me Cems miTosur samyaroSi avidgi fexi
me Cems miTosur samyaroSi avidgi fexi
me Cems miTosur samyaroSi avidgi fexi
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25 ivnisi - 8 ivlisi 2010<br />
padre, _ gauRima alkaldma, _ Cven-<br />
Tan demokratiaa...~<br />
_ ras unda mivaweroT aseTi xazgasmuli<br />
sevdianoba Tqvens leqsebsa<br />
da poe<strong>me</strong>bSi? am sevdianobaze jer<br />
kidev guram asaTiani miuTiTebda<br />
Tqveni erT-erTi pirveli wignis<br />
ganxilvisas...<br />
_ ras unda mivaweroT da, albaT,<br />
imas, razec pirSimTq<strong>me</strong>li oTaraanT<br />
qvrivi migviTiTebs: `adamians varami<br />
da Wiri alaparakebs. qveyanaze Wiri<br />
rom ar iyos, adamiani enasac ar amoidgamda.<br />
<strong>me</strong>ti bargia. lxins ra<br />
laparaki unda? ZaRls rom uxarian,<br />
kudis qiciniTac ityvis xol<strong>me</strong>~. poeziac<br />
dasabamidan, or umTavres burjze<br />
dgas _ poetur sevdaze da poetur<br />
filosofiaze. ai, ras werda<br />
erTi literatori semuel beketze:<br />
`...im wuTas, misi, erTi SexedviT, orazrovani<br />
sityvebi gamaxsenda: `diax,<br />
marTlac yvelaferi dasasrulisken<br />
mieqaneba~. ai, es _ dasasrulisken<br />
maradiuli srbola badebs poetur<br />
sevdasa da poetur filosofias.<br />
_ batono mamuka, Cveni inteligenciis<br />
erTma nawilma pirdapir<br />
sabrZolo gangaSi gamoacxada _<br />
ariqa, viRupebiT, erovnebas gvarT<strong>me</strong>ven,<br />
Cvens kulturas da sarwmunoebas<br />
ebrZvian da integraciis<br />
mRvrie mdinareSi daRupva gveliso.<br />
cxadia, esec dasavluri politikuri<br />
orientaciis winaaRmdeg mimarTuli<br />
propagandis nawilia da<br />
viciT, saidanac modis... sainteresoa<br />
Tqveni azri, marTla aseTi apokalifsuri<br />
movlenebi gviaxlovdeba?<br />
_ zogjer mgonia, rom aseTi Sexedulebis<br />
adamianebs saqarTvelos<br />
samyarosgan mowyvetil iseT kunZulad<br />
warmodgena surT, sadac mxolod<br />
robinzoni da parskeva cxovroben.<br />
ara, ase ar aris! yvelaferi<br />
erovnul simtkicezea damokidebuli.<br />
myari fsiqologiis erebi jer<br />
aravis waulekavs da swored aseTi<br />
erebis ricxvs miekuTvneba Cveni<br />
eric. man araerTxel daamtkica, rom<br />
ar arsebobs aseTi fsiqologiis<br />
mqone eris damamxobeli Zala. ai, is<br />
ki saTq<strong>me</strong>lia, rom frTxilad unda<br />
viyoT da qedi ar movuxaroT aRzevebul<br />
kulturebs. <strong>me</strong>, rogorc mwerals,<br />
mtkiced mwams, rom qarTuli<br />
literatura erT-erTi didi literaturaa<br />
dedamiwis zurgze da, poetis<br />
Tqmisa ar iyos, am literaturas<br />
sxvisi misabaZi araferi sWirs.<br />
_ laparakoben mwerlobis, da<br />
saerTod, kulturis warmmarTvel<br />
rolze sazogadoebriv cxovrebaSi.<br />
cota xom ar azviadeben am rols?<br />
_ ara, ar azviadeben, Tumca sapirispiro<br />
mosazrebebic arsebobs.<br />
germaneli mwerali, nobelis premiis<br />
laureati herta miuleri ambobda,<br />
rom cxovrebas sasacilodac ar<br />
hyofnis mwerlobao; a<strong>me</strong>rikelma jon<br />
steinbekma ki sul sxva ram Tqva TbilisSi<br />
yofnisas _ samoqalaqo omi<br />
a<strong>me</strong>rikaSi hariete biCer-stous `bi-<br />
Zia Tomas qoxma~ gamoiwviao. gansxvavebuli<br />
azri hqonda mwerlobaze<br />
aSS prezidents jon adamss: `literatura<br />
SeiZleba gamoyenebuli iqnas<br />
rogorc kanonierebis dasacavad, ise<br />
usamarTlobisa da tiraniis gasa<strong>me</strong>feblad,<br />
rogorc siqvelis dasanergad,<br />
ise uzneobis dasamkvidreblad~.<br />
Cven ilias eri varT da viciT,<br />
ras niSnavs, roca qveynisTvis<br />
gansakuTrebul Jams mwerali mozared<br />
gamodis da ers xifaTis moaxloebas<br />
amcnobs. dRes Cvens qveyana-<br />
Si TiTqmis sul aRar ismis mwerlisTvis<br />
niSandoblivi moqalaqeobrivi<br />
xma da es Zalian cudia. mwerlisgan<br />
dacarielebul sivrces ki<br />
veraferi Seavsebs... Tumc amaze<br />
laparaki Sors, Zalian Sors wagviyvans<br />
da modi, es saubari momavlis-<br />
Tvis gadavdoT...<br />
_ Tqven literaturul Sromas<br />
TiTqmis yovelTvis uTavsebdiT<br />
oficialur samsaxurs, ro<strong>me</strong>lsac<br />
adre `sazogadoebriv moRvaweobas~<br />
uwodebdnen. rogor ggoniaT bevrs<br />
kargavs mwerali am `sazogadoebrivi<br />
moRvaweobiT"?<br />
_ Zalian bevrs... da es danakargi<br />
aunazRaurebelia. qarTul literaturaSi<br />
TvalSisacemia simravle<br />
iseTi mwerlebisa, vinc swored am `sazogadoebrivi<br />
moRvaweobis~ wyalobiT<br />
ver moaswro sakuTari Semoq<strong>me</strong>debiTi<br />
potencialis realizeba _ nikoloz<br />
baraTaSvili, grigol orbeliani, aleqsandre<br />
yazbegi, niko samadaSvili da<br />
sxva mravali. yvelaze ufro saSinel<br />
dReSi ki, albaT, vaJa-fSavela iyo _<br />
igi tye-RreSi, saxnav-saTesSi, saTibsamkalSi<br />
daatarebda Tavis dauwerel<br />
leqsebsa da moTxrobebs. gavixsenoT<br />
folkneris ocneba _ sad<strong>me</strong> Ramis<br />
yaraulis adgili eSova da ewera. Tqven<br />
<strong>me</strong>ubnebiT _ uTavsebdiTo... ara, ver<br />
vuTavsebdi da Cemi dro daundoblad<br />
mihqonda praqtikul `miznebsa da amocanebs~.<br />
bolos ki amas vityodi _ xSirad<br />
laparakoben mwerlis daxmarebaze<br />
da Tuki marTla vin<strong>me</strong>s aqvs daxmarebis<br />
survili, mwerals werisTvis Sesabamisi<br />
pirobebi unda Seuqmnas (miTu<strong>me</strong>tes<br />
Cvennair qveyanaSi, sadac wignebis tiraJi<br />
ukiduresad dabalia da honorari<br />
praqtikulad ar arsebobs).<br />
_ 70-iani wlebis Sua xanebSi mZafri<br />
polemika gaimarTa qarTuli Tavisufali<br />
leqsis proble<strong>me</strong>bze. polemikis<br />
centrSi Tqven da SoTa niSnianiZe<br />
moeqeciT. im polemikis eqo<br />
Semdgomac araerTxel gaisma qarTul<br />
literaturul kritikaSi da SeiZleba<br />
iTqvas, rom es Tema dResac `cocxalia~.<br />
ras ityodiT _ wlebis Semdegac<br />
imave azrze dgaxarT, Tu rai<strong>me</strong> Seicvala<br />
Tqvens poziciaSi?<br />
_ ara, <strong>Cems</strong> SexedulebebSi araferi<br />
Secvlila da arc SeiZleboda Secvliliyo,<br />
radganac am wlebis manZilze<br />
mravali mniSvnelovani uriTmo leqsi<br />
Seemata Cveni poeziis mdinares da Tavisufali<br />
leqsi ueWvel faqtad iqca.<br />
<strong>me</strong> ele<strong>me</strong>ntarul ra<strong>me</strong>s vambobdi _<br />
qarTuli riTmiani leqsis gverdiT arsebobis<br />
ufleba uriTmo leqssac aqvs<strong>me</strong>Tqi.<br />
Cemi oponentebi ki mrisxaned<br />
aprotestebdnen _ verlibris adgili<br />
Cvens literaturaSi araao. ise ki,<br />
wlebis Semdeg, Tu ra<strong>me</strong>s vnanob, ai, amas<br />
vnanob: _ ar unda Cavreuliyavi am provinciul<br />
kamaTSi. Tumca... esec unda<br />
iTqvas: verlibris winaaRmdeg mowyobil<br />
laSqrobas TviT partiis centraluri<br />
komitetis mdivnebi xelmZRvanelobdnen<br />
da qveSevrdom literatorebs<br />
avalebdnen, moeSalaT es `uideobis<br />
bude~. SemTxveviTi ar iyo, rom im<br />
xanebSi Catarebul Tbilisis partiul<br />
konferenciaze gamosulma cekas kulturis<br />
ganyofilebis gamgem nikoloz<br />
jaSma sastikad gaakritika Jurnal `ciskarSi~<br />
dabeWdili Cemi `uideo~ leqsebi.<br />
es iyo realoba da masze reagireba<br />
aucilebeli iyo. ise ki, bolos unda<br />
vTqva, rom poezia maincdamainc did<br />
mniSvnelobas ar aniWebs tanisamoss...<br />
_ Tqveni gaxmaurebuli poema<br />
`TorRva Zagani~, ase vTqvaT, `tradiciuli<br />
riTmiani leqsiTaa~ dawerili,<br />
Tqveni poeziis did nawilSi ki uriTmo<br />
leqsis for<strong>me</strong>bs iyenebT. ase rom,<br />
orive saleqso formas erTnairi warmatebiT<br />
flobT. mainteresebs, maS<br />
ratom aZlevT upiratesobas uriTmo<br />
leqss? iqneb imitom, rom es forma<br />
ufro moergo Tqvens Semoq<strong>me</strong>debiT<br />
bunebas, Tqvens fsiqologias, Tqvens<br />
mxatvrul-literaturul principebs?<br />
_ marTali brZandebiT, geTanx<strong>me</strong>biT...<br />
magram aqve isic minda vTqva, rom<br />
riTmiani da uriTmo leqsis urTierTmimarTebis<br />
Tema Zalian saintereso<br />
Temaa da aq am Temis ganxilva-amowurvas<br />
ver SevZlebT _ Zalian Sors wagviyvans.<br />
_ leqsebTan erTad Tqven xarT<br />
mravali esses, kritikuli gamokvlevis,<br />
Tu publicisturi werilis avtori.<br />
Tqveni werilebi yovelTvis interess<br />
iwvevda sazogadoebaSi Tavisi<br />
konkretuli mizandasaxulobiTa da<br />
mZafri publicisturi toniT. axla ki,<br />
ager, ramdeni xania, rac Tqveni werili<br />
aRar Semxvedria periodikaSi.<br />
arada, dRes iseTi droa, rom bevri sazogadoebrivi<br />
da literaturuli<br />
problema moiTxovs pasuxis gacemas,<br />
azris gamoTqmas, mwerlis aqtiurobas...<br />
_ <strong>Cems</strong> `mTavar saq<strong>me</strong>d~ mainc leqsi<br />
mimaCnia da mTel dros da energias<br />
swored leqsebs vaxarjav. iyo dro,<br />
roca <strong>me</strong>gona, rom win Zalian, Zalian<br />
didi dro mqonda da risi gakeTebac<br />
msurda, yvelafers movaswrebdi; <strong>me</strong>go-<br />
literaturuli literaturuli gazeTi<br />
gazeTi<br />
na, raRac saq<strong>me</strong>ebis `gadaweva~ Sei-<br />
Zleboda. axla egre aRaraa. ager, TiTqmis<br />
uecrad da moulodnelad wamomadga<br />
cifri 70 da garkveviT gamomicxada<br />
_ moemzadeo... Tumca, mTlad upatronodac<br />
ar mimitovebia Cemi werilebi<br />
da esseebi. vfiqrob, erT krebulad<br />
gamovce Cemi `doku<strong>me</strong>nturi proza~<br />
_ dRiurebi, doku<strong>me</strong>nturi<br />
moTxrobebi, esseebi, sxvadasxva drois<br />
prozauli Canawerebi (`gaufiltravi<br />
fiqrebi~) da a.S. vfiqrob, uintereso<br />
wigni ar unda gamovides... vnaxoT...<br />
_ `doku<strong>me</strong>ntur prozaze~ gamaxsenda<br />
_ am bolo dros Tqvens Semoq<strong>me</strong>debaSi<br />
prozac gamoCnda _ ase<br />
vTqvaT, `doku<strong>me</strong>nturi proza~. <strong>me</strong> mo<strong>me</strong>Cvena,<br />
rom es prozauli monakveTebi<br />
raRac didi moculobis nawarmoebis<br />
frag<strong>me</strong>ntebia. ras gvetyodiT,<br />
biografiuli romanis daweras xom ar<br />
apirebT?<br />
_ ara, ara! <strong>Cems</strong> ujrebSi uamravi<br />
prozauli Canaweria: legendebi, gadmoce<strong>me</strong>bi,<br />
mamaCemisgan, Cemi dedisZmisgan,<br />
xeobis saintereso adamianebisgan<br />
monayoli tragikuli, Tu iumoristuli<br />
ambebi... am masalas seriozuli Cajdoma<br />
da damuSaveba sWirdeba da am<br />
saq<strong>me</strong>s Sors aRar gadavdeb. yovelive<br />
amas zemoTnaxsenebi doku<strong>me</strong>nturi<br />
prozis wignSi gavaerTianeb. <strong>Cems</strong> Taobas<br />
mrisxane Jami wamoewia _ mkvdari<br />
da sikvdilze mimdgari soflebiTaa<br />
savse Cveni xeobebi... <strong>me</strong> ar maqvs ufleba,<br />
xelSi kalami <strong>me</strong>Wiros da maT guSindel<br />
dReze araferi vTqva. rac Seexeba<br />
`biografiul romans~, icocxle, kargi<br />
ideaa, magram yovelives Tavisi dro<br />
da Sesabamisi Zalebi sWirdeba... mimaCnia,<br />
rom es dro wasulia da amxela<br />
tvirTis awevis Zalac aRara maqvs.<br />
_ Tqven araerTi poeturi krebulis<br />
avtori xarT. mainc ro<strong>me</strong>l wigns<br />
gamohyofdiT am krebulebidan, pirvelad<br />
ro<strong>me</strong>l wignSi igrZeniT literaturuli<br />
damoukidebloba, pirvelad<br />
ro<strong>me</strong>l wignSi gamoikveTa Tqveni<br />
Semoq<strong>me</strong>debiTi individualoba?<br />
_ <strong>me</strong> yvelaze <strong>me</strong>tad Cemi leqsebis<br />
<strong>me</strong>ore krebuli `Tovlis qrizanTe<strong>me</strong>bi~<br />
<strong>me</strong>Zvirfaseba. zed<strong>me</strong>tad zogad gamoTq<strong>me</strong>bs<br />
("literaturuli damoukidebloba~,<br />
`Semoq<strong>me</strong>debiTi individualoba~)<br />
rom Tavi davaneboT, es wigni<br />
`<strong>Cems</strong> gemoze~ davwere da gamoveci.<br />
Sromac bevri waiRo _ TiTqos araferi,<br />
magram mTeli Svidi weliwadi<br />
vwerdi am mcire formatis krebulSi<br />
Setanil leqsebs. `Tovlis qrizanTe<strong>me</strong>bi~<br />
1975 wels gamovida. am droisTvis<br />
aSkarad Sesustda ideologiuri wnexi<br />
redaqciebsa da gamomcemlobebSi _<br />
axla aRaravin laparakobda `paravozebsa~<br />
da msgavs ra<strong>me</strong>ebze. `uZraobis<br />
wlebma~ aSkarad sxvagvarad aamoZrava<br />
Semoq<strong>me</strong>debiTi Zalebi. krebulis gamocemas<br />
mowonebiT gamoexmaura cnobili<br />
prozaikosi lado avaliani. misi vrceli<br />
werili gazeT `literaturul<br />
saqarTveloSi~ daibeWda. amas mohyva<br />
guram asaTianis, Teimuraz doiaSvilis<br />
werilebi da, cota iumori rom gamovurio,<br />
ase viqeci `i<strong>me</strong>dismomcem axalgazrda<br />
poetad~.<br />
_ tradiciebsa da novatorobaze<br />
ras ityodiT _ rogor gamoiyureba<br />
am ori cnebis urTierTmimarTeba<br />
Tana<strong>me</strong>drove qarTuli poeziis fonze?<br />
_ es Temac CaRrmavebul, gamowvlilviT<br />
gansjas moiTxovs da <strong>me</strong> aq mxolod<br />
ramdeni<strong>me</strong> arsebiTi faqtoris<br />
aRniSvniT davkmayofildebi. `socialisturi<br />
realizmis~ Teoriam da<br />
praqtikam principulad uaryo qarTuli<br />
literaturis umTavresi tradicia<br />
_ simarTle (`marTals vityvi, Seviqmnebi<br />
tyuilisa moambe rad... vinc ara<br />
hgavs kaxabersa, <strong>me</strong> ver vityvi kaxaberad!~).<br />
diax, literaturis dedaboZi<br />
_ simarTle _ gamocxadda dromoWmul<br />
cnebad da `sabWoTa mwerali~ aRviraxsnili<br />
siyalbis ruporad iqca. osip<br />
mandelStami gakvirvebuli werda: `R<strong>me</strong>rTo,<br />
raoden umniSvneloa vaJa-fSavelas<br />
zegavlena axal qarTul poeziaze!..~<br />
rac Seexeba novaciebs _ dRevandel<br />
qarTul poeziaSi aSkarad ismis<br />
ramdeni<strong>me</strong> poetis axali xma da aseve<br />
aSkarad igrZnoba SemarTeba `socialisturi<br />
realizmis~ ideologTa mier<br />
SemoRebuli Stampebis aRmosafx-<br />
interviu<br />
13<br />
vrelad. Tumca, aqve, isic SeiZleba dabejiTebiT<br />
iTqvas, rom zogierTi `novatori~<br />
mwerali `siaxlis~ ucxoeTidan<br />
`gadmowapnvas~ ufro eswrafvis,<br />
vidre mSobliuri literaturis wiaR-<br />
Si Ziebebs...<br />
_ axalgazrda poetebi. vis kiTxulobT,<br />
vis gamoyofT, ra axali motivebi<br />
gesmiT maT mier Seqmnili teqstebidan?<br />
_ vcdilob wavikiTxo, Tumca isic<br />
vici, rom waukiTxavi ufro <strong>me</strong>ti mrCeba.<br />
amitom ver gavkadnierdebi, xmas ver<br />
daviboxeb da Tundac `Cemi azris~ gamoTqmis<br />
uflebiT ver vilaparakeb. ise<br />
ki, zedapiruli STabeWdilebiT mgonia,<br />
rom televiziis aRorZinebis epoqa<br />
Tavis saq<strong>me</strong>s akeTebs _ TviTon axalgazrda<br />
mwerlebi ufro Canan, vidre<br />
maTi nawarmoebebi... aseve zerele STabWedilebiT<br />
mgonia, rom leqsebSi na<strong>me</strong>tani<br />
xSirad ismis <strong>me</strong>, <strong>me</strong>... <strong>me</strong> da Sen...<br />
gasagebia, rom subieqtur motivebs lirikidan<br />
ver ganvdevniT, magram arc<br />
isaa kargi, roca mwerali ganuwyveteli<br />
<strong>me</strong>-dan da sakuTari saojaxo wridan<br />
ver gadis. locviT ki, guliTadad<br />
vlocav <strong>Cems</strong> axadgazrda Tanamokal<strong>me</strong>ebs<br />
_ poetebs, prozaikosebs, kritikosebs...<br />
Cven erTad varT _ `Zvelebic~<br />
da `axlebic~ erT saq<strong>me</strong>s vakeTebT...<br />
mwerlebi xom asakiT ki ara,<br />
upirvelesad talantiT gansxvavdebian<br />
erTmaneTisgan....<br />
_ miTosi da Tqven. <strong>miTosur</strong>i samyarodan<br />
amoizarda Tqveni poema<br />
`TorRa Zagani~, aseve miTosiTaa nasazrdoebi<br />
Tqveni Semoq<strong>me</strong>debis didi<br />
nawili. <strong>miTosur</strong>i nakadi kidev ufro<br />
gaZlierda am bolo dros gamoqveynebul<br />
leqsebsa da poe<strong>me</strong>bSi. mainc<br />
saidan amdeni devi, macili, qaji da<br />
al-qaji?.. ras ebrZvian da ra ar asvenebT<br />
RvTisSvilebs pirimzes, zegardas,<br />
cecxlis jvars, lomisas, kopalas,<br />
iaxsars?<br />
_ es Cemi siyrmis samyaroa, am mi-<br />
Tosur <strong>samyaroSi</strong> <strong>avidgi</strong> <strong>fexi</strong>. Cveni<br />
xeoba Cveni da Cveni winaprebis salocavi<br />
xatebiT, xevisberebiT, dasturebiT,<br />
xatis veeba ifnebze dakidebuli<br />
zarebiT, spilenZis didi salude qvabebiT<br />
iyo savse. am xeobaSi erTad cxovrobdnen<br />
xatebi da adamianebi. xati<br />
iyo xalxis mfarveli da i<strong>me</strong>di, xati<br />
aSinebda da Cvens erdoebSi SemoRwevas<br />
ar anebebda avsulebs; xatebze iyo<br />
damokidebuli sicocxle da sikvdili,<br />
bedniereba da ubedureba, dari da avdari;<br />
<strong>me</strong>ores mxriv ki adamianebi gansazRvravdnen<br />
xatebis Zlevamosilebas<br />
_ sanTels unTebdnen, saklavs<br />
uklavdnen, leqsebiTa da simRerebiT<br />
ganadidebdnen... gavida dro da TviT<br />
Cemive warsuli da Cemive mama-biZani<br />
iqcnen miTologiad _ ai isini: faris<br />
ufrosi ninia, ro<strong>me</strong>lic Wrel mindorze<br />
Wreli windebiT mocekvave<br />
RvTisSvilad warmomidgeba xol<strong>me</strong>;<br />
mWedeli beJia, ro<strong>me</strong>lic bumbulis simsubuqiT<br />
iqnevs veeba uros da gavarvarebul<br />
rkinas bRuja-bRuja yvavilebi<br />
scviva; <strong>me</strong>wisqvile jirkva, ro<strong>me</strong>lic<br />
devis qals yvarobs da is qali<br />
wisqvilis saRvaridan Sedis Ram-RamobiT<br />
jirkvasTan... ai, am samyarodan<br />
gadmovidnen Cemi leqsebi da es Zalian<br />
bunebrivia _ <strong>me</strong>rcxalsac uyvars<br />
Tavisi bude...<br />
_ did madlobas gixdiT am<br />
saubrisaTvis da bolos erTsac SegekiTxebiT:<br />
samomavlod ra geg<strong>me</strong>bi<br />
gaqvT, ris daweras da gamoqveynebas<br />
apirebT am uaxloes xanebSi?<br />
_ <strong>me</strong> erTi ucnauroba mWirs: rasac<br />
vgegmav, verasodes vasruleb. erT xans<br />
erTad varT xol<strong>me</strong> <strong>me</strong> da Cemi `samomavlo<br />
gegma~, <strong>me</strong>re ki vSordebiT, gegma<br />
sul qreba, <strong>me</strong> ki <strong>Cems</strong> daugegmav samuSaos<br />
vasruleb. amgvarad, rasac vgegmav,<br />
winaswarve vici, rom ver Sevasruleb;<br />
xolo Tu ufro praqtikul<br />
gegmaze vilaparakebT _ minda gamovce<br />
anda gamosacemad mainc movamzado<br />
Cemi nawerebis oTxto<strong>me</strong>uli (pirveli<br />
tomi _ poezia, <strong>me</strong>ore _ literaturuli<br />
werilebi, <strong>me</strong>sa<strong>me</strong> _ doku<strong>me</strong>nturi<br />
proza, <strong>me</strong>oTxe _ publicistika),<br />
Tumca isic kargad vici, rom es<br />
Canafiqric ocneba ufroa, vidre realoba.<br />
esaubra xaTuna alxaziSvili
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