APS - The History of Zaire by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu - 3/2 ...

APS - The History of Zaire by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu - Third Sessio... file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/USER/Mes%20documents/...
ISSN: 1570-0178
Volume 2, Issue 7 (6 June 2000)
The history of Zaire as told and
painted by Tshibumba Kanda
Matulu in conversation with
Johannes Fabian
Introduction
First
Session,
Part 1
First
Session,
Part 2
Second
Session,
Part 1
Second
Session,
Part 2
Third
Session,
Part 1
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APS - The History of Zaire by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu - Third Sessio... file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/USER/Mes%20documents/...
TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
Third Session of November 12, 1974
Narrative 3
1.
F: ndiyo/ ni kusema: tuli: maliza:
arisi: ya histoire du Zaire: sawa
wee unaona wee: Tshibumba/ mais:
sawa vile tulifanya mara ingine:
niko: narudia na: maquestions
kiloko kiloko tu: ya:
T: ya kuuliza:
F: madétails/
T: eeh/
F: sawa hapa sasa: tunaangaria:
numéro soixante: [pausing] aaah:
numéro: [rummaging] acha ...?...
numéro:
T: mm/
F: soixante trois: mm?
T: ah bon/
F: conflit Kasavubu na Lumumba/
[Painting 64a] mm?
T: ahah/
F: bon: kumbe vile tunaona:
Kasavubu: Kasavubu: yee iko na
uniforme:
T: ile ilikuya: tenue officielle/
c'est que sababu alikuwa:
président ya république: en même
temps: kama: nani: wa
magistrature:
F: mm/
T: alipashwa avwale ile/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: pa Lumumba: ...?...
T: Lumumba: aliweza: anavwala
costume/ sawa vile alikuwa pre:
nani: premier ministre/
F: mm/
T: bale ni bapeuple/ ile ni ma:
Third
Session,
Part 2
Fourth
Session
Third Session, Part 2
TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
Third Session of November 12, 1974
Explanations 3
1.
F: Alright. So we finished the
story of the history of Zaire as
you, Tshibumba, see it. Now, as we
did the other time, I am going to
go back to some detailed
questions...
T: ...questions to ask.
F: About detail.
T: I see.
F: So, here we are looking at
number sixty [pausing], number
sixty [rummaging] -- just a
minute, number...
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Sixty-three 1 , right?
T: Oh, alright.
F: Conflict between Kasavubu and
Lumumba [Painting 64a: The
Kasavubu-Lumumba Conflict]. Right?
T: Yes.
F: Fine, so what we see here is
Kasavubu, wearing a uniform.
T: That was his official dress, he
was the president of the Republic.
Had he been a magistrate...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...he would have had to wear
the appropriate clothes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And Lumumba there?
T: Lumumba, being Prime Minister,
could wear a suit.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And there are the people. Also
shown are the political parties we
had at that time.
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ma: mapartis politiques inyee
tulikuwa nayo/
F: aah/ Abako:
T: Abako: CRA:
F: CRA c'est: njo nini?
T: CRA: non siwezi na minafahamu
muzuri kwa lakini/
F: MNC?
T: MNC eh? PNP eh?
F: PNP njo nini: ma: unajua maana
yake?
T: apana: sijue tena maana yake
yote ile/
F: Atcar?
T: Atcar: Atcar ni: ts:
association de Tshokwe: ts: de
Tshokwe eh?
F: mm/
T: tuna na: na ile inaendela
sifahamu muzuri/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ bon: na Fedeka/
F: Fedeka?
T: mm/ c'est que ilikuya: Atcar:
Fedeka: Balubakat/ njo ilianza
kuexister: ii kipande ya: Shaba/
F: ya Shaba/
T: ya Katanga eeh/
F: naona bale bantu
bana...?..beba:
T: ile ni mamvuli: parapluies/
F: parapluies?
T: eeh/ bon: ile ni nyota shita:
F: dra: drapeau ya:
T: drapeau ya nyota shita: ilikuwa
sawa niliisha kuelezea ka makati
ingine: six étoiles: sawa six
provinces/
F: mm/
T: ile nyota munene: ni: unité/
F: mm/ bon/ conflit/
T: conflit: ni kisilani:
F: mais beko be: devant le peuple?
T: devant le peuple eh/
F: balibishana devant le peuple?
T: balibishana mbele ya ba: non:
abakubishana: c'est que sawa vile
alikuwa premier ministre: ni
Kasavubu mwenyewe alisemaka mbele
ya bapeuple/
F: mm/
T: asema kuanzia leo: Lumumba ana
tena: premier ministre apana/
F: mm/
T: sasa bapeuple balishutuka/
F: mm/
T: nayee alisindikaka: nayee
alikwendaka ku radio: nayee
anasema vilevile kama: Kasavubu
F: I see, the Abako...
T: Abako, CRA.
F: What does CRA mean?
T: I don't really know.
F: MNC?
T: And there were MNC and PNP,
right?
F: And what is PNP, do you know
what it means?
T: No, I don't know the meaning of
all these [abbreviations].
F: Atcar?
T: Atcar, Atcar, wait, that was
the Association of the Tshokwe,
the Tshokwe, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No, the rest I don't really
know.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. Anyhow, then [there was]
Fedeka.
F: Fedeka?
T: Mm-hmm. What it was, Atcar,
Fedeka, and Balubakat coexisted in
this part of Shaba.
F: Of Shaba.
T: Of Katanga, yes.
F: I see those people carrying...?
T: Those are umbrellas.
F: Umbrellas?
T: Yes. Alright, those are the six
star.
F: Of the flag of...
T: The six-starred flag. This was
as I explained to you the other
time: six stars to represent the
six provinces.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The big star stands for unity.
F: Mm-hmm. Fine. Conflict.
T: Conflict is kisilani. 2
F: So they stand before the
people?
T: Before the people, yes.
F: Did the quarrel in front of the
people.
T: Did they quarrel in front of --
no, they did not really fight. It
was just that Kasavubu declared
before the people...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...that, as of that day,
Lumumba was dismissed as prime
minister.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The people couldn't believe it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And Lumumba put up resistance.
He went on the radio and declared
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nayee: ana: chef de l'état/
F: oui/
T: mais suivant constitution:
premier ministre akuwa na kintu ya
kusema hapana/ balifwata mambo ya
chef de l'état/
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: maneno sasa tuko na version
ingine: [Painting 64b]
T: ah bon/
F: mufano ingine ya ii tableau/
T: ni paka namna moja tu/
F: [chuckles] conflit/
T: ata inaachana: mais namna moja:
ni paka:
F: ma:
T: conflit tu/
F: nani: minaona: Lumumba anav:
vwala costume ingine:
T: costume: c'est que ii ni: non
en couleur/
F: mm/
T: ile ilikuya en couleur/
F: juu ya non en couleur:
haukukuwa na couleur?
T: c'est que: non non/ naliweza tu
kufanya vile: kwa kusema
nitengeneze: mawazo ingine/
F: mawazo gani?
T: ni kusema nitengeneze tu/
F: aah/
T: sawa minafanyaka couleur ingine
ya kuachana: ingine couleur
ingine: yashipo: ya kuachana
tuseme vile/ ...?...
F: ah alafu ile: ile nyota alikuwa
naye/ hapa [point to medal worn by
Lumumba]/
T: nyota? nyota sawa vile alikuwa
na drapeau six étoiles: na mi
nazania mi niliweza kuweza
nalikuweka ile mawazo juu ya
kutengeneza tableau/
F: ilikuwa sawa décoration ao?
T: sawa décoration mm/
F: mm/ na hapa tunaona Abako:
T: tena peko Abako: PNP:
F: PSA:
T: PSA: parti solidaire Africain:
ilikuwa ya Gizenga:
F: aah/
T: ahah/
F: na CRA?
T: na CRA: ilikuwa kama ya
F: hii....?...
T: Kamitatu:
F: Cartel/
that Kasavubu was no longer head
of state.
F: I see.
T: But, according to the
constitution, the prime minister
had no power whatsoever to make
such an announcement. So they
sided with the head of state.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Now we have another version of
this painting here [Painting 64b].
T: Ah, yes.
F: Another version of that
painting.
T: It's just the same.
F: [chuckles] Conflict.
T: Although it is different, it
has the same subjec
T: the conflict.
F: The matter of the...
T: Just the conflict.
F: I see that Lumumba now wears a
different suit.
T: The suit -- that's because it
is not in color. painting was.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [In the other painting] it was
in color.
F: About this one not being in
color -- had you run out of
colors?
T: No, no, I could have done it in
color. I just wanted to work out a
different idea.
F: What kind of idea?
T: Let's say, I wanted to paint it
that way.
F: I see.
T: I used colors in the other one
in order to make it different. One
in color, the other not. Let's say
[it was] to make them different.
F: I see. But this star [Lumumba]
is wearing [on his suit] here.
T: The star? The star is the same
that appeared on the six-starred
flag. I thought I could put it
here to express the idea [behind
it], to compose 3 the painting.
F: So it was a kind of decorative
element?
T: A decorative element, mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. And here we see Abako.
T: There is Abako and also PNP...
F: PSA...
T: PSA, parti solidaire Africain.
That was Gizenga's [faction].
F: I see.
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T: Cartel: Cartel ilikuya ya:
Sendwe eh?
F: aah/
T: aah/ Sendwe Janson:
F: [pointing to sphere in lower
right corner] njo nini hapa?
T: ile non: ii ni: nani:
kibambazi: ya mu stade/
F: aah/
T: ile ni ningazi 1 /
F: ningazi/
T: eeh/
2.
F: bon/ vile tunaendelea: ku:
tableau: ah: numéro: ee: soixante
quatre: ni kusema: arrestation
yake à Lodja/ [Painting 65:
Lumumba Is Arrested at Lodja]
T: à Lodja/ ah:
F: Lodja: mu Kasai kule/
T: kule: nazania unafahamu kule
eh? [chuckles]
F: mm/
T: bon arrestation à Lodja: ni
kusema makati ile alikimbiaka:
alifungwaka sawa vile
nalikuelezea/
F: ndiyo/
T: wee utaweza kuniuliza mambo
unaona ndani: utaweza kuuliza na
mingi/
F: na eko na wa: Peugeot: quatre
cent trois/
T: Peugeot: quatre cent et trois:
ni mamarques ile ya zamani/quatre
cent et trois: ata kama unoana
modèle yake sawa quatre cent
quatre: ni kwa kuonyesha tu kama
ni Peugeot nalifanya/
F: ni kusema ilikuwa karibu:
enfin: ndani ya mugini ao?
T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/
F: na bale basoldats beko banani?
ba:
T: ANC/
F: ANC/
T: Armée Nationale Congolais
[sic]/
F: aah/
T: Congolaise ou bien?
F: mais nani alimubamba kule?
T: Yes.
F: And CRA?
T: And CRA, that was...
F: This one ...?...
T: Kamitatu's.
F: [And then] Cartel.
T: Cartel. Cartel was Sendwe's,
right?
F: I see.
T: Yes, Sendwe Janson.
F: [pointing to a sphere in lower
right corner] And what is this
here?
T: That -- no, that belongs to a
wall in the stadium.
F: I see.
T: These are stairs.
F: Stairs.
T: Yes.
2.
F: Fine, so we go on and come to
painting number sixty-four, that
is, to [Lumumba] being arrested in
Lodja [Painting 65: Lumumba Is
Arrested at Lodja].
T: At Lodja, yes.
F: Lodja, down in the Kasai.
T: That's where it is, I think you
know the region, right? [chuckles]
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright. Arrest at Lodja. It's
about the time when he fled from
his [house] arrest [in Kinshasa]
as I explained to you.
F: Yes.
T: You can ask me about the things
you see in this [painting]. You
can ask many questions.
F: So Lumumba has a Peugeot 403.
T: The Peugeot 403 is one of the
old models. But about the 403 --
even if you see another model, for
instance, the 404, you would
recognize that I painted a
Peugeot.
F: It seems [that Lumumba was
arrested] near the town, right?
T: No, it was in the town.
F: And who were the soldiers?
T: ANC.
F: ANC.
T: The Congolese National Army.
F: I see.
T: It is Congolese, right? 4
F: But who actually made the
arrest?
T: Made the arrest there?
F: Mm-hmm.
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T: kule kumubamba kule?
F: mm/
T: nazania: kufwata vile balisema:
ilikuya colonel Tshatshi: njo ali:
balitumaka kwenda kumubamba kule/
sawa vile ilikuwa mission/ hawezi
nakatala/ hatuwezi: paka kutoka
kwenda/
F: mission/ ya:
T: sa: ili: balimu: commissioner/
sawa vile ata wee nduku yako: hata
o: kama uko militaire: banakutuma
kwenda bamba baba yako: utabamba/
F: mm/
T: mm/
3.
F: arrestation à Lodja: sasa tuko
tunafika mu soixante: tableau
soixante cinq: [Painting 66:
Lumumba Is Brought before the
People] tunaona: [reading from
painting] Lumumba devant le peuple
au stade ex-Baudoin premier/
T: bon/
F: ni kuisha: kish: nani: kiisha
ku: kumubamba/
T: c'est ça/ kisha kumubamba ku
Lodja/
F: mm/
T: balimuleta sasa: ku Kinshasa/
sawa vile nalikuambia kama mambo
ilipitaka kule: ni mambo ya
bakubwa/ eeh?
F: mm/
T: ni kweli Lumumba alifungwa sawa
na ii nkamba ile: chemise: koti
ile baliisha kutosha: anabakia na
chemise: anatosha chemise ndani ya
pantalon: anababakia tu:
F: juu ya nini?
T: wazi/ kutosha chemise ndani ya
pantalon?
F: ...?...
T: ni bule tu/
F: mm/
T: sawa hivi kama uko ni kufungwa:
utaweza kutosha bilatu: na ...?...
mikulu bule: na: ile: na bale
bamilitaires banashimama:
ba...?... bunduki ku mikono: na ku
mukongo: ile ni: tribune: ku
mukongo kuko batu/
F: mm/
T: aah/
F: na hapa tunaona: mapublicités/
T: Belga: Martini: AMI: Agence
Maritime Internationale: Gallic:
Coca Cola: ni: mapublicités/
T: I think -- and here I follow
what was being talked about -- it
was Colonel Tshatshi. He was sent
to arrest Lumumba there. It was
like a mission and he could not
refuse to go. You cannot refuse,
you just take off and go there.
F: What kind of mission was this?
T: He had orders. If you are a
military man and they give you an
order to arrest a relative, even
your own father, you'll do it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
3.
F: [So that was] arrest at Lodja,
now we come to painting sixty-five
[Painting 66: Lumumba Is Brought
before the People]. We see
[reading from painting] Lumumba
before the people in the former
Baudouin I stadium.
T: Alright.
F: This is after he was arrested.
T: That's right, after he was
arrested in Lodja.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So after arresting him at Lodja
they brought Lumumba to Kinshasa.
But as I told you before, what
happened there is one of those
things that concern the big shots,
right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Fact is, that Lumumba was tied
with a rope. They had taken off
his coat and his shirt was hanging
out of his pants. That is how he
was standing [there]...
F: Why that?
T: For everyone to see. Why they
pulled the shirt from his pants?
F: ...?...
T: It was just one of those
things.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: If you are locked up you will
have to take off your shoes and go
barefoot. At any rate, there are
soldiers standing next to him,
guns in their hands, and behind
them there is the grand stand
where the people are.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And here we see commercial
signs.
T: Belga, Martini, AMI,
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F: mapublicités ...?... mu stade/
T: mm/
F: mm/ sasa minaona ile: nani: ko:
T: bon/
F: fia yabo/
T: c'est ça/
F: inaachana/
T: ii ni: justice militaire/
F: justice militaire/
T: eeh/ bale ni baPM/ Police
Militaire/
F: haba?
T: hapana: bale uliona kule/
.../...ya mwisho/
F: ah bale bale: tuliona ku Lodja:
T: ni PM/
F: PM/
T: bon:
F: Police Militaire/
T: sasa hii: ni justice militaire/
F: na nani: na kofia yabo:
T: na kofia yabo/
F: inaachana/
T: inaachana/
F: eyo/
T: eheh/
F: mm/ sasa tu bakukre:
répresenter devant le peuple: sawa
vile unasema:
T: bon/ ilikuwa sawa vile mbele ya
bapeuple: mais sawa nikukuambia
kama ni mambo ya bakubwa
ilipitaka/ na shee bengine
tunafahamu vile ilipitaka/ mais:
ni nambo ya bakubwa/ niliisha
kuelezea lakini/ mm/ ni mambo
mingi ilipitaka kule/ c'est
kulikuwa bakubwa mingi kule/
F: ku stade?
T: ku stade eeh/
4.
F: tena: calvaire d'Afrique/
[Painting 67a and b: African
Calvary] tuko na mbili/
T: calvaire d'Afrique: muko na
mbili: ya rangi ya kuachana/
F: eh/
T: en couleur: na yashipo en
couleur/ iko sawa foto anabeba
madame: madame Fabian alinikamata:
F: mm/
International Sea Agents, Gallic,
Coca Cola -- these are commercial
signs.
F: So there were commercial sign
in the stadium?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. Now I see -- what do
you call them? -- hel...
T: Right...
F: Their helmets.
T: That's right.
F: They are different.
T: These belong to the Justice
Militaire.
F: Justice Militaire.
T: Yes, those others were PM,
military police.
F: These here?
T: No, the ones you saw on the
last painting.
F: Ah, the ones we saw in Lodja.
T: They were PM.
F: PM.
T: Right.
F: Police Militaire.
T: The ones [you see here] are
Justice Militaire.
F: And their helmets...
T: Their helmets...
F: Are different.
T: Are different.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm. So Lumumba is being
presented to the people, as you
said.
T: Right. It happened before the
people but, as I told you, what
happened there is the big shots'
affair. Some among us know what
happened but it's something that
concerns the big shot. Lots of
things happened there, because
many big shots where there in the
stadium.
F: In the stadium?
T: In the stadium, yes.
4.
F: Then comes African Calvary
[Painting 67a and b: African
Calvary]. We have two versions.
T: You have two [paintings of]
African Calvary. The difference is
the color.
F: Yes.
T: One in color, the other not.
This is like the photographs Mrs.
Fabian took of me.
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T: alisema atakamata en couleur:
na atakamata ya mu noir/
F: mm/
T: njo vile ni minafanya/ nafanya:
en couleur: na en noir/ bon/ ni
paka pamoja tu/ kama uko na
maulizo: nitakujibu/
F: ndiyo/ kumbe tunaona: ni paka:
Luano:
T: ni Luano/
F: kiwanza ya:
T: ya: ii ni tour de contrôle: ile
ni avion: ya Sabena/
F: mm/
T: bon: ni nkamba ile: haba: ni
ba: bantu ya sûreté: sawa vile
balikwenda kumupeleka sababu:
kutuma kwa kintu yote: yapashwa
sûreté ajue/ sawa sasa apa umu tu
ni CND: yapashwa ijue/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na beko gendarmes: bagendarmes
de:
T: bagendarmes: ya Katanga/
F: ya Katanga/
T: eeh/
F: aah/ naona croisettes/
T: troisettes [sic]: iko ile nani:
mukub: ile: ata pa drapeau ya
Katanga uliona? zette [sic]/
F: bon: pa fasi ya ma: nyota:
balikuwa na croisettes ku ma:
T: bo banakuwa na croisettes aah:
na croi:
F: mabega/
T: aah ni vile tuseme/
F: mm/ nayee anafanana na Tshombe/
[pointing] huyu/
T: apana/
F: mm/
T: sawa hii wakati balimuletaka
yee: Tshombe akukuyake yee apa
hapana/
F: hapana/
T: Tshombe alikuwa mu safari/ huyu
alikuyaka kule alikuyaka Kibwe:
Munongo: njo balipatikana kule/
F: mm/
F: Mm-hmm.
T: She said that she would
photograph me in color as well as
in black [and white].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that's what I did. I
painted (one) in color and (one)
in black (and white). Alright.
It's the same thing. If you have
questions, I'll answer.
F: Yes. So we see Luano [airport].
T: It's Luano.
F: The airport.
T: This is the control tower, and
there is the Sabena plane.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, [Lumumba is tied up
with] this rope and those are
agents of the sûreté.They went to
fetch him because they are always
sent whenever there is something,
the sûreté must know about it.
Nowadays we have the CND that is
charged with gathering
intelligence.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And those are gendarmes of...
T: Katanga gendarmes.
F: Katanga.
T: Yes.
F: Ah, I see the croisettes [on
the shoulder pieces of the
gendarmes].
T: Troisettes [sic], they
represent copper ingots, the ones
you saw on the flag of Katanga.
Zette [sic].
F: Right, instead of stars they
had croisettes on their...
T: They had croisettes -- ah, croi
[that's the correct word]. 5
F: ...on their shoulders.
T: Yes, that's how it was.
F: Mm-hmm. [One of those agents]
looks like Tshombe. This one.
T: No.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When they brought in Lumumba,
Tshombe was not here in
Lubumbashi.
F: He wasn't.
T: He was travelling. The ones who
were there were Kibwe and Munongo,
they were the ones who met
[Lumumba].
F: Mm-hmm.
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5.
na: tena: mu tableau soixante
sept: ni kufa kwake/ [Painting 68:
The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and
Okito]
T: bon/
F: Lumumba/ sawa wee ulisema:
uliniambia madétails nazani:
T: kufwa kwake/
F: [pointing] unité/ damu inatoka/
T: damu inatoka/ inazambalala 2 /
F: inazangalala [sic]: banasema
Bob Denard: alimuua/
T: Bob Denard alimuuaka/
F: nayee alikuwa nani? Bob Denard?
T: alikuwa mercenaire ya Katanga/
F: mercenaire/
T: eeh alikuwa mercenaire/ sasa
yee alianza kutumikia Katanga/
F: mm/ na Okito: na Mpolo?
T: na Mpolo na Okito: sawa
balikuya naye vilevile: baliweza
?apa kuwawa/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: balikuwa banani?
T: Mpolo: puisque: eh: Mpolo
alikuwaka: alikuwa militaire ya
ANC/
F: mm/
T: ...?... kama: alikuwa na grade
gani: shiwezi najua/
F: na Okito vilevile?
T: Okito vilevile/
F: mm/ kama iko ga: wapi: mi sione
iko mu brousse?
T: ile fasi?
F: mm/
T: mina: mi kwa mawazo yangu ni
ndani ya nyumba/ alafu sasa
minafanya juu ya kuonyesha: fasi
alikufia/ sababu kama naonyesha
ndani ya nyumba: macouleurs:
itakuya: ts faible/
F: mm/
T: aitakuya muzuri eeh/
F: mm/ kumbe uliweka wingu/
T: eeh/ aina wingu mais: ni
kutengeneza tu kwa: kwa tableau
tuseme/
F: mm/
T: na misalaba tatu ile uanona
kule: c'est que ni idée yangu:
sababu mi kwa kufwata histoire
yake: minafwataka: naonaka: kama
Lumumba alikuwa sawa Yezu/
F: mm/
T: alikufa tu maana moja na Yezu/
Yezu alikufa: katikati ya bantu
5.
And then painting sixty-seven:
[Lumumba's] death [Painting 68:
The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and
Okito].
T: Alright.
F: Lumumba. I think you [already]
told me about the details...
T: [of] his death.
F: [pointing] Unity [written in]
the blood that flows.
T: The blood flows and spreads.
F: It spreads. They say it was Bob
Denard who killed him.
T: Bob Denard killed him.
F: Who was he, this Bob Denard?
T: He was a Katanga mercenary.
F: A mercenary.
T: Yes, he was a mercenary working
for Katanga.
F: Mm-hmm. And Okito and Mpolo?
T: Mpolo and Okito, they too were
killed in this place.
F: Who were they?
T: Mpolo was a member of the
Congolese National Army.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But I don't know what his rank
was.
F: And Okito also?
T: Okito also.
F: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. Where is this scene? I
don't recognize this, is it out in
the bush?
T: The place?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In my thoughts it was inside a
house. But now I did it this way
in order to make the death more
visible. Were I to present the
scene inside, the colors would not
come out and it would not be as
impressive.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It would not come out well.
F: Mm-hmm. So you put it in a
landscape.
T: Yes. It's not a landscape,
let's just say it was a matter of
composing the picture.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the three crosses you see
there, that is my idea. Because
when I followed his history, I saw
that Lumumba was like Jesus.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He died the same way Jesus did.
Jesus died it was between three,
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tatu: ya bantu mbili/ nayee
alikufa katikati ya bantu mbili/
alifungwa vilevile nayee
alifungwa/ ilikuwa tu pamoja/
6.
F: mm/ bon: mwisho ya: ngambo ya
gani: ya [rummaging] Lumumba:
kiisha tuliendelea: na ile ingine:
nafwata/ ni kusema: turudie ku
Katanga/ [Painting 69: The Deaths
of the Innocent Children]
T: bon/
F: sasa tunasem: tunaona: paka ma:
mu: tableau soixante huit: la mort
des innocents/ innocents: tunaona
mumbunda: mampala: bulalo:
T: bon/
F: na wanamuke:
T: na bitunga: ile: ya kichwa:
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: beko banakimbia?
T: banakimbia mvita/
F: kwenda wapi?
T: sasa banakwenda mu ma: bengine
banakwenda kwa Kanyakaa/ ku mugini
moja: kwa chefu moya hivi/
F: mm/
T: kule balikimbiliaka/ bengine
banakwenda mu pori/
F: mm/
T: ilikuwa mateso ya kila mufano
tu/
F: be: balikuwa bantu ya kila
kabila?
T: balikuwa bantu ya kila kabila
ya Katanga/
F: bon/ sasa ulisema: mwanamuke
ingine: batoto yabo ilikuwa:
T: kama anabeba mutoto:
F: ilikuwa m: buzito:
T: bon kama anaona fasi
anafichama: anasikia masashi
inalia: mutoto anaanza kulia:
bataweza kamata mutoto anamutupa
hata chini/ yee anakwenda/ ou
bien: pa kupita pa kilalo pale:
mutoto kama anapita kulia: anaona
buzhito: anatosha mutoto: anatupa
mu maji mule/ yee anaanza:
F: kuua batoto yabo?
T: mutoto yake mwenye kuzala/
anatosha tu kikwembe hivi:
anafungula: anatupa ndani ya maji/
F: ile uliisha kuona: na mecho
yako?
T: ile ilikuwa mambo ya kweli/
bale baliona/ na mafoto:
balikamata bengine/
or rather two others. [Lumbumba]
also died between two people. And
he was tied up the way Jesus was.
It was just the same.
6.
F: Mm-hmm. Alright. So we covered
that angle of Lumumba's story.
Then we went on with that other
[painting] that follows. In other
words, let's go back to Katanga
[Painting 69: The Deaths of the
Innocent Children].
F: Now we see in the painting
sixty-eight the death of the
innocent. The innocent. We see the
smoke stack and the slag heap, and
a bridge.
T: Right.
F: And women...
T: ... carrying these baskets on
their heads.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Are they are fleeing?
T: They are fleeing from the war.
F: Where are they going?
T: Some go to Kanyakaa, to a
village [named after] a chief.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's where they fled. Others
take to the bush.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There was suffering of every
imaginable kind.
F: Did they belong to all ethnic
groups?
T: They belonged to every ethnic
group in Katanga.
F: Alright. Now, you said that
some women -- their children
were...
T: Some women carried their child.
F: It was a burden.
T: Alright, [this woman] looked
for a place to hide, the bullets
where whistling and the child
begins to cry. It got so far she
would throw the child on the
ground and run away. Or, when she
went by the bridge there and the
child would cry too much she would
realize that the child was a
burden, she would take it off [her
back] and throw it there into the
water. She would...
F: They killed their own children?
T: The very child she had given
birth to. She would untie it from
the wrap she was carrying it in
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F: sasa ya intitulé: ba balif: ma:
mafoto balikamata?
T: bengine balikamata foto/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/
F: ilio: ilionekana wapi?
T: mais: apana/ sikuone/
F: mm/
T: mais ili: kulikamatikwa foto:
ilikuwa bitu mingi tu/
F: mais: juu ya intitulé yake/ des
innocents/ mort des innocents/
T: mm/
F: kusema nini: mort des
innocents?
T: njo kusema: lufu ya bamalaika:
c'est que muntu: ajue maneno: mais
anakufa tu bule/ mm? muntu yee
hapana kujua maneno: mais yee
anakufa: bule/
F: ni sawa: sawa bantu
banasumbulia juu ya ile mambo:
banasema mort des innocents?
banasema nini?
T: mimi: njo minawaza:
F: eeh/
T: nawaza ile mawazo ya batoto
kidogo/
F: mm/
T: mutoto:
F: mm/
T: sawa mutoto unabeba/
F: mm/
T: ajue mambo/
F: mm/
T: eh? ni muntu tu ashikie ni ile
uko nasema/ na mvita inye kule
ilianza: yee lwake ajue hapana/
sasa: anashutuka tu: anatupa mu
maji sema kufwa/ c'est que ni mort
des innocents/ c'est que hana na
maneno/ ajue ile maneno ata/
F: mm/ très bien/ alafu bantu
banasumbulia tena juu ya ile
mambo?
T: bansumbuliaka kila mara/ kila
mara beko nasumbulia: bengine beko
nasagaa: bengine...?...
F: banasema tu:
T: mambo ya mastajabu sana/
F: ile ile wakati banamuke baliua:
T: eeh/ bengine: nazania bengine
s: siku nalifanya ii tableau:
tulikuwa na banamuke bengine
kwangu kule: balisema kama: ts mi
shiwezi nafanya vile/
F: mm/
T: minasema utafanya: kama lufu
inaisha kuwa karibu: utafanya tu/
and throw it into the water.
F: Did you see this with your own
eyes?
T: This was something that really
happened. Some people saw it, and
others took photographs.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes.
F: Where did this happen?
T: Well, I did not actually see
it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But photographs were taken,
lots of things happened.
F: But, what about the title [of
the picture]: Death of the
Innocent?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What does it mean "Death of the
innocent?"
T: It means that it was the death
of angels: a human being who does
not understand [what is happening]
and meets a senseless death.
F: Was it that people, when they
were talking about this event,
would call it "Death of the
innocent," or what did they say?
T: [No,] it's me, I thought it up.
F: I see.
T: I had this idea of the small
children.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: A child.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: As you carry a child...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... who doesn't understand
anything.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Right? It's a person who does
not understand what you are
saying. And when this war there
started, it did not understand.
Now [the mother] was overwhelmed,
she just threw [the child] into
the water: "Die." That is the
death of the innocent. She did not
understand what was happening. 6
F: Mm-hmm, but people are still
talking about this affair?
T: They talk about it all the
time. They talk about it all the
time. Some express their
amazement, others...
F: They just talk [about it]...
T: ... [others say that] it was
something terrible.
F: The time when women killed...
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F: mm/
T: eeh/ ni sawa/
7.
F: sasa: eh: numéro: soixante
neuf: [Painting 70: Katanga
Soldiers Shooting People in
Jadotville]
T: bon/
F: ni: les Balubakat: à
Jadotville/ [Recording
interrupted] tena juu ya tu:
....?...hapa/
T: bon/
F: ...?... Jadotville: ulisema k:
kama balikuwa: balikuwa tu baLuba
ya:
T: ya Katanga/
F: ya Katanga: mais mwenye kuk:
mwenye kukala:
T: mu Jadotville/
F: na bo balifanya: ilikuwa mu: mu
mwaka gani?
T: nawaza ilikuwa mu soixante
deux/
F: mu soixante deux?
T: mu soixante deux oui/ soixante
deux/ puisque soixante trois
ilikuwa fin ya sécession ya
Katanga/
F: c'est ça/ ni bo baliweka
drapeau ya Congo/
T: drapeau:
F: juu ya kuonyesha: she tuna:
T: kama tunakatala ile mambo/
atupende ile mambo ya drapeau ya
Katanga/ sawa vile drapeau ya
Katanga: kule iko ni ku centre: ya
Likasi/
F: c'est ça/ hapa ni mu avenue
Sanga/
T: avenue baSanga/
F: oui/
T: eheh/
F: na:
T: kule ya avenue Basanga oui/
F: [goes to door and tells
children to make less noise,
pause] di: muachie makelele eh?
ah: kama baachie makelele ...?...
T: mm/
T: Yes. I think others -- on the
day when I painted this picture
there were some women at my house
there and they said: "I could
never do a thing like this."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "You would do it," I said,
"when death comes close, you are
just going to do it."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, that's how it is.
7.
F: Now number sixty-nine [Painting
70: Katanga Soldiers Shooting
People in Jadotville].
T: Fine.
F: It is [about] the Balubakat in
Jadotville. [Recording
interrupted] So then this here
....?...
T: Alright.
F: ...?... Jadotville. You said
that they were Luba from...
T: ...from Katanga.
F: From Katanga, but they were
living in ...
T: ... Jadotville.
F: And they did -- what was the
year?
T: I think it was in '62.
F: In '62?
T: in '62, yes. '62, because in
'63 the Katanga secession was
over.
F: That's it, and those people
were flying the flag of the united
Congo.
T: The flag.
F: Because they wanted to show:
We...
T:... we are against this affair
[the secession], we don't like the
Katangese flag. The Katanga flag
was in the center of the town of
Likasi
F: Right, the scene is on Sanga
Avenue.
T: The avenue of the Sanga.
F: Yes.
T: Right.
F: And...
T: [It is] there on Basanga
Avenue, yes.
F: [goes to door and tells
children to make less noise,
pause] Listen, stop the noise. If
they would only stop the noise
...?...
T: Mm-hmm.
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F: bon/
T: mm/
F: eh/ tulisema tena: mauniformes:
ya ma: na ile foulard rouge:
ilikuwa tu ya baKangais ...?...
T: ilikuwa baKatangais: na ile
tenue: ni ya bapoliciers/
F: bapoliciers/
T: eeh/
F: na ile motokari inachoma:
T: ni tembo: ni tembo/ sawa vile
ilikuwa murefu eh?
F: oui/
T: apa njo ilikuwa ntundu yulu/
F: na tundu yulu:
T: sasa kama inapita: tunasema
tembo/
F: tembo [chuckles]/
T: ilitoka tangu: ni ilikuwa ya
baBelges: baliacha eh?
F: baBelges baliacha?
T: ya temps colonial ya:
F: eyo/
T: njo baliachaka/ siku ya le
trente juin: ni ile njo
ilitembeaka/
F: ahah/
T: eeh/
8.
F: donc septante: septante:
[Painting 71: The Monster of the
Secession] sawa ni: tulisimama mu
septante: non: mu soixante neuf:
sasa septante ile mammouth/ ile:
T: mammouth eh:
F: baliyenga mu: Comekat?
T: mu Comekat ya Likasi:
F: ...?...
T: sawa vile nilikuambia kama
uneanda njia ya L: ya Kolwezi: uku
ngambo: utaona ile: atélier
tuseme/
F: mm/
T: aah/
F: mammouth/ iliandikwa juu: wee
uli: uliisha kuona na mecho yako?
T: ile mammouth?
F: ah/
T: mi nilikwendaka kuona pale beko
nayenga/ sawa b: sawa vile: baba
alikuwa mu Likasi: mu Likasi
mulikuwa vita kidogo/
F: mm/
T: tunaanzaka kutembea/
F: Alright.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Well, then we said about the
uniforms, those with the red
scarf, they belonged to the
Katangese, right?
T: They were Katangese, and it was
the uniform of the police.
F: The police.
T: Yes.
F: And what about that vehicle
there which is burning?
T: That was tembo, the elephant.
Because it was big, right?
F: Yes.
T: And it had this nozzle up
there.
F: A nozzle up there.
T: We used to call it tembo
whenever it came by.
F: Elephant [chuckles].
T: It went back to the time of the
Belgians, they left is, right?
F: The Belgian left it?
T: [It was left] from colonial
times.
F: I see.
T: They had left it behind. It
used to be driven around on June
30, Independence day.
F: Aha.
T: Yes.
8.
F: So this is [number] seventy
[Painting 71: The Monster of the
Secession. We stopped at number
seventy, no, sixty-nine; so this
is seventy [showing] this mammoth.
T: The mammoth, yes.
F: Was it at Comekat where they
built it?
T: At Comekat in Likasi.
F: ...?...
T: As I told you when you take the
road to Kolwezi, you will see the
workshop.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Mammoth, it's written on it.
Did you see it with your own eyes?
T: The mammoth?
F: Yes.
T: I used to go to the place were
they were building it and watch.
My father worked in Likasi. There
was not much fighting in Likasi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So we would roam the town.
F: Mm-hmm.
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F: mm/
T: na benzetu: shee hatukujue
asema: aba ni baKatangais: aba ni
bahuku: she tulikuwa barafiki tu:
batoto kidogo/ tuko nakwenda: mais
tuliisha kuwa bantu/ tulikuwa déjà
mu cinquième primaire/
F: mm/
T: ah/ cinquième primaire [talking
to himself]: non ce n'est pas
juste/ ce juste: aah/ nalikuwa
déjà nazania mu quatrième/
F: quatrième/
T: eeh/ quatrième primaire/
F: na mulitemb: ile wakati
mulitembea na bale ba ...?...?
T: tuna mu tembea: shee tulikuwa
na barafiki tu/
F: mm/
T: na rafiki yangu mwenyewe tena
ali: potea sasa: alikufa tuseme/
ah: Jean/ Yav/ tunaanza kwenda
naye: kutembea kule:
F: mm/
T: tunarudia: tulikuwa maparcelles
karibu/
F: mm/ kisha ilifika: eh: ile ile
mammouth ali: ilifika: eh:
Lubumbashi:
T: bon/ kufika Lubumbashi: sawa
vile nalikuambia: bali: pika:
masasi/
F: masasi/
T: eeh/
F: na moya:
T: sawa nilikuambia kama: eeh:
kuko Indien moya/ sawa vile
?naliambia ...?...: na kuko mimbo
ya baLuba inyee ile ba...?...
F: aah ile mwimbo/ inafaa: inafaa:
T: eeh/ [chuckles]
F: ndiyo/
T: bon/ voilà/ sawa vile mwimbo:
banaimbaka asema: nani: ts: char
de: bon/ eh [hesitates]
utaniexcuser eh?
F: ndiyo/ char:
T: [sings] char de combat: waswi
likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena
watwana Indiani/ Iindiani: wafika
pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya
Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke
kitema/ baKatanga nibipoyo pa
nyuma ke banyemaa/ baKatanga
nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends]
ni pa mwisho pale eh?
F: mm/
T: njo banaanzaka kuimba/ ilikuwa
T: With our peers. We did not know
about who was originally from
Katanga [or not], we were just
friends, small children, running
together. Although, not really
that small because we were already
in the fourth grade of primary
school.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, or was it fifth grade
[talking to himself], no, that's
not true. Or it is, yes, I think I
was already in fourth grade.
F: Fourth [grade].
T: Yes, fourth grade, elementary
school.
F: So you went out around at that
time with those...?...
T: When we went out, it was with
friends.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: My [best] friend has passed
away, he died. Yes, this was Jean
Yav. We used to go out together.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Then we would come back to our
lots that were close.
F: Mm-hmm. So the mammoth
eventually got to Lubumbashi.
T: Alright. When it got to
Lubumbashi they fired bullets at
it.
F: Bullets.
T: Yes.
F: And one person...
T: It was a I told you: There was
an Indian [who got the mammoth],
as I told you. [In those days],
the Luba people had a song
about...
F: Ah, that song, it should....
T: Yes [chuckles]. 7
F: Yes.
T: So, here it is. This is how it
went. The sang: "The -- what do
you call it? -- tank..." Well
[hesitates], you'll excuse me?
F: Yes, about the tank.
T: [sings in Luba] Char de combat:
waswi likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena
watwana Indiani/ Indiani: wafika
pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya
Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke
kitema/ baKatanga nibipoyo pa
nyuma ke banyemaa/ baKatanga
nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends] 8
And that was the end, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
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mwimbo ya révolution ya ...?..
F: mwimbo ya Katanga?
T: ni ya Katanga/ ilikuwa mimbo ya
révolution yabo: à part: nani:
Katanga/
F: mm/
T: na bo balikatalaka ile mambo/
sasa baKatangais banakuita asema:
barebelles: ya sécession:
Katangaise/
F: mm/
T: njo vile ilikuyaka/
F: mm/
T: ahah/
F: ku: ugeuze tu: mu Swahili/
T: bon/ mu Swahili ni kusema:
nani: nani: baKatanga balitafuta
kuingia: na char: na ile: mammouth
yabo/ mm/ sawa: nani: Indiani:
alipikaka bunduki moja tu:
ilikamata: ku ile char: na ile
char: iliwaka: [claps] balikimbia/
balikimbiaka na bifulushi: pa
mabega/
F: [chuckles]
T: c'est que: mambo: yote iliisha/
ilikuwa chance ya ule: ya ule
Indien/ eeh/
F: eeh/ na baONU/
T: c'est ça/ mm/
F: kumbe bale bengine bote
banakimbia: paka ile Indien?
T: ah ile Indien:
F: ule Indien:
T: njo banakimbia/
F: ahah/
T: ehem/ ah bale bote banakimbia:
banakimbia char/
F: ndiyo/
T: bale baONU/
F: ndiyo/
T: banakimbia: pake ula Indien
alifunga roho asema kama nikufwa:
nikufwe/ njo alipika: ndani ya
ntundu ile ya: canon:
F: mm/
T: et puis kinawaka moto/ unaona
ile ma: bunduki yote iko napika:
ile ma: ma: ma kama ni mabombes
kama nini: beko napika kule:
F: eeh/
T: iko napasuka tu/
F: eeh/
T: yee anakwenda tu/
F: eeh/
T: eeh/
T: That's the song they sang, it
was a revolutionary song....
F: A song from Katanga?
T: It was from Katanga. It was a
song of their Katangese
revolution.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They were against [the
secession]. So the Katangese
called them rebels against the
secession of Katanga. 9
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it was.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Translate [the song] in
Swahili.
T: Alright, in Swahili it says,
"The Katangese wanted to get into
the tank, that mammoth of theirs."
Mm-hmm. "Then an Indian fired his
gun just once and got the tank.
And they 10 fled [claps] and the
tank stayed behind. They ran away,
their belongings [lit. bundles] on
their shoulders.
F: [chuckles]
T: And that was the end of that
affair. It was that Indian's luck.
F: Some one from the UN.
T: Right, mm-hmm.
F: So, all the others ran away,
just this Indian....
T: Ah, this Indian...
F: This Indian...
T: ...[fired a shot and] they ran
away.
F: I see.
T: Yes, all of them ran away from
the tank.
F: Yes.
T: All [the soldiers] of the UN...
F: Yes.
T: ... they ran away, only this
Indian soldier had the courage to
say: "If I die, I die." Then he
fired his rifle right into the
nozzle of the cannon.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There was an explosion. You see
[in the painting] that all [the
tank's] guns went off, so did the
bombs, or whatever was inside.
F: I see.
T: Everything exploded.
F: I see.
T: [And then] he just walked away.
F: I see.
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9.
F: bon: na tena: massacre ya
Kipushi: ni [Painting 72: The
Massacre of the Luba at Kipushi]
T: oui/ massacre ya Kipushi:
F: hapa ni s: numéro septante:
hapa septante et un:
T: eeh/
F: paka ku: ilikuwa tu ndani ya
kiwanza: ao mbele:
T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/
F: ndani ya mugini/
T: c'est que ni ku nyumba: ku
nyumba/ kama banafika kule:
F: mu nyumba mm/
T: batakutosha na famille yako
yote/ eh? ilikuya: c'est vrai ts/
F: kumbe: sikukuwa mu usine ao mu
mu: mu:
T: hapana ile tunareprésenter: juu
ya
F: mungoti:
T: mufahamu kama: ni mu Kipushi/
c'est que ni mu: ni ku mu: fasi ya
mungoti tuseme/
F: ni vile uliweka: mungoti:
T: ni kuonyesha tu asema ni fasi
fulani/ mm? sawa ni kitu munene:
ilikuwa kintu munene:
F: ile ile munene: inaitwa namna
gani?
T: ile: shee tuko naita kama ni
mungoti/
F: mungoti/
T: ku mungoti/ mm/ sawa kwa sasa
hapa kama tunataka kudessiner
Kipushi: kusema mambo ya mu
Kispushi: tutafanya puits cinq/
F: mm/
T: ile: ile nani: kama ...?...
munene/
F: oui oui/ na hii: ilikuwa ya
zamani?
T: ii ilikuwa ni ile ya zamani/ ni
mine: ni nani: Prince Léopold/
F: mm/
T: mm/ sasa banaita asema miki:
MK/
F: na baliua tu ba:
T: baliua batu mingine sana/
F: minaona tu mwanaume/
T: na: unaona banamuke
balikuyakako: na batoto benyewe/
F: eyo/
T: ilikuya wale wanakuta: weye:
banamitosha ndani ya nyumba: kama
unaisha kukomea: uko na mama yako
T: Yes.
9.
F: Fine, and then the massacre of
Kipushi [Painting 72: The Massacre
of the Luba at Kipushi].
T: Yes, the massacre of Kipushi.
F: Here we get to number seventy,
seventy-one.
T: Right.
F: This was on the grounds of the
mind, or in front of it.
T: It was in the settlement.
F: Inside the settlement.
T: They came to the houses over
there.
F: In the houses.
T: They would take you with your
whole family [from your house],
right?. This happened, it's the
truth.
F: So this was not in the mine or
in...
T: No, I represent [the mine] so
it will be...
F: The mine.
T: ... so it will be recognized
that it happened in Kipushi which
is a mining town.
F: This is why you put the mine
[in the picture].
T: It is to show where it was.
Mm-hmm? Because it is an
impressive thing, it was an
impressive thing.
F: What are those tall structures
called?
T: We call them pits.
F: Pits.
T: At the pits, mm-hmm. Nowadays,
when we want to draw Kipushi or
tell of something that happened in
Kipushi, we'll paint Pit Number 5.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is the tall one.
F: And this [pit], had it been
there since long ago?
T: It was the old one, it's the
mine "Prince Léopold."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm. Nowadays they call it
MK.
F: So they just killed ...
T: They killed many, many people.
F: I seem to see only men.
T: You also see women who were
there, and even children.
F: I see.
T: What happened was that if those
killers caught you at home they
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mwenye kuzala: banasema: bakia
naye: akuwe bibi yako/ fanya vile
unatufanya/ kama unatafuta kuua/
ata kiisha kufanya: tena banakuua/
ilikuwa mubaya/
F: c'est vrai?
T: ahah: ilikuwa mu massacre moya
[rummages]: ? neno ya kuwazamo/
10.
F: tena: tunaona: mu septante
deux: numéro septante deux:
[Painting 73: The Death of Dag
Hammarskjöld]
T: mm/
F: kufa ya: Hammarskjöld/
T: c'est ça/
F: kule ?naona Panam: mu USA:
T: bon:
F: kuko avion ya:
T: kuko avion ya USA: sawa vile
minasema USA.: Etats Unis
d'Amérique:
F: mm/
T: na drapeau ya l'ONU: c'est que
ilitoka: ni mu Amérique/
F: njo drapeau yake ya ON:
T: ya Amérique: ya: non: ya l'ONU/
F: ya l'ONU/
T: ah ya l'ONU/ ilitoka ni mu
Amérique: sawa vile ilikuwa
kufika: alifia asema nikichuke mu:
Zambie/
F: mm/
T: aina ku pori: ya umu apana/
ilif: asema: ikafika mu Zambie:
kisha: apate mukuya kuingia huku/
sasa kufika ile kipande: iliwaka
moto: na: alikufa/ ile ma:
magambera:
F: na hélicopter? gambera? njo
gambera?
T: gambera: ilikuwa kunatembea
juu: njo kwa kuchunga pa ile fasi:
et puis hélicopter nayo: ilikuwa
kuchuka kuleta kama ni m: ba: pom:
bapo: ni banani bale banaitaka?
bapompiers/
F: mm/
T: eeh? nazania njo ...?...
F: mais: Hammarskjöld ni muntu
gani? un: a: alitoka wapi?
T: Dag Hammarskjöld?
F: mm/
T: mais minaz: sijue kabila yake/
would get you outside the house.
If you were a grown-up and living
with your own mother they would
say: "Stay with her, she should be
your wife. Do to her what you did
to us, 11 when you were out to
kill." And then, after you had
done it, they still killed you. It
was bad.
F: Is that true?
T: It is. It was some massacre,
something to think about.
10.
F: Then we see in [painting]
seventy-two, number
seventy-two...[Painting 73: The
Death of Dag Hammarskjöld]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Hammarskjöld's death.
T: That's it.
F: [On the plane] I see written
USA PANAM.
T: Fine.
F: So this was plane of...
T: It was an American plane.
That's why I say USA, United
States of America.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the United Nations emblem.
This is to say that it came from
America.
F: So that is the emblem of the
UN.
T: Of America, no, of the UN.
F: Of the UN.
T: Yes, of the UN. [The plane]
took off in America and when it
came close to its destination, the
plane broke down, so the pilot
wanted to set it down in Zambia.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Not in the bush on this side of
the border. It got to Zambia and
then it was not allowed to enter
[the Congo]. Now, when it got
there, it was in flames and
crashed. And there are Canberra
fighters.
F: And helicopters? Canberra? Are
these Canberras?
T: Canberras were patrolling above
the site and then there arrived
helicopters to bring -- how are
they called? -- rescue workers
[lit. firemen].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Right? I think it is.... 12
F: But what kind of person was
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mais tangu basécrétraires ya nani:
ya l'ONU: s: général ya: généraux
ya l'ONU: banaanza kuingia:
F: mm/
T: sifahamu makabila yabo/
F: mm/
T: mais ile jina Hammarskjöld:
iko: sawa kabila ya ba: ts: ya
banani? ah eeeh/ aah: quoi ts?
minasahabu kabila hii: ha:
minasahabu kabisa kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: nasahabu/ iko na mu bitabu ya
Tintin: minasomaka mara ingine/
F: mm/
T: mm/
11.
F: bon/ septante trois: la mort de
Sendwe: [Painting 74: Jason
Sendwe's Tomb]
T: mm/
F: tuko naona tu kaburi:
T: kaburi:
F: yake: mu pori:
T: mu pori: c'est que ni:
F: ni fasi gani?
T: ni mu Kalemie/
F: mu Kalemie?
T: aah/ zamani ilikuwa
Albertville/
F: Albertville/
T: ah njo fasi balimuzikia Sendwe/
nazania Mobutu aliwezea kufika
kule: alimuhonorer: mais: na
médaille moya sifahamu ma:
médailles ile alimuhonorer/
F: ni barebelles banani:
barebelles balimuua c'est ça?
T: mais: barebelles balimuua/ mais
kuko mapsoupçons/ kuko ingine:
puisque: lufu ya Kabongo: ya chef
Kabongo: njo alikuwa na ku lufu
yake:
F: mm/
T: c'est que: ba balisirikaka:
comment: yee alitoka anakuya mu
camp ya refugiés: anakuwa
kusikilizana na: Tshombe/ makati
ile ya barefugiés/ sasa sawa
ilibish:
F: Sendwe alikuwa kusikilizana?
T: Sendwe alikuyaka na ?huyu
bwana/ balikuwaka pamoya na
baIleo: makati ile walikuwa:
Hammarskjöld, where was he from?
T: Dag Hammarskjöld?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Well, I think... I don't know
his nationality, but ever since
there were persons who became
secretaries general of the United
Nations...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I don't know their
nationalities.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But this name Hammarskjöld
sounds like he was -- what was it
again? I completely forgot.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I had read about it once in the
Tintin comics.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
11.
F: Alright, seventy-three, the
death of Sendwe [Painting 74:
Jason Sendwe's Tomb]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: We just see a grave.
T: A grave.
F: His [grave] in the bush.
T: In the bush, because....
F: Where is this place?
T: It's in Kalemie.
F: In Kalemie?
T: Yes, which used to be
Albertville in the old days.
F: Albertville.
T: That's the place where they
buried Sendwe. And I think then
Mobutu came and honored him with
some kind of medal but I don't
know exactly which.
F: It was the rebels who killed
Sendwe, is that it?
T: Well, the rebels killed him but
there are suspicions that others
were involved. Because there was
also chief Kabongo's death which
coincided with that of Sendwe.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: People were angry at him
because -- how shall I say? -- he
left and came to the refugee camp
to make peace with Tshombe. It was
the time of the refugees. Now ...
F: Sendwe came to make peace? T;
Sendwe came with this gentleman;
he and Ileo were together at the
time when the latter was
ambassador...
F: Mm-hmm.
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ministre résident:
F: mm/
T: humu mu Shaba/ mais sasa bo
balisirikaka asema sawa shee
tulikufa mingi: wee unakwenda
kusumbulia na bale batu: njo
balimuua/ njo vile ilikuya/
bengine banasema ni barebelles/
mais normalment ilikuwa paka
baLuba njo balimuua ...?.../
F: mm/
T: ata vile chef Kabongo/ balimuua
kuko baBaluba ...?.../
F: jina yake ni Janson/
T: Janson Sendwe/
F: ulimufahamu?
T: ah na: mi nalimuonaka na
kumuona/ aah/ alikuwa mu Likasi:
mu soixante: deux: banamubeba mu
kipoyo humu/ eko nalamukia batu/
F: mm/
T: shee tulikwendaka kule: mvula
ilipikaka ile siku kidogo:
tulikuwa mingi sana/
tunamuongojea: akukutokeaka ku:
entrée ya ville/ mais alitokeaka:
ku mwisho ya ville/ atujue mufano
...?...
F: ngambo ya Kolwezi?
T: non: ngambo ya: Kambove/
F: ya Kambove?
T: njo kule alitokeaka/ shee bote
...?tafukuza mbio: tunakwenda
tunamulamukia:
F: mm/
T: na salut ya kama ni kufa/ kisha
paka pale: njo naanza kumuona paka
ku mafoto tu/
F: eyo/
T: mm/
F: unajua alito: ni muntu wa: wa:
wa:
T: yee: Sendwe?
F: wa baLuba?
T: mm/ ni muntu ya baLuba/ baLuba
ya Kabongo/
F: mm/
T: mm/ njo kwabo/ ni muLuba ya
Kabongo/ karibu na: frontière ya
Kasai/ njo kwabo tu/
F: mm/ bon: nazani ngambo moya
[looking at tape]: bado/ paka
karibu
12.
hapa tunaona mumbunda na mampala/
[Painting 75: Planes Attacking the
Lubumbashi Smelter] [chuckles]
T: mumbunda ya Gécamines/
F: mm/ mumbunda ya Gécamines/
T: ...here in Shaba. But then
people got angry: "Many of us are
dying, you go and talk to those
people." Then they killed him.
This is what happened. Some say it
was the rebels but it had to be
the Luba themselves who killed
him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Even chief Kabongo, it's the
Luba who killed him.
F: [Sendwe's first] name was
Janson.
T: Janson Sendwe.
F: Did you know him?
T: Just by sight. In '62, he was
in Likasi. They carried him around
in a tipoy chair and he waved to
the people.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We went there. It was raining a
little that day, and there were
many of us. We were waiting until
he finally appeared at the edge of
town. We didn't know what he
looked like.
F: Coming from Kolwezi?
T: No, from Kambove.
F: From Kambove?
T: That's where he came from. All
of us were chased away at once. We
had come to greet him. 13
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was to be a terrific
greeting [lit. a greeting as if to
die]. After that I saw him only on
photographs.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Do you know where he came from?
T: He, Sendwe?
F: From the Luba?
T: Mm-hmm. He was a Luba of
Kabongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm. That's where they live.
He was a Luba from Kabongo, close
to the Kasai border, that's their
place.
F: Mm-hmm. [Looking at tape] I
think one side [is full]. No, not
yet, but it is getting close.
12.
Here we see the smoke stack and
the slag heap [Painting 75: Planes
Attacking the Lubumbashi Smelter]
[chuckles]
T: The smoke stack of Gécamines.
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T: njo fasi inyee: ilipikana mvita
ya Katanga yote tu/ sawa vile
itaweza kuwa: histoire murefu:
pale juu palikuwa bwana moja:
alitombokaka/ aliingia mu armée ya
Katanga/
F: mm/
T: alikuwa Kabinda/
F: yee:
T: kisha alitombokaka tena:
alipandaka yulu ya mumbunda hapa:
anaanza kupika: mortier ya
Katanga/ ngambo yote/ ya com: ya
mazones/ ya macommunes/ mu Kenya:
mu Katuba: eko naua tu/ kisha
nayee balimuuaka wee/
F: alikuwa wazimu?
T: alikuwa tu: sijue kama ni
bishilani: kama ni nini/
F: aah/
T: kisha nayee: [rummages]
F: oui/
T: kisha na yeye ali: balimuuaka/
abakumuake balimubambaka/
F: mm/
T: balimufungaka mikono: na
[claps] kumukokota ku jep [sic]:
F: mm/
T: mbio kabisa: sawa anaanguka
chini: eko naneenda kumukokota: na
kukatika nyama yote: anakufa/
F: banani: ba?
T: baKatangais/ yee alikuwa
Katangais/ aliingia mu armée ya
Katanga/
F: eyo/
T: na kisha alitomboka sasa/
F: [chuckles, unbelieving]
T: mm/
F: ile ulijua: eh: uliona ao
balikuambia?
T: non: balinielezea/
F: baliniele:
T: ile ilisemewa tu fasi yote ata
ku radio ya Katanga ilimwaka/
F: c'est vrai? na: ile avions: ni
avions gani pale?
T: ile avions: ni: nani: gambera/
F: ni gambera?
T: gambera/
F: ni: gambera ilikuwa ya ONU?
T: ilikuwa ya ONU/ Fouga Magister
ilikuwa ya: Katanga/
F: ya Katanga/
T: eheh/
F: kumbe kambera: balifanya vita
ya: ya Union Minière?
T: ya Union Minière/ njo
ilikombanaka: na kupika mabombes
F: Mm-hmm. The smoke stack of
Gécamines.
T: It marks the one place where
there was fighting during the
entire Katanga war. [What I can
tell you about it] would be a long
story [but let me give just this
one incident]: There, way up [on
the smoke stack], was one man who
had been exploding. He had joined
the Katangese army...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...although he was a Kabinda.
F: He [was]?
T: Eventually, when this attack of
rage came on him, he climbed to
top of the smoke stack here and
began to fire his Katangese
mortar, aiming in every direction,
right into the communities of
Kenia and Katuba. He was killing
people. Finally, he was killed,
too.
F: Was he crazy?
T: He was just -- I don't know,
was it rancor or what?
F: I see.
T: The he too...
F: Yes.
T: Eventually he was killed, but
not right away. They caught him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...tied his hands together and
dragged him away behind a jeep.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They went really fast and, as
he was on the ground, he was being
torn up, his flesh was torn to
pieces and he died.
F: Who did this?
T: The Katangese. He was a
Katangese soldier himself, he had
joined the Katangese army.
F: I see.
T: But eventually [he just
couldn't take it anymore and]
exploded.
F: [chuckles, unbelieving]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: How did you know this? Did you
see it or did they tell you [about
it]?
T: No, they told me about it.
F: They told you...
T: There was talk about this
everywhere, even on Katanga radio
went on about it.
F: Is that true? And what are
those planes there?
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mule ba: banani: basoldats bote
kukimbia: na mvita: inamalizika/
F: njo mwisho ya mvi: ya vita?
T: mvita ya: Katanga/ ni
ilimalizika/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/
13.
F: mais [pulling out Painting 76:
The Building of the Town of
Mbuji-Mayi]: [aside] acha tu:
nani: tupindule mbele... [changing
tape]
T: ...natosha tableau muzuri:
[rummage]
F: très bien/ ah m: sasa: sawa:
tuliisha kusumbulia juu ya
mumbunda na mampala:
T: bon: tunasumbulia yee ...?...
F: mais: niko na kintu ya
kukuuliza/
T: ah/
F: ni ile tableau bantu banaombaka
tu? sawa vile wee unafanya série
moya munene: munene sana: mais
zaidi: mbele ya kwanza na hii
série: ilikuwa tu wa: tableau kama
ni tatu: ao inne/
T: bon/
F: bantu bana: uzaka/
T: banauzaka zaidi/ eeh/ sasa ku
ile tableaux ingine nakuletea:
F: mm/
T: ile njo mawazo yangu/ mais kama
l'état alitua: alituachia liberté:
tunaenea kutumikayo tena nazani
bantu balitafuta kuuza mingi/ bon:
sawa hivi: tu: tuna ngopa kwa batu
bengine eh? kama unatosha atasema
ooh: una: leta mambo ya zamani/
mais sawa vile nalikuambia kama:
banduku yetu banauzaka matableau:
juu ya: kuweka mu nyumba kufurahi
macou: macouleurs/ sawa hivi
naweka/
T: They were Canberra fighters.
F: Canberra?
T: Canberra.
F: Did the Canberra belong to the
United nations?
T: They belonged to the United
Nations, Katanga had the Fouga
Magister.
F: Of Katanga.
F: So those Canberras attacked the
Union Minière?.
T: The Union Minière, there was
fighting, bombs were dropped, all
the soldiers who were inside ran
away, and that was the end of the
war.
F: That was the end of the war?
T: The war of Katanga was
finished.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes.
13.
F; But [pulling out Painting 76:
The Building of the Town of
Mbuji-Mayi]. Wait, lets turn the
tape first.
T: I came up with a good picture.
F: Very well. So, now [we can go
on]. We finished talking about the
smoke stack and the slag heap.
T: Alright, we talked about...
F: But I want to ask you
something.
T: Ah.
F: Is this [the smoke stack] one
of the paintings people usually
ask for? You painted a very long
series, but before you started on
that series, was it not above all
three or four pictures...
T: Alright.
F: ...people usually bought?
T: They mostly bought [those],
yes. But as to these other
pictures I brought you ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...they were my idea. But if
the state would give us the
freedom to work, I think people
would seek to buy many [pictures].
Alright, as things are, we are
afraid of certain people, right?
When you come up [with one of
them, someone] will say: "Oh, you
are bringing old stuff." But it is
as I told you, our brothers buy
paintings to put hang them at home
and to enjoy the colors, for
instance, as I put them here [in
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F: mm/
T: juu ya: rangi/ mais:
abakumbuke: maana ya ile tableau/
F: eeh/
T: sawa hivi minaingia humu mwako/
minaona ile tableaux ya: Mwenze?
F: eeh/
T: bon: minaona: kama: anafanya
banyama pale/ mais ku banduku
bengine banaona paka ile nyama:
iko furaha/ mais: abayue:
anafansia maana gani: ni ndani ya
pori: muko miti: ndege inaluga
yulu: nyama iko nakimbia moto/
F: mm/
T: ni vile nazani mi minaona/
F: mm/
T: mais: abawaze ile/
F: mm/
T: sasa bo: kama unafanya: sawa
ile ingine tableaux ingine: ooh
pourquoi unafanya vile: ni mawazo
mubaya/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile ulinilomba na mi
naliitika: furaha ya kusema:
nionyeshe: kama na shee
tunaikalaka na akili ya kuenea
kutumika hivi: mais: banduku yetu
njo beko natufreiner/ mêmes les
autorités/
F: mm/
T: anaona atasema: ah: pourquoi
unafanya Lumumba ya mufunga? ni
mubaya/ et pourquoi unafanya hivi:
iko mubaya/ sawa ile: tableau ile
ya Lumumba minakufansia anaisha
kufa hii:
F: mm/
T: nikitoshayo nazani mu
Lubumbashi: niko sûr: sababu:
exposition yangu yote: kama
naexposer: nikipima kuexposer hapa
pa: au Bon Marché/ nitaweza kubeba
vile ile yote ile/ bantu batakuya:
[claps] mingi sana/
F: mm/
T: sasa mu buingi mule utashikia
bengine bana?anza kusema: ts: mais
bintu ya hivi: aah: ts: iko
mubaya/ na au lieu ya kuuza:
kwenda kubakia nayo: mawazo: yee
anasema iko mubaya/
F: mm/
T: [low voice, sentence
incomprehensible] ...?...
F: paka: paka: sawa ...?...
T: kwa hii série nakufansia:
F: eh/
this painting].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's about the color but they
don't think about the meaning of
that painting.
F: I see.
T: Like when I come inside your
home here, I see those paintings
by Mwenze, right?
F: I see.
T: Alright. I see [some artists]
paints those animals. But some
brothers only see those animals
and enjoy it. But they don't
realize what [the artist] intended
-- that it is [a scene] in the
bush. These are trees, birds rise,
animals flee from the fire.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I guess, this is how I see it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But they don't think that way.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Now, when you do those other
paintings [they say]: "Oh, why did
you do it that way, it's a bad
idea.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because you asked me I went
along with it. I was glad to be
able to show that we are
intelligent enough to work in this
way. But our brothers put a break
on us, especially the authorities.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Some one see [such a painting}
and he will say: "Ah, why do you
paint Lumumba tied up, this is
bad." For instance, this picture I
did for you of Lumumba's death.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I am certain, if I were to show
it in Lubumbashi... 14 Because the
only kind of exposition I have is
when I try to show [my paintings]
at the Bon Marché [store] here [in
Lubumbashi]. In that case I could
bring along all those painting and
a lot of people would come.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And in the crowd you would hear
some who begin to talk: "But this
kind of stuff, oh, this is bad."
Instead of buying and then keep
them at home [as something that
gives him] thoughts, he says "This
is bad."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [low voice, sentence
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T: uko muntu wa kuanza unapata
ile/
F: mm/
T: yote: akuna muntu ingine/ sauf
ile ingine: nalikwenda naye kwa
Bol 3 : ku cinq tableau iko hapa:
F: mm/
T: njo naifika nayo kwa Bol/
F: mm/
14.
bon/ donc tu: tuendelea hapa ku
série: tunafika sasa: mu septante:
cinq: construction de Mbuji Mayi/
T: bon/ ni wakati ile mu Katanga
muko mvita: na ku Mbuji Mayi
kulikuwa paka vita/
F: mm/
T: ni baLuba: bale banabafukuza
ku: ku Kananga/ bo balikwenda
kwabo/ mais kwabo: sawa vile
bazungu wali: abakuyengaka ile
Mbuji Mayi apana/
F: aah/
T: baliyenga tu Bakwanga:
F: Bakwanga:
T: Forminière:
F: aah/
T: baliyenga tumanyumba tu twa
bantu ya kazi/
F: ndiyo/
T: sasa pa bo kurudia ku ...?...
balikuya: balitoka ku Kananga/
balikuyako/ haba balifukusha ku
Shaba: balikuya/ baBukavu:
balikuya/
F: mm/
T: baKisangani: balikuya/
F: mm/
T: baBandaka: balikuya/
baKinshasa: balifika fasi moja/
sasa balikuwa tu mu pori/ njo
balikata tu pori: kukata miti: na
kusema tuyenge/ na kama
unakwendako leo nazania utakuta
mugini ni munene sasa/
F: munene/
T: sasa/
F: minaona drapeau ya:
T: ya victoire:
F: ya victoire: ile ya baLuba:
T: c'est que: ni ya Kalonji/
F: ni ya Kalonji/
incomprehensible] ...?...
F: Always only [those few
paintings they like].
T: About this series I did for
you...
F: I see.
T: ... you are the first to get
it...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...all of it. No one else [will
get those pictures], except the
ones I took to [Mr.] Bol, those
five pictures here.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I went with them to [Mr.] Bol.
F: Mm-hmm.
14.
Alright, so let's go on here with
the series. We come to
seventy-five, the building of
Mbuji-Mayi.
T: Fine. This was the time when
there was war in Katanga as well
as in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So when the Baluba were chased
away from Kananga they went back
to their home country. But the
point is, that the Whites did not
build Mbuji-Mayi.
F: I see.
T: They built Bakwanga.
F: Bakwanga.
T: [A town for the] Forminière
[mining company].
F: I see.
T: And all they built there were
those tiny, little houses for
their workers.
F: Yes.
T: So the Baluba got back
together, coming [from all
directions]: the ones from Kananga
and those who were expelled from
Shaba, those from Bukavu...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... from Kisangani they came...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... those from Mbandaka, from
Kinshasa, they all came to this
one place. There they found
themselves in the middle of the
bush. So they cleared the bush,
cut lumber, and said: "Let's
build." And if you go there today
you will see a big city.
F: A big [city].
T: Today.
F: I see the flag of...
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T: ile njo ilikuwa: drapeau mo: ya
nani: ya royaume/
F: mm/
T: ya baLuba/
F: na banayengaka: ba: wanamuke
wanabeba bintu mu:
T: bitu mu kichwa:
F: kichwa:
T: mule ndani muko banaume: beko
nakimbia tembo kule:
F: aah/ mais minaona nyumba ya
kuachana/ nyumba ya sawa ku
mugini:
T: bon: nyumba ya ku mugini: pale
banafika: ndani mule: banayenga
betu nyumba ile yetu ya ku mugini
ya bankambo/
F: mm/
T: et puis baliwekana sasa ...?...
franga: banaanza kuuza matofali:
na kuyenga directement/
F: mm/ na mo: hata motokari
...?...
T: na motokari ilikuya kule:
balikuwa: bintu yote tu/ même
télévision/ kulikuya tu/
F: kulikuya tu?
T: bintu yote ya franga:
ilikuyako/
F: na sasa: bon/ tembo: ulisema:
ni kuonyesha: kama ilikuwa tu mu
pori/
T: ilikuwa mu pori tu/
F: mm/
T: mulikuwa tembo: sawa ku kipande
ya Kasai kuko tembo mingi/
F:mm/
T: sawa kipande ya Bakwa Nsumpi/
na sasa/ kama unatembea: utaona
tembo anatoka pale/
F: eyo/
T: chui: ou bien simba/
F: sasa balifunga nani: kima/
T: ni: kima ule wanafunga/
F: [chuckles]
T: mm: balikuwa na kima yabo:
wanafunga:
F: juu ya nini?
T: ni nyama yako unaenea kutembea
nayo/ bale bengine balipenda/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ ata:
F: kupenda: kutembea na pi: na
kima?
T: na kima kufunga/ ata mimi: niko
naye: na yangu/
F: hapa sasa?
T: ku Likasi/ Madame Fabian
alikuelezea?
T: ... victory.
F: Of victory, the flag of the
Baluba.
T: It's Kalonji's flag.
F: It's Kalonji's.
T: It was the flag of the
kingdom...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...of the Baluba.
F: People are busy with
construction work. The women carry
loads.
T: On their heads.
F: Their heads.
T: There are men, running away
from an elephant over there.
F: Yes. I also see houses of
different types. There are some
huts like in a village.
T: Alright. Those they built when
they first arrived, huts like our
ancestors used to build.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Then they got some money
together and began to buy bricks
and used them for building.
F: Mm-hmm. And there were even
cars?
T: There were cars, everything.
There was even television.
F: Was there?
T: Anything that money could buy.
F: Now, about the elephant. It was
to show that the place was in the
bush.
T: It was in the bush.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There were elephants. In the
Kasai region there are many
elephants.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Where the Bakwa Nsumpi live,
even today, when you take a walk
you will see an elephant coming
out [of the bush].
F: I see.
T: Leopards and lions.
F: And there they tied up a
monkey.
T: Yes, it's a monkey on a leash.
F: [chuckles]
T: People had monkeys whom they
kept on a leash.
F: What for?
T: It's an animal you can walk
around with. Some people like this
sort of thing.
F: Really?
T: Yes.
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F: c'est vrai?
T: alikamata na foto: kwa mukubwa/
F: eyo/
T: sasa pale nalikuwa Kamina:
nilianza kuuza: mingi: tusumbulia
mbele inyewe: nitasumbulia ile eh?
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: na eko na nani: na:
T: na munyololo/
F: munyololo/
T: eeh/ njo kusema chaîne/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/
F: munyololo la chaîne: et puis:
ile ile nini:
T: ile muti: na kanyumba yake ku
kichwa/
F: kanyumba yake: kanaikala/ eyo
[chuckles]/ kima/ kumbe ni kusema
balikuwa tu na bintu yabo yote/
T: bilikuwa bintu yote tu/
F: mm/
15.
kiisha: eh: septante six: Kalonji
Albert: [Painting 77: Kalonji,
Emperor of Sout Kasai]
T: bon/
F: sawa nani:
T: empereur/
F: empereur/ minaona anavwala
costume: sawa ya bazungu/
T: costume: ya bazungu vile:
F: mais: tena: aah: eko na shoka/
T: shoka ku mukono: ku libega
yake:
F: ku: ku libega yake:
T: mm/
F: ni kusema ni: inao:
inamuonyesha:
T: bon/
F: ni sultani/
T: sawa hivi: nazania: sasa hapa
Mobutu eko na ile: mukombo yake
eh?
F: mm/
T: ni kweli: yeye nayee: alikuyaka
na ile mukombo yake nayee/ alianza
kutembea na banamuke: unaona ii:
F: They like to walk around with a
monkey?
T: Have a monkey on a leash. Even
I myself have one.
F: Right now?
T: Yes, in Likasi. Didn't Mrs.
Fabian tell you?
F: Is that true?
T: She even took photos at my
elder brother's place.
F: I see. T; Now, when I lived in
Kamina I used to buy many
[monkeys], .... 15
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: This one [in the painting] is
on...
T: ... a chain.
F: A chain.
T: Yes, it is a chaîne.
F: Yes, yes.
T: Right.
F: Munyulolo means chaîne. And
this thing, what is this?
T: It's a pole, and the monkey has
his little house on top.
F: His little house where he
lives. [chuckles] Well, well, a
monkey. So it all goes to say that
people had everything.
T: They had everything.
F: Mm-hmm.
15.
The comes seventy-six, Kalonji
Albert [Painting 77: Kalonji,
Emperor of South Kasai].
T: Fine.
F: He was what?
T: Emperor.
F: Emperor. I see that the emperor
wears a European suit.
T: A European suit.
F: But then he carries a hatchet.
T: A hatchet in his hand, or
rather on his shoulder.
F: On his shoulder.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So this is to show ...
T: Alright.
F:.. that he is the ruler.
T: Well, it's like nowadays with
Mobutu who carries his staff,
right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Kalonj had one, too. And he
used to walk around accompanied by
two women, you see them there?
F: Mm-hmm.
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aba banamuke mbili?
F: mm/
T: kuko foto: inye prise: inye
kukamatiwa: utaweza kuona iko
muzuri zaidi: eko karibu nayo eh?
banamuke bale banamuweka uku: na
uku/
F:mm/
T: bale banamuke banamukamatia ile
mukombo yake/
F: mm/
T: ile jembe yake: anaweka kuliko
hapa/
F: nani? jembe?
T: shoka/
F: shoka/
T: shoka ts: minakota: jembe ni
ile ni ile ya kulima naye/
F: oui oui/
T: bon/ ile: ni maliba/ banai:
banashona: et puis banafanya
kichwa ya simba/
F: maliba?
T: eeh/ raphia/
F: raphia eh?
T: kisha anaweka hapa:
F: mm/
T: na ingine ku mukongo/
F: mm/
T: c'est que njo busultani tuseme
kwetu/ sawa vile nilikuelezea
kama: ile chapeau ya Mobutu: ni:
chui/ ni busultani yetu/
F: eeh/
T: nayee vilevile: ile: ile shoka:
tunaitaka kwetu asema [claps]
tshilonda tsha bumfumu/
F: tshilonda la?
T: tshilonda: tsha bumfumu/
F: eh/
T: njo kusema: nani: shoka: jembe
ts: eh: shoka ya:
F: shoka ya busultani/
T: busultani/
F: mm/
T: ile ni: mu ki: ni mu kiKasai
nakuelezea/
F: c'est ça mm/ na wale wantu
wanamufwata: bale banamuke:
T: banamuke: banamuke:
F: banamuke yabo?
T: apana/
F: paka tu:
T: ilikuwa asema: njo: mufano yake
naliwaza ni ya busultani yake/
F: eeh/
T: c'est que: bintu yake banaanza
kumuchungia kuko banamuke bale
mbili/
T: There is a photo, taken of
[Kalonji] on which you can see
this very well. He is approaching
and those women were placed on his
sides.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those women would carry the
staff for him.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This jembe of his he would put
here [showing].
F: What? Jembe?
T: The hatchet.
F: Hatchet.
T: Hatchet, sorry I made a
mistake, jembe is what you use
work the fields. 16
F: Yes, yes.
T: Alright. [On his chest] this is
a piece of maliba, embroidered
with a lion's head.
F: Maliba?
T: Yes, raffia.
F: So it is raffia?
T: He wears one piece here [on his
chest]...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and another one on his
back.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In our country this signifies
that he is a ruler. It is like I
told you about the leopard-skin
hat that Mobutu wears, our sign
for the office of chief.
F: I see.
T: And this hatchet we call in our
language tshilonda tsha bumfumu.
F: Tshilonda la?
T: Tshilonda tsha bumfumu.
F: I see.
T: That is to say, the hatchet,
the hoe, sorry, the hatchet of...
F: ... the hatchet of the chief's
office.
T: Of the chief's office.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What I told you was in the
Kasai language.
F: Right, mm-hmm. And the people
who follow him, those women...
T: The women...
F: Were they his 17 women?
T: No.
F: Just...
T: It was just a way for me to
represent his status as a rule.
F: I see.
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F: na ule militaire anamufwata?
T: ah ule ni : ni: officier co:
nani: ts: garde corps/
F: garde corps?
T: eeh/
F: [reading inscription] empereur
du Sud Kasai/
T: empereur du Sud Kasai/
F: état autonome: premier royaume:
T: royaume:
F: Luba: dans le vingtième siècle/
T: eh/
F: na inaonyesha fasi gani kule?
hii/
T: inaonyesha mu Mbuji Mayi/
F: mu Mbuji Mayi?
T: mm/ pale banaisha kufika:
angaria sawa banaisha kuyenga
nyumba yote:
F: na:
T: maCocaCola:
F: maCocaCola/
T: maPhilips iliingia:
malibrairies:
F: Ilunga?
T: ah sawa hivi: Zairinisation ile
tunasema:
F: Kayembe:
T: mm/ Zairinisation/
F: aah/
T: oh: ilitoka na kule ku: ku
Baluba/
F: ku bazu: Mbuji Mayi/
T: ni bantu: njo balianza mara ya
kwanza/ sababu bo abakuye na
muzungu: balifika tu: na kuyenga:
na kuleta ile bitu ya mamagazins:
tout ça/
F: hata baGrecs habakuwa?
T: apana/ ata Grec/
F: mm/
T: balikuwa tu bo benyewe/
16.
F: sasa: numéro septante sept: Sud
Kasai/ [Painting 78: The Kanioka
Revolt] bon: sawa vile uli:
ulinielezea: ni kwa Kanioka:
T: eheh/
F: aaah:
T: na ba:
F: walikuwa kubishana na:
baKatanga/ Luba Katanga/
T: non: na: na baLuba Kasai/
T: Those two women were the
keepers of his paraphernalia.
F: And the military person who
follows him.
T: Oh, he is an officer -- what do
you call him? -- a body guard.
F: A body guard?
T: Yes.
F: [reading inscription] "Emperor
of South Kasai."
T: Emperor of South Kasai.
F: [continues reading] "Autonomous
state, first kingdom"...
T: Kingdom.
F: ..."[of the] Luba in the
twentieth century."
T: Yes.
F: And what is the place shown on
this picture?
T: It shows Mbuji-Mayi.
F: This is in Mbuji-Mayi?
T: Mm-hmm. This is were they had
come to. Look at all the houses
they had finished building.
F: And [pointing to signs]...
T: Coca Cola.
F: Coca Cola.
T: Phillips had an outlet there
and there were also bookstores.
F: And the names "Ilunga?"
T: Ah, that stands for
Zairianization, let's say.
F: And "Kayembe?"
T: Mm-hmm. Zairianization.
F: I see.
T: It started there with the
Baluba.
F: In Mbuji-Mayi.
T: It was the people. The people
themselves began [with
Zairianization]. There were no
Whites. People just arrived, built
the town, and brought the wares to
stock their shops with, all that.
F: Not even Greeks were there?
T: No, not a single Greek.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was just the people.
16.
F: Now to number seventy-seven,
South Kasai [Painting 78: The
Kanioka Revolt]. Fine, as you told
me, the scene is in Kanioka
country.
T: Yes.
F: I see.
T: And they...
F: They were fighting with people
from Katanga, the Luba-Katanga.
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F: baLuba Kasai?
T: eeh/
F: na ...?....
T: na ba: na ba gendarmes ya
Kalonji/
F: mm/
T: c'est que: sawa balikosanaka:
bo balisema shee tukamate: ii
Mwene Ditu: na Ngandajika: njo
kipande yabo eh? Mwene Ditu
Ngandajika:
F: mm/
T: na Luputa:
F: mm/
T: iko bulongo ya Kanioka/
F: eyo/
T: bon: bo balisema tukamate hii:
tu: tuweke iko province ya Midi/
bana?ita asema: province: Midi/
F: mm/
T: c'est que ni province moya
itaungana na Shaba/
F: oui mais: maneno mbali kule
minaona drapeau ya Shaba/
T: drapeau: bo balipandisha na
drapeau yabo asema shee tuko paka
bantu ya Shaba/
F: aah/
T: njo tunatafuta kwenda kule/
F: ilikuwa mu place: mbele ya
gare:
T: ilikuwa mbele ya gare:
F: na magazins/
T: mbele ya magazins/
F: [reading] Soriano Rossi/
T: ah Rossi: na:
F: ni magazin ya kweli kule?
T: ah kuko: ma: magazin ya kweli/
F: Savros/
T: Savros/ à Luputa: kuko pa: kama
unafika mbele tu: kama unachuka
gare ya Luputa:
F: eeh/
T: utashimama: utaona: na ile
magazin ...?... c'est que apa
[points]: ii partie peko poste/
F: mm/
T: uku mbele njo kuko gare/ na ii
njia ni kweli inakwenda ku:
Ngandazika [sic]/ ile inakwenda
Mwene Ditu/
F: na tena minaona ma: baKaniok
banavwala sawa ...?...
T: guerriers:
F: ba:
T: c'est que bo balianza kuvwala
hata makati ingine: njo vile nabo
beko/
T: No, with the Luba-Kasai.
F: With the Luba-Kasai?
T: Yes.
F: And...
T: And with Kalonji's gendarmes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What went wrong between them
was this. They said: "We are going
to take Mwene Ditu, Ngandajika."
[Those are places] are on Kanioka
soil, Mwene Ditu, Ngandajika...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And Luputa.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is Kanioka country.
F: I see.
T: Fine, so they said: "We will
take this [country] and make it
the Southern Province." They
called it "Southern Province."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that province would be
annexed to Shaba.
F: Right, because there in the
background I can see the Shaba
flag.
T: They raised this flag, saying:
We are Shaba people.
F: I see.
T: That is were we want to go.
F: [So the picture show]s the
square in front of the railway
station.
T: It was in front of the railway
station...
F: And of some shops...
T: ...and in front of some shops.
F: [reading] Soriano Rossi.
T: Yes, Rossi and...
F: Is that a real shop there?
T: Yes those are real shops.
F: Savros.
T: Savros. In Luputa, when you get
there and get off the train at
Luputa station...
F: I see.
T: ...when stop and look around,
you will see those
shops..?...whereas [pointing]
here, on this side, there is the
post office.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This here is in front of the
station and these roads really run
that way, one to Ngandajika, the
other to Mwene Ditu/
F: I also notice that the Kanioka
are dressed like...
T: ...like warriors.
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F: mm/
T: eeh/ c'est que: bo banavwalaka
vile: maraphia:
F: mm/
T: et puis ma: minyanga 4 kule ku
mikono: kunaisha/ na ni bantu moya
banajua kupitikana na maflêches/
F: mm/
T: mm/
17.
F: [looking for next painting] ts:
déjà: Kalonji Albert tulikuwa
kukuta: septante huit: coup d'état
ya: général Tshi:
T: Tshinyama/
F: Tshinyama:
T: mm/
F: Tshinyama: [Painting 79: The
End of the Luba Empire] tena ni mu
Mbuji Mayi?
T: ni mu Mbuzi Mayi [sic] mule/
F: oui oui/ ni pake ile rue/
[chuckles]
T: bon:
F: Kanyembe Librairie:
T: [chuckles] eeh: bon: paka ile
F: ...?...
T: fasi eh/ njo fasi moya munene
ya Mbuji Mayi/
F: eeh/
T: aah/ ni kweli: minasema
nikumbushe na mi/
F: mm/
T: sawa ile i: innocent: cent:
innocent: Mbuji Mayi/
F: maana: maana yake ya Mbuji
Mayi?
T: Mbuji Mayi eh?
F: ah/
T: iko bouche mayi/ eh? c'est que:
kuko mayi moya kule eh? c'est que
kuko mayi moya kule eh?
F: mm/
T: iko na forme: tangu Mungu
aliumbakayo: kama unashimama
munaangaria: utaona: mikulu:
inafanya ya muntu/ mikono:
inafanya ya muntu/ vilevile na
kichwa/ na ni maji moya eh? kama
bucha: kama una:
F: kiziwa?
T: ni: ah: ni: ts: sorte ya
rivière kwa lakini/
F: rivière/
T: kama unatupa: buchafu mule
F: War...
T: That's the way they used to
dress, also on other occasions.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, they put on raffia skirts.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And minyanga rattles on their
arms, and that was it. They are a
people who really knows how to
fight with arrows.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
17.
F: [looking for next painting].
Wait, we already had Kalonji
Albert, [now] seventy-eight,
General Tshi...
T: Tshinyama.
F: Tshinyama.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [find the picture] Tshinyama
[Painting 79: The End of the Luba
Empire]. Is that still in
Mbuji-Mayi?
T: It's in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Yes. Yes, it's the same street.
[chuckles]
T: Right.
F: Kanyembe bookstore.
T: [chuckles] Yes, it's...
F: ...?...
T: ...the same place. It's an
important place in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: I see.
T: Yes. It's true, I made myself
remember it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Like this [inscription over a
shop] "cent Mbuji-Mayi," [meaning]
Innocent Mbuji-Mayi. 18
F: And what does "Mbuji-Mayi"
mean?
T: Mbuji-Mayi?
F: Yes.
T: It's bouche [mouth] mayi
[water], right? There is a river 19
there, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: God created it with a
[characteristic] shape. When you
stop to look you'll see the legs,
the arms, even the head of a
person. It is a river, right? When
dirt...
F: [Perhaps] a lake?
T: Ah, well, it's a sort of small
river.
F: A small river.
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ndani/ utaona: ile mayi inakamata
buchafu mutupa paka mpembeni/ iko
mweupe na utaona na chini yake/
fasi banatoshaka diamant/
F: mm/
T: tuseme/
F: mbushi:
T: Mbuji Mayi/
F: mbuji ni kusema:
T: mbuji? ni mbuji wetu huyu/
chèvre/
F: eeh/
T: eeh/ ni mbuji/
F: mm/
T: mayi: ni ile mayi/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ mais ilikuwa mu: Français:
bouche: kama ni bouche mayi: c'est
ba: bantu: bazungu baliish:
bazungu baliita embouchire/
F: ahah/
T: à l'embouchire: sasa bantu
banaita asema: mbuji: mayi/
F: mayi/
T: mm/
F: kumbe ule nani:
T: Tshinyama/
F: Tshinyama/
T: mm/
F: sasa uliweka coup d'état: entre
coup d'etat uliweka hii victoire:
T: bon/
F: et na:
T: njo kusema coup d'état: njo
kusema: la fin/
F: oui/
T: semasema la fin: du royaume/
ile i: njo ilikuya royaume/ na yee
Kalonji eh?
F: mm/
T: alikuya: shi ?kushikia
busultani: alikuya na ile: lion/
F: lion/
T: simba/ et puis alikuwa na
léopard/ mu victoire yake: pa
timbres yake: alikamataka kichwa
ya lion: ya léopard: anaweka: vile
minafanya/
F: sasa ile royaume ilikawa: mwezi
ngapi?
T: royaume ya Kalonji?
F: eeh/
T: non: royaume ilianza: soixante:
soixante: soixante et un: soixante
deux: fini/
F: mm/
T: ni vile ilikuya/ non soixante
trois/ kwanza kwake/
F: eh/
T: When you throw dirt in it you
will see that the water picks up
the dirt and leaves it on the
sides. It is clear and you can see
the bottom. It's a place where
they mine diamonds.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Let's say...
F: About mbushi.
T: Mbuji-Mayi.
F: What does mbuji mean?
T: Mbuji? It's that goat of ours,
chèvre [in French].
F: I see.
T: Yes, it's the goat.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And mayi, that's water.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. But if it would be in
French, bouche, then it would by
"mouth water." The whites used to
call it embouchure, river mouth.
F: I see.
T: "At the mouth of the river."
Nowadays the people say
Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Mayi.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So, about this...
T: Tshinyama.
F: Tshinyama.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Now you put [an inscription on
the painting saying] "Coup d'état"
and between coup and d'état you
inserted this victory sign [a
large V]
T: Alright.
F: And with...
T: It is to say that the coup
d'état was the end.
F: Yes.
T: The end of the kingdom, that
kingdom of Kalonji's, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He had this lion [painted
between the legs of the V]. It was
understood that this marked his
rulership.
F: A lion.
T: Simba. 20 Later he had the
leopard, inside his victory-sign.
He had this put onto his postage
stamps. He took a the head of a
lion, or rather leopard and put it
there, just they way I painted it.
F: So, how many months did his
kingdom last?
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T: eeh/ njo iliisha/ T: Kalonji's kingdom?
F: Yes.
T: No [not months], it began in
1961 and was finished in 1962.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it was. No, its end
was in 1963. He was the one who
founded it. 21
F: I see.
T: Yes, then it was over.
18.
F: septante huit: ao kama ni:
septante neuf sasa/ [Painting 80:
Tshombe Prime Minister]
T: mm/
F: démission de Adoula/ voilà/
T: bon/
F: naona ni parlement/
T: sawa vile nalikuelezea kama ile
ni: palais de la nation eh?
F: palais de la nation/
T: nazani kama njo Mont Ngaliema/
ni yuu Mont Ngaliema/
F: hapana: ni mu ville/
T: ni ville eh?
F: ville oui/
T: na inaweza kama sababu: pa ile
kitabu ile banasema kama ni
résidence: ya président/
F: ile?
T: eeh/
F: palais de nation?
T: eeh/ njo banasema ku ile
kitabu: nazani ilikuwa Kasavubu/
F: mm/
T: bon: njo pale ya ile tableau
nalikuambia asema minakatirisha
matableaux mingi eh?
F: mm/
T: sawa vile naliwaza asema non:
ce: pour ça nifanye paka hii
matableaux: sawa vile unasema niko
nakwenda: hakuna mufano: na vile:
na: nalifanya hii tableau:
F: mm/
T: kwa kusema ni ku ile nyumba ku
palais de la nation: njo kulikuwa
mambo ilianza kupita yote/ bali:
kama démission ekoako:
batamutoshea ku palais de la
nation/
F: mm/
T: ni walitosheaka: Ileo:
banatosha Adoula: et puis
banatosha na:
F: oui/
T: njo kisha k?wanaita Tshombe
tuseme/
18.
T: Hm-mm.
F: Seventy-eight, or is it really
seventy-nine already [Painting 80:
Tshombe Prime Minister]
F: [So now we get to] Adoula's
resignation.
T: Right.
F: I see the Parliament.
T: It's , as I told you before,
the Palais de la Nation, right?
F: Palais de la Nation.
T: I think it's on Mount Ngaliema,
on top of Mount Ngaliema.
F: No, it's in town.. I told you
before that in this series I have
been leaving o
T: In town?
F: In town, yes.
T: It's possible, just that in
this book they say it's the
residence of the president.
F: This [building]?
T: Yes.
F: The Palais de la Nation?
T: Yes. That's what they say in
the this book. I think it was
Kasavubu['s residence].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Anyhow, I told you about this
one, with many paintings I took
short cuts, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When I thought about [this
period] I told myself, no, I
cannot paint [all the things that
happened] when you had told me you
were going to leave. There was no
way to do it. So I painted this
picture.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because it was in this
building, in the Palais de la
Nation, that all the events first
happened. When there was a
resignation they would dismiss the
person from the Palais de la
Nation.
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F: mm/
T: aah/ kisha kuit: kuita Tshombe
banachanger na drapeau: ili:
ilikuya six étoiles: banakamata
ile ya:
F: ile étoile:
T: ya étoile moja: banaweka/
F: na ile barre rouge?
T: ah barre rouge oui/
F: maana yake ya barre rouge: wee
unasema nini?
T: ile balisemaka ni: sang ya
bamartyrs ya Indépendant/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ mm/
19.
F: bon: donc: ile wakati: Tshombe
alikuwa na:
T: makati anaisha kuwa sawa mu
busultani:
F: ndiyo/ na: na alikuwa
kusumbulia na waBelges juu ya
macontentieux/ [Painting 81:
Tshombe Returning from the
Brussels Talks] sasa ile mallette
yake/
T: bon/
F: R. D. C.: ji:
T: re: dese/ erdese/
F: oui/
T: bon: ni kusema République
Démocratique du Congo:
F: du Congo/
T: mm/ njo ile balimupatiaka kule
alikuyaka/ nazani wee ulisikia mu
discours moya ya Président Mobutu
alisema: eeeh: yee alisema kwa
lakini eh?
F: mm/
T: alisema kulikuwa menteur moya:
alitulanda: anatoka mu Belgique:
banamwekea mule ndani makaka: yee
njo vile alisema eh? alisema paka
vile sasa hapa tu/ banamwekea
ndani makaka: anakuwa na bo
tunaisha asema: mina: isha mambo
ya: contentieux/ mais ali...?...
F: baliingia mu ndani ya makaka?
T: non/ makaka: c'est à dire caca:
banamwekea buchafu mule ndani:
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They dismissed Ileo, they
dismissed Adoula, and after
that...
F: Yes.
T: ... they called in Tshombe,
let's say.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. And after they had called
in Tshombe they changed the flag.
It used to have six stars, now
they took...
F: This star.
T: ...this one star and put it [in
the flag}.
F: And this red barr?
T: Ah, the red barr, yes.
F: And what do you say is the
meaning of the red barr?
T: They said, it's for the blood
of the martyrs of independence.
F: I see.
T: Yes, mm-hmm.
19.
F: Fine, so this is the time when
Tshombe...
T: ... the time when Tshombe was
in office.
F: Yes. And he was talking with
the Belgians about the claims [the
two countries had against each
other] [Painting 81: Tshombe
Returning from the Brussels
Talks]. Now, what about this
attache case of his?
T: Alright.
F: It says R.D.C.
T: [pronounces] re-de-se,
er-de-se.
F: Yes.
T: That is to say: République
Démocratique du Congo.
F: Du Congo.
T: Mm-hmm. That case was given to
him when he went to Belgium. I
guess you have heard President
Mobutu say recently in a speech...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... that Tshombe was a liar. He
deceived us. When he left Belgium
they had put a monkey in that
attache case. That was his way of
saying that the matter of the
claims was finished for us. ...
F: They put a monkey inside? 22
T: No, caca. That is to say they
put caca inside and he came to
deceive us -- I think caca is mavi
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anakuwa kutulanda shee: asema:
caca nazani ni mavi/
F: mavi?
T: eeh/ yee alisema vile: si ni
politique?
F: eh/
T: ah: alisema vile kwa lakini/
F: baliweka ndani mavi wapi?
T: non: yeye: c'est que umu ndani:
yee aliweka mapapiers/
F: eeh/ mu: mu nani: mu diplomate?
T: mu: muko mapapiers/
F: oui/
T: ya ku: mambo ya contentieux/
F: mais Mobutu alisema kama mavi
...?...: [chuckles]
T: mais sasa Mobutu yee pa kusema:
alisema vile: apa sasa/
F: aah/
T: asema angaria alikuwa kutulanda
asema: juu ya contentieux/ c'était
faux/ njo vile alisemaka/
F: [makes an incredulous sound]
T: aah/ ni mapolitique eeh?
[chuckles] politique ya ?Mobutu:
F: [reading] trois mois: et je
vous donnerai un nouveau Congo/
T: donnez-moi: trois mois/ et je
vous donnerai un nouveau Congo/
F: ni vile alisema?
T: yee alisemaka munipe trois
mois: mitamipatia nouveau Congo/
nabo balimupatiaka troi mois:
marébellions ilitokako: mulikuwa
lufu: tout ça/
F: mm/ uliisha kumuona: nani:
Tshombe?
T: bien/ bien bien bien/
F: oui?
T: eeh/ alinipaka mukono/ mu ku
Zoute: ya Likasi/ tungaliki ?kos 5 [shit].
F: Shit?
T: Yes. That's how Mobutu put it,
it's politics, isn't it?
F: Yes.
T: Yes, he really said that.
F: They put shit inside what?
T: No, no [you don't understand].
Tshombe put papers in this [case].
F: I see, in his attache case?
T: There are the papers....
F: Yes.
T: ... relating to the claims
case.
F: But Mobutu said it was shit?
[chuckles]
T: That's how Mobutu put it when
he made his speech recently.
F: I see.
T: He said: "Look, Tshombe cheated
us about the claims, he lied."
That's how he talked.
F: [makes an incredulous sound]
T: Well, that's politics, isn't
it? [chuckles] Mobutu's politics.
F: [reading] "Three months and
I'll give you a new Congo."
T: [completing the inscription}
"Give me three months, and I'll
give you a new Congo."
F: This is what he said?
T: [translating from French into
Swahili] He said: "Give me [in
French] three months, I'll give
you [in French] a new Congo."
/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ alinipaka mukono/ sababu
kila mara anaanza kuya: nilipashwa
kwenda kulamukia/
F: mm/
T: na ba: na mafanfares ya
Katanga:
F: mm/
T: sinon minajua mingi sana: hymne
nationale yake: naijua yote: bien
pa kichwa hata sasa hata ya
kuimba: minajua/
F: mm/
T: ah na mimbo ingine mingi/
F: [chuckles]
T: alianza kuya kila mara: anafika
kule ku njia ya: route de Likasi:
23 And
they gave him three months:
rebellions broke out and there was
death everywhere.
F: Did you ever see Tshombe?
T: Yes, [I saw him] him quite
close up.
F: Really?
T: Yes, he even shook my hand at
the Zoute [the swimming pool] in
Likasi where we used to live.
F: I see.
T: Yes, he shook my hand. Every
time he came into town I had to go
and greet him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... as a member of the Katanga
Fanfare.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I know a lot [about him], his
[Katangese] national anthem, all
that I know. I have it in my head,
I could sing [the anthem] right
now...
F: Mm-hmm.
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Lubumbashi: anachuka: tunamuona/
F: eyo/
T: mm namuna ongoya tout ça/ ule
muntu sikuonaka: paka nani:
Lumumba/ sikumuona/
T: ... and many other songs.
F: [chuckles]
T: Every time he came through
Likasi on his way to Lubumbashi he
stopped and we saw him.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm. We had to wait for him.
But one person I never saw was
Lumumba. I never saw him.
20.
F: kumbe vile balifanya élection:
[Painting 82: The 1964
Presidential Election]
T: bon: ni pa: ii ni gare ya
Lubumbashi/
F: gare ya Lubumbashi minaona eh/
T: eeh/ ile ni avion: inatupa
mapapiers/ mm?
F: [reading letters on plane] e:
ash: deux ao?
T: ash deux: mais ni kufwata 6 20.
F: So then they organized
elections [Painting 82: The 1964
Presidential Election]
T: Alright, the scene is in front
of the railway station in
Lubumbashi.
F: Yes, I see the station in
Lubumbashi.
T: Yes. And this is an airplane
[circling overhead and] dropping
tu na leaflets.
mi niliandika/
F: [reading letters on plane] "'H
F: mm/
2," right?
T: sauti tu ma: tu ma: tu maavions T: H 2, but that was on the model
tu aérogare: tout ça/
I used, so I wrote it, too.
F: mm/
F: Mm-hmm.
T: juu ya ile: ilitupa mapapiers: T: Its what the planes use to
na pa papiers pale baliandika: announce themselves at airfields.
F: Conaco:
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Conaco: bantu unaona beko T: [The plane] dropped leaflets,
banafuya bale: bengine
papers on which they wrote...
banapokelea: maélections
F: Conaco.
présidence: présidentielles/ T: Conaco. People are milling
F: na mu papiers iliandikwa tu ma: around, some are catching this
ma nini?
campaign material for the
T: ilikuwa: non papier iliandikwa presidential election.
mingi: ni kusema votez: Conaco: ni F: And what was written on these
parti yenu politique/ mutaikala leaflets?
bien: votez Conaco: iliimbiwa na T: Lots of things -- "Vote Conaco,
mwimbo ya mingi: Franco: ule ya it is your Party. You will have a
Luambo Makadi/
good life if you vote for Conaco."
F: mm/
And lots of songs were performed,
T: aliimba madisques nayee: for instance by Franco, who now
muvotez Conaco: ni kweli
calls himself Luambo Makadi.
aliemporter victoire/
F: Mm-hmm.
F: aah/
T: On his records he sang: "Vote
T: eeh/
Conaco!" And it's true, Tshombe
was victorious. F: I see.
T: Yes.
21.
F: njo quatre vingt et un:
T: quatre vingt et un/
F: quatre vingt deux: itakuwa:
rébellion ya Mulelistes/
T: ya Mulélistes eh/
F: [rummaging] Mulelistes/ contre
la ANC/ au Kwilu/ [Painting 83:
The Mulelist Uprising]
21.
F: This is eighty-one.
T: Eighty-one.
F: Eighty-two, it's going to be
about the Mulelist rebellion.
T: Yes, the Mulelist [rebellion].
F: [rummaging] The Mulelists
against the ANC, in the Kwilu
[Painting 83: The Mulelist
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T: bon/ au Kwilu/ kama utakuwa na
kya kuniuliza: nitajibu/
F: juu minaona hata ba: sawa
baguerriers: beko baMulelistes/
T: baMulelistes oui/
F: habakuwe na ma: ba: bunduki:
ao:
T: m: m: apana balikuwa na
mflêches/
F: mm/
T: eheh/ njo balianza tu kuua
batu/ c'est que balikuwa ma: c'est
que baMulelistes kwa kufwata bien:
d'après l'histoire: mulikuwa na
baJaponais/
F: mm?
T: mulikuwa baChinois: mule ndani/
c'est que njo ilikuwa: armée ya
Mulele/ iliravager ile kipande
yooote ile/ balikamata mikini
mingi: inaenea na kukamata na
Kinshasa tu/
F: eyo/
T: eeh/ par la bonne chance: sijue
vile ilipitaka: na vile ANC
alibafukuza na kubabamba/ na
Mulele au lieu kama alikimbiaka
mu: kama ni mu Afrique kama ni mu
Europe: sais pas histoire:
alibambiwa mu Brazza: ni mambo ya
bakubwa/
F: mm/ mambo ya bakubwa?
T: ya bakubwa [chuckles]/
F: mambo ya bakubwa/
T: eeh/ tunafika fasi ingine:
tunasema mambo ya bakubwa/
F: ...?...
T: ah i: maaffaires ya
baautorités: haituangarie/
F: aah/
T: mm/
22.
F: quatre vingt trois: rébellion
au Congo: [T95]
T: bon/ ni mbele ya monument: ku
Kisangani/
F: mm/
T: ku Stanleyville/
F: Boyoma?
T: Kisangani Boyoma/
F: Boyoma/ Boyoma?
T: sawa hivi: nitasema na mufano
Mbuji Mayi/
F: mm/
T: c'est que Boyoma: ni kutaya kwa
mukini/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
Uprising].
T: Fine. In the Kwilu region. If
you have questions, I'll answer.
F: I see there are warriors, are
they the followers of Mulele?
T: Yes, they are the Mulelists.
F: Didn't they have guns, or...?
T: No, they just had arrows.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, and they began to kill
people. But the Mulelists, to be
historically accurate, were allied
with the Japanese.
F: Mm-hmm?
T: [Or rather,] there were Chinese
among them. That was Mulele's army
and it devastated that whole area.
They took many towns, in fact,
they almost took Kinshasa.
F: I see.
T: Yes. But by some chance -- I
don't know how it happened -- the
Congolese National Army chased
them away and captured many. And
Mulele, instead of fleeing to some
place in Africa or Europe, went to
Brazzaville where he was captured.
But I don't really know that story
well, it is something that regards
the big shots.
F: The big shots, eh?
T: The big shots [chuckles]
F: Affairs of the big shots.
T: Well, when we get to certain
points we just say: Those are the
affairs of the big shots.
F: ...?...
T: Affairs of the people in power,
they don't regard us.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
22.
F: Eighty-three, rebellion in the
Congo [Painting 84: The Rebellion
in Stanleyville.
T: Right. The scene is in front of
a monument in Kisangani.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Stanleyville.
F: And what is Boyoma [inscribed
on the picture]?
T: Kisangani Boyoma.
F: Boyoma. Boyoma?
T: It's as I say Mbuji-Mayi, for
instance.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Boyoma is a name they use in
that town
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F: na bo balikuwa tena na ma:
étoiles?
T: bo banakuwa na drapeau ya
étoile/ vile banaanza kufia bo:
banaanzaka kufia paka ile mambo
moya unité/ c'est que sasa:
bapoliticiens bote balikuwa mu
Zaire: mbele ya kufanya politique:
banafika paka asema ooh: mambo ya
Lumumba njo ilikuwa bien/ puisque
alikuwa: bien aimé/
F: mm/
T: alipendewa ku bantu bote/
F: mm/
T: ni vile banaanza kufunga batu:
kunywisha essence: unakunywa
essence: et puis asema fungula
kinywa: kamata alumette kuwakisha:
allez: unapasuka/ [voice trailing
off] ...?...
F: sawa vile walifanya kule?
T: mm/
F: bazungu ao ba: nani?
T: na bazungu: na batu: surtout
batu njo waliwawa mingi/
F: mm/ banani? baMulele?
T: baMulele/ non: balikuwa ba:
aikukuwa Mulelistes apana/
balikuwa baNguebe: Soumialot: na
eh: na ungine minasahabu jina
yake/ mm/ njo banaanza ku: kuua
batu/ sababu Nguebe kama njo
alikuwa général mi shijue muzuri/
F: mm/ Nguebe/
T: Nguebe/
23.
F: kumbe vile tunafika: mu: vingt
quatre novembre/ [Painting 85:
November 24: Mobutu and Party
Symbols].
T: bon/
F: quatre vingt quatre: quatre
vingt quatre: tunaona Mobutu:
T: bon/ njo ile siku: ii tableau
nilifanyaka na: ts: na couleur
moya mubayambaya eh? kama una:
kama unapanguza na mafuta: ça va/
F: ndiyo/
T: bon/ ilikuya: njo siku le vingt
quatre novembre ilikuwa sawa
naissance: ya: Sese Seko eh?
F: mm/
T: ya muntu moja Mungu alitutumia
she bote tu/ ni vile bantu: shee
tunaanza kuespérer asema: ii mwaka
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And there they still had the
six-star flag?
T: They did and they died for the
sake of unity. Because at that
time, before each of them went
after his own political interests,
the politicians of Zaire would all
agree that Lumumba's program was a
good one. He was well liked.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: All the people loved him.
F: Mm-hmm.
F: So they began to tie up people
and make them drink gasoline. You
would drink gasoline and then be
told to open your mouth. Someone
would take a match, light it and
-- just like that -- you would be
blown to pieces. [voice trailing
off}...?... What they did there,
was it aimed at the Whites, or who
were the people thy killed?
F: Is that what they did there?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: To the whites, of to whom?
T: To the whites and to the
people. Above all, they killed
many Africans.
F: Mm-hmm. Who, the Mulelists?
T:: No, not the Mulelists. Those
were the followers of Nguebe,
Soumialot, and others whose names
I forgot; they killed the people.
Because Nguebe was some kind of
general, but I am not quite sure.
F: Mm-hmm, Nguebe.
T: Nguebe.
23.
F: So, now we come to "November
24" [Painting 85: November 24:
Mobutu and Party Symbols].
T: Right.
F: Eighty-four, eighty-four. We
see Mobutu.
T: Right, That's the day --
[interrupts himself] I painted
this picture with very bad colors;
if you wipe it off with oil, it
will be alright.
F: Yes.
T: Fine, the day of November 24
marked, as it were, the birth of
[Mobutu] Sese Seko...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... a person God sent to all of
us. That is what we, the people,
began to hope for. [As things
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peut-être na mi batakuwa kuniua/
sijue/ bababa bote bana...?...
kusema tu: hii mwaka shijue kama
nitakomesha batoto yangu/ ni kweli
tuliona paka: mu le vingt quatre
novembre: [claps] Mobutu anakamata
pouvoir/
F: mm/
T: tulikuwa na madoutes/ kila
muntu yote/ alisema ooh: mais
c'est un muKongo: que voulez-vous/
[claps] itakuwa tu: fujo/ bengine
asema ooh: peut-être/ mais:
atukujue/
F: mm/
T: kweli shiku kidogo: tuliona
kama: ni kweli aliweza mambo: sawa
vile: tuko naye leo ...?...
F: mm/
T: tuko mu paix: tranquilité:
tunaikala bien: sawa vile unakuwa
kwako unakuwa kutembelea: niko
natembea na nguvu mu njia umu:
?nafukuziwa huku/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ siwaze asema ule atanipika
mushale/ shiwaze asema ule
atanifukuza: ah ah/ sasa unaanza
kutembea tu nguvu: asema niko mu
inchi kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: [reading from painting] vive
trois zed?
T: vive trois zed: c'est à dire:
vive trois Zaire/ Zaire monnaie:
Zaire fleuve: Zaire pays/
F: oui/ mm/ ile tuliuza mbele/
T: ah ile: njo shiku tu ya
kupatana na mweye/
F: c'est ça/
T: eeh/
F: vingt quatre novembre: ilikuwa
tu:
T: vingt quatre novembre: ilikuwa
mu septante quatre eh? tuko na:
F: novembre septante trois/
T: ah aha/ alikuwa septante trois:
F: ya mu mwisho ...?...
T: tuko napréparer: bonne année:
F: bonne année: septante quatre/
T: njo minatosha ile eeh/
F: ahah/
T: mm/
F: nazani ilikuwa mu: mu mwisho ya
septembre:
T: decembre: ilikuwa decembre/
F: decembre septante trois/
were, it was a time when we said:]
"Perhaps this is the year when
they come to kill me. I don't
know." All the parent were saying:
"I don't know about this year,
will I be able to raise my
children? Truly, the only thing we
saw was that, on November 24,
Mobutu took over.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We had our doubts, every one of
us. "Oh well," it was said, "he is
someone from the lower Congo, what
do you expect? [claps] There will
be trouble." Others said: "Oh,
perhaps..." But we did not know.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The truth is, we soon saw that
he knew how to take control of
things, as he does up to this day.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We have peace and tranquility,
we live well in our homes and when
we travel -- I walk around with
strength [no longer fearing] I
will be chased away from this
place.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. I don't worry that someone
will shoot me with an arrow or
another is going to chase me. Now
you begin to walk with strength,
telling yoursel
F: "I live in my own country."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: [reading from painting] "Long
live the three Z?"
T: "Long live the three Z?" That
stands for Zaire, the currency,
Zaire, the river, Zaire, the
country.
F: Yes, mm-hmm. This is the first
painting we bought.
T: Ah, this one, that was day I
met you.
F: That's it.
T: Yes.
F: November 24 -- it was...
T: November 24, it was in '74,
right? We had...
F: I was in November of '73.
T: Ah, yes, is was in '73.
F: Toward the end of...
T: I was preparing for New Year's
--
F: New Year's of '74.
T: That is when I came up [with
this painting].
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T: mm/ njo ile nalifanyaka juu ya
bonne année/
F: mm/ sasa wee uliandika ma:
maabréviations: majina:
T: naliandika kule uliniulizaka
makati ...?...
F: dix sept janvier?
T: njo siku ya Lumbumba alikufaka
ile tableau nalikuonyesha/
F: c'est ça/ na mi: noterie:
T: Maluko ou bien:
F: minoterie Matadi/
T: Matadi: ni bintu ile
anaréaliser tuseme: maminoteries
ya Matadi: maNsele: dix huit mai:
shiku mama: mama Yemo alikufa:
mwenye kumuzala: authenticité:
Inga: FAZ: Maluku:
F: attends: attends/ généra:
Gécamines:
T: oui/
F: eko/ Sonas: eko/
T: mm/
F: Qeloua/ Qeloua?
T: wapi?
F: Qe:
T: Qe: quartier de l'OUA/
F: de l'OUA?
T: mm/
F: ni wapi?
T: quartier ya l'OUA? c'est que
cité ya l'OUA/
F: aah:
T: aah/
F: ku Kinshasa kule?
T: bon: Kinshasa/
F: mm/ dix sept novembre: mm/
T: mm/
F: dix sept novembre ni date gani?
dix sept novembre/
T: ile ya Lumbumba: eeh: pardon:
dix sept novembre: siku ya fête
ya: ya bamilitaires/
F: aah/
T: nazani bataifanya sasa/
F: sasa/ mm/ na ma nani: quatre
janvier?
T: martyrs de l'Indépendance:
F: dix huit mai?
T: mort ya mama Yemo:
F: eeh/ Inga: Malu:
T: Maluku:
F: Maluku?
T: mm/
F: Maluku njo nini?
T: uliniulizaka tena nashinda
kujibu/ or que minafwataka ku
radio makati ingine mais nasahabu/
F: aah/
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: I think it was at the end of
September.
T: December, it was December.
F: December '73.
T: Mm-hmm. That is when I painted
it, for New Year's.
F: Mm-hmm. Now, you inscribed with
abbreviations and names.
T: What I wrote there -- you asked
me about it the other time.
F: [What does] "January 17" [refer
to]?
T: That's the day Lumumba died
[in] the painting I showed you.
F: Right. Then there are the
flower mills...
T: At Maluko...
F: The mill at Matadi.
T: Matadi. Let's say those are
things Mobutu realized -- the
mills at Matadi and Nsele. "May
18" is the day mama Yemo, his
mother, died. Then there is
"authenticity," "Inga," "FAZ,"
"Maluku"...
F: Wait, wait. There is
"Gécamines" [mining company]
T: Yes.
F: Then there is "Sonas"
[insurance company]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "Queloua," what is "Queloua?"
T: Where?
F: "Qe..."
T: Que...: "district of the OUA
[Organization of African Unity].
F: Of the OUA?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Where is that?
T: The district of the OUA? It's
the part of town reserved for the
OUA.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Is that in Kinshasa?
T: Right, in Kinshasa.
F: Mm-hmm. "November 17." Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What kind of date is November
17? November 17.
T: It's Lumumba's, sorry, it the
day of the feast of the military.
F: I see.
T: I think, they'll still
celebrate it now.
F: Now, mm-hmm. And "January 4?"
T: The martyrs of independence.
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T: ku: iko kintu moya: iko
cimenterie?
F: aah/
T: ya Maluku eh?
F: authenticité:
T: mm/
F: FAZ: Sodimiza: KDL: Kamoto:
vingt mai/
T: vingt mai: naissance ya MPR/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: la Zairoise: uliweka yote/
T: ni yote tu/
24.
F: mm/ bon/ kumbe tuendelee:
kufika sasa: mu eh: quarante:
quatre vingt cinq/ [Painting 86:
Mobutu Rolling Up His Sleeves]
T: quatre vingt cinq/
F: si njo retroussons le manches?
T: retroussons: les manches/
F: balikuwa ku: balikuwa ku:
kuimba vile/
T: aah: bon/
F: mais hapa: uliweka salongo:
T: salongo alinga mosala/
F: ni kusema:
T: c'est que ni ile siku:
alisemaka: [interrupts himself]
njo: salongo ya kwanza/
F: aah/
T: c'est que shiku alikamata
busultani alisemaka salongo/
F: mm/
T: hata hii safari alifanya mu
Chine: c'est que pale alikuya:
aina hakukwenda kucopier ma:
modèle ya baChinois: non/
F: non/
T: c'est que: alikuwa naye tangu
zamani: aliyua tu: alisemaka shiku
alikunja mukono: asema tutumikie
ni kazi/ njo kusema salongo:
F: "May 18?"
T: The death of mama Yemo.
F: I see, "Inga," "Malu...?"
T: Maluku.
F: Maluku?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What is Maluku?
T: You already asked me and I
could not come up with an answer.
It's something I once heard on the
radio, but I forgot.
F: I see.
T: It's something -- isn't it the
cement factory...
F: I see.
T: ... at Maluku, right.
F: "Authenticity."
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "FAZ," "Sodimiza" [real estate
company], "KDL" [railway company],
"Kamoto" [mine], "May 20."
T: May 20, the birth of the MPR
[Mobutu's party, the Popular
Movement of the Revolution].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "La Zairoise" [the national
anthem], you put down everything.
T: It's everything.
24.
F: Mm-hmm. Fine, let's go on. Now
we get to forty, sorry,
eighty-five [Painting 86: Mobutu
Rolling Up His Sleeves].
T: Eighty-five.
F: Isn't this about 'let's roll up
our sleeves?"
T: Let's roll up our sleeves.
F: They used to sing this.
T: Yes. Fine.
F: But here [on the picture] you
wrote "salongo."
T: [completing the inscription]
"Salongo alinga mosala."
F: Which means...
T: Because on that day Mobutu
said... [interrupts himself] This
was the first salongo [national
clean-up day].
F: I see.
T: On the day he took the power he
proclaimed salongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But it was not something that
he copied after his trip to China.
He did not copy the Chinese model,
no.
F: No.
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alinga mosala/ ni kusema: salongo:
ni nkambo yetu moya wa zamani/
kipande ya ba: ya baNgala/
F: mm/
T: ile ba: ni Lingala ile/
F: mm/
T: kulikuwa: salongo alinga
mosala/ ilikuwa bakubwa nazani
banaanza kusema/ kama atakuambia
mutoto yake: anamupa example: ya
salongo/ c'est que salongo mutu
umu alipendaka kazi sana/
F: mm/
T: ile kazi: iliproduire:
alikuvivre bien: sawa vile niko na
?nguvu ya kuletea matableaux: mi
sichoke: na mi niko salongo/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: alinga ni: ni:ni:
T: anapenda/
F: aah/
T: alingi: alingi mosala/
F: mm/
T: alingi: mosala/
F: mosala?
T: kazi/
F: kazi/
T: mm/
F: mosala ni kazi/
T: mm/
F: minaona naye bazungu:
T: apana/ hakuna bazungu/
F: hapana?
T: mm/
F: beko bantu/
T: ni bantu/
F: ni bantu/
T: ni baministres: makati balikuwa
baministres:
F: na banacheka/
T: badeputés/ balicheka pale
baliona: yee anakunja mukono:
baliona sawa mambo moya ma: ya
mastajabu/ asema minaikunjia nini?
na bo asema kumbe tupime: abakujue
kama ni kazi ya bumwanaume
anatafuta kukamata/
F: mm/
T: kumbe njo mambo inye
alibaelezea ni kazi kweli
alikamata/
F: hapa minaona anavwala béret/
rouge/
T: béret rouge? oui/ ni para/
F: na hii: ça??
T: ile vilevile ni mainsignes/
F: insignes ya para/
T: eeh/ sawa iko hapa: njo ya
T: He had the idea long before. On
the day when he rolled up his
sleeves [lit. bared his arm] he
said: "There is work, let's do
it." That is the meaning of
salongo alinga mosala. Salongo
goes back to one of our ancestors,
in the Bangala region.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's in Lingala.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The saying] was "salongo
alinga mosala." I think it was our
ancestors who first said it. Some
one would teach an example of work
to his child and say "salongo
alinga mosala," which means that
the people here in the Congo loved
to work.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that work was productive,
it made you live well. Just as I
am working hard to come up with
paintings, without getting tired.
That is my salongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Alinga means?
T: "He loves."
F: I see.
T: Alingi mosala.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alingi mosala.
F: Mosala?
T: Work.
F: Work.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mosala means work.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [going back to the picture] I
also see whites.
T: No, there are no whites.
F: No?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: They are people.
T: People.
F: People.
T: The are the ministers at that
time...
F: And they are laughing.
T: ... and members of parliament.
They laughed when they saw that he
actually rolled up his sleeves. It
took them by surprise. They told
themselves: "What am I going to
roll up my sleeves for?" Then they
said, "lets try it." But they did
not understand that he wanted them
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parachutistes/
F: aah/
T: sawa muntu wa mapete 7 mingi/
ingine: tunashinda na kushinda/
F: mm/
25.
bon: na: tena vile alidéclarer:
Lumumba héros national/ [Painting
87: The MPR Makes Lumumba a
National Hero] naona unamuonyesha:
Mulumba [sic] paka tu: karibu ya
ile nyumba/
T: nyumba: ni Lumumba héros
national sawa nalikuelezea/ kama
uko na kintu ya kuuliza:
F: ici: ku: kama ni ku dirisha:
ka: karibu na dirisha minaona:
T: karibu na dirisha aah:
F: muntu/ nsula ya muntu/
T: ya Lumbumba/
F: njo Lumumba?
T: c'est que kama unakwenda ku ile
nyumba eh?
F: aah/
T: oui ni kaloko nalifanya na mi
kwa lakini kwa kuonyesha/
F: eh/
T: kama unafika ku ile nyumba
utakuta banaweka: nsula ya
Lumumba/ sasa hata kama unakwenda
kesho:
F: eyo/
T: utakuta/ banafanya nsula ya
Lumumba: banaandika uku chini
asema: banaandika: chini
banaandika: le pays: exige: les
martyrs/ je me présente le
premier/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: je me présente le premier: njo:
T: njo vile banaandika kule chini:
F: maneno ya:
to take up a man's work.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So, that is what he told them.
He really took up the work.
F: I see that Mobutu wears a red
beret.
T: A red beret? Yes, he was a
paratrooper.
F: [pointing] And this here?
T: That, too, belongs to their
insignia.
F: The insignia of the
paratroopers.
T: Yes. This here, it's the sign
of the parachutists.
F: I see.
T: He was a much decorated man.
[The decorations show] We are the
victors/
F: Mm-hmm.
25.
Fine, and then he declared
Lumbumba a national hero [Painting
87: The MPR Makes Lumumba a
National Hero]. I see that you
show Lumumba near that [famous]
house.
T: The house. [The picture] is
about Lumumba, national hero, as I
explained to you. If you have a
question...
F: Here, this is a window and near
the window I see...
T: Yes, near the window...
F: A person, a portrait.
T: Lumumba's.
F: That is Lumumba?
T: Well, when you go to that
house, right?
F: Yes.
T: Well, it is a little trick I
used to make [something] visible.
F: Yes.
T: When you get this house -- you
can do this tomorrow -- you will
find a portrait of Lumumba inside.
F: I see.
T: You'll find an inscription
under Lumumba's portrait. They
wrote underneath: "A country needs
its martyrs, I offer myself as the
first one."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: I offer myself as the first
one...
T: That's what they wrote there on
the bottom...
F: In order too...
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T: ya foto yake/
F: aah/
T: ile alisemaka yee/
F: héros national/
T: sawa ile maavions: ni karibu:
F: mm/
T: ni karibu na kiwanza: avion iko
inachuka/
F: mm: ni kuonyesha ...?... karibu
na kiwanza/
26.
[rummaging, aside] ...?... fasi
ingine: ndiyo/ eeh: kiisha:
mercenaires à Bukavu: quatre vingt
sept: quatre vingt sept: [Painting
88: The Mercenaries Landing at
Bukavu] na bale para banashuka:
T: baparas banashuka bushiku:
banashuka mugini ya Bukavu: na
vile ...?...
F: uliisha kuona kama sawa vile
ba: ba: baparas banatoka mule/
T: aah niliisha kuona/
F: ndiyo?
T: na sawa vile nilikuwa pa
Kamina: balianza kufanya
maexercises ile kila mara/
F: eeh/
T: beko nakuya banabatupa: naliona
bengine baspécialistes banasema
baspécialistes: quatre/
banabatupa: banawakisha moto
chini/
F: mm/
T: bo banaweka shmoko iko inatoka
kidogo lwa tunkuni/ banabatupa
yulu: kuliko bale bengine/
F: mm/
T: bale banachuka: banakuwa bote
quatre: fasi moja: banachukiaka/
naliona [claps]/ mm/
F: [reading on one of the houses]
avenue Kongolo/
T: avenue Kongolo/
F: mu Bukavu?
T: mu Bukavu mm/
F: nabo banau: banaua tu:
bamercenaires:
T: banaua batu: banapita:
F: beko na mansula ya: na ya
baBelges ao?...?...
T: non/ mais bamercenaires ni
kabila yote bataweza kuuza/ même:
même Zairois/ ataweza kuwa paka
mercenaire: mu Zaire/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ ni vile eh? mm/ muntu
T: ... of his image.
F: Yes.
T: Lumumba himself said this.
F: The National Hero.
T: And those planes are to show,
nearby there is....
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... there is the airport. One
plane is about to land.
F: Mm-hmm. It is to show that [the
house] is near the airport.
26.
[rummaging, aside]....getting to
another place. Yes, here it is
finally, mercenaries at Bukavu,
eighty-seven [Painting 88: The
Mercenaries Landing at Bukavu]. So
the paratroopers are landing.
T: The paras landed at night in
Bukavu...
F: Have you ever seen this,
paratroopers jumping from a plane?
T: Oh, I've seen it.
F: Really?
T: Because I used to live in
Kamina where they had their
exercises all the time.
F: I see.
T: They would be dropped. And I
saw others that were called
specialists. They would be dropped
in teams of four to light a fire
on the ground.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They would set a fire with
branches and smoke would rise.
Then [more] would be dropped and
come down to join the others.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those who jumped were four and
they landed in one place. I saw
it, mm-hmm.
F: [reading on one of the houses]
Avenue Kongolo.
T: Avenue Kongolo.
F: In Bukavu?
T: In Bukavu, mm-hmm.
F: And the mercenaries are
killing...
T: They kill people who pass by.
F: They have faces like Belgians,
or?
T: No, the mercenaries would come
from wherever they could buy them,
even a Zairian could be a
mercenary in Zaire.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes, that's how it is, right? A
Congolese from
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Congolais ya Brazza:
F: mm/
T: ataweza kuwa mercenaire mu
Zaire/ hata mi hapa: bon: kama:
kama muntu ananiuza:
F: mm/
T: bon: nitaweza kwenda kukombana:
niko mercenaire/
F: mm/
T: ah: mercenaire ya kusema ni
Belge ou bien: nani: kabila yote/
F: eyo/
T: eeh/
F: banavwala mauniformes yabo/
T: mm/
F: ...?... ts tst [sigh, trail
off] mambo ya: ile ilikuwa mu
mwaka gani?
T: eh: i: ya bamercenaires? non/
F: ya Bukavu/
T: mercenaires ya Bukavu ilikuwa
soixante: soixante s: puisque:
Zaire: monnaie ya Zaire ilitoka mu
soixante sept eh? c'est que
ilikuwa mu soixante sept vilevile/
F: mu soixante sept/
T: mu soixante sept/
27.
F: quatre vingt huit: tunaona:
muzungu ingine: Jean/ [Painting
89: Jean Schramme Flees]
T: Jean/ mais: sababu shkram kama
ni: ni jina ile: me shiyue kuita
muzuri kwa lakini/
F: Schramme/
T: skram eh?
F: eeh/
T: ah voilà:
F: njo jina yake/
T: njo yee: sasa ni Jean:
F: Jean:
T: alikimbia mu Rwanda sasa wakati
njo ...?....
F: balikimbia mu nani: mu char ao?
T: ni mu char eeh/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ ilikuwa ya ba: ANC: sawa
bali...?... vingine/
F: bilikuwa kati ya bilima ao?
T: ilikuwa kati ya bilima/ ni
njia/
F: mm/
T: ni njia inatoka: ah: iko napita
mule/
F: mm/ Schramme/
T: anakimbilia kule sasa: anaacha:
mu Zaire: ile drapeau ni ya mu
Congo-Brazzaville...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... could also be a mercenary
in Zaire. Even I, if someone buys
me ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I can go and fight as a
mercenary.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You cannot say that the typical
mercenary was Belgian, they came
from all nationalities.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: They wear their uniforms.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [Sigh, trailing off] Oh, well,
all these things -- what year was
this?
T: You don't mean the mercenaries
[in general].
F: [The attack on] Bukavu.
T: The mercenaries in Bukavu, that
was in '60. '60 -- the year when
the Zaire currency was introduced
was '67. So then it was in 1967.
F: In '67.
T: In '67.
27.
F: Eighty-eight, we see another
white man, Jean [Painting 89: Jean
Schramme Flees]
T: Jean Skram or something like
that. I don't know how to
pronounce his name.
F: Schramme.
T: Skram, right?
F: Yes.
T: So, there you are.
F: That's his name.
T: For the moment, he'll be Jean.
F: Jean.
T: He fled to Rwanda at the
time...
F: What is this vehicle they were
fleeing in, a tank?
T: Yes, a tank.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, from the Congolese
National Army.
F: Was this in the mountains?
T: It was a road through the
mountains.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's a road that comes out
there and goes on.
F: Mm-hmm. Schramme.
T: He ran away and escaped from
Zaire. That flag over there is in
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Zaire: pale ni pa frontière:
F: mm/
T: Rwanda: Congo/
F: angaliki?
T: ni Américain?
F: ah non/
T: non: yee Jean?
F: Jean/
T: iko na Bob Denard eko/
F: wapi? ku Belgique?
T: Bob Denard nali: naliona
journal moya: ili...?... mu
Belgique/ anashimama: ku nyumba
hivi mulango/ anashimama/
F: eyo/
T: ah eko tu en vie/ mm/
F: na Schramme vilevile?
T: vilevile iko/
F: [incredulous sound]
T: kulikuwa masoupçons ingine
balisema: eko mu Angola: alikuwa
kukombana tena mvita/
28.
F: ... arrestation: à Alger:
[Painting 90: Tshombe is Arrested
in Algiers] asema ilikuwa tu avion
moya:
T: ilikuwa tu avion: mule ndani
njo mule eko: sawa vile mi
nalikuambia kama nalikatirisha 8 /
kama ulikuwa mufano ya kuletea:
kama ni?...kuleta: namna ile
balimubamba:
F: mm/
T: namna ile balimusambishaka
mbele ya tribunal:
F: mm/
T: sawa vile balimusambishaka/
ali: bali: tenue ya baprisonniers
kule ilikuwa costume bleu:
F: mm/
T: na njo vile ilikuya/ na kisha
tu
F: ...?...
T: balitumaka: Nendaka: [interrupt
to respond] non: mafotos/
F: mm/
T: balitumaka Nendaka: kwenda
kusamba amu: amulete huku:
F: mm/
T: mais: balikatalaka/ kama ni
gouvernement baAlgeriens/ siku
kidogo tulisikia asema kama:
Tshombe anakufa/
F: mambo ya bakubwa/
T: ya bakubwa/ [chuckles]
F: [chuckles]
T: ile ni mambo ya bakubwa sasa/
Zaire, it marks the border...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... between Rwanda and the
Congo.
F: Is Schramme still alive?
T: Wasn't he an American? 24
F: Oh no.
T: Jean wasn't?
F: Jean.
T: At any rate, he is alive, as is
Bob Denard.
F: Where, in Belgium?
T: I saw Bob Denard in a newspaper
printed in Belgium. He was
standing in the door of a house.
F: I see.
T: He is alive alright.
F: And Schramme, too?
T: He, too.
F: [incredulous sound]
T: It was rumored by some that he
is still fighting in Angola.
28.
F: Arrest in Algiers [Painting 90:
Tshombe is Arrested in Algiers].
There was this plane...
T: There was his plane and Tshombe
was inside. But that is one of
those short cuts I told you about.
If there would be time I could
show how they arrested him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and put him on trial.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: How they put him on trial and
how he was made to wear blue
prisoner's clothes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So that is what happened.
Then...
F: ...?...
T: ... they sent Nendaka -- no,
there are photographs. 25
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They send Nendaka, to negotiate
Tshombe's extradition.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But that was refused by the
Algerian government. Not much
later we heard that Tshombe had
died.
F: A matter that only regards the
big shots.
T: The big shots [chuckles].
F: [chuckles]
T: Nowadays it's the affair of the
big shots.
F: [laughs].
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F: [laughs]
T: ah lala/ kama alikuwa: namna:
kama ilikufa namna gani: atujue
kwa lakini/
F: hatujue ...?.../
T: kama eko: hatujue/
29.
F: njo pape Paul: [Painting 91:
Pope Paul VI Approves Mobutu's
Policies]
T: Paul six/ sawa vile ali: ali:
sawa vile alikuwaka mambo ya
bubishi ya:
F: oui oui/ ndiyo/
T: ya Malula eh?
F: c'est vrai/
T: akukuwa mufano: Malula
alisemaka: aiwezi: minasagaa: ile
authenticité/
F: [reading from painting]
Tshibangu Tshisuku?
T: Tshishiku/
F: Tshishiku/
T: eeh/
F: Malula/
T: Malula:
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: kumbe yee: ni kusema: ali:
aliitika tu/
T: bon: yee aliitika/ pape alikuwa
kuitika: nazani shiku papa
alitika: balifanyaka marche au
flambeau/ mm: eh: non: marche de
soutien/
F: marche de soutien/
T: ah mu Zaire muzhima/ ile wakati
pape alitikaka mi niko mu Kamina/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ c'est que: bantu bote
banaanzia kupita mu mbalambala: na
kuimba na kuimba: pape anaitikia:
pape anaitikia: asema jina ya
baZairois: ata banachanger: aina
maneno/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ [aside, looking at
something on painting] iko: non:
aidéranger: inaisha kukauka/ ni
couleur moya alikuwa na mafuta/
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: rouge/
T: ah lala/ non: violet:
F: ...?... violet:
T: ah/
F: juu ya kumuonyesha/ papa/
T: ah voilà/
T: Well, well. But we don't know
how he died.
F: We don't know...
T: Or whether he is alive, we
don't know.
29.
F: So this is pope Paul [Painting
91: Pope Paul VI Approves Mobutu's
Policies].
T: Paul VI. There was this
conflict with...
F: Yes, I know.
T: ... Malula, right?
F: That's true.
T: It was amazing. Malula kept
saying: "This is impossible, I
cannot believe this business about
'authenticity.'"
F: [reading from painting]
"Tshibangu Tshisuku?"
T: "Tshishiku."
F: Tshishiku.
T: Yes.
F: "Malula."
T: Malula.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: So, so this is to say that [the
pope] approved.
T: He went along with it. The pope
approved. I believe it was on the
day when the pope gave his
approval that they organized the
Torch Parade, or marche de
soutien.
F: Marche de soutien.
T: Everywhere in Zaire. At the
time when the pope gave his
approval I was in Kamina.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes. What it meant was that all
the people marched through the
streets, chanting "The pope
approves, the pope approves. He
has nothing against changing the
names of the Zairians."
F: I see.
T: Yes. [aside, looking at
something on painting] There is
something -- it doesn't matter, it
is dry now. There was oil in one
of the colors.
F: I see
T: Yes.
F: Red.
T: There you are; no, violet.
F: Violet.
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30.
F: tena: monument ya J: ya: ya :
MPR: numéro nonante et un:
[Painting 92: The Party Monument
at Kipushi]
T: nonante et un:
F: ni paka kuonyesha:
T: ni kuonyesha: eeh: naissa:
flambeau ya révolution/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: vile ulisema utaweza kwa: fanya
hata: wala ya hapa Lubumbashi:
T: ah nitaweza kufanya Lubumbashi
ou bien nitafanya: fasi yote mais
sawa minaikala Kipushi: nafanya ya
Kipushi/ ou bien kama unapenda
kafoto yake nitakuleteako/ ni
vile/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
31.
F: tena: discours à l'ONU:
[Painting 93: Mobutu's Speech
before the United Nations
Assembly]
T: à l'ONU:
F: ile [rummaging with painting]:
tulisumbulia juu ya ile/
T: c'est bon/
F: sawa minaona: donc uliweka ma:
kabila yote ku fasi yabo:
T: ku fasi yabo/
F: hapa mu Amérique du Nord ni: ni
nani kule?
T: Amérique du: du Sud? non:
F: ? Nord/
T: mule: ni: non: umu ni Amérique?
ni: nègres/
F: ni nègres?
T: eeh/
F: ni nègres ...?...
T: Américain/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/
F: na tena: mu: mu nani? eeh
[interrupt conversation and
recording] na: Indien? Indien iko
na:
T: iko/
F: na nani: na:
T: aah/
F: kichwa yake na:
T: bon/ Indien iko na: bapeaux
T: Yes.
F: To show he is the pope.
T: There you are.
30.
F: Then there is the monument of
the MPR, number ninety-one
[Painting 92: The Party Monument
at Kipushi].
T: Ninety-one.
F: It is to show...
T: It is to show the torch of the
revolution.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: As you said, you could also do
the Party monument here in
Lubumbashi.
T: Oh, I could do Lubumbashi, or
any place. But I live in Kipushi,
so I did the one in Kipushi. If
you want I can bring you a small
photograph of it. It is just the
same.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
31.
F: And then the speech at the
United Nations' [Painting 93:
Mobutu's Speech before the United
Nations Assembly].
T: At the United Nations'.
F: This one [rummaging], we talked
about it.
T: That's alright.
F: As I can see, you put every
race of people into their place.
T: Their place.
F: Here in North America, who are
those people?
T: You mean in South America.
F: No, North America.
T: There, in America? Those are
negroes.
F: Negroes?
T: Yes.
F: Negroes?
T: American[ Negroes].
F: Yes, yes.
T: Yes.
F: And then, where is this? Wait
[interrupt conversation and
recording] ... And this Indian?
The Indian has...
T: He has...
F: On his head he has...
T: Alright, the Indian has a --
they are the redskins, right?
F: Yes?
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rouge eh?
F: eeh?
T: bapeaux rouges: eko na ile:
maplumes/
F: eko mu Asie?
T: ah mu Asie/
F: kumbe: bazungu:
T: ule ni: jaune:
F: jaune:
T: baChinois baJaponais:
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na ule ku Océanie?
T: Océanie ni ba: ts: beko: ni
bantu meushi tu tuseme/
F: eeh/
T: mais beko na peau moya sawa
chocolat/
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: mm/
T: bale baMexicains: ni ba: ba: ba
ba baBrésiliens:
F: ahah/
T: eeh/
F: ahah/ ...?... discours yake:
T: mm/
32.
F: tena ni mi: mamesures:
[Painting 94: Zairianization]
T: bon/
F: bazungu:
T: c'est ça/
F: banakwenda/ [laughs]
T: bazungu/ mais: sababu na mi
nalifanya kwa mbio eh?
F: eeh/
T: shiwezi nakufichika: idée yangu
ilikuya kama: nitaweka madame: na
batoto: et puis mitaweka: nani:
madame vilevile muke yake: na
batoto/ ?niliwaza kutengeneza:
F: mais haukukuwa na wakati/
T: sawa vile na mi: shikuwa: ni
mimi sasa mutakwenda leo/
F: aaah/
T: aah/
F: nonante deux: mesures du trente
T: nonante deux: oui: mesures du
trente novembre/
F: mais Tshiani: juu ya: juu ya
nini ulichagula Tshiani?
T: Tshiani: puisque ni:
établissement moya minafahumu humu
kabisa/
F: zamani ilikuwa nini?
T: Tshiani zamani? non/ sifahamu
vile ilikuwa zamani/
T: The redskins, they wear those
feathers.
F: He lives in Asia?
T: Yes, in Asia.
F: And then the whites
T: [No], that one is yellow.
F: Yellow.
T: Those are the Chinese and
Japanese.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And this one in Oceania?
T: In Oceania. Let's say those are
dark people.
F: I see.
T: They have skin the color of
chocolate.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And over here are the Mexicans
and Brazilians.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: I see, so that was his speech.
T: Mm-hmm.
32.
F: Now the measures [Painting 94:
Zairianization].
T: Alright.
F: [Against the] whites.
T: That's it.
F: They are leaving. [laughs]
T: The whites. But -- [this is a
painting] I did in a hurry, right?
F: Yes.
T: Well, to be honest, I was
planning to show both a white
woman with her children, [the
white man] with his wife and her
children. I thought I could still
do this.
F: But you did not have the time
T: No, I didn't and you are going
to leave today.
F: Aah.
T: Yes.
F: Ninety-nine, measures of 30.
T: Ninety-nine, yes, measures of
November 30.
F: Now [reading] "Tshiani," why
did you chose this name Tshiani?
T: Because Tshiani is an
establishment here that I know
quite well.
F: What was it called before [it
was Zairianized]?
T: Tshiani? I really don't know.
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F: kumbe wale walikuwa Kasaiens ya
zamani/
T: ah ah apana bantu? mi sikujue/
F: na muzungu:
T: ni vile: anaenda:
F: anaenda tu na valise yake/
T: na valise yake: ile bitu yake
ilibakia/ mm/
F: mesures/
33.
bon/ ts: sawa vile tunafika ku
mwisho: tableau ya mwisho:
président: [Painting 95:
Happiness, Tanquillity, and the
Joy of Living in Peace]
T: bonheur:
F: anatembea na motokari yake/
T: bon: na mukombo ile: bâton
pelerin: na chapeau: ya busultani:
na abacos:
F: mm/
T: na foulard mu shingo:
F: mm/
T: c'est que sawa anasemaka yee
anasema ni authenticité: yetu/
F: mm/
T: ni mawazo ya muntu/ shi kusema
puisque: bazungu balileta manguo:
shee tunavwala: c'est que haina
nani: non: ni mawazo: sawa bo hata
balileta: mais tunatengenezayo mu
akili yetu na shee/
F: mm/
T: ile ni: insigne unafahamu:
justice: paix: travail/ ou bien
paix justice travail/
F: mm/
T: na drapeau: na lumière: ni juu
ya shee
F: na mwangaza yake ...?...
T: booote: na motokari yake: c'est
que ni shee boote: mu ile lumière:
inatuangazia/ sawa vile nakuambia
paix: tranquilité/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: bon/ bon: tulifika ku mwisho/
T: ahah/
34.
F: aah: ts: nazani tuko tuko: tena
na bintu mingi ya ku: kusumbulia
juu ya: histoire:
T: eheh/
F: mawazo ingine/ ...?... mara
ingine mawazo unaweza kuweka mu
tableaux/
F: So maybe it had belonged to
Kasaian traders.
T: No, not to Africans. I just
don't know.
F: And the white man...
T: ... leaves.
F: He leaves with his suitcase.
T: With his suitcase, his
possessions stayed behind.
F: The measures.
33.
F: So we come to the end, last
picture. The president [Painting
95: Happiness, Tranquillity, and
the Joy of Living in Peace].
T: Happiness.
F: The president drives around in
his car.
T: Yes, with his staff, his
"pilgrim's staff," his chief's
hat, his abacos [suit].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And a scarf around his neck.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That, as he has said, is what
our authenticity looks like.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It is an African idea. Just
because the Whites brought the
material it does not mean that we
follow their ideas when we dress.
We arrange our dress the way we
see it fit.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You know the emblem, "Justice,
Peace, Work," or rather "Peace,
Justice, Work."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the flag radiating light.
It's about us...
F: Its light...
T: ...all of us. Even the car, it
means that we all are in this
light that he shines on us, as I
said, in peace and tranquility.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Fine. Well, we have come to the
end.
T: Yes.
34.
F: Ah, well, I think we would
still have many things to talks
about regarding history.
T: Yes.
F: Other thoughts you could
perhaps put into paintings.
T: Ah, right now, the history is
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T: aah/ sasa sawa histoire
inaisha:
F: oui/
T: unata: unatamani: mawazo
ingine/
F: non hapana/ minaona/ si vile?
T: ah wee uniambia kama mimi:
F: non: sikukuwa na mawazo ingine
mais:
T: oh: mais:
F: utaweza
T: ...?...
F: utaweza kuweka mawazo yote mu
tableaux?
T: ah oui/ nitaweza tena/ bashi
[chuckles] nitakatala namna gani:
njo iko na mi iko natumika: niko
nafwata vile/ nitatumika tu kama
uko mufano/
F: mais kintu moya nilikuwa
kuuliza tena mais: ile kitabu
ulisoma/ sawa: mbele ulisema:
nilikuwa kusoma kitabu moya ya
Français/
T: bon/
F: auteur Français/
T: aah/ ya vie ya Lumumba:
F: ilikuwa: vie ya Lumumba?
T: eeh/
F: ilikuwa nani?
T: ooh: non: ilikuwaka kitabu ya
commissaire moya: wa: mapolice eh?
zamani/ zamani/
F: muzungu?
T: non: muntu mweushi/ zamani/
sasa: ile kitabu: kilikuwaka na:
sawa mukubwa yangu ni ule wa ku
Likasi:
F: mm/
T: alikuwa rafiki: njo
kumupatiaka/ tukisoma tu kwa
shiku: moja/ anabeba na kubeba/ ni
ki:
F: nani aliandika hii?
T: ah non/ sikukamataka mais: ile
wakati sifahamu/ hapa tena
nalikuya: pale nalikwendaka siku
moja kwa: Anni:
F: mm/
T: ku bibliothèque yake/ nalikuta
tena: ile vie ya Lumumba tena mara
ingine/ sasa hapa tu/
F: ku Anni?
T: kwa Anni huku/
F: Anni?
T: unaona nyumba: Anni: huyu
nalifansia portrait yake/
F: hapana/ Anni njo nini?
T: Anni?
finished.
F: Yes.
T: You would like more thoughts.
F: No, I see [what I see], right?
T: Well, you tell me, I...
F: No, I had no more ideas, but...
T: Oh, but...
F: Could you...
T: ...?...
F: You put any thought into
paintings?
T: Oh yes. I still could. Come on
[chuckles], how could I refuse?
It's up to me to work, I could go
on. I'll work if you have
something [I should do].
F: But there is one thing I wanted
to ask you, about the book you
read. Because earlier you said, "I
read a book by a Frenchman."
T: Alright.
F: A French author.
T: Ah, about the life of Lumumba.
F: So it was the life of Lumumba?
T: Yes.
F: Who was [the author]?
T: Oh, no [that I don't know]. The
book belonged to a police officer,
right? Long ago.
F: A white?
T: No, a black man. It was long
ago. At the moment, the book is
with my elder brother [or sister],
the one who lives in Likasi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The police officer] was his
friend, so he gave him [the book].
If we had a day to read it [that
was all], then he carried it away.
F: But who wrote this book?
T: Ah, I did not take notes at the
time, I don't know [the author].
Just now, when I went to Anni's
one day...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I saw [the book], this life
of Lumumba, again in her library.
This was just recently.
F: At Anni's.
T: At Anni's here.
F: Anni?
T: You see the house -- Anni, the
one whose portrait I did.
F: No. What is "Anni?" 26
T: Anni?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Oh, that's her name, the name
of a person. A woman, her name ...
F: In what part of town [does she
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F: mm/
T: oh: jina yake/ jina ya muntu/
mwanamuke: jina yake ya ...?...
F: ku: ku: ku nani: ku zone gani?
T: [with impatience] ni apa/ ii
avenue Biayi/
F: c'est vrai?
T: kuko mu mwisho eh/ uyu Anni
nalifansia portrait yake
minamuachia: ananiachia m...?...
F: aah: Anni: ule muzungu Anni?
T: aaah/
F: oui oui oui/
T: ts ts/
F: oui/
T: sasa ule: ule kijana ungine
Rwandais mulefu hivi:
F: mm/
T: njo alikuwa na ile: kitabu mu:
mu nani: mu bibliothèque yake/
F: eyo/ tena ba: bitabu ingine:
ulisoma?
T: ah: niisha: niliisha kusoma
bitabu mingi: majournaux: tout/
njo ilinipermettre: nifwate sawa
vile minakufwatilia/ hata
minafwata juste: kuko ingine
itakuwa na kosa kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: mais: mu yangu minaona kama:
njo yote na mi nalionaka/
F: mm: unakamata kanotes:
unaandika?
T: eh nikamata notes: kama minaona
mambo: minakamata notes: kunaisha/
inabakia mu kichwa yangu sasa/
35.
F: sasa utaweza kuweka ku
matableaux mawazo yako juu ya
l'avenir: [claps] du pays?
T: ah ah/
F: tulifika tu hapa sasa:
T: ya avenir du pays?
F: i: ile: bintu bitakayakuja/
[laughs]
T: bon: voilà kwa lakini: unasema
mambo ya kweli/ wala apa
minakuambiaka: si bongo: ou bien
ni juu ya kusema: uni: ni?kuwe tu
niko napata makuta/
F: mm/
T: non: ni ile mambo ya kweli na
mi minaisha kuona/ avenir: mi
naliwazaka avenir: mbele ya wakati
unanielezea eh? Sendwe achingaliki
muzima/ bon: témoin yangu eh? ni
kitabu yangu mi: naliandikaka
kitabu: nalianza ile kitabu na
live]?
T: [with impatience]. Here, on
Avenue Biayi.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes, toward the end. I did a
portrait of this Anni and left if
for her. And she left...
F: Ah, Anni. This white woman,
Anni?
T: Yes.
F: Yes, yes.
T: [making an impatient noise]
F: Yes.
T: Now, this young man from
Rwanda, the tall one...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... he had this book in his
library.
F: I see. And were there other
books you read?
T: Ah, I've read many books,
journals, everything. That was
what made it possible to follow a
line in what I painted for you.
Though, even if I followed the
correct line, there will be
mistakes in some parts.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But, as far as my contribution
is concerned, all that is based on
what I saw.
F: Mm-hmm. Do you take little
notes, do you write [things down]?
T: Yes, I take notes. When I see
something, I take a note, but that
is all. From then on its lodged in
my head.
35.
F: Now, would you be able to put
into paintings your thoughts about
the future of the country?
T: Ah, ah.
F: [From the point to which] we
just got.
T: [Thoughts] about the future of
the country?
F: Of those things to come
[laughs].
T: Fine. Here you say something
that is true. As I am talking to
you, this is not a lie, nor is
because I am telling myself, "I'll
make some money."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No, I have seen those things
that are true. The future -- I
imagined the future even before
you told me to, you understand? It
was at a time when Sendwe was
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miaka: nalianza mu cinquante:
c'était en cinquante neuf/ njo
nalianza ile kitabu/ bon:
naliandika tu shiku moya: ni
kusema: kwanzia leo nitaanza vie
yangu yote: paka shiku
nitakufwaka/ kama minatembea nayo:
sawa hivi nakuwa kwako/ mitarudia
ku nyumba: minaandika pa papier:
leo nalitembea: nalifika kwa
monsieur Fabian:
F: hapa sasa unafanya vile?
T: non: sasa ile kitabu ile:
F: oui/
T: ilibakia ku Kamina/ si chance:
muloko wangu anakwenda kutumika
kule: anabeba ile kitabu:
anakwenda nakye ku Kananga/
kikoapo bien/ bon: sasa shiku moya
naliandikaka minasema: mu: mu
mambo ya inchi eh?
F: mm/
T: minaona ku shiku kidogo
itakuya: Janson Sendwe ataweza
kufa peut-être: mu hii juma tu/ na
ile mambo: ilitokeaka juste
monsieur Fabian: shikudanganye:
F: mm/
T: wala shikuseme nikuelezee: na
minasagaaka/ sikusema kama niko
prophète/ tulishikia shiku mbili
banasema: Janson Sendwe banamuua/
F: banamuua/
T: eh: minasagaa kabisa/
F: mm/
T: nasagaa/
F: mm/
T: na ile papier ikoapo/ sawa vile
na uko muntu ulifunda mingi: kama
unaangaria ata ile bic naliandika
nayo: naliandika na encre: ni ya
zamani sana/ mais kwa avenir ya
pays: nitaweza kuwaza/ nitasema
mambo ya kweli ou bien ya bongo/
mais kama niko na chance:
utakwendaka kuona na mwee utasema
ni [voice trailing off]...?.../
nitapima tu/ njo minawazaka/
F: ndiyo/
T: mm/
F: bon: kama: sawa vile tulisema:
[aside] attends: Madame atafika:
tusikilizane:
T: très bien:
F: sasa: kwa sasa tunapikia:
aksanti/
T: merci mingi ...?...
F: ulitusaidia:
T: c'est ça/
still alive. Alright, [you ask who
is] my witness? It's a book. I
wrote a book. I began with it the
years '50, '59. That was when I
started this book. Fine, one day I
wrote: Starting today I am going
to begin [writing about] my whole
life, until the day I die. I would
walk around with the book, for
instance, as I visit you now, and
then go back home and write on the
paper: "Today I took a walk and
got to Mr. Fabian's."
F: Are you still doing this>
T: No, right now, this book...
F: Yes.
T: ...is back in Kamina. It
happened because my younger
brother went to work there. He
took the book along to Kananga.
That's where it is, in a good
state. Fine. So one day I wrote:
"In the affairs of the nation..."
Right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "I see a day will come soon
when Jason Sendwe will die,
perhaps this week already." And
that is exactly what happened, Mr.
Fabian, I am not putting you on.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Let me tell you, I was amazed.
I am not saying I'm a prophet. But
after two days we heard that they
had killed Jason Sendwe.
F: They had killed him.
T: I was really amazed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I was amazed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And this piece of paper still
exists. You are a well-educated
person. Look at this pen I am
writing with, with ink, it is very
old. 27 But with regard to the
future of the country, I can
think. I will speak the truth, or
tell lies. But if I succeed, you
are going to see and you'll say...
?... [voice trailing off]. That's
what I think.
F: Yes.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Fine, as we said...[aside]
wait, my wife has come, let's
agree on this.
T: Very well.
F: For now, we thank you.
T: Thanks a lot.
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F: tuko na mambo mingi ya kuwaza:
na kuangaria:
T: mm/
F: tableaux tunabeba kwetu:
tutabakia na: ukumbusho/
T: bon: nasema ni mitabakia na
mukumbuo kwenu mingi/
F: eyo/
1
ECS ngazi, "ladder, stairs".
[back to main text]
2
See Lenselear (1983: 459): sambaa,
"disperser, s'étendre sur".
[back to main text]
3
Professor Victor Bol, then a colleague at the
university in Lubumbashi, for whom
Tshibumba also did many paintings.
[back to main text]
4
Luba munyanga (mi) "rammelaar; espèce de
crécelle (petite calebasse contenant des
noyaux..." (Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:
440).
[back to main text]
5
Possibly (with a gesture) comme ça.
[back to main text]
6
Probably kufwata=kufwatula. Or: "following"
the model taken for painting the plane.
[back to main text]
7
Lenselaer (1983: p 412), under -peta....Kgw.
"pete" = Sw. utepe, "galon indiquant un grade"
[stripes indicating a grade].
[back to main text]
8
So here is another 'short cut' picture -- a
condensed evocation of a series of events.
[back to main text]
F: You have helped us.
T: That's right.
F: We have a lot to think about
and to look at.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: The painting we'll take home,
we'll keep the memory.
T: Fine. I'll stay with you in
memory.
F: Yes.
1 The count is still off by one.
[back to main text]
2 I pronounced the French term as a question
and T. thought that I was asking for a
translation in Swahili. See also above when I
asked about the umbrellas: mamvuli:
parapluies.
[back to main text]
3 Here (and a little earlier) T. uses the
expression kutengeneza, lit. "to arrange, to put
in order". It adds to painting the idea of
composition.
[back to main text]
4 In translation this sounds as if T. was not
quite sure about the official name. The original
show that he corrects himself; he had said
congolais and now realizes that armée
requires congolaise.
[back to main text]
5 T. had difficulties with the term in French
(mukuba is the Swahili word) and now corrects
himself.
[back to main text]
6 The subject here is not clear, it could also be
the child.
[back to main text]
7 Because of much overlap and unfinished
sentences this passage is difficult to follow. T.
understood at the time that I was eager to
record the song.
[back to main text]
8 This is a tentative transcription to be
corrected by a speaker of the language.
[back to main text]
9 It is impossible to sort out the exact
references of the terms secession and
revolution in this exchange. Most likely T. had
in mind the anti-Tshombe faction among the
Luba of Katanga.
[back to main text]
10 "They" refers to the other Indian UN
soldiers, see below.
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[back to main text]
11 This is the "stronger" translation, taking the
tu in the verb unatufanya as an object marker.
But (see above) it could also be the adverb tu,
"only, just", inserted in the verb.
[back to main text]
12 T. is still searching for the right term.
[back to main text]
13 The recording is not clear; it is also possible
that T. wanted to say that they quickly rounded
up to greet Sendwe.
[back to main text]
14 T. does not complete the sentence. The
following passage is freely translated.
[back to main text]
15 I am unable to make sense of the rest of
the sentence. In this transcription the verb
-sumbulia, "have a conversation", occurs twice
but there is not enough syntactic information to
tell who converses with whom (T. with this
monkeys; other people with T.?).
[back to main text]
16 There was a confusion between jembe,
"hoe", and shoka, "axe" or "adze". Both the
hoe and the (ceremonial) adze or hatchet have
the blade fixed at right angles to the shaft.
[back to main text]
17 I made a mistake in Swahili, using yabo,
"their's", instead of yake, "his", but T.
understood what I meant.
[back to main text]
18 One needs the picture to understand this.
The left frame cuts the "inno" off "cent." T. fills
the gap but does not further explain the
meaning (a name? a slogan?).
[back to main text]
19 T. at this point uses the general term mayi,
"water". So, to be exact, one should perhaps
say "a body of water." But in the following he
speaks of a river.
[back to main text]
20 T. had used the French "lion", now he gives
the Swahili term.
[back to main text]
21 My guess at the enigmatic phrase kwanza
kwake.
[back to main text]
22 Totally botched sentence in the original. It
should have been: baliingisha makaka ndani?
did they put a monkey inside? But the whole
exchange is based on a misunderstanding on
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my side. T. is being polite when he uses the
French (baby-talk) caca for excrements, shit.
Together with the plural/collective prefix ma-
this sounds to me like makaka, sometimes
heard for French macaque, "monkey", a
derogatory, racist term.
[back to main text]
23 Throughout, T. occasionally took questions I
pronounced as "fillers," as requests for
translation. This one is linguistically interesting.
It is not so much a translation but a
paraphrase with only the verbs changed from
French into Swahili.
[back to main text]
24 T. had understood my question, angaliki, "is
he alive", as something like ni giliki, "was he a
Greek?" Hence his response.
[back to main text]
25 T. interrupts his statement to respond to a
question I must have asked (incomprehensible
on the tape) about the source of his
knowledge.
[back to main text]
26 My question shows that I still wasn't sure
whether this was a person's name or some
acronym.
[back to main text]
27 A cryptic statement. I think T. here calls on
his old pen as a kind of witness for the fact that
he has been a writer for a long time.
[back to main text]
References
Lenselaer, Alphonse. (1983). Dictionnaire swahili-français. Paris: Editions Karthala.
Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire kiluba - français. Tervuren: Musée
Royale de l'Afrique Centrale.
[Introduction]
[First Session, Part 1]
[First Session, Part 2]
[Second Session, Part 1]
[Second Session, Part 2]
[Third Session, Part 1]
[Fourth Session]
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[LPCA Home Page]
© Transcript & Translation by Johannes Fabian
Archived: 6 June 2000
Revisions: 24 August 2001 (lay-out of toc changed, APS Volume number added), 31 October
2001 (ISSN added)
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