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CW: The Occupy movement being <strong>the</strong> major public response to a 30<br />

year class war against poor and working people, not just in <strong>the</strong> American<br />

Empire but around <strong>the</strong> world, that to have this space – this space has <strong>of</strong><br />

course been consecrated by <strong>the</strong> Malcolm X’s <strong>of</strong> <strong>the</strong> world, <strong>the</strong> Desmond<br />

Tutus, and so many o<strong>the</strong>rs who have come through here – it has a certain<br />

visibility, an international form, and so I figured it would be right.<br />

SR: There have been some critiques <strong>of</strong> Occupy Wall Street from<br />

<strong>the</strong> Left: for example, that it failed to significantly engage with <strong>the</strong><br />

labour movement and trade unions in <strong>the</strong> US or that its radically<br />

decentralized structure made it very difficult to arrive at decisions to<br />

accomplish particular objectives. And so moving forward, what are<br />

<strong>the</strong> lessons that we, as participants in Occupy and supporters <strong>of</strong> it,<br />

can learn from <strong>the</strong> movement?<br />

CW: I think we have to draw a distinction between social motion and<br />

social movements. Social movements are very rare because <strong>the</strong>y require a<br />

sophisticated level <strong>of</strong> organization, <strong>of</strong> leadership, <strong>of</strong> persons who are<br />

highly courageous and willing to actually pay a price. Social motion is<br />

very important because it helps shape <strong>the</strong> climate <strong>of</strong> opinion and that’s<br />

exactly what <strong>the</strong> Occupy motion has been all about – it helps shape <strong>the</strong><br />

climate <strong>of</strong> opinion. But it was in many ways so heterogeneous, so diverse<br />

in all <strong>of</strong> its various voices and perspectives. What I loved about it was that<br />

<strong>the</strong>re was a lot <strong>of</strong> respect. It wasn’t dogmatic, imposed from above,<br />

pr<strong>of</strong>essional revolutionaries coming in with Truth (with a capital ‘T’) and<br />

imposing it on everybody. That’s what we were wrestling with in <strong>the</strong> 60’s<br />

and 70’s. You didn’t have that kind <strong>of</strong> thing this time around – and that<br />

was very important.<br />

On <strong>the</strong> o<strong>the</strong>r hand, it was difficult to sustain it. But I think that <strong>the</strong><br />

next wave <strong>of</strong> social activism will be among young people and it’s going to<br />

take a variety <strong>of</strong> different forms. I’m old school so I have to learn from<br />

young people – for example, about social networking to forms <strong>of</strong><br />

democratic expression that I haven’t even thought <strong>of</strong> in that regard. I have<br />

a respect for <strong>the</strong> anarchists precisely because – though I’m not one – <strong>the</strong>y<br />

have a powerful critique <strong>of</strong> concentration <strong>of</strong> power in <strong>the</strong> nation-state. And<br />

as a black man in America dealing with <strong>the</strong> repressive apparatus, you live

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