hearing

Senator SCHWEIKER. What was the function or purpose of that sectionthat you headed?Dr. GOLDMAN. To provide support for the other parts of the division.Senator SCHWEIKER. Where in the chain of command would that putyou in relation to Dr. Gottlieb?Dr. GOLDMAN. Pretty far down the line.Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, I would just like to ask you afew questions. We appreciate your frankness and candor with the committee,and we realize this is a very difficult area to go into. I am notquite clear on two matters that were raised earlier. First, were the safehouses we were talking about here used on occasion by the prostitutesyou referred to?Mr. GITTINGER. I really have not the slightest idea.Senator SCHWEIKER. Were the prostitutes used in any way to slipthe customers drugs for observation purposes?Mr. GrTiNGER. Not to my direct knowledge.Senator SCHWEIKER. Would you have been in a position to know theanswer to either of these questions?Mr. GITTINGER. May I say, probably not, and may I make an asideto explain a little bit of this, please, sir?Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, a moment ago you mentionedbrainwashing techniques, as one area that you had, I guess, done somework in. How would you characterize the state of the art of brainwashingtoday? Who has the most expertise in this field, and who isor is not doing it in terms of other governments?During the Korean war there was a lot of serious discussion aboutbrainwashing techniques being used by the North Koreans, and I aminterested in finding out what the state of the art is today, as you see it.Mr. GITTINGER. Well, of course, there has been a great deal of workon this, and there is still a great deal of controversy. I can tell you thatas far as I knew, by 1961, 1962, it was at least proven to my satisfactionthat brainwashing, so called, is some kind of an esoteric devicewhere drugs or mind-altering kinds of conditions and so forth wereused, did not exist even though "The Manchurian Candidate" as amovie really set us back a long time, because it made something impossiblelook plausible. Do you follow what I mean ? But by 1962 and1963, the general idea that we were able to come up with is that brainwashingwas largely a process of isolating a human being, keepinghim out of contact, putting him under long stress in relationship tointerviewing and interrogation, and that they could produce anychange that way without having to resort to any kind of esotericmeans.Senator SCHWEIKER. Are there ways that we can ascertain this froma distance when we see a captive prisoner either go on television, ina photograph, or at a press conference? In other words, are there certainsigns that you have learned to recognize from your technicalbackground, to tell when brainwashing has occurred? Or is that verydifficult to do?Mr. GITTINGER. It is difficult to do. I think it is posible now in termsof looking at a picture of somebody who has been in enemy hands fora long period of time. We can get some pretty good ideas of what kindof circumstances he has been under, if that is what you mean.