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294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com ratom esxmis Tavs èvropuli mas Semdeg, rac politikurad giorgi abaSiZe ganqorwindnen, maT Soris Tbili urTierToba arasodes yofila, anu „nacionalebi” da „evropelebi” erTmaneTisTvis faruli kvantis dadebaze uars arasodes ambobdnen. am kuTxiT gan- sakuTrebiT giga bokerias coli, Tamar CergoleiSvili aqti- urobda, Tumca bolo dros viTareba kidev ufro daiZaba da „nacmoZraobaze” ieriSi giga bokeriam, akaki boboxiZem da oTar kaxaZemac miitanes. es, erTi SexedviT, gasakviri ar unda iyos, radgan politikur kuluarebSi didi xania, dadis xma, rom „ocnebasa” da „evropelebs” Soris faruli kavSirebi arsebobs. metic, bokerias politikur gunds „evroqocebsac” ki eZaxian. yvelaferi es „nacionaluri moZraobis” warmomadgenlisTvis, Tbilisis sakrebulos deputat levan xabeiSvilisTvis, SeTqmulebis Teoriaa, Tumca „qronika+”-sTan saubrisas adasturebs, rom „evropuli saqarTvelos” mxridan gaerTianebul opozi- ciasa da, kerZod, „nacmoZraobaze” Tavdasxma „ocnebis” wisqvilze asxams wyals! amis miuxedavad, levan xabeiSvili ganmartavs, rom axla opoziciam yvela pirad wy- enaze uari unda Tqvas da qveynis interesebidan gamomdinare imo- qmedos. es interesi ki, rogorc xabeiSvili ambobs, „ocnebis” xe- lisuflebidan gaSvebaa! sxvaTa Soris, „qronika+~-ma SemTxveviT isargebla da xabeiS- vils imis Sesaxebac hkiTxa, api- rebs Tu ara gaerTianebuli opozicia mamuka xazaraZesTan Tanam- Sromlobas? imas, Tu ra gvipasuxa Cvenma respondentma am kiTxvaze, winamdebare interviudan Seity- obT: _ levan, gaerTianebuli opozicia da „evropuli saqarTvelo” erTmaneTs ratom eqiSpeba, Tqven Soris Savma katam ratom gairbi- na? _ es Tema nakleb mniSvnelovania, magram radgan Tqven gainteresebT, visaubroT. samwuxarod, opoziciis erTi mxare, am SemTxvevaSi, „evropuli saqarTvelo”, giga bokerias xelmZRvanelobiT, cdilobs, gaerTianebul opoziciaze ieriSi miitanos, rac aranormaluri mgonia, miT umetes, am pirobebSi. _ „am pirobebSi” ras gulisx- mobT? _ korumpirebul, politikurad da moralurad absoluturad nulze myof xelisuflebas xalx- Si aranairi mxardaWera ar gaaCnia. am dros opoziciis gaTiTokaceba da erTmaneTze Tavdasxma biZina ivaniSvilisTvis saCuqaria! Sesabamisad, yvela adamiani, politikuri gaerTianeba Tu sazogadoebrivi jgufi, visac unda, rom isrebi, magaliTad, mixeil saakaSvilsa da mis gamonaTqvamebze an „erTian nacionalur moZraobaze” gadaitanos, nebsiT Tu uneblieT, biZina ivaniSvilisa da xelisuflebis wisqvilze asxams wyals! saerTod, ar mgonia, rom iseTi gamocdili politikosebi, rogorebic bokeria, boboxiZe da Zmani maTni arian, yvelafer amas SemTxveviT akeTebdnen. mokled, rom ara „evropuli saqarTvelos” Tavdasxma, araferi iqneboda, Tumca simarTle giTxraT, ver amovxseni, es Tavdasxma ras emsaxureba? iciT, rogori situaciaa? _ ai, ufrosTan bavSvi rom gaWinWyldeba da Sars eZebs, yvelaferi amas hgavs! am politikur realobaSi identobas kargaven da amitom qveynis interesebze maRla pirad interesebs ayeneben! _ levan, iqneb, yvelaferi es davalebaa, miT umetes, didi xania, dadis xma, rom „ocneba” cdilobs, xelisufleba „evropul saqarTve- los” gadaabaros? _ amasac getyviT. _ gismenT. _ erTia, me ras vfiqrob da, SesaZloa, am mimarTulebiTac vfiqrobde, magram meorea, sajarod ras vityvi, anu amas wina planze davayeneb Tu ara. TqvenTan interviuebSi bokeriasTan Cem damokidebulebaze misaubria, magram axla mTavari araa, bokeriasa da misi partiis mimarT me ra damokidebuleba maqvs, radgan bevrad mniSvnelovani amocanaa gadasaWreli, rac ivaniSvilis rusuli reJimis dasruleba da amis Semdeg Cveni qveynis winsvlaa. imasTan SedarebiT, rac qveyanaSi xdeba, bokerias wuxilebi yvelaze patara da puWura ambad mimaCnia! _ SeiZleba, magram Tu davuS- vebT, rom bokeria ivaniSvilis davalebas asrulebs, maSin? _ adamianebi daskvnas Cem gare- Sec gaakeTeben. giga bokeriam mixeil saakaSvils arafris gamo gauxsna cecxli. ise, pirdapir vTqvaT: amas „evropuli saqarTvelos” yvela wevri ar akeTebs! ase giga bokeria, kako boboxiZe, oTar kaxiZe da maTi „ideologiuri deda” _ Tamar CergoleiSvili iqcevian. sxva politikuri liderebi msgavs rameebs eridebian. amitom kargi iqneba, „evropulma saqarTvelom” gadaafasos, ra aris mniSvnelovani, Torem isrebis gadatana ivaniSvilis Tama- Sia! ar vici, amas davalebiT, yurSi CurCuliT akeTeben Tu uneblieT, magram faqtia: opozicia opozicias esxmis Tavs da es calsaxad ivaniSvilis wisqvilze wylis dasxmaa! sxvaTa Soris, elene xoStarias gansxvavebuli pozicia aqvs da, saerTod, rogorc vici, raionebSi Sexvedrebze dadioda da ambobda, partias vtoveb da moRvaweobis gagrZelebas damoukideblad vapirebo. mokled, faqtia, rom iq ukmayofileba aris, Tumca „evropul saqarTveloze” saubari ar minda. ubralod, Tamamad vambob, rom yvelafer amas bokeria, CergoleiSvili, boboxiZe da kaxiZe mizanmimarTulad akeTeben! _ asea Tu ise, es kinklaoba opoziciurad ganwyobil amom- rCevels abnevs. _ ra Tqma unda, kargi da normaluri ar aris, Tumca vimeoreb: levan xabeiSvili: `bokerias wuxilebi puWura ambad mimaCnia!~ CvenTvis yvelaze mniSvnelovani qveynis interesebia da piradze ar unda wavideT, Torem bokeria-TargamaZe-maWavarianTan gansxvavebuli Sexedulebebi yvelaze metad me maqvs da amaze sajarodac misaubria. sxvaTa Soris, kmayofili var, rom iseTi agresiuli bokeria, rogorsac bolo dros vuyurebT, „nacionalur moZraobasTan” afilirebuli ar aris! SeiZleba, calkeul sakiTxebze viTanamSromloT, magram calsaxad geubnebiT, rom `xazaraZem, praqtikulad, aRiara, rom winasaarCevnod ivaniSvilTan danaSaulebriv garigebaSi Sevida. aqedan gamomdinare, maqvs safuZveli, rom xazaraZis mimarT skeptikurad viyo ganwyobili, magram mis gundSi arian adamianebi, romlebTanac TanamSromloba, rig sakiTxebSi, ra Tqma unda, SesaZlebelia. Tu xazaraZe TamaSs iseve ar daiwyebs, rogorc, magaliTad, 2018 wels TamaSobda - erTi xeliT masze, Turme, zewola xorcieldeboda, meore xeliT ki gamodioda da ambobda, biznesSi renesansis xanaao. mokled, imis Tqma minda, rom Tu am brZolaSi xazaraZe gulwrfeli iqneba, ra Tqma unda, masTanac viTanamSromlebT!~ melia-xabeiSvil-dekanoiZe-udumaSvilisa da bokeria-boboxiZe- TargamaZe-maWavarianis partiebs Soris, ra Tqma unda, gansxvaveba aris! amitomac, 2018 wels adamianebma arCevani grigol vaSaZis sasargeblod gakeTes, romelic „nacionalur moZraobasac” warmoadgenda, anu gaerTianebulma opoziciam oTxjer meti mxardaWera miiRo, vidre giga bokeria-CergoleiSvilis kandidatma. aqedan gamomdinare, mgoni, sazogadoeba kargad xvdeba, rogori mniSvnelovania ara gansxvavebebze saubari, aramed _ gaerTianeba! ise, maTi upasuxismgeblo politikis gamo axla Cven am Temebze gviwevs saubari da ara _ imaze, Tu rogor unda davasruloT biZina ivaniSvili an imaze, Tu ra xdeboda zalkalianisa da ruseTis sagareo saqmeTa ministris Sexvedraze. sxvaTa Soris, qarTuli mxare sxva rames ambobs, rusuli ki _ sxvas. ise, sainteresoa, erTmaneTs saerTod ratom Sexvdnen? _ am SexvedraSi cudi ra aris? _ ruseTTan erTi-erTze darCena imas niSnavs, rom Cvens dasavlel megobrebsa da partniorebs veubnebiT, okupaciis mogvareba marto SegviZliao. roca teritoriebi okupirebulia da ukanono borderizacia mimdinareobs, Cveni qveynis interesebze Cven unda vifiqroT, anu Tu megobrebs ar vetyviT, Tqveni daxmarba gvWirdebao, isini, ra Tqma unda, gvetyvian, Tu molaparakeba SegiZlia, ki batono, ruseTs marto moelaparakeo. mokled, roca ambob, rom ruseTTan erTi-erTze molaparakeba SeiZleba, es ukve saxelmwifo interesebis Ralatia! _ levan, opoziciaSi arsebul ganxeTqilebaze swored am konteqstSi gelaparakebiT, anu 20 ivniss, roca gavrilovi parlamentis Tavmjdomaris savarZelSi Ca- jda, didi saprotesto muxti iyo, magram es muxti TandaTan minelda. maqvs informacia, rom opozicia am muxtis minavlebas „evropelebs” abralebs da, metic, Cer- goleiSvils, romelic, Turme, mitingze gamomsvlelTa sias adgenda, bralic wauyenes. mokled, yvelaferi es gana, erT konteqst- Si ar unda ganvixiloT? _ gulwrfelad geubnebiT: im axalgazrdebma, romlebic sami Tve quCaSi idgnen, didi saqme gaakeTes! _ amaze arc me gekamaTebiT! _ ver davadastureb, rame ganxilvebi iyo Tu ara. isic calke sakiTxia, vinme sias adgenda Tu ara, magram es mniSvnelovani araa! Sei- Zleba, sxvadasxva mimarTulebaze 20 20 N30 (291) 1.10-07.10.2019 w.
294 69 77; qronikaqronika@gmail.com saqarTvelo~ `nacmoZraobas~? gansxvavebuli xedvebi gvaqvs, magram am axalgazrdebma, qarTvel xalxTan erTad, udidesi saqme gaakeTes. _ da es „udidesi saqme” ra aris? _ Tundac, proporciuli arCevnebi, anu am axalgazrdebma procesi garkveul donemde miiyvanes da amisTvis Zalian didi madloba. sxvaTa Soris, minda, rom es axalgazrdebi ivaniSvilis xelisuflebis gaSvebaSic CaerTon, amitom ar Sevdivar im SeTqmulebis TeoriaSi, rom, magaliTad, aqcia vinmes okupirebuli hqonda. ki batono, mesmis, rom am Temas sazogadoeba ganixilavs, magram amaze mniSvnelovani problemebi gvaqvs. bolos da bolos, oficialurad moZalade premieri dagviniSnes _ diax, filmis gadaRebac SeiZleba imaze, rom gaxaria moZalade damnaSavea, kerzaias mkvlelobidan dawyebuli xazaraZis ambiT damTavrebuli. ise, xazaraZeze SeiZleba, didi warmodgena ar maqvs, magram faqtia, rom es kaci Ss yofil ministrs pirdapir adebs xels da ambobs, rom masze Zaladobda. amas garda, gaxariam 20 ivnisis aqciaze Zala gamoiyena. mokled, saqarTvelos ruseTis mier arCeuli da gavrilov-putinis mier mowonebuli premieri hyavs, romelsac danaSaulebebi aqvs Cadenili da am dros cecxli opozicias gavuxsna da magaliTad, Tamar CergoleiSvili Sevafaso, romelsac, albaT, saxlSic ar afaseben, saintereso ar iqneba! sxvaTa Soris, CergoleiSvilma yvelaze metad TviTon icis, rom saintereso ar aris da amitom cdilobs, disonansi Semoitanos da amiT yuradReba miiqcios! _ levan, CergoleiSvilze saubris gagrZelebas arc me va- pireb, amitom, rasac gkiTxavT, pirdapir mipasuxeT: opoziciam midgoma xom ar unda Secvalos da, okupaciis paralelurad, sxva aqtualuri Temebic xom ar unda wa- moswios wina planze? iciT, amas ratom gekiTxebiT? _ gamokiTxve- bis mixedviT, teritoriuli mTlianobis sakiTxi ukana planzea gadasuli. _ samwuxaroa, rom es Tema minelda, rac saxelmwifo politikis bralicaa. adamianebs, ubralod, SiaT. ise, wina xelisuflebis dros teritoriuli mTlianoba nomer pirveli problema iyo, miuxedavad imisa, rom socialuri problemebi maSinac arsebobda, Tumca ara ase- Ti simZafriT. mokled, axla adamianebs pirveladi moxmarebis problemebi aqvT, rac SimSilsa da ekonomikas ukav- Sirdeba. ai, amis Semdeg modis teritoriuli mTlianobis problema. es, vimeoreb, saxelmwifos politikis bralia, anu adamianebi TviTgadarCenaze fiqroben! _ hoda, aqedan gamomdinare, opoziciam „mesijboqsi” xom ar unda Secvalos? _ adamianebis motyueba ar miyvars da vcdilob, gulwrfeli politikosi viyo, amitom opoziciis taqtikazec Riad getyviT: diax, opoziciis strategia bevri mimarTulebiT Sesacvlelia da amaze samuSaoa! opozicias, ra Tqma unda, bevri Secdoma hqonda. ìse, xazaraZeze SeiZleba, didi warmodgena ar maqvs, magram faqtia, rom es kaci Ss yofil ministrs pirdapir adebs xels da ambobs, rom masze Zaladobda. amas garda, gaxariam 20 ivnisis aqciaze Zala gamoiyena. mokled, saqarTvelos ruseTis mier arCeuli da gavrilov-putinis mier mowonebuli premieri hyavs, romelsac danaSaulebebi aqvs Cadenili da am dros cecxli opozicias gavuxsna da magaliTad, Tamar CergoleiSvili Sevafaso, romelsac, albaT, saxlSic ar afaseben, saintereso ar iqneba!~ _ mainc, ra Secdoma? _ magaliTad, SegveZlo, rom konkretul situaciaSi ufro moqnilad da sworad gvemoqmeda. sxvaTa Soris, me, rogorc opoziciis warmomadgeneli, am uTavmoyvareo xelisuflebis gamo pasuxismgeblobas vgrnob! _ xelisuflebis gamo pasuxismgeblobas Tqven ratom grZnobT? _ es upasuxismgeblo xelisufleba Cveni samSoblos interesebs yoveldRiurad azianebs da imazec, rom „ocneba” isev xelisuflebaSia, diax, pasuxismgeblobas vgrZnob, Tumca mec da Cemi kolegebic mzad varT, ufro efeqtianad vimuSaoT da es procesi swrafad davasruloT! xom vnaxeT, SewyalebebTan dakavSirebiT rac xdeba, magram gasakviri araa, radgan kriminalebTan garigebuli xelisufleba kriminalebTan iTanamSromlebs da es orjer ori oTxia! yvelafers Tavi rom davaneboT, Tavad ivaniSvilic kriminalia _ marto saydrisis afeTqeba da „gavrilovis Rames” gacemuli davalebebi rad Rirs! _ riT amtkicebT, rom 20 ivniss, aqciis daSlis dros, davalebebs ivaniSvili gascemda? _ daakvirdiT: igive proporciul arCevnebze premierma an sxva Tanamdebobis pirma ki ara, ivaniSvilma Tqva. _ diax, ase iyo, magram es, Cemi azriT, arcTu myari argumentia. ise, ambobT, es procesi droze unda dasruldeso da ra, 2020-is arCevnebs ar unda davelodoT? _ xelisufleba, nebismier SemTxvevaSi, arCevnebiT Seicvleba. sxvaTa Soris, xelisuflebam am wlebis ganmavlobaSi sityva „revoluciaze” xalxs iseTi gancda gauCina, rom es TiTqos katastrofaa, romelmac saxelmwifo SeiZleba, daangrios. _ revolucia kargi, marTlac, ar aris! _ ukacravad, magram is, rac somxeTSi moxda, revolucia iyo, romelic Semdeg arCevnebiT deklarirda! mokled, somxeTSi gansakuTebuli araferi momxdara da isic, rac moldovaSi moxda, revolucia iyo, riTac oligarqis mmarTveloba, praqtikuald, dasrulda. _ ukacravad, es ra SuaSia? _ xelisuflebis Sesacvlelad konstituciiT sxvadasxva berketia gaTvaliswinebuli, maT Soris, saxalxo aqciebi, rasac, SesaZloa, vadamdeli arCevnebi moyves! _ am msjelobaSi logika, cxa- dia, aris, magram somxeTis e. w. ès upasuxismgeblo xelisufleba Cveni samSoblos interesebs yoveldRiurad azianebs da imazec, rom òcneba~ isev xelisuflebaSia, diax, pasuxismgeblobas vgrZnob, Tumca mec da Cemi kolegebic mzad varT, ufro efeqtianad vimuSaoT da es procesi swrafad davasruloT! xom vnaxeT, SewyalebebTan dakavSirebiT rac xdeba, magram gasakviri araa, radgan kriminalebTan garigebuli xelisufleba kriminalebTan iTanamSromlebs da es orjer ori oTxia! yvelafers Tavi rom davaneboT, Tavad ivaniSvilic kriminalia - marto saydrisis afeTqeba da `gavrilovis Rames~ gacemuli davalebebi rad Rirs!~ revolucias paSiniani Caudga saT- aveSi, Cven ki paSiniani, anu iseTi opoziciuri lideri, visac xalxi upirobod gahyveba, ar gvyavs! _ paSiniani didi xnis politikosia, didi gza gaiara da, saboloo jamSi, is moxda, rac moxda, anu paSiniani cidan uceb ar Camovardnila! arCevnebis lodini, rom es aucileblad 2020-Si moxdeba, danaSaulia _ anu? _ 2020 wlis oqtombramde xelebi unda CamovuSvaT? _ ara! me, rogorc saqarTvelos moqalaqe, vgrnob, rom „ocnebis” xelisuflebaSi yofnis yoveli wami da wuTi problemaa, amitom unda vibrZoloT, rom „qarTuli ocnebis” xelisufleba rac SeiZleba, male damTavrdes da yvelaferi es, ra Tqma unda, arCevnebiT moxdes! _ levan, Tqveni survili gasagebia, magram yvelafers prag- matulad SevxedoT da miTxariT, xedavT sazogadoebis mzaobas, rom opozicias gahyves? _ marTalia, saprezidento arCevnebiT mTavroba ar icvleboda da es yvelam kargad icoda, Zaladobisa da teroris miuxedavad, opoziciam, praqtikulad, imdeni xma miiRo, 2016 wlis saprezidento arCevnebSi „ocnebas” sakonstitucio umravlesoba moutana, anu maSin „ocnebam” 800 aTasi xma aiRo, opoziciam ki gasuli wlis saprezidento arCevnebze 900 aTasze meti xma aiRo! mokled, ver dageTanxmebiT, rom sazogadoeba mzad araa. piriqiT, mgonia, rom sazogadoeba imaze metadac ki aris mzad, vidre, vTqvaT, opozicia iyo momzadebuli! aqedan gamomdinare, mniSvnelovania, rom opozicia mtkice da erTiani iyos! piradi dapirispireba da boRma unda gadavdoT. am gansxvavebebze saubari mas Semdeg SeiZleba, rac ivaniSvili xelisuflebaSi aRar iqneba! _ sxvaTa Soris, „ocnebis” xeli- suflebidan gaSveba, magaliTad, nino burjanaZesac surs, anu unda velodoT, rom am miznisTvis opoziciis yvela frTa gaerTiandeba? _ maxsovs, qalbatoni nino putinTan. memoriali yvavilebiTac Seamko. es usaSinelesi kadri iyo, romelic ar damaviwydeba! Sesabamisad, prorusul ZalebTan Tanam- Sromlobaze saubaric ki zedmetia! rac Seexeba prodasavlur Zalebs, mec, mixeil saakaSvilic da, saerTod, gaerTianebuli opozicia maTTan saTanamSromlod mzad varT! _ mamuka xazaraZesTanac iTanamSromlebT? sxvaTa Soris, mavanni xaZaraZesac, ivaniSvilis ms- gavsad, oligarqad miiCneven da amboben, rom qarTul politikaSi oligarqatis dro unda dasrul- des. aseve arsebobs mosazreba, rom xazaraZis politikaSi Semos- vla ivaniSvils aZlierebs. amaze ras ityviT, levan? _ xazaraZem pirdapir eTerSi konkretul kriminalze isaubra, anu Tqva, kabinetSi dagvibares da biznesze iZaladeso. _ mere? _ Tu gainteresebT, Cemi subieqturi damokidebuleba aseTia: xazaraZem, praqtikulad, aRiara, rom winasaarCevnod ivaniSvilTan danaSaulebriv garigebaSi Sevida. aqedan gamomdinare, maqvs safuZveli, rom xazaraZis mimarT skeptikurad viyo ganwyobili, magram mis gund- Si arian adamianebi, romlebTanac TanamSromloba, rig sakiTxebSi, ra Tqma unda, SesaZlebelia. Tu xazaraZe TamaSs iseve ar daiwyebs, rogorc, magaliTad, 2018 wels TamaSobda _ erTi xeliT masze, Turme, zewola xorcieldeboda, meore xeliT ki gamodioda da ambobda, biznesSi renesansis xanaao. mokled, imis Tqma minda, rom Tu am brZolaSi xazaraZe gulwrfeli iqneba, ra Tqma unda, mas- Tanac viTanamSromlebT! _ ise, levan gamoricxavT, rom bolo wuTs xazaraZem politikuri partiis Seqmna gadaifiqros da Tqvas, mTel Cems finansur da adamianur resurss „evropul saqarTvelos” movaxmaro? sxvaTa Soris, am versias kuluarebSi ukve aqtiurad ganixilaven... _ xazaraZis nacvlad ver gipasuxebT, Tumca politikaSi arafers gamovricxav! magaliTad, 2013- 2014 wels CemTvis vinmes rom eTqva, mova dro da eka beselias mimarT solidaruli iqnebio, gamecineboda, Tumca axla es moxda. mokled, politikaSi varT da arafers gamovricxav! yvelaferi im SemTxvevaSi unda daviviwyoT, Tu es Cveni samSoblos interesebs sWirdeba, Tumca adamianebis grZnobebiT manipulirebis saSualeba aravis unda mivceT! yovel SemTxvevaSi, me ase var! _ beselias mimarT ki xarT solidaruli, magram „ocnebis” qmedebebze pasuxismgebloba, gana, masac ar ekisreba? _ ra Tqma unda, ekisreba! am adamians moraluri terori mouwyves da mis mimarT solidaruli am kuTxiT var, Tumca misi politikuri qmedebebisa da saqcielis solidaruli verasodes viqnebi, radgan im rusuli xelisuflebisa da sasamarTlo sistemis Tanamonawilea, romelic ivaniSvilma Camoayaliba! 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