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294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com `gaxaria sakuTar Tavze zedmet 9 ivliss saqarTvelos Sinagan nene injgia saqmeTa ministri giorgi gaxaria 591 71 39 98 daxurul formatSi politologebsa da eqspertebs Sexvda, Sex- vedra 20-21 ivnisis movlenebs exeboda. miwveul eqspertebs Soris iyo saerTaSoriso urTierTobebis eqsperti Tornike SaraSeniZe. raze isaubra ministrma daxurul Sexvedraze? ramdenad damajerebeli iyo gaxarias argumentebi? SeZlebs Tu ara is, sazogadoeba Tavis simarTleSi daarwmunos? ratom iRebs sakuTar Tavze srul pasuxismgeblobas? aRniSnul da mimdinare poli- tikur Temebze „qronika+~ eqsp- ert Tornike SaraSeniZes esaubra: _ politikuri mocemulobis cvlileba qveyanaSi gavrilovis vizitiT daiwyo. rogor fiqrobT, iyo Tu ara es „qarTuli ocnebis” morigi „orosnoba”, rogorc Tqven ambobT xolme mmarTveli gundis Sefasebisas? _ ra Tqma unda, „orosnoba” iyo. maT SeeZloT, es asamblea parlamentis garda nebismier sxva adgilas CaetarebinaT da rac moxda, is ar moxdeboda. sxva Tu araferi, adamianebi ar dasaxiCrdebodnen. es iyo, albaT, Cveulebrivi „orosnobis” Sedegi. miT umetes, rac Semdeg moxdeba, imiT „qarTulma ocnebam” waago. saubroben imaze, rom es mmarTveli gundis dadgmuli provokacia iyo. msgavs sulelur SeTqmulebis TeoriebSi namdvilad ar waval. aravis provokacia es ar yofila, rogorc aRvniSne, es iyo „ocnebis” orosnoba, rac Semdeg opoziciam gamoiyena da ratomac ara. _ Semdeg rac moxda, imaze uSualod xelisuflebis pasuxismgeblobas xedavT Tu opoziciis pasuxismgeblobis sakiTxi dgas? ramdenad seriozulia „saSvebis revoluciaze” saubari? _ „saSvebis revoluciaze” ar minda arafris Tqma, radgan eqspertebTan Sexvedris dros gaxariam ramdenime detalze isaubra, rac, wesiT, gareT ar unda gamosuliyo. gaxaria apirebs, mogvianebiT Tavad moyves Tavisi versia, amitom saSvebTan dakavSirebiT detalebze ar visaubreb, sjobs, TviTon moyves. Tu aqvs Tavisi simarTle, gaxaria Seecdeba, daamtkicos. rac Seexeba „gavrilovis Rames”, me im saRamos aqciaze viyavi. sanam es ubedureba daiwyeboda vxedavdi, rogorc cdilobdnen parlamentSi SeWras, rac, simarTle giTxraT, ar momewona. es gadawyvetileba ar iyo swori. aqciidan wamosvlis Semdeg televizorSi vnaxe, rac moxda. bunebrivia, darbeva gacilebiT uaresi iyo parlamentSi SeWraze. am nawilSi mTavari kiTxva, rac CemTvis Cndeba, aris: aucilebeli iyo Tu ara aseTi mZime pasuxi parlamentSi SeWris mcdelobaze? me am kiTxvaze pasuxi namdvilad ar maqvs da zustad ar vici, aseTi pasuxi ramdenad aucilebeli iyo. rusTavelze rom videqi da vuyurebdi am procesebs, meCveneboda, rom policia am demonstrantebs nel-nela igeriebda, amitom Semdeg ra moxda, es xalxma gansajos, mas Semdeg, rac yvela mxridan naxaven kadrebs. Cven aseve vnaxeT saintereso kadrebi, sadac melia ambobs, rom molaparakebaze Sesvlas apireben. amitomac Cven unda vnaxoT yvela kadri, erTiani suraTi da Semdeg vTqvaT, vin ra daaSava. faqtia, rom xelisuflebam Zalas gadaameta, amas veravin gaeqceva da am etapze es aris mTavari. opoziciasTan SedarebiT, ufro meti pasuxismgebloba yovelTvis xelisuflebas moeTxoveba. _ „gavrilovis Ramis” Semdeg sabolood dakarga Tu ara „qarTulma ocnebam” moraluri upiratesoba „nacionalur moZraobasTan” SedarebiT? _ bunebrivia, „qarTulma ocnebam” es moraluri upiratesoba dakarga. am mTavrobas saTqmeli hqonda, rom: ki batono, varT uniaToebi, magram sastikebi mainc ar varTo. Tumca Cven vnaxeT, rom im Rames maTac gamoiCines sisastike. maTi saqcielis gamarTleba imiT, rom „nacionalebic” igives akeTebdnen _ es namdvilad samarcxvinoa. daaxloebiT, imaze uaresia, roca miSa ambobda: SevardnaZis dros deni ar hqondaT da me gavanaTe saqarTveloo, diax, marTalia, magram 2012 wels deni aravis ukvirda. axla, 2019 wels, Tu ambob da edrebi, rom 7 noembers da 26 maiss ufro sastikad daarbies aqcia, _ es namdvilad ar aris saamayo. mas Semdeg cxovreba win wavida da nebismier Semdeg mTavrobas, winasTan SedarebiT, cota meti moeTxoveba. _ Ss ministrTan Sexvedris mTavari mizani ra iyo? _ am Sexvedras sainformacio xasiaTi hqonda. Cven vxedavT, rom yvela sxva ministri Cumad aris da wina frontze mxolod gaxariaa wamosuli, is iRebs sakuTar Tavze yvelafers. Cemi azriT, imaze mets, vidre ekuTvnis. ver gamigia, ra xdeba?! Cemi piradi analizi am TemasTan dakavSirebiT aris is, rom mas unda, am situaciaSi yvelaferi Tavis Tavze aiRos, man gadaagoros es krizisi, man gamoiyvanos am xaTabalidan „qarTuli ocnebis” mTavroba da, Sesabamisad, kidev ufro gaimyaros poziciebi. anu raRacnairad gaxaria riskavs, SeiZleba iTqvas, va-bankze midis. _ gaxariasTan Sexvedris Semdeg SegecvalaT Tu ara damokidebuleba movlenebis mimarT. aseve kiTxvaze: vin gasca brZane- ba? _ bundovani pasuxi arsebobs dRemde. Sexvedraze ramdenad damajerebeli pasuxi miiReT am kiTxvaze? _ am kiTxvaze maincdamainc damajerebeli pasuxi ver miviRe. gaxaria ambobs, rom yvelafers Tavis Tavze iRebs, magram es ar mimaCnia damajerebel pasuxad, rom yvelaferi misi gakeTebulia. eWvi mepareba, rom am saqmeSi mxolod gaxariaa yvelaferi, _ ase martivad ar meCveneba. rac Seexeba Sexvedris Semdeg Semecvala Tu ara damokidebuleba da Sefaseba ganviTarebuli movlenebis mimarT, kadrebi, rac Cven im Rames vnaxeT, , ra Tqma unda, sastiki da gaumar- Tlebelia. ubralod, gaxarias rom vesaubreT, man imdenad mkveTrad daafiqsira, rom am yvelaferze pasuxismgeblobas iRebs, Semi- Zlia giTxraT, Sexvedramde, rac mqonda ganwyoba, rom gaxaria Tavis Tavze zedmet pasuxismgeblobas iRebda, es ganwyoba ufro Tornike SaraSeniZe: `Tu gadadgomazea saubari, aseT SemTxvevaSi sxvebic unda wavidnen. marto is ratom unda gadadges, Zalovnebi ras akeTeben?!~ gamimyarda. _ ramdenjerme axseneT, rom Ss ministri sakuTar Tavze imaze met pasuxismgeblobas iRebs, vidre saWiroa. man Tqva, rom zustad imitom, rom es pasuxismgebloba aqvs, ar gadadgeba da saq- mis gamoZiebas bolomde miiyvans. ramdenad logikuria is, rom misi ministrobis periodSi es saqme obieqturad iqneba gamoZiebuli? _ gaxarias pozicias mogaxsenebT, is ambobs, rom ramdenime xanSi gamova, yvelafers erTianad warmoadgens da Seecdeba, Tavisi simarTle daamtkicos. Tu ver daamtkicebs, radgan Tavis Tavze iRebs yvelafers, aseT SemTxveva- Si, unda gadadges. vnaxoT, ras `Cven vxedavT, rom yvela sxva ministri Cumad aris da wina frontze mxolod gaxariaa wamosuli, is iRebs sakuTar Tavze yvelafers. Cemi azriT, imaze mets, vidre ekuTvnis. ver gamigia, ra xdeba?! Cemi piradi analizi am TemasTan dakavSirebiT aris is, rom mas unda, am situaciaSi yvelaferi Tavis Tavze aiRos, man gadaagoros es krizisi, man gamoiyvanos am xaTabalidan "qarTuli ocnebis" mTavroba da, Sesabamisad, kidev ufro gaimyaros poziciebi. anu raRacnairad gaxaria riskavs, SeiZleba iTqvas, va-bankze midis~ warmoadgens da ramdenad SeZlebs simarTlis damtkicebas. Tu gadadgomazea saubari, aseT SemTxveva- Si sxvebic unda wavidnen. marto is ratom unda gadadges, ra xdeba? Zalovnebi ras akeTeben?! aqciis monawileebi, romlebic dganan da mis gadadgomas iTxoven, gulwrfelebi arian TavianT moTxovnaSi da maT naklebad aqvT politikuri dRis wesrigi. politikosebi ki „awvebian” gaxarias, radgan is SedarebiT ufro Zlieri da azriani ministria am mTavrobis fonze, bunebrivia, rom opozicias misi moSoreba unda. es gasagebia da es aris, rac gareT Cans, magram SigniT ra xdeba da ra procesebi midis mTavrobaSi, aseve sxva ministrebi ras akeTeben, _ es sainteresoa. Tu simarTlis dadgena gvinda, maSin bolomde unda davadginoT. mxolod erTi kacia damnaSave? ratom iRebs es kaci amdens sakuTar Tavze? bunebrivia, „ocnebas” awyobs, rom yvelaferi gaxariam aiRos sakuTar Tavze. aseve unda gaviTvaliswinoT, rom „ocnebaSi” Zalian bevrs gaxaria ar uyvars. rac Seexeba ivaniSvils, is cdilobs, mudmivad balansi SeinarCunos gundSi da arc erTi gaZlierdes zedmetad. gaxaria, kalaZe, aseve RaribaSvili wamoiCita xelaxla. mas sWirdeba es ramdenime moTamaSe, rom erTmaneTi abalanson. gaxarias wasvliT seriozuli vakuumi Cndeba da avtomaturad kalaZe Zlierdeba. kalaZes ki, Zalianac rom undodes bi- Zinas, ver CamoiSorebs, radgan ar- Ceul Tanamdebobazea, is Tbilisis meria da TavisTavad seriozuli gavlena aqvs. anu ivaniSvils gaxarias gadadgomiT mTeli es konstruqcia eSleba. aseve maT realurad kadrebi ar hyavT, vinRa darCaT saerTod?! rogorc Cans, eSinia, rom gaxarias wasvliT mas mTeli konstruqcia Tavze daengreva. ar mjera, rom gaxaria moskovis daniSnulia da msgavsi SeTqmulebis Teoriebis. amis ukan, rogorc wesi, ubralod, spekulaciebi dgas da meti araferi. kargad vici, roca gaxaria saqa- 6 N24 (285) 16.07-22.07.2019 w.
294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com pasuxismgeblobas iRebs~ rTveloSi dabrunda, cdilobda, Cems institutSi, „jipaSi”, leqciebi waekiTxa da am mimarTulebiT gaegrZelebina saqmianoba. saerTodac, vici, rom ivaniSvils gaxaria swored gia xuxaSvilma gaacno. mTeli is istoria vici, Tu rogor dauaxlovda is ivaniSvils _ ra SuaSia aq moskovis daniSnuli?! _ am yvelafris paralelurad, Cven vxedavT, rom gaxarias gada- dgomis moTxovniT aqciebi ukve sam kviraze metia, grZeldeba. ra- Rac logikuri dasasruli am sa- protesto muxts xom unda hqondes? arsebobs Tu ara imis al- baToba, rom es muxti Cacxreba? _ bunebrivia, mTavroba elodeba, rom odesRac es mitingi daiSleba da damTavrdeba, yvelafers aqvs Tavisi bolo. aSkarad amas elodeba xelisufleba. davelodoT gaxarias, ramdenad moaxerxebs Tavis simarTleSi adamianebis darwmunebas. _ iqidan gamomdinare, rac Tqven daxurul Sexvedraze mo- ismineT, ramdenad didi Sansi aqvs gaxarias, rom es axalgazrdebi Tavis simarTleSi daarwmunos? _ bunebrivia, Zalian gauWirdeba, radgan gaxaria mtris xatad aris qceuli. me mis adgilas, maincdamainc, optimisturad ganwyobili ar viqnebodi, magram mainc davelodoT, ras apirebs. CvenTan Sexvedrisas, ra Tqma unda, mas es yvelaferi ar uTqvams. _ giorgi gabunias Sesaxebac minda gkiTxoT, man Ria eTerSi agina vladimir putins, ris Sem- degac xelisuflebam gancxadeba gaakeTa da saerTaSoriso organizaciebs mimarTa, Sesabamisad emoqmedaT, ras emsaxureboda xelisuflebis es qmedeba? _ xelisuflebam saerTaSoriso organizaciebs rom mimarTa, es saerTod araferSi jdeba da arc araferSi weria. es iyo marTlac samarcxvino. rogorc Cans, ise dapanikdnen da ise SeeSindaT ruseTis xelaxali gabrazebis, rom siCqareSi es „saswauli” SeTxzes. mgoni, Semdeg mixvdnen, rom sisulele mouvidaT. rac Seexeba gabunias saqciels, Cven unda gaviTvaliswonoT, rom saqme gvaqvs ruseTisnair rTul qveyanasTan. es aris rTuli da sakmaod emociuri, dakompleqsebuli qveyana. magaliTad, tramps aginebs mTeli msoflio, magram amerika amis gamo sanqciebs aravis adebs. amerikaSi demokratiaa da sul sxva situaciaa, ruseTis SemTxvevaSi ki gansxvavebuli mocemuloba gvaqvs. gavrilovis Semdeg urTierTobebi Zlivs dalagda, gabunias gamoxtomam ki marTla SeaSina Cveni mTavroba, kidev raRac ar moxdeso. putinma ki jer Tavisi parlamentarebi akivla da isterika moawyobina Tavis parlaments, bolomde miuSva, Cven vnaxeT, rom xan riT gvemuqrebodnen xan _ riT. Semdeg ki gamovida putini da keTili mefis roli iTamaSa, viRac gabunias gamo xom ar davadeb sanqciebso. mokled, masterklasi Caatara. man Searcxvina Tavisi parlamentic da Cveni „orosnebic”. _ gavrilovis Semdeg vnaxeT, rom ruseTma sakmaod mkacri gadawyvetilebebi miiRo. rogor fiqrobT, ra SemTxvevaSi SeiZleba wavides putini garkveul daT- mobebze? _ didi xania, rusul politikas vakvirdebi da vswavlob. gavrilovis Semdeg rusul mediaSi Zalian mZime da uaryofiTi foni iyo Seqmnili. maT, Cemi azriT, Zalian naCqarevi da araadekvaturi gadawyvetileba miiRes, roca reisebi gaaCeres. Semdeg ki, mgoni, mixvdnen, rom SeeSalaT, radgan, realurad, maT ufro awyobT is situacia, romelic 2012 wlidan gavrilovamde Seiqmna. es situacia aSkarad zrdida ruseTis gavlenas saqarTveloSi, vfiqrob, rom Seecdebian, daabrunon is situacia. samwuxarod, jer Cveni biznesi ver axerxebs evrokavSiris bazarze gasvlas, ise rogorc saWiroa da mainc ufro damokidebuli varT rusul bazarze da ratom unda gaaCeron rusebma es statuskvo?! amitomac nel-nela daabruneben imas, rac gavrilovamde iyo. _ am pirobebSi ramdenad mniSvnelovania bazris diversifikacia da turizmis kuTxiT, evropis mosaxleobaze aqcentis ga- N24 (285) 16.07-22.07.2019 w. `maT SeeZloT, es asamblea parlamentis garda nebismier sxva adgilas CaetarebinaT da rac moxda, is ar moxdeboda. sxva Tu araferi, adamianebi ar dasaxiCrdebodnen. es iyo, albaT, Cveulebrivi `orosnobis~ Sedegi. miT umetes, rac Semdeg moxdeba, imiT `qarTulma ocnebam~ waago~ keTeba, Tu imdenad varT mibmu- li ruseTze, rom srulad ver Canacvldeba? _ roca amxela qveyana Seni mezobelia, bunebrivia, ginda ar ginda, misi wili yovelTvis didi iqneba. isic unda vTqvaT, rom CvenTan unda aiwios servisis xarisxi, swored imitom, rom meti turisti Camovides evropidan. piradad Zalian ar momwons momsaxurebis xarisxi aWaraSi, Tavmoyvare evropelebis didi nawili meored aRar Camova, roca siZvires dainaxavs da am siZviris kvalobaze dabal xarisxs. keTili inebon da xarisxi awion, ramdeni xani SeiZleba iyo aseTi damokidebulebiT, rom mainc Camova xalxi, _ am midgomiT Tavisufali bazari ar muSaobs. pirvel rigSi, es maTi bralia, rusi turistebis didi nawili rom wavida. sakuTar Tavs mokiTxon mizezi, xarisxi ise unda awion, rom rusebis garda, sxvebmac iaron. _ proporciul sistemaze ga- dasvlasTan dakavSirebiT minda gkiTxoT: erTi nawili fiqrobs, rom es axalgazrdebis protestis monapovaria, meore nawilis azriT, proporciuli arCevnebi nulovani barieriT _ es ivaniSvilis morigi xrikia, Tqven rogor Sea- fasebT? ramdenad mzad arian politikuri partiebi imisTvis, rom proporciul sistemaze ga- dasvlis procesi warmatebiT ganxorcieldes? _ pranWvebi, imasTan dakavSirebiT, rom nulovani barieri cudia _ arasworia. es iyo seriozuli daTmoba. saubroben imaze, rom es ivaniSvilis xrikia da raRacas apirebs. SesaZloa, apirebs kidec, magram imis SiSiT, rom ivaniSvili raRacas apirebs, proporciulze uaris Tqma da raRac pirobebis dayeneba, Cemi azriT, arasworia. mikvirs, ratom ar sxdebian mosalaparakeblad da ratom ar msjeloben, rogor gadavidnen proporciul sistemaze. es gacilebiT mniSvnelovania axla, vidre sxva danarCeni. rac Seexeba „nacionaluri moZraobis” damokidebulebas, maTi Tavdapirveli uaryofi- Ti damokidebuleba imiT iyo ganpirobebuli, rom patara partiebi maT xmebs waiReben. proporciuli sistema didi miRwevaa, is mogvaSorebs im Wirs, rasac maJoritaruli sistema hqvia, romelic usamarTlo foras aZlevda nebismier mmarTvel partias. proporciul sistemaze gadasvla Cveni demokratiisTvis Tvisobrivi gar- Rvevaa. _ rodesac proporciul sistemaze gadasvlas uaryofiT kon- teqstSi ixsenieben, argumentad 1992 wlis parlaments iSvelieben, roca parlamenti Wreli iyo da gadawyvetilebebis miReba uWirdaT. ras ityviT amasTan dakavSirebiT? analogiuri viTarebis Seqm- nis safrTxe axlac gvelodeba? `vnaxeT saintereso kadrebi, sadac melia ambobs, rom molaparakebaze Sesvlas apireben. amitomac Cven unda vnaxoT yvela kadri, erTiani suraTi da Semdeg vTqvaT, vin ra daaSava. faqtia, rom xelisuflebam Zalas gadaameta, amas veravin gaeqceva da am etapze es aris mTavari. opoziciasTan SedarebiT, ufro meti pasuxismgebloba yovelTvis xelisuflebas moeTxoveba~ _ gasagebia, rom parlamenti Wreli iqneba, magram, meore mxriv, parlamentSi warmodgenili iqneba yvela politikuri partia da ar iqnebian quCaSi. sjobs, politikuri speqtri parlamentSi iyos da ara quCaSi. 90-ian wlebSi saqarTveloSi qaosi iyo, axla saxelmwifo institutebi muSaobs, Sesabamisad, ar arsebobs safrTxe, rom qveyana „gaiWedos” da areuloba daiwyos. es yvelaferi gaviareT, axla ufro ganviTarebuli da dalagebuli qveyana gvaqvs. Wreli parlamentis aRar meSinia. _ bunebrivi barieriT proporciulze gadasvlas, garkveulwilad, ivaniSvilis xrikad miiCneven, fiqroben, rom mas es yvelaferi Semdeg partiebis mosasy- idad sWirdeba, gansakuTrebiT 1- 2-kaciani partiebis, amis safrTxe ramdenad aris? _ ivaniSvili Tu moindomebs, 5%-ian partias ver iyidis?! bolos da bolos, ivaniSvili yovlisSemZle xom ar aris, ar SeiZleba, misi SiSiT yvelaferze uaris Tqma. _ rogorc Cans, 2020 wlis saparlamento arCevnebisTvis mza- deba aqtiur fazaSi gadadis da mamuka xazaraZemac daaanonsa samoqalaqo moZraobis Seqmna. didi albaTobiT, is monawileobas miiRebs am arCevnebSi. qarTv- el xalxs ukve gvaqvs oligarqis mmarTvelobis gamocdileba, aqedan gamomdinare, ramdenad endoba xazaraZes da ra politikuri perspeqtiva SeiZleba hqondes mis gunds? _ Zalian rTuli saTqmelia, jer ras apirebs, warmodgena ar maqvs. faqtia, rom mdidari kacis Semosvla politikosebs uxariaT xolme imitom, rom fuli sWirdebaT da, Sesabamisad, mdidari adamianebis Semosvlas miesalmebian. vnaxeT, rogor miuZRvnes diTirambebi xazaraZes. bunebrivia, kargi bankiri jer kidev ar niSnavs karg politikoss. aseve ar viciT, ra miznebi aqvs mas, marTla unda politikaSi mosvla Tu, ubralod, rogorc bankirsa da biznesmens raRac gamovaWreba unda? es ucnobia jer CvenTvis. erTi mxriv, xazaraZe warmatebuli biznesmenia, magram, meore mxriv, saqarTvelo- Si rom biznesmenebi ar uyvarT, es mogexsenebaT. xazaraZe Tu mxolod kvirikaSvilis imedzea, is Sors ver wava. mas axali saxeebiT dakompleqtebuli Zlieri gundi sWirdeba. _ am aqciebis drosac gamoikve- Ta, rom politikuri veli ganax- lebas saWiroebs, 2020 wels unda velodoT Tu ara masStaburad politikuri saxeebis cvlilebas? _ jer amaze saubari adrea, aqciebze vinc dgas, iqidan arc erTi araa politikuri moTamaSe. am yvelafers dro da gamocdileba sWirdeba. qarTuli politikis problema is iyo, rom amdeni xnis ganmavlobaSi orpolusiani iyo da seriozuli mesame Zala ar Canda. rac Seexeba imas, iqneba Tu ara es mesame Zala xazaraZis gundi, faqtia, rom maT upiratesoba gaaCniaT, aqvT fuli, rac qarTul politikaSi problemaa. amitomac, es, ra Tqma unda, bevrs niSnavs. fuliT SegiZlia, bevri xalxi moikribo. 7
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