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scenaI.G.: Nu….S.P.: Interesant…I.G.: Sînt lucruri din anii ’70, dar reluate în ’90…S.P.: Reprezintæ performance-uri?I.G.: Nu, sînt documente pe care le-am gæsit, poze mici pe care le-am mærit…S.P.: Øi unde le-afli gæsit?I.G.: La o familie…S.P.: Deci este oarecum o familie arhetipalæ?I.G.: Nu, cel puflin nu voiam sæ reprezint valorile familiale, de fapt mi se pæreau foartekitsch…M.C.: Iniflial erau negative gæsite, care au fost mærite la format mare, aøa este?I.G.: Nu erau negative, erau poze mici cu chenar care au fost refotografiate…H.U.O.: Afli putea sæ îmi vorbifli de contextul în care afli realizat aceste lucruri, adicæcel al anilor ’60 øi începutul anilor ’70? Aveafli informaflii despre ce se fæcea pe altescene artistice, de exemplu, ce se întîmpla la Zagreb, cu Gorgona, dar øi la Paris,New York? Ce informaflii aveafli la dispoziflie?I.G.: Eram cæsætorit cu o muzeografæ de la Muzeul de Artæ de aici, din Bucureøti.Iar la muzeu exista o bibliotecæ ce cuprindea cele mai recente cataloage. Aøa încîtam putut afla multe lucruri. De exemplu, Boltanski, Annette Messager… În fine,tofli artiøtii din generaflia mea pe care i-am întîlnit ulterior la Paris… Deci dispuneamde informaflie, da…M.C.: Øi l-afli cunoscut øi pe Cadere…H.U.O.: În ce relaflii erafli cu el?I.G.: Era bun prieten cu fratele meu. Øi au fost în corespondenflæ pînæ la moarteasa. Eu îl întîlnisem, la Paris, în ’77, din întîmplare, într-o galerie în care am intrat øiam væzut celebrul sæu baston. Întîmplarea face ca øi el sæ fi fost atunci acolo. Amînceput o conversaflie, deoarece ne øtiam deja puflin øi, uite, aøa a început totul. Maitîrziu, am primit premiul André Cadere din partea unei asociaflii franco-române…S.P.: Mergeafli la Paris pe vremea aceea? Adicæ puteafli cælætori færæ probleme?I.G.: Oh nu, dimpotrivæ! Era foarte dificil. De fapt, am profitat de cutremurul depæmînt! (Rîde.)S.P. & H.U.O.: (Rîsete.)H.U.O.: Ah da, marele cutremur din ’77.I.G.: Da, cu ocazia cutremurului s-a produs, în flaræ, o relaxare a controlului ieøirilorøi intrærilor, deoarece erau mulfli rænifli care mergeau la îngrijiri în stræinætate. Îngeneral, se cæuta ajutor în stræinætate. Cu aceastæ ocazie deci, am reuøit øi eu sæ obflinun paøaport, ceea ce, în vremuri normale, era foarte dificil…M.C.: Dar chiar øi cu paøaport ræmînea dificil. Paøaportul nu dædea dreptul decît lao øedere foarte scurtæ în stræinætate øi era voie sæ ieøi din flaræ doar o datæ pe an…S.P.: Înfleleg.I.G.: În timpul acestei cælætorii m-am dus în Elveflia øi apoi la Paris… Øi mi s-a întîmplatsæ fiu întrebat de ce m-am întors… Dar, ce vrefli… Mæ simfleam atît de supravegheat,încît îmi era teamæ sæ ræmîn… Ba chiar am încercat puflin sæ îmi ameliorezrelaflia cu cenzura, am mers pînæ acolo încît am fæcut portrete cu Ceauøescu…S.P.: Ah da?M.C.: Da. Era un fel de comandæ…S.P.: Dar le-afli fæcut sau afli refuzat?M.C.: Le-a fæcut, dar într-o manieræ subversivæ, flin sæ precizez. Ceea ce explicæ,de altfel, faptul cæ au fost refuzate.H.U.O.: Credefli cæ mai avefli exemplare din aceste portrete?I.G.: Nu, am doar catalogul…M.C.: Da, fiindcæ nu a avut voie sæ le pæstreze.I.G.: But he was teaching drawing and engraving and then he turnedto painting. He has become a known painter...H.U.O.: His name is also Grigorescu?I.G.: Yes, Octav Grigorescu, but he passed away a long time ago...he had tremendous influence over me as he was older than me...He was something of a father for me art-wise...H.U.O.: Can we see his painting in Bucharest? Or are there any catalogsabout his painting?I.G.: Yes there are some in the archives at CIAC, International ContemporaryArt Center. Probably at the museum that is being openedtoday and also at the National Theatre at the documentation services.I should have a book here too...H.U.O.: I wanted to ask you something in connection to what RuxandraBalaci has written here: what is this Apotheotic destructionistvision and I didn’t quite understand if it started from a text or somethingelse? Mircea, do you know anything about that?M.C.: I think it was for the Venice Biennial, for the Romanian pavilionin 1997. At least, that’s what I think.S.P.: But maybe we can ask him directly...M.C.: Yes but he wants to show us something...(Ion Grigorescu looks for documents)M.C.: Yes. This is very interesting because it shows how he works onlarge formats, he had to work at night, on little pieces, with pliers.These are really the first large prints...S.P.: So this is a series of photos. But is it colored?I.G.: Yes in oil paint...S.P.: Why don’t you protect these things? Haven’t you done anythingto preserve them?I.G.: No....S.P.: Interesting...I.G.: They are from the ’70s but revisited in the ’90s...S.P.: And performances?I.G.: No these are documents that I have found, little things that I’veenlarged...S.P.: And where did you find them?I.G.: In a family...S.P.: So it’s an archetypal family?I.G.: No, at least I didn’t want to represent the family values, in fact,I found them very kitsch...M.C.: At the beginning they were found negatives that have beenenlarged, weren’t they?I.G.: They were not negatives but little photos with a frame that havebeen re-photographed...H.U.O.: Can you tell me about the context you were working in onthis things, I mean the context of the ’60s and the beginning of the’70s? Did you have any information about what was happening onother artistic scenes, for example in Zagreb, with Gorgona, but alsoin Paris, New York? What kind of information did you have access to?I.G.: I was married to a museographer at the Art Museum here inBucharest. And at the museum there was a library with the latestpossible catalogs. This is how I was aware of some things that wenton; for instance Boltanski, Annette Messager... Well, all the artists ofmy generation that I met later in Paris... So, yes, I had information...M.C.: And you have also known Cadere...H.U.O.: What were your relations with him?I.G.: He was my brother’s good friend. And there was some exchangeof letters until his death. I had met him in 1977 in Paris,by chance, in a gallery where I entered and saw his famous bâton.And it so happened that he was also there. We started a conversationbecause we were acquainted and that’s how it all started.And later I received the André Cadere prize from a French-Romanian association...S.P.: You went to Paris in those times? So you had no trouble traveling?I.G.: Oh no, on the contrary! It was very difficult. In fact I took advantageof the earthquake! (Laughter.)59