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Hans Ulrich Obrist, Suzanne Pagé, Ion Grigorescu, photo: Mircea CantorH.U.O.: Øi cum l-afli înfæfliøat pe Ceauøescu? Într-o manieræ nonconformistæ?I.G.: Eram cunoscut drept cineva care încearcæ sæ transmitæ anumite lucruri prinimagini. Deci cenzura era foarte atentæ la activitatea mea! Øi au dorit cu orice preflsæ gæseascæ ceva în portretele care nu corespundeau. De exemplu, am fæcut untriplu portret al lui Ceauøescu, pe care l-au refuzat, nu doreau decît unul din ele.Dar nici acela nu corespundea. Îl reprezentasem fæcînd acel gest bine-cunoscut princare distrugea cartiere pentru „ctitorii“. Øi mi s-au adus critici pentru felul în care îipictasem mîna! Era, dupæ ei, „prea realæ“, umflatæ, flascæ… Mi-au spus cæ nu îl reprezentasempotrivit adeværului!H.U.O. & S.P.: (Rîsete.)I.G.: Dar nu îl væzusem niciodatæ pe viu! Pictam dupæ televizor øi mi-l imaginam.Trebuia sæ îl reprezint dupæ fotografii mici, în care detaliile erau invizibile. Deci l-ampictat din imaginaflie: cu venele de pe faflæ vizibile, un pic de cuperozæ… Øi mi s-aspus cæ era prea „realist“…H.U.O.: Existæ alte documente pe care le-am putea vedea? Fotografii? Ceva legatde acfliuni, poate?M.C.: A mai fæcut øi un film în care pune în scenæ discursul dictatorului… Væ poatepovesti… E un performance din anii ’70…I.G.: Dar e ceva foarte cunoscut…M.C.: Eu øtiu, dar dînøii poate cæ nu cunosc…I.G.: Am de jucat douæ roluri, al meu øi al preøedintelui, øi trebuie sæ redactez celedouæ discursuri. Observasem cæ existæ o oarecare asemænare între fiul lui Ceauøescu,Nicu, øi mine…S.P.: E mai degrabæ dezagreabil! (Rîde.)I.G.: Da. (Rîde.) Dar trebuie adæugat cæ tatæl meu era oltean…M.C.: Oltenia e sudul României, acolo s-a næscut øi Brâncuøi…I.G.: Da. Iar nevasta lui Ceauøescu era øi ea din aceeaøi regiune. Din punct de vedereanatomic se puteau gæsi asemænæri. Sînt generaflii de flærani øi existæ anumite træsæturide fizionomie care se repetæ… Aici sînt lucruri din anii ’70, pe care le-am reluatpentru o expoziflie din 1997 la muzeul din Bucureøti.M.C.: Ceea ce este interesant în acest context e cæ el a lucrat mult cu aparatul foto,fæcînd multe autoportrete, un fel de autoperformance, øi deseori acasæ la el, færæpublic…S.P. & H.U.O.: (Laughter.)H.U.O.: Oh, yes, the great earthquake from 1977.I.G.: Yes, on that occasion, there was some lenience in the bordercontrol because there were many injured people who went abroadfor healthcare. Generally, people were seeking for assistance abroad.So this is how I managed to get a passport, which, in normal times,was a very difficult thing to do...M.C.: But even with a passport things were difficult. The passportgranted the right to stay abroad a very short time and usually onewas allowed to get out of the country only once a year...S.P.: Yes, I see.I.G.: During this trip I went to Switzerland and then to Paris... Peopleoften asked me why I came back... What can I say?... I felt so undersurveillance that I was afraid not to come back... I even tried to geton better terms with the censorship, I even made some portraits ofCeauøescu...S.P.: Really?M.C.: Yes. It was a kind of order...S.P.: But did you do it or did you refuse it?M.C.: He did it but in a quite subversive manner, I have to say.And that explains why the portraits were refused.H.U.O.: Do you have some of those portraits left?I.G.: No, I only have the catalog...M.C.: Yes, he was not allowed to keep them.H.U.O.: And how did you portray Ceauøescu? In a nonconformistmanner?I.G.: I used to be known as someone who tries to put things in theimages. So the censorship was paying a lot of attention to my work!And they wanted to find something inadequate in the portraits at allcosts. For example, I made a triple portrait of Ceauøescu and theydidn’t want them, they only wanted one of them. But even that onewasn’t right. I represented him making that famous gesture wavinghis hand that destroyed neighborhoods for his grand constructions.And I was criticized about the way I’ve painted the hand! Accordingto them, it was “too real”, swollen, flabby... They told me I haven’trepresented him with truth!H.U.O.& S.P.: (Laughter.)I.G.: But I’ve never seen him in the flesh! I was doing it after the TVand I imagined him. I had to represent him from small imageswherein the details were invisible. So I painted him from my imagination:with apparent veins on the face and blotches... And they toldme it was too “realistic”...H.U.O.: Are there any other documents that we can see? Photos?Things connected to the actions maybe?M.C.: He has also made a film where he brings to stage the dictator’sspeech... He can narrate it... It’s a performance from the ’70s...I.G.: Yes, but it is something very well known...M.C.: I know but maybe they don’t know...I.G.: I have to play both roles, mine and the president’s and bothspeeches need to be drafted. I had noticed that there was someresemblance between Ceauøescu’s son, Nicu, and myself...S.P.: That’s rather annoying! (Laughter.)I.G.: Yes. (Laughter.) But it was because my father was born in Oltenia...M.C.: Oltenia is the south of Romania, Brancusi was born there...I.G.: Yes. And Ceauøescu’s wife was from this region. From ananatomical viewpoint some resemblance could be found. There weregenerations of peasants and some physiognomic features are recurrent...Here are some things from the ’70s that I revisited for an exhibitionat the Bucharest museum in 1997.M.C.: The interesting thing in the context is the fact that he usedto work a lot with the photo camera, he makes a lot of self-portraits,sort of auto-performances, and often at his place not in public...S.P.: And what is this?I.G.: It’s from the ’90s, it is a performance in a synagogue whereI delivered a speech on the issue of churches and synagogues.60