Stomp Off 1001 - Dickbaker.org

Rhodes: "’Get It Right’ = ‘Do What Ory Say’ =‘Gatemouth.’ I think it’s really a New Orleansfolk melody." --2>2013 reassessment:Rec. New Orleans Wanderers, 7/13/26,Columbia 698-D, DB-2860, BF-417, CQ-2239,DZ-789, GN-5086, GNS-5092, M-199, et al.(what the hell?!)Can be heard athttp://dickbaker.org/stompoff/gate_mouth--nowanderers.mp3Copyright entry is:Gate mouth; melody, by L. Armstrong. © 1c. July 19, 1926; E 643154; Louis Armstrong,Chicago.Well, the Columbia 698-D original 78 doesindeed credit Louis Armstrong, but everybodyseems to agree that it’s really Lil. But why?See this posting by John Gill to the DJML in2011:Many years ago while playing a gig inWashington DC, I made several trips to TheLibrary of Congress and turned up manyinteresting”"Classic” jazz lead sheets. Thesewere filed for copyright purposes. I foundmany compositions by Armstrong, Oliver,Ory, Lil Hardin, etc.Anyway, the other day I decided to puttogether a simple lead sheet arrangement ofthe tune “Gate Mouth,” and rememberingthat it was one of the titles I found at theLibrary of Congress I thought I would seehow it compared to the recording done byThe New Orleans Boot Blacks back in July1926 [he must have mean N.O. Wanderers,Ed.]. First of all the lead sheet is in F concertand the recording is in Eb. But the mostinteresting thing is that in the B section thereare an extra 4 bars of breaks that do notappear on the recording. So I thought thatmight be something that would intrest someof you. I intend to use the extra 4 bars on myleadsheet.The composer is listed as Louis Armstrong(his hand writing) and copyrighted Jul 19,1926. The main part of the song is probablyan old New Orleans theme that had beenfloating around as it appears in other placesas “Do What Ory Say” by Kid Ory and“Mama’s Baby Boy” by Johnny St. Cyr. TheSt. Cyr version also sports a different verse.So that’s it. There's always something newto learn.So both the lead sheet submitted with thecopyright registration and the original 78 creditLouis Armstrong, while the copyrightregistration itself credits L. Armstrong. So whyin the world do most recordings credit Lilrather than Louis? Possibly because there areindeed some record labels that credit eitherjust Armstrong or L. Armstrong as composersof tunes that we know Lil wrote, presumably totrade on the more famous name of Louis.Whatever else we do, we change thecomposer here from Lil to Louis (unless ourpanel of experts have more to contribute). Butwe still must resolve whether this is justanother steal from/version of Ory’s “Do WhatOry Say.” And before we do that, let’sconsider “Get It Right.”But we must also ask why Lil/Louis had thegall to steal this melody from their old friendKid Ory. Perhaps they felt that since Oryhadn’t written it down, copyrighted it, orrecorded it, AND that Clarence Williams hadalready stolen it once, it was fair game.Get It Right (traditional)Down Home JB 11992013 revisit:Rec. Henry “Kid” Rena’s JB, 8/21/40, Delta807. The label does indeed say “Traditional”for composer, and there’s no copyright entryin books for 1940-41. Most later bands knowit from the 1946 recording by Lu WattersYBJB, also credited to traditional. The DownHome JB recording can be heard athttp://dickbaker.org/stompoff/sos1199--getitright.mp3Robbie Rhodes notes,Regarding "Get It Right", Kid Rena's JazzBand recording plays only the familiarchorus of "Gate Mouth". I don't hear a verse.What is the source of the verse played bythe Down Home Jazz Band on SOS 1199?It's the same melody heard in the verse ofTurk Murphy's "Little John's Rag" played bySouth Frisco Jazz Band on SOS 1240.And John Gill response:Regarding the verse to "Get It Right", TurkMurphy told me that when the Watters bandstarted playing "Get It Right" it was decidedthat the tune was too short so Turk wrote anoriginal verse for it. A live recording doesexist of the Watters band playing "Get ItRight" with the verse. Turk then took it backand used it for the first strain of his composition"Little John's Rag". During my tenurewith Turk's band we did play "Get It Right"without the verse.And finally,Mamma’s Baby Boy (Johnny St. Cyr–Armand J. Piron)Swedish Jazz Kings 1188< We had Mama’s, and composers St. Cyr,Piron & Clarence Williams. Our source wasLord’s Clarence Williams bookBUT the sheet music shows it as Mamma.ASM, 1917, Williams & Piron; by John A. St.Cyr & Armand J. Piron.This recording can be heard athttp://dickbaker.org/stompoff/sos1188--mammasbabyboy.mp3Robbie Rhodes on Mamma’s Baby Boy:Consider the 1917 song "Mamma's BabyBoy" credited to Johnny St. Cyr and A. J.Piron. As I recall, the words of the chorusare something close toBecause he's Mamma's baby boy____He's his Papa's pride and joy___.Those big, round vowels would be sungby a barrel-chested vaudeville singer withlots of wind power. The version by SwedishJazz Kings suffers from lack of wind forsustained notes.In complete contrast is the "stop time"dance treatment of "Do What Ory Say" -- forbreak dancing!!! Somewhere in between isthe 1926 recording of "Gate Mouth."The verse of "Mamma's Baby Boy" alsohas words, and I feel that most of the creditfor the song belongs to St. Cyr. The songhas a similar feel to St. Cyr's "Messin'Around" (Doc Cook Orch.).The verse of "Get It Right" is quite different,and it seems to be the same as the verse of"Little John's Rag" by Turk Murphy.SO THERE YOU HAVE IT. Four tunes that arevery similar. To me, as a nonmusician, GateMouth and Do What Ory Say sound quitealike. Mamma’s Baby Boy and Get It Righthave different intros, but end up with the sametheme as the previous two.The big question is this: Are they enoughalike that we should call them the same tune,with notes to explain all the title/composercredit/copyright differences?THE ANSWER: A RESOUNDING NO!I sent all the above to John Gill, RobbieRhodes, Bill Haesler, Dave Robinson, and TexWyndham, mainly because I thought the KidOry interview might serve as some sort ofRosetta Stone on the subject, but all thesefolks responded with variations on the samefew themes:(a) many such riffs/melodies/themes werefloating around long before the recording eraand available to be picked up and used. Theyhave no precise owner.(b) In this case, as in most, there arediscernible differences that can be claimed asthe new composer’s contribution.(c) Don’t go down this road or it’ll make younuts and you’ll never finish the index. Thispoint made most strongly by Tex Wyndham,who directed me to his “Common Themes,”