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lfiaSi Zalian didi RonisZieba<br />
gaimarTa. ar vici, vinc lieJSi<br />
Cavida, yvela „qarTuli ocnebis”<br />
mier iyo Tu ara gagzavnili, magram<br />
Jurnalistebi rom namdvilad<br />
iqnebodnen am mizniT Casulebi,<br />
es cxadia. magaliTad,<br />
ramiSvili. lieJSi SeiZleba 250<br />
kaci iyo, magram Tu qalaqebs CamovTvliT,<br />
ramdenSi gaimarTa es<br />
RonisZieba _ ukve masStaburi<br />
saxe aqvs. gasagebia, rom orive<br />
mxarem Caiyvana xalxi, orive mxare<br />
erTmaneTs zonders eZaxis,<br />
ar momwons, rom „qarTulma ocnebam”<br />
gadaiRo is, rasac „nacionaluri<br />
moZraoba” akeTebda. zonderebis<br />
garda iq sxva adamianebic<br />
iyvnen, ramdenime kaci<br />
vnaxe, romelic saqarTvelodan<br />
miSas mmarTvelobis periodSi<br />
gaiqca. es adamianebi marTla aprotestebdnen.<br />
saboloo jamSi, samarcxvino<br />
ambavi moxda da amis<br />
yureba sasiamovno ar iyo. Tumca<br />
mainc vfiqrob, rom „ocnebas” es<br />
faqti reagirebis gareSe ar unda<br />
daetovebina, im qveynebSi, sadac<br />
Sexvedrebi tardeboda. magram<br />
kontraqciis mowyoba sxvanairad<br />
SeiZleboda, anu mixeil saakaSvilis<br />
mowinaaRmdege emigrantebis<br />
mobilizebiT. aseTi emigrantebi<br />
ki evropaSi uamravia. im „zonderebidan”,<br />
romelic „rusTavi 2-<br />
ma” aCvena, erT-erTi namdvilad<br />
ar iyo iq Casuli. imaT aqeT ratom<br />
Camohyva, ar vici. erT-erTi<br />
sportsmeni iq didi xania, aris.<br />
rasakvirvelia, SeiZleboda emigrantebis<br />
mobilizacia, SeiZleboda<br />
aseve mxolod Jurnalistebis<br />
gagzavnac. roca mekiTxebiT,<br />
risTvis dasWirdaT am adamianebis<br />
wayvanao, gpasuxobT, rom es<br />
minusi iyo da ar iyo kargad organizebuli.<br />
yvelafer amis gake-<br />
Teba SeiZleboda evropuli resursiT<br />
_ „nacionaluri moZraobis”<br />
mowinaaRmdege emigrantebiT.<br />
anu xelisuflebas ufro civilizebulad<br />
unda gaeca pasuxi.<br />
_ mas Semdeg, rac beselias<br />
misamarTiT xmauri atyda, aqtiurad<br />
daiwyo saubari, rom Sesa-<br />
Zloa, man calke partia Seqmnas<br />
an fraqciad gamoeyos Tavis<br />
ramdenime TanamoazresTan er-<br />
Tad. Tqven axseneT, rom beselias<br />
taqtikasa da logikas kar-<br />
gad icnobT. ramdenad realuri<br />
da logikuri svla iqneba bese-<br />
lias mxridan msgavsi nabiji?<br />
_ sasamarTlo TemasTan dakav-<br />
SirebiT beseliasa da misi Tanamoazreebis<br />
umravlesobaSi yofna<br />
aucilebelia. „qarTulma ocnebam”<br />
sasamarTlo im formiT, ra<br />
formiTac sawyis etapze Semogv-<br />
Tavaza, gansakuTrebiT ki iusticiis<br />
mTavarma sabWom mosamarTleebis<br />
arCevis wesi, _ am formebis<br />
miReba arafriT SeiZleba. im<br />
xalxis gaSveba ar SeiZleba. beselia<br />
ukidures nabijze wavida,<br />
rom Tqva, saerTod SevaCeroT<br />
mosamarTleebis uvadod daniSvnao.<br />
mosamarTleebis uvadod<br />
daniSvnis akrZalva ewinaaRmdegeba<br />
konstituciis mTel logikas,<br />
Tumca, praqtikulad, gamosavali<br />
ar dautoves. samwuxarod, saapelacio<br />
sasamarTloSi uvadod<br />
daniSnulTa Soris iseTi mosamarTleebi<br />
„gaiparnen”, romlebic<br />
sazogadoebisTvis absoluturad<br />
miuRebelia. xSirad miTqvams<br />
da kidev erTxel vimeoreb: murusiZis<br />
gancxadeba, rom dRevandeli<br />
xelisufleba sasamarTlos<br />
ebrZvis, es mtknari sicruea.<br />
dRevandeli xelisufleba, politikuri<br />
Zalebi Tu politikosebi<br />
sasamarTlos ki ar ebrZvian,<br />
am sasamarTlo jgufSi konkretul<br />
pirovnebebs ebrZvian. es<br />
konkretuli jgufi ki farad<br />
iyenebs danarCen mosamarTleebs.<br />
sxva mosamarTleebs vesaubre da<br />
isini amboben, iseTi STabeWdileba<br />
gvrCeba, TiTqos saqarTvelo-<br />
Si saerTod ar varsebobT, aravin<br />
arafers gvekiTxeba, murusiZem<br />
cxvrebiviT migviwvia mosamarTleTa<br />
konferenciaze da Cveni<br />
saxeliT saubrobdao. bunebrivi<br />
SekiTxva gamiCnda, _ ratom ar amoiReT<br />
xma-meTqi? da pirdapir<br />
miTxres, _ Cvens amJamindel mdgomareobas<br />
vufrTxildebiTo.<br />
adamianis bunebaa _ zogs saku-<br />
Tari poziciis xmamaRla dafiqsirebis<br />
eSinia. kiTxvas rom davubrundeT,<br />
umravlesobidan<br />
maTi gamosvla, am etapze, swori<br />
ar iqneba. Tu zogierTma politikurma<br />
figuram mainc moindoma<br />
im arCevis wesis gatana, romelsac<br />
sazogadoeba aprotestebs,<br />
e. i. beseliasa da mis Tanamoazreebs<br />
sxva gamosavali ar eqnebaT<br />
da unda gavidnen.<br />
_ sazogadoebis did nawils<br />
beselias misamarTiT negatiuri<br />
damokidebuleba aqvs. gamoyofis<br />
SemTxvevaSi mis gunds, cxadia,<br />
gansakuTrebuli<br />
finansuri<br />
resursi ar eqneba da sazogadoebis<br />
mxardaWeriTac ver isarge-<br />
blebs. Tqven raime perspeqtivas<br />
xedavT?<br />
_ uzarmazari mxardaWera eqneba.<br />
_ ra gaZlevT imis safuZvels,<br />
rom beselias mxardaWera eqne-<br />
ba?<br />
_ beseliaSi ara, ambavSia saqme.<br />
am ambis win rom „petre” idges,<br />
SeiZleba, 100%-iani mxardaWera<br />
hqondes, magram beselias SemTx-<br />
294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com<br />
vevaSi 50%-iani mxardaWera iqneba.<br />
mTeli socialuri da sazogadoebrivi<br />
jgufebi aRSfoTebulebi<br />
arian „qarTuli ocnebis”<br />
SecdomebiT. sasamarTlos saqme<br />
iyo „bolis gamoSvebis” erT-er-<br />
Ti centraluri faqtori. es adamianebi<br />
TavianT ganwyobebs, Tundac,<br />
eleqtronuli mediiT gamoxatavdnen,<br />
Tumca axla es yvelaferi<br />
konsolidirebulad moxda.<br />
amas ematebian woniani parlamentarebi.<br />
aqedan gamomdinare,<br />
droSas vin aiRebs xelSi, amas<br />
gadamwyveti mniSvneloba ar aqvs.<br />
mTavaria ara gza, aramed mizani.<br />
mizani aris is, rom sasamarTlo<br />
aseTi formiT ar Sedges. „ocnebam”<br />
es nabiji ar unda gadadgas.<br />
_ arsebuli viTarebidan Cans,<br />
rom swored am nabijs gadadgams<br />
da Tu es moxda, ra politikuri<br />
fasis gadaxda mouwevs?<br />
_ darwmunebuli var, midgomas<br />
gadaxedaven. imeds vitoveb, mosamarTleobis<br />
is kandidatebi,<br />
romlebzec dRes vsaubrobT, ver<br />
gavlen. am imeds ara mxolod sazogadoebis<br />
saprotesto muxti<br />
maZlevs, aramed Cveni dasavleli<br />
partniorebis poziciebic, romelsac<br />
aseve kargad vicnob. mgonia,<br />
visac sxvanairi midgomebi<br />
ufro ainteresebs, nawilobriv<br />
viRacebis gayvana SeiZleba moindomon,<br />
magram wonian figurebs<br />
ver gaiyvanen, magaliTad, iseTs<br />
rogoric murusiZea. „qarTul<br />
ocnebas” seriozuli problemebi<br />
Seeqmneba, Tuki „ocnebidan”<br />
gasulebiT dakompleqtebuli<br />
axali fraqcia Camoyalibdeba. saparlamento<br />
cxovrebis weliwadnaxevari<br />
rCeba. amis daSveba araviTar<br />
SemTxvevaSi ar SeiZleba.<br />
_ qveyanaSi da „qarTul oc-<br />
nebaSi” Seqmnili viTarebidan<br />
gamomdinare migaCniaT Tu ara<br />
saWirod ivaniSvilis premier-<br />
ministris postze dabruneba?<br />
_ dausrulebeli saubaria<br />
araformalur mmarTvelobaze.<br />
ar mimaCnia araformalur mmar-<br />
Tvelobad partiis lideris mier<br />
gacemuli direqtivebi. rac Seexeba<br />
murusiZe-CinCalaZes, magas<br />
namdvilad ver vityvi, rom es<br />
ambavi ivaniSvilis gareSe xdeba,<br />
magram xSirad iseTi politikuri<br />
nabijebi idgmeba, romelic mas-<br />
Tan SeTanxmebuli ar yofila,<br />
rac, sxvaTa Soris, cudia.<br />
_ anu Tqven ambobT, rom<br />
ivaniSvils ufro metad unda<br />
uTanxmebdnen gadawyvetilebebs<br />
da igi ufro aqtiurad unda<br />
iyos CarTuli?<br />
_ rasakvirvelia, Tu marTav,<br />
bolomde unda marTo _ swored<br />
`sasamarTlo TemasTan dakavSirebiT beseliasa da misi Tanamoazreebis<br />
umravlesobaSi yofna aucilebelia. `qarTulma ocnebam~ sasamarTlo im<br />
formiT, ra formiTac sawyis etapze SemogvTavaza, gansakuTrebiT ki<br />
iusticiis mTavarma sabWom mosamarTleebis arCevis wesi, - am formebis miReba<br />
arafriT SeiZleba. im xalxis gaSveba ar SeiZleba. beselia ukidures nabijze<br />
wavida, rom Tqva, saerTod SevaCeroT mosamarTleebis uvadod daniSvnao.<br />
mosamarTleebis uvadod daniSvnis akrZalva ewinaaRmdegeba konstituciis<br />
mTel logikas, Tumca, praqtikulad, gamosavali ar dautoves. samwuxarod,<br />
saapelacio sasamarTloSi uvadod daniSnulTa Soris iseTi mosamarTleebi<br />
`gaiparnen~, romlebic sazogadoebisTvis absoluturad miuRebelia~<br />
es aris xelmZRvanelis pasuxismgebloba.<br />
arsebobs evropuli<br />
tipis partiebi, romelic naklebad<br />
ereva mTavrobis muSaobaSi.<br />
amavdroulad, arsebobs sxva tipis<br />
partiebic, roca maTi xelmZRvaneloba<br />
an TviTon xdeba<br />
mTavrobis meTauri, an ereva<br />
mTavrobis muSaobaSi.<br />
_ Tqven Tu ambobT, rom<br />
ivaniSvili ufro metad unda<br />
Caerios qveynis mmarTvelobaSi,<br />
e. i. misi premier-ministris Tan-<br />
amdebobaze dabruneba logi-<br />
kuria...<br />
_ mesmis, ra logikasac avi-<br />
TarebT, magram premier-ministroba<br />
CvenTan, erTi mxriv, saxelmwifos<br />
meTaurs ki niSnavs,<br />
magram am ganmartebasTan dakav-<br />
SirebiT konstitucia bundovania.<br />
TviTon biZina ivaniSvili im<br />
tipis adamiania, romelsac politikaSi<br />
am formiT yofna ar xiblavs.<br />
misTvis ar aris komfortuli<br />
aseT Tanamdebobaze yofna,<br />
rac mis kontrproduqtiulobas<br />
iwvevs. sjobs, isev partiis<br />
xelmZRvanelis Tanamdebobaze<br />
iyos, iqidanac SeuZlia, procesi<br />
mSvenivrad marTos, oRond mar-<br />
Tos.<br />
_ ivaniSvili partiis SigniT<br />
kargavs Tu ara avtoritets?<br />
_ partiis SigniT ar kargavs<br />
avtoritets, ubralod, sxva rame<br />
ar momwons, rom sazogadoebaSi<br />
kargavs avtoritets. gansakuTrebiT<br />
mas Semdeg, rac saprezidento<br />
arCevnebis meore turis win<br />
cnobili gancxadeba gaakeTa, rom<br />
erT weliwadSi yvelafers ukeTesobisken<br />
Secvlis. jerjerobiT<br />
amas ar mohyolia aqtiuri da<br />
qmediTi nabijebi, piriqiT skandalebi<br />
moyva. garkveul etapze<br />
iseTi STabeWdilebac ki Semeqmna,<br />
rom es skandalebi vinmes mier<br />
xelovnurad xom ar iyo provocirebuli<br />
misi an „qarTuli ocnebis”<br />
mtrebis mxridan. an, rogorc<br />
Cans, „qarTuli ocnebis” gauTvleli<br />
nabijebis xarjze moxda<br />
am skandalebis provocireba.<br />
aqedan gamomdinare, Tu es „xan-<br />
Zari” partiis xelmZRvanelobam<br />
da, maT Soris, biZina ivaniSvilma,<br />
droze ar Caaqro, Zalian cudi<br />
Sedegebi dadgeba, _ xalxi danapirebis<br />
Sesrulebas elodeba.<br />
im resursebis gaTvaliswinebiT,<br />
rac ivaniSvils aqvs, erT weliwadSi<br />
Zalian seriozuli nabijebis<br />
gadadgma SeiZleboda.<br />
_ Tqven ambobT, rom ivaniS-<br />
vils yvelanairi resursi aqvs,<br />
erT weliwadSi ukeTesobisken<br />
Secvalos mdgomareoba. Tumca<br />
am etapze amas ar akeTebs, ra-<br />
tom?<br />
_ ver vxsni. TviTon maqvs am<br />
TemebTan Sexeba. konkretuli<br />
kiTxvebi maqvs, ratom ar xdeba<br />
forsirebulad ekonomikurad<br />
sakvanZo, sasicocxlo gadawyvetilebebis<br />
miReba, _ pasuxs ver<br />
viReb. is, rasac axla safinanso<br />
seqtorTan dakavSirebiT akeTeben,<br />
es yvelaferi, albaT, kargia,<br />
magram sakvanZo ar aris _ ar<br />
moitans adamianis keTildReobis<br />
zrdis procesis dawyebas, samuSao<br />
adgilebis Seqmnas, socialur<br />
gardatexas, im riskebisa da<br />
safrTxeebis Semcirebas, romelic<br />
qveynis winaSe arsebobs.<br />
_ axla gismenT da „qarTuli<br />
ocnebis” misamarTiT xSirad<br />
warmoTqmuli sityva maxsendeba:<br />
„uunaro xelisufleba”, anu<br />
resursi aqvT da ver iyeneben?<br />
_ „ocnebas” aqvs fantastikuri<br />
unari, _ unari, ar miitanos<br />
sazogadoebasTan Tavisi gakeTebuli<br />
saqme.<br />
_ roca SeuZlia da ar<br />
akeTebs, amas ra hqvia?<br />
_ meore mxarea, _ sityva uunaros<br />
ar gamoiyenebdiT miSa<br />
saakaSvilis mmarTvelobis dros<br />
imitom, rom man da misma gundma<br />
10-jer metis Cveneba icoda, vidre<br />
akeTebda. axla bevrad<br />
gaizarda mSp (mTliani Sida produqti),<br />
socialuri daxmarebebi,<br />
magram, jer erTi, amis sazogadoebamde<br />
mitana ar ician da sakvanZo<br />
saqmeebSi iWedebian.<br />
_ Tu procesi inerciiT wavi-<br />
da da ivaniSvilma kidev ufro<br />
masStaburad dakarga sazogadoebaSi<br />
avtoriteti, ra emuqre-<br />
ba „ocnebas”?<br />
_ saqme is aris, rom politikur<br />
speqtrSi „qarTuli ocnebis”<br />
alternativa ar aris. aqedan gamomdinare,<br />
erTaderTi, rac Sei-<br />
Zleba „qarTul ocnebas” daemuqros,<br />
es aris arCevnebSi bevrad<br />
naklebi amomrCeveli. nebismier<br />
SemTxvevaSi, 2020 wels, „ocneba”<br />
saparlamento arCevnebSi warmatebas<br />
miaRwevs.<br />
N5 (266) 19.02-25.02.2019 w.<br />
15
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