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Q: Was this an American movement more than a Ukrainian movement, would you say?
MILLER: No, I think it was an émigré movement. The émigrés from the captive nations
were often led by intellectuals, they believed very fiercely that their ethnic groups had
been persecuted and that they had been forced out of their homeland. They always wanted
to return one day. The Ukrainian émigrés who were most active in the Captive Nations
Movement were from western Ukraine, but not entirely. It was an intellectual movement.
They had influence in Congress, certainly in the context of the Cold War, it was a useful
policy instrument, and it was used as such. I don't think it was ever seen as an alternative
to the Soviet Union. While it was always a hope, I don't think anyone in the policy world
foresaw the collapse of the Soviet Union. Some parts of our government used the émigré
movements as a way of undermining the Soviet Union. Attempts were made, as you
know, in the '20s and '30s that were dismal failures, and there were rollback operations in
1950 which were also disastrous failures. I personally learned a lot about Ukrainian
history from the individual experiences of the émigré groups here, after I was nominated.
Q: I'd like to go back prior to that, the story, you're back in Moscow. What about the
'stans. I know, my one experience with Kyrgyzstan, which had obviously gotten more
from the Soviet Union than they'd given to the Soviet Union, and there must have been
others that really were very reluctant to get involved in the splitting up. Was this
happening?
MILLER: It was happening, but my knowledge and understanding of the “stans” was
through human rights groups. There were many human rights issues to be concerned
about. The nuclear scientists, who were friends and associates of Sakharov and his group,
were of the opinion that the nuclear testing sites which were in Kazakhstan were
environmentally dangerous and were of great concern worldwide, but particularly to the
people Kazakhstan. I had met a number of intellectuals and poets from Kazakhstan that
were in the last Supreme Soviet. They were making the case for the removal of the
dangerous nuclear weapons and nuclear waste and a halt to the repression and intolerance
of native peoples. This kind of concern was evident in all of the ethnic and national
groups throughout the Soviet Union, so there was nothing distinctive about that.
I learned much about Tajikistan, because, of course, I speak Persian. Tajik and Persian are
very similar. I found them a rather dramatic people. Their leaders included filmmakers
and other intellectuals and scientists who were very active in Moscow and made the case
for the plight of the Tajiks and brought attention to their quarrels with Uzbeks. The
driving issues seemed to be over tribal control rather than ideological, in many respects.
While I was generally aware of what was going on throughout the Soviet Union, because
of my knowledge of what was going in the parliament and in the circles of intellectuals,
my real focus was the ferment in Moscow.
Q: Gorbachev is cavalierly dismissed by Yeltsin. How did Yeltsin work with your group,
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