up the Ministry saying
that the Lands Trust isn’t the mandated body that, yeah, so it's giving the commercial, like [X] was giving
the commercial sector kind of a means to kind of use, a means to set <strong>tangata</strong> whenua against <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua.
Interviewer #1 - So government official creating war-
Interviewee#7 – He may not have been intending to but that's how the commercial sector can use
information like that. Yeah, and so it makes it unfair in terms for us because we are having to therefore
turn around and justify to [X] why the Lands Trust applied.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So quite a bit of effort by the Ministry to talk to commercial operators. How many
times does the Ministry contact you a year, like say the spatial allocations team? Are they ringing you
every month to give you an update on the progress of your application?
Interviewee#6 – No, it laid somewhere and before [X] was appointed as a (Fishery?) personnel and then
we progressed another step and then they started to send, you know, these workers. Oh, they
communicated and then probably, it's sort of like a hot iron. As long as it was hot for that period of
time, well there would be action and requests and then there'd be a response to that request and then
it would just, because the iron's gone cold and that's what it was sort of like
.....................
It's actually Clause 33 of the Customary Fishing Regulation and it says, ‘Assistance to <strong>tangata</strong> kaitiaki,’
and many a times we've asked for that and I can say that Te Kupenga forum has asked and we never
ever got it. – Interviewee #6
.....................
we are to amalgamate and there's only the one 20K. Where’s this bloody partnership and all that sort of
thing? ... they hold the purse strings and then they got the audacity to return to treasury something like
12 million, unspent because they didn't have a place, ... unspent-... didn't employ the people for those
specific roles yet and they're telling us they don't have the resource. – Interviewee #6
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So did the Environment Waikato do a water testing or do anything in terms of riverbank
restoration?
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Interviewee #8– No, they didn't and they didn't because we were still new, we didn't know what we
wanted.
Interviewer #1 – Have they attended any committee meetings at all?
Interviewee#8 – They have, yes, they have done and they've asked to be notified when we are having
them so that they can attend and share whatever it is that might be going on and how we might be able
to work together, so yes, they have been.
.....................
there needs to be agency involvement through an understanding of how all parties should work
together and I think, and I know it's important that everyone understands who has the final say at the
end of the day to the area that you're going to be looking after and <strong>mana</strong>ging so that there can be a
working relationship between all parties because if those of us who are gazetted and mandated by our
maraes, which is how we are set up in Aotea, – Interviewee #8
.....................
I believe that we need to have a relationship where there is an understanding that we have the last say
at the end of the day. We need to be understood that it's our direction as to how we believe it should
be looked after with some advice from those who can provide it and how we're going to be looking after
that area and providing in restoring it and maintaining it and the other agencies to have a role to play
because we don't have the research skills. We don't have the survey skills. We don't have some times,
knowledge on how to write reports and documents when we're wanting to make things happen so we
need to have relationships with those agencies who can support us with that, but it's how that
relationship is understood and agreed to is important. – Interviewee #8
.....................
I don’t have a lot of respect for the Ministry of Fisheries. They had no, as I said to you, they had no
policies, no nothing, they were just so badly informed and so slow to do anything and I think the reason
for that was we were creating a new business. They asked us and my husband contributed to the
legislation for aquaculture in terms of Māori, in terms of the Māori development. We were never
acknowledged or thanked or anything– Interviewee #9
.....................
Yeah we were very disappointed with the support that we’d had from government agencies, given that
the crayfish exports are New Zealand’s second highest earner. We had absolutely no funding from, we
did have one lot of funding and that came from FRST, but look, that was, that’s history in itself. We
made three applications and each time the door was shut. – Interviewee #9
.....................
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I think it was 33 broods of paua, brood-stock, for over $3,000 and we had to do that. The law required
us to do that instead of being able to just go and take the pāuas out of the sea right outside my house.
We weren’t allowed to do it. As I said to you, we had to be careful because we didn’t want to lose our
licence or anything like that and MFish were on our back every inch of the way. They actually raided our
farm four times; never came up with a thing. They all had uniforms on and guns and everything else
when they came down. I don’t know who they thought they were attacking or they were going to raid
and I used to- I hated them. In the end I just grew to hate them and of course you just don’t get
anywhere hating people really at the end of the day, but I just despised them for what they did to us. –
Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee #9 - Well, okay, right, Te Puni Kōkiri were absolutely hopeless. They visited our farm at least
five or six times, ... But none of them had the intellect to understand, no put it, it’s true, to understand
exactly what we were doing, none of them. We never got an ounce of help from them because- ...
Interviewee #10 – ... What happened is they’ll say, ‘Oh, go to Te Ohu Kai<strong>moana</strong>,’ and they say, ‘Oh, go
to Ministry of Economic Development,’ and they’ll say, ‘Go to…’ and so you have this big. ‘Go to Hauraki
Māori Trust Board. Oh, go to…’ and it goes in a big circle and then you’re back to square one.
Interviewee #9– Back to hopeless Te Puni Kōkiri.
Interviewee #10– And Te Puni Kōkiri, they come in and they said, I said, ‘Have you guys got any (?) in?’
‘No.’ ‘Well what do you do?’ ‘Oh, we give advice.’ ‘Oh what sort of advice can you give me about
aquaculture?’ ‘Oh aquaculture, we thought you said ‘agriculture,’ ‘Oh, okay, well thanks for that, see
ya.’
Interviewee#9– These were the sort of answers we got from the staff at Te Puni Kōkiri and as for
government agencies, no, there was nothing from the TCDC
.....................
So I can’t expect to ask the TCDC for help. I can’t. – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So nothing, so the Thames District Council had no interest-
Interviewee #9 – No input.
Interviewer #1 – What about your Waikato Regional Council?
Interviewee #9 – Oh, yeah they did. I would eventually pay the Waikato Regional Council for drawing
the water because in the back of my mind I always knew if we were successful and I wanted to export
my crayfish I had to have some form of legality, you understand? So I agreed to pay drawing water from
my <strong>moana</strong>.
Interviewee #10– Drawing your own water off your own land.
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Interviewer #1 – So you agreed to-
Interviewee #9 – I agreed to pay the Waikato Regional Council, I think it was 800 and something dollars
a year to draw water from my own <strong>moana</strong>. ... From the sea onto my land, which was mine. I’ve got
coastal property, you see?
Interviewee #10 – Yeah the other charges were to lay pipes because the pipes were laid what they
thought was private property.
Interviewer #1 – From Waikato Regional?
Interviewee #9– Yeah
Interviewee #10 –Yeah, they thought we had pipes on public property but they didn’t realise that we
owned it.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Okay, and so finally, what about MFish? What do they? Did they have an aquaculture
team to help-
Interviewee #9– Never. They didn’t, nothing. MFish on the same hand, too, I viewed them the same as I
viewed Te Puni Kōkiri. They were brainless. They would come onto the property and you know, all guns
drawn in all their uniforms and they never ever got anything on us.
.....................
Interviewee #9 -Totally out of their comfort zone, you know, as with MFish, as with Te Puni Kōkiri. All
the people that got various government departments sent to us for help were hopeless because they
didn’t know what we were trying to do.
Interviewee #10 – TCDC’s got the reputation as being the worst council in New Zealand.
Interviewee #9 – In New Zealand.
.....................
In the end I just got to hate all the authorities. I just got to hate everybody. It was just so frustrating. –
Interviewee #9
.....................
so there was zilch support from the government and apart from that FRST funding that we got and we
were all made to share. We all, no, I’m wrong there too because there were times when we made an
application, I think it was to CIGs and remember we got [X] to come and work, but they were only six
week projects, you know, I mean, ‘Hello.’ – Interviewee #9
.....................
Interviewee#9 - Well, we did sell crayfish and MeF came in again to put the water in, ‘Hang on, you need
to have a licence to sell crayfish and you’ve got to have big,’ What was it? ‘You’ve got to sell big
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crayfish.’ First of all, Tauranga stopped us from selling crayfish and then we wrote a letter to the
Minister of Fisheries, who told Tauranga to back off us.
Interviewer #1 – Tauranga who, council or Tauranga MFish?
Interviewee #9– MeF, Tauranga MeF, because anything Whitianga couldn’t cope with, they went to
Tauranga, but of course, we had in Auckland, it was good. Now there was a fellow called Les there.
Now he was really very- ... Now he was very good. ... it was just the compliance boys that came around
in the uniforms and guns, there were guns blazing that I didn’t like. I objected to them and they got
nothing.
.....................
Interviewee #9 - one occasion I might tell you about MeF too that we were having our 50 th birthday at
the marae. Was it our birthday? Alright, it was some function at the marae anyway.
Interviewee #10 – The marae would always ask us to store our customary-
Interviewee #9 – Customary, yeah [cross-dialogue]
Interviewee #10 –We’d say, ‘No, we’re not allowed because it’s a part of our fish farm licence.’ And then
they’d say, ‘You’re so mean.’ But then we rung up the Auckland office. I don’t know who it was on the
phone, and they said, ‘Yes, sweet as you can, just put the permit on the tank.’ So we did that.
Interviewee #9 –Just label what it is.
Interviewee #10– So we put it on the tank and keep it separate from the other food, anyway, MeF rung
up the office and says, ‘You’re not allowed to do that. It’s part of your-‘
Interviewee #9 – Fish for the fish farm licence
Interviewee #10 – But we rang the office-
Interviewee #9–The Auckland branch-
Interviewee #10– ‘Who did you speak to?’ ‘Don’t know. We just asked whoever it was on the phone.’
Interviewee #9 – Yeah see, A didn’t know what B and C were doing and that’s what I say, there was no
communication or no direct policy for the three branches of MeF.
.....................
Yeah I find that upsetting when you see the newspaper and public attitude is that if you’re Māori and
you’re in aquaculture the money gets thrown at you. That there is that perception that Te Ohu
Kai<strong>moana</strong> will support, the Hauraki Māori Trust Board will support, Te Puni Kōkiri will support, there’s all
this money, CEGs will give you money and we couldn’t find it. We found little bits every now and again.
It feels like a lifeline at the time. – Interviewee #10
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.....................
Interviewee #9 - What was that thing with MeF over, they raided our farm and it was the wrong farm.
This was another time with MeF.
Interviewee #10 – Yeah, they said that we hadn’t reported any, we hadn’t done any of our fish transfers
for 12 months so they wanted to see our paperwork ... so I had one book of all of the work and one book
of the receipts... so I just printed the receipt out ... So when they came I said, ‘So there’s all the
paperwork and there’s the book of receipts,’ and they went away and they actually came back, ...
actually the scientist or the investigator, he was just thumbing through it and I could hear him saying to
the officer, ‘Hey, this guys records here are immaculate. What do you mean? He’s even got the receipts
to say that they’ve gone. What are you talking about?’
.....................
in our Deed of Settlement there's this Paepae Rangatira, (paepae whakapakari?) relationship protocol.
Paepae Rangatira allows Ngā Rauru Rangatira to meet with the Crown’s Rangatira annually. The
objective of that protocol is to talk about the health of the relationship under the Treaty and also to
discuss issues of importance, both for the Crown and for Ngā Rauru. ... On the other hand, Paepae
(whakapakari?) allows CEO-to-CEO interaction to ensure that the issues are sorted out or development
aspirations are sorted out to move forward so we had a direct line, so to speak, to Ministers. –
Interviewee #11
.....................
it's the first of its kind and it really stemmed from a comment that the Minister, Margaret Wilson, made
in trying to encourage us to sign the Deed of Settlement. She said, ‘You will be better off for this.’ So [X]
as the chief negotiator asked the question, ‘So please tell me how that would be?’ The Minister was a
bit vague about how that would be so we asked her whether we could go away and think about this and
bring back a model, if you like, that would show that post-settlement there would be both the
government and the iwi would be better off and I've got to take my hat off to [X], who's very good at
designing such protocols. So [X] was really the architect of Paepae Rangatira, Paepae (whakapakari?)
that allows us direct access to political things. Also we are not (overly?) situated. We're very close.
(Wanonga?) ties with (Tirianga?) and most of the Māori MPs anyway, so yeah, they are all helpful. –
Interviewee #11
.....................
it [Paepae (whakapakari?)] hasn't worked all that well, I must say, because there's always a reason why
they can't meet with us ... we threatened that they were actually breaching the protocol, that we would
want to re-litigate a contemporary breach. That actually brought them to the table ... – Interviewee #11
.....................
I think that Paepae (whakapakari?) is actually not generally understood very well by government
departments. ... (Pariko Horimia?) did make a Reference to Paepae Rangatira, Paepae (whakapakari?)
and he hoped that similar protocols worked better than the first one. Post his comments we did write
to him and say that there's two sides to making these partnerships and protocols work, Mr. Horomia,
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and one of them is your availability. So I think there's still some work to be done in Paepae Rangatira,
Paepae (whakapakari?) but fundamentally, the philosophy behind those protocols are very good. –
Interviewee #11
.....................
MFish were great for the development of the Te Pātaka o Tangaroa fish plan or iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plan,
whatever they call it. Taranaki Regional Council, interesting, as an outcome of the Deed of Settlement
protocols with local government, there's an urging to have MoU between iwi and local government.
Quite shortly after we settled we met with the two district councils, which is South Taranaki District
Council, the Wanganui District Council, the two regional councils that bisect our rohe, that's <strong>Mana</strong>watu
Wanganui Regional Council and Taranaki Regional Council, to encourage a MoU to be signed in terms of
how relationships would go. What we found is that all those MoUs or relationship documents were
one-dimensional in favour of local governments. I can recall and so does the CEO of Taranaki Regional
Council me throwing that MoU back at him and I said that, ‘We need a proper partnership document.’
And to his, to Basil Chamberlain’s credit he held off, came back with quite a good document. ... with the
running along with our environmental plan is a software program for progressing resource consents so
we hold in [iwi-X] all of the wāhi tapu sites...one thing settlement has done is allowed us to make it
electronic, or moving down the track to make it electronic. So your question about how much support
that we got from local government and central government, quite a, as much as we wanted actually and
I just think that sometimes iwi don't know how to ask or what to ask for but we were pretty clear about
what we needed. – Interviewee #11
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So the local government agencies in particular, they tried to put forward a person to sit
alongside-
Interviewee #11– Yeah, yeah
Interviewer #1 – Your writer and that worked out well, that relationship?
Interviewee #11– Yeah, it was okay, you know. It's just that there was fundamental difference in views
but by and large the intention was great.
Interviewer #1 – Because your local government person would come quite hard from an RMA or Local
Government Act, regional view-
Interviewee#11 – Yeah and we understand that, yeah and we understand that because they are actually
administering L-A-W and we're saying that’s fine but you will find in the revamped version of the RMA it
also talks about <strong>tangata</strong> whenua, how you are giving effect to that. Let us tell you how that could be.
And I think that once they got the idea that we were actually helping them to give effect to a piece of
statute, they were great.
.....................
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it was actually a part of our overall iwi plan that we would get to this particular point and we would
develop an iwi environmental <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. It’s come out of a project that we’ve subscribed with
Te Puni Kōkiri for three years. ... TPK have paid us, yeah, they have, actually. What they pay, what TPK
paid for is a project <strong>mana</strong>ger and some project outputs. I can’t remember the first year of funding. I
think it was about 80K the first year of funding. This last round of funding was around 124 and I’m not
sure what the next round of funding will be about. – Interviewee #13
.....................
traditionally, our old people would just stand outside their backdoor basically and fish, but now you
actually have to have a licence to fish and I understand that the licences cost $90 for a child or a 140 for
a family. Now, that’s actually not easy to come by, so the Te Arawa Trust Board, what they do is they
give an allocation per iwi, ...some of our guys that go to collect the kai for tangi and stuff, nine times out
of ten don’t hold licences, have always (mahi’ed?) kai for the marae and for their families and politically
they’re called ‘poachers,’ you know, but for us, they’re actually part of our pātaka kai because they’re
not just get the fish, they get the wild pork. They’re the guys that are there boning the meat, if we need
it, you know? There’s that whole tikanga aspect that we’re now trying to be in (wanahau?) about that
because our boys are saying, ‘I got a $2000 fine for poaching off your river.’ And we know that that’s
our river, but they’re making their point and I think, ‘How do we support that?’ because now that’s
$2000 that’s not going to our families, that’s having to go to a whole other court system and stuff so
that’s just something else I want to raise. It’s kind of like, ‘Watch that space.’ – Interviewee #13
.....................
Interviewee #14- In terms of the taiāpure we worked alongside MoF at the time,... But in terms of the
taiāpure, the Te Arawa Board did work with the local authorities because it helps you in terms of
working under the Waitangi Fisheries legislation, I think is what it’s called. The Settlements Agreement
legislation-
Interviewer #1 – Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Settlement Act, 1992
Interviewee #14– Yeah the Waitangi Fisheries Act, that’s it. So we had to work with those boards
anyway. In terms of [iwi-X] we’ve had (nought?) one of the reasons for that is that we actually sit on the
Te Arawa Trust Board and we had have since its inception so a lot of, in terms of working on the lake and
with waterways went through that body and so the local marae groups never ever heard anything
unless you had a really good trustee on that board who was quite open to reporting back and we had
one on our (?) in terms of Uncle Sam. He reported back consistently, but then to say we had any
feedback on <strong>mana</strong>gement or discussion with them, I guess they needed to do some consultation with
tribal groups. It’s about the only time we ever heard from them in terms of the awa. It wasn’t until we
took them to the case in environment court ... when the right resource permit or consent ran out for
RDC was when we first started being approached, in terms of the river and we had been waiting for ten
years from, or longer when the actual Resource <strong>Mana</strong>gement Act had and basically what the local
authorities of that era did was just leapfrogged into it and said, ‘Oh, well we still have the right.’ We got
water in, got a, they went a bit quicker than us, basically and got the resource consent sorted before we
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could contest it so we had to wait until 2001to contest it as part of a rollover and then set down a
resource consent. Up to that date, I don’t remember one time they were coming out, I went to all of
their meetings, maybe you know, my dear, but I don’t remember anyone coming out to talk to us ...
.....................
Interviewee #13 - It wasn’t the Environment Bay of Plenty and the regional council was made up of
more engineers and technical type people. Do you remember that?
Interviewer #1 – Not at the time.
Interviewee #13 – Well, your community activity or something-
Interviewee #14 – [cross-dialogue] Nowadays they can have issues with it-
Interviewee #13 – But they weren’t really community orientated-type bureaucracy that you could
approach.
Interviewee#14 – They were if you said ‘yes’ to them.
Interviewee#13 – And I can remember even the old people saying, ‘Oh we won’t ring them because
they’re a (toku?) because they’re also based in Whakatane.’ So it was all the economics around dealing
with the politics as well. ... Everything was done voluntary so if you ring up the district council, regional
council, then you paid for that (toku?) yourself. That sort of mentality.
.....................
Interviewee #14- It’s even better than that. It’s come to a point where [X] and myself receive invites to
attend those, if there’s an EBoP meeting around water, we’ll get invites and then we can pass it on to
our CEO. We’re on a first name basis with the CEOs, not so much the CEOs, but the GMs and then their
environmental people, field people, as well so there’s [X] who’s in contact with us around the lake
strategies.
Interviewer #1 – Will they contribute to the costs of getting [iwi-X] representatives to, and their consent
processes?
Interviewee#14 – Depending on what it is. They have. I won’t guarantee they’ll do it all the time, but
they have.
.....................
EBoP was trying to get this culture created where they go out to each rohe in the Environment Bay of
Plenty Community, they will go out and they will run a marae hui once a month and about two months
ago they ran their marae hui at (Taremaunga?) and they had a hui in the area. From that particular hui,
before that hui started, they wrote to [X] and asked if she would do a presentation about the
environmental concerns relating to the organisation and the rohe. So [X] did a 25 page Power Point and
just hammered all these particular areas. Well, they got up. They admitted that were a little bit bruised
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and battered because they had just got the crank, is what they termed it. They said they will take our
information away and they will be in touch with us about a week to two later. Two weeks later they got
in touch to invite us to go along to the planning session with their <strong>mana</strong>gers in the organisation to
actually present our iwi Environment <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plan and to provide some in-service training about
how those <strong>mana</strong>gers could work with this plan and work with iwi and that. – Interviewee #13
.....................
the farmers are protected still, you know, from that 1950s era so with Environment Bay of Plenty, for
instance, they take precedent, the farmers take precedence because they (Environment BOP) are there
to look after the river and drainage scheme mandated by government, so they(Environment BOP) look
after them. They actually prepare submissions on their behalf to other people and even to Environment
Bay of Plenty itself, the river and drainage scheme have precedence over <strong>tangata</strong> whenua so really it all
comes down to a lack of political power. It's, fight it all the way trying to get things done ... And so we
took back the name recently. Ongataro is the name of the estuary so the Environment Bay of Plenty has
finally listened to the people that we don't know how it's going to pay and so yes they agreed to the
return of the river and there's a huge plan around that how to restore the river, the remaining wetlands,
all that sort of stuff, but that's all about trying to bring back, that's all about being kaitiaki because we've
got nothing so we've got to restore it all we've got to put it back. – Interviewee #15
.....................
they actually brought 4 councils together because our areas (Maketu and the Kaituna River) are
impacted on by 4 councils, Environment Bay of Plenty, Tauranga City Council, Western Bay and Rotorua.
They all impact on Maketu via the Kaituna River so we had them all on board cooperating as well and
the planner’s finished and the plan they've launched now but there's money in the 10 year budget,
Environment Bay of Plenty to do their part, which is the major part. The other councils, I must say, the
ones who did the most and they had the littlest regard, they haven't put their hands in their pockets yet
and the biggest is Rotorua with their paru coming down the Kaituna River. They haven't put their hand
in their pocket ... Te Arawa Lakes Trust has offered the (kawa?) raupō what’s left of the, which is quite a
substantial area. It's a rundown sort of the wetlands. They've offered that back to support the strategy,
to support change and Environment Bay of Plenty is looking at well, Western Bay, I suppose to be,
looking at it to restore it. I'm sure it will end up Environment Bay of Plenty because you know, that's in
their kaupapa to do it, but Western Bay, as part of their commitment have got a plan developed, but I
think their idea for regenerating the raupō is so that they can use it to put their water from the
sewerage system in. So I think they have got a different agenda. They're going to use it for filtering
their water but no, that's the Te Arawa Lakes Trust, they're prepared to donate big time-– Interviewee
#15
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So you've got a strategy in place?
Interviewee #15- Well that's the Environment Bay of Plenty’s one, strategy which we all contributed to.
.....................
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Interviewer #1 - Have the agencies, do they take notice of the taiāpure committee’s plan? Do they have
copies of it? Do they quote it on occasion?
Interviewee #15– Yeah
Interviewer #1 – Do they pay it respect when they're cruising through here with the water plan, consent
hearing or something?
Interviewee #15- It's getting better, I mean we've had to, they know it's there but we have had to make
sure it's in front of them. So if we just didn't say anything about it, probably they wouldn't give it much
more than they had to but we keep putting it in their face and they do take notice of it.
.....................
Well at that time one of the things that our elders told us is we could never beat the Ministry of
Fisheries from the outside. They said a lot of people are going to misinterpret us and because the new
kai<strong>moana</strong> regulations came out, these old fellows said, ‘We need to get in there and work within the law
and get what we want. Otherwise, if we keep waiting, we’re going to miss out and then we’ll have to
take what they give us.’ So these old fellows were pretty far thinking and they were a hell of a lot (?) At
that time we had help from the Ministry of Fisheries which was the Māori liaison officers and that was
[X]. From Nelson we had [X] and [X]- oh gee I forgot her last name – they were really a good help, but
then we were the first, besides Ngāti Konohi to go down this road and once we had gazetted and we
were the first in New Zealand in the North Island with Ngāti Konohi– Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewer #1 - So the Ministry’s process didn’t even prepare the wider public very well, did it?
Interviewee #16– Well it didn’t prepare anybody, you know. We knew we were going to get it sooner or
later, that was okay, but they rang us up at lunchtime and said, ‘Everybody’s got to get out,’ and I said,
‘Oh give them a couple of days to remove their pots or do their thing. Let’s not just (?).’ Said, ‘No, that’s
the law.’ And I said, ‘Well, give them a couple of days to get out.’ And they rang up every (?) and said,
‘No, you got to pull everything out. Get out now.’ And I said, ‘That makes us fucking look stink.’ That’s
how bad it looked.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - I think that is a point, [X], in that you get painted as the hero or the villain as part of this
process and that’s unfair because once the mātaitai’s in, you still have to <strong>mana</strong>ge that community
expectation, the relationships, whereas the Ministry guys come and go from having a role in that.
Interviewee #16– Well they come and go, most of them bloody go, but the thing with it was that
compliance had to go and I said, ‘Just give them a day.’ It’s in their mind to tell them, ‘You have until
tomorrow afternoon to get out and, don’t go roaring out. Get out now because those Māoris got their
bloody mātaitai.’ I said, ‘That’s bullshit,’ and they kept pushing up the law, the law this and I said, ‘Mate,
the law isn’t going to prosecute some bugger who’s still picking up his things tomorrow.’ I says, ‘You’re
never going to win that case. So what the hell, just give them a couple of days and let them be.’ I said,
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‘If they’re there next week, then prosecute them,’ and that was it and we got it on about a Tuesday or a
Wednesday, I think and I couldn’t believe how stupid the Ministry was. I said, ‘Just inform them, let
them move out and then that’s it.’ ... See, I took to the Ministry what we were going to do was get a
commercial fellow and we were going to offer to take his by catch. They tried to stop us. I said, ‘No
(by/buy the permit?) from him and we’ll take all his by catch
.....................
Now our compliance, you don’t see them. They’re like assholes now. Can’t even talk to them. So that’s
gone. They’ve gone back into their shell and they don’t catch very many bloody people, which is
terrible. ... no one trusts them anymore. Once upon a time, they were good. They would all go out and
help them, ... – Interviewee #16
.....................
The barrier for me for mātaitai was actually the government waiting for it to go through you had to mind
the people to work as they were helping you, they were good. After them there was their bloody
bosses, like the [X]s of the world. He’s a two-timing c**t that. I saw him at, we had a meeting, we
invited him and I said, ‘Where’s my mātaitai?’ He said, ‘We’ll look into it. We’ll fix it up.’ We never
heard from that bastard again. ... Yeah, well one was, who was a [X]. He’s another two-timer who, we
got too many forked tongues in the, it’s unbelievable. And these are the old ones. You need to get rid
of them. I like McPhee. He’ll tell you straight up, straight to your face. That’s why I liked Heatley the
Minister, before he became Minister. ... you accommodated them and then you were waiting for the
next 20 bloody years. – Interviewee #16
.....................
Interviewee #17- Well, actually (?) we wrote the plan mainly to set some benchmarks. We served it up
to the Council and presented it to them. They accepted it and we knew they couldn't refuse it because
it was coming from bottom up and it was from hapū and they had obligations to receive it. So we first
put it into the Far North District Council. We then went to the Northern Regional Council and presented
it there. We presented it to the Department of Conservation. We presented it to Horomia.
Interviewer #1 – As the then-Minister of Māori Affairs?
Interviewee #17– Yeah. And that was really to give it a status in the minds of those agencies.
Interviewer #1– Did the Regional Council, Department of Conservation and Minister of Maori Affairs, did
they, apart from saying, ‘Thank you very much,’ did they say, ‘We won't-‘ Did they endorse it with some
kind of legislative-
Interviewee #17– No, not really. I think that the legislation was already sitting there.
.....................
I just wrote these notes here. NIWA catch levels, a customary permit to (reckon?) the actual counts and
charter filings, you know, all of those things add up to understanding what's going on down there and
they need to be matched up with our customary indicators so that we do have some technical support
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for what we're seeing. It's not just us, a bunch of Māoris jumping up and down and stamping their feet,
which has been the case in the past. So the dependence on sound data was really important because
then you could engage the MinFishes and the DoCs and the councils- ... and then you can engage them
and start getting things at least on the table and hopefully resolved. It's also important though that the
people who are driving it know exactly what they are doing ... – Interviewee #17
.....................
Interviewee#18 - really the probably biggest significant influence on that has been the local authorities
and I guess, the disconnection between the iwi and the local authorities historically in that there were
no dialogue between them to, for us to share the loss of those resources and also, I guess, they had no
taringa at the time to hear any of the kōrero so thankfully that’s starting to change but yeah, that’s a
huge question. I think it boils down to the loss of rangatiratanga over the ability to control the land and
what it was used for which has created the situation we have now.
Interviewer #1 – Was there repeated attempts by the tūpuna of Rangiwewehi (mia ratua te arawa?) to
get in the face of the local authorities, I guess the old barrow councils, county councils, those kind of
things?
Interviewee#18 – Yes, there was a lot of history here around that. Environment Court is probably the
taumata of that whole hīkoi where back in 1966 when the main puna was taken out of the puna reserve
up at the springs, Taniwha Springs, 2007 when we had Environment Court, that’s been the length of
time that whole (taki?) has been biding away at the iwi and it had a huge impact on the health of the
people because [iwi-X] said the awa is there lifeblood and when that was played with in that negative
way it kicked the stuffing out of the people and as, yeah in the past I’ve heard heaps of people go, ‘Ah
yeah, they let their springs fall to bits,’ and, ‘Oh, the iwi didn’t look after that,’ and my response to that
kōrero is when you’ve had the stuffing kicked out of you like they did, you know, it took a long time to
get up off your legs and stand up and I mean as a people, and we’re talking you know, if not years,
decades, that’s the level of psychological impact that that taking had and it really reflects the
significance of the puna to [iwi-X]. You didn’t just mess with an awa, you messed with the heartbeat of
the people and it showed. It really did show and so I get hōhā with that sort of kōrero because it also
reflects the time that our tūpuna were living where things Māori were given no credence anyway. So it
was really hard to fight something that wasn’t given any due respect, you know, so yeah, that’s how I
see it in that respect. They did their best, however, they were living in a climate that wasn’t
appreciative of what they could have, they could offer, unfortunately, and I guess that’s where we’re
lucky, this generation, we are able to talk with the authorities because they do have a set of ears now
through those processes such, through the RMA and things like that that have accorded some rights to
our ways. It still could be improved, but it’s better than the situation our tūpuna were in.
.....................
there’s no trust relationship, I think everything revolves around relationships whether they be good or
bad. It’s always about a relationship and until you have a good relationship with somebody they’re
reluctant to trust and it takes trust to release power and control. Also the district councils of the old
barrow councils were developed or created under a regime where there’s no consideration to things
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Māori so that still lingers in the councils. You still have that mindset it seems. It’s like an
institutionalised thing whereas you’ll find regional councils are brilliant because they were born out of
the RMA, which required them to give accord to things Māori so from the outset they have been open
and embracing things Māori. That’s part of their institutionalised philosophy. ... we’re only just coming
to a place of relating in a good way and that’s been through the Treaty settlement process. ... until then,
no ... when you lock horns enough with somebody you sort of start developing a healthy respect for
each other? Well I think the council have come to that point of respecting [X] because of our
Environment Court was the penultimate of our clashes and I think although there is a statement (the
REC?) one, I believe we won because they didn’t get anywhere near what they wanted, but we got
recognition of all three points of the Section 6e, 7a, Section 8, first iwi to ever be accorded all three of
those sections in the RMA. – Interviewee #18
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Interviewer #1 – So you could say it took 20 years, well sorry, 17 years and the RMA did deliver from that
perspective?
Interviewee#18 – From that perspective, yes. It took a lot of work and it emptied our coffers.
Interviewer #1 – A 51-year fight I think, 66 onwards
Interviewee #18– Yes, it was worth it though, I mean, you know, we had to borrow from Peter and Paul
and all of that but it was worth it because now we have this healthy respect relationship between us and
the Council and which is now improving because of the (OTS?) push so that’s cool, but yeah I believe,
you see that, the big difference in relationships in regionals and districts and I reckon that’s because of
the hua they come from, the place that they come from. Well that’s how I see it. It’s a fundamental
engrained thing.
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Yeah, I thought it [Waikato River settlement document] was a nice movement because there’s a good
power sharing going on. I don’t know whether it’s my cynical mind that says all still very reluctant to let
the Māoris run the show, you know, there’s a, the weighting was towards the councillors or the council
representation I noticed, so you know, the power sharing is still not equal, but it’s again, better than the
nothing, if you know what I mean. So it’s a work in progress, I’d say. The ultimate is full and total
authority. That’s the ultimate, but really, I think what’s in question is the value-base we run off, you
know, it doesn’t really matter who’s driving. It’s the car they’re driving that counts, you know, so if we
had, it goes back to that whole rights and responsibilities thing, you know, we might all end up in the
power seat but we’re still acting Western in our behaviours and in our way of thinking. So you know,
you could 180 flip that and say, ‘Well we didn’t have too much issue with who was in the driver’s seat if
they were talking our talk and if they were walking our walk,’ you know what I mean? Yeah, so I guess it
goes back to belief systems and values that are driving the way we operate so if all of New Zealand
started acting under our value system we’d be fine. Everything would be fine because everyone would
be acting sustainably and holistically, you know, so it comes back to that philosophical mindset that we
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operate from because we’re all very Westernised and it’s no disrespect to Western society. It’s just an
unsustainable way of living. It’s just the black and white of it ... – Interviewee #18
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Interviewer #1 – Okay, that’s very good kōrero that. Do you think it will ever, you can ever Te Arawa
inside Rotarua inside (Te Rui?), [iwi-X] that will get to that, you can ever, you’re going through the, [iwi-
X]’s going through its agreement and principle phase with the Crown at the moment, do you think
there’s enough there, enough umph really, inside the negotiations to swing the pendulum to that where
there is a greater emphasis on tikanga Māori for running your environment?
Interviewee #18– I’d hate to think that we would need the Crown to teach us how to behave to each
other ... I don’t think that’s the Crown’s responsibility at all. That’s ours and that’s something we need
to sort out, maybe, if anything I find that the Treaty process puts us back in that divide and rule process
again because we start scrapping over bits of whenua and money and things like that and it becomes
about ownership rather than relationships and those two come from two very different belief systems,
you know, ownership is a Western concept. It’s based on individual title, individual tenure and we’re a
collective people that operate from the ‘we’ and so it’s like the ‘I’ versus the ‘we’ and so the Crown
process will always be an ‘I’ process and we’re trying to operate as a ‘we’ so it’s a round hole, square
peg thing and we see it that way. So no, we can’t look to the Crown to be the conduit for that because it
won’t. It’s created the situation we’re in now. It’s not going to fix things because it’s what’s created
that (rahi?) and I mean that with no disrespect at all. It’s just that’s a fact. We need to release ourselves
from our colonising institutionalised Western thinking back to our relationship way of thinking and then
we will be able to get over ourselves and move towards what’s best for the whenua, not what’s best for
me and you or this one or that one. It’s what’s best for the whenua first and if that’s alright then we will
all be alright. So for example, say cross-claims interest, I try not to use the word ‘ownership’ at all in any
of those kōrero because it’s not our (kupu?) I like to use the word our interests, our relationships to a
piece of whenua because everyone has a relationship to all those different cross-claim entities all have a
relationship to that whenua and that’s cool and that’s their right and we must respect that although, I’d
like to see it as if we all have this mad love for this piece of land, what’s bad about that? That’s a good
thing, therefore, let’s put ourselves aside and focus on the aroha te a whenua and we can’t go wrong,
you know, if we put that first then all of our dreams will be met. It’s not to say, ‘Oh we must do what
this iwi wants to do or that one or that one,’ you know, it’s saying we have our own collective
rangatiratanga, but our own tribal authority, what we do in our (??) but how we operate as a collective,
needs to be unified, you know?
.....................
That’s just fear because there’s a lot of ask you know, and at one of our regional council huis Transit
New Zealand were talking about their next round of engagement submissions required and I was just,
‘(?) Oh no, not a damned submission to write,’ you know, and that’s us who are in a resourced office.
What about the cousins who are working out the back room still or having, running out in the wharekai,
you know, how about them? How do they <strong>mana</strong>ge to respond to all these requests for iwi approval, you
know and I really believe that that needs to be resourced because those people are giving up their time
and energy to help your kaupapa you know, because usually it’s about what the Council want. It’s not
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usually about them coming out, ‘Oh we want to give you good lighting and good waste service,’ you
know, usually it’s about a new road to support development or a new something to serve, ... there’s
always a big ask on the time and energy of the iwi or the hapū but there’s no reciprocating support,
whether it even be just send someone out to do writing on our behalf or sit there talk and they write the
damn thing you know. ... we feel in transition, I feel that even Māori are in that transition phase of
moving out of reactive-ness to proactive-ness and that’s where our Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans and things
come into play, but yeah, we’re in transition. So we’re going to get both. We’re becoming proactive,
but we’re still having to react to status quo way of doing things. – Interviewee #18
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Interviewee #18- the whenua is just screaming out, ‘This is not working. This is not working,’ you know,
Western practices have been squeezed into a corner, you know, there’s evidence is out there showing
this is not working. This is not sustainable and this is not good and it’s like, ‘Time to give us the go, man,
you know, you’re backed into a corner. Your ways aren’t working. There’s no more options, give us a
go. What could you lose? You’ve got everything to gain,’ and I think once we share with people we’ve
got to really hold fast to those values of <strong>mana</strong>akitanga, whanaungatanga, and aroha and when we
operate in those values, you when hearts, you win hearts and it’s about winning hearts. It’s about
reaching out in love, not in conflict, reaching out to create a relationship of trust and honesty, you know,
once you’ve got a relationship with someone it’s really hard to say no and it’s really hard to not respect
each other when you like each other and you want to honour each other because you like each other.
So it’s about creating the relationship first. Once you get the relationship right, then it becomes quite
reciprocal and respectful and so I guess that’s the danger of working with Crown agencies that change
people all the time because you develop the relationship with the person, not with the organisation and
so like you know, you’ll know, you’ve created all these good relationships around the motu, so (Te
Whati?) would have been poorer for it by your leaving because that next person who comes along has
to now redevelop a relationship-
Interviewer #1 – Yeah that’s right and because the haukāinga doesn’t move, does it?
Interviewee #18– No, we’ll never change and that face may change, but that relationship will be passed
on. ‘No, they’re alright, boy. We’ve got them. Ke te pai. Oh, I trust your word, Uncle, so I will,’ you
know? So that, there’s succession in that. That trust relationship gets succeeded, but it doesn’t occur in
these government organisations because they’re not focused, you know they’re not family-based. You
know what I’m saying?
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all the agencies were massive, you know, they’ve very much come to grips with Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plans
and if anything, they encourage them because it’s a vehicle for which they can understand where the
people are coming from, you know, I think just have to be careful they don’t become the one-stop-shop
and don’t even bother coming to see you because we’ll just read your Iwi <strong>Mana</strong>gement Plan, you know,
sometimes it’s a good thing because it’s like, don’t even bother knocking if you want to do something
that’s way out of the scope that we think is acceptable, don’t bother knocking, but the other side of it is
you still should ask, maybe if it does say that we might be okay with that don’t assume that that is safe.
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So it’s a double-edged sword but these ones, these particular (?) body outfits are screaming down the
door for them. – Interviewee #18
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Interviewer #1 – Okay, my last series of questions, [X], around that questions for planners and your role
as the <strong>mana</strong>ger of (Te Teretaiau?) or (Te maru?), what opportunities are there for you in your role for to
have a real say or a greater participation, a real influence over the <strong>mana</strong>gement of the local resources?
Interviewee#18– I guess that’s where the Treaty process has been helpful. Also, you know the other
instruments we’ve talked about, iwi <strong>mana</strong>gement plans, MoAs with local government, those are all
there. It’s just getting the fellow with all the lollies ie. The Crown or the government to want to sit down
and play, you know, at the end of the day they hold all the power and the authority unless they want to
sit and play with you, they’re not going to and so we had to jump up and down and make a big noise
before we appeared on their radar and now everything’s much better, but you don’t get the
opportunities until you come into conflict, you know, it seems.
Interviewer #1 – You almost have to have the conflict sometimes in order to create a relationship,
almost
Interviewee #18– To create change, it takes, (what? said) takes a revolution to create a resolution.
Sometimes you have to say, ‘No, enough is enough,’ before people say, ‘Okay. Okay, I’ll be nice. I’ll be
nice and I’ll play nice.’ And it’s stink because you get your back pushed into a wall first. Unfortunately,
we wait until we’ve been you know, got our backs to the wall and we’ve got nowhere else to go, ‘Oh
well, arrrr,’ want to fight back, but what it takes to get you to the wall is the debilitating part, you know,
and it took [iwi-X], what, 20-something years to get up from the debilitating struggle, having their puna
taken to get to a point of response and that’s a lot of time.
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I still feel that the government should be funding it, not the internal iwi that’s need that money for other
things like creating employment for the young people. I think the government should be funding it, but
you know, like as in that starfish eradication programme I put through to EBoP, you know, I had the
backing of all the local agencies and stuff, but come to the pūtea, ‘Sorry, you know, we can’t fund you on
that exercise,’ – Interviewee #19
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Interviewer #1 - So do you think on the whole the agencies are trying to help you or are they trying to
hinder you?
Interviewee #19 – I think Ministry of Fish have hindered us quite a bit. When we had to control, when
[X] was in the Ministry of Fish, we issued the books out to our people that we made permit issuers.
Then when [X] left they recalled the books and partly rightly so, because each iwi can go to the Ministry
of Fish and get a book, permit book, each hapū, each iwi, each hapū, but then again we lost control of
who was issuing permits. The taiāpure lost control of who was issuing the permits and that’s, and the
Ministry of Fish wouldn’t back us, like they won’t even give us a book now to issue permits. Yeah so it’s
all been given to the iwis and we don’t know if Joe Bloggs to whoever have got-
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.....................
Interviewer #1 - are you well connected between what happens here on the coast and what’s happening
at the boardroom level of (Tikautahatanga?)? ...
Interviewee #19 – I think we are connected, but not in a funding way, not in a funding way. We are
connected. They like to hear what’s going on, what are we doing and stuff like and we do have a
representative on that board, but funding-wise, no. But you know, they do slip us some pennies now
and again. They do slip us some pennies, but I still think it’s not for them to supply the money to do this
research work out here. I think it should be government-funded. It’s for everybody. ... If it’s just for
Māori, if it was just for Māori and just for this hapū or this iwi, I’d go along with that, you know, we’d
fund it ourselves and, but it’s for everybody. ... Everybody’s got that access
.....................
Interviewer #1 - if [X] was part of the old regime and the old regime’s been cut, then-
Interviewee #19 – yeah that knowledge and in that public relations, I think the public relation thing was
the most important, the public relation thing was the most important. Without that publics relations,
[Interviewer #1], you had no help from nobody. You had no help from nobody, like you know I was
going around with this honorary fisheries officer and you’d be looking at boat registrations, warrants of
fitness and I thought, ‘Gee, what’s that got to do with fish?’ You know, and you’d make mental notes of
it and you’d write it all down. Is one of the vehicles unwarranted and I thought, ‘What’s that got to do
with us?’ That’s the policeman’s job, but you know, and I think some of the training that the Ministry of
Fish younger officers got and the way they approach people was the wrong type of approachment, you
know,
Interviewer #1 - Okay, confrontational?
Interviewee #19 – Yeah it was confrontational
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Interviewer #3 - How do they deal with different agenda from different iwi?
Interviewee #20 – Poorly.
Interviewer #3 – Right
Interviewee #20 – They had, despite their best endeavours of people involved, I can recall sitting there
one day calculating the number of iwi rohe <strong>moana</strong> boundaries that, it was the Snapper 8, West Coast,
northern West Coast finfish plan that they were trying to pull together because MFish had thought that
it was, the best-case-scenario is just to have one or two representatives from each sector. That, to
them, was the ultimate because then if it’s only six people there to represent customary, commercial,
recreational and, perhaps, environmental, then that was quite a good, <strong>mana</strong>geable working group to
work with, but the reality is when you try to put in a series of rules around fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement, in this
particular case, the Norwest finfish, Norwest finfish or was it Norwest Snapper? Whatever, I don’t think
it exists anymore, anyway. They went across 23 iwi boundaries from my calculations. So to try and get
two or three iwi representatives that are unpaid, cover their travel costs and a bit of a free lunch, but to
then expect those people to go and keep in communication with 21 of their neighbours is just
outrageous, really. It’s not going to work. But therein lies the conundrum of fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement in
New Zealand, it is thinking on a mega-scale. That’s the reality. It doesn’t compute, really, the issues
around the harbour area or an estuarine environment. In one level that’s what the mātaitai and
taiāpure are designed for, addressing local issues, but you’ve got a real, well it is a conundrum. You’ve
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got a real catch-22 in New Zealand in that there’s not enough resourcing. There never will be enough
resourcing to fully police the fisheries. Our fisheries to have enough staff to roll out a fisheries plan of
that scale, to have enough, it’s very difficult to get that range of fisheries users together in a table and
get them to agree to anything, shared objectives, very difficult. And that’s the fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement
conundrum, really.
.....................
Interviewee #20 – So there were, in my time, there was a, there’s a big drive to enhance <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua input into fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement and they had a team of I think about 15 (pou honanga?) which
is an iwi liaison (?) <strong>mana</strong>gement arm, function, and they established iwi forum that were in a huge range
of shapes and sizes, you know, it’s almost like it wasn’t necessarily a shared understanding of what their
function should be, you know, the effort in setting up this forum and like some had a, were only about a
customary fishing perspective, whereas some had quite a range of what fishing means to Māori, which
is, because Māori are in recreational, commercial, and customary, 100% customary, 40+% commercial,
and 100% recreational as well, actually. So it’s a, so that was one of the initiatives at the time. It was at
about 3 ½ million dollars per annum, was the cost of setting that up and running that.
Interviewer #3 – So was that the Ministry trying to create a communication channel between <strong>tangata</strong>
whenua and its decision-making processes?
Interviewee #20 – Yes
Interviewer #3 – Yeah, yeah, so in that way was it trying to empower communities to <strong>mana</strong>ge their
fisheries or was it more a one-way thing where they were trying to kind of get the knowledge and ideas
...
Interviewee #20 – They were trying to empower their communities, but at no time would an MFish
official think that they were anything but informing the fisheries officials’ decision-making. The fisheries
officials are there to ensure the Minister makes the decisions, so yes, they were of value for engaging
because a lot of effort went into those, creating that engagement model, but I know now that MaF is
saying it doesn’t have the resources to engage with that model anymore and it’s going up to the QMA
level. So you’re back to that scenario of three or four representatives sitting around a table on behalf of
everybody else, along that coastline, so I mean the chances of that being very community-inclusive
model is virtually zero, really. I mean it’s a lot of pressure on a few people to be the conduit and I
suspect it might go well for a little while but
.....................
Interviewee #20 – Under the current government, I don’t think, I think the Minister, Phil Heatley, put out
a directive quite early on that MFish staff weren’t to be seen assisting them in these applications. So it’s
quite interesting that they are seen as a spinoff of the SeaLord’s deal, the 1992 Treaty of Waitangi
Fisheries Settlement Act and there was, from that, as part of a commercial redress, but also there was
supposed to be a customary redress, which was where the customary regulations comes from, so that’s
the South Island Customary regs and North Island kai<strong>moana</strong> customary regulations. So they were seen
as the customary redress arm of that settlement and inside that is the mātaitai (total?) access to the
mātaitai. So it’s interesting that, a flow-on effect of the settlement was the, what that particular
settlement, was the ability to in a mātaitai, yet you know, 20 years later now, 19 years later is a real-
Interviewer #3 – So the government, at least this government, seems to be actively standing in the way
of getting more mātaitai on the ground, is that what you’re saying?
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Interviewee #20 – It would appear so if you were judging them on the turnover of mātaitai and I think
there’s up to 50 mātaitai applications in the queue and the truth is you can find fault in anything in the
MFish process, from what I can see, that seems to be their culture, looking for faults.
Interviewer #3 – Right, as an excuse to slow things up you mean?
Interviewee #20 – Oh, there’s a, you know, you can justify inactivity or negative decisions it would seem
on a range of things in that. Having said that though, Ngāi Tahu have had considerable success, to my
understanding.
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Interviewer #3 – how good MFish was at developing them to incorporate aspirations and objectives for
hapū and the iwi, so this is more your judgement, really, your judgement call, how good were they?
Interviewee #20 – I don’t know if I know the real answer to that. If I know the right answer, rather, but
from what I saw, there was a fairly genuine attempt to incorporate iwi aspirations. I think the
fundamental weakness is, of the approach, is that Ministry officials are always bound by having to go up
to the Minister’s office for a series of layers and therein lies the weakness because for <strong>tangata</strong> whenua
they don’t bow to that or subscribe to that model. They go, ‘This is what we want. We talk from our
rangatira to your rangatira,’ and so, therein lies the problem is that the officials below the Minister see
their process as important as anything else, whereas <strong>tangata</strong> whenua on this side are going, ‘Well, no,
we just talk here at this level.’ So that’s straightaway you’ve got a real confusion in process really,
haven’t you? Or a confusion in approach and so the, it does lead to problems, pure and simple and so,
yes, the Ministry of Fisheries created a nice, at the time it was extremely well-resourced process that
was ultimately not really going to fit with anybody but its own model and therein lies the part of the
challenge, isn’t it? You know, inside the Ministry it thought it had all the answers or had the way
forward, but outside the Ministry it’s far from the reality and part of what I saw as the Ministry’s
weakness in this, we’ve been talking about the success or not of incorporating <strong>tangata</strong> whenua
objectives, part of the weakness is they’ve had a poor history of engaging with the public and not only
that, but a poor history of engaging with <strong>tangata</strong> whenua
.....................
Interviewee #20 - a lot of it’s voluntary you know. So what you’ve got people from (Maniora?) a bit of
an honorarium, it’s still a day out of your own life, isn’t it?
Interviewer #3 – So are you telling me that the Fish plans that these iwi and hapū put so much effort into
are now essentially sitting on a shelf somewhere?
Interviewee #20 – Well apart from Ngāi Tahu, apart from Ngāti Kahungunu, and two or three others, I
don’t think they have progressed at all and I know inside the, at the deputy chief executive level of
MFish, I don’t think they’re at all motivated in seeing them through, even though on paper and on their
brochures they’ll say it’s all about these iwi fisheries planned outcomes, I don’t think there’s a lot of buyin
inside the Ministry.
.....................
It’d be tough being the Minister trying to engage with all the amateur fishermen in New Zealand
because that’s 4 million people. Everyone, there’s apparently a million people have fishing rods or
something like that or whatever it is. There’s a million amateur fishing, fishermen that get, use the
fishery on a regular basis. So that’s a lot. One out of four New Zealanders are exercising their amateur
rights. So and how do you capture all their needs? In fact that’s the biggest blind spot is what is the
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amateur fisherman taking out of the ocean? In some areas it would be nowhere near what they’ve
allocated, but in other areas it would be far in excess of it. I mean, look at crayfish, in particular. We’ve
got no idea what’s coming out and they’ll be virtually tens of tonnes more than what they’re planning
for. So, challenging - Interviewee #20
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In Kahungunu we believe that hapū are the rightful owners of the land and not the Kahungunu iwi.
Kahungunu iwi, as you probably are aware, is a name given for the many hundreds of hapū within
Kahungunu. We believe that there is a very big mistake made by the Crown when they deal with us as
people within Kahungunu and the Crown tends to lump us together as an iwi. That’s fine for certain
things but when you come down to the grassroots level, Kahungunu do not own the land that I live on,
my hapū does, the hapū the whanui within that hapū and therein you will find controversy every time
you interview people within Kahungunu and you talk about iwi, but, in fact, it’s hapū who have the
responsibility for that particular area where they live. – Interviewee #22
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I haven’t found [local and central government] very helpful at all and I’m quite a pragmatic person. I’m
practical and I’ve worked within government departments over the last 30 years and so I have an
understanding of why they don’t have more than a passing interest in our views about the land, about
life itself within New Zealand. They never had a need to because they’re in power and so to be able to
take part in that power-sharing, you have to have some, what we call, tinorangatiratanga recognised
and through the land claims it’s just starting to come about and, I guess, it’s power begets power and
when that starts to happen people start to take notice of the person who’s now controlling the stick, I
guess, and so things are starting to change with the land claims and we’re starting to now get into
dialogue and make more of a difference in terms of who we are as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua. – Interviewee #22
.....................
Interviewee #22– No, no we haven’t but we’re starting to be notified of these things because of the land
claims. I know there’s a, the Hawke’s Bay regional council forming an environment team whereby we’re
going to be invited onto it to put up nominations to sit on that conservation team to provide advice and
to be involved in planning on what goes on within our rohe and on the rivers and on the waterways. It’ll
be interesting to just see how much notice is taken of that committee, but I guess, having the
opportunity to be at the table is better than sitting at your kai table talking about it when you might be
able to be sitting at the table where you’re helping to make decisions, eh?
Interviewer #1– Yes, yes. Okay and what about the other councils then, the Hastings and the Napier, do
they-
Interviewee #22– Slowly coming on board. They didn’t even know who we were. Once we got the
mandate from the Crown to take our claim to ratification we decided to put together a delivery to take
to the councils to let them know who we are, how big a players we are in the development of our region
and it’s only at that time that we’ve done it in the last 12 months, since we’ve done this delivery, that
they know who we are and so they’re starting to treat with us, but up until then, it was a quasi-Māori
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committee that was selected, I’m not too sure how, but we didn’t accept that committee because we
didn’t think it had any power...
.....................
Well quickly we had to put on our education hat and take off our grievance hat and say, ‘Well what are
we going to do with this?’ So we have to do some due diligence over that as to whether we want to
take it back or do we want to take ownership of it and leave it in the current hands and lease it or do we
want to put part of it back into conservation because we’re conservation-minded and the Department of
Conservation is <strong>mana</strong>ging that part of it on the estuary at the moment. Well if we want to do that, let’s
look at <strong>mana</strong>gement partnership and taking care of that part of the estuary and the Napier City Council
now are talking to us about extending the airport, which we’ve already agreed to, but there’s land
around that airport as to developing the land commercially and so those are the things we have to start
to look at. – Interviewee #22
.....................
So five different iwi at five different stages of negotiation and what took affect was that the Crown
effectively went around to everybody and said, ‘Are you prepared to negotiate the co-<strong>mana</strong>gement
aspects for your river separately and to do this in a very, very quick manner to expedite this?’ ...
Waikato-Tainui Settlement is a Deed of Settlement under Treaty claims, that’s effectively created
changes, or process under the RMA as a result of Treaty Settlement, which has never happened before.
So you’re getting a much closer alignment between Treaty Settlement stuff and RMA stuff, which signals
a new era for New Zealand, and an important one, ... there’s new precedent with the Waikato-Tainui
Settlement. – Interviewee #24
.....................
So even when you’ve got the accords to that level, there’s still a major culture change to go through
where they perceive and treat iwi as partners, as co-<strong>mana</strong>gement partners and co-governance partners,
– Interviewee #24
.....................
we negotiated our accords so our accords are separate to the strategies, right? Our accords are
separate documents between Raukawa and the respective Minister, but we negotiated the accords with
Te Arawa. We did collective negotiations so they were in the room, we were in the room with them.
And what was very helpful was that both the negotiator for Te Arawa and I, got a policy planning
background in public policy sector developments stuff background and so we were able to bring our
whakaaro from Raukawa in our vision and know what we wanted and know what was going to translate
into progress for our people and then look at what the statements of intent were for those agencies and
work through their work programmes and see where the alignment was and try to do that strategically.
So it was very hard work in that we were negotiating five at once. So I had to deal with five agencies but
each of those agencies only had to deal with me and it was the workload more than the expertise why
that was the problem, really. What struck me, [Interviewer #1] to be honest, was that very few agencies
were really on the board with how they’re going to deal with Māori. Their willingness was also varied.
Their capacity to know how and what that meant was extremely varied. Some were very prepared.
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They knew exactly what the responsibilities were. They were really welcoming of the accord. They
could see where it was going to have really good effect. Others were like, ‘Oh we’re just not sure how
we’re going to do this. We don’t know. We’re not doing a very good job of implementing our Treaty
principles. We’re nervous. We don’t know who you are,’ and that came out and so what really, what
became really important was them developing a relationship with us and understanding us as iwi before
we went too far. There’s a lot of nervousness. – Interviewee #24
.....................
And what really struck me was the variation between regional agreements and relationships and
Wellingtonian-based relationships. At [iwi-X] we really worked hard on our partnerships and we had
really good relationships with (?) Power, Carter Holt, Environment Waikato, our district council and so
we were used to working at the hard end, the sharp end of stuff every day with partners and saying,
‘Oh, and if there are issues we’ll deal with them,’ and the level of fear and retrenchment and
nervousness about what a partnership was going to mean was just at a new level in Wellington and yet,
we find out in the regions you’re much more able to get on and just make it work and people are more
relaxed and more open. I think they’ve got more confidence it seems to go work with iwi in a really
constructive way, but I was really, because I’d worked in government in 1996-2000 and I thought things
surely should have moved on. – Interviewee #24
.....................
what we’re finding is that the practitioners, the resource consent processing guys and the policy stuff,
they’ve wanted something like this. They’ve wanted to give effect to much greater environmental
change for a long time, but the political nature of regional and local government is such that the councils
get nervous about pushing something and back off and the staff are desperate to do something about
the environment but they haven’t had the mandate or they don’t feel like they’ve had the mandate and
so it’s what’s really interesting is that the empathy and the acceptance and the willingness to work with
us from the practitioners, themselves. – Interviewee #24
.....................
Yes, there is definitely and we’ve fought long and hard for those things in negotiation and the issue was
that both Labour and National governments, because we had to negotiate with both of them over the
time period were very clear that this had to happen within the RMA environment and the LGA
environment. They weren’t prepared to make any changes to the RMA or LGA and so none of this could
be (?) RMA and so we had long discussions with t he chief RMA lawyer from Crown Hall about the way
we were structuring this and the language we used and we had that hierarchy of language definitely in
mind, give effect to, have particular regard to take into account and we fought very hard to keep getting
the highest level of recognition, not knowing how it’s been so reasonably diminished in the past and yes,
it probably still is a risk in the framework. – Interviewee #24
.....................
we’re currently in very animated negotiations with t he Crown about, because we have an overarching
accord with the Prime Minister and the Minister of Māori Affairs and the Minister of Treaty
Negotiations. Now that is the umbrella accord for all the others and the guardianship or the kaitiaki of
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that is very important to us and we are currently negotiating that with the Prime Minister’s office and
we see that issue as being critical for that very reason you raise. We hear of one iwi who have been
waiting for their first forum for five years, not necessarily with MFish [muffled] their first ministerial
forum post-settlement– Interviewee #24
.....................
So the River Authority, the Crown members are one member appointed by the Minister for the
Environment and consultation with some other ministers, one member appointed by the Minister, sorry
that was in consultation with the Ministers of Finance, local government and Māori Affairs, one member
appointed by the Minister in conjunction with the finance, local government and ministry of Māori
Affairs from persons recommended by TLA whose boundaries fall within. So basically that’s a TLA rep
and three members appointed by the respective Ministers and then we gave some guidelines about to
ensure membership reflects a balance, mix of knowledge and experience in relation to the Waikato
River and that at least two members had to be ordinary resident in the region. So we kind of shaped
that, but then certainly in the reviews, we wanted the right Ministers – Interviewee #24
.....................
I think ownership’s going to be something that will take much longer because actually there’s a huge
tribal water for instance, as well, like some people, our tribe for example, doesn’t want to talk about
ownership. We sort of think how can you own something that owns you so our kawa, our tikanga is that
we’re here to look after it but we certainly don’t own it, but we’re responsible for <strong>mana</strong>ging it in a
prudent way. What I’m saying is that there has to be a at a national policy statement level, if not higher,
a formal recognition of the relationship between iwi and water and that should filter down through all
water <strong>mana</strong>gement and governance in New Zealand. These are recognised Treaty rights, as it should be
for minerals and costal stuff, those sorts of things, but that would have been extremely helpful. –
Interviewee #24
.....................
The Treaty is an example of what we are capable of. It is an agreement and recognition of our
Sovereignty and a direct development of te Whakaputanga o te Whakaminenga o Ngaa Hapū, [although
the current Crown administration does not reinforce our indigenous rights via the United Nation
Declaration of Indigenous rights]. – Interviewee #25
.....................
We can lay ground rules down to our people and other recreational divers and somehow the laws of the
Ministry can overwrite, if I put a, on behalf of the taiāpure body put a (rawe?) on the beach, people still
have the right to go to the Ministry of Fish and get a permit to gather kai<strong>moana</strong> and we’ve found that
they’ve never acknowledged some of our rules that we laid down regarding the kai<strong>moana</strong> – Interviewee
#27
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.....................
Interviewer #1 - the strategic plan you have in place, or the plan for the taiāpure, does the Minister of
Fisheries really want to acknowledge that in existence?
Interviewee #27 – Not, no, they have had copies when we first set up and drew up that, the structure for
what we do within a taiāpure and it seems like it’s been totally ignored or just overlooked, is a better
word they will use.
.....................
Interviewer #1 - Would you go to the effort of setting up a taiāpure committee, knowing what you know
now?
Interviewee #27 – … knowing what I know now, no, because I’d see what this lack of support we get
from all governmental departments.
.....................
Interviewee #27 - we have barriers that have been created and we can’t overcome them because the
law is not on our side.
Interviewer #1 – What are some of those barriers that you were referring to?
Interviewee #27 – Like Environment BoP, Western Bay District Council, Te Arawa (?) Water is partly to
blame. … Department of Conservation, and the Ministry of Fish in not supporting us for our policing and
preservation of the kai<strong>moana</strong>.
.....................
I’ve been frustrated and actually I’m getting pissed off because nothing’s been done about it. I’m sick of
going to public meetings and I stand up and, ‘Why aren’t you doing this? Why do you treat Maketu like
second-class citizens?’ It’s not on and they asked for some historical photos of the Kaituna River and
Maketu estuary around even the Western Bay council had them, probably find them in Environment
BoP. DoC will have them as well and if you look at those photos you can understand what I’m talking
about and you look at what exists today and you’ll say, ‘How did I let that happen?’ And are my
grandchildren going to say the same thing, ‘Why did you let that happen Koro?’ And I have to give an
explanation. – Interviewee #27
.....................
No, as well, what is current assessment tool, okay, do we actually see? What could we see? What could
we agree upon? They don’t even have the conversation about it and that is very problematic. At
customary, commercial, recreational level, they just will not engage in a conversation at all and we’ve
tried – Interviewee #5b
.....................
We’ve got their systems in place and like we know fishermen in Hawke’s Bay, at (QMA?), three, four,
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that it’s been a really dire situation there, commercially, and the Ministry will not, not communicate, not
interested in a simple thing as a conversation. And these guys’ businesses are in a terrible state you
know, and if you take out the institutional knowledge of what fishes when and where, it’s not just Māori
that know this stuff. It’s the guys that wouldn’t dare talk to outside of their close, close buddies,
because you wouldn’t reveal the location of your catches ... those guys have got all that in common and
you know, the Ministry doesn’t seem to care – Interviewee #5b
.....................
If the government’s not resourcing it they’re just plain paying lip service – Interviewee #10b
.....................
Interviewer #2 – So is there a bigger message here, [Interviewee #10b], that surveillance needs to
change in a utopia, it’s not adequate at the moment and you would like more surveillance?
Interviewee #10b– Yeah, well, some of the groups felt that. They say, ‘Look you know, when we get it,
there’s no officers here. We hardly ever get officers and when they do come in all they do is raid us, the
locals. So and when we ring them up they never turn up. It’s their day off or it’s too wet, too cold.’ So
there’s, yeah it does vary from place to place, but they’re saying that, ‘We would prefer our own people
get these resources and have jobs and be able to work from home. We’re already here. It’s expensive
coming all the way from town to come down and police us here in the middle of nowhere. Why can’t
we have a local ranger-type person?’
.....................
at the end of the day, the local government, the central government, and the national government,
they’re all in bed together – Interviewee #13b
.....................
I think probably because we’ve got three Māori seats is probably as good a reason as any in the Bay of
Plenty, is that <strong>tangata</strong> whenua are refusing to deal with the local councils. Say, ‘No, no, we don’t want
nothing to do with you.’ The local council’s coming to regional because they, ‘Well can you get an
engagement going for us with <strong>tangata</strong> whenua?’ And they say, ‘Well <strong>tangata</strong> whenua have said No, they
don’t want to speak to you because they had years of your experience with you and don’t like it and
don’t trust you.’ So there’s things happening and I think this might be the time to define Ministry of
Fish’s role – Interviewee #15b
.....................
Yeah, I’m just generalising here, but historically the relationships with hapū, iwi and local government,
they’re not great and so we’ve had to use our Treaty processes to try and improve that relationship
because we need to establish a mātaitai or your taiāpure, we had to deal with that. So you use
whatever tools you’ve got – Interviewee #18b
.....................
we really thought that we were getting headways ahead you know, because they were coming, Ministry
of Fisheries, this was an official group formed through the Ministry of Fisheries and we really thought
that we were getting headways ahead with fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plans – not even! They just wanted
to come and say, ‘Well you know, this is what we,’ and they let us stay in their flash motels you know,
and gave us a nice guy, but at the end of the day, you know, we actually mandated this fisheries
<strong>mana</strong>gement plan, well we all supported it as a model that we could all use and, ‘We want you to now
resource it. Try it out as a pilot.’ They basically made us all cry in the room to say, ‘Well you know, we
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can’t do that. Sorry.’ You know, it was really, really terrible – Interviewee #29b
.....................
If you don’t say what you want, they’re going to say it for you and it may not be what you wanted to
see. A prime example was the way the marae were <strong>mana</strong>ged in the district plan previous, they were all
placed in the archaeological chapter so they became hands off, you know, and when you wanted to
improve your marae you’d bang into discretionary activity straight away. The mechanism was meant to
protect, but it didn’t. It didn’t so that had an about face in the review but those are the sort of things
that if you don’t say you miss out and somebody else will make those decisions for you, how they
thought it will happen and it usually doesn’t reflect what you actually want – Interviewee #18b
.....................
Interviewer #2 - is the part of the issue that the people <strong>mana</strong>ging the fisheries don’t have those values
that you have, different in your values and in your vision or what?
Interviewee #29b – Yeah-
Interviewee #13b – I think it’s their terms of reference. The terms of reference that people like that is
their policy and their procedure, whether it’s derived from legal or whatever, but the terms of reference
throughout is our ability to be able to support our family, whether it be our children or our
grandparents, or whoever, you know? So it’s the terms of reference that people apply, I guess. Because
you’ll hear some of them talking about some of this stuff, but they will most certainly act it out in a very
different way to us.
.....................
Interviewee #20b – Well we attended an MFish presentation a week ago [Interviewee #5b]?
Interviewee #5b – We did
Interviewee #20b – And for me, it’s-
Interviewee #18b – Still singing the same story ten years ago
Interviewee #20b – And it stunk of social engineering and the goal is you’re only going to engage with
the Crown now to get to the sweet nut of trying to influence the science process because that’s all
they’re really offering, which you know, they’re not really going to listen to your knowledge anyway and
ignore you pretty quickly anyway, and they’re trying to pull everyone through the eye of this needle, and
to me, it smelt of social engineering and I don’t know what your take on it, Tuahine.
Interviewee #5b – I just thought for people that are well paid and some of them are our whanaunga,
then you know, what have they been doing in the last three years, you know? And that’s why the
paradigm shift is happening globally because of the pressure on natural resources and kōrero like this is
just so rich you know, and holistic and it needs to be shared with people that can influence change.
.....................
Well unfortunately MFish are one of the groups that deliberately separated communities. They tried to,
and we all went through this, set up a recreational fishery sector and to the sides separate was the
customary Māori and that’s been our interaction. The Ngā Puhi, we decided that we would break that
mould. We didn’t see that as being reflective of our reality and so the Hokianga Accord is formed on the
basis that 99% of the time Māori go fishing it is termed as recreational fishers and so the customary
fishery forum that was supposed to be for the mid-North, run by MFish for MFish purposes. So we took
that and we altered it into our purposes that fit the whole wider community – Interviewee #25b
.....................
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Interviewee #29b - they told us, look we want you to start working on a fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan. We
want you to get all these people involved in developing it. So we did that and we came up with the
perfect model like [Interviewee #5b]’s just saying, that’s another one, and they said, ‘No.’ Okay so what
we’re saying now is we’ve done what you wanted us to do. We now need this to be resourced. Very
hard for a whole lot of hapū, iwi to come together and agree on one hapū/iwi to actually use it as a pilot
on behalf of all of us and we all agreed to do that and they said, ‘No, there was no resource.’ I tell you
our kuia kawa cried in that room.
Interviewee #15b - It’s disgusting.
Interviewee #5b – It is disgusting
.....................
Interviewee #29 - this is where the individual property rights stuff comes in too I suppose is that yeah
we are in align to that providing that, well it will be ours at the end of the day, no one else’s because
we’re the ones who are living here. We’re the <strong>tangata</strong> whenua of this area. We’d like to see that stuff
that the kai<strong>moana</strong> are available for us forever, not just you know, but how do we do that? How do we
do that? How do we get the resources? There’s the Ministry of Fisheries, I don’t know whether I’ve got
any confidence in them anymore. When we started off with the Te Kupenga forum, Te Kupenga a Maui
thinking that this is where we were going to get some support.
Interviewer #1 – So originally Rakaipaaka was very supportive of that Te Kupenga a Maui forum?
Interviewee #29 – Yeah, we were until you know, we kept going thinking that we were going to get
some sort of support for our vision anyway for our customary fishing area and that was basically to find
out about what the forum was trying to achieve, which we thought was a great thing because it was
going to help us get a fisheries <strong>mana</strong>gement plan together and it was going to bring the resources. It
was going to support you know, maybe into commercial fishing, but just we had a meeting down in
Masterton and this Ministry of Fisheries people all came. It was beautiful. You were on the scene,
[Interviewer #1], and then all of a sudden we said, ‘Well you know, okay, we’ve got a Rongomaiwahine
people that have bought a draft plan. We see it fitting into what the Ministry of Fisheries is trying to
achieve through their Fisheries Deed of Settlement or Fisheries Bill,’ and then we asked, ‘Is this going to
be resourced?’ and then they said, ‘No, there isn’t going to be any resources. Not to Rongomaiwahine.’
And yet they had the vote, they had the people that were able to do it. They had the plan. … They had
all of it but the Ministry of Fisheries couldn’t, they didn’t say why they just said that resources weren’t
available.
Interviewer #1 – How did that make you feel when
Interviewee #29 – Well, we got pretty pissed off [laughs] It did, it made us feel like we wasted like four
meetings, four meetings, four months of travel you know, expectation. We were overwhelmed that
there was finally we had a link straight to government, straight to the government organisation that was
going to help us
.....................
well we saw that this plan was going to achieve was exactly what we were trying to achieve, I mean, you
know, it didn’t matter whether we weren’t going to be resourced so why not support this one that we
saw would be the beginning of something for all of us but then we just got basically told, ‘No,’ you know,
there wasn’t anything going to be available and we just always told them what we thought of them in a
nice way and got up and left and never came back, went to one more hoping to see that they would see
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the reason, and don’t come and keep meeting with us. It’s just a tick box thing because you know, the
Ministry of Fisheries have to do this, this, this. Okay you’re saying you’re doing this, this, this but you’re
not doing this other more important thing because for us as Māori we’re looking for, we’re doers, you
know, we want to get to the end point. It doesn’t matter how we get there. You tell us how we have to
get there and we’ll do the best we can for nothing. If that’s what it takes to get there, for nothing, but
don’t tell us while we’re just about there that you can’t help us finish it off – Interviewee #29
.....................
only those people who put it forward on behalf of Rongomaiwahine, [X] and [X], only they knew, they’re
fisher people of Mahia. They knew the whole of their customary area like the back of their hand, you
know, so why shouldn’t it be them to do it. I don’t know why it wasn’t recognised that yes, they are the
fisheries people. She was doing some research stuff with NIWA at the time. She started getting the skill
in, you know, and she was also made relationships with key NIWA people so it was already, all of that
stuff was already set up and then went nowhere, still gone nowhere and there’s still no pilot as far as
I’m concerned. No pilot that’s been accepted and resourced from the Ministry of Fisheries to help
Māori achieve something at least so what’s the problem? That’s what we keep asking – Interviewee #29
.....................
so is it that the Ministry of Fisheries that have got a resource there or is it that iwi/hapū have to look for
their own resource elsewhere? Is it just that the Ministry of Fisheries are meeting with us just to say,
‘Well these are the things that we have to achieve, realistically we haven’t got any resource to help you
get to where you have, is it that iwi/hapū have to go to kaitiaki, have to go to Te Ihu Kai<strong>moana</strong>, have to
go to Aotea Fisheries, have to go to you know, where do we go to if it’s not them? – Interviewee #29
.....................
Coastal Hapū had never had any resources. They did <strong>mana</strong>ge to secure a project with Te Puni Kōkiri to
do some consultation with all the coastal hapu from Turakirae to Paritu. That’s all they’ve been
resources with and so that was just happening then this other fisheries forum came up Te Kupenga so
we thought, ‘Oh, Ministry of Fisheries must have something to help us.’ So we jumped on there too,
thinking, ‘Okay we’re not going to push this one aside. We’re still going to go with them as well.’ … but
now we’ve sort of disregarded the Ministry of Fisheries model because it’s bullshit - Interviewee #29
.....................
as far as I’m concerned it’s are still interfering the meeting at Tanenuiarangi. They ticked the boxes,
talked to them and this and that te mea te mea and he’s probably trying to be a bit more progressive
because he could get hōhā, two steps forward and one step backwards, Rakaipaaka got no information,
no resourcing, nothing at all, Te Rūnanga o Rakaipaaka is an iwi, a hapū or whatever. Nothing comes
from the government, nothing from anywhere. No resources, mātauranga or scientific research or
pūtea. It’s guesswork, fisherman goes out and says, ‘Oh the fishing was good today or it wasn’t. That’s
all. That’s all it is – Interviewee #30
.....................
Interviewee #30 – Hawkes Bay Regional Council didn’t we? Like fencing a lot of the-
Interviewee #29 – Oh yeah that was regional council and Ngā Whenua Rāhui. We took Ngā Whenua
Rāhui up to one of our prime wāhi tapu areas and for fencing and see if we could get some resources for
fencing, they said it was too big and you know, Nga Whenua Rahui said oh no we just need to do te mea
te mea te mea. It was just so that we could do some riparian planting, didn’t even want to look at it, just
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got so frustrating because the farmer was keen on doing that too you know, preserving the banks of the
river. Well one of our, we were just talking about it this morning Taruke Park is one of our main areas.
It’s just about the whole of Ngāti Rakaipaaka, a shareholder and used to be, what, 13, 14 acres or
something. Now it’s lucky to be six acres because of the erosion that’s happening. So you know,
Interviewer #1 – And Ngā Whenua Rāhui wasn’t in a position to help? Because that’s their role isn’t it?
Interviewee #29 – What did they, that is their role. We took them there, Nga Whenua Rahui [X] and [X]
they came with us and did you come with us? [X] and [X]
Interviewee #30 – Yeah
Interviewee #29 – We took them down to the Papanui and they were whispering to themselves over
here and then we just, I said, ‘Well you know, at the end of the day this is a wāhi tapu area that we have
to preserve. It impacts down here, down there, you know, so we need to do some riparian planting.’
We get back to the office, he basically said, ‘Well you know, it’s too big a job.’ Even if we had have just
got some resources to do some fencing, got the signoff from the landowners as well
.....................
The way it should be. I wouldn’t want to work with MFish. I think if we had to work with a Crown
administrative body, I would rather that be Regional Councils because we have good relationships with
them. They’re already established, we’re consistently working with them all the time. They know the
issues. They know us on a more personal, local level. You know we can adapt or frame <strong>mana</strong>gement
regimes on a localised level and they can change for each rohe, you know, every regional council can
work with Tangata whenua to design their <strong>mana</strong>gement regimes to suit that area or those areas –
Interviewee #31
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234

Spirituality
Summary of Key Points:
The importance of spirituality in Te Ao Mārama; key terms include: Spirituality, Wairua, Atua,
and Mauri; note: this was not a question specifically asked by Interviewers, but has been
touched upon by a few of the Interviewees
Quotes:
I’d like to see environmental revitalisation, some sort of overlap with matauranga Māori. There could
be a much bigger blend between your local regulators and schoolchildren because you know before a
child leaves home you’ve got a captive audience, so like to normalise these values- <strong>mana</strong>kitanga,
kaitiakitanga, wairuatanga with Coastal Hapū Collective, we referred to them as the ‘tangas.’ [laughs]
And all those whakatauki that go along with them and plus new whakatauki yet to be born, yeah. So I
just like wholeness, completeness. I do believe that as <strong>tangata</strong> whenua that’s still our position in
Aotearoa New Zealand because we still, it’s our role and responsibility to <strong>mana</strong>aki everyone that has
come since our initial arrival, all the newcomers. – Interviewee #5
.....................
the whole vision of Ngā Rauru has always been about revitalisation. There are essentially ... nine muka
or nine strands that run along that big vision and one of them, there are a number of them, there is
whanaungatanga, mānakitanga, (oraungatanga?), kaitiakitanga, wairuatanga, (marama?). We wanted
the long-term objective is about kaitiakitanga. It is about being able to demonstrate kaitiakitanga now
and in the future. It's also about sustainability of resourcing and it's also going back to using some of the
traditional (noa forms?) of how sustainability goes including closed areas, (erama?), but the long-term
objective of such a plan was to make sure there was kai for our tamariki and their tamariki and their
(kiatu?) and using today's environment, we thought that the plan would move us somewhere down that
track. – Interviewee #11
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I think it's important to recognise that it's really the spiritual lore of the Māori, which comes into play
here. It's, you know, their whole sense of being versus the educated law. We understand that there is
two societies that we live by. One is the way things used to be and the other one is the way things are
today. We know as Māori, that we have to walk both sides of that. Even though some of our people I
lost in between somewhere, however, having the plans and having the values and that that they
understand and principles helps them sort of understand more widely the concept of kaitiakitanga,
firstly, but secondly, it helps them understand how to live in today's world without losing sight of their
obligations to themselves as Māori – Interviewee #17
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That’s a precedent for Environmental law. No iwi have ever been accorded all three sections of the Act
and what’s unique is that they recognise the spiritual relationship Rangiwewehi have to the Taniwha
Springs or to the puna, which our law recognises spiritual values. It doesn’t get done. It doesn’t
happen, that’s the first time – Interviewee #18
.....................
We’re (poor?) on all levels on the table, spiritually because those stories, we don’t have those stories to
share anymore or we can’t go down and boast about our watercress and take people down, ‘Look at
that,’ you know, so it’s that <strong>mana</strong> stuff crunches into your ability to maintain your hapū <strong>mana</strong> by being
able to put on the table, you know, because it all comes back to kai. You know how we are. We always
come back to kai and that’s the epitome of our <strong>mana</strong>akitanga, how well we can feed each other, but
even those relationships to the whenua, you know, you could go down as a group and collect watercress
kōrero and the next minute the stories come out, ‘Oh, I remember when so-and-so, Uncle used to get in
the -,’ you know, you’re there so the kōrero comes, you know, so we’re not getting out there so much so
we’re not talking and sharing the stories so much if you know what I mean. We’re very much a
theoretical race – Interviewee #18
.....................
We call it C-STEPLES and the things that we look at when we’re evaluating something seeing which way
we’re going to approach it is to use this model and what it is, is it’s our indicators about what are the
impacts of this on your Culture, on our Spirituality, on our Environment. What are the Political things
that will enable this to happen or inhibit it, our barriers. What are the Legal implications of this
legislation, ... What are the Economic benefits of development ... and of course, it must have some
Social wellbeing ... so I’ve written it down here, Cultural, Spiritual, [Technological] Environmental,
Political, Legal, Economic, Social. That’s the C-STEPLES model that we use - Interviewee #13b
.....................
Interviewee 18b – I felt that your article, it really addresses well the physical impacts of the (?) and the
intellectual loss of mātauranga, but ... I didn’t think it really had much (kōrero?) around the spiritual
impact of that, you know, and the psychological outcomes of that, you know, (having?) that physical and
spiritual and intellectual [projector noise]
Interviewer #2 – Would you mind explaining the last two [X] there, so wairua would be, what were the
(impacts?)
Interviewee 18b – The kawa and the spirituality realm and the tikanga ...
Interviewee #5b– So that’s why I got into science because our separation from going to the [projector
noise] meant that we no longer [projector noise] so then it comes into identity and if I’m not personally
doing this, with this number of people (?) then who am I and identity (?)starts to change and your
mental stability starts to waver and you’re looking for solutions in a place where there’s an enormous
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gap in your, you know, and you end up at risk in a lot of ways and even (?) the spiritual (?)(?)(?) that’s
part of the processes (?)
.....................
Interviewee #29b – you know when you do the exercise tomorrow about the utopia, that would be an
interesting exercise in terms of that spiritual catching, being 100% well. What does that look like in a
community?
...
Interviewer #2 –So do you see people in your own community now who have been harmed by that lack
of spiritual reinforcement from the kai having gone that you can see now are not stepping forward as
kaitiaki in the same way?
Interviewee #18b – ... the awa you’re talking about, when that was taken in ’66, I (?) the iwi got a huge
kick in the guts, huge kick in the guts, and were basically knocked to their knees and it’s only been in the
last, you know, since our environmental process that we’ve been able to actually get up and start to
move from reactive to proactive ... but that was figuratively and literally kicked in the guts and it’s taken
(three?) years for the iwi to recover from it spiritually.
Interviewee #14b – It’s a whole generation, really? [cross-dialogue]
Interviewee 18b – We’ve got our kids, I think it’s our (?) that have been brought up from kura kaupapa
and brought up from the haukāinga that are the ones that know how to work that way, the holistic, yeah
and they have, well I see myself as a placeholder for, they’re the ones that are going to make it fly, ... so
it has, the spiritual impact on the iwi is quite huge ... but because the river was a life (?) they had the
main, one of the main arteries taken away ... It really shows the relationship between [projector noise]
For me, that’s one of the best examples of [projector noise]
.....................
Interviewee #29b – And I suppose that’s looking at it from a Western perspective, the economic
development side of things is, that’s only one aspect of the mauri of us as a people, as, you know, our
connection to the land, to everything. It is taking away those things that mean so much to us for a short
period of time for somebody’s very short health (in developing?) That’s what I say. What is it about?
What is it about at the end of the day?
Interviewer #2 – So, guide me if I’m wrong, but I’m hearing you saying that it’s hard to get going again
because the kai are now depleted. It’s like or you don’t have access to them. It’s like breaking out of a
chicken and egg situation to and get going, bring the kai back or is it not like that?
Interviewee #18b – Rangiwewehi are the same, [reo] say, ‘If the river’s not well, the people are not well,’
in all senses of the word.
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Interviewee #14b – It’s a little bit like a coin, the coin is you know, one side is just the other side of the
other side and you can’t have one side without the other. That’s really what it is.
Interviewee #5b – So one way, another way of looking at the same thing is like the kai might be the
physical nourishment, but without everything that supports that kai being there then you are looking at
depletion of what else nourishes you, you know, the wairua, the (hine arau?) you know
.....................
And so which of the consequences are most important, ... Fix the spirituality and the mātauranga and
(kore?) will come right ... that’s part of the consequences, that really coming back to the (police?)
system, falls right down to the connection- Interviewee #18b
.....................
The ability to retain that and pass it on. That’s huge social capital, spiritual well-being, the community
strength that grows from that and then you get the by(?) and you get succession. You get continuity.
It’s the social capital that people on the grassroots are in, just fit in, really – Interviewee #18b
.....................
I know that there’s been a number of times where people have come home to bathe in our awa because
they’ve been ill and it’s that spiritual you know, like me baptising, reconnecting that to whoever they
are, back to identity and that’s been quite recent actually and yeah, maybe we haven’t seen the physical
effects, but they’re felt, the effects of that people might look at it as just, ‘Oh look at that, they’re going
for a swim and it’s so cold,’ but for them it had to be done because that’s part of us as reconnecting
back to who we are, cleansing all of whatever it is that you’ve imposed yourself – Interviewee #29b
.....................
Quite surprising just south of Cape Kidnappers is a beach called Ocean Beach and there’s an underlying
hill which is very special and south of there is Ocean Beach and a gazillionaire decided he wanted to
develop that area and there was a process called a (sharette?) ... condenses ten weeks into ten days of
specialists, you know, infrastructure people and social and education, ... and for the first time ever, they
had a spiritual session and the first time ever they also had a <strong>tangata</strong> whenua session because the
haukāinga lived there, right? Yeah, it’s from (Pukitanai?) all those things so but what came out of the
whole session was how many non-Māori related in a wairua sense and went to Ocean Beach for that
healing, for that cleansing. If somebody had passed away, just didn’t go for a walk, they slept in the
dunes, you know, so like maybe that close, different worlds aren’t that far apart. In fact, there’s a lot of
commonalities you know, that resonate and it wasn’t until something on the knife edge, real risk and
peril that we really get to the nitty gritty about what we share – Interviewee #5b
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we’ve been told the kaitiaki is a white shark with no tail and then when you go to collect kai there the
whole area is covered in harakeke so the old kuia used to make the collecting baskets, fresh collecting
baskets to collect the kai. You can’t go in there with any containers that have been used, that have had
cooked kai in or anything like that and there used to be a freshly, we don’t carry those practices out
anymore. I wouldn’t have a clue how to make kete, you know, so there’s those things. If a woman is got
their mate we know what happens and it’s about health, you know, all of that and that’s paru to us as a
woman. Some people might put things there that say, ‘Oh well that’s okay, you know, it’s not going
thing,’ but for us, as Māori, that’s still paru. So you don’t go and almost instantly the sea becomes quite
rough, you know, I don’t know whether it’s a psychological thing we put on ourselves but it does. The
sea does become quite rough. So that’s the spiritual wellness of our <strong>moana</strong> as well. We don’t go in
there if we’ve got things like that, particularly women. You don’t eat the kai while other members of the
whanau are there collecting the kai. Just things that have been carried on from our ancestors taught to
us and it’s all about the health you know, they called it tapu, but really, it’s the reality of being safe while
you’re doing certain things. It’s about the health of our kai<strong>moana</strong> out there that, it’s about the health of
the water that we’re collecting the kai from – Interviewee #29b
.....................
Interviewee #5b - ‘What are the ways in which Māori attitudes, values, goals, and practices differ from
those operating current marine (society?) at the moment, well I wrote down continuity of waiakainga, of
your connectivity to that place and if you’re still connected, you go down to your spot on the beach and
you just stand there and before you arrive, you know, you’ve already meditated, which is like the karakia
on your purpose for going there and as you’re going along, you get a sense, either driving with yourself
or other people, the radio could be on or off. You turn it off because you tune in more, better, more
clearly, then you stop, get out of the car and just feet at the ground and you’re getting the vibration of
what’s happening on that spot, coming up through your legs and then goes through your knees, goes
through your thighs and goes through your belly and goes up your back, goes into your shoulders and
down your arms to your hands and then, it finally gets to your head, right and at the same time the
winds or the sun, you know, you’re sensing whether it’s, what direction it’s coming from, what
temperature, how strong. You’re smelling what’s going on you know, is there foam in the air? You
know, is it so still that you’re wondering if something’s wrong, you know, and-
Interviewee #29b – It’s a beautiful power
Interviewee #5b – Yeah
Interviewee #29b – I know what you’re saying. That’s absolutely correct
Interviewee #5b – It’s every single sense that God gave you and your parents gave birth to is alive and if
you have the opportunity to connect to your wahikainga, the place that you connect to then you know
that you’re alive, you know, and if that changes, then you start to change, you know, if you can’t
transmit who you are to the people that you love, then they get affected too and if by chance, all the
toku are positive, you can take your shoes off and leave them wherever and go and get wet, take your
little basket, then you know all is good in the world, but otherwise a sense of foreboding or a sense of
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disturbance and you wonder, what is this and then you wonder if you have to go back in the car and
wonder whether you’ll come back here again. What does that mean for my family? You know, what
does that mean for wellbeing in my life? You know, and if you know your parents are aging, you can’t
take something home for them, you know, that affects you profoundly and you don’t have that
discussion with anyone because you’re embarrassed to think that it stops with you and why don’t I
know a cure to this and you very seldom have that discussion until something is really, really seriously
wrong because you take the onus on yourself. You’re not the provider that you were showing how to
be.
.....................
I’m thinking if the biggest difference in terms of values and goals and practices different from those
operating current marine <strong>mana</strong>gement in Western society is that continuity around (waikainga?). This is
the place I know, because it didn’t start with you. It didn’t start with your parents, you know, and that’s
the Hawaikinui-type story, that one, way, way, way back. … they don’t stop to recognise that that’s a
very valid and operating way of being to the <strong>tangata</strong> whenua. So I mean they’ve got no way of assessing
and measuring it, <strong>mana</strong>ging, some else is, they just attribute that to feeling, you know, so you can’t
measure it. So therefore they don’t know that it’s valid in someone else. That’s sort of how I’m sensing
right now. So I don’t just put that down to wairuatanga, because what your five sense are telling you
and the wairua might be the sixth, isn’t spiritual. It’s very, very physical – Interviewee #5b
.....................
I heard the sister talk about almost before she arrived that the beach, there’s that pre aspect of like,
we’re consciously going to get kai, I guess and so even before we’ve even gone off to the beaches that
are talked about, that’s what we are going to do when we get there, we need to do our karakia to give
thanks, whatever it is, to connect us and then we’ll go out to the place that we’re doing and often
sometimes we’ll also do another little (rite?) whatever it might be and when we leave, it’s also about
closing and acknowledging that so there’s a 3-stage thing going on, but I never thought about it until I
heard her talking but that’s what actually happens you know, because it just comes as a natural part of
and it doesn’t matter whether I’m going to get the kai from the beach or whether I’m going to get the
kai from the forest or wherever. It is the same type of practice you know – Interviewee #13b
.....................
We’re a separate hapū and (what?) iwi in the wairua form of Te Arawa and we do have some really
particular perspectives on what we’d like to see occur and we want (those to be different?) that was
why we asked for a protocol from the department straight up – Interviewee #14b
.....................
I’d just like to support what [Interviewee #5b] was saying so and just to enhance the kōrero that she was
talking about to make sure that what we were saying was really what we were saying. So for instance, a
maunga, a mountain, gives us strength. The taniwha is the spiritual wellbeing that some know it’s there
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and some don’t or they don’t want to recognise that it’s there and it’s like the bird tends to tickle the
paru and also tickle the good stuff. So there’s good and bad that comes out of that. It’s all about risk, in
our ecology of Māoridom there are all these things that they have to be considered and it’s how the
academic puts that across and I think that’s where we’re getting lost in the writings, in the research.
We’re just being looked as people that just say, you know, it’s just the same old academic writings that
come out but in actual fact, we are real indigenous people that have real feelings about spirituality,
cultural, tradition beliefs and those are the things that we want to see reflected – Interviewee #29b
.....................
I learnt a lot and around energy and quantum physics and the measurability of through quantum physics
research of what until recent times has been called spirituality. So you know, when you might find that
you’re able to measure something, ... it’s not that long ago in the time of Descartes that spirituality was
split away from science and now, fortunately through being able to those devices and people with
amazing brains that throw up hypotheses and (?) of behaviour of energy, you know, and subatomic
particles and they are describing energy, right? So it’s definable and describable. So like Te Ao Māori
might use a set of terms which you go, ‘What do they mean?’ But if you sort of go into the world of
quantum physics, which is describing physical behaviour of energy, then it can shed a light on
spirituality. So you know, it’s not a mystery is what I’m trying to say – Interviewee #5b
.....................
just <strong>mana</strong>ging like 100 metre stretch for us at home is so incredibly hypothetical and so our utopia is a
long, long, long, we’ve got years to go before we get anywhere like that. ... but one of the issues, I
suppose being on Hawke’s Bay and the wairua, (Kahua wairua’s?) not so bad – Interviewee #5b
.....................
This also may be helpful this year, having had that three month waka experience, so before we left,
much discussion, well every now and again on tikanga, you know, and but as we voyaged along, we
realised that if it was a life and death matter then tikanga changed, you know, and I think there’s things
that are represented to us today through anthropogenic change mainly that we actually had to adopt
our thinking around, you know, if we are to retain the practice of the (mauri?). So you know, like people
in this room I know are agile around that type of (?), but I know that’s a different type of agility at home,
you know, about what they know, they know, they know, – Interviewee #5b
.....................
I don’t think either, I mean except for the spiritual stuff, I don’t think mātauranga Māori is something to
be hidden anyway, is it? – Interviewee #15b
.....................
Interviewee #25b –<strong>Mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong>, we did some work around the Foreshore and Seabed Placement Act
and the iwi leaders group saw a website, ... they put up <strong>mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong> as a set of four principles that the
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legislation should have been based on from their opinion which was to transform the regime of
<strong>mana</strong>gement. <strong>Mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong> was one, <strong>mana</strong>atua, <strong>mana</strong>tiriti, <strong>mana</strong>whenua. Those are a set of four
principles, now <strong>mana</strong>whenua might not be the same thing, but those ones certainly were there. I think
those were the four.
Interviewee #10b – Did <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong> come up?
Interviewee #25b – Well that’s what I say, <strong>mana</strong>whenua may not be the one because <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong>
would actually be, it might be <strong>mana</strong>(papatu?) or something like that, some variation. <strong>Mana</strong>tiriti,
<strong>mana</strong>atua, <strong>mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong>, and in this case it might have been <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong> for the actual foreshore and
seabed. Those are a set of four principles, but on whakawhanaungatanga, I just want to reiterate the
comments around process. [X] he was a tremendous fellow, every time there was a funeral on he was
one who picked up everybody’s spirits up afterwards. Well you know in the last (?) in (Ngahu?) we had a
tokotoko around the river he went, just bloody beautiful, sixty of us standing, telling stories, singing
songs and with the whanaungatanga amongst us it was palpable. You could cut through it with a knife,
you know, and it would repair itself because nothing could separate us that day. So that, if it’s aligned
with a good process, whanaungatanga is a huge thing to inculcate a whole range of things.
.....................
Interviewee #25b– <strong>Mana</strong>atua, recognising that the framework that we suggested for the administration
of new legislation for the generation of new legislation of ministering the foreshore and seabed must
incur <strong>mana</strong>atua. It must have a cultural (?) Okay, that’s the cultural (?) regarding <strong>mana</strong>atua.
Interviewee #21 – Cultural/spiritual
Interviewee #25b– Yeah, <strong>mana</strong><strong>tangata</strong>, recognises those people who have lived in that region for a long
time and basically have the indigenous rights. <strong>Mana</strong>tiriti, that’s about recognising that there is a aspect
of legislation which comes from the Westminster system is accounted for and is generated by the
Westminster system essentially. Our <strong>mana</strong><strong>moana</strong> in that case would have been a reference to the fact
that the requirements of the administration of the foreshore and seabed is not the same as that which is
administration on the land. It’s a different paradigm.
.....................
Interviewer #2– I suspect I didn’t understand the cultural paradigm and spiritual paradigm as part of
<strong>mana</strong>atua, like you are saying these are the same things? Culture and spirituality are the same?
Interviewee #25b – They may be different to different people, but we’ve found at Ngapuhi that we can’t
do a cultural without preceding it by the spiritual.
Interviewee #15b – And I’d put even for us, at the kaitiakitanga does encompass <strong>mana</strong>atua as well.
Interviewee #21 – Yeah it does
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Interviewee #15b – That’s where our guidance comes from. That’s the basic principle we’ve got to align
with. Does this hurt Papatuanuku? Will she allow us to do this with, you think, and that’s where the
kaitiakitanga, sustainability comes from. So I said <strong>mana</strong>atua, but it is something that I think we, well
when [Interviewee #21] opened up with our karakia, for instance, that’s what we were bringing to bear
on occasion.
Interviewee #21 – I mean our culture is spiritual, full stop.
.....................
Interviewer #2 – So [Interviewee #21] was inviting lots of the concepts going in under these, finding a
place in these four strands of, could I ask you, where would you put mauri?
Interviewee #10b – Mauri goes in atua I suppose
Interviewee #21 – <strong>Mana</strong>atua, definitely
Interviewee #15b – Yeah definitely
Interviewer #2– And what is it saying then, how are you using the word? Like people say, from the
Western paradigm ‘Well Māori don’t have an intrinsic value argument,’ and I’m wondering if it’s just
that they don't understand that word. Is it, how do you characterise that word in this context of
mahinga kai?
Interviewee #25b – Like [Interviewee #21] did this morning, Motherhood and Apple Pie. If it’s not visibly
obviously to you then you’re way disconnected. Yeah it’s just common sense and if you can’t identify
what’s out there then you’re in a sad state.
Interviewee #21 – Well embedded in this is this spirituality that most Pākehās can’t ever get a grip on
really because they don't see the world in those terms and unless you can accept that and begin to
understand what it is, you never will understand what mauri is.
.....................
The extension of this is the belief and understanding that everything has a life force, not just the
breathing living things, that glass there, that stone out there, that pen, all have a life force and if you
can, if you understand that and know how to apply it, you wouldn’t go around saying, ‘well that’s got a
mauri, that’s got a mauri, look at the mauri on that.’ – Interviewee #21
.....................
And I thought he described it really well. The Aussies just lap him up. They pay him to go over there and
talk about this, he talks about the mauri in the water and they said, ‘Are you talking about all the little
bacteria,’ and I think he was saying, ‘Yes.’ And they go, ‘Oh yes, there is life in the water,’ you know, and
this sort of thing, but one of the things he was saying is called (waikui?) which water do you come from?
So he that all incorporated into his kōrero as well. So he was really interesting - Interviewee #10b
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.....................
-is one of the main proponents of the iwi leaders, iwi chairs forum strategy to engage on water matters
and they’re showing the fundamentality of water to iwi nature. That’s why I had that conversation
about the mammals, about economics being fish. It was [X] said the same stuff. So and one of the
things they are saying is that water is such a fundamental to Māori that wairua is a water-based
perspective, the mingling of two sources of fluid, (ko wai kua?) says, fundamentally, ‘Whose water are
you?’ and so it shows that water is not just something that we take in and excrete. It’s actually
fundamental to us – Interviewee #25b
.....................
One other thing, now that mauri thing you were questioning or wondering about, like when we were on
the waka then all our languages came from the same origin right, so we could all understand each other
and I did, they talked about maoli, ... so wherever we went people were singing about maoli, same
spelling as Māori except an ‘l’ for an ‘r’ and I wasn’t hearing anyone talking about mauri so I had to ask
and they, the word that came back was Māori like the way that we spell Māori, so there’s our pan-
Pacific interconnectedness, ... so we might be having this discussion here, but this is connectedness
right throughout all Pacific islands. So it’s pretty huge what you tap into – Interviewee #5b
.....................
And in terms of the pipi too you know, for Mahia and for us in Ngāti Rakaipaaka we find that our
kaumatua or any of us who are feeling unwell want a feed of pipi because that seems to be the kai that
is going to bring back our wellness as a people. It’s the pipi so yeah, and for some reason, it does seem
to work, whether it’s the salinity inside of that pipi, you know, I don’t know, but it seems to work and
those scientists can tell us that, you know, or (hōhā?) or you know, this is not quite exactly a medical,
medicine that is correct, but it does actually work for us as Māori, yeah. And I mean I can give you an
example, even one of our Nannies who couldn’t eat, she had a bit of a, we found out later that she had a
bit of a throat infection that was affecting her whole wellbeing and so my husband went out and, ‘Oh
she just needs a feed of pipi,’ you know, because that’s what we do when we get unwell and, of course,
yes, it brought her appetite back slowly and actually healed that (mamai?) that was in her – Interviewee
#29b
.....................
We’re arguing that through the objectives provided for in the vision strategy, which is now a part of the
regional policy statement that the regional council has to give effect to the restoration and protection of
the relationship of Waikato River iwi according the tikanga and kawa with the Waikato River including
the economic, social, cultural and spiritual relationships. So we’re arguing for a preferred status activity
rule to give effect to our economic relationship as part of our wider relationship with the river because
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unless we’re able to develop our lands and unless we’re able to develop our fisheries, where does that
leave us in terms of our overall, our overarching relationships – Interviewee #24
.....................
Interviewee #24 – We’ve got talking about mauri, not just water quality, you know, actively saying, ‘Well
what is that? How do we restore the mauri?’
Interviewer #1 – So it’s so important
Interviewee #24 – You know, the little things like that
Interviewer #1 – Because if you think of the word like ‘<strong>mana</strong>’ as being you know, all the New Zealanders
have been saying, ‘<strong>mana</strong>’ for couple or three decades now and they don’t even know that they use it like
they use an English word and so to hear, to think of other words like ‘mauri’ and other, just fabulous
isn’t it? Because it means it’s infiltration or-
Interviewee #24 – Yeah, kids go, ‘The mauri of that is pretty hōhā.’ You know, you think, great, they’re
thinking about that stuff
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I think one of the probably biggest challenges, [Interviewer #1], just my own personal view is that all of
the iwi agreed to a collective framework on the principles that we all know, a holistic approach to the
environment works best and we wanted to see the river <strong>mana</strong>ged as a whole living being, you know,
and to restore mauri and to restore and protect the river we had to work together collectively and the
challenge will be, the challenge I think, I see some of the challenges what will be the relationship
between the River Authority and the Regional Council because you’ve introduced a whole new authority
into an established RMA and LGA process so that’s going to be a really interesting kind of testing point
for a while - Interviewee #24
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to a lot of <strong>tangata</strong> whenua those are important things, the lifeblood of the awa, whether it’s the Wairoa
River or the Nuhaka or Mohaka. That’s a very important thing. Not just to get a few whitebait on the
table but that’s sort of like the tuna is their <strong>mana</strong> and the crayfish and the kai<strong>moana</strong> is the <strong>mana</strong> of
Rongomaiwahine sort of thing because, I’m not saying the whitebait is the <strong>mana</strong> of Rakiapaaka but you
know, the best thing if you haven’t got that, you’re disempowered, your own kai – Interviewee #30
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